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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on from Mamma Maya. You're listening to No

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Speaker 1: Filter and I'm mea Friedman. How many times can you

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Speaker 1: find out life changing news about your dad? For Eve Wiley,

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Speaker 1: the answer is three times, and it was about three

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Speaker 1: different men. Eve Wiley has had three fathers in her lifetime.

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Speaker 1: One of them sadly passed away when she was seven.

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Speaker 1: One of them is a great guy, but he wasn't

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Speaker 1: who she thought he was, And one of them was

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Speaker 1: an egomaniacal monster. If you watch the Netflix series The

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Speaker 1: Man with a Thousand Kids that told the story of

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Speaker 1: cereal sperm donor Jonathan Meyer, you might recognize Eve's name.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't impregnated by Jonathan, but she helped try and

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Speaker 1: stop him from harming other women, more women, and from

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Speaker 1: doing more damage to the hundreds, probably thousands of children

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Speaker 1: he's already conceived. But Jonathan isn't the only guy who's

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Speaker 1: trying to superminate the world. There are more serial sperm

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Speaker 1: doners like him out there who, for whatever reason, I

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Speaker 1: obsessed with the idea of impregnating women under false pretenses

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Speaker 1: for their own twisted reasons, and nobody knows that better

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Speaker 1: than eight. If you were seven when your father died,

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Speaker 1: how old were you when you discovered that he wasn't

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Speaker 1: actually your biological father.

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Speaker 2: I was sixteen years old when I was going through

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Speaker 2: my mom's emails. She was a school nurse at my school,

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Speaker 2: and so I kind of had this little habit where

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Speaker 2: I would go unto her emails and I would find

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Speaker 2: all the juicy gossip on my code words or if

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe a teacher sent an email that like

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Speaker 2: I had a bad grade or something. You know. It

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Speaker 2: was management for myself, was what it was. And that's

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Speaker 2: when I found the emails of my mom email in California,

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Speaker 2: Cara Bank, and I saw my birth date on it.

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Speaker 2: My thought was, you know, from a small town, my

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Speaker 2: grandpa has cows that my mom was doing something for

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Speaker 2: like artificial insemination for the bulls.

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Speaker 1: That wouldn't have been most people's first thought, but I

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Speaker 1: see why that was relevant for you.

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Speaker 2: It was very relevant. But as soon as I saw

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Speaker 2: my birth date, I knew in that exact moment that

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Speaker 2: I was the juicy gossip within the coport. So that's

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Speaker 2: when I found out that I was doing or conceived.

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Speaker 1: When someone finds something life changing via snooping, there is

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Speaker 1: a dilemma because you've got to admit to the snooping

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Speaker 1: to be able to confront the person about the thing

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Speaker 1: you've discovered. What did you do next?

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Speaker 2: It was late at night. What I did exactly was

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Speaker 2: I ended up playing SIMS and creating a lot of

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Speaker 2: babies in my son's game. Interesting kind of playing it

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Speaker 2: out there. But I went to bed and I woke

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Speaker 2: up the next morning and my mom was in the

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Speaker 2: bathroom getting ready, and I dis barged in and I

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Speaker 2: was like, mom, I know that Doug isn't my dad.

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Speaker 2: And I just remember her looking at me in the

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Speaker 2: reflection of the mirror, just turning around. She's like, what

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Speaker 2: are you talking about? And she starts bawling. And at

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Speaker 2: the time at this like, you know, it's just a

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Speaker 2: naive sixteen year old. I was excited, you know. For me,

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Speaker 2: I didn't understand the complexities of donor conception, you know,

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Speaker 2: in a social sense, but also in an ethical sense.

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Speaker 2: For me, I was like, I still have, you know,

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Speaker 2: a dad. I probably have half siblings and so it

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Speaker 2: was very like, you know, Pollyanna about this, and that's

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Speaker 2: how I kind of confronted her, and she did a

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Speaker 2: really good job of you know, Eve, you were seven

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Speaker 2: when your dad died. They told us not to ever

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Speaker 2: tell you and it wasn't going to be important. And

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Speaker 2: she brought up this green folder and it was every

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Speaker 2: print out from an email that she had ever spoken

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Speaker 2: to anyone on like Yahoo messenger boards, not to like

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Speaker 2: date myself. You know, it was before Facebook, and you know,

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Speaker 2: her medical records and you know, all of the things

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Speaker 2: to where she really was creating this breadcrumb trowel for me.

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Speaker 2: And for me that was really meaningful because I could

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Speaker 2: actually see it that that she really was going to

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Speaker 2: tell me. She just didn't know how to tell me.

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Speaker 1: I imagine there were lots of different feelings. You say you

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Speaker 1: were quite Pollyanna about it, but I imagine you're losing Doug,

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Speaker 1: who you thought was your father, essentially your stepfather at

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Speaker 1: age seven. That must have been pretty traumatic for you

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Speaker 1: at that age. Did it feel a little bit like

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Speaker 1: a new phase of grief in terms of losing him

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Speaker 1: again at sixteen?

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Speaker 2: You don't know if at sixteen I could wrap my

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Speaker 2: head around that part. You know, there definitely was a

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Speaker 2: lot of grief and there was a level of trauma

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Speaker 2: of not having you know, that father figure growing up

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Speaker 2: right eventually, But for me, I think it was just

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Speaker 2: trying to look at it in more of a positive sense. Now,

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Speaker 2: Remember at this time, I was not aware that the

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Speaker 2: donor could be like, no, I don't want to have

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Speaker 2: contact with you, because in my head that was never

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Speaker 2: a thing. It wasn't until later where I started to

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Speaker 2: realize that, you know, the social constructs of this could

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Speaker 2: be very different. With that new information. I think that

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Speaker 2: there was, you know, a sense of hesitancy on my

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Speaker 2: part and fear that I may be rejected, and so

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Speaker 2: it did kind of like snowball into other types of feelings.

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Speaker 2: But that morning, in that moment, I was excited, but

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Speaker 2: completely naive and completely unaware of what it even meant.

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Speaker 1: Because I guess in a way, you lost Doug again,

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Speaker 1: but then also your father was alive again because you

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Speaker 1: hadn't even met him and he was out there somewhere right.

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Speaker 1: What a lot of emotions it is.

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Speaker 2: And is I think it's one of those times too,

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Speaker 2: where you know, I was having opposite feelings about something.

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Speaker 2: You know. I was excited, but to your point, there

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Speaker 2: was a level of grief. But then, you know, growing

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Speaker 2: up in my nuclear family, I was this blonde hair,

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Speaker 2: blue green eyed little girl. My little sister, who was

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Speaker 2: fourteen months younger than me, had this olive skin complexion,

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Speaker 2: dark brown hair, dark brown eyes. I looked like no

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Speaker 2: one in my family. There was no familiarity, and so

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Speaker 2: I was constantly teased for being adopted. And so there

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Speaker 2: is something called the thought unknown, where I always knew

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Speaker 2: there was a secret. I just didn't know that I

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Speaker 2: was the secret until then. So then being able to

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Speaker 2: justify and everything makes sense to have an actual reason

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Speaker 2: for it instead of wondering what it was.

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Speaker 1: Was your sister the biological child of Doug and your mom.

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Speaker 2: She was When my parents initially went to their fertility doctor,

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Speaker 2: my dad had Verico's fans around his testes, and so

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Speaker 2: the recommendation was to get a surgery to get us

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Speaker 2: taken care of. So he did that they still aren'

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Speaker 2: getting pregnant. So then the next step was to do

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Speaker 2: artificial insemination by an anonymous ferm donor. When I was born,

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Speaker 2: my parents were pregnant four months later, and so it

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Speaker 2: could be that maybe there just wasn't enough time after

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Speaker 2: the surgery of the reversal of the surgery. So she

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Speaker 2: is the biological child of my dad, Doug.

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Speaker 1: So how did things feel between you and her? Learning

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Speaker 1: that you were not actually sis, were you were half sisters?

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Speaker 1: You had different fathers.

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Speaker 2: This one caught me by surprise. I didn't think that

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Speaker 2: it would impact her, and that was just you know,

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Speaker 2: me being shortsighted. But when we sat my sister down

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Speaker 2: and we told her, she started crying. And the only

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Speaker 2: thing she said before she ran out of the room

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Speaker 2: was well, least you have a dad, And that was

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Speaker 2: it that hurt, because then it was like, yeah, now

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Speaker 2: I feel guilt, and wow, this is getting really complicated.

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Speaker 2: And you know, there wasn't a book for me to

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Speaker 2: go read. There wasn't a blog yet. There wasn't anyone

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Speaker 2: that I even knew that was donor conceived except for

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Speaker 2: the cows at my grandma's house, And so I didn't

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Speaker 2: have a north star to be able to have some

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Speaker 2: sort of expectations of how this should go and how

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Speaker 2: this could go. Even when I called California Cryobank. At

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Speaker 2: this time, no one had made a connection with their donor,

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Speaker 2: so they didn't really have any good information for me

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Speaker 2: either on how to proceed with this, so it was

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Speaker 2: very lonely, and then it became a thing of what,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about this in front of

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Speaker 2: my sister because it all make her sad, which only

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Speaker 2: reinforced that loneliness.

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Speaker 1: In Australia, there are laws that came in a few

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Speaker 1: decades ago. I think that sperm donors could only be

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Speaker 1: anonymous up until the age of any donor children that

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Speaker 1: had been conceived were eighteen, and then those children had

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Speaker 1: a legal right to find them. What are the laws,

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Speaker 1: I imagine it probably differs state by state. But did

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Speaker 1: you know that you would be able to find your

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Speaker 1: the identity of your donor or? Was that tricky?

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Speaker 2: It was tricky because it is literally the wild wild

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Speaker 2: West here in good old us of A. It's entirely

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Speaker 2: left up to the donors in the clinics, And so

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Speaker 2: at the time that I was conceived, the idea of

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Speaker 2: an open donor versus a closed donor wasn't even a

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Speaker 2: topic of conversation. The recommendation in the eighties was don't ask,

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Speaker 2: don't tell, like they don't need to know, it's not important.

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Speaker 2: You're the parent and that's it. So there wasn't a

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Speaker 2: level of education to educate on the donor be canceive

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Speaker 2: experience or about how important genetic identity is. And then

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Speaker 2: even now I just feel like in the last you know,

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Speaker 2: ten years, the sperm banks here in clinics are just

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Speaker 2: now starting to realize, you know, maybe anonymous donation isn't

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Speaker 2: great because here anonymity breaths fraud when you're able to

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Speaker 2: exist under the cloak of anonymity. And it wasn't until

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Speaker 2: the you know, invention of commercial dnate testing that is

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Speaker 2: really blowing the lid off of those So as far

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Speaker 2: as the being the laws here, there's just pure recommendations

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Speaker 2: per the American Society of Reproductive Medicine.

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Speaker 1: Will you angradate your mom that she hadn't told you

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Speaker 1: and that she had no intention of telling you?

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Speaker 2: Yes and no. I was angry that I was live

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Speaker 2: to you, But when she pulled out the green folder,

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Speaker 2: all of that kind of melted away because I could

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Speaker 2: see the amount of hours that she poured into this,

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Speaker 2: and I believed her when she said I didn't know

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Speaker 2: how to tell you, I didn't when to tell you.

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Speaker 2: But I knew that if I did all of this

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Speaker 2: research and had all this information, that you would believe

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Speaker 2: me that I have been doing this for a very

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Speaker 2: long time. And so I think that that very much

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Speaker 2: helped bridge the gap between those emotions for me, because

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Speaker 2: I could very much empathize with not being able to

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Speaker 2: tell a seven year old whose father just passed away, well,

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Speaker 2: but that's not like your real dad, because let's go

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Speaker 2: talk about, you know, how babies are made now. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's no way, like I totally.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of conversation, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Being seven, being like like just understanding developmentally, you know,

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Speaker 2: abstract thinking. And it didn't seem as appropriate at that

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Speaker 2: time to explain grief, death and artificial insamination.

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Speaker 1: And your mom must have felt protective of Doug and

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Speaker 1: his relationship with you, and I can say that I

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Speaker 1: can understand why she did it. How did you find

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Speaker 1: the identity of your Dina? What did you learn in

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Speaker 1: that green folder?

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Speaker 2: So in the green folder I had my mom's medical records,

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Speaker 2: and in there it said the date that I was

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Speaker 2: conceived with Donor one oh six from California Crowdbank. And

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Speaker 2: this was in the doctor's handwriting. So that was confirmation

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Speaker 2: of my conception. And my mom had one sheet of

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Speaker 2: paper and it had California Crow Bank all the donors listed,

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Speaker 2: and it was just one line donor number, physical characteristics,

218
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Speaker 2: level of education, and interest, like just very limited, and

219
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Speaker 2: you could see like not this one, not this one,

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Speaker 2: maybe this one, and then she circled one and this one,

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Speaker 2: and then there were letters to like Wendy or emails

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Speaker 2: like Wendy Kramer Single Mothers by Choice organization. I think

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Speaker 2: at one point there was like maybe a Canadian donor

224
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Speaker 2: conception network, different professional organizations, and all of it was like,

225
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Speaker 2: I'm just trying to get more information. We knew his

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Speaker 2: religion was of I Made Butcher, this the Bahai faith,

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Speaker 2: and so my mom had all of these like communications

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Speaker 2: with that religious organization. So that was kind of what

229
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Speaker 2: was the bulk of the folder. There were also personal

230
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Speaker 2: emails and personal stories where she was asked, how do

231
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Speaker 2: I tell my daughter you're an adult?

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Speaker 1: Now?

233
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Speaker 2: What should I do? What should I not do? That

234
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Speaker 2: type of stuff.

235
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Speaker 1: So she'd been trying to track down your donor secretly

236
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Speaker 1: all these years.

237
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Speaker 2: Kind of I think that in her very limited way,

238
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Speaker 2: she was trying to understand you know what was the

239
00:12:26,925 --> 00:12:30,845
Speaker 2: network in the landscape. Donor Sibling registery was not quite

240
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Speaker 2: built yet, but that was the only pretty much formal

241
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Speaker 2: platform where you could put it in your donor number

242
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Speaker 2: and you would hope that the donor would register as

243
00:12:40,205 --> 00:12:41,325
Speaker 2: well as other half siblings.

244
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Speaker 1: So ultimately, when she was choosing her donor, she chose

245
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Speaker 1: number one hundred and six because he had certain qualities.

246
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Speaker 1: He had an interest in film and politics, which she

247
00:12:51,045 --> 00:12:54,445
Speaker 1: thought was similar to her and to her husband. And

248
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Speaker 1: you tracked him down, you said about making contact with

249
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Speaker 1: number one hundred and six, Who did you find?

250
00:13:00,285 --> 00:13:05,565
Speaker 2: I found Steve Shoal and I contacted the Crow Bank.

251
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Speaker 2: Their rules at the time were we need the medical

252
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Speaker 2: records from the doctor or to confirm, and they also

253
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Speaker 2: had their records that were purchasing records from the doctor,

254
00:13:14,805 --> 00:13:18,925
Speaker 2: so those things matched up, and they sent kind of

255
00:13:18,925 --> 00:13:21,805
Speaker 2: like a questionnaire that was like, let's update your medical records,

256
00:13:21,885 --> 00:13:25,485
Speaker 2: not saying like, hey, you have a daughter. And so

257
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Speaker 2: that process took about a year because I think eventually

258
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Speaker 2: Steve don one of six, who I also call Dad,

259
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Speaker 2: he was like, why do y'all need this? And they're like, oh,

260
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Speaker 2: because you have a daughter and he was like, I'm

261
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Speaker 2: sorry what you know, he was surprised by it. I

262
00:13:41,965 --> 00:13:43,845
Speaker 2: think in his head he was like, I'm just doing

263
00:13:43,845 --> 00:13:44,565
Speaker 2: this for research.

264
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Speaker 1: Well, had he forgotten that he donated spam? Like why

265
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Speaker 1: had he donated for money?

266
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Speaker 2: He was in college, easy way to make a bug, like,

267
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Speaker 2: you know.

268
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Speaker 1: He'd sort of forgotten about it. He was probably stoned.

269
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Speaker 1: It was college, he was high.

270
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Speaker 2: He wasn't exactly, he wasn't bad about it. He's like

271
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Speaker 2: Lodu's best life, Like I'm doing it anyways, Like what, oh, yeah,

272
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Speaker 2: I remember that vaguely, yeah exactly.

273
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Speaker 1: And where was he in his life when he found

274
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Speaker 1: out that you existed.

275
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Speaker 2: So he was a father of three children, and the

276
00:14:17,885 --> 00:14:20,725
Speaker 2: youngest one was pretty small, and the oldest one was

277
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Speaker 2: like maybe in middle school, So you know, he was

278
00:14:23,365 --> 00:14:26,165
Speaker 2: in a phase of life that you know, also was complicated.

279
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Speaker 2: He had every ability to be like, oh, he'll no,

280
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Speaker 2: this is not going to work, and he didn't. And

281
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Speaker 2: I had already written a letter, and I had asked

282
00:14:35,645 --> 00:14:38,685
Speaker 2: the sperm bank when he made contact to forward that letter.

283
00:14:39,245 --> 00:14:41,485
Speaker 2: I had in my mom's and her folder. I had

284
00:14:41,565 --> 00:14:44,285
Speaker 2: read so many stories of people who were just outright

285
00:14:44,405 --> 00:14:48,445
Speaker 2: rejected by their biological parent, and it ended up becoming

286
00:14:48,445 --> 00:14:49,765
Speaker 2: a fear of mine and I was like, if I

287
00:14:49,805 --> 00:14:51,725
Speaker 2: only have one chance, like I want to be able

288
00:14:51,725 --> 00:14:55,645
Speaker 2: to convey who I am through a letter, and if

289
00:14:55,685 --> 00:14:57,925
Speaker 2: that's all he ever sees and reads, like, maybe that'll

290
00:14:57,965 --> 00:15:00,965
Speaker 2: be enough. And we ended up connecting and then it

291
00:15:01,005 --> 00:15:03,325
Speaker 2: turned to email. I would forward an email to the

292
00:15:03,365 --> 00:15:05,565
Speaker 2: sperm bank, the sperm bank would forward him, and that

293
00:15:05,685 --> 00:15:08,125
Speaker 2: was it, and then we cut them out and then

294
00:15:08,325 --> 00:15:11,405
Speaker 2: ended up talking on the just like forever. And then

295
00:15:11,525 --> 00:15:13,845
Speaker 2: I was living in Austin and college at this time,

296
00:15:14,085 --> 00:15:16,125
Speaker 2: and he flew down to meet me for the first time.

297
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Speaker 2: What was that Like, Oh, I was amazing. I mean

298
00:15:19,645 --> 00:15:22,085
Speaker 2: I was. He came to my apartment and I just

299
00:15:22,125 --> 00:15:23,605
Speaker 2: I opened the door and it was just like a

300
00:15:23,845 --> 00:15:28,165
Speaker 2: huge hug and just we stayed for hours talking in

301
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Speaker 2: my living room and then went to dinner and live

302
00:15:30,525 --> 00:15:33,845
Speaker 2: music and it was just catching up on at this

303
00:15:33,885 --> 00:15:38,245
Speaker 2: point nineteen years. I think because I didn't I didn't

304
00:15:38,285 --> 00:15:40,605
Speaker 2: have any expectations. I didn't know how it was supposed

305
00:15:40,645 --> 00:15:43,405
Speaker 2: to go. And because he is who he is, which

306
00:15:43,445 --> 00:15:46,525
Speaker 2: is just this like amazing open person and I am

307
00:15:46,565 --> 00:15:49,245
Speaker 2: who I am, Like it just worked and it was

308
00:15:49,325 --> 00:15:52,765
Speaker 2: that weekend, the first weekend of meeting him, we ran

309
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Speaker 2: into a friend, one of my friends on the street,

310
00:15:54,925 --> 00:15:57,845
Speaker 2: and just for social clarity, I was like, oh, this

311
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Speaker 2: is my dad. And at the end of that he

312
00:16:00,165 --> 00:16:02,165
Speaker 2: was like, if you will call me that, I'm okay

313
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Speaker 2: with that. And then from that moment one.

314
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Speaker 1: He was dad, and you had three new little siblings.

315
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Speaker 2: I did, but they didn't know yet. They didn't know

316
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Speaker 2: until much later.

317
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Speaker 1: Again, it's a tricky conversation with the little kids. So

318
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Speaker 1: her dad was high in college and he jumped off

319
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Speaker 1: into a cop one day for twenty bucks.

320
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Speaker 2: Yeah, but for him, you know, it's also he had

321
00:16:24,805 --> 00:16:26,605
Speaker 2: to tell his wife and then I don't know if

322
00:16:26,605 --> 00:16:28,965
Speaker 2: it ever really came up, like you know, while they

323
00:16:28,965 --> 00:16:32,005
Speaker 2: were dating, it never really came up. So he had

324
00:16:32,045 --> 00:16:35,485
Speaker 2: to tell her. And I totally get this. You know,

325
00:16:35,525 --> 00:16:38,165
Speaker 2: as a mother of three myself, I would be pretty

326
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Speaker 2: protective too, So I really understood her desire to not

327
00:16:43,365 --> 00:16:45,445
Speaker 2: want to tell the kids right away, and so it

328
00:16:45,565 --> 00:16:49,965
Speaker 2: took multiple years for them to disclose me to them.

329
00:16:50,565 --> 00:16:52,605
Speaker 2: I feel like this is happens in donor conception a

330
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Speaker 2: lot with parents that disclose when when they're older and

331
00:16:55,445 --> 00:16:57,925
Speaker 2: everybody's nervous and like, oh my gosh, this is going

332
00:16:58,005 --> 00:16:59,765
Speaker 2: to go so bad. They're gonna like freak out and

333
00:16:59,805 --> 00:17:02,485
Speaker 2: never talk to us again. And they told the kids,

334
00:17:02,965 --> 00:17:04,725
Speaker 2: and my sister was like, oh my god, I have

335
00:17:04,765 --> 00:17:08,205
Speaker 2: a sister. And then the two boys were like, that's cool.

336
00:17:08,245 --> 00:17:08,965
Speaker 2: What's for dinner?

337
00:17:09,605 --> 00:17:09,725
Speaker 1: Yea?

338
00:17:10,005 --> 00:17:12,485
Speaker 2: And my dad's like that's it and they're like yeah,

339
00:17:12,565 --> 00:17:14,245
Speaker 2: I mean do we get to like meter or something

340
00:17:14,285 --> 00:17:16,605
Speaker 2: like that? Sounds cool? And they're like, oh my god.

341
00:17:17,285 --> 00:17:22,445
Speaker 1: It never ceases to delight me how disinterested kids are

342
00:17:22,485 --> 00:17:23,965
Speaker 1: in their parents' lives.

343
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Speaker 2: I know, right, it's all our social construct in projection.

344
00:17:29,565 --> 00:17:33,645
Speaker 1: What was your relationship like with your dad's wife, Like,

345
00:17:33,805 --> 00:17:35,725
Speaker 1: and I imagine you have this experience as well with

346
00:17:35,765 --> 00:17:38,685
Speaker 1: the work that you do meeting a lot of donor kids.

347
00:17:39,285 --> 00:17:43,045
Speaker 1: The relationship with the partner of the donum must be

348
00:17:43,205 --> 00:17:44,445
Speaker 1: often fraud.

349
00:17:44,245 --> 00:17:47,165
Speaker 2: Is it? You know? I think in this instance, like

350
00:17:47,245 --> 00:17:50,325
Speaker 2: I could recognize the level of protectiveness, and I was

351
00:17:50,405 --> 00:17:54,485
Speaker 2: really leaning on dad to kind of facilitate that relationship

352
00:17:54,565 --> 00:17:57,325
Speaker 2: because I didn't want obviously to push. But I think

353
00:17:57,325 --> 00:17:59,525
Speaker 2: that they did a really good job of keeping it separate.

354
00:18:00,005 --> 00:18:02,405
Speaker 2: I didn't really get to have a lot of interaction

355
00:18:02,525 --> 00:18:05,405
Speaker 2: with her until my wedding. I think that really kind

356
00:18:05,405 --> 00:18:08,005
Speaker 2: of changed our relationship. We really didn't have a lot

357
00:18:08,005 --> 00:18:11,245
Speaker 2: of interface, you know, geograph. We lived in different parts

358
00:18:11,285 --> 00:18:14,245
Speaker 2: of the country. It was always quite an effort to

359
00:18:14,365 --> 00:18:16,565
Speaker 2: visit on either one of our parts.

360
00:18:17,205 --> 00:18:21,045
Speaker 1: After this short break, Eve makes another unsettling discovery that

361
00:18:21,125 --> 00:18:30,045
Speaker 1: will change her life forever. Your relationship with your dad progressed.

362
00:18:30,045 --> 00:18:32,925
Speaker 1: As you say, he officiated at your wedding. He did,

363
00:18:33,685 --> 00:18:36,365
Speaker 1: so you stayed in touch over the next few years.

364
00:18:37,085 --> 00:18:40,365
Speaker 1: The next installment of this story, and the plot twist

365
00:18:40,565 --> 00:18:43,765
Speaker 1: comes when you go on to have children of your

366
00:18:43,805 --> 00:18:46,885
Speaker 1: own and your son becomes sick. What happened to him?

367
00:18:47,325 --> 00:18:50,525
Speaker 2: So my oldest when he was a baby, he was

368
00:18:50,605 --> 00:18:54,045
Speaker 2: vomiting a lot, and he wasn't eating real food, and

369
00:18:54,085 --> 00:18:55,885
Speaker 2: there were all of these things that all of our

370
00:18:55,925 --> 00:18:58,845
Speaker 2: doctors were like, you know, these allergies, and no one

371
00:18:58,845 --> 00:19:01,765
Speaker 2: could really figure out what it is. And about three

372
00:19:01,805 --> 00:19:03,845
Speaker 2: years of all of that, I was like, we got

373
00:19:03,885 --> 00:19:06,765
Speaker 2: to do something different. They recommended looking in more into

374
00:19:06,805 --> 00:19:09,205
Speaker 2: like genetics, and so I was working with this functional

375
00:19:09,525 --> 00:19:12,485
Speaker 2: in doctor and he was like, let's get some info

376
00:19:12,525 --> 00:19:15,485
Speaker 2: on your DNA. The easiest way to do that at

377
00:19:15,485 --> 00:19:17,765
Speaker 2: the time was the commercial DNA test twenty three and

378
00:19:17,805 --> 00:19:20,085
Speaker 2: ME plus health and he'd get what was called raw data.

379
00:19:20,765 --> 00:19:24,685
Speaker 2: So we did that and he called back and he said, hey, Eve,

380
00:19:24,965 --> 00:19:29,125
Speaker 2: it's Celiac disease. And I was like what. I had

381
00:19:29,205 --> 00:19:32,325
Speaker 2: no idea what Celiac disease was. I had no idea

382
00:19:32,365 --> 00:19:35,005
Speaker 2: what an autoimmune disorder was. And he's like, yeah, that's

383
00:19:35,005 --> 00:19:37,445
Speaker 2: what it is, and it's coming from you. And I

384
00:19:37,485 --> 00:19:39,925
Speaker 2: was like, what are you talking about. He's like, you

385
00:19:39,925 --> 00:19:42,485
Speaker 2: need to go get better family history from you know,

386
00:19:42,605 --> 00:19:45,725
Speaker 2: your biological father and biological mother. And so I'm in

387
00:19:45,725 --> 00:19:49,125
Speaker 2: my family, like, who has these stomach issues in coeliac

388
00:19:49,165 --> 00:19:49,805
Speaker 2: and allergies.

389
00:19:49,965 --> 00:19:51,885
Speaker 1: No one, because it's hereditary.

390
00:19:52,165 --> 00:19:54,525
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's turn serious. So the bigger thing at

391
00:19:54,525 --> 00:19:57,845
Speaker 2: the time was like, Okay, now we know a diagnosis

392
00:19:57,885 --> 00:20:00,565
Speaker 2: is a prognosis, right, And so I was so focused

393
00:20:00,565 --> 00:20:03,605
Speaker 2: on just making my son healthy. The second part of

394
00:20:03,645 --> 00:20:06,245
Speaker 2: this is that there's an ancestry component to the commercial

395
00:20:06,325 --> 00:20:08,565
Speaker 2: DNA testing. And I don't know if you're familiar with

396
00:20:08,605 --> 00:20:12,605
Speaker 2: the platform, but a lot of my DNA connections were

397
00:20:12,645 --> 00:20:16,285
Speaker 2: saying things like close family to first cousins, and so

398
00:20:16,525 --> 00:20:20,685
Speaker 2: I wasn't really thinking half sibling because I guess I

399
00:20:20,725 --> 00:20:22,525
Speaker 2: just assumed it was a perfect science and would say

400
00:20:22,525 --> 00:20:23,125
Speaker 2: half sibling.

401
00:20:23,445 --> 00:20:25,525
Speaker 1: So it was one of those like twenty three and

402
00:20:25,645 --> 00:20:29,045
Speaker 1: Me or ancestry dot Com that you do the test

403
00:20:29,205 --> 00:20:32,365
Speaker 1: and then they show you who all your relatives my bay.

404
00:20:32,725 --> 00:20:36,565
Speaker 2: Right, those who have also taken the test and at

405
00:20:36,565 --> 00:20:39,485
Speaker 2: about you. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And I

406
00:20:39,565 --> 00:20:42,445
Speaker 2: knew from talking with California cr ibink that dad was

407
00:20:42,485 --> 00:20:44,525
Speaker 2: a popular spirm downer, but they had told me that

408
00:20:44,565 --> 00:20:46,285
Speaker 2: I was one of the older ones, you know. I

409
00:20:46,325 --> 00:20:47,885
Speaker 2: was like, sure, I'm sure this will be happening, but

410
00:20:47,925 --> 00:20:49,525
Speaker 2: it was still newer at this time. This was like

411
00:20:49,525 --> 00:20:52,845
Speaker 2: two thousand and eighteen, and so you know, you just

412
00:20:52,845 --> 00:20:54,965
Speaker 2: don't know what you don't know. So we go on

413
00:20:55,045 --> 00:20:59,245
Speaker 2: vacation and my mom is actually with me and she's like, hey, Eve,

414
00:20:59,605 --> 00:21:02,445
Speaker 2: I actually think those are your half siblings. Like, you know,

415
00:21:02,485 --> 00:21:05,325
Speaker 2: look at like the degree in which you're related, and

416
00:21:05,365 --> 00:21:08,365
Speaker 2: it could be like a different each number is for

417
00:21:08,445 --> 00:21:11,645
Speaker 2: something different, and so then I was like, oh my gosh.

418
00:21:11,685 --> 00:21:14,365
Speaker 2: So then I'm like, you know, on social media, and

419
00:21:14,405 --> 00:21:17,125
Speaker 2: I'm sending the messages through the platform and I connected

420
00:21:17,165 --> 00:21:22,205
Speaker 2: with one and bless his sweet little heart. He is

421
00:21:22,445 --> 00:21:25,765
Speaker 2: from my area where I grew up, and he was like, no,

422
00:21:26,285 --> 00:21:29,245
Speaker 2: I know who you know our dad is and I

423
00:21:29,285 --> 00:21:30,765
Speaker 2: was like, no, no, no, that's our mom's doctor that

424
00:21:30,805 --> 00:21:34,605
Speaker 2: did the insemination, Steve Donner when I six from Oregon.

425
00:21:34,645 --> 00:21:38,005
Speaker 2: He's our biological father. But I don't want to project

426
00:21:38,165 --> 00:21:40,125
Speaker 2: my story onto you guys, so I'm going to have

427
00:21:40,205 --> 00:21:42,245
Speaker 2: him do that DNA test and then you guys can

428
00:21:42,245 --> 00:21:45,045
Speaker 2: figure out if y'all want a relationship. And honestly, I

429
00:21:45,085 --> 00:21:48,045
Speaker 2: just thought he was love you, Andrew, but a redneck

430
00:21:48,245 --> 00:21:51,445
Speaker 2: that just wasn't very smart. And so that was that one.

431
00:21:51,805 --> 00:21:53,725
Speaker 2: And then I kept going down, you know, the list

432
00:21:54,485 --> 00:21:57,085
Speaker 2: of connecting others siblings, and then I came up with

433
00:21:57,165 --> 00:21:59,885
Speaker 2: one who wasn't on social media, but I found him

434
00:21:59,925 --> 00:22:04,005
Speaker 2: on LinkedIn and it was late at night. I messaged

435
00:22:04,045 --> 00:22:06,925
Speaker 2: him and was like, hey, are you the Adam on

436
00:22:07,005 --> 00:22:09,325
Speaker 2: twenty three and me? And he's like yes. I was like,

437
00:22:09,405 --> 00:22:10,685
Speaker 2: I need to talk to you, and he's like, well,

438
00:22:10,725 --> 00:22:12,765
Speaker 2: I think it'd be kind of hard to explain to

439
00:22:12,845 --> 00:22:14,365
Speaker 2: my wife why I need to get out of bed

440
00:22:14,445 --> 00:22:17,285
Speaker 2: to call another woman. I was like, oh, to totally

441
00:22:17,325 --> 00:22:19,525
Speaker 2: get that. I just think I'm like, you're half sibling,

442
00:22:19,965 --> 00:22:23,485
Speaker 2: so just call me tomorrow and my phone immediately rain

443
00:22:23,805 --> 00:22:28,365
Speaker 2: and he's like, okay, you have my attention. Yeah, impulsivity

444
00:22:28,565 --> 00:22:32,125
Speaker 2: was not my future of that night, but yeah, he

445
00:22:32,285 --> 00:22:34,045
Speaker 2: is the one that I talked to you, and I

446
00:22:34,085 --> 00:22:36,365
Speaker 2: thought that you know so much of when you're donor

447
00:22:36,405 --> 00:22:40,245
Speaker 2: conceived or you're non parent expected result, there's always someone

448
00:22:40,365 --> 00:22:43,885
Speaker 2: that is delivering that news right or putting the pieces

449
00:22:43,885 --> 00:22:48,245
Speaker 2: together when it comes out of these platforms. I was like,

450
00:22:48,245 --> 00:22:50,325
Speaker 2: we're donor conceived and he's like, no, there's no way.

451
00:22:50,365 --> 00:22:52,845
Speaker 2: I look like my dad. That's our white story. I

452
00:22:52,885 --> 00:22:55,085
Speaker 2: have a brother. Okay, so we go this whole thing

453
00:22:55,125 --> 00:22:56,165
Speaker 2: and I'm like, all right, and you.

454
00:22:56,125 --> 00:22:57,165
Speaker 1: Just thought he was in denial.

455
00:22:57,325 --> 00:22:58,645
Speaker 2: I thought he was in denial. I mean, and most

456
00:22:58,645 --> 00:23:01,205
Speaker 2: suppose people are right like this stream on the internet

457
00:23:01,245 --> 00:23:03,805
Speaker 2: and like this is weird. So I was like, okay,

458
00:23:04,045 --> 00:23:06,445
Speaker 2: so if you are my first cousin, and that means

459
00:23:06,565 --> 00:23:10,645
Speaker 2: that your uncle is my biological father, is your uncle

460
00:23:10,965 --> 00:23:15,085
Speaker 2: Steve Shoul And he said no, my uncle is Kim mcmaury's.

461
00:23:16,005 --> 00:23:21,725
Speaker 2: And my world stopped because Kim mcmaury's is doctor Kim

462
00:23:21,805 --> 00:23:25,365
Speaker 2: mcmoury's and was my mom's fertility doctor. And at that

463
00:23:25,525 --> 00:23:28,845
Speaker 2: time I knew it was like everything just kind of

464
00:23:28,845 --> 00:23:31,125
Speaker 2: made sense, even like the little red flags that I've

465
00:23:31,165 --> 00:23:34,885
Speaker 2: been seeing before, like the timeline's not matching up. And

466
00:23:34,925 --> 00:23:38,245
Speaker 2: then it was wow, like I know that people lie

467
00:23:38,645 --> 00:23:42,005
Speaker 2: and DNA doesn't lie, and it was just starting all

468
00:23:42,045 --> 00:23:44,325
Speaker 2: over again, and it was the truth.

469
00:23:44,845 --> 00:23:47,885
Speaker 1: After you hung up the phone, What was going through

470
00:23:47,925 --> 00:23:48,645
Speaker 1: your head.

471
00:23:49,365 --> 00:23:51,605
Speaker 2: A little bit like when I was sixteen years old,

472
00:23:51,605 --> 00:23:55,925
Speaker 2: of that moment of I am onto something very big

473
00:23:56,445 --> 00:24:00,445
Speaker 2: that is going to impact more than just myself. I

474
00:24:00,485 --> 00:24:05,325
Speaker 2: remember literally downing my glass of wine and deciding all

475
00:24:05,365 --> 00:24:08,125
Speaker 2: over again because my mom was upstairs watching a movie

476
00:24:08,165 --> 00:24:11,445
Speaker 2: with my in laws. And my choice was to pretend

477
00:24:11,525 --> 00:24:14,365
Speaker 2: like I never discovered this and continue to live a

478
00:24:14,485 --> 00:24:16,605
Speaker 2: fairy tale life with my dad and my mom and

479
00:24:16,685 --> 00:24:17,725
Speaker 2: just pretend like it never.

480
00:24:17,645 --> 00:24:20,605
Speaker 1: Happens, your second dad stave yep, my.

481
00:24:20,605 --> 00:24:24,765
Speaker 2: Second dad, or to go right upstairs, which is what

482
00:24:24,885 --> 00:24:27,845
Speaker 2: I did, like I was sixteen years old, and tell

483
00:24:27,885 --> 00:24:32,365
Speaker 2: her again that my real biological father was her fertility doctor.

484
00:24:32,765 --> 00:24:36,165
Speaker 1: In that moment, did you think, oh, maybe there was

485
00:24:36,205 --> 00:24:40,205
Speaker 1: a mistake or straight away you knew that it had

486
00:24:40,205 --> 00:24:41,845
Speaker 1: been a deliberate.

487
00:24:41,405 --> 00:24:45,125
Speaker 2: Deceit straight away. I knew, how did you know one

488
00:24:45,165 --> 00:24:49,045
Speaker 2: of the half siblings I connected with was thirteen years older,

489
00:24:49,685 --> 00:24:52,045
Speaker 2: and that was kind of my big indicator. The one

490
00:24:52,085 --> 00:24:55,125
Speaker 2: that I had just spoken to was older. And so

491
00:24:55,245 --> 00:24:58,125
Speaker 2: it's kind of like piecing these things together of you know,

492
00:24:58,165 --> 00:25:02,685
Speaker 2: that timeline didn't work. And again, I mean people lie,

493
00:25:02,925 --> 00:25:04,925
Speaker 2: DNA doesn't lie. It's hard to have a level of

494
00:25:04,965 --> 00:25:08,445
Speaker 2: cognitive dissonance. Whenever the DNA is staring straight at you.

495
00:25:08,445 --> 00:25:10,565
Speaker 1: Your mom must have fained. I have stated, how did

496
00:25:10,605 --> 00:25:13,405
Speaker 1: Stave react? Because you had to break then you see him?

497
00:25:14,085 --> 00:25:18,045
Speaker 2: So actually I didn't tell him until weeks later because

498
00:25:18,445 --> 00:25:21,365
Speaker 2: I think there was a small part of me that

499
00:25:21,485 --> 00:25:24,565
Speaker 2: was really hoping that it wasn't true. There was also

500
00:25:24,845 --> 00:25:27,485
Speaker 2: that I knew there was not going to be the

501
00:25:27,525 --> 00:25:29,885
Speaker 2: fairy tale, There was not going to be the relationship

502
00:25:30,085 --> 00:25:33,725
Speaker 2: because I was the one that was protecting the secret,

503
00:25:33,965 --> 00:25:37,485
Speaker 2: and without truth and transparency, there was never going to

504
00:25:37,525 --> 00:25:40,405
Speaker 2: be an authentic relationship with my real biological father if

505
00:25:40,445 --> 00:25:44,205
Speaker 2: I was keeping a secret. I waited until I knew

506
00:25:44,205 --> 00:25:46,885
Speaker 2: that that DNA test the result to ron was there

507
00:25:47,085 --> 00:25:48,925
Speaker 2: the commercial DNA test and then I called him and

508
00:25:48,925 --> 00:25:50,805
Speaker 2: I told him, and it was the hardest part of

509
00:25:50,845 --> 00:25:53,845
Speaker 2: this entire process. But it was like a daddy wound

510
00:25:53,885 --> 00:25:56,005
Speaker 2: just being like ripped open again. I was so afraid

511
00:25:56,045 --> 00:25:59,645
Speaker 2: of rejection. And even though I knew that nothing would

512
00:25:59,725 --> 00:26:02,365
Speaker 2: undo the thirteen years of his building this relationship, I

513
00:26:02,405 --> 00:26:05,525
Speaker 2: was still so worried because so much, you know, I

514
00:26:05,605 --> 00:26:08,205
Speaker 2: initiated this relationship and it was wrong. There was so

515
00:26:08,365 --> 00:26:11,485
Speaker 2: much guilt. And I told him and we just cried

516
00:26:11,725 --> 00:26:14,565
Speaker 2: and cried and cried, and at the very end of it,

517
00:26:14,605 --> 00:26:16,245
Speaker 2: he said, you know, it changes some things, but it

518
00:26:16,285 --> 00:26:18,285
Speaker 2: doesn't change the fact that you're my daughter, and it's

519
00:26:18,285 --> 00:26:21,245
Speaker 2: all I need to do, you know. That was it

520
00:26:21,285 --> 00:26:22,725
Speaker 2: was like, and I support you know, whatever you do,

521
00:26:22,805 --> 00:26:25,045
Speaker 2: but I think that you know, for me, I was

522
00:26:25,085 --> 00:26:28,565
Speaker 2: so shocked by it. But was more shocking is that

523
00:26:28,885 --> 00:26:31,725
Speaker 2: you know, in talking to my attorneys that it wasn't

524
00:26:31,765 --> 00:26:34,925
Speaker 2: a crime. And so how is it that we know

525
00:26:35,045 --> 00:26:39,005
Speaker 2: that this is morally wrong, but this is not legally wrong.

526
00:26:39,085 --> 00:26:42,245
Speaker 2: And so when morality doesn't equal legality, what do you

527
00:26:42,365 --> 00:26:42,925
Speaker 2: do with it?

528
00:26:43,245 --> 00:26:48,565
Speaker 1: So hold on one second, it wasn't legally wrong for

529
00:26:48,725 --> 00:26:54,085
Speaker 1: your mother's fertility doctor to go into another room masturvating

530
00:26:54,085 --> 00:26:58,805
Speaker 1: a cup, come back and put the DNA of someone

531
00:26:58,885 --> 00:27:03,285
Speaker 1: she hasn't consented to being inseminated with into your mother's

532
00:27:03,285 --> 00:27:06,885
Speaker 1: body without ever telling her or getting her consent.

533
00:27:07,365 --> 00:27:10,085
Speaker 2: Correct, there was no civil laws of it, and there

534
00:27:10,165 --> 00:27:13,605
Speaker 2: was no criminal cause of action for this. Remember earlier

535
00:27:13,725 --> 00:27:18,045
Speaker 2: when I talked about anonymity breeds fraud. He can hide

536
00:27:18,085 --> 00:27:22,605
Speaker 2: behind an anonymous sperm donor, even though the informed consent

537
00:27:22,925 --> 00:27:26,045
Speaker 2: was for donor one oh six from California Crybank. And

538
00:27:26,085 --> 00:27:28,805
Speaker 2: the answer is because, quite frankly, we do not have

539
00:27:28,885 --> 00:27:29,845
Speaker 2: laws against it.

540
00:27:30,165 --> 00:27:32,925
Speaker 1: So did you confront this doctor? What did you do?

541
00:27:33,405 --> 00:27:37,445
Speaker 2: It? Did? So? I've also known this man of pretty

542
00:27:37,525 --> 00:27:39,805
Speaker 2: much my entire life. You know, he is a pillar

543
00:27:40,085 --> 00:27:43,925
Speaker 2: in our community. People love him, you know, he's one

544
00:27:43,965 --> 00:27:46,405
Speaker 2: of the very few doctors in East Texas that was

545
00:27:46,445 --> 00:27:50,925
Speaker 2: an OV. You know. Everybody loves him. And I did

546
00:27:50,965 --> 00:27:53,965
Speaker 2: everything by writing told him that I am his through

547
00:27:54,005 --> 00:27:56,845
Speaker 2: commercial study testing, I am his daughter, and he wrote

548
00:27:56,925 --> 00:27:59,885
Speaker 2: me back, just the smoke and mirror show. You know,

549
00:27:59,925 --> 00:28:02,765
Speaker 2: it appears that you would have inherited some of my genetics.

550
00:28:03,405 --> 00:28:05,485
Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, dumb ass, fifty percent of

551
00:28:05,525 --> 00:28:08,005
Speaker 2: them like kind of know that works, and then he

552
00:28:08,045 --> 00:28:09,765
Speaker 2: went on this whole thing of like, oh, I used

553
00:28:09,765 --> 00:28:13,005
Speaker 2: a mylex cup in this syringe, and in my donor program,

554
00:28:13,285 --> 00:28:17,245
Speaker 2: you know, there were five successful pregnancies, three ended with

555
00:28:17,405 --> 00:28:21,725
Speaker 2: you know, spontaneous miscarriage, and two offspring. And I was like, well,

556
00:28:21,725 --> 00:28:24,365
Speaker 2: that's funny because I'm looking at commercial DNA testing and

557
00:28:24,405 --> 00:28:26,325
Speaker 2: I can see that I have five half siblings. So

558
00:28:26,565 --> 00:28:29,765
Speaker 2: immediately I knew he was lying yeah. And then I

559
00:28:29,805 --> 00:28:31,565
Speaker 2: was like, okay, well you want to play, let's go.

560
00:28:31,925 --> 00:28:35,365
Speaker 2: So it just became more correspondence where he would say

561
00:28:35,365 --> 00:28:37,045
Speaker 2: something and then I would poke a hole in it.

562
00:28:37,245 --> 00:28:38,645
Speaker 1: He fucked with the wrong woman.

563
00:28:39,125 --> 00:28:41,685
Speaker 2: He fucked with the wrong woman. He did, and he

564
00:28:41,845 --> 00:28:43,605
Speaker 2: knows that now and it was a hard lesson for

565
00:28:43,685 --> 00:28:45,485
Speaker 2: him to learn, but by god, did he learn it.

566
00:28:46,565 --> 00:28:48,205
Speaker 2: And I really think that he thought I would just

567
00:28:48,245 --> 00:28:51,565
Speaker 2: buy as bullshit, and like maybe I wasn't smart enough,

568
00:28:51,725 --> 00:28:53,285
Speaker 2: or you know, I think he so used to being

569
00:28:53,325 --> 00:28:57,085
Speaker 2: the authority and where he lives that you know, my god,

570
00:28:57,125 --> 00:28:58,405
Speaker 2: no woman would challenge him.

571
00:28:58,805 --> 00:28:58,965
Speaker 1: Oh.

572
00:28:58,965 --> 00:29:00,885
Speaker 2: There was one line that was so cringe, you know,

573
00:29:00,965 --> 00:29:03,365
Speaker 2: it was it was a pleasure to be able to

574
00:29:03,525 --> 00:29:06,565
Speaker 2: deliver a baby girl to my mother and my father,

575
00:29:07,285 --> 00:29:09,285
Speaker 2: and you know I should just be grateful. Well then

576
00:29:09,565 --> 00:29:12,805
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, well I want medical information because now, like,

577
00:29:12,925 --> 00:29:14,605
Speaker 2: not only did you fuck with me, but it's now

578
00:29:14,645 --> 00:29:18,245
Speaker 2: it's my kid. Now Mama Bear is mad. There's medical information.

579
00:29:18,285 --> 00:29:20,845
Speaker 2: I would have made different medical decisions on my child.

580
00:29:21,405 --> 00:29:23,885
Speaker 2: He didn't need all of those exploratory surgeries had we

581
00:29:23,965 --> 00:29:26,725
Speaker 2: have known what it was in the first place. So

582
00:29:26,805 --> 00:29:29,925
Speaker 2: then he sends me this response of like, my I

583
00:29:29,925 --> 00:29:32,965
Speaker 2: call him social kids. He says, his kids, his known kids.

584
00:29:33,485 --> 00:29:35,645
Speaker 2: You know, they're all iron men and they're doctors. And

585
00:29:35,645 --> 00:29:37,325
Speaker 2: it was just a brag list. And I was like, well,

586
00:29:37,325 --> 00:29:40,085
Speaker 2: you forgot the fact that you had cancer like melanoma,

587
00:29:40,205 --> 00:29:42,085
Speaker 2: or that my brother had a brain tumor, like it

588
00:29:42,125 --> 00:29:45,085
Speaker 2: was nothing a substance. So we just kind of kept going,

589
00:29:45,485 --> 00:29:48,005
Speaker 2: and I'm pissed, right, but there was still part of me,

590
00:29:48,205 --> 00:29:52,525
Speaker 2: like I still wanted to know him. I still Pollyanna

591
00:29:52,685 --> 00:29:55,765
Speaker 2: was like, you know what, we could totally work through this,

592
00:29:56,005 --> 00:29:58,525
Speaker 2: and your dad the doctor the doctor. I was like,

593
00:29:58,565 --> 00:30:00,445
Speaker 2: we could totally work through this, and the only way

594
00:30:00,485 --> 00:30:02,605
Speaker 2: to do that was to level the playing field. So

595
00:30:02,685 --> 00:30:04,965
Speaker 2: I told him, I said, I am going to be

596
00:30:05,005 --> 00:30:08,085
Speaker 2: going to the Texas Legislature and I'm going to be

597
00:30:08,125 --> 00:30:10,085
Speaker 2: lobbying to make this a crime because if this is

598
00:30:10,125 --> 00:30:13,125
Speaker 2: the thinking at the time, it was wrong and it

599
00:30:13,165 --> 00:30:17,125
Speaker 2: needs to be criminalized. So let's make this bigger than ourselves.

600
00:30:17,325 --> 00:30:19,765
Speaker 2: What a beautiful way for us to do this together

601
00:30:19,965 --> 00:30:21,605
Speaker 2: and to be able to share that message. And we

602
00:30:21,605 --> 00:30:23,765
Speaker 2: could and we could do it like if you really cared.

603
00:30:24,445 --> 00:30:26,165
Speaker 2: And then, of course I never heard from them.

604
00:30:26,645 --> 00:30:28,605
Speaker 1: So did he try to claim that your mom knew

605
00:30:28,645 --> 00:30:31,245
Speaker 1: about it and that it was his sperm? Or he

606
00:30:31,365 --> 00:30:36,485
Speaker 1: admitted that, yeah, I just used mine, Because why did

607
00:30:36,525 --> 00:30:37,525
Speaker 1: he ever tell you why?

608
00:30:38,285 --> 00:30:41,285
Speaker 2: So he said that he was mixing it. And he

609
00:30:41,565 --> 00:30:45,085
Speaker 2: said that he was a sperm donor when he was

610
00:30:45,125 --> 00:30:48,605
Speaker 2: in college, so that would have been about twelve thirteen

611
00:30:48,685 --> 00:30:51,925
Speaker 2: years before I was conceived. And so he went to

612
00:30:52,165 --> 00:30:56,325
Speaker 2: his former medical school and he got his old Dustys

613
00:30:56,485 --> 00:30:59,685
Speaker 2: sperm vials, drove them to his clinic in East Texas,

614
00:30:59,965 --> 00:31:02,445
Speaker 2: and that is what he used because Donor one oh

615
00:31:02,565 --> 00:31:05,245
Speaker 2: six wasn't performing like it should have been.

616
00:31:05,645 --> 00:31:08,645
Speaker 1: How many children did he father this way? Or you

617
00:31:08,725 --> 00:31:09,605
Speaker 1: don't know the.

618
00:31:09,565 --> 00:31:13,125
Speaker 2: Truth is we don't know. I currently have fourteen half siblings,

619
00:31:13,245 --> 00:31:15,285
Speaker 2: three of those are his social children.

620
00:31:15,725 --> 00:31:19,005
Speaker 1: When you say social children, you mean children that he

621
00:31:19,485 --> 00:31:21,765
Speaker 1: can saved with his partner.

622
00:31:21,725 --> 00:31:24,485
Speaker 2: Correct, that are known socially as.

623
00:31:24,285 --> 00:31:26,765
Speaker 1: His And how did the rest feel about it? How

624
00:31:26,765 --> 00:31:27,925
Speaker 1: did they all find out.

625
00:31:28,005 --> 00:31:31,605
Speaker 2: Same way commercial DNA testing. Several of them saw me

626
00:31:31,685 --> 00:31:34,285
Speaker 2: on TV and saw his picture and saw me, and

627
00:31:34,645 --> 00:31:36,445
Speaker 2: I was like, whoa, I kind of look like that.

628
00:31:37,165 --> 00:31:41,405
Speaker 2: The mcmory's features are pretty defining. I am like kind

629
00:31:41,445 --> 00:31:44,125
Speaker 2: of outlier in the sense that I'm not over six

630
00:31:44,125 --> 00:31:47,845
Speaker 2: feet tall, but all of my siblings are between like

631
00:31:48,045 --> 00:31:50,805
Speaker 2: six feet and like six six even the women are

632
00:31:50,805 --> 00:31:53,245
Speaker 2: like six to six two, very tall. I'm just like

633
00:31:53,325 --> 00:31:56,805
Speaker 2: the little, like five seven short chihuahua. I'm just really loud.

634
00:31:57,045 --> 00:31:58,925
Speaker 1: You were the rumpt.

635
00:32:01,045 --> 00:32:03,645
Speaker 2: It literally like you have those like this and pictures

636
00:32:03,685 --> 00:32:04,565
Speaker 2: and there's I'm.

637
00:32:04,485 --> 00:32:06,965
Speaker 1: Seven is not that small, but if everyone else is

638
00:32:07,005 --> 00:32:10,165
Speaker 1: six foot two, then it's see.

639
00:32:10,005 --> 00:32:14,045
Speaker 2: Us hall in a few we actually found So I

640
00:32:14,165 --> 00:32:17,525
Speaker 2: connected with some former people that worked with him during

641
00:32:17,525 --> 00:32:19,765
Speaker 2: the time, and I was able to get a pretty

642
00:32:19,805 --> 00:32:23,685
Speaker 2: accurate historical context of just how large his program was.

643
00:32:24,125 --> 00:32:26,725
Speaker 2: So he was seeing between fifty to sixty women a day,

644
00:32:27,325 --> 00:32:31,845
Speaker 2: and they couldn't determine the percentage of those that were

645
00:32:31,845 --> 00:32:34,085
Speaker 2: infertility patients, but they said that it was a lot.

646
00:32:35,005 --> 00:32:38,525
Speaker 2: One of them found out what he was doing and quit.

647
00:32:39,325 --> 00:32:41,445
Speaker 2: So yeah, they kind of pieced together a lot of it.

648
00:32:42,045 --> 00:32:46,285
Speaker 2: I went through yearbooks in the area and, like I said,

649
00:32:46,285 --> 00:32:49,245
Speaker 2: defining features, and then people would send me names like hey,

650
00:32:49,325 --> 00:32:51,445
Speaker 2: this person kind of looks like you. And that's how

651
00:32:51,445 --> 00:32:53,445
Speaker 2: we found several of them, is me reaching out to

652
00:32:53,525 --> 00:32:56,165
Speaker 2: them saying, this is kind of weird, but I think

653
00:32:56,285 --> 00:32:58,485
Speaker 2: maybe my sibling, can I send you a DNA test?

654
00:32:58,645 --> 00:33:00,565
Speaker 2: And so that's what I ultimately did.

655
00:33:01,085 --> 00:33:03,485
Speaker 1: When you were in public, you did an interview with

656
00:33:03,565 --> 00:33:08,245
Speaker 1: the Kinnifas Program twenty twenty. What was the reaction in

657
00:33:08,285 --> 00:33:12,005
Speaker 1: your community? Where was this pillar of the community. He's

658
00:33:12,365 --> 00:33:13,605
Speaker 1: a religious man, I.

659
00:33:13,525 --> 00:33:15,165
Speaker 2: Believe very religious.

660
00:33:15,285 --> 00:33:18,325
Speaker 1: Did he stop practicing? Was he shunned? What happened?

661
00:33:18,925 --> 00:33:25,125
Speaker 2: His preacher called me that was the first thing that happened. Wow, No,

662
00:33:25,325 --> 00:33:28,845
Speaker 2: he wasn't. There was a big service where you know,

663
00:33:28,885 --> 00:33:31,525
Speaker 2: he was just doing the Lord's work. And I should

664
00:33:31,565 --> 00:33:34,205
Speaker 2: just be grateful because I have his wonderful genetics, and

665
00:33:34,245 --> 00:33:36,565
Speaker 2: I have a duty to honor my mother and my father.

666
00:33:37,365 --> 00:33:40,925
Speaker 2: Except that only fits in that context. Because also you said,

667
00:33:40,925 --> 00:33:44,885
Speaker 2: you're not my father, and I was the devil. I

668
00:33:45,165 --> 00:33:47,605
Speaker 2: was the one that was spitting in the eye of

669
00:33:47,605 --> 00:33:52,285
Speaker 2: the proverbial monster, and his tribe circled around him to

670
00:33:52,365 --> 00:33:55,405
Speaker 2: protect him, and he was just doing the lord's work

671
00:33:55,685 --> 00:33:58,725
Speaker 2: and that was it. And it was honestly the most

672
00:33:58,765 --> 00:34:03,685
Speaker 2: disappointing thing to see my community come out and support

673
00:34:03,765 --> 00:34:06,285
Speaker 2: this man in that capacity when not only do you

674
00:34:06,445 --> 00:34:10,325
Speaker 2: have evidence of it, I am the evidence that for

675
00:34:10,405 --> 00:34:13,125
Speaker 2: people to actually tell me that I should just be

676
00:34:13,245 --> 00:34:16,725
Speaker 2: grateful to be alive, and me to continuously say over

677
00:34:16,765 --> 00:34:19,565
Speaker 2: and over again, I am not talking about being grateful

678
00:34:19,605 --> 00:34:22,525
Speaker 2: to be alive. I am talking about the deception around

679
00:34:22,525 --> 00:34:26,045
Speaker 2: my conception. And that's what happens so much is people

680
00:34:26,085 --> 00:34:28,645
Speaker 2: just immediately go to the end result, you know, they

681
00:34:28,685 --> 00:34:32,005
Speaker 2: want that silver lining and that projection of their uncomfortableness

682
00:34:32,045 --> 00:34:34,485
Speaker 2: back on to me. Most of the community, I would

683
00:34:34,485 --> 00:34:38,685
Speaker 2: say ninety percent was behind him. He did not retire,

684
00:34:39,205 --> 00:34:42,765
Speaker 2: he continued to practice very successfully. With my half brother.

685
00:34:43,685 --> 00:34:48,085
Speaker 2: I ended up filing a medical board complaint and it

686
00:34:48,125 --> 00:34:51,885
Speaker 2: took the Texas Medical Board years to even hear this complaint,

687
00:34:52,405 --> 00:34:55,645
Speaker 2: and they ultimately and of course Abrad Blank's COVID for everything.

688
00:34:55,925 --> 00:34:58,765
Speaker 2: They ultimately ended up voting to take his license. He

689
00:34:58,805 --> 00:35:02,245
Speaker 2: immediately filed a restraining order against the Medical Board and

690
00:35:02,325 --> 00:35:05,485
Speaker 2: a lawsuit, and the lawsuit stated they did not have

691
00:35:05,565 --> 00:35:08,565
Speaker 2: jurisdiction to revoke his license because of a statute of

692
00:35:08,605 --> 00:35:12,645
Speaker 2: limitation understandard level of care. The Medical Board and the

693
00:35:12,685 --> 00:35:15,685
Speaker 2: Attorney General were saying that this is not standard level

694
00:35:15,685 --> 00:35:18,085
Speaker 2: of care, this is unethical conduct and behavior which does

695
00:35:18,125 --> 00:35:21,325
Speaker 2: not carry a seven year statute of limitations, and so

696
00:35:21,565 --> 00:35:25,005
Speaker 2: the judge is not going to hear details of the case.

697
00:35:25,365 --> 00:35:27,965
Speaker 2: All they are deciding is whether the Medical Board has

698
00:35:28,045 --> 00:35:32,125
Speaker 2: jurisdiction to do this or not. It is still in

699
00:35:32,165 --> 00:35:35,565
Speaker 2: the court system. He has lost twice, but he keeps

700
00:35:35,605 --> 00:35:37,525
Speaker 2: appealing it. So it will go up to the Supreme

701
00:35:37,525 --> 00:35:40,645
Speaker 2: Court of Texas. They will send it back down to

702
00:35:40,685 --> 00:35:44,285
Speaker 2: the Thirteenth Court of Appeal, and that judge has already

703
00:35:44,325 --> 00:35:47,285
Speaker 2: told him from day one that her ruling still stands

704
00:35:47,485 --> 00:35:50,005
Speaker 2: and it is a very expensive and long journey for

705
00:35:50,085 --> 00:35:53,245
Speaker 2: him to get his license revoked. So at this point,

706
00:35:53,605 --> 00:35:57,045
Speaker 2: his only accountability as attorney fees.

707
00:35:57,325 --> 00:35:58,965
Speaker 1: So he's still practicing.

708
00:35:59,525 --> 00:36:04,325
Speaker 2: He has since retired within the last year, but has

709
00:36:04,405 --> 00:36:07,645
Speaker 2: a forced early retirement for a seventy something year old man.

710
00:36:07,845 --> 00:36:09,125
Speaker 2: His license is intact.

711
00:36:09,445 --> 00:36:13,605
Speaker 1: Well, of your other siblings and their mothers who were

712
00:36:13,645 --> 00:36:16,605
Speaker 1: all de saved, were they as pissed as you or

713
00:36:16,645 --> 00:36:17,885
Speaker 1: did they want you to let it go?

714
00:36:18,525 --> 00:36:23,405
Speaker 2: Both? So it's interesting. In my sibling pod, I feel

715
00:36:23,405 --> 00:36:26,165
Speaker 2: like we kind of have this difference between the females

716
00:36:26,165 --> 00:36:29,685
Speaker 2: and the males. Most of the males are like whatever,

717
00:36:30,005 --> 00:36:32,325
Speaker 2: Like you know, it could have been so rude, like

718
00:36:32,405 --> 00:36:34,485
Speaker 2: could have been like the janitor or someone off the street.

719
00:36:35,205 --> 00:36:38,565
Speaker 2: The women are not okay with it. But also he

720
00:36:38,805 --> 00:36:44,325
Speaker 2: was some of their doctor, and so he delivered their kids. Oh,

721
00:36:44,485 --> 00:36:49,085
Speaker 2: he did their passengers, he did their breast exams. One

722
00:36:49,125 --> 00:36:52,005
Speaker 2: of our sisters we sent a DNA test to she

723
00:36:52,165 --> 00:36:55,005
Speaker 2: had an emergency surgery that our brother did on her.

724
00:36:55,205 --> 00:36:59,085
Speaker 2: She woke up to the email confirming the DNA results.

725
00:36:59,125 --> 00:37:02,245
Speaker 2: She was our sister, and then she had to when

726
00:37:02,245 --> 00:37:04,725
Speaker 2: our brother came in for the follow up, tell him, hey,

727
00:37:04,765 --> 00:37:06,685
Speaker 2: you know what, you have to transfer my care because

728
00:37:06,725 --> 00:37:07,685
Speaker 2: you're my brother.

729
00:37:08,085 --> 00:37:09,485
Speaker 1: So one of your brothers is a door.

730
00:37:10,125 --> 00:37:12,965
Speaker 2: With my biological father. He took over the practice.

731
00:37:13,245 --> 00:37:15,365
Speaker 1: Is that one of his social kids, that's.

732
00:37:15,205 --> 00:37:18,045
Speaker 2: One of the social kids. For them, they obviously feel

733
00:37:18,125 --> 00:37:21,285
Speaker 2: very strongly about it. But then also they are living

734
00:37:21,325 --> 00:37:24,525
Speaker 2: in that community that supports him, so they are not

735
00:37:25,045 --> 00:37:29,205
Speaker 2: known because of the social implications that it has, and

736
00:37:29,245 --> 00:37:31,925
Speaker 2: to have that level of feedback all of the time

737
00:37:32,605 --> 00:37:36,085
Speaker 2: is difficult for them. But then you also have the

738
00:37:36,165 --> 00:37:40,445
Speaker 2: different dynamics that's in their nuclear family. For them, they

739
00:37:40,525 --> 00:37:44,245
Speaker 2: have the infertile recipient parent who is still alive, so

740
00:37:44,325 --> 00:37:46,965
Speaker 2: they are also protective of that relationship. So they don't

741
00:37:47,005 --> 00:37:49,125
Speaker 2: want to socially come out and say that not only

742
00:37:49,165 --> 00:37:52,845
Speaker 2: their donor deceived, but to reveal the secret of infertility

743
00:37:53,165 --> 00:37:53,965
Speaker 2: of their fathers.

744
00:37:54,005 --> 00:37:56,485
Speaker 1: So there's you know, it's a real spectrum of different

745
00:37:56,605 --> 00:38:00,885
Speaker 1: situations and different emotions and different probably points on that

746
00:38:01,005 --> 00:38:04,765
Speaker 1: journey of understanding and acceptance. I like that you just

747
00:38:04,805 --> 00:38:07,085
Speaker 1: went straight to rage such a mood.

748
00:38:07,525 --> 00:38:10,485
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yes, no, it was you a fucket.

749
00:38:11,885 --> 00:38:16,165
Speaker 1: After this shortbreak, you'll discover how Eve intersected with cereal

750
00:38:16,245 --> 00:38:20,245
Speaker 1: sperm donor Jonathan Meyer from the Netflix series The Man

751
00:38:20,285 --> 00:38:27,525
Speaker 1: with a Thousand Kids. The place that I obviously learned

752
00:38:27,565 --> 00:38:30,525
Speaker 1: about you, and even this idea of fertility fraud is

753
00:38:30,565 --> 00:38:33,605
Speaker 1: from the Netflix documentary The Man with a Thousand Children

754
00:38:34,045 --> 00:38:36,805
Speaker 1: can you briefly for people who haven't seen that, because

755
00:38:36,845 --> 00:38:40,045
Speaker 1: when things changed for another group of women who'd been

756
00:38:40,045 --> 00:38:43,205
Speaker 1: the victim of fertility fraud, they found you and you

757
00:38:43,365 --> 00:38:46,845
Speaker 1: really helped them bring this person to justice. Can you

758
00:38:46,885 --> 00:38:48,845
Speaker 1: tell the story of Jonathan Mayer?

759
00:38:49,365 --> 00:38:52,325
Speaker 2: So, I guess I should preface it with how they

760
00:38:52,405 --> 00:38:55,445
Speaker 2: found me. I have been a part of changing eleven

761
00:38:55,485 --> 00:38:58,565
Speaker 2: of the thirteen state laws in the United States that

762
00:38:58,605 --> 00:39:02,325
Speaker 2: criminalize and offers civil causes of actions for fertility fraud.

763
00:39:02,925 --> 00:39:07,845
Speaker 2: And so there was this lovely Australian couple who read

764
00:39:08,085 --> 00:39:10,765
Speaker 2: an article about me, and so they connected with me

765
00:39:10,965 --> 00:39:13,645
Speaker 2: and then got me connected with the other moms, and

766
00:39:13,765 --> 00:39:15,805
Speaker 2: that was I believe at the end of twenty nineteen,

767
00:39:15,805 --> 00:39:19,285
Speaker 2: maybe early twenty twenty, and they just wanted information of

768
00:39:19,365 --> 00:39:22,565
Speaker 2: you know, what can we do, what is the legal landscape?

769
00:39:22,645 --> 00:39:23,525
Speaker 2: Is there something we can do?

770
00:39:23,725 --> 00:39:26,085
Speaker 1: Because they had also been desaved, They.

771
00:39:25,885 --> 00:39:29,405
Speaker 2: Had also been deceived by serial sperm donor, and so

772
00:39:29,765 --> 00:39:33,845
Speaker 2: Jonathan had infiltrated one of the largest sperm banks and

773
00:39:33,965 --> 00:39:37,645
Speaker 2: eleven of the sperm banks, and he was also donating

774
00:39:37,765 --> 00:39:41,165
Speaker 2: on the private market and doing freelance, and so you know,

775
00:39:41,205 --> 00:39:44,005
Speaker 2: they were having hundreds of house siblings and they just

776
00:39:44,085 --> 00:39:45,565
Speaker 2: wanted him to stop.

777
00:39:45,925 --> 00:39:47,925
Speaker 1: And why did they want him to stop? Can you

778
00:39:47,965 --> 00:39:52,405
Speaker 1: explain the danger with unregulation and fertility fraud? What's the

779
00:39:52,485 --> 00:39:53,685
Speaker 1: danger for them?

780
00:39:53,765 --> 00:39:57,925
Speaker 2: In particular is the biodiversity concern. What happens when you

781
00:39:58,005 --> 00:40:00,725
Speaker 2: don't know that your donor conceived, you hook up with

782
00:40:00,765 --> 00:40:04,005
Speaker 2: a half sibling, and the level of accidental incest that

783
00:40:04,205 --> 00:40:06,725
Speaker 2: is the concern, especially when you're working in a demographic

784
00:40:06,845 --> 00:40:11,805
Speaker 2: like Maingley the Netherlands where it's smaller and you're more

785
00:40:11,845 --> 00:40:14,525
Speaker 2: populous with his children and they don't know.

786
00:40:14,685 --> 00:40:17,525
Speaker 1: And how many children Haddie fathered and in the Netherlands

787
00:40:17,565 --> 00:40:19,125
Speaker 1: for example, I don't remember.

788
00:40:18,965 --> 00:40:21,485
Speaker 2: Exactly what it was in the Netherlands, but.

789
00:40:21,485 --> 00:40:23,525
Speaker 1: It was like one hundred. It was like close to hundreds,

790
00:40:23,765 --> 00:40:26,845
Speaker 1: up to one thousand all over the world, maybe more right.

791
00:40:26,605 --> 00:40:29,445
Speaker 2: Because you know, I mean the math with it, which

792
00:40:29,485 --> 00:40:30,605
Speaker 2: I feel like is what a lot of the media

793
00:40:30,645 --> 00:40:33,285
Speaker 2: is like really latched onto you. We can look at

794
00:40:33,325 --> 00:40:36,485
Speaker 2: just Cryo salone where he's going to Copenhagen once a

795
00:40:36,525 --> 00:40:37,805
Speaker 2: month for four.

796
00:40:37,725 --> 00:40:42,965
Speaker 1: Days is a sperm bank in the sperm Yeah in demok.

797
00:40:42,645 --> 00:40:46,485
Speaker 2: So that's roughly two hundred donations and for him as

798
00:40:46,525 --> 00:40:51,245
Speaker 2: he is brags, you know, fifteen strawls of sperm per ejaculation,

799
00:40:52,045 --> 00:40:54,925
Speaker 2: and if every straw makes a baby, that's the potential

800
00:40:54,925 --> 00:40:58,085
Speaker 2: three thousand. Now, he has also come out and said

801
00:40:58,085 --> 00:41:03,245
Speaker 2: that he has spent fifty thousand hours donating. So like

802
00:41:03,485 --> 00:41:06,405
Speaker 2: the math, ain't math in here, because if he spent

803
00:41:06,525 --> 00:41:10,605
Speaker 2: fifty thousand hours donating, then is it potentially fifty thousand

804
00:41:10,765 --> 00:41:14,205
Speaker 2: children and not every single one's going to make a baby?

805
00:41:14,765 --> 00:41:16,925
Speaker 2: The math and math and I either way. So when

806
00:41:16,965 --> 00:41:19,565
Speaker 2: he says, you know, I only have five hundred and fifty.

807
00:41:19,365 --> 00:41:22,965
Speaker 1: Children, there are laws about this right to prevent accidental

808
00:41:23,045 --> 00:41:26,605
Speaker 1: incest and birth defects that could result from that, as

809
00:41:26,605 --> 00:41:29,565
Speaker 1: well as the moral implications of accidentally hooking up with

810
00:41:29,605 --> 00:41:33,005
Speaker 1: a half sibling. And I think in the Netherlands there's

811
00:41:33,005 --> 00:41:35,845
Speaker 1: a limit on you're only allowed twenty five and then

812
00:41:36,165 --> 00:41:37,925
Speaker 1: you can't donate anymore.

813
00:41:37,845 --> 00:41:41,845
Speaker 2: Per the banks. But that's not including freelance.

814
00:41:41,405 --> 00:41:43,285
Speaker 1: Private market, or different countries or.

815
00:41:43,285 --> 00:41:46,205
Speaker 2: Different countries, because what ultimately ends up happening is, let's

816
00:41:46,325 --> 00:41:49,325
Speaker 2: you know, he hits his limit in one country, they

817
00:41:49,365 --> 00:41:52,125
Speaker 2: export it to another country and the number goes to zero.

818
00:41:52,885 --> 00:41:56,645
Speaker 2: And so that is not something that is transparent in

819
00:41:56,685 --> 00:42:00,605
Speaker 2: this process, because that may change how you think about this. Right,

820
00:42:00,765 --> 00:42:03,045
Speaker 2: Like my assumption would be when I have a sperm

821
00:42:03,085 --> 00:42:05,645
Speaker 2: donor and you say that it's twenty five is the limit?

822
00:42:05,725 --> 00:42:08,485
Speaker 2: I would think twenty five worldwide. It's like, yeah, read

823
00:42:08,525 --> 00:42:11,285
Speaker 2: the fine print part, except there's no fine print. But

824
00:42:11,405 --> 00:42:13,845
Speaker 2: every time it is to zero. So when he does that,

825
00:42:13,965 --> 00:42:15,845
Speaker 2: and he does it as an alias, or he's doing

826
00:42:15,885 --> 00:42:18,805
Speaker 2: it on the private market, they're not counting those. It's

827
00:42:18,845 --> 00:42:21,885
Speaker 2: just deidentified sperm. It's just you know, going to clinic

828
00:42:21,925 --> 00:42:23,365
Speaker 2: to clinic to clinic to clinic.

829
00:42:23,405 --> 00:42:26,645
Speaker 1: And why Eve, why do these men do it?

830
00:42:27,205 --> 00:42:30,325
Speaker 2: Million dollar question. I'm going to put my therapist Haat

831
00:42:30,365 --> 00:42:32,885
Speaker 2: on for a second, and you know, like I do

832
00:42:33,005 --> 00:42:37,925
Speaker 2: psycho educational evaluations, and if we look at these group

833
00:42:37,965 --> 00:42:41,645
Speaker 2: of men as a whole, I definitely think that, you know,

834
00:42:41,645 --> 00:42:46,005
Speaker 2: we could consider a personality disorder on the DSM somewhere

835
00:42:46,005 --> 00:42:50,885
Speaker 2: in access to you. Isn't narcissism. This desire is an addiction.

836
00:42:51,725 --> 00:42:54,205
Speaker 2: You know, the way that they talk about their successes

837
00:42:54,525 --> 00:42:58,165
Speaker 2: and it's a number and it's a competition, and the

838
00:42:58,205 --> 00:43:00,685
Speaker 2: way that they just work in general, like making the

839
00:43:00,725 --> 00:43:04,925
Speaker 2: fake profiles look really bad. So their real profiles with

840
00:43:04,965 --> 00:43:08,325
Speaker 2: an alias look really really good. Like it's very manipulative.

841
00:43:08,445 --> 00:43:11,565
Speaker 1: Wait, explain. What the documentary discovered is that there's a

842
00:43:11,565 --> 00:43:13,805
Speaker 1: group of Jonathan was part of these group of men

843
00:43:14,085 --> 00:43:16,885
Speaker 1: who were almost gamified. Oh they were. They were gamifying

844
00:43:16,965 --> 00:43:20,965
Speaker 1: this idea of who can make the most babies in

845
00:43:21,005 --> 00:43:24,045
Speaker 1: the world. Yes, and so they would compete with each other.

846
00:43:24,325 --> 00:43:26,885
Speaker 1: They would keep score and what do you mean about

847
00:43:26,885 --> 00:43:28,445
Speaker 1: they would make fake profiles.

848
00:43:28,805 --> 00:43:32,005
Speaker 2: So there's lots of different platforms when we're talking about

849
00:43:32,445 --> 00:43:35,845
Speaker 2: the private market or freelance, known donors, you know, there's

850
00:43:35,885 --> 00:43:38,565
Speaker 2: lots of different names for it. These men would make

851
00:43:38,645 --> 00:43:41,645
Speaker 2: a Facebook group and they were the admin and the moderators.

852
00:43:42,085 --> 00:43:45,205
Speaker 2: They'll let recipients in, but they won't let competition in,

853
00:43:45,885 --> 00:43:49,405
Speaker 2: and so the other ones like make a baby now

854
00:43:49,765 --> 00:43:52,205
Speaker 2: or you know, every country has kind of like a

855
00:43:52,205 --> 00:43:55,965
Speaker 2: different platform. Think of it as like Craigslist, backpage ads,

856
00:43:56,045 --> 00:43:57,805
Speaker 2: kind of like that type of thing, and it's like

857
00:43:57,845 --> 00:44:01,685
Speaker 2: it's for this, and so they would make profiles that

858
00:44:01,725 --> 00:44:04,805
Speaker 2: would be all aliases, but one profile would be like,

859
00:44:04,845 --> 00:44:06,805
Speaker 2: you know, their best that picture of Jonathan, you know,

860
00:44:06,965 --> 00:44:07,805
Speaker 2: looking cute as.

861
00:44:07,685 --> 00:44:09,205
Speaker 1: A baby or as an adult.

862
00:44:09,525 --> 00:44:11,765
Speaker 2: Yeah, that one, but then they would make fake ones

863
00:44:11,765 --> 00:44:14,885
Speaker 2: that are really really bad, like you know, misspelled and

864
00:44:15,005 --> 00:44:17,045
Speaker 2: all the characteristics, so that they knew that they weren't

865
00:44:17,045 --> 00:44:19,085
Speaker 2: looking for it. Because when you are going through these

866
00:44:19,165 --> 00:44:21,925
Speaker 2: profiles and you go through twenty really bad ones and

867
00:44:21,965 --> 00:44:23,245
Speaker 2: then you see Jonathan, you're like.

868
00:44:23,245 --> 00:44:25,925
Speaker 1: Oh, oh my gosh, all right, and that's why so

869
00:44:26,045 --> 00:44:27,525
Speaker 1: many women would choose him.

870
00:44:28,285 --> 00:44:31,125
Speaker 2: But all of them did this, and so you know,

871
00:44:31,125 --> 00:44:34,125
Speaker 2: I think of like Simon Watson, Joe Donor, these aren't

872
00:44:34,125 --> 00:44:38,205
Speaker 2: even these guys real names, except well Jonathan obviously. Then

873
00:44:38,245 --> 00:44:41,005
Speaker 2: they compete, then they have their moderators of the group,

874
00:44:41,325 --> 00:44:44,085
Speaker 2: and then it's just successes. They post pregnancy tests and

875
00:44:44,125 --> 00:44:46,805
Speaker 2: they brag about someone that they got pregnant, and then

876
00:44:46,805 --> 00:44:49,685
Speaker 2: they create their own little mom group. But they don't

877
00:44:49,685 --> 00:44:52,605
Speaker 2: have any of the responsibilities of being, you know, a

878
00:44:52,645 --> 00:44:56,805
Speaker 2: father figure. Very few of them had donor contracts, and

879
00:44:56,885 --> 00:45:00,285
Speaker 2: if anybody would speak out of turn, all they do

880
00:45:00,365 --> 00:45:02,925
Speaker 2: is threaten and say, well, I'm just going to sue

881
00:45:02,965 --> 00:45:05,565
Speaker 2: you for custody and then you use your kid happy time.

882
00:45:06,285 --> 00:45:09,485
Speaker 2: So women, you know, are like, well, okay, I I

883
00:45:09,525 --> 00:45:12,885
Speaker 2: definitely don't want you to now, you know, be co

884
00:45:13,045 --> 00:45:16,805
Speaker 2: parenting with me, and so it's it's really manipulative in

885
00:45:16,805 --> 00:45:18,285
Speaker 2: that sense, but it's dangerous.

886
00:45:18,525 --> 00:45:19,645
Speaker 1: How do you stop him?

887
00:45:19,925 --> 00:45:23,245
Speaker 2: It was hard in the Netherlands. The moms were very

888
00:45:23,325 --> 00:45:27,045
Speaker 2: much feeling was what I felt, the duty to inform,

889
00:45:27,525 --> 00:45:34,085
Speaker 2: because how can you possibly consent or assent and if

890
00:45:34,085 --> 00:45:37,245
Speaker 2: there's information that would change the way in which you

891
00:45:37,405 --> 00:45:40,245
Speaker 2: made an informed decision, you need to know about it.

892
00:45:40,325 --> 00:45:43,245
Speaker 2: So this duty to warn and inform, how can you

893
00:45:43,325 --> 00:45:46,645
Speaker 2: do that when in the Netherlands you can't name him?

894
00:45:47,205 --> 00:45:49,845
Speaker 2: It was just Dutch donor, Dutch done or Dutch donor.

895
00:45:49,965 --> 00:45:51,485
Speaker 1: Why couldn't he be named.

896
00:45:51,525 --> 00:45:55,805
Speaker 2: Because that's part of some policy, like you can't out

897
00:45:55,845 --> 00:45:57,645
Speaker 2: them in the media for some reason.

898
00:45:57,965 --> 00:46:00,485
Speaker 1: So how can anyone avoid using him again if they

899
00:46:00,485 --> 00:46:01,325
Speaker 1: don't know his name?

900
00:46:02,445 --> 00:46:05,885
Speaker 2: And wow, you cannot make an informed decision because no

901
00:46:05,925 --> 00:46:08,845
Speaker 2: one's going to think, oh, let me google Dutch donor? Well,

902
00:46:08,845 --> 00:46:10,205
Speaker 2: which Dutch donor?

903
00:46:10,365 --> 00:46:12,525
Speaker 1: And also, how do you make a lure in one

904
00:46:12,565 --> 00:46:15,245
Speaker 1: country that applies to every country.

905
00:46:15,085 --> 00:46:18,845
Speaker 2: And the answer is you don't. So for us, the

906
00:46:18,965 --> 00:46:21,885
Speaker 2: very first thing was, and this was my experience with everything,

907
00:46:21,965 --> 00:46:24,245
Speaker 2: what do you do when you are existing in a

908
00:46:24,285 --> 00:46:28,885
Speaker 2: legal landscape that has literally nothing. You don't have sperm

909
00:46:28,925 --> 00:46:32,085
Speaker 2: banks that are required to talk to each other. Every

910
00:46:32,205 --> 00:46:35,125
Speaker 2: country is so different. You have some countries that really

911
00:46:35,125 --> 00:46:38,765
Speaker 2: have this buttoned up, but because of their stricter laws,

912
00:46:38,765 --> 00:46:41,285
Speaker 2: it actually pushes people to go underground to these known

913
00:46:41,325 --> 00:46:46,085
Speaker 2: donors and makes them more susceptible to the predatory behavior

914
00:46:46,125 --> 00:46:49,525
Speaker 2: of these serial donors just out of necessity. Right then

915
00:46:49,525 --> 00:46:51,845
Speaker 2: you have the wild wild West like us in America,

916
00:46:51,965 --> 00:46:54,685
Speaker 2: where it's like what laws. My first thing was we

917
00:46:54,765 --> 00:46:56,125
Speaker 2: got to start really small, and the first thing that

918
00:46:56,165 --> 00:46:58,845
Speaker 2: we can do to meet the first goal is to

919
00:46:59,365 --> 00:47:02,645
Speaker 2: get his name out there. That was, let's talk to

920
00:47:02,645 --> 00:47:04,845
Speaker 2: the New York Times and you guys come forward, because

921
00:47:04,885 --> 00:47:07,925
Speaker 2: in America you can name him. And that's what we did.

922
00:47:08,005 --> 00:47:09,885
Speaker 2: As soon as he was named, than he was linked

923
00:47:09,885 --> 00:47:13,165
Speaker 2: with all of you know, Dutch donor and it was

924
00:47:13,205 --> 00:47:18,245
Speaker 2: all put together and then notifying Cryos International and hoping

925
00:47:18,285 --> 00:47:20,605
Speaker 2: that they could somehow remove all of his straws that

926
00:47:20,605 --> 00:47:22,685
Speaker 2: they had sent all over the world. So that was

927
00:47:22,725 --> 00:47:26,125
Speaker 2: the first part. The second part was the moms had

928
00:47:26,125 --> 00:47:29,485
Speaker 2: been working with Donor Kind in the Netherlands since like

929
00:47:29,485 --> 00:47:33,605
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, which is an organization there, and the moms

930
00:47:33,685 --> 00:47:35,365
Speaker 2: ended up coming up with this group called Moms on

931
00:47:35,365 --> 00:47:37,085
Speaker 2: a Mission, and that was kind of like you know,

932
00:47:37,405 --> 00:47:40,805
Speaker 2: our mission and you know, having all of these pieces

933
00:47:40,845 --> 00:47:43,925
Speaker 2: fit together to figure out how to stop him. So

934
00:47:44,285 --> 00:47:49,125
Speaker 2: the Brave Moms took him to court and he represented himself.

935
00:47:49,565 --> 00:47:51,685
Speaker 2: The argument was like listen, he's it's kind of like

936
00:47:51,685 --> 00:47:53,925
Speaker 2: a danger to society at this point, like he has

937
00:47:54,165 --> 00:47:56,165
Speaker 2: this amount of kids that we know of. Our kids

938
00:47:56,205 --> 00:47:58,685
Speaker 2: go to school together, they live, right, we're neighbors all

939
00:47:58,685 --> 00:48:01,125
Speaker 2: the time. Like this is wild. So he comes in

940
00:48:01,285 --> 00:48:03,005
Speaker 2: and like you seeing the documentary with the story, like

941
00:48:03,285 --> 00:48:06,205
Speaker 2: it's a oh judge, you don't understand. It's a new concepts,

942
00:48:06,285 --> 00:48:08,685
Speaker 2: like they just need a special symbol to be branded

943
00:48:09,445 --> 00:48:11,965
Speaker 2: stood their name, and like my children are so smart,

944
00:48:12,045 --> 00:48:14,205
Speaker 2: like they won't hook up with each other, blah blah.

945
00:48:14,205 --> 00:48:16,445
Speaker 2: But me, he just ran his mouth like an idiot.

946
00:48:16,565 --> 00:48:18,845
Speaker 1: That was chilling when he said they should be marked

947
00:48:18,845 --> 00:48:19,965
Speaker 1: on social media.

948
00:48:20,125 --> 00:48:24,685
Speaker 2: Yep, that it would be like this pride like verification. Yeah, exactly,

949
00:48:24,725 --> 00:48:25,645
Speaker 2: it's a new concept.

950
00:48:26,245 --> 00:48:29,405
Speaker 1: Oh my god. So he's like a cult leader, but

951
00:48:29,485 --> 00:48:31,845
Speaker 1: it's also eugenics. It's terrifying.

952
00:48:32,325 --> 00:48:34,925
Speaker 2: It is terrifying. And then he has years of these

953
00:48:34,925 --> 00:48:38,005
Speaker 2: YouTube videos of like him basically seems like he's like

954
00:48:38,165 --> 00:48:40,245
Speaker 2: parenting his children.

955
00:48:39,885 --> 00:48:43,685
Speaker 1: Talking about his philosophies on everything from politics to the environment,

956
00:48:43,805 --> 00:48:48,325
Speaker 1: to being anti woke, to listening to your ancestors and

957
00:48:48,365 --> 00:48:51,045
Speaker 1: being grateful to your biological parents.

958
00:48:51,565 --> 00:48:56,925
Speaker 2: Brainwashing cool like right, the judge was he was selling bullshit,

959
00:48:57,005 --> 00:48:59,925
Speaker 2: but she wasn't buying, and so she was like, you know,

960
00:49:00,125 --> 00:49:02,405
Speaker 2: you do this again and you're going to get fined

961
00:49:02,525 --> 00:49:03,765
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand euro.

962
00:49:03,965 --> 00:49:05,485
Speaker 1: It's what it was per donation.

963
00:49:06,045 --> 00:49:09,045
Speaker 2: Yes, you know. My favorite part was when you know

964
00:49:09,125 --> 00:49:11,405
Speaker 2: his like what, I'm a good father, Like I show

965
00:49:11,445 --> 00:49:13,845
Speaker 2: up at birthdays, I show up at this and she's like,

966
00:49:14,485 --> 00:49:17,925
Speaker 2: it's not possible for you to attend every graduation and

967
00:49:17,965 --> 00:49:20,845
Speaker 2: every birthday and every life Like when you have this many.

968
00:49:20,725 --> 00:49:23,205
Speaker 1: Children, you have hundreds and hundreds of thousands and thousands

969
00:49:23,205 --> 00:49:23,725
Speaker 1: of children.

970
00:49:23,845 --> 00:49:26,045
Speaker 2: I mean, the reality is like he's only gonna admit

971
00:49:26,125 --> 00:49:28,445
Speaker 2: to what we know, right, And it's just like my

972
00:49:28,525 --> 00:49:32,685
Speaker 2: biological father, he only admitted to what I said. And

973
00:49:32,805 --> 00:49:35,205
Speaker 2: so it's like every time anyone comes up, it's going

974
00:49:35,285 --> 00:49:37,605
Speaker 2: to keep going and keep climbing and keep climbing, keep climbing,

975
00:49:37,605 --> 00:49:40,165
Speaker 2: and we saw this with the Netflix documentary Our Father,

976
00:49:40,725 --> 00:49:43,965
Speaker 2: where the number of those half siblings from Donald Climb

977
00:49:44,125 --> 00:49:48,125
Speaker 2: kept climbing climbing after the duty to inform and warn

978
00:49:48,645 --> 00:49:52,125
Speaker 2: had been out there and people recognize, Oh my god,

979
00:49:52,165 --> 00:49:53,805
Speaker 2: I think that I may have been victimized to you.

980
00:49:54,005 --> 00:49:55,845
Speaker 2: And that is exactly what we will be seeing.

981
00:49:56,005 --> 00:49:59,925
Speaker 1: What's Jonathan doing now? What's happened since the documentary came out?

982
00:49:59,965 --> 00:50:01,645
Speaker 1: Do you know is he still trying to donate? I

983
00:50:01,685 --> 00:50:03,885
Speaker 1: kind of imagine he'd just go, oh okay, I'll stop.

984
00:50:04,845 --> 00:50:08,845
Speaker 2: Who knows well, he has been giving me some shout

985
00:50:08,845 --> 00:50:12,165
Speaker 2: outs on his YouTube channel. He thinks I am the mastermind,

986
00:50:12,765 --> 00:50:16,285
Speaker 2: so you know, I'll put on my best Taylor Swift,

987
00:50:16,085 --> 00:50:19,925
Speaker 2: I'll take that. Yeah, that crown. You know, he's threatening

988
00:50:19,965 --> 00:50:23,925
Speaker 2: a lawsuit for slander and just he's spiraling, is what.

989
00:50:24,005 --> 00:50:27,285
Speaker 2: I think. He had an opportunity to participate and to

990
00:50:27,885 --> 00:50:30,005
Speaker 2: you know, give his side of the story, but he didn't.

991
00:50:30,765 --> 00:50:33,325
Speaker 2: So I think he's just sitting in the woods making

992
00:50:33,365 --> 00:50:35,965
Speaker 2: YouTube videos right now. That's all from what I can see.

993
00:50:36,205 --> 00:50:37,365
Speaker 1: Kamer is my boyfriend.

994
00:50:37,725 --> 00:50:39,165
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, that's right.

995
00:50:39,565 --> 00:50:42,925
Speaker 1: Eve. You are a warrior for women. I wanted to

996
00:50:42,965 --> 00:50:45,845
Speaker 1: ask you one more question when I was watching you

997
00:50:46,165 --> 00:50:50,965
Speaker 1: and the other donor deceived people fighting going to Capitol Hill,

998
00:50:51,045 --> 00:50:54,325
Speaker 1: trying to get national legislation, trying to get people to

999
00:50:54,445 --> 00:50:59,485
Speaker 1: understand what this medical rape is. Essentially women being impregnated

1000
00:50:59,725 --> 00:51:03,805
Speaker 1: with sperm without their consent or being defrauded. You're essentially

1001
00:51:04,125 --> 00:51:07,645
Speaker 1: arguing against your own existence, and I imagine a lot

1002
00:51:07,685 --> 00:51:09,565
Speaker 1: of people use that as a way to try and

1003
00:51:09,565 --> 00:51:12,285
Speaker 1: shut you up, like the preacher did and those people

1004
00:51:12,285 --> 00:51:14,765
Speaker 1: in your community. How do you feel about that? How

1005
00:51:14,805 --> 00:51:15,685
Speaker 1: do you reconcile that?

1006
00:51:16,045 --> 00:51:20,205
Speaker 2: Well? Usually what I say is I am not talking

1007
00:51:20,245 --> 00:51:23,965
Speaker 2: about being grateful to be alive or my existence in general.

1008
00:51:23,805 --> 00:51:25,765
Speaker 1: Life, Oh, wishing you'd never been born.

1009
00:51:25,925 --> 00:51:28,605
Speaker 2: Which I would never be born. I'm not debating the

1010
00:51:28,645 --> 00:51:31,925
Speaker 2: facts of that. I am talking about the deception around conception,

1011
00:51:32,485 --> 00:51:36,525
Speaker 2: the lack of enforcing informed consent, and how in this

1012
00:51:36,605 --> 00:51:43,285
Speaker 2: particular instance, morality does not equate legality, And so separating

1013
00:51:43,325 --> 00:51:46,445
Speaker 2: those two things I think are very important because it

1014
00:51:46,565 --> 00:51:49,845
Speaker 2: is very easy to conflate those two things. What is

1015
00:51:49,885 --> 00:51:54,125
Speaker 2: it like, the end to the means means to the end, right, Yeah,

1016
00:51:54,165 --> 00:51:56,285
Speaker 2: it's hard to not be able to look at that

1017
00:51:56,365 --> 00:51:59,725
Speaker 2: and say, but you're here and I am so grateful

1018
00:51:59,725 --> 00:52:02,205
Speaker 2: to be alive, but I can have opposite feelings about

1019
00:52:02,205 --> 00:52:04,485
Speaker 2: this and hold space for that. I'm grateful to be alive,

1020
00:52:04,645 --> 00:52:07,125
Speaker 2: but I am very upset about the deception around my conception.

1021
00:52:07,885 --> 00:52:10,965
Speaker 2: And if I truly believe that we need to leave

1022
00:52:11,045 --> 00:52:14,165
Speaker 2: this world better than we found it, I need to

1023
00:52:14,245 --> 00:52:16,085
Speaker 2: find the purpose in my pain, and I need to

1024
00:52:16,125 --> 00:52:18,365
Speaker 2: do it not only for the rest of the people

1025
00:52:18,365 --> 00:52:21,045
Speaker 2: and the women who have been deceived, but also, you know,

1026
00:52:21,045 --> 00:52:22,845
Speaker 2: at a very basic level, just to be an example

1027
00:52:22,925 --> 00:52:26,285
Speaker 2: from my girls, that it's not always the tragedy that

1028
00:52:26,445 --> 00:52:29,125
Speaker 2: happens to you, it's what you do with it, and

1029
00:52:29,245 --> 00:52:30,485
Speaker 2: that is empowerment.

1030
00:52:30,885 --> 00:52:35,045
Speaker 1: What a note to end on. You're amazing. It is

1031
00:52:35,125 --> 00:52:38,165
Speaker 1: amazing to me that Eve might have got her whole

1032
00:52:38,165 --> 00:52:41,485
Speaker 1: life not knowing the truth about her conception if she

1033
00:52:41,525 --> 00:52:45,045
Speaker 1: hadn't done that thing that teenagers do, which is snoop.

1034
00:52:45,525 --> 00:52:48,205
Speaker 1: I guess she probably would have found out when she

1035
00:52:48,285 --> 00:52:51,365
Speaker 1: did some of those DNA tests after her son got sick.

1036
00:52:52,365 --> 00:52:55,005
Speaker 1: But the fact that that snooping led her to Steve,

1037
00:52:55,445 --> 00:52:58,005
Speaker 1: who for years she believed was her birth father, only

1038
00:52:58,045 --> 00:53:01,005
Speaker 1: to have another grenade launched into her life and her

1039
00:53:01,045 --> 00:53:04,085
Speaker 1: heart when her son became ill and she found out

1040
00:53:04,085 --> 00:53:06,965
Speaker 1: that he actually wasn't her father. It reminded me of

1041
00:53:07,005 --> 00:53:09,925
Speaker 1: that story about Tony Abbott. It came out that an

1042
00:53:09,965 --> 00:53:13,205
Speaker 1: old girlfriend of his had had a son and had

1043
00:53:13,245 --> 00:53:16,365
Speaker 1: adopted him out and had never told Tony Abbott that

1044
00:53:16,405 --> 00:53:19,205
Speaker 1: she was pregnant. And then this guy who turned out

1045
00:53:19,205 --> 00:53:22,925
Speaker 1: to be a cameraman at Parliament House who'd filmed Tony

1046
00:53:22,965 --> 00:53:27,165
Speaker 1: Abbot many times in his political career, turned out to

1047
00:53:27,205 --> 00:53:30,525
Speaker 1: be this child, and he tracked down his biological mother,

1048
00:53:30,965 --> 00:53:34,725
Speaker 1: who explained who his biological father was, and it was

1049
00:53:34,765 --> 00:53:36,965
Speaker 1: in the press at the time. You know, Tony Abbot

1050
00:53:37,005 --> 00:53:39,965
Speaker 1: handled it really well, and it was quite a beautiful

1051
00:53:40,005 --> 00:53:42,485
Speaker 1: story and everyone loved, you know, the coincidence of the

1052
00:53:42,525 --> 00:53:44,605
Speaker 1: fact that they'd been working in the same workplace without

1053
00:53:44,645 --> 00:53:47,925
Speaker 1: even realizing they were father and son. And then a

1054
00:53:47,925 --> 00:53:51,525
Speaker 1: little while later it turned out that actually Tony Abbot

1055
00:53:51,525 --> 00:53:54,325
Speaker 1: wasn't the father. There was a different biological father, and

1056
00:53:54,365 --> 00:53:57,525
Speaker 1: the mother had actually just got it wrong. I really

1057
00:53:57,565 --> 00:54:01,405
Speaker 1: remember feeling how poignant that situation was, because they'd done

1058
00:54:01,485 --> 00:54:04,205
Speaker 1: interviews and spoken about how they were sort of forging

1059
00:54:04,245 --> 00:54:07,525
Speaker 1: this relationship, and Tony Abbott had three daughters and then

1060
00:54:07,565 --> 00:54:10,485
Speaker 1: he had this son, and it was just a really interesting,

1061
00:54:10,565 --> 00:54:12,805
Speaker 1: quite beautiful story at a time when Tony Abbott was

1062
00:54:12,885 --> 00:54:16,485
Speaker 1: not a very popular guy. And then I remember wondering,

1063
00:54:16,805 --> 00:54:20,565
Speaker 1: how do you unpack that? How do you even find

1064
00:54:20,605 --> 00:54:23,285
Speaker 1: a place to file that in your heart when you

1065
00:54:23,365 --> 00:54:27,325
Speaker 1: thought someone was maybe your biological parent and then they weren't.

1066
00:54:28,085 --> 00:54:31,285
Speaker 1: I was so relieved that Eve has stayed friends with Steve,

1067
00:54:32,125 --> 00:54:34,245
Speaker 1: but then what do you do about the fact that

1068
00:54:34,285 --> 00:54:38,645
Speaker 1: your actual biological father is an asshole. I'll be honest,

1069
00:54:38,685 --> 00:54:41,645
Speaker 1: I've never really thought about fertility fraud before the Netflix series,

1070
00:54:42,085 --> 00:54:45,325
Speaker 1: but now I cannot look away. I'm thinking about it

1071
00:54:45,365 --> 00:54:47,445
Speaker 1: a lot, and it turns out there are a lot

1072
00:54:47,445 --> 00:54:51,445
Speaker 1: of men out there who were, I don't know, narcissistic psychopaths,

1073
00:54:52,285 --> 00:54:54,485
Speaker 1: men who are doing this to women and families every day,

1074
00:54:54,525 --> 00:54:56,325
Speaker 1: and it's really struck a nerve. I think that's why

1075
00:54:56,365 --> 00:55:00,325
Speaker 1: this show on Netflix became number one all over the world,

1076
00:55:00,405 --> 00:55:04,685
Speaker 1: because there's this idea about bodily autonomy, the fact that

1077
00:55:04,765 --> 00:55:08,125
Speaker 1: someone can either give you their sperm under false pretenses

1078
00:55:08,325 --> 00:55:11,365
Speaker 1: or put their sperm in your body without you consenting

1079
00:55:11,405 --> 00:55:13,725
Speaker 1: to it, and it's not even a crime in many

1080
00:55:13,765 --> 00:55:18,485
Speaker 1: states in America. It's just wild. You know. MoMA MIA's

1081
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Speaker 1: entire core purpose as a business and as a media

1082
00:55:21,605 --> 00:55:23,845
Speaker 1: company is to make the world a better place for

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00:55:23,885 --> 00:55:26,845
Speaker 1: women and girls, and we're going to look into fertility

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00:55:26,845 --> 00:55:29,765
Speaker 1: fraud some more so. If you have a story about

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00:55:29,765 --> 00:55:34,365
Speaker 1: fertility fraud or conception deception, please reach out and let

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00:55:34,445 --> 00:55:36,085
Speaker 1: us know. We'll put a link in the show notes

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00:55:36,125 --> 00:55:38,045
Speaker 1: to an email address that you can reach out, either

1088
00:55:38,085 --> 00:55:41,005
Speaker 1: anonymously if you want to tell us your story under

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00:55:41,045 --> 00:55:43,365
Speaker 1: a pseudonym, or under your own name. We want to

1090
00:55:43,405 --> 00:55:47,445
Speaker 1: continue shining a light and exploring this crime. We'll also

1091
00:55:47,445 --> 00:55:49,285
Speaker 1: put a link to Eve's website where you can learn

1092
00:55:49,325 --> 00:55:51,925
Speaker 1: more about her and all the amazing work she does.

1093
00:55:52,285 --> 00:55:54,885
Speaker 1: I love her. I know she's a therapist. I think

1094
00:55:54,925 --> 00:55:57,285
Speaker 1: I want her to be my therapist. Is that unethical?

1095
00:55:58,045 --> 00:56:01,085
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit obsessed with her. Thank you for listening.

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Speaker 1: No Filter's executive producer is niam A Brown, another woman

1097
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Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with, and our audio producer is Leah Porges,

1098
00:56:08,765 --> 00:56:12,405
Speaker 1: who you know I'm obsessed with. I may have Friedman.

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Speaker 1: Be safe out their friends and watch out for each other. Okay,