WEBVTT - Eve Wiley’s Father Was A Serial Sperm Donor…And He’s Not Alone

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges

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<v Speaker 1>the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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<v Speaker 1>is recorded on from Mamma Maya. You're listening to No

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<v Speaker 1>Filter and I'm mea Friedman. How many times can you

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<v Speaker 1>find out life changing news about your dad? For Eve Wiley,

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<v Speaker 1>the answer is three times, and it was about three

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<v Speaker 1>different men. Eve Wiley has had three fathers in her lifetime.

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<v Speaker 1>One of them sadly passed away when she was seven.

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<v Speaker 1>One of them is a great guy, but he wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>who she thought he was, And one of them was

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<v Speaker 1>an egomaniacal monster. If you watch the Netflix series The

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<v Speaker 1>Man with a Thousand Kids that told the story of

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<v Speaker 1>cereal sperm donor Jonathan Meyer, you might recognize Eve's name.

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<v Speaker 1>She wasn't impregnated by Jonathan, but she helped try and

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<v Speaker 1>stop him from harming other women, more women, and from

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<v Speaker 1>doing more damage to the hundreds, probably thousands of children

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<v Speaker 1>he's already conceived. But Jonathan isn't the only guy who's

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<v Speaker 1>trying to superminate the world. There are more serial sperm

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<v Speaker 1>doners like him out there who, for whatever reason, I

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<v Speaker 1>obsessed with the idea of impregnating women under false pretenses

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<v Speaker 1>for their own twisted reasons, and nobody knows that better

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<v Speaker 1>than eight. If you were seven when your father died,

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<v Speaker 1>how old were you when you discovered that he wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>actually your biological father.

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<v Speaker 2>I was sixteen years old when I was going through

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<v Speaker 2>my mom's emails. She was a school nurse at my school,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I kind of had this little habit where

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<v Speaker 2>I would go unto her emails and I would find

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<v Speaker 2>all the juicy gossip on my code words or if

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<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe a teacher sent an email that like

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<v Speaker 2>I had a bad grade or something. You know. It

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<v Speaker 2>was management for myself, was what it was. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>when I found the emails of my mom email in California,

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<v Speaker 2>Cara Bank, and I saw my birth date on it.

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<v Speaker 2>My thought was, you know, from a small town, my

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<v Speaker 2>grandpa has cows that my mom was doing something for

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<v Speaker 2>like artificial insemination for the bulls.

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<v Speaker 1>That wouldn't have been most people's first thought, but I

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<v Speaker 1>see why that was relevant for you.

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<v Speaker 2>It was very relevant. But as soon as I saw

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<v Speaker 2>my birth date, I knew in that exact moment that

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<v Speaker 2>I was the juicy gossip within the coport. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>when I found out that I was doing or conceived.

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<v Speaker 1>When someone finds something life changing via snooping, there is

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<v Speaker 1>a dilemma because you've got to admit to the snooping

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to confront the person about the thing

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<v Speaker 1>you've discovered. What did you do next?

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<v Speaker 2>It was late at night. What I did exactly was

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<v Speaker 2>I ended up playing SIMS and creating a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>babies in my son's game. Interesting kind of playing it

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<v Speaker 2>out there. But I went to bed and I woke

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<v Speaker 2>up the next morning and my mom was in the

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<v Speaker 2>bathroom getting ready, and I dis barged in and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, mom, I know that Doug isn't my dad.

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<v Speaker 2>And I just remember her looking at me in the

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<v Speaker 2>reflection of the mirror, just turning around. She's like, what

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<v Speaker 2>are you talking about? And she starts bawling. And at

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<v Speaker 2>the time at this like, you know, it's just a

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<v Speaker 2>naive sixteen year old. I was excited, you know. For me,

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't understand the complexities of donor conception, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in a social sense, but also in an ethical sense.

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<v Speaker 2>For me, I was like, I still have, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a dad. I probably have half siblings and so it

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<v Speaker 2>was very like, you know, Pollyanna about this, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>how I kind of confronted her, and she did a

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<v Speaker 2>really good job of you know, Eve, you were seven

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<v Speaker 2>when your dad died. They told us not to ever

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<v Speaker 2>tell you and it wasn't going to be important. And

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<v Speaker 2>she brought up this green folder and it was every

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<v Speaker 2>print out from an email that she had ever spoken

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<v Speaker 2>to anyone on like Yahoo messenger boards, not to like

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<v Speaker 2>date myself. You know, it was before Facebook, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>her medical records and you know, all of the things

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<v Speaker 2>to where she really was creating this breadcrumb trowel for me.

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<v Speaker 2>And for me that was really meaningful because I could

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<v Speaker 2>actually see it that that she really was going to

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<v Speaker 2>tell me. She just didn't know how to tell me.

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<v Speaker 1>I imagine there were lots of different feelings. You say you

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<v Speaker 1>were quite Pollyanna about it, but I imagine you're losing Doug,

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<v Speaker 1>who you thought was your father, essentially your stepfather at

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<v Speaker 1>age seven. That must have been pretty traumatic for you

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<v Speaker 1>at that age. Did it feel a little bit like

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<v Speaker 1>a new phase of grief in terms of losing him

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<v Speaker 1>again at sixteen?

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<v Speaker 2>You don't know if at sixteen I could wrap my

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<v Speaker 2>head around that part. You know, there definitely was a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of grief and there was a level of trauma

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<v Speaker 2>of not having you know, that father figure growing up

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<v Speaker 2>right eventually, But for me, I think it was just

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<v Speaker 2>trying to look at it in more of a positive sense. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>Remember at this time, I was not aware that the

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<v Speaker 2>donor could be like, no, I don't want to have

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<v Speaker 2>contact with you, because in my head that was never

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<v Speaker 2>a thing. It wasn't until later where I started to

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<v Speaker 2>realize that, you know, the social constructs of this could

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<v Speaker 2>be very different. With that new information. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>there was, you know, a sense of hesitancy on my

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<v Speaker 2>part and fear that I may be rejected, and so

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<v Speaker 2>it did kind of like snowball into other types of feelings.

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<v Speaker 2>But that morning, in that moment, I was excited, but

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<v Speaker 2>completely naive and completely unaware of what it even meant.

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<v Speaker 1>Because I guess in a way, you lost Doug again,

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<v Speaker 1>but then also your father was alive again because you

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<v Speaker 1>hadn't even met him and he was out there somewhere right.

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<v Speaker 1>What a lot of emotions it is.

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<v Speaker 2>And is I think it's one of those times too,

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<v Speaker 2>where you know, I was having opposite feelings about something.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. I was excited, but to your point, there

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<v Speaker 2>was a level of grief. But then, you know, growing

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<v Speaker 2>up in my nuclear family, I was this blonde hair,

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<v Speaker 2>blue green eyed little girl. My little sister, who was

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<v Speaker 2>fourteen months younger than me, had this olive skin complexion,

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<v Speaker 2>dark brown hair, dark brown eyes. I looked like no

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<v Speaker 2>one in my family. There was no familiarity, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I was constantly teased for being adopted. And so there

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<v Speaker 2>is something called the thought unknown, where I always knew

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<v Speaker 2>there was a secret. I just didn't know that I

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<v Speaker 2>was the secret until then. So then being able to

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<v Speaker 2>justify and everything makes sense to have an actual reason

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<v Speaker 2>for it instead of wondering what it was.

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<v Speaker 1>Was your sister the biological child of Doug and your mom.

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<v Speaker 2>She was When my parents initially went to their fertility doctor,

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<v Speaker 2>my dad had Verico's fans around his testes, and so

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<v Speaker 2>the recommendation was to get a surgery to get us

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<v Speaker 2>taken care of. So he did that they still aren'

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<v Speaker 2>getting pregnant. So then the next step was to do

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<v Speaker 2>artificial insemination by an anonymous ferm donor. When I was born,

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<v Speaker 2>my parents were pregnant four months later, and so it

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<v Speaker 2>could be that maybe there just wasn't enough time after

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<v Speaker 2>the surgery of the reversal of the surgery. So she

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<v Speaker 2>is the biological child of my dad, Doug.

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<v Speaker 1>So how did things feel between you and her? Learning

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<v Speaker 1>that you were not actually sis, were you were half sisters?

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<v Speaker 1>You had different fathers.

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<v Speaker 2>This one caught me by surprise. I didn't think that

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<v Speaker 2>it would impact her, and that was just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>me being shortsighted. But when we sat my sister down

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<v Speaker 2>and we told her, she started crying. And the only

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<v Speaker 2>thing she said before she ran out of the room

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<v Speaker 2>was well, least you have a dad, And that was

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<v Speaker 2>it that hurt, because then it was like, yeah, now

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<v Speaker 2>I feel guilt, and wow, this is getting really complicated.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, there wasn't a book for me to

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<v Speaker 2>go read. There wasn't a blog yet. There wasn't anyone

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<v Speaker 2>that I even knew that was donor conceived except for

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<v Speaker 2>the cows at my grandma's house, And so I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>have a north star to be able to have some

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<v Speaker 2>sort of expectations of how this should go and how

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<v Speaker 2>this could go. Even when I called California Cryobank. At

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<v Speaker 2>this time, no one had made a connection with their donor,

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<v Speaker 2>so they didn't really have any good information for me

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<v Speaker 2>either on how to proceed with this, so it was

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<v Speaker 2>very lonely, and then it became a thing of what,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to talk about this in front of

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<v Speaker 2>my sister because it all make her sad, which only

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<v Speaker 2>reinforced that loneliness.

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<v Speaker 1>In Australia, there are laws that came in a few

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<v Speaker 1>decades ago. I think that sperm donors could only be

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<v Speaker 1>anonymous up until the age of any donor children that

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<v Speaker 1>had been conceived were eighteen, and then those children had

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<v Speaker 1>a legal right to find them. What are the laws,

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<v Speaker 1>I imagine it probably differs state by state. But did

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<v Speaker 1>you know that you would be able to find your

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<v Speaker 1>the identity of your donor or? Was that tricky?

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<v Speaker 2>It was tricky because it is literally the wild wild

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<v Speaker 2>West here in good old us of A. It's entirely

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<v Speaker 2>left up to the donors in the clinics, And so

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<v Speaker 2>at the time that I was conceived, the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>an open donor versus a closed donor wasn't even a

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<v Speaker 2>topic of conversation. The recommendation in the eighties was don't ask,

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<v Speaker 2>don't tell, like they don't need to know, it's not important.

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<v Speaker 2>You're the parent and that's it. So there wasn't a

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<v Speaker 2>level of education to educate on the donor be canceive

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<v Speaker 2>experience or about how important genetic identity is. And then

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<v Speaker 2>even now I just feel like in the last you know,

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<v Speaker 2>ten years, the sperm banks here in clinics are just

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<v Speaker 2>now starting to realize, you know, maybe anonymous donation isn't

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<v Speaker 2>great because here anonymity breaths fraud when you're able to

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<v Speaker 2>exist under the cloak of anonymity. And it wasn't until

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<v Speaker 2>the you know, invention of commercial dnate testing that is

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<v Speaker 2>really blowing the lid off of those So as far

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<v Speaker 2>as the being the laws here, there's just pure recommendations

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<v Speaker 2>per the American Society of Reproductive Medicine.

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<v Speaker 1>Will you angradate your mom that she hadn't told you

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<v Speaker 1>and that she had no intention of telling you?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes and no. I was angry that I was live

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<v Speaker 2>to you, But when she pulled out the green folder,

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<v Speaker 2>all of that kind of melted away because I could

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<v Speaker 2>see the amount of hours that she poured into this,

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<v Speaker 2>and I believed her when she said I didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>how to tell you, I didn't when to tell you.

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<v Speaker 2>But I knew that if I did all of this

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<v Speaker 2>research and had all this information, that you would believe

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<v Speaker 2>me that I have been doing this for a very

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<v Speaker 2>long time. And so I think that that very much

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<v Speaker 2>helped bridge the gap between those emotions for me, because

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<v Speaker 2>I could very much empathize with not being able to

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<v Speaker 2>tell a seven year old whose father just passed away, well,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's not like your real dad, because let's go

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<v Speaker 2>talk about, you know, how babies are made now. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there's no way, like I totally.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a lot of conversation, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Being seven, being like like just understanding developmentally, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>abstract thinking. And it didn't seem as appropriate at that

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<v Speaker 2>time to explain grief, death and artificial insamination.

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<v Speaker 1>And your mom must have felt protective of Doug and

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<v Speaker 1>his relationship with you, and I can say that I

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<v Speaker 1>can understand why she did it. How did you find

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<v Speaker 1>the identity of your Dina? What did you learn in

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<v Speaker 1>that green folder?

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<v Speaker 2>So in the green folder I had my mom's medical records,

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<v Speaker 2>and in there it said the date that I was

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<v Speaker 2>conceived with Donor one oh six from California Crowdbank. And

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<v Speaker 2>this was in the doctor's handwriting. So that was confirmation

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<v Speaker 2>of my conception. And my mom had one sheet of

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<v Speaker 2>paper and it had California Crow Bank all the donors listed,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was just one line donor number, physical characteristics,

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<v Speaker 2>level of education, and interest, like just very limited, and

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<v Speaker 2>you could see like not this one, not this one,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe this one, and then she circled one and this one,

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<v Speaker 2>and then there were letters to like Wendy or emails

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<v Speaker 2>like Wendy Kramer Single Mothers by Choice organization. I think

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<v Speaker 2>at one point there was like maybe a Canadian donor

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<v Speaker 2>conception network, different professional organizations, and all of it was like,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just trying to get more information. We knew his

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<v Speaker 2>religion was of I Made Butcher, this the Bahai faith,

0:11:58.485 --> 0:12:01.085
<v Speaker 2>and so my mom had all of these like communications

0:12:01.165 --> 0:12:05.285
<v Speaker 2>with that religious organization. So that was kind of what

0:12:05.485 --> 0:12:07.325
<v Speaker 2>was the bulk of the folder. There were also personal

0:12:07.405 --> 0:12:09.725
<v Speaker 2>emails and personal stories where she was asked, how do

0:12:09.805 --> 0:12:11.405
<v Speaker 2>I tell my daughter you're an adult?

0:12:11.445 --> 0:12:11.605
<v Speaker 1>Now?

0:12:11.725 --> 0:12:14.325
<v Speaker 2>What should I do? What should I not do? That

0:12:14.365 --> 0:12:14.965
<v Speaker 2>type of stuff.

0:12:16.205 --> 0:12:19.365
<v Speaker 1>So she'd been trying to track down your donor secretly

0:12:19.405 --> 0:12:20.285
<v Speaker 1>all these years.

0:12:20.885 --> 0:12:23.725
<v Speaker 2>Kind of I think that in her very limited way,

0:12:23.965 --> 0:12:26.885
<v Speaker 2>she was trying to understand you know what was the

0:12:26.925 --> 0:12:30.845
<v Speaker 2>network in the landscape. Donor Sibling registery was not quite

0:12:30.845 --> 0:12:34.205
<v Speaker 2>built yet, but that was the only pretty much formal

0:12:34.325 --> 0:12:36.885
<v Speaker 2>platform where you could put it in your donor number

0:12:37.365 --> 0:12:40.165
<v Speaker 2>and you would hope that the donor would register as

0:12:40.205 --> 0:12:41.325
<v Speaker 2>well as other half siblings.

0:12:41.565 --> 0:12:44.605
<v Speaker 1>So ultimately, when she was choosing her donor, she chose

0:12:44.845 --> 0:12:47.885
<v Speaker 1>number one hundred and six because he had certain qualities.

0:12:47.925 --> 0:12:50.965
<v Speaker 1>He had an interest in film and politics, which she

0:12:51.045 --> 0:12:54.445
<v Speaker 1>thought was similar to her and to her husband. And

0:12:54.485 --> 0:12:57.245
<v Speaker 1>you tracked him down, you said about making contact with

0:12:57.405 --> 0:12:59.845
<v Speaker 1>number one hundred and six, Who did you find?

0:13:00.285 --> 0:13:05.565
<v Speaker 2>I found Steve Shoal and I contacted the Crow Bank.

0:13:05.925 --> 0:13:08.445
<v Speaker 2>Their rules at the time were we need the medical

0:13:08.485 --> 0:13:11.605
<v Speaker 2>records from the doctor or to confirm, and they also

0:13:11.685 --> 0:13:14.525
<v Speaker 2>had their records that were purchasing records from the doctor,

0:13:14.805 --> 0:13:18.925
<v Speaker 2>so those things matched up, and they sent kind of

0:13:18.925 --> 0:13:21.805
<v Speaker 2>like a questionnaire that was like, let's update your medical records,

0:13:21.885 --> 0:13:25.485
<v Speaker 2>not saying like, hey, you have a daughter. And so

0:13:25.605 --> 0:13:28.405
<v Speaker 2>that process took about a year because I think eventually

0:13:29.605 --> 0:13:32.925
<v Speaker 2>Steve don one of six, who I also call Dad,

0:13:33.485 --> 0:13:36.765
<v Speaker 2>he was like, why do y'all need this? And they're like, oh,

0:13:37.005 --> 0:13:39.445
<v Speaker 2>because you have a daughter and he was like, I'm

0:13:39.485 --> 0:13:41.965
<v Speaker 2>sorry what you know, he was surprised by it. I

0:13:41.965 --> 0:13:43.845
<v Speaker 2>think in his head he was like, I'm just doing

0:13:43.845 --> 0:13:44.565
<v Speaker 2>this for research.

0:13:44.805 --> 0:13:47.565
<v Speaker 1>Well, had he forgotten that he donated spam? Like why

0:13:47.605 --> 0:13:49.845
<v Speaker 1>had he donated for money?

0:13:50.605 --> 0:13:53.765
<v Speaker 2>He was in college, easy way to make a bug, like,

0:13:54.085 --> 0:13:54.405
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:13:54.405 --> 0:13:56.845
<v Speaker 1>He'd sort of forgotten about it. He was probably stoned.

0:13:56.965 --> 0:13:59.885
<v Speaker 1>It was college, he was high.

0:14:00.005 --> 0:14:02.405
<v Speaker 2>He wasn't exactly, he wasn't bad about it. He's like

0:14:02.445 --> 0:14:06.925
<v Speaker 2>Lodu's best life, Like I'm doing it anyways, Like what, oh, yeah,

0:14:07.005 --> 0:14:10.125
<v Speaker 2>I remember that vaguely, yeah exactly.

0:14:10.325 --> 0:14:12.645
<v Speaker 1>And where was he in his life when he found

0:14:12.645 --> 0:14:13.685
<v Speaker 1>out that you existed.

0:14:13.925 --> 0:14:17.845
<v Speaker 2>So he was a father of three children, and the

0:14:17.885 --> 0:14:20.725
<v Speaker 2>youngest one was pretty small, and the oldest one was

0:14:20.765 --> 0:14:23.365
<v Speaker 2>like maybe in middle school, So you know, he was

0:14:23.365 --> 0:14:26.165
<v Speaker 2>in a phase of life that you know, also was complicated.

0:14:26.205 --> 0:14:29.365
<v Speaker 2>He had every ability to be like, oh, he'll no,

0:14:29.805 --> 0:14:33.365
<v Speaker 2>this is not going to work, and he didn't. And

0:14:33.685 --> 0:14:35.565
<v Speaker 2>I had already written a letter, and I had asked

0:14:35.645 --> 0:14:38.685
<v Speaker 2>the sperm bank when he made contact to forward that letter.

0:14:39.245 --> 0:14:41.485
<v Speaker 2>I had in my mom's and her folder. I had

0:14:41.565 --> 0:14:44.285
<v Speaker 2>read so many stories of people who were just outright

0:14:44.405 --> 0:14:48.445
<v Speaker 2>rejected by their biological parent, and it ended up becoming

0:14:48.445 --> 0:14:49.765
<v Speaker 2>a fear of mine and I was like, if I

0:14:49.805 --> 0:14:51.725
<v Speaker 2>only have one chance, like I want to be able

0:14:51.725 --> 0:14:55.645
<v Speaker 2>to convey who I am through a letter, and if

0:14:55.685 --> 0:14:57.925
<v Speaker 2>that's all he ever sees and reads, like, maybe that'll

0:14:57.965 --> 0:15:00.965
<v Speaker 2>be enough. And we ended up connecting and then it

0:15:01.005 --> 0:15:03.325
<v Speaker 2>turned to email. I would forward an email to the

0:15:03.365 --> 0:15:05.565
<v Speaker 2>sperm bank, the sperm bank would forward him, and that

0:15:05.685 --> 0:15:08.125
<v Speaker 2>was it, and then we cut them out and then

0:15:08.325 --> 0:15:11.405
<v Speaker 2>ended up talking on the just like forever. And then

0:15:11.525 --> 0:15:13.845
<v Speaker 2>I was living in Austin and college at this time,

0:15:14.085 --> 0:15:16.125
<v Speaker 2>and he flew down to meet me for the first time.

0:15:16.445 --> 0:15:19.605
<v Speaker 2>What was that Like, Oh, I was amazing. I mean

0:15:19.645 --> 0:15:22.085
<v Speaker 2>I was. He came to my apartment and I just

0:15:22.125 --> 0:15:23.605
<v Speaker 2>I opened the door and it was just like a

0:15:23.845 --> 0:15:28.165
<v Speaker 2>huge hug and just we stayed for hours talking in

0:15:28.245 --> 0:15:30.445
<v Speaker 2>my living room and then went to dinner and live

0:15:30.525 --> 0:15:33.845
<v Speaker 2>music and it was just catching up on at this

0:15:33.885 --> 0:15:38.245
<v Speaker 2>point nineteen years. I think because I didn't I didn't

0:15:38.285 --> 0:15:40.605
<v Speaker 2>have any expectations. I didn't know how it was supposed

0:15:40.645 --> 0:15:43.405
<v Speaker 2>to go. And because he is who he is, which

0:15:43.445 --> 0:15:46.525
<v Speaker 2>is just this like amazing open person and I am

0:15:46.565 --> 0:15:49.245
<v Speaker 2>who I am, Like it just worked and it was

0:15:49.325 --> 0:15:52.765
<v Speaker 2>that weekend, the first weekend of meeting him, we ran

0:15:52.805 --> 0:15:54.805
<v Speaker 2>into a friend, one of my friends on the street,

0:15:54.925 --> 0:15:57.845
<v Speaker 2>and just for social clarity, I was like, oh, this

0:15:57.885 --> 0:16:00.045
<v Speaker 2>is my dad. And at the end of that he

0:16:00.165 --> 0:16:02.165
<v Speaker 2>was like, if you will call me that, I'm okay

0:16:02.205 --> 0:16:04.765
<v Speaker 2>with that. And then from that moment one.

0:16:04.405 --> 0:16:07.205
<v Speaker 1>He was dad, and you had three new little siblings.

0:16:07.565 --> 0:16:09.725
<v Speaker 2>I did, but they didn't know yet. They didn't know

0:16:09.805 --> 0:16:10.845
<v Speaker 2>until much later.

0:16:11.125 --> 0:16:14.045
<v Speaker 1>Again, it's a tricky conversation with the little kids. So

0:16:14.085 --> 0:16:16.485
<v Speaker 1>her dad was high in college and he jumped off

0:16:16.525 --> 0:16:19.365
<v Speaker 1>into a cop one day for twenty bucks.

0:16:19.885 --> 0:16:24.805
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but for him, you know, it's also he had

0:16:24.805 --> 0:16:26.605
<v Speaker 2>to tell his wife and then I don't know if

0:16:26.605 --> 0:16:28.965
<v Speaker 2>it ever really came up, like you know, while they

0:16:28.965 --> 0:16:32.005
<v Speaker 2>were dating, it never really came up. So he had

0:16:32.045 --> 0:16:35.485
<v Speaker 2>to tell her. And I totally get this. You know,

0:16:35.525 --> 0:16:38.165
<v Speaker 2>as a mother of three myself, I would be pretty

0:16:38.165 --> 0:16:43.325
<v Speaker 2>protective too, So I really understood her desire to not

0:16:43.365 --> 0:16:45.445
<v Speaker 2>want to tell the kids right away, and so it

0:16:45.565 --> 0:16:49.965
<v Speaker 2>took multiple years for them to disclose me to them.

0:16:50.565 --> 0:16:52.605
<v Speaker 2>I feel like this is happens in donor conception a

0:16:52.605 --> 0:16:55.365
<v Speaker 2>lot with parents that disclose when when they're older and

0:16:55.445 --> 0:16:57.925
<v Speaker 2>everybody's nervous and like, oh my gosh, this is going

0:16:58.005 --> 0:16:59.765
<v Speaker 2>to go so bad. They're gonna like freak out and

0:16:59.805 --> 0:17:02.485
<v Speaker 2>never talk to us again. And they told the kids,

0:17:02.965 --> 0:17:04.725
<v Speaker 2>and my sister was like, oh my god, I have

0:17:04.765 --> 0:17:08.205
<v Speaker 2>a sister. And then the two boys were like, that's cool.

0:17:08.245 --> 0:17:08.965
<v Speaker 2>What's for dinner?

0:17:09.605 --> 0:17:09.725
<v Speaker 1>Yea?

0:17:10.005 --> 0:17:12.485
<v Speaker 2>And my dad's like that's it and they're like yeah,

0:17:12.565 --> 0:17:14.245
<v Speaker 2>I mean do we get to like meter or something

0:17:14.285 --> 0:17:16.605
<v Speaker 2>like that? Sounds cool? And they're like, oh my god.

0:17:17.285 --> 0:17:22.445
<v Speaker 1>It never ceases to delight me how disinterested kids are

0:17:22.485 --> 0:17:23.965
<v Speaker 1>in their parents' lives.

0:17:25.445 --> 0:17:29.205
<v Speaker 2>I know, right, it's all our social construct in projection.

0:17:29.565 --> 0:17:33.645
<v Speaker 1>What was your relationship like with your dad's wife, Like,

0:17:33.805 --> 0:17:35.725
<v Speaker 1>and I imagine you have this experience as well with

0:17:35.765 --> 0:17:38.685
<v Speaker 1>the work that you do meeting a lot of donor kids.

0:17:39.285 --> 0:17:43.045
<v Speaker 1>The relationship with the partner of the donum must be

0:17:43.205 --> 0:17:44.445
<v Speaker 1>often fraud.

0:17:44.245 --> 0:17:47.165
<v Speaker 2>Is it? You know? I think in this instance, like

0:17:47.245 --> 0:17:50.325
<v Speaker 2>I could recognize the level of protectiveness, and I was

0:17:50.405 --> 0:17:54.485
<v Speaker 2>really leaning on dad to kind of facilitate that relationship

0:17:54.565 --> 0:17:57.325
<v Speaker 2>because I didn't want obviously to push. But I think

0:17:57.325 --> 0:17:59.525
<v Speaker 2>that they did a really good job of keeping it separate.

0:18:00.005 --> 0:18:02.405
<v Speaker 2>I didn't really get to have a lot of interaction

0:18:02.525 --> 0:18:05.405
<v Speaker 2>with her until my wedding. I think that really kind

0:18:05.405 --> 0:18:08.005
<v Speaker 2>of changed our relationship. We really didn't have a lot

0:18:08.005 --> 0:18:11.245
<v Speaker 2>of interface, you know, geograph. We lived in different parts

0:18:11.285 --> 0:18:14.245
<v Speaker 2>of the country. It was always quite an effort to

0:18:14.365 --> 0:18:16.565
<v Speaker 2>visit on either one of our parts.

0:18:17.205 --> 0:18:21.045
<v Speaker 1>After this short break, Eve makes another unsettling discovery that

0:18:21.125 --> 0:18:30.045
<v Speaker 1>will change her life forever. Your relationship with your dad progressed.

0:18:30.045 --> 0:18:32.925
<v Speaker 1>As you say, he officiated at your wedding. He did,

0:18:33.685 --> 0:18:36.365
<v Speaker 1>so you stayed in touch over the next few years.

0:18:37.085 --> 0:18:40.365
<v Speaker 1>The next installment of this story, and the plot twist

0:18:40.565 --> 0:18:43.765
<v Speaker 1>comes when you go on to have children of your

0:18:43.805 --> 0:18:46.885
<v Speaker 1>own and your son becomes sick. What happened to him?

0:18:47.325 --> 0:18:50.525
<v Speaker 2>So my oldest when he was a baby, he was

0:18:50.605 --> 0:18:54.045
<v Speaker 2>vomiting a lot, and he wasn't eating real food, and

0:18:54.085 --> 0:18:55.885
<v Speaker 2>there were all of these things that all of our

0:18:55.925 --> 0:18:58.845
<v Speaker 2>doctors were like, you know, these allergies, and no one

0:18:58.845 --> 0:19:01.765
<v Speaker 2>could really figure out what it is. And about three

0:19:01.805 --> 0:19:03.845
<v Speaker 2>years of all of that, I was like, we got

0:19:03.885 --> 0:19:06.765
<v Speaker 2>to do something different. They recommended looking in more into

0:19:06.805 --> 0:19:09.205
<v Speaker 2>like genetics, and so I was working with this functional

0:19:09.525 --> 0:19:12.485
<v Speaker 2>in doctor and he was like, let's get some info

0:19:12.525 --> 0:19:15.485
<v Speaker 2>on your DNA. The easiest way to do that at

0:19:15.485 --> 0:19:17.765
<v Speaker 2>the time was the commercial DNA test twenty three and

0:19:17.805 --> 0:19:20.085
<v Speaker 2>ME plus health and he'd get what was called raw data.

0:19:20.765 --> 0:19:24.685
<v Speaker 2>So we did that and he called back and he said, hey, Eve,

0:19:24.965 --> 0:19:29.125
<v Speaker 2>it's Celiac disease. And I was like what. I had

0:19:29.205 --> 0:19:32.325
<v Speaker 2>no idea what Celiac disease was. I had no idea

0:19:32.365 --> 0:19:35.005
<v Speaker 2>what an autoimmune disorder was. And he's like, yeah, that's

0:19:35.005 --> 0:19:37.445
<v Speaker 2>what it is, and it's coming from you. And I

0:19:37.485 --> 0:19:39.925
<v Speaker 2>was like, what are you talking about. He's like, you

0:19:39.925 --> 0:19:42.485
<v Speaker 2>need to go get better family history from you know,

0:19:42.605 --> 0:19:45.725
<v Speaker 2>your biological father and biological mother. And so I'm in

0:19:45.725 --> 0:19:49.125
<v Speaker 2>my family, like, who has these stomach issues in coeliac

0:19:49.165 --> 0:19:49.805
<v Speaker 2>and allergies.

0:19:49.965 --> 0:19:51.885
<v Speaker 1>No one, because it's hereditary.

0:19:52.165 --> 0:19:54.525
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's turn serious. So the bigger thing at

0:19:54.525 --> 0:19:57.845
<v Speaker 2>the time was like, Okay, now we know a diagnosis

0:19:57.885 --> 0:20:00.565
<v Speaker 2>is a prognosis, right, And so I was so focused

0:20:00.565 --> 0:20:03.605
<v Speaker 2>on just making my son healthy. The second part of

0:20:03.645 --> 0:20:06.245
<v Speaker 2>this is that there's an ancestry component to the commercial

0:20:06.325 --> 0:20:08.565
<v Speaker 2>DNA testing. And I don't know if you're familiar with

0:20:08.605 --> 0:20:12.605
<v Speaker 2>the platform, but a lot of my DNA connections were

0:20:12.645 --> 0:20:16.285
<v Speaker 2>saying things like close family to first cousins, and so

0:20:16.525 --> 0:20:20.685
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't really thinking half sibling because I guess I

0:20:20.725 --> 0:20:22.525
<v Speaker 2>just assumed it was a perfect science and would say

0:20:22.525 --> 0:20:23.125
<v Speaker 2>half sibling.

0:20:23.445 --> 0:20:25.525
<v Speaker 1>So it was one of those like twenty three and

0:20:25.645 --> 0:20:29.045
<v Speaker 1>Me or ancestry dot Com that you do the test

0:20:29.205 --> 0:20:32.365
<v Speaker 1>and then they show you who all your relatives my bay.

0:20:32.725 --> 0:20:36.565
<v Speaker 2>Right, those who have also taken the test and at

0:20:36.565 --> 0:20:39.485
<v Speaker 2>about you. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And I

0:20:39.565 --> 0:20:42.445
<v Speaker 2>knew from talking with California cr ibink that dad was

0:20:42.485 --> 0:20:44.525
<v Speaker 2>a popular spirm downer, but they had told me that

0:20:44.565 --> 0:20:46.285
<v Speaker 2>I was one of the older ones, you know. I

0:20:46.325 --> 0:20:47.885
<v Speaker 2>was like, sure, I'm sure this will be happening, but

0:20:47.925 --> 0:20:49.525
<v Speaker 2>it was still newer at this time. This was like

0:20:49.525 --> 0:20:52.845
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and eighteen, and so you know, you just

0:20:52.845 --> 0:20:54.965
<v Speaker 2>don't know what you don't know. So we go on

0:20:55.045 --> 0:20:59.245
<v Speaker 2>vacation and my mom is actually with me and she's like, hey, Eve,

0:20:59.605 --> 0:21:02.445
<v Speaker 2>I actually think those are your half siblings. Like, you know,

0:21:02.485 --> 0:21:05.325
<v Speaker 2>look at like the degree in which you're related, and

0:21:05.365 --> 0:21:08.365
<v Speaker 2>it could be like a different each number is for

0:21:08.445 --> 0:21:11.645
<v Speaker 2>something different, and so then I was like, oh my gosh.

0:21:11.685 --> 0:21:14.365
<v Speaker 2>So then I'm like, you know, on social media, and

0:21:14.405 --> 0:21:17.125
<v Speaker 2>I'm sending the messages through the platform and I connected

0:21:17.165 --> 0:21:22.205
<v Speaker 2>with one and bless his sweet little heart. He is

0:21:22.445 --> 0:21:25.765
<v Speaker 2>from my area where I grew up, and he was like, no,

0:21:26.285 --> 0:21:29.245
<v Speaker 2>I know who you know our dad is and I

0:21:29.285 --> 0:21:30.765
<v Speaker 2>was like, no, no, no, that's our mom's doctor that

0:21:30.805 --> 0:21:34.605
<v Speaker 2>did the insemination, Steve Donner when I six from Oregon.

0:21:34.645 --> 0:21:38.005
<v Speaker 2>He's our biological father. But I don't want to project

0:21:38.165 --> 0:21:40.125
<v Speaker 2>my story onto you guys, so I'm going to have

0:21:40.205 --> 0:21:42.245
<v Speaker 2>him do that DNA test and then you guys can

0:21:42.245 --> 0:21:45.045
<v Speaker 2>figure out if y'all want a relationship. And honestly, I

0:21:45.085 --> 0:21:48.045
<v Speaker 2>just thought he was love you, Andrew, but a redneck

0:21:48.245 --> 0:21:51.445
<v Speaker 2>that just wasn't very smart. And so that was that one.

0:21:51.805 --> 0:21:53.725
<v Speaker 2>And then I kept going down, you know, the list

0:21:54.485 --> 0:21:57.085
<v Speaker 2>of connecting others siblings, and then I came up with

0:21:57.165 --> 0:21:59.885
<v Speaker 2>one who wasn't on social media, but I found him

0:21:59.925 --> 0:22:04.005
<v Speaker 2>on LinkedIn and it was late at night. I messaged

0:22:04.045 --> 0:22:06.925
<v Speaker 2>him and was like, hey, are you the Adam on

0:22:07.005 --> 0:22:09.325
<v Speaker 2>twenty three and me? And he's like yes. I was like,

0:22:09.405 --> 0:22:10.685
<v Speaker 2>I need to talk to you, and he's like, well,

0:22:10.725 --> 0:22:12.765
<v Speaker 2>I think it'd be kind of hard to explain to

0:22:12.845 --> 0:22:14.365
<v Speaker 2>my wife why I need to get out of bed

0:22:14.445 --> 0:22:17.285
<v Speaker 2>to call another woman. I was like, oh, to totally

0:22:17.325 --> 0:22:19.525
<v Speaker 2>get that. I just think I'm like, you're half sibling,

0:22:19.965 --> 0:22:23.485
<v Speaker 2>so just call me tomorrow and my phone immediately rain

0:22:23.805 --> 0:22:28.365
<v Speaker 2>and he's like, okay, you have my attention. Yeah, impulsivity

0:22:28.565 --> 0:22:32.125
<v Speaker 2>was not my future of that night, but yeah, he

0:22:32.285 --> 0:22:34.045
<v Speaker 2>is the one that I talked to you, and I

0:22:34.085 --> 0:22:36.365
<v Speaker 2>thought that you know so much of when you're donor

0:22:36.405 --> 0:22:40.245
<v Speaker 2>conceived or you're non parent expected result, there's always someone

0:22:40.365 --> 0:22:43.885
<v Speaker 2>that is delivering that news right or putting the pieces

0:22:43.885 --> 0:22:48.245
<v Speaker 2>together when it comes out of these platforms. I was like,

0:22:48.245 --> 0:22:50.325
<v Speaker 2>we're donor conceived and he's like, no, there's no way.

0:22:50.365 --> 0:22:52.845
<v Speaker 2>I look like my dad. That's our white story. I

0:22:52.885 --> 0:22:55.085
<v Speaker 2>have a brother. Okay, so we go this whole thing

0:22:55.125 --> 0:22:56.165
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, all right, and you.

0:22:56.125 --> 0:22:57.165
<v Speaker 1>Just thought he was in denial.

0:22:57.325 --> 0:22:58.645
<v Speaker 2>I thought he was in denial. I mean, and most

0:22:58.645 --> 0:23:01.205
<v Speaker 2>suppose people are right like this stream on the internet

0:23:01.245 --> 0:23:03.805
<v Speaker 2>and like this is weird. So I was like, okay,

0:23:04.045 --> 0:23:06.445
<v Speaker 2>so if you are my first cousin, and that means

0:23:06.565 --> 0:23:10.645
<v Speaker 2>that your uncle is my biological father, is your uncle

0:23:10.965 --> 0:23:15.085
<v Speaker 2>Steve Shoul And he said no, my uncle is Kim mcmaury's.

0:23:16.005 --> 0:23:21.725
<v Speaker 2>And my world stopped because Kim mcmaury's is doctor Kim

0:23:21.805 --> 0:23:25.365
<v Speaker 2>mcmoury's and was my mom's fertility doctor. And at that

0:23:25.525 --> 0:23:28.845
<v Speaker 2>time I knew it was like everything just kind of

0:23:28.845 --> 0:23:31.125
<v Speaker 2>made sense, even like the little red flags that I've

0:23:31.165 --> 0:23:34.885
<v Speaker 2>been seeing before, like the timeline's not matching up. And

0:23:34.925 --> 0:23:38.245
<v Speaker 2>then it was wow, like I know that people lie

0:23:38.645 --> 0:23:42.005
<v Speaker 2>and DNA doesn't lie, and it was just starting all

0:23:42.045 --> 0:23:44.325
<v Speaker 2>over again, and it was the truth.

0:23:44.845 --> 0:23:47.885
<v Speaker 1>After you hung up the phone, What was going through

0:23:47.925 --> 0:23:48.645
<v Speaker 1>your head.

0:23:49.365 --> 0:23:51.605
<v Speaker 2>A little bit like when I was sixteen years old,

0:23:51.605 --> 0:23:55.925
<v Speaker 2>of that moment of I am onto something very big

0:23:56.445 --> 0:24:00.445
<v Speaker 2>that is going to impact more than just myself. I

0:24:00.485 --> 0:24:05.325
<v Speaker 2>remember literally downing my glass of wine and deciding all

0:24:05.365 --> 0:24:08.125
<v Speaker 2>over again because my mom was upstairs watching a movie

0:24:08.165 --> 0:24:11.445
<v Speaker 2>with my in laws. And my choice was to pretend

0:24:11.525 --> 0:24:14.365
<v Speaker 2>like I never discovered this and continue to live a

0:24:14.485 --> 0:24:16.605
<v Speaker 2>fairy tale life with my dad and my mom and

0:24:16.685 --> 0:24:17.725
<v Speaker 2>just pretend like it never.

0:24:17.645 --> 0:24:20.605
<v Speaker 1>Happens, your second dad stave yep, my.

0:24:20.605 --> 0:24:24.765
<v Speaker 2>Second dad, or to go right upstairs, which is what

0:24:24.885 --> 0:24:27.845
<v Speaker 2>I did, like I was sixteen years old, and tell

0:24:27.885 --> 0:24:32.365
<v Speaker 2>her again that my real biological father was her fertility doctor.

0:24:32.765 --> 0:24:36.165
<v Speaker 1>In that moment, did you think, oh, maybe there was

0:24:36.205 --> 0:24:40.205
<v Speaker 1>a mistake or straight away you knew that it had

0:24:40.205 --> 0:24:41.845
<v Speaker 1>been a deliberate.

0:24:41.405 --> 0:24:45.125
<v Speaker 2>Deceit straight away. I knew, how did you know one

0:24:45.165 --> 0:24:49.045
<v Speaker 2>of the half siblings I connected with was thirteen years older,

0:24:49.685 --> 0:24:52.045
<v Speaker 2>and that was kind of my big indicator. The one

0:24:52.085 --> 0:24:55.125
<v Speaker 2>that I had just spoken to was older. And so

0:24:55.245 --> 0:24:58.125
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of like piecing these things together of you know,

0:24:58.165 --> 0:25:02.685
<v Speaker 2>that timeline didn't work. And again, I mean people lie,

0:25:02.925 --> 0:25:04.925
<v Speaker 2>DNA doesn't lie. It's hard to have a level of

0:25:04.965 --> 0:25:08.445
<v Speaker 2>cognitive dissonance. Whenever the DNA is staring straight at you.

0:25:08.445 --> 0:25:10.565
<v Speaker 1>Your mom must have fained. I have stated, how did

0:25:10.605 --> 0:25:13.405
<v Speaker 1>Stave react? Because you had to break then you see him?

0:25:14.085 --> 0:25:18.045
<v Speaker 2>So actually I didn't tell him until weeks later because

0:25:18.445 --> 0:25:21.365
<v Speaker 2>I think there was a small part of me that

0:25:21.485 --> 0:25:24.565
<v Speaker 2>was really hoping that it wasn't true. There was also

0:25:24.845 --> 0:25:27.485
<v Speaker 2>that I knew there was not going to be the

0:25:27.525 --> 0:25:29.885
<v Speaker 2>fairy tale, There was not going to be the relationship

0:25:30.085 --> 0:25:33.725
<v Speaker 2>because I was the one that was protecting the secret,

0:25:33.965 --> 0:25:37.485
<v Speaker 2>and without truth and transparency, there was never going to

0:25:37.525 --> 0:25:40.405
<v Speaker 2>be an authentic relationship with my real biological father if

0:25:40.445 --> 0:25:44.205
<v Speaker 2>I was keeping a secret. I waited until I knew

0:25:44.205 --> 0:25:46.885
<v Speaker 2>that that DNA test the result to ron was there

0:25:47.085 --> 0:25:48.925
<v Speaker 2>the commercial DNA test and then I called him and

0:25:48.925 --> 0:25:50.805
<v Speaker 2>I told him, and it was the hardest part of

0:25:50.845 --> 0:25:53.845
<v Speaker 2>this entire process. But it was like a daddy wound

0:25:53.885 --> 0:25:56.005
<v Speaker 2>just being like ripped open again. I was so afraid

0:25:56.045 --> 0:25:59.645
<v Speaker 2>of rejection. And even though I knew that nothing would

0:25:59.725 --> 0:26:02.365
<v Speaker 2>undo the thirteen years of his building this relationship, I

0:26:02.405 --> 0:26:05.525
<v Speaker 2>was still so worried because so much, you know, I

0:26:05.605 --> 0:26:08.205
<v Speaker 2>initiated this relationship and it was wrong. There was so

0:26:08.365 --> 0:26:11.485
<v Speaker 2>much guilt. And I told him and we just cried

0:26:11.725 --> 0:26:14.565
<v Speaker 2>and cried and cried, and at the very end of it,

0:26:14.605 --> 0:26:16.245
<v Speaker 2>he said, you know, it changes some things, but it

0:26:16.285 --> 0:26:18.285
<v Speaker 2>doesn't change the fact that you're my daughter, and it's

0:26:18.285 --> 0:26:21.245
<v Speaker 2>all I need to do, you know. That was it

0:26:21.285 --> 0:26:22.725
<v Speaker 2>was like, and I support you know, whatever you do,

0:26:22.805 --> 0:26:25.045
<v Speaker 2>but I think that you know, for me, I was

0:26:25.085 --> 0:26:28.565
<v Speaker 2>so shocked by it. But was more shocking is that

0:26:28.885 --> 0:26:31.725
<v Speaker 2>you know, in talking to my attorneys that it wasn't

0:26:31.765 --> 0:26:34.925
<v Speaker 2>a crime. And so how is it that we know

0:26:35.045 --> 0:26:39.005
<v Speaker 2>that this is morally wrong, but this is not legally wrong.

0:26:39.085 --> 0:26:42.245
<v Speaker 2>And so when morality doesn't equal legality, what do you

0:26:42.365 --> 0:26:42.925
<v Speaker 2>do with it?

0:26:43.245 --> 0:26:48.565
<v Speaker 1>So hold on one second, it wasn't legally wrong for

0:26:48.725 --> 0:26:54.085
<v Speaker 1>your mother's fertility doctor to go into another room masturvating

0:26:54.085 --> 0:26:58.805
<v Speaker 1>a cup, come back and put the DNA of someone

0:26:58.885 --> 0:27:03.285
<v Speaker 1>she hasn't consented to being inseminated with into your mother's

0:27:03.285 --> 0:27:06.885
<v Speaker 1>body without ever telling her or getting her consent.

0:27:07.365 --> 0:27:10.085
<v Speaker 2>Correct, there was no civil laws of it, and there

0:27:10.165 --> 0:27:13.605
<v Speaker 2>was no criminal cause of action for this. Remember earlier

0:27:13.725 --> 0:27:18.045
<v Speaker 2>when I talked about anonymity breeds fraud. He can hide

0:27:18.085 --> 0:27:22.605
<v Speaker 2>behind an anonymous sperm donor, even though the informed consent

0:27:22.925 --> 0:27:26.045
<v Speaker 2>was for donor one oh six from California Crybank. And

0:27:26.085 --> 0:27:28.805
<v Speaker 2>the answer is because, quite frankly, we do not have

0:27:28.885 --> 0:27:29.845
<v Speaker 2>laws against it.

0:27:30.165 --> 0:27:32.925
<v Speaker 1>So did you confront this doctor? What did you do?

0:27:33.405 --> 0:27:37.445
<v Speaker 2>It? Did? So? I've also known this man of pretty

0:27:37.525 --> 0:27:39.805
<v Speaker 2>much my entire life. You know, he is a pillar

0:27:40.085 --> 0:27:43.925
<v Speaker 2>in our community. People love him, you know, he's one

0:27:43.965 --> 0:27:46.405
<v Speaker 2>of the very few doctors in East Texas that was

0:27:46.445 --> 0:27:50.925
<v Speaker 2>an OV. You know. Everybody loves him. And I did

0:27:50.965 --> 0:27:53.965
<v Speaker 2>everything by writing told him that I am his through

0:27:54.005 --> 0:27:56.845
<v Speaker 2>commercial study testing, I am his daughter, and he wrote

0:27:56.925 --> 0:27:59.885
<v Speaker 2>me back, just the smoke and mirror show. You know,

0:27:59.925 --> 0:28:02.765
<v Speaker 2>it appears that you would have inherited some of my genetics.

0:28:03.405 --> 0:28:05.485
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, yeah, dumb ass, fifty percent of

0:28:05.525 --> 0:28:08.005
<v Speaker 2>them like kind of know that works, and then he

0:28:08.045 --> 0:28:09.765
<v Speaker 2>went on this whole thing of like, oh, I used

0:28:09.765 --> 0:28:13.005
<v Speaker 2>a mylex cup in this syringe, and in my donor program,

0:28:13.285 --> 0:28:17.245
<v Speaker 2>you know, there were five successful pregnancies, three ended with

0:28:17.405 --> 0:28:21.725
<v Speaker 2>you know, spontaneous miscarriage, and two offspring. And I was like, well,

0:28:21.725 --> 0:28:24.365
<v Speaker 2>that's funny because I'm looking at commercial DNA testing and

0:28:24.405 --> 0:28:26.325
<v Speaker 2>I can see that I have five half siblings. So

0:28:26.565 --> 0:28:29.765
<v Speaker 2>immediately I knew he was lying yeah. And then I

0:28:29.805 --> 0:28:31.565
<v Speaker 2>was like, okay, well you want to play, let's go.

0:28:31.925 --> 0:28:35.365
<v Speaker 2>So it just became more correspondence where he would say

0:28:35.365 --> 0:28:37.045
<v Speaker 2>something and then I would poke a hole in it.

0:28:37.245 --> 0:28:38.645
<v Speaker 1>He fucked with the wrong woman.

0:28:39.125 --> 0:28:41.685
<v Speaker 2>He fucked with the wrong woman. He did, and he

0:28:41.845 --> 0:28:43.605
<v Speaker 2>knows that now and it was a hard lesson for

0:28:43.685 --> 0:28:45.485
<v Speaker 2>him to learn, but by god, did he learn it.

0:28:46.565 --> 0:28:48.205
<v Speaker 2>And I really think that he thought I would just

0:28:48.245 --> 0:28:51.565
<v Speaker 2>buy as bullshit, and like maybe I wasn't smart enough,

0:28:51.725 --> 0:28:53.285
<v Speaker 2>or you know, I think he so used to being

0:28:53.325 --> 0:28:57.085
<v Speaker 2>the authority and where he lives that you know, my god,

0:28:57.125 --> 0:28:58.405
<v Speaker 2>no woman would challenge him.

0:28:58.805 --> 0:28:58.965
<v Speaker 1>Oh.

0:28:58.965 --> 0:29:00.885
<v Speaker 2>There was one line that was so cringe, you know,

0:29:00.965 --> 0:29:03.365
<v Speaker 2>it was it was a pleasure to be able to

0:29:03.525 --> 0:29:06.565
<v Speaker 2>deliver a baby girl to my mother and my father,

0:29:07.285 --> 0:29:09.285
<v Speaker 2>and you know I should just be grateful. Well then

0:29:09.565 --> 0:29:12.805
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, okay, well I want medical information because now, like,

0:29:12.925 --> 0:29:14.605
<v Speaker 2>not only did you fuck with me, but it's now

0:29:14.645 --> 0:29:18.245
<v Speaker 2>it's my kid. Now Mama Bear is mad. There's medical information.

0:29:18.285 --> 0:29:20.845
<v Speaker 2>I would have made different medical decisions on my child.

0:29:21.405 --> 0:29:23.885
<v Speaker 2>He didn't need all of those exploratory surgeries had we

0:29:23.965 --> 0:29:26.725
<v Speaker 2>have known what it was in the first place. So

0:29:26.805 --> 0:29:29.925
<v Speaker 2>then he sends me this response of like, my I

0:29:29.925 --> 0:29:32.965
<v Speaker 2>call him social kids. He says, his kids, his known kids.

0:29:33.485 --> 0:29:35.645
<v Speaker 2>You know, they're all iron men and they're doctors. And

0:29:35.645 --> 0:29:37.325
<v Speaker 2>it was just a brag list. And I was like, well,

0:29:37.325 --> 0:29:40.085
<v Speaker 2>you forgot the fact that you had cancer like melanoma,

0:29:40.205 --> 0:29:42.085
<v Speaker 2>or that my brother had a brain tumor, like it

0:29:42.125 --> 0:29:45.085
<v Speaker 2>was nothing a substance. So we just kind of kept going,

0:29:45.485 --> 0:29:48.005
<v Speaker 2>and I'm pissed, right, but there was still part of me,

0:29:48.205 --> 0:29:52.525
<v Speaker 2>like I still wanted to know him. I still Pollyanna

0:29:52.685 --> 0:29:55.765
<v Speaker 2>was like, you know what, we could totally work through this,

0:29:56.005 --> 0:29:58.525
<v Speaker 2>and your dad the doctor the doctor. I was like,

0:29:58.565 --> 0:30:00.445
<v Speaker 2>we could totally work through this, and the only way

0:30:00.485 --> 0:30:02.605
<v Speaker 2>to do that was to level the playing field. So

0:30:02.685 --> 0:30:04.965
<v Speaker 2>I told him, I said, I am going to be

0:30:05.005 --> 0:30:08.085
<v Speaker 2>going to the Texas Legislature and I'm going to be

0:30:08.125 --> 0:30:10.085
<v Speaker 2>lobbying to make this a crime because if this is

0:30:10.125 --> 0:30:13.125
<v Speaker 2>the thinking at the time, it was wrong and it

0:30:13.165 --> 0:30:17.125
<v Speaker 2>needs to be criminalized. So let's make this bigger than ourselves.

0:30:17.325 --> 0:30:19.765
<v Speaker 2>What a beautiful way for us to do this together

0:30:19.965 --> 0:30:21.605
<v Speaker 2>and to be able to share that message. And we

0:30:21.605 --> 0:30:23.765
<v Speaker 2>could and we could do it like if you really cared.

0:30:24.445 --> 0:30:26.165
<v Speaker 2>And then, of course I never heard from them.

0:30:26.645 --> 0:30:28.605
<v Speaker 1>So did he try to claim that your mom knew

0:30:28.645 --> 0:30:31.245
<v Speaker 1>about it and that it was his sperm? Or he

0:30:31.365 --> 0:30:36.485
<v Speaker 1>admitted that, yeah, I just used mine, Because why did

0:30:36.525 --> 0:30:37.525
<v Speaker 1>he ever tell you why?

0:30:38.285 --> 0:30:41.285
<v Speaker 2>So he said that he was mixing it. And he

0:30:41.565 --> 0:30:45.085
<v Speaker 2>said that he was a sperm donor when he was

0:30:45.125 --> 0:30:48.605
<v Speaker 2>in college, so that would have been about twelve thirteen

0:30:48.685 --> 0:30:51.925
<v Speaker 2>years before I was conceived. And so he went to

0:30:52.165 --> 0:30:56.325
<v Speaker 2>his former medical school and he got his old Dustys

0:30:56.485 --> 0:30:59.685
<v Speaker 2>sperm vials, drove them to his clinic in East Texas,

0:30:59.965 --> 0:31:02.445
<v Speaker 2>and that is what he used because Donor one oh

0:31:02.565 --> 0:31:05.245
<v Speaker 2>six wasn't performing like it should have been.

0:31:05.645 --> 0:31:08.645
<v Speaker 1>How many children did he father this way? Or you

0:31:08.725 --> 0:31:09.605
<v Speaker 1>don't know the.

0:31:09.565 --> 0:31:13.125
<v Speaker 2>Truth is we don't know. I currently have fourteen half siblings,

0:31:13.245 --> 0:31:15.285
<v Speaker 2>three of those are his social children.

0:31:15.725 --> 0:31:19.005
<v Speaker 1>When you say social children, you mean children that he

0:31:19.485 --> 0:31:21.765
<v Speaker 1>can saved with his partner.

0:31:21.725 --> 0:31:24.485
<v Speaker 2>Correct, that are known socially as.

0:31:24.285 --> 0:31:26.765
<v Speaker 1>His And how did the rest feel about it? How

0:31:26.765 --> 0:31:27.925
<v Speaker 1>did they all find out.

0:31:28.005 --> 0:31:31.605
<v Speaker 2>Same way commercial DNA testing. Several of them saw me

0:31:31.685 --> 0:31:34.285
<v Speaker 2>on TV and saw his picture and saw me, and

0:31:34.645 --> 0:31:36.445
<v Speaker 2>I was like, whoa, I kind of look like that.

0:31:37.165 --> 0:31:41.405
<v Speaker 2>The mcmory's features are pretty defining. I am like kind

0:31:41.445 --> 0:31:44.125
<v Speaker 2>of outlier in the sense that I'm not over six

0:31:44.125 --> 0:31:47.845
<v Speaker 2>feet tall, but all of my siblings are between like

0:31:48.045 --> 0:31:50.805
<v Speaker 2>six feet and like six six even the women are

0:31:50.805 --> 0:31:53.245
<v Speaker 2>like six to six two, very tall. I'm just like

0:31:53.325 --> 0:31:56.805
<v Speaker 2>the little, like five seven short chihuahua. I'm just really loud.

0:31:57.045 --> 0:31:58.925
<v Speaker 1>You were the rumpt.

0:32:01.045 --> 0:32:03.645
<v Speaker 2>It literally like you have those like this and pictures

0:32:03.685 --> 0:32:04.565
<v Speaker 2>and there's I'm.

0:32:04.485 --> 0:32:06.965
<v Speaker 1>Seven is not that small, but if everyone else is

0:32:07.005 --> 0:32:10.165
<v Speaker 1>six foot two, then it's see.

0:32:10.005 --> 0:32:14.045
<v Speaker 2>Us hall in a few we actually found So I

0:32:14.165 --> 0:32:17.525
<v Speaker 2>connected with some former people that worked with him during

0:32:17.525 --> 0:32:19.765
<v Speaker 2>the time, and I was able to get a pretty

0:32:19.805 --> 0:32:23.685
<v Speaker 2>accurate historical context of just how large his program was.

0:32:24.125 --> 0:32:26.725
<v Speaker 2>So he was seeing between fifty to sixty women a day,

0:32:27.325 --> 0:32:31.845
<v Speaker 2>and they couldn't determine the percentage of those that were

0:32:31.845 --> 0:32:34.085
<v Speaker 2>infertility patients, but they said that it was a lot.

0:32:35.005 --> 0:32:38.525
<v Speaker 2>One of them found out what he was doing and quit.

0:32:39.325 --> 0:32:41.445
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, they kind of pieced together a lot of it.

0:32:42.045 --> 0:32:46.285
<v Speaker 2>I went through yearbooks in the area and, like I said,

0:32:46.285 --> 0:32:49.245
<v Speaker 2>defining features, and then people would send me names like hey,

0:32:49.325 --> 0:32:51.445
<v Speaker 2>this person kind of looks like you. And that's how

0:32:51.445 --> 0:32:53.445
<v Speaker 2>we found several of them, is me reaching out to

0:32:53.525 --> 0:32:56.165
<v Speaker 2>them saying, this is kind of weird, but I think

0:32:56.285 --> 0:32:58.485
<v Speaker 2>maybe my sibling, can I send you a DNA test?

0:32:58.645 --> 0:33:00.565
<v Speaker 2>And so that's what I ultimately did.

0:33:01.085 --> 0:33:03.485
<v Speaker 1>When you were in public, you did an interview with

0:33:03.565 --> 0:33:08.245
<v Speaker 1>the Kinnifas Program twenty twenty. What was the reaction in

0:33:08.285 --> 0:33:12.005
<v Speaker 1>your community? Where was this pillar of the community. He's

0:33:12.365 --> 0:33:13.605
<v Speaker 1>a religious man, I.

0:33:13.525 --> 0:33:15.165
<v Speaker 2>Believe very religious.

0:33:15.285 --> 0:33:18.325
<v Speaker 1>Did he stop practicing? Was he shunned? What happened?

0:33:18.925 --> 0:33:25.125
<v Speaker 2>His preacher called me that was the first thing that happened. Wow, No,

0:33:25.325 --> 0:33:28.845
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't. There was a big service where you know,

0:33:28.885 --> 0:33:31.525
<v Speaker 2>he was just doing the Lord's work. And I should

0:33:31.565 --> 0:33:34.205
<v Speaker 2>just be grateful because I have his wonderful genetics, and

0:33:34.245 --> 0:33:36.565
<v Speaker 2>I have a duty to honor my mother and my father.

0:33:37.365 --> 0:33:40.925
<v Speaker 2>Except that only fits in that context. Because also you said,

0:33:40.925 --> 0:33:44.885
<v Speaker 2>you're not my father, and I was the devil. I

0:33:45.165 --> 0:33:47.605
<v Speaker 2>was the one that was spitting in the eye of

0:33:47.605 --> 0:33:52.285
<v Speaker 2>the proverbial monster, and his tribe circled around him to

0:33:52.365 --> 0:33:55.405
<v Speaker 2>protect him, and he was just doing the lord's work

0:33:55.685 --> 0:33:58.725
<v Speaker 2>and that was it. And it was honestly the most

0:33:58.765 --> 0:34:03.685
<v Speaker 2>disappointing thing to see my community come out and support

0:34:03.765 --> 0:34:06.285
<v Speaker 2>this man in that capacity when not only do you

0:34:06.445 --> 0:34:10.325
<v Speaker 2>have evidence of it, I am the evidence that for

0:34:10.405 --> 0:34:13.125
<v Speaker 2>people to actually tell me that I should just be

0:34:13.245 --> 0:34:16.725
<v Speaker 2>grateful to be alive, and me to continuously say over

0:34:16.765 --> 0:34:19.565
<v Speaker 2>and over again, I am not talking about being grateful

0:34:19.605 --> 0:34:22.525
<v Speaker 2>to be alive. I am talking about the deception around

0:34:22.525 --> 0:34:26.045
<v Speaker 2>my conception. And that's what happens so much is people

0:34:26.085 --> 0:34:28.645
<v Speaker 2>just immediately go to the end result, you know, they

0:34:28.685 --> 0:34:32.005
<v Speaker 2>want that silver lining and that projection of their uncomfortableness

0:34:32.045 --> 0:34:34.485
<v Speaker 2>back on to me. Most of the community, I would

0:34:34.485 --> 0:34:38.685
<v Speaker 2>say ninety percent was behind him. He did not retire,

0:34:39.205 --> 0:34:42.765
<v Speaker 2>he continued to practice very successfully. With my half brother.

0:34:43.685 --> 0:34:48.085
<v Speaker 2>I ended up filing a medical board complaint and it

0:34:48.125 --> 0:34:51.885
<v Speaker 2>took the Texas Medical Board years to even hear this complaint,

0:34:52.405 --> 0:34:55.645
<v Speaker 2>and they ultimately and of course Abrad Blank's COVID for everything.

0:34:55.925 --> 0:34:58.765
<v Speaker 2>They ultimately ended up voting to take his license. He

0:34:58.805 --> 0:35:02.245
<v Speaker 2>immediately filed a restraining order against the Medical Board and

0:35:02.325 --> 0:35:05.485
<v Speaker 2>a lawsuit, and the lawsuit stated they did not have

0:35:05.565 --> 0:35:08.565
<v Speaker 2>jurisdiction to revoke his license because of a statute of

0:35:08.605 --> 0:35:12.645
<v Speaker 2>limitation understandard level of care. The Medical Board and the

0:35:12.685 --> 0:35:15.685
<v Speaker 2>Attorney General were saying that this is not standard level

0:35:15.685 --> 0:35:18.085
<v Speaker 2>of care, this is unethical conduct and behavior which does

0:35:18.125 --> 0:35:21.325
<v Speaker 2>not carry a seven year statute of limitations, and so

0:35:21.565 --> 0:35:25.005
<v Speaker 2>the judge is not going to hear details of the case.

0:35:25.365 --> 0:35:27.965
<v Speaker 2>All they are deciding is whether the Medical Board has

0:35:28.045 --> 0:35:32.125
<v Speaker 2>jurisdiction to do this or not. It is still in

0:35:32.165 --> 0:35:35.565
<v Speaker 2>the court system. He has lost twice, but he keeps

0:35:35.605 --> 0:35:37.525
<v Speaker 2>appealing it. So it will go up to the Supreme

0:35:37.525 --> 0:35:40.645
<v Speaker 2>Court of Texas. They will send it back down to

0:35:40.685 --> 0:35:44.285
<v Speaker 2>the Thirteenth Court of Appeal, and that judge has already

0:35:44.325 --> 0:35:47.285
<v Speaker 2>told him from day one that her ruling still stands

0:35:47.485 --> 0:35:50.005
<v Speaker 2>and it is a very expensive and long journey for

0:35:50.085 --> 0:35:53.245
<v Speaker 2>him to get his license revoked. So at this point,

0:35:53.605 --> 0:35:57.045
<v Speaker 2>his only accountability as attorney fees.

0:35:57.325 --> 0:35:58.965
<v Speaker 1>So he's still practicing.

0:35:59.525 --> 0:36:04.325
<v Speaker 2>He has since retired within the last year, but has

0:36:04.405 --> 0:36:07.645
<v Speaker 2>a forced early retirement for a seventy something year old man.

0:36:07.845 --> 0:36:09.125
<v Speaker 2>His license is intact.

0:36:09.445 --> 0:36:13.605
<v Speaker 1>Well, of your other siblings and their mothers who were

0:36:13.645 --> 0:36:16.605
<v Speaker 1>all de saved, were they as pissed as you or

0:36:16.645 --> 0:36:17.885
<v Speaker 1>did they want you to let it go?

0:36:18.525 --> 0:36:23.405
<v Speaker 2>Both? So it's interesting. In my sibling pod, I feel

0:36:23.405 --> 0:36:26.165
<v Speaker 2>like we kind of have this difference between the females

0:36:26.165 --> 0:36:29.685
<v Speaker 2>and the males. Most of the males are like whatever,

0:36:30.005 --> 0:36:32.325
<v Speaker 2>Like you know, it could have been so rude, like

0:36:32.405 --> 0:36:34.485
<v Speaker 2>could have been like the janitor or someone off the street.

0:36:35.205 --> 0:36:38.565
<v Speaker 2>The women are not okay with it. But also he

0:36:38.805 --> 0:36:44.325
<v Speaker 2>was some of their doctor, and so he delivered their kids. Oh,

0:36:44.485 --> 0:36:49.085
<v Speaker 2>he did their passengers, he did their breast exams. One

0:36:49.125 --> 0:36:52.005
<v Speaker 2>of our sisters we sent a DNA test to she

0:36:52.165 --> 0:36:55.005
<v Speaker 2>had an emergency surgery that our brother did on her.

0:36:55.205 --> 0:36:59.085
<v Speaker 2>She woke up to the email confirming the DNA results.

0:36:59.125 --> 0:37:02.245
<v Speaker 2>She was our sister, and then she had to when

0:37:02.245 --> 0:37:04.725
<v Speaker 2>our brother came in for the follow up, tell him, hey,

0:37:04.765 --> 0:37:06.685
<v Speaker 2>you know what, you have to transfer my care because

0:37:06.725 --> 0:37:07.685
<v Speaker 2>you're my brother.

0:37:08.085 --> 0:37:09.485
<v Speaker 1>So one of your brothers is a door.

0:37:10.125 --> 0:37:12.965
<v Speaker 2>With my biological father. He took over the practice.

0:37:13.245 --> 0:37:15.365
<v Speaker 1>Is that one of his social kids, that's.

0:37:15.205 --> 0:37:18.045
<v Speaker 2>One of the social kids. For them, they obviously feel

0:37:18.125 --> 0:37:21.285
<v Speaker 2>very strongly about it. But then also they are living

0:37:21.325 --> 0:37:24.525
<v Speaker 2>in that community that supports him, so they are not

0:37:25.045 --> 0:37:29.205
<v Speaker 2>known because of the social implications that it has, and

0:37:29.245 --> 0:37:31.925
<v Speaker 2>to have that level of feedback all of the time

0:37:32.605 --> 0:37:36.085
<v Speaker 2>is difficult for them. But then you also have the

0:37:36.165 --> 0:37:40.445
<v Speaker 2>different dynamics that's in their nuclear family. For them, they

0:37:40.525 --> 0:37:44.245
<v Speaker 2>have the infertile recipient parent who is still alive, so

0:37:44.325 --> 0:37:46.965
<v Speaker 2>they are also protective of that relationship. So they don't

0:37:47.005 --> 0:37:49.125
<v Speaker 2>want to socially come out and say that not only

0:37:49.165 --> 0:37:52.845
<v Speaker 2>their donor deceived, but to reveal the secret of infertility

0:37:53.165 --> 0:37:53.965
<v Speaker 2>of their fathers.

0:37:54.005 --> 0:37:56.485
<v Speaker 1>So there's you know, it's a real spectrum of different

0:37:56.605 --> 0:38:00.885
<v Speaker 1>situations and different emotions and different probably points on that

0:38:01.005 --> 0:38:04.765
<v Speaker 1>journey of understanding and acceptance. I like that you just

0:38:04.805 --> 0:38:07.085
<v Speaker 1>went straight to rage such a mood.

0:38:07.525 --> 0:38:10.485
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh yes, no, it was you a fucket.

0:38:11.885 --> 0:38:16.165
<v Speaker 1>After this shortbreak, you'll discover how Eve intersected with cereal

0:38:16.245 --> 0:38:20.245
<v Speaker 1>sperm donor Jonathan Meyer from the Netflix series The Man

0:38:20.285 --> 0:38:27.525
<v Speaker 1>with a Thousand Kids. The place that I obviously learned

0:38:27.565 --> 0:38:30.525
<v Speaker 1>about you, and even this idea of fertility fraud is

0:38:30.565 --> 0:38:33.605
<v Speaker 1>from the Netflix documentary The Man with a Thousand Children

0:38:34.045 --> 0:38:36.805
<v Speaker 1>can you briefly for people who haven't seen that, because

0:38:36.845 --> 0:38:40.045
<v Speaker 1>when things changed for another group of women who'd been

0:38:40.045 --> 0:38:43.205
<v Speaker 1>the victim of fertility fraud, they found you and you

0:38:43.365 --> 0:38:46.845
<v Speaker 1>really helped them bring this person to justice. Can you

0:38:46.885 --> 0:38:48.845
<v Speaker 1>tell the story of Jonathan Mayer?

0:38:49.365 --> 0:38:52.325
<v Speaker 2>So, I guess I should preface it with how they

0:38:52.405 --> 0:38:55.445
<v Speaker 2>found me. I have been a part of changing eleven

0:38:55.485 --> 0:38:58.565
<v Speaker 2>of the thirteen state laws in the United States that

0:38:58.605 --> 0:39:02.325
<v Speaker 2>criminalize and offers civil causes of actions for fertility fraud.

0:39:02.925 --> 0:39:07.845
<v Speaker 2>And so there was this lovely Australian couple who read

0:39:08.085 --> 0:39:10.765
<v Speaker 2>an article about me, and so they connected with me

0:39:10.965 --> 0:39:13.645
<v Speaker 2>and then got me connected with the other moms, and

0:39:13.765 --> 0:39:15.805
<v Speaker 2>that was I believe at the end of twenty nineteen,

0:39:15.805 --> 0:39:19.285
<v Speaker 2>maybe early twenty twenty, and they just wanted information of

0:39:19.365 --> 0:39:22.565
<v Speaker 2>you know, what can we do, what is the legal landscape?

0:39:22.645 --> 0:39:23.525
<v Speaker 2>Is there something we can do?

0:39:23.725 --> 0:39:26.085
<v Speaker 1>Because they had also been desaved, They.

0:39:25.885 --> 0:39:29.405
<v Speaker 2>Had also been deceived by serial sperm donor, and so

0:39:29.765 --> 0:39:33.845
<v Speaker 2>Jonathan had infiltrated one of the largest sperm banks and

0:39:33.965 --> 0:39:37.645
<v Speaker 2>eleven of the sperm banks, and he was also donating

0:39:37.765 --> 0:39:41.165
<v Speaker 2>on the private market and doing freelance, and so you know,

0:39:41.205 --> 0:39:44.005
<v Speaker 2>they were having hundreds of house siblings and they just

0:39:44.085 --> 0:39:45.565
<v Speaker 2>wanted him to stop.

0:39:45.925 --> 0:39:47.925
<v Speaker 1>And why did they want him to stop? Can you

0:39:47.965 --> 0:39:52.405
<v Speaker 1>explain the danger with unregulation and fertility fraud? What's the

0:39:52.485 --> 0:39:53.685
<v Speaker 1>danger for them?

0:39:53.765 --> 0:39:57.925
<v Speaker 2>In particular is the biodiversity concern. What happens when you

0:39:58.005 --> 0:40:00.725
<v Speaker 2>don't know that your donor conceived, you hook up with

0:40:00.765 --> 0:40:04.005
<v Speaker 2>a half sibling, and the level of accidental incest that

0:40:04.205 --> 0:40:06.725
<v Speaker 2>is the concern, especially when you're working in a demographic

0:40:06.845 --> 0:40:11.805
<v Speaker 2>like Maingley the Netherlands where it's smaller and you're more

0:40:11.845 --> 0:40:14.525
<v Speaker 2>populous with his children and they don't know.

0:40:14.685 --> 0:40:17.525
<v Speaker 1>And how many children Haddie fathered and in the Netherlands

0:40:17.565 --> 0:40:19.125
<v Speaker 1>for example, I don't remember.

0:40:18.965 --> 0:40:21.485
<v Speaker 2>Exactly what it was in the Netherlands, but.

0:40:21.485 --> 0:40:23.525
<v Speaker 1>It was like one hundred. It was like close to hundreds,

0:40:23.765 --> 0:40:26.845
<v Speaker 1>up to one thousand all over the world, maybe more right.

0:40:26.605 --> 0:40:29.445
<v Speaker 2>Because you know, I mean the math with it, which

0:40:29.485 --> 0:40:30.605
<v Speaker 2>I feel like is what a lot of the media

0:40:30.645 --> 0:40:33.285
<v Speaker 2>is like really latched onto you. We can look at

0:40:33.325 --> 0:40:36.485
<v Speaker 2>just Cryo salone where he's going to Copenhagen once a

0:40:36.525 --> 0:40:37.805
<v Speaker 2>month for four.

0:40:37.725 --> 0:40:42.965
<v Speaker 1>Days is a sperm bank in the sperm Yeah in demok.

0:40:42.645 --> 0:40:46.485
<v Speaker 2>So that's roughly two hundred donations and for him as

0:40:46.525 --> 0:40:51.245
<v Speaker 2>he is brags, you know, fifteen strawls of sperm per ejaculation,

0:40:52.045 --> 0:40:54.925
<v Speaker 2>and if every straw makes a baby, that's the potential

0:40:54.925 --> 0:40:58.085
<v Speaker 2>three thousand. Now, he has also come out and said

0:40:58.085 --> 0:41:03.245
<v Speaker 2>that he has spent fifty thousand hours donating. So like

0:41:03.485 --> 0:41:06.405
<v Speaker 2>the math, ain't math in here, because if he spent

0:41:06.525 --> 0:41:10.605
<v Speaker 2>fifty thousand hours donating, then is it potentially fifty thousand

0:41:10.765 --> 0:41:14.205
<v Speaker 2>children and not every single one's going to make a baby?

0:41:14.765 --> 0:41:16.925
<v Speaker 2>The math and math and I either way. So when

0:41:16.965 --> 0:41:19.565
<v Speaker 2>he says, you know, I only have five hundred and fifty.

0:41:19.365 --> 0:41:22.965
<v Speaker 1>Children, there are laws about this right to prevent accidental

0:41:23.045 --> 0:41:26.605
<v Speaker 1>incest and birth defects that could result from that, as

0:41:26.605 --> 0:41:29.565
<v Speaker 1>well as the moral implications of accidentally hooking up with

0:41:29.605 --> 0:41:33.005
<v Speaker 1>a half sibling. And I think in the Netherlands there's

0:41:33.005 --> 0:41:35.845
<v Speaker 1>a limit on you're only allowed twenty five and then

0:41:36.165 --> 0:41:37.925
<v Speaker 1>you can't donate anymore.

0:41:37.845 --> 0:41:41.845
<v Speaker 2>Per the banks. But that's not including freelance.

0:41:41.405 --> 0:41:43.285
<v Speaker 1>Private market, or different countries or.

0:41:43.285 --> 0:41:46.205
<v Speaker 2>Different countries, because what ultimately ends up happening is, let's

0:41:46.325 --> 0:41:49.325
<v Speaker 2>you know, he hits his limit in one country, they

0:41:49.365 --> 0:41:52.125
<v Speaker 2>export it to another country and the number goes to zero.

0:41:52.885 --> 0:41:56.645
<v Speaker 2>And so that is not something that is transparent in

0:41:56.685 --> 0:42:00.605
<v Speaker 2>this process, because that may change how you think about this. Right,

0:42:00.765 --> 0:42:03.045
<v Speaker 2>Like my assumption would be when I have a sperm

0:42:03.085 --> 0:42:05.645
<v Speaker 2>donor and you say that it's twenty five is the limit?

0:42:05.725 --> 0:42:08.485
<v Speaker 2>I would think twenty five worldwide. It's like, yeah, read

0:42:08.525 --> 0:42:11.285
<v Speaker 2>the fine print part, except there's no fine print. But

0:42:11.405 --> 0:42:13.845
<v Speaker 2>every time it is to zero. So when he does that,

0:42:13.965 --> 0:42:15.845
<v Speaker 2>and he does it as an alias, or he's doing

0:42:15.885 --> 0:42:18.805
<v Speaker 2>it on the private market, they're not counting those. It's

0:42:18.845 --> 0:42:21.885
<v Speaker 2>just deidentified sperm. It's just you know, going to clinic

0:42:21.925 --> 0:42:23.365
<v Speaker 2>to clinic to clinic to clinic.

0:42:23.405 --> 0:42:26.645
<v Speaker 1>And why Eve, why do these men do it?

0:42:27.205 --> 0:42:30.325
<v Speaker 2>Million dollar question. I'm going to put my therapist Haat

0:42:30.365 --> 0:42:32.885
<v Speaker 2>on for a second, and you know, like I do

0:42:33.005 --> 0:42:37.925
<v Speaker 2>psycho educational evaluations, and if we look at these group

0:42:37.965 --> 0:42:41.645
<v Speaker 2>of men as a whole, I definitely think that, you know,

0:42:41.645 --> 0:42:46.005
<v Speaker 2>we could consider a personality disorder on the DSM somewhere

0:42:46.005 --> 0:42:50.885
<v Speaker 2>in access to you. Isn't narcissism. This desire is an addiction.

0:42:51.725 --> 0:42:54.205
<v Speaker 2>You know, the way that they talk about their successes

0:42:54.525 --> 0:42:58.165
<v Speaker 2>and it's a number and it's a competition, and the

0:42:58.205 --> 0:43:00.685
<v Speaker 2>way that they just work in general, like making the

0:43:00.725 --> 0:43:04.925
<v Speaker 2>fake profiles look really bad. So their real profiles with

0:43:04.965 --> 0:43:08.325
<v Speaker 2>an alias look really really good. Like it's very manipulative.

0:43:08.445 --> 0:43:11.565
<v Speaker 1>Wait, explain. What the documentary discovered is that there's a

0:43:11.565 --> 0:43:13.805
<v Speaker 1>group of Jonathan was part of these group of men

0:43:14.085 --> 0:43:16.885
<v Speaker 1>who were almost gamified. Oh they were. They were gamifying

0:43:16.965 --> 0:43:20.965
<v Speaker 1>this idea of who can make the most babies in

0:43:21.005 --> 0:43:24.045
<v Speaker 1>the world. Yes, and so they would compete with each other.

0:43:24.325 --> 0:43:26.885
<v Speaker 1>They would keep score and what do you mean about

0:43:26.885 --> 0:43:28.445
<v Speaker 1>they would make fake profiles.

0:43:28.805 --> 0:43:32.005
<v Speaker 2>So there's lots of different platforms when we're talking about

0:43:32.445 --> 0:43:35.845
<v Speaker 2>the private market or freelance, known donors, you know, there's

0:43:35.885 --> 0:43:38.565
<v Speaker 2>lots of different names for it. These men would make

0:43:38.645 --> 0:43:41.645
<v Speaker 2>a Facebook group and they were the admin and the moderators.

0:43:42.085 --> 0:43:45.205
<v Speaker 2>They'll let recipients in, but they won't let competition in,

0:43:45.885 --> 0:43:49.405
<v Speaker 2>and so the other ones like make a baby now

0:43:49.765 --> 0:43:52.205
<v Speaker 2>or you know, every country has kind of like a

0:43:52.205 --> 0:43:55.965
<v Speaker 2>different platform. Think of it as like Craigslist, backpage ads,

0:43:56.045 --> 0:43:57.805
<v Speaker 2>kind of like that type of thing, and it's like

0:43:57.845 --> 0:44:01.685
<v Speaker 2>it's for this, and so they would make profiles that

0:44:01.725 --> 0:44:04.805
<v Speaker 2>would be all aliases, but one profile would be like,

0:44:04.845 --> 0:44:06.805
<v Speaker 2>you know, their best that picture of Jonathan, you know,

0:44:06.965 --> 0:44:07.805
<v Speaker 2>looking cute as.

0:44:07.685 --> 0:44:09.205
<v Speaker 1>A baby or as an adult.

0:44:09.525 --> 0:44:11.765
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that one, but then they would make fake ones

0:44:11.765 --> 0:44:14.885
<v Speaker 2>that are really really bad, like you know, misspelled and

0:44:15.005 --> 0:44:17.045
<v Speaker 2>all the characteristics, so that they knew that they weren't

0:44:17.045 --> 0:44:19.085
<v Speaker 2>looking for it. Because when you are going through these

0:44:19.165 --> 0:44:21.925
<v Speaker 2>profiles and you go through twenty really bad ones and

0:44:21.965 --> 0:44:23.245
<v Speaker 2>then you see Jonathan, you're like.

0:44:23.245 --> 0:44:25.925
<v Speaker 1>Oh, oh my gosh, all right, and that's why so

0:44:26.045 --> 0:44:27.525
<v Speaker 1>many women would choose him.

0:44:28.285 --> 0:44:31.125
<v Speaker 2>But all of them did this, and so you know,

0:44:31.125 --> 0:44:34.125
<v Speaker 2>I think of like Simon Watson, Joe Donor, these aren't

0:44:34.125 --> 0:44:38.205
<v Speaker 2>even these guys real names, except well Jonathan obviously. Then

0:44:38.245 --> 0:44:41.005
<v Speaker 2>they compete, then they have their moderators of the group,

0:44:41.325 --> 0:44:44.085
<v Speaker 2>and then it's just successes. They post pregnancy tests and

0:44:44.125 --> 0:44:46.805
<v Speaker 2>they brag about someone that they got pregnant, and then

0:44:46.805 --> 0:44:49.685
<v Speaker 2>they create their own little mom group. But they don't

0:44:49.685 --> 0:44:52.605
<v Speaker 2>have any of the responsibilities of being, you know, a

0:44:52.645 --> 0:44:56.805
<v Speaker 2>father figure. Very few of them had donor contracts, and

0:44:56.885 --> 0:45:00.285
<v Speaker 2>if anybody would speak out of turn, all they do

0:45:00.365 --> 0:45:02.925
<v Speaker 2>is threaten and say, well, I'm just going to sue

0:45:02.965 --> 0:45:05.565
<v Speaker 2>you for custody and then you use your kid happy time.

0:45:06.285 --> 0:45:09.485
<v Speaker 2>So women, you know, are like, well, okay, I I

0:45:09.525 --> 0:45:12.885
<v Speaker 2>definitely don't want you to now, you know, be co

0:45:13.045 --> 0:45:16.805
<v Speaker 2>parenting with me, and so it's it's really manipulative in

0:45:16.805 --> 0:45:18.285
<v Speaker 2>that sense, but it's dangerous.

0:45:18.525 --> 0:45:19.645
<v Speaker 1>How do you stop him?

0:45:19.925 --> 0:45:23.245
<v Speaker 2>It was hard in the Netherlands. The moms were very

0:45:23.325 --> 0:45:27.045
<v Speaker 2>much feeling was what I felt, the duty to inform,

0:45:27.525 --> 0:45:34.085
<v Speaker 2>because how can you possibly consent or assent and if

0:45:34.085 --> 0:45:37.245
<v Speaker 2>there's information that would change the way in which you

0:45:37.405 --> 0:45:40.245
<v Speaker 2>made an informed decision, you need to know about it.

0:45:40.325 --> 0:45:43.245
<v Speaker 2>So this duty to warn and inform, how can you

0:45:43.325 --> 0:45:46.645
<v Speaker 2>do that when in the Netherlands you can't name him?

0:45:47.205 --> 0:45:49.845
<v Speaker 2>It was just Dutch donor, Dutch done or Dutch donor.

0:45:49.965 --> 0:45:51.485
<v Speaker 1>Why couldn't he be named.

0:45:51.525 --> 0:45:55.805
<v Speaker 2>Because that's part of some policy, like you can't out

0:45:55.845 --> 0:45:57.645
<v Speaker 2>them in the media for some reason.

0:45:57.965 --> 0:46:00.485
<v Speaker 1>So how can anyone avoid using him again if they

0:46:00.485 --> 0:46:01.325
<v Speaker 1>don't know his name?

0:46:02.445 --> 0:46:05.885
<v Speaker 2>And wow, you cannot make an informed decision because no

0:46:05.925 --> 0:46:08.845
<v Speaker 2>one's going to think, oh, let me google Dutch donor? Well,

0:46:08.845 --> 0:46:10.205
<v Speaker 2>which Dutch donor?

0:46:10.365 --> 0:46:12.525
<v Speaker 1>And also, how do you make a lure in one

0:46:12.565 --> 0:46:15.245
<v Speaker 1>country that applies to every country.

0:46:15.085 --> 0:46:18.845
<v Speaker 2>And the answer is you don't. So for us, the

0:46:18.965 --> 0:46:21.885
<v Speaker 2>very first thing was, and this was my experience with everything,

0:46:21.965 --> 0:46:24.245
<v Speaker 2>what do you do when you are existing in a

0:46:24.285 --> 0:46:28.885
<v Speaker 2>legal landscape that has literally nothing. You don't have sperm

0:46:28.925 --> 0:46:32.085
<v Speaker 2>banks that are required to talk to each other. Every

0:46:32.205 --> 0:46:35.125
<v Speaker 2>country is so different. You have some countries that really

0:46:35.125 --> 0:46:38.765
<v Speaker 2>have this buttoned up, but because of their stricter laws,

0:46:38.765 --> 0:46:41.285
<v Speaker 2>it actually pushes people to go underground to these known

0:46:41.325 --> 0:46:46.085
<v Speaker 2>donors and makes them more susceptible to the predatory behavior

0:46:46.125 --> 0:46:49.525
<v Speaker 2>of these serial donors just out of necessity. Right then

0:46:49.525 --> 0:46:51.845
<v Speaker 2>you have the wild wild West like us in America,

0:46:51.965 --> 0:46:54.685
<v Speaker 2>where it's like what laws. My first thing was we

0:46:54.765 --> 0:46:56.125
<v Speaker 2>got to start really small, and the first thing that

0:46:56.165 --> 0:46:58.845
<v Speaker 2>we can do to meet the first goal is to

0:46:59.365 --> 0:47:02.645
<v Speaker 2>get his name out there. That was, let's talk to

0:47:02.645 --> 0:47:04.845
<v Speaker 2>the New York Times and you guys come forward, because

0:47:04.885 --> 0:47:07.925
<v Speaker 2>in America you can name him. And that's what we did.

0:47:08.005 --> 0:47:09.885
<v Speaker 2>As soon as he was named, than he was linked

0:47:09.885 --> 0:47:13.165
<v Speaker 2>with all of you know, Dutch donor and it was

0:47:13.205 --> 0:47:18.245
<v Speaker 2>all put together and then notifying Cryos International and hoping

0:47:18.285 --> 0:47:20.605
<v Speaker 2>that they could somehow remove all of his straws that

0:47:20.605 --> 0:47:22.685
<v Speaker 2>they had sent all over the world. So that was

0:47:22.725 --> 0:47:26.125
<v Speaker 2>the first part. The second part was the moms had

0:47:26.125 --> 0:47:29.485
<v Speaker 2>been working with Donor Kind in the Netherlands since like

0:47:29.485 --> 0:47:33.605
<v Speaker 2>twenty seventeen, which is an organization there, and the moms

0:47:33.685 --> 0:47:35.365
<v Speaker 2>ended up coming up with this group called Moms on

0:47:35.365 --> 0:47:37.085
<v Speaker 2>a Mission, and that was kind of like you know,

0:47:37.405 --> 0:47:40.805
<v Speaker 2>our mission and you know, having all of these pieces

0:47:40.845 --> 0:47:43.925
<v Speaker 2>fit together to figure out how to stop him. So

0:47:44.285 --> 0:47:49.125
<v Speaker 2>the Brave Moms took him to court and he represented himself.

0:47:49.565 --> 0:47:51.685
<v Speaker 2>The argument was like listen, he's it's kind of like

0:47:51.685 --> 0:47:53.925
<v Speaker 2>a danger to society at this point, like he has

0:47:54.165 --> 0:47:56.165
<v Speaker 2>this amount of kids that we know of. Our kids

0:47:56.205 --> 0:47:58.685
<v Speaker 2>go to school together, they live, right, we're neighbors all

0:47:58.685 --> 0:48:01.125
<v Speaker 2>the time. Like this is wild. So he comes in

0:48:01.285 --> 0:48:03.005
<v Speaker 2>and like you seeing the documentary with the story, like

0:48:03.285 --> 0:48:06.205
<v Speaker 2>it's a oh judge, you don't understand. It's a new concepts,

0:48:06.285 --> 0:48:08.685
<v Speaker 2>like they just need a special symbol to be branded

0:48:09.445 --> 0:48:11.965
<v Speaker 2>stood their name, and like my children are so smart,

0:48:12.045 --> 0:48:14.205
<v Speaker 2>like they won't hook up with each other, blah blah.

0:48:14.205 --> 0:48:16.445
<v Speaker 2>But me, he just ran his mouth like an idiot.

0:48:16.565 --> 0:48:18.845
<v Speaker 1>That was chilling when he said they should be marked

0:48:18.845 --> 0:48:19.965
<v Speaker 1>on social media.

0:48:20.125 --> 0:48:24.685
<v Speaker 2>Yep, that it would be like this pride like verification. Yeah, exactly,

0:48:24.725 --> 0:48:25.645
<v Speaker 2>it's a new concept.

0:48:26.245 --> 0:48:29.405
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god. So he's like a cult leader, but

0:48:29.485 --> 0:48:31.845
<v Speaker 1>it's also eugenics. It's terrifying.

0:48:32.325 --> 0:48:34.925
<v Speaker 2>It is terrifying. And then he has years of these

0:48:34.925 --> 0:48:38.005
<v Speaker 2>YouTube videos of like him basically seems like he's like

0:48:38.165 --> 0:48:40.245
<v Speaker 2>parenting his children.

0:48:39.885 --> 0:48:43.685
<v Speaker 1>Talking about his philosophies on everything from politics to the environment,

0:48:43.805 --> 0:48:48.325
<v Speaker 1>to being anti woke, to listening to your ancestors and

0:48:48.365 --> 0:48:51.045
<v Speaker 1>being grateful to your biological parents.

0:48:51.565 --> 0:48:56.925
<v Speaker 2>Brainwashing cool like right, the judge was he was selling bullshit,

0:48:57.005 --> 0:48:59.925
<v Speaker 2>but she wasn't buying, and so she was like, you know,

0:49:00.125 --> 0:49:02.405
<v Speaker 2>you do this again and you're going to get fined

0:49:02.525 --> 0:49:03.765
<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand euro.

0:49:03.965 --> 0:49:05.485
<v Speaker 1>It's what it was per donation.

0:49:06.045 --> 0:49:09.045
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you know. My favorite part was when you know

0:49:09.125 --> 0:49:11.405
<v Speaker 2>his like what, I'm a good father, Like I show

0:49:11.445 --> 0:49:13.845
<v Speaker 2>up at birthdays, I show up at this and she's like,

0:49:14.485 --> 0:49:17.925
<v Speaker 2>it's not possible for you to attend every graduation and

0:49:17.965 --> 0:49:20.845
<v Speaker 2>every birthday and every life Like when you have this many.

0:49:20.725 --> 0:49:23.205
<v Speaker 1>Children, you have hundreds and hundreds of thousands and thousands

0:49:23.205 --> 0:49:23.725
<v Speaker 1>of children.

0:49:23.845 --> 0:49:26.045
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the reality is like he's only gonna admit

0:49:26.125 --> 0:49:28.445
<v Speaker 2>to what we know, right, And it's just like my

0:49:28.525 --> 0:49:32.685
<v Speaker 2>biological father, he only admitted to what I said. And

0:49:32.805 --> 0:49:35.205
<v Speaker 2>so it's like every time anyone comes up, it's going

0:49:35.285 --> 0:49:37.605
<v Speaker 2>to keep going and keep climbing and keep climbing, keep climbing,

0:49:37.605 --> 0:49:40.165
<v Speaker 2>and we saw this with the Netflix documentary Our Father,

0:49:40.725 --> 0:49:43.965
<v Speaker 2>where the number of those half siblings from Donald Climb

0:49:44.125 --> 0:49:48.125
<v Speaker 2>kept climbing climbing after the duty to inform and warn

0:49:48.645 --> 0:49:52.125
<v Speaker 2>had been out there and people recognize, Oh my god,

0:49:52.165 --> 0:49:53.805
<v Speaker 2>I think that I may have been victimized to you.

0:49:54.005 --> 0:49:55.845
<v Speaker 2>And that is exactly what we will be seeing.

0:49:56.005 --> 0:49:59.925
<v Speaker 1>What's Jonathan doing now? What's happened since the documentary came out?

0:49:59.965 --> 0:50:01.645
<v Speaker 1>Do you know is he still trying to donate? I

0:50:01.685 --> 0:50:03.885
<v Speaker 1>kind of imagine he'd just go, oh okay, I'll stop.

0:50:04.845 --> 0:50:08.845
<v Speaker 2>Who knows well, he has been giving me some shout

0:50:08.845 --> 0:50:12.165
<v Speaker 2>outs on his YouTube channel. He thinks I am the mastermind,

0:50:12.765 --> 0:50:16.285
<v Speaker 2>so you know, I'll put on my best Taylor Swift,

0:50:16.085 --> 0:50:19.925
<v Speaker 2>I'll take that. Yeah, that crown. You know, he's threatening

0:50:19.965 --> 0:50:23.925
<v Speaker 2>a lawsuit for slander and just he's spiraling, is what.

0:50:24.005 --> 0:50:27.285
<v Speaker 2>I think. He had an opportunity to participate and to

0:50:27.885 --> 0:50:30.005
<v Speaker 2>you know, give his side of the story, but he didn't.

0:50:30.765 --> 0:50:33.325
<v Speaker 2>So I think he's just sitting in the woods making

0:50:33.365 --> 0:50:35.965
<v Speaker 2>YouTube videos right now. That's all from what I can see.

0:50:36.205 --> 0:50:37.365
<v Speaker 1>Kamer is my boyfriend.

0:50:37.725 --> 0:50:39.165
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, that's right.

0:50:39.565 --> 0:50:42.925
<v Speaker 1>Eve. You are a warrior for women. I wanted to

0:50:42.965 --> 0:50:45.845
<v Speaker 1>ask you one more question when I was watching you

0:50:46.165 --> 0:50:50.965
<v Speaker 1>and the other donor deceived people fighting going to Capitol Hill,

0:50:51.045 --> 0:50:54.325
<v Speaker 1>trying to get national legislation, trying to get people to

0:50:54.445 --> 0:50:59.485
<v Speaker 1>understand what this medical rape is. Essentially women being impregnated

0:50:59.725 --> 0:51:03.805
<v Speaker 1>with sperm without their consent or being defrauded. You're essentially

0:51:04.125 --> 0:51:07.645
<v Speaker 1>arguing against your own existence, and I imagine a lot

0:51:07.685 --> 0:51:09.565
<v Speaker 1>of people use that as a way to try and

0:51:09.565 --> 0:51:12.285
<v Speaker 1>shut you up, like the preacher did and those people

0:51:12.285 --> 0:51:14.765
<v Speaker 1>in your community. How do you feel about that? How

0:51:14.805 --> 0:51:15.685
<v Speaker 1>do you reconcile that?

0:51:16.045 --> 0:51:20.205
<v Speaker 2>Well? Usually what I say is I am not talking

0:51:20.245 --> 0:51:23.965
<v Speaker 2>about being grateful to be alive or my existence in general.

0:51:23.805 --> 0:51:25.765
<v Speaker 1>Life, Oh, wishing you'd never been born.

0:51:25.925 --> 0:51:28.605
<v Speaker 2>Which I would never be born. I'm not debating the

0:51:28.645 --> 0:51:31.925
<v Speaker 2>facts of that. I am talking about the deception around conception,

0:51:32.485 --> 0:51:36.525
<v Speaker 2>the lack of enforcing informed consent, and how in this

0:51:36.605 --> 0:51:43.285
<v Speaker 2>particular instance, morality does not equate legality, And so separating

0:51:43.325 --> 0:51:46.445
<v Speaker 2>those two things I think are very important because it

0:51:46.565 --> 0:51:49.845
<v Speaker 2>is very easy to conflate those two things. What is

0:51:49.885 --> 0:51:54.125
<v Speaker 2>it like, the end to the means means to the end, right, Yeah,

0:51:54.165 --> 0:51:56.285
<v Speaker 2>it's hard to not be able to look at that

0:51:56.365 --> 0:51:59.725
<v Speaker 2>and say, but you're here and I am so grateful

0:51:59.725 --> 0:52:02.205
<v Speaker 2>to be alive, but I can have opposite feelings about

0:52:02.205 --> 0:52:04.485
<v Speaker 2>this and hold space for that. I'm grateful to be alive,

0:52:04.645 --> 0:52:07.125
<v Speaker 2>but I am very upset about the deception around my conception.

0:52:07.885 --> 0:52:10.965
<v Speaker 2>And if I truly believe that we need to leave

0:52:11.045 --> 0:52:14.165
<v Speaker 2>this world better than we found it, I need to

0:52:14.245 --> 0:52:16.085
<v Speaker 2>find the purpose in my pain, and I need to

0:52:16.125 --> 0:52:18.365
<v Speaker 2>do it not only for the rest of the people

0:52:18.365 --> 0:52:21.045
<v Speaker 2>and the women who have been deceived, but also, you know,

0:52:21.045 --> 0:52:22.845
<v Speaker 2>at a very basic level, just to be an example

0:52:22.925 --> 0:52:26.285
<v Speaker 2>from my girls, that it's not always the tragedy that

0:52:26.445 --> 0:52:29.125
<v Speaker 2>happens to you, it's what you do with it, and

0:52:29.245 --> 0:52:30.485
<v Speaker 2>that is empowerment.

0:52:30.885 --> 0:52:35.045
<v Speaker 1>What a note to end on. You're amazing. It is

0:52:35.125 --> 0:52:38.165
<v Speaker 1>amazing to me that Eve might have got her whole

0:52:38.165 --> 0:52:41.485
<v Speaker 1>life not knowing the truth about her conception if she

0:52:41.525 --> 0:52:45.045
<v Speaker 1>hadn't done that thing that teenagers do, which is snoop.

0:52:45.525 --> 0:52:48.205
<v Speaker 1>I guess she probably would have found out when she

0:52:48.285 --> 0:52:51.365
<v Speaker 1>did some of those DNA tests after her son got sick.

0:52:52.365 --> 0:52:55.005
<v Speaker 1>But the fact that that snooping led her to Steve,

0:52:55.445 --> 0:52:58.005
<v Speaker 1>who for years she believed was her birth father, only

0:52:58.045 --> 0:53:01.005
<v Speaker 1>to have another grenade launched into her life and her

0:53:01.045 --> 0:53:04.085
<v Speaker 1>heart when her son became ill and she found out

0:53:04.085 --> 0:53:06.965
<v Speaker 1>that he actually wasn't her father. It reminded me of

0:53:07.005 --> 0:53:09.925
<v Speaker 1>that story about Tony Abbott. It came out that an

0:53:09.965 --> 0:53:13.205
<v Speaker 1>old girlfriend of his had had a son and had

0:53:13.245 --> 0:53:16.365
<v Speaker 1>adopted him out and had never told Tony Abbott that

0:53:16.405 --> 0:53:19.205
<v Speaker 1>she was pregnant. And then this guy who turned out

0:53:19.205 --> 0:53:22.925
<v Speaker 1>to be a cameraman at Parliament House who'd filmed Tony

0:53:22.965 --> 0:53:27.165
<v Speaker 1>Abbot many times in his political career, turned out to

0:53:27.205 --> 0:53:30.525
<v Speaker 1>be this child, and he tracked down his biological mother,

0:53:30.965 --> 0:53:34.725
<v Speaker 1>who explained who his biological father was, and it was

0:53:34.765 --> 0:53:36.965
<v Speaker 1>in the press at the time. You know, Tony Abbot

0:53:37.005 --> 0:53:39.965
<v Speaker 1>handled it really well, and it was quite a beautiful

0:53:40.005 --> 0:53:42.485
<v Speaker 1>story and everyone loved, you know, the coincidence of the

0:53:42.525 --> 0:53:44.605
<v Speaker 1>fact that they'd been working in the same workplace without

0:53:44.645 --> 0:53:47.925
<v Speaker 1>even realizing they were father and son. And then a

0:53:47.925 --> 0:53:51.525
<v Speaker 1>little while later it turned out that actually Tony Abbot

0:53:51.525 --> 0:53:54.325
<v Speaker 1>wasn't the father. There was a different biological father, and

0:53:54.365 --> 0:53:57.525
<v Speaker 1>the mother had actually just got it wrong. I really

0:53:57.565 --> 0:54:01.405
<v Speaker 1>remember feeling how poignant that situation was, because they'd done

0:54:01.485 --> 0:54:04.205
<v Speaker 1>interviews and spoken about how they were sort of forging

0:54:04.245 --> 0:54:07.525
<v Speaker 1>this relationship, and Tony Abbott had three daughters and then

0:54:07.565 --> 0:54:10.485
<v Speaker 1>he had this son, and it was just a really interesting,

0:54:10.565 --> 0:54:12.805
<v Speaker 1>quite beautiful story at a time when Tony Abbott was

0:54:12.885 --> 0:54:16.485
<v Speaker 1>not a very popular guy. And then I remember wondering,

0:54:16.805 --> 0:54:20.565
<v Speaker 1>how do you unpack that? How do you even find

0:54:20.605 --> 0:54:23.285
<v Speaker 1>a place to file that in your heart when you

0:54:23.365 --> 0:54:27.325
<v Speaker 1>thought someone was maybe your biological parent and then they weren't.

0:54:28.085 --> 0:54:31.285
<v Speaker 1>I was so relieved that Eve has stayed friends with Steve,

0:54:32.125 --> 0:54:34.245
<v Speaker 1>but then what do you do about the fact that

0:54:34.285 --> 0:54:38.645
<v Speaker 1>your actual biological father is an asshole. I'll be honest,

0:54:38.685 --> 0:54:41.645
<v Speaker 1>I've never really thought about fertility fraud before the Netflix series,

0:54:42.085 --> 0:54:45.325
<v Speaker 1>but now I cannot look away. I'm thinking about it

0:54:45.365 --> 0:54:47.445
<v Speaker 1>a lot, and it turns out there are a lot

0:54:47.445 --> 0:54:51.445
<v Speaker 1>of men out there who were, I don't know, narcissistic psychopaths,

0:54:52.285 --> 0:54:54.485
<v Speaker 1>men who are doing this to women and families every day,

0:54:54.525 --> 0:54:56.325
<v Speaker 1>and it's really struck a nerve. I think that's why

0:54:56.365 --> 0:55:00.325
<v Speaker 1>this show on Netflix became number one all over the world,

0:55:00.405 --> 0:55:04.685
<v Speaker 1>because there's this idea about bodily autonomy, the fact that

0:55:04.765 --> 0:55:08.125
<v Speaker 1>someone can either give you their sperm under false pretenses

0:55:08.325 --> 0:55:11.365
<v Speaker 1>or put their sperm in your body without you consenting

0:55:11.405 --> 0:55:13.725
<v Speaker 1>to it, and it's not even a crime in many

0:55:13.765 --> 0:55:18.485
<v Speaker 1>states in America. It's just wild. You know. MoMA MIA's

0:55:18.645 --> 0:55:21.525
<v Speaker 1>entire core purpose as a business and as a media

0:55:21.605 --> 0:55:23.845
<v Speaker 1>company is to make the world a better place for

0:55:23.885 --> 0:55:26.845
<v Speaker 1>women and girls, and we're going to look into fertility

0:55:26.845 --> 0:55:29.765
<v Speaker 1>fraud some more so. If you have a story about

0:55:29.765 --> 0:55:34.365
<v Speaker 1>fertility fraud or conception deception, please reach out and let

0:55:34.445 --> 0:55:36.085
<v Speaker 1>us know. We'll put a link in the show notes

0:55:36.125 --> 0:55:38.045
<v Speaker 1>to an email address that you can reach out, either

0:55:38.085 --> 0:55:41.005
<v Speaker 1>anonymously if you want to tell us your story under

0:55:41.045 --> 0:55:43.365
<v Speaker 1>a pseudonym, or under your own name. We want to

0:55:43.405 --> 0:55:47.445
<v Speaker 1>continue shining a light and exploring this crime. We'll also

0:55:47.445 --> 0:55:49.285
<v Speaker 1>put a link to Eve's website where you can learn

0:55:49.325 --> 0:55:51.925
<v Speaker 1>more about her and all the amazing work she does.

0:55:52.285 --> 0:55:54.885
<v Speaker 1>I love her. I know she's a therapist. I think

0:55:54.925 --> 0:55:57.285
<v Speaker 1>I want her to be my therapist. Is that unethical?

0:55:58.045 --> 0:56:01.085
<v Speaker 1>I'm a little bit obsessed with her. Thank you for listening.

0:56:01.485 --> 0:56:04.885
<v Speaker 1>No Filter's executive producer is niam A Brown, another woman

0:56:04.885 --> 0:56:08.445
<v Speaker 1>I'm obsessed with, and our audio producer is Leah Porges,

0:56:08.765 --> 0:56:12.405
<v Speaker 1>who you know I'm obsessed with. I may have Friedman.

0:56:12.645 --> 0:56:26.005
<v Speaker 1>Be safe out their friends and watch out for each other. Okay,