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Speaker 1: there's a lot, you don't know about lee sales sure.

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Speaker 1: You know that she's possibly the most outstanding journalist of

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Speaker 1: her generation, but she's been hosting the abc's flagship news

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Speaker 1: and current affairs program 7 30 for 12 years where

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Speaker 1: she's interviewed five sitting prime ministers, several ex prime ministers

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Speaker 1: and every celebrity and sports person you've ever heard of.

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Speaker 1: You also probably know that she's Australia's most famous redhead

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Speaker 1: and that she's a podcast icon. Thanks to the show

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Speaker 1: that she co hosts with her friend Annabelle crab called

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Speaker 1: chat 10 Looks Three. You might also know that she's

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Speaker 1: written several best selling books, including any ordinary day. I

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Speaker 1: bought at least a dozen copies of that book to

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Speaker 1: give to people after they've experienced sudden tragedies because it

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Speaker 1: is one of the most brilliant and helpful books that

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Speaker 1: I've ever read. All that stuff. It's well and truly

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Speaker 1: on the public record.

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Speaker 1: But do you know that she's a single mother, that

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Speaker 1: she nearly died during childbirth, that she knows virtually nothing

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Speaker 1: about sport, but has had amusing text banter with everyone

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Speaker 1: from Shane warne to Justin Langer after she interviewed them

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Speaker 1: or that she nearly lost her mind with excitement when

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Speaker 1: she got to interview paul McCartney because you also probably

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Speaker 1: didn't know that she is a massive music nerd and

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Speaker 1: she loves nothing more than to open her piano at

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Speaker 1: home and bang out a show tune.

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Speaker 1: You probably didn't know that both john howard and Malcolm

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Speaker 1: Turnbull both called her to express their condolences after her

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Speaker 1: father died very suddenly a few years ago

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Speaker 1: And did you know that she didn't use serums until

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago when I shamed her into

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Speaker 1: taking better care of her skin at age 48 and

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Speaker 1: demanded that she started using both vitamin C and retinol.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot about lee sales because after meeting

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Speaker 1: on twitter around a decade ago, she has become one

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Speaker 1: of my closest and most beloved friends. This is the

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Speaker 1: fourth time she's been a guest on no filter and

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Speaker 1: not even Glennon Doyle or Liz Gilbert has been on

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Speaker 1: that many times, which says a lot about how interestingly

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Speaker 1: sales is. So why again,

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Speaker 1: What everyone wants to know most about Lee sales right

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Speaker 1: now is why she's leaving the most high profile and

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Speaker 1: prestigious job in Australian journalism. Why is she walking away

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Speaker 1: from hosting 730 when she is in arguably on top

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Speaker 1: of her game. Is it the trolls, is it work

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Speaker 1: life balance? Was she canceled?

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Speaker 1: Is she in fact having extensive plastic surgery so that

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Speaker 1: she can retreat from the public eye for a life

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Speaker 1: of anonymity,

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Speaker 1: lee sales. The people have questions and I'm here to

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Speaker 1: ask them.

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Speaker 1: When did you find out that you were going to

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Speaker 1: be the host of 7 30? Do you remember the

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Speaker 1: day

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Speaker 2: I do? It was late 2010, I think it was

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Speaker 2: maybe late November 2010

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Speaker 2: and I had some talks with Mark's got the head

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Speaker 2: of the abc at the time and kate Tony who

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Speaker 2: was the head of news at the time and I

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Speaker 2: wasn't 100% sure that they wanted me to do it.

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Speaker 2: And then kate rang me to say we'd like you

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Speaker 2: to do it and we'd like to be the political editor.

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Speaker 2: So it was kind of a new broom coming through

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Speaker 2: and it was thrilling because you know, it's such a

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Speaker 2: big and key job, but it was also scary because

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Speaker 2: I was coming in behind Kerry O'brien who had been

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Speaker 2: doing it for a really, really long time and I

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Speaker 2: have such a different kind of vibe to carry. It

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Speaker 2: was like, okay, this is going to be hard. And

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Speaker 2: I remember saying to Mark and kate,

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Speaker 2: I need you to agree that you'll back me in

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Speaker 2: for three years because I think the audience will need

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Speaker 2: three years to adapt to having a new person there

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Speaker 2: because even, you know, when someone good is replaced by

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Speaker 2: somebody good change is hard for television audiences and so

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Speaker 2: they were great. So I started out with a three

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Speaker 2: year contract so that I had that assurance and it

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Speaker 2: was really good.

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Speaker 1: But what if you'd been a bit shit

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Speaker 2: then, I guess they would have found a way out

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Speaker 2: of

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Speaker 1: it.

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Speaker 1: Was it something that you had to audition for? Were

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Speaker 1: there a few people in the running for it? What

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Speaker 1: were you doing before you took that role?

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Speaker 2: So before I was doing it, I was hosting Late

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Speaker 2: Line and this was a show that used to go

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Speaker 2: to air at 10 30 at night and it was

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Speaker 2: shared between myself and Tony jones. He hosted Late Line

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Speaker 2: and Q and A. And I did the other days

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Speaker 2: of Late Line. And it was a program not dissimilar

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Speaker 2: to 7 30 but longer and it had longer interviews.

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Speaker 2: So the interviews would always be about 15 minutes,

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Speaker 2: which for 7 30 15 minutes is usually something really major.

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Speaker 2: Like I had the head of the reserve bank the

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Speaker 2: other day and that was 15 minutes late line, everyone,

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Speaker 2: 15 minutes. So I was having a lot of practice

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Speaker 2: of doing the kinds of things that you do on

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Speaker 2: 7 30 on late line. So I guess that was

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Speaker 2: just an on air, maybe an off broadway kind of audition.

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Speaker 2: They knew my work, so I didn't have to audition.

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Speaker 2: And usually I think when you get to this level,

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Speaker 2: you're only being looked at if you work very well

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Speaker 2: known already. And so it was just a case of

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Speaker 2: us talking through what I thought of the show at

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Speaker 2: the time and what I would like to do. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: it kind of went from there. So it was just

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Speaker 2: a conversation really.

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Speaker 1: It was obviously a big commitment in terms of four

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Speaker 1: days a week. What are the hours of 7:30?

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of,

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Speaker 2: You know, like a lot of media jobs, it's 24/7 really?

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Speaker 2: So I wake up in the morning and I immediately

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Speaker 2: have to check what's in the news because the mornings

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Speaker 2: when you set up the day. So if you need

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Speaker 2: reporters on stories straight away or if you need to

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Speaker 2: get bids in for people, that's when you're doing.

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Speaker 2: So that's quite a busy time from about 66 30.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at a lot of newspapers and making calls

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Speaker 2: and juggling that now with my kids. And then nine

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Speaker 2: am we have an editorial conference call where we're talking

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Speaker 2: about what might be on the show and what our

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Speaker 2: options are. And then between usually about 9 15 and

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Speaker 2: 11 o'clock or so. And that's my kind of quiet

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Speaker 2: time where I can usually go to the GM or

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Speaker 2: do something, depends what I've got going on

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Speaker 2: and then things start changing. So, for example, I kept

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Speaker 2: you waiting because I was on the phone to the

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Speaker 2: executive producer because we just got word that one interview

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Speaker 2: we were going for is not happening. But another one is.

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Speaker 2: And so Clay, who's acting at the moment, wanted to

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Speaker 2: have a quick chat to me about what he thought

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Speaker 2: we should touch on the interview. And I was talking

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Speaker 2: about what I thought, so now that I know that

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Speaker 2: that's my interview, it'll be okay. Now I prep for

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Speaker 2: that and then I'm simultaneously prepping for an interview tomorrow

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Speaker 2: with Dylan Alcott? So trying to get that out of

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Speaker 2: the way

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Speaker 2: and then juggling whatever else is on the show and

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Speaker 2: then I'll have to make up about four my interviews

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Speaker 2: at 5 15 today. And then once I've done that interview,

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Speaker 2: then I have a look at the leads for the

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Speaker 2: other stories and any other content and we talk about

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Speaker 2: any other issues. You might have a quick chat about

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Speaker 2: what's coming up tomorrow and then you do the show

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Speaker 2: live and then off you go. But between now, 11

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Speaker 2: 37 30 tonight, all of that could be completely out

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Speaker 2: the window because it's dictated by news events. So it's

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Speaker 2: a rolling, movable face, basically

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Speaker 1: when I prepped for our conversation today, my prep involved

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Speaker 1: asking in a group chat with you and two other

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Speaker 1: of our friends who are journalists, what should my first

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Speaker 1: question be?

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Speaker 1: How is that different to your process when you're say

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Speaker 1: interviewing anyone?

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Speaker 2: Do you know what I actually think what you did.

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Speaker 2: That is a great process because particularly if you talk

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Speaker 2: to people who, like, let's say for you, maybe what's

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Speaker 2: that group, you think, okay, women like that? That's the

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Speaker 2: audience for this podcast. So what they're interested in knowing

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Speaker 2: from lee is what my audience would be interested in knowing.

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Speaker 2: So I'm doing this.

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Speaker 2: It's a very similar thing for 7 30 which is

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what would the average person sitting at home

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Speaker 2: who watches my show like me to ask if they're

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Speaker 2: in my position. So I say for example, I mentioned

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Speaker 2: earlier that I interviewed last week, the Governor of the

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Speaker 2: Reserve Bank feel though it's unprecedented basically for him to

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Speaker 2: do a Tv interview like that. So I was thinking okay,

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Speaker 2: what are people thinking about and how I inform myself

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Speaker 2: for that is I talk to my friends who are

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Speaker 2: in politics and the media, I have lots of conversations

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Speaker 2: with if I'm at the local cafe, the guy who's

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Speaker 2: working behind there are asking, how is business going? And

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Speaker 2: is he worried about interest rates or if I'm sitting

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Speaker 2: in a doctor's surgery or if I'm in a cab

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Speaker 2: or what,

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Speaker 2: I just talked to people all the time so that

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Speaker 2: I have a sense of what regular people think about,

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Speaker 2: not people like me who consume media all day every day.

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Speaker 2: So I guess it's the equivalent of like a WhatsApp

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Speaker 2: group chat, but just on a bigger kind of real

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Speaker 2: life scale,

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Speaker 1: you interview everyone from Prime Ministers to sports people to

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Speaker 1: the Beatles. You know, paul McCartney, there are some of

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Speaker 1: those topics that you know more about and some of

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Speaker 1: those that you know less about the sport. How do

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Speaker 1: you prep like, you know, on the day of the

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Speaker 1: Melbourne Cup, you usually have to interview the winner. How

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Speaker 1: do you prep for that? You know nothing about horse racing.

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Speaker 2: You know what's really embarrassing?

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Speaker 2: I reckon if you went back and watched all my

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Speaker 2: Melbourne Cup interviews over the years, it's probably about the

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Speaker 2: same four questions. It'll be like, what was going through

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Speaker 2: your mind in that final 100 m and? Well, it's

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Speaker 2: just such an amazing thing to win. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: must be so thrilled, but it's kind of like prepping

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Speaker 2: for anything in that everyone always has their own individual story. So,

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Speaker 2: with Melbourne Cup, it's always a real relief if you

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Speaker 2: discover that

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Speaker 2: the jockeys just come back from an accident or Michelle

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Speaker 2: Payne was the best ever because it was a female

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Speaker 2: jockey and her brother was this trapper and their dad

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Speaker 2: and their mom had died was a great story. So

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Speaker 2: you had a lot to work with where it's sport

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Speaker 2: is harder for me, if it's more technical about what

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Speaker 2: was involved in the race rather than the person's human story.

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Speaker 2: And usually I'm trying to pull it onto the human

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Speaker 2: terrain

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Speaker 2: and not everyone at home knows about the intricacies of

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Speaker 2: horse racing, they want to connect with the story as

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Speaker 2: a human being. And I think, you know, whether it's

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Speaker 2: the governor of the Reserve bank or the person who

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Speaker 2: run the Melbourne Cup, if you can find a way

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Speaker 2: to talk on a level that everyone else who's not

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Speaker 2: an expert in that field can relate to, then you're

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Speaker 2: on much better terrain. So for example, sometimes I'll send

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Speaker 2: back when I was more in news and occasionally I'm

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Speaker 2: feeling as a news reader,

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Speaker 2: I sometimes send back a lead to people in support

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Speaker 2: because I go, I can't even tell what sport this

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Speaker 2: is about because it would be the boomers smashed the

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Speaker 2: opals in a thrilling touchdown. What sport is this and

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Speaker 2: say there's so much jargon in sport and so much

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Speaker 2: knowledge and same with finance, like the footsie and hung

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Speaker 2: what like I don't know what that means.

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Speaker 1: So it's always about walking in the shoes of the

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Speaker 1: audience and not bringing assumed knowledge.

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Speaker 2: I think so or some things you can kind of

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Speaker 2: assume I guess like you can assume that people know

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Speaker 2: who Shane warne is maybe, but maybe you want to

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Speaker 2: try to explain why is Shane warne such a famous cricketer,

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Speaker 2: Like people who

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Speaker 2: I don't know about cricket, they might not quite understand

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Speaker 2: what made him different to a regular cricketer. So I

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Speaker 2: try really hard, particularly with subjects I know really well,

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Speaker 2: like say foreign policy or trashy television, try not assume

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Speaker 2: that everybody else knows. What do I know about it

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Speaker 1: when you're interviewing those people,

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Speaker 1: it's only politicians who are the ones that usually push back.

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Speaker 1: Although that's maybe not true. You've had to do some,

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Speaker 1: I won't say antagonistic, but usually when you're interviewing someone

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Speaker 1: they won't try and deliberately mislead, you divert you filibuster

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Speaker 1: you what are the specific approaches that you need to

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Speaker 1: take when you're interviewing a politician.

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Speaker 2: So a politician usually defers to a regular interviewee in that,

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Speaker 2: you know, that they're not going to engage in an

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Speaker 2: open kind of way, you know, they're not going to

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Speaker 2: let you in on everything that's going on behind the scenes,

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Speaker 2: they're going to have a message that they're going to

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Speaker 2: want to try to get out. And sometimes it's interesting

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Speaker 2: to know what their message is. So safe for exam,

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Speaker 2: Anthony Albanese is due to come on 7 30 next

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Speaker 2: week for his first interview as Prime Minister. And so

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Speaker 2: I haven't interviewed him before. He hasn't been in the

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Speaker 2: job long, so he doesn't have a record. So it

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Speaker 2: won't be an interview where it's not an accountability interview,

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Speaker 2: where he's not going to be under pressure. Like a

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Speaker 2: regular political interview, it'll be an interview where I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to actually hear what Anthony Albanese

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Speaker 2: messages and what his ambitions are for his term, because

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Speaker 2: if I were remaining as anchor of 7 30 I'd

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Speaker 2: be using that interview for the next three years as

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Speaker 2: my kind of flag poles in the ground interview to see, Well,

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Speaker 2: right at the start, you said that this is what

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Speaker 2: you wanted to do and what you wanted to achieve.

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Speaker 2: You are at point A and now we're at point

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Speaker 2: z how did you get so far off what you

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Speaker 2: said you were going to do, kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes you do want to hear what their message

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Speaker 2: is and what they're saying and then other times you

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Speaker 2: want to get to the bottom of a change in

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Speaker 2: policy or something that they've done wrong and so I'll

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Speaker 2: try to arm myself with facts to then rebut what

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Speaker 2: I think there's been, you know, might be, whereas with

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Speaker 2: a normal person say preferred politicians is not normal,

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Speaker 2: but like Dylan Alcott for example, I mentioned before that

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Speaker 2: I'm prepping for an interview tomorrow. Now Dylan Alcott is

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Speaker 2: a really great talker. He's very charismatic and charming. And

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Speaker 2: so I assume if I ask interesting, engaging questions that

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Speaker 2: perk up Dylan's interest and if we have nice rapport

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Speaker 2: that I'm not going to have to work very hard

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Speaker 2: as an interviewer, I'm just going to

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Speaker 2: have to give him a gentle steer in the right direction.

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Speaker 2: Listen to what he's saying and respond so that it

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Speaker 2: feels like a natural kind of conversation. So every interview

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Speaker 2: that I go into, I'm thinking, okay, what's the tone

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Speaker 2: I need with this? How do I make this person

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Speaker 2: feel at ease or how do I achieve? You know, again,

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Speaker 2: what the average person at home might want to see

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Speaker 2: out of this interview

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Speaker 1: when you went from being I guess a working journalist

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Speaker 1: to being more of a star journalist when you started

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Speaker 1: hosting 7 30 you were in people's lounge rooms four

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Speaker 1: nights a week plus on all the promo s plus

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Speaker 1: in the media everywhere and ads and all of those things,

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Speaker 1: When did you notice the transition between people? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I imagine you had a little bit of it when

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Speaker 1: you were hosting Late line, but it was really like

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Speaker 1: prime time a list. How did you notice the transition

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Speaker 1: about how you were perceived, how people interacted with you

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Speaker 1: becoming a famous person?

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Speaker 2: So the longer I've done it, the more this has

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Speaker 2: become notable to me. So now I would rarely leave

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Speaker 2: the house and not have somebody come up to me

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Speaker 2: and want to chat to me, I want to have

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Speaker 2: a selfie or whatever. So whereas the first few years

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Speaker 2: I felt kind of like I still could go out

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Speaker 2: and not be noticed, maybe I was kidding myself, because

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Speaker 2: sometimes what happens is I'll sit in a cafe and

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Speaker 2: no one will say something, and then on social media

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Speaker 2: later someone might go, oh I just saw you sitting

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Speaker 2: in a cafe and I didn't want to say anything,

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Speaker 2: but you know, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 2: So maybe I was more noticed than I thought, but

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Speaker 2: I have become very conscious of it and it might

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Speaker 2: also be because I'm leaving. So now people are just

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Speaker 2: so lovely because they want to come up and they

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Speaker 2: want to go, I just want to say thank you

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Speaker 2: very much and you know that kind of thing, and

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Speaker 2: also just the range of people now who come up

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Speaker 2: to me like it can be quite young people in

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Speaker 2: their late teens or early twenties, it can be older

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Speaker 2: people that you perceive as more traditional abc viewers was

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Speaker 2: walking down George Street the other night on a friday

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Speaker 2: night at about 10 30

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Speaker 2: and there was this group of young guys, I would

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Speaker 2: have never thought they knew who I was, and one

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Speaker 2: of them yelled out, oh my God, lisa, I love you,

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Speaker 2: it was just like, wow, I so did not receive

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Speaker 2: you guys as my demographic at the low, jeez, it's

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Speaker 2: often really weird because you're mixing with all these other

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Speaker 2: famous people from other networks and so the people who

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Speaker 2: sometimes out themselves as major fans is really surprising to me.

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Speaker 2: So one leg is a few years ago I was

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Speaker 2: going to the toilet and I bumped into Gary sweet

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Speaker 2: and he stopped him

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Speaker 2: like oh my God, I am, I cannot believe I

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Speaker 2: bumped into you, oh my God, I'm your biggest fan

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Speaker 2: and he was really awkward. And then this loge, do

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Speaker 2: you know the actor James Stewart who is on the way?

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Speaker 2: So georgie parker, like Australian television royalty came up to

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Speaker 2: me and went, I'm really sorry to disturb you but

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Speaker 2: James is your biggest fan and could he please get

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Speaker 2: a photo with you, I'll take it,

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Speaker 2: that's just like that's completely fine, no problem. And so

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Speaker 2: we got lee, oh my God, it's so great to

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Speaker 2: meet you, it's embarrassing. So he was just like, awkward

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Speaker 2: fan going and then we kind of moved through and

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Speaker 2: ended up colliding again at the other end and I

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Speaker 2: said to him, I'm just always amazed that somebody like

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Speaker 2: you would even know who I am.

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Speaker 2: And so he was like, mom raised us, right? We

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Speaker 2: watched 7 30 so yeah, so that was a classic.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes you kind of surprised by it was a

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Speaker 2: big fan. I remember interviewing Guy Pearce in 2011 when

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Speaker 2: I was first in the show and because you know,

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Speaker 2: I grew up in that neighbors era, you know, he

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Speaker 2: was such a heartthrob when we were kids. And when

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Speaker 2: I walked in, he clearly was a massive viewer and

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Speaker 2: fan of Late line and to the degree where he

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Speaker 2: was like, he was still married at the time he

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Speaker 2: was saying,

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Speaker 2: okay. And I noticed that you've changed your hair and

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Speaker 2: you used to have the short bob on late line,

365
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Speaker 2: They've grown longer and we're wondering why, because I looked

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Speaker 2: too much like Julia Gillard with the short red bob.

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Speaker 2: We sat around yapping for ages after the interview. And

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Speaker 2: then we caught up again in 2018, he's just a

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Speaker 2: religious viewer, 7 30

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Speaker 2: and then we stayed friends because we just hit it

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Speaker 2: off and we were buddies. So my mind, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: oh my God, Guy Pearce is sitting on film sets

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Speaker 2: around the world watching, you know, 7 30 every opportunity candle.

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Speaker 2: Ben Mendelson is another person who one time we had

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Speaker 2: a story and this is lovely when this kind of

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Speaker 2: thing happens. Ben Mendelson was in the U. S. Shooting,

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Speaker 2: what was the show? Whether it was in the luxury

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Speaker 2: kind of hotel that the family runs and

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Speaker 2: oh the guy from friday night lights

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Speaker 1: and it's like swampy,

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Speaker 2: swampy, it's in florida blood,

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Speaker 1: something something blood

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00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,560
Speaker 2: exactly bloodlines. And Ben Mendelsohn's the kind of way with Brother. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: we had this gorgeous story on the show about this

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Speaker 2: kind of disco that was being held for teenagers who

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Speaker 2: had disabilities, like all different kind of disabilities and it

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Speaker 2: was organized by one of the moms because she said

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Speaker 2: they're still teenagers, they still wanna meet somebody that they

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Speaker 2: might fancy and have a bit of romance in their

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Speaker 2: life but we can't let them go out like normal

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Speaker 2: teenagers to easily get taken advantage of and it's just

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Speaker 2: not safe. And so we created this disco for them,

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Speaker 2: it's a safe kind of space. And so they've got

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Speaker 2: a pager and a DJ and stuff. And the kids,

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Speaker 2: we had one of our producers Leslie Robinson follow these

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Speaker 2: kids through and it was just the most gorgeous story

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Speaker 2: and the kids were just so excited, it was just

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Speaker 2: absolutely adorable

399
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Speaker 2: and the mom, you know she only had money to

400
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Speaker 2: do one and then Ben Mendelson saw it watching in L. A.

401
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,450
Speaker 2: And he got in contact with us and said I'll

402
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Speaker 2: pay for another one like just get it organized and

403
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Speaker 2: I'll pay for the whole thing. So they then have

404
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,810
Speaker 2: a second one that Ben shouted, he did an interview

405
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Speaker 2: a few

406
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Speaker 2: years later about something and I actually asked him before

407
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Speaker 2: the interview can I ask you about that on camera?

408
00:19:32,050 --> 00:19:34,450
Speaker 2: Because I think it's a great message to send to

409
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Speaker 2: people of means if you see something on our show

410
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Speaker 2: and you can make a difference we'll just ring us

411
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Speaker 2: and you know you can. And so Ben talked about

412
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Speaker 2: how he watched it and he was really touched by

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Speaker 2: it and he just thought

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Speaker 2: I can spare 5000 bucks to do that. And he

415
00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:51,220
Speaker 2: said to other people they should, I won't name them

416
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Speaker 2: because I don't want to embarrass them. But there's a

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Speaker 2: well known quite well loved Australian businessman who often gets

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Speaker 2: in touch to say you know families who have lost

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Speaker 2: their homes or whatever, he'll pay their rent for six months.

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Speaker 2: And so that's really heartening when that kind of thing happens.

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Speaker 1: Was there anyone at the luggage that you were fan

422
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Speaker 1: girling

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00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:11,070
Speaker 2: over? Um

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Speaker 2: Often it's the kids people that kids entertained because it

425
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Speaker 2: thrills my kids if they see me with. So I

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Speaker 2: had with him a legal and I was chatting to

427
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Speaker 2: Hamish blake, I didn't take a photo with Hamish but

428
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Speaker 2: they love lego masters. So I've said to Hamish you

429
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Speaker 2: know you have to come over for dinner sometime didn't

430
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Speaker 2: want the kids are going to basically monopolizing and hide

431
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Speaker 2: him in the bedroom the entire period to build, but

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Speaker 2: it probably would be fine with that.

433
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Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's usually the kids, people jimmy giggle. I've

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Speaker 2: got one here and I just text the photos for

435
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Speaker 2: the kids

436
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Speaker 1: when obviously people recognizing you in public, you're in a

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Speaker 1: cafe or whatever, it's fine. There's been some times when

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Speaker 1: you've been in very vulnerable situations like when you nearly

439
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Speaker 1: died giving birth,

440
00:20:56,620 --> 00:21:00,490
Speaker 1: what's that? Like? Do you have an awareness in situations

441
00:21:00,490 --> 00:21:04,190
Speaker 1: where you are really powerless or vulnerable or in a

442
00:21:04,190 --> 00:21:08,190
Speaker 1: really private situation that happens to be public is your

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Speaker 1: celebrity in the room?

444
00:21:09,930 --> 00:21:13,310
Speaker 2: Yeah. And because I never assume that people know who

445
00:21:13,310 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 2: I am because I think that would just be up myself.

446
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,940
Speaker 2: So I don't want to say things like, oh look,

447
00:21:17,940 --> 00:21:20,100
Speaker 2: I need an extra level of privacy because you know,

448
00:21:20,110 --> 00:21:23,700
Speaker 2: I'm famous. So I usually am hoping that someone else

449
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:26,930
Speaker 2: might intervene on my behalf and say, you know, we

450
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:29,010
Speaker 2: might prefer to be, you know, blah, blah, blah.

451
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 2: And people normally are very respectful. Like I was in

452
00:21:33,690 --> 00:21:37,010
Speaker 2: hospital one time with my son who was in hospital,

453
00:21:37,020 --> 00:21:39,530
Speaker 2: there was a family in the bed next to us,

454
00:21:39,540 --> 00:21:42,010
Speaker 2: a little boy who had a tumor and

455
00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:44,740
Speaker 2: the mother recognized me, but she didn't raise it with me.

456
00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:48,410
Speaker 2: She raised it with my son's father and she clearly

457
00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:50,260
Speaker 2: didn't want to kind of raise it. It kind of

458
00:21:50,260 --> 00:21:52,770
Speaker 2: made me feel a little bit awkward, but it also

459
00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:54,980
Speaker 2: made me feel good because she knew who I was,

460
00:21:54,980 --> 00:21:56,710
Speaker 2: because she was a fan of chat town, looks through

461
00:21:56,710 --> 00:21:58,990
Speaker 2: the podcast I do with Annabelle and she listened to that.

462
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,910
Speaker 2: And so I got on the phone to Gwen, who

463
00:22:00,910 --> 00:22:03,700
Speaker 2: does our merchandise and said, oh there's this because you know,

464
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:05,390
Speaker 2: I've been hearing like a little boy was in a

465
00:22:05,390 --> 00:22:06,670
Speaker 2: lot of pain,

466
00:22:06,940 --> 00:22:09,360
Speaker 2: I said to Gwen, can you just quickly like bang

467
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,270
Speaker 2: together a merchandise pack of chat 10 Kia that I

468
00:22:12,270 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 2: can give to the mom and say my ex husband

469
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,230
Speaker 2: actually took it in and gave it to her and

470
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,950
Speaker 2: I don't think I actually spoke to her after she

471
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:21,310
Speaker 2: knew who I was, he said, oh she nearly cried,

472
00:22:21,310 --> 00:22:24,060
Speaker 2: like she was so happy about it. And so that

473
00:22:24,250 --> 00:22:26,230
Speaker 2: this stuff is really nice if you feel like, because

474
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:28,500
Speaker 2: you just know that someone's having the bloody worst few

475
00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:30,630
Speaker 2: days of their life and so if you can sling

476
00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:34,660
Speaker 2: them a stupid apron with my ugly mug on it,

477
00:22:34,670 --> 00:22:37,330
Speaker 2: like that makes you feel kind of good. But then

478
00:22:37,330 --> 00:22:39,990
Speaker 2: other times, I remember once in the street, a woman

479
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:41,370
Speaker 2: stopped me and she said,

480
00:22:41,740 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 2: oh it was a nurse and you know when you're

481
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,060
Speaker 2: in intensive care and I remember, you know, you're asleep

482
00:22:46,060 --> 00:22:47,630
Speaker 2: and I said to another nurse, oh my God, it's

483
00:22:47,630 --> 00:22:50,270
Speaker 2: the sales and it was like, I felt like actually

484
00:22:50,270 --> 00:22:53,940
Speaker 2: kind of, but it was gigantically inappropriate,

485
00:22:53,950 --> 00:22:54,410
Speaker 1: you

486
00:22:54,410 --> 00:22:59,970
Speaker 2: Know, times out of 100 people are just really awesome

487
00:22:59,980 --> 00:23:02,730
Speaker 2: to me and they are very respectful and you know,

488
00:23:02,740 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: it's fine.

489
00:23:04,510 --> 00:23:06,990
Speaker 1: You're not someone who pops up in the Gossip columns.

490
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: A million people watch 7, 34 nights a week, millions

491
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,470
Speaker 1: of people watch you on big ticket items like the

492
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:15,730
Speaker 1: election coverage.

493
00:23:16,580 --> 00:23:19,750
Speaker 1: You are one of the most recognizable faces in Australia

494
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,820
Speaker 1: and yet you're not in the gossip columns.

495
00:23:23,370 --> 00:23:24,210
Speaker 1: Why not?

496
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,590
Speaker 2: I think because I'm pretty boring and also I just

497
00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:32,470
Speaker 2: try to keep myself under the radar. So I do

498
00:23:32,470 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: go to, you know, the occasional opening night of things,

499
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:39,610
Speaker 2: but I don't like for example, I don't go out

500
00:23:39,610 --> 00:23:44,370
Speaker 2: to cool places with dates, you know, like I go

501
00:23:44,370 --> 00:23:47,730
Speaker 2: to daddy suburban pubs and you know, things like that.

502
00:23:47,730 --> 00:23:50,230
Speaker 2: So I think that the kind of life I live

503
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:53,330
Speaker 2: doesn't really invite, you know, I don't live in Bondi

504
00:23:53,330 --> 00:23:55,570
Speaker 2: for example. I don't, I'm not eating out at Potts

505
00:23:55,570 --> 00:23:58,550
Speaker 2: point all the time. Like I'm not in places very

506
00:23:58,550 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 2: often where you be seen.

507
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: I mean I do go to pains to not have

508
00:24:04,850 --> 00:24:07,380
Speaker 2: details about my family and private life out there because

509
00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:10,030
Speaker 2: I think it's not fair on the people around me.

510
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,770
Speaker 2: So I do work pretty hard to not be saying

511
00:24:13,770 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: with people and you know, to be honest, not that

512
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:16,980
Speaker 2: I date an endless parade

513
00:24:17,010 --> 00:24:20,620
Speaker 2: of people, but I don't want my kids ever googling

514
00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:22,060
Speaker 2: oh there's one with that guy and there's one with

515
00:24:22,060 --> 00:24:23,790
Speaker 2: that guy, there's one with that guy, like I just

516
00:24:23,790 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 2: would rather keep all of my private business private. So yeah,

517
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,290
Speaker 2: I think I just keep it under the radar.

518
00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:32,930
Speaker 1: You got quietly divorced a few years ago,

519
00:24:33,650 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: no meal dramas there. How does someone date lee sales

520
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 1: like what sort of guy has the confidence to ask

521
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:42,980
Speaker 1: you out?

522
00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: I think you've got to be reasonably confident to actually

523
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,010
Speaker 2: do that. But I also think that most people, once

524
00:24:51,010 --> 00:24:53,130
Speaker 2: they meet me and kind of get to know me,

525
00:24:53,140 --> 00:24:57,620
Speaker 2: I think fairly rapidly, I'm not very intimidating. I think

526
00:24:57,620 --> 00:25:03,150
Speaker 2: what people find hard sometimes is the way other people

527
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,980
Speaker 2: interact with them. So for example, I've been out with

528
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,550
Speaker 2: men where people have said to them, wow, you must

529
00:25:08,550 --> 00:25:11,410
Speaker 2: have felt intimidated at asking lee out and so

530
00:25:11,650 --> 00:25:14,810
Speaker 2: the message that they're getting is you're punching above your

531
00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:17,820
Speaker 2: weight and I think that's a hard message for men

532
00:25:17,820 --> 00:25:21,460
Speaker 2: to get and so, you know, that's not the message

533
00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:24,670
Speaker 2: I give people that I'm in relationships with or dating,

534
00:25:24,670 --> 00:25:28,220
Speaker 2: but I think that they sometimes feel very heavily scrutinized

535
00:25:28,220 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 2: and I know even my husband things like checking somewhere

536
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:32,290
Speaker 2: to be

537
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: Mr and mrs sales or whatever, which isn't his name.

538
00:25:35,490 --> 00:25:38,670
Speaker 2: So just this assumption that the person is kind of

539
00:25:38,670 --> 00:25:42,130
Speaker 2: just your add on and sometimes they're treated a little

540
00:25:42,130 --> 00:25:44,780
Speaker 2: bit like that. I think that can be kind of

541
00:25:44,780 --> 00:25:48,670
Speaker 2: confronting for people and just the level of people looking

542
00:25:48,670 --> 00:25:51,310
Speaker 2: you up. Like literally looking you up and down, like

543
00:25:51,310 --> 00:25:52,930
Speaker 2: spotting me and then looking the purse

544
00:25:53,350 --> 00:25:56,590
Speaker 2: up and down again. There's nothing you can really do

545
00:25:56,590 --> 00:26:00,110
Speaker 2: about its natural kind of human curiosity. But I often

546
00:26:00,110 --> 00:26:03,370
Speaker 2: feel sorry for people that I'm with in that situation.

547
00:26:03,370 --> 00:26:05,970
Speaker 2: And so for example, say red carpet events, I generally

548
00:26:05,970 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 2: would prefer to take a friend because I don't want

549
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,830
Speaker 2: to subject some poor bugger to that level of scrutiny.

550
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: Did you take a date to the Oscars?

551
00:26:17,890 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: No, you don't. You don't get to take a partner

552
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:21,570
Speaker 2: to the ladies unless you're

553
00:26:23,870 --> 00:26:27,090
Speaker 1: I'm Mia Freedman and you're listening to no filter with

554
00:26:27,090 --> 00:26:28,130
Speaker 1: Leigh sales.

555
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:33,940
Speaker 1: So the time that you've been hosting on 7:30, the

556
00:26:33,940 --> 00:26:37,540
Speaker 1: world's changed in terms of social media

557
00:26:38,110 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: and as a journalist and a working journalist,

558
00:26:42,730 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: how have you seen that change? How have you experienced

559
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,490
Speaker 1: that change? Because back in the day it used to be,

560
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:51,550
Speaker 1: if someone had a problem, they would, I don't know,

561
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: ring the abc or they would write a letter which

562
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,830
Speaker 1: they would have to get a stamp for. And then

563
00:26:56,830 --> 00:27:01,180
Speaker 1: of course there was email. Now the whole performative side

564
00:27:01,180 --> 00:27:04,380
Speaker 1: of things has come in with social media, How have

565
00:27:04,380 --> 00:27:07,380
Speaker 1: you experienced that shift? Like when do you remember thinking,

566
00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:08,500
Speaker 1: oh this is different.

567
00:27:09,690 --> 00:27:12,370
Speaker 2: I definitely remember this is a long time ago back

568
00:27:12,370 --> 00:27:17,610
Speaker 2: in 2005 being just blown away by changing technology, I

569
00:27:17,610 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: was covering Hurricane Katrina and my producer at the time

570
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,110
Speaker 2: was an American guy called Jason Rocky.

571
00:27:22,270 --> 00:27:25,770
Speaker 2: And we were at New Orleans airport and we went

572
00:27:25,770 --> 00:27:29,190
Speaker 2: outside onto like a kind of grassy area outside the

573
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:31,890
Speaker 2: airport and he had you know what we would now

574
00:27:31,890 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: think it's just like a wireless total that he shoved

575
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,340
Speaker 2: into the USB on the side of laptop and we

576
00:27:36,340 --> 00:27:39,100
Speaker 2: filed voice reports and we sent them from the field.

577
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:40,900
Speaker 2: Now that was the first time ever that I hadn't

578
00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:42,870
Speaker 2: had to go back to find a phone line to

579
00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 2: plug into to send audio material back.

580
00:27:46,410 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking this is unbelievable, this is a

581
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,770
Speaker 2: complete game changer.

582
00:27:53,030 --> 00:27:54,870
Speaker 2: And so that for me was a real moment of

583
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: thinking how much things changed I think then technology moved

584
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 2: really fast. But then of course during the pandemic when

585
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,190
Speaker 2: we all had to adapt to using technology differently, even

586
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:07,100
Speaker 2: the way you and I are doing this podcast now,

587
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,820
Speaker 2: I'm sitting at my house, you're in your office, it's

588
00:28:09,820 --> 00:28:12,540
Speaker 2: all professionally recorded. Like we've all had to learn to

589
00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:15,010
Speaker 2: do that. I did 730 out of my bedroom down

590
00:28:15,010 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 2: the hallway. So that was another moment of thinking, wow,

591
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:21,580
Speaker 2: this is an incredible update.

592
00:28:21,910 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: And then also of course there's been the rise of

593
00:28:25,210 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 2: social media and I think probably around it's definitely been

594
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,510
Speaker 2: since my colleague Mark Coleman died, which was in 2017

595
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,470
Speaker 2: because I remember when mark was alive, we were never

596
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:40,730
Speaker 2: talking about Twitter being a nasty vicious kind of place

597
00:28:40,730 --> 00:28:43,530
Speaker 2: and that it wasn't hyper partisan and mark was like

598
00:28:43,530 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: a very very voracious user of Twitter.

599
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:49,530
Speaker 2: And so it's definitely happened since then. So in my

600
00:28:49,530 --> 00:28:53,970
Speaker 2: head I think something's changed marc died where that platform

601
00:28:53,970 --> 00:28:58,190
Speaker 2: in particular has become just a kind of hate fueled

602
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,810
Speaker 2: hyper partisan sort of place.

603
00:29:01,130 --> 00:29:05,970
Speaker 2: And so I think that what's happened is that platform

604
00:29:05,980 --> 00:29:08,970
Speaker 2: which really I don't know anyone on it other than

605
00:29:08,980 --> 00:29:12,250
Speaker 2: journals like in my world say for example, you know

606
00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:15,980
Speaker 2: I come from Brisbane, my friends range from teachers to

607
00:29:15,980 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: police officers, secretaries, university workers and so on. None of

608
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,050
Speaker 2: them are on twitter and none of them were aware

609
00:29:22,050 --> 00:29:24,180
Speaker 2: for example, of the level of abuse that gets meted

610
00:29:24,180 --> 00:29:26,990
Speaker 2: out at female journalists on twitter just for doing their job.

611
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,410
Speaker 2: And so the only people who ever raised with me

612
00:29:29,410 --> 00:29:32,620
Speaker 2: twitter or abuse on twitter, social media abuse are actually

613
00:29:32,620 --> 00:29:36,260
Speaker 2: other journals because so many journals are on twitter and

614
00:29:36,260 --> 00:29:39,270
Speaker 2: so their assumption is oh this represents the world, everyone's

615
00:29:39,270 --> 00:29:42,900
Speaker 2: on twitter. Whereas the abc actually we did some research

616
00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:43,860
Speaker 2: last year and I think we've

617
00:29:43,870 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: found something like nine out of 100 people used twitter regularly,

618
00:29:47,330 --> 00:29:50,340
Speaker 2: hardly anybody is on their, when you think about it

619
00:29:50,340 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: as well that people who are particularly active who can

620
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,450
Speaker 2: sit on a social media platform all day and commentate

621
00:29:55,450 --> 00:29:58,980
Speaker 2: on what's on abc news breakfast or commentate all day

622
00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:02,100
Speaker 2: on somebody's newspaper column. I mean what do you do

623
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:03,910
Speaker 2: for a job or what's going on in your life

624
00:30:03,910 --> 00:30:06,170
Speaker 2: that actually you have that much time that you can

625
00:30:06,170 --> 00:30:09,540
Speaker 2: devote to that? So by its nature it can't possibly

626
00:30:09,540 --> 00:30:10,890
Speaker 2: be representative.

627
00:30:11,180 --> 00:30:14,910
Speaker 2: A lot of that stuff that I think preoccupies journalists

628
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,780
Speaker 2: around the importance of twitter and what's trending on twitter

629
00:30:17,780 --> 00:30:20,090
Speaker 2: and what people are saying on twitter is actually not

630
00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:23,340
Speaker 2: very important and it's afforded way too much power and

631
00:30:23,340 --> 00:30:26,130
Speaker 2: influence in the media in my view based on how

632
00:30:26,130 --> 00:30:27,890
Speaker 2: much real people actually use it.

633
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of erroneous reports around the fact

634
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: that you're leaving 7 30 because of twitter trolling. It's

635
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: a pretty easy story, I've actually never heard you complain

636
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,470
Speaker 1: or be worried or do anything other than eye roll

637
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:45,620
Speaker 1: about twitter trolls. How do you think this has sort

638
00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: of become the narrative?

639
00:30:47,540 --> 00:30:50,830
Speaker 2: Well, I just think that again, because Jonah is on

640
00:30:50,830 --> 00:30:54,150
Speaker 2: twitter all the time and they would see, you know

641
00:30:54,150 --> 00:30:56,130
Speaker 2: the level of abuse that I get, they think that

642
00:30:56,140 --> 00:31:00,010
Speaker 2: oh it must be because you know, she's getting abused,

643
00:31:00,020 --> 00:31:02,870
Speaker 2: Hamish blake when I announced I was leaving, sent me

644
00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: this really interesting and lovely text message and he said,

645
00:31:07,330 --> 00:31:10,610
Speaker 2: people often have a really hard time understanding when somebody's

646
00:31:10,610 --> 00:31:13,260
Speaker 2: choosing to leave a great job at the top of

647
00:31:13,260 --> 00:31:17,270
Speaker 2: their game of their own choosing. And he said, they

648
00:31:17,270 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: assume that there must be a secret reason, like you

649
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,730
Speaker 2: must have a new job or a secret thing lined

650
00:31:21,730 --> 00:31:23,650
Speaker 2: up or there must be something secretly

651
00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: going on in your life that nobody knows about or

652
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,260
Speaker 2: you must be getting pushed. And he said, but when

653
00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:30,820
Speaker 2: I see someone announced what you've just announced, I feel

654
00:31:30,820 --> 00:31:33,650
Speaker 2: nothing but excitement for them, that they have taken control

655
00:31:33,650 --> 00:31:37,890
Speaker 2: of that situation, they've made an empowered decision. And now

656
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:39,980
Speaker 2: there's fresh fields ahead and something to do.

657
00:31:40,330 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: And when I got it, I thought because my text

658
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,410
Speaker 2: messages were just full of people going, oh my God, wow,

659
00:31:45,420 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: that's huge. And Hamish actually, I thought, yes, he 100%

660
00:31:50,450 --> 00:31:53,930
Speaker 2: gets it. He totally gets why I'm going. And so

661
00:31:53,930 --> 00:31:56,570
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people have been casting around

662
00:31:56,570 --> 00:31:59,140
Speaker 2: looking for what's the real reason because who could possibly

663
00:31:59,140 --> 00:32:02,260
Speaker 2: give up this job in the position she's in now,

664
00:32:02,270 --> 00:32:04,170
Speaker 2: but the reality is that I do

665
00:32:04,180 --> 00:32:06,460
Speaker 2: enjoy the job and I do really like it. But

666
00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:08,670
Speaker 2: I said to kate and Mark right at the start,

667
00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:11,270
Speaker 2: but I thought it was about a 10 year job

668
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,190
Speaker 2: and I've been doing it now for coming up to

669
00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:17,970
Speaker 2: 12 11.5. And so I never have wanted to be

670
00:32:17,970 --> 00:32:21,900
Speaker 2: somebody who waits till they're kind of stale and people

671
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,460
Speaker 2: want them to go, I wanted to go when I

672
00:32:24,460 --> 00:32:28,030
Speaker 2: felt like I was at a really good position

673
00:32:28,210 --> 00:32:31,940
Speaker 2: and you know, I was incredibly grateful when I told

674
00:32:31,950 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: the head of the abc David Anderson and Justin Stephens

675
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,750
Speaker 2: who was at the time that 7:30 p.m. Is now

676
00:32:36,750 --> 00:32:38,770
Speaker 2: the head of news and Gavin Fang, who was the

677
00:32:38,770 --> 00:32:41,910
Speaker 2: acting head of news, they all said variations of

678
00:32:42,420 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: is there anything we can say to change your mind? Like,

679
00:32:45,050 --> 00:32:46,630
Speaker 2: you know, we would love you to keep doing it,

680
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,900
Speaker 2: but we assume that you've thought it through a lot

681
00:32:48,910 --> 00:32:52,540
Speaker 2: if you've come to us. And I really, really appreciated

682
00:32:52,540 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: that that was the response that I got. And that

683
00:32:55,530 --> 00:32:59,450
Speaker 2: actually helped me understand I've judged this right because what

684
00:32:59,450 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: I didn't want to ever go and then to go, great,

685
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: thank you so much because you know, they've wanted me

686
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,060
Speaker 2: to disappear. And so honestly people keep asking me all

687
00:33:10,060 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: the time, you know,

688
00:33:11,410 --> 00:33:13,110
Speaker 2: what are you going to, what do you want to do?

689
00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:14,690
Speaker 2: And when I say, I don't know, I want to

690
00:33:14,690 --> 00:33:16,010
Speaker 2: have a break. I want to have a rest and

691
00:33:16,010 --> 00:33:19,490
Speaker 2: see what grows up. People have a hard time believing that.

692
00:33:19,490 --> 00:33:22,620
Speaker 2: So I keep reading this erroneous speculation as well about

693
00:33:22,620 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: what I'm going to do that. I'm going to do

694
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: a talk show. I've never pitched that the abc has

695
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,870
Speaker 2: never offered it. There's been no discussion about it. I

696
00:33:29,870 --> 00:33:32,180
Speaker 2: actually think a show of that nature would not work

697
00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:36,060
Speaker 2: in Australia. So I'm not doing that the twitter stuff

698
00:33:36,060 --> 00:33:39,270
Speaker 2: like you know the Daily Telegraph on the weekend and

699
00:33:39,270 --> 00:33:40,390
Speaker 2: the herald sun

700
00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:43,290
Speaker 2: ran this story that was with a headline that was

701
00:33:43,290 --> 00:33:46,980
Speaker 2: an utter fabrication and it was in direct quotes saying

702
00:33:46,990 --> 00:33:50,030
Speaker 2: trolls forced me out of the job. I love it

703
00:33:50,030 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: is the literal exact opposite to what I said in

704
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,830
Speaker 2: the actual interview to Sarah Lamarche

705
00:33:55,930 --> 00:33:59,710
Speaker 2: in Stella, which is that I ignore trolls. They don't

706
00:33:59,710 --> 00:34:01,820
Speaker 2: have any bearing on my real life. I care about

707
00:34:01,820 --> 00:34:03,910
Speaker 2: the opinions of people who matter to me and who

708
00:34:03,910 --> 00:34:07,350
Speaker 2: are important when I say that again, people find a

709
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:09,570
Speaker 2: hard time believing that I get the level of abuse

710
00:34:09,570 --> 00:34:12,530
Speaker 2: I do and not care about. I really don't give

711
00:34:12,530 --> 00:34:17,900
Speaker 2: a stuff what some anonymous moron thinks about me online.

712
00:34:17,910 --> 00:34:21,950
Speaker 2: I just don't actually care and I'm not saying that

713
00:34:21,950 --> 00:34:23,660
Speaker 2: to try to put a

714
00:34:24,050 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 2: nice blush on it. However, I literally don't actually care.

715
00:34:28,330 --> 00:34:32,930
Speaker 2: So I think sometimes people have a hard time kind

716
00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:37,450
Speaker 2: of processing all of that. But the reality is I

717
00:34:37,450 --> 00:34:42,900
Speaker 2: am leaving because time's limited in life, right? I'm 49.

718
00:34:42,910 --> 00:34:45,350
Speaker 2: I have so many ideas all the time about things

719
00:34:45,350 --> 00:34:48,390
Speaker 2: I'd like to do. 7 30 is a massive job.

720
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,700
Speaker 2: There's limited time to do those things and I mean

721
00:34:50,700 --> 00:34:52,790
Speaker 2: personal life things as well as work things

722
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:55,990
Speaker 2: and so you know the clocks tick tick tick tick

723
00:34:55,990 --> 00:34:57,620
Speaker 2: ticking away all the time and I'm going to run

724
00:34:57,620 --> 00:35:00,020
Speaker 2: out of time to do everything I want to do.

725
00:35:00,030 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 2: And so it just feels like at the end of

726
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,700
Speaker 2: an election cycle and after I've been doing it so

727
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:07,670
Speaker 2: long and where I'm in this position where people still

728
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,230
Speaker 2: respect me doing it, it feels like a great moment

729
00:35:11,230 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 2: to go, yes, I've done everything I can do there

730
00:35:14,490 --> 00:35:16,700
Speaker 2: and it's time to move on to a new challenge

731
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:19,850
Speaker 2: and it literally is as simple as that.

732
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,490
Speaker 1: The other narrative that people like whenever a powerful and

733
00:35:23,490 --> 00:35:24,770
Speaker 1: successful woman

734
00:35:24,780 --> 00:35:25,530
Speaker 2: decides

735
00:35:25,530 --> 00:35:27,460
Speaker 1: to make a change in her career is that you

736
00:35:27,460 --> 00:35:30,530
Speaker 1: can't have it all, feminism's failed

737
00:35:30,980 --> 00:35:31,340
Speaker 2: and

738
00:35:31,340 --> 00:35:34,790
Speaker 1: that it's not compatible having a high powered job with

739
00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:37,620
Speaker 1: a young family, can you speak to that?

740
00:35:37,790 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're so right, that is the other thing that

741
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,900
Speaker 2: people immediately reach for. It is hard to have a

742
00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: high powered career and a family, it is difficult and

743
00:35:47,530 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: I think, you know, when people say you can have

744
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:51,870
Speaker 2: it all, but you can't have it all at once,

745
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 2: you can, it just takes an enormous amount of juggling

746
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,100
Speaker 2: and it takes an enormous amount of assistance and other

747
00:35:59,100 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: p

748
00:35:59,210 --> 00:36:03,250
Speaker 2: people kind of chipping in to help. So, for example,

749
00:36:03,260 --> 00:36:06,220
Speaker 2: my boy's father is really good at chipping in and

750
00:36:06,220 --> 00:36:09,140
Speaker 2: doing what's needed to help care for the boys or

751
00:36:09,150 --> 00:36:11,450
Speaker 2: suddenly being called on to have to change his plans

752
00:36:11,450 --> 00:36:13,090
Speaker 2: because a major story is broken and I have to

753
00:36:13,090 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: go to work, I've had the same nanny for almost

754
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,630
Speaker 2: their entire lives who is just the most extraordinary person

755
00:36:20,810 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 2: and you know, I can leave the kids with her

756
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,690
Speaker 2: and I feel as assured as if they're with me,

757
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:29,380
Speaker 2: my great close friends, Annabelle crab and Gwen and Miranda

758
00:36:29,380 --> 00:36:30,140
Speaker 2: Murphy and

759
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: people like that who have been around to help me

760
00:36:34,050 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: when something unexpected happens and I can't keep all of

761
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,650
Speaker 2: the balls in the air and they swoop in to

762
00:36:39,660 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: assist with a kid or do whatever. Or my friend

763
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,140
Speaker 2: Nick who drove around on short notice the other day

764
00:36:44,140 --> 00:36:46,290
Speaker 2: because my car wouldn't start, the battery was flat and

765
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,250
Speaker 2: you know, whatever he was doing, he just put aside

766
00:36:48,250 --> 00:36:50,690
Speaker 2: to replace my car battery two days after the bloody

767
00:36:50,690 --> 00:36:51,610
Speaker 2: federal election.

768
00:36:51,620 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: So it takes all of that you have to have,

769
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:55,900
Speaker 2: you can't just have plan a, you've got to have

770
00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 2: three or that plan h especially when you're a single

771
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,220
Speaker 2: mother and so you know, that is difficult, but you

772
00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: can do it. But I think what you have to

773
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,210
Speaker 2: think about is and I've spent a lot of time

774
00:37:06,210 --> 00:37:09,090
Speaker 2: in the past 18 months thinking about is what do

775
00:37:09,090 --> 00:37:12,730
Speaker 2: you want your life to look like? And

776
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,780
Speaker 2: what I don't want my life to look like is

777
00:37:15,780 --> 00:37:18,770
Speaker 2: the level of stress that it's had for the past

778
00:37:18,780 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: decade really, while I've had the kids, which is I

779
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,340
Speaker 2: wake up every morning. I feel like I'm in a

780
00:37:24,340 --> 00:37:27,780
Speaker 2: hurry constantly. I wonder what I'm forgetting stuff falls out

781
00:37:27,780 --> 00:37:30,300
Speaker 2: of my brain all the time. I'm not fast at

782
00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:33,020
Speaker 2: responding to my friends text messages. I don't see enough

783
00:37:33,020 --> 00:37:35,500
Speaker 2: of my friends. I want to, I get home from work,

784
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 2: I'm tired. The kids are now at an age where

785
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: they want to talk when I get home from work,

786
00:37:38,930 --> 00:37:41,140
Speaker 2: they get the dregs of me because I get home

787
00:37:41,140 --> 00:37:44,890
Speaker 2: late and so I'm knackered and so I don't want

788
00:37:44,890 --> 00:37:48,660
Speaker 2: to operate like that anymore. I've been able to do

789
00:37:48,660 --> 00:37:51,410
Speaker 2: it and I could keep doing it, but I actually

790
00:37:51,410 --> 00:37:54,950
Speaker 2: don't want to do that anymore. So it's that thing

791
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:58,170
Speaker 2: of identifying, you know, what's important to you, what do

792
00:37:58,170 --> 00:38:00,270
Speaker 2: you want your life to look like? This is of

793
00:38:00,270 --> 00:38:03,230
Speaker 2: course a luxurious position to be in because some people

794
00:38:03,370 --> 00:38:04,900
Speaker 2: I need to earn this amount of,

795
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,130
Speaker 2: because I have to put food on the table for

796
00:38:07,130 --> 00:38:10,070
Speaker 2: my kids and those are calculations, I have to make

797
00:38:10,070 --> 00:38:13,870
Speaker 2: two again because I'm a single mother, I can't just go, oh,

798
00:38:13,870 --> 00:38:16,010
Speaker 2: I'd like to just step away and have a suite

799
00:38:16,010 --> 00:38:18,580
Speaker 2: of projects. Like I kind of need a salary job.

800
00:38:18,580 --> 00:38:22,100
Speaker 2: So I know what I'm doing. I can't take huge risks.

801
00:38:22,110 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 2: You know, I can't kind of go out and just

802
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: make look three my thing. The other point I make around,

803
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,950
Speaker 2: they're having it all kind of thing is that

804
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: most women, I know we have conversations a lot about

805
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,100
Speaker 2: getting women into more senior roles in workplaces. Most women

806
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: I know feel like we barely have our heads above

807
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,790
Speaker 2: water juggling all of our existing responsibilities. And so the

808
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:47,670
Speaker 2: last thing we want is to take on more responsibility

809
00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:49,870
Speaker 2: at work and that's because it's really

810
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: hard to juggle that with our home responsibilities. There was

811
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: an amazing piece last week in the paper that had

812
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,490
Speaker 2: some research around the way that home responsibilities have altered

813
00:38:59,490 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 2: and when you looked at was broken down into two things,

814
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: one was caring for the Children and amazingly that had

815
00:39:05,690 --> 00:39:08,390
Speaker 2: almost equalized between men and women.

816
00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: What was still unbelievably disproportionate on women was mental load

817
00:39:14,090 --> 00:39:18,780
Speaker 2: of running the house and organizing children's activities. So, and

818
00:39:18,780 --> 00:39:20,590
Speaker 2: you know, I think a lot of people would relate

819
00:39:20,590 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: to this that your partner or your husband will be

820
00:39:23,490 --> 00:39:25,590
Speaker 2: awesome at taking the kids to network or whatever as

821
00:39:25,590 --> 00:39:27,180
Speaker 2: long as you tell them and you have enrolled the

822
00:39:27,180 --> 00:39:31,310
Speaker 2: kids in netball, so you just have to still run everything.

823
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,900
Speaker 2: And so that was, I think it was something like 80%

824
00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 2: of the

825
00:39:34,090 --> 00:39:38,530
Speaker 2: shitloads still fell predominantly on two and any women listening

826
00:39:38,530 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: to this will know how full on and draining and

827
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,750
Speaker 2: exhausting that is like I was sitting at the logistics

828
00:39:46,750 --> 00:39:48,710
Speaker 2: and I actually mentioned it to Justin my boss was

829
00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 2: sitting next to me, I was sitting at my table

830
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: at the logistics, texting my nanny to the grocery list

831
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,860
Speaker 2: of what could I get to pick up the next

832
00:39:55,860 --> 00:39:58,500
Speaker 2: day and giving her the plan for the morning for

833
00:39:58,500 --> 00:39:59,470
Speaker 2: school drop

834
00:39:59,770 --> 00:40:02,330
Speaker 2: as I'm sitting at the login because that was the

835
00:40:02,330 --> 00:40:05,580
Speaker 2: first window I had to actually do that. I think

836
00:40:05,580 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 2: that's you know the kind of thing that women relate

837
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,700
Speaker 2: to that that's your brain is ticking the entire time

838
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: about okay what have I got to do to do that?

839
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,630
Speaker 2: And it's really exhausting.

840
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:21,020
Speaker 1: My favorite stories from women are the ones where worlds collide.

841
00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: I know there's a story about when you were pregnant

842
00:40:23,890 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 1: and interviewing Penny wong.

843
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:27,900
Speaker 2: Oh

844
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,170
Speaker 2: so actually I had two funny things with Penny both

845
00:40:31,170 --> 00:40:32,940
Speaker 2: times when I've been pregnant. So the first time I

846
00:40:32,940 --> 00:40:36,290
Speaker 2: was pregnant I was at the midwinter ball in camera.

847
00:40:36,290 --> 00:40:38,910
Speaker 2: Parliament House hadn't announced it publicly yet. And I was

848
00:40:38,910 --> 00:40:41,010
Speaker 2: sitting next to Penny and her partner was sitting on

849
00:40:41,010 --> 00:40:41,980
Speaker 2: her other side.

850
00:40:42,260 --> 00:40:44,220
Speaker 2: And when I announced a few weeks later that I

851
00:40:44,220 --> 00:40:46,260
Speaker 2: was pregnant, Penny rang me and she said I knew

852
00:40:46,260 --> 00:40:49,430
Speaker 2: that you were pregnant because you and Sophie were pushing

853
00:40:49,430 --> 00:40:53,190
Speaker 2: away identical food on your plate and she was expecting

854
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:55,690
Speaker 2: her first child as well. And she said I looked

855
00:40:55,690 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: at what Sophie and it was also a secret. So

856
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,340
Speaker 2: I looked at Sophie was doing what you were doing

857
00:40:59,340 --> 00:41:02,370
Speaker 2: and I thought she's pregnant and she said I didn't

858
00:41:02,370 --> 00:41:05,350
Speaker 2: say anything because I didn't want to breach your privacy

859
00:41:05,350 --> 00:41:08,110
Speaker 2: but I knew it. Anyway then when I was pregnant

860
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,550
Speaker 2: with James. So a couple of years later,

861
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: I interviewed Penny and I forget who her counterpart was

862
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,980
Speaker 2: at the time, she was in government at the time,

863
00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:18,460
Speaker 2: and the start of the interview slightly delayed because I

864
00:41:18,460 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: felt sick and then I had to do the interview

865
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,330
Speaker 2: with a bucket in the studio next to me, I

866
00:41:22,330 --> 00:41:24,950
Speaker 2: felt like I was going to be sick, and Penny

867
00:41:24,950 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: rang me afterwards and she said, you know, and I

868
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,850
Speaker 2: know that you're pregnant again.

869
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,710
Speaker 2: I was catching myself, I was going, Penny literally both

870
00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: times that I've been pregnant mother because

871
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,180
Speaker 1: didn't you have to say to Penny, look if the

872
00:41:45,180 --> 00:41:47,810
Speaker 1: vision cuts out, keep talking,

873
00:41:47,980 --> 00:41:49,910
Speaker 1: I'm just having to have a little vomit.

874
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,070
Speaker 2: I was like you guys have to just keep it

875
00:41:52,070 --> 00:41:55,750
Speaker 2: going and you'll see me disappear, they'll kill my mic

876
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,430
Speaker 2: and then I'll come back in that you're going to

877
00:41:57,430 --> 00:41:59,690
Speaker 2: have to just keep it kind of going, you know,

878
00:41:59,690 --> 00:42:01,450
Speaker 2: the perils of live television,

879
00:42:01,460 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: Did you ever have to do that?

880
00:42:03,370 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 2: No, I haven't ever thrown up on air. It's a

881
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: constant terror actually with

882
00:42:08,180 --> 00:42:10,820
Speaker 2: the kids because you know, young kids always have gastro

883
00:42:10,820 --> 00:42:13,050
Speaker 2: and stuff. I remember one time, you know how many

884
00:42:13,050 --> 00:42:15,350
Speaker 2: kids are young and they have gastro, I hope I'm

885
00:42:15,350 --> 00:42:17,190
Speaker 2: not the only evil person that thinks this, but I'll

886
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: often think when they're being sick, I'll be like feeling

887
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,090
Speaker 2: the pits of despair thinking God I'm going to have

888
00:42:22,090 --> 00:42:24,050
Speaker 2: this in 12 hours and it's just

889
00:42:24,060 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: like you know you're

890
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,370
Speaker 2: Getting it definitely. So I remember one

891
00:42:28,580 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 2: the kids both had gastro and so I was like

892
00:42:30,770 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 2: well this is going to be striking any moment, right?

893
00:42:33,810 --> 00:42:36,540
Speaker 2: So you're always worried live television if you know there's

894
00:42:36,540 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: about a gastro looming. Anyway, I got home at about

895
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 2: 9 15, I started feeling really sick and then I

896
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,930
Speaker 2: was really crook. I remembered I texted Justin and said

897
00:42:44,930 --> 00:42:47,390
Speaker 2: yeah I've got it but it's 9 15

898
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm out the other

899
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: side, so to speak. It's going to be such a

900
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,070
Speaker 2: pleasure to kind of be able to live my life

901
00:42:58,070 --> 00:42:59,950
Speaker 2: and not be worried that I'm going to throw up

902
00:42:59,950 --> 00:43:02,830
Speaker 2: on live tv it's going to be good in

903
00:43:02,830 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 1: terms of the demands of the way things have changed,

904
00:43:05,730 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: not just with twitter but with people not tolerating other

905
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,350
Speaker 1: points of view because that's a new thing

906
00:43:11,550 --> 00:43:14,130
Speaker 1: it used to be, I disagree with you now I

907
00:43:14,130 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: disagree with you, you must apologize and take it down

908
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,190
Speaker 1: or delete it from the public record.

909
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,590
Speaker 1: Have you noticed a big shift in that we're just

910
00:43:23,590 --> 00:43:26,790
Speaker 1: not able to tolerate opinions, we don't agree with any more.

911
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,420
Speaker 2: Yeah and I find it fundamentally disturbing and because I

912
00:43:31,420 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 2: believe in free speech, I think it's really, really concerning

913
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 2: that you can't just go well I disagree with that

914
00:43:37,370 --> 00:43:41,650
Speaker 2: but whatever or even hateful opinions that you wouldn't just

915
00:43:41,650 --> 00:43:43,260
Speaker 2: go well I disagree with that and

916
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,100
Speaker 2: your head, but you're right to believe whatever nonsense you

917
00:43:46,100 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: want to believe. The other thing I find really disturbing

918
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,730
Speaker 2: is so we have a very, when I say we

919
00:43:52,750 --> 00:43:54,650
Speaker 2: really what we're talking about again is the kind of

920
00:43:54,650 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: cancel culture mob on twitter. There's a very low bar

921
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,070
Speaker 2: for mistakes. So you misspeak you word something awkwardly, you

922
00:44:03,070 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 2: can find yourself at the end of a gigantic pile

923
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:06,250
Speaker 2: on

924
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,180
Speaker 2: and that can happen like that. There can be real

925
00:44:09,180 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: world consequences for that. We've seen it over and over again.

926
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 2: Universities accept people or magazines have sacked people. It doesn't

927
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:17,390
Speaker 2: matter what their record is, they could have an immaculate record,

928
00:44:17,390 --> 00:44:20,350
Speaker 2: but one misstep you're out the door. So

929
00:44:20,610 --> 00:44:23,970
Speaker 2: even when people apologize now we don't, forgiveness is very

930
00:44:23,970 --> 00:44:27,750
Speaker 2: hard one. So it's a low bar for being canceled.

931
00:44:27,750 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: It's a high bar to be forgiven. And for people

932
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,950
Speaker 2: to give like I sometimes wonder whatever happened that's saying

933
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:36,140
Speaker 2: the benefit of the doubt. Like, oh yes, you know me,

934
00:44:36,140 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 2: you said something a bit clumsy or lee said something

935
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,330
Speaker 2: a bit clumsy. Generally speaking, we know her to be

936
00:44:41,330 --> 00:44:43,210
Speaker 2: a person of good character who's done a lot of

937
00:44:43,220 --> 00:44:44,740
Speaker 2: good in the world and so therefore we give her

938
00:44:44,740 --> 00:44:44,820
Speaker 2: the

939
00:44:44,830 --> 00:44:47,370
Speaker 2: benefit of the doubt, whereas now it's like, no, sorry

940
00:44:47,380 --> 00:44:49,850
Speaker 2: you are a sexist or you are a racist or

941
00:44:49,850 --> 00:44:52,620
Speaker 2: you are a bigot or whatever it is that gets

942
00:44:52,620 --> 00:44:54,940
Speaker 2: directed at you. So I feel like if we're going

943
00:44:54,940 --> 00:44:58,020
Speaker 2: to have these very stringent standards that we hold people to,

944
00:44:58,020 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: surely we have to have a willingness to forgive people

945
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,290
Speaker 2: and give people space to be human. Because what it's

946
00:45:05,290 --> 00:45:07,380
Speaker 2: going to do is it's going to discourage people from

947
00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 2: doing jobs like mine because

948
00:45:09,510 --> 00:45:11,590
Speaker 2: when you're on live television or even doing an interview

949
00:45:11,590 --> 00:45:14,250
Speaker 2: like this, you and I have been talking off the

950
00:45:14,250 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: top of our head for the best part of 45

951
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 2: minutes as a human being, you can't be certain in

952
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,490
Speaker 2: that period of time that you're not going to say

953
00:45:21,490 --> 00:45:23,580
Speaker 2: something that offends somebody or that you're not actually going

954
00:45:23,580 --> 00:45:26,670
Speaker 2: to say something offensive, you might actually make a mistake

955
00:45:26,670 --> 00:45:28,690
Speaker 2: and say something wrong. So if we get to the

956
00:45:28,690 --> 00:45:31,670
Speaker 2: point where society is so censorious of people that were

957
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,780
Speaker 2: we're all scared to even say a word for fear

958
00:45:33,780 --> 00:45:36,180
Speaker 2: of offending somebody, we're going to be in a very

959
00:45:36,180 --> 00:45:40,610
Speaker 2: bad place. And so I'm hoping somehow that we're going

960
00:45:40,610 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: to have some kind of correction to some of the

961
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 2: stuff we've seen happen of course some of the stuff

962
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: we've seen happen is valuable because you want to call

963
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,700
Speaker 2: out sexism and racism and all kinds of stuff, what

964
00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:53,850
Speaker 2: we don't want to do is

965
00:45:53,860 --> 00:45:58,690
Speaker 2: have these just gigantic bullying episodes of people that do

966
00:45:58,700 --> 00:46:02,930
Speaker 2: incredible harm. I recommend everyone read Jon ronson's book. So

967
00:46:02,930 --> 00:46:06,380
Speaker 2: you've been publicly shamed, which talks about the consequences on

968
00:46:06,380 --> 00:46:10,170
Speaker 2: people who even when they've done stupid things. Find themselves

969
00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:14,950
Speaker 2: with lynch mobs after online. It's really disturbing and it's

970
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:16,030
Speaker 2: a sad trend

971
00:46:16,740 --> 00:46:19,540
Speaker 1: just finally because I know you have to go and

972
00:46:19,540 --> 00:46:22,060
Speaker 1: do your day job, I know you're working on a

973
00:46:22,070 --> 00:46:26,220
Speaker 1: speech about the things you've learned about human nature, off

974
00:46:26,220 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: the top of your head. What have been some of

975
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,490
Speaker 1: the more unexpected things that you've learned?

976
00:46:31,740 --> 00:46:36,340
Speaker 2: I think that humans are unbelievably adaptable and the things

977
00:46:36,340 --> 00:46:38,390
Speaker 2: that you think if that happened to me, I'd never

978
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:40,620
Speaker 2: survive that I wouldn't be I'd rather be dead than

979
00:46:40,620 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 2: that happened to me. Almost everyone that you talked to

980
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: who's experienced something that you yourself in your head would

981
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,430
Speaker 2: think that that's not how people feel when it actually

982
00:46:49,430 --> 00:46:53,210
Speaker 2: happens to them. Humans are unbelievably adaptable and resilient.

983
00:46:53,650 --> 00:46:56,190
Speaker 2: There's a lot of truisms that actually aren't true, like

984
00:46:56,190 --> 00:46:59,650
Speaker 2: for example, hard work pays off. There's many examples in

985
00:46:59,650 --> 00:47:03,550
Speaker 2: life where people have worked incredibly hard and just because

986
00:47:03,550 --> 00:47:06,500
Speaker 2: of luck or happenstance or wrong timing, the hard work

987
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:08,140
Speaker 2: hasn't paid off. So the thing that's coming to my

988
00:47:08,140 --> 00:47:11,190
Speaker 2: mind is Hillary Clinton, she runs in o a it's

989
00:47:11,190 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: Barack Obama once in a lifetime amazing candidates. So she's

990
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 2: an amazing candidate. She's worked really hard, it just didn't

991
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,780
Speaker 2: pay off happens all the time in politics as well,

992
00:47:19,780 --> 00:47:20,610
Speaker 2: where you might have,

993
00:47:20,850 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 2: you know, everyone on both sides, the winning and the

994
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,940
Speaker 2: losing side is working incredibly hard, but one side is

995
00:47:25,940 --> 00:47:28,650
Speaker 2: still going to be the losing side and then Hillary

996
00:47:28,650 --> 00:47:31,110
Speaker 2: clinton again of course with donald trump. So

997
00:47:31,330 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 2: there's that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger? I

998
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,500
Speaker 2: don't actually necessarily believe that to be true. I think

999
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:42,620
Speaker 2: sometimes people are permanently weakened by things that happen to

1000
00:47:42,620 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 2: them and just profoundly changed by the burdens that life

1001
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:48,790
Speaker 2: kind of puts on them. I think it makes you

1002
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:52,260
Speaker 2: different I think rather than stronger. So I think they

1003
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:56,860
Speaker 2: would be the probably most unexpected things. There's probably

1004
00:47:57,820 --> 00:48:00,060
Speaker 2: some, I mean I don't know that this is unexpected,

1005
00:48:00,060 --> 00:48:04,010
Speaker 2: but just things like if you want to achieve highly

1006
00:48:04,010 --> 00:48:06,980
Speaker 2: and reach goals, we all know that that's going to

1007
00:48:06,980 --> 00:48:09,720
Speaker 2: involve probably failure. Like you have to be prepared to

1008
00:48:09,730 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: embrace failure.

1009
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,230
Speaker 2: But I also think working at your capacity means you

1010
00:48:14,230 --> 00:48:16,340
Speaker 2: have to be prepared that most of the time you're

1011
00:48:16,340 --> 00:48:17,990
Speaker 2: going to be operating in a space that makes you

1012
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,170
Speaker 2: uncomfortable because you're always at the limits of what you're

1013
00:48:21,170 --> 00:48:23,930
Speaker 2: capable of doing and that's not a very comfortable place

1014
00:48:23,930 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: to operate so many times in my job, I feel uncomfortable,

1015
00:48:28,210 --> 00:48:32,670
Speaker 2: like anxious, scared, fearful because I'm operating right at the

1016
00:48:32,670 --> 00:48:33,380
Speaker 2: limits of what I'm

1017
00:48:33,390 --> 00:48:36,900
Speaker 2: capable of doing and so I think you have to

1018
00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 2: be prepared to embrace that and understand that this is

1019
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,580
Speaker 2: going to come with feeling uncomfortable, but the feeling at

1020
00:48:42,580 --> 00:48:45,010
Speaker 2: the other side of having done it is great because

1021
00:48:45,010 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 2: partly relief because you get away from the feeling of discomfort,

1022
00:48:47,810 --> 00:48:50,220
Speaker 2: but it's also that sense of accomplishment that I pushed

1023
00:48:50,220 --> 00:48:52,930
Speaker 2: through those kind of hard feelings.

1024
00:48:52,940 --> 00:48:55,610
Speaker 1: Did you have a catheter in on election night?

1025
00:48:55,620 --> 00:48:58,450
Speaker 2: I did not have a catheter in but I wasn't

1026
00:48:58,450 --> 00:49:01,420
Speaker 2: drinking water from about 1:00. The only way to get

1027
00:49:01,420 --> 00:49:02,970
Speaker 2: through it, I'm afraid

1028
00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:08,150
Speaker 2: because you're on for so long, you know, it was

1029
00:49:08,150 --> 00:49:10,700
Speaker 2: about six hours this time. It's been six hours every

1030
00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:12,590
Speaker 2: time I've hosted it and it just seems we can't

1031
00:49:12,590 --> 00:49:14,550
Speaker 2: have a quick election these days. And so Annabelle and

1032
00:49:14,550 --> 00:49:18,390
Speaker 2: I often talk about limiting, literally limiting our fluid intake

1033
00:49:18,590 --> 00:49:20,290
Speaker 1: like bodybuilders,

1034
00:49:20,570 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: Bodybuilders. Exactly, We look really buff by the end of

1035
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,030
Speaker 2: election night, me and Annabelle

1036
00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:28,590
Speaker 1: really good muscle definition, that's why you do it.

1037
00:49:30,170 --> 00:49:33,740
Speaker 1: I love you, I thank you. And if twitter's done

1038
00:49:33,740 --> 00:49:37,380
Speaker 1: one thing in its life, it's introduced me to you,

1039
00:49:37,390 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: that's how we became friends. So

1040
00:49:39,050 --> 00:49:42,450
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah. And you know, it did in the early days, twitter,

1041
00:49:42,450 --> 00:49:45,100
Speaker 2: it was wonderful for all the kind of eclectic people

1042
00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: that you met that you wouldn't have come across, you know,

1043
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,790
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I'll always be grateful for that too.

1044
00:49:49,790 --> 00:49:51,990
Speaker 2: I made some beautiful friends out of twitter. You chief

1045
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 2: among

1046
00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:54,020
Speaker 1: them. I love you, I

1047
00:49:54,030 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 2: love you.

1048
00:49:57,170 --> 00:50:01,180
Speaker 1: Did you love that? That's lee sales. Ladies and gentlemen,

1049
00:50:01,190 --> 00:50:03,970
Speaker 1: one of my favorite lee stories is that after she

1050
00:50:03,970 --> 00:50:06,930
Speaker 1: interviewed Shane warne, I don't know if you saw that interview.

1051
00:50:06,940 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 1: It was replayed just after he died recently and she

1052
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: knows nothing about sports. But still she really found him

1053
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: to be so engaging. They got on really, really well.

1054
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: And you can see that through the interview. Like he's

1055
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:19,930
Speaker 1: a bit

1056
00:50:20,100 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: reticent at first, like he's kind of like, what does

1057
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,570
Speaker 1: she want to talk to me about? But part of

1058
00:50:25,570 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: her skill as an interviewer is immediately putting people at

1059
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 1: ease whether they're Shane warne or a prime Minister during

1060
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:36,540
Speaker 1: an election campaign or a treasurer on budget night or

1061
00:50:36,550 --> 00:50:40,380
Speaker 1: someone who's just experienced an enormous tragedy.

1062
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,110
Speaker 1: So this report, she develops with her subjects often carries

1063
00:50:45,110 --> 00:50:48,470
Speaker 1: on and she tells the funniest story about how she

1064
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 1: and Shane, I think they were both promoting books at

1065
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,900
Speaker 1: the same time. She was promoting any ordinary day and

1066
00:50:53,900 --> 00:50:56,740
Speaker 1: Shane was promoting, I don't know, he'd probably written an

1067
00:50:56,750 --> 00:50:57,700
Speaker 1: autobiography

1068
00:50:58,220 --> 00:51:01,580
Speaker 1: and so they would have these text banters about who

1069
00:51:01,590 --> 00:51:03,900
Speaker 1: could sign the most amount of books in the shortest

1070
00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: amount of time and they have to do these book

1071
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,870
Speaker 1: signings and they'd just be like trying to beat each

1072
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: other because lee is also very, very competitive. I hope

1073
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,980
Speaker 1: you enjoyed that. You know where to find lee she's

1074
00:51:13,980 --> 00:51:17,410
Speaker 1: on the television, she's on a podcast. Please buy that

1075
00:51:17,410 --> 00:51:19,460
Speaker 1: book if you haven't already. Please buy that book for

1076
00:51:19,460 --> 00:51:21,740
Speaker 1: someone who might have suddenly experienced

1077
00:51:22,010 --> 00:51:25,770
Speaker 1: a tragedy or a sudden change in their life. I

1078
00:51:25,770 --> 00:51:29,210
Speaker 1: was sort of dreading reading it because it sounded really

1079
00:51:29,210 --> 00:51:33,260
Speaker 1: grim interviewing people like walter macaque after he lost his

1080
00:51:33,260 --> 00:51:36,310
Speaker 1: wife and his Children at Port Arthur or people who

1081
00:51:36,310 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 1: had suddenly lost loved ones in awful circumstances. But it

1082
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:41,270
Speaker 1: was actually

1083
00:51:41,370 --> 00:51:43,170
Speaker 1: I had to read it obviously because she was my friend.

1084
00:51:43,180 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: But then I just loved it. It was so engaging,

1085
00:51:47,050 --> 00:51:51,530
Speaker 1: it was so conversational and you saw a side of

1086
00:51:51,530 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 1: lee that most people don't see. But also she just

1087
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:58,070
Speaker 1: brought such humanity and nuance and context to these stories.

1088
00:51:58,070 --> 00:52:00,740
Speaker 1: It was just a beautiful, beautiful book.

1089
00:52:01,300 --> 00:52:06,070
Speaker 1: Anyway, no filter is produced by lots of people at

1090
00:52:06,070 --> 00:52:08,910
Speaker 1: the moment because Liz Ratliff, who is the executive producer

1091
00:52:08,910 --> 00:52:12,090
Speaker 1: is away. So it's been a cast of thousands involved

1092
00:52:12,090 --> 00:52:14,470
Speaker 1: in this one and I'm grateful to every single one

1093
00:52:14,470 --> 00:52:14,950
Speaker 1: of them.

1094
00:52:20,610 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: This podcast was made by Mama Mia. If you want

1095
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,870
Speaker 1: to support women's media, we'd love it If you became

1096
00:52:25,870 --> 00:52:28,390
Speaker 1: a Mamma Mia subscriber there is a link in the

1097
00:52:28,390 --> 00:52:29,070
Speaker 1: show notes