1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,382 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:21,782 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on I promise that it's 4 00:00:21,822 --> 00:00:24,382 Speaker 2: only like two more days. I'm allowed to reference Meghan 5 00:00:24,462 --> 00:00:28,542 Speaker 2: and everything if her TV show is a legitimate hit. 6 00:00:29,182 --> 00:00:31,862 Speaker 2: Partly it's snaff bit because the people who hater will 7 00:00:31,862 --> 00:00:35,022 Speaker 2: watch it and go back, But the actual show itself 8 00:00:35,101 --> 00:00:44,702 Speaker 2: is so inoffensive and pleasant. Hello and welcome to MoMA 9 00:00:44,742 --> 00:00:47,422 Speaker 2: Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking about 10 00:00:47,422 --> 00:00:50,902 Speaker 2: on Monday, the tenth of March. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm. 11 00:00:50,742 --> 00:00:52,702 Speaker 3: Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 12 00:00:53,062 --> 00:00:56,502 Speaker 2: And on the show today we all got exactly what 13 00:00:56,582 --> 00:01:00,302 Speaker 2: we wanted for International Women's Day, Validation that yes, we 14 00:01:00,382 --> 00:01:05,542 Speaker 2: do do absolutely everything, and some helpful feedback from Rob Catter. Also, 15 00:01:06,102 --> 00:01:09,262 Speaker 2: why after a weekend of digesting with love Meghan and 16 00:01:09,301 --> 00:01:12,862 Speaker 2: some wickles sprinkled with flowers, It's clear that the royal 17 00:01:12,862 --> 00:01:16,982 Speaker 2: family made a big mistake and what is snuff? We 18 00:01:17,102 --> 00:01:19,062 Speaker 2: hate to break it to you, but it's all over 19 00:01:19,102 --> 00:01:24,062 Speaker 2: your phone. But first, I still love you, and I'm like. 20 00:01:25,662 --> 00:01:28,422 Speaker 1: This is exhausting, you know, like we're never getting that 21 00:01:28,622 --> 00:01:30,862 Speaker 1: together like ever No. 22 00:01:31,982 --> 00:01:32,862 Speaker 3: It hps, you missed it. 23 00:01:32,942 --> 00:01:35,862 Speaker 1: Ben Afleck continues to be a lazy boy by dipping 24 00:01:35,902 --> 00:01:39,022 Speaker 1: back into his bag of ex wives called Jennifer. The 25 00:01:39,102 --> 00:01:43,102 Speaker 1: gossip over the weekend was that now his Jennifer Lopez 26 00:01:43,142 --> 00:01:47,902 Speaker 1: divorce has been finalized, he is sniffing around the original 27 00:01:47,982 --> 00:01:52,062 Speaker 1: Jennifer ex wife, Ghana. Page six published photos of Affleck 28 00:01:52,142 --> 00:01:56,062 Speaker 1: and Jennifer Ghana sharing a laugh at their son's paintball party, 29 00:01:56,182 --> 00:01:58,662 Speaker 1: and the next day a source told the outlet that 30 00:01:58,662 --> 00:02:01,982 Speaker 1: Affleck would love another chance. The insider added that the 31 00:02:02,022 --> 00:02:04,942 Speaker 1: actor would definitely be open to giving things another shot 32 00:02:04,982 --> 00:02:07,422 Speaker 1: with Jen if the timing is ever right, but that 33 00:02:07,542 --> 00:02:10,702 Speaker 1: he knows it's just not realistic time in their lives, 34 00:02:11,302 --> 00:02:12,742 Speaker 1: which is a bit of a weird thing to say, 35 00:02:12,781 --> 00:02:16,982 Speaker 1: because Jennifer Ghana has been dating a businessman called John Miller. 36 00:02:17,022 --> 00:02:21,262 Speaker 1: He's like the heir to a big Hamburger franchise. She's 37 00:02:21,302 --> 00:02:24,622 Speaker 1: been dating him since twenty eighteen, a little bit on 38 00:02:24,702 --> 00:02:27,342 Speaker 1: and off, but they're currently on. My question is. 39 00:02:27,942 --> 00:02:30,862 Speaker 4: Why you missed the part about the body language expert 40 00:02:30,902 --> 00:02:33,262 Speaker 4: who had some things to say about how when men 41 00:02:33,302 --> 00:02:36,422 Speaker 4: and women hetero men and women usually hug They keep 42 00:02:36,462 --> 00:02:40,501 Speaker 4: their pelviss apart to indicate space and not a romantic investment. 43 00:02:40,862 --> 00:02:43,782 Speaker 4: But their pelvis is rubbed, which is. 44 00:02:44,302 --> 00:02:48,221 Speaker 2: But that's because they have rubbed before exactly, and so 45 00:02:48,262 --> 00:02:50,302 Speaker 2: they have muscle memory of rubbing. 46 00:02:50,702 --> 00:02:50,822 Speaker 1: Well. 47 00:02:50,942 --> 00:02:53,622 Speaker 2: I think that Jennifer Ghana is way too smart to 48 00:02:53,702 --> 00:02:54,902 Speaker 2: go anywhere in that. 49 00:02:55,181 --> 00:02:57,862 Speaker 4: Ever, Again, I agree with you one hundred percent, but 50 00:02:57,982 --> 00:03:00,742 Speaker 4: it reminded me of a certain type of man and 51 00:03:00,822 --> 00:03:05,942 Speaker 4: perhaps woman who exclusively only dates the same people. Again, 52 00:03:06,062 --> 00:03:10,062 Speaker 4: I think because they're incapable of emotionally investing in a 53 00:03:10,222 --> 00:03:12,462 Speaker 4: new person and learning about who they are. There's an 54 00:03:12,542 --> 00:03:15,822 Speaker 4: ease to kind of fitting in two year old pair 55 00:03:15,862 --> 00:03:18,302 Speaker 4: of jeans rather than having to go out and try 56 00:03:18,302 --> 00:03:22,702 Speaker 4: on a new pair underpants. Yeah, and I have experienced this. 57 00:03:22,862 --> 00:03:26,341 Speaker 4: I had partners in my twenties who we would break 58 00:03:26,422 --> 00:03:28,942 Speaker 4: up and then they'd come back and I'd go, I 59 00:03:29,062 --> 00:03:33,942 Speaker 4: knew it, I'm so desirable irresistible that finally he's back. 60 00:03:33,982 --> 00:03:36,182 Speaker 4: But he was just back because he didn't want to 61 00:03:36,182 --> 00:03:39,102 Speaker 4: bother getting to know a new one, and I was easy. 62 00:03:39,342 --> 00:03:41,742 Speaker 1: I think there are other Jennifers that Ben could move 63 00:03:41,782 --> 00:03:46,622 Speaker 1: on to that he hasn't pollinated. Before, such as Jennifer Aniston. 64 00:03:47,062 --> 00:03:50,542 Speaker 2: That would be me. That would be Imagine how excited 65 00:03:50,582 --> 00:03:51,702 Speaker 2: I would be if that happened. 66 00:03:52,262 --> 00:03:54,862 Speaker 1: We could gossip Jennie that one. Jennifer love Hewitt is 67 00:03:54,902 --> 00:03:59,382 Speaker 1: an option. Yeah, I think she's married, but anyway, and 68 00:03:59,422 --> 00:04:03,502 Speaker 1: also my request would be Jennifer Coolidge, Oh, that would 69 00:04:03,502 --> 00:04:04,062 Speaker 1: be awesome. 70 00:04:04,422 --> 00:04:06,982 Speaker 3: Is she single? I believe she is fabulous? 71 00:04:08,142 --> 00:04:12,462 Speaker 4: Friends, Saturday was into National Women's Day. How did you celebrate, Holleen? 72 00:04:12,462 --> 00:04:13,782 Speaker 4: What did you do on this Saturday? 73 00:04:14,942 --> 00:04:19,101 Speaker 2: Well, gosh, I was alone with my children. Brent's been away, 74 00:04:19,541 --> 00:04:22,782 Speaker 2: so I did a lot of what I believe statistically 75 00:04:22,902 --> 00:04:26,981 Speaker 2: is called women's work. Several loads of washing, cooked at 76 00:04:27,061 --> 00:04:31,261 Speaker 2: least three meals, did some shopping, drove a daughter to work, 77 00:04:31,782 --> 00:04:35,181 Speaker 2: organized a playdate in inverted commons, which just means trying 78 00:04:35,222 --> 00:04:38,902 Speaker 2: to prize young boys off video games. That was it. 79 00:04:39,022 --> 00:04:42,301 Speaker 2: That was my day. Yay me celebration, Maya. 80 00:04:42,342 --> 00:04:42,742 Speaker 3: How about you? 81 00:04:42,782 --> 00:04:45,101 Speaker 1: What did you do? I made myself a cake, Okay, 82 00:04:45,621 --> 00:04:48,022 Speaker 1: not because I remembered that it was International Women's Day, 83 00:04:48,022 --> 00:04:49,782 Speaker 1: just because I felt like a cake and no one 84 00:04:49,861 --> 00:04:52,181 Speaker 1: else would make one. But I made it out of 85 00:04:52,181 --> 00:04:54,742 Speaker 1: a cake mix, so it wasn't very elevated. Okay, I'm 86 00:04:54,821 --> 00:04:56,741 Speaker 1: shamed to say, got my nails done and I had 87 00:04:56,782 --> 00:04:58,062 Speaker 1: a nap. So I had a great day. 88 00:04:58,981 --> 00:05:03,621 Speaker 4: I forgot that it was Saturday. But on Sunday I 89 00:05:03,702 --> 00:05:06,582 Speaker 4: went to hear you speak Maya on a panel which 90 00:05:07,061 --> 00:05:07,861 Speaker 4: was lovely. 91 00:05:07,981 --> 00:05:09,942 Speaker 3: It was great. I'm going to tell you all about 92 00:05:09,941 --> 00:05:10,222 Speaker 3: it later. 93 00:05:10,222 --> 00:05:13,221 Speaker 4: Holly and I went to another panel that my friend 94 00:05:13,301 --> 00:05:15,182 Speaker 4: was on at all about women, and I realized that 95 00:05:15,222 --> 00:05:18,421 Speaker 4: there's this tendency, I think for women on or around 96 00:05:18,462 --> 00:05:22,741 Speaker 4: International Women's Day to spend a decent amount of money 97 00:05:22,782 --> 00:05:25,061 Speaker 4: to go and hear other women speak about things they 98 00:05:25,101 --> 00:05:28,021 Speaker 4: agree with and applaud, while men. 99 00:05:28,022 --> 00:05:30,941 Speaker 3: Just get to sit at home in their pajamas or eat. 100 00:05:30,821 --> 00:05:32,101 Speaker 1: Lunch and money. 101 00:05:32,262 --> 00:05:34,662 Speaker 4: Yeah, I had a full I had quite a full 102 00:05:34,741 --> 00:05:38,462 Speaker 4: Sunday due to International Women's Day commitments, and no one 103 00:05:39,262 --> 00:05:39,981 Speaker 4: made me a cake. 104 00:05:40,741 --> 00:05:41,301 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. 105 00:05:41,462 --> 00:05:42,581 Speaker 3: Is there any of your cake left? 106 00:05:42,702 --> 00:05:42,902 Speaker 5: Yep? 107 00:05:43,101 --> 00:05:43,661 Speaker 3: Okay, great. 108 00:05:44,342 --> 00:05:47,662 Speaker 4: I saw some headlines which I really wanted to discuss 109 00:05:47,702 --> 00:05:50,821 Speaker 4: with you both. So when the clock ticked over to 110 00:05:50,902 --> 00:05:53,301 Speaker 4: March eight, we were all restless. 111 00:05:53,342 --> 00:05:53,941 Speaker 3: I know we were. 112 00:05:54,782 --> 00:05:57,301 Speaker 4: We were impatient because we needed to know what Robbie Catter, 113 00:05:57,621 --> 00:06:00,181 Speaker 4: the leader of Kata's Australian Party and MP son of 114 00:06:00,181 --> 00:06:03,182 Speaker 4: Bobby Catter, had to say about this momentous occasion. 115 00:06:04,381 --> 00:06:05,662 Speaker 3: He delivered he always does. 116 00:06:06,501 --> 00:06:09,501 Speaker 4: In a Facebook post, Katter shared his thoughts on Internet 117 00:06:09,782 --> 00:06:13,462 Speaker 4: Women's Day, which he describes as pushing a dangerous agenda 118 00:06:13,541 --> 00:06:17,301 Speaker 4: by turning women into victims and demonizing men. He wrote 119 00:06:17,301 --> 00:06:20,222 Speaker 4: that the official theme this year was Accelerate Action, and 120 00:06:20,262 --> 00:06:21,902 Speaker 4: I'm going to stop him there, because that's not the thing. 121 00:06:23,582 --> 00:06:27,581 Speaker 4: It's a long story, but this random organization purchased the 122 00:06:27,621 --> 00:06:30,301 Speaker 4: domain name for International Women's Day and puts out their 123 00:06:30,342 --> 00:06:33,421 Speaker 4: own theme every year creates what I'm going to call 124 00:06:33,501 --> 00:06:37,822 Speaker 4: corporate confusion. We go by the UN Australia theme, which 125 00:06:37,941 --> 00:06:39,421 Speaker 4: was actually March Forward. 126 00:06:39,582 --> 00:06:42,101 Speaker 3: Anyway, he got the theme wrong, But point. 127 00:06:41,941 --> 00:06:45,061 Speaker 2: Is we're much former than accelerate. The kind of similar 128 00:06:45,262 --> 00:06:47,061 Speaker 2: yeah like ballpark? 129 00:06:49,821 --> 00:06:53,342 Speaker 3: Okay, well, reach for the Stars that's next to go 130 00:06:53,501 --> 00:06:55,782 Speaker 3: You go girl. 131 00:06:56,142 --> 00:06:58,662 Speaker 4: According to Katta, he wrote that women are not oppressed. 132 00:06:58,821 --> 00:07:01,662 Speaker 4: He said, my success has been built on the quiet, 133 00:07:01,821 --> 00:07:05,021 Speaker 4: unwavering strength of the women behind me. 134 00:07:05,421 --> 00:07:08,941 Speaker 1: Does that do sound a little bit oppressive? Being behind 135 00:07:08,981 --> 00:07:11,862 Speaker 1: and underneath? I'm mister Carter. 136 00:07:12,062 --> 00:07:15,022 Speaker 4: When men talk about the women behind them, My mother 137 00:07:15,222 --> 00:07:18,941 Speaker 4: wife and daughters. They're not looking for praise, according to him, 138 00:07:19,381 --> 00:07:22,062 Speaker 4: just getting on with the hard work, supporting and pushing boundaries. 139 00:07:22,062 --> 00:07:23,942 Speaker 4: The women in my life don't get caught up in 140 00:07:23,982 --> 00:07:26,262 Speaker 4: the victimhood off and pushed on this day. They live 141 00:07:26,342 --> 00:07:29,622 Speaker 4: their strength every day, quietly and powerfully with that's convenient 142 00:07:29,702 --> 00:07:29,941 Speaker 4: for him. 143 00:07:30,022 --> 00:07:32,141 Speaker 3: Credit, Yeah, I love that. 144 00:07:32,782 --> 00:07:35,381 Speaker 4: It's like when your partner says like, oh, I love 145 00:07:35,381 --> 00:07:37,461 Speaker 4: how we don't do birthday presents, and it's like, I 146 00:07:37,462 --> 00:07:40,261 Speaker 4: actually wanted a birthday. To be clear, I think his 147 00:07:40,381 --> 00:07:42,382 Speaker 4: wife and daughters would have liked. 148 00:07:42,262 --> 00:07:43,862 Speaker 2: To I love how we don't get caught up in 149 00:07:43,902 --> 00:07:45,582 Speaker 2: the patriarchy and stuff. 150 00:07:45,062 --> 00:07:49,302 Speaker 4: With this house exactly, and they're like, actually, we bitch 151 00:07:49,302 --> 00:07:51,982 Speaker 4: about your time. He had a few things to say 152 00:07:51,982 --> 00:07:54,821 Speaker 4: about toxic masculinity, and I agree with the sentiment that 153 00:07:54,862 --> 00:07:57,182 Speaker 4: women hold value whether they're in the workplace, where they're 154 00:07:57,182 --> 00:08:01,381 Speaker 4: at home, and that demonizing all forms of masculinity isn't helpful. 155 00:08:01,862 --> 00:08:05,382 Speaker 4: But sir, five minutes ago, you were attempting to amend 156 00:08:05,462 --> 00:08:09,302 Speaker 4: Queensland abortion laws, which the Royal Australian and New Zealand 157 00:08:09,302 --> 00:08:11,941 Speaker 4: College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists had to come out and 158 00:08:11,982 --> 00:08:14,822 Speaker 4: oppose because they said it would cause emotional trauma for 159 00:08:14,902 --> 00:08:16,302 Speaker 4: patients and healthcare providers. 160 00:08:16,742 --> 00:08:18,701 Speaker 1: So he ordered to bound abortion in Queensland. 161 00:08:18,742 --> 00:08:22,382 Speaker 4: He wanted to make some amendments that the expert said, 162 00:08:22,742 --> 00:08:25,142 Speaker 4: what you're going to do is traumatize women who have 163 00:08:25,422 --> 00:08:28,101 Speaker 4: babies that are like they're incompatible with life. 164 00:08:28,182 --> 00:08:29,542 Speaker 3: So he just was like, I want to make your 165 00:08:29,582 --> 00:08:30,102 Speaker 3: life harder. 166 00:08:30,622 --> 00:08:33,102 Speaker 2: He'd like it on the agenda. He would definitely like 167 00:08:33,142 --> 00:08:33,862 Speaker 2: it on the agenda. 168 00:08:34,022 --> 00:08:37,422 Speaker 4: MEA, were you disappointed that Kata didn't just bake you 169 00:08:37,462 --> 00:08:39,982 Speaker 4: a cake and give us an encouraging tap on the head. 170 00:08:40,262 --> 00:08:42,822 Speaker 1: No, I think it's always a good day to hear 171 00:08:43,542 --> 00:08:48,142 Speaker 1: from men like Bob Katter about what feminism should be. Sorry, 172 00:08:48,302 --> 00:08:52,742 Speaker 1: Robbie Catter, Bobby Robbie Robbie is Bob Okay, son of 173 00:08:52,782 --> 00:08:54,582 Speaker 1: the big Hat. I assume he also wears a. 174 00:08:54,582 --> 00:08:56,582 Speaker 2: Big cat does slightly smaller hat. 175 00:08:56,742 --> 00:08:59,102 Speaker 1: And because he has three daughters and a wife, he's 176 00:08:59,102 --> 00:09:03,062 Speaker 1: eminently qualified to speak. And I think International Women's Day 177 00:09:03,102 --> 00:09:05,902 Speaker 1: is the day that he should speak, because we need 178 00:09:05,942 --> 00:09:08,742 Speaker 1: to hear more from men like him who have daughters. 179 00:09:09,102 --> 00:09:11,382 Speaker 1: He also so behind them. 180 00:09:12,742 --> 00:09:13,462 Speaker 3: You can't see them. 181 00:09:13,502 --> 00:09:16,462 Speaker 4: They hit an He didn't say as well that International 182 00:09:16,502 --> 00:09:20,142 Speaker 4: Women's Day started off as a day to really celebrate 183 00:09:20,182 --> 00:09:22,942 Speaker 4: the strength of women. That's not what it started off as. 184 00:09:22,982 --> 00:09:25,382 Speaker 4: It's a day of protest. So he got that fact 185 00:09:25,422 --> 00:09:26,062 Speaker 4: wrong too. 186 00:09:25,942 --> 00:09:27,382 Speaker 1: About things like the gender pay gap. 187 00:09:27,702 --> 00:09:30,182 Speaker 3: Yeah, Holly, what did you make of our good friend Robbie. 188 00:09:30,382 --> 00:09:32,942 Speaker 2: Well, look, he is exhibiting the kind of confidence in 189 00:09:33,022 --> 00:09:36,862 Speaker 2: hubris that is not surprising and is apparently statistically typical 190 00:09:36,982 --> 00:09:38,982 Speaker 2: of the chaps at the moment, and I, rather than 191 00:09:39,022 --> 00:09:41,382 Speaker 2: criticize them for it, I think we should all take 192 00:09:41,422 --> 00:09:43,942 Speaker 2: a little dose of this. There was some statistics came 193 00:09:43,982 --> 00:09:46,462 Speaker 2: out last week and not that many people reported on 194 00:09:46,502 --> 00:09:52,182 Speaker 2: them because they were so expected. But every few years 195 00:09:52,542 --> 00:09:55,582 Speaker 2: this big report comes out. It's called the Household Income 196 00:09:55,622 --> 00:09:58,822 Speaker 2: and Labor Dynamics in Australia Report Hilda, which is a 197 00:09:58,942 --> 00:10:02,102 Speaker 2: very good name, a very good female name, and basically 198 00:10:02,182 --> 00:10:04,022 Speaker 2: it reports on the state of men and women in 199 00:10:04,022 --> 00:10:06,422 Speaker 2: lots of different areas of equality. And what it said 200 00:10:06,582 --> 00:10:10,622 Speaker 2: is that Australian men are not doing any more housework, 201 00:10:10,742 --> 00:10:14,782 Speaker 2: domestic chores or caregiving tasks. Actually, although that's changed a 202 00:10:14,782 --> 00:10:18,262 Speaker 2: little bit then they were twenty years ago, right, So 203 00:10:18,422 --> 00:10:23,302 Speaker 2: that shows a certain amount of stubbornness and commitment on 204 00:10:23,382 --> 00:10:26,302 Speaker 2: their part, I think to refusing to move. But what's 205 00:10:26,342 --> 00:10:29,582 Speaker 2: particularly charming is that most of them, however, think they're 206 00:10:29,582 --> 00:10:32,822 Speaker 2: doing a fair share. So math isn't really my strong suit. 207 00:10:33,222 --> 00:10:38,062 Speaker 2: But apparently women do at least twenty percent more household work. 208 00:10:38,102 --> 00:10:41,142 Speaker 2: They always have they continue to do so. But fifty 209 00:10:41,142 --> 00:10:44,262 Speaker 2: eight percent of men believe they do very much their 210 00:10:44,262 --> 00:10:47,662 Speaker 2: fair share, which reminded me of the way that men 211 00:10:47,742 --> 00:10:51,422 Speaker 2: behave And this is very stereotypical. Let's say heterosexual men 212 00:10:51,462 --> 00:10:55,942 Speaker 2: maybe in a traditional partnership, maybe when they are suddenly 213 00:10:56,022 --> 00:10:58,622 Speaker 2: required to do some like say you've got mates coming 214 00:10:58,702 --> 00:11:02,862 Speaker 2: round or people coming to stay, and they're like, i'll help, 215 00:11:03,542 --> 00:11:06,222 Speaker 2: and then they empty the fish tank. 216 00:11:06,302 --> 00:11:10,622 Speaker 4: Perhaps, yes, so I was thinking about these. Sometimes they're 217 00:11:10,662 --> 00:11:13,142 Speaker 4: put to work, like I see in my parents' dynamic. 218 00:11:13,822 --> 00:11:17,742 Speaker 4: My mum will say we're hosting family Christmas this week, 219 00:11:18,302 --> 00:11:20,782 Speaker 4: I need you to do some jobs, and dads like say, 220 00:11:20,822 --> 00:11:23,422 Speaker 4: no more, I'm on it. I'm a helpful guy. Whipp 221 00:11:23,422 --> 00:11:26,702 Speaker 4: a snipper out. Don't need the whipper snipper. Actually, we 222 00:11:26,742 --> 00:11:28,862 Speaker 4: need you to wipe the bench, That is the case. 223 00:11:28,902 --> 00:11:32,742 Speaker 4: And look, Luca is in terms of domestic labor. Like, 224 00:11:33,302 --> 00:11:36,342 Speaker 4: you know, he is the exception. I accept the stats, 225 00:11:36,382 --> 00:11:38,742 Speaker 4: but he does do a lot. But there is something 226 00:11:38,782 --> 00:11:42,742 Speaker 4: where men are wired differently when it comes to hosting, right, 227 00:11:43,262 --> 00:11:45,702 Speaker 4: Like when people are coming over, I think that I 228 00:11:45,782 --> 00:11:49,342 Speaker 4: instinctively know I should vacuum, the house should smell good. 229 00:11:49,422 --> 00:11:51,982 Speaker 4: Like there are just kind of a hierarchy of things. 230 00:11:52,582 --> 00:11:55,302 Speaker 4: That's when Luca will be like, I think it's time 231 00:11:55,302 --> 00:11:56,142 Speaker 4: to wage war on. 232 00:11:56,102 --> 00:11:58,742 Speaker 3: The ants, and it's like no, no, no, or reoil 233 00:11:58,782 --> 00:11:59,382 Speaker 3: the deck. 234 00:11:59,262 --> 00:12:01,502 Speaker 4: Reoil the deck. Oh the wood is rotting. I don't 235 00:12:01,542 --> 00:12:04,622 Speaker 4: give a shit, or like slug bait, I'm going to 236 00:12:04,702 --> 00:12:06,022 Speaker 4: clean the dog's water bowl. 237 00:12:06,222 --> 00:12:09,062 Speaker 3: No, they are not top one hundred tasks of what 238 00:12:09,062 --> 00:12:11,062 Speaker 3: we need to do right now. Yeah, I don't know. 239 00:12:11,502 --> 00:12:13,942 Speaker 1: I can't really get on board with this because I 240 00:12:14,062 --> 00:12:14,662 Speaker 1: do nothing. 241 00:12:15,222 --> 00:12:16,462 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're really the exception. 242 00:12:16,742 --> 00:12:18,942 Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you mean when you say you do nothing? 243 00:12:18,982 --> 00:12:21,502 Speaker 2: You mean ever? Or when people are coming round. 244 00:12:21,622 --> 00:12:24,742 Speaker 4: People are coming round? Both you've held, you've held Christmas before? 245 00:12:25,542 --> 00:12:27,542 Speaker 4: What do you do you spill something in preparation? 246 00:12:27,902 --> 00:12:30,381 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'll go and buy things. I'll go and 247 00:12:30,422 --> 00:12:32,622 Speaker 1: buy vessels to put things in. Like I'll go and 248 00:12:32,622 --> 00:12:35,262 Speaker 1: buy bins and Jason will be like, why are you 249 00:12:35,302 --> 00:12:38,142 Speaker 1: buying bins? I'm like, because I feel like we need them. 250 00:12:38,462 --> 00:12:39,862 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, that's your contribution. 251 00:12:39,942 --> 00:12:43,141 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think men often will. Again we're talking in 252 00:12:43,222 --> 00:12:47,302 Speaker 1: such stereotypes, but maybe look at the exterior of the house. 253 00:12:47,942 --> 00:12:51,382 Speaker 3: Perhaps they go outside, they wage war with the possums. 254 00:12:51,662 --> 00:12:53,782 Speaker 1: Yeah. I just think that there are some people who 255 00:12:53,782 --> 00:12:55,862 Speaker 1: are good entertainers, good hostesses I know we're going to 256 00:12:55,902 --> 00:12:59,102 Speaker 1: be talking about Megan in a minute, and some who aren't, 257 00:12:59,342 --> 00:13:02,582 Speaker 1: some who really think about the moments that their guests 258 00:13:02,662 --> 00:13:03,622 Speaker 1: need to experience. 259 00:13:04,182 --> 00:13:06,462 Speaker 2: I accept that to a point. But even if you 260 00:13:06,542 --> 00:13:10,102 Speaker 2: don't like hosting, there is a certain amount of hosting 261 00:13:10,142 --> 00:13:12,742 Speaker 2: that in every life must fall, right, Like, you're not 262 00:13:12,862 --> 00:13:16,102 Speaker 2: going to get away with never ever having family members 263 00:13:16,182 --> 00:13:18,982 Speaker 2: or people coming round. So I totally agree with you. 264 00:13:19,062 --> 00:13:20,622 Speaker 2: Some people love it and it's a way of them 265 00:13:20,622 --> 00:13:23,982 Speaker 2: expressing their love, and that's great, But there's also just 266 00:13:23,982 --> 00:13:27,222 Speaker 2: a certain amount of grudge hosting that has to oh yeah, 267 00:13:27,262 --> 00:13:31,022 Speaker 2: and so when that occurs, who does it? That's kind 268 00:13:31,062 --> 00:13:32,222 Speaker 2: of what this is about, right. 269 00:13:32,462 --> 00:13:35,982 Speaker 1: That's another argument that I have with my husband a lot, 270 00:13:36,102 --> 00:13:39,222 Speaker 1: because I feel that if they're close enough to come 271 00:13:39,302 --> 00:13:41,862 Speaker 1: to your house. You shouldn't really have to do anything. 272 00:13:42,302 --> 00:13:44,702 Speaker 1: I have people in and out of my house all 273 00:13:44,702 --> 00:13:46,462 Speaker 1: the time, and I'm like, do I need to clean up? 274 00:13:46,502 --> 00:13:49,022 Speaker 2: Not really in terms of being the change you need 275 00:13:49,102 --> 00:13:52,261 Speaker 2: to see in the world, we should normalize you come 276 00:13:52,302 --> 00:13:54,142 Speaker 2: to my house and it looks like it does on 277 00:13:54,182 --> 00:13:57,502 Speaker 2: a random Tuesday night. But we can't because we've so 278 00:13:57,742 --> 00:13:59,742 Speaker 2: internalized the idea. 279 00:13:59,582 --> 00:14:02,662 Speaker 4: Yes and maya your baseline of your house. And maybe 280 00:14:02,662 --> 00:14:05,262 Speaker 4: it's because your kids are older and stuff is pretty good, 281 00:14:05,342 --> 00:14:07,902 Speaker 4: right my mum growing up two sets of twins in 282 00:14:07,942 --> 00:14:11,462 Speaker 4: two and a half years house. You could see the 283 00:14:11,462 --> 00:14:13,502 Speaker 4: floor right, really really messy, and people are going to 284 00:14:13,582 --> 00:14:16,182 Speaker 4: drop in, and I remember my mum has spoken about 285 00:14:16,182 --> 00:14:19,302 Speaker 4: this moment and my mum is difficult to offend. But 286 00:14:19,622 --> 00:14:21,302 Speaker 4: I think someone dropped in. You know, people used to 287 00:14:21,302 --> 00:14:24,662 Speaker 4: do that, They used to drop in. And this friend 288 00:14:24,742 --> 00:14:26,742 Speaker 4: went and whispered to other friends about the state of 289 00:14:26,742 --> 00:14:28,982 Speaker 4: the house and how horrified she Oh my god. And 290 00:14:29,262 --> 00:14:31,782 Speaker 4: that will always fall on women. That is never like, 291 00:14:31,862 --> 00:14:36,102 Speaker 4: can you believe how Tony manages that house well? 292 00:14:36,102 --> 00:14:37,862 Speaker 1: Because men aren't judged by. 293 00:14:37,982 --> 00:14:41,142 Speaker 4: No that as a and as there were some great 294 00:14:41,222 --> 00:14:44,462 Speaker 4: videos going around over the weekend to mark International Women's Day, 295 00:14:44,502 --> 00:14:46,782 Speaker 4: and I just want to play you this clip by 296 00:14:46,822 --> 00:14:49,382 Speaker 4: one of my favorite comedians. Her name is Sarah Pasco, 297 00:14:49,542 --> 00:14:51,822 Speaker 4: and here's what she said about the gender divide. 298 00:14:52,022 --> 00:14:53,502 Speaker 3: Equality is a lie. 299 00:14:54,262 --> 00:14:58,342 Speaker 6: All there is is oh women, go on, have jobs, 300 00:14:58,942 --> 00:15:00,982 Speaker 6: go on, have careers if you want one, go on. 301 00:15:01,142 --> 00:15:02,742 Speaker 6: Be proud of yourself as long as when you come 302 00:15:02,742 --> 00:15:04,942 Speaker 6: home you very quickly do all of the housework like 303 00:15:05,022 --> 00:15:08,862 Speaker 6: it's your hobby. And if you're a straight man, now 304 00:15:08,982 --> 00:15:12,782 Speaker 6: shout in at in your head being no. Actually, I 305 00:15:12,782 --> 00:15:16,182 Speaker 6: put a ladder back in the shed on Saturday. I 306 00:15:16,302 --> 00:15:22,222 Speaker 6: cleaned the bath when she was crying on her birthday. 307 00:15:22,462 --> 00:15:24,862 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank. 308 00:15:24,662 --> 00:15:27,822 Speaker 6: You, you're one of the good ones. I'm actually not 309 00:15:27,862 --> 00:15:30,942 Speaker 6: attacking you. I'm not saying that men don't do anything 310 00:15:31,262 --> 00:15:33,422 Speaker 6: you do, but it's just that there is too much 311 00:15:33,502 --> 00:15:36,542 Speaker 6: to do and our input isn't parity. And I do 312 00:15:36,662 --> 00:15:40,142 Speaker 6: have proof men if they want to, I have so 313 00:15:40,262 --> 00:15:42,182 Speaker 6: much spare time about being dads that they can have 314 00:15:42,182 --> 00:15:43,502 Speaker 6: secret second families. 315 00:15:46,822 --> 00:15:48,982 Speaker 3: Just jump in the car half. 316 00:15:48,782 --> 00:15:51,382 Speaker 6: An hour down the road, another bit of dinner. 317 00:15:52,862 --> 00:15:53,702 Speaker 2: Night kids. 318 00:15:54,102 --> 00:15:56,702 Speaker 6: There is no woman who after twenty four hours of 319 00:15:56,822 --> 00:16:03,702 Speaker 6: drudgery and then I go to Chelmsford and I scrub 320 00:16:03,822 --> 00:16:04,902 Speaker 6: somebody else's kitchen. 321 00:16:08,142 --> 00:16:10,102 Speaker 4: I love that, And I thought that there were that 322 00:16:10,382 --> 00:16:12,182 Speaker 4: you referred to, Holly. There was a great line in 323 00:16:12,222 --> 00:16:15,582 Speaker 4: it that said, the report also shows men are more 324 00:16:15,622 --> 00:16:18,222 Speaker 4: satisfied than women with the division of the unpaid. 325 00:16:18,622 --> 00:16:21,102 Speaker 3: And I'm like, yeah, I bet, I bet they are going. 326 00:16:21,182 --> 00:16:22,822 Speaker 3: I think things are actually fine. 327 00:16:22,942 --> 00:16:26,982 Speaker 2: I've got an extra six hours a week. In a moment, 328 00:16:27,262 --> 00:16:30,182 Speaker 2: has Loved Meghan showed how the royal family made a 329 00:16:30,222 --> 00:16:37,382 Speaker 2: big mistake in letting their gold star princess go. Meg 330 00:16:37,462 --> 00:16:41,182 Speaker 2: Sussex is celebrating today. Her show with Love Meghan is 331 00:16:41,182 --> 00:16:44,382 Speaker 2: in Netflix's top ten worldwide and has officially been greenlit 332 00:16:44,462 --> 00:16:47,102 Speaker 2: for a second season, which has already been filmed. So 333 00:16:47,182 --> 00:16:49,102 Speaker 2: we don't imagine that was very much of a surprise 334 00:16:49,142 --> 00:16:52,782 Speaker 2: to Megs. But anyway, it's good if you like me. 335 00:16:53,142 --> 00:16:57,022 Speaker 2: Spent the weekend watching Meg's perfect manicure doing lovely things 336 00:16:57,062 --> 00:17:00,222 Speaker 2: to Lettice, You've been thinking a lot about this new 337 00:17:00,342 --> 00:17:03,422 Speaker 2: act of Duchess Meghan. She's on the cover of People, 338 00:17:03,502 --> 00:17:06,422 Speaker 2: she's on the Drew Barrymore Show, she's out of hiding, 339 00:17:06,821 --> 00:17:11,342 Speaker 2: and what's on full display her perfect credentials as a princess. 340 00:17:12,061 --> 00:17:14,701 Speaker 2: Now the story goes according to both the royal family 341 00:17:14,742 --> 00:17:17,061 Speaker 2: at the time and Harry in his book, which we 342 00:17:17,141 --> 00:17:19,262 Speaker 2: won't discuss the title of because we all know that 343 00:17:19,302 --> 00:17:22,701 Speaker 2: it's me or what is it Wow that when everything 344 00:17:22,742 --> 00:17:25,621 Speaker 2: went down and Harry and Meghan exited the royal family, 345 00:17:25,982 --> 00:17:28,461 Speaker 2: what the Sussexes wanted at the time and what they 346 00:17:28,581 --> 00:17:31,421 Speaker 2: tried to negotiate to get was a different model of 347 00:17:31,502 --> 00:17:34,101 Speaker 2: royal life, right. They wanted one where maybe they could 348 00:17:34,141 --> 00:17:37,262 Speaker 2: live overseas, be allowed to make their own money, and 349 00:17:37,341 --> 00:17:40,341 Speaker 2: do good for causes that they cared about on their terms. 350 00:17:40,821 --> 00:17:45,341 Speaker 2: And those negotiations famously failed. But actually it's exactly what's 351 00:17:45,422 --> 00:17:48,341 Speaker 2: ended up happening because Harry and Meghan are living their 352 00:17:48,462 --> 00:17:52,221 Speaker 2: royal light life. They live overseas, they make their own money, 353 00:17:52,462 --> 00:17:55,461 Speaker 2: and as last year's tours to Nigeria and Columbia showed, 354 00:17:55,502 --> 00:17:58,502 Speaker 2: as well as the Invictus Games and their Archroal Foundation projects, 355 00:17:58,782 --> 00:18:02,542 Speaker 2: they're doing royal esque charity and ambassadorship roles on their 356 00:18:02,581 --> 00:18:06,861 Speaker 2: own terms. But most of all, Meg proves herself, I 357 00:18:06,901 --> 00:18:10,901 Speaker 2: think through this show to be the perfect princess Mia. 358 00:18:11,022 --> 00:18:13,782 Speaker 2: Do you think that the proper royals are kicking themselves 359 00:18:13,821 --> 00:18:14,262 Speaker 2: this week. 360 00:18:15,262 --> 00:18:18,661 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do in a way, although obviously she I 361 00:18:18,661 --> 00:18:20,941 Speaker 1: mean she could have had this show as a royal. 362 00:18:21,061 --> 00:18:25,661 Speaker 1: She really could have, because well, everything that people complain 363 00:18:25,782 --> 00:18:30,461 Speaker 1: about about the show is what makes a royal woman 364 00:18:30,782 --> 00:18:34,462 Speaker 1: good at her job. She looks beautiful, she's very thin, 365 00:18:34,702 --> 00:18:40,902 Speaker 1: she's very perfect. She is utterly inoffensive, bordering on bland. 366 00:18:41,621 --> 00:18:46,902 Speaker 1: She's very careful to be inclusive, to not do anything controversial. 367 00:18:47,302 --> 00:18:50,142 Speaker 1: When she cooks Mexican food, she has a Mexican chef there. 368 00:18:50,182 --> 00:18:53,621 Speaker 1: When she cooks Korean food, she has a Korean chef there. 369 00:18:54,182 --> 00:18:58,181 Speaker 1: There's nothing sort of to grab hold of, and people 370 00:18:58,422 --> 00:19:01,462 Speaker 1: are acting as though that is a flaw, but it's 371 00:19:01,462 --> 00:19:05,022 Speaker 1: actually the feature. It's the feature of It was the 372 00:19:05,061 --> 00:19:08,942 Speaker 1: feature of Instagram influencers in you know, twenty fifteen or so, 373 00:19:09,101 --> 00:19:12,782 Speaker 1: before things became more extreme and they needed to find 374 00:19:12,821 --> 00:19:16,101 Speaker 1: more dramatic ways to get attention. And it was the 375 00:19:16,182 --> 00:19:18,421 Speaker 1: model for the Tig, which was her lifestyle blog that 376 00:19:18,502 --> 00:19:22,661 Speaker 1: she had back then. And it's essentially also what Kate 377 00:19:23,101 --> 00:19:26,102 Speaker 1: Middleton does, Like that's what she has to do as 378 00:19:26,101 --> 00:19:28,981 Speaker 1: a princess. You have to be ornamental, you have to 379 00:19:29,022 --> 00:19:32,942 Speaker 1: be decorative. You have to be kind and supportive and 380 00:19:32,982 --> 00:19:36,061 Speaker 1: caring of other people, or at least perform that, and 381 00:19:36,101 --> 00:19:37,581 Speaker 1: that's exactly what she's doing. 382 00:19:37,942 --> 00:19:40,061 Speaker 2: She's very good at it, and I agree with everything 383 00:19:40,061 --> 00:19:42,821 Speaker 2: you've said, But Kate could never make that show because 384 00:19:43,101 --> 00:19:45,341 Speaker 2: if you think about the criticism that's come for Megan 385 00:19:45,422 --> 00:19:50,182 Speaker 2: about unrelatability, the money, the time, all that stuff. If 386 00:19:50,222 --> 00:19:52,701 Speaker 2: that was a proper Royal, that would also come with 387 00:19:52,742 --> 00:19:56,502 Speaker 2: a side of we're paying for those flowers, We're paying 388 00:19:56,581 --> 00:19:59,941 Speaker 2: for that house. Obviously, the actual literal logistics of that 389 00:19:59,982 --> 00:20:04,621 Speaker 2: are complicated, but that's why royals have to look aspirationally 390 00:20:04,702 --> 00:20:10,741 Speaker 2: wealthy and glamorous, but not ostentatiously glamorous, because that is 391 00:20:10,782 --> 00:20:13,141 Speaker 2: a bit like, well, you're paying for those jewels, you 392 00:20:13,182 --> 00:20:16,381 Speaker 2: know what I mean. So Megan's got the freedom to 393 00:20:16,462 --> 00:20:18,742 Speaker 2: be able to show the lifestyle that she obviously really 394 00:20:18,821 --> 00:20:21,421 Speaker 2: likes and she obviously really wanted and certainly is on 395 00:20:21,621 --> 00:20:24,861 Speaker 2: par with what the Royals are living without that level 396 00:20:24,861 --> 00:20:28,262 Speaker 2: of criticism. But I think it's true. I think that 397 00:20:28,341 --> 00:20:31,901 Speaker 2: she is very skilled at the kind of royal show 398 00:20:32,101 --> 00:20:36,701 Speaker 2: just enough without saying too much, seem relatable, while also 399 00:20:36,942 --> 00:20:39,861 Speaker 2: never messy, say a lot of words without any of 400 00:20:39,901 --> 00:20:42,022 Speaker 2: them really saying any think that's what royals do. You're 401 00:20:42,061 --> 00:20:45,302 Speaker 2: so right, Mia, And it's like, in a way, I 402 00:20:45,341 --> 00:20:47,902 Speaker 2: think she would have been great at it in the family. 403 00:20:48,341 --> 00:20:55,942 Speaker 4: Yeah, but what undermines that royal performance is her biological 404 00:20:55,982 --> 00:20:58,461 Speaker 4: family and she has no control over this. I've done 405 00:20:58,462 --> 00:21:00,861 Speaker 4: a lot of soul searching between I think last week 406 00:21:01,022 --> 00:21:04,821 Speaker 4: and today. This show isn't for me, and that's totally fine. 407 00:21:04,861 --> 00:21:08,262 Speaker 4: But to sit down and create anything is a feat 408 00:21:08,462 --> 00:21:11,501 Speaker 4: and it's brave. And I think whenever Thomas Markle rears 409 00:21:11,542 --> 00:21:14,382 Speaker 4: his head, I go into a position of just feeling 410 00:21:14,901 --> 00:21:18,901 Speaker 4: such empathy for Meghan. And he has come out just 411 00:21:18,982 --> 00:21:21,661 Speaker 4: I think in the last day or so and said 412 00:21:21,861 --> 00:21:24,902 Speaker 4: that his mother would be turning in her grave at 413 00:21:24,942 --> 00:21:28,421 Speaker 4: Meghan's decision to change her name from Markel to Sussex. 414 00:21:28,462 --> 00:21:29,861 Speaker 1: Which is bizar thing to say. 415 00:21:29,942 --> 00:21:32,502 Speaker 4: It's a bizarre thing to say given that most women 416 00:21:32,702 --> 00:21:35,702 Speaker 4: still upon getting married do change their name. 417 00:21:35,782 --> 00:21:38,821 Speaker 1: He's really grasping, He is really graping to stay in 418 00:21:38,861 --> 00:21:39,462 Speaker 1: the conversation. 419 00:21:39,702 --> 00:21:41,621 Speaker 4: And it also made me look at Meghan in a 420 00:21:41,621 --> 00:21:43,821 Speaker 4: different way because I went, no, wonder she doesn't want 421 00:21:43,821 --> 00:21:45,581 Speaker 4: to be known as Meghan Markle like, I wonder if 422 00:21:45,581 --> 00:21:47,901 Speaker 4: there's an element of really wanting to separate herself, not 423 00:21:47,942 --> 00:21:51,982 Speaker 4: only from Thomas but from her brother, who every time 424 00:21:52,502 --> 00:21:56,782 Speaker 4: she takes a breath, they're asked by the male in 425 00:21:56,982 --> 00:22:00,021 Speaker 4: the UK if they'll comment. They both admitted to not 426 00:22:00,101 --> 00:22:03,422 Speaker 4: actually watching any of it, but Thomas Markle was like, well, 427 00:22:03,422 --> 00:22:05,742 Speaker 4: cooking shows are usually spontaneous and blah and. 428 00:22:06,222 --> 00:22:10,381 Speaker 1: Just it's grows how imbittered he is. I also watched 429 00:22:10,502 --> 00:22:13,021 Speaker 1: a lot more of it over the weekend, and our 430 00:22:13,061 --> 00:22:16,382 Speaker 1: own newsletter about how I was a bit sick over 431 00:22:16,381 --> 00:22:18,341 Speaker 1: the weekend and I couldn't really focus on anything, so 432 00:22:18,341 --> 00:22:20,662 Speaker 1: I just wanted that sort of background TV that would 433 00:22:20,742 --> 00:22:23,101 Speaker 1: wash over me. And it really did the trick. It 434 00:22:23,141 --> 00:22:26,581 Speaker 1: was almost quite soothing, and I came away The first 435 00:22:26,621 --> 00:22:29,501 Speaker 1: episode I found quite frustrating because I think we were 436 00:22:29,502 --> 00:22:32,381 Speaker 1: graining it on a curve that is not the same 437 00:22:32,422 --> 00:22:36,542 Speaker 1: as other lifestyle shows or other cooking shows or crafty shows. 438 00:22:37,302 --> 00:22:39,901 Speaker 1: I think we brought all the baggage of our opinions 439 00:22:39,942 --> 00:22:42,702 Speaker 1: about Megan and the money she was paid and everything 440 00:22:42,702 --> 00:22:46,022 Speaker 1: that's happened. But when I just kind of watched more 441 00:22:46,061 --> 00:22:50,061 Speaker 1: of it, it made me feel sorry for her in 442 00:22:50,101 --> 00:22:53,782 Speaker 1: the sense that she felt very timid, unsure of herself, 443 00:22:53,861 --> 00:22:58,782 Speaker 1: really needing validation and praise for everybody. All the people 444 00:22:58,821 --> 00:23:00,422 Speaker 1: that were in her house didn't seem to know her 445 00:23:00,581 --> 00:23:02,182 Speaker 1: very well or at all. Some of them had never 446 00:23:02,222 --> 00:23:05,302 Speaker 1: met her before, and she really needed their approval, and 447 00:23:05,341 --> 00:23:08,141 Speaker 1: she really needed them to say things like, you've always 448 00:23:08,182 --> 00:23:10,902 Speaker 1: been the hostess with the most and you've always nurtured 449 00:23:10,901 --> 00:23:13,981 Speaker 1: with food, and food is really a love language. It 450 00:23:14,061 --> 00:23:17,302 Speaker 1: was very saying the quiet part out loud. She was 451 00:23:17,341 --> 00:23:21,341 Speaker 1: doing a lot of trying to put forward this other 452 00:23:21,542 --> 00:23:24,982 Speaker 1: version of herself, which I understand. Since she became famous 453 00:23:25,022 --> 00:23:29,142 Speaker 1: by hooking up with Harry, the media has written her 454 00:23:29,182 --> 00:23:33,341 Speaker 1: story for her and her family have and then they 455 00:23:33,341 --> 00:23:36,821 Speaker 1: did that Netflix show where they had to be very 456 00:23:36,861 --> 00:23:41,061 Speaker 1: negative and angsty about their whole experience, which I understand 457 00:23:41,141 --> 00:23:43,022 Speaker 1: to be true from their point of view. But she's 458 00:23:43,061 --> 00:23:47,061 Speaker 1: never been able to just be kind of ordinary. 459 00:23:46,742 --> 00:23:49,141 Speaker 4: And there's an irony to and a lot of the 460 00:23:49,182 --> 00:23:52,341 Speaker 4: reviews are like Megan, it's desperate for us to like her. 461 00:23:52,542 --> 00:23:54,901 Speaker 4: It's like, imagine how traumatizing it would be to be 462 00:23:54,982 --> 00:23:57,982 Speaker 4: the most hated woman in the world for the very 463 00:23:58,302 --> 00:24:02,101 Speaker 4: worst crime she could maybe be guilty of is not 464 00:24:02,222 --> 00:24:07,542 Speaker 4: managing staff well Maybey. Yeah, being someone who some people 465 00:24:07,581 --> 00:24:09,222 Speaker 4: don't like, which is a. 466 00:24:09,222 --> 00:24:11,942 Speaker 1: Very also to say about a person of color. Yeah, 467 00:24:12,022 --> 00:24:14,302 Speaker 1: you know that they're uppity. That's very coded. 468 00:24:14,581 --> 00:24:15,462 Speaker 3: And in the same way. 469 00:24:15,542 --> 00:24:16,941 Speaker 4: I mean, I know a lot of people who have 470 00:24:17,061 --> 00:24:19,502 Speaker 4: watched it and they don't warm to Megan, right. They 471 00:24:19,861 --> 00:24:21,901 Speaker 4: they don't relate to it to whether it's a sense 472 00:24:21,901 --> 00:24:23,901 Speaker 4: of humor or her She doesn't. 473 00:24:23,661 --> 00:24:25,982 Speaker 1: Have a sense of humor. And it's all very perfect, 474 00:24:26,101 --> 00:24:28,502 Speaker 1: and that isn't how you connect, no matter how many 475 00:24:28,581 --> 00:24:31,382 Speaker 1: times she says, Oh, it doesn't have to be perfect, 476 00:24:31,422 --> 00:24:34,662 Speaker 1: and I'm just ordinary and has her bare feet. It's 477 00:24:34,821 --> 00:24:38,941 Speaker 1: so unrelatable that she's desperately wanting to be liked and 478 00:24:39,061 --> 00:24:41,462 Speaker 1: seen for who she is. But there's this massive barrier 479 00:24:41,861 --> 00:24:45,421 Speaker 1: because when you take a crew of eighty people to 480 00:24:45,621 --> 00:24:49,302 Speaker 1: make a show about how easy it is to make breakfast, 481 00:24:50,341 --> 00:24:51,581 Speaker 1: there's massive disconnect. 482 00:24:51,982 --> 00:24:54,461 Speaker 2: I don't know about that because I think again, she 483 00:24:54,581 --> 00:24:57,262 Speaker 2: is very deliberately made a show that isn't really about her, 484 00:24:57,462 --> 00:24:59,181 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It's supposed to be about 485 00:24:59,222 --> 00:25:02,382 Speaker 2: the things so Mike dms and everything and Instagram over 486 00:25:02,381 --> 00:25:04,821 Speaker 2: the weekend. We're just full of people sharing themselves, making 487 00:25:04,942 --> 00:25:07,222 Speaker 2: things that Megan's making, some of them badly, some of 488 00:25:07,262 --> 00:25:09,701 Speaker 2: them well. But people are into it. She's given us 489 00:25:09,742 --> 00:25:12,981 Speaker 2: other things to talk about other than just her. But 490 00:25:13,101 --> 00:25:15,542 Speaker 2: the other thing is I think, because I agree with 491 00:25:15,581 --> 00:25:17,302 Speaker 2: you Mia that while I was watching it, one of 492 00:25:17,302 --> 00:25:19,861 Speaker 2: the things I wrote down, especially that first time, is 493 00:25:19,861 --> 00:25:23,022 Speaker 2: why does she so desperate for everybody to like her 494 00:25:23,061 --> 00:25:25,462 Speaker 2: so much? And as you've just said, Jesse, I think 495 00:25:25,502 --> 00:25:27,981 Speaker 2: that definitely everybody hating you for however long would do 496 00:25:28,022 --> 00:25:30,821 Speaker 2: that to you. And this bumps into something that was 497 00:25:30,901 --> 00:25:32,941 Speaker 2: obviously always a problem with the Royals. 498 00:25:33,022 --> 00:25:33,182 Speaker 4: Right. 499 00:25:33,821 --> 00:25:35,782 Speaker 2: Megan is, and this has been said before, it's non 500 00:25:35,782 --> 00:25:38,381 Speaker 2: original thought, a creature of American aspiration. 501 00:25:38,581 --> 00:25:38,782 Speaker 3: Right. 502 00:25:38,861 --> 00:25:42,302 Speaker 2: She obviously gets an enormous amount of pleasure from the 503 00:25:42,302 --> 00:25:44,581 Speaker 2: fact that she now has a lovely life with lovely 504 00:25:44,621 --> 00:25:47,621 Speaker 2: stuff in it, and she gets to meet people who 505 00:25:47,702 --> 00:25:50,262 Speaker 2: are very high for lutin and interesting, and she gets 506 00:25:50,341 --> 00:25:53,141 Speaker 2: just In Trudeau's family to come over for summer and whatever, 507 00:25:53,182 --> 00:25:55,141 Speaker 2: and she's hanging out with it like she obviously likes 508 00:25:55,222 --> 00:25:58,621 Speaker 2: all that, And in America that is in no way shamed. 509 00:25:58,942 --> 00:26:03,861 Speaker 2: Being ambitious and socially ambitious I'm talking about too, is 510 00:26:03,942 --> 00:26:08,342 Speaker 2: not shamed in Britain, and particularly if you're royal. You're 511 00:26:08,422 --> 00:26:10,981 Speaker 2: born at the top, right, there's nowhere to aspire to, 512 00:26:11,422 --> 00:26:13,981 Speaker 2: which is why they're often very busy making their houses 513 00:26:14,022 --> 00:26:16,661 Speaker 2: look a bit crumbly, and they don't have all the 514 00:26:16,661 --> 00:26:19,581 Speaker 2: flushing toilets and they don't have all that stuff. I 515 00:26:19,621 --> 00:26:22,141 Speaker 2: think that's another reason why it was always going to 516 00:26:22,182 --> 00:26:26,381 Speaker 2: be hard for her, who's obviously a striver, obviously tries 517 00:26:26,502 --> 00:26:28,662 Speaker 2: very hard. Obviously she says it out loud a couple 518 00:26:28,702 --> 00:26:30,821 Speaker 2: of times. I love to get a gold star. I 519 00:26:30,861 --> 00:26:32,701 Speaker 2: love it when I get approvals and someone tells me 520 00:26:32,742 --> 00:26:36,181 Speaker 2: I've done a great job. That is very unroyal. And 521 00:26:36,222 --> 00:26:39,502 Speaker 2: so even though it makes her the perfect princess because she's, 522 00:26:39,821 --> 00:26:43,061 Speaker 2: you know, performing at this level all the time, that's 523 00:26:43,101 --> 00:26:45,222 Speaker 2: not what being a princess is supposed to be. It's 524 00:26:45,222 --> 00:26:47,341 Speaker 2: supposed to be effortless. 525 00:26:46,742 --> 00:26:48,621 Speaker 1: And also service to others. I think the thing that 526 00:26:48,702 --> 00:26:54,821 Speaker 1: rankles me most is this exhaustion with all these women, 527 00:26:54,821 --> 00:26:58,821 Speaker 1: whether it's Nara Smith who makes you know, rice bubbles 528 00:26:58,821 --> 00:27:01,942 Speaker 1: from scratch with a grain of rice when her children 529 00:27:01,982 --> 00:27:07,622 Speaker 1: want breakfast to Megan they're women who are performing the 530 00:27:07,702 --> 00:27:12,462 Speaker 1: act of leisure and domesticity, and yet they're being paid 531 00:27:12,502 --> 00:27:16,262 Speaker 1: for it, and there's a whole business behind what they're doing. 532 00:27:17,341 --> 00:27:18,302 Speaker 3: Constraints. 533 00:27:18,581 --> 00:27:23,022 Speaker 4: Yeah, the woman who is making her children breakfast does 534 00:27:23,101 --> 00:27:26,742 Speaker 4: so with fifty five constraints of the modern world on her. 535 00:27:26,982 --> 00:27:31,822 Speaker 2: Such time doesn't want to pop like rice bubbles from scratch, 536 00:27:31,821 --> 00:27:33,101 Speaker 2: as well as not being able. 537 00:27:32,901 --> 00:27:37,901 Speaker 1: To fetishizing the stuff that most women have to just 538 00:27:38,182 --> 00:27:41,581 Speaker 1: do every day. And yes, it would be lovely to 539 00:27:41,661 --> 00:27:44,502 Speaker 1: decant a packet of crackers and put them into a 540 00:27:44,542 --> 00:27:48,341 Speaker 1: lovely cellophane thing and make a calligraphy, but most of 541 00:27:48,381 --> 00:27:51,421 Speaker 1: us don't have a crew of eighty people and millions 542 00:27:51,422 --> 00:27:55,061 Speaker 1: of dollars from Netflix to make that happen. And the 543 00:27:55,141 --> 00:27:58,061 Speaker 1: disingenuine usiness from me is twofold. 544 00:27:58,141 --> 00:27:59,142 Speaker 3: First of all, it's. 545 00:27:58,982 --> 00:28:03,821 Speaker 1: The being a duchess and cosplaying royalty, but also trying 546 00:28:03,821 --> 00:28:06,702 Speaker 1: to come across as one of the people, and also 547 00:28:07,141 --> 00:28:12,142 Speaker 1: cose playing leisure and domesticity when it's hard work and 548 00:28:12,581 --> 00:28:14,661 Speaker 1: it takes a lot of money and a lot of time. 549 00:28:15,101 --> 00:28:17,981 Speaker 1: And this is something that women are taught to have 550 00:28:18,022 --> 00:28:21,702 Speaker 1: our value from our abilities as homemakers. And yet now 551 00:28:21,702 --> 00:28:24,142 Speaker 1: we're also expected to go out and work and earn 552 00:28:24,141 --> 00:28:25,941 Speaker 1: a living and often support our families. 553 00:28:26,101 --> 00:28:28,701 Speaker 2: But some women do love to aspire to that, like 554 00:28:28,782 --> 00:28:31,061 Speaker 2: not necessarily doing it all the time. But the three 555 00:28:31,101 --> 00:28:33,302 Speaker 2: of us have all obviously given ourselves away when talking 556 00:28:33,302 --> 00:28:37,581 Speaker 2: about hosting that it's not our jam literally, But you know, 557 00:28:37,702 --> 00:28:40,421 Speaker 2: I know plenty of people who get an enormous amount 558 00:28:40,462 --> 00:28:43,142 Speaker 2: of pleasure out of baking a beautiful cake. I don't 559 00:28:43,222 --> 00:28:46,782 Speaker 2: think that just because Megan, and she's not the only one. 560 00:28:46,782 --> 00:28:50,062 Speaker 2: There's a whole industry of this, of literally lifestyle content. 561 00:28:50,702 --> 00:28:52,862 Speaker 2: It's not all about us and making us feel bad, 562 00:28:52,942 --> 00:28:55,342 Speaker 2: and lots of women love plugging into it, so what's 563 00:28:55,382 --> 00:28:55,862 Speaker 2: wrong with that? 564 00:28:56,102 --> 00:28:58,582 Speaker 4: And on the other hand, I think that seeing through 565 00:28:58,622 --> 00:29:00,622 Speaker 4: the Thomas mirkl lens is that this is a woman 566 00:29:00,622 --> 00:29:04,142 Speaker 4: who is estranged from her father and her brother, who 567 00:29:04,182 --> 00:29:06,342 Speaker 4: is raising children with a man who lost his mother 568 00:29:06,422 --> 00:29:08,702 Speaker 4: very very young. And I just think that there's something 569 00:29:08,782 --> 00:29:12,902 Speaker 4: in trying to create a childhood that was either different 570 00:29:12,982 --> 00:29:15,862 Speaker 4: from your own or can be. You know, people who 571 00:29:15,942 --> 00:29:19,102 Speaker 4: who have a strange family members raising little children can 572 00:29:19,142 --> 00:29:21,462 Speaker 4: be really confronting because bring back a lot of memories. 573 00:29:21,542 --> 00:29:23,742 Speaker 4: And Harry grew up in a circus like I can 574 00:29:23,902 --> 00:29:28,382 Speaker 4: understand trying to make that a little bit more perfect. 575 00:29:28,022 --> 00:29:30,701 Speaker 1: And for her too, because she talks about growing up 576 00:29:30,702 --> 00:29:33,302 Speaker 1: as a latchkey kid. She had a single mum and. 577 00:29:33,182 --> 00:29:35,062 Speaker 3: Which Thomas Michael completely denies. 578 00:29:35,302 --> 00:29:37,902 Speaker 1: Yeah, but her parents were divorced and she lived either 579 00:29:37,942 --> 00:29:39,542 Speaker 1: with her dad or her mum. But she had a 580 00:29:39,582 --> 00:29:42,542 Speaker 1: single mum or a single dad, and her parents worked. 581 00:29:42,702 --> 00:29:47,662 Speaker 1: And so it's not the aspiration of it's not nice 582 00:29:47,661 --> 00:29:50,701 Speaker 1: to make a cake or make people feel welcome, or 583 00:29:50,702 --> 00:29:52,742 Speaker 1: do it little, you know, arrange some flowers. 584 00:29:53,142 --> 00:29:53,782 Speaker 3: It's not that. 585 00:29:53,942 --> 00:29:58,062 Speaker 1: It's the making it seem really easy and effortless and 586 00:29:58,502 --> 00:30:01,782 Speaker 1: hiding all the work and the effort and the money 587 00:30:01,822 --> 00:30:04,981 Speaker 1: and the time that it takes, as if anyone can 588 00:30:05,062 --> 00:30:06,782 Speaker 1: do it. We know that's not true. 589 00:30:07,582 --> 00:30:10,462 Speaker 2: We'd have some feedback for the Constitution. If you thought 590 00:30:10,542 --> 00:30:13,022 Speaker 2: we were having a federal election any minute now, You're 591 00:30:13,022 --> 00:30:16,742 Speaker 2: not alone. But ex cyclone Alfred paid to that this weekend, 592 00:30:16,822 --> 00:30:19,542 Speaker 2: as it should, and instead we're back in election limbo 593 00:30:20,062 --> 00:30:22,782 Speaker 2: and Instagram reel by Charlotte Mortlock, friend of the pod 594 00:30:22,982 --> 00:30:25,902 Speaker 2: and who's worked in politics for years, articulated why this 595 00:30:25,982 --> 00:30:27,981 Speaker 2: is a problem and what should happen to solve it, 596 00:30:28,062 --> 00:30:30,542 Speaker 2: and it's an opinion it has to be said that 597 00:30:30,661 --> 00:30:33,421 Speaker 2: shared by the Prime Minister sometimes Peter Dutton and plenty 598 00:30:33,422 --> 00:30:35,702 Speaker 2: of people in politics. They haven't made a reel about 599 00:30:35,702 --> 00:30:37,902 Speaker 2: it yet and they should because here's what Charlotte said. 600 00:30:38,302 --> 00:30:41,782 Speaker 5: The Prime Minister was set to call the election tomorrow 601 00:30:41,942 --> 00:30:45,502 Speaker 5: and that would mean an April twelve election that is 602 00:30:45,582 --> 00:30:48,261 Speaker 5: no longer happening and I have no critique of that. 603 00:30:48,262 --> 00:30:50,421 Speaker 5: The government needs to be focused on the emergency efforts 604 00:30:50,422 --> 00:30:53,542 Speaker 5: and the recovery efforts. However, it does mean that Australia 605 00:30:53,622 --> 00:30:57,502 Speaker 5: is going to be in this quasi campaign limbo for 606 00:30:57,661 --> 00:31:01,822 Speaker 5: yet another month because we have Easter Anzac Day, so 607 00:31:01,942 --> 00:31:04,382 Speaker 5: now we're not having the election tool may That means 608 00:31:04,422 --> 00:31:06,782 Speaker 5: we've been in kind of this campaign mode for around 609 00:31:06,822 --> 00:31:11,741 Speaker 5: six to eight months and very little effective democracy has 610 00:31:11,862 --> 00:31:16,102 Speaker 5: done in that time because everyone is hyper, you know, 611 00:31:16,222 --> 00:31:18,622 Speaker 5: part of the hyper focused on political point scoring. 612 00:31:18,702 --> 00:31:19,742 Speaker 3: That is just the reality. 613 00:31:20,782 --> 00:31:23,062 Speaker 5: We need to change to a four year term and 614 00:31:23,262 --> 00:31:26,142 Speaker 5: it needs to be a fixed term because you're also 615 00:31:26,342 --> 00:31:29,622 Speaker 5: trying to always gain the system, hold the election on 616 00:31:29,702 --> 00:31:32,661 Speaker 5: a date that suits you when you've got momentum for 617 00:31:32,702 --> 00:31:34,142 Speaker 5: your party, again, no critique. 618 00:31:34,142 --> 00:31:36,742 Speaker 3: That is a reality, but that's not always. 619 00:31:36,422 --> 00:31:38,902 Speaker 5: In the country's interests. And so I do think that 620 00:31:39,702 --> 00:31:42,622 Speaker 5: we really need to have a really good look at 621 00:31:42,622 --> 00:31:46,302 Speaker 5: our democracy and why we can't change that and why 622 00:31:46,342 --> 00:31:48,182 Speaker 5: it's taken us so long to get to that point. 623 00:31:48,222 --> 00:31:50,302 Speaker 5: And I don't think it was being controversial. I think 624 00:31:50,302 --> 00:31:53,662 Speaker 5: we make our politicians look a lot longer into the future, 625 00:31:53,782 --> 00:31:55,782 Speaker 5: or at least a little, which is only a good thing. 626 00:31:55,982 --> 00:31:58,221 Speaker 2: So for a bit of context for us to change, 627 00:31:58,302 --> 00:32:00,902 Speaker 2: Australia to change to a four year fixed term, which 628 00:32:00,942 --> 00:32:02,822 Speaker 2: is what America has, It's what Britain has, it's what 629 00:32:02,862 --> 00:32:03,662 Speaker 2: lots of places happen. 630 00:32:04,062 --> 00:32:06,582 Speaker 3: Does a fixed term mean they don't get to decide? 631 00:32:06,742 --> 00:32:09,102 Speaker 2: Yeah, so fixed term. What they're talking about there is 632 00:32:09,102 --> 00:32:11,622 Speaker 2: that you go right, so the election is always on 633 00:32:12,382 --> 00:32:16,302 Speaker 2: November get whatever, or it always has to be before 634 00:32:16,382 --> 00:32:18,982 Speaker 2: this date, and that instead of three year terms, which 635 00:32:19,022 --> 00:32:21,262 Speaker 2: is what Australia has, you have four year terms. Now 636 00:32:21,542 --> 00:32:23,661 Speaker 2: the US do that, the UK do that. Actually, our 637 00:32:23,702 --> 00:32:26,382 Speaker 2: states and territories also do it. Our state and territory 638 00:32:26,422 --> 00:32:29,102 Speaker 2: elections I've never noticed, to be honest, always fall at 639 00:32:29,102 --> 00:32:31,741 Speaker 2: the same time and a fixed term. But for this 640 00:32:31,862 --> 00:32:34,542 Speaker 2: to happen at a federal level, that has to be 641 00:32:34,582 --> 00:32:38,382 Speaker 2: a referendum because it would be changing the constitution. So 642 00:32:38,462 --> 00:32:40,502 Speaker 2: when I was saying before that the Prime Minister's voice 643 00:32:40,502 --> 00:32:43,221 Speaker 2: support and both sides of politics have voiced support for this. 644 00:32:43,342 --> 00:32:46,622 Speaker 2: Over time, there is not very much appetite for a 645 00:32:46,661 --> 00:32:49,542 Speaker 2: referendum because we know how they go. 646 00:32:50,661 --> 00:32:54,502 Speaker 1: After the break snaff and why it's all over your phone. 647 00:32:54,542 --> 00:32:56,342 Speaker 3: Wan unlimited out loud access. 648 00:32:56,582 --> 00:33:00,661 Speaker 4: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum 649 00:33:00,742 --> 00:33:03,742 Speaker 4: and Maya subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes 650 00:33:03,782 --> 00:33:06,262 Speaker 4: to get us in your ears five days a week, 651 00:33:06,382 --> 00:33:17,422 Speaker 4: and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers. 652 00:33:19,382 --> 00:33:23,062 Speaker 1: If you're wondering why being online seems so relentlessly exhausting 653 00:33:23,382 --> 00:33:27,942 Speaker 1: lately and why you're so often left with an anxiety, hangover, 654 00:33:28,062 --> 00:33:31,062 Speaker 1: or just a feeling of yuckiness as you scroll, it 655 00:33:31,142 --> 00:33:35,822 Speaker 1: could be because of snaff. The founder of BuzzFeed, Jonah 656 00:33:35,862 --> 00:33:39,462 Speaker 1: pretty recently wrote a think piece that explained the concept 657 00:33:39,462 --> 00:33:43,142 Speaker 1: of snaff and how it has come to dominate social media. 658 00:33:43,902 --> 00:33:46,701 Speaker 1: He says that social media has become overrun with snaff, 659 00:33:46,742 --> 00:33:51,342 Speaker 1: and snaff stands for s is for stakes, exaggerating the 660 00:33:51,382 --> 00:33:55,062 Speaker 1: stakes to make the content urgent and existential. N is 661 00:33:55,102 --> 00:33:59,702 Speaker 1: for novelty, manufacturing novelty, and spinning content as being this 662 00:33:59,742 --> 00:34:03,701 Speaker 1: has never happened before. A is for anger, manipulating people's 663 00:34:03,742 --> 00:34:07,582 Speaker 1: anger to drive engagement via outrage. R is for retention. 664 00:34:08,022 --> 00:34:12,661 Speaker 1: Retention hacks include like withholding info like wait till the end, 665 00:34:12,742 --> 00:34:16,182 Speaker 1: watch till the end, or clickbaiting. And F is for fear, 666 00:34:16,382 --> 00:34:19,142 Speaker 1: so really taking advantage of fear to make people focus 667 00:34:19,582 --> 00:34:22,781 Speaker 1: with urgency on the content. So he argues that the 668 00:34:22,822 --> 00:34:25,822 Speaker 1: social media overlords at Meta and TikTok don't care about 669 00:34:26,022 --> 00:34:29,462 Speaker 1: actual content. They care about keeping people addicted to scrolling 670 00:34:29,862 --> 00:34:32,741 Speaker 1: so that they can monetize our eyeballs for longer. I 671 00:34:32,781 --> 00:34:35,462 Speaker 1: think we all by this stage know that to be true. 672 00:34:35,622 --> 00:34:38,861 Speaker 1: And the result of that is this proliferation of a 673 00:34:38,902 --> 00:34:43,982 Speaker 1: particular type of content that the algorithm rewards aka snaff. 674 00:34:44,822 --> 00:34:47,261 Speaker 1: So it means that the type of content that gets 675 00:34:47,261 --> 00:34:49,902 Speaker 1: created and recommended isn't the best content, but the content 676 00:34:49,942 --> 00:34:52,902 Speaker 1: that elicits the most compulsive and predictable response from the 677 00:34:52,982 --> 00:34:55,981 Speaker 1: human brain. Is this ringing a little bit true for you, Jesson? 678 00:34:56,062 --> 00:35:02,062 Speaker 4: My goodness, it explains literally everything from publishers to politicians, 679 00:35:02,181 --> 00:35:05,342 Speaker 4: to individual commentators. 680 00:35:04,701 --> 00:35:06,102 Speaker 1: Influencers TV shows. 681 00:35:06,181 --> 00:35:08,302 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think I saw it over the weekend. 682 00:35:08,942 --> 00:35:12,502 Speaker 4: Sometimes there are attempts at snaff. There's a story that 683 00:35:12,582 --> 00:35:15,421 Speaker 4: people are like, this is rich with potential snaff. Let's 684 00:35:15,422 --> 00:35:16,062 Speaker 4: try and find it. 685 00:35:16,142 --> 00:35:17,062 Speaker 1: What's the snaff angle? 686 00:35:17,181 --> 00:35:18,341 Speaker 3: Where's the snaff in this? 687 00:35:18,982 --> 00:35:21,701 Speaker 4: And I was watching it unfold over the weekend with 688 00:35:22,142 --> 00:35:25,781 Speaker 4: the another Simple Favor premiere because it's Blake Lively, right, 689 00:35:25,822 --> 00:35:27,422 Speaker 4: and the Blake Lively She's got it. 690 00:35:27,701 --> 00:35:29,262 Speaker 3: It's a second movie sequel. 691 00:35:29,382 --> 00:35:31,822 Speaker 4: It's a sequel with the it was the Anna Kendrick 692 00:35:31,862 --> 00:35:35,582 Speaker 4: movie and Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni was sort of 693 00:35:35,622 --> 00:35:39,462 Speaker 4: the ultimate snaff story. There was enormous novelty. The stakes 694 00:35:39,462 --> 00:35:42,301 Speaker 4: were so high. Either a woman was sexually assaulted or 695 00:35:42,342 --> 00:35:46,062 Speaker 4: she lied about it, which you know was anger fear, 696 00:35:46,462 --> 00:35:49,701 Speaker 4: and the retention was the receipts. It was like it 697 00:35:49,741 --> 00:35:52,662 Speaker 4: was perfect because you could do a fifteen minute TikTok 698 00:35:52,741 --> 00:35:56,181 Speaker 4: video on it with all the information and people were 699 00:35:56,261 --> 00:35:59,301 Speaker 4: just stuck to it. And so I saw attempts to 700 00:35:59,382 --> 00:36:02,382 Speaker 4: kind of find the snaff in this story over the weekend, 701 00:36:02,462 --> 00:36:04,942 Speaker 4: and there was a headline that I read this morning. 702 00:36:04,982 --> 00:36:09,142 Speaker 4: That was like Anna Kendrick's three word reply to a 703 00:36:09,221 --> 00:36:12,622 Speaker 4: quest about working with Blake Lively. And here's what she 704 00:36:12,661 --> 00:36:14,221 Speaker 4: actually said, What. 705 00:36:14,181 --> 00:36:20,622 Speaker 3: Does it mean to be working with Blake again? Does 706 00:36:20,701 --> 00:36:22,542 Speaker 3: that it? To be clear? All she said was oh, 707 00:36:22,582 --> 00:36:24,901 Speaker 3: you know, and then it feels like she got interrupted. Yeah, 708 00:36:25,022 --> 00:36:26,462 Speaker 3: like that was the entire story. 709 00:36:26,582 --> 00:36:29,741 Speaker 4: So if you feel as though you go onto the 710 00:36:29,781 --> 00:36:35,381 Speaker 4: internet and everything feels existential, everything feels like life or death, 711 00:36:36,062 --> 00:36:40,222 Speaker 4: that the biggest commentators in Australia right now look as though, 712 00:36:40,661 --> 00:36:42,901 Speaker 4: I'm going to be completely honest about how I feel 713 00:36:42,902 --> 00:36:45,381 Speaker 4: about it. Look as though they are unwell because they 714 00:36:45,422 --> 00:36:48,622 Speaker 4: are stuck in this cycle. 715 00:36:48,622 --> 00:36:51,221 Speaker 1: Of everything's in emergency and. 716 00:36:51,221 --> 00:36:54,181 Speaker 4: Almost like mania of just you see them get on, 717 00:36:54,942 --> 00:36:57,781 Speaker 4: they're breathless. I don't actually think that's put on. I 718 00:36:57,822 --> 00:37:01,221 Speaker 4: think that you become so invested in the algorithm and 719 00:37:01,261 --> 00:37:04,102 Speaker 4: the reward. We're like mice with little every time we 720 00:37:04,142 --> 00:37:06,262 Speaker 4: press a button, we get a reward, and we're addicted 721 00:37:06,302 --> 00:37:10,341 Speaker 4: to this drug. And you see people radical themselves in 722 00:37:10,382 --> 00:37:13,381 Speaker 4: their ideas because they get like almost taken away by 723 00:37:13,422 --> 00:37:15,382 Speaker 4: the scale of the thing they're talking about. 724 00:37:15,622 --> 00:37:19,582 Speaker 2: Also, this is because all content is so examined now, 725 00:37:19,622 --> 00:37:21,582 Speaker 2: So to pull the curtain back a little bit, like 726 00:37:21,661 --> 00:37:24,262 Speaker 2: ever since I've worked at digital media, we know everything 727 00:37:24,302 --> 00:37:26,741 Speaker 2: about why people click on things, right, We've known that 728 00:37:26,781 --> 00:37:28,661 Speaker 2: for a very long time, and so in the old 729 00:37:28,701 --> 00:37:30,661 Speaker 2: days we used to call it clickbait, very similar to 730 00:37:30,701 --> 00:37:34,622 Speaker 2: snaff really like, make it seem really dramatic, hold back 731 00:37:34,701 --> 00:37:37,382 Speaker 2: something of novelty, make sure there's a reason to retain 732 00:37:37,462 --> 00:37:39,861 Speaker 2: them by clicking. You know all of those things, right, 733 00:37:40,302 --> 00:37:44,701 Speaker 2: And so we are all hyper data driven, and the 734 00:37:44,741 --> 00:37:48,421 Speaker 2: people who are constantly snaffing, I'm just trying to find 735 00:37:48,422 --> 00:37:49,942 Speaker 2: different ways to use the word because I love it 736 00:37:49,942 --> 00:37:53,982 Speaker 2: so much. Constantly snaffing on the Internet, obviously are doing 737 00:37:53,982 --> 00:37:57,262 Speaker 2: it for monetary reasons, engagement reasons, validation reasons. 738 00:37:57,302 --> 00:37:58,342 Speaker 1: Attention reasons. 739 00:37:58,382 --> 00:38:00,422 Speaker 3: Literally there's a job, yeah. 740 00:38:00,342 --> 00:38:02,982 Speaker 2: Because they know it works. So you'll notice that with 741 00:38:03,062 --> 00:38:05,301 Speaker 2: any of the socials you follow, including ours, there'll be 742 00:38:05,302 --> 00:38:07,102 Speaker 2: a while where the headlines look like this, and then 743 00:38:07,142 --> 00:38:08,901 Speaker 2: they'll change and now they'll look like that, and then 744 00:38:08,942 --> 00:38:10,582 Speaker 2: there'll be a time when the pictures look like this, 745 00:38:10,661 --> 00:38:14,582 Speaker 2: and then they look like that. Isn't this just playing 746 00:38:14,701 --> 00:38:17,502 Speaker 2: people where they are? You know what I mean? Like 747 00:38:17,542 --> 00:38:18,941 Speaker 2: if it didn't work, we wouldn't. 748 00:38:18,622 --> 00:38:21,821 Speaker 1: Do it well in a way, yes, because in order 749 00:38:21,862 --> 00:38:23,821 Speaker 1: to stay relevant and get views so that they can 750 00:38:23,862 --> 00:38:27,062 Speaker 1: make money, creators a force to make snaff content or 751 00:38:27,142 --> 00:38:30,462 Speaker 1: at least market the content that they make from a 752 00:38:30,502 --> 00:38:34,821 Speaker 1: snaff point of view. And what Jonah Pardi argues in 753 00:38:34,862 --> 00:38:38,381 Speaker 1: this piece is that snaff content is reshaping politics and 754 00:38:38,422 --> 00:38:42,661 Speaker 1: culture and society, and it's often producing hateful and misleading 755 00:38:43,142 --> 00:38:46,261 Speaker 1: or really destructive content. Because the one word that isn't 756 00:38:46,261 --> 00:38:48,421 Speaker 1: in there that I think ends should be more more 757 00:38:48,462 --> 00:38:52,542 Speaker 1: than for novelty. It should be for negativity because feel good, 758 00:38:52,661 --> 00:38:57,701 Speaker 1: positive content does not elicit that fight or flight or 759 00:38:57,781 --> 00:38:59,421 Speaker 1: fury response in you. 760 00:38:59,502 --> 00:39:01,301 Speaker 4: Right, I've had to I think we've probably all had 761 00:39:01,302 --> 00:39:03,902 Speaker 4: this as an editor. You have people come in or 762 00:39:03,942 --> 00:39:06,542 Speaker 4: even brands and they say, why don't we do some 763 00:39:06,582 --> 00:39:09,261 Speaker 4: good news And I've had to say, no, one gives 764 00:39:09,261 --> 00:39:11,022 Speaker 4: a shit about good news. 765 00:39:11,022 --> 00:39:13,542 Speaker 3: And so it doesn't feel like an emergency exactly right. 766 00:39:13,622 --> 00:39:16,701 Speaker 4: It doesn't kind of inspire any feeling in you. And 767 00:39:16,741 --> 00:39:18,741 Speaker 4: we've all played this game. I've had to play this 768 00:39:18,862 --> 00:39:22,821 Speaker 4: game and have felt myself do it online. There was 769 00:39:22,822 --> 00:39:25,582 Speaker 4: a great quote in this article about how the internet 770 00:39:25,661 --> 00:39:29,102 Speaker 4: used to serve beer and wine at a communal dinner party, 771 00:39:29,221 --> 00:39:32,861 Speaker 4: and now there's fentanyl and crack, and to try and 772 00:39:33,022 --> 00:39:35,942 Speaker 4: make people pay for wine when they can get crack 773 00:39:36,022 --> 00:39:38,142 Speaker 4: for free is very difficult. 774 00:39:38,221 --> 00:39:40,582 Speaker 1: The whole Internet is running on crack and fentanyl. 775 00:39:40,781 --> 00:39:43,062 Speaker 4: Yes, But I did think, as I agorithm as I 776 00:39:43,142 --> 00:39:47,341 Speaker 4: was reading this, I'm someone who probably turns towards criticism 777 00:39:47,502 --> 00:39:52,861 Speaker 4: of institutions, that monopoly that the tech industries have over 778 00:39:52,942 --> 00:39:55,062 Speaker 4: algorithms and all of that. I agree that this is 779 00:39:55,102 --> 00:40:00,902 Speaker 4: an algorithmic issue. I do think that individuals and publishers 780 00:40:01,022 --> 00:40:03,542 Speaker 4: need to take some responsibility, which is what BuzzFeed is doing. 781 00:40:03,701 --> 00:40:06,941 Speaker 4: But I think it's a cop out to go, well, 782 00:40:06,982 --> 00:40:10,741 Speaker 4: I'm just playing the algorithm. As someone who exists as 783 00:40:10,822 --> 00:40:12,622 Speaker 4: a person on the Internet and as a person in 784 00:40:12,622 --> 00:40:16,821 Speaker 4: the media, I have felt myself get sucked into the 785 00:40:16,942 --> 00:40:21,022 Speaker 4: vortex of snuff and I have felt myself have to 786 00:40:21,181 --> 00:40:23,622 Speaker 4: literally sit down and go what are your values? 787 00:40:24,342 --> 00:40:25,622 Speaker 3: What are your boundaries? 788 00:40:25,822 --> 00:40:28,502 Speaker 4: On the internet? What do you want to do? If 789 00:40:28,542 --> 00:40:31,062 Speaker 4: you are chasing an algorithm, you're going to end up 790 00:40:31,062 --> 00:40:33,381 Speaker 4: as a person you don't like. Because often you'll see 791 00:40:33,382 --> 00:40:36,142 Speaker 4: a piece of content and it might be funny, and 792 00:40:36,302 --> 00:40:39,381 Speaker 4: it's got novelty, and it's gone absolutely viral, and you go, 793 00:40:39,862 --> 00:40:45,022 Speaker 4: that is ultimately hateful. You've just spurted hate into the world. 794 00:40:45,582 --> 00:40:48,062 Speaker 4: You've not made the world better or anyone's day better. 795 00:40:48,902 --> 00:40:52,781 Speaker 4: And to resist that as someone who creates content is 796 00:40:53,022 --> 00:40:53,742 Speaker 4: really hard. 797 00:40:54,382 --> 00:40:56,622 Speaker 1: I think that's why a lot of us are looking. 798 00:40:56,822 --> 00:40:58,781 Speaker 1: A lot of content creators are looking to have a 799 00:40:58,781 --> 00:41:04,022 Speaker 1: smaller audience because the way to ride the algorithm is 800 00:41:04,062 --> 00:41:07,181 Speaker 1: with snuff. And in terms of it changing culture, you 801 00:41:07,221 --> 00:41:09,422 Speaker 1: can see it in so many ways. So in politics, 802 00:41:09,542 --> 00:41:13,142 Speaker 1: the obvious example is Trump. Trump is the ultimate snaff 803 00:41:13,181 --> 00:41:18,542 Speaker 1: political candidate versus someone like Joe Biden had his own issues. 804 00:41:18,542 --> 00:41:22,462 Speaker 1: But Kamala Harris is just like was fairly neutral. She 805 00:41:22,582 --> 00:41:24,941 Speaker 1: wasn't going to get the same amount of attention. Look 806 00:41:24,982 --> 00:41:28,181 Speaker 1: at in TV shows The Bachelor, there was not that 807 00:41:28,342 --> 00:41:31,822 Speaker 1: high stakes drama and it faded away only to re 808 00:41:31,822 --> 00:41:36,622 Speaker 1: replaced by maths, which is constant snaff, constant drama, outrage, scandal, 809 00:41:37,142 --> 00:41:39,901 Speaker 1: high stakes. So that's how you can see that it's 810 00:41:40,062 --> 00:41:40,942 Speaker 1: shaping the culture. 811 00:41:41,181 --> 00:41:44,062 Speaker 2: I think people are wise to snaff and have been 812 00:41:44,062 --> 00:41:45,542 Speaker 2: for a while, even if they didn't know what it 813 00:41:45,582 --> 00:41:47,582 Speaker 2: was called. Because if you look at news refusal. We've 814 00:41:47,622 --> 00:41:49,982 Speaker 2: talked about that a lot, people turning away from news. 815 00:41:50,382 --> 00:41:52,901 Speaker 2: I promise that it's only like two more days. I'm 816 00:41:52,902 --> 00:41:57,102 Speaker 2: allowed to resference Megan and everything. If a TV show 817 00:41:57,181 --> 00:42:00,062 Speaker 2: is a legitimate hit, it is for this reason in 818 00:42:00,102 --> 00:42:02,861 Speaker 2: lots of ways, well in two different ways. Partly it's 819 00:42:02,862 --> 00:42:05,102 Speaker 2: snaff bait because the people who hater will watch it 820 00:42:05,142 --> 00:42:08,261 Speaker 2: and go back. But the actual show itself, as you've 821 00:42:08,261 --> 00:42:12,102 Speaker 2: already said today, Maya is so inoffensive and pleasant. And 822 00:42:12,181 --> 00:42:16,022 Speaker 2: I know that I'm often looking for, particularly in audio, 823 00:42:16,142 --> 00:42:19,902 Speaker 2: like books or podcasts or things when I've been swimming 824 00:42:19,902 --> 00:42:23,382 Speaker 2: in the news cycle for days that do the opposite 825 00:42:23,622 --> 00:42:27,341 Speaker 2: and that will suit me enhich me, make me think 826 00:42:27,342 --> 00:42:29,502 Speaker 2: about things in a different way, but also just soothe 827 00:42:29,542 --> 00:42:31,821 Speaker 2: me and not freak me out. And I think that 828 00:42:32,781 --> 00:42:34,741 Speaker 2: we definitely have gotten wise to it. 829 00:42:34,982 --> 00:42:36,941 Speaker 4: I think it's taken over news. There was a great 830 00:42:36,942 --> 00:42:39,701 Speaker 4: example in that story about the LA fires. How you 831 00:42:39,701 --> 00:42:42,062 Speaker 4: can get a week into a news event, no none 832 00:42:42,102 --> 00:42:46,781 Speaker 4: of the facts, but know the debates about DEI you've 833 00:42:46,781 --> 00:42:48,582 Speaker 4: seen fake images you to. 834 00:42:48,582 --> 00:42:50,661 Speaker 2: Be mad about today yelling it out us. 835 00:42:51,102 --> 00:42:55,582 Speaker 4: We even said it last week with cyclone Alfred when 836 00:42:55,582 --> 00:42:58,542 Speaker 4: we were talking about that, it was a bizarre moment 837 00:42:58,582 --> 00:43:01,062 Speaker 4: because there was nobody to be angry at. Like the 838 00:43:01,102 --> 00:43:05,221 Speaker 4: news cycle relies on going, who can we yell at? 839 00:43:05,261 --> 00:43:06,501 Speaker 4: Because that's a story that. 840 00:43:06,462 --> 00:43:09,022 Speaker 1: The beginning of COVID was like that. Remember when no 841 00:43:09,062 --> 00:43:10,821 Speaker 1: one had an one to be angry at and it 842 00:43:10,942 --> 00:43:12,982 Speaker 1: was just felt strange and people were singing opera on 843 00:43:13,022 --> 00:43:16,822 Speaker 1: their balconies and sharing Kumbaya memes and then we're snaffed. 844 00:43:16,942 --> 00:43:18,502 Speaker 1: Then it got snaffed. 845 00:43:19,302 --> 00:43:21,942 Speaker 3: We devolved into snuff. Our hands got sticky. 846 00:43:21,542 --> 00:43:22,102 Speaker 5: With the snuff. 847 00:43:22,582 --> 00:43:24,942 Speaker 2: That's all we've got time for today. Friends, A massive 848 00:43:25,022 --> 00:43:27,341 Speaker 2: thank you to all of you out louders for listening 849 00:43:27,342 --> 00:43:29,662 Speaker 2: to today's show and to our fabulous team for putting 850 00:43:29,661 --> 00:43:31,542 Speaker 2: it together. As always, we're going to be back in 851 00:43:31,582 --> 00:43:32,422 Speaker 2: your ears tomorrow. 852 00:43:32,822 --> 00:43:34,622 Speaker 3: Goodbye bye. 853 00:43:35,462 --> 00:43:38,741 Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma Maya subscribers listening. If you 854 00:43:38,902 --> 00:43:41,222 Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well, 855 00:43:41,462 --> 00:43:43,861 Speaker 1: subscribing to mom and Maya is the very best way 856 00:43:43,862 --> 00:43:45,902 Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode 857 00:43:45,982 --> 00:43:46,382 Speaker 1: description