1 00:00:10,405 --> 00:00:15,005 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges 2 00:00:15,045 --> 00:00:17,685 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:17,765 --> 00:00:29,845 Speaker 1: is recorded on from Mamma. I'm Meya Friedman. You're listening 4 00:00:29,845 --> 00:00:33,325 Speaker 1: to the No Filter podcast and this story starts with 5 00:00:33,445 --> 00:00:37,565 Speaker 1: a wei, which is not something I've ever said about 6 00:00:37,565 --> 00:00:40,605 Speaker 1: an episode of No Filter before, but hey, I like 7 00:00:40,645 --> 00:00:45,045 Speaker 1: to keep things interesting around here. The name Ashley Madison 8 00:00:45,405 --> 00:00:49,205 Speaker 1: will probably be familiar to you, either back from two 9 00:00:49,245 --> 00:00:52,485 Speaker 1: thousand and two when the dating site for people who 10 00:00:52,485 --> 00:00:56,445 Speaker 1: wanted to have an Affair launched or the recent Netflix 11 00:00:56,485 --> 00:01:00,765 Speaker 1: documentary about it. Ashley Madison was a business and a 12 00:01:00,765 --> 00:01:03,765 Speaker 1: website that was set up specifically for married people who 13 00:01:03,845 --> 00:01:07,085 Speaker 1: wanted to have an affair with other married people. It 14 00:01:07,165 --> 00:01:11,205 Speaker 1: kind of operated on this idea of utually assured destruction. 15 00:01:11,885 --> 00:01:15,045 Speaker 1: It was pretty scandalous at the time. Their tagline was 16 00:01:15,125 --> 00:01:19,085 Speaker 1: life is Short, Have an Affair, and the CEO, a 17 00:01:19,125 --> 00:01:23,445 Speaker 1: bloke called Noel Biederman, capitalized on all that controversy. He 18 00:01:23,645 --> 00:01:26,085 Speaker 1: was this kind of over the top showman who would 19 00:01:26,085 --> 00:01:28,525 Speaker 1: go on TV and do all these interviews, and he'd 20 00:01:28,525 --> 00:01:31,165 Speaker 1: often drag his wife along as well, basically making the 21 00:01:31,325 --> 00:01:34,605 Speaker 1: argument that cheaters are going to cheat, why not monetize it, 22 00:01:35,085 --> 00:01:39,565 Speaker 1: and monetize it he did, Ashley Madison made tens of 23 00:01:39,605 --> 00:01:43,445 Speaker 1: millions of dollars. That was until twenty fifteen, when an 24 00:01:43,445 --> 00:01:47,645 Speaker 1: anonymous group who called itself the Impact Team, announced that 25 00:01:47,685 --> 00:01:51,485 Speaker 1: it had hacked the Ashley Madison website. After some frantic 26 00:01:51,525 --> 00:01:55,405 Speaker 1: attempts by NOL and the Ashley Madison management to stop 27 00:01:55,445 --> 00:01:58,565 Speaker 1: the Impact Team, they made good on their promise and 28 00:01:58,605 --> 00:02:01,605 Speaker 1: release the data. Not only did this mean that the 29 00:02:01,725 --> 00:02:04,885 Speaker 1: names of all the would be cheaters were released, but 30 00:02:05,045 --> 00:02:09,165 Speaker 1: also their home addresses, their bank details, and even things 31 00:02:09,205 --> 00:02:12,405 Speaker 1: like their sexual preferences. All of this stuff had to 32 00:02:12,445 --> 00:02:15,285 Speaker 1: be entered when you joined the website, and the leak 33 00:02:15,325 --> 00:02:18,165 Speaker 1: also exposed the fact that the site was mostly full 34 00:02:18,205 --> 00:02:21,765 Speaker 1: of men and that the women, well, they were bots, 35 00:02:22,125 --> 00:02:25,405 Speaker 1: as in they were not real. I remember when this happened. 36 00:02:25,725 --> 00:02:29,445 Speaker 1: It was massive news and journalists were scouring the list 37 00:02:29,845 --> 00:02:34,045 Speaker 1: for anything that was explosive, particularly people who were in 38 00:02:34,085 --> 00:02:36,245 Speaker 1: the public eye. Men that were in the public eye. 39 00:02:36,645 --> 00:02:40,565 Speaker 1: People's lives were ruined, People lost their jobs, their reputations 40 00:02:40,565 --> 00:02:43,725 Speaker 1: were destroyed, and some people even took their own lives 41 00:02:43,925 --> 00:02:47,085 Speaker 1: because of the consequences and the humiliation. And caught up 42 00:02:47,125 --> 00:02:51,485 Speaker 1: in this firestorm was one couple called Sam and Nia Raider. 43 00:02:51,605 --> 00:02:54,365 Speaker 1: They were childhood sweethearts and you may have seen them 44 00:02:54,365 --> 00:02:58,045 Speaker 1: if you've watched the Netflix documentary I Love Being a Dad. 45 00:02:58,085 --> 00:03:02,525 Speaker 2: I loved my wife. It was a beautiful marriage, but 46 00:03:02,605 --> 00:03:06,285 Speaker 2: it was also just like monotonous. I remember seeing an 47 00:03:06,325 --> 00:03:11,685 Speaker 2: advertisement for sure having a I was like, that sounds intriguing. 48 00:03:12,645 --> 00:03:16,365 Speaker 1: Before the Ashley Madison scandal broke, Sam and Nia were 49 00:03:16,365 --> 00:03:20,805 Speaker 1: pretty successful family vloggers, kind of like influencers before that 50 00:03:20,925 --> 00:03:23,965 Speaker 1: was a thing, and they made viral videos about their 51 00:03:24,005 --> 00:03:28,445 Speaker 1: lives together with their young family. One video that shows 52 00:03:28,485 --> 00:03:31,805 Speaker 1: a very happy Sam and Nia driving with their daughter 53 00:03:31,845 --> 00:03:33,765 Speaker 1: in the back seat while their lip synced to a 54 00:03:33,765 --> 00:03:36,325 Speaker 1: Frozen song really put them on the map when it 55 00:03:36,365 --> 00:03:38,685 Speaker 1: went viral, and it didn't caught the attention of Disney. 56 00:03:39,965 --> 00:03:55,045 Speaker 1: My one For Sam. It turns out that love was 57 00:03:55,245 --> 00:03:58,165 Speaker 1: in fact an open door, but maybe not in the 58 00:03:58,165 --> 00:04:01,965 Speaker 1: way Nia thought. The next video that they made that 59 00:04:02,045 --> 00:04:05,205 Speaker 1: went viral, this is where we comes in. So Sam 60 00:04:05,245 --> 00:04:09,405 Speaker 1: wanted to do something really big and splashy and to 61 00:04:09,405 --> 00:04:12,365 Speaker 1: get a lot of attention on YouTube, and Nia had 62 00:04:12,365 --> 00:04:14,765 Speaker 1: told him that her period was late. So what he 63 00:04:14,805 --> 00:04:17,165 Speaker 1: did he filmed all this, was to go into the 64 00:04:17,205 --> 00:04:20,205 Speaker 1: bathroom after she'd been to the toilet and get a 65 00:04:20,205 --> 00:04:23,565 Speaker 1: pregnancy test and extract some of her WII from the toilet, 66 00:04:23,885 --> 00:04:27,325 Speaker 1: put it on the pregnancy test, and tell her live 67 00:04:27,565 --> 00:04:29,725 Speaker 1: while he was filming and get her reaction. 68 00:04:30,045 --> 00:04:33,565 Speaker 2: So here I am, and I'm so excited. I have 69 00:04:33,885 --> 00:04:37,045 Speaker 2: a specimen. I have a specimen. I knew it would 70 00:04:37,045 --> 00:04:38,645 Speaker 2: be there. I don't know if it'll throw it off 71 00:04:38,685 --> 00:04:42,285 Speaker 2: because it's all diluted. But I also brought almost pregnancy test, 72 00:04:42,685 --> 00:04:45,685 Speaker 2: and this time around, I'm going to be doing the announcement. 73 00:04:46,005 --> 00:04:48,765 Speaker 2: At least I hope. I hoped so bad she's pregnant. 74 00:04:49,125 --> 00:04:51,805 Speaker 1: The angle on it was that he was going to 75 00:04:51,925 --> 00:04:54,925 Speaker 1: know that she was pregnant before she knew that she 76 00:04:55,005 --> 00:04:57,765 Speaker 1: was pregnant. And yes, it went viral and they did 77 00:04:57,805 --> 00:05:00,485 Speaker 1: lots of interviews about it. I told you the story 78 00:05:00,605 --> 00:05:04,525 Speaker 1: was unusual. So that's the way. Sam and Nia share 79 00:05:04,605 --> 00:05:07,525 Speaker 1: a lot about their experience in the documentary and even 80 00:05:07,565 --> 00:05:10,565 Speaker 1: more in their book called Living Truth. But in the 81 00:05:10,605 --> 00:05:13,165 Speaker 1: course of the conversation I'm about to share with you, 82 00:05:13,205 --> 00:05:16,365 Speaker 1: they open up about a lot of very personal details 83 00:05:16,485 --> 00:05:19,565 Speaker 1: that they haven't shared before, even in the Netflix documentary. 84 00:05:20,165 --> 00:05:22,285 Speaker 1: I know that the biggest question you'll have, the biggest 85 00:05:22,365 --> 00:05:25,325 Speaker 1: question most people have when they hear Sam and Nia's story, 86 00:05:26,005 --> 00:05:28,325 Speaker 1: is how do you get past cheating? How do you 87 00:05:28,365 --> 00:05:33,165 Speaker 1: get past betrayal and public humiliation? How do you get 88 00:05:33,205 --> 00:05:35,405 Speaker 1: past the person who's meant to love you more than 89 00:05:35,445 --> 00:05:40,525 Speaker 1: anyone betraying you like that? Sam and Nia are disarmingly honest, 90 00:05:40,965 --> 00:05:43,605 Speaker 1: and as you'll hear, their story is actually a lot 91 00:05:43,645 --> 00:05:47,965 Speaker 1: more than just the Ashley Madison scandal. It's about love 92 00:05:48,285 --> 00:05:52,085 Speaker 1: and infidelity and betrayal and forgiveness and how all of 93 00:05:52,125 --> 00:05:56,565 Speaker 1: those things can take many forms. Here's my conversation with 94 00:05:56,725 --> 00:06:02,365 Speaker 1: Sam and Nia. The first time I became aware of 95 00:06:02,405 --> 00:06:05,565 Speaker 1: you guys, I was running a women's website part of 96 00:06:05,605 --> 00:06:08,965 Speaker 1: our company still today, and it was the we video. 97 00:06:09,365 --> 00:06:11,605 Speaker 1: I'm going to say it, Sam, how did the idea 98 00:06:11,685 --> 00:06:15,565 Speaker 1: of the pregnancy test come about? It was unlike anything 99 00:06:15,605 --> 00:06:18,645 Speaker 1: anyone had ever seen. What gave you that idea? How 100 00:06:18,725 --> 00:06:21,925 Speaker 1: much of it was about making good content and how 101 00:06:22,005 --> 00:06:23,845 Speaker 1: much of it about you just thought it would be 102 00:06:23,845 --> 00:06:24,845 Speaker 1: a really cool thing. Today. 103 00:06:25,005 --> 00:06:26,965 Speaker 2: It's funny because I was an er nurse at the time, 104 00:06:27,005 --> 00:06:29,645 Speaker 2: So it was kind of just normal for me to 105 00:06:29,725 --> 00:06:32,285 Speaker 2: find out when other women are pregnant before they did. 106 00:06:32,365 --> 00:06:35,245 Speaker 2: That was kind of a normal. And so we had 107 00:06:35,245 --> 00:06:37,085 Speaker 2: the YouTube channel. I was still working as a nurse, 108 00:06:37,325 --> 00:06:40,405 Speaker 2: and I'm testing this lady's year now and I'm trying 109 00:06:40,405 --> 00:06:42,485 Speaker 2: to figure out how we can make our next pregnancy 110 00:06:42,725 --> 00:06:45,125 Speaker 2: a big moment. Like everybody else in the blogging space 111 00:06:45,285 --> 00:06:48,205 Speaker 2: was like the pregnancy videos were huge, So like, how 112 00:06:48,205 --> 00:06:50,165 Speaker 2: can I do something nobody else has done? And yeah, 113 00:06:50,165 --> 00:06:52,285 Speaker 2: I clicked. It's like I got to do this to Nia. 114 00:06:52,325 --> 00:06:54,685 Speaker 2: I clicked her year and then get the pause of 115 00:06:54,725 --> 00:06:56,405 Speaker 2: pregnancy result before she does. 116 00:06:56,725 --> 00:06:59,285 Speaker 1: That was so wild, Nia, I mean, I assume you 117 00:06:59,365 --> 00:07:01,685 Speaker 1: discussed it before you posted it. How did you feel 118 00:07:01,685 --> 00:07:02,125 Speaker 1: about that? 119 00:07:02,445 --> 00:07:04,485 Speaker 3: I was so excited to be pregnant. I didn't even care, 120 00:07:04,685 --> 00:07:06,445 Speaker 3: Like it didn't even cross my mind much that my 121 00:07:06,485 --> 00:07:11,205 Speaker 3: pee was going to be. Like Sam has such grand ideas, 122 00:07:11,205 --> 00:07:14,005 Speaker 3: He's always able to see them all the way through. 123 00:07:14,445 --> 00:07:16,125 Speaker 3: I'm never thinking in my head like this is gonna 124 00:07:16,165 --> 00:07:18,405 Speaker 3: go viral, millions of people are gonna see my pee. 125 00:07:18,445 --> 00:07:21,005 Speaker 3: Like that just wasn't what was going through my mind. 126 00:07:21,245 --> 00:07:24,605 Speaker 3: And you know, once it happened, of course, I was like, 127 00:07:24,805 --> 00:07:28,725 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I wish I explained, like, because people 128 00:07:28,725 --> 00:07:31,645 Speaker 3: are like, you're dehydrated. What that's so gross? You know, 129 00:07:31,765 --> 00:07:35,485 Speaker 3: Like I'm here all the things. There's a very logical reason. 130 00:07:35,845 --> 00:07:37,645 Speaker 3: I've had some moms back me up on it. We 131 00:07:37,725 --> 00:07:40,525 Speaker 3: lived in an older home with I guess it's thin 132 00:07:40,605 --> 00:07:42,205 Speaker 3: walls the wrong way to put it. You could just 133 00:07:42,245 --> 00:07:44,205 Speaker 3: hear everything. You can hear the walking around on the 134 00:07:44,205 --> 00:07:46,805 Speaker 3: ground anyway, And so I didn't flush the toilet at 135 00:07:46,845 --> 00:07:48,485 Speaker 3: night because it would wake the babies up, or so 136 00:07:48,605 --> 00:07:50,405 Speaker 3: I thought if I had flushed the toilet and then 137 00:07:50,405 --> 00:07:53,165 Speaker 3: a kid woke up, that happened multiple times. We had 138 00:07:53,165 --> 00:07:55,765 Speaker 3: two children at the time. That happened multiple times with 139 00:07:55,845 --> 00:07:57,645 Speaker 3: my babies, and so I just was like, I'm not 140 00:07:57,645 --> 00:07:59,725 Speaker 3: even gonna risk it, you know, I just want to 141 00:07:59,725 --> 00:08:01,885 Speaker 3: know all these people who are so annoyed by it, 142 00:08:01,965 --> 00:08:03,405 Speaker 3: like do you actually flush? 143 00:08:03,405 --> 00:08:05,125 Speaker 2: A lot of people? Do understand them? 144 00:08:05,565 --> 00:08:08,645 Speaker 1: Yeah, I back you fully. Who flushes the toilet in 145 00:08:08,685 --> 00:08:10,445 Speaker 1: the middle of the night after number ones? Like why 146 00:08:10,485 --> 00:08:16,605 Speaker 1: would you? Nineteen million people saw that video and celebrated 147 00:08:16,685 --> 00:08:20,965 Speaker 1: with you guys afterwards, though you had a miscarriage, which 148 00:08:21,085 --> 00:08:24,205 Speaker 1: was devastating and I'm so sorry for your loss. And 149 00:08:24,245 --> 00:08:27,085 Speaker 1: that's when you saw the ugly side, isn't it, Because 150 00:08:27,125 --> 00:08:29,605 Speaker 1: some people said you just did the whole thing for 151 00:08:29,645 --> 00:08:30,805 Speaker 1: a publicity stunt. 152 00:08:30,965 --> 00:08:33,605 Speaker 2: You know what was the reaction, Well, they first originally 153 00:08:33,645 --> 00:08:36,525 Speaker 2: accused us of faking the pregnancy, saying we can't get 154 00:08:36,565 --> 00:08:40,325 Speaker 2: a positive result, we can't get hCG hormone and diluted yurin, 155 00:08:40,725 --> 00:08:44,245 Speaker 2: which was false. You can, but we had people accusing 156 00:08:44,285 --> 00:08:46,365 Speaker 2: us of lying. And then the miscarriage happened, so people 157 00:08:46,445 --> 00:08:49,085 Speaker 2: doubled down, like, yep, they were absolutely faking it. Now 158 00:08:49,085 --> 00:08:50,365 Speaker 2: they're faking a miscarriage. 159 00:08:50,445 --> 00:08:53,605 Speaker 3: It was so devastating. It just like I had no 160 00:08:53,725 --> 00:08:56,245 Speaker 3: expectations of that first video going viral, Like I just 161 00:08:56,365 --> 00:08:58,965 Speaker 3: was blind sided by the hate. Honestly, I feel like 162 00:08:59,005 --> 00:09:01,965 Speaker 3: in the other times that we've experienced, you know, hate 163 00:09:02,045 --> 00:09:03,965 Speaker 3: comments and stuff like that, it just I don't know. 164 00:09:04,125 --> 00:09:06,565 Speaker 3: This one really blindsided me because I was already grieving. 165 00:09:06,885 --> 00:09:10,085 Speaker 3: It was so so hard. It's still blows my mind 166 00:09:10,125 --> 00:09:13,005 Speaker 3: people truly believe I faked a miscarriage. It's crazy to me. 167 00:09:13,405 --> 00:09:15,325 Speaker 1: You guys were a brand by this point, your family 168 00:09:15,365 --> 00:09:17,765 Speaker 1: was a brand. You know, you were going through something 169 00:09:17,805 --> 00:09:21,525 Speaker 1: really tough, and you also had to contend with everybody 170 00:09:21,525 --> 00:09:24,045 Speaker 1: else having their feelings about it, which in this case 171 00:09:24,405 --> 00:09:27,085 Speaker 1: was so cruel. Did it give you pause and make 172 00:09:27,165 --> 00:09:29,685 Speaker 1: you think, you know what, I don't want to expose myself, 173 00:09:29,885 --> 00:09:31,565 Speaker 1: our marriage, our family to this. 174 00:09:32,285 --> 00:09:34,445 Speaker 2: I never did. I always felt like I had nothing 175 00:09:34,485 --> 00:09:37,965 Speaker 2: to hide, even though I was hiding something. Yeah, this 176 00:09:38,165 --> 00:09:41,565 Speaker 2: is weird. I just don't mind it sharing private moments 177 00:09:41,605 --> 00:09:44,245 Speaker 2: with people. I think that started probably pretty early on. 178 00:09:44,765 --> 00:09:47,565 Speaker 1: Your marriage was, by all accounts, looked great. You had 179 00:09:47,565 --> 00:09:50,325 Speaker 1: a young family, you seemed happy. You were this gorgeous, 180 00:09:50,405 --> 00:09:54,045 Speaker 1: good looking couple. Still are pretty good looking, let's be honest, 181 00:09:54,085 --> 00:09:56,925 Speaker 1: ten years later. And I think that's really important to 182 00:09:57,205 --> 00:09:59,245 Speaker 1: look at that because a lot of people think that 183 00:09:59,325 --> 00:10:02,925 Speaker 1: cheating only happens in bad marriages, when you know, people 184 00:10:02,925 --> 00:10:05,445 Speaker 1: are really disconnected, maybe when they're not having sex anymore, 185 00:10:05,925 --> 00:10:09,125 Speaker 1: when they fall out of love. But it didn't seem 186 00:10:09,525 --> 00:10:11,525 Speaker 1: from the video, is that that was the case with 187 00:10:11,605 --> 00:10:14,045 Speaker 1: your marriage nw Nia. Of course you didn't know what 188 00:10:14,125 --> 00:10:16,125 Speaker 1: was going on, but Sam, can you just take me 189 00:10:16,165 --> 00:10:18,205 Speaker 1: a little bit inside your head at that time and 190 00:10:18,485 --> 00:10:21,005 Speaker 1: why you started looking outside your marriage and what you 191 00:10:21,005 --> 00:10:21,845 Speaker 1: were looking for. 192 00:10:21,965 --> 00:10:25,245 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people believe I was straying 193 00:10:25,365 --> 00:10:28,645 Speaker 2: and doing things behind your back while we're vlogging, And 194 00:10:28,685 --> 00:10:31,085 Speaker 2: it never happened while vlogging. So when you say you 195 00:10:31,125 --> 00:10:34,325 Speaker 2: saw a happy marriage and everybody looked happy, I was 196 00:10:34,405 --> 00:10:37,445 Speaker 2: keeping secrets, but I wasn't doing anything behind your back 197 00:10:37,605 --> 00:10:40,805 Speaker 2: from what people were seeing on the internet. But six months, 198 00:10:40,805 --> 00:10:44,245 Speaker 2: four months previous to starting YouTube, that was probably the 199 00:10:44,325 --> 00:10:47,045 Speaker 2: last time, or that was the last time I deleted 200 00:10:47,085 --> 00:10:49,085 Speaker 2: Ashley Madison. That was the last time I strayed, and 201 00:10:49,125 --> 00:10:51,125 Speaker 2: we found a church. So yeah, what was going through 202 00:10:51,125 --> 00:10:54,445 Speaker 2: my head? The first one? Gosh, let me think, how. 203 00:10:54,285 --> 00:10:56,325 Speaker 1: Long had you been married the first time? 204 00:10:56,885 --> 00:10:59,685 Speaker 2: It was in our first year? How long? How many months? 205 00:10:59,685 --> 00:11:01,565 Speaker 2: And she knows these details better than I do. 206 00:11:02,325 --> 00:11:04,325 Speaker 3: I mean, had you have just been a few months 207 00:11:04,325 --> 00:11:07,365 Speaker 3: in Like I got pregnant. We had like a honeymoon pregnancy, 208 00:11:07,485 --> 00:11:10,565 Speaker 3: and I think, what is middle Towards the end of 209 00:11:10,605 --> 00:11:11,765 Speaker 3: my pregnancy. 210 00:11:11,685 --> 00:11:14,525 Speaker 2: I was in nursing school at the time, surrounded by women, 211 00:11:15,085 --> 00:11:17,045 Speaker 2: and I made friends with a couple of guys who 212 00:11:17,085 --> 00:11:20,005 Speaker 2: are single, and they flirted with all the women they 213 00:11:20,005 --> 00:11:22,885 Speaker 2: went out with them. I kind of came along. I 214 00:11:22,885 --> 00:11:24,565 Speaker 2: feel like that was kind of the start. I started 215 00:11:24,565 --> 00:11:26,885 Speaker 2: becoming like my friends, but then of course they left 216 00:11:26,885 --> 00:11:29,685 Speaker 2: the scene, and I continued to make stupid choices. I 217 00:11:29,765 --> 00:11:31,965 Speaker 2: think it was just trying to find excitement in my life. 218 00:11:32,005 --> 00:11:33,805 Speaker 2: When I became a nurse, I hated the job. I 219 00:11:33,845 --> 00:11:35,205 Speaker 2: was like, what the heck did I do? I spent 220 00:11:35,245 --> 00:11:38,565 Speaker 2: six years for this job and I hate it, and 221 00:11:38,645 --> 00:11:40,725 Speaker 2: life just kind of hit me hard, and I think 222 00:11:40,725 --> 00:11:43,245 Speaker 2: I did a lot of this stuff, almost like self mutilation. 223 00:11:43,445 --> 00:11:45,845 Speaker 2: It was like, I hate myself, so let's just do 224 00:11:45,925 --> 00:11:48,005 Speaker 2: this to yourself. Do whatever you want. You know, God 225 00:11:48,045 --> 00:11:50,125 Speaker 2: doesn't want you to do this, but just do it anyway. 226 00:11:51,005 --> 00:11:53,285 Speaker 2: It's not that Neil wasn't fulfilling me in my marriage. 227 00:11:53,325 --> 00:11:56,445 Speaker 2: That wasn't the reason. Like, if you want to really 228 00:11:56,445 --> 00:11:59,565 Speaker 2: get down to the basic answer, I think I hate 229 00:11:59,565 --> 00:12:00,765 Speaker 2: saying a word, but boredom. 230 00:12:00,925 --> 00:12:03,885 Speaker 1: Maybe were you looking for attention. I don't mean to 231 00:12:03,925 --> 00:12:06,125 Speaker 1: sound cruel when I say that, But in your book, 232 00:12:06,165 --> 00:12:08,565 Speaker 1: I learned that you were in a rock band in 233 00:12:08,645 --> 00:12:10,685 Speaker 1: high school. It was called Free the Float, and the 234 00:12:10,725 --> 00:12:13,885 Speaker 1: first song that you wrote and recorded was All We 235 00:12:13,925 --> 00:12:19,845 Speaker 1: Want is Fame. You described yourself as a seventeen year 236 00:12:19,845 --> 00:12:23,445 Speaker 1: old as being an attention hungry class clown when you 237 00:12:23,485 --> 00:12:26,205 Speaker 1: were this twenty eight year old nurse. Was that how 238 00:12:26,245 --> 00:12:29,005 Speaker 1: you were feeling again that you wanted some attention. 239 00:12:29,485 --> 00:12:34,245 Speaker 2: Yeah. Since I can remember, I was always imagining myself 240 00:12:34,285 --> 00:12:36,685 Speaker 2: in front of a large audience and being applauded. And 241 00:12:37,165 --> 00:12:39,565 Speaker 2: I would have watched my favorite bands, But it wasn't 242 00:12:39,565 --> 00:12:41,925 Speaker 2: their music I loved the most. It was their adoration 243 00:12:42,045 --> 00:12:43,605 Speaker 2: that they were receiving that I love the most. And 244 00:12:44,685 --> 00:12:46,925 Speaker 2: it was a really strange thing. I assume it was 245 00:12:46,965 --> 00:12:49,085 Speaker 2: from the lack of validation I got from my father. 246 00:12:49,525 --> 00:12:51,325 Speaker 2: Now as I look back, I kind of realized some 247 00:12:51,405 --> 00:12:54,525 Speaker 2: of that. But yeah, in nursing school, I also was 248 00:12:54,525 --> 00:12:56,525 Speaker 2: the class clown. I got class clown at the end 249 00:12:56,525 --> 00:12:59,325 Speaker 2: of the thing. So yeah, I was still constantly looking 250 00:12:59,325 --> 00:13:02,485 Speaker 2: for attention, cracking off in class. And I was even 251 00:13:02,525 --> 00:13:04,805 Speaker 2: sent to the office as an adult in nursing school, 252 00:13:04,845 --> 00:13:05,245 Speaker 2: which is. 253 00:13:06,685 --> 00:13:08,645 Speaker 1: You got sent to the principal as an adult. 254 00:13:08,885 --> 00:13:11,765 Speaker 2: I know, it's so pathetic, and I still fight it today. 255 00:13:11,765 --> 00:13:13,165 Speaker 2: It's just an ongoing thing. 256 00:13:13,525 --> 00:13:16,605 Speaker 1: When you started to cross some lines, was it a 257 00:13:16,725 --> 00:13:20,765 Speaker 1: very clear line or was it things got a little 258 00:13:20,805 --> 00:13:23,965 Speaker 1: bit blurry in the way that you were behaving with 259 00:13:24,005 --> 00:13:26,765 Speaker 1: other women, Like is there a particular moment where you 260 00:13:26,885 --> 00:13:29,405 Speaker 1: crossed over a particular line that you can remember? 261 00:13:29,885 --> 00:13:32,365 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was always just walking right on the line. 262 00:13:32,725 --> 00:13:32,885 Speaker 1: You know. 263 00:13:32,925 --> 00:13:35,205 Speaker 2: It was like signing up for freshion Madison and like 264 00:13:35,285 --> 00:13:38,405 Speaker 2: literally saying I want to have an affair. Like when 265 00:13:38,405 --> 00:13:40,365 Speaker 2: I got to that point, it's like, what the heck? 266 00:13:40,405 --> 00:13:42,805 Speaker 2: How did I get here? Like several years ago, I 267 00:13:42,805 --> 00:13:45,605 Speaker 2: would have never just blatantly chosen to have an affair. 268 00:13:46,085 --> 00:13:48,885 Speaker 2: It faded into that, you know, it was a slow fade. 269 00:13:49,965 --> 00:13:53,365 Speaker 2: And of course it started probably with pornography, and you know, 270 00:13:53,485 --> 00:13:56,205 Speaker 2: like in the documentary movies, I was so fascinated by 271 00:13:56,285 --> 00:13:59,805 Speaker 2: romance in that aspect of my marriage that a novelty 272 00:13:59,885 --> 00:14:02,565 Speaker 2: wore off and that was a bummer for me. So 273 00:14:02,605 --> 00:14:05,285 Speaker 2: I wanted to keep seeking that attention in that romance. 274 00:14:05,525 --> 00:14:08,085 Speaker 2: That's probably where it started. Just making eyes with other people, 275 00:14:08,285 --> 00:14:11,565 Speaker 2: women making eyes back at me. Just that the type 276 00:14:11,565 --> 00:14:13,925 Speaker 2: of romance that you don't know touching or anything, but 277 00:14:13,965 --> 00:14:16,565 Speaker 2: you just know as a thing between you two. That's 278 00:14:16,645 --> 00:14:19,605 Speaker 2: probably how it started. And then I kept calling. 279 00:14:19,405 --> 00:14:25,005 Speaker 1: It's so interesting listening to Sam and Nia now after 280 00:14:25,085 --> 00:14:27,325 Speaker 1: they've shared so much of their lives with the world 281 00:14:27,365 --> 00:14:29,645 Speaker 1: on Netflix and with their own audience and community on 282 00:14:29,685 --> 00:14:33,165 Speaker 1: their YouTube channel. Because it's so clear that it's still 283 00:14:33,165 --> 00:14:35,605 Speaker 1: a very difficult conversation to have. I thought they might 284 00:14:35,645 --> 00:14:38,805 Speaker 1: be like, kind of bluse about it. But what you 285 00:14:38,885 --> 00:14:41,925 Speaker 1: can't see because you're listening to this is that Sam 286 00:14:41,965 --> 00:14:44,285 Speaker 1: and Nia are actually talking to me from their bedroom 287 00:14:44,525 --> 00:14:47,285 Speaker 1: while we're doing this interview. Behind them, I can see 288 00:14:47,325 --> 00:14:50,285 Speaker 1: their bed, and on the wall behind their bed is 289 00:14:50,325 --> 00:14:53,605 Speaker 1: a big blown up photograph of their family. It is 290 00:14:53,805 --> 00:14:57,365 Speaker 1: just so intimate, and I can hear their kids playing 291 00:14:57,445 --> 00:14:59,085 Speaker 1: in the background. They're not in the room, of course, 292 00:14:59,085 --> 00:15:00,845 Speaker 1: but I can hear them in another part of the house. 293 00:15:01,405 --> 00:15:04,605 Speaker 1: And what Sam is about to disclose next really does 294 00:15:04,685 --> 00:15:07,685 Speaker 1: feel like a private conversation between a husband and a 295 00:15:07,725 --> 00:15:11,645 Speaker 1: wife in the safety of their bedroom, sharing things that 296 00:15:11,685 --> 00:15:14,525 Speaker 1: they did not share on the Netflix documentary. I didn't 297 00:15:14,525 --> 00:15:20,805 Speaker 1: mean to get an exclusive, but here we are. How 298 00:15:20,845 --> 00:15:21,445 Speaker 1: far did you go? 299 00:15:22,045 --> 00:15:25,725 Speaker 2: Well, we've agreed not to talk about details. But I 300 00:15:25,765 --> 00:15:29,285 Speaker 2: had an intercourse one time physically, that was how far 301 00:15:29,285 --> 00:15:33,365 Speaker 2: I went intercourse one time with the prostitute. Emotionally, how 302 00:15:33,365 --> 00:15:35,685 Speaker 2: far I went? I kissed the girl, held her hands, 303 00:15:35,685 --> 00:15:38,205 Speaker 2: I guess that would be kind of just tell you how. 304 00:15:38,045 --> 00:15:41,005 Speaker 1: Emotionally it's kind of surreal. We're sitting here, you guys 305 00:15:41,045 --> 00:15:43,285 Speaker 1: are in your bedroom, You're talking to a stranger across 306 00:15:43,325 --> 00:15:45,205 Speaker 1: the other side of the world in Australia. We can 307 00:15:45,205 --> 00:15:48,805 Speaker 1: hear a storm in the background, which is kind of symbolic. 308 00:15:50,205 --> 00:15:53,165 Speaker 1: Your husband's sitting next to you talking about that time 309 00:15:53,205 --> 00:15:55,725 Speaker 1: he had sex. How do you feel It's. 310 00:15:55,525 --> 00:15:58,645 Speaker 3: So weird because I can I can hear these things 311 00:15:58,685 --> 00:16:01,285 Speaker 3: as facts and details that like matter for us to 312 00:16:01,325 --> 00:16:04,085 Speaker 3: get to where we are today. Of course, I mean, 313 00:16:04,445 --> 00:16:06,405 Speaker 3: it's sad. It's sad that he got there. It's sad 314 00:16:06,445 --> 00:16:09,925 Speaker 3: that our marriage went through what it went through. But 315 00:16:10,405 --> 00:16:13,285 Speaker 3: I don't see what he's saying as him. When he 316 00:16:13,325 --> 00:16:15,845 Speaker 3: says these things. I'm envisioning a version of him, And 317 00:16:16,325 --> 00:16:19,005 Speaker 3: you know, that's a beautiful thing that I can sit 318 00:16:19,165 --> 00:16:21,685 Speaker 3: next to this version of Sam and that guy is 319 00:16:21,725 --> 00:16:23,765 Speaker 3: long gone, and I'm just so thankful for that. 320 00:16:24,605 --> 00:16:28,125 Speaker 2: It still hurts her a little bit. I know it's 321 00:16:28,205 --> 00:16:30,845 Speaker 2: just facts, but every time we bring this stuff up, 322 00:16:31,165 --> 00:16:32,965 Speaker 2: it's painful for both of us. And I got to 323 00:16:33,005 --> 00:16:35,605 Speaker 2: be extra close to her after this and just kind 324 00:16:35,645 --> 00:16:37,525 Speaker 2: of remind her who I am. 325 00:16:37,405 --> 00:16:40,565 Speaker 1: In the books, Sam, You're write, infidelity doesn't add spice. 326 00:16:40,605 --> 00:16:45,845 Speaker 1: It invites chaos. Even before the data breach with Ashley Madison, 327 00:16:46,005 --> 00:16:48,485 Speaker 1: what kind of chaos was it inviting into your life? 328 00:16:48,605 --> 00:16:50,925 Speaker 2: Well, first, just covering up the lies. I think the 329 00:16:51,005 --> 00:16:53,765 Speaker 2: chaos started within myself. I was supposed to have a 330 00:16:53,765 --> 00:16:56,725 Speaker 2: relationship with the Lord and I was praying to him. 331 00:16:56,805 --> 00:16:59,125 Speaker 2: Yet I was still doing these things. And then I 332 00:16:59,165 --> 00:17:01,605 Speaker 2: got further from the Lord. That was the first chaos. 333 00:17:01,645 --> 00:17:04,365 Speaker 2: There's no order within me like that. I stopped phoning 334 00:17:04,885 --> 00:17:07,725 Speaker 2: the manual that is the Bible, and so I was 335 00:17:07,805 --> 00:17:10,565 Speaker 2: just scattered. My emotions were scattered. And then bringing that 336 00:17:10,605 --> 00:17:13,725 Speaker 2: into my marriage. I thought I could handle that outside 337 00:17:13,725 --> 00:17:16,965 Speaker 2: of my marriage, but it turns OUTNIA had suspicions for 338 00:17:17,485 --> 00:17:21,245 Speaker 2: good reasons, because you know, my personality started changing, Like 339 00:17:21,325 --> 00:17:24,925 Speaker 2: my love for her started decreasing because I was distracted 340 00:17:24,925 --> 00:17:27,165 Speaker 2: by thoughts of other women. So that chaos enter to 341 00:17:27,205 --> 00:17:29,725 Speaker 2: the home. Then I was distracted. You know, getting down 342 00:17:29,725 --> 00:17:32,245 Speaker 2: before my kids was difficult because I was so side 343 00:17:32,285 --> 00:17:36,405 Speaker 2: trackted by my sneaking life. You know, that's the chaos. 344 00:17:36,445 --> 00:17:39,805 Speaker 2: It's like people think, let me take it. 345 00:17:39,845 --> 00:17:43,045 Speaker 1: Worthy you're doing really good. It's not easy to talk 346 00:17:43,045 --> 00:17:43,805 Speaker 1: about this stuff. 347 00:17:44,165 --> 00:17:46,245 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people want freedom. They're like, 348 00:17:46,245 --> 00:17:48,445 Speaker 2: I'm want freedom for my marriage. Someone to go outside 349 00:17:48,485 --> 00:17:51,485 Speaker 2: of my marriage and seek freedom. But what I found 350 00:17:51,645 --> 00:17:55,205 Speaker 2: is I became enslaved rather than more free. And I've 351 00:17:55,325 --> 00:17:58,445 Speaker 2: started to understanding that freedom is actually just obeying the 352 00:17:58,565 --> 00:18:01,765 Speaker 2: laws of the Lord and the laws of nature, obeying 353 00:18:01,805 --> 00:18:05,125 Speaker 2: those and staying within it's confined. I explain this in 354 00:18:05,205 --> 00:18:07,165 Speaker 2: documentary that didn't make it, But I kind of look 355 00:18:07,205 --> 00:18:08,805 Speaker 2: at as like being in the swimming pool, Like if 356 00:18:08,805 --> 00:18:12,325 Speaker 2: you don't obey the laws of the water, you'll drown. 357 00:18:12,725 --> 00:18:14,725 Speaker 2: But if you do obey the roles and you swim 358 00:18:15,525 --> 00:18:19,165 Speaker 2: and you respect, it's a resistance against you. It's very 359 00:18:19,165 --> 00:18:22,285 Speaker 2: free if you can expect its boundaries. And so that's 360 00:18:22,325 --> 00:18:24,005 Speaker 2: what I've learned. And I look back and I see 361 00:18:24,005 --> 00:18:25,485 Speaker 2: that I was very much enslaved. 362 00:18:26,045 --> 00:18:29,285 Speaker 1: Yeah, tangled up in this webles lies Neor. It's interesting 363 00:18:29,405 --> 00:18:32,885 Speaker 1: he mentioned that you was suspicious looking back at that time, 364 00:18:33,765 --> 00:18:36,165 Speaker 1: Were you suspicious? Did you think maybe there was someone 365 00:18:36,245 --> 00:18:37,725 Speaker 1: else so that he was fooling around? 366 00:18:38,245 --> 00:18:41,565 Speaker 3: Yes? Multiple times. A few times, like spot on, I 367 00:18:41,565 --> 00:18:44,085 Speaker 3: would specifically say, I think maybe you did this, or 368 00:18:44,085 --> 00:18:47,165 Speaker 3: I think maybe you are getting too close to this person, 369 00:18:47,245 --> 00:18:50,285 Speaker 3: I mean, spot on, and you would convince me that 370 00:18:50,325 --> 00:18:52,605 Speaker 3: I was wrong or that I was you know, yeah, 371 00:18:52,725 --> 00:18:55,965 Speaker 3: find my imagination. And of course, like we still had 372 00:18:56,365 --> 00:18:59,645 Speaker 3: a good relationship for the most part, you know, and 373 00:19:00,205 --> 00:19:02,165 Speaker 3: it was easy to believe it if he's you know, 374 00:19:02,245 --> 00:19:04,445 Speaker 3: convincing me and stuff. It was easy to convince myself 375 00:19:04,525 --> 00:19:07,245 Speaker 3: because I would list out the things that were going 376 00:19:07,325 --> 00:19:10,565 Speaker 3: well and kind of Okay, he couldn't be doing that 377 00:19:10,645 --> 00:19:12,165 Speaker 3: because x y Z. 378 00:19:12,725 --> 00:19:15,845 Speaker 1: What were our x y z out of interest? What 379 00:19:15,885 --> 00:19:18,085 Speaker 1: were the things that were going well that made you think, oh, well, 380 00:19:18,085 --> 00:19:20,645 Speaker 1: he couldn't be having an effect because these things. 381 00:19:20,565 --> 00:19:23,765 Speaker 3: Well like for starters, going to church with me and 382 00:19:23,845 --> 00:19:27,925 Speaker 3: our daughter, sleeping with me, being intimate with me, kissing me, 383 00:19:28,485 --> 00:19:30,605 Speaker 3: not just like randomly either, I mean we had like 384 00:19:31,405 --> 00:19:34,725 Speaker 3: one specific time that he had betrayed me. The evening 385 00:19:34,725 --> 00:19:37,685 Speaker 3: he'd come home and we had like a really sweet moment. 386 00:19:37,685 --> 00:19:39,805 Speaker 3: I sat in his lap, we looked at some stuff together, 387 00:19:39,965 --> 00:19:42,605 Speaker 3: we cuddled, and he had just been out with another woman. 388 00:19:42,725 --> 00:19:46,125 Speaker 3: Like it's strange and I don't understand it, but in 389 00:19:46,165 --> 00:19:48,165 Speaker 3: the moment when he confessed everything to me, I thought 390 00:19:48,205 --> 00:19:50,285 Speaker 3: everything was a lie, nothing had ever been real. But 391 00:19:50,325 --> 00:19:51,645 Speaker 3: now that I'm on the other side of it, I 392 00:19:51,685 --> 00:19:54,725 Speaker 3: can look at those and see how conflicted and just 393 00:19:54,765 --> 00:19:57,485 Speaker 3: like torn he I mean, I would have felt really 394 00:19:57,525 --> 00:19:59,925 Speaker 3: torn and conflicted just looking back at the pattern that 395 00:19:59,965 --> 00:20:01,525 Speaker 3: we had, Like those are some of the things we 396 00:20:01,565 --> 00:20:03,085 Speaker 3: still had closeness. 397 00:20:02,565 --> 00:20:06,405 Speaker 2: And fun I'm remembering, like during that time he was 398 00:20:06,445 --> 00:20:09,245 Speaker 2: suspicious and I was able to still love on her 399 00:20:09,405 --> 00:20:12,205 Speaker 2: and accept her love. I feel like it was probably 400 00:20:12,365 --> 00:20:14,365 Speaker 2: just like she was kind of my comfort, Like there 401 00:20:14,405 --> 00:20:17,605 Speaker 2: was chaos in those affairs outside of my marriage, Like 402 00:20:17,645 --> 00:20:20,925 Speaker 2: there's complications, you know, and you know, stupid things that 403 00:20:20,925 --> 00:20:22,845 Speaker 2: they were doing, or they decided not to talk to 404 00:20:22,885 --> 00:20:26,565 Speaker 2: me anymore or whatever that was kind of hurting me 405 00:20:26,725 --> 00:20:29,405 Speaker 2: or whatever. I hate this like that, I hate talking 406 00:20:29,405 --> 00:20:32,245 Speaker 2: about this. So that loud but Nia was my comfort 407 00:20:32,325 --> 00:20:34,605 Speaker 2: during that chaos outside of my marriage. 408 00:20:34,965 --> 00:20:37,085 Speaker 1: Nia. Sam found out that his name was in the 409 00:20:37,085 --> 00:20:39,045 Speaker 1: Ashley Madison Lake while the two of you were in 410 00:20:39,045 --> 00:20:42,005 Speaker 1: Seattle for a really important conference feel of logging career. 411 00:20:42,405 --> 00:20:45,205 Speaker 1: You just sat down for lunch and Sam dropped the bomb. 412 00:20:45,605 --> 00:20:47,125 Speaker 1: What do you remember of that moment? 413 00:20:47,805 --> 00:20:50,085 Speaker 3: I know, this is like a comical aspect of it. 414 00:20:50,085 --> 00:20:52,765 Speaker 3: But I was so hungry. I'm not eaten all day long, 415 00:20:52,845 --> 00:20:53,245 Speaker 3: and I. 416 00:20:53,205 --> 00:20:55,125 Speaker 1: Was like hungry, you're pregnant. 417 00:20:55,405 --> 00:20:58,405 Speaker 3: I wasn't, but I had just I just was no 418 00:20:58,645 --> 00:20:59,645 Speaker 3: I had just miscarried. 419 00:21:00,005 --> 00:21:01,565 Speaker 2: You also just had dental word had. 420 00:21:01,525 --> 00:21:03,965 Speaker 3: Dental work done. I had it all day long, and 421 00:21:04,005 --> 00:21:05,845 Speaker 3: I just I was just hungry, like you know, just 422 00:21:05,845 --> 00:21:07,685 Speaker 3: we had no kids. Rarely did I eat a meal 423 00:21:07,725 --> 00:21:10,165 Speaker 3: without children. I was looking for or to just like 424 00:21:10,365 --> 00:21:13,365 Speaker 3: having a good meal with my husband. So there's that 425 00:21:13,525 --> 00:21:16,245 Speaker 3: aspect of it, and I like really remember just like that, 426 00:21:16,845 --> 00:21:19,685 Speaker 3: and then just sitting down and almost immediately he's just 427 00:21:19,725 --> 00:21:24,445 Speaker 3: so intensely telling me this shocking news and embarrassing news. 428 00:21:24,485 --> 00:21:27,645 Speaker 3: It wasn't just the shock of like I did this 429 00:21:27,845 --> 00:21:29,965 Speaker 3: or I tried to have an affair. It wasn't just that. 430 00:21:30,005 --> 00:21:32,805 Speaker 3: It was like layered with embarrassment because of how public 431 00:21:32,805 --> 00:21:36,885 Speaker 3: it was, and then also the minimizing that happened in 432 00:21:36,885 --> 00:21:40,365 Speaker 3: the moment of like angry crushed. But let's try to 433 00:21:40,365 --> 00:21:41,525 Speaker 3: like let me think, let me try to wrap my 434 00:21:41,565 --> 00:21:43,885 Speaker 3: head around it. It was just a lot in one moment. 435 00:21:44,205 --> 00:21:46,685 Speaker 1: Did you think about going home, like you had to 436 00:21:46,685 --> 00:21:48,405 Speaker 1: go and turn up at this conference. It was all 437 00:21:48,445 --> 00:21:50,565 Speaker 1: over the internet. You had to be in front of people. 438 00:21:51,045 --> 00:21:54,125 Speaker 2: I did. I wanted her to go back home with me. 439 00:21:54,445 --> 00:21:54,925 Speaker 2: She wouldn't. 440 00:21:55,085 --> 00:21:56,925 Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't want to go home. I mean like 441 00:21:57,165 --> 00:21:59,485 Speaker 3: this was like a getaway. We were getting away without 442 00:21:59,525 --> 00:22:03,325 Speaker 3: the children for a weekend, and this was an opportunity 443 00:22:03,525 --> 00:22:07,085 Speaker 3: like for our YouTube career. This is like a huge 444 00:22:07,085 --> 00:22:08,885 Speaker 3: deal to me. This was something like we were invited 445 00:22:08,885 --> 00:22:11,165 Speaker 3: to be a part of this crew of creators that 446 00:22:11,165 --> 00:22:12,965 Speaker 3: had been around for a while and in the space 447 00:22:13,045 --> 00:22:15,205 Speaker 3: way longer than we had been. Like, you know, in 448 00:22:15,205 --> 00:22:16,965 Speaker 3: a way, it's like we don't really belong, but here 449 00:22:17,005 --> 00:22:17,285 Speaker 3: we are. 450 00:22:17,565 --> 00:22:17,765 Speaker 1: You know. 451 00:22:18,605 --> 00:22:21,085 Speaker 3: No, I wanted to go and I thought, to some degree, 452 00:22:21,085 --> 00:22:23,245 Speaker 3: I wanted him to face everybody. I like, I was 453 00:22:23,285 --> 00:22:26,325 Speaker 3: embarrassed and mad, and I thought, no, you go face 454 00:22:26,365 --> 00:22:26,925 Speaker 3: this together. 455 00:22:27,685 --> 00:22:30,605 Speaker 1: Sat that apology video that you did soon after then 456 00:22:30,645 --> 00:22:33,245 Speaker 1: everyone was, you know, screaming at you to make and 457 00:22:33,405 --> 00:22:35,165 Speaker 1: kind of you needed to make some kind of comment. 458 00:22:36,405 --> 00:22:41,765 Speaker 1: You looked terrified in that video. Yeah, what was going 459 00:22:41,805 --> 00:22:42,565 Speaker 1: through your mind? 460 00:22:43,405 --> 00:22:46,365 Speaker 2: I was just in self preservation mode. It was like 461 00:22:46,405 --> 00:22:50,565 Speaker 2: it's time to survive, and gosh, I did whatever it took. 462 00:22:50,605 --> 00:22:57,045 Speaker 2: I was extremely anxious, sweaty palms, extremely like snappy at nia. 463 00:22:57,765 --> 00:22:59,885 Speaker 2: It's like, we got to get this done. We had 464 00:22:59,885 --> 00:23:03,165 Speaker 2: to do several takes. I was feeling pressure from my audience, 465 00:23:03,605 --> 00:23:07,045 Speaker 2: from my family, even family I haven't heard from, was like, 466 00:23:07,205 --> 00:23:08,965 Speaker 2: hurry up and get a statement out there. People want 467 00:23:09,045 --> 00:23:11,485 Speaker 2: to know this, So I say, okay, I'll just tell 468 00:23:11,525 --> 00:23:13,965 Speaker 2: them what they probably want to hear, and of course 469 00:23:14,005 --> 00:23:15,365 Speaker 2: what I wanted them to hear. 470 00:23:15,765 --> 00:23:16,245 Speaker 3: Yeah. 471 00:23:16,645 --> 00:23:18,365 Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting that the name that you 472 00:23:18,445 --> 00:23:21,965 Speaker 1: chose on Ashley Madison, which was dirty little Secret Man. 473 00:23:22,205 --> 00:23:24,685 Speaker 1: There's a lot of self loathing in that in that name, 474 00:23:25,085 --> 00:23:25,525 Speaker 1: isn't there. 475 00:23:27,965 --> 00:23:33,685 Speaker 2: Absolutely that's hilarious. Yeah, is dirty little Yeah. 476 00:23:33,725 --> 00:23:35,605 Speaker 1: It feels like you were not very proud of who 477 00:23:35,685 --> 00:23:37,645 Speaker 1: you were, even at the time you knew that you 478 00:23:37,685 --> 00:23:38,685 Speaker 1: were doing the wrong thing. 479 00:23:39,005 --> 00:23:42,605 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I mean, that's a great point. I actually 480 00:23:42,685 --> 00:23:44,285 Speaker 2: never thought about that, but yeah, I was in a 481 00:23:44,325 --> 00:23:47,085 Speaker 2: place where I knew what I was doing. You're right. 482 00:23:47,685 --> 00:23:50,765 Speaker 1: Yeah, There's two types of reactions after you hear that 483 00:23:50,885 --> 00:23:54,725 Speaker 1: someone's been unfaithful. One is to not want to talk 484 00:23:54,725 --> 00:23:57,965 Speaker 1: about it, and the other is to want every single 485 00:23:58,085 --> 00:24:00,325 Speaker 1: detail in a bid to try and process it. 486 00:24:01,085 --> 00:24:05,245 Speaker 3: Which were you every single detail. I wanted all of 487 00:24:05,285 --> 00:24:07,925 Speaker 3: the information down to what socks he wore, Like, I 488 00:24:07,965 --> 00:24:10,885 Speaker 3: wanted to know every single thing I could possibly get 489 00:24:10,885 --> 00:24:11,365 Speaker 3: my hands on. 490 00:24:11,885 --> 00:24:17,445 Speaker 2: And that was extremely extremely painful and exhausting. Sorry, I'm 491 00:24:17,445 --> 00:24:19,925 Speaker 2: not turn point out. For both of us. It was 492 00:24:20,045 --> 00:24:22,445 Speaker 2: just like, it's such a painful process because it was 493 00:24:22,485 --> 00:24:26,205 Speaker 2: just like just kept revisiting it over and over for months, 494 00:24:26,205 --> 00:24:29,405 Speaker 2: and then it was just yeah, a lot of questions. 495 00:24:30,085 --> 00:24:33,005 Speaker 1: Nia, what a rollercoaster for you? It almost made me 496 00:24:33,005 --> 00:24:35,765 Speaker 1: think when I was here reading the Book of Labor, 497 00:24:35,925 --> 00:24:37,925 Speaker 1: you know, like when you have contractions and it's like 498 00:24:37,965 --> 00:24:40,285 Speaker 1: there's another one coming, and another one coming, and another 499 00:24:40,325 --> 00:24:43,525 Speaker 1: one coming, and each time it crushes you. Like each 500 00:24:43,565 --> 00:24:47,085 Speaker 1: time you heard a new detail from Sam, you started 501 00:24:47,085 --> 00:24:50,925 Speaker 1: that cycle of anger, I imagine, and betrayal again. How 502 00:24:50,925 --> 00:24:53,045 Speaker 1: long did it go on for? And what were the 503 00:24:53,085 --> 00:24:56,325 Speaker 1: worst things that he told you? In terms of the 504 00:24:56,405 --> 00:24:57,965 Speaker 1: things that hurt the most. You don't have to be 505 00:24:58,045 --> 00:25:00,765 Speaker 1: specific about, but like the types of things. 506 00:25:01,245 --> 00:25:03,645 Speaker 3: He really thought the physical things that he did were 507 00:25:03,645 --> 00:25:05,205 Speaker 3: going to be the most painful, and he said it 508 00:25:05,285 --> 00:25:07,485 Speaker 3: even I'm going to start with the worst and I'll 509 00:25:07,725 --> 00:25:10,445 Speaker 3: work my way down the list. But really the most 510 00:25:10,445 --> 00:25:13,925 Speaker 3: painful ones were actually the things he considered the lowest 511 00:25:14,085 --> 00:25:16,205 Speaker 3: things on the list. The very last couple of things 512 00:25:16,245 --> 00:25:19,085 Speaker 3: he confessed to me were just emotional things that didn't 513 00:25:19,165 --> 00:25:22,245 Speaker 3: really go anywhere. You know, one was just him pursuing 514 00:25:22,245 --> 00:25:24,685 Speaker 3: someone that didn't even reciprocate. Those hurt the worst. 515 00:25:25,245 --> 00:25:26,485 Speaker 1: That was your friend, right. 516 00:25:26,645 --> 00:25:29,165 Speaker 3: Yes, I don't know if it was the friend aspect, 517 00:25:29,405 --> 00:25:31,245 Speaker 3: of course that plays a part in it, but I 518 00:25:31,845 --> 00:25:34,685 Speaker 3: don't know if maybe the emotional part too, Like that 519 00:25:34,845 --> 00:25:36,565 Speaker 3: was really really hard for me. I think I could 520 00:25:36,645 --> 00:25:39,165 Speaker 3: kind of wrap my head around like sexual fantasies and stuff, 521 00:25:39,205 --> 00:25:42,845 Speaker 3: but our love was so strong, and you know, if 522 00:25:42,885 --> 00:25:46,045 Speaker 3: he had a pornography addiction or sexual fantasies, I felt 523 00:25:46,085 --> 00:25:48,565 Speaker 3: like I could logically get my head wrapped around that. 524 00:25:48,605 --> 00:25:50,365 Speaker 3: But it was when his heart got brought into it 525 00:25:50,405 --> 00:25:53,605 Speaker 3: where I really couldn't. I really struggled with that, like 526 00:25:53,645 --> 00:25:56,085 Speaker 3: trying to make sense of it why I came there. 527 00:25:56,725 --> 00:26:00,085 Speaker 3: So yeah, I would say maybe two months before the 528 00:26:00,285 --> 00:26:03,445 Speaker 3: end of all the past confessions were out because he 529 00:26:03,485 --> 00:26:05,565 Speaker 3: would just remember them, like he just said, he would 530 00:26:05,565 --> 00:26:08,445 Speaker 3: just a memory would come to him and he would 531 00:26:08,525 --> 00:26:10,365 Speaker 3: just tell me, you know, sometimes out of nowhere, and 532 00:26:10,405 --> 00:26:13,765 Speaker 3: sometimes you would say, hey, I have something to tell 533 00:26:13,805 --> 00:26:14,565 Speaker 3: you were. 534 00:26:14,445 --> 00:26:16,605 Speaker 1: Used to living together through all of this. Did you 535 00:26:16,645 --> 00:26:19,245 Speaker 1: move out? Sam? Did you move Outnia? Like? How close 536 00:26:19,285 --> 00:26:20,205 Speaker 1: did you get to divorce? 537 00:26:20,565 --> 00:26:23,645 Speaker 2: Yeah? I was kicked out of the house. Yeah, I 538 00:26:23,645 --> 00:26:27,005 Speaker 2: mean and respectfully left. Obviously I didn't exactly get kicked out, 539 00:26:27,045 --> 00:26:30,405 Speaker 2: but respectfully left because you didn't want me around. I 540 00:26:30,485 --> 00:26:33,805 Speaker 2: stayed at my pastor's house for a week. Yeah, and 541 00:26:33,845 --> 00:26:35,605 Speaker 2: then once I got back in the house, I stayed 542 00:26:35,605 --> 00:26:36,645 Speaker 2: in a different bedroom. 543 00:26:37,205 --> 00:26:38,525 Speaker 1: Did you think about divorce? Nia? 544 00:26:38,925 --> 00:26:40,965 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, in the beginning, the early days, it was 545 00:26:41,085 --> 00:26:43,165 Speaker 3: convinced like we were getting a divorce. There was no 546 00:26:43,245 --> 00:26:44,125 Speaker 3: other way around it. 547 00:26:44,285 --> 00:26:47,565 Speaker 1: What about you, Sam, divorce? Yeah? Did you think it 548 00:26:47,645 --> 00:26:49,485 Speaker 1: was on the cards? Did you want it? Did you 549 00:26:49,525 --> 00:26:53,125 Speaker 1: want to be free to go and pursue these other relationships? 550 00:26:53,565 --> 00:26:56,365 Speaker 2: No, my end, I never ever felt like I am 551 00:26:56,525 --> 00:26:59,845 Speaker 2: right to consider divorce. But yeah, I was definitely nervous 552 00:26:59,885 --> 00:27:01,045 Speaker 2: that Nia would choose to leave me. 553 00:27:01,565 --> 00:27:03,525 Speaker 1: Was there a moment where you went, you know what, 554 00:27:03,645 --> 00:27:06,485 Speaker 1: I can actually see a future for us. I think 555 00:27:06,525 --> 00:27:07,325 Speaker 1: we can get through this. 556 00:27:08,325 --> 00:27:12,285 Speaker 3: Yes. I had a very clear moment actually before he 557 00:27:12,365 --> 00:27:15,925 Speaker 3: ever confessed anything to me. I just knew that the 558 00:27:16,005 --> 00:27:18,525 Speaker 3: Lord had told me we would be in marriage ministry 559 00:27:18,525 --> 00:27:20,525 Speaker 3: one day, and I came home and told him, And 560 00:27:20,965 --> 00:27:23,285 Speaker 3: looking back now, his reaction to me telling him that 561 00:27:23,365 --> 00:27:24,965 Speaker 3: was kind of like telling. 562 00:27:25,125 --> 00:27:26,365 Speaker 1: What's marriage ministry? 563 00:27:26,805 --> 00:27:29,525 Speaker 3: Talking with and helping and sitting across from other couples, 564 00:27:29,605 --> 00:27:31,885 Speaker 3: like just being in the marriage space within our church, 565 00:27:31,965 --> 00:27:35,925 Speaker 3: within a church community, and just being available to support 566 00:27:36,125 --> 00:27:39,725 Speaker 3: other couples. And we had not gone through anything hard 567 00:27:39,765 --> 00:27:42,765 Speaker 3: at that time when I had that moment. So fast 568 00:27:42,845 --> 00:27:45,045 Speaker 3: forward to he's confessed everything to me and I told 569 00:27:45,125 --> 00:27:48,205 Speaker 3: him I want to divorce him. I was sitting in 570 00:27:48,205 --> 00:27:52,725 Speaker 3: the car again, praying, just literally praying, could you just 571 00:27:52,805 --> 00:27:54,765 Speaker 3: tell me yes or no? Like spell it out. I 572 00:27:54,805 --> 00:27:57,325 Speaker 3: was very like a child praying. And I had that 573 00:27:57,405 --> 00:28:00,685 Speaker 3: memory of before he ever confessed anything to me, where 574 00:28:00,685 --> 00:28:03,965 Speaker 3: we were reaching other couples and supporting other couples. But 575 00:28:04,045 --> 00:28:06,245 Speaker 3: that was the moment where I said I'm going to 576 00:28:06,285 --> 00:28:08,365 Speaker 3: stay and I'm going to fight. And I didn't feel 577 00:28:08,365 --> 00:28:11,605 Speaker 3: it yet, you know, I didn't feel like we're going 578 00:28:11,685 --> 00:28:14,205 Speaker 3: to be happy. I even thought I might be unhappily 579 00:28:14,245 --> 00:28:17,245 Speaker 3: married to him for a long time. I'm going to 580 00:28:17,285 --> 00:28:18,405 Speaker 3: work towards forgiveness. 581 00:28:18,845 --> 00:28:20,045 Speaker 1: How do you build trust back? 582 00:28:20,525 --> 00:28:23,685 Speaker 2: That took a long time, but it started with the 583 00:28:23,725 --> 00:28:27,085 Speaker 2: confessions and being as open to her as possible, so 584 00:28:27,245 --> 00:28:31,005 Speaker 2: she saw that nothing to hide and anything she asked 585 00:28:31,565 --> 00:28:35,565 Speaker 2: answering those questions honestly, and when she saw like me 586 00:28:35,805 --> 00:28:40,405 Speaker 2: answering those questions that were bringing myself pain basically torturing 587 00:28:40,405 --> 00:28:44,565 Speaker 2: myself by expressing so much about myself, That's where it starts. 588 00:28:45,205 --> 00:28:48,405 Speaker 2: And then after that, letting her call the shots basically 589 00:28:49,085 --> 00:28:51,165 Speaker 2: of my life, letting her kind of just tell me 590 00:28:51,245 --> 00:28:53,645 Speaker 2: what she's comfortable and what she's not comfortable with, and 591 00:28:53,805 --> 00:28:57,765 Speaker 2: just allowing and not fighting it even if I don't 592 00:28:57,845 --> 00:29:00,085 Speaker 2: understand it. She doesn't want me to do this, She 593 00:29:00,125 --> 00:29:03,165 Speaker 2: doesn't want me talking to this guy anymore. But I'd 594 00:29:03,165 --> 00:29:06,485 Speaker 2: actually never done anything with that guy, but she still 595 00:29:06,485 --> 00:29:08,125 Speaker 2: doesn't want me talking to him. So I was like, Okay, 596 00:29:08,125 --> 00:29:11,445 Speaker 2: I can't talk to anymore. Things like that, and setting 597 00:29:11,525 --> 00:29:15,765 Speaker 2: big boundaries and sticking to them, for example, not talking 598 00:29:15,765 --> 00:29:19,245 Speaker 2: to women alone, texting women, staying out at night, going 599 00:29:19,245 --> 00:29:22,525 Speaker 2: out with certain people, or actually only going out with 600 00:29:23,005 --> 00:29:28,285 Speaker 2: solid Christian men. Just really strict boundaries and think all that. 601 00:29:30,645 --> 00:29:32,965 Speaker 1: If you've ever been cheated on or had a big 602 00:29:33,005 --> 00:29:36,965 Speaker 1: betrayal in your relationship, and forgiveness or staying together wasn't 603 00:29:36,965 --> 00:29:40,045 Speaker 1: an option. It might be confronting to hear that Nia 604 00:29:40,165 --> 00:29:44,645 Speaker 1: chose to forgive Sam after so much emotional and physical unfaithfulness. 605 00:29:45,005 --> 00:29:47,925 Speaker 1: A lot of people got really angry, interestingly, not just 606 00:29:47,965 --> 00:29:50,925 Speaker 1: at him, but at her. And maybe you're someone who 607 00:29:50,965 --> 00:29:53,045 Speaker 1: has religion in your life and you draw from that 608 00:29:53,285 --> 00:29:56,445 Speaker 1: well for your value system like they do. Well, maybe 609 00:29:56,445 --> 00:29:58,565 Speaker 1: you aren't a religious person, and some of Sam and 610 00:29:58,645 --> 00:30:01,405 Speaker 1: Nia's ways of making sense of what they've been through 611 00:30:02,005 --> 00:30:05,085 Speaker 1: aren't as relatable to you. But there's a whole layer 612 00:30:05,085 --> 00:30:07,645 Speaker 1: to Sam and Nia's backstory that you're about to hear. 613 00:30:07,685 --> 00:30:10,845 Speaker 1: That for me, really explained a lot about why they 614 00:30:10,885 --> 00:30:14,325 Speaker 1: both fought so hard for their marriage and their family, 615 00:30:14,565 --> 00:30:17,925 Speaker 1: and also how they approached the fact that Sam had 616 00:30:17,925 --> 00:30:23,725 Speaker 1: betrayed Nea. What I found really interesting to learn. Ni, 617 00:30:23,925 --> 00:30:26,445 Speaker 1: You've got an incredible story which could be an episode 618 00:30:26,485 --> 00:30:30,285 Speaker 1: all onto itself, but the fact that you tragically lost 619 00:30:30,285 --> 00:30:33,765 Speaker 1: your mother when you were just three. She was involved 620 00:30:33,805 --> 00:30:36,565 Speaker 1: in drugs. She sounds like she was an amazing person. 621 00:30:36,725 --> 00:30:41,885 Speaker 1: She followed bands around. Your biological father was in a 622 00:30:41,925 --> 00:30:44,085 Speaker 1: band or in a rock star or something. Did you 623 00:30:44,125 --> 00:30:46,205 Speaker 1: ever find out who he was? Did you ever meet him? 624 00:30:46,565 --> 00:30:49,005 Speaker 3: I've never met him, but yes, I'm aware of who 625 00:30:49,005 --> 00:30:49,365 Speaker 3: he is. 626 00:30:50,205 --> 00:30:52,645 Speaker 1: And you were raised by your grandparents from the age 627 00:30:52,685 --> 00:30:55,365 Speaker 1: of three, who you came to call mom and dad, 628 00:30:56,165 --> 00:30:59,165 Speaker 1: and their marriage broke up due to infidelity when you 629 00:30:59,205 --> 00:31:03,845 Speaker 1: were a kid, and Sam, you had not a dissimilar experience. 630 00:31:03,965 --> 00:31:06,925 Speaker 1: Your father left your mum for another woman when you 631 00:31:07,005 --> 00:31:10,925 Speaker 1: and your brothers were quite young as well. How did 632 00:31:10,965 --> 00:31:13,405 Speaker 1: that shape both of your view of marriage because you 633 00:31:13,445 --> 00:31:15,805 Speaker 1: got together quite young, you were only fifteen, How did 634 00:31:15,805 --> 00:31:18,285 Speaker 1: that shape your view of marriage and what you were 635 00:31:18,325 --> 00:31:19,805 Speaker 1: looking for in a partner. 636 00:31:20,365 --> 00:31:22,765 Speaker 3: Just gave me a really clear vision of what I 637 00:31:22,805 --> 00:31:25,685 Speaker 3: wanted and what I didn't want really early on. I mean, 638 00:31:25,725 --> 00:31:29,325 Speaker 3: I didn't want someone who drank or you know, partied 639 00:31:29,445 --> 00:31:31,845 Speaker 3: or lived the kind of lifestyle that I saw within 640 00:31:32,285 --> 00:31:34,725 Speaker 3: the marriages that I saw break apart as a young child. 641 00:31:35,365 --> 00:31:39,125 Speaker 3: And also like informed me of like what I did want, 642 00:31:39,165 --> 00:31:42,845 Speaker 3: which was a Christian man who had strong morals, was kind. 643 00:31:43,445 --> 00:31:45,365 Speaker 3: Showed me what I wanted and what I didn't want, 644 00:31:45,445 --> 00:31:48,045 Speaker 3: and I stuck really hard to it. I think, I mean, 645 00:31:48,085 --> 00:31:48,605 Speaker 3: I was so young. 646 00:31:48,725 --> 00:31:51,445 Speaker 1: But you know, Sam, what about you? It must have 647 00:31:51,525 --> 00:31:54,885 Speaker 1: hurt you terribly, saying how your mom suffered after your 648 00:31:54,965 --> 00:31:58,285 Speaker 1: dad chaded and then left. Did that make you think 649 00:31:58,325 --> 00:31:59,765 Speaker 1: about marriage when you got older? 650 00:32:00,085 --> 00:32:02,925 Speaker 2: Yeah, at the time, I feel like I probably mostly didn't. 651 00:32:03,205 --> 00:32:05,725 Speaker 2: Wasn't very observant of it. I don't have much recollection 652 00:32:05,765 --> 00:32:07,685 Speaker 2: of too much of it. Probably blocked a lot of 653 00:32:07,685 --> 00:32:11,525 Speaker 2: it out. I never saw like an intimate relationship between 654 00:32:11,525 --> 00:32:14,685 Speaker 2: my mom and dad, but for some reason, the fights 655 00:32:14,765 --> 00:32:17,605 Speaker 2: kind of stick out. My dad's temper stands out. He 656 00:32:17,725 --> 00:32:19,645 Speaker 2: was a good man, but for some reason those stand out. 657 00:32:20,725 --> 00:32:23,565 Speaker 2: He was a good mind until he left. He was 658 00:32:23,605 --> 00:32:26,285 Speaker 2: talking to another woman. I basically saw him do it. 659 00:32:26,325 --> 00:32:28,605 Speaker 2: He took me to the woman's house. We get back home. 660 00:32:28,965 --> 00:32:30,925 Speaker 2: My mom asked me what we did on the way home, 661 00:32:31,285 --> 00:32:33,405 Speaker 2: and I confessed to her what had happened, because I 662 00:32:33,445 --> 00:32:35,685 Speaker 2: felt guilty myself just being a part of it. 663 00:32:36,125 --> 00:32:39,725 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was an extraordinary betrayal, him taking you kids 664 00:32:39,765 --> 00:32:43,405 Speaker 1: to that woman's home. You got together really young, you too, 665 00:32:43,565 --> 00:32:47,245 Speaker 1: You're only fifteen. What was that like? Was it tempting? 666 00:32:47,325 --> 00:32:49,885 Speaker 1: Were you both still very much of your faith? 667 00:32:50,245 --> 00:32:52,365 Speaker 3: We both had really strong morals. And that's one thing 668 00:32:52,405 --> 00:32:55,005 Speaker 3: that drew us together. We used to do little Bible 669 00:32:55,045 --> 00:32:59,885 Speaker 3: studies together, we prayed together. We worked hard to be 670 00:32:59,925 --> 00:33:03,045 Speaker 3: pure before marriage. I say we worked hard, but that 671 00:33:03,125 --> 00:33:04,885 Speaker 3: was a big, a big topic for us that we 672 00:33:04,965 --> 00:33:07,485 Speaker 3: tried to like overcome it, you know. But it was 673 00:33:07,525 --> 00:33:09,685 Speaker 3: also like I don't know, for me all so like 674 00:33:09,725 --> 00:33:13,285 Speaker 3: fireworks and rainbows and butterflies, like it was so magical 675 00:33:13,325 --> 00:33:16,165 Speaker 3: and like a movie kind of love in the beginning. 676 00:33:16,405 --> 00:33:18,245 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know all the way through a 677 00:33:18,365 --> 00:33:19,285 Speaker 3: partner ever went away. 678 00:33:19,765 --> 00:33:23,205 Speaker 1: Sam, did you imagine that you would marry the first 679 00:33:23,285 --> 00:33:25,485 Speaker 1: woman that you were intimate with? Was that the plan 680 00:33:25,965 --> 00:33:26,845 Speaker 1: was that important to you? 681 00:33:27,205 --> 00:33:30,725 Speaker 2: So all my friends they were out partying, having sex 682 00:33:30,765 --> 00:33:34,285 Speaker 2: with multiple women, trying to get me and looking at pornography. 683 00:33:34,445 --> 00:33:37,925 Speaker 2: They basically introduced me to pornography. But yeah, I was 684 00:33:38,005 --> 00:33:42,005 Speaker 2: adamant about saving my virginity for marriage. And then I 685 00:33:42,045 --> 00:33:45,445 Speaker 2: met Nia and she had all the same morals as myself, 686 00:33:45,525 --> 00:33:47,925 Speaker 2: and like she said, I saw what I didn't want 687 00:33:48,565 --> 00:33:50,965 Speaker 2: when I got older and my mom and dad, I 688 00:33:51,005 --> 00:33:52,525 Speaker 2: didn't want that for my family. 689 00:33:53,365 --> 00:33:56,645 Speaker 1: We know so much more about childhood trauma than cycles 690 00:33:56,645 --> 00:34:00,125 Speaker 1: of behavior in families that get passed down through generations, 691 00:34:00,405 --> 00:34:03,445 Speaker 1: and we also know that everyone reacts differently to trauma 692 00:34:03,525 --> 00:34:07,445 Speaker 1: to betrayal. For Nia, she remained really steadfast in her 693 00:34:07,525 --> 00:34:11,125 Speaker 1: determination to break that cycle of infidelity and family are 694 00:34:11,165 --> 00:34:15,325 Speaker 1: people that she'd experienced. But Sam, like so many people do, 695 00:34:15,605 --> 00:34:19,125 Speaker 1: found himself repeating it so much so that when he 696 00:34:19,205 --> 00:34:22,085 Speaker 1: was at the kind of lowest low of his cheating, 697 00:34:22,765 --> 00:34:25,325 Speaker 1: he shared his secret with his dad in the same 698 00:34:25,365 --> 00:34:27,845 Speaker 1: way that his dad had with him when he was 699 00:34:27,925 --> 00:34:28,565 Speaker 1: just a child. 700 00:34:32,285 --> 00:34:34,725 Speaker 2: And I actually I didn never mention this in the book, 701 00:34:34,765 --> 00:34:37,485 Speaker 2: and I feel like I want to. Somehow, I kind 702 00:34:37,485 --> 00:34:39,925 Speaker 2: of introduced him to one of them, one of the 703 00:34:39,965 --> 00:34:42,045 Speaker 2: women I was having affair with when we were married 704 00:34:42,125 --> 00:34:47,525 Speaker 2: as an adult, and I kind of felt like, oh, yeah, 705 00:34:47,725 --> 00:34:49,485 Speaker 2: right on, cue. 706 00:34:49,285 --> 00:34:53,285 Speaker 1: That's wild. You guys have got a very direct line 707 00:34:53,285 --> 00:34:57,725 Speaker 1: to God. It feels I feel I didn't realize he 708 00:34:57,765 --> 00:35:02,005 Speaker 1: was going to join in on this interview with some punctuation, 709 00:35:02,645 --> 00:35:03,365 Speaker 1: and I felt like. 710 00:35:03,285 --> 00:35:05,645 Speaker 2: My dad was going to be proud. I remember that 711 00:35:05,685 --> 00:35:08,645 Speaker 2: feeling like I thought he would be proud. Oh wow. 712 00:35:08,765 --> 00:35:11,205 Speaker 2: It was such a stupid things, such an immature thought 713 00:35:11,245 --> 00:35:13,245 Speaker 2: as an adult to have that my dad would like, 714 00:35:13,245 --> 00:35:16,365 Speaker 2: Oh cool, you got women outside of your marriage. 715 00:35:16,485 --> 00:35:17,525 Speaker 1: What did he say to you? 716 00:35:17,965 --> 00:35:20,325 Speaker 2: He didn't say much, but he wrote Nia an email 717 00:35:20,565 --> 00:35:22,565 Speaker 2: and this is all new information. We've never ever talked 718 00:35:22,565 --> 00:35:24,365 Speaker 2: about this. Yeah, this is all kind of. 719 00:35:24,245 --> 00:35:26,285 Speaker 3: Hard to talk about because he's not with us anymore 720 00:35:26,285 --> 00:35:26,765 Speaker 3: and on them. 721 00:35:26,765 --> 00:35:28,885 Speaker 2: But yeah, he was looking out for me. He knew 722 00:35:29,405 --> 00:35:29,765 Speaker 2: he was. 723 00:35:29,845 --> 00:35:31,925 Speaker 3: And it didn't go very well because I didn't receive 724 00:35:31,965 --> 00:35:33,285 Speaker 3: the information very well. 725 00:35:33,365 --> 00:35:35,205 Speaker 1: Do you mean that he wrote you and email Niya 726 00:35:35,485 --> 00:35:37,125 Speaker 1: telling you what Sam was doing? 727 00:35:37,525 --> 00:35:41,605 Speaker 3: Well, maybe just saying I think Sam could be getting curious. 728 00:35:41,605 --> 00:35:42,685 Speaker 2: He suggested it. 729 00:35:42,765 --> 00:35:44,245 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like it wasn't like he told me, 730 00:35:44,285 --> 00:35:46,205 Speaker 3: you know, or anything like that. 731 00:35:46,565 --> 00:35:50,285 Speaker 1: Sam. It's interesting that he introduced you to his the 732 00:35:50,325 --> 00:35:52,125 Speaker 1: woman he was having an affair with, and then you 733 00:35:52,325 --> 00:35:55,085 Speaker 1: went and repeated that pattern all those years later. 734 00:35:55,645 --> 00:35:57,885 Speaker 2: I mean, like my oldest brother, we talk about this 735 00:35:58,005 --> 00:36:01,165 Speaker 2: quite a bit. My dad. Basically he modeled for us 736 00:36:01,325 --> 00:36:05,085 Speaker 2: that that boundary can be crossed, like the number one man. 737 00:36:05,245 --> 00:36:08,445 Speaker 2: I looked up to cross that boundary and I'm looking 738 00:36:08,565 --> 00:36:12,005 Speaker 2: up at him saying, oh, okay, that boundary you can cross, 739 00:36:12,045 --> 00:36:13,885 Speaker 2: and that on that he showed me what it was worth. 740 00:36:14,285 --> 00:36:16,965 Speaker 2: It was worth six children and a wife had been 741 00:36:16,965 --> 00:36:19,525 Speaker 2: married to for so long as worth as home. I 742 00:36:19,565 --> 00:36:22,165 Speaker 2: think that really does damage to a boy, and it 743 00:36:22,205 --> 00:36:24,925 Speaker 2: teaches him something. It gives them a really hard lesson 744 00:36:25,005 --> 00:36:27,285 Speaker 2: that there's a lot to be had in an affair. 745 00:36:27,885 --> 00:36:30,245 Speaker 1: Wow, that's so interesting what you say, because I would 746 00:36:30,245 --> 00:36:33,765 Speaker 1: have thought that you would have gone, I'll never do 747 00:36:33,845 --> 00:36:37,205 Speaker 1: that because I saw what it cost. But what you 748 00:36:37,325 --> 00:36:40,725 Speaker 1: saw was that it was so worth it because he 749 00:36:40,805 --> 00:36:43,285 Speaker 1: walked away from all his children and his house and 750 00:36:43,325 --> 00:36:46,725 Speaker 1: his marriage. So it must be pretty awesome to have 751 00:36:46,765 --> 00:36:48,205 Speaker 1: an affair and do that. Wow. 752 00:36:48,525 --> 00:36:50,885 Speaker 2: That's all subconsciously though. Yeah, I did not want to 753 00:36:50,925 --> 00:36:51,805 Speaker 2: repeat what he did. 754 00:36:52,085 --> 00:36:56,805 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that. Just so you know. 755 00:36:57,165 --> 00:36:59,445 Speaker 1: This isn't the end of my conversation with Sam and Nia. 756 00:37:00,365 --> 00:37:03,205 Speaker 1: We stayed a little longer in their bedroom. What they 757 00:37:03,205 --> 00:37:05,445 Speaker 1: shared about their childhood's really put things in a different 758 00:37:05,445 --> 00:37:08,685 Speaker 1: perspective for me, because knowing that both Sam and Nia 759 00:37:09,525 --> 00:37:13,005 Speaker 1: from families that had been torn apart by infidelity, you 760 00:37:13,045 --> 00:37:16,405 Speaker 1: can see that their story began long before Ashley Madison 761 00:37:17,005 --> 00:37:19,645 Speaker 1: and that it's ongoing. I mean even now they're navigating 762 00:37:19,645 --> 00:37:22,325 Speaker 1: this together, and they're navigating all of it while the 763 00:37:22,365 --> 00:37:26,445 Speaker 1: Ashley Madison Netflix documentary is getting global attention. I mean 764 00:37:26,445 --> 00:37:29,085 Speaker 1: that's how I reached out to them because I saw 765 00:37:29,125 --> 00:37:32,525 Speaker 1: them on Netflix. So in part two of this interview, 766 00:37:32,965 --> 00:37:36,445 Speaker 1: why did they choose to participate in the documentary? Do 767 00:37:36,525 --> 00:37:40,005 Speaker 1: they regret it? And what's happened since then? How are 768 00:37:40,005 --> 00:37:42,125 Speaker 1: they talking to their kids about all of this now 769 00:37:42,165 --> 00:37:44,405 Speaker 1: that it's out in the open. Sam and Nea have 770 00:37:44,485 --> 00:37:47,805 Speaker 1: four kids and their oldest is fourteen. Her name's Symphony, 771 00:37:47,925 --> 00:37:51,125 Speaker 1: so we know that that means she's hearing about things, 772 00:37:51,165 --> 00:37:53,285 Speaker 1: and so are some of their other kids. Here's a 773 00:37:53,285 --> 00:37:55,165 Speaker 1: little bit about what we talked about in this next 774 00:37:55,165 --> 00:37:56,085 Speaker 1: part of the conversation. 775 00:37:56,685 --> 00:37:59,285 Speaker 3: Red Flags, run girl. Once a cheater, always a cheer. 776 00:37:59,285 --> 00:38:02,325 Speaker 3: I mean, you name it. I think every single thing 777 00:38:02,525 --> 00:38:05,005 Speaker 3: has been written in a comment third about how I 778 00:38:05,045 --> 00:38:08,205 Speaker 3: should I'm so dumb or he's so bad or we're Sophie. 779 00:38:08,405 --> 00:38:10,765 Speaker 1: What kind of for that as there been from the documentary? 780 00:38:10,765 --> 00:38:13,885 Speaker 1: And does Sam ever get tired of apologizing? It's kind 781 00:38:13,885 --> 00:38:17,845 Speaker 1: of like this global punishment tour where he just has 782 00:38:17,885 --> 00:38:21,285 Speaker 1: to go and say I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Does Nia 783 00:38:21,405 --> 00:38:23,845 Speaker 1: have a red line now that would make her rethink 784 00:38:24,165 --> 00:38:26,805 Speaker 1: staying with someone who's cheated? Does she think everybody should 785 00:38:26,805 --> 00:38:29,485 Speaker 1: stay with a cheating partner? And if you like me 786 00:38:30,005 --> 00:38:32,725 Speaker 1: and your girlfriends are your lifeline. One thing in the 787 00:38:32,765 --> 00:38:37,285 Speaker 1: documentary that really hit hard was when Nia found out 788 00:38:37,445 --> 00:38:42,045 Speaker 1: that Sam had propositioned one of her closest friends and 789 00:38:42,085 --> 00:38:44,565 Speaker 1: that friend had just cut off ties with both of them, 790 00:38:44,565 --> 00:38:47,205 Speaker 1: and Nia hadn't known why. I wanted to know how 791 00:38:47,245 --> 00:38:50,125 Speaker 1: that part of the story ended as well. Just click 792 00:38:50,165 --> 00:38:52,365 Speaker 1: the link in the show notes to listen. I'm also 793 00:38:52,405 --> 00:38:54,845 Speaker 1: popping a link to Sam and Nia's book Live in 794 00:38:54,925 --> 00:38:57,845 Speaker 1: Truth in the show notes. This episode was produced by 795 00:38:57,885 --> 00:39:01,525 Speaker 1: Kimberly Bradish and Nama Brown, with sound production by Leah Pauges. 796 00:39:02,085 --> 00:39:04,285 Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman. I'll see you in Part two.