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Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Pure Harvest.

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Speaker 2: My concern was that so many of the intelligent, capable

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Speaker 2: women I knew attributed their achievements holy to luck. We

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Speaker 2: are socialized as women to play down our achievements. We

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Speaker 2: feel that we will be more likable, particularly in the workplace,

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Speaker 2: if we make ourselves small. You don't have to spend

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Speaker 2: your life thinking is this tough enough for me to

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Speaker 2: feel this bad or sad? And if what you're going

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Speaker 2: through is hard for you today, it is hard for

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Speaker 2: you today. No one else gets to tell you that

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Speaker 2: it isn't now that I knew fear, I also knew

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Speaker 2: it was not permanent. As powerful as it was, its

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Speaker 2: grip on me would loosen, it would pass.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the C's the Ya Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives They adore,

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Speaker 1: the good, bad and ugly, best and worst days will

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Speaker 1: bear all the facets of seizing your yea. I'm Sarah

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Speaker 1: Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned funentrepreneur

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Speaker 1: who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha

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Speaker 1: Maiden and matcha Milk Bar. Sez the Ya is a

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Speaker 1: series of conversations on finding a life you love and

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Speaker 1: exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to December, beautiful people. If you haven't given yourself

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Speaker 1: a little pat on the bag for making it through

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Speaker 1: this year, absolutely do it now. You deserve it. These

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Speaker 1: Spotify wrapped lists have been coming out again and you

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Speaker 1: guys have blown me away like you did last year.

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Speaker 1: I cannot believe how many minutes some of you have

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Speaker 1: let me be in your ears for again. It is

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Speaker 1: such a joy and a privilege to create this show,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't do it without your support, so thank you,

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Speaker 1: so so much. It's been a hell of a year

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Speaker 1: for us all, and something I've reflected on a lot

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Speaker 1: over the past few months is resilience. And who better

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Speaker 1: to join us to explore that further than the wonderful

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Speaker 1: Jamilla Risbe, who not only embodies the concept herself, but

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Speaker 1: has just published Untold Resilience, a collection of nineteen or

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Speaker 1: inspiring stories of resilient women and the lessons they have

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Speaker 1: for us in navigating this crazy time. It says something

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Speaker 1: about Jamilla, though, that my favorite of the stories is hers,

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Speaker 1: one that has so many facets. I was actually nervous

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Speaker 1: at this episode, just wanting to make sure that I

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Speaker 1: did her justice. You may know Jamilla as an author, presenter,

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Speaker 1: and political commentator, or editor at large of Future Women

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Speaker 1: and former editor in chief at Mamma Mia. But she's

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Speaker 1: also a mother, modern feminist, a new cook, and Harry

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Speaker 1: potterlover who juggles it all while managing chronic illness and

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Speaker 1: multiple brain surgeries over the past few years. She is

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Speaker 1: endearingly witty, articulate, painfully intelligent, honest and humble, taking us

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Speaker 1: through her health journey, the work we still need to

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Speaker 1: do on supporting women returning to work after having a child,

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Speaker 1: her changing relationship to success and happiness, and so much more.

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Speaker 1: I hope you are as inspired by her as I am.

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Speaker 1: Lovely Jamilla, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: I am so delighted to have you here. It's so

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Speaker 1: nice to catch up. It's been so long. I've actually

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Speaker 1: been a little nervous about this one because I just

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Speaker 1: I just want to do you justice. You know, I

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Speaker 1: was reminded when I was doing my research for this one,

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Speaker 1: and I've just finished your wonderful new book, Untold Resilience,

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Speaker 1: what an extraordinary human you are, and how many wonderful

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Speaker 1: things you're doing. You're one of the few people out

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Speaker 1: there who like to have as many balls in the

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Speaker 1: air at once as I do. There's just so many balls.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's necessarily true. I think I just

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Speaker 2: get bored very easily.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's just a healthy sign of a curious mind.

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Speaker 1: So before we kick off, I love to start by

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Speaker 1: asking guests what the most down to earth thing is

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Speaker 1: about them, And particularly for people like yourself, who many

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Speaker 1: of us will have heard of in the media or

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Speaker 1: know of you through your many incredibly impressive titles, there

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Speaker 1: can end up being a bit of a glossy surface

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Speaker 1: to your identity, and I like to strip that back

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Speaker 1: because I think where we're relatable is where we're impactful.

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Speaker 1: So what would you say, is something really relatable about you?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Like everything? I spend most of my life in

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Speaker 2: bed because I have chronic illnesses and disabilities, which means

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Speaker 2: a lot of the time when I look like I'm

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Speaker 2: presenting for work or I am recording a podcast, and

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Speaker 2: it all feels very glamorous and important, I am probably

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Speaker 2: in bed. I'm in bed right now. I spend a

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Speaker 2: vast amount of my time when not in bed, playing

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Speaker 2: Boltron with my son, which boring game in the world.

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Speaker 2: And if we're not playing Boltron, we're playing Star Wars,

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Speaker 2: in which I have been cast as Chewbacca after refusing

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Speaker 2: to play Princess Lea.

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Speaker 1: Wow, why Chewbacca of all characters? Can you do the noises?

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Speaker 2: I'm not very good at them, but I'm working on it.

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Speaker 2: It was more, I think initially it was me trying

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Speaker 2: to push back against my kid, being like, you have

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Speaker 2: to be the girl character, so I was kind of

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Speaker 2: trying to force him to be more open minded about

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Speaker 2: who gets to play what, And then suddenly I got

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Speaker 2: stuck with anyway.

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Speaker 1: And this is something already that just jumped out at

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Speaker 1: me about you that you do seem like you're doing

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Speaker 1: so many different things and living such a busy and

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Speaker 1: full life, but you're also managing on the side a

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Speaker 1: chronic illness and things that get in the way of

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Speaker 1: you actually being able to go at the pace at

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Speaker 1: which you would otherwise like to go. And I found

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Speaker 1: quite similar, having had chronic fatigue and quite crupling anxiety

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Speaker 1: at times. While it's not the same as what you've experienced,

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Speaker 1: I think it does still make some people who might

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Speaker 1: be experiencing similar think that they can't live a life

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Speaker 1: as full or as exciting as you and I might have.

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Speaker 1: But people find balance, so you can still learn to

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Speaker 1: manage yourself and these things don't have to hold you

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Speaker 1: back from living a really wonderful life. And I think

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Speaker 1: you are a really amazing example of that for so

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Speaker 1: many people.

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Speaker 2: Oh thank you. I think it's just about making amendments

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Speaker 2: and recognizing it might not be the life that you

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Speaker 2: wanted it to be, and it might not be the

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Speaker 2: life that looks like the life that you see people

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Speaker 2: leading on television or Instagram. But you can make joy

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Speaker 2: within the gaps between the periods where you feel bad,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes you can even make joy within the periods

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Speaker 2: where you feel bad. I think I've just had to

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Speaker 2: I've had to find ways to live flexibly since becoming

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Speaker 2: a sick person and just acknowledge that the way I

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Speaker 2: used to do things doesn't work anymore, but it doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean I can't still do the things that I love doing.

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Speaker 1: That was a perfect sound by it for this entire

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Speaker 1: show finding joy in the in between bits, because you know,

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Speaker 1: we won't ever live a life without some form of adversity,

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Speaker 1: and that was what I loved so much about reading

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Speaker 1: your new book, Untold Resilience. Things will never be one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent smooth. They never have been, but that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean in any way that you can't find joy in between.

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Speaker 1: And speaking of small things that bring joy, I also

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Speaker 1: feel like we're kindred spirits for many other reasons, not

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Speaker 1: least because your bio involves a Harry Potter description that

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Speaker 1: blew my mind. And I also read that part of

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Speaker 1: the whole, you know, humbling experience of finding out you

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Speaker 1: have limits makes it quite discerning about what you will

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Speaker 1: and won't do. And I read that you have very

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Speaker 1: clean but not folded loads of washing, which I found

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Speaker 1: very interesting, interesting distinction, So tell us about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very good at putting loads of washing on,

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Speaker 2: I'm very good at getting them hung out, and then

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Speaker 2: folding is just a beyond me somehow. But this year,

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Speaker 2: during the pandemic, you know, we are really privileged people,

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Speaker 2: and we my husband and I organized to I have

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Speaker 2: a wonderful group of cleaners help us out now and then,

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Speaker 2: but during the pandemic they went out of their house.

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Speaker 2: Obviously because of that. I suddenly felt the kind of

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Speaker 2: the administrative load at home really shifting back to traditional

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Speaker 2: gender roles, which is I think what a lot of

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Speaker 2: women experienced during this pandemic, particularly women who are in

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Speaker 2: relationships with men. And I was like, now, it's not happening.

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Speaker 2: And I kept trying to argue it out with my

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Speaker 2: husband and it wasn't quite working. And we have that

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Speaker 2: gap where he goes, I don't see it, I don't

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Speaker 2: notice that it's bad. So I just retired from washing

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Speaker 2: one really big task and just went, yeah, I don't

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Speaker 2: do that anymore. It was a painful month the year

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Speaker 2: that I retired, but since then, I'm really into it.

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Speaker 1: I love this so much because I get that as well.

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Speaker 1: Nick is so wonderful at you know, fixing things around

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Speaker 1: the house and all that kind of stuff, but he

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Speaker 1: doesn't see the inside things, and it just so happens

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Speaker 1: that I enjoy the inside things. And then he reversed,

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Speaker 1: like college me about being better at the inside things,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want, you know, I don't want them

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Speaker 1: to do that. But then at the same time, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: but I enjoy the cleaning, and I want to do

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Speaker 1: more of the cleanings, you know.

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Speaker 2: I think where we're socialized from when we're kids. I

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Speaker 2: think as women that we are partly judged and our

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Speaker 2: self worth is linked to having a beautiful, clean, tidy home.

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Speaker 2: And often with that stuff. You know, yeah, we're better

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Speaker 2: at it. Of course, we're better at it because being

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Speaker 2: socialized to do it, and the expectations are higher on

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Speaker 2: women to do that kind of stuff in the same

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Speaker 2: way I think they're higher on men to be good

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Speaker 2: at like that kind of outdoorsy construction, you take care

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Speaker 2: of the house sort of stuff. And for me, that's

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Speaker 2: fine if that's how you want to arrange what you

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Speaker 2: do at home. But I'm a big fan of pushing

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Speaker 2: back against what society tells me I should be doing

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Speaker 2: and my husband should be doing, and finding what we're

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Speaker 2: actually good at, what we actually enjoy, and recognizing that

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Speaker 2: there are some jobs that nobody enjoys. Nobody enjoys cleaning

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Speaker 2: a bathroom. I refuse to accept it. If you tell

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Speaker 2: me that you would joy cleaning the bathroom, nor one

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Speaker 2: likes cleaning a toilet, right, maybe you need to accept it,

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Speaker 2: but you don't take it on because of a gender

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Speaker 2: role and listeners.

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Speaker 1: This is just a small preview of why Jamilla has

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Speaker 1: become such an incredibly impactful voice for young women. You're

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Speaker 1: just so eloquent at articulating your unique brand of feminism

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Speaker 1: in such a way that really helps change people's way

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Speaker 1: of thinking that they don't really take the time to

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Speaker 1: evaluate otherwise. And that's not just in feminism. I think

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Speaker 1: this year in general has done that for a lot

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Speaker 1: of us, interrupting those things that we are we are

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Speaker 1: conditioned to think that do come out of habit rather

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Speaker 1: than choice, and we got on this autopilot circuit of

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Speaker 1: accepting certain norms. And it's been a really wonderful opportunity

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Speaker 1: to stop and break those cycles and think about the

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Speaker 1: way we think about things. And you do such a

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Speaker 1: wonderful job with future women and your many other projects

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Speaker 1: in helping all of us do that in our lives.

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Speaker 1: But one thing I think is particularly in this day

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Speaker 1: and age where anything is possible, it can become very

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Speaker 1: overwhelming and the pressure on ourselves to wake up and

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Speaker 1: make the most of what we have now and find

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Speaker 1: our passion and live that dream all the time is enormous,

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Speaker 1: and people forget when they meet you that there have

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Speaker 1: been so many chapters that came before the one that

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Speaker 1: we walked in on now, where you had no idea

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Speaker 1: where you were going or how to best express yourself

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Speaker 1: or best direct to your talent. So how did you

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Speaker 1: find the union between what you love and what you're

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Speaker 1: good at. Take us back to very young Jamilla and

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Speaker 1: what your first ideas were of who you thought you

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Speaker 1: wanted to be.

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Speaker 2: I was an extremely enthusiastic child, like almost excessively enthusiastic.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to do everything. I wanted to be in everything,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to be involved in whatever was going,

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Speaker 2: whether or not I was good at it or bad

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Speaker 2: at it. I'm also extremely competitive and always have been

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Speaker 2: been something that's been part of me since I was

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Speaker 2: a little kid. And if you're enthusiastic and competitive, the

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Speaker 2: combination of the two means that you're always doing too

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Speaker 2: much stuff.

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Speaker 1: We are the same person. This is like talking to myself.

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Speaker 2: I graduated year twelve, like I could have graduated twice.

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Speaker 2: I had so many units because I just I wanted

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Speaker 2: to do stuff like I didn't want to miss Model

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Speaker 2: un or Rock of Stanford, or the athletics Carnival or

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Speaker 2: being on the netball team. I just wanted to do

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Speaker 2: all of the things. And I think that stayed with me,

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Speaker 2: both of those things, the competitiveness and the enthusiasm. As

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Speaker 2: a kid, I was a lot less sure of myself,

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Speaker 2: and I think I had much lower self esteem in

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Speaker 2: some ways, not in norways, but I was probably less

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Speaker 2: confident and less cocky. But I just loved being able

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Speaker 2: to throw myself into something. As a kid, I always

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Speaker 2: wanted to be an actress, and then when I was

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Speaker 2: a teenager, I wanted to be a director because I

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Speaker 2: realized it was very good at acting. I think that's

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Speaker 2: kind of code when you're a kid, for lacking to

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Speaker 2: be the center of attention.

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Speaker 1: Right, Oh my gosh, I am so similar to you.

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Speaker 1: I've always loved all the things, whether or not I'm

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Speaker 1: good at them. That's been my barrier to me, whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: Just explore, let's do all the adventures. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's a wonderful way to explore who you are during

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Speaker 1: your childhood. And you know, actually investigate all your interests

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Speaker 1: in the different sides of your personality. But it also

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Speaker 1: makes it exponentially more difficult to make a decision when

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Speaker 1: you have to choose a pathway and subjects and a degree,

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Speaker 1: and you know, what's the pathway that allows me to

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Speaker 1: do all the arts and all the drama and all

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Speaker 1: the nerdy stuff and the politics, and what's going to

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Speaker 1: unite all those different interests. So it doesn't surprise me

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Speaker 1: in the least that you chose common law at UNI.

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Speaker 1: I did arts law, probably for very similar reasons that

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Speaker 1: whole You know, I don't know what I want to do.

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Speaker 1: I love doing everything. I'm interested in so many different things.

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Speaker 1: What's going to leave the most doors open for me?

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Speaker 1: What did you go into that degree thinking? Was that

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Speaker 1: the idea? And what was your kind of big plan?

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Speaker 2: I did have a plan. None of the plan came

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Speaker 2: to fruition. I really could Adnieder and do their directing course,

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Speaker 2: but you can't do that course straight out of school.

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Speaker 2: So I was just feeling time, if I'm honest, and

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Speaker 2: I think, like a whole lot of kids, I did

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Speaker 2: law because I got in and there was that kind

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Speaker 2: of expectation of if you've got the marks, you had

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Speaker 2: to use them. You didn't want to have any of

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Speaker 2: your marks left over, which is just godlyse But I

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Speaker 2: did law because I wanted to get in and I

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Speaker 2: originally started out in economics law and made some changes

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Speaker 2: when parts of the economics course were dropped at the ANU,

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Speaker 2: and so I had to switch things up and they

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Speaker 2: discontinued some courses. But I loved economics at school, and

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Speaker 2: economics was very related to politics, and my dad had

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Speaker 2: done economics and accounting at UNI, and I think I

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Speaker 2: had a sense that that was a good backup, that

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Speaker 2: was a good sensible decision. But I absolutely went to

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Speaker 2: UNI planning that I would totally change direction in a

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Speaker 2: few years and I would head off and do a

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Speaker 2: directing course, And that very quickly just completely disappeared from

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Speaker 2: my vision. It became something that i'd loved at school

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Speaker 2: but never really touched again.

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Speaker 1: That reminds me of that quote about how things often

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Speaker 1: don't work out as planned, but most of the time

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Speaker 1: they work out better. And another way that we're so

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Speaker 1: similar is I had that same sort of performing arts beginning.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be a ballerina. I was with the

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Speaker 1: Australian Ballet and then ended up only finishing school because

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Speaker 1: I had to have a backup in case, you know,

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Speaker 1: I broke my foot or whatever. That's what I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do. And then I got the good marks. I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to have anything left over, and then got

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Speaker 1: swept up in the whole corporate world and that was it.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I love looking at your journey now and

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Speaker 1: seeing that. After that then came, you know, the directing,

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Speaker 1: but then politics soon became a very big thing once

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Speaker 1: you did start UNI and you were the youngest, one

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Speaker 1: of the youngest people ever to work as a chief

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Speaker 1: of staff to a federal minister. But then you've since

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Speaker 1: ended up in the media, which that's already been three

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Speaker 1: huge jump in lots of different buckets and industries in

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Speaker 1: such a short time. When did the shift away from

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Speaker 1: that big directing dream to a completely different industry happen?

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Speaker 1: How does that change in mindset shift for you? And

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Speaker 1: you know, how did you find your way into politics?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I was interested in drama and television

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Speaker 2: and acting in the stage because it was telling stories

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Speaker 2: and all the rest. And you know, a lot of

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Speaker 2: people say politics is essentially television for ugly people. So

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Speaker 2: I think it's a little bit that I don't think

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Speaker 2: the departure was as big as it seems, if that

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Speaker 2: makes sense. So I just got swept up at UNI

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Speaker 2: the same way I did at school in doing all

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Speaker 2: sorts of stuff. And one of the things I became

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Speaker 2: completely caught up in at university with student politics. I

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Speaker 2: was president of my student union and I took that

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Speaker 2: job really seriously. It's a full time job. You have

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Speaker 2: to live on campus, and you spend a lot of

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Speaker 2: time working out of the offices there. You have a team,

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Speaker 2: you have adult staff who you know aren't students, who

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Speaker 2: are you know that is their job, who were working

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Speaker 2: for you, and so it just completely encompasses your whole life.

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Speaker 2: And that was the case for me. And at the

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Speaker 2: end of that year, I think I felt like I

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Speaker 2: just couldn't go back to UNI, like I couldn't just

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Speaker 2: even though I hadn't finished my degrees. I didn't feel

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Speaker 2: like I could just go back to being a full

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Speaker 2: time student after having this experience, which was essentially working

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Speaker 2: full time and working at a really high level because

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Speaker 2: you get such access to the vice chancellor and the

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Speaker 2: university administration. When you have those kinds of roles, so

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Speaker 2: it's an extraordinary experience. And so I ended up working

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Speaker 2: in Kevin Rudd's media office. He was Prime Minister at

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Speaker 2: the time, and I was, you know, the most junior

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Speaker 2: burger of junior burgers. And I think from a personal

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Speaker 2: growth and an outlook perspective, that was really good for

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Speaker 2: me because I went from being kind of the top

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Speaker 2: of the tree, if that makes sense, to the very

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Speaker 2: very bottom. And I needed that, I think I was

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Speaker 2: otherwise I would have come out of UNI just being

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Speaker 2: completely insufferable. Kevin's office was good kind of taught me

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Speaker 2: all the things I didn't know, and I had that

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Speaker 2: realization very quickly, I think in that first week of

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Speaker 2: the extraordinary amount that I didn't understand it didn't know

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Speaker 2: about politics, and you know, I spent months and months

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Speaker 2: and months doing work that was boring and repetitive, but

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Speaker 2: I got to be around the most unbelievable decision making

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Speaker 2: and the most powerful decision making. I was never involved

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Speaker 2: in it, but I got to be there and I

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Speaker 2: got to watch others, and I think that experience has

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Speaker 2: been really useful grounding for me because I got a

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Speaker 2: sense of how different people's minds worked, how they approached

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Speaker 2: different problems, how different people managed both well and very poorly.

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Speaker 2: And I learned about the difference between politics and policy

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Speaker 2: and the importance of the politics to get you what

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Speaker 2: you want when it came to policy outcomes. So by

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Speaker 2: the time I went into Kate Ellis's office and she

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Speaker 2: was a minister in that government, I had a better

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Speaker 2: grasp on what politics was and who I wanted to be,

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Speaker 2: and the kind of boss I wanted to be and

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Speaker 2: the kind of contributor I wanted to be. And I

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Speaker 2: loved working in Kate's office. Like I just it was

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Speaker 2: a really magical period in my life where I had

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Speaker 2: for a lot of it. I didn't have a partner,

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Speaker 2: I had no children, I had no pets. I lived

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Speaker 2: in a house with other political staffers, so we all

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Speaker 2: lived exactly the same life. I remember checking my statements

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Speaker 2: from the Parliamentary office that does flights and stuff and

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Speaker 2: realizing one year I did two hundred and twenty seven

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Speaker 2: flats in one year. Like I just wasn't on the ground.

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Speaker 2: I just lived this mad life that I now go

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Speaker 2: There is never a there will never be a point

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Speaker 2: where I can do that again. But it kind of

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Speaker 2: twenty three, twenty four to twenty five, I could. And

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Speaker 2: that's a rare, rare window where you can just throw

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Speaker 2: everything at a job because it wasn't about money. It

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Speaker 2: was about believing in that government, believing first in the

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Speaker 2: rud government and then in the Gillard government and being

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Speaker 2: so invested in what we were trying to do.

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Speaker 1: I loved reading about your time as Julia Gillard because

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Speaker 1: I was like, otherwise, I think you would have been

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Speaker 1: the first to female prime minister of this country. And

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Speaker 1: I still believe that could happen.

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Speaker 2: It's ridiculous but very lovely.

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Speaker 1: But I also found it fascinating reading that you've mentioned

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Speaker 1: Kate's job as Minister for Women as a dream job

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Speaker 1: for you. So it was interesting that you moved out

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Speaker 1: of politics even though you thought that after having reached

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Speaker 1: such a high level so early in your career. And

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Speaker 1: those shifts are, you know, they're big quantum shifts, like

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Speaker 1: media and politics are very interrelated, but the nature of

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Speaker 1: the job has changed dramatically from being you know, in

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Speaker 1: the balls of politics to Mamma Mia. And I think

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Speaker 1: people do really get scared away from quantum leaps like

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Speaker 1: that in their life because of all the expectation that

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Speaker 1: comes with certain jobs using your intellect in certain ways,

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Speaker 1: and particularly in camera where you're absolutely surrounded by it.

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Speaker 1: You know, I totally understand that I was about to

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Speaker 1: do an associate ship with Chief Justice Keethful at the

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Speaker 1: High Court in camera, and to leave that to go

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Speaker 1: into a match of green tea business was like they

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Speaker 1: were just so different, and people all around me found

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Speaker 1: that really jarring. So how did you make that decision?

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Speaker 1: How did you go from junior burger to rising to

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Speaker 1: the top and then be willing to go back to

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Speaker 1: being a beginner again in a totally new industry.

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Speaker 2: I think I felt like I would always return, certainly

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Speaker 2: at that point. I don't necessarily feel like that anymore.

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Speaker 2: But I felt like politics had given me this amazing

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Speaker 2: opportunities early in life, but that I'd never done anything else.

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Speaker 2: And I was really conscious of the people who go

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Speaker 2: from being staff members of politicians to being politicians and

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Speaker 2: that's all they ever do their whole life. And I

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Speaker 2: believe that the best politicians are those who have lived

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Speaker 2: a life outside of politics and have done different things

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Speaker 2: and experience different industries and have that broader perspective before

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Speaker 2: they go into politics. So I kind of went, I've

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Speaker 2: got to get out of here and go do something else.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And I knew that Gilla government was going to lose.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know it was going to be the Red

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Speaker 2: government again before we lost, and I was conscious there

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Speaker 2: were going to be a thousand odds staffers with the

436
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 2: same skill set as me, all unemployed at the same time.

437
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: And I didn't want to be in that fight. And

438
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: so I started thinking about doing something else, what my

439
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 2: skill set was and where I was best placed. And

440
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 2: I honestly have the broadest sense of sort of media

441
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 2: communications being what I felt like I was strongest at.

442
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 2: I wanted something where I was writing. And then Lisa

443
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 2: Wilkinson tweeted the job at Mama Mea and she tweeted

444
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 2: that phrase from the Devil wez Prata that this is

445
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: the job a thousand girls would die for, and I

446
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: was like, Oh, what's the job?

447
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 1: That sounds like a competition?

448
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: I like it and how to go? I met me

449
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: A Friedman at the time, and I didn't want her

450
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 2: to feel uncomfortable if she saw my resume and went, oh,

451
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 2: she's so not right. But how do I tell her? So?

452
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: Trying to call her ahead of submitting the application, just

453
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 2: to be like there were no hard feelings, Like, clearly,

454
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 2: I have zero experience being a journalist. I have no

455
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 2: idea about blogs or writing or anything in tech, like

456
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: I've got nothing, so please don't be offended. And she

457
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: kept dodging my phone calls because she thought I was

458
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: trying to pitch a story from government and she didn't

459
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 2: want to up with worrying political stories. So finally I

460
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 2: just submitted it and she called about ten minutes later

461
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: and she was like, I had no idea, this is

462
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 2: why you were inning me. So I think it was

463
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: a good lesson in serendipity. But also I'm someone who

464
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 2: can get very in my head and if someone's not

465
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 2: returning my phone calls, I.

466
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: Will I'll read into that shit.

467
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: And I read negative into that. I never read positive

468
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: into that.

469
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: Oh she must hate me, she doesn't want to talk

470
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: to me.

471
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 2: So I think for me that was a really good

472
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: lesson in not reading the negative into the situation and

473
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: just giving it a crack anyway, and really recognizing that

474
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 2: when you go for a job outside your skill set

475
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: and it doesn't come off, it just doesn't matter, and

476
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: we will say that. Of course it matters at the time,

477
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 2: it hurts at the time. But when you take a

478
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,239
Speaker 2: successful person's resume, they don't have the jobs they went

479
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 2: for that they didn't get. That doesn't go on there,

480
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: that doesn't become part of your story. The job you

481
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 2: applied for and you missed out on. The one that

482
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: becomes part of your story is the one that you

483
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 2: do end up getting. And I'm sure I remember a

484
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 2: couple of them that I would have applied for a

485
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 2: bunch of jobs around that point that were quite right,

486
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 2: or I didn't get the callback, or whatever it might be,

487
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 2: and it's all right because I kind of remember them now.

488
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: I think we definitely overestimate the significance of certain things

489
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: in our life. But there's also a big lesson in

490
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: that for women in particular, who do get very crippled

491
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: by self doubt. If you don't ask, it's a no.

492
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: You're guaranteed you're not going to be able to get

493
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: an opportunity if you don't apply for it. But if

494
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: you throw something out there, there's such a bigger chance

495
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: that you might change your life. And you give someone

496
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: else the chance to take a punt on you, and

497
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: you know obviously that's what happened to Mama Mia. You've

498
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: since gone on to totally transform your own life, but

499
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: also that whole business. And I think the other thing

500
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: as well that's amazing about your story is that a

501
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: lot of people need a circuit breaker to get off

502
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: what I call the productivity hamster wheel, where we're very

503
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: gratified by productivity and what's objectively successful. And I think

504
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: it often takes a bit of a health breakdown or

505
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: a trauma or something to shock people into asking am

506
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: I doing the right things for the right reasons? Am

507
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: I excluding every other life path because I'm just on

508
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: autopilot or I'm blinded by gratitude or whatever it might be.

509
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: I love that you looked ahead and preempted, and we're

510
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: very pragmatic about loving politics, but being able to still

511
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: see that stepping out of that was worthy, rather than,

512
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: you know, being forced out of it and then figuring

513
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: it out along the way.

514
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 2: I think I've always been quite a planned person, and

515
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,360
Speaker 2: I like to have a safety net. Like I'm someone

516
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: who will take risks at work, but I like to

517
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,959
Speaker 2: have a safety net at the same time. And I

518
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: found I thought getting out of politics at that point

519
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 2: was a safe and sensible decision, and I think if

520
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 2: the government it hadn't been on the nose, I probably

521
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: would have stuck with it. I probably wouldn't have gone.

522
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: I don't think I so much got off the hamster

523
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: wheel as just switched hamster wheels down a new hamster

524
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: wheel and kept running. And what you said is so true,

525
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 2: and I admire those people, but I don't think I'm

526
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: one of them, because, to be honest, it took it

527
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 2: took having a baby and coming back to work after

528
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: having him and having a horrible time for me to

529
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 2: realize I needed to get off. And so I think

530
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: I did end up with that, with that jarring sort

531
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: of event, because I was running as fast at Mamma

532
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: Mia as I was in politics. I wasn't traveling as much,

533
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 2: but I was still doing the extraordinary hours and the

534
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: sixteen hour days and working on the weekends. And I

535
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: look back on that period and I just think, oh,

536
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: like my second date with my husband, his entire memories

537
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: of me being on the phone the whole time, Oh

538
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: my god, I.

539
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: Would have Babe, you were obviously worth it, so dog

540
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: go through that process was absolutely transformed under your leadership.

541
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: You were promoted quickly and unsurprisingly had a huge impact,

542
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: became editor and editor in chief, wrote a book in

543
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: the process. Not just lucky. I mean, you've just done

544
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: so many things and we're still only at the very

545
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: early chapters. Tell us about having a child, becoming a mom,

546
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: losing your confidence in that return to work, and I

547
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: think women, you know, he mentioned self doubt imposter syndrome.

548
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 1: That's one of the major themes that comes up in

549
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 1: every single episode post motherhood. I can only imagine it's

550
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: a whole new kettle of fish. How has that played

551
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: out in how things have turned out since then?

552
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I got pregnant accidentally. It was a very

553
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: pleasant surprise, but it was certainly not something we were

554
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: planning for years, like it was well into the future.

555
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: So I was pregnant when we got married, and I

556
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: remember preparing for the birth. I think I focused more

557
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: on preparing the workplace to be without me than I

558
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: did on preparing to have a baby, which in retrospect

559
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 2: was a bit naive. I was so focused on leaving

560
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: mom and mea and the team and the structures in

561
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 2: place to manage really well without me, that you know,

562
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: I worked up until the jue date or the day

563
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 2: before the ju date. And then I'm a very organized person,

564
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: so I went into labor fifteen minutes into my due

565
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: date and had the baby just before the end of

566
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 2: my due date. So did all of it in the

567
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 2: twenty four hours I was supposed to that baby. I

568
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 2: fell in love with that baby. And I'm not saying

569
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: there weren't hard bits. That were horrifically hard bits. There

570
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: was a point in those first ten days when my

571
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: husband got home from work and I said I'd ruined

572
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: my life. And I didn't say it, I yelled it.

573
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: So there were definitely some really tough bits for me,

574
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: especially finding my sense of self, I think as a parent,

575
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: because I'd always got my sense of self and my

576
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: sustenance from work, and suddenly I wasn't working, and I

577
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: was kind of like, well, who am I if I'm

578
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: not the editor in chief at mom and mea like,

579
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: I'm this person at home trying to keep personallive. And

580
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: what they don't tell you about those early months and

581
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: motherhood is you don't get a lot back, Like newborn

582
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: doesn't give you much. It's not like a six month

583
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: old or a twelve month old or a four year

584
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: old or a six year old who can talk to

585
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: you and chat to you and tell you you're doing a

586
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: good job and ask for what they want. You don't

587
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: really know if you're doing it right or not, and

588
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: it becomes very monotonous in the days run into each other.

589
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: I found that hard. I went back to work four

590
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: days a week when Roff was about four or five

591
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: months old, which in retrospect was probably a bit early,

592
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: not for everyone, but for me, that was a bit early.

593
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: And when I went back, and I know a lot

594
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: of women experience if they had that sense of it,

595
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: just felt like everything had changed. It felt like I

596
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: didn't have a place in that organization anymore. You know,

597
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 2: I still have my job in the sense of I

598
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: still had the same title and I had the same pay,

599
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: but I didn't feel like I had my job anymore.

600
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 2: And I pushed through for a couple of months, mostly

601
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: because my husband didn't insisted that I pushed through because

602
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 2: he wanted. I think he was really scared I was

603
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: going to make a snap decision because I'd just returned

604
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: to work, and that any work was going to be hard,

605
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: and that I was going to quit a job that

606
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: I loved and I remember he said to me, if

607
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: you feel the same way every day for six weeks,

608
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: we bailed. It was really good. Made it meant that

609
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: when I left, I was sure and I was definitely

610
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: the right call. It was definitely the right call. And

611
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: it meant that I had the opportunity to write a

612
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: book and to start writing newspaper columns and do some

613
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: consulting again and start public speaking professionally. And yeah, it's

614
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: been it's ended up being a huge blessing in disguise.

615
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: But having said that, I think the experience so many

616
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: women have of that transition back to work being incredibly bumpy,

617
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: of feeling like they're no longer competent, a feeling like

618
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: they don't belong, a feeling like they're being forced out,

619
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: you know, all of that. So many women experience it,

620
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: and the best thing for all of us can't be

621
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: a new job. So there's something going on with businesses

622
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 2: and organizations and employer where we're not doing the right

623
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: thing by women when they return to work. We're not

624
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: looking after them the way we should be.

625
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've come a long way, but still

626
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: have a lot of areas to work on before we

627
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: go any further, guys, I've got a little recommendation for

628
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: you all that's been adding some yay to my days.

629
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: I'm always on the hunt for healthy ways to fuel

630
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: the body and mind, especially when I'm punching out these episodes,

631
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: and I try to look for organic, natural and plant

632
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: based where I can. One of my favorite ossie businesses,

633
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: Pure Harvest, have recently introduced their delicious non oat milks

634
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: blended with nuts that add so much creamy, satisfying texture

635
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: to my smoothies or make the perfect addition to the

636
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: morning copper. There's creamy cashew, lush Almond my favorite, or

637
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: nut Bliss and they're all vegan, free from preservatives, artificial

638
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: additives and cane sugar, and importantly are ossie made. Pure

639
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: Harvest also has a wide range of other organic and

640
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: natural goodies, so that when snack time hits, you know

641
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: you're reaching for something healthy. Pure Harvest products are available

642
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: at Cole's, Woolworths and local Independence stores Australia wide. Now

643
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: back to the show, and gosh, I'm just I'm so

644
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: fascinated by the level of self awareness and honesty you

645
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: have reflecting on those times as well looking back at

646
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: each chapter and the decisions that you made. It's so

647
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: interesting to hear you kind of go through them and

648
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: what you were thinking at certain.

649
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: Times and healthyware at the time though, but.

650
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: You know, this is what I love, that level of

651
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: reflection with hindsight, so many things become clear. But now

652
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: looking back at that time, I mean, the first book

653
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: that you wrote, the best selling book, not just Lucky,

654
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: touches on something I think is really interesting, particularly for

655
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: other women who aspired to become mothers and have a

656
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: career and explore all the different sides of themselves and

657
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: get that sense of self pre children as well. You know,

658
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: self doubt and balancing ambition with likability as women in

659
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: high powered roles is also very difficult, and I feel

660
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: like you represent overcoming so many of those things in

661
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: such a dignified way, even though you might not necessarily

662
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: think it was dignified at the time. If it's not

663
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: just luck, you know, I think we're so incredibly fortunate

664
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: to be here. There are so many sliding doors moments

665
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: without which we wouldn't be where we are. And you know,

666
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: I was adopted, so I definitely have a keen sense

667
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: of that, you know, state of affairs, but everything and

668
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: untold resilience reminds me just how lucky we are to

669
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: be in this country, let alone, with all the privileges

670
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: that we have. But if it's not just luck that

671
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: leads us to where we are, what do you think

672
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: it is that helps people find their place in the world,

673
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: their right pathway, especially at a time where it's so

674
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: overwhelming to find what that is.

675
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean diferently wrong. I think luck contributes to

676
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: the experience as we have in life. I think privilege

677
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,479
Speaker 2: contributes in an enormous way the experiences that we have

678
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: in life. My concern when I wrote not just lucky

679
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: was that so many of the intelligent, capable women I

680
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: knew attributed their achievements holy to luck. They were in

681
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 2: the right place at the right time, those kinds of

682
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: phrases that suggest external factors made them successful. Now, external

683
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: factors contribute to anyone's success, Like absolutely, I accept that,

684
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: But I don't think you find that many blokes saying yeah,

685
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: I got lucky. We are socialized as women to play

686
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: down our achievements because if we think, we think that

687
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 2: if we speak openly and say yeah, yeah, I had

688
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: smashed that, like I worked really hard. I am good

689
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: at that. Oh gosh, like it's awful to say it

690
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: out loud, like I kind of I even have to

691
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 2: say good at that because I can't say what I

692
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 2: am personally good at. I am writing things like I

693
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: feel saying that, because I feel like everyone looking at

694
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: me is going to go, oh, she's all right, doesn't she.

695
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 2: Women think we are more We feel that we will

696
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: be more likable, particularly in the workplace, if we make

697
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: ourselves small, and so we try and say that our

698
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: achievements are the result of external forces rather than internal forces,

699
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: when of course internal forces have something to do with it.

700
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 2: You don't get a promotion without working hard for it.

701
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 2: You don't start a business the way you did without

702
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 2: separate even to the hard work. I think hard work

703
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: can even be something that we say, oh, it worked

704
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,919
Speaker 2: really hard. Yeah. But you were also smart. You also

705
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: had an idea nobody else had. You also had the

706
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: guts to go and try it. You also had the

707
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: smarts to be able to set up a business where

708
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: you have to go about pulling together so many different things.

709
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: You did the late nights. You took the risk, you

710
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: had the brains to make it happen, and you have

711
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: the good sense to push on at times when it

712
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: would have felt hard. That's not luck. I'm sure there

713
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: was a little bit of luck in there. Yeah, anything

714
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 2: successful has a little bit of luck. But we focus

715
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 2: on the luck. We don't focus on all of the

716
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: other things. I think as women, so I mean, for me,

717
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 2: if I look at my kind of path, there have

718
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: been huge external circumstances that have dictated it, including having

719
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: a baby and becoming really sick for a period. Sure,

720
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: and there's been a lot of really lucky opportunity. You

721
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: know that I went into the workforce when labor was

722
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 2: in government was an amazing opportunity. There's been enormous luck

723
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: that's helped me along the way. But at the same time,

724
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: I've also worked really hard with my bummer and I

725
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: have found what I'm good at, and I've stuck with

726
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: what I'm good at, And I think I've been always

727
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: willing to give something a go, kind of going back

728
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 2: to that enthusiastic kind of character trait I think that

729
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 2: I have. I'm always willing to have a go at something,

730
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: and when I do it, I do it at one

731
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: hundred kilometers an hour, flying into the wall if I

732
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: have to.

733
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 1: So that leads me to another one that I think

734
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 1: is another big topic for women who do up their

735
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: identities up very much in productivity and output, is because

736
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: that has been such a struggle to work hard to

737
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: get to where you are and then particularly developing a

738
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: chronic illness, how do you manage the burnout? How do

739
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,879
Speaker 1: you find a place for yourself to not necessarily work

740
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: yourself into a complete crash, and that you know, that

741
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: chronic burnout cycle is something I'm such a victim of,

742
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: and I know all this stuff in my mind, but

743
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: I mean, this whole podcast is about separating your productive

744
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: identity from joy. Can I do it myself? Absolutely not.

745
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: I'm such a work in progress. And how does that

746
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: then play in with imposter syndrome and self doubt of

747
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: not feeling worthy when you're not being busy and when

748
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 1: you're not being editor at large of this and you know,

749
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: fulfilling those roles and titles. How have you balanced that

750
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: because your body has forced you to go a little

751
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: bit slower.

752
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 2: And I think that's how I've learned it. I don't

753
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: think I've learned the lesson, to be honest, I think

754
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: I'm still learning the lesson.

755
00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: No, yeah, me too, That's why I'm asking.

756
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: You for I'm there yet. So I became really seriously

757
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: ill about three years ago and was diagnosed with a

758
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: brain tumor, and since then I've had two brain surgeries

759
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 2: and many, many weeks of daily radiation, and as a result,

760
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: none of my hormones work, which sounds a bit weird,

761
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: but that has extraordinary implications for your metabolism, your wellness,

762
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: your ability to wake up in the morning, how much

763
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: water your body holds, to your energy, to you how

764
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 2: you build muscle, to all sorts of things. And that

765
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 2: has forced me to change. But I haven't done it

766
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: graciously or gracefully. I have changed kicking and screaming, and

767
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 2: I think I'm only just getting there. We're coming to

768
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: the end of a year where I've gone into a

769
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: dream or crisis three times and the doctors have basically said,

770
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 2: you've got it, recognized you have new limits. And we

771
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: talk about living without limits. I've got limits and I

772
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 2: have to live within them because otherwise I won't be

773
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 2: living anymore. So I am definitely learning the hard way.

774
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 2: I'm learning through hospital visits, more medicines, and a lot

775
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 2: of threats from my husband and other people who love me.

776
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: But for me, the one thing that has helped that

777
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 2: I think I have learned is I have become a

778
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: lot better just telling people how it is. You know,

779
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 2: I said at the start of this chat that you

780
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: know I'm doing our chat today from bed. I think

781
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 2: there was a period at the side of this year

782
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: I would have hidden that. I would have tried to

783
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: make it look like it wasn't in bed. I just

784
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: wouldn't have told anyone I asked for help at work,

785
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: I tell my boss when I need flexibility, I will

786
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: be honest and just say today my guts aren't feeling right,

787
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: or my body is not feeling right, or whatever it

788
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: might be. I'm honest with my because I don't metabolize

789
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: food properly anymore, and because I can't build muscled because

790
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: I don't have growth hormone I put on and I'm

791
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: steroid dependent. I put on a huge amount of weight,

792
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: and I find that really difficult from a sense of

793
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: self perspective. I still get a shock when I look

794
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: in the mirror. And I tried to hide that away

795
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: from the world and just eat very little and exercise

796
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: my butt off and try and get on top of it,

797
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: until I realized that even when I did that, it

798
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: didn't do anything, because your hormones are so important, and

799
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 2: I think I tried to hide how much that was

800
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: hurting me from everyone for a long time, whereas now

801
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: I'm trying really hard, as uncomfortable as it is, to

802
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 2: put words around it and just say this is how

803
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 2: I feel. You know, My main memory of the night

804
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: we met Sarah is a feeling I'm so uncomfortable, so

805
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: desperately uncomfortable, and not wanting people to look at me. Oh,

806
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 2: I don't want that to be my memory of meeting

807
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 2: someone fun, Like what an awful thing to remember to

808
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: define that day. And I think a lot of women,

809
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: regardless of health implications, how our bodies, how we feel

810
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: in our bodies, and how we feel about our bodies,

811
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: dictates our mood so much, completely detects our mood to

812
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: the point that me getting on a scale in the

813
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: morning can decide whether or not I'm going to have

814
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 2: a happy day or a sad day. Like I'm not

815
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: there yet, but I don't want one thing about me

816
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: to have that kind of power over me. And I

817
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 2: think what I am trying to do, and I am

818
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 2: not there yet. Is to accept what this body can

819
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: do and what this body can no longer do, and

820
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 2: what it does look like and what it's no longer

821
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: capable of looking like no matter what I try and

822
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: what I do, and try and find a way where

823
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: I can like it anyway. And I am one hundred

824
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: percent not there yet, But that's where I'm trying to go.

825
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: I think your willingness to articulate it as well, particularly

826
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 1: because you are so good at words and writing in

827
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: such a warm, endearingly witty and communicative way that without

828
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: probably realizing it, because you don't feel like you're there yet,

829
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: you're taking so many other women along for the ride

830
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: and allowing them, in their own way to do that.

831
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: And I mean, I'm the same. You know, the small

832
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: things can trigger me into a terrible day, particularly if

833
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: I'm having a fatigue burnout or a flare up of anxiety,

834
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: and I just need the blinkers on all the time

835
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: until I can kind of like, you know, remember that

836
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: if you're discerning about what you do, you can still

837
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: live a really full life. And you know, we all

838
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: have limits, maybe ours a smaller than other people's or

839
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: than they used to be, but we can also be

840
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: incredibly productive in a small amount of time. You just

841
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: have to learn to be honest.

842
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 2: And I am about to compare my child to a

843
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: life threatening disability, but I can see some comparisons between

844
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: the shock I had when I first had roughie of

845
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: recognizing that I couldn't work the way I used to anymore.

846
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 2: And I tell you I tried. I trecked that little

847
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: baby all over the country trying to just work the

848
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 2: way I used to work, and slowly realizing wasn't possible.

849
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 2: That I had a new job as a parent, and

850
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: it was a joyful job, and it was an unpaid,

851
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 2: joyful job, but we're still a job that took time,

852
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: and I couldn't work the way I used to work.

853
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: It's been similar becoming sick in that I've had to

854
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: learn that it's just not possible.

855
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: That also reminds me of the narratives we tell ourselves

856
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 1: and the impact they have. You know, you could tell

857
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: yourself that you're a sick person and you need to

858
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 1: give up on everything. But at the same time as

859
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: you've had this diagnosis, you've not only moved from editor

860
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: in chief at Mamma mea but since taken over the

861
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: reins at Future Women, becoming editor at large of that

862
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: brand new organization and written an incredible book literally since COVID,

863
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: and I think it's such an amazing reminder that your

864
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: life is dictated by the way you interpret what happens

865
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: to you, and you don't have to take on the

866
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: narrative that others might that I'm sick, I can't do anything,

867
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: I can't have a job. You can do it differently

868
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: and still come to amazing outcomes. So I'm just so

869
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: inspired by everything you do at Future Women. This book

870
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: has blown my mind. There are nineteen incredible stories, but

871
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: to add to it, the twentieth is your story, which

872
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I've just spent forty five minutes talking

873
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: about your story before we got to the book, because

874
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: I think that is a story of untold resilience, because

875
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: many of us do see you mceing or running the

876
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: Future Women events without knowing how many other things are

877
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: going on for you. And you know how many different

878
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: chapters it took to get you to this point, let

879
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: alone to write a book about nineteen other amazing women.

880
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: So talk us through this book. I love that you

881
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: referred to it as when you were looking for a

882
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: compass of personal fortitude. I think that's exactly what it's become.

883
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: And the resounding message for me was how you know

884
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 1: the futility in adversity of saying why me? And I

885
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: think that's something wonderful about you too that you didn't

886
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: go why me? Why have I had this life altering illness?

887
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: You've turned it into something. You've kept working, you've kept

888
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: being a mum, and you've kept inspiring other women. So

889
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: talk us through the idea for the book and why

890
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 1: we all need resilience this year.

891
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 2: Well, mostly thank you. That was incredibly kind and generous.

892
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 2: I have a tendency to write the book I wish

893
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 2: i'd had just previously. All my books are essentially solving

894
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: problems I had a couple of years earlier, or in

895
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 2: this case, at the time. So at the beginning of

896
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: the pandemic, back in March kind of early April, I

897
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: really wanted to talk to my nan. My nan died

898
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: in twenty thirteen, but she lived through the Polo pandemic

899
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 2: epidemic and tuberculosis, and she I remember her stories of

900
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 2: being forced to stay home from school and look after

901
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: her sibling for almost a year because of polio, and

902
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 2: they were keeping They were so scared about kids and

903
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: polio at that time that she had to stay home

904
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 2: to stay safe, and he loved school and that was

905
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 2: an extraordinary punishment not to be allowed to go to school.

906
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: And she was a fierce vaccination advocate as a result.

907
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 2: And I just wanted to talk to her about what

908
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 2: it was like and how she got through and how

909
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: she kept herself sane and sort of have that reminder

910
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: that this too shall pass. And I couldn't talk to

911
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: her obviously, so I went and talked to other people's nands.

912
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: I just borrowed a nan for a day, nineteen of.

913
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 2: Them in fact. So we went searching for Australian women,

914
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: many of them not born in Australia, but all of

915
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: them who consider themselves were Australian citizens now. And we

916
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: found women mostly in their eighties and nineties and asked

917
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 2: them to share the stories of their life with us.

918
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 2: And it was the most incredible privilege that, during those

919
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 2: dark early months of the pandemic, I spent hours on

920
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 2: the phone to Bowl and Phoebe and Be and Dorothy

921
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 2: and heard about their life in often quite small snatches

922
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 2: because we're talking to women who are quite elderly and

923
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 2: often couldn't be on the phone for long periods of time,

924
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 2: or we're talking about moments of their lives that were

925
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 2: horribly traumatic and had to work themselves up to telling

926
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 2: those stories. But each of the women in this book

927
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 2: are just wise, even beyond their rather great years, and

928
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 2: they shared really generously and really openly with our community,

929
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 2: and the result is these beautiful stories which are I think,

930
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 2: uplifting and life affirming and remind us that this will

931
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: be something that happens to us. It will not be

932
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: who we are, and it will not be the only

933
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: thing that happens to us. And I'm really proud of

934
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: this book, mostly because I'm proud of the women.

935
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god, look at your face. You're sparkly. I

936
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: always love the point in each episode where we find

937
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: the thing that makes people's eyes sparkle, like that is

938
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: your yay. And I had that same sparkly feeling when

939
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: I was reading the book. I can't imagine what it

940
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: felt like to actually speak to these women. They're so

941
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: diverse and their experiences are so unimaginable. You know, there

942
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: are Holocaust stories, the Rwandan genocide. There's just such a

943
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: breadth of excp experience that reminded me personally about the

944
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 1: strength of the human spirit, the fact that you need

945
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: so little to create joy, and that in really dark

946
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 1: times people don't lose sight of that joy and that's

947
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: how they survive. But also the biggest thing for me

948
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 1: was that none of the stories were reprimanding of us

949
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: finding the pandemic hard because it's not as hard as

950
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: they had it. You know. I found that so interesting

951
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: because something I've stuck to this whole year. Because we

952
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,479
Speaker 1: are privileged, and you do get a guilt complex about

953
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: still having a job to do or still having a

954
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: house to live in. That idea of telling people they

955
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: can't be sad because others have it worse is like

956
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: telling people they can't be happy because others have it better.

957
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: None of those women were like, I live through a

958
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: concentration camp and you should. You're just getting a taste

959
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: of what we have there. You know, adversity affects us

960
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: all differently at different times for different people, but the

961
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: takeaways for what resilience you can develop in those scenarios

962
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 1: are the same, and I think that's so wonderful.

963
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 2: I think that everyone take something different from this book.

964
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 2: But what you've just said is a really eloquent and

965
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 2: lovely description of what we wanted people to have, which

966
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: is not that you sit there and go, oh, these

967
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 2: women's lives are so bad. See I'm fine, I've got

968
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 2: it good. That's not what we're looking for. That's not

969
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 2: what we're trying to create. You know. I don't talk

970
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: about having been sick and the brain surgery so people go, well,

971
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 2: at least I'm not having brain surgery today, so you know,

972
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 2: my life's good. That's not the purpose of it. I

973
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: think it's about recognizing that strength and resilience matter regardless

974
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 2: of what you're going through. And if what you're going

975
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: through is hard for you today, it is hard for

976
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: you today. No one else gets to tell you that

977
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 2: it isn't. And I think this period of time has

978
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: been incredibly difficult for a whole lot of people. You know,

979
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: these last few years, I've watched my husband sit through

980
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 2: eight nine hour brain surgery's wondering if his wife was

981
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 2: going to survive. I've watched him wonder if he's going

982
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 2: to be a single father. I've watched him go through

983
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 2: incredible stress and trauma and fear. He still says he

984
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 2: found this year the hardest, wow, because he didn't have

985
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 2: his ways of coping. He was like, you go, murfy

986
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: broke his hand in the middle of the pandemic. Don't

987
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: ask me why he was skateboarding because he hate but anyway,

988
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 2: he was skateboarding and he couldn't kind of do his

989
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 2: substitute exercise either because he had this broken hand. And

990
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: he he said that was his mechanism for coping, was

991
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 2: being out of the house, out in nature and active.

992
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: And he was like, and that got ripped away from me.

993
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: But then he found it really tough, and I think

994
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: I need something tough. You're finding something tough and you

995
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,439
Speaker 2: don't have to spend your life thinking is this tough

996
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 2: enough for me to feel this bad or sad?

997
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and something else I took out of it, which

998
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: is also something I've spoken about a few times on

999
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: the podcast. I truly believe feminism requires male feminists as

1000
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: much as it requires strong female role models. It requires

1001
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: the men to also believe in equal rights for their daughters,

1002
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: their wives, their children, their sisters, and you know, being

1003
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 1: married to Jeremy, becoming a mum to Raffie and writing

1004
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: a children's book now. I think it's so wonderful that

1005
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 1: you're writing for all the generations that are touching your life,

1006
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: and men do have such a big role to play.

1007
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: There are so many men in these stories who were

1008
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: progressive in relation to equality years before their time, but

1009
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 1: who made the women their daughters or their wives or whatever,

1010
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 1: you know, the people who they are.

1011
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And I try very

1012
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: hard to live my feminism every day, get wrong a lot.

1013
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 2: I love the Guilty Feminist podcast because I am a

1014
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 2: guilty feminist who regularly kind of stumbles through and realizes

1015
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 2: I'm not living as a feminist in the way i'd wish.

1016
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 2: But my husband's doing the same and my son's doing

1017
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: the same alongside this, my son wouldn't be able to

1018
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 2: articulate that, but you know, we're all giving it a crack.

1019
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: And I think one of the things we think, particularly

1020
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 2: around marriage and partnership, is that you have a conversation

1021
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 2: about equality once, and therefore you will be equal forever. Yes,

1022
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: quality conversation. Every day. Every day you slip backwards and

1023
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 2: forwards in and out of traditional gender roles, and sometimes

1024
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 2: you might be happy and comfortable with those Sometimes you

1025
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 2: might not be, but the only way you know is

1026
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 2: if you question them, which means that evolving conversation about

1027
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 2: you know, we're now having the conversation my little boy's

1028
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 2: about to go to school next year. Okay, that changes things.

1029
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: We're finishing the day at three pm. We can't pick

1030
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 2: him up at six anymore the way we used to

1031
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 2: with childcat. What does this mean for my work? What

1032
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 2: does that mean for him? What does that mean for

1033
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 2: who cooks dinner? What does that mean for who does

1034
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 2: the drop off in the morning. It's a constantly evolving conversation,

1035
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: and we don't get equality unless we have male and

1036
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 2: female feminists at the table having those conversations vigilantly.

1037
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I also think it's taken me a little while,

1038
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: particularly when I was a corporate I found it really

1039
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: difficult to be a feminist and not feel like that

1040
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: meant I needed to be aggressively non feminine. I thought

1041
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 1: I needed to be, you know, exhibit masculine kind of

1042
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: aggressive attitudes, and that I needed to lose the softness

1043
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,959
Speaker 1: of our feminine side that you know, I had to hide.

1044
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: I couldn't be hormone or during my period because that

1045
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 1: was so unfeminist. If I learned on my husband for

1046
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: emotional support, I.

1047
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: Would be deeply feminist to be by a partner when

1048
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 2: you're experiencing pain.

1049
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know. I just I think we have

1050
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: this really one dimensional view sometimes of what is supposed

1051
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: to be more of a multidimensional, substantive, evolving picture of equality.

1052
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 2: And I think it's about you know, your podcast is

1053
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 2: about work and joy. I think it's about genuinely finding

1054
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 2: the balance between the two. That a relationship is work,

1055
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 2: and that a partnership is work, and the family is work,

1056
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 2: and running a household is work and it is also joy.

1057
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 2: It is also an immense source of joy. And recognizing

1058
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 2: where your strengths and weaknesses lie and what your preferences are,

1059
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 2: the genuine preferences, not what the world has told you

1060
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: you should be. And being able to ask for help

1061
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 2: and say I'm not coping, I need you to do

1062
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 2: this is important. And I think that open dialogue is

1063
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 2: what makes a relationship stronger. Not a relationship where you

1064
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 2: never fight, or you never argue, or you never free,

1065
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 2: but a relationship where you continue to have the conversation

1066
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 2: even when it's hard.

1067
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: Such good advice and before we do move on to

1068
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,399
Speaker 1: that joy section, which I should have left much more

1069
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 1: time for, but I was just so fascinated by everything else.

1070
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: What is your take on success and how has that

1071
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: changed over time? Again, I think it's something we get

1072
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: very preoccupied by in our early years, and our relationship

1073
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: changes towards success as we become more in tune with

1074
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: other metrics and ways to measure our life. So what's

1075
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: your relationship with success?

1076
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 2: If you'd ask me this at twenty five, I would

1077
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 2: have said success is winning, yes, being the best. And

1078
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,720
Speaker 2: I think there's still a part of me that believes

1079
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 2: that because I am deeply competitive. But I think I've

1080
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 2: moved a long way away from it, and I'm moving

1081
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: ever closer to a place where success is happiness and

1082
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 2: that a successful life is one where I can say

1083
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 2: I genuinely had long periods of happiness in my life.

1084
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 2: And for me now, success isn't running myself into the

1085
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 2: ground because that means being in a hospital. And success

1086
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 2: isn't beating myself up about not looking right because that's

1087
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 2: a waste of time. And success isn't focusing on my

1088
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: career to the exclusion of my beautiful kid, and my

1089
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: partner and my friends. For me, being sick forced me

1090
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 2: to slow down and showed me the importance of having

1091
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: a community around me, and having a network around me

1092
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 2: of people who love me and support me and who

1093
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: I love and support back. And I don't believe in debts,

1094
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 2: but if there is a debt, I still owe a

1095
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: lot of them because a lot of people have been

1096
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: helping me. I haven't done a lot of helping, and

1097
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,959
Speaker 2: so for me, success has to look less like being

1098
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 2: the best more like being happy. And for me, that

1099
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 2: happiness comes from giving back to those people I love

1100
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 2: so much. Happiness means having outrageous barbecues where we spend

1101
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: four hours cleaning up afterwards, but it was worth it

1102
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 2: because gosh, everyone had a great time. And sending care

1103
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 2: packages to my friends during COVID and checking in on

1104
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: the neighbors, and spending time with the people I work

1105
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 2: with because I care about them and I want them

1106
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,240
Speaker 2: to succeed, not just because I want me to succeed.

1107
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 2: So I am slowly broadening myself to a definition of

1108
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 2: success which is a more holistic one.

1109
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: I love that, and I think that competitiveness in a

1110
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 1: lot of us and in the historical context of feminism

1111
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: to this point has led a lot of us to

1112
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 1: be quite protective over where we get to and the

1113
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: success that we might achieve. So I love that you

1114
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 1: mentioned the idea of people around you succeeding as well

1115
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 1: as yourself, and not to the exclusion of each other.

1116
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: You know often say success doesn't have when you share it,

1117
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: it doubles well.

1118
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 2: Agreed, agreed. You know, I always think a friend of mine,

1119
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 2: back Bex Sparrow, who said once your real friends are

1120
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 2: the ones who, when you're on stage getting the award

1121
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: new look at and the audience, They're the ones smiling

1122
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 2: the hardest and clapping the hardest. And I want to

1123
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 2: be that friend. I think I see success less about

1124
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 2: being on the stage anymore, though I still want to

1125
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 2: be on the stage, sometimes more about being in the audience.

1126
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: You know, I am very privileged and have an extraordinary

1127
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 2: group of friends and colleagues who if I can be

1128
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 2: useful or helpful in their success, then I will consider

1129
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 2: that my own success because I've been a contributor, and

1130
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 2: I'll take joy in what's happened for them and to

1131
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 2: them amazing.

1132
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: Well, very last section, what is your playta How do

1133
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: you unwind from being productive achieving editor in chief Jamiller

1134
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: and just play or forget what time it is? Do

1135
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 1: you watch Netflix? Are you a reader? What have you bing?

1136
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: And you know? How do you just play?

1137
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 2: I do all of that. I don't think I have

1138
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 2: a one thing. If I do, it's the things that

1139
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 2: take prominence for me are playing board games with my

1140
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 2: He's just at the age when he's getting the board

1141
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 2: game thing and he's getting competitive, which I love my murchuring.

1142
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 2: So my husband and my son and I do a lot.

1143
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: Have done a lot of board gaming together through COVID

1144
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 2: because there's nobody else around. It's definitely being with people

1145
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 2: and entertaining and hosting. I like having people in my house.

1146
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 2: I like putting on a show. I like cooking for everyone.

1147
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 2: I like looking after everyone. I liked them to have

1148
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 2: an extraordinarily good time, and I like to do it

1149
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 2: all again the next day. And I think that that

1150
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 2: sense of providing for and looking after my mates something

1151
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 2: that's really important to me. And increasingly cooking has become

1152
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 2: my new meditation. And I think I've been stuck at

1153
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 2: home a lot the last few years, being unwell, and

1154
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: also had a lot of people visiting me, so baking

1155
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 2: and cooking for people who visited became a real obsession,

1156
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 2: and it's now become almost almost meditative.

1157
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: So I see a cookbook coming on somewhere in the future.

1158
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 2: I'm not that good.

1159
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: Second last question, Three interesting things about you that don't

1160
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 1: normally come up in conversation.

1161
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 2: Okay, so they're properly quirky.

1162
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: They're the best ones.

1163
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: The first one is I have a bone in my nose.

1164
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 2: So my first brain surgery, they went through my nose

1165
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 2: and my entire septum and it was so bad that

1166
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 2: I had not enough cartilage to rebuild it, and so

1167
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 2: they rebuilt my nose with a bone from my root.

1168
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I am a platinum frequent flyer.

1169
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 2: Nice afraid of flying?

1170
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: Stop it?

1171
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 2: How did you do all those flights in that year?

1172
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 2: Keep doing it? I hate it. I don't cope. I

1173
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 2: break down, I talk to strangers, I hold people say

1174
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 2: I'm not a good flyer, but I keep doing.

1175
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: It because do you clap when the plane lines? Though?

1176
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 1: Please tell me one of those people.

1177
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 2: Okay, good, but I do feel extraordinary relief when the

1178
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 2: plane lands. And then I am a very, very good

1179
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 2: face painter.

1180
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: Wow, what a skill, my.

1181
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 2: Secret skill which has come into its own since.

1182
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: I love it. And very last question, since I love

1183
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 1: quote so much, what is your favorite quote.

1184
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 2: It's a little bit of a dark one, so I

1185
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 2: hope it's okay. It's by louise Erdrich from the Roundhouse,

1186
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 2: and it is the quote that got me through the

1187
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 2: terrifying health battles that I had at some points and

1188
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 2: was the only reason I was able to walk into

1189
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 2: those surgeries and not just run away screaming. And it

1190
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 2: is now that I knew fear, I also knew it

1191
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 2: was not permanent. As powerful as it was, its grip

1192
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 2: on me would loosen, it would pass.

1193
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: Oh, what an amazing way to finish. That's so beautiful.

1194
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 1: And I do think fear is something a lot of

1195
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: us let control us where Actually, you know, it's just

1196
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: one of many emotions that are temporary and they all pass.

1197
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. Thank you so much, Jamilla. You are just

1198
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you can feel the

1199
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: feels radiating through the computer, but I have so much

1200
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: admiration for you, and I think so many people are

1201
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: quietly being inspired by you and everything you.

1202
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 2: Do right back at to you. Thank you for having me.

1203
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:29,439
Speaker 1: What a woman, huh? And I don't think anyone needs

1204
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: another little push to grab a copy of Untold Resilience

1205
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: and her other brilliant pieces of work. If you enjoyed,

1206
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 1: please do share the episode and tag at Jamilla Risbee

1207
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 1: and myself. I can't say what joy it brings to

1208
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: know what you guys take away from these chats. And

1209
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,439
Speaker 1: in the spirit of festive giving, if you haven't left

1210
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: a review for us or hit that subscribe button, now

1211
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:54,760
Speaker 1: is the time to do it. It really really helps

1212
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 1: continue to grow the neighborhood and keep bringing you guests

1213
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 1: that help you seize your Yeah, we've only got a

1214
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: couple of episodes left this year before a little break.

1215
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. So I will be

1216
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: back next week. Hope you guys have a good one.