WEBVTT - Sam & Nia: The Couple Who Survived The Ashley Madison Cheating Scandal 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:15.005 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges 0:00:15.045 --> 0:00:17.685 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.765 --> 0:00:29.845 is recorded on from Mamma. I'm Meya Friedman. You're listening 0:00:29.845 --> 0:00:33.325 to the No Filter podcast and this story starts with 0:00:33.445 --> 0:00:37.565 a wei, which is not something I've ever said about 0:00:37.565 --> 0:00:40.605 an episode of No Filter before, but hey, I like 0:00:40.645 --> 0:00:45.045 to keep things interesting around here. The name Ashley Madison 0:00:45.405 --> 0:00:49.205 will probably be familiar to you, either back from two 0:00:49.245 --> 0:00:52.485 thousand and two when the dating site for people who 0:00:52.485 --> 0:00:56.445 wanted to have an Affair launched or the recent Netflix 0:00:56.485 --> 0:01:00.765 documentary about it. Ashley Madison was a business and a 0:01:00.765 --> 0:01:03.765 website that was set up specifically for married people who 0:01:03.845 --> 0:01:07.085 wanted to have an affair with other married people. It 0:01:07.165 --> 0:01:11.205 kind of operated on this idea of utually assured destruction. 0:01:11.885 --> 0:01:15.045 It was pretty scandalous at the time. Their tagline was 0:01:15.125 --> 0:01:19.085 life is Short, Have an Affair, and the CEO, a 0:01:19.125 --> 0:01:23.445 bloke called Noel Biederman, capitalized on all that controversy. He 0:01:23.645 --> 0:01:26.085 was this kind of over the top showman who would 0:01:26.085 --> 0:01:28.525 go on TV and do all these interviews, and he'd 0:01:28.525 --> 0:01:31.165 often drag his wife along as well, basically making the 0:01:31.325 --> 0:01:34.605 argument that cheaters are going to cheat, why not monetize it, 0:01:35.085 --> 0:01:39.565 and monetize it he did, Ashley Madison made tens of 0:01:39.605 --> 0:01:43.445 millions of dollars. That was until twenty fifteen, when an 0:01:43.445 --> 0:01:47.645 anonymous group who called itself the Impact Team, announced that 0:01:47.685 --> 0:01:51.485 it had hacked the Ashley Madison website. After some frantic 0:01:51.525 --> 0:01:55.405 attempts by NOL and the Ashley Madison management to stop 0:01:55.445 --> 0:01:58.565 the Impact Team, they made good on their promise and 0:01:58.605 --> 0:02:01.605 release the data. Not only did this mean that the 0:02:01.725 --> 0:02:04.885 names of all the would be cheaters were released, but 0:02:05.045 --> 0:02:09.165 also their home addresses, their bank details, and even things 0:02:09.205 --> 0:02:12.405 like their sexual preferences. All of this stuff had to 0:02:12.445 --> 0:02:15.285 be entered when you joined the website, and the leak 0:02:15.325 --> 0:02:18.165 also exposed the fact that the site was mostly full 0:02:18.205 --> 0:02:21.765 of men and that the women, well, they were bots, 0:02:22.125 --> 0:02:25.405 as in they were not real. I remember when this happened. 0:02:25.725 --> 0:02:29.445 It was massive news and journalists were scouring the list 0:02:29.845 --> 0:02:34.045 for anything that was explosive, particularly people who were in 0:02:34.085 --> 0:02:36.245 the public eye. Men that were in the public eye. 0:02:36.645 --> 0:02:40.565 People's lives were ruined, People lost their jobs, their reputations 0:02:40.565 --> 0:02:43.725 were destroyed, and some people even took their own lives 0:02:43.925 --> 0:02:47.085 because of the consequences and the humiliation. And caught up 0:02:47.125 --> 0:02:51.485 in this firestorm was one couple called Sam and Nia Raider. 0:02:51.605 --> 0:02:54.365 They were childhood sweethearts and you may have seen them 0:02:54.365 --> 0:02:58.045 if you've watched the Netflix documentary I Love Being a Dad. 0:02:58.085 --> 0:03:02.525 I loved my wife. It was a beautiful marriage, but 0:03:02.605 --> 0:03:06.285 it was also just like monotonous. I remember seeing an 0:03:06.325 --> 0:03:11.685 advertisement for sure having a I was like, that sounds intriguing. 0:03:12.645 --> 0:03:16.365 Before the Ashley Madison scandal broke, Sam and Nia were 0:03:16.365 --> 0:03:20.805 pretty successful family vloggers, kind of like influencers before that 0:03:20.925 --> 0:03:23.965 was a thing, and they made viral videos about their 0:03:24.005 --> 0:03:28.445 lives together with their young family. One video that shows 0:03:28.485 --> 0:03:31.805 a very happy Sam and Nia driving with their daughter 0:03:31.845 --> 0:03:33.765 in the back seat while their lip synced to a 0:03:33.765 --> 0:03:36.325 Frozen song really put them on the map when it 0:03:36.365 --> 0:03:38.685 went viral, and it didn't caught the attention of Disney. 0:03:39.965 --> 0:03:55.045 My one For Sam. It turns out that love was 0:03:55.245 --> 0:03:58.165 in fact an open door, but maybe not in the 0:03:58.165 --> 0:04:01.965 way Nia thought. The next video that they made that 0:04:02.045 --> 0:04:05.205 went viral, this is where we comes in. So Sam 0:04:05.245 --> 0:04:09.405 wanted to do something really big and splashy and to 0:04:09.405 --> 0:04:12.365 get a lot of attention on YouTube, and Nia had 0:04:12.365 --> 0:04:14.765 told him that her period was late. So what he 0:04:14.805 --> 0:04:17.165 did he filmed all this, was to go into the 0:04:17.205 --> 0:04:20.205 bathroom after she'd been to the toilet and get a 0:04:20.205 --> 0:04:23.565 pregnancy test and extract some of her WII from the toilet, 0:04:23.885 --> 0:04:27.325 put it on the pregnancy test, and tell her live 0:04:27.565 --> 0:04:29.725 while he was filming and get her reaction. 0:04:30.045 --> 0:04:33.565 So here I am, and I'm so excited. I have 0:04:33.885 --> 0:04:37.045 a specimen. I have a specimen. I knew it would 0:04:37.045 --> 0:04:38.645 be there. I don't know if it'll throw it off 0:04:38.685 --> 0:04:42.285 because it's all diluted. But I also brought almost pregnancy test, 0:04:42.685 --> 0:04:45.685 and this time around, I'm going to be doing the announcement. 0:04:46.005 --> 0:04:48.765 At least I hope. I hoped so bad she's pregnant. 0:04:49.125 --> 0:04:51.805 The angle on it was that he was going to 0:04:51.925 --> 0:04:54.925 know that she was pregnant before she knew that she 0:04:55.005 --> 0:04:57.765 was pregnant. And yes, it went viral and they did 0:04:57.805 --> 0:05:00.485 lots of interviews about it. I told you the story 0:05:00.605 --> 0:05:04.525 was unusual. So that's the way. Sam and Nia share 0:05:04.605 --> 0:05:07.525 a lot about their experience in the documentary and even 0:05:07.565 --> 0:05:10.565 more in their book called Living Truth. But in the 0:05:10.605 --> 0:05:13.165 course of the conversation I'm about to share with you, 0:05:13.205 --> 0:05:16.365 they open up about a lot of very personal details 0:05:16.485 --> 0:05:19.565 that they haven't shared before, even in the Netflix documentary. 0:05:20.165 --> 0:05:22.285 I know that the biggest question you'll have, the biggest 0:05:22.365 --> 0:05:25.325 question most people have when they hear Sam and Nia's story, 0:05:26.005 --> 0:05:28.325 is how do you get past cheating? How do you 0:05:28.365 --> 0:05:33.165 get past betrayal and public humiliation? How do you get 0:05:33.205 --> 0:05:35.405 past the person who's meant to love you more than 0:05:35.445 --> 0:05:40.525 anyone betraying you like that? Sam and Nia are disarmingly honest, 0:05:40.965 --> 0:05:43.605 and as you'll hear, their story is actually a lot 0:05:43.645 --> 0:05:47.965 more than just the Ashley Madison scandal. It's about love 0:05:48.285 --> 0:05:52.085 and infidelity and betrayal and forgiveness and how all of 0:05:52.125 --> 0:05:56.565 those things can take many forms. Here's my conversation with 0:05:56.725 --> 0:06:02.365 Sam and Nia. The first time I became aware of 0:06:02.405 --> 0:06:05.565 you guys, I was running a women's website part of 0:06:05.605 --> 0:06:08.965 our company still today, and it was the we video. 0:06:09.365 --> 0:06:11.605 I'm going to say it, Sam, how did the idea 0:06:11.685 --> 0:06:15.565 of the pregnancy test come about? It was unlike anything 0:06:15.605 --> 0:06:18.645 anyone had ever seen. What gave you that idea? How 0:06:18.725 --> 0:06:21.925 much of it was about making good content and how 0:06:22.005 --> 0:06:23.845 much of it about you just thought it would be 0:06:23.845 --> 0:06:24.845 a really cool thing. Today. 0:06:25.005 --> 0:06:26.965 It's funny because I was an er nurse at the time, 0:06:27.005 --> 0:06:29.645 So it was kind of just normal for me to 0:06:29.725 --> 0:06:32.285 find out when other women are pregnant before they did. 0:06:32.365 --> 0:06:35.245 That was kind of a normal. And so we had 0:06:35.245 --> 0:06:37.085 the YouTube channel. I was still working as a nurse, 0:06:37.325 --> 0:06:40.405 and I'm testing this lady's year now and I'm trying 0:06:40.405 --> 0:06:42.485 to figure out how we can make our next pregnancy 0:06:42.725 --> 0:06:45.125 a big moment. Like everybody else in the blogging space 0:06:45.285 --> 0:06:48.205 was like the pregnancy videos were huge, So like, how 0:06:48.205 --> 0:06:50.165 can I do something nobody else has done? And yeah, 0:06:50.165 --> 0:06:52.285 I clicked. It's like I got to do this to Nia. 0:06:52.325 --> 0:06:54.685 I clicked her year and then get the pause of 0:06:54.725 --> 0:06:56.405 pregnancy result before she does. 0:06:56.725 --> 0:06:59.285 That was so wild, Nia, I mean, I assume you 0:06:59.365 --> 0:07:01.685 discussed it before you posted it. How did you feel 0:07:01.685 --> 0:07:02.125 about that? 0:07:02.445 --> 0:07:04.485 I was so excited to be pregnant. I didn't even care, 0:07:04.685 --> 0:07:06.445 Like it didn't even cross my mind much that my 0:07:06.485 --> 0:07:11.205 pee was going to be. Like Sam has such grand ideas, 0:07:11.205 --> 0:07:14.005 He's always able to see them all the way through. 0:07:14.445 --> 0:07:16.125 I'm never thinking in my head like this is gonna 0:07:16.165 --> 0:07:18.405 go viral, millions of people are gonna see my pee. 0:07:18.445 --> 0:07:21.005 Like that just wasn't what was going through my mind. 0:07:21.245 --> 0:07:24.605 And you know, once it happened, of course, I was like, 0:07:24.805 --> 0:07:28.725 oh my gosh, I wish I explained, like, because people 0:07:28.725 --> 0:07:31.645 are like, you're dehydrated. What that's so gross? You know, 0:07:31.765 --> 0:07:35.485 Like I'm here all the things. There's a very logical reason. 0:07:35.845 --> 0:07:37.645 I've had some moms back me up on it. We 0:07:37.725 --> 0:07:40.525 lived in an older home with I guess it's thin 0:07:40.605 --> 0:07:42.205 walls the wrong way to put it. You could just 0:07:42.245 --> 0:07:44.205 hear everything. You can hear the walking around on the 0:07:44.205 --> 0:07:46.805 ground anyway, And so I didn't flush the toilet at 0:07:46.845 --> 0:07:48.485 night because it would wake the babies up, or so 0:07:48.605 --> 0:07:50.405 I thought if I had flushed the toilet and then 0:07:50.405 --> 0:07:53.165 a kid woke up, that happened multiple times. We had 0:07:53.165 --> 0:07:55.765 two children at the time. That happened multiple times with 0:07:55.845 --> 0:07:57.645 my babies, and so I just was like, I'm not 0:07:57.645 --> 0:07:59.725 even gonna risk it, you know, I just want to 0:07:59.725 --> 0:08:01.885 know all these people who are so annoyed by it, 0:08:01.965 --> 0:08:03.405 like do you actually flush? 0:08:03.405 --> 0:08:05.125 A lot of people? Do understand them? 0:08:05.565 --> 0:08:08.645 Yeah, I back you fully. Who flushes the toilet in 0:08:08.685 --> 0:08:10.445 the middle of the night after number ones? Like why 0:08:10.485 --> 0:08:16.605 would you? Nineteen million people saw that video and celebrated 0:08:16.685 --> 0:08:20.965 with you guys afterwards, though you had a miscarriage, which 0:08:21.085 --> 0:08:24.205 was devastating and I'm so sorry for your loss. And 0:08:24.245 --> 0:08:27.085 that's when you saw the ugly side, isn't it, Because 0:08:27.125 --> 0:08:29.605 some people said you just did the whole thing for 0:08:29.645 --> 0:08:30.805 a publicity stunt. 0:08:30.965 --> 0:08:33.605 You know what was the reaction, Well, they first originally 0:08:33.645 --> 0:08:36.525 accused us of faking the pregnancy, saying we can't get 0:08:36.565 --> 0:08:40.325 a positive result, we can't get hCG hormone and diluted yurin, 0:08:40.725 --> 0:08:44.245 which was false. You can, but we had people accusing 0:08:44.285 --> 0:08:46.365 us of lying. And then the miscarriage happened, so people 0:08:46.445 --> 0:08:49.085 doubled down, like, yep, they were absolutely faking it. Now 0:08:49.085 --> 0:08:50.365 they're faking a miscarriage. 0:08:50.445 --> 0:08:53.605 It was so devastating. It just like I had no 0:08:53.725 --> 0:08:56.245 expectations of that first video going viral, Like I just 0:08:56.365 --> 0:08:58.965 was blind sided by the hate. Honestly, I feel like 0:08:59.005 --> 0:09:01.965 in the other times that we've experienced, you know, hate 0:09:02.045 --> 0:09:03.965 comments and stuff like that, it just I don't know. 0:09:04.125 --> 0:09:06.565 This one really blindsided me because I was already grieving. 0:09:06.885 --> 0:09:10.085 It was so so hard. It's still blows my mind 0:09:10.125 --> 0:09:13.005 people truly believe I faked a miscarriage. It's crazy to me. 0:09:13.405 --> 0:09:15.325 You guys were a brand by this point, your family 0:09:15.365 --> 0:09:17.765 was a brand. You know, you were going through something 0:09:17.805 --> 0:09:21.525 really tough, and you also had to contend with everybody 0:09:21.525 --> 0:09:24.045 else having their feelings about it, which in this case 0:09:24.405 --> 0:09:27.085 was so cruel. Did it give you pause and make 0:09:27.165 --> 0:09:29.685 you think, you know what, I don't want to expose myself, 0:09:29.885 --> 0:09:31.565 our marriage, our family to this. 0:09:32.285 --> 0:09:34.445 I never did. I always felt like I had nothing 0:09:34.485 --> 0:09:37.965 to hide, even though I was hiding something. Yeah, this 0:09:38.165 --> 0:09:41.565 is weird. I just don't mind it sharing private moments 0:09:41.605 --> 0:09:44.245 with people. I think that started probably pretty early on. 0:09:44.765 --> 0:09:47.565 Your marriage was, by all accounts, looked great. You had 0:09:47.565 --> 0:09:50.325 a young family, you seemed happy. You were this gorgeous, 0:09:50.405 --> 0:09:54.045 good looking couple. Still are pretty good looking, let's be honest, 0:09:54.085 --> 0:09:56.925 ten years later. And I think that's really important to 0:09:57.205 --> 0:09:59.245 look at that because a lot of people think that 0:09:59.325 --> 0:10:02.925 cheating only happens in bad marriages, when you know, people 0:10:02.925 --> 0:10:05.445 are really disconnected, maybe when they're not having sex anymore, 0:10:05.925 --> 0:10:09.125 when they fall out of love. But it didn't seem 0:10:09.525 --> 0:10:11.525 from the video, is that that was the case with 0:10:11.605 --> 0:10:14.045 your marriage nw Nia. Of course you didn't know what 0:10:14.125 --> 0:10:16.125 was going on, but Sam, can you just take me 0:10:16.165 --> 0:10:18.205 a little bit inside your head at that time and 0:10:18.485 --> 0:10:21.005 why you started looking outside your marriage and what you 0:10:21.005 --> 0:10:21.845 were looking for. 0:10:21.965 --> 0:10:25.245 I think a lot of people believe I was straying 0:10:25.365 --> 0:10:28.645 and doing things behind your back while we're vlogging, And 0:10:28.685 --> 0:10:31.085 it never happened while vlogging. So when you say you 0:10:31.125 --> 0:10:34.325 saw a happy marriage and everybody looked happy, I was 0:10:34.405 --> 0:10:37.445 keeping secrets, but I wasn't doing anything behind your back 0:10:37.605 --> 0:10:40.805 from what people were seeing on the internet. But six months, 0:10:40.805 --> 0:10:44.245 four months previous to starting YouTube, that was probably the 0:10:44.325 --> 0:10:47.045 last time, or that was the last time I deleted 0:10:47.085 --> 0:10:49.085 Ashley Madison. That was the last time I strayed, and 0:10:49.125 --> 0:10:51.125 we found a church. So yeah, what was going through 0:10:51.125 --> 0:10:54.445 my head? The first one? Gosh, let me think, how. 0:10:54.285 --> 0:10:56.325 Long had you been married the first time? 0:10:56.885 --> 0:10:59.685 It was in our first year? How long? How many months? 0:10:59.685 --> 0:11:01.565 And she knows these details better than I do. 0:11:02.325 --> 0:11:04.325 I mean, had you have just been a few months 0:11:04.325 --> 0:11:07.365 in Like I got pregnant. We had like a honeymoon pregnancy, 0:11:07.485 --> 0:11:10.565 and I think, what is middle Towards the end of 0:11:10.605 --> 0:11:11.765 my pregnancy. 0:11:11.685 --> 0:11:14.525 I was in nursing school at the time, surrounded by women, 0:11:15.085 --> 0:11:17.045 and I made friends with a couple of guys who 0:11:17.085 --> 0:11:20.005 are single, and they flirted with all the women they 0:11:20.005 --> 0:11:22.885 went out with them. I kind of came along. I 0:11:22.885 --> 0:11:24.565 feel like that was kind of the start. I started 0:11:24.565 --> 0:11:26.885 becoming like my friends, but then of course they left 0:11:26.885 --> 0:11:29.685 the scene, and I continued to make stupid choices. I 0:11:29.765 --> 0:11:31.965 think it was just trying to find excitement in my life. 0:11:32.005 --> 0:11:33.805 When I became a nurse, I hated the job. I 0:11:33.845 --> 0:11:35.205 was like, what the heck did I do? I spent 0:11:35.245 --> 0:11:38.565 six years for this job and I hate it, and 0:11:38.645 --> 0:11:40.725 life just kind of hit me hard, and I think 0:11:40.725 --> 0:11:43.245 I did a lot of this stuff, almost like self mutilation. 0:11:43.445 --> 0:11:45.845 It was like, I hate myself, so let's just do 0:11:45.925 --> 0:11:48.005 this to yourself. Do whatever you want. You know, God 0:11:48.045 --> 0:11:50.125 doesn't want you to do this, but just do it anyway. 0:11:51.005 --> 0:11:53.285 It's not that Neil wasn't fulfilling me in my marriage. 0:11:53.325 --> 0:11:56.445 That wasn't the reason. Like, if you want to really 0:11:56.445 --> 0:11:59.565 get down to the basic answer, I think I hate 0:11:59.565 --> 0:12:00.765 saying a word, but boredom. 0:12:00.925 --> 0:12:03.885 Maybe were you looking for attention. I don't mean to 0:12:03.925 --> 0:12:06.125 sound cruel when I say that, But in your book, 0:12:06.165 --> 0:12:08.565 I learned that you were in a rock band in 0:12:08.645 --> 0:12:10.685 high school. It was called Free the Float, and the 0:12:10.725 --> 0:12:13.885 first song that you wrote and recorded was All We 0:12:13.925 --> 0:12:19.845 Want is Fame. You described yourself as a seventeen year 0:12:19.845 --> 0:12:23.445 old as being an attention hungry class clown when you 0:12:23.485 --> 0:12:26.205 were this twenty eight year old nurse. Was that how 0:12:26.245 --> 0:12:29.005 you were feeling again that you wanted some attention. 0:12:29.485 --> 0:12:34.245 Yeah. Since I can remember, I was always imagining myself 0:12:34.285 --> 0:12:36.685 in front of a large audience and being applauded. And 0:12:37.165 --> 0:12:39.565 I would have watched my favorite bands, But it wasn't 0:12:39.565 --> 0:12:41.925 their music I loved the most. It was their adoration 0:12:42.045 --> 0:12:43.605 that they were receiving that I love the most. And 0:12:44.685 --> 0:12:46.925 it was a really strange thing. I assume it was 0:12:46.965 --> 0:12:49.085 from the lack of validation I got from my father. 0:12:49.525 --> 0:12:51.325 Now as I look back, I kind of realized some 0:12:51.405 --> 0:12:54.525 of that. But yeah, in nursing school, I also was 0:12:54.525 --> 0:12:56.525 the class clown. I got class clown at the end 0:12:56.525 --> 0:12:59.325 of the thing. So yeah, I was still constantly looking 0:12:59.325 --> 0:13:02.485 for attention, cracking off in class. And I was even 0:13:02.525 --> 0:13:04.805 sent to the office as an adult in nursing school, 0:13:04.845 --> 0:13:05.245 which is. 0:13:06.685 --> 0:13:08.645 You got sent to the principal as an adult. 0:13:08.885 --> 0:13:11.765 I know, it's so pathetic, and I still fight it today. 0:13:11.765 --> 0:13:13.165 It's just an ongoing thing. 0:13:13.525 --> 0:13:16.605 When you started to cross some lines, was it a 0:13:16.725 --> 0:13:20.765 very clear line or was it things got a little 0:13:20.805 --> 0:13:23.965 bit blurry in the way that you were behaving with 0:13:24.005 --> 0:13:26.765 other women, Like is there a particular moment where you 0:13:26.885 --> 0:13:29.405 crossed over a particular line that you can remember? 0:13:29.885 --> 0:13:32.365 Yeah, I was always just walking right on the line. 0:13:32.725 --> 0:13:32.885 You know. 0:13:32.925 --> 0:13:35.205 It was like signing up for freshion Madison and like 0:13:35.285 --> 0:13:38.405 literally saying I want to have an affair. Like when 0:13:38.405 --> 0:13:40.365 I got to that point, it's like, what the heck? 0:13:40.405 --> 0:13:42.805 How did I get here? Like several years ago, I 0:13:42.805 --> 0:13:45.605 would have never just blatantly chosen to have an affair. 0:13:46.085 --> 0:13:48.885 It faded into that, you know, it was a slow fade. 0:13:49.965 --> 0:13:53.365 And of course it started probably with pornography, and you know, 0:13:53.485 --> 0:13:56.205 like in the documentary movies, I was so fascinated by 0:13:56.285 --> 0:13:59.805 romance in that aspect of my marriage that a novelty 0:13:59.885 --> 0:14:02.565 wore off and that was a bummer for me. So 0:14:02.605 --> 0:14:05.285 I wanted to keep seeking that attention in that romance. 0:14:05.525 --> 0:14:08.085 That's probably where it started. Just making eyes with other people, 0:14:08.285 --> 0:14:11.565 women making eyes back at me. Just that the type 0:14:11.565 --> 0:14:13.925 of romance that you don't know touching or anything, but 0:14:13.965 --> 0:14:16.565 you just know as a thing between you two. That's 0:14:16.645 --> 0:14:19.605 probably how it started. And then I kept calling. 0:14:19.405 --> 0:14:25.005 It's so interesting listening to Sam and Nia now after 0:14:25.085 --> 0:14:27.325 they've shared so much of their lives with the world 0:14:27.365 --> 0:14:29.645 on Netflix and with their own audience and community on 0:14:29.685 --> 0:14:33.165 their YouTube channel. Because it's so clear that it's still 0:14:33.165 --> 0:14:35.605 a very difficult conversation to have. I thought they might 0:14:35.645 --> 0:14:38.805 be like, kind of bluse about it. But what you 0:14:38.885 --> 0:14:41.925 can't see because you're listening to this is that Sam 0:14:41.965 --> 0:14:44.285 and Nia are actually talking to me from their bedroom 0:14:44.525 --> 0:14:47.285 while we're doing this interview. Behind them, I can see 0:14:47.325 --> 0:14:50.285 their bed, and on the wall behind their bed is 0:14:50.325 --> 0:14:53.605 a big blown up photograph of their family. It is 0:14:53.805 --> 0:14:57.365 just so intimate, and I can hear their kids playing 0:14:57.445 --> 0:14:59.085 in the background. They're not in the room, of course, 0:14:59.085 --> 0:15:00.845 but I can hear them in another part of the house. 0:15:01.405 --> 0:15:04.605 And what Sam is about to disclose next really does 0:15:04.685 --> 0:15:07.685 feel like a private conversation between a husband and a 0:15:07.725 --> 0:15:11.645 wife in the safety of their bedroom, sharing things that 0:15:11.685 --> 0:15:14.525 they did not share on the Netflix documentary. I didn't 0:15:14.525 --> 0:15:20.805 mean to get an exclusive, but here we are. How 0:15:20.845 --> 0:15:21.445 far did you go? 0:15:22.045 --> 0:15:25.725 Well, we've agreed not to talk about details. But I 0:15:25.765 --> 0:15:29.285 had an intercourse one time physically, that was how far 0:15:29.285 --> 0:15:33.365 I went intercourse one time with the prostitute. Emotionally, how 0:15:33.365 --> 0:15:35.685 far I went? I kissed the girl, held her hands, 0:15:35.685 --> 0:15:38.205 I guess that would be kind of just tell you how. 0:15:38.045 --> 0:15:41.005 Emotionally it's kind of surreal. We're sitting here, you guys 0:15:41.045 --> 0:15:43.285 are in your bedroom, You're talking to a stranger across 0:15:43.325 --> 0:15:45.205 the other side of the world in Australia. We can 0:15:45.205 --> 0:15:48.805 hear a storm in the background, which is kind of symbolic. 0:15:50.205 --> 0:15:53.165 Your husband's sitting next to you talking about that time 0:15:53.205 --> 0:15:55.725 he had sex. How do you feel It's. 0:15:55.525 --> 0:15:58.645 So weird because I can I can hear these things 0:15:58.685 --> 0:16:01.285 as facts and details that like matter for us to 0:16:01.325 --> 0:16:04.085 get to where we are today. Of course, I mean, 0:16:04.445 --> 0:16:06.405 it's sad. It's sad that he got there. It's sad 0:16:06.445 --> 0:16:09.925 that our marriage went through what it went through. But 0:16:10.405 --> 0:16:13.285 I don't see what he's saying as him. When he 0:16:13.325 --> 0:16:15.845 says these things. I'm envisioning a version of him, And 0:16:16.325 --> 0:16:19.005 you know, that's a beautiful thing that I can sit 0:16:19.165 --> 0:16:21.685 next to this version of Sam and that guy is 0:16:21.725 --> 0:16:23.765 long gone, and I'm just so thankful for that. 0:16:24.605 --> 0:16:28.125 It still hurts her a little bit. I know it's 0:16:28.205 --> 0:16:30.845 just facts, but every time we bring this stuff up, 0:16:31.165 --> 0:16:32.965 it's painful for both of us. And I got to 0:16:33.005 --> 0:16:35.605 be extra close to her after this and just kind 0:16:35.645 --> 0:16:37.525 of remind her who I am. 0:16:37.405 --> 0:16:40.565 In the books, Sam, You're write, infidelity doesn't add spice. 0:16:40.605 --> 0:16:45.845 It invites chaos. Even before the data breach with Ashley Madison, 0:16:46.005 --> 0:16:48.485 what kind of chaos was it inviting into your life? 0:16:48.605 --> 0:16:50.925 Well, first, just covering up the lies. I think the 0:16:51.005 --> 0:16:53.765 chaos started within myself. I was supposed to have a 0:16:53.765 --> 0:16:56.725 relationship with the Lord and I was praying to him. 0:16:56.805 --> 0:16:59.125 Yet I was still doing these things. And then I 0:16:59.165 --> 0:17:01.605 got further from the Lord. That was the first chaos. 0:17:01.645 --> 0:17:04.365 There's no order within me like that. I stopped phoning 0:17:04.885 --> 0:17:07.725 the manual that is the Bible, and so I was 0:17:07.805 --> 0:17:10.565 just scattered. My emotions were scattered. And then bringing that 0:17:10.605 --> 0:17:13.725 into my marriage. I thought I could handle that outside 0:17:13.725 --> 0:17:16.965 of my marriage, but it turns OUTNIA had suspicions for 0:17:17.485 --> 0:17:21.245 good reasons, because you know, my personality started changing, Like 0:17:21.325 --> 0:17:24.925 my love for her started decreasing because I was distracted 0:17:24.925 --> 0:17:27.165 by thoughts of other women. So that chaos enter to 0:17:27.205 --> 0:17:29.725 the home. Then I was distracted. You know, getting down 0:17:29.725 --> 0:17:32.245 before my kids was difficult because I was so side 0:17:32.285 --> 0:17:36.405 trackted by my sneaking life. You know, that's the chaos. 0:17:36.445 --> 0:17:39.805 It's like people think, let me take it. 0:17:39.845 --> 0:17:43.045 Worthy you're doing really good. It's not easy to talk 0:17:43.045 --> 0:17:43.805 about this stuff. 0:17:44.165 --> 0:17:46.245 I think a lot of people want freedom. They're like, 0:17:46.245 --> 0:17:48.445 I'm want freedom for my marriage. Someone to go outside 0:17:48.485 --> 0:17:51.485 of my marriage and seek freedom. But what I found 0:17:51.645 --> 0:17:55.205 is I became enslaved rather than more free. And I've 0:17:55.325 --> 0:17:58.445 started to understanding that freedom is actually just obeying the 0:17:58.565 --> 0:18:01.765 laws of the Lord and the laws of nature, obeying 0:18:01.805 --> 0:18:05.125 those and staying within it's confined. I explain this in 0:18:05.205 --> 0:18:07.165 documentary that didn't make it, But I kind of look 0:18:07.205 --> 0:18:08.805 at as like being in the swimming pool, Like if 0:18:08.805 --> 0:18:12.325 you don't obey the laws of the water, you'll drown. 0:18:12.725 --> 0:18:14.725 But if you do obey the roles and you swim 0:18:15.525 --> 0:18:19.165 and you respect, it's a resistance against you. It's very 0:18:19.165 --> 0:18:22.285 free if you can expect its boundaries. And so that's 0:18:22.325 --> 0:18:24.005 what I've learned. And I look back and I see 0:18:24.005 --> 0:18:25.485 that I was very much enslaved. 0:18:26.045 --> 0:18:29.285 Yeah, tangled up in this webles lies Neor. It's interesting 0:18:29.405 --> 0:18:32.885 he mentioned that you was suspicious looking back at that time, 0:18:33.765 --> 0:18:36.165 Were you suspicious? Did you think maybe there was someone 0:18:36.245 --> 0:18:37.725 else so that he was fooling around? 0:18:38.245 --> 0:18:41.565 Yes? Multiple times. A few times, like spot on, I 0:18:41.565 --> 0:18:44.085 would specifically say, I think maybe you did this, or 0:18:44.085 --> 0:18:47.165 I think maybe you are getting too close to this person, 0:18:47.245 --> 0:18:50.285 I mean, spot on, and you would convince me that 0:18:50.325 --> 0:18:52.605 I was wrong or that I was you know, yeah, 0:18:52.725 --> 0:18:55.965 find my imagination. And of course, like we still had 0:18:56.365 --> 0:18:59.645 a good relationship for the most part, you know, and 0:19:00.205 --> 0:19:02.165 it was easy to believe it if he's you know, 0:19:02.245 --> 0:19:04.445 convincing me and stuff. It was easy to convince myself 0:19:04.525 --> 0:19:07.245 because I would list out the things that were going 0:19:07.325 --> 0:19:10.565 well and kind of Okay, he couldn't be doing that 0:19:10.645 --> 0:19:12.165 because x y Z. 0:19:12.725 --> 0:19:15.845 What were our x y z out of interest? What 0:19:15.885 --> 0:19:18.085 were the things that were going well that made you think, oh, well, 0:19:18.085 --> 0:19:20.645 he couldn't be having an effect because these things. 0:19:20.565 --> 0:19:23.765 Well like for starters, going to church with me and 0:19:23.845 --> 0:19:27.925 our daughter, sleeping with me, being intimate with me, kissing me, 0:19:28.485 --> 0:19:30.605 not just like randomly either, I mean we had like 0:19:31.405 --> 0:19:34.725 one specific time that he had betrayed me. The evening 0:19:34.725 --> 0:19:37.685 he'd come home and we had like a really sweet moment. 0:19:37.685 --> 0:19:39.805 I sat in his lap, we looked at some stuff together, 0:19:39.965 --> 0:19:42.605 we cuddled, and he had just been out with another woman. 0:19:42.725 --> 0:19:46.125 Like it's strange and I don't understand it, but in 0:19:46.165 --> 0:19:48.165 the moment when he confessed everything to me, I thought 0:19:48.205 --> 0:19:50.285 everything was a lie, nothing had ever been real. But 0:19:50.325 --> 0:19:51.645 now that I'm on the other side of it, I 0:19:51.685 --> 0:19:54.725 can look at those and see how conflicted and just 0:19:54.765 --> 0:19:57.485 like torn he I mean, I would have felt really 0:19:57.525 --> 0:19:59.925 torn and conflicted just looking back at the pattern that 0:19:59.965 --> 0:20:01.525 we had, Like those are some of the things we 0:20:01.565 --> 0:20:03.085 still had closeness. 0:20:02.565 --> 0:20:06.405 And fun I'm remembering, like during that time he was 0:20:06.445 --> 0:20:09.245 suspicious and I was able to still love on her 0:20:09.405 --> 0:20:12.205 and accept her love. I feel like it was probably 0:20:12.365 --> 0:20:14.365 just like she was kind of my comfort, Like there 0:20:14.405 --> 0:20:17.605