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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on Hi. I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma

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Speaker 1: MIA's twice daily news podcast, The Quikie. Today we break

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Speaker 1: down a very royal visit for Donald Trump and find

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Speaker 1: out whether the Internet is in its final death throws.

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Speaker 1: But before we get there, here's the letters from the

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Speaker 1: Cookie Newsroom for Friday, September nineteen. Despite hundreds of recorded instances,

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Speaker 1: the new domestic violence offensive coercive control has only resulted

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Speaker 1: in a handful of charges since it was first criminalized.

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Speaker 1: New South Wales was the first Australian jurisdiction to make

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Speaker 1: coercive control an offense when landmark legislation passed state parliament

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. The laws apply when a person

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Speaker 1: uses abusive behaviors to a current or former intimate partner

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Speaker 1: with the intent of controlling or coercing them. Since then,

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Speaker 1: New South Wales police have recorded two hundred and ninety

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Speaker 1: seven incidents of coercive control, but laid charges on only

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Speaker 1: nine occasions, According to a report released on Friday by

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Speaker 1: the New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research.

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Speaker 1: Victim survivors are reportedly finding it difficult to meet the

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Speaker 1: high legal threshold for the charge, and because the law

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Speaker 1: doesn't apply to behavior pre twenty twenty four, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to establish a pattern of coercive control only looking at

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Speaker 1: the year since it came into effect. While three coercive

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Speaker 1: control charges have been finalized in court, they were withdrawn

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Speaker 1: by the prosecution on two occasions, with the defendant pleading

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Speaker 1: guilty in the third case. According to court documents, controversial

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Speaker 1: radio host Alan Jones didn't confine his alleged sexual abuse

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Speaker 1: to behind closed doors, allegedly assaulting his victims in public.

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Speaker 1: The eighty four year old has been accused of historical

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Speaker 1: sex offenses against eleven people, the youngest of whom was

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Speaker 1: seventeen at the time, over two decades, Facing forty four

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Speaker 1: charges before the case against him underwent a reconfiguration in

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Speaker 1: Downing Center Local Court on Tuesday, Secutor Emma Curran withdrew

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Speaker 1: more than a dozen charges and amended others, leaving the

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Speaker 1: broadcaster on twenty five charges of indecent assault and two

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Speaker 1: of sexual touching against nine people. Prosecutors did not explain

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Speaker 1: why the charges relating to two of the alleged victims

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Speaker 1: were no longer being pursued. According to the court documents,

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Speaker 1: Jones allegedly groped two complainants at restaurants in Sydney and Kayama.

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Speaker 1: Four were allegedly and decently assaulted by Jones during events,

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Speaker 1: and a fifth claimed he was groped during a performance

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Speaker 1: at the Sydney Opera House. He's also accused of indecently

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Speaker 1: assaulting two complainants while they were driving him home. Jones

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Speaker 1: formally pleaded not guilty to all charges, with the matter

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Speaker 1: set to proceed to a local court hearing in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six. Britney Higgins is appealing elements of her costly

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Speaker 1: defamation battle lost to her former boss, Linda Reynolds. Reynolds

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Speaker 1: sued Miss Higgins over a series of social media posts

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Speaker 1: the ex Liberal senator believe damaged her reputation. The Western

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Speaker 1: Australian Supreme Court in August found the post's word defamatory

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Speaker 1: and awarded damages of three hundred and fifteen thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: plus twenty six thousand, one hundred and nine dollars in interest.

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Speaker 1: Miss Higgins was also ordered to pay eighty percent of

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Speaker 1: Miss Reynolds's legal costs, which are yet to be determined.

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Speaker 1: The former political staffer is appealing the damages award and

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Speaker 1: the costs order, according to documents filed in the WA

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Speaker 1: Court of Appeal yesterday. She is also seeking to challenge

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Speaker 1: the finding that she breached a twenty twenty one deed

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Speaker 1: of settlement between the pair with an Instagram post referring

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Speaker 1: to her being a defamation victim. American pop Princess Chaperon

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Speaker 1: will headline the Laneway Festival with a six state tour

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Speaker 1: down Under. Laneway's return in February will include the festival

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Speaker 1: heading to the Gold Coast for the first time, as

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Speaker 1: well as dates in Auckland, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth,

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Speaker 1: as well as Rone. The festival slate features British indie

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Speaker 1: rockers Will Fallas and Wet Leg along with US outfit Mountjoy.

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Speaker 1: A first release pre sale ticket to Laneway will set

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Speaker 1: punters back two hundred and twenty nine dollars, with later

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Speaker 1: releases increasingly expensive and VIP tickets priced at three hundred

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Speaker 1: and sixty dollars. That's What's Happening in the World Today.

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Speaker 1: Next Donald Trump's very royal visit. This week, Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: became just the second world leader to ever be invited

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Speaker 1: back for a second state visit to the UK. As

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Speaker 1: his helicopter touched down on the grounds of Windsor Castle,

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Speaker 1: he was met by the Prince and Princess of Wales themselves,

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Speaker 1: before being whisked off to see King Charles and Queen

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Speaker 1: Camilla ride in a royal carriage inspect the troops, be

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Speaker 1: reminded of the US in England's long history, reading a

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Speaker 1: letter from Abraham Lincoln to Queen Victoria, and be entertained

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Speaker 1: at a state dinner, sitting at a table that takes

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Speaker 1: five days to set with its four thousand pieces of dinnerware.

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Speaker 1: But underneath the pomp and ceremony lies the politics. The

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Speaker 1: UK now exists in a world where the US President

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Speaker 1: has become an agent of chaos, upending long standing trade deals,

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Speaker 1: which has left many countries Australia included, scrambling to find

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Speaker 1: a waiting go get themselves exempt from the harsh tariffs

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Speaker 1: imposed by the Trump administration. Trump will today head to Checkers,

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Speaker 1: the estate of the British PM, where Kirs Stamer will

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Speaker 1: take him on a tour of the Winston Churchill Archive

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Speaker 1: before a bilateral meeting, after which Trump will meet with

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Speaker 1: business leaders, including representatives of companies like Rolls, Royce and

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Speaker 1: Microsoft Milania. Trump's wife will stay at Windsor Castle, where

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Speaker 1: Camilla will show her around Queen Mary's Dollhouse and the

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Speaker 1: Royal Library before she too heads to Checkers, where she

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Speaker 1: and her husband will fly out of back to the US.

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Speaker 1: So is this visit handering to Trump's known love of

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Speaker 1: the royal fanfare more a way to make trade dials happen?

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Speaker 1: To unpack this is Amelia Lester, mma Mere's US correspondent. So, Amelia,

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Speaker 1: we have a vague understanding of why the UK is

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Speaker 1: putting on such a show for Donald Trump. But what

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Speaker 1: if anything, is Donald Trump getting out of this royal visit.

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Speaker 2: So there are two reasons why he's making this visit.

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Speaker 2: The first is, as with all of his state visits,

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Speaker 2: what he's looking for or are ways to get other

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Speaker 2: countries to invest in the US private sector. That's what

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Speaker 2: he sees his job as president as to make deals

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Speaker 2: to bring money into the US private sector. So already

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Speaker 2: he's gotten a British pharmaceutical group to say that it's

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Speaker 2: investing thirty billion dollars in the US over the next

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Speaker 2: five years. These are the kinds of deals that he

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Speaker 2: wants to make when he goes abroad, which is, by

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Speaker 2: the way, very different to previous presidents who saw these

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Speaker 2: state visits as an opportunity to build bilateral ties, to

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Speaker 2: talk about security alliances. Trump doesn't see any of that

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Speaker 2: as important. He sees the US as going it alone

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Speaker 2: in the world and trying to procure as much money

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Speaker 2: as possible for US companies. So that's the first thing.

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Speaker 2: The second thing is he's obsessed with the royals. And

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Speaker 2: this goes back a long way. His mother was Scottish.

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Speaker 2: He talked in the Art of the Deal about how

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Speaker 2: she loved the British royal family. He remembers watching Princess

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Speaker 2: Diana and Prince Charles's wedding back in nineteen eighty three

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Speaker 2: with her. He says that he got his sense of

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Speaker 2: showmanship from her, her love of glamour, and that came

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Speaker 2: from her idea of royalty. And We've got lots of

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Speaker 2: other examples from people around him that he's always been

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Speaker 2: obsessed with them. So, for instance, you might remember Trump's

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Speaker 2: former National Security Aid Fiona Hill, who was advising him

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Speaker 2: on Russia in his first term. She wrote in her

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Speaker 2: book that he spoke often about his mother's admiration of

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Speaker 2: the royal family. He says that when he met Queen

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth in his first term. She says that he was

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Speaker 2: obsessed with it because it showed that he had made

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Speaker 2: it in life. That was really a sign that he'd

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Speaker 2: made it. He offered Charles a free membership of mar

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Speaker 2: A Lago back in the day. He did not accept it,

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Speaker 2: and he tried to gin up interest in New York's

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Speaker 2: Trump Tower when it was first built in the eighties

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Speaker 2: by saying that Prince Charles and Princess Diana had wanted

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Speaker 2: to buy an apartment there.

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Speaker 1: That is not true, right, So with that in mind,

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Speaker 1: obviously the royal family in the British government understands he

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Speaker 1: has that love of royalty. Is then taking that and

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Speaker 1: pandering to that helpful because are other countries doing this?

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Speaker 1: Are they seeing more favorable results trade to books, for example,

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Speaker 1: tariff levels? Are we seeing that that real shining a

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Speaker 1: light on him like he is who he thinks he is?

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Speaker 2: Is that helpful? We have a lot of data about

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Speaker 2: what's working for Trump because the tariff league table basically

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Speaker 2: shows you which countries were in his good graces and

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Speaker 2: which countries were not. So the interesting shift that we've

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Speaker 2: observed between the first term and the second term is

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Speaker 2: that in the first term, it was understood that flattery

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Speaker 2: was how you got what you wanted. So the cardinal

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Speaker 2: example of this is then Japanese Prime ministertionz or Ahbe

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Speaker 2: talked about how great Trump was as a golfer, never

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Speaker 2: stopped talking about it, and Japan made a lot of

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Speaker 2: inroads with the US, and that first term that can

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Speaker 2: be really attributed to Abe's charm offensive on Trump. But

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Speaker 2: what we've seen in the second term is that flattery

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Speaker 2: is not necessarily the silver bullet that it once was.

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Speaker 2: And the way we see this is in the example

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Speaker 2: of Pakistan and India and how they fared in tariffs.

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Speaker 2: Pakistan got nineteen percent tariffs, which is pretty low given

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Speaker 2: that ten percent was the baseline. India has been slapped

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Speaker 2: with fifty percent tariffs. That's despite the fact that President

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Speaker 2: Modi of India has done everything he can to ingratiate

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Speaker 2: himself with Trump, like outright flattery, visits lots of admiration,

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Speaker 2: and he didn't really get anything out of all of that.

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Speaker 2: So things have gotten a little bit more complicated, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's in part because Trump is not getting

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Speaker 2: any younger. He survived multiple assassination attempts, and I think

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Speaker 2: he's more concern with his legacy now rather than people

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Speaker 2: flattering him. So it's gotten a little more complicated. The

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Speaker 2: other thing that I think is interesting to note with

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Speaker 2: the tariffs is that Australia got out arguably the best

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Speaker 2: of anyone in the world.

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Speaker 1: He didn't do too badly.

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Speaker 2: No, Australia got the baseline tariff of ten percent, and

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Speaker 2: what I've noticed about that is that I think Australia

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Speaker 2: got that because he wasn't thinking about Australia. My own

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Speaker 2: personal theory about what's working with Trump in this term

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Speaker 2: is countries that stay off his radar, that he doesn't

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Speaker 2: fixate on tend to do better. Pakistan didn't really do

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Speaker 2: anything with Trump and got a much lower tariff rate

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Speaker 2: than India that sort of really tried to ingratiate themselves

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Speaker 2: with him. So I do I wonder if putting yourself

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Speaker 2: on Trump's radar in this second term is that a

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Speaker 2: good thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, are we now on his radar because

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Speaker 1: he yelled at the journalist at the White House.

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Speaker 3: In my opinion, you are hurting Australia very much right

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Speaker 3: now now they want to get along with me.

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Speaker 2: I think arguably that probably wasn't great for Australia, to

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Speaker 2: be honest, because he did say I'm about to meet

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Speaker 2: with your leader. And I just wonder if this is

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Speaker 2: the way things are working for him this term. If

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Speaker 2: he starts thinking about you, that's when you're in trouble.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Just finally, I'd like to ask you about the

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Speaker 1: very strategic decision to keep Donald Trump away from London itself,

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Speaker 1: because he's gone to Windsor Castle, Windsor Castle to Checkers,

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Speaker 1: which is the British Prime Minister's estate, and then he's

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Speaker 1: going to fly straight back to the US from there.

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Speaker 1: There's obviously been a lot of protest happening in London,

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Speaker 1: many people taking to the streets. We also saw people

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Speaker 1: arrested for projecting an image of Donald Trump and Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein up onto one of the walls of the castle itself.

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Speaker 1: And obviously there's been some issues in the UK recently

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Speaker 1: with an ambassador having to be fired over his ties

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Speaker 1: to Jeffrey Epstein. Do you think it's a very smart

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Speaker 1: stratch move for the British government and the Royals to

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Speaker 1: keep him away from the center of all of that

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Speaker 1: in London at the moment.

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Speaker 2: British Prime Minister Kirs Starma must have been so unhappy

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Speaker 2: last week about having to dismiss his ambassador to the US,

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Speaker 2: Peter Mandelson. As you mentioned, he was dismissed because it

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Speaker 2: turned out that he was very close friends with Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 2: We always knew that they were in the same social circle,

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Speaker 2: but some letters came out recently where Mandelson expressed great

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Speaker 2: sympathy with Epstein and said that he hoped that he

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Speaker 2: would be released from prison early. So Starma was left

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Speaker 2: with no option but to fire him. Super embarrassing to

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Speaker 2: have that happen immediately before the State visit. And I

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Speaker 2: do think that this connection of Epstein to the British

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Speaker 2: royal family as well, it's very awkward. So I think

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Speaker 2: keeping him out of London and keeping him away from

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Speaker 2: the protests is a smart move. Trump desperately wants to

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Speaker 2: outrun this story. It doesn't seem like it's going anywhere.

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Speaker 2: There's still a move in the US Congress, including with

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Speaker 2: Representative Massey, who is a Republican, to release more Epstein files.

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Speaker 2: I think he's looking for. The UK trip was a

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Speaker 2: way of getting away from that story, but it's going

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Speaker 2: to follow him that.

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Speaker 1: At the State dinner, King Charles was all pleasant smiles

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Speaker 1: and formalities, but during his address to the dinner guests,

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Speaker 1: he spoke of the US and UK's long standing security

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Speaker 1: alliance and that the UK and its allies stand together

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Speaker 1: in support of Ukraine. He also referenced the Orcast submarine

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Speaker 1: partnership with Australia, saying it's set the benchmark for innovative

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Speaker 1: and vital collaboration. This is what is referred to as

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Speaker 1: Tiara diplomacy. After they catch up at Checkers too, Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump and UK PM kir Starmer held a press conference

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Speaker 1: in which they couldn't have spoken more highly of each other,

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Speaker 1: and it does seem Trump was very pleased at being

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the UK for the second time.

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Speaker 3: Melaney and I are forever thankful to his Majesty King

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Speaker 3: Charles the Third and her Majesty Queen Camilla had a

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Speaker 3: fantastic evening last night, but the exquisite honor of a

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Speaker 3: second official state visit, the first ever. That's your first

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Speaker 3: time it's ever been done.

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Speaker 2: Was you know?

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Speaker 3: It really was an honor, such great history, and to

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Speaker 3: think it's a first, it's always nice, ever first, But

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Speaker 3: the ties between our countries are priceless, and it's really

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Speaker 3: an inheritance. It's beautiful inheritance. Today we're making those ties

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Speaker 3: closer than ever before. We've done some things that financially

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Speaker 3: agreed for both countries.

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Speaker 1: Now have you heard about the dead Internet theory? The

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Speaker 1: creator of open AI, Sam Oltman, is starting to think

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Speaker 1: it might actually be right. Hilario Brophy has more.

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Speaker 4: Thanks Claire, The Internet is dum Sorry. I think I

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Speaker 4: just glitched out weird fembot style there, or maybe that

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Speaker 4: was the Internet on the fritz, and that theory might

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Speaker 4: be more real than you think. It's called the Dead

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Speaker 4: Internet theory. It started as a relatively fringe idea, and

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Speaker 4: then it hit the mainstream in twenty well before AI

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Speaker 4: became an hit topic. Of course. Now in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 4: it's back in the headlines after a very famous tech

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Speaker 4: bro gave it the thumbs up this month. It's the

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Speaker 4: idea that our online spaces once alive with human, messy

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Speaker 4: chaos are now overrun by AI generated content bots and

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Speaker 4: click farms churning out posts that look real but a

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Speaker 4: fakef Tech expert Mark Peshi reckons the theory is very

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Speaker 4: real unlike the Internet right now.

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Speaker 5: Maybe the Internet's not dead in the sense that it died,

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Speaker 5: but it got replaced by a robot. The amount of

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Speaker 5: Internet that we can think of is genuinely human is

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Speaker 5: actually kind of restricted these days. Some websites, particularly Reddit

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Speaker 5: and Wikipedia, have worked really, really really hard to make

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Speaker 5: sure that they're just purely human and the conversations on

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Speaker 5: there are purely human, but it takes a lot of work.

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Speaker 5: Many other places, so ex Twitter, Facebook, their social sites,

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Speaker 5: are really being overrun by just automated stuff, turning out

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Speaker 5: what we would call slop. You'd almost think of it

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Speaker 5: as a new phenomenon. We're actually starting to see a

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Speaker 5: lot of it now in short form videos. There's a

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Speaker 5: really famous video of rabbits bouncing on a trampoline that

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Speaker 5: I think probably everyone on the Internet has seen, and everyone, oh, look,

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Speaker 5: how cute, and of course it turns out it was

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Speaker 5: entirely computer generated. There's another one about a kangaroo trying

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Speaker 5: to abort a flight, and all of these different things

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Speaker 5: that we think are really cute are actually just designed

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Speaker 5: to drag our attention and hold it. So part of

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Speaker 5: what the dead Internet is really good at is getting

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Speaker 5: its hooks in us by showing us something that we're

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Speaker 5: really interested in to just keep us watching.

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Speaker 4: So why do these bots want our attention so badly?

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Speaker 5: Well, for some of these platforms, they have a political

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Speaker 5: message they're trying to get across. To some of these platforms,

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Speaker 5: they're just monetizing your eyeballs. The longer that you look,

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Speaker 5: the more likely you are to see an ad or

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Speaker 5: whatever it might be. And so attention has become the

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Speaker 5: commodity now, and because there are so many websites that

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Speaker 5: demand our attention, In fact, attention is actually in short supply.

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Speaker 5: People cannot spend more hours of the day staring at

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Speaker 5: their smartphones. We have run out of spare hours, and

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Speaker 5: so part of what we're seeing of the dead Internet

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Speaker 5: is these bots fighting other bots to get rights to

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Speaker 5: use your eyes to make money off you.

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Speaker 4: And even the guy behind the most powerful AI system

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Speaker 4: is taking this seriously. The CEO of open Ai, of course,

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Speaker 4: a bloke behind it chat GPT Sam Altman recently admitted

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Speaker 4: he's starting to think the theory might actually be real.

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Speaker 4: He posted on x earlier this month.

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Speaker 1: I never took the dead Internet theory that seriously, but

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Speaker 1: it seems like there are a lot of LM run

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Speaker 1: Twitter accounts now.

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Speaker 5: An LLM account is really one that is wired directly

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Speaker 5: into chat GPT. In the same way that you would

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Speaker 5: be having a conversation with chat GPT back and forth,

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Speaker 5: the LLM account is having a conversation across its Twitter followers,

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Speaker 5: back and forth.

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Speaker 4: So why is this all a problem?

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Speaker 5: It is a bad thing if you're looking for authentic

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Speaker 5: human opinions and points of view, if you're out on

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Speaker 5: social media because you want to understand how other people

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Speaker 5: are thinking and believing, and in fact all you're seeing

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Speaker 5: are bots that are designed to change how you're thinking

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Speaker 5: and believing.

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Speaker 4: We have a problem, and what do we do about it?

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Speaker 4: Experts have said so far they want tighter rules and

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Speaker 4: regulations on platforms, labels on AI generated posts, and of course,

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Speaker 4: better digital literacy so we can spot the fakes.

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Speaker 5: AI use always needs to be completely transparent. When you're

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Speaker 5: seeing an AI generated image or video or even a tweet,

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Speaker 5: it needs to be labeled as AI generated, and if

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Speaker 5: someone is caught out using AI generated content and hasn't

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Speaker 5: labeled it, they need to be banned. If you want

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Speaker 5: a spotifyic account, first off, take a look at the

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Speaker 5: history of the account. If it's always talking about one

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Speaker 5: subject all the time, probably a bot. If it's always

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Speaker 5: using the same terms or same stories, again, probably a bot.

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Speaker 5: Because people are generally all over the map when they

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Speaker 5: use social media, so something it's two firm, probably a bot.

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Speaker 5: Take a look at how long ago the account was created,

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Speaker 5: take a look at the number of followers. All of

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Speaker 5: those things are ways of telling you whether this is

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Speaker 5: real or not. And then just take a look at

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Speaker 5: what it's said over a period of time. How does

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Speaker 5: it feel, How does it sit with you. I think

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Speaker 5: it's really important for us to take the lessons that work.

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Speaker 5: Why does Wikipedia work because there's a whole lot of

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Speaker 5: people working really hard. Why does Reddit work because there

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Speaker 5: are a whole lot of moderators working really hard. We

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Speaker 5: can't just sign the Internet over to machines and expect

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Speaker 5: it's all going to be okay.

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Speaker 4: So the next time you're scrolling and it feels a

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Speaker 4: little bit unreal, trust those human instincts. I'm a Laria

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Speaker 4: Brophy for the Quikie, real human and forever refusing to

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Speaker 4: give the bots the last word.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with

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Speaker 1: us today. The Quiki is produced by me Claire Murphy

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Speaker 1: along with a Lario Brophy, with audio production by Lou

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Speaker 1: Hill