1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:14,302 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:15,022 --> 00:00:18,542 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waterers. 3 00:00:18,662 --> 00:00:25,102 Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on it's October twenty thirteen in 4 00:00:25,182 --> 00:00:28,822 Speaker 2: Dublin Island and two officers doing their rounds spotted dis 5 00:00:28,902 --> 00:00:32,982 Speaker 2: stressed and confused young girl wandering outside the General post Office, 6 00:00:33,462 --> 00:00:37,022 Speaker 2: a huge building in the city's main thoroughfare. She's crying 7 00:00:37,702 --> 00:00:41,142 Speaker 2: and appears lost and bewildered. She doesn't speak to them 8 00:00:41,142 --> 00:00:44,342 Speaker 2: at all. Instead, she uses her fingers to show them 9 00:00:44,382 --> 00:00:47,902 Speaker 2: she's fourteen years old. They take her to a nearby 10 00:00:47,942 --> 00:00:50,022 Speaker 2: children's hospital as they try to work out who she 11 00:00:50,182 --> 00:00:53,342 Speaker 2: is and where she came from. Scrunched in a ball 12 00:00:53,382 --> 00:00:56,502 Speaker 2: with her knees to her chest, the teenager doesn't cooperate 13 00:00:56,542 --> 00:01:00,422 Speaker 2: with any medical examination. Instead, she draws on a piece 14 00:01:00,462 --> 00:01:05,622 Speaker 2: of paper an aeroplane across a gun. Perhaps she's been 15 00:01:05,662 --> 00:01:09,702 Speaker 2: sex trafficked. The local media muses as police struggle to 16 00:01:09,702 --> 00:01:13,422 Speaker 2: identify her, and the media interest in the mystery girl grows. 17 00:01:14,902 --> 00:01:18,022 Speaker 2: As a month drags by, police make the decision to 18 00:01:18,062 --> 00:01:22,142 Speaker 2: release her photo to the public. They are immediately inundated 19 00:01:22,662 --> 00:01:29,862 Speaker 2: with phone calls from Australia. This is not a vulnerable 20 00:01:29,942 --> 00:01:32,982 Speaker 2: fourteen year old in a state of distress. The woman 21 00:01:33,062 --> 00:01:36,302 Speaker 2: in the Dublin hospital bed is actually a twenty five 22 00:01:36,382 --> 00:01:40,982 Speaker 2: year old woman called Samantha as a Party, and she's 23 00:01:41,022 --> 00:01:48,822 Speaker 2: a serial con woman. I'm Jimmy Bath and this is 24 00:01:48,862 --> 00:01:53,222 Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring the world's most 25 00:01:53,262 --> 00:01:56,342 Speaker 2: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the 26 00:01:56,382 --> 00:01:59,902 Speaker 2: most about them. Her name was Emily and she was 27 00:01:59,942 --> 00:02:03,262 Speaker 2: a Russian gymnast. Her name was Anika. She was on 28 00:02:03,302 --> 00:02:07,262 Speaker 2: the run and her parents were international spies. Her name 29 00:02:07,342 --> 00:02:10,182 Speaker 2: was Harper and she was a seventeen year old o pair. 30 00:02:11,182 --> 00:02:14,022 Speaker 2: Her name was Coco and she worked for Elite Model 31 00:02:14,062 --> 00:02:18,182 Speaker 2: Management in New York. Samantha as a Party is very 32 00:02:18,262 --> 00:02:22,462 Speaker 2: good at telling lies and has lured hundreds of unsuspecting 33 00:02:22,502 --> 00:02:25,942 Speaker 2: people into her web. It's unclear why she does it. 34 00:02:26,582 --> 00:02:29,462 Speaker 2: She doesn't financially gain anything from most of her victims. 35 00:02:30,222 --> 00:02:34,262 Speaker 2: Sometimes she takes their identities, but mostly she just leaves 36 00:02:34,262 --> 00:02:39,982 Speaker 2: the people she tricks emotionally broken, feeling a mixture of confusion, shame, guilt, 37 00:02:40,222 --> 00:02:44,782 Speaker 2: and sadness for the lies they believed. Over the last 38 00:02:44,862 --> 00:02:49,422 Speaker 2: fifteen years, Samantha has faced more than one hundred criminal charges. 39 00:02:50,182 --> 00:02:54,022 Speaker 2: She has fifty five convictions worldwide, and she doesn't appear 40 00:02:54,022 --> 00:02:57,662 Speaker 2: to be stopping. She doesn't appear to be able to stop. 41 00:02:58,262 --> 00:03:02,102 Speaker 2: We know she has at least seventy five different aliases. 42 00:03:03,102 --> 00:03:06,782 Speaker 2: Paula Bycroft from CJZ Productions is the executive producer of 43 00:03:06,822 --> 00:03:10,422 Speaker 2: the Australian documentary series con Girl, which details the life 44 00:03:10,582 --> 00:03:14,102 Speaker 2: and crimes of Samantha. As a party, Paula joins us, now, 45 00:03:15,742 --> 00:03:19,062 Speaker 2: do we know much about her origin story? She's obviously Australian. 46 00:03:19,662 --> 00:03:20,942 Speaker 2: What other details do we have? 47 00:03:21,462 --> 00:03:24,102 Speaker 3: We know that she was born in Sydney. She grew 48 00:03:24,142 --> 00:03:26,822 Speaker 3: up in Campbelltown in western Sydney and she went to 49 00:03:26,902 --> 00:03:31,062 Speaker 3: high school there. It's quite hazy the actual details of 50 00:03:31,102 --> 00:03:35,342 Speaker 3: her upbringing, but there was definitely there's indications that she 51 00:03:35,422 --> 00:03:37,862 Speaker 3: might have had issues as a child which might have 52 00:03:37,942 --> 00:03:40,542 Speaker 3: sparked the way she behaved in later life. 53 00:03:40,822 --> 00:03:45,582 Speaker 2: You've produced a series called con Girl about Samantha. How 54 00:03:45,622 --> 00:03:49,742 Speaker 2: hard was it to unravel the extent of her lies 55 00:03:49,982 --> 00:03:52,182 Speaker 2: and kind of try and put it on screen? 56 00:03:52,822 --> 00:03:56,182 Speaker 3: It took us two years to develop the story. A 57 00:03:56,222 --> 00:03:58,742 Speaker 3: producer called Lexie Landsman came to us with the idea 58 00:03:58,822 --> 00:04:00,902 Speaker 3: and it was just the kernel of a story then, 59 00:04:01,542 --> 00:04:04,622 Speaker 3: but we thought it sounded like an interesting and intriguing story, 60 00:04:04,662 --> 00:04:06,982 Speaker 3: And as we dug deeper and deeper into the story, 61 00:04:07,062 --> 00:04:11,102 Speaker 3: we were absolutely astounded at the number of alists she had, 62 00:04:11,742 --> 00:04:14,622 Speaker 3: the number of people she had duped, and really the 63 00:04:14,942 --> 00:04:17,262 Speaker 3: extent of the trauma of some of the victims. So 64 00:04:17,502 --> 00:04:21,942 Speaker 3: we actually took at least a year to find victims 65 00:04:21,942 --> 00:04:24,982 Speaker 3: who would speak to us, and also victims who were 66 00:04:25,022 --> 00:04:29,022 Speaker 3: comfortable enough with our producers to open up. The problem 67 00:04:29,102 --> 00:04:30,942 Speaker 3: with being the victim of a con is that you 68 00:04:30,982 --> 00:04:33,542 Speaker 3: lose trust in everyone, and that was the hardest part 69 00:04:33,622 --> 00:04:36,342 Speaker 3: for all of the victims to agree to trust us 70 00:04:36,742 --> 00:04:37,702 Speaker 3: to tell their story. 71 00:04:38,262 --> 00:04:40,142 Speaker 2: I also noticed, even in the ones that did speak 72 00:04:40,182 --> 00:04:42,142 Speaker 2: to you, there was a lot of shame, like they 73 00:04:42,182 --> 00:04:45,822 Speaker 2: felt quite shameful that they'd fallen for her tricks. 74 00:04:46,062 --> 00:04:46,382 Speaker 1: Yeah. 75 00:04:46,422 --> 00:04:49,742 Speaker 3: I think that's the hardest thing for anyone who's the 76 00:04:49,782 --> 00:04:53,222 Speaker 3: victim of a con, is the shame because you're embarrassed 77 00:04:53,222 --> 00:04:56,462 Speaker 3: that you fell for the con, and you also think 78 00:04:56,502 --> 00:04:58,742 Speaker 3: you're the only one. Often a lot of these victims 79 00:04:58,782 --> 00:05:00,862 Speaker 3: thought they were the only one who were stupid enough 80 00:05:00,902 --> 00:05:04,182 Speaker 3: to be conned by Samantha but unfortunately it happened all 81 00:05:04,182 --> 00:05:07,622 Speaker 3: around the world. And as we discovered in the documentary 82 00:05:07,742 --> 00:05:11,622 Speaker 3: talking to experts like fear of Tobin, who's a behavioral expert, 83 00:05:12,622 --> 00:05:15,302 Speaker 3: anyone can be conned if you get the story right. 84 00:05:15,422 --> 00:05:17,902 Speaker 3: So Samantha knew how to craft a story that would 85 00:05:17,942 --> 00:05:18,742 Speaker 3: fit that person. 86 00:05:19,702 --> 00:05:23,982 Speaker 2: You follow Hope's story and she met Samantha as Emily 87 00:05:24,582 --> 00:05:29,382 Speaker 2: in Perth in twenty eleven. What story was Emily or 88 00:05:29,382 --> 00:05:32,862 Speaker 2: Samantha selling at that time and how closely embedded did 89 00:05:32,902 --> 00:05:34,542 Speaker 2: she become in her life? 90 00:05:34,862 --> 00:05:38,902 Speaker 3: She became really embedded into Hope's life scarily so actually, 91 00:05:39,342 --> 00:05:42,102 Speaker 3: so Samantha was pretending at this point to be a 92 00:05:42,142 --> 00:05:46,302 Speaker 3: fifteen year old gymnast called Emily Scaberis, and she claimed 93 00:05:46,822 --> 00:05:49,822 Speaker 3: that she was a world champion gymnast from Russia. Now 94 00:05:49,862 --> 00:05:52,542 Speaker 3: that might sound outlandish to you and I, but Hope's 95 00:05:52,582 --> 00:05:54,982 Speaker 3: a teenage girl as well. She had very few friends. 96 00:05:54,982 --> 00:05:58,622 Speaker 3: She'd only moved from New Zealand to Perth recently, so 97 00:05:58,622 --> 00:06:01,182 Speaker 3: she didn't have many friends. She was willing to believe 98 00:06:01,182 --> 00:06:03,982 Speaker 3: her and to back up her story. Samantha had created 99 00:06:04,022 --> 00:06:08,462 Speaker 3: a really elaborate Facebook page of Emily Scaberis as a gymnast, 100 00:06:08,822 --> 00:06:12,902 Speaker 3: and she very cleverly dole photos from real gymnasts pages 101 00:06:12,942 --> 00:06:15,822 Speaker 3: and put them onto her page. Particularly, we couldn't see 102 00:06:15,822 --> 00:06:19,742 Speaker 3: the face so that it looked like Samantha, and Hope 103 00:06:19,982 --> 00:06:22,382 Speaker 3: believed that, of course you would. And back in those 104 00:06:22,462 --> 00:06:25,062 Speaker 3: days twenty eleven, Facebook was only just starting, so no 105 00:06:25,142 --> 00:06:27,862 Speaker 3: one thought, oh, someone can make a fake page back then. 106 00:06:28,222 --> 00:06:29,142 Speaker 1: So Samantha was. 107 00:06:29,142 --> 00:06:31,742 Speaker 3: Really clever even in twenty eleven to be able to 108 00:06:31,822 --> 00:06:35,822 Speaker 3: manipulate technology to help her con So she set up 109 00:06:35,822 --> 00:06:38,742 Speaker 3: this Facebook page under Emily Scveris the gymnast, and she 110 00:06:38,862 --> 00:06:43,302 Speaker 3: convinced Hope that she was a Russian gymnast. After that, 111 00:06:43,742 --> 00:06:47,182 Speaker 3: she went to Hope's house many times, became almost like 112 00:06:47,222 --> 00:06:51,422 Speaker 3: a sister to Hope. So Samantha, calling herself Emily, told 113 00:06:51,502 --> 00:06:54,182 Speaker 3: Hope she was going away to Paris to see her family. 114 00:06:54,422 --> 00:06:56,262 Speaker 3: She had a mum and dad and a twin sister 115 00:06:56,302 --> 00:06:58,862 Speaker 3: called Chloe. So she went away for a couple of 116 00:06:58,862 --> 00:07:01,422 Speaker 3: months and Hope didn't think much of it, and then 117 00:07:01,462 --> 00:07:06,862 Speaker 3: she found out again via a Facebook page that Emily's sister, Chloe, 118 00:07:06,902 --> 00:07:08,982 Speaker 3: and her mum and dad had all been killed in 119 00:07:09,022 --> 00:07:13,102 Speaker 3: a murder suicide. This was posted on the page, and Hope, 120 00:07:13,102 --> 00:07:15,262 Speaker 3: of course, is devastated for her friend. At this point, 121 00:07:15,302 --> 00:07:17,622 Speaker 3: She's like, oh my god, Emily's lost her sister and 122 00:07:17,622 --> 00:07:19,262 Speaker 3: her parents murder suicide. 123 00:07:19,302 --> 00:07:20,022 Speaker 1: How horrendous. 124 00:07:20,662 --> 00:07:25,862 Speaker 3: So she contacted Emily and eventually Hope's family agreed to 125 00:07:25,942 --> 00:07:28,222 Speaker 3: adopt Emily because they were so upset for her that 126 00:07:28,302 --> 00:07:31,222 Speaker 3: she'd lost her whole family and this murder suicide. So 127 00:07:31,262 --> 00:07:34,662 Speaker 3: Emily came back to Perth and joined Hope's family and 128 00:07:35,422 --> 00:07:37,902 Speaker 3: was in the throes of being adopted by them. So 129 00:07:37,942 --> 00:07:41,502 Speaker 3: it was a very entrenched con So how was her 130 00:07:41,582 --> 00:07:42,582 Speaker 3: ruse discovered? 131 00:07:42,662 --> 00:07:45,582 Speaker 2: She kind of comes back, She's telling them, I'm going 132 00:07:45,622 --> 00:07:48,542 Speaker 2: to be adopted into your family. But her ruse is 133 00:07:48,542 --> 00:07:49,422 Speaker 2: discovered eventually. 134 00:07:49,782 --> 00:07:52,982 Speaker 3: Yeah, it took a year. She became really entrenched in 135 00:07:53,062 --> 00:07:56,102 Speaker 3: Hope's family. They enrolled her in the local high school. 136 00:07:56,222 --> 00:07:59,262 Speaker 3: She went to school for a year basically in Perth, 137 00:07:59,662 --> 00:08:02,982 Speaker 3: and it wasn't until March twenty twelve that the school 138 00:08:03,022 --> 00:08:07,182 Speaker 3: authorities discovered that Emily's birth certificate was forged and she 139 00:08:07,302 --> 00:08:09,182 Speaker 3: was then exposed. 140 00:08:09,822 --> 00:08:13,022 Speaker 2: So she was actually twenty three posing as a fifteen 141 00:08:13,102 --> 00:08:17,262 Speaker 2: year old. She'd spent well, yeah, years in Hope's family. 142 00:08:18,502 --> 00:08:22,302 Speaker 2: What impact did what she did to that family have. 143 00:08:22,982 --> 00:08:26,822 Speaker 3: It was devastating, and you know, Hope went through what 144 00:08:26,902 --> 00:08:30,222 Speaker 3: she described as her first breakup. She felt like it 145 00:08:30,262 --> 00:08:33,622 Speaker 3: was her first real proper relationship, not in a sexual way, 146 00:08:33,782 --> 00:08:35,982 Speaker 3: just that Emily was like her sister. 147 00:08:36,302 --> 00:08:39,942 Speaker 1: And she absolutely was devastated. 148 00:08:39,422 --> 00:08:41,622 Speaker 3: And the whole family, of course were because they were 149 00:08:41,702 --> 00:08:44,022 Speaker 3: duped by this girl who was a woman. 150 00:08:44,662 --> 00:08:50,462 Speaker 2: And it's such a specific jupe, like the details of it. 151 00:08:50,462 --> 00:08:53,222 Speaker 2: It's almost like that saying like it can't possibly be 152 00:08:53,262 --> 00:08:56,302 Speaker 2: a lie because it's too complicated and it's too intricate. 153 00:08:56,862 --> 00:08:57,102 Speaker 1: Yeah. 154 00:08:57,142 --> 00:09:00,222 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And we found from all of the experts we 155 00:09:00,262 --> 00:09:03,542 Speaker 3: spoke to that actually, the more complicated the lie, the 156 00:09:03,582 --> 00:09:06,062 Speaker 3: more likely we are to believe it, because you couldn't 157 00:09:06,062 --> 00:09:08,622 Speaker 3: think that someone would possibly make all of those things up, 158 00:09:08,702 --> 00:09:11,262 Speaker 3: you know, certainly the murder suicide. Who would say that 159 00:09:11,342 --> 00:09:13,502 Speaker 3: and think people are going to believe it and then, 160 00:09:13,622 --> 00:09:16,342 Speaker 3: you know, let them be traumatized by your parent trauma. 161 00:09:16,702 --> 00:09:19,502 Speaker 3: It was quite astounding, and she continued to do that 162 00:09:19,542 --> 00:09:20,582 Speaker 3: over the years to come. 163 00:09:20,902 --> 00:09:24,022 Speaker 2: Well, let's give another example. You also focus in on 164 00:09:24,102 --> 00:09:28,942 Speaker 2: Emmy's story and she met Samantha in Sydney in twenty fourteen, 165 00:09:29,302 --> 00:09:30,822 Speaker 2: What story did she tell her? 166 00:09:31,422 --> 00:09:34,222 Speaker 3: Emmy's story is quite amazing, and I think of all 167 00:09:34,262 --> 00:09:37,622 Speaker 3: of the cons she was probably the most traumatized of anyone. 168 00:09:38,182 --> 00:09:42,102 Speaker 3: She went along on a big long rollercoaster ride with Samantha. 169 00:09:42,822 --> 00:09:45,142 Speaker 3: So Emmy was just an eighteen year old backpacker from 170 00:09:45,182 --> 00:09:48,342 Speaker 3: the America, desperate to come into Australia and in the hostel. 171 00:09:48,382 --> 00:09:50,502 Speaker 3: In the first week she arrives in Sydney, she meets 172 00:09:50,862 --> 00:09:55,982 Speaker 3: a Swedish girl called Anakadecca immediately befriends her. Anaka says 173 00:09:56,102 --> 00:09:59,422 Speaker 3: she's actually quite rich. She's the daughter of you know, 174 00:09:59,582 --> 00:10:03,022 Speaker 3: she's a Swedish heiress. Then a few days later she 175 00:10:03,102 --> 00:10:05,222 Speaker 3: changes her story and says, actually, I'm not the daughter 176 00:10:05,262 --> 00:10:08,342 Speaker 3: of an heiress. I'm the daughter of Interpol agents. So 177 00:10:08,382 --> 00:10:12,862 Speaker 3: her parents were spies. Emmy believes her and says, okay, 178 00:10:12,942 --> 00:10:17,062 Speaker 3: that's fine, your parents aspise. She starts to weave a 179 00:10:17,262 --> 00:10:20,702 Speaker 3: very complicated story for Emmy. She says, you know, my 180 00:10:20,782 --> 00:10:23,422 Speaker 3: parents are from Intopol and I have to be protected 181 00:10:23,462 --> 00:10:26,102 Speaker 3: at all times, and there's some bad people after me, 182 00:10:26,302 --> 00:10:28,942 Speaker 3: and now because you're my friend, they're after you two. 183 00:10:29,782 --> 00:10:30,742 Speaker 1: Emmy believes her. 184 00:10:31,222 --> 00:10:35,862 Speaker 3: The reason she believes her is that Anaka also manages 185 00:10:35,942 --> 00:10:39,062 Speaker 3: to find out some very intimate things about Emmy thinks 186 00:10:39,102 --> 00:10:41,102 Speaker 3: that she thinks she's only ever told her mother, like 187 00:10:41,142 --> 00:10:43,142 Speaker 3: she told her mother that she had a safe word 188 00:10:43,502 --> 00:10:45,902 Speaker 3: called blue bananas. And if she ever told her mother 189 00:10:45,942 --> 00:10:49,382 Speaker 3: in the US blue bananas, that you know, she's in trouble. 190 00:10:49,782 --> 00:10:53,702 Speaker 3: And Anika somehow knew that Emmy's safe word was blue bananas. 191 00:10:54,062 --> 00:10:56,382 Speaker 1: So you know, Emmy. 192 00:10:56,382 --> 00:10:59,462 Speaker 3: Thought, Okay, this girl really is from Antipol, her parents 193 00:10:59,542 --> 00:11:01,822 Speaker 3: are from Intipol. They do know things about me that 194 00:11:01,862 --> 00:11:04,582 Speaker 3: no one else would know. So she was drawn in by, 195 00:11:04,902 --> 00:11:07,622 Speaker 3: you know, the intricate information that Annaka seemed to find 196 00:11:07,662 --> 00:11:08,302 Speaker 3: out about her. 197 00:11:08,902 --> 00:11:11,902 Speaker 2: Well, she ends up convincing Emmy to go on the run, 198 00:11:12,062 --> 00:11:15,982 Speaker 2: basically saying that these people that were after her are 199 00:11:15,982 --> 00:11:20,982 Speaker 2: now after Emmy, and it gets quite serious. She kind 200 00:11:21,022 --> 00:11:22,302 Speaker 2: of gets caught up with the police. 201 00:11:22,822 --> 00:11:25,422 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what she says to Emmy is that, oh, 202 00:11:25,502 --> 00:11:27,342 Speaker 3: I have to teach you how to be an Interpol agent. 203 00:11:27,422 --> 00:11:28,382 Speaker 1: I have to teach you how. 204 00:11:28,302 --> 00:11:30,462 Speaker 3: To lie, because that's the only way we can get 205 00:11:30,462 --> 00:11:33,862 Speaker 3: around and how we can get away from these mysterious baddies. 206 00:11:34,382 --> 00:11:37,582 Speaker 3: So she convinces Emmy to go and get a fake idea, 207 00:11:37,582 --> 00:11:40,742 Speaker 3: a fake driver's license under a different name. They then 208 00:11:40,782 --> 00:11:45,102 Speaker 3: travel to Brisbane and Anaka has a weird medical episode 209 00:11:45,142 --> 00:11:47,342 Speaker 3: and they end up in hospital and the police get 210 00:11:47,382 --> 00:11:50,622 Speaker 3: a bit suspicious because they check Emmy's ID and it's 211 00:11:50,702 --> 00:11:53,022 Speaker 3: under a different name. I mean, this is one of 212 00:11:53,022 --> 00:11:56,822 Speaker 3: her many convoluted stories. So they end up arresting Emmy 213 00:11:56,902 --> 00:11:59,782 Speaker 3: for fake ID and put her in prison next minute. 214 00:11:59,822 --> 00:12:02,062 Speaker 3: So she's in jail wondering what the hell is going 215 00:12:02,102 --> 00:12:04,942 Speaker 3: on and who the hell this woman is, but continues 216 00:12:04,982 --> 00:12:06,542 Speaker 3: to sort of hang on with Anika. 217 00:12:07,382 --> 00:12:08,382 Speaker 2: After she gets out. 218 00:12:08,262 --> 00:12:11,022 Speaker 3: From prison, Annik says, Okay, we've got to get to 219 00:12:11,062 --> 00:12:14,182 Speaker 3: somewhere safer. So they fly back to Sydney and they 220 00:12:14,262 --> 00:12:17,022 Speaker 3: end up living in a shipping container in the outer 221 00:12:17,102 --> 00:12:20,102 Speaker 3: suburbs of Sydney, and Anika says to Emmy, this is 222 00:12:20,142 --> 00:12:22,022 Speaker 3: a safe house and these people around us are into 223 00:12:22,022 --> 00:12:22,462 Speaker 3: poll agents. 224 00:12:22,462 --> 00:12:23,862 Speaker 1: They're going to keep us safe from now on. 225 00:12:24,302 --> 00:12:27,542 Speaker 3: So Emmy's in the freezing cold shipping container, not much food, 226 00:12:28,022 --> 00:12:36,542 Speaker 3: no proper running water, and she's continuing to believe the story. 227 00:12:40,022 --> 00:12:42,222 Speaker 2: So they're there for a number of days, you know, 228 00:12:42,262 --> 00:12:43,182 Speaker 2: maybe even ten. 229 00:12:43,062 --> 00:12:44,182 Speaker 1: Days, yeah, ten days. 230 00:12:44,622 --> 00:12:46,902 Speaker 2: But eventually Emmy is kind of like, I want out, 231 00:12:47,902 --> 00:12:50,782 Speaker 2: and she nearly gets out, and then she's kind of 232 00:12:50,822 --> 00:12:51,542 Speaker 2: drawn back in. 233 00:12:52,342 --> 00:12:52,622 Speaker 3: Yeah. 234 00:12:52,782 --> 00:12:53,102 Speaker 1: Yeah. 235 00:12:53,142 --> 00:12:55,702 Speaker 3: So you know, Emmy's starting to question, as we all would, 236 00:12:55,742 --> 00:12:58,062 Speaker 3: what the heck's going on. She thinks, I've got to 237 00:12:58,102 --> 00:12:59,782 Speaker 3: get out of here. I don't know if I'm you know, 238 00:13:00,022 --> 00:13:00,462 Speaker 3: am I. 239 00:13:00,342 --> 00:13:01,382 Speaker 1: Imprisoned in here? 240 00:13:01,662 --> 00:13:05,102 Speaker 3: So she starts to spin a lie to Anika and 241 00:13:05,142 --> 00:13:07,822 Speaker 3: she says, actually, my visa is about to expire. I 242 00:13:07,862 --> 00:13:09,702 Speaker 3: really have to go and sort that out, you know. 243 00:13:09,862 --> 00:13:13,302 Speaker 3: So Anika lets her out of the safe house and 244 00:13:13,462 --> 00:13:15,982 Speaker 3: Emmy ends up getting to go back to the US. 245 00:13:16,022 --> 00:13:19,542 Speaker 3: She gets away, but while she's on the plane, finally 246 00:13:19,702 --> 00:13:23,782 Speaker 3: almost safe from you know, Anika's clutches, she gets a 247 00:13:23,822 --> 00:13:27,782 Speaker 3: text from Anika saying you're in danger again, And when 248 00:13:27,822 --> 00:13:30,662 Speaker 3: she lands in the US, Anaka convinces her to meet 249 00:13:30,702 --> 00:13:31,422 Speaker 3: her in Canada. 250 00:13:31,902 --> 00:13:32,862 Speaker 1: So they then end. 251 00:13:32,822 --> 00:13:37,302 Speaker 3: Up traveling to Canada and meeting up another crazy step 252 00:13:37,342 --> 00:13:37,782 Speaker 3: in the store. 253 00:13:37,862 --> 00:13:40,342 Speaker 2: Well, it just kind of gets weirder from there because 254 00:13:40,622 --> 00:13:43,742 Speaker 2: it's almost like she's in one roos and she can 255 00:13:43,782 --> 00:13:45,542 Speaker 2: see that that one's ending, and then she starts a 256 00:13:45,582 --> 00:13:47,062 Speaker 2: new one in Canada. 257 00:13:47,142 --> 00:13:49,022 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think she just didn't want to let 258 00:13:49,142 --> 00:13:51,622 Speaker 3: go of Emmy. So she convinced her to come to 259 00:13:51,662 --> 00:13:54,502 Speaker 3: Canada and help her with one last step. It was 260 00:13:54,542 --> 00:13:56,462 Speaker 3: almost like she had the power over her by then, 261 00:13:56,502 --> 00:13:57,902 Speaker 3: and she thought, I'm going to get her to come 262 00:13:57,942 --> 00:13:58,422 Speaker 3: to Canada. 263 00:13:58,462 --> 00:14:01,342 Speaker 1: See if she'll do that. So she did. Emmy came 264 00:14:01,382 --> 00:14:02,902 Speaker 1: to Canada. They met up. 265 00:14:03,182 --> 00:14:05,102 Speaker 3: They went to a hostel and there was a bunch 266 00:14:05,102 --> 00:14:08,342 Speaker 3: of Swedish backpackers at this hostel, and this is where 267 00:14:08,342 --> 00:14:12,062 Speaker 3: Emmy finally twigged. The Swedish backpack has started to talk 268 00:14:12,142 --> 00:14:15,102 Speaker 3: to Anika in Swedish. And remember her backstory was that 269 00:14:15,182 --> 00:14:19,702 Speaker 3: she was a Swedish Interpol agent's daughter. The backpackers speak 270 00:14:19,782 --> 00:14:23,062 Speaker 3: to her in Swedish and Anaka doesn't understand them, and 271 00:14:23,102 --> 00:14:24,462 Speaker 3: Emmy sees this and. 272 00:14:24,422 --> 00:14:27,742 Speaker 1: She says, she doesn't even speak Swedish. 273 00:14:27,822 --> 00:14:30,422 Speaker 3: It was just the final straw that broke the camel's 274 00:14:30,422 --> 00:14:34,502 Speaker 3: back for me. So she realizes this is definitely not 275 00:14:34,702 --> 00:14:39,702 Speaker 3: a Swedish you know, teenager. So she says, okay, I'm out. 276 00:14:39,942 --> 00:14:41,342 Speaker 3: I don't want to be with you anymore. I don't 277 00:14:41,342 --> 00:14:44,302 Speaker 3: want to be involved. But Anaka convinces he to do 278 00:14:44,342 --> 00:14:46,462 Speaker 3: one last thing, and that was to paint bruises on 279 00:14:46,502 --> 00:14:50,662 Speaker 3: her face for her next con. So even at the end, 280 00:14:50,782 --> 00:14:53,422 Speaker 3: Emmy was helping her with the next con. 281 00:14:54,062 --> 00:14:57,142 Speaker 2: And this was, you know, back in twenty fourteen. You've 282 00:14:57,182 --> 00:15:00,342 Speaker 2: spoken to her in recent years. She's still really affected. 283 00:15:00,942 --> 00:15:04,542 Speaker 3: She's still really affected. She's really bitter. Actually, you know, 284 00:15:04,662 --> 00:15:09,702 Speaker 3: she calls Samantha aka you know, Anika the devil. She said, 285 00:15:09,782 --> 00:15:14,342 Speaker 3: she made me lose my trust in humanity, She lost 286 00:15:14,542 --> 00:15:18,582 Speaker 3: faith in relationships with friends or other people. She's very 287 00:15:18,622 --> 00:15:21,222 Speaker 3: wary of meeting new people. Now, she's probably one of 288 00:15:21,222 --> 00:15:23,622 Speaker 3: the most damaged of all of the victims because of 289 00:15:23,662 --> 00:15:26,382 Speaker 3: the elaborateness of the ruse. And of course she's so 290 00:15:26,422 --> 00:15:29,102 Speaker 3: embarrassed and shamed, as they all are. And I think 291 00:15:29,142 --> 00:15:31,382 Speaker 3: that's one of the worst things that Samantha does is 292 00:15:32,022 --> 00:15:35,982 Speaker 3: make people feel ashamed and embarrassed and shy of telling 293 00:15:36,022 --> 00:15:38,822 Speaker 3: their story because of that. And that's the problem is 294 00:15:38,902 --> 00:15:41,262 Speaker 3: people don't tell a story. You know, her name never 295 00:15:41,302 --> 00:15:43,462 Speaker 3: gets out there. So we've got to keep telling the story. 296 00:15:43,502 --> 00:15:44,822 Speaker 3: We have to keep telling the story. 297 00:15:45,142 --> 00:15:48,302 Speaker 2: So she kind of picks up this new con in Canada, 298 00:15:48,382 --> 00:15:52,102 Speaker 2: and this one she does end up getting some charges 299 00:15:52,782 --> 00:15:54,822 Speaker 2: how quickly does it take for Canada to work out 300 00:15:54,862 --> 00:15:55,462 Speaker 2: what's going on? 301 00:15:55,742 --> 00:15:57,062 Speaker 1: It was reasonably quickly. 302 00:15:57,262 --> 00:15:59,222 Speaker 3: She at this point was saying she was a sexual 303 00:15:59,262 --> 00:16:03,062 Speaker 3: assault victim and was only fourteen. The bruises on her face, 304 00:16:03,462 --> 00:16:06,022 Speaker 3: you know, helped to prove that. Apparently, what they did 305 00:16:06,062 --> 00:16:10,142 Speaker 3: is send out her fingerprints across the world, and thankfully 306 00:16:10,222 --> 00:16:14,022 Speaker 3: because of the Irish con a little while earlier, the 307 00:16:14,062 --> 00:16:16,462 Speaker 3: Irish police had a match for her fingerprints and let 308 00:16:16,502 --> 00:16:18,622 Speaker 3: them know that it was Samantha as a party. She's 309 00:16:18,662 --> 00:16:22,462 Speaker 3: twenty six, she's not fourteen. So once again she's charged 310 00:16:22,622 --> 00:16:26,382 Speaker 3: and she pleads guilty. She always, you know, mostly pleads guilty, 311 00:16:26,742 --> 00:16:29,262 Speaker 3: but often she's already spent some time in prison and 312 00:16:29,382 --> 00:16:33,542 Speaker 3: is often released fairly quickly. So again similar to the 313 00:16:33,542 --> 00:16:36,422 Speaker 3: Irish case, she was deported back to Australia in the end. 314 00:16:36,982 --> 00:16:41,902 Speaker 2: From what you have ascertained in following Samantha's cons do 315 00:16:41,982 --> 00:16:44,582 Speaker 2: her schemes and stories get more and more kind of 316 00:16:44,702 --> 00:16:46,062 Speaker 2: elaborate as they go on. 317 00:16:46,862 --> 00:16:49,582 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think she got more confident as years went on, 318 00:16:50,022 --> 00:16:55,462 Speaker 3: and we talked to a few psychological experts, and deception 319 00:16:55,702 --> 00:16:58,542 Speaker 3: is her drug. She doesn't do it for money. She 320 00:16:58,662 --> 00:17:01,302 Speaker 3: doesn't really do it for any gain. She may, you know, 321 00:17:01,382 --> 00:17:05,182 Speaker 3: here and there she's stolen things from people iPads or ID, 322 00:17:05,862 --> 00:17:08,662 Speaker 3: but it's never a big financial gain like most cons. 323 00:17:08,982 --> 00:17:10,302 Speaker 1: So Samantha was. 324 00:17:10,582 --> 00:17:13,862 Speaker 3: The thrill of the lie, the thrill of the deception. 325 00:17:14,342 --> 00:17:16,542 Speaker 3: And so I think she got more and more confident 326 00:17:16,622 --> 00:17:19,942 Speaker 3: and told more and more elaborate lies, and she also 327 00:17:20,142 --> 00:17:23,542 Speaker 3: started to do cons more, you know, simultaneously, So she 328 00:17:23,622 --> 00:17:24,302 Speaker 3: was trying to run. 329 00:17:24,462 --> 00:17:25,462 Speaker 1: I don't know how she does it. 330 00:17:25,502 --> 00:17:27,662 Speaker 3: How do you have three or four names on the go, 331 00:17:27,742 --> 00:17:29,022 Speaker 3: three or four identities on the go. 332 00:17:29,062 --> 00:17:31,102 Speaker 1: It's hard enough with one right, so, you know. 333 00:17:31,102 --> 00:17:33,502 Speaker 2: I can't remember my own life, let alone ten fake 334 00:17:33,542 --> 00:17:34,502 Speaker 2: ones at the same time. 335 00:17:34,942 --> 00:17:37,822 Speaker 3: So it was actually a really tricky juggle for her. 336 00:17:37,942 --> 00:17:42,022 Speaker 3: And she's obviously pretty smart. She's very tech savvy. She 337 00:17:42,582 --> 00:17:45,782 Speaker 3: knows how to manipulate Facebook and Instagram. She knows how 338 00:17:45,782 --> 00:17:48,982 Speaker 3: to show people that she has their personal information by 339 00:17:49,342 --> 00:17:53,062 Speaker 3: mining information from their Facebook pages. You know, people put 340 00:17:53,062 --> 00:17:55,062 Speaker 3: a lot of things out there on social media, and 341 00:17:55,142 --> 00:17:58,542 Speaker 3: she used to research that. So I often think she 342 00:17:58,662 --> 00:18:02,702 Speaker 3: used her time in prison to research new scams, new cons. 343 00:18:03,102 --> 00:18:06,102 Speaker 2: I know that you said that she's addicted to the deception, 344 00:18:06,262 --> 00:18:08,862 Speaker 2: But is there anything else psychologically going on here? Has 345 00:18:08,902 --> 00:18:10,502 Speaker 2: she been diagnosed with anything? 346 00:18:10,942 --> 00:18:15,382 Speaker 3: She's had various psychological assessments. I think one of the 347 00:18:15,422 --> 00:18:19,542 Speaker 3: problems is how do you assess psychologically someone who's a 348 00:18:19,542 --> 00:18:23,022 Speaker 3: compulsive liar, because no one knows when she's telling the truth. 349 00:18:23,902 --> 00:18:28,862 Speaker 3: We had a forensic psychiatrist, doctor Richard Bryson, as our expert. 350 00:18:29,142 --> 00:18:30,582 Speaker 1: He looked at all of. 351 00:18:30,542 --> 00:18:35,622 Speaker 3: Samantha's cases and all of her backstory, and he came 352 00:18:35,702 --> 00:18:38,902 Speaker 3: up with a couple of different diagnoses. Now, he's very 353 00:18:38,942 --> 00:18:41,262 Speaker 3: quick to say he didn't meet her and didn't assess 354 00:18:41,302 --> 00:18:43,622 Speaker 3: her personally, but he's looked at all of the information. 355 00:18:44,382 --> 00:18:46,302 Speaker 3: He says she has a few different things going on. 356 00:18:46,542 --> 00:18:50,462 Speaker 3: He believes it's borderline personality disorder, which is where you 357 00:18:50,502 --> 00:18:53,982 Speaker 3: have no self identity and you're looking for someone else's 358 00:18:54,022 --> 00:18:57,982 Speaker 3: identity almost He also says she has pseudological fantastica, which 359 00:18:58,022 --> 00:19:01,742 Speaker 3: is basically pathological lying, where you lie for no reason 360 00:19:01,782 --> 00:19:05,102 Speaker 3: apart from the thrill of lying, which seems like it 361 00:19:05,182 --> 00:19:07,982 Speaker 3: is the case for Samantha. And then a third disorder, 362 00:19:07,982 --> 00:19:10,942 Speaker 3: he says is factitious disorder, which is like it's also 363 00:19:10,982 --> 00:19:13,942 Speaker 3: known as Munchausen's where you fake an illness. So often 364 00:19:13,982 --> 00:19:18,422 Speaker 3: in her cons she's faking sexual abuse or other illnesses, 365 00:19:19,062 --> 00:19:21,502 Speaker 3: so it seems like she's out for pity. 366 00:19:22,142 --> 00:19:25,382 Speaker 2: The other interesting thing to note is that she often 367 00:19:25,542 --> 00:19:28,262 Speaker 2: takes on the alias of a teenager, of someone that's 368 00:19:28,302 --> 00:19:31,262 Speaker 2: around fourteen fifteen years old, and she's in her twenties. 369 00:19:31,862 --> 00:19:36,342 Speaker 3: Yes, our expert, doctor Fryarson said, maybe something happened in 370 00:19:36,382 --> 00:19:39,822 Speaker 3: those teenage years, because she keeps wanting to be somewhere 371 00:19:39,822 --> 00:19:43,702 Speaker 3: between fourteen and seventeen. So perhaps something actually traumatic happened 372 00:19:44,022 --> 00:19:46,702 Speaker 3: that she wants to go back to and relive, or 373 00:19:46,742 --> 00:19:49,742 Speaker 3: she wants to change that life. But as I said, 374 00:19:50,062 --> 00:19:53,142 Speaker 3: we don't know for sure because no one knows whether 375 00:19:53,142 --> 00:19:56,582 Speaker 3: she's telling the truth. Whenever she's assessed, it's never known 376 00:19:56,582 --> 00:19:57,382 Speaker 3: whether she's lying. 377 00:19:57,942 --> 00:20:00,582 Speaker 2: I want to bring in Lucy. She met Samantha in 378 00:20:00,662 --> 00:20:04,542 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen in Sydney, so by this point Samantha has 379 00:20:04,662 --> 00:20:07,862 Speaker 2: many convictions. Her face is out there, at least in 380 00:20:08,222 --> 00:20:12,262 Speaker 2: Ireland and Canada, and but she's not kind of widespread 381 00:20:12,342 --> 00:20:15,142 Speaker 2: enough that every single person would know who she is, 382 00:20:15,262 --> 00:20:18,742 Speaker 2: especially someone like Lucy who was a backpacker in Australia. 383 00:20:18,982 --> 00:20:21,742 Speaker 2: She told Lucy that her name was Layla. What was 384 00:20:21,782 --> 00:20:22,942 Speaker 2: the story that she was telling? 385 00:20:23,902 --> 00:20:26,822 Speaker 3: So at least in this case, she wasn't pretending to 386 00:20:26,822 --> 00:20:29,742 Speaker 3: be a teenager for a change. She told Lucy that 387 00:20:29,782 --> 00:20:32,022 Speaker 3: she was Layla and that she was a child psychologist. 388 00:20:32,262 --> 00:20:34,982 Speaker 3: But she really wanted Lucy to help her with a 389 00:20:34,982 --> 00:20:37,582 Speaker 3: couple of pranks, a couple of surprises. And Lucy is 390 00:20:37,622 --> 00:20:40,222 Speaker 3: a sort of fun loving person. She thought, oh, that's cool. 391 00:20:40,462 --> 00:20:42,502 Speaker 3: She didn't know anyone in Sydney. She was from France. 392 00:20:42,542 --> 00:20:44,702 Speaker 1: She said, oh, I can help you. I love surprises. 393 00:20:45,502 --> 00:20:48,542 Speaker 3: So she says, okay, I want to prank my brother 394 00:20:49,222 --> 00:20:51,182 Speaker 3: and I want you to call him and tell him 395 00:20:51,222 --> 00:20:53,742 Speaker 3: we're having a surprise party. So she kind of does 396 00:20:53,782 --> 00:20:56,422 Speaker 3: a test with Lucy and says, just pretend we're having 397 00:20:56,462 --> 00:20:58,502 Speaker 3: a surprise party and I want him out of the house. 398 00:20:58,542 --> 00:21:01,102 Speaker 3: So she does a test where nothing really happens, nothing 399 00:21:01,142 --> 00:21:03,502 Speaker 3: goes wrong, but Lucy does a good job. So then 400 00:21:03,542 --> 00:21:06,222 Speaker 3: she gets Lucy to do a second strange phone call. 401 00:21:06,822 --> 00:21:09,142 Speaker 3: She said, I want you to call my brother's girlfriend. 402 00:21:09,182 --> 00:21:11,582 Speaker 3: She's a teacher at this school in Marrickville, and I 403 00:21:11,622 --> 00:21:14,382 Speaker 3: want you to say you're a doctor, and you're verifying 404 00:21:14,422 --> 00:21:16,822 Speaker 3: that the X rays of this young girl harper Heart 405 00:21:17,342 --> 00:21:19,862 Speaker 3: are consistent with that of a thirteen year old girl. 406 00:21:19,982 --> 00:21:22,822 Speaker 3: So Lucy had durant and say, I'm just confirming that 407 00:21:22,862 --> 00:21:25,262 Speaker 3: these x rays are the X rays of a thirteen 408 00:21:25,342 --> 00:21:27,102 Speaker 3: year old girl. She had no idea why she was doing. 409 00:21:27,142 --> 00:21:29,702 Speaker 3: It was just a really weird story, and Liucy went, okay, whatever. 410 00:21:29,822 --> 00:21:32,582 Speaker 3: You guys are family, you do what you want. Then 411 00:21:32,702 --> 00:21:34,862 Speaker 3: it was probably a few months later Lucy gets a 412 00:21:34,942 --> 00:21:38,822 Speaker 3: call from New South Wales police. They say are you Lucy? 413 00:21:38,942 --> 00:21:42,982 Speaker 3: Did you make this call to school in Marrickville And 414 00:21:43,022 --> 00:21:45,662 Speaker 3: she thinks, why would I ring? She couldn't remember. She'd 415 00:21:45,702 --> 00:21:47,862 Speaker 3: travel all around Australia since then. She didn't know what 416 00:21:47,902 --> 00:21:51,022 Speaker 3: they were talking about. And then she said, oh wait, yes, 417 00:21:51,222 --> 00:21:52,942 Speaker 3: I think I did make a call to a school 418 00:21:52,942 --> 00:21:55,702 Speaker 3: in mariic for why And the police said, well, let's 419 00:21:55,742 --> 00:21:58,222 Speaker 3: tie it up with a kidnapping case. So Lucy, this 420 00:21:58,302 --> 00:22:01,302 Speaker 3: French backpacker is suddenly involved in a kidnapping case and 421 00:22:01,302 --> 00:22:02,222 Speaker 3: has no idea why. 422 00:22:02,662 --> 00:22:05,542 Speaker 2: Well, this is one of those instances of two of 423 00:22:05,902 --> 00:22:10,662 Speaker 2: Samantha's alias's kind of overlapping or her using Lucy to 424 00:22:10,742 --> 00:22:14,382 Speaker 2: kind of support another con she's doing in another part 425 00:22:14,382 --> 00:22:18,422 Speaker 2: of Sydney. So she was pretending to be Harper Heart. 426 00:22:18,462 --> 00:22:21,502 Speaker 2: The person on the phone call a thirteen year old girl, 427 00:22:21,542 --> 00:22:23,582 Speaker 2: so it's getting even younger exactly. 428 00:22:23,982 --> 00:22:25,982 Speaker 3: So, yes, this is when she starts doing more than 429 00:22:26,142 --> 00:22:28,782 Speaker 3: one con at a time and is getting quite convoluted 430 00:22:28,782 --> 00:22:31,942 Speaker 3: in crossing them over. So on the one hand, she's 431 00:22:31,982 --> 00:22:34,622 Speaker 3: telling Lucy, you know, can you make this call to 432 00:22:34,662 --> 00:22:36,742 Speaker 3: a school, It's just a prank. On the other hand, 433 00:22:36,982 --> 00:22:39,902 Speaker 3: she actually is pretending to be this thirteen year old 434 00:22:39,942 --> 00:22:43,502 Speaker 3: girl Halper Heart at a school for special needs in Merrickville. 435 00:22:43,862 --> 00:22:46,262 Speaker 3: She had told the school that she was a victim 436 00:22:46,302 --> 00:22:49,822 Speaker 3: of sexual assault and human trafficking. Eventually, this school worked 437 00:22:49,822 --> 00:22:52,702 Speaker 3: out that again her birth certificate had been forged, and 438 00:22:52,782 --> 00:22:56,382 Speaker 3: police start to investigate, and they track down Lucy's phone 439 00:22:56,462 --> 00:22:58,302 Speaker 3: you know, and call her and say do you know 440 00:22:58,342 --> 00:23:01,982 Speaker 3: anything about this young girl? We realize her birth certificates forged? 441 00:23:02,342 --> 00:23:04,182 Speaker 3: Is she a victim of a pedophile ring? How are 442 00:23:04,182 --> 00:23:07,022 Speaker 3: you involved in this? And Lucy is suddenly wrapped up 443 00:23:07,022 --> 00:23:08,062 Speaker 3: in a kidnapping case. 444 00:23:08,862 --> 00:23:11,942 Speaker 2: The wild part of this particular story, I mean, every 445 00:23:12,142 --> 00:23:15,302 Speaker 2: story that Samantha does is wild, But she had been 446 00:23:15,342 --> 00:23:18,982 Speaker 2: faking this thirteen year old Harper Alias at this school 447 00:23:18,982 --> 00:23:19,822 Speaker 2: for more than a year. 448 00:23:20,302 --> 00:23:23,862 Speaker 3: Yes, and she pretended not to be able to read, 449 00:23:24,022 --> 00:23:26,622 Speaker 3: so she had teachers working really hard with her to 450 00:23:26,662 --> 00:23:29,022 Speaker 3: teach her how to read. She had you know, other 451 00:23:29,062 --> 00:23:32,502 Speaker 3: teachers helping her through therapy because she was pretending that 452 00:23:32,542 --> 00:23:35,022 Speaker 3: she was traumatized and a victim of sexual assault. 453 00:23:35,902 --> 00:23:38,142 Speaker 1: So the workers at this school. 454 00:23:37,982 --> 00:23:40,582 Speaker 3: Ended up being later on when they found out it 455 00:23:40,622 --> 00:23:43,742 Speaker 3: was a fake, were really traumatized. You know, one teacher 456 00:23:43,742 --> 00:23:46,702 Speaker 3: in particular was absolutely traumatized because she'd worked with this 457 00:23:46,902 --> 00:23:50,542 Speaker 3: young girl for a year helping her read, and in 458 00:23:50,582 --> 00:23:53,702 Speaker 3: the end she was also duped. And again the shame 459 00:23:53,742 --> 00:23:54,742 Speaker 3: and the embarrassment of that. 460 00:23:57,742 --> 00:24:01,582 Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass. 461 00:24:01,982 --> 00:24:04,982 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Paula Bycroft, the executive producer of the 462 00:24:05,022 --> 00:24:10,422 Speaker 2: documentary con Girl. Up next, samanthas CON's escalate, so Alias's 463 00:24:10,622 --> 00:24:17,182 Speaker 2: start to engage children. Well, she ended up Samantha that is, 464 00:24:17,222 --> 00:24:20,542 Speaker 2: going to prison for that particular ruse for a year. 465 00:24:20,982 --> 00:24:24,062 Speaker 2: She gets out in twenty eighteen and basically just goes 466 00:24:24,102 --> 00:24:26,742 Speaker 2: back to her old ways. Yeah, yep, but this time 467 00:24:26,782 --> 00:24:29,342 Speaker 2: she does a lot of kind of a pair kind 468 00:24:29,342 --> 00:24:31,582 Speaker 2: of ruses. She's kind of doing similar. 469 00:24:31,662 --> 00:24:35,622 Speaker 3: Yes, identities, that's right, I think, you know, our expert 470 00:24:35,622 --> 00:24:38,222 Speaker 3: psychiatrist said that maybe she gets to a point where 471 00:24:38,262 --> 00:24:40,902 Speaker 3: she can't be a teenager anymore, so she she's evolving 472 00:24:40,942 --> 00:24:42,102 Speaker 3: younger children as well. 473 00:24:42,142 --> 00:24:42,542 Speaker 1: We don't know. 474 00:24:42,582 --> 00:24:44,662 Speaker 3: I mean, she was still pretending to be an older teenager, 475 00:24:44,662 --> 00:24:47,662 Speaker 3: you know, eighteen, seventeen or eighteen, but she couldn't pretend 476 00:24:47,702 --> 00:24:51,342 Speaker 3: she was thirteen anymore. So maybe there was some psychological 477 00:24:51,342 --> 00:24:54,742 Speaker 3: reason for suddenly involving kids. The problem is that once 478 00:24:54,742 --> 00:24:57,182 Speaker 3: you involve kids, it can be very dangerous. And that's 479 00:24:57,182 --> 00:24:59,582 Speaker 3: where it started to lead that her cons weren't just 480 00:24:59,662 --> 00:25:03,782 Speaker 3: hurting young women, they were hurting children, or they're about to. 481 00:25:04,382 --> 00:25:06,822 Speaker 2: That's where Georgia comes in, who is a thirteen year 482 00:25:06,822 --> 00:25:11,342 Speaker 2: old girl, and she gets tied up with Coco Samantha, 483 00:25:12,142 --> 00:25:14,462 Speaker 2: and this was a very different kind of calm like 484 00:25:14,502 --> 00:25:16,702 Speaker 2: you were alluding to. She's kind of involving kids and 485 00:25:16,742 --> 00:25:21,222 Speaker 2: almost living that abuse kind of persona through a child. 486 00:25:21,502 --> 00:25:24,262 Speaker 3: Yes, and I have to say, poor Georgia was, you know, 487 00:25:24,302 --> 00:25:27,742 Speaker 3: a bright eyed, aspiring young model. She had the world 488 00:25:27,782 --> 00:25:31,062 Speaker 3: at a feat. She was gorgeous young things. She'd won contests, 489 00:25:31,422 --> 00:25:34,622 Speaker 3: you know, modeling contests, dancing competitions, so she felt like 490 00:25:35,102 --> 00:25:38,142 Speaker 3: she was ready to spread her wings. She put a 491 00:25:38,502 --> 00:25:43,462 Speaker 3: profile on Instagram and received a message from someone called 492 00:25:43,542 --> 00:25:48,902 Speaker 3: Coco Palma, who was Samantha. Georgia was so excited. So 493 00:25:48,942 --> 00:25:52,622 Speaker 3: Coco Palma, this talent agent, contacted Georgia and said, I 494 00:25:52,702 --> 00:25:55,622 Speaker 3: love your look. I think we could get you some work. 495 00:25:55,862 --> 00:25:58,342 Speaker 3: I work for a modeling agency in New York. And 496 00:25:58,382 --> 00:25:59,982 Speaker 3: of course Georgia had stars in her eyes. 497 00:26:00,022 --> 00:26:01,022 Speaker 1: She was so excited. 498 00:26:01,542 --> 00:26:03,262 Speaker 3: You know, they come from a lovely family on the 499 00:26:03,302 --> 00:26:07,222 Speaker 3: Central Coast, very loving family. Her mum Mel said, Okay, 500 00:26:07,222 --> 00:26:09,582 Speaker 3: go for it, you can do this, and so the 501 00:26:09,622 --> 00:26:12,382 Speaker 3: whole family to Sydney from the Central Coast to meet 502 00:26:12,462 --> 00:26:16,942 Speaker 3: with Coco the talent agent and talk about Georgie's prospects. 503 00:26:17,582 --> 00:26:21,222 Speaker 2: So she made this family travel from the Central Coast 504 00:26:21,342 --> 00:26:23,222 Speaker 2: across the country to Melbourne. 505 00:26:23,582 --> 00:26:26,182 Speaker 3: And you know, for this family, for a couple of them, 506 00:26:26,182 --> 00:26:28,542 Speaker 3: it was their first flight ever. So for them it 507 00:26:28,622 --> 00:26:33,182 Speaker 3: was this exciting adventure and they were so thrilled. Georgia 508 00:26:33,262 --> 00:26:36,222 Speaker 3: was having her big break and mel brought along you know, 509 00:26:36,262 --> 00:26:39,782 Speaker 3: her other daughter, Tiana, who was with her baby. So 510 00:26:39,862 --> 00:26:42,502 Speaker 3: it was like a family adventure and this was George's 511 00:26:42,542 --> 00:26:43,142 Speaker 3: big chance. 512 00:26:43,222 --> 00:26:45,542 Speaker 1: So you know, they were very excited. 513 00:26:45,662 --> 00:26:48,502 Speaker 3: They trusted Coco because they thought, oh, well, she must 514 00:26:48,582 --> 00:26:51,382 Speaker 3: have the money to fly us to Melbourne, obviously, but 515 00:26:51,622 --> 00:26:54,662 Speaker 3: then what they saw next started to worry them. Co 516 00:26:54,742 --> 00:26:58,942 Speaker 3: Co started to audition Georgia in very strange ways. 517 00:26:59,422 --> 00:27:00,902 Speaker 2: It wasn't really modeling, wasn't. 518 00:27:01,302 --> 00:27:05,222 Speaker 3: No. Coco told Georgia that she could be in a film, 519 00:27:05,262 --> 00:27:08,582 Speaker 3: so she wanted to check her acting abilities. So what 520 00:27:08,622 --> 00:27:10,862 Speaker 3: she did once there in Melbourne was to send out 521 00:27:10,902 --> 00:27:15,742 Speaker 3: to child service offices and have her pretend to be 522 00:27:15,782 --> 00:27:18,462 Speaker 3: an abused child. So isn't this ringing bells? This is 523 00:27:18,582 --> 00:27:20,462 Speaker 3: likes Samantha, They're in so many other guys is, but 524 00:27:20,542 --> 00:27:23,462 Speaker 3: this time she's getting Georgia to do her bidding. So 525 00:27:24,302 --> 00:27:27,902 Speaker 3: it's quite distressing. And Georgia starts to say to her, Mum, 526 00:27:28,422 --> 00:27:31,062 Speaker 3: this doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what I'm doing here. 527 00:27:31,102 --> 00:27:33,702 Speaker 3: It seems a bit weird. And Mel, you know, to 528 00:27:33,742 --> 00:27:35,582 Speaker 3: her credit now she says she's sorry she did this. 529 00:27:35,622 --> 00:27:37,142 Speaker 3: But Mel at the time said, oh, come on, darling, 530 00:27:37,262 --> 00:27:39,182 Speaker 3: this is your one big chance, keep trying give it 531 00:27:39,222 --> 00:27:41,902 Speaker 3: a go. We're only here for another few days. To 532 00:27:41,942 --> 00:27:44,582 Speaker 3: this day, Mel is very sorry that that happened, but 533 00:27:44,742 --> 00:27:46,662 Speaker 3: she was just trying to help her daughter, you know. 534 00:27:47,262 --> 00:27:49,422 Speaker 3: Then they start to get a little bit suspicious because 535 00:27:49,422 --> 00:27:51,742 Speaker 3: they move from a hotel to hostel, and they think, 536 00:27:52,142 --> 00:27:55,382 Speaker 3: why has this fancy New York talent agent moved us 537 00:27:55,422 --> 00:27:59,342 Speaker 3: to a hostel. So Mel looks into who booked the 538 00:27:59,462 --> 00:28:02,582 Speaker 3: room and they tell her that the room was booked 539 00:28:02,662 --> 00:28:05,782 Speaker 3: under the name of Jazz Jarvis, and Mel said, Jazz Jervis. 540 00:28:05,542 --> 00:28:06,902 Speaker 1: That's not Coco Palma. 541 00:28:07,662 --> 00:28:10,862 Speaker 3: So they google the name Jazz Jervis and they find 542 00:28:10,862 --> 00:28:14,022 Speaker 3: out that Jazz Jarvis is a Melbourne woman who had 543 00:28:14,102 --> 00:28:17,222 Speaker 3: also hired this same woman as an O pair under 544 00:28:17,222 --> 00:28:17,942 Speaker 3: a different name. 545 00:28:18,022 --> 00:28:20,062 Speaker 2: So it's all starting to ding ding ding, And at 546 00:28:20,062 --> 00:28:24,342 Speaker 2: this point, Coco is out with Georgia alone. 547 00:28:24,742 --> 00:28:27,902 Speaker 3: Yeah, so Coco has taken Georgia out for another audition 548 00:28:28,142 --> 00:28:32,142 Speaker 3: in a child services office, and when Mel realizes that 549 00:28:32,222 --> 00:28:35,142 Speaker 3: Coco's not who she says she is, she rings Georgia 550 00:28:35,182 --> 00:28:37,582 Speaker 3: and Georgie's on her way back and she starts to 551 00:28:37,622 --> 00:28:41,262 Speaker 3: get quite distressed and things, I'm with this strange woman. 552 00:28:41,462 --> 00:28:42,782 Speaker 3: I don't know who she is, and I don't know 553 00:28:42,782 --> 00:28:44,942 Speaker 3: what to do. This is a thirteen year old girl. Mel, 554 00:28:45,062 --> 00:28:47,102 Speaker 3: on the other hand, is in the hotel thinking, my 555 00:28:47,422 --> 00:28:49,542 Speaker 3: little daughter is with a stranger. I don't know where 556 00:28:49,582 --> 00:28:51,182 Speaker 3: she could take her. I don't know what's going to happen. 557 00:28:51,582 --> 00:28:55,662 Speaker 2: When they got back to the hotel, Mel confronts her, 558 00:28:56,142 --> 00:28:58,822 Speaker 2: which in all the stories we've told, a lot of 559 00:28:58,862 --> 00:29:02,262 Speaker 2: these victims haven't had the opportunity really to kind of 560 00:29:02,342 --> 00:29:05,582 Speaker 2: do that. But Mel really goes at her at Samantha, 561 00:29:05,622 --> 00:29:07,342 Speaker 2: and it's all filmed, which is amazing. 562 00:29:07,622 --> 00:29:11,062 Speaker 3: Yes, So Mel's mama instinct kicks in. She thinks, Okay, 563 00:29:11,342 --> 00:29:14,542 Speaker 3: this strange woman has duped us, duped my daughter and 564 00:29:14,742 --> 00:29:16,462 Speaker 3: is with her right now, and I don't know who 565 00:29:16,502 --> 00:29:17,862 Speaker 3: she is and I don't know what she might do. 566 00:29:18,422 --> 00:29:22,222 Speaker 3: So Mel kind of runs around the hotel room searching 567 00:29:22,262 --> 00:29:24,422 Speaker 3: for something that she can protect herself with because she 568 00:29:24,462 --> 00:29:27,262 Speaker 3: doesn't know if this woman's going to attack her. Once 569 00:29:27,302 --> 00:29:30,382 Speaker 3: she confronts her, she finds a knife and sticks it 570 00:29:30,582 --> 00:29:32,622 Speaker 3: under the mattress, ready to grab if she needs it. 571 00:29:32,622 --> 00:29:37,102 Speaker 3: So it's actually a really distressing moment. Georgia and co 572 00:29:37,222 --> 00:29:41,182 Speaker 3: Co finally walk into the hotel room and Mel sort 573 00:29:41,182 --> 00:29:42,102 Speaker 3: of says, who are you? 574 00:29:42,262 --> 00:29:43,822 Speaker 1: We know you're not who you say you are. 575 00:29:44,302 --> 00:29:47,142 Speaker 3: We've discovered that you've booked this hostel under another name, 576 00:29:47,262 --> 00:29:49,422 Speaker 3: somebody else's name, and it's not you. 577 00:29:50,062 --> 00:29:50,502 Speaker 1: Who are you? 578 00:29:50,542 --> 00:29:53,502 Speaker 3: And what are you doing with my daughter? Tiana, Mel's 579 00:29:53,542 --> 00:29:56,182 Speaker 3: other daughter, has the presence of mine to video the 580 00:29:56,222 --> 00:30:00,502 Speaker 3: whole thing. And that's actually really an important point in 581 00:30:00,542 --> 00:30:03,502 Speaker 3: all of Samantha's cons because she always tries to hide 582 00:30:03,542 --> 00:30:06,542 Speaker 3: her face. As we know from the Irish story, she 583 00:30:07,102 --> 00:30:09,382 Speaker 3: rarely was photographed. She never liked to be, you know, 584 00:30:09,462 --> 00:30:12,262 Speaker 3: whoever she tended to be. She didn't like photos taken. 585 00:30:13,222 --> 00:30:18,382 Speaker 3: This video of Coco aka sam was the first time 586 00:30:18,542 --> 00:30:22,022 Speaker 3: anyone had seen quite detailed video or photo of her. 587 00:30:22,422 --> 00:30:25,462 Speaker 3: So this was a turning point in the cons really, 588 00:30:26,102 --> 00:30:27,862 Speaker 3: so thank goodness she took that video. 589 00:30:28,022 --> 00:30:30,822 Speaker 2: And she took a pretty clear photo because as we've said, 590 00:30:30,862 --> 00:30:32,662 Speaker 2: like a lot of the photos are a bit fuzzy 591 00:30:32,742 --> 00:30:34,422 Speaker 2: and from the side, and she had a very clear 592 00:30:34,422 --> 00:30:37,262 Speaker 2: photo and Mel those mama instincts again, she kind of 593 00:30:37,302 --> 00:30:39,502 Speaker 2: just blasted it out on social media. 594 00:30:39,742 --> 00:30:43,542 Speaker 3: Yes, so once they confronted Coco kind of continued to 595 00:30:43,582 --> 00:30:46,222 Speaker 3: deny that there was anything wrong, continued to hold her 596 00:30:46,622 --> 00:30:49,702 Speaker 3: persona as Coco. She ran off and left them there. 597 00:30:49,742 --> 00:30:51,702 Speaker 3: They ended up having to get back from Melbourne to 598 00:30:51,902 --> 00:30:54,542 Speaker 3: Sydney on their own, paying their own way home. They 599 00:30:54,542 --> 00:30:57,342 Speaker 3: were stranded at the airport, but they got back and 600 00:30:57,382 --> 00:31:00,742 Speaker 3: Mel decided, Okay, I am going to show this woman's 601 00:31:00,742 --> 00:31:03,182 Speaker 3: face so that everyone knows who she is. So it 602 00:31:03,222 --> 00:31:05,622 Speaker 3: was kind of a banding together of the mums because 603 00:31:05,662 --> 00:31:09,102 Speaker 3: Mel posted it on Facebook, and then Jazz Jarvis, who 604 00:31:09,182 --> 00:31:12,862 Speaker 3: was someone who'd also employed Sam under another name, then 605 00:31:12,982 --> 00:31:15,142 Speaker 3: put it up on Instagram and it was suddenly an 606 00:31:15,142 --> 00:31:17,382 Speaker 3: avalanche of people finding out who she was. 607 00:31:17,902 --> 00:31:20,142 Speaker 2: I think that's one of the hardest parts of the 608 00:31:20,182 --> 00:31:22,822 Speaker 2: story to kind of wrap your head around. We live 609 00:31:22,822 --> 00:31:24,662 Speaker 2: in a modern world where there's so much technology, and 610 00:31:24,702 --> 00:31:27,062 Speaker 2: you kind of think, how does she get away with this, 611 00:31:27,182 --> 00:31:30,902 Speaker 2: especially in the police's eyes time and time again. But 612 00:31:30,982 --> 00:31:34,062 Speaker 2: she's very clever at keeping off the radar when it 613 00:31:34,062 --> 00:31:36,582 Speaker 2: comes to her face on anything. 614 00:31:36,862 --> 00:31:40,342 Speaker 3: Yes, and even in her court appearances. Now you'll notice 615 00:31:40,382 --> 00:31:42,902 Speaker 3: if you've seen any photos of her, she always covers 616 00:31:42,902 --> 00:31:45,622 Speaker 3: her face with a scarf and sunglasses or you know, 617 00:31:45,622 --> 00:31:49,022 Speaker 3: it just hides away. She's very protective of what she 618 00:31:49,102 --> 00:31:52,582 Speaker 3: looks like because she can't con people if everyone recognizes her. 619 00:31:53,142 --> 00:31:57,462 Speaker 2: Well, it really escalates in late twenty nineteen, once again 620 00:31:57,462 --> 00:32:00,342 Speaker 2: she's posing as a teenage opeir for a family with 621 00:32:00,422 --> 00:32:04,462 Speaker 2: two young kids, and she basically kidnaps them and takes 622 00:32:04,462 --> 00:32:05,782 Speaker 2: them to another town. 623 00:32:06,462 --> 00:32:08,062 Speaker 1: Yeah, this was really serious. 624 00:32:08,182 --> 00:32:11,062 Speaker 3: You realize that this could have ended very bad if 625 00:32:11,222 --> 00:32:14,502 Speaker 3: the con hadn't been realized. So she was pretending to 626 00:32:14,542 --> 00:32:17,382 Speaker 3: be a young o pair. She was looking after two 627 00:32:17,542 --> 00:32:20,622 Speaker 3: little kids. It was a French couple who'd only just 628 00:32:20,702 --> 00:32:23,702 Speaker 3: moved to Australia. She takes them on what she says 629 00:32:23,742 --> 00:32:26,102 Speaker 3: is a little picnic. They think she's just going down, 630 00:32:26,182 --> 00:32:28,102 Speaker 3: you know, not far away. She ends up taking these 631 00:32:28,182 --> 00:32:31,822 Speaker 3: two small children to Bendigo. When she gets there, it's 632 00:32:31,862 --> 00:32:34,902 Speaker 3: another weird thing that happens. She's wearing a school uniform, 633 00:32:35,422 --> 00:32:38,182 Speaker 3: so even though in the French couple's eyes, she's just 634 00:32:38,222 --> 00:32:40,622 Speaker 3: a no pair, when she gets to Bendigo, she has 635 00:32:40,622 --> 00:32:43,742 Speaker 3: a school uniform on and she goes into Headspace, which 636 00:32:43,782 --> 00:32:46,582 Speaker 3: is a mental health support service in Bendigo, claiming to 637 00:32:46,622 --> 00:32:49,702 Speaker 3: be a forteen year old pregnant girl. While she's there 638 00:32:49,822 --> 00:32:52,102 Speaker 3: she's still carrying the kid. She's still got the kids 639 00:32:52,102 --> 00:32:54,622 Speaker 3: she's looking after, which is weird in itself. So she's 640 00:32:54,662 --> 00:32:57,502 Speaker 3: got the two kids with her. She walks into Headspace, 641 00:32:57,582 --> 00:33:01,902 Speaker 3: pretending to be an abused girl. Luckily, finally a staff 642 00:33:01,942 --> 00:33:05,782 Speaker 3: member recognizes her photo. Goodness, thank goodness, Finally there's enough 643 00:33:05,782 --> 00:33:08,302 Speaker 3: photos out there that people start to recognize who she is, 644 00:33:08,942 --> 00:33:11,502 Speaker 3: so they quickly ring the police, and the police turn up. 645 00:33:11,702 --> 00:33:13,822 Speaker 3: They end up having to chase her down through the 646 00:33:13,822 --> 00:33:17,662 Speaker 3: streets of Bendigo and arresting her in a department store nearby, 647 00:33:17,862 --> 00:33:21,182 Speaker 3: and she finally she hands over the kids. Thankfully they're 648 00:33:21,222 --> 00:33:25,982 Speaker 3: safe and sound, and she's arrested once again. The parents 649 00:33:25,982 --> 00:33:29,222 Speaker 3: of those children are really traumatized by the horse, and 650 00:33:29,662 --> 00:33:31,142 Speaker 3: we asked them if they wanted to talk to us 651 00:33:31,182 --> 00:33:34,302 Speaker 3: in the documentary, and they just really couldn't because they've. 652 00:33:34,102 --> 00:33:35,502 Speaker 1: Been so traumatized by this. 653 00:33:35,702 --> 00:33:38,502 Speaker 3: And you know, the mom is really scared of even 654 00:33:38,542 --> 00:33:41,382 Speaker 3: having her kids babysit or leaving them, so she was 655 00:33:41,422 --> 00:33:44,342 Speaker 3: almost stuck at home for years after this because she 656 00:33:44,382 --> 00:33:46,622 Speaker 3: was so traumatized by what happened to her kids. 657 00:33:46,862 --> 00:33:49,462 Speaker 2: I can imagine even the mostly women that you did 658 00:33:49,502 --> 00:33:51,662 Speaker 2: get on screen, it would have taken so much kind 659 00:33:51,702 --> 00:33:54,502 Speaker 2: of support and convincing, and it just goes to show 660 00:33:54,582 --> 00:33:59,302 Speaker 2: how how much emotional damage something like this can do 661 00:33:59,422 --> 00:33:59,902 Speaker 2: to someone. 662 00:34:00,222 --> 00:34:04,222 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and you know, as I said, they mainly had 663 00:34:04,262 --> 00:34:07,822 Speaker 3: shame and embarrassment and feeling isolated because they thought they 664 00:34:07,822 --> 00:34:10,102 Speaker 3: were the only ones stupid enough to be duped, when 665 00:34:10,102 --> 00:34:12,142 Speaker 3: in fact, you know, she's done it over and over 666 00:34:12,182 --> 00:34:16,022 Speaker 3: and over again. And at the end of our documentary series, 667 00:34:16,062 --> 00:34:19,222 Speaker 3: we actually get Emmy and Lucy together and it's a 668 00:34:19,222 --> 00:34:22,462 Speaker 3: really cathartic moment for both of them because they can 669 00:34:22,502 --> 00:34:25,822 Speaker 3: compare notes about what Samantha did to them, and I 670 00:34:25,902 --> 00:34:28,782 Speaker 3: think they felt like that was a really healing experience 671 00:34:28,822 --> 00:34:31,262 Speaker 3: for them, and they actually hung out together for a 672 00:34:31,302 --> 00:34:34,742 Speaker 3: while after that because friends are of a bad situation, absolutely, 673 00:34:34,782 --> 00:34:37,902 Speaker 3: because they both felt that this other person. Emmy felt 674 00:34:37,942 --> 00:34:40,182 Speaker 3: that Lucy was the only one in the world really 675 00:34:40,182 --> 00:34:41,862 Speaker 3: who could understand what she'd been through. 676 00:34:42,262 --> 00:34:46,502 Speaker 2: The kidnapping stint got Samantha prison time again, so she 677 00:34:46,542 --> 00:34:49,502 Speaker 2: did about eighteen months for that, which feels not enough 678 00:34:50,022 --> 00:34:52,702 Speaker 2: for something like that, and she was released in May 679 00:34:52,742 --> 00:34:55,702 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one and went back to her old ways. 680 00:34:55,942 --> 00:34:58,342 Speaker 2: She just is there any remorse that we've seen from 681 00:34:58,382 --> 00:34:59,382 Speaker 2: Samantha in any of this. 682 00:35:00,142 --> 00:35:02,982 Speaker 3: No, And I think the other hard part is that 683 00:35:03,022 --> 00:35:06,902 Speaker 3: she never wants to take any mental health treatment. They've 684 00:35:06,942 --> 00:35:09,502 Speaker 3: tried over and over again, I think too, you know, 685 00:35:09,582 --> 00:35:13,782 Speaker 3: as part of her set and seeing to recommend psychiatric 686 00:35:13,822 --> 00:35:19,142 Speaker 3: treatment mental health therapy. She goes through the motions sometimes, 687 00:35:19,182 --> 00:35:22,862 Speaker 3: but she usually a refuses to believe that there's any 688 00:35:22,902 --> 00:35:26,542 Speaker 3: diagnosis and doesn't want to be involved in any treatment. 689 00:35:26,582 --> 00:35:29,862 Speaker 3: And I think that's the key with Samantha. She'll continue 690 00:35:30,382 --> 00:35:32,942 Speaker 3: until she can get help. Well. 691 00:35:32,982 --> 00:35:36,022 Speaker 2: Since May twenty twenty one, when she was released, she's 692 00:35:36,102 --> 00:35:38,982 Speaker 2: kind of been a fourteen year old abuse victim from France, 693 00:35:39,262 --> 00:35:42,862 Speaker 2: she's been a nineteen year old Polish o pair and 694 00:35:42,862 --> 00:35:46,102 Speaker 2: then in October we're in October twenty twenty four, she 695 00:35:46,142 --> 00:35:49,462 Speaker 2: was in court again. What was the instance now that 696 00:35:49,502 --> 00:35:50,782 Speaker 2: has put her in prison again. 697 00:35:51,102 --> 00:35:54,222 Speaker 3: So she's just out of jail on a previous con 698 00:35:54,662 --> 00:35:57,302 Speaker 3: She's thirty five years old by now, she's still passing 699 00:35:57,302 --> 00:35:58,702 Speaker 3: herself off as a teenager. 700 00:35:58,742 --> 00:35:59,382 Speaker 1: In this case. 701 00:35:59,942 --> 00:36:03,062 Speaker 3: She convisits a young Danish backpacker to stay with her 702 00:36:03,102 --> 00:36:06,902 Speaker 3: in different refuge homes around Australia. She claims that her 703 00:36:06,942 --> 00:36:10,742 Speaker 3: parents are filmmakers and they're going to be paid to 704 00:36:10,742 --> 00:36:13,582 Speaker 3: make a video diary of their travels. So they start 705 00:36:13,582 --> 00:36:17,222 Speaker 3: traveling around. Then she tells the Danish backpacker, Oh, the 706 00:36:17,262 --> 00:36:20,182 Speaker 3: police are after you, so we have to go and hide. 707 00:36:20,302 --> 00:36:23,142 Speaker 3: Let's go to some family violence services in Melbourne. So 708 00:36:23,462 --> 00:36:26,422 Speaker 3: she again gets this poor young backpacker on the hook, 709 00:36:26,862 --> 00:36:30,022 Speaker 3: takes it to different crisis accommodation around Melbourne. They end 710 00:36:30,102 --> 00:36:33,262 Speaker 3: up scamming, or she really ends up scamming twenty thousand 711 00:36:33,262 --> 00:36:37,462 Speaker 3: dollars worth of food, clothing, accommodation from you know, domestic 712 00:36:37,542 --> 00:36:40,902 Speaker 3: violence sentence. So not only is she scamming that money, 713 00:36:40,942 --> 00:36:43,262 Speaker 3: but she's also taking the place with someone. 714 00:36:43,102 --> 00:36:45,782 Speaker 1: Who genuinely needs it. It's awful. 715 00:36:46,342 --> 00:36:48,222 Speaker 2: So she's just gotten out of prison from that. 716 00:36:48,822 --> 00:36:50,742 Speaker 3: She was sentenced to two years jail for that, but 717 00:36:50,742 --> 00:36:53,782 Speaker 3: with time already served, she's pretty much eligible for parole again. 718 00:36:53,942 --> 00:36:55,542 Speaker 3: So who knows what happens next. 719 00:36:56,022 --> 00:36:59,022 Speaker 2: How many victims, honestly do you think there are out there? 720 00:36:59,342 --> 00:37:01,302 Speaker 3: I think we only scratch the surface, And the police 721 00:37:01,302 --> 00:37:03,302 Speaker 3: will even say that, police from around the world say 722 00:37:03,342 --> 00:37:06,342 Speaker 3: we have no idea how many other cons she's done. 723 00:37:06,822 --> 00:37:07,982 Speaker 1: She's relentless. 724 00:37:08,062 --> 00:37:12,382 Speaker 3: She's consistent, she's constant, and she's obviously not remorseful. So 725 00:37:12,582 --> 00:37:14,662 Speaker 3: I don't think she's going to stop. We know she 726 00:37:14,742 --> 00:37:18,342 Speaker 3: has at least seventy five aliases and she's had at 727 00:37:18,422 --> 00:37:22,502 Speaker 3: least one hundred charges against her across the world. The 728 00:37:22,582 --> 00:37:25,462 Speaker 3: sad thing is that she doesn't look like stopping anytime soon. 729 00:37:26,022 --> 00:37:28,742 Speaker 2: Have we heard anything from her family. Have they come 730 00:37:28,822 --> 00:37:30,062 Speaker 2: forward and said anything. 731 00:37:30,342 --> 00:37:34,342 Speaker 3: We tried to approach her family for the series and 732 00:37:34,382 --> 00:37:36,822 Speaker 3: they didn't respond, So we don't know a great deal 733 00:37:36,862 --> 00:37:40,142 Speaker 3: about her family, apart from the background that she grew 734 00:37:40,222 --> 00:37:42,022 Speaker 3: up in southwestern Sydney. 735 00:37:42,382 --> 00:37:45,742 Speaker 2: The experts you spoke to, have they ever seen anything 736 00:37:46,422 --> 00:37:46,782 Speaker 2: like this? 737 00:37:47,422 --> 00:37:47,622 Speaker 1: No. 738 00:37:48,182 --> 00:37:52,422 Speaker 3: I think that the forensic psychiatrist in the US said 739 00:37:52,462 --> 00:37:55,982 Speaker 3: it's a really rare case. He's never seen this combination 740 00:37:56,102 --> 00:38:00,222 Speaker 3: of disorders and even pseudological fantastica. He's said he's only 741 00:38:00,262 --> 00:38:02,342 Speaker 3: seen two or three cases in his entire career, and 742 00:38:02,382 --> 00:38:05,102 Speaker 3: he's done hundreds of court cases in America. 743 00:38:05,862 --> 00:38:08,822 Speaker 2: I think for so long she's managed to get away 744 00:38:08,862 --> 00:38:14,982 Speaker 2: with pretending she's a young teenager. She's now nearing forty. 745 00:38:15,142 --> 00:38:18,982 Speaker 2: She's in her mid to late thirties, so I guess 746 00:38:19,062 --> 00:38:21,622 Speaker 2: we don't really know where her coms could go because 747 00:38:21,662 --> 00:38:25,022 Speaker 2: her default is not going to be an option for 748 00:38:25,102 --> 00:38:25,702 Speaker 2: much longer. 749 00:38:26,382 --> 00:38:30,342 Speaker 3: She's a very slight, tiny little thing, so she can 750 00:38:30,542 --> 00:38:32,702 Speaker 3: get away with pretending to be a teenager. I don't 751 00:38:32,742 --> 00:38:35,422 Speaker 3: know for how much longer. In the Harper Heart con 752 00:38:35,622 --> 00:38:38,862 Speaker 3: back at the Marrickville School, she drew freckles on her 753 00:38:38,862 --> 00:38:42,702 Speaker 3: face to try and look younger. In this most recent con, 754 00:38:42,822 --> 00:38:45,662 Speaker 3: she actually spent some of the money getting freckles tattooed 755 00:38:45,702 --> 00:38:48,702 Speaker 3: on her face, wow, to look younger. So she's still trying. 756 00:38:48,742 --> 00:38:50,582 Speaker 3: She's still trying to look young and I don't know 757 00:38:50,582 --> 00:38:53,222 Speaker 3: how much longer she can continue, but she's going to 758 00:38:53,342 --> 00:38:53,822 Speaker 3: keep trying. 759 00:38:54,062 --> 00:38:55,622 Speaker 2: Should we feel sorry for Samantha? 760 00:38:56,342 --> 00:38:58,342 Speaker 3: I feel a little sorry for her and some of 761 00:38:58,382 --> 00:39:01,622 Speaker 3: the victims mel for example, George's mum feels sorry for 762 00:39:01,662 --> 00:39:04,262 Speaker 3: her because she needs help. She does need help, and 763 00:39:04,342 --> 00:39:08,422 Speaker 3: if she agreed to psychological help, I think things might 764 00:39:08,502 --> 00:39:10,862 Speaker 3: change for her. But it's very difficult when you're wrapped 765 00:39:10,942 --> 00:39:13,462 Speaker 3: up in your own web of lies to extract yourself 766 00:39:13,502 --> 00:39:13,822 Speaker 3: from that. 767 00:39:14,742 --> 00:39:17,542 Speaker 2: What do we do from here? We know from her 768 00:39:17,662 --> 00:39:20,302 Speaker 2: history that she's not going to stop, you know, she 769 00:39:20,382 --> 00:39:22,142 Speaker 2: might stop for a little while while she's in prison, 770 00:39:22,822 --> 00:39:25,102 Speaker 2: but she's just going to keep going. Do you think 771 00:39:25,702 --> 00:39:27,542 Speaker 2: there's enough people out there that don't know who she 772 00:39:27,622 --> 00:39:28,902 Speaker 2: is that she's just going to get away with this 773 00:39:28,942 --> 00:39:29,742 Speaker 2: for so much longer. 774 00:39:30,422 --> 00:39:32,582 Speaker 3: I think the more we tell her story, the more 775 00:39:32,622 --> 00:39:35,382 Speaker 3: people will know who she is. And for the victims, 776 00:39:35,422 --> 00:39:38,142 Speaker 3: that's why they did this series. They want to get 777 00:39:38,182 --> 00:39:40,462 Speaker 3: her name out there so that maybe she will be stopped. 778 00:39:41,262 --> 00:39:44,102 Speaker 2: How do you go about telling this story on screen 779 00:39:44,422 --> 00:39:47,142 Speaker 2: while also protecting the victims at the center of it, because, 780 00:39:47,142 --> 00:39:49,502 Speaker 2: as we've talked about, many of them are still really 781 00:39:49,542 --> 00:39:51,662 Speaker 2: affected by their interactions with Samantha. 782 00:39:52,462 --> 00:39:55,102 Speaker 3: One of the things that we were really careful about 783 00:39:55,262 --> 00:39:57,822 Speaker 3: was duty of care to our victims. There's been a 784 00:39:57,822 --> 00:40:00,822 Speaker 3: lot of stories in the media lately about true crime 785 00:40:00,862 --> 00:40:04,142 Speaker 3: shows and not looking after your victims and just using 786 00:40:04,142 --> 00:40:07,062 Speaker 3: them as part of the series. We were always really 787 00:40:07,142 --> 00:40:11,742 Speaker 3: careful that we gave our victims full psychological ste support before, during, 788 00:40:11,782 --> 00:40:13,782 Speaker 3: and after the filming, and we still touch base with 789 00:40:13,822 --> 00:40:16,582 Speaker 3: them even now when things come up about Samantha, because 790 00:40:16,582 --> 00:40:19,662 Speaker 3: we know they're going to get triggered again. So, you know, 791 00:40:19,702 --> 00:40:23,062 Speaker 3: I think whatever show you're making especially true crime shows. 792 00:40:23,062 --> 00:40:27,302 Speaker 3: It's all about keeping your victims comfortable and safe and 793 00:40:27,422 --> 00:40:31,502 Speaker 3: always feeling psychologically well and okay about telling their story. 794 00:40:31,582 --> 00:40:33,942 Speaker 3: And they know that this story was important enough to tell, 795 00:40:34,222 --> 00:40:36,222 Speaker 3: but we want to support them while they're doing that. 796 00:40:36,822 --> 00:40:38,822 Speaker 2: Have you had people reach out to you since the show? 797 00:40:39,062 --> 00:40:42,102 Speaker 3: More victims, A couple of people who've met Samantha that 798 00:40:42,222 --> 00:40:45,222 Speaker 3: thankfully nothing bad happened to them, But we had quite 799 00:40:45,262 --> 00:40:47,382 Speaker 3: a few other backpackers contact us and say I think 800 00:40:47,422 --> 00:40:49,622 Speaker 3: I met that girl while I was backpacking around Sydney, 801 00:40:49,622 --> 00:40:53,102 Speaker 3: an Irish backpacker and a couple of other international backpackers. 802 00:40:53,462 --> 00:40:56,302 Speaker 3: Thankfully they weren't con to the extent that you know 803 00:40:56,342 --> 00:41:00,542 Speaker 3: Emmy and Lucy and others were, but she certainly obviously 804 00:41:00,582 --> 00:41:04,542 Speaker 3: tries it at every opportunity, so yeah, she's always looking 805 00:41:04,582 --> 00:41:05,662 Speaker 3: for that next con. 806 00:41:09,462 --> 00:41:11,862 Speaker 2: Thanks to Paula for helping us to tell this story. 807 00:41:12,302 --> 00:41:15,462 Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and 808 00:41:15,462 --> 00:41:18,822 Speaker 2: produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio 809 00:41:18,862 --> 00:41:22,462 Speaker 2: design by Tom Lyon. Thanks so much for listening. I'll 810 00:41:22,462 --> 00:41:24,982 Speaker 2: be back next week with another True Crime Conversation