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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to MoMA Mia out loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Monday, the twentieth of October.

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Speaker 3: And I am Hollyway right, I am Amelia Lust and

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Speaker 3: I'm Claire Effie.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Murphy. Jesse Stevens is on holiday.

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Speaker 4: She is where she flitted off to.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can't tell you in case everybody rushes off

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Speaker 2: to find her. But the poor pregnant with twins woman

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Speaker 2: is taking a much feeded, little break, little treat, putting

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Speaker 2: the little feet up, putting all the little feet up

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Speaker 2: that are inside her at the moment.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, Oh my god, she has six feet right now.

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Speaker 4: How weird.

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Speaker 2: We'll get back to her anyway. Here's what's on our

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Speaker 2: agenda for today. There's a Gwyneth A Jason TV show

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Speaker 2: that's unlike anything else and it's all about something none

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Speaker 2: of us want to talk about. And a controversial cardigan.

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Speaker 5: Plus Kim Kardashian wore a pretty unusual dress this weekend

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Speaker 5: and it made me wonder just how much fashion designers

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Speaker 5: hate women.

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Speaker 3: And the problem of Prince Andrew for the King and

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Speaker 3: his heir seems to finally maybe be being dealt with.

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Speaker 3: But why is Andrew stepping away from his royal titles

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Speaker 3: now is the question. But first, in case you missed it,

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Speaker 3: can anyone at this point in time confirm the exact

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Speaker 3: whereabouts of Rhianna and Hathaway, Sandra Bullock, Kate Lanchette, Helena

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Speaker 3: Bonham Carter and Sarah Poulsen. No, because in a plot

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Speaker 3: that feels straight out of Oceans, eight thieves arrived on

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Speaker 3: motorbike at the Louver yesterday before using a crane or

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Speaker 3: basket lift to access a window that they opened using

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Speaker 3: a disc cutter to target the Apollo gallery of the

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Speaker 3: Louver Museum, where they keep a selection of the French

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Speaker 3: Crown jewels from back when they had a monarchy, grabbing

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Speaker 3: stacks of them before getting away just four minutes later.

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Speaker 3: This happened at nine thirty am, not in the dead

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Speaker 3: of night when we expect Jull thieves and cat burglars to.

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Speaker 4: Be at their best.

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Speaker 3: It was already packed with tourists and the tour guides

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Speaker 3: were taking people around for the day, and one of

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Speaker 3: them gave an interview in the street outside and said

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Speaker 3: they were just in the building. They heard a loud

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Speaker 3: noise from one of the windows before staff told them

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Speaker 3: all to urgently evacuate. So what is going on here?

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Speaker 3: Is there a movie happening that we weren't aware of?

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Speaker 3: This seems wild.

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Speaker 2: I was very excited by this news. I immediately put

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Speaker 2: it in our family group chat because I was one

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Speaker 2: of those annoying Australians who was in Europe this northern summer.

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Speaker 2: I'm not usually, but this year it was my turn

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Speaker 2: to be irritating, and I took the kids to France

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Speaker 2: as out loud as would know, and we went to

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Speaker 2: the Louver and my kids were particularly my daughter was

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Speaker 2: much more excited by this crown jewels bit than by

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Speaker 2: the Mona Lisa and all those things. And she posed

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Speaker 2: for all these selfies where she's wearing this little crown

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Speaker 2: that God's stolen. But I just assumed, because they're really impressive.

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Speaker 2: They're like emeralds as big as your fist. There are

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Speaker 2: all these amazing things. I assumed they were fake. I assumed,

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Speaker 2: surely with all these people milling around and obviously they're

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Speaker 2: behind glass, but I was like, is this really the

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Speaker 2: real thing? And I'd assume the same about the Tower

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Speaker 2: of London and the English Crown jewels. But no, they

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Speaker 2: are the real deal, which is obviously why these guys

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Speaker 2: want them.

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Speaker 3: Well, French authorities have said the value of what has

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Speaker 3: been stolen is inestimable, like they cannot put a price on.

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Speaker 2: It, and they're gonna have to melt it all down

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Speaker 2: to sell it.

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Speaker 3: Who's going to buy it unless there's some I don't know,

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Speaker 3: Russian oligarch who's like, get me the French crown jewels

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Speaker 3: and he's just sitting in his toilet wearing a crown

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Speaker 3: of a long forgotten French monarch. I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I think this is the most French story that ever existed.

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Speaker 5: The French just love frenching on us. First of all,

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Speaker 5: my unpacked them many ways. This is extremely French.

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Speaker 4: First of all, they're jewel thieves.

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Speaker 5: Remember jewel thieves also came up with Kim kard Yeah,

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Speaker 5: Kim Kardashian had.

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Speaker 4: Her jewels stolen in Paris.

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Speaker 3: Elderly jewel thieves, if I remember rightly, they were like

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Speaker 3: octagenarians or something.

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Speaker 5: What I want to know is how many jewel thieves

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Speaker 5: in France are putting jewel thief on their tax returns

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Speaker 5: because I just feel like there's lots more of them

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Speaker 5: in France than anywhere else. Second thing about this is

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Speaker 5: you mentioned Claire.

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Speaker 4: That they climbed up on a crane.

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Speaker 5: Yes, how is no one stopping them and saying does

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Speaker 5: this crane? Has this crane got a safety certificate? What's

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Speaker 5: going on with the crane outside the loop?

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Speaker 3: There has been a lot of discussion about security and

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Speaker 3: safety at the loop for quite some time, and it

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Speaker 3: obviously has not been addressed to their satisfaction. And case

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Speaker 3: in point, someone was able to park a crane outside

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Speaker 3: that could access a window.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, and my third point, the reason why this

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Speaker 5: is so French. They managed to get away with us

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Speaker 5: at nine point thirty am on a Sunday, correct, I

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Speaker 5: mean no one's awake in France thirty on a Sunday.

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Speaker 5: This is why it was possible. I proved my point

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Speaker 5: the French aire going to French on us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as you happened to see a cut price crown

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Speaker 2: on Facebook.

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Speaker 4: And the next by it's legit.

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Speaker 3: Okay, moving on, how do you solve a problem like Andrew?

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Speaker 3: Over the weekend you probably caught that Prince Andrew, that

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Speaker 3: pesky little brother of King Charles reportedly Mummy, Queen Elizabeth's favorite,

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Speaker 3: and who also consorted with convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, and

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Speaker 3: seems to have lied about just how long that relationship

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Speaker 3: lasted in recent emails that have been made public between

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Speaker 3: the Duke and Epstein, showing he continued to support him

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Speaker 3: even after he was exposed. Andrew has decided, after some

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Speaker 3: discussion with the King, to give up all his royal titles.

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Speaker 3: Decided the right word yet to that, so he will

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Speaker 3: no longer be the Duke of York. He'll give up

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Speaker 3: his membership of the Order of the Garter, which is

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Speaker 3: the most senior order of knighthood, as well as a

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Speaker 3: bunch of others. He did release a statement saying continued

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Speaker 3: accusations about him distract from the work of his Majesty

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Speaker 3: and the royal family, so he will still be a prince.

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Speaker 3: His ex Sarah Ferguson, though, will stop being a duchess.

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Speaker 3: She was also caught up in the emails to Epstein

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Speaker 3: list their daughter's Beatrice and Eugenie will still be princesses.

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Speaker 3: But then, on top of that, London police are probing

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Speaker 3: whether Prince Andrew also asked an officer assigned to him

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Speaker 3: as a bodyguard to dig up dirt on sexual assault

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Speaker 3: accuser Virginia Giffray. The Metro Police said on Sunday they're

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Speaker 3: actively looking into media reports that Andrews sought information in

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Speaker 3: twenty eleven to smear Giffrey by asking an officer on

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Speaker 3: the force to find out if she had a criminal record.

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Speaker 4: She did not.

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Speaker 3: That is besides the point if you unaware. Virginia Giffrey

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Speaker 3: took her own life back in April. Her new memoir

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Speaker 3: is reportedly being released this week. Her family says they're

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Speaker 3: happy Andrew is stepping back, saying it was a joyous

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Speaker 3: moment for survivors of Epstein. But Holly as mum and

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Speaker 3: BEA's royal correspondent, why is this happening now? Has Andrew's

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Speaker 3: been fighting this for years? As he jumping before being pushed.

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Speaker 2: I don't think he's jumping at all. I think he

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Speaker 2: was pushed. I think that this story is so upsetting

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Speaker 2: on so many levels. Obviously, some extracts from you mentioned

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Speaker 2: Claire how Virginia Jeffray's posthumous memoirs coming out this week

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Speaker 2: October twenty first that some extracts have been published. It

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Speaker 2: is the reading is so sobering in terms of how

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Speaker 2: she was first introduced to Epstein via Mara Lago, which

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Speaker 2: as we know, is Donald Trump's resort in Florida, about

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Speaker 2: what happened to her, about what went on with Epstein

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Speaker 2: about her, and obviously we have to say alleged encounters

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Speaker 2: with Prince Andrew, because he has always denied, even though

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Speaker 2: he settled out of court with her, he has always

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Speaker 2: denied that anything went on there, but she The fact

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Speaker 2: that the royal family haven't acted decisively on Andrew until

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Speaker 2: it has become impossible for them to do anything else

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Speaker 2: is so I don't know what the word is, cowardly depressing.

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Speaker 2: It's because the thing is is that if King Charles

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Speaker 2: really disapproved of the way his mum handled this. So

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Speaker 2: when the first when this all first came out, as

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Speaker 2: you said, Andrew rumored to be the favorite, she sort

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Speaker 2: of slapped him on the wrist and there was this

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Speaker 2: discussion about stepping back. And he's widely been reported to

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Speaker 2: have been since then sitting in one of the many

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Speaker 2: manor houses on the Windsor estate watching TV. He likes,

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Speaker 2: apparently to watch planes land and take off like live footage.

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Speaker 4: Good on him. Isn't Charles trying to kick him out

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Speaker 4: of that house?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And riding his horses, right, So he's been doing that.

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Speaker 2: But anytime there's a royal event that he is allowed

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Speaker 2: to go to, he turns up, he tries to get

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Speaker 2: front and center, and he's been agitating to get back in.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that if Charles really disapproved of the

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Speaker 2: way his mum handled that and was disgusted by his

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Speaker 2: brother's actions, then the minute he became king, he could

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Speaker 2: have done this. He could have acted straight away, you know,

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Speaker 2: he could have said, I'm taking your titles, there's no

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Speaker 2: more public appearances for you. You're done. But he didn't.

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Speaker 2: He hasn't done that until the reporting around this story

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Speaker 2: has become so loud and so unavoidable, and the actions

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Speaker 2: are becoming more and more despicable. Well not the actions

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Speaker 2: that he clearly has been in broad him for a

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Speaker 2: long time, but now it's unavoidable. The story is unavoidable,

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Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? It's got to a

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Speaker 2: point where they can't pretend anymore. It feels so reactive

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Speaker 2: from the royals, don't you think, Amelia?

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Speaker 5: I do. I think there were two things that happened

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Speaker 5: last week that really prompted Charles to finally take action,

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Speaker 5: and by the way, the reporting seems to indicate that

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Speaker 5: William was the one who really had to pressure Charles

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Speaker 5: into doing this. Two events. The first event was, as

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Speaker 5: you mentioned, Virginia Giffra's biography. There was an excerpt published

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Speaker 5: in The Guardian and there was a particular phrase that

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Speaker 5: I just could not get over or get past. And

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Speaker 5: I think these are the words which finally made the

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Speaker 5: Palace listen to what Virginia has to say. And she

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Speaker 5: wrote he was friendly enough, but still entitled, as if

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Speaker 5: he believed having sex with me was his birthright. And

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Speaker 5: the reason why I think those words hit so heavy

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Speaker 5: is because he does have a birthright. Now, the birthright

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Speaker 5: is not to have sex with whoever he wants to

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Speaker 5: have sex with, but the nature of a royal family

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Speaker 5: is that he has a birthright. And that is why

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Speaker 5: he is sitting in his thirty room match and watching

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Speaker 5: the planes take off, and that is why he has

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Speaker 5: lived with wealth that we can never imagine his whole life,

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Speaker 5: because he does have a birthright. And that's why those words,

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Speaker 5: I think really affected people and prompted William. Perhaps as

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Speaker 5: the reporting goes to speak to Charles about how it

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Speaker 5: was untenable. The second thing that happened last week, and

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Speaker 5: this is a bit more cynical of me, is that

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Speaker 5: another scandal broke last week with Prince Andrew. He had

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Speaker 5: been meeting, it is alleged with senior Chinese Communist Party

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Speaker 5: officials who were clearly playing him. They knew that he

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Speaker 5: was a weak link in terms of the British Royal family.

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Speaker 5: So I hate to be cynical about it, but isn't

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Speaker 5: it interesting that we have been hearing about what he

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Speaker 5: allegedly did to Virginia Jiffray for years and it wasn't

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Speaker 5: until there was also a national security implication from Prince

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Speaker 5: Andrew's poor judgment him, that is him hanging out with

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Speaker 5: the Chinese Communist Party officials, that Charles finally felt compelled

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Speaker 5: to act.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we discussed this a few weeks ago

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Speaker 2: about how lesser royals are a real problem for the

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Speaker 2: monarchy because they want to be living in this style

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Speaker 2: of all their rich and fabulous friends, but they don't

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Speaker 2: actually get that public income anymore. And famously Charles has

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Speaker 2: whittled the list down a little bit. William by all

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Speaker 2: reporting is going to whittle it down even further about

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Speaker 2: who gets to still live high on the hog on

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Speaker 2: the public purses, they'd say, right, And the problem with

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Speaker 2: that is that it opens them up to all these

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Speaker 2: They go and sidle up to all kinds of unsavory

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Speaker 2: characters to try and get some money. And that seems

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Speaker 2: to be what Andrew was doing for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Charles himself has been accused of it before too, and

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Speaker 2: it was something that drove the Queen match. He was like,

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Speaker 2: why can't they just sit in their manor houses and

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Speaker 2: count the pheasants outside their windows, you know, And they're

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Speaker 2: off like taking bagfuls of cash from Saudi princes and

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Speaker 2: god knows what. And it just this reporting just makes me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, everybody who listens to this show knows I

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Speaker 2: love royal gossip, and I do. And I watched this family,

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Speaker 2: as I've said before, in the same kind of way

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Speaker 2: as I watch a soap opera. That's been going on

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Speaker 2: my entire life, you know. But as you pointed out, Amelia,

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Speaker 2: the birthright nature of this kind of privilege where I

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Speaker 2: can get away with whatever I want, I will always

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Speaker 2: be protected. There have always been problematic royals who get

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Speaker 2: shuffled away from the limelight. That attitude has prevailed for

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Speaker 2: a really long time. There's something encouraging maybe about the

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Speaker 2: fact that we're saying no, But as I say, it's

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Speaker 2: depressing that it's taken this level of scandal for Charles

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Speaker 2: to finally allegedly be all the reporting of things saying

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Speaker 2: he's furious. Well, why wasn't he furious two years ago,

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Speaker 2: five years ago, ten years ago.

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Speaker 3: It's funny because we're all for the monarchy modernizing, like

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Speaker 3: we want them to, you know, be up with us

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Speaker 3: in the moral choices that we make. They obviously are

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Speaker 3: still lacking in quite a few areas. But there's a

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Speaker 3: part of me that's like, if Andrew had done something

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Speaker 3: to this level that put the royal family, you know,

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Speaker 3: their reputation at risk one hundred years ago, he would

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Speaker 3: have been exiled. Like you know, we saw the queen's

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Speaker 3: father's brother when he abdicated, he was exiled to another country.

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Speaker 3: He was basically told he was never to play any

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Speaker 3: role and that guy was king for five minutes. He

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Speaker 3: was told never to play a role in royal life

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Speaker 3: ever again. So whilst they have modernized and they are

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Speaker 3: trying to do things by a modern standards. There's a

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Speaker 3: part of me that's like sometimes that old royal family

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Speaker 3: justice needs to come.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we're not.

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Speaker 3: Cutting anyone's heads off, let's not go that far. Should

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Speaker 3: probably slight disclaimer here. One of my relatives did cut

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Speaker 3: off the head of King Charles the first so just

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Speaker 3: spill that out there.

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Speaker 2: That's very impressive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so my mum is related to a man called

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Speaker 3: Oliver Cromwell, who is like a dirty name. So we

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Speaker 3: just don't really say that out loud, but you know,

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Speaker 3: not talking about secreting small kings away in towers until

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Speaker 3: they're never seen again.

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Speaker 4: Not that kind of stuff. But like, exile this.

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Speaker 3: Guy, get him out of the public's he has been

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Speaker 3: when he's allegedly done this awful thing, and he's been

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Speaker 3: in Cahood's with a guy who's known to have done

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Speaker 3: awful things, and that he definitely would have been aware

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Speaker 3: of at least some of the things that he was

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Speaker 3: up to, Like it would be hard pressed to be

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Speaker 3: that close to someone and not have any idea of

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Speaker 3: what they were doing.

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Speaker 2: But of course he knew. But I think they had.

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Speaker 2: They think that's what they've done. They think they have

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Speaker 2: exiled him. But the problem is is that until this

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Speaker 2: latest progression, So just to explain a little bit, he's

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Speaker 2: had the Duke of York taken from him as a

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Speaker 2: title that he's allowed to use, just as you said, Claire,

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Speaker 2: that Sarah Ferguson has too, But he hasn't had prince

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Speaker 2: taken from him because he actually can't have that taken

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Speaker 2: from him because it is his birthright. So just like

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Speaker 2: Prince Harry will always be a prince no matter what,

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Speaker 2: Prince Andrew will always be a prince no matter what.

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Speaker 2: And I think they think they have exiled him, and

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Speaker 2: as you mentioned, he's they're allegedly trying to shuffle him

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Speaker 2: into Frogmore Cottage, which is where Harry and Meg's.

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Speaker 4: Used to live, has had a nice renovation in time, had.

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Speaker 2: A lovely renovation. We heard all about sprung yoga studio floor.

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Speaker 2: But he doesn't want to do that. But he kind

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Speaker 2: of has been exiled. But now I think that the

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Speaker 2: vision of him at the Duchess of Kent's funeral, when

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Speaker 2: he was trying to cozy up to William and William

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Speaker 2: was absolutely blanking him, gave off this impression of this

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Speaker 2: completely unself aware bumbling, self pitying man who was like,

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Speaker 2: it's so unfair that I'm not allowed to hang around

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Speaker 2: in front of the cameras with my family anymore. That

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Speaker 2: will be off the table.

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Speaker 5: And I think the question that remains for me is

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Speaker 5: did Charles do this because he had become so quote

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Speaker 5: unquote furious or disgusted with Andrew's behavior, or did he

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Speaker 5: do it because he knows that the monarchy needs to

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Speaker 5: survive and that this kind of scandal, paired with the

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Speaker 5: Chinese Communist Party spying scandal, just can't work with the monarchy.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's always it isn't. And we know the Queen

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Speaker 3: was presented with these kind of dilemmas many times throughout

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Speaker 3: her time on the throne, and she did have to

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Speaker 3: make a choice sometimes that yes, the future of the

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Speaker 3: monarchy is what comes first, and that future does not

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Speaker 3: look good with Andrews still riding in carriages.

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Speaker 5: Kim Kardashian this past weekend attended something called the Academy

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Speaker 5: Museum Gala in Los Angeles, and she was something that

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Speaker 5: I found actively upsetting. Let me try and describe it

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Speaker 5: for you. It was a coture look, meaning that it

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Speaker 5: had been made especially for her by a French fashion

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Speaker 5: designer named Maison Margiella Come at Me French People, which

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Speaker 5: included for the second time, to say today they are

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Speaker 5: not happy with me. It included a mask which covered

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Speaker 5: Kim's entire face. As she was being led into the event.

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Speaker 5: You could actually see her flailing around with her arms

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Speaker 5: trying not to fall and I love this detail. There's

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Speaker 5: a tabloid called mirror Us. They went full investigative reporters

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Speaker 5: on this. They used video enhancement software to figure out

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Speaker 5: what she was saying to her assistant because she looked

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Speaker 5: incredibly panicked. But of course wearing the mask, you couldn't

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Speaker 5: tell what.

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Speaker 4: She was saying. You couldn't send the well or so

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Speaker 4: you think, Holly. They zoomed in and.

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Speaker 5: They had a lip read to figure out what she

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Speaker 5: was saying through the mesh mask, and it was don't

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Speaker 5: let go.

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Speaker 4: I can't see a thing.

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Speaker 5: So the dress itself, though, Holly, I know you you

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Speaker 5: actually found the dress even more disturbing than the mask.

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Speaker 4: The dress, how would you describe the dress?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the dress itself was also very much on trend,

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Speaker 2: with this tiny, tiny waist that I think we're going

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Speaker 2: to get to in a minute, but it almost looked

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Speaker 2: like it followed her ribs, and then it was so

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Speaker 2: painful looking.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot going on in fashion that is

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Speaker 5: really viscerally upsetting, and I find it.

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Speaker 2: Quite fun though, the idea that she's got to navigate

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Speaker 2: the whole party like surely.

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Speaker 3: At some stage though, she's going to be handed a

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Speaker 3: glass of champagne and.

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Speaker 2: Then well, I don't think so, because I listened to

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Speaker 2: her interview and call her daddy in Remember when she

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Speaker 2: wore the all black mask to the Matt Gala. Call her.

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Speaker 2: Alex Cooper asked her, come on, when you were inside,

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Speaker 2: you took it off, right? She said no, She committed

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Speaker 2: to the look. She didn't eat, she didn't drink, She

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Speaker 2: shouldn't look at anyone in the eye. I'm just this is

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Speaker 2: the least fun party of all ties.

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Speaker 4: Can I just mention too?

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Speaker 3: I know, like the waist of this dress you've described

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Speaker 3: as you know, something we all should be achieving, but

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Speaker 3: it looks edious. It's like they've pulled her in so

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Speaker 3: tight that like the flesh above it is having to

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Speaker 3: bulge out across the top of a corset, and that

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Speaker 3: looks like a It hurts and it does not look

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Speaker 3: pleasing to the eye. As far as like it has

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Speaker 3: beautiful sleeves, I'll give it that. The bottom of the

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Speaker 3: dress looks gorgeous. But then this mask that you're referring to,

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Speaker 3: it literally looked like this used to be a scarf

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Speaker 3: or a shawl, and they just kind of bloked it

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Speaker 3: over ahead and then put her big choker chain around it,

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Speaker 3: so now it's a mask.

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Speaker 4: It's just a scarf over her face.

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Speaker 3: Like I don't am am I into kitture fashion overly,

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Speaker 3: but I just feel like this is I don't know,

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Speaker 3: this isn't pleasing to look at clothes.

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Speaker 4: Well, this is what I want to talk about. Who

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Speaker 4: are these looks for?

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Speaker 5: And fashion is meant to be for women? Mostly high

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Speaker 5: fashion certainly runs on women's dollars and women's purchasing power.

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Speaker 5: But there was an interview I read recently with arguably

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Speaker 5: the world's most important fashion editor. Her name is Stella Bugby,

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Speaker 5: and she is the fashion editor at the New York Times,

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Speaker 5: and she wrote on her Instagram stories after Paris Fashion

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Speaker 5: Week this year, sometimes it feels like fashion hates women.

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Speaker 5: Now that we've been hearing lines like that from more

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Speaker 5: feminist explicitly feminist voices for a long time, but to

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Speaker 5: hear it from a fashion editor is really striking someone

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Speaker 5: on the inside exactly. And she included a couple of

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Speaker 5: examples which are really disturbing. Address without armholes so you're

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Speaker 5: trapped in it like a cocoon, aprons that are meant

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Speaker 5: to evoke trad wives. And then what I found most

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Speaker 5: disturbing a metal contraption that you put in your mouth

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Speaker 5: that forces your mouth open and you cannot close your

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Speaker 5: mouth while you're wearing it. And she said, look, fashion's

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Speaker 5: always pushed the envelope. There's always been unwearable things on

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Speaker 5: the runway. We know this, but what she felt was

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Speaker 5: different this year was a sense of active hatred of women,

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Speaker 5: the very people who were meant to be wearing these clothes.

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Speaker 5: So my question for you, Claire is, given that high

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Speaker 5: fashion does run on women's money, why how can it

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Speaker 5: make good business sense to repel women?

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Speaker 3: I guess this you need to kind of zoom out

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Speaker 3: a little bit and look at where the world is

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Speaker 3: politically right now too, because there is obviously a move

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Speaker 3: towards a far right ideology in many places the US,

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Speaker 3: which is you know, tends to be the center of

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Speaker 3: where the lot of this fashion becomes public for us

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Speaker 3: to consume. And the tradwife movement has become huge online.

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Speaker 3: And so there is this move and there is something

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Speaker 3: called the Mara Lago face, which is you know, plastic

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Speaker 3: surgery that a lot of the women who are especially

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Speaker 3: in and around Trump's camp a or of doing. It

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Speaker 3: feels like there's a movement. And this has happened in

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Speaker 3: history before. When women become too outspoken, maybe in too

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Speaker 3: many leadership positions for the liking of certain aspects of

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Speaker 3: the community. That then there is a shift, and that's

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Speaker 3: when women get skinnier, where they are looking at controlling

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Speaker 3: women more. Where if we can put you in a

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Speaker 3: mask where no one can see your face, where you

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Speaker 3: can barely speak to people, that is a statement which

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Speaker 3: is about silencing a woman. When you put her in

436
00:21:36,034 --> 00:21:38,074
Speaker 3: a dress with no arms, you're essentially putting her in

437
00:21:38,114 --> 00:21:40,394
Speaker 3: a straight jacket and constricting her and she can no

438
00:21:40,514 --> 00:21:41,714
Speaker 3: longer be free to move.

439
00:21:42,234 --> 00:21:43,114
Speaker 4: You know, when women of the.

440
00:21:43,074 --> 00:21:46,273
Speaker 3: Suffragette moment started wearing pants, you know, it was like,

441
00:21:46,474 --> 00:21:49,354
Speaker 3: how dare they have this freedom to ride a bicycle

442
00:21:49,554 --> 00:21:52,114
Speaker 3: with ease? Like it's the same kind of vibe, except

443
00:21:52,154 --> 00:21:55,033
Speaker 3: in reverse, where you restrict women in the things that

444
00:21:55,074 --> 00:21:58,514
Speaker 3: they wear, and then they have to focus on teetering

445
00:21:58,554 --> 00:22:00,794
Speaker 3: around on heels that might break their ankles or never

446
00:22:00,834 --> 00:22:04,154
Speaker 3: sitting down comfortably. That becomes their focus rather than the

447
00:22:04,194 --> 00:22:09,674
Speaker 3: focus of leading a company or being outspoken about women's rights.

448
00:22:09,674 --> 00:22:13,194
Speaker 3: Like it feels like there is a real political statement

449
00:22:13,834 --> 00:22:16,874
Speaker 3: in dressing women in a way that makes them so uncomfortable.

450
00:22:17,034 --> 00:22:20,034
Speaker 2: It's interesting because I'm not a fashion reporter. Obviously you'll

451
00:22:20,034 --> 00:22:22,314
Speaker 2: all be surprised to hear because you see me every day.

452
00:22:22,434 --> 00:22:25,354
Speaker 3: It would be you're fashionable, Hulley, I'm super fashionable.

453
00:22:25,794 --> 00:22:29,794
Speaker 2: But one of the interesting things about this is that

454
00:22:30,234 --> 00:22:32,834
Speaker 2: this season that we've just seen, that you've been describing

455
00:22:33,034 --> 00:22:37,353
Speaker 2: with these very quite shocking looks, also coincides with some

456
00:22:37,394 --> 00:22:40,554
Speaker 2: of the key labels going back to having male heads

457
00:22:40,714 --> 00:22:43,314
Speaker 2: of their design. It's like the dudes are back in charge.

458
00:22:43,394 --> 00:22:46,274
Speaker 2: So those houses have gone back to men, and it's

459
00:22:46,314 --> 00:22:48,714
Speaker 2: like they're back in charge of the Mojo Dojo Kassa house,

460
00:22:48,754 --> 00:22:52,114
Speaker 2: and now they want these ridiculous They're back to torturing

461
00:22:52,154 --> 00:22:53,394
Speaker 2: women in the way that they used to be. So

462
00:22:53,434 --> 00:22:55,594
Speaker 2: women are getting smaller as you've already said, Claire. And

463
00:22:55,674 --> 00:22:57,594
Speaker 2: also there's this trend of the tiny waiste that we

464
00:22:57,634 --> 00:23:00,674
Speaker 2: saw on Kim Kardashian, and it's called, you know, a

465
00:23:00,794 --> 00:23:03,754
Speaker 2: wasp waist, an ant waist, or a barbie waste, which

466
00:23:03,794 --> 00:23:06,194
Speaker 2: seems to be appropriate because it's so tiny that there's

467
00:23:06,194 --> 00:23:09,033
Speaker 2: no room for the woman's actual organs, a bit like

468
00:23:09,074 --> 00:23:12,834
Speaker 2: a doll. And that is actually being achieved, not necessarily

469
00:23:12,834 --> 00:23:15,273
Speaker 2: on the catwalks, because we've also seen this return to

470
00:23:15,354 --> 00:23:18,793
Speaker 2: really really skinny models who can wear all these things anyway,

471
00:23:19,234 --> 00:23:23,033
Speaker 2: but we've seen a rise in a particular kind of

472
00:23:23,034 --> 00:23:25,674
Speaker 2: plastic surgery that removes float what they call the floating

473
00:23:25,754 --> 00:23:28,114
Speaker 2: ribs eleventh and twelve ribs. The New York Times have

474
00:23:28,154 --> 00:23:31,354
Speaker 2: written about this. The New York Magazine has written about this.

475
00:23:31,834 --> 00:23:36,594
Speaker 2: Is that reclaiming the waist is kind of Any woman

476
00:23:36,634 --> 00:23:38,274
Speaker 2: will know that one of the things that will go

477
00:23:38,394 --> 00:23:40,514
Speaker 2: when your live shifts, maybe you have a baby, maybe

478
00:23:40,554 --> 00:23:42,834
Speaker 2: you age, maybe your hormones are moving around, is your waist.

479
00:23:43,434 --> 00:23:46,714
Speaker 2: So having a really defined waist is a symbol of

480
00:23:46,754 --> 00:23:51,874
Speaker 2: something youth, discipline, all of those things, and it's back

481
00:23:51,914 --> 00:23:53,714
Speaker 2: in a big way and in a way that women

482
00:23:53,754 --> 00:23:58,434
Speaker 2: are actually harming themselves to achieve. None of this is

483
00:23:58,514 --> 00:24:00,874
Speaker 2: very fun, and I thought fashion was meant to be fun.

484
00:24:00,954 --> 00:24:03,634
Speaker 5: But the thing I'm struggling with a bit here is

485
00:24:03,674 --> 00:24:06,234
Speaker 5: it's kind of convenient to blame it on the man,

486
00:24:06,394 --> 00:24:08,434
Speaker 5: to blame it on MAGA, or to blame it on

487
00:24:08,474 --> 00:24:12,553
Speaker 5: the male fashion designers. And Stella says that it's not

488
00:24:12,834 --> 00:24:16,474
Speaker 5: just about that. She talked about the ozemplification of the runway.

489
00:24:16,594 --> 00:24:18,154
Speaker 5: She said, I don't want to feel like I have

490
00:24:18,274 --> 00:24:20,793
Speaker 5: to get plastic surgery or go on a pill in

491
00:24:20,874 --> 00:24:23,154
Speaker 5: order to participate in this world. She said, there's no

492
00:24:23,194 --> 00:24:24,394
Speaker 5: attempts at body positivity.

493
00:24:24,474 --> 00:24:26,434
Speaker 2: Yeah. To be honest, I've always felt that, haven't you,

494
00:24:26,594 --> 00:24:28,914
Speaker 2: That like high fashion is not for me because I'm

495
00:24:28,914 --> 00:24:31,874
Speaker 2: not hard Anna size zero.

496
00:24:32,114 --> 00:24:33,954
Speaker 4: Well, yes, I think to some extent.

497
00:24:33,994 --> 00:24:36,914
Speaker 5: But I'm seeing it trickle down not just from the catwalk,

498
00:24:36,954 --> 00:24:40,074
Speaker 5: but also, for instance, at that Academy gala where Kim was,

499
00:24:40,474 --> 00:24:43,553
Speaker 5: the thing that I noticed was that every woman around

500
00:24:43,554 --> 00:24:46,954
Speaker 5: my age and I'm around the age of forty, they

501
00:24:46,994 --> 00:24:52,714
Speaker 5: all looked exactly the same. Jennifer Lawrence, Alison Brie, Mandy Moore,

502
00:24:52,794 --> 00:24:55,994
Speaker 5: Emma Stone. These women are very powerful women in Hollywood.

503
00:24:56,034 --> 00:24:59,434
Speaker 5: They don't need to conform to a particular ideal. In fact,

504
00:24:59,434 --> 00:25:03,154
Speaker 5: they got famous looking a particular way, looking a unique,

505
00:25:03,194 --> 00:25:05,834
Speaker 5: particular way. They had something that no one else had,

506
00:25:06,154 --> 00:25:08,394
Speaker 5: And now all of these women look the same. Their

507
00:25:08,434 --> 00:25:11,394
Speaker 5: features had the same prominent cheekbones, They've all got these

508
00:25:11,434 --> 00:25:15,434
Speaker 5: cat like eyes, They've all got Dakota Johnson fringes. I think, incidentally,

509
00:25:15,474 --> 00:25:18,234
Speaker 5: she's very much the paragon of this particular look. It's

510
00:25:18,314 --> 00:25:21,274
Speaker 5: very refined. It's giving their po baby, it's giving privilege, and.

511
00:25:21,234 --> 00:25:24,154
Speaker 2: She's also kind of ageless. I don't know how old Dakota.

512
00:25:24,434 --> 00:25:25,434
Speaker 4: She hasn't had children.

513
00:25:25,554 --> 00:25:27,513
Speaker 5: I think that's another thing that all these women have

514
00:25:27,554 --> 00:25:29,593
Speaker 5: in common, is that they had children and then decided

515
00:25:29,594 --> 00:25:32,954
Speaker 5: to come back looking completely different. So I'm wondering why

516
00:25:32,954 --> 00:25:35,234
Speaker 5: they all got this memo, what the memo said, and

517
00:25:35,274 --> 00:25:37,394
Speaker 5: why these women who actually have a lot of power.

518
00:25:37,554 --> 00:25:40,793
Speaker 5: These are not random influences. These are Academy Award winners.

519
00:25:40,794 --> 00:25:42,914
Speaker 5: These are women who have been in Hollywood for decades.

520
00:25:43,234 --> 00:25:45,553
Speaker 5: Why are they feeling the need to conform to a

521
00:25:45,594 --> 00:25:46,513
Speaker 5: particular look.

522
00:25:47,314 --> 00:25:49,874
Speaker 2: It feels sometimes we lived through a blip for a

523
00:25:49,874 --> 00:25:53,114
Speaker 2: hot minute where there was some attempts at body diversity

524
00:25:53,274 --> 00:25:56,514
Speaker 2: on both red carpets and fashion.

525
00:25:56,554 --> 00:25:58,474
Speaker 3: It was the twenty tens that was it, right, But

526
00:25:58,514 --> 00:26:01,514
Speaker 3: it's terrifying that the most diverse runway show we've seen

527
00:26:01,514 --> 00:26:05,714
Speaker 3: of Ladies The Victorious Secret, Yes, like that is whild

528
00:26:05,714 --> 00:26:07,794
Speaker 3: that that is the most diverse we've got right now.

529
00:26:08,154 --> 00:26:10,513
Speaker 2: It did, and it feels like maybe it's like we

530
00:26:10,554 --> 00:26:12,954
Speaker 2: lived through a blip where people were like, oh, we

531
00:26:13,034 --> 00:26:15,914
Speaker 2: need to address this, and now there's been a big

532
00:26:15,994 --> 00:26:18,314
Speaker 2: pushback on it, and it's like, no, we don't.

533
00:26:18,794 --> 00:26:19,513
Speaker 4: And I don't know.

534
00:26:19,554 --> 00:26:21,954
Speaker 2: It's really hard, as we often talk about on this show,

535
00:26:22,274 --> 00:26:25,793
Speaker 2: to address the individual women that you listed there, because

536
00:26:26,434 --> 00:26:29,874
Speaker 2: I know that those women who were all sort of

537
00:26:31,034 --> 00:26:33,553
Speaker 2: fated for being on jenuse in a way, you know,

538
00:26:33,554 --> 00:26:36,194
Speaker 2: think about Jennifer Lawrence is an absolute classic example of

539
00:26:36,234 --> 00:26:38,833
Speaker 2: this when you think about it, her youth, when she

540
00:26:38,914 --> 00:26:40,793
Speaker 2: was stumbling up the stairs at the Oscars and stuff

541
00:26:41,114 --> 00:26:44,834
Speaker 2: and like giggling at Jack Nicholson and things was very

542
00:26:44,914 --> 00:26:46,954
Speaker 2: much part of her appeal.

543
00:26:47,074 --> 00:26:47,794
Speaker 4: That's so true.

544
00:26:48,474 --> 00:26:52,914
Speaker 2: This sort of wide eyed, slightly incredulous, innocent with their

545
00:26:52,954 --> 00:26:56,273
Speaker 2: wicked sense of humor felt very twenty two, do you

546
00:26:56,314 --> 00:26:57,874
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like as in she was twenty

547
00:26:57,874 --> 00:27:01,674
Speaker 2: two not the year, and all women as they age

548
00:27:01,674 --> 00:27:03,794
Speaker 2: wrestle with this like how much do I find it?

549
00:27:03,874 --> 00:27:06,114
Speaker 2: How much do I lean in? And these women are

550
00:27:06,194 --> 00:27:09,194
Speaker 2: under an amount of pressure that most of us can

551
00:27:09,274 --> 00:27:10,674
Speaker 2: only imagine, although.

552
00:27:10,514 --> 00:27:12,553
Speaker 4: Well, we're on YouTube, so we can imagine.

553
00:27:12,554 --> 00:27:15,074
Speaker 2: Well, that's true, we can imagine, And in fact, everybody's

554
00:27:15,074 --> 00:27:17,194
Speaker 2: on Instagram and everybody's being filmed all the time, and

555
00:27:17,234 --> 00:27:19,353
Speaker 2: everybody's in their photos with their friends and going not

556
00:27:19,394 --> 00:27:21,594
Speaker 2: that on this one, so we all feel a level

557
00:27:21,594 --> 00:27:23,674
Speaker 2: of that pressure. But I think the women that you've

558
00:27:23,714 --> 00:27:26,754
Speaker 2: just listed, as you've said, they're coming back in inverted

559
00:27:26,754 --> 00:27:30,554
Speaker 2: commas after maybe a career break, and they're like, I'm

560
00:27:30,554 --> 00:27:32,434
Speaker 2: the engineer. I've got to stick there, whether or not

561
00:27:32,514 --> 00:27:35,553
Speaker 2: that's them or whether that's the industry telling them. But

562
00:27:35,634 --> 00:27:37,954
Speaker 2: it does all feel very much like there was a

563
00:27:38,074 --> 00:27:41,553
Speaker 2: moment maybe we grabbed onto it too hard, where we

564
00:27:41,554 --> 00:27:44,914
Speaker 2: were like, oh, you know, the things are looking different

565
00:27:44,954 --> 00:27:47,274
Speaker 2: in fashion, things looking different on the red carpet. There's

566
00:27:47,314 --> 00:27:49,553
Speaker 2: a bit more body diversity, even if it feels a

567
00:27:49,554 --> 00:27:52,954
Speaker 2: bit token at times. And now it's like absolutely not,

568
00:27:53,114 --> 00:27:55,833
Speaker 2: we are right back to original program.

569
00:27:55,834 --> 00:27:58,434
Speaker 5: Well, and like you said, it's just not fun, And

570
00:27:58,634 --> 00:28:00,994
Speaker 5: the whole point of fashion is to sell me something,

571
00:28:01,034 --> 00:28:03,154
Speaker 5: and I'm looking at all these women who look exactly

572
00:28:03,194 --> 00:28:04,794
Speaker 5: the same. First of all, I can't have a fringe.

573
00:28:04,834 --> 00:28:07,114
Speaker 5: It's actually a crime against humanity for someone with hair

574
00:28:07,274 --> 00:28:08,914
Speaker 5: as curly as mine to attempt to fringe.

575
00:28:08,914 --> 00:28:11,513
Speaker 4: So that's out of the question. I can't have a fringe.

576
00:28:11,874 --> 00:28:13,834
Speaker 5: I can't wear the dress of no sleeves because how

577
00:28:13,874 --> 00:28:15,594
Speaker 5: would I get on the bus and tap my card?

578
00:28:15,954 --> 00:28:18,194
Speaker 5: So what am I meant to buy from all of this?

579
00:28:18,314 --> 00:28:20,834
Speaker 5: Where is the fun stuff, the beautiful stuff that is

580
00:28:20,874 --> 00:28:22,634
Speaker 5: meant to be something that I aspire to.

581
00:28:22,954 --> 00:28:26,154
Speaker 4: Maybe that's the thing is that they're keeping it separate. Again.

582
00:28:26,234 --> 00:28:30,474
Speaker 3: Remember when body diversity was at the forefront, it was

583
00:28:30,514 --> 00:28:34,314
Speaker 3: more accessible, and then there were designers who came out

584
00:28:34,354 --> 00:28:38,154
Speaker 3: and were actually saying, I don't want people of diverse

585
00:28:38,194 --> 00:28:40,114
Speaker 3: bodies to wear my clothes.

586
00:28:40,314 --> 00:28:42,354
Speaker 2: Carl Lagafeld famously said yes.

587
00:28:42,514 --> 00:28:44,954
Speaker 3: So maybe this is a step back to that, where

588
00:28:44,954 --> 00:28:47,834
Speaker 3: they're saying I want my clothes to be seen on

589
00:28:47,874 --> 00:28:51,314
Speaker 3: a certain body type and it's not yours. So we

590
00:28:51,474 --> 00:28:54,994
Speaker 3: are left to make decisions from a different catwalk.

591
00:28:55,154 --> 00:28:56,274
Speaker 4: Definitely not these ones.

592
00:28:57,234 --> 00:28:59,394
Speaker 2: I just need to pick myself up because, as you

593
00:28:59,474 --> 00:29:01,474
Speaker 2: made the point, Amelia, when I was talking about the

594
00:29:01,514 --> 00:29:05,154
Speaker 2: men being back in control at Diorchanelle, there isn't a

595
00:29:05,194 --> 00:29:07,954
Speaker 2: single woman in charge of a main fuse. And you said,

596
00:29:08,314 --> 00:29:10,074
Speaker 2: but we can't just blame it on them, and you're right,

597
00:29:10,114 --> 00:29:12,514
Speaker 2: because there's a very good example that we spoke about

598
00:29:12,554 --> 00:29:15,234
Speaker 2: last week, which is Victoria Beckham, who is the woman

599
00:29:15,234 --> 00:29:18,274
Speaker 2: who is at the head of her own eponymous label,

600
00:29:18,434 --> 00:29:21,434
Speaker 2: and Stella McCartney is the other one who's notable. But

601
00:29:21,554 --> 00:29:25,594
Speaker 2: we know that Victoria Beckham also likes her models incredibly skinny.

602
00:29:26,034 --> 00:29:29,514
Speaker 2: Fashion designers do hate women in a way because they

603
00:29:29,554 --> 00:29:33,114
Speaker 2: get in the way of their clothes. Their inconvenient bodies,

604
00:29:33,154 --> 00:29:36,554
Speaker 2: with their inconvenient flesh gets in the way of their clothes.

605
00:29:36,594 --> 00:29:38,714
Speaker 2: And seeing these shots that you were talking about before,

606
00:29:38,714 --> 00:29:42,194
Speaker 2: where models are wearing masks, models are unrecognizable, it's like,

607
00:29:42,274 --> 00:29:45,554
Speaker 2: don't look at her, look at my clothes. Maybe it's

608
00:29:45,554 --> 00:29:47,474
Speaker 2: also a reaction to when the models got too big

609
00:29:47,474 --> 00:29:49,794
Speaker 2: for their boots and they became more famous than the clothes.

610
00:29:49,834 --> 00:29:52,234
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's interesting, but on the fun fact,

611
00:29:52,994 --> 00:29:55,274
Speaker 2: I think we have to hold on to the absurdity

612
00:29:55,834 --> 00:29:59,474
Speaker 2: of watching Kim Kardashian with a mask over a face

613
00:29:59,554 --> 00:30:01,634
Speaker 2: or a scarf over a face, as you've pointed out. Yeah,

614
00:30:02,354 --> 00:30:05,034
Speaker 2: being interviewed on the Red carpet and talking through her

615
00:30:05,074 --> 00:30:09,314
Speaker 2: mask about her pubic wigs that we discussed last week,

616
00:30:09,634 --> 00:30:12,034
Speaker 2: Like if we cannot all hold hands and laugh at that,

617
00:30:12,554 --> 00:30:13,874
Speaker 2: then we really have lost it.

618
00:30:14,154 --> 00:30:15,674
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm sorry to the French.

619
00:30:16,314 --> 00:30:18,474
Speaker 2: I learned a new term this weekend, which is always

620
00:30:18,514 --> 00:30:20,754
Speaker 2: one of my favorite things to do. I spent the

621
00:30:20,754 --> 00:30:23,194
Speaker 2: weekend in Perth by the way, Beautiful Perth, Lovely Perth

622
00:30:23,274 --> 00:30:25,434
Speaker 2: wages at the Festival of Fiction. It was great. I

623
00:30:25,514 --> 00:30:27,434
Speaker 2: met lots of great people and one of these people

624
00:30:28,314 --> 00:30:30,034
Speaker 2: told me a new term. She was giving me a

625
00:30:30,034 --> 00:30:33,834
Speaker 2: lift somewhere to the airport to go home, and she said, oh,

626
00:30:33,914 --> 00:30:37,754
Speaker 2: this is a trip trap. And I was like, what's

627
00:30:37,874 --> 00:30:40,594
Speaker 2: a trip trap? And she said, well, you know when

628
00:30:41,074 --> 00:30:43,674
Speaker 2: you give someone a ride. And this is particularly relevant

629
00:30:44,034 --> 00:30:47,394
Speaker 2: to parents with children, or maybe it's your partner and

630
00:30:47,394 --> 00:30:49,714
Speaker 2: there's something you need to talk about. But parents with

631
00:30:49,794 --> 00:30:52,554
Speaker 2: children who get to that adolescent age, and everybody says,

632
00:30:52,594 --> 00:30:55,714
Speaker 2: the best place to have a difficult conversation is the car. Yes,

633
00:30:56,194 --> 00:30:58,634
Speaker 2: that's where because everybody's looking ahead. They don't have to

634
00:30:58,634 --> 00:31:02,234
Speaker 2: do eye contact. They can't escape. It's a trip trap

635
00:31:02,594 --> 00:31:05,474
Speaker 2: because you're trapping them on your trip to talk about

636
00:31:05,474 --> 00:31:08,634
Speaker 2: something important. And this lady was saying to meet when

637
00:31:08,634 --> 00:31:10,594
Speaker 2: she drives her husband somewhere now, and then she gets

638
00:31:10,634 --> 00:31:12,474
Speaker 2: in and he gets in and she's kind of like,

639
00:31:13,754 --> 00:31:14,754
Speaker 2: so we really.

640
00:31:14,514 --> 00:31:14,954
Speaker 4: Need to talk.

641
00:31:15,034 --> 00:31:16,914
Speaker 2: He's like, Ah, this is a trip trap.

642
00:31:17,434 --> 00:31:18,554
Speaker 4: That's brilliant.

643
00:31:19,114 --> 00:31:21,554
Speaker 3: I also do this to my friends when I know

644
00:31:21,714 --> 00:31:25,674
Speaker 3: that they are driving to school pickup, like because we

645
00:31:25,674 --> 00:31:27,794
Speaker 3: don't live in the same state anymore. I know what

646
00:31:27,874 --> 00:31:30,594
Speaker 3: time they're in the car, and we'll answer my call

647
00:31:31,194 --> 00:31:33,754
Speaker 3: and they're there by themselves with no distractions until the

648
00:31:33,834 --> 00:31:36,074
Speaker 3: kids get in. And one of my friends in particular

649
00:31:36,154 --> 00:31:38,834
Speaker 3: lives in quite a remote area, so her trip to

650
00:31:38,834 --> 00:31:41,274
Speaker 3: school is like an hour, so I know I get

651
00:31:41,314 --> 00:31:43,874
Speaker 3: her for like a full hour on the phone with

652
00:31:43,954 --> 00:31:47,114
Speaker 3: no distractions. She can't work, she can't log into anything,

653
00:31:47,194 --> 00:31:48,274
Speaker 3: she can't scroll a thing.

654
00:31:48,554 --> 00:31:51,234
Speaker 4: I have her full attention. I love. I didn't have

655
00:31:51,274 --> 00:31:53,274
Speaker 4: a name for it, but I love a trip trap.

656
00:31:54,074 --> 00:31:57,714
Speaker 5: It also makes me think tangentially of when you're dating.

657
00:31:57,834 --> 00:32:00,034
Speaker 5: I think it's always easier to sit at the bar

658
00:32:00,434 --> 00:32:03,754
Speaker 5: rather than sit facing each other, because eye contact is

659
00:32:03,794 --> 00:32:06,714
Speaker 5: such an intimacy killer in a way, it makes everyone

660
00:32:06,754 --> 00:32:08,034
Speaker 5: scared to speak.

661
00:32:07,754 --> 00:32:12,794
Speaker 2: An awkquent after the break the last word in last

662
00:32:12,794 --> 00:32:15,354
Speaker 2: words from a TV show that might just be a

663
00:32:15,354 --> 00:32:22,634
Speaker 2: good idea for real life too. One unlimited out loud access.

664
00:32:22,794 --> 00:32:26,794
Speaker 2: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma

665
00:32:26,874 --> 00:32:29,514
Speaker 2: Mere subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to

666
00:32:29,554 --> 00:32:32,154
Speaker 2: get us in your ears five days a week. And

667
00:32:32,194 --> 00:32:37,634
Speaker 2: a huge thank you to all our current subscribers. So

668
00:32:37,674 --> 00:32:41,394
Speaker 2: I need to talk to you about something I basically tied.

669
00:32:42,794 --> 00:32:45,434
Speaker 4: Chare I did I trip trapped you? Last week?

670
00:32:45,474 --> 00:32:48,434
Speaker 2: We had to go we were going to do a

671
00:32:48,474 --> 00:32:50,754
Speaker 2: show at south By Southwest and we shared a cap

672
00:32:50,954 --> 00:32:53,474
Speaker 2: and so you were trip trapped and I tune your

673
00:32:53,474 --> 00:32:56,514
Speaker 2: ear off about this this show. So there's a new

674
00:32:56,514 --> 00:33:00,034
Speaker 2: show on Netflix and it's called Famous Last Words, right,

675
00:33:00,194 --> 00:33:02,794
Speaker 2: and it is? And yes, I'm also trip trapping you

676
00:33:02,874 --> 00:33:06,394
Speaker 2: into a discussion discussion that's adjacent to my friend Gwyneth Paltrop.

677
00:33:06,434 --> 00:33:08,394
Speaker 4: Oh okay, I see because.

678
00:33:08,274 --> 00:33:12,354
Speaker 2: The creator and host of this show is her husband, Brad.

679
00:33:12,514 --> 00:33:17,874
Speaker 2: The seconds will always refer to him. That actually known

680
00:33:17,914 --> 00:33:19,554
Speaker 2: as Brad Falchuk, who.

681
00:33:19,354 --> 00:33:23,274
Speaker 4: Is the Duke of Montecito by some accounts, Yes, and.

682
00:33:23,274 --> 00:33:26,514
Speaker 2: He is a TV showrunner. I think he's responsible for

683
00:33:26,554 --> 00:33:30,274
Speaker 2: Glee American Horror Story. He's like quite a big deal, right,

684
00:33:30,754 --> 00:33:33,634
Speaker 2: and he's notoriously handsome, but we'll get to that in

685
00:33:33,634 --> 00:33:38,634
Speaker 2: a minute. Anyway, the show is it's an interview show,

686
00:33:38,954 --> 00:33:42,714
Speaker 2: but the idea is that he is interviewed very famous,

687
00:33:43,034 --> 00:33:47,354
Speaker 2: very very old people and this is their last ever interview.

688
00:33:47,554 --> 00:33:50,674
Speaker 2: They've built purpose built a studio where there are cameras everywhere,

689
00:33:50,714 --> 00:33:52,874
Speaker 2: but no camera people in the room, so that it's

690
00:33:52,914 --> 00:33:57,074
Speaker 2: a completely intimate setting, just handsome Brad and the celebrity

691
00:33:57,314 --> 00:34:00,674
Speaker 2: in question, and they have a very intimate conversation. The

692
00:34:01,434 --> 00:34:03,954
Speaker 2: celebrity or the famous person is allowed to request any

693
00:34:04,034 --> 00:34:07,794
Speaker 2: drink they want, any props they want to sacilitate this.

694
00:34:08,314 --> 00:34:11,913
Speaker 2: And then at the end of the interview, Hanson Brad

695
00:34:11,994 --> 00:34:15,634
Speaker 2: leaves the room and the celebrity talks director camera in

696
00:34:15,674 --> 00:34:18,234
Speaker 2: their famous last words. Now, the thing that makes this

697
00:34:18,834 --> 00:34:22,794
Speaker 2: interesting is that the show does not air until that

698
00:34:22,834 --> 00:34:26,794
Speaker 2: person is dead, so that's why it's called Famous Last Words.

699
00:34:27,394 --> 00:34:30,154
Speaker 2: It is based on a Danish show, so it wasn't

700
00:34:30,194 --> 00:34:32,674
Speaker 2: Brad's idea. It's based on a Danish show called The

701
00:34:32,754 --> 00:34:35,714
Speaker 2: Last Word, which has been very successful in Denmark, and

702
00:34:35,794 --> 00:34:38,513
Speaker 2: apparently there it's got to the kind of cultural level

703
00:34:38,514 --> 00:34:41,554
Speaker 2: where when a big public figure passes away, everybody goes, oh,

704
00:34:41,674 --> 00:34:42,993
Speaker 2: I hope they did one of these.

705
00:34:43,514 --> 00:34:44,354
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that.

706
00:34:44,594 --> 00:34:46,594
Speaker 2: So the thing that blows my mind about this, well,

707
00:34:46,594 --> 00:34:48,114
Speaker 2: there are many things, and we're going to discuss it,

708
00:34:48,154 --> 00:34:51,194
Speaker 2: but is the idea? So Netflix is showing this When

709
00:34:51,274 --> 00:34:53,034
Speaker 2: Brad goes to them and goes, I've got this idea,

710
00:34:53,234 --> 00:34:55,354
Speaker 2: they've got no idea. If this show is going to

711
00:34:55,354 --> 00:34:57,554
Speaker 2: be on once a week, well it's definitely not going

712
00:34:57,594 --> 00:34:59,394
Speaker 2: to be on once a week, but once a month,

713
00:34:59,514 --> 00:35:01,714
Speaker 2: twice a year, five times a year, not at all,

714
00:35:01,794 --> 00:35:04,634
Speaker 2: because they interview, put it in the can and hold

715
00:35:04,634 --> 00:35:06,754
Speaker 2: on to it until somebody is dead.

716
00:35:07,154 --> 00:35:08,714
Speaker 4: There are ways that they could get around that, but

717
00:35:09,514 --> 00:35:11,074
Speaker 4: that would be illegal.

718
00:35:11,314 --> 00:35:13,234
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, what do you think?

719
00:35:13,714 --> 00:35:15,993
Speaker 5: So you trip trapped me to tell me about this?

720
00:35:16,234 --> 00:35:18,034
Speaker 5: And it was all I could think of. So I

721
00:35:18,154 --> 00:35:19,834
Speaker 5: went home and I watched the show.

722
00:35:20,114 --> 00:35:21,274
Speaker 2: So the first one is.

723
00:35:21,394 --> 00:35:25,114
Speaker 5: The first one is with Jane Goodall, the renowned scientist

724
00:35:25,314 --> 00:35:30,634
Speaker 5: and primatologist, And here's my first impression, Brad is as

725
00:35:30,714 --> 00:35:33,554
Speaker 5: about a good an interviewer as you could imagine from

726
00:35:33,554 --> 00:35:37,274
Speaker 5: someone called Brad, which is to say, not great. He's

727
00:35:37,314 --> 00:35:41,234
Speaker 5: not a great interviewer. But here's here's what I will say.

728
00:35:41,314 --> 00:35:43,674
Speaker 5: I get the Brad thing now. I never got way

729
00:35:43,714 --> 00:35:46,433
Speaker 5: Gwyneth was making the boyfriend breakfast for Brad. I never

730
00:35:46,474 --> 00:35:50,514
Speaker 5: fully understood the appeal of Brad the second but seeing

731
00:35:50,634 --> 00:35:53,594
Speaker 5: him and his warm smile and his kind eyes and

732
00:35:53,594 --> 00:35:55,634
Speaker 5: his share collar sweater, I'm.

733
00:35:55,514 --> 00:35:58,794
Speaker 4: Kind of in love with Brad, the only boy. Okay.

734
00:35:59,194 --> 00:36:02,114
Speaker 2: The only thing I don't like about Brad is that Cardigan.

735
00:36:02,554 --> 00:36:03,314
Speaker 4: If I was quit.

736
00:36:04,474 --> 00:36:06,554
Speaker 2: If I was quitted and he was swearing that to

737
00:36:06,594 --> 00:36:09,594
Speaker 2: go out Phil his show, I'd be like, Darling, No,

738
00:36:10,314 --> 00:36:13,674
Speaker 2: I would spill some coffee on it. They would accidentally

739
00:36:13,914 --> 00:36:18,074
Speaker 2: rip it with my boyfriend breakfast scissors. Anyway. The thing

740
00:36:18,114 --> 00:36:20,634
Speaker 2: that's interesting about this is the secrecy that surrounds it too,

741
00:36:20,754 --> 00:36:23,634
Speaker 2: because she sat him down and interviewed him on her show,

742
00:36:23,754 --> 00:36:26,033
Speaker 2: and she was like, tell me who you've interviewed, because

743
00:36:26,034 --> 00:36:29,274
Speaker 2: she said that Jane good Or was the last one,

744
00:36:29,754 --> 00:36:31,754
Speaker 2: the last one to be filmed, but the first one out.

745
00:36:31,794 --> 00:36:33,794
Speaker 2: Because they've got no control of it. We've got a

746
00:36:33,834 --> 00:36:35,873
Speaker 2: little grab of her asking him about it.

747
00:36:36,234 --> 00:36:39,554
Speaker 3: Interestingly, the first episode to air was actually the last

748
00:36:39,554 --> 00:36:40,314
Speaker 3: one that you shot.

749
00:36:40,794 --> 00:36:41,274
Speaker 4: You shot it?

750
00:36:41,394 --> 00:36:42,314
Speaker 2: When when was it?

751
00:36:42,794 --> 00:36:43,714
Speaker 1: You shot that in March?

752
00:36:43,754 --> 00:36:46,873
Speaker 2: So really recently, and you're not at liberty to say

753
00:36:46,914 --> 00:36:49,234
Speaker 2: the other people I am not never will.

754
00:36:49,674 --> 00:36:53,594
Speaker 4: Let's guess Jane Fonder for sure, of course.

755
00:36:53,554 --> 00:36:56,073
Speaker 2: So it's people in their nineties famous, but he says

756
00:36:56,074 --> 00:36:58,154
Speaker 2: there are people at the top of their games, different

757
00:36:58,434 --> 00:37:01,114
Speaker 2: games who are in their nineties. So Jane Fonder for.

758
00:37:01,034 --> 00:37:03,354
Speaker 5: Sure, I don't know if she's in her nineties, she's

759
00:37:03,394 --> 00:37:04,393
Speaker 5: getting out of it there.

760
00:37:04,874 --> 00:37:08,434
Speaker 3: Well's in his nineties. Murdock is in his nineties.

761
00:37:09,314 --> 00:37:09,794
Speaker 4: Murdoch.

762
00:37:09,914 --> 00:37:12,634
Speaker 5: I don't want Brad, the kindly Brad to have to

763
00:37:12,674 --> 00:37:14,913
Speaker 5: spend any time with Rupert Murdoch in a.

764
00:37:14,874 --> 00:37:18,554
Speaker 3: Seal sully Bred the second with some Murdock. Can you

765
00:37:18,594 --> 00:37:22,473
Speaker 3: know Clint Eastward, I.

766
00:37:22,394 --> 00:37:23,513
Speaker 4: Don't want him in the room.

767
00:37:24,194 --> 00:37:26,394
Speaker 2: I think Clint Eastwood fish Robert Bradford.

768
00:37:26,394 --> 00:37:28,794
Speaker 5: I was hoping, but no, I guess I didn't have

769
00:37:28,874 --> 00:37:30,194
Speaker 5: Robert Bradford's true.

770
00:37:30,234 --> 00:37:33,674
Speaker 2: So now when when somebody dies Joe Biden.

771
00:37:33,714 --> 00:37:35,674
Speaker 4: Oh my god, Joe Biden.

772
00:37:35,834 --> 00:37:38,114
Speaker 3: He's not ninety yet there was in his Lady, but

773
00:37:38,314 --> 00:37:39,394
Speaker 3: you know close enough.

774
00:37:39,674 --> 00:37:41,274
Speaker 4: That's a controversial one.

775
00:37:41,634 --> 00:37:44,034
Speaker 2: That's so interesting. The thing is is that, and obviously

776
00:37:44,074 --> 00:37:46,314
Speaker 2: my journalistic brain goes here, is that in Brad and

777
00:37:46,354 --> 00:37:49,473
Speaker 2: Gwyneth's house, I don't like to cast any aspersions. But

778
00:37:49,554 --> 00:37:52,154
Speaker 2: does that mean that when Jane good All passed there

779
00:37:52,194 --> 00:37:55,554
Speaker 2: was a little bit of billam no.

780
00:37:55,274 --> 00:37:57,554
Speaker 4: Like my show can be released.

781
00:37:58,714 --> 00:38:01,114
Speaker 5: About show? So the way it works in practice is

782
00:38:01,154 --> 00:38:03,674
Speaker 5: the most compelling part of the show is when Brad

783
00:38:03,754 --> 00:38:07,234
Speaker 5: leaves the room and the person just speaks directly to

784
00:38:07,274 --> 00:38:10,074
Speaker 5: the camera. And what Jane does at that point. The

785
00:38:10,114 --> 00:38:12,634
Speaker 5: thing she's asked for as her accompaniment is a glass

786
00:38:12,634 --> 00:38:14,834
Speaker 5: of whiskey, which I love, but it doesn't seem to

787
00:38:14,914 --> 00:38:16,274
Speaker 5: like drinking woman.

788
00:38:16,514 --> 00:38:18,994
Speaker 2: He said in the Gwyneth interview. He said that Jane

789
00:38:19,034 --> 00:38:21,033
Speaker 2: was happening whiskey and.

790
00:38:21,194 --> 00:38:25,234
Speaker 3: Why the hell not, and that I mean Jane responsibly,

791
00:38:25,354 --> 00:38:27,674
Speaker 3: but Jane Goodall deserves a whiskey, right.

792
00:38:28,754 --> 00:38:31,473
Speaker 5: So he leaves the room and she basically says something

793
00:38:31,474 --> 00:38:34,034
Speaker 5: which I found so moving that I found myself starting

794
00:38:34,034 --> 00:38:37,234
Speaker 5: to cry, which won't sound that moving when I say it,

795
00:38:37,274 --> 00:38:39,474
Speaker 5: because I'm not Jane Goodall. And I'm not hammered on

796
00:38:39,514 --> 00:38:42,954
Speaker 5: whiskey right now, but it was basically like, don't lose hope,

797
00:38:42,994 --> 00:38:45,873
Speaker 5: Like the world feels dark and I just want you

798
00:38:45,994 --> 00:38:48,554
Speaker 5: to keep fighting the good fight, basically, and there was

799
00:38:48,594 --> 00:38:52,034
Speaker 5: just something from someone who brings so much credibility to

800
00:38:52,074 --> 00:38:54,274
Speaker 5: those words, it felt really powerful.

801
00:38:55,274 --> 00:38:57,554
Speaker 2: Glad, do you think there's a real life application for

802
00:38:57,594 --> 00:38:58,634
Speaker 2: the idea of this show?

803
00:38:58,714 --> 00:38:58,913
Speaker 5: Yeah?

804
00:38:58,914 --> 00:39:01,194
Speaker 3: I was just thinking about that because when and I

805
00:39:01,274 --> 00:39:04,274
Speaker 3: have unfortunately been to quite a few funerals in the

806
00:39:04,354 --> 00:39:08,154
Speaker 3: last five years, and it always occurred to me that

807
00:39:09,594 --> 00:39:13,194
Speaker 3: though some of the people who whose funeral it was

808
00:39:13,594 --> 00:39:16,393
Speaker 3: knew that they were going to pass away, none of.

809
00:39:16,314 --> 00:39:18,834
Speaker 4: Them recorded a video message, none of them.

810
00:39:18,994 --> 00:39:21,834
Speaker 3: And I was like, I would have like if I

811
00:39:21,954 --> 00:39:25,953
Speaker 3: was in that situation, I would want to Maybe some

812
00:39:25,994 --> 00:39:27,594
Speaker 3: of it would be nice, but I would also like

813
00:39:27,634 --> 00:39:29,834
Speaker 3: that opportunity to tell people who I know will turn

814
00:39:29,914 --> 00:39:32,194
Speaker 3: up at my funeral exactly how I feel about them,

815
00:39:32,194 --> 00:39:34,433
Speaker 3: so they walk away from their knowing full well how

816
00:39:34,434 --> 00:39:36,554
Speaker 3: I felt about certain things that they did. But I

817
00:39:36,634 --> 00:39:39,433
Speaker 3: just I feel like there's something lovely in and maybe

818
00:39:39,434 --> 00:39:41,154
Speaker 3: it'd be a bit different for us because we are

819
00:39:41,554 --> 00:39:42,914
Speaker 3: we do what we do and we have access to

820
00:39:42,954 --> 00:39:45,754
Speaker 3: audio recording equipment and video recording equipment. Maybe it's not

821
00:39:45,794 --> 00:39:48,034
Speaker 3: as easy for you know, everybody, but you all have

822
00:39:48,074 --> 00:39:48,834
Speaker 3: a phone these days.

823
00:39:48,874 --> 00:39:49,634
Speaker 4: It records video.

824
00:39:49,874 --> 00:39:52,994
Speaker 3: But I would love to see people do more video

825
00:39:53,354 --> 00:39:55,714
Speaker 3: recordings that get played at their funeral so people can

826
00:39:55,794 --> 00:39:57,834
Speaker 3: kind of get that last impression of.

827
00:39:57,794 --> 00:40:00,594
Speaker 2: Them, Murphy, will you it's what you just said. The

828
00:40:00,594 --> 00:40:02,514
Speaker 2: way I interpreted that is that you would like the

829
00:40:02,594 --> 00:40:04,913
Speaker 2: video message at your funeral to be like a new

830
00:40:04,994 --> 00:40:05,714
Speaker 2: anti barrel.

831
00:40:05,794 --> 00:40:08,073
Speaker 3: Oh sometimes, yeah, not all of Like I'll be telling

832
00:40:08,114 --> 00:40:09,474
Speaker 3: the people that I love that I love, but I

833
00:40:09,514 --> 00:40:10,873
Speaker 3: know that there are people who will turn up that

834
00:40:10,874 --> 00:40:12,034
Speaker 3: I will have words.

835
00:40:11,714 --> 00:40:14,194
Speaker 2: For and you will be like, what are you even

836
00:40:14,274 --> 00:40:15,434
Speaker 2: doing here, Kevin.

837
00:40:15,634 --> 00:40:19,593
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will put it out there and there would

838
00:40:19,634 --> 00:40:21,754
Speaker 3: be one name in particular. I say, if this person

839
00:40:22,314 --> 00:40:24,593
Speaker 3: is in the crowd right now, get up and walk

840
00:40:24,594 --> 00:40:25,474
Speaker 3: your after master.

841
00:40:27,554 --> 00:40:30,714
Speaker 5: Jane Goodall did say that she wants Elon Musk, Donald

842
00:40:30,794 --> 00:40:33,754
Speaker 5: Trump putin and she to get on a spaceship and

843
00:40:33,794 --> 00:40:35,873
Speaker 5: go to out of space, which I thought was kind

844
00:40:35,874 --> 00:40:36,274
Speaker 5: of great.

845
00:40:36,434 --> 00:40:38,513
Speaker 4: You know, there was a famous Australian.

846
00:40:37,954 --> 00:40:41,954
Speaker 5: Who did exactly what you're advising here to Declaire.

847
00:40:42,034 --> 00:40:46,314
Speaker 4: Let's take a lesson fellow Australians. If you are seeing

848
00:40:46,354 --> 00:40:48,074
Speaker 4: me now, it means.

849
00:40:47,874 --> 00:40:48,794
Speaker 2: I have been murdered.

850
00:40:49,234 --> 00:40:53,034
Speaker 4: I had to remind you she did that.

851
00:40:53,034 --> 00:40:56,674
Speaker 5: That was Pauline Hanson in the late nineties. I think

852
00:40:56,834 --> 00:40:58,714
Speaker 5: I was I was in high school. Made a big

853
00:40:58,754 --> 00:40:59,594
Speaker 5: impression on me.

854
00:40:59,714 --> 00:41:02,354
Speaker 2: Why did she do that? Because remember the circumstances.

855
00:41:02,394 --> 00:41:04,754
Speaker 4: Are you asking me to explain Pauline Hanson to you?

856
00:41:04,874 --> 00:41:08,154
Speaker 4: I think she was just John a little bit parent annoyed, and.

857
00:41:08,034 --> 00:41:10,594
Speaker 5: So she decided to record this video that would play

858
00:41:10,634 --> 00:41:13,354
Speaker 5: in case of her death. But unlike Brad the Second,

859
00:41:13,434 --> 00:41:16,234
Speaker 5: whoever was in charge of that video or obviously decided

860
00:41:16,274 --> 00:41:16,913
Speaker 5: to release it.

861
00:41:17,194 --> 00:41:19,994
Speaker 2: The only thing that's interesting, I love your take on it, Claire,

862
00:41:19,994 --> 00:41:24,034
Speaker 2: that this kind because Jane Goddle's interview, as you might expect,

863
00:41:24,114 --> 00:41:27,714
Speaker 2: is actually very classy. She did say some quite interesting

864
00:41:27,714 --> 00:41:30,953
Speaker 2: things about her relationships. Because I think the idea of this,

865
00:41:31,114 --> 00:41:33,354
Speaker 2: why it's appealing, is that you've got nothing to the

866
00:41:33,354 --> 00:41:35,393
Speaker 2: idea is you've got nothing to lose, so you can

867
00:41:35,754 --> 00:41:38,433
Speaker 2: absolutely put everything on blast. You have to.

868
00:41:38,354 --> 00:41:40,554
Speaker 3: Trust that Brad the Second is not going to leak

869
00:41:40,874 --> 00:41:43,433
Speaker 3: any of it. Yeah, well, of Brad's eyes, I go

870
00:41:43,474 --> 00:41:45,154
Speaker 3: anywhere and apparently.

871
00:41:44,634 --> 00:41:47,034
Speaker 2: There's there's something involved, or it gets locked away in

872
00:41:47,114 --> 00:41:49,514
Speaker 2: a you know, a library.

873
00:41:49,114 --> 00:41:50,354
Speaker 4: With Brad Sweater collection.

874
00:41:50,634 --> 00:41:52,434
Speaker 2: Maybe, oh my god, it should be that's when the

875
00:41:52,474 --> 00:41:56,434
Speaker 2: collection deserves to be locked up. But that's the idea

876
00:41:56,554 --> 00:41:58,834
Speaker 2: I think. Is that you so, but I hope they

877
00:41:58,914 --> 00:42:00,914
Speaker 2: are because the other thing he said in his interview

878
00:42:00,914 --> 00:42:04,154
Speaker 2: with gwinnis which slightly disappointing actually is he said people

879
00:42:04,234 --> 00:42:08,393
Speaker 2: are actually very predictable in their regret, Like everybody at

880
00:42:08,394 --> 00:42:10,914
Speaker 2: the end of their life was very predictable in their regrets.

881
00:42:10,914 --> 00:42:13,394
Speaker 2: He said, all the things that we pay lip service

882
00:42:13,434 --> 00:42:15,114
Speaker 2: to all the time as saying are the most important

883
00:42:15,114 --> 00:42:17,393
Speaker 2: things to us, family, loved ones, spending time with our

884
00:42:17,474 --> 00:42:21,354
Speaker 2: kids are the things that everybody regrets. And then Gwynneth said,

885
00:42:21,434 --> 00:42:23,993
Speaker 2: which is golden. This is the other thing we talked

886
00:42:23,994 --> 00:42:26,913
Speaker 2: about in our trip trap familiar enough. He said that

887
00:42:26,994 --> 00:42:30,714
Speaker 2: most of these very successful people that he'd interviewed regretted

888
00:42:30,834 --> 00:42:33,154
Speaker 2: not spending enough time with their kids because they were

889
00:42:33,234 --> 00:42:36,634
Speaker 2: achieving all their great things. And my friend gwynn says, well,

890
00:42:36,634 --> 00:42:39,114
Speaker 2: at least I know I'm paraphrasing her, but it's great.

891
00:42:39,834 --> 00:42:41,994
Speaker 2: At least I know I will never have that regret

892
00:42:42,234 --> 00:42:44,114
Speaker 2: because I gave up work to spend lots and lots

893
00:42:44,114 --> 00:42:45,114
Speaker 2: of time with my children.

894
00:42:45,074 --> 00:42:48,314
Speaker 5: Are so great and makes women everywhere feel amazing.

895
00:42:49,354 --> 00:42:51,274
Speaker 4: Is what we should all aspire to be.

896
00:42:51,354 --> 00:42:54,514
Speaker 5: But the funny thing about Jane, though, is that she

897
00:42:54,714 --> 00:42:58,074
Speaker 5: doesn't really say what Brad says. Everyone says. Essentially, what

898
00:42:58,154 --> 00:43:01,234
Speaker 5: she says in that interview is that she loved her

899
00:43:01,354 --> 00:43:04,514
Speaker 5: chimps more, certainly more than both of her husbands.

900
00:43:04,514 --> 00:43:04,873
Speaker 4: That's true.

901
00:43:05,074 --> 00:43:06,834
Speaker 5: She says she should never have married because she didn't

902
00:43:06,834 --> 00:43:10,234
Speaker 5: love them, I mean fat and reading between the lines

903
00:43:10,394 --> 00:43:11,154
Speaker 5: more than her son.

904
00:43:11,274 --> 00:43:14,393
Speaker 2: Well, and he certainly thought so, right this her son

905
00:43:14,474 --> 00:43:15,314
Speaker 2: certainly thought and.

906
00:43:15,274 --> 00:43:17,794
Speaker 4: She said that he thought that with justification.

907
00:43:17,474 --> 00:43:20,074
Speaker 2: Yes, which is really interesting. So in theory, this is

908
00:43:20,114 --> 00:43:22,794
Speaker 2: a great idea, the no holds barred I'm fascinated to

909
00:43:22,874 --> 00:43:24,873
Speaker 2: know who else he's done. But I also want to

910
00:43:24,874 --> 00:43:27,874
Speaker 2: pick up Murphy's idea of just putting everyone on blast

911
00:43:27,874 --> 00:43:28,474
Speaker 2: at your funeral.

912
00:43:28,554 --> 00:43:30,034
Speaker 4: Oh I love it, I mean not everybody.

913
00:43:30,154 --> 00:43:32,274
Speaker 3: My friend Mel who passed away a few years ago,

914
00:43:32,514 --> 00:43:35,034
Speaker 3: her like if she'd recorded something, it would have just

915
00:43:35,034 --> 00:43:37,434
Speaker 3: been like love and light and telling every single person

916
00:43:37,434 --> 00:43:39,393
Speaker 3: in the room the most amazing things about them, and

917
00:43:39,434 --> 00:43:40,834
Speaker 3: we all would have walked out of their like all

918
00:43:40,874 --> 00:43:43,354
Speaker 3: warm and fuzzy and feeling incredible and sad at the

919
00:43:43,354 --> 00:43:46,714
Speaker 3: same time. I mean, I'm not as nice as her,

920
00:43:47,154 --> 00:43:49,194
Speaker 3: so there would be words for some people. But there

921
00:43:49,194 --> 00:43:50,873
Speaker 3: are some people that I like who would get very

922
00:43:50,914 --> 00:43:53,114
Speaker 3: nice messages to and they will walk out feeling lovely.

923
00:43:53,274 --> 00:43:55,394
Speaker 4: So you know, out.

924
00:43:55,314 --> 00:43:58,394
Speaker 2: Louders tell us if you only of your loved ones

925
00:43:58,434 --> 00:44:01,594
Speaker 2: have got kind of unusual ways of making sure everybody

926
00:44:01,594 --> 00:44:05,873
Speaker 2: remembers how you feel about them after they go. A

927
00:44:05,914 --> 00:44:07,873
Speaker 2: massive thank you out louder. Thanks for being here with

928
00:44:07,954 --> 00:44:10,873
Speaker 2: us on Monday. Thank you to you Clare Murphy for

929
00:44:11,234 --> 00:44:14,034
Speaker 2: me always such a pleasure to have you here, and

930
00:44:14,074 --> 00:44:16,994
Speaker 2: to our fabulous team for putting this together. Don't forget

931
00:44:17,154 --> 00:44:18,074
Speaker 2: you can watch us on.

932
00:44:18,034 --> 00:44:19,394
Speaker 4: YouTube or don't forget.

933
00:44:19,714 --> 00:44:20,674
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you want to?

934
00:44:21,114 --> 00:44:23,074
Speaker 3: I am going to make up on for nothing? People

935
00:44:23,154 --> 00:44:24,354
Speaker 3: go watch this on YouTube?

936
00:44:24,714 --> 00:44:26,873
Speaker 2: Is this one reason why Kim kardash you might want

937
00:44:26,874 --> 00:44:28,913
Speaker 2: to wear a scarf over? Yeah, you don't have to.

938
00:44:28,874 --> 00:44:31,274
Speaker 5: Do glad for me wearing a scarf on Wednesday? Can

939
00:44:31,314 --> 00:44:33,674
Speaker 5: we can we all on Wednesday wear a scarf over?

940
00:44:33,754 --> 00:44:34,234
Speaker 4: I hate for the.

941
00:44:34,314 --> 00:44:38,074
Speaker 2: Entire Yeah, goodbye, friends, will be back in your ears tomorrow.

942
00:44:38,194 --> 00:44:39,834
Speaker 4: Bye.

943
00:44:41,994 --> 00:44:44,873
Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mama Mia subscribers listening. If you

944
00:44:45,034 --> 00:44:47,913
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

945
00:44:47,914 --> 00:44:50,354
Speaker 2: to MoMA Mia is the very best way to do it.

946
00:44:50,554 --> 00:44:52,394
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description