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Speaker 1: In November two thousand and two, at the age of

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Speaker 1: seventy two, a man named Clifford Palmer died, a beloved

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Speaker 1: husband of twenty two years and stepfather of seven, known

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Speaker 1: as Poppy Cliff to his brood. His gravestone reads devoted

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Speaker 1: to and sadly missed by children and grandchildren. By his

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Speaker 1: family's account, he was a hard working, gentle and devout man,

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Speaker 1: described as jovial, outdoorsy, and adamant about keeping his kids

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Speaker 1: on the right side of the law. What they didn't

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Speaker 1: know is that he had a secret, a whole other

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Speaker 1: life he lived before them, a whole other family who

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Speaker 1: he murdered. His crimes were so sinister he was described

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Speaker 1: by the detective who arrested him as the most hateful

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Speaker 1: man he ever knew, And yet he was allowed to

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Speaker 1: start again, allowed to shed the title of Australia's worst

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Speaker 1: family life mass murderer to reinvent himself, a title he

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Speaker 1: still holds to this day. I'm Jemma Bath and this

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Speaker 1: is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the

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Speaker 1: world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who

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Speaker 1: know the most about them. On September seventh, nineteen seventy one,

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Speaker 1: at a remote farmhouse forty k's south of Adelaide, Clifford

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Speaker 1: Bartholomew killed ten people. His wife, Heather, aged forty, his

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Speaker 1: seven kids, Neville nineteen, Christine seventeen, Sharon fifteen, Helen thirteen,

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Speaker 1: Gregory ten, Roger seven, and Sandra four. His sister in

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Speaker 1: law Winness twenty six and her son Daniel months were

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Speaker 1: also shot dead. So how was this killer, this mass murderer,

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Speaker 1: able to reinvent his life and to have a second

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Speaker 1: go at family across state lines? And why didn't we

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Speaker 1: know about it before twenty eighteen? During this episode, we're

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Speaker 1: going to hear two different voices. First, we'll be hearing

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Speaker 1: from Craig Cook. He is the very reason we know

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Speaker 1: about Clifford Bartholomew's second life. Craig's exclusive work as a

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Speaker 1: journalist for the Adelaide Advertiser revealed the truth not just

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Speaker 1: to the public, but also to the family Bartholomew had

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Speaker 1: been helping raise for over two decades after he'd killed

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Speaker 1: his own. Then we'll hear from former detective Alan Arthur,

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Speaker 1: who was the first on the scene back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy one. We thought it was important to bring in

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Speaker 1: someone who's not only familiar with the latest details of

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Speaker 1: the case, but also someone who lived through it, faced

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Speaker 1: Bartholomew and can explain how he was able to start

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Speaker 1: over Craig, Why haven't we heard this story before? And

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Speaker 1: I say we because I've never heard of it. My

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Speaker 1: producer's never heard of it. I've asked around the editorial team.

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Speaker 1: None of us have heard about this before. How has

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Speaker 1: it flown so under the radar?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'd never heard of it either. A great surprise

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Speaker 2: to me. The reason I came across this story was

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Speaker 2: editor of the Advertiser called John Whistler. I was as

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Speaker 2: old as Moses, and he had heard of it. And

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Speaker 2: he often dropped case studies on my desk and suggested

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Speaker 2: that I might look through them and see if there

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Speaker 2: was anything more defined. And one day he dropped these

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Speaker 2: dusty papers and photographs of the Hope Valley murders and

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Speaker 2: I just never heard of them. I asked around the office,

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Speaker 2: and people have never heard of it either. It was unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't believe a man who killed ten members of

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Speaker 2: his own family was given a death sentence and then

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Speaker 2: was allowed out after eight years on parole, given a

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Speaker 2: new identity and allowed to move into state.

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Speaker 1: Take us back to the nineteen sixties early seventies. Who

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Speaker 1: were the Buftholomew family and what did their life look

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Speaker 1: like in Hope Forest, South Australia.

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Speaker 2: Well, they were poor. They came from quite a rural

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Speaker 2: area South Australia, down the south on the way to

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Speaker 2: Victor Harbor for anybody who knows that region, close to

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Speaker 2: the wine and growing areas, but farmland back in those days.

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Speaker 2: And mister barthlol and in Clifford had a part time

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Speaker 2: job as at the Abbatoir. Then they didn't have much money.

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Speaker 2: I think they were renting the property from a farmer.

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Speaker 2: It was only had four or five rooms if I

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Speaker 2: re call Clifford and his wife and their seven children,

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Speaker 2: so nine people in a small cottage. That's really all

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Speaker 2: I know about them. Some people I've interviewed since who

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Speaker 2: kind of knew them at the time. So they're very quiet.

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Speaker 2: So he was very quiet, totally shocked by what he

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Speaker 2: did on that day Father's Day in nineteen seventy one.

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Speaker 1: Well, Hope Forest is a very isolated area, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: There's not many people there. It's not a big community,

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Speaker 1: very small.

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Speaker 2: Everybody would know each other. But yet it's a million

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Speaker 2: miles from It's not up north in South Australia where

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Speaker 2: you could be, you know, one hundred miles from anybody. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Alven's not too far away, but yes, isolated for sure,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, everybody would know everybody to be one pub,

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Speaker 2: every revery congregate there that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Do we know what state Clifford and Heather's marriage was

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Speaker 1: in by late nineteen seventy one, just to help set

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Speaker 1: the scene.

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Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't in a good place. Basically she'd asked

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Speaker 2: him to leave. The story was that he suspected she

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Speaker 2: was having an affair with a twenty two year old

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Speaker 2: Vietnam vet who would come to stay at their place

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Speaker 2: and help them out, basically become a lodger at their

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Speaker 2: house and was helping around the farm and doing different jobs,

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Speaker 2: and Clifford suspected that his wife was having an affair

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Speaker 2: with him. There's no evidence of it, in particular that

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Speaker 2: there was any kind of sexual relationship. There was definitely

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Speaker 2: a friendship if she went to Sydney with this person,

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Speaker 2: but absolutely no evidence that there was any full blown affair.

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Speaker 2: But he started acting quite weirdly Clifford, and she asked

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Speaker 2: him to leave. And on this day when the murders happened,

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Speaker 2: it was Father's Den, and he was invited back because

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Speaker 2: it was Father's Day. He left again that night, and

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Speaker 2: then he returned in the night and committed his slaughter.

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Speaker 2: So the suggestion is he may have been under pressure,

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Speaker 2: and he may have been depressed, of course, and he

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Speaker 2: was obviously fulfilled with rage and jealousy. That's still an

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Speaker 2: extraordinary action to take.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't really excuse hunting down and murdering ten people.

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Speaker 2: No, and your loved ones too.

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Speaker 1: So there were seven kids Heather yep. And then there

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Speaker 1: were two other family members staying there that night that

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Speaker 1: were also killed yep.

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Speaker 2: Winnis had a sister and she had a young baby

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Speaker 2: or eighteen month old child. They come down because it

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Speaker 2: was Father's Day, I think. And then there was another

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Speaker 2: child who'd come down to a couple of children of witnesses,

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Speaker 2: including Noline, who was an eight year old child. But

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Speaker 2: her brother, our older brother, decided he'd take her back

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Speaker 2: to Adelaide because he didn't like the atmosphere in the house.

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Speaker 2: That was what he'd said. He felt like something bad

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Speaker 2: was going to happen, and he was quite right. So

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Speaker 2: that's the only reason that Noline survived was because her

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Speaker 2: brother took her back to Adelaide and stayed with relatives.

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Speaker 1: How did this shooting unfold? Did it start with Heather

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Speaker 1: and then he just systematically went through rooms. Were they asleep,

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Speaker 1: were they awake?

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Speaker 2: It was the middle of the night, and he went

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Speaker 2: there with the intention of killing Heather. That's what he said.

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Speaker 2: He made full statements as documented evidence of his state

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Speaker 2: of mind and what he did in the order he

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Speaker 2: did it. It's incredibly graphic and very disturbing. He got

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Speaker 2: a mallet from the garage and he intended to stand

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Speaker 2: Heather and take her to the garage and shoot her

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Speaker 2: there so that nobody woke up. Once he hit her

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Speaker 2: with a ham mar As he woke up, all hell

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Speaker 2: broke loose, and yeah, I just can't imagine the scene

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Speaker 2: after that. There's some terrible, terrible imagery around it, all

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Speaker 2: on some graphic details about his daughter begging him not

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Speaker 2: to kill her. That was his oldest daughter and he

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Speaker 2: loved the best, he said in his statement. But he

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Speaker 2: shot her, and then he did systematically go around the house,

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Speaker 2: hitting people on the head with hammers and then chewing them. Unimaginable.

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Speaker 2: I think some of the family members try to stop him.

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Speaker 2: One of his sons definitely trying to stop him. There

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Speaker 2: was fights, but they could overpower him.

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Speaker 1: Well. He was quite forthcoming in his police interviews, wasn't

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Speaker 1: he about his why and his state of mind. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember some of the things he said. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: that he only meant to kill his wife, but I've

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Speaker 1: seen it. Also said that he realized once he killed

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Speaker 1: one of the children, he couldn't leave any of them

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Speaker 1: alive in his mind.

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Speaker 2: Because he loved them too much.

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Speaker 1: That's what he said, because he loved them too much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was his statement about why he then had

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Speaker 2: to systematically kill all the children. Most shocking to the

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Speaker 2: police officers who investigated this case was the fact that

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Speaker 2: he'd killed nine people. He went to the kitchen table,

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Speaker 2: sat down stead of drinking heavily, But after about thirty minutes,

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Speaker 2: he realized the baby was still asleep in the cop

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Speaker 2: and he went back and he put a bullet in

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Speaker 2: that baby's head. That really really destroyed the police officers

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Speaker 2: who investigated this. I just could not see the sense

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Speaker 2: of that, And that's that's why they call him a monster,

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Speaker 2: and he is, in their mind, the worst person I've

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Speaker 2: ever had to deal with.

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Speaker 1: So that would have been nineteen month old Daniel correct

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Speaker 1: his nephew.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was asleep.

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Speaker 1: The man the Clifford thought his wife was having an

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Speaker 1: affair with he was called mister X in the trial,

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Speaker 1: and he tracked him down. Could he tell you anything

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Speaker 1: about that time or was there a reason you decided

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Speaker 1: not to name him?

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Speaker 2: Not even any evidence you did have an affair, But

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Speaker 2: that was his argument. I've got a couple of things

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Speaker 2: to say about mister X actually, which we could include.

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Speaker 2: So I found mister X, but I chose not to

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Speaker 2: put him on the record. And the one thing that

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Speaker 2: was of interest was there was a medical reporter. He'd

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Speaker 2: been shot in the groin in Vietnam, and he didn't

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Speaker 2: have any function, so it wouldn't have been a sexual relationship.

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Speaker 2: Even if he was having an affair with his wife,

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Speaker 2: he didn't have the capacity to perform sexually. So I

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Speaker 2: spoke to a third party. I knew his name, and

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Speaker 2: I knew where he is, and I spoke to a

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Speaker 2: relative of his, and I gave them several opportunities to

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Speaker 2: talk to me, and in the end he chose not to,

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Speaker 2: and I couldn't see any reason to pursue it any further.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, I just didn't think he was going

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Speaker 2: to add anymore. And he was a twenty two year

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Speaker 2: old kid, and he didn't know anything. I think he

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Speaker 2: said at the time that he didn't have an affair

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Speaker 2: with Heather. He said he was a friendship. And the

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Speaker 2: night this happened, Clifford had been told by his wife.

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Speaker 2: Heather told him that they were moving out of the

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Speaker 2: farmhouse and they're going to move back into the city,

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Speaker 2: basically into the Port Adelaide area, and that's where mister

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Speaker 2: X was from. And this was something else that has

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Speaker 2: said by following you off, he believed that this mister

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Speaker 2: X was now going to become the father to his children.

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Speaker 2: This is what he strangely put together, that his family

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Speaker 2: was leaving, not only leaving him, but leaving the area

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Speaker 2: and going to set up house mister X.

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Speaker 1: But you couldn't find proof that that was what was.

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Speaker 2: Going to happen, No, no proof of all, but no

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Speaker 2: nobody else confirmed it. But that's wouldn't have surprised that

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Speaker 2: Heather was trying to get out of the situation. Marriage

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Speaker 2: already broken down.

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Speaker 1: Some of the interesting horrific things in his police interviews

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Speaker 1: that he did say was, you know, he tried to

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Speaker 1: excuse it by saying he had five months of mental

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Speaker 1: torture thinking that his wife was having this affair, and

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Speaker 1: then when he was shooting his family, he couldn't control

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Speaker 1: the screaming noises in his head, and so he just

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Speaker 1: kept going until it all went quiet. There's just something

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Speaker 1: so chilling about hearing this man being able to articulate

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Speaker 1: so clearly what he was doing.

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Speaker 2: Stare processes and what he So he's feeling the screaming

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Speaker 2: and the only thing that's going to stop the scream

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Speaker 2: is to keep killing people. Yeah, just very difficult to

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Speaker 2: get inside of his mind. These are his loved ones.

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Speaker 2: This is not strangers, There are not people attacking it.

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Speaker 2: These are the greatest loves of his life. And it

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Speaker 2: takes fifty minutes. It's a long time of killing and

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Speaker 2: beating and going back and Yeah, at some stage you

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Speaker 2: would think that something would say stop, that stop, enough

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Speaker 2: is enough. But obviously he must have got it in

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Speaker 2: his head that nobody could survive this because he loved them.

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Speaker 1: But forty to fifty minutes suggests so much premeditation. You

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Speaker 1: have to really be thinking as you're shooting to continue

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Speaker 1: for that amount of time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was having conversations with his children, especially

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Speaker 2: at this time, is discussions and begging and pleading, And

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Speaker 2: I think it was an instant with his summary, he

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Speaker 2: hit his son over the head and he kind of

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Speaker 2: became unconscious, and he went back to his bed, But

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Speaker 2: then the sun woke up again and there was a fight,

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Speaker 2: and then he ended up shooting his son after all

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Speaker 2: of the sudden Yeah, I just can't get inside his

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Speaker 2: head to imagine why you would keep going I mean,

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Speaker 2: what are you trying to achieve here? Obviously the obliteration

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Speaker 2: of your family. Well, something that really annoyed the investigators

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Speaker 2: is that they didn't have the courage to kill himself.

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Speaker 2: You really think if he'd gone through all this horror

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Speaker 2: to save his family from a horror, why wouldn't he

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Speaker 2: kill himself. What a selfish individual that he would go

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Speaker 2: back and shoot a baby. But he didn't have the

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Speaker 2: guts to kill himself. That's why they're describing as the

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Speaker 2: most horrendous man they'd ever met.

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Speaker 1: How were the murders discovered was he arrested pretty quickly

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Speaker 1: after all of this.

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Speaker 2: He found his mother at four or five o'clock in

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Speaker 2: the morning, who wasn't living too far away, and she

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Speaker 2: said call the police, so he did. It was the

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Speaker 2: Monday money after Father's Day, pauling weather, the middle of winter,

258
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Speaker 2: and yes, one police officer managed to find his way

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Speaker 2: down there and found the scene. While finding him was

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Speaker 2: still there in the kitchen, and then obviously he reported

261
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Speaker 2: it in and quickly escalated to seenior police officers getting

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Speaker 2: involved and heading down.

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Speaker 1: There after the break. I asked Craig about what it

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Speaker 1: was like interviewing Alan Arthur, the detective who arrested Clifford Buffalo.

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Speaker 1: You and you've spoken to some of the officers that

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Speaker 1: had to look at that scene and kind of investigate

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Speaker 1: that scene.

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Speaker 2: I spoke to both senior officers involved. There's footage, video

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Speaker 2: footage of the day without sounding virturedly probably a good thing.

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Speaker 2: And there they are looking like young men, shocked young men.

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Speaker 2: I interviewed them as seventy five year olds and they're

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Speaker 2: still shot by this case. It really has disturbed them

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Speaker 2: and what they saw that Daves. They said, no issue

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Speaker 2: have to witness something like that, and they just couldn't

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Speaker 2: make sense of it. Yeah, I just really children to

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Speaker 2: the bar in that story.

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Speaker 3: I can never Forgidge, never don't forgivable what he did

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Speaker 3: when it came to children. I mean, a two year

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Speaker 3: old baby and a cock was the gun to it.

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Speaker 3: Sertainly kills I mean, goodness, grace to me, it's not normal,

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Speaker 3: but it was for him.

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Speaker 1: Do we know if it made headlines at the time,

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Speaker 1: we're saying we don't. We haven't heard about it. Now

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Speaker 1: at the time nineteen seventy one, do people know about it?

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Speaker 2: I certainly made headlines. It was Australia's biggest mass killing.

286
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Speaker 2: It's Liz Australia's biggest mass family killing. So yes, it

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Speaker 2: made headlines around the country. Why it then disappeared, I mean,

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Speaker 2: Adelaide's down from a lot of murders and mysteries, this

289
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Speaker 2: one kind of definitely disappeared from the public consciousness. I

290
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Speaker 2: can't find a friend who remembers it. It's yeah, definitely,

291
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Speaker 2: just it got lost, I think. And there must have

292
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Speaker 2: been a lot of publicity around when he was released,

293
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Speaker 2: so that's seventy nine, but after that the story disappears.

294
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Speaker 1: He was sentenced to death by hanging, which was still

295
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Speaker 1: a thing back then in December nineteen seventy one. But

296
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Speaker 1: that didn't happen, did it.

297
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Speaker 2: He was sentenced to death by Dame Roma Mitchell. How

298
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Speaker 2: she became Dame Roman Mitchell. She was the judge and yes,

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Speaker 2: she's sentenced him to death by hanging. Everybody thought that

300
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Speaker 2: was probably just a just result. But even then they

301
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Speaker 2: knew the Dunstan government. If the Dunstan government came in,

302
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Speaker 2: they were probably going to get rid of the death

303
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Speaker 2: penalty and he probably would just serve life imprisonment. So

304
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Speaker 2: that was already kind of known when he got a

305
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Speaker 2: death sentence, but a life imprisonment probably and if as

306
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Speaker 2: long as it meant life imprisonment, I think everybody could

307
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Speaker 2: go with that. What became so shocking was after eight

308
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Speaker 2: years he applied for parole and Dame Roman Mitchell was

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Speaker 2: head of the prole board who gave him parole after

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Speaker 2: eight years in prison.

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Speaker 1: Why why, Craig, do we know? Why?

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Speaker 2: We don't? We have a few insights. The file apparently

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Speaker 2: is one sheet of paper, that is the file that

314
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Speaker 2: allowed Clifford bartholowing you back into the community. And then

315
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Speaker 2: who killed ten people, and the piece of paper basically

316
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Speaker 2: implies that he had mental issues at the time, depression,

317
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Speaker 2: and that the psychologist report suggested that he would never

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Speaker 2: do this ever again, which is quite leap it is,

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Speaker 2: and he probably shouldn't have had the opportunity to do

320
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Speaker 2: it ever again either, So that was the logic. And

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Speaker 2: then the other thing that came through was that this

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Speaker 2: was considered a domestic violence incident and therefore of a lesser.

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Speaker 2: If he'd killed ten strangers, there's no way he would

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Speaker 2: have been out of prison. But he killed his own family,

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Speaker 2: and therefore some kind of logic suggests that he he's

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Speaker 2: not a threat to anybody else.

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Speaker 1: That is mind boggling totally, because even I mean, you

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Speaker 1: try and wrap your head around the fact that, right,

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Speaker 1: they think that this guy isn't going to do it again,

330
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Speaker 1: so therefore we'll let him out. But it's also he

331
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Speaker 1: wasn't punished for the crimes he did do.

332
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Speaker 2: He was called a model prisoner, which I don't know

333
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Speaker 2: what that means, but yeah, a model prisoner. So I

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Speaker 2: didn't kill anybody in prison.

335
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Speaker 1: He wasn't just released after eight years. He was kind

336
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Speaker 1: of given a chance of a new life. He was

337
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Speaker 1: given a new identity by the government, wasn't.

338
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Speaker 2: He Eventually he wasn't given a new identity. Initially, he

339
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,199
Speaker 2: moved back into the community where he came from. He

340
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 2: moved back into Port Adelaide where he'd originally come from,

341
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Speaker 2: and there were threats against his life. Obviously, there was

342
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Speaker 2: a lot of outrage about the fact that he was

343
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Speaker 2: back in the community. And it was mainly because it

344
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Speaker 2: took a few years, but mainly because of the threats

345
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,880
Speaker 2: against his life that the decision was made to give

346
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Speaker 2: them a new identity, and he chose to move into state.

347
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Speaker 2: He went to Victoria.

348
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Speaker 1: He went by Clifford Palmer, so he kept his first

349
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Speaker 1: name his.

350
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Speaker 2: First name, just changed the second name to Palmer, not Bartholomew.

351
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Speaker 1: And who did he reinvent himself as that's a.

352
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Speaker 2: Very good question. I don't think we know a lot

353
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Speaker 2: of details about. But definitely a Christian man. Because he

354
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,479
Speaker 2: met his next wife, I think it may have been

355
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Speaker 2: a dancel, but he definitely claimed he was a man

356
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Speaker 2: of God, and she was very religious. That was a

357
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Speaker 2: very important factor for her and probably you know, one

358
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Speaker 2: of the main reasons they got together was the fact

359
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Speaker 2: that he was He said he was a man of God.

360
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Speaker 2: By this stage he was quite elderly. I can't remember

361
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Speaker 2: what work he did after that. He had a few

362
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Speaker 2: jobs before they moved to Queensland.

363
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Speaker 1: So he married Merle. He had a second marriage and

364
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Speaker 1: a second family.

365
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 2: Mel Gray Mel Gray born in Sri Lanka, immigrat to Australia,

366
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Speaker 2: who had seven children of Aron.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of eerie, isn't it. Seven children again?

368
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Speaker 2: Seven children again? Yeah? Yeah, We'll get to the stage

369
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Speaker 2: where I found his graves down and it was absolutely

370
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Speaker 2: mind blown by what it says on the graves down.

371
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Speaker 1: Do we know if Mel was aware of what he'd done.

372
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Speaker 2: The suggestion from the family. I later obviously had to

373
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Speaker 2: talk to the family eventually, and I'm pretty sure he

374
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Speaker 2: had said that he killed his wife. I think he

375
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 2: declared that, but it was supposed to be a jealous rage,

376
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Speaker 2: and the fact that he came out after eight years

377
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 2: suggested that it was nothing. It was a fit of

378
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 2: anger against one person, and that it was basically a

379
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 2: man slaughter. Church so easily justified. He had his release

380
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 2: papers which was still in his possession, and if he

381
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 2: turned those then maybe he had admitted the family. Winder

382
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 2: family seemed to know that he had killed his wife

383
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Speaker 2: in some stage, but it was, yeah, some misunderstanding or

384
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Speaker 2: didn't mean to kill her. And he only served eight years,

385
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Speaker 2: so therefore it kind of been that serious.

386
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Speaker 1: And what kind of stepfather was he?

387
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Speaker 2: They could not have been more glowing in their praise

388
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Speaker 2: for him as a stepfather. So seven children, and then

389
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Speaker 2: all marriages of those children, and then all those grandchildren.

390
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 2: I can't remember how many there are, that there's a lot.

391
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Speaker 2: And they said nobody could have a bad word for him.

392
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Speaker 2: The whole family enjoyed his company and never saw him

393
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 2: raise a first or be even angry in any situation.

394
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 2: That's what they told me. And obviously when they knew

395
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Speaker 2: the full story, they were very shoped.

396
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Speaker 1: Well he was in their lives. He was married to

397
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Speaker 1: Merl forever twenty two years. He died in two thousand

398
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: and two, in his seventies. She died in twenty twelve,

399
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 1: And by this point the truth of the magnitude of

400
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: his crimes were still kind of hidden to the family,

401
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 1: wasn't it. How did they find out.

402
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 2: Hidden to everybody knew obviously, and that new life had created.

403
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: They found out because I told.

404
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: Them tell us about how you came into this story.

405
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: You mentioned at the start that you got this case

406
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: report thrown onto your desk.

407
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 2: Well, whenever John threw something my way and it was

408
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: going to be interesting, he only chose really interesting stories.

409
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 2: And as we said, it was just one unbelievable and too.

410
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: I just knew there had to be more to it

411
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,439
Speaker 2: in some aspect, and I really did that even at

412
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 2: that stage, I wanted to know what happened to him,

413
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: But even more so when I met Noline, who was

414
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 2: the young girl who survived the massacre, because she was

415
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 2: still full of anger, hate and fear. This is a

416
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: woman in her fifties who had lived in incredible trauma

417
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 2: and she still feared from him, her uncle Barty. She

418
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 2: had nightmares about him coming back and shooting her. So

419
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: once I interviewed her, I definitely want to know what

420
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: happened to her clipper Bath. Following me, I thought we

421
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: owed it to her to tell her if he was dead.

422
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: There was strong chance he was, but she should know

423
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 2: and hopefully put her out of some kind of misery.

424
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Speaker 2: How she found out about the murders was just horrendous.

425
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: She was a police officers came to the house where

426
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 2: she was staying and her mother came in and told

427
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: her to go and go in the bedroom. So obviously

428
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: says she couldn't hear anything. The TV was under the

429
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: bedroom and while the police officers were informing as her so,

430
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: not her mother. I think it was an auntie who

431
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: was looking after it about what had happened. It came

432
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: up on the television and there were pictures and Eleen

433
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 2: so saw that her mother and brother were being killed,

434
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: plus her wife of family, seven cousins found out her

435
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 2: family had been and she sat there and watched the

436
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 2: TV and that's how she floaded. That's horrendous, yeah, and imaginable.

437
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: So no wonder she's got a lot of trauma and yeah,

438
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: So that was the first story I wrote, really was

439
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 2: about her her journey and however, we wanted to know

440
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 2: if he was alive, and then I kind of made

441
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: an approach to police. So I interviewed the two police

442
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: officers to to get the full story. They were very

443
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: kind in their time, and then I approached the police

444
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: and then if they could confirm if he was dead

445
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 2: or alive, I took a couple of emails and then

446
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 2: I got a very surprising email back that's confirm who

447
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: was dead, but also told me his surname, which I

448
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 2: was not expecting. So with that and I started looking

449
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: for him and I found him.

450
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: Well, you found he's found his grave. He found his tombstone, and.

451
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 2: That's how I knew, and I'd buy the dates. I

452
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: just worked out it had to be him. And what

453
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: was on the tombstone was the greatest love from your

454
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 2: children and grandchildren, just the man who killed his first family.

455
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 1: What did you think when you first saw that?

456
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: One of the most surprising things I've ever seen. I think,

457
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: just you can't. I mean, at this stage, I didn't

458
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: know there was seven children and all his grandchildren, so

459
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: I just couldn't understand it. I thought, how did that happen?

460
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: Maybe it's not him, because you know, here's the loving

461
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 2: children and grandchildren giving their grandpapa a lovely stand off.

462
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: I just yes. And then when I told Norlene, of

463
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: course I was that's so far worse. She couldn't believe

464
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: he'd gotten another family and lived happily. I mean, even

465
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 2: if he hadn't caused any more chaos. He didn't deserve that,

466
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: that was her opinion. He didn't deserve another life and

467
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 2: another family.

468
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: So how did you track down the second family that

469
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: all the kids and the relatives, and how did you

470
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: have these conversations with them about his true identity.

471
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 2: I tracked them down the same way I found Orleane properly,

472
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: which is social media. So people have got a presence

473
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: on social media. So you're just slow putting two and

474
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: two together. Eventually I worked out where he was from,

475
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: where Clifford must have been living, and then worked out

476
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: had Mills name by that stage, So eventually I worked

477
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: out who he was, where he was and where he lived.

478
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 2: I mean, we were ready to publish, and you have

479
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 2: to give the respect to that family and tell them

480
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: what are we publishing and warn them, yeah, they're in Queensland.

481
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: Maybe it wouldn't have even reached them being published in Adelaide.

482
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: Maybe not, but they deserve the respect to know what

483
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: was being published and what was being said about their

484
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 2: grandfather and stepfather. Very difficult. I thought the family handled

485
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: things magnificently. They had a family conference. They had told

486
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 2: everybody of an adult age about what was going to

487
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: be said and that it was probably true. In fact,

488
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 2: it was true. They researched it all themselves and they

489
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: dealt with it very well, terrible shocked at them all.

490
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 2: They just couldn't get their head around it.

491
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: One of the family members that you ended up quoting

492
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: in your stories kind of said he was glad he

493
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: was dead by then.

494
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. It would have been obviously far worse if it'd

495
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: been alive. Yeah, just an impossible situation if it'd been alive.

496
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: So thankfully it had all happened after Clifford had passed on.

497
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: I want to talk a bit more about Noline, because

498
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: she seems like, you know, a bit like the forgotten

499
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: victim in this story. How has that the crime shaped

500
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: her life?

501
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: Very hard to judge, but having interviewed her, I know

502
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 2: it's yeah, it's the most traumatic incident of her life,

503
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: and she has lived in fear. Basically she had. Some

504
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 2: people might think it's not realistic that he had ever

505
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: come back and kill her, but she believed that was

506
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 2: a possibility, that yeah, he was mad enough to kill Tempeo,

507
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: but why wasn't he mad enough to come and find

508
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: her and kill her? And she had children as well.

509
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 2: By the stage, she had a few children of her own,

510
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: and I think she suffered what all of us suffered,

511
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: which is the how can he have been let out

512
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: and how could have been given the chance of the

513
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 2: second life. She really struggled that he didn't he wouldn't

514
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: face punishment for wrecking her life and ten other lives,

515
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: I mean, and dozens of other lives. Potentially, There's a

516
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: whole population that he killed that night. It wasn't just

517
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: ten people. There was the futures, whether they got married,

518
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: they all have had children. There's a continuation there that

519
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: he obliterated and those kind of things. Yes, she really

520
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: struggled with she wanted him. I mean, she was very

521
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: frank about how she wanted him to die and he

522
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: should die in pain because she felt pain, and she

523
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: wanted him to have had a miserable life, and then

524
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: she found out he had an incredibly wonderful life for

525
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: the last twenty years of his life.

526
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: Is there an argument to the very least that she

527
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: should have been told that he was dead.

528
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I tried to get something happening at the time

529
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: around this case that victims should be informed. This is

530
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: an extraordinary case, but there are other incidences where victims

531
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: do not know what happened to the perpetrator. I mean,

532
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: other people have had new identities and disappeared, And I

533
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: think you should be told if somebody in that circumstances

534
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: has died, make a difference rather than people wondering what's

535
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: going on and if they're coming back. And yeah, I

536
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: think that's the least the police could do in those circumstances.

537
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: Did you contact the South Australian Parole Board and kind

538
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: of ask them retrospectively why did this happen? Could this

539
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: happen again? Were they able to give you any answers?

540
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 2: This South Australian prole Board on the head is Francis

541
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: Nelson QC. She's been head for thirty three years. She's

542
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: a great friend of Roma Mitchell's and she's a little

543
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: bit mystified too. But then she's said that they don't

544
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: have didn't have the full story back in nineteen seventy nine,

545
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: and that these days there would be far more evidence,

546
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 2: far more interviews and psychological profiling. She believes the Parole

547
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: Board today would have a lot more information to be

548
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: basing her judgment on. She can't say whether they'd make

549
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: the same decision or not, but I'm thinking probably not,

550
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: but who knows. But yeah, it's it's a surprise.

551
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: Which I guess is reassuring. But what worries me is

552
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: how many other Clifford's are out there from the sixties, seventies,

553
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:15,959
Speaker 1: eighties then perhaps got new identities that we don't know about.

554
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: Do you think that that's a common occurrence or am

555
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: I kind of catastrophizing it a bit?

556
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: No? No, I definitely think it was a common occurrence

557
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,479
Speaker 2: back in the sixties, seventies, eighties. Maybe it still happens,

558
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: probably happens in cases less horrific and less high profile

559
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: than this was at the time, des apite the fact

560
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: that it disappeared from public view. But yeah, there must

561
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: be a lot of people who get new identities.

562
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: When you look back at your career and all the

563
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: stories you've covered, how does this one compare?

564
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: Cover a lot of stories, a lot of amazing stories.

565
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: This is probably the most surprising. And the fact, yeah,

566
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: this would have to be the most surprising. Actually track

567
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: him down thinking I remember I was thinking, well, we're

568
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: never going to find him, and then thanks to the police.

569
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: I'd like to think somebody in the police officer did

570
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: the right thing and gave me his name. Maybe it

571
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: was an accident, but maybe not. And yeah, just from

572
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: that point of view, we ever going to find him again?

573
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I think we all knew he was dead,

574
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: but then it's actually find him to find out what

575
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: had happened for us twenty od years of his life. Yeah,

576
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: definitely the most surprising outcome.

577
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: It's been quite a few years since you kind of

578
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: broke the news to his second family. Have you heard

579
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: anything from them since? How they've fared since learning this?

580
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: Nothing? No, I wouldn't expect to. I hope they've fared

581
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: very well. I hope they coped and they put it

582
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: behind them, because what else can they do? I mean,

583
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: there was that there had absolutely no knowledge. I don't

584
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: imagine Merle had full knowledge of what had happened. And

585
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: where do you go and check up even on something

586
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: like that. I mean, there are many famous murder cases

587
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: in Australia. This should have been one of them, but

588
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: it wasn't. So they had no way of finding out

589
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: truth about what Clifford had done and whether what he

590
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,239
Speaker 2: was telling them was the truth. They did find in

591
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: his papers after he died, the release notice from the

592
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: prison which said he'd been released after eight years and

593
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 2: for murdering his wife. Of course we'd go back to

594
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: that time, and he wasn't charged with the other murders,

595
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: so it.

596
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: Wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been in the prison papers.

597
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 2: It was not his records. Yeah, so that was a

598
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: frustration for the police officers who believed he should have

599
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: been charged with all the murders at the time, and

600
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: then they were relaxed about it because he's got a

601
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: death sentence, and then ultimately that probably paid offer him

602
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: that he was not charged with all those other murders

603
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: so he could be made to look like he just

604
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 2: killed his wife in a fit of anger.

605
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: Did those police officers try to go back and get

606
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: those charges once he'd been released. Were they like, okay,

607
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: well let's try and charge him.

608
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: It was out of their hands. They won't see any

609
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: police officers. It's down to the prosecution. By that stage.

610
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: They did push telling me they were thought. I think

611
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: the police, even higher up the police thought he should

612
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: be charged, but there was a consensus that we waste

613
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: public money and he's going to prison for the rest

614
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: of his life anyway, so let's not waste our time.

615
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: I think the thing that surprises me about this story

616
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: not being bigger in terms of one of those stories

617
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: that all Australians know the name Clifford Buffalome slash Clifford Palmer.

618
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: Is that.

619
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: In the media, to have a good story, you need vision,

620
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: you need photos, you need color, and this had everything.

621
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: We've got the photos of the victims.

622
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: We've got photos of him exactly. There is footage of

623
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 2: the day that they found the bodies. There's the bodiyly

624
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 2: of Winness laying out in the open in the rain

625
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: with a cover over it. It's just just to see

626
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: that footage, it's just horrendous. You're there and you know

627
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: how those police officers are feeling. You can see the

628
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: look on their faces that they've just been inside that

629
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 2: has and they've never seen anything like it, and I

630
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: want to see anything like it again. Yeah, we've got

631
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: all that. It's not like we're missing matter. We've got

632
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: a full confession. There's no mystery about what happened in

633
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 2: more order on that day. So yes, that's another baffling

634
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 2: reason for why this is not not in the public consciousness.

635
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 1: And you can't really, through your travels explain why.

636
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: No, I've got no understanding why missing. The only thing

637
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 2: I can think of is that it was a family affair.

638
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 2: Somebody said that to me once. This was a family affair,

639
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 2: a personal episode, and therefore you know it's not about

640
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 2: particular interest. If you've been hunting and killed ten people

641
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 2: out in the forest, there's other people have done. Maybe

642
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: they would be more famous, but killing them in his

643
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: own farmhouse was obviously not the same impact. A lot

644
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 2: of people said it was a good bloke. I remember

645
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: doing that. A lot of people who lived in the

646
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: area at the time were involved in racing, and I

647
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 2: used to cover racing and that's when I got back there. Oh,

648
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 2: it was a good blow. He just had a mad.

649
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.

650
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: Up next, I talk with former detective Alan Arthur, who

651
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: shares some more about the crime scene, his interactions with

652
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: Clifford Bufflomew, and the reasoning behind the sentence he received. Alan,

653
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: where were you at in your life and your career

654
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one.

655
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 3: We're living in Adelaide and there was a peaceful sort

656
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 3: of life, except that I used to get called out

657
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 3: to go to homicide and other violent crimes from time

658
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: to time. Not the only one member of the homicids squad,

659
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 3: but it happened regularly. By the way, how.

660
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 1: Long had you been a detective at.

661
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 3: That point, seven years? And I was in my third

662
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 3: year in the homicide squad, so you.

663
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: Were fairly experienced when it came to being on the

664
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: scene of really horrible murders and grizzly crimes.

665
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 3: Well, that's true. And I've been to a half a

666
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 3: dozen or so murders in the three years seeding the

667
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 3: Hope Forest murders, so it wasn't a new event. But

668
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: I must say the size of the numbers of victims

669
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 3: was far more than I've ever seen before.

670
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 1: Do you remember when you first got the call asking

671
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: you to attend the farming Forest?

672
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 3: We do take me down there. The detective Sergeant Giles

673
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: was the desk sergeant and he had only just come

674
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 3: on on the early hours of the morning for the

675
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: morning ship. His job was to coordinate work and attending

676
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 3: members allocate them work today and he rang me for memory.

677
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 3: It was still dark and he said, we've got a

678
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 3: job on. We've got ten people dead a place called

679
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 3: Hope Poests in the Adelaide Hills. We'll pick you up

680
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 3: and convey you to headquarters and from there you will

681
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 3: be off to Hope Forests.

682
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: And when you arrived the farm, what was that like?

683
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: What did you first see what was going on?

684
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 3: On arrival? Uniform police were there, and I think the

685
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 3: doctor that came with the local uniform police officer I

686
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 3: was there, that's from memory. But outside there was the

687
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 3: body of a woman and she was dead and had

688
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 3: a gunshop into her head. And then walked inside and

689
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 3: it was just a short distance inside the back door

690
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 3: to where the kitchen was located, and sitting at the

691
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 3: kitchen having what I remember was a beer, was a

692
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 3: successful following you the owner of the house or the

693
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 3: renter of the house, and the relative of the woman

694
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: lying dead outside. As I came into the kitchen, I

695
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 3: just introduced myself and told him I'd be talking to

696
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 3: him shortly. He continued with his glass of beer. A

697
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 3: uniform police officer was standing not too far away, keeping

698
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 3: a very close eye on him, and so I didn't

699
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 3: inspect that the crime scene and found bodies scattered throughout

700
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,959
Speaker 3: the house. There were nine bodies and including the pass

701
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 3: his way. His wife was lying on her back in

702
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 3: the main bedroom with the gunshot winning of the head.

703
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 3: They all had gunshot with the head and including a

704
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: two year old baby in a cot, which was related

705
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 3: to the woman lying outside.

706
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: That would have been winners, that was outside.

707
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 3: That's right.

708
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: What kind of state was Clifford in? Was he distressed?

709
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 2: Was he?

710
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: Did he say anything to you?

711
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 3: When I spoke to him, he spoke pleasantly, so to speak.

712
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 3: He didn't show any signs of distraught, cool, calm, and collected.

713
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 3: That's the only way I can describe him having just

714
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 3: killed ten people, which surprised me to a point. But

715
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 3: once I got to know him doing my questioning of him,

716
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 3: it was easy to understand that he just was able

717
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: to do things and not get too flushed about it.

718
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: Why do you say that? Why was he that kind

719
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: of personality?

720
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 3: I don't know what was behind his personality, but he

721
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 3: was a slaughterman by occupation, and I mean that sort

722
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 3: of fits him with what he did at the house,

723
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 3: by the way, But he seemed cool and collective. He

724
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 3: was never flustered, not during the entire interview with him,

725
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: where he made full of admissions, clear admissions about what

726
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 3: he did, the execution of his whole family and extended

727
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 3: family members. Just a very cool customer and didn't try

728
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 3: to hide anything.

729
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: You've described him as being the most hateful man you knew.

730
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: Do you stand by that?

731
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 3: I can never forgive him. Never. No, it's unforgivable what

732
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 3: he did when it came to children. I mean, a

733
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 3: two year old baby and a cop puts the gun

734
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 3: to its head and kills I mean, goodness, grace to me,

735
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 3: it's not normal, but it was for him.

736
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: You were the one that actually arrested him at the scene,

737
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: won't you.

738
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 3: I am, how did.

739
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:46,240
Speaker 1: The crime scene, seeing what he had done to those children,

740
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: to his wife, to his sister in law, how did

741
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: it affect you seeing all of that?

742
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 3: Well, I'm looking at all the photographs now, are you?

743
00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 3: And I mean it's just a despicable situation. You've got

744
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 3: a wife lying on her back in the main bedroom,

745
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 3: shot in the head, got a four year old girl

746
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 3: in a bed alongside her, shot in the head. They're

747
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 3: all gunshot went into the head. You've got in the

748
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 3: hallway two teenage girls who woke up to the commotion

749
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 3: and he gunned them down, all shot in the head.

750
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 2: A boy.

751
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 3: Also woke up. He's lying in the passage, gunshot went

752
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 3: into the head. You've got the young baby in the

753
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 3: cot and another young boy in a bed alongside the

754
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 3: all shot in the head, and the nineteen year old son.

755
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 3: He woke and tried to intervene, but was bloodgeoned with

756
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 3: a mallet, and some of the other victims were belted

757
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 3: with a mallet as well. But the nineteen year old son,

758
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 3: having been built with a mallet, went back to his bed,

759
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 3: and of course he too was in shot in the head,

760
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 3: as they all were and winners.

761
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: She was shot outside. Did he suggest that she was

762
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: trying to run?

763
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 3: Absolutely? She It was clear that she had tried to

764
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 3: get out of the house. Who pursued her with the

765
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 3: mallet and bashed her in the head till she was

766
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 3: apparently unconscious or certainly stune, very stunned, And then he

767
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 3: went back, got his rifle and shot her in the head.

768
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: It's just shocking to hear, isn't it? The details of

769
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: what he.

770
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 3: Did well, it is I had one wish for his

771
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: soul that he rotsen Hill.

772
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: I can see why.

773
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 3: I have no people as men whatsoever. Never I mean,

774
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 3: it's now what fifty four years since since these murders occurred,

775
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 3: countillion Aire, They're still quite fresh in my mind, and

776
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 3: they were persistent till I passed all. I suppose.

777
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: The thing that I think about when I imagine Buffalo you

778
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: going on this rampage is that it's not like it

779
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: was happening within a few minutes. It happened over nearly

780
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: the course of an hour, So that gives a lot

781
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: of time and space to reconsider, to talk to his

782
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: victims as.

783
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 3: He did it. Yes, that's right, But the incentive for

784
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 3: him was his intent to kill his Why and whether

785
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 3: that was his only wish before he actually shot her,

786
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 3: just to kill her. I don't wear that that's what

787
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 3: he intended to do, but he got carried away. I

788
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 3: think he had an intent to do more killings than

789
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 3: justice well, and the only reason I say that because

790
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 3: intentionally he went he had to reload his single shot

791
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 3: forty two rifle each time. He had to have access

792
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: to rounds of ammunition nearby. He had to unlock the breach,

793
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 3: put the bulletin physically one hand, close the breach, pull

794
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 3: the trigger, and kill. Unlocked the breach, discharged an expended

795
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 3: round busiically by hand, put in a pressu round into

796
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 3: the breach, close the breach, and pull the trigger. He

797
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 3: had to do that ten times, there's just no there

798
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 3: was nothing happened automatically.

799
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: When he was initially charged or went to trial. He

800
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 1: was only tried for the murder of his wife, not

801
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 1: the rest of the children. How did you feel about that, Well.

802
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 3: That was mine. I charged him with that. It was

803
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: There's a couple of reasons for it. One reason is

804
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 3: that there was ample evidence of intent to kill his wife,

805
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 3: ample evidence. There was ample evidence to show that he

806
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 3: went on to kill, to actively kill his family, but

807
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 3: to have previous intent, there might have been some doubt

808
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,479
Speaker 3: that these are just sort of reactionary activities that took

809
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 3: place following the intentional killing. So I only charged him

810
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 3: with the one that we had the most evidence about,

811
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 3: because he respected whether you're charged him at ten, he's

812
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 3: only going to get got to suit at the same

813
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 3: time in jail. And so that was the one that

814
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 3: the proof was in abundance, whereas the others there might

815
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 3: have been excuses for rage and mental problems and so forth.

816
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 3: And he was admitting through to having wanting to murder

817
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 3: his wife.

818
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: And did you think it wasn't worth the risk of

819
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 1: trying to go for the other nine charges.

820
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 3: Well, the fact of life is the courts took him

821
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 3: too account those matters. He didn't necessarily have to charged

822
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 3: him with ten murders. The circumstances of him committing the

823
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 3: murder upon his wife included all the acts that he

824
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 3: did to kill the others as well, so there wasn't

825
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 3: necessary for him to be charged with ten counts of murder,

826
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 3: although some people within the police thought I should have

827
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 3: charged him with more, but I wanted to make sure

828
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 3: I got him convicted of murder where the evidence was

829
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 3: most pronounced, that the intent was clear, whereas he might

830
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: have used the defense of emotions and you know, exaggerated

831
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 3: behavior and the lack of intent, whereas with his killing

832
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 3: of his wife it was just total intent.

833
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: As much as I know of the justice system nowadays,

834
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: if he was to be charged now with all ten murders,

835
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: it would be a different story to back then he

836
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: would get more time.

837
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 3: Now, I don't know whether he would really really I

838
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 3: don't know. I'm not quite sure that's so with the

839
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 3: parole system the way it is these days. But I

840
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 3: read in the paper there are people walk away after

841
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 3: a very short times having committed some pretty atrocious crimes.

842
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 3: I mean, he was sentenced to death yeah, and that

843
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 3: in it sort of was a big deal in those days,

844
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 3: although governments were commuting death sentenced to life imprisonment. But

845
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 3: when you got when the sentence came out, I can

846
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 3: tell you now that the atmosphere in the court was

847
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 3: pretty high. You know, when the judge reads out of

848
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 3: death sence, it was really something.

849
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: When the government came in and decided to overturn and

850
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,879
Speaker 1: abolish the death penalty in Australia, did you ever think

851
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 1: that that could mean that he would be released? Was

852
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: that a fear of yours?

853
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 3: Well, the answer is there is yes, because it hasn't

854
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 3: been a practice for decades where someone has been kept

855
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 3: in jail for fifty years, for forty years, and with

856
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 3: the parole wars system as it was back in the seventies,

857
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 3: as I knew it, I mean, people were being let

858
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 3: out after after shorter periods, and perhaps I thought they

859
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 3: should have had As far as barth Only was concerned,

860
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 3: I would have seen him stay there for twenty five years.

861
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 3: In fact, if they had executed the death parney, I

862
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 3: wouldn't have I would have gone had to be in

863
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 3: the pub by myself, you know. It's just it's just

864
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 3: my personal attitude it was at the time. It still is.

865
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 3: People don't agree with death penalties anymore. But in my mind,

866
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 3: after a number of homocid that I've been to and

867
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 3: intent shown by the killers, I just think there's room

868
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 3: to put some of these killers to waste.

869
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: So he ended up getting out after about eight years.

870
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: Do you remember finding out about that? How did you feel?

871
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 3: I can't really tell you in words because it would

872
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 3: be rude. Yeah, yeah, it's I got a call from

873
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 3: him when he was He spent eight years in jail.

874
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 3: Some years during that time, I got a call from

875
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 3: the Atler Labor Prison that he wanted a pair of

876
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 3: his shoes footwear returned to him. So by appointment and

877
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 3: I went to the Outler with his shoes and I

878
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 3: was shown to a room and a table and two chairs.

879
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 3: He sat on one so and I sat on the other.

880
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 3: A prison officers stood at the background keeping nyeing things.

881
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:58,959
Speaker 3: And I said, I believe it was what you're after.

882
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 3: There was no nice old I just choose him coolly.

883
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 3: I might have said, how you going anyway, said I

884
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 3: believe this is what you after. He said yes. I said, okay, here,

885
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 3: I like to do the sign for these he signed

886
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 3: for them, and then he said, I suppose you want

887
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 3: to know why I wanted a cooler wife. And I said,

888
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 3: I know all I need to know about you and

889
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 3: none of us. Good thank you very much, goodbye, And

890
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 3: I left him sitting. He was sort of coming into

891
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 3: the chair looking for a nice, friendly chat. I cut

892
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 3: him short.

893
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: What sounds like he wanted to kind of confess his

894
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:40,959
Speaker 1: but you just didn't give him the chance. You didn't

895
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: want to, you didn't want to hear it.

896
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 3: Well, I knew all I needed to know, as I

897
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 3: told him, I knew all I needed to know, and

898
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 3: so did the court.

899
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: Once he was released. Eventually, he you know, moved states,

900
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: went by a different name, kind of just blended into

901
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 1: Australian society, and we didn't really hear about him for

902
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: a very long time until a journalist named Craig came knocking.

903
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: Had you heard about him before Craig uncovered his new life.

904
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 3: Well, I knew he had changed his name and he'd

905
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 3: moved to Victoria. I knew that he had partnered with

906
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 3: a woman who had several children, and a number of

907
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 3: those children were of or about the age of his

908
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 3: own children.

909
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: That he'd killed and I guess I do know how

910
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 1: that made you feel, but please put it into words.

911
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: Knowing that he had a second chance at life with

912
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: seven kids as well, the same amount that he murdered.

913
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 3: Look hates a terrible wood. It's a terrible experience. I

914
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 3: won't admit to hating him, but what I do wish

915
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 3: is that the courts I took a stronger approach to

916
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 3: his future. Whether I left him in JA for thirty

917
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 3: years or if they'd carried out the death penality. Either

918
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 3: way it would have been better than what the outcome was.

919
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 3: As far as I'm the concerned, justice wasn't done properly.

920
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: Craig mentioned that those crime scene photos that you said

921
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: you've got in front of you, you can't bear to

922
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: get rid of them? Why is that?

923
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 2: No?

924
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 3: I can't. I've got them on my lap at the moment.

925
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 3: I've had a look at them this morning.

926
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 2: No.

927
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 3: Well, I've got to admit I've got most of the

928
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 3: investigations that I've involved in a seventy one homicides. I

929
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 3: had to retain the library with photographs at my age

930
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 3: of eighty five coming up, I've got to think what

931
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 3: I'm going to do with them.

932
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: I believes them buying around the poor soul to find.

933
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 3: I think the police historical Society might be the place

934
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 3: for them to go and then they can decide whether

935
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 3: they want to shred them, burn them or hang on

936
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 3: to them. But they are of historical value. If you've

937
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 3: got a crime scene nine like mine, you.

938
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: Know, Alan, why don't you think more Australians know about

939
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: these murders. About Buffalomew, he seems to have kind of

940
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: slipped through the cracks in terms of you know, we

941
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 1: all know who Ivan Malatt is. We all know all

942
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 1: these murderers through time, but I don't think many people

943
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: know Clifford Buffalomew's name or Clifford Palmer.

944
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 3: No, it's I mean it's come up over the years.

945
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 3: Well it's fifty four years since the murder. It's come up.

946
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 3: I've been contracted a few times over the years. But

947
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 3: I mean, you've got to compare this with the other

948
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 3: murders that have occurred in South Australia, which are horrendous

949
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 3: as well and in the state, and they compete the

950
00:54:55,000 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 3: stories from overseas. But I think people should remin be

951
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 3: reminded from time to time about what can happen in

952
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 3: our state and our city country towns, and to be

953
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 3: mindful of people with whom you communicate with.

954
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: Craig, We've heard from former detective Alan Arthur. But to close,

955
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,280
Speaker 1: I'd like to ask you, do you think that someone

956
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: could reinvent themselves to this extent today? Say they committed

957
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: a crime, they're given a new identity. Could they get

958
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: away with it in twenty twenty five?

959
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 2: Not if they committed a crime like this, Absolutely not,

960
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: that's the difference. Yes, if you committed even a small

961
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 2: murder that's not that publicized, maybe you could reinvent yourself,

962
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 2: become a different person and there's no real trace of

963
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: what you've done. But the murder of this magnitude, no way.

964
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 2: The publicity would be enormous today. Wherever you went, you'd

965
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 2: be found, you'd have to leave the country.

966
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 1: I think I would argue that even if you committed

967
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 1: murder and it wasn't overly publicized, we now have access

968
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: to the databases, the criminal databases, the court databases, so

969
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 1: we can google people's names. We can find things out

970
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: on social media that we couldn't back then.

971
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 2: Quite true, you had to go to a public library,

972
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 2: and so it's through Dusty documents. If you're lucky to

973
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 2: find anything back then, you were a little hope. So yes,

974
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 2: we have van creable access these days, I don't think

975
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 2: it'd be possible.

976
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: Thanks to Craig and Alan for helping us to tell

977
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: this story. If you couldn't turn off this episode and

978
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: liked hearing from two voices, let us know. Send us

979
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: an email at true Crime at mamamea dot com dot au,

980
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:51,839
Speaker 1: or use the link in our show notes to send

981
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 1: us a voice note. True Crime Conversations is a Muma

982
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 1: mea podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma Bath and

983
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: Talie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so

984
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: much for listening. I'll be back next week with another

985
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: true Crime Conversation.

986
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 3: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

987
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 3: waters that this podcast was recorded on