Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on labia majora.
Speaker 3: So majora is the outside, Monora is inside. And you're
Speaker 3: telling me that I'm gonna lose anything.
Speaker 4: When you say outside, do you mean lips or do
Speaker 4: you mean outside flaps and inside flaps?
Speaker 3: I mean outside flaps majora, inside flaps and manora cor.
Speaker 1: And then plus lips are a different thing. What are
Speaker 1: they called?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 1: I don't know?
Speaker 3: You have three sets? No, you have to go to
Speaker 3: the doctr Of.
Speaker 4: Course Mia has more than I'm at top of the labia.
Speaker 3: You're not meant to have three la You're only meant
Speaker 3: to have two anyway.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what
Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Monday, the third of February.
Speaker 2: I am hollywaen right, I'm.
Speaker 1: Mea Friedman and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: And on the show today, the inexcusable harassment of a
Speaker 2: famous Australian woman or a justified public invention, the tabloid
Speaker 2: shaming of Kate Ritchie. Also Where's your Labiagonne? And other
Speaker 2: things menopausal women should shut the hell up about, according
Speaker 2: to a viral column in this weekend's Papers, and Princess
Speaker 2: Catherine's epic act of micro pettiness. But first, Miya has
Speaker 2: an urgent update for us from the Grammy's Red Carpet look.
Speaker 4: I actually think it's incredibly sad and disturbing, which are
Speaker 4: not usually words that you would associate with a red
Speaker 4: carpet at a major awards show. But in case you
Speaker 4: have missed it, Bianker Sensori, who is an Australian architect
Speaker 4: and model. She's thirty years old and is married to
Speaker 4: Kanye West. They met when she was head of architecture
Speaker 4: at Yeasy and I don't think we've spoken about it
Speaker 4: much on the show, but increasingly over the time they've
Speaker 4: been together, he parades her essentially like a naked trophy
Speaker 4: in public, where he is sometimes wearing a mask, sometimes
Speaker 4: he's fully covered, and she's always almost naked or naked.
Speaker 4: They've appeared on The Grammy's Red Carpet and she is
Speaker 4: actually naked. She's wearing this tiny, sheer little thing but
Speaker 4: with nothing on it. You can see full badge, full
Speaker 4: bumful boobs.
Speaker 3: We'll post a picture on the Mummy or out loud
Speaker 3: Instagram so that you can see what we're talking about.
Speaker 3: But when you say she's full, like, do you think
Speaker 3: she's got something kind of see through over the she.
Speaker 4: Does, so it's like, imagine something completely clear, just you
Speaker 4: can see full vadge.
Speaker 1: Oh can you keep she doesn't have pews.
Speaker 2: This is the only picture you're going to see from
Speaker 2: the Grammy's Red Carpets. Stay. We talk a lot about
Speaker 2: the attention economy. That is what's going on here is
Speaker 2: They're like, look, there's a naked lady on the red carpet,
Speaker 2: and I was really upset about it, and then I
Speaker 2: remembered I've already seen her naked so many times. I
Speaker 2: think I know what she had for breakfast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty what's Kanye West wearing next her?
Speaker 4: He's wearing a black T shirt, black pants, he always
Speaker 4: wears that, and sunglasses. They both look pretty miserable. He
Speaker 4: always looks very pouty. His mental health has been said
Speaker 4: to be questionable, but a lot of things about him
Speaker 4: are very questionable, and a lot of people have mental
Speaker 4: health issues and don't behave like Kanye waste.
Speaker 3: You think there's a dress code like an airport lounge.
Speaker 2: Well, there's been a lot of naked red carpets over
Speaker 2: the years. This makes them look quaint, do you remember,
Speaker 2: I think it was Rose McGowan once it turned up
Speaker 2: in just a few tassels and a beaded g stream that.
Speaker 3: Our line was nipples.
Speaker 4: So there are reports that they weren't even invited to
Speaker 4: the Grammys, which Kanye makes a habit of getting on
Speaker 4: stage and doing things when he's not invited. Remember this
Speaker 4: is famously where he went and harassed Taylor Swift and
Speaker 4: got on stage and said that Beyonce should have won.
Speaker 4: Bianco Sensori and Kanye were reportedly asked to leave after
Speaker 4: the red carpet. Well, we know that the more nude
Speaker 4: you are, the more attention you get, right because, as
Speaker 4: Holly said, we're in an attention economy, and they're the
Speaker 4: rules of the red carpet. But there's something very sinister
Speaker 4: about this because she's not there by herself, She's never
Speaker 4: photographed alone. She's always there as his dole doll.
Speaker 1: You know, there are rumors.
Speaker 4: That he locks up her clothes at home, doesn't let
Speaker 4: her wear clothes. It appears to be a very coercive
Speaker 4: and controlling relationship. Of course, we don't know because she
Speaker 4: hasn't said anything. Maybe she really enjoys it. We probably
Speaker 4: won't know until down the track. This is something that
Speaker 4: he did in a slightly different way with Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 4: She was very much mocked for her lack of style.
Speaker 4: She well, like body condresses. The Kardashians didn't really have style.
Speaker 4: And when he got together with her, he quite famously
Speaker 4: started dressing her in, you know, designer clothes, and she
Speaker 4: appeared to be quite complicit in that. And interestingly, since
Speaker 4: they ended their marriage, she's continued to dress in ways
Speaker 4: that aren't dissimilar to that. And what he did is
Speaker 4: sort of transform her into a bit of a fashion
Speaker 4: icon and someone who could then be on the cover
Speaker 4: of Vogue. But this is very different because it's never
Speaker 4: about the clothes, it's about her naked body. Yeah, and
Speaker 4: you might remember when he briefly dated Julia Fox. She
Speaker 4: said that on their date they went out to dinner
Speaker 4: and then he took her to this he wanted to
Speaker 4: throw away all her clothes and then he took her
Speaker 4: to this room where there were lots of clothes to wear.
Speaker 4: So he's clearly a very controlling person, and I just
Speaker 4: I don't want to be condescending and not give her
Speaker 4: agency or power, but I find.
Speaker 1: It very disturbing.
Speaker 4: Of course, there are many other looks on the red
Speaker 4: carpet apart from this, involve actual clothes, that involve actual clothes,
Speaker 4: And of course some people are actually going to get
Speaker 4: awards tonight for things that they have done and songs
Speaker 4: they have sung, rather than.
Speaker 1: Their bodies or their clothes.
Speaker 4: So we will be doing a full Grammys recap tomorrow
Speaker 4: on our Tuesday episode.
Speaker 2: The splash on the front of The Daily Mail on
Speaker 2: Friday was of a woman sitting on the grass in
Speaker 2: a Sydney park, apparently crying as she talks into her phone.
Speaker 2: Her car is idling thereby. Her child is in the
Speaker 2: passenger seat. The report that accompanies the pictures says that
Speaker 2: not long before, she had visited a bottle shop and
Speaker 2: went to pick up her daughter from school. All of
Speaker 2: this is reported in detail. That's confusing unless you know
Speaker 2: the context. The context is that the woman was one
Speaker 2: of Australia's most famous and beloved actors and presenters, Kate
Speaker 2: Ritchie and she won I was most likely being followed
Speaker 2: by a photographer because earlier in the week she had
Speaker 2: delayed returning to her job on breakfast Radio. Now since
Speaker 2: that happened, the story has kept rolling. Over the weekend,
Speaker 2: the Male had pictures of all her team visiting her
Speaker 2: at her home, presumably to decide what they were going
Speaker 2: to say and how they were going to address these images.
Speaker 2: If ever, the Male kept reporting it. The so called
Speaker 2: bombshell bottle shop photos, as they said, were published because
Speaker 2: they know that Kate is a woman who has before
Speaker 2: spoken about her issues with alcohol. Jesse, as we went
Speaker 2: into the studio today, Kate Richie released a statement about
Speaker 2: what's going on with her. What did she say?
Speaker 3: Her statement reads, I struggle with mental health issues at
Speaker 3: times which are deeply personal. This has proven to be
Speaker 3: a bigger challenge than I imagined, so I've decided to take
Speaker 3: a break from the show and the team who I
Speaker 3: love to focus on my health. I want to thank
Speaker 3: all of those who are helping me through this very
Speaker 3: difficult time. I love you. Thank you Noba for being
Speaker 3: there when I need you. This is also a problem
Speaker 3: many other are struggling with. They know what it's like.
Speaker 3: The images of me taken last week show that I
Speaker 3: wasn't okay on that day. My struggle is not helped
Speaker 3: by the relentless stalking of me by the paparazzi. In fact,
Speaker 3: they are making it much worse due to their constant harassment.
Speaker 3: They significantly add pressure and make my recovery that much
Speaker 3: more difficult to those profiting from invading my privacy. A
Speaker 3: simple question, would you treat, say, your sister, mother, or
Speaker 3: daughter the same if they had similar challenges? Please reconsider
Speaker 3: and stop and think of the harm you are inflicting
Speaker 3: and give me the space and privacy I need. Thank
Speaker 3: you to my wonderful family, all the NOVA listeners and
Speaker 3: many others who are sending their love and support. I
Speaker 3: appreciate it more than you can imagine. Thank you, Kate.
Speaker 2: Such a great statement, I think because the thing that's
Speaker 2: interesting about this is the justification for running those kind
Speaker 2: of images, And perhaps the reaction that the male we're
Speaker 2: expecting is that it's a gotcha, like, look at this
Speaker 2: famous woman out of control in public. She clearly hasn't
Speaker 2: dealt with her demons. We know that Kate has been
Speaker 2: fined in twenty twenty two for DUI. She has spoken
Speaker 2: publicly about her struggles with alcohol before. There was another
Speaker 2: incident late last year that never made it to court
Speaker 2: or anything, but the male reported about her in a
Speaker 2: traffic incident at a school. The thing is is that
Speaker 2: the Internet didn't really respond with that kind of glee.
Speaker 2: They mostly showed the kind of empathy that Kate's asking
Speaker 2: for in that statement right.
Speaker 3: In fact, the statement is really telling because she is
Speaker 3: saying the paparazzi are making it worse. And what I
Speaker 3: found over the weekend on TikTok and then Constance Hall,
Speaker 3: who has one point five million followers on Facebook, one
Speaker 3: hundred percent empathy is what I saw. It was like
Speaker 3: we were being baited to shame this woman, and our
Speaker 3: instincts to shame a mother, which are often particularly strong.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw some pushback, and I think it's worth
Speaker 4: pointing out. And you know, obviously we stand our love
Speaker 4: to Kate and to anyone who's going through this.
Speaker 1: And I don't know anyone who.
Speaker 4: Looked at those pictures or that video, and a lot
Speaker 4: of people did and didn't feel a bit sick that
Speaker 4: they were even looking at it, and then didn't feel
Speaker 4: overwhelmingly sad and sorry for her. I think, though, there
Speaker 4: are two things that complicate this a little bit that
Speaker 4: some people were talking about, and that is that she
Speaker 4: was driving with her child in the car, and that
Speaker 4: she was on a public road, and we don't know
Speaker 4: whether she was affected by substances, but as she says herself,
Speaker 4: she was clearly distressed and not in good shape, and
Speaker 4: she stumbled as she went to get in the car.
Speaker 4: And some people have said, why didn't the photographers intervene?
Speaker 4: Why didn't they either prevent her from getting in the car.
Speaker 4: Why didn't they see if she was okay? Why didn't
Speaker 4: they offer to call an uber. I don't think shaming
Speaker 4: is ever the answer, because it was very much designed
Speaker 4: for people to judge. I mean, that's what paparazzi shots are.
Speaker 4: That's the business model of the Daily Mail, right. Yeah,
Speaker 4: And interestingly, even all the Daily Mail comments will surprisingly lovely.
Speaker 4: But what do we do with that the fact that
Speaker 4: as a society we want people to get help, We
Speaker 4: absolutely do, but we also don't want them on our roads,
Speaker 4: but also driving children.
Speaker 3: What did they do to stop?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly. The whole world doesn't need to know about that,
Speaker 2: do you know what? I mean? They could have if
Speaker 2: we're concerned about road safety, that's one issue, and maybe
Speaker 2: stop the woman from getting in the car, or call
Speaker 2: the police or whatever. Does the nation yet to know,
Speaker 2: like does that worldwide humiliation help? Is it going to
Speaker 2: push anybody direct?
Speaker 4: Has been argued by some people, probably media organizations that
Speaker 4: ran this is that by surfacing those photos, an intervention
Speaker 4: clearly happens. This is I'm not saying that I agree
Speaker 4: with this, but that they were doing a public service
Speaker 4: by bringing this to a head.
Speaker 3: Any evidence would tell you that this is not the
Speaker 3: way to go about it by media. No, but this
Speaker 3: is well, that's this is a lesson that we have
Speaker 3: learned a hundred times. And we've talked about the intense
Speaker 3: issues with the Internet and all its flaws. But to me,
Speaker 3: this was a moment where the Internet showed its power,
Speaker 3: which is that they were calling bullshit on this blatant
Speaker 3: cruelty and that we have seen Amy Winehouse, we have
Speaker 3: seen justin Bieber, we have seen Britney Spears. All of
Speaker 3: these people go down a certain road, and we have
Speaker 3: evolved in terms of our understanding of addiction. So shame
Speaker 3: and addiction are like magnets, and shame is one of
Speaker 3: the biggest hurdles to recovery. And that's what Kate talked
Speaker 3: about in that statement, was that you do not shame
Speaker 3: someone out of illness, you don't shame someone out of.
Speaker 4: Addiction, but sometimes you need to shame the people around
Speaker 4: them to take action to protect that person and to
Speaker 4: protect vulnerable people in their care.
Speaker 2: But I think that's disingenuous. Not from Eumia, but that
Speaker 2: argument is I think, no, I know, I know you're not,
Speaker 2: but I think it's a disingenuous argument because it presumes
Speaker 2: a lot of things. It presumes that there wasn't already
Speaker 2: a lot of steps in place for Kate to deal
Speaker 2: with what she's clearly dealing with. That that is why
Speaker 2: she wasn't at work in the first place, that she
Speaker 2: doesn't have people around her who are helping her. It
Speaker 2: presumes that, oh, well, the paparazzi stepped in and held
Speaker 2: up a mirror and Kate, Richie or and you know,
Speaker 2: you mentioned some other celebrity names there, Jesse, But there's
Speaker 2: much closer to home than that. I interviewed Julie Goodwin
Speaker 2: for mid This exact thing happened to her. She was
Speaker 2: struggling with an alcohol problem and she was busted for dui,
Speaker 2: and it was one of the many points along the
Speaker 2: road that definitely pushed her to get.
Speaker 1: Help, but not child in the car.
Speaker 2: But the public nature of it was not, in fact
Speaker 2: that pushed her down a much much darker mental health
Speaker 2: road that saw her suicidal. It's not that an addict
Speaker 2: or somebody struggling with mental health won't go that moment
Speaker 2: when I got in the car with my kid. That's
Speaker 2: not what happened with Julie Goodwin, and we don't know
Speaker 2: that's what happened here, but you know, in an addict's journey,
Speaker 2: that moment where I put myself in that danger and
Speaker 2: other people in danger was definitely one of the pivotal points,
Speaker 2: that moment where I had that fight with that person,
Speaker 2: that moment where I spent all my money, all those things,
Speaker 2: But the public shaming that he.
Speaker 4: Actually was so different to Kate Richie than it was
Speaker 4: to say mis Shelle bridges.
Speaker 3: A lot of public goodwill towards Kate Richie. I think
Speaker 3: people really love her.
Speaker 2: We've known her all like all her life, pretty much
Speaker 2: since she was for her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I do think that we have changed how
Speaker 3: we look at these stories. I've even noticed and this
Speaker 3: isn't about celebrity. But if you are walking down the
Speaker 3: street and someone is behaving in a way, maybe they're yelling,
Speaker 3: maybe they're having an episode, maybe they're having a moment.
Speaker 3: Ten years ago, I would see people pull their phones
Speaker 3: out and there was this instinct to just film. Right recently,
Speaker 3: I was walking down the street and that moment happened,
Speaker 3: and I saw someone do it, and I saw someone
Speaker 3: else say put it away. I reckon that we have
Speaker 3: this broader public understanding that that is not how we
Speaker 3: behave that there is something morally degenerate, disgusting and virtuous
Speaker 3: about that kind of behavior, and it's undignified. It's not
Speaker 3: giving dignity to the person that you're filming. So if
Speaker 3: I saw someone getting in the car and they were intoxicated,
Speaker 3: I might called police. I might, but I wouldn't get
Speaker 3: my phone out because that's not how.
Speaker 4: That's not your that's not your business model. Kate, If
Speaker 4: you are listening and to anyone who is struggling at
Speaker 4: the moment, we send love and we're rooting for you.
Speaker 4: And if you or someone you know is struggling, we
Speaker 4: will pop some resources and links in the show notes.
Speaker 4: Have you checked on your labbier lately because it might
Speaker 4: not be there anymore.
Speaker 2: Yes, this.
Speaker 1: Is CSI labia.
Speaker 4: Apparently, the disappearing labbier is a menopausal symptom that affects
Speaker 4: up to eighty five percent of women.
Speaker 1: But hardly anyone's talking about it. Maybe we didn't notice.
Speaker 2: Okay, wait, the same you can hear is everyone putting
Speaker 2: their hand in their path?
Speaker 3: May have you checked your labby recently?
Speaker 1: Well, hang on.
Speaker 2: Your hands.
Speaker 3: We are in a public space.
Speaker 4: Well it's still there, I think, Holly, have you checked
Speaker 4: your But the other thing.
Speaker 1: Is, you know there's two types.
Speaker 4: There's the manora and the minordia majora MAJORA. I don't
Speaker 4: even know the name. Okay, have you heard the catchy
Speaker 4: little song?
Speaker 1: Have A listened to?
Speaker 3: This?
Speaker 1: Side labia majora?
Speaker 3: So majora is the outside? Manora is inside, and you're
Speaker 3: telling me that I'm gonna lose.
Speaker 4: When you say outside, do you mean lips or do
Speaker 4: you mean outside flaps and inside flaps?
Speaker 3: I mean outside flaps and majora inside flaps of manora? Right?
Speaker 1: And then plus lips are a different thing. What are
Speaker 1: they called? What? I don't know?
Speaker 3: You have three sets? No, you have to go to
Speaker 3: the doc bar of.
Speaker 2: Course mia has more.
Speaker 1: I'm at top of the lab.
Speaker 3: You're not meant to have three la You're only meant
Speaker 3: to have two.
Speaker 1: Anyway during menopause.
Speaker 3: Apparently, did you grow an extra pair?
Speaker 1: I could have.
Speaker 4: Dropping estrogen levels. Unlikely because too much estrogen.
Speaker 3: That is, so you take anyone else have eight labia?
Speaker 4: No, But apparently both the inner and the outer lips
Speaker 4: of the vulver can literally shrink and in some cases
Speaker 4: completely disappear, and it can start as early as your
Speaker 4: thirties or your forties, just keeps coming. The medical term
Speaker 4: is vaginal atrophy and it comes with some not so
Speaker 4: fun effects like dryna's itching and painful sex. But here's
Speaker 4: the thing, apparently you don't have to just cop it.
Speaker 4: There are treatments available are from over the counter moisturizers
Speaker 4: to prescription istrogen cree.
Speaker 3: Because gen X women stood up and they said, not
Speaker 3: our lips. You can take everything, but not our minora.
Speaker 3: When it comes to Perry menopause and menopause, there's one
Speaker 3: woman who would like you all to say less. And
Speaker 3: that woman is not me. Despite speaking about your lobbyers,
Speaker 3: before I'd even had my coffee on a Monday morning,
Speaker 3: I welcome the chats as I'm a lovely person.
Speaker 1: As it's also coming for you, my friend.
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm not for a long time.
Speaker 4: Hold onto your lobby disappear. We could start your thirties listening.
Speaker 3: I stumbled across this article in The Australian over the
Speaker 3: weekend by Sasha Callahan about how we are treating menopause
Speaker 3: like an enemy to be defeated. But at what point
Speaker 3: do we just accept we're getting old and give.
Speaker 2: Up the fight?
Speaker 3: Callahan says, all women are talking about is this bloody
Speaker 3: menopause thing. You can't even open a bottle of rose
Speaker 3: without someone talking about their drivers.
Speaker 2: She argues, she's been to dinner with me and.
Speaker 3: Every ailment from anxiety to tiredness, to your skin changing
Speaker 3: to irritability is blamed on menopause. There's no more coming
Speaker 3: to terms with that. Apparently we instead have to, and
Speaker 3: this is a quote, put ourselves through a biochemical process
Speaker 3: of rejuvenation in the hope that we can hold off
Speaker 3: to kline and death.
Speaker 2: Is she talking about medication? Is she talking? Is hrt?
Speaker 1: Also? How old is she?
Speaker 3: I would like to know that information, but I didn't
Speaker 3: look it up because we play the ball, not the.
Speaker 1: Person need to up my hit because I want to
Speaker 1: swell her in.
Speaker 3: She says that Perry has become a case of self
Speaker 3: I D rather than anything recognizably medical. You say, you reckon,
Speaker 3: you're experiencing Perry, and the hormones will be described, and
Speaker 3: all this awareness raising is probably very welcomed by the
Speaker 3: manufacturers of HRT. You too seem irritable. Is it time
Speaker 3: you just accepted menopause and got on with.
Speaker 1: It down and accepted position?
Speaker 2: Because we're not fight It's not about fighting it right.
Speaker 2: She says that you know, you can't open a bottle
Speaker 2: of rose without someone talking about the driver vagina. I
Speaker 2: know lots of menopausal women who also feel a bit
Speaker 2: icky about that, about how intimate were expected to go.
Speaker 2: Now everybody like, what's going on with your vagina? What's
Speaker 2: going If that's not your thing, it doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be your thing. But the great thing about all this
Speaker 2: yapping that gen X has been doing is that for
Speaker 2: a long time, more than a third of women have
Speaker 2: had quite debilitating symptoms with all kinds of issues that
Speaker 2: related to their hormones, Perry and menopause, and we.
Speaker 1: Didn't even realize they were related to our hormone. We
Speaker 1: didn't just would have vagina was for.
Speaker 2: We thought we were losing it, we thought we were
Speaker 2: going crazy. We were branded as angry and all the
Speaker 2: things that Sasha thinks we should embrace, and medical research
Speaker 2: wasn't being done and nobody was doing anything about it.
Speaker 2: Whereas it's funny, how often when men, as they get older,
Speaker 2: things start to droop. Perhaps there's a little pill for
Speaker 2: that like this.
Speaker 3: Do you think that sometimes, playing Devil's advocate, we can
Speaker 3: flate real symptoms like in som now, brain fog, anxiety,
Speaker 3: what happens to your bones, like real stuff, all kinds
Speaker 3: of stuff with the more superficial that maybe that's what
Speaker 3: some people are going. It's one thing to want to
Speaker 3: be able to sleep, but you know, thinking that buying
Speaker 3: a cream or something is going to wind back the
Speaker 3: clock is you know, ridiculous.
Speaker 1: Well it might in you downstairs, but I agree with you.
Speaker 4: I think that there's a difference between saying I don't
Speaker 4: want to look like I'm getting older, which happens also,
Speaker 4: funnily enough, during perry and menopause, and as you say,
Speaker 4: those superficial signs, but every single symptom that my HRT
Speaker 4: treats and every single symptom that women talk about, whether
Speaker 4: you choose to take hit or not, there are other
Speaker 4: ways to treat it, and even just knowing what causes something.
Speaker 3: Arguing too, does it need to be treated, well.
Speaker 2: It only needs to be treated inverted commas if it's
Speaker 2: negatively affecting your life. Right, And there's no argument that
Speaker 2: there is a bit of a gold rush going on,
Speaker 2: like drink this tea, rub this cream on, take these
Speaker 2: supplements like this candle. There is no question that that's
Speaker 2: all happening out there. That's definitely real. Because GEDEX women
Speaker 2: have started talking about something, as we said, that hadn't
Speaker 2: been being talked about before. We've been talking about it
Speaker 2: for apparently thirty seconds, and that we're all being told
Speaker 2: to shush. You don't need to treat things unless they're
Speaker 2: really impacting your life. But as Mia said before, a
Speaker 2: lot of it really does impact a lot of women's
Speaker 2: lives for a period of time. And not being able
Speaker 2: to ask your doctor without being dismissed as being hysterical,
Speaker 2: surely that is just an information exchange. Right.
Speaker 3: Women have been accepting everything that happens to their bodies
Speaker 3: naturally for tens of thousands of years. And this reminded
Speaker 3: me a little bit of the conversation we have about childbirth,
Speaker 3: that it's like, yeah, it's this natural thing, and like, yeah,
Speaker 3: women have been doing it forever. Why are you trying
Speaker 3: to resist this natural process? And the thing about doing
Speaker 3: anything naturally is that inherent within nature is there's a
Speaker 3: lot of violence and a lot of pain, suffering and
Speaker 3: suffering and potentially death and like really scary stuff. And
Speaker 3: so if you want menopause to happen naturally without these interventions,
Speaker 3: what we've seen is women leaving the workforce prematurely, having
Speaker 3: brain fogs so badly that you can't form a coherent thought.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that the two things for me, the
Speaker 4: two sides of it. There's the shame which I think
Speaker 4: all of this talk about dry vaginas and everything, even
Speaker 4: though you might roll your eyes, it's all about bringing
Speaker 4: something out of the shamehole that's been a fantastic thing
Speaker 4: when it's happened to mental health, when it's happened to miscarriage.
Speaker 3: It also prepares domestic charag surprise.
Speaker 2: And also they might actually be pleasantly surprised, because not
Speaker 2: everybody does get all that stuff, so you might be like, oh, look,
Speaker 2: that didn't happen to me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And then there's the suffering part, which is there's
Speaker 4: twenty five percent of women will have no symptoms, good
Speaker 4: for them, awesome, twenty five percent of women will have
Speaker 4: incredibly debilitating symptoms that will really imp on their life,
Speaker 4: and the rest of us will probably be somewhere in
Speaker 4: the middle, which is where i'd say I fall. And
Speaker 4: it's very subjective whether you choose to do something about
Speaker 4: it or not, buy cream, take hormones, whatever. But information
Speaker 4: is power. We know that, and I think that a
Speaker 4: lot of this has also been about retraining doctors because
Speaker 4: the level of misinformation and buck up little camper vibes
Speaker 4: from the medical profession for a really long time has
Speaker 4: really damaged women.
Speaker 1: So I think it's all good.
Speaker 5: On the nineteenth of January this year, the suburb of
Speaker 5: Dural police were contacted and subsequently recovered a caravan on
Speaker 5: a residential property rural property. That caravan contained an amount
Speaker 5: of explosives and some indication that those explosives might be
Speaker 5: used in some form of anti Semitic attack.
Speaker 3: That was a New South Wales Deputy Police Commissioner David Hudson.
Speaker 3: Australia's current national terrorism threat level remains probable after a
Speaker 3: number of hate fueled attacks against the Jewish community, including,
Speaker 3: as Hudson referred to their the discovery of a caravan
Speaker 3: in Jural, a suburb of Sydney packed with explosives. Despite
Speaker 3: New South Wales's Premier Chris Min's being briefed about the
Speaker 3: caravan the following day on January twenty, the information was
Speaker 3: purposely not passed on to Prime Minister Anthony Aarbernezi Minns
Speaker 3: says that's because it was a strictly confidential investigation. Very
Speaker 3: few people were aware of it and very few people
Speaker 3: needed to know about it. He said, I take that
Speaker 3: responsibility very seriously. The information about the caravan was leaked
Speaker 3: by the Daily Telegraph and since debates have surfaced about
Speaker 3: who should have known and when I kept thinking reading
Speaker 3: these I trust the police, I trust the state government,
Speaker 3: and if informing the public or the PM would risk
Speaker 3: an investigation, then I totally understand not release this information
Speaker 3: to the public. Mia. These threats are specifically aimed at
Speaker 3: the Jewish community, a community that you belong to. Do
Speaker 3: you think the public has a right to know when
Speaker 3: something happens like that.
Speaker 4: I hate to sit on the fence of two things
Speaker 4: can be true. But I understand the reasoning, the well
Speaker 4: intentioned reasoning, of not informing the Jewish community, or in
Speaker 4: fact the wider community about this so they could try
Speaker 4: and solve the crime and catch the perpetrators. However, and
Speaker 4: I don't speak for the Jewish community at all, I
Speaker 4: just speak for myself. I would have liked to know,
Speaker 4: because I think when you are part of a group
Speaker 4: of people that are being targeted and targeted every day
Speaker 4: in terrifying ways. You know, in the streets and suburbs
Speaker 4: near where I live, synagogues and cars and houses and
Speaker 4: daycare centers and schools are being firebombed and vandalised every day,
Speaker 4: and there are helicopters flying low twenty four to seven.
Speaker 4: The threat is real, and the threat has increased now.
Speaker 4: The Jewish community, everyone I have spoken to, is feeling
Speaker 4: incredibly distressed, incredibly unsafe. And I think, again we talk
Speaker 4: about information is power. You might make different decisions if
Speaker 4: you knew that the threat was not I can't believe
Speaker 4: I'm saying just about cars being set on fire and
Speaker 4: daycare centers being set on fire but about mass casualty
Speaker 4: events and people talking about blowing up a synagogue that
Speaker 4: I have attended, the Jewish Museum, which I have also
Speaker 4: attended just in the last few weeks, which my children attend,
Speaker 4: people would make different choices. They might make different choices. Now,
Speaker 4: synagogues were packed on Friday because everybody wanted to go
Speaker 4: and show their support. I went to synagogue. Did I
Speaker 4: take my granddaughter?
Speaker 1: No? I didn't because I knew. So you make risk assess.
Speaker 1: Some people chose not to send their children to Jewish
Speaker 1: schools or Jewish daycares or changed enrollments. A lot of
Speaker 1: us where Mugga David Star of David necklaces, particularly at
Speaker 1: the moment around our next at universities in public, we
Speaker 1: might choose to hide those. And I can't believe I'm
Speaker 1: even saying this, but I think everybody's doing their best
Speaker 1: at a time that is shocking. And I'm not going
Speaker 1: to backseat drive and criticize what the police are doing
Speaker 1: at all, but I just think it's worth putting forward
Speaker 1: that perspective as well.
Speaker 3: After the break, We've got an inspirational act of micro
Speaker 3: pettiness to share.
Speaker 2: With you unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every
Speaker 2: Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the
Speaker 2: link in the show notes to get us in your
Speaker 2: ears five days a week. And a huge thank you
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 4: You may have seen that our conversation on last week's
Speaker 4: show where we're identified a phenomenon called micro pettiness where
Speaker 4: people do tiny, often i perceptibly petty things as a
Speaker 4: way to make themselves feel better.
Speaker 3: We were viral, didn't We turns out that out louders
Speaker 3: very bad. I'm self identified as the most petty of
Speaker 3: any podcast community, and they're like, oh, I have some examples.
Speaker 4: Our big boss Ruth came up with this. It's a
Speaker 4: totally original syndrome phenomenon micropenniness, and we're leaning in. I
Speaker 4: think that one of the people who clearly saw that
Speaker 4: video and said hold my beer is Princess Kate Middleton because.
Speaker 3: She zone for being micro petty.
Speaker 1: Well, no, she's not.
Speaker 4: You would think she would definitely rise above that. However,
Speaker 4: Kensington Palace has announced that she will no longer share
Speaker 4: details of her outfits with the public when she goes
Speaker 4: to a public occasion. Now this isn't entirely new, but
Speaker 4: they have announced it. They tested this out when she
Speaker 4: visited Wales recently, and the reason being they say it's
Speaker 4: not about micropetty at all.
Speaker 1: They say they want to shift focus from her fashion
Speaker 1: to her actual work.
Speaker 2: I think Kate has come back from her year off
Speaker 2: of being treated for cancer with big knop energy. That's
Speaker 2: what I think, yea, even though this seems like a
Speaker 2: tiny thing. So what they mean is usually say Kate
Speaker 2: goes and opens a bridge or goes to a childcare
Speaker 2: center or whatever she does. Obviously, press releases come out.
Speaker 2: They tell you where she was, They tell you who
Speaker 2: she met, who she shook hands with, what the main
Speaker 2: points were, and they tell you what she was wearing.
Speaker 3: I didn't realize. They tell you that the.
Speaker 2: Media want to know, right, they always want to know,
Speaker 2: no matter what, and they got the facts in front
Speaker 2: of them. The media will still want to know, and
Speaker 2: we'll go and find out. We could all do a
Speaker 2: reverse Google image search in a hot minute for the
Speaker 2: latest pair of nude pumps.
Speaker 4: It's not ideal because now it won't be confirmed. Now
Speaker 4: it might be that it might not be that.
Speaker 2: But what she's doing is She's saying, I am no
Speaker 2: longer being complicit in your obsession with.
Speaker 1: My clothes over I'm not going to make you job.
Speaker 2: Easier for not known for being rebellious. But this is
Speaker 2: basically Jesse every time Maya puts her phone to her
Speaker 2: for a fit check, and Jesse gets her back up
Speaker 2: and shrugs and goes, I don't know what I'm wearing.
Speaker 2: I don't care. That's what Kate's doing.
Speaker 1: It's about what I'm saying. She's what I'm wearing.
Speaker 2: Kate's going like, I'm doing my job. I'm wearing clothes.
Speaker 2: I know you're taking my picture. Do you want me
Speaker 2: to talk about my clothes. I'm not going to talk
Speaker 2: about my clothes. Let's talk about early childhood interventions. Let's
Speaker 2: talk about that. And everyone goes, no, we want to
Speaker 2: talk about your hat.
Speaker 3: She's like, no, I mean one, what Kate's been through,
Speaker 3: I'm sure has impacted this decision, but as well the
Speaker 3: climate in the UK at the moment, in terms of
Speaker 3: cost of living, in terms of really serious political issues
Speaker 3: that are being discussed, and the lives like friends that
Speaker 3: I know in London, things really hard at the moment.
Speaker 3: Does it feel a bit on the nose to have
Speaker 3: you know, Kate saying this is from Zara.
Speaker 4: No, I think that would and the thing is that
Speaker 4: about her unlike Megan.
Speaker 1: It's interesting.
Speaker 4: It's a real passag thing that the media often does
Speaker 4: with women that don't do it with Kate. They only
Speaker 4: do it with women that are more polarizing. So, for example,
Speaker 4: they'll do it to Zoe Foster Blake. They did it
Speaker 4: for a while where paparazzi would follow her around and
Speaker 4: then they would say, you know, her outfit is worth
Speaker 4: X amount of dime. I was thinking that they would
Speaker 4: go and price it all. They do it to Megan Marklek, right,
Speaker 4: but they don't usually do it to Kate. And Kate
Speaker 4: also doesn't wear very high end things. And there's also
Speaker 4: an understanding like the queen, you know that she's not
Speaker 4: a fashion plate. But you know who this is bad
Speaker 4: for is the fashion industry. I mean, it's not that
Speaker 4: bad because, as Holly said, it's not like that information
Speaker 4: won't they can cut their hand up they say that's
Speaker 4: our skirt. They can you know, then allowed to take
Speaker 4: freebies the rules. This is one of the things that
Speaker 4: Megan hated. She's like, why can't I get free clothes.
Speaker 2: And that's why what you'll often get as a journalist
Speaker 2: is you'll get an email from the fashion label saying,
Speaker 2: Kate Middleton wore my skirt. Here's a picture of Kate
Speaker 2: Midleton wearing my skirt. But they didn't send that skirt Kate.
Speaker 2: Because Kate can't get freebies, she has to pay for
Speaker 2: her clothes. It's one of the royal rules. And she
Speaker 2: also often gets a lot of crap for repeating it.
Speaker 2: Outfits right maya.
Speaker 4: Yes, And I actually think that she uses this very strategically.
Speaker 4: Someone else who does this very well is Cate Blanchette,
Speaker 4: where they will, you know, their publicist will confirm that, yes,
Speaker 4: this is the same dress that Kate wore to the
Speaker 4: opening of The Something of the Something in twenty twenty three,
Speaker 4: and she's had it altered or she's just wearing it again.
Speaker 4: And people really like that, and the media really like
Speaker 4: that too, because it means that they can show the
Speaker 4: two dresses side by side and look at it then
Speaker 4: and look at it now. But there's an instagrammer and
Speaker 4: journalist called Elizabeth Holmes. She's right for the Wall Street Journal.
Speaker 4: She's now sort of made a specialty. She's not that
Speaker 4: Elizabeth Holmes writing about royals, and she's got a brand
Speaker 4: or Instagram page called so Many Thoughts, and she has
Speaker 4: taken a very journalistic approach to analyzing the wardrobes of
Speaker 4: royal women, everyone from the Queen to Diana to now
Speaker 4: Princess Kate and Megan Mirkale. And her point is, or
Speaker 4: her philosophy is that because royal women can't speak, they
Speaker 4: really don't have a voice, right, as Megan Michael also
Speaker 4: complained about understandably, and they signify a lot, They say
Speaker 4: a lot through the clothes that they wear. That's one
Speaker 4: of their primary forms of communication. So I think it's
Speaker 4: very micro petty, and I don't say that as a criticism.
Speaker 4: I think the principle of it is awesome.
Speaker 3: I agree. I wonder if this had something to do
Speaker 3: with what happened in November. So in November she made
Speaker 3: an appearance at the Remembrance Day event, and her appearance
Speaker 3: was so scrutinized. We talked about it on the show.
Speaker 3: People made awful comments about aging and close ups of
Speaker 3: her face and all that kind of stuff. And I've
Speaker 3: got this image in my head of Kate going home
Speaker 3: stumping her feet and being like, why can't I just
Speaker 3: go to work like everyone else? Why can't I just
Speaker 3: go to work and do my job and not have
Speaker 3: it be about my appearance being dissected in some sort
Speaker 3: of public sport.
Speaker 1: I think you spot on there, Jesse, because that's what
Speaker 1: you signed up for. Unfortunately that's the job.
Speaker 2: But the tricky part have to be. But Kate is
Speaker 2: at a turning point because she's getting to her forties,
Speaker 2: because she is no longer a hot young thing in
Speaker 2: inverted commas, the scrutiny on her is going to shift.
Speaker 2: So it's always been about her weight and her hair
Speaker 2: and whatever, but now it's going to be about how
Speaker 2: she's aging, because welcome to being a grown up woman.
Speaker 2: It'll be like, let's count the wrinkles, let's decide whether
Speaker 2: or not she's had any treatments, she had any surgery,
Speaker 2: hows she had burtos. That is going to be all
Speaker 2: the discourse about her appearance, and she can't control that,
Speaker 2: but she can control how much she participates in it.
Speaker 2: And I feel like, to your point, Mire, You're so right,
Speaker 2: they're not allowed to speak, so silence is kind of
Speaker 2: her only power, right, Yeah, So she can go. I
Speaker 2: know you're going to do that, and it's really going
Speaker 2: to piss me off. This is my job to turn
Speaker 2: up to things and you're going to see me with
Speaker 2: your eyes and have thoughts about it. But I'm not
Speaker 2: playing that game anymore and stomping her foot.
Speaker 4: As you said, do you know what you can also
Speaker 4: tell is that she's not a woman who enjoys clothes.
Speaker 4: They're certain great, no, no, but that does got nothing
Speaker 4: to do with it. There's certain women who love it,
Speaker 4: who love clothes. Meghan Markel loves clothes. I love clothes.
Speaker 4: Doesn't mean that you two don't look great, particularly you Jesse.
Speaker 4: Some women just don't like you genuinely. It's not fun
Speaker 4: for you. It's not interesting for you. You like a nice outfit,
Speaker 4: you like to look good, and you do look good,
Speaker 4: but it doesn't feed you and you get no joy
Speaker 4: from it.
Speaker 3: Really, I don't release exactly.
Speaker 1: And that's why.
Speaker 4: And I think Kate genuinely brings her no joy and
Speaker 4: you can just see that. So I think that that
Speaker 4: is also part of it, is just saying this does
Speaker 4: nothing for me. I'm not going to play the game.
Speaker 1: That's all.
Speaker 2: We've got time for it. Out louders, thank you so
Speaker 2: much for being with us here on this Monday. Well,
Speaker 2: if we're going to have a show where we can't
Speaker 2: stop me from talking about Labia anytime soon.
Speaker 1: That woman's right. I actually am inclined to agree with her.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 3: It's my pseudonyms. That that is my pseudonym riting in
Speaker 3: the Australian. So my boss will not stop talking about
Speaker 3: a vaginal Dryna.
Speaker 2: Rose, No, Rose, it's just come up.
Speaker 1: I started to put it s Vernon.
Speaker 4: I wasn't even on the show and I heard her
Speaker 4: talking about needing that bomb for her driver Jina, and
Speaker 4: she's a child.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's me.
Speaker 1: I didn't start this. Thank you.
Speaker 2: We'll be back with our Grammys round up tomorrow. We'll
Speaker 2: see you that.
Speaker 3: Check on your Manora.
Speaker 4: Shout out to any Mom and Maya subscribers listening. If
Speaker 4: you love the show and want to support us as well,
Speaker 4: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to
Speaker 4: do so.
Speaker 1: There is a link in the episode description