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Speaker 1: It's July twenty fifteen, and Lauren Trevin finds a business

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Speaker 1: card in her letterbox. It's from a detective. They want

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Speaker 1: to speak to her husband. She's confused.

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Speaker 2: What could the police possibly want with him.

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Speaker 1: He's been unemployed for a year after being made redundant,

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Speaker 1: and bills are starting to pile up, with just her

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Speaker 1: salary keeping their family for afloat. But surely the police

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Speaker 1: don't get involved in late bills, right, It can't be

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Speaker 1: about her, despite her fear of him his coercive control.

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Speaker 1: She's never told anyone the extent of it, never even

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Speaker 1: made a report, So what do the police want. It's

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Speaker 1: about messages I sent to Emily, Kip tells her the

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Speaker 1: next day, after being formally interviewed. It's nothing. They were

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Speaker 1: completely innocent messages. Apparently there's an investigation into me, he continues,

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Speaker 1: as Lauren will soon find out her husband's messages to

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old Emily were anything but innocent.

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Speaker 2: And that's just the start.

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Speaker 1: Kip has been messaging multiple young girls, abusing young girls

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Speaker 1: for years, all while Lauren, who'd been living in her

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Speaker 1: own abusive relationship with him, had no idea. I'm Claire

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Speaker 1: Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring

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Speaker 1: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people

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Speaker 1: who know the most about them. There are many parallels

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Speaker 1: between coercive control and child grooming. Both are insidious and

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Speaker 1: silent to the outside world, and yet can happen right

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Speaker 1: there in plain sight. Both are extremely damaging, Both have

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Speaker 1: lifelong effects on victim survivors. Both are evident in the

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Speaker 1: story that we're about to tell you. When Lauren started

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Speaker 1: speaking out about her ex husband's crimes, many shied away

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Speaker 1: from those dark themes.

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Speaker 2: It was all just a.

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Speaker 1: Bit too much, too many horrible things at play. But

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Speaker 1: as Laurence says, not discussing hard topics does not stop

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Speaker 1: abuse from occurring. In fact, it only leaves victims and

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Speaker 1: survivors more isolated, and She's determined not to contribute to

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Speaker 1: the silence. Lauren's written a book called Now I See You.

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Speaker 1: It details her experience, but is a fictionalized version of

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Speaker 1: her story to protect the young victims within it.

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Speaker 2: She joins us, Now.

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Speaker 1: I guess Lauren, what I wanted to know right from

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Speaker 1: the get go is how you found writing the book

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Speaker 1: about your story. Putting all of those words down on

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Speaker 1: paper because I imagine, you know, recalling and retelling the story

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Speaker 1: of what happened to you and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: around you who you're very close to. That must have

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Speaker 1: been an incredibly difficult journey for you.

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Speaker 3: It was difficult, but at the same time, I found

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Speaker 3: it really cathartic. Essentially, I found I was at a

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Speaker 3: space in time where I had moved on from the

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Speaker 3: story a little bit in my life, so that no

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Speaker 3: one around me was speaking about anything anymore. No one

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Speaker 3: would really bring it up because it's the ugly, still

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Speaker 3: fresh but ugly past, and so me delving into the

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Speaker 3: book was almost like a therapy because I still needed

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Speaker 3: to talk about it, and I was just super passionate

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Speaker 3: about getting my whole story out there. So that I mean, essentially,

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Speaker 3: I don't want him to be able to do it again,

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Speaker 3: and I want other people to see signs to stop

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Speaker 3: it happening again.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the human question. The human question

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Speaker 1: is your ex husband, Kip. Can you take us back

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Speaker 1: to the beginning, tell us tell us a story about

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Speaker 1: how you two fell in love.

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Speaker 3: So we met at a sporting club back in the

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Speaker 3: very late nineties. He was actually dating one of my

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Speaker 3: very close friends at the time, and I was dating

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Speaker 3: another boy in the sporting team, and we all used

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Speaker 3: to hang out together a lot, and essentially what happened

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Speaker 3: is we both broke up with the other partners and

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Speaker 3: then ended up pretty much getting together. Was it wasn't

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Speaker 3: like I had a decision in that I hadn't really

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Speaker 3: thought about it. We were all at his house one

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Speaker 3: night having drinks, and all of a sudden, he took

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Speaker 3: me outside and kissed me, and I was like, oh gosh,

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Speaker 3: like I'd never had It was a really big surprise

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Speaker 3: to me that he was interested in me. He was this,

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Speaker 3: you know, super popular guy in the club. He'd been

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Speaker 3: there forever, and he was really talented, and you know,

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Speaker 3: he was the type of guy when he would talk,

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Speaker 3: people would listen around him. And I think I was

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Speaker 3: just a little bit blown away by the fact he

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Speaker 3: was interested in me at all. I hadn't really gone

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Speaker 3: there in my head until it happened. And then obviously

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Speaker 3: I was not close friends with that friend anymore after that,

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Speaker 3: and I think I felt like I'd invested a lot

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Speaker 3: into that relationship, so I kind of felt like, oh,

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Speaker 3: it was meant to be. It must have been meant

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Speaker 3: to be if it means giving up these other good

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Speaker 3: things in my life.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting in reflection, is it when you look

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Speaker 1: at your entire story that you can now pinpoint red

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Speaker 1: flags before you knew red flags were coming your way?

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Speaker 1: Because to have someone sort of come up to you

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Speaker 1: and take that initiative and just kiss you seemingly out

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Speaker 1: of nowhere, when you've had no thoughts or feelings about

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Speaker 1: this person leading up to that point, it's so hard

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Speaker 1: to explain how now, looking back, that looks like a

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Speaker 1: red flag, but in that moment, that feels very romantic,

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Speaker 1: and that feels very much like a fairy tale love story.

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Speaker 3: Right it was, and it did feel that way, and

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Speaker 3: that's why I felt like, oh, it must be meant

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Speaker 3: to be, you know, he must be my soulmate if

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Speaker 3: it felt so good.

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Speaker 4: At the time, even though it was wrong at the time.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's where he he got me really

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Speaker 3: invested in that relationship, because I'd already given up things

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Speaker 3: before it even started to be with him. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: that was definitely the first warning. I would say.

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Speaker 1: We mentioned there that you met at a sporting club.

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Speaker 1: Kip's role within that club was quite important, right, and

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Speaker 1: it only got more important as your relationship went along.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: He always was coaching people, and he was definitely a

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Speaker 3: senior member, and he ended up president of the club

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Speaker 3: we were we were in as well down the track.

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Speaker 3: But when I got together with him, he was twenty

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Speaker 3: nine years old and I was twenty, So yeah, already

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Speaker 3: a bit of a power imbalance.

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Speaker 1: So looking at the club perspective, was that your community?

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Speaker 1: So you're both involved in a sporting club. He's quite

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Speaker 1: an important person within that club. You've already mentioned a

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Speaker 1: power dynamic between your age differences, would you say there

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Speaker 1: was then a power dynamic between his role in the

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Speaker 1: club and your part within that club community.

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Speaker 3: Definitely at the beginning of the relationship. Over time, I

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Speaker 3: sort of got myself my own position as such within

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Speaker 3: the club and was quite confident within the club myself.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, certainly we were kind of like the mum

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Speaker 3: and dad by the end of it.

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Speaker 4: In the club.

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Speaker 3: We're talking over a fifteen year period, so we were

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Speaker 3: together a long time. But definitely at the start, I

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Speaker 3: was new to the club and learning, learning skills and

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Speaker 3: things like that and getting better at the sport. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was definitely power imbalance in the club as well.

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Speaker 4: At the start.

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Speaker 1: So you two move in together pretty quickly, only after

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Speaker 1: about six months and you start to build a life together.

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Speaker 1: Can you pinpoint the moment the controlling behavior started and

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Speaker 1: did you recognize it in the moment or was this

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Speaker 1: only something that you recognized in hindsight.

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Speaker 3: There's two events that happened fairly close together. One was

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Speaker 3: a friend of mine from high school sent me a

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Speaker 3: text message on my phone and he, Kip Wofford, read

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Speaker 3: the message at the time, and he was straight up

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Speaker 3: jealous and just and it was over the top jealous.

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Speaker 3: I can't remember the exact conversations because it's, you know,

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Speaker 3: twenty something years ago now, but it just went on

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Speaker 3: for days almost. It was way too much. It was

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Speaker 3: more than what I really had to go out of

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Speaker 3: my way to convince him.

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Speaker 4: No, no, I love you and only you.

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Speaker 3: And this was very early on in the relationship, like

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Speaker 3: within a couple of years. And the other thing he

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Speaker 3: really early event that I remember clearly is waking up

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Speaker 3: at like four in the morning with him just turning

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Speaker 3: the bedroom light on.

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Speaker 2: I was asleep.

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Speaker 3: He'd gone out drinking and sort of to some local clubs,

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Speaker 3: and he just stood in the doorway, leaning against the

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Speaker 3: doorjam and just boomed at me, who's been here, you

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Speaker 3: know with the light flatter? And I was just so

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Speaker 3: I had taken aback and sat up and half asleep.

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Speaker 4: And I'm like, what are you talking about? No one's

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Speaker 4: been here.

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Speaker 3: It was in his unit, of course, no one had

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Speaker 3: been there, and he goes, I can tell because the

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Speaker 3: toilet paper's hanging differently, and that was just a real

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Speaker 3: I never It took me hours after that to settle

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Speaker 3: him down and say no, no, I didn't have anyone here,

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Speaker 3: and he's still You couldn't convince him. It was like

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Speaker 3: we were talking about two different relationships. So he made

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Speaker 3: me work really hard to convince him I hadn't done

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Speaker 3: anything wrong, when I actually hadn't done anything wrong. I'd

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Speaker 3: just been in bed, and he made me work very

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Speaker 3: hard to try and convince him of that, and I

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Speaker 3: couldn't convince him. It took way too long, and he

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Speaker 3: ended up just passing out on the bed, and I

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Speaker 3: think I felt sick for days after that, because I

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Speaker 3: don't think there were so many different little events that

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Speaker 3: happened over time that kind of mold into one another,

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Speaker 3: now you know what I mean. They so it's hard

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Speaker 3: to pinpoint exactly, but those things would happen, and then

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Speaker 3: he wouldn't speak to me for days, and I'd have to,

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Speaker 3: you know, worm my way back into his life, if

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Speaker 3: that makes sense. But then then things would be brilliant again,

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Speaker 3: once our relationship got back on track, and he'd be loving,

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Speaker 3: and I'd go back into that honeymoon stage, you know,

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Speaker 3: the way our relationship had started, and he was, you know,

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Speaker 3: all kind words.

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Speaker 2: He was always very good with his words.

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Speaker 1: Did you at any stage when you're going through these

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Speaker 1: things where he's accusing you of having another man at

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Speaker 1: the house, did it ever occur to you with that

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Speaker 1: moment that he might be reflecting his own behaviors back

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Speaker 1: at you that the reason he was so concerned that

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Speaker 1: you had a man in the house is because he

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Speaker 1: was the one who was being unfaithful to you outside

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Speaker 1: of your your house.

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Speaker 4: Only.

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Speaker 3: Really, this is how blinded I was by this man.

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Speaker 3: He could convince me of just about anything he would.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I literally found him in bed with a really good

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Speaker 3: friend of mine one morning, and my friend got up

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Speaker 3: at six am and she ran out of the house

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Speaker 3: and I have like I'm friends with her again now

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Speaker 3: because I know what happened that night, but it certainly

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Speaker 3: wasn't her instigating it, and she was trying to get

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Speaker 3: out of it. And he convinced me over the coming

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Speaker 3: days that he had been so drunk that he couldn't

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Speaker 3: even remember if he'd done anything wrong, but he loved me,

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Speaker 3: and it wasn't really cheating if if he couldn't remember

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Speaker 3: it anyway. And it sounds so silly and dumb now,

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Speaker 3: but we're talking a few years into our relationship now,

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Speaker 3: and I was so invested. I'd moved in with him.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was my dream man, and he was

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Speaker 3: promising me the life I really want, and I thought

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Speaker 3: we were meant to be together, and I just would

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Speaker 3: have been so humiliated if it had offended that way,

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Speaker 3: and I just thoughtful, no, I can move on from

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Speaker 3: this if he wasn't really cheating. So he really did

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Speaker 3: a good job of convincing me, so No, I didn't

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Speaker 3: see back then that he was reflecting his own behaviors

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Speaker 3: on to me.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about your friend who ran out of

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Speaker 1: the house that day, and I know that you're really

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Speaker 1: mindful of not sharing other people's stories because it's not

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Speaker 1: your story to tell. But you mentioned that you know

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Speaker 1: now what happened that night, What did happen that night?

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Speaker 1: How did she explain what had happened between her and

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Speaker 1: your then boyfriend?

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Speaker 3: To be honest, we're only recently back in contact through Instagram,

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Speaker 3: of all things. We live in different states, and I'm

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Speaker 3: sure we will catch up properly. But all she's really

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Speaker 3: said is I saved her by walking in, like at

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Speaker 3: the time I walked in, and she hasn't been able

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Speaker 3: to say much else. I think she was in a

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Speaker 3: really sticky situation that she didn't want to get in

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Speaker 3: and didn't really know how to get out of it.

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Speaker 3: Because we were all raised to be polite, and I

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Speaker 3: think that where we didn't really stand up for ourselves

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Speaker 3: as much as we do nowadays.

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Speaker 2: That could also be said.

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Speaker 1: I guess of you taking on all of the mental

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Speaker 1: load of running your home too, is that there's this

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Speaker 1: expectation that that's just the woman you're supposed to.

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Speaker 3: Be, right, Yeah, exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned that you also got yourself a role

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Speaker 1: within the club, and you are working full time, so

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Speaker 1: obviously you're in the world and you're achieving things and

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Speaker 1: you know, growing How did Kip react to your successes?

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Speaker 3: Specifically, my biggest one that shines for me was when

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Speaker 3: I came home after finishing my nursing course and I

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Speaker 3: was so excited. I was, I was like graduated nursing.

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Speaker 3: I was going to be able to work now after

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Speaker 3: two and a half years. And I was so excited,

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Speaker 3: and he barely grunted at me. Like I realize now

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Speaker 3: that I look back, it was him not being able

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Speaker 3: to share joy in something that I'd done for myself,

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Speaker 3: because he was really he was very good at talking

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Speaker 3: me up with things he'd had a hand in, you know,

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Speaker 3: like if I'd got a new skill that he'd showed me,

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Speaker 3: I was good at that, like you know, four wheel

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Speaker 3: driving or something like that. You know, he could be

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Speaker 3: proud of me because he'd shown me how. So it

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Speaker 3: was actually his accomplishment, if that makes sense. Yeah, now

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Speaker 3: that I look back, that's.

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Speaker 2: What it was.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell the story about the margarine you bought

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Speaker 1: a different brand because most of us do when we

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Speaker 1: go shopping, like we're looking for bargains, right, So you've

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Speaker 1: gone for something that's just a little bit cheaper than

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Speaker 1: what you usually again, how did he react to that?

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Speaker 3: Well, that specific story is relating to in my book

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Speaker 3: Now I See You, which I fictionalized, But that was

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Speaker 3: something that was a conversation that came up a lot

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Speaker 3: like it just wouldn't have happened that I buy the

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Speaker 3: wrong margarine because that is the margarine he has, That's

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Speaker 3: the margarine he's always had, and that's the one.

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Speaker 4: And there was a.

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Speaker 3: Cheese I had to buy, and there was you know,

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Speaker 3: there was just things that you just did for him

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Speaker 3: to keep the piece. So you knew that you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: get his negativity and he wouldn't be you just didn't

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Speaker 3: want to upset him. I remember not long after us

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Speaker 3: getting married that I brought up something he'd done and

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Speaker 3: he just would flip the script and he went on

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Speaker 3: for hours and hours about how miserable his life was

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Speaker 3: and with me, and that I didn't have enough sex

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Speaker 3: with him, and that getting married like this is a

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Speaker 3: few months into our marriage, getting married had ruined our

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Speaker 3: sex life, had ruined our life. I just thought, oh

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Speaker 3: my god. I literally said to myself, if I want

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Speaker 3: to stay with this guy, I have to just have

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Speaker 3: sex with him whenever he wants to so he can

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Speaker 3: never do that to me again. Because it just went

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Speaker 3: on late into the night. He'd sort of keep me

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Speaker 3: up with this sleep deprivation of arguments that just went

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Speaker 3: on and on and on, and it just wore me down,

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Speaker 3: and it was like this sort of mind fuckery, if

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Speaker 3: that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 3: More than that, because it was like again, talking about

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Speaker 3: two different relationships. I actually started to keep a sex

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Speaker 3: diary after that because I wanted to be able to

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Speaker 3: no no here we had sex here, Like I didn't

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Speaker 3: want him to be able to have a go at

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Speaker 3: me like that again but again. And in between those times,

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Speaker 3: it would be like that never happened, and you think,

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Speaker 3: oh god, I'm so glad that's over. Thank God, that's

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Speaker 3: not going to happen again. I'll make sure that doesn't

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Speaker 3: happen again, that he gets that upset with me about

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Speaker 3: something that he's been berating me. But over time it

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Speaker 3: just got worse and worse in the relationship. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: he would say things. He was constantly jealous. He said

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Speaker 3: he'd put cameras all over the house so he'd know

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Speaker 3: if I had someone there.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the first time you heard the term

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Speaker 1: coercive control?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I do very clearly. I was listening to a

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Speaker 3: podcast with Laura Richards speaking about it, and this was

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Speaker 3: well after my relationship had ended, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh, that's what happened to me. I was

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Speaker 3: exact like everything, the whole the manipulation, with the threat

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Speaker 3: of suicide when I tried to leave, the just so much,

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Speaker 3: but over time, and just the whittling down of who

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Speaker 3: I was, because after fifteen years with him, I really

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Speaker 3: i'd taken on his political views. I just literally became

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Speaker 3: this sort of yes person to him.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Lauren Trevin, author of the book Now

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Speaker 1: I See You up next. Lauren tells us about the

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Speaker 1: first time Kip's abuse turned physical. Did the violence against

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Speaker 1: you ever turn physical? I mean, obviously feeling like you're

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Speaker 1: forced to have intimacy with a man in the way

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Speaker 1: that it has now been laid out for you, that

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Speaker 1: in itself is physical violence. But did it ever escalate

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Speaker 1: to a point where you felt for your bodily safety.

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Speaker 3: Probably the last few years of our relationship, I realized

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Speaker 3: how trapped I was and how frightened of him. He

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Speaker 3: was he'd always been very much such a violent person,

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Speaker 3: never with me, like he'd punched holes in walls in

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Speaker 3: the house, and he'd stood over me like with you know,

345
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Speaker 3: nostrils flaring and fists clenched and things like that, but

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Speaker 3: never actually touched me in a physically violent way. But

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Speaker 3: you know, just for an example, we were sitting outside

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Speaker 3: with some neighbors one day, two brothers that had moved

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Speaker 3: in above us quite early on in our relationship, the

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Speaker 3: first five years, and I don't know what one of

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Speaker 3: the brothers did or said, but he all of a

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Speaker 3: sudden pushed the table out, jumped up and threw this

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Speaker 3: brother into the wall like a brick wall because of

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Speaker 3: something like something the brother had said or looked at

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Speaker 3: me funny or like it was a jealousy thing. And

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Speaker 3: obviously we didn't stay friends with those neighbors. He was

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Speaker 3: a volatile person, you know, but everyone kind of relied

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Speaker 3: on him because he.

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Speaker 4: Was a huge guy.

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Speaker 3: He was six foot three is six foot three, and

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Speaker 3: at that time he was built, you know, like a

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Speaker 3: rugby ford.

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Speaker 2: He was a big, big.

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Speaker 3: Guy, and he kind of commanded he'd be the one

365
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Speaker 3: to end the fights. Other people would start him. His

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00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 3: mates would start the fights, and he'd be the one

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Speaker 3: to finish the fights.

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Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to ask you that, if he's known

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Speaker 1: to be a sort of fairly physically violent guy, was

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Speaker 1: anyone looking out for you, like, was anyone asking the question?

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Speaker 3: No one was asking that question specifically. But I was

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Speaker 3: not sharing just about anything what was going on behind

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Speaker 3: closed doors, how I was in the marriage. You know,

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Speaker 3: we did present like a pretty healthy relationship, I think

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Speaker 3: out in public, but you know, and by the time

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Speaker 3: we had children and things like that, we just presented

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Speaker 3: as this, you know, a busy, little young family.

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Speaker 4: But no.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember my friend one day having lunch with her,

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Speaker 3: and I was explaining something I can't even remember what

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Speaker 3: had happened the night before, and I did confide in her,

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Speaker 3: and she said to.

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Speaker 4: Me, why don't you leave him?

384
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Speaker 2: He treats you like shit?

385
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Speaker 3: And I said, and even in that early days, I

386
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Speaker 3: had really young babies, And I remember saying to her,

387
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Speaker 3: because I know, leaving him is going to be way

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Speaker 3: harder than trying to live with him. And I was already,

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Speaker 3: without me admitting it to myself properly, I was already

390
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Speaker 3: frightened because I didn't know what he was capable of

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Speaker 3: if I did leave, because I always given in and

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Speaker 3: behaved myself, behaved the way he wanted me to behave,

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Speaker 3: If that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: What was it like for you when you were pregnant

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Speaker 1: and having babies, when you're even more vulnerable than what

396
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Speaker 1: you already are in that relationship.

397
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Speaker 3: So when I got pregnant with my first daughter, he

398
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Speaker 3: was at first seemed quite happy, but then the pregnancy

399
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Speaker 3: seems like a real hassle to him because I was

400
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Speaker 3: sick all the time. I was I just mourning sickness.

401
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 3: Wasn't mourning sickness for me. It just was there the

402
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 3: whole pregnancy. Every day I'd pretty much wake up throwing up,

403
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Speaker 3: and then it would just continue.

404
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Speaker 4: It wasn't a lot of fun.

405
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 3: So yeah, it probably wasn't a lot of fun to

406
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 3: be around back then, but it was really tough. And

407
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 3: I was hoping that pregnancy would you know, make him

408
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,360
Speaker 3: stop smoking and make him stop drinking, and you know nothing, No.

409
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Speaker 3: I thought it would bring us closer together, but it didn't.

410
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 3: It did the opposite. He'd just you know, take off

411
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Speaker 3: and do his own thing on the weekend.

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Speaker 2: What kind of dad was he?

413
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Speaker 3: He was super lovely to the children in terms of

414
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 3: he was always great with kids and when he was

415
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 3: around them, he'd you know, happily bounce them on his

416
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,199
Speaker 3: knee and stuff like that. But in terms of doing

417
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 3: the hard yards of parenting, I pretty much did most

418
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Speaker 3: that he'd come in. And yeah, he changed some nap.

419
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 3: He was certainly not the worst parent that you've ever

420
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Speaker 3: heard of at all, but he was not supportive of

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Speaker 3: me at all.

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Speaker 2: When did you realize he was tracking your car?

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Speaker 3: Well, that I cannot prove, but I just was at

424
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Speaker 3: a work function and he rang me and said to me,

425
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,959
Speaker 3: so it could have been my phone. I don't know,

426
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 3: but it was a work function that wasn't at work,

427
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: but it was at a pub around the corner. But

428
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 3: it was an education night. And it was just the way,

429
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 3: because when you're in these relationships, it can be like

430
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 3: the slightest look that they give you and you know

431
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 3: something's really a miss, or the slightest tone, difference in

432
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 3: his tone, and the difference in his tone when he said, oh,

433
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Speaker 3: he got he sort of answered the phone and goes on,

434
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Speaker 3: where are you? And I said, I'm at the work

435
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 3: function and he goes, no, where are you exactly? And

436
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 3: I just I just at that it just clicked to me.

437
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 3: I just he knows where I am. I'm sure he

438
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 3: knows where I am. And he's asking why am I

439
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 3: at a pub? He's saying, I'm lying to him. I

440
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 3: think he thinks he's caught me out doing something wrong.

441
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 3: But and it just dawned on me that and I

442
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 3: never felt I never felt like safe after that in

443
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 3: terms of him, Like, I just figured he knew where

444
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: I was all the time, and I knew by then

445
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 3: he was reading my messages. So you know, he was

446
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 3: much more tech savvy than me.

447
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: So you've gone through quite a lot, You've asked him

448
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: to move out, he's refused. You know he's controlling you.

449
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: Is he also controlling finances? Is he isolating you from

450
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: people and money and things like that that they often

451
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: see in coercive control cases?

452
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 3: So, yes, he had he was the major money earner,

453
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: and he would like give me one of his cards

454
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 3: to use. But we never had joint bank accounts. And

455
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: even when I went back to work, he would just

456
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 3: pay all the major bills and things like that. And yeah,

457
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 3: so our money was kept quite separate in terms of

458
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: isolating he would in a clever, manipulative way, like he'd

459
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 3: say little snide comments about my best friend for instance.

460
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 3: He was very, very clever. He would never outright tell

461
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 3: me I could or couldn't do things as well, but

462
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 3: he would, like if I went to a mother's group dinner,

463
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 3: he would just make my life miserable when I got home,

464
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 3: and he'd say, like I would get accused of having

465
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 3: another affair or something like that would happen when I

466
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 3: came home, or something would happen. He'd just be miserable

467
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 3: around me, and I couldn't. He just made things not

468
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: worth doing. Like I describe co control as you know

469
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 3: those dog collars that people put on dogs that don't

470
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 3: have fences, that as soon as they hit the boundary

471
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 3: of the fence that they get an electric shock. And

472
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 3: that's that's what coercive control is. It's not this outright.

473
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 3: You learn, you take one step forward and one step.

474
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: Back or two steps back because.

475
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 3: You learn, and then it's like getting hit by a

476
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 3: baseball bat when you break the rules that you didn't

477
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 3: know were there, If that makes sense. It's very It

478
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 3: really does screw with your brain. Yeah, and you just

479
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: don't recognize yourself.

480
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 1: After the break, Lauren tells us about the moment she

481
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: realized that the man she was married to was not.

482
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: Who she thought he was.

483
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: Will take us to that day in twenty fifteen, there's

484
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: a business card in your letterbox.

485
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: What happened after that?

486
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 3: So there was a police card in our letterbox and

487
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 3: I just said to him, oh, what's this for? And

488
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 3: he goes, I'll sort it out later. I don't know.

489
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 3: And anyway, he wasn't working at that stage. He'd been

490
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 3: made redundant the year before and still didn't have a

491
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 3: job like close to a year later, so he should

492
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 3: have been home in that evening, but I'd gone and

493
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: got the kids and everything. And anyway, finally at eight

494
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 3: thirty at night, he rang me on my phone and

495
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 3: I said, well, where are you? I had been really worried,

496
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 3: and he goes, I was just interviewed by the police.

497
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 4: And he actually said.

498
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: His actual words were, this fucking bitch of a detective

499
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: just interviewed me.

500
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: So he was interviewed by a woman.

501
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And interestingly I met her later on this

502
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: one who first, and she said, oh my god, he

503
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 3: made my skin crawl the first time I met him,

504
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I wish he hadn't done that time me,

505
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 3: but no. So anyway, he said he was being investigated

506
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: for some using some carriage servers to send messages to

507
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 3: one of the girls in the club. And I said,

508
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 3: what do you mean? And he started to talk about

509
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 3: this girl and I said, she's thirteen. Why are you

510
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 3: messaging her? Anyway? And he goes, oh, it was all

511
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: about It was all about this coaching I was doing

512
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 3: with her on the weekend, and it was all in jest,

513
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 3: and it was just stupid stuff and the families being

514
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 3: milicious because the dad doesn't like me, and anyway, I

515
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: was convinced of that, and I just believed him, even

516
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,479
Speaker 3: though something felt really wrong in my guts about it,

517
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 3: like something felt really off. And it was on the

518
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: Saturday after that we had our AGM and we were

519
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 3: all seated around this table at one of the members houses,

520
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 3: and Kip had gotten up and resigned as president and

521
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 3: went outside because of the investigation, he had to resign

522
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 3: and he went outside, and then I got all up

523
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: at me and said, I hope that you know I

524
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 3: want this whole family band after all this companies defense,

525
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Yes, And then I'm so embarrassed by

526
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: it now. But someone ended up just saying to me, oh, Lauren,

527
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: just just just wait until you know what's happened. And

528
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, no, I know what's happened. Anyway, the

529
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 3: meeting went on, and then someone handed me a transcript

530
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 3: because his mother and mother of this girl had sent

531
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: it to the club and I was on the committee,

532
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 3: so they handed it to me to read. And when

533
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 3: I read the messages, I was just blown away. It

534
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 3: was not my husband, it was not his voice, it

535
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: was not his the way he sends text messages. It's

536
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 3: all smiley faces and ha ha has and something about

537
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 3: wish I could be chasing little hotties like you, and

538
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: you know, he wanted to massage her butt, and all

539
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: like this is a thirteen year old. He was forty

540
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: five at this time. There was nothing in jest about it.

541
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: When I was reading it, it was it was sickening.

542
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 3: And I just got up and I said to my

543
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 3: best friend, I got to go, and I wrangled the

544
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: kids together, who were three and six at the time,

545
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: and I popped them in the car. And then he

546
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 3: must have found out I was leaving the house, and

547
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: I just and I just screamed at him and said,

548
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: you sound like a fucking pedophile. Did not come home,

549
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: and yeah, that was the end of my relationship with him.

550
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: That young girl that they found the text messages between

551
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: the two that was really found by accident, like a

552
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: mom was just up one night he sent a late

553
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: night message. The phone happened to be near her. She

554
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: happened to intercept it at the time.

555
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: So had it not.

556
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: Forbien that kind of a lining of planets, I never

557
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: have known about this behavior. But then you would find

558
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: out that it was more than one girl. How did

559
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: you then find out that this behavior was actually quite

560
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: the norm for him?

561
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 3: So I think it was quite early on, It was

562
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 3: within weeks. It was all a bit of a blur

563
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: in that time, as you can imagine, because my marriage

564
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: was over in like two seconds. My very very close

565
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: friend rang me and she said one of her daughters

566
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 3: had called her and said that he had molested her

567
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 3: one night, and that was the next person coming forward.

568
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 3: And at that stage she decided to go to the

569
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: police as well and do a statement. And then the

570
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 3: police ended up calling a whole club meeting and I

571
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: didn't go because I figured people won't talk freely around

572
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 3: me because they might think I'm on his side or something.

573
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 3: I really wanted the girls to know that I supported

574
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 3: them because it was a family club. Like everyone in

575
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: that felt like my family. We spent so much time together,

576
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 3: and these young girls, some of them had babysat my children.

577
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 3: I had babysat some of these girls as well. When anyway,

578
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: it just slowly drip drip, drip until more girls came forward,

579
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 3: and eventually we found out there was up to seven

580
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: seven girls that and he'd done much more than just

581
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: send messages. That was how he would start his He

582
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 3: hasn't formally been charged with grooming because those grooming laws

583
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 3: didn't exist at that stage, but I mean, essentially, if

584
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: you were to look at the definition of grooming, that's

585
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 3: what was happening.

586
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: And he was doing this from when some of these

587
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: girls were like eleven, right, that's right.

588
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 4: Yep, yes.

589
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: So he would start by sending messages and like getting closer,

590
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 3: and they'd be harmless at first, and then he'd slowly

591
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: start to sexualize the messages like add in and a

592
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 3: few of the girls had like almost curled him out

593
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 3: on being rude in his messages. Like one of them

594
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 3: actually just wrote back pedo or something and he stopped

595
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: messaging her. And there was definitely girls that had said

596
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: they had messages but their parents didn't want them to

597
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: go to the police. So anyway, I'm sure it was

598
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: bigger than it was. But yes, he was initially charged

599
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 3: with seven offenses and then child sex offenses and then

600
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 3: that was ranging from using a carriage service to cause

601
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 3: offense to pretty much sexual penetration of a child under sixteen,

602
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: And he ended up getting charged with forty seven charges

603
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 3: in total. But by the time you go to trial,

604
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: they whittle that down to the most they say in Australia.

605
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 3: I don't know why they say that. The jury they

606
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: try and just consolidate it into just a smaller group

607
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 3: of charges, like the most serious. So yeah, in the end,

608
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 3: he was tried for twenty five of those crimes against yeah,

609
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 3: seven girls.

610
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: And was he found guilty of all those.

611
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 3: He was found guilty of all but one of the

612
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: text message charge where the girl had deleted it when

613
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 3: she couldn't exactly remember what had been said, so you

614
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 3: can understand that. And then he was found one of

615
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 3: the charges gave an alternate charge, So I think it's

616
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: twenty three offenses in the end, three of rape he

617
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: was found guilty of, and then a whole bunch of

618
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 3: other charges that he was guilty of.

619
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: Did it make you a question what had maybe happened

620
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: with your own children?

621
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely? It did. Yes.

622
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 3: So after reading those messages, you know, I was I

623
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 3: rang his family and I was saying, look, I'm nervous

624
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 3: about leaving the children with him, like he's going to

625
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 3: come and see the children. And anyway, child Protection got

626
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 3: involved very early on, which I was grateful for at

627
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 3: the time, and they put in place that the children

628
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 3: had to be supervised around his children, within line of

629
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: sight and hearing by his mother. Yes, So that was

630
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 3: the first So that was within within a month of

631
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 3: us finding out. So that was before the charges were

632
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: laid in everything. So that was within a month of

633
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: us finding out about the messages. Yeah, not to see

634
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 3: the children unsupervised.

635
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: So he's still allowed access to his children after he's

636
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: been accused. Is he still allowed access after charges are

637
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: laid against him.

638
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 3: Yes, So he was allowed access despite me saying that

639
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 3: I didn't believe his mother wasn't supervising properly because the

640
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 3: kids would come home and say, oh, you know, they

641
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 3: were out doing something. They had been at the beach

642
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: or something, and oh no, but he was out in

643
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 3: the boat with the kids, and I'd say, oh, it

644
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 3: was grandmother there. Oh no, she was on the beach,

645
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 3: and it's like, that's not supervising. And it was like

646
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 3: talking to a brick wall in the family court trying

647
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 3: to get anything changed once it's written down as a

648
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 3: consent order. Because I'd signed consent orders that she could

649
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 3: supervise despite them making her sign an undertaking, I still

650
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 3: didn't believe that she was supervising properly. But you know,

651
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 3: the family court was not a good experience at all.

652
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 3: I remember I was thinking because his family started taking

653
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 3: him into the school. On at least one occasion, he

654
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: was there with his mother, but then off reading with

655
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 3: another little child in my daughter's class, or other kids

656
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 3: as well.

657
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: So so he's been allowed onto school grounds after being

658
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: charged with child sexual offenses.

659
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 3: Forty seven charges at that stage and including yeah, sexual

660
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 3: penetration of children. So at that stage I didn't even

661
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 3: know about it until my daughter said, oh, daddy was

662
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 3: in class today, and I was like, oh wow, And

663
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 3: I'd moved her schools so no one recognized him as

664
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 3: her dad. And then she was really excited and I said,

665
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 3: was he reading to you? Like just reading to you?

666
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 3: And she said no, no other kids too, and I

667
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 3: was just I rang the police and said, surely that's

668
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 3: breaking bail and they said, unfortunately it's not because his

669
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: mother was there with him, because he had to be

670
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 3: with another with some another adult to be with other

671
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 3: girls under sixteen. It didn't say anything about schools the

672
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 3: bail strictly, and so I rang child Protection. They said

673
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: they couldn't help. And then I rang the school and said,

674
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 3: which I had not wanted to do. I didn't want

675
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 3: them knowing what was going on, and I ended up

676
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 3: just telling them everything because I said, you cannot have

677
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 3: this man in a classroom. I said, what are people

678
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 3: going to say when the parents going to say when

679
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 3: they find out a charge sex offenders in the classroom

680
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: reading to the little Johnny by himself around the corner.

681
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 3: I was just I could not get over how our

682
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 3: system lets us down. And that's what I was going

683
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 3: to say as well about when I met the children's

684
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 3: lawyer in family court. I thought, family court will be,

685
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: you know, a breeze for someone like me, he's going

686
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 3: into it with you know, he's a child sex offender. Nope,

687
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 3: he still has just as many rights as you know

688
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 3: that the whole focus was all about maintaining his relationship

689
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 3: with the children rather than the children ought to be

690
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 3: protected from a child sex offender.

691
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: So it's.

692
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 3: It was really that part of it was really tough.

693
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: So while you're fighting the system, there's all these parents

694
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: of young girls who are having to face the reality

695
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: that their young daughters have been groomed, sexually assaulted by

696
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: a man that they knew and trusted. And as you mentioned,

697
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: these people have been like family to you, Like this

698
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: is your community. How did you then go on? Do

699
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: you remove yourself from that community? Do you try and

700
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: speak to the people who've been impacted by this? Like,

701
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: how do you then move forward from this? Well?

702
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 4: I couldn't.

703
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 3: I didn't feel like I could go back to the

704
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 3: club at all ever, So I was just I was

705
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: pretty heartbroken by that. I was just too I guess

706
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: ashamed at that stage, but I really wanted the girls

707
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 3: to know every year or to know that I was

708
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: one hundred percent behind them straight away. So it was

709
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 3: very early on I sent a big group message to

710
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: all the girls saying how much I supported them and

711
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 3: was hoping that if anything has happened to them or

712
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 3: he's sent any inappropriate messages. I can't remember exactly what

713
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 3: I wrote, but I just said that I really loved

714
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 3: them all and that I want them to speak to

715
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 3: the police if they can, and that I fully support them.

716
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: The whole way.

717
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: How was your relationship with the parents, Because I understand

718
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: there's a family who's two daughters were molested by your

719
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: ex husband and she was very close to you. You

720
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: guys are really good friends. How does that relationship end

721
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: up after all.

722
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 3: This, Where like still really really great friends and I

723
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 3: see her daughters still and where yeah, very much. We

724
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: don't live in the same state anymore, but where yeah,

725
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 3: we'll be in contact for life. And I have intermittently

726
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 3: kept up to date, and I'm you know, on social media.

727
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 3: I keep up with all those girls to see, you know,

728
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 3: them living their lives and make sure that everything's going.

729
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 3: Because for them to stand up, you know, at that stage,

730
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 3: some of them were you know, so young, and they're

731
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 3: standing up to this man that I never could and

732
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: it was so impressive to me that it really helped

733
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 3: me get the strength to, you know, get stay away

734
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 3: from him and to give evidence against him at his trial.

735
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 3: And it Yeah, those girls are all very very phenomenal, beautiful,

736
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 3: beautiful human beings. So despite what he did, he he

737
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 3: didn't destroy any of them. So I'm so proud of them.

738
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: That when you said that, one of those girls messaged

739
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 1: him back, calling him apedo, like, I can only hope

740
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 1: that our daughters have enough of that determination in them

741
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: to also respond like that.

742
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 2: You must have.

743
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 1: Been really relieved to know that some of those girls

744
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: really were equipped to understand what he was, because not

745
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: all kids are educated to be able to identify and

746
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: you yourself didn't see any of it, Like, it's really

747
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: difficult when these people manipulating, especially young vulnerable people, But

748
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 1: to know that a young teenage girl has already clicked

749
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: in her brain that this is not right, Like, you

750
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: must have been so immensely proud of a really young

751
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: woman to be able to do that.

752
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 4: I was.

753
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 3: And I think that that was also a sign of

754
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 3: him getting cocky in what he was doing, because by

755
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: that stage he was quite a few years down the

756
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 3: track of abusing girls. I think early on he really

757
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: took his time with the before, he sort of would

758
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 3: sexualize the messages, and I think he was starting to

759
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 3: get to be honest, Yeah, a bit cocky that he

760
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 3: could just have anything he wanted.

761
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 4: To be honest.

762
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: I still think he thinks he's done nothing wrong and

763
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 3: that all those girls he just was convinced that they

764
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 3: wanted him as well, you know, like I don't. He

765
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 3: said to the family court reporter that he had done

766
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 3: nothing wrong and then accused me of another affair. And

767
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 3: he's done nothing, nothing worse than what I'd done by

768
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 3: having an affair that didn't happen. So it's coercive control

769
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 3: as well. You know, he's manipulating them, he's manipulating the parents.

770
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 3: He looked like this great upstanding citizen with a wife

771
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 3: and two children at his heart in a sporting community club,

772
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 3: and you know, he was the one who would say

773
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 3: to the parents, don't worry, I'll be at that event

774
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 3: to look after them, you know, if you can't make it.

775
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 3: And you know, he was the guy that we trusted,

776
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 3: and he was, Yeah, it was quite phenomenal. He abused

777
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 3: girls in my house when I was there. It's just yeah,

778
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 3: when they read the sentencing remarks and all his offending

779
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 3: came out. It was it was quite nomenal to sit through.

780
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 3: But I was really proud of the Jewelry for getting

781
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 3: it right in my opinion. And the judge at the time,

782
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 3: Judge wis Chuson, I felt like he saw saw us

783
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 3: all and he said, you know, he because his lawyers

784
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 3: wouldn't let me do a victim impact statement because I

785
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 3: wasn't a victim. And that's what I was told along

786
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: the whole way. I was the only one who was

787
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 3: financially affected and needed the money because I had to

788
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 3: move out at that stage. But I was the only

789
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 3: one not a victim, which I understand, but I also

790
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 3: was as broken in a sense as a victim, like

791
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 3: I was broken by that man for a long time,

792
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,479
Speaker 3: and I wanted to do a victim impact statement because

793
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 3: it did affect me and the children. And eventually the

794
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 3: judge turned around and he stopped listening to the argument

795
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 3: that I couldn't do one, and he just said, those girls,

796
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 3: And then that's when I felt like he'd heard us,

797
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 3: he'd listened to us. He was all over the case.

798
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 3: When I knew that he knew that I loved them

799
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 3: as well, you know, And yeah, he goes, that's fine,

800
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 3: she can do. She's not a victim in the sense

801
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 3: of a victim. She's a or a family member of

802
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 3: the victim. And he said, but she loved them, So

803
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 3: that was beautiful that moment.

804
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: He is found guilty, sentenced fourteen years, but still makes

805
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: your life difficult, like you have to fight him to

806
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: be able to move into state. You obviously there will

807
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: come a day where he'll be set free.

808
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: How do you feel about that?

809
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 3: Honestly, in a way, I'm terrified, but I also want

810
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 3: to stand up and scream from the highest mountain because

811
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 3: I feel like every time I tell my story and

812
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 3: more people know about it. You know, the silence is

813
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 3: what gives them power, and by me staying silent, it's

814
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 3: just making him all powerful knowing that I'm sitting in

815
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 3: a little hole afraid to talk about any of this,

816
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 3: Whereas I need to take some of that power away

817
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 3: from him, and I need and it gives me strength

818
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 3: knowing that people are behind me. You know, he can't

819
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 3: do anything to hurt me, because it's going to be

820
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 3: so obvious, do you know what I mean, Like if

821
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 3: he comes for me or anything like that, everyone's going

822
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 3: to know, so he can only do it once, right,

823
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 3: So I'm not I'm refused to live in fear when

824
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 3: he gets out. Obviously, ask me in a few years time,

825
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 3: because yes, I'm terrified, but I'm also so determined, so

826
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 3: bloody determined, because I am sick to death of these

827
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 3: people getting away with this crap. And then he's going

828
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 3: to get out of jail and no one's going to

829
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 3: know about it. It's like it never happened. It's like

830
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 3: it never happened, and he'll just be able to pick

831
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 3: up his life where it left off. In a sense,

832
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 3: I know it won't be the same, but I don't

833
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 3: want him to be able to do it again, and

834
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 3: I want more people.

835
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 4: The more people that know about.

836
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 3: It, it's better for all of us. You know, these things.

837
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 3: People need to get comfortable with talking about uncomfortable topics

838
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 3: because child sex offending is happening everywhere right now, and

839
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 3: we need to step up and do a lot more

840
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 3: to stop it.

841
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: What does life look like Lauren Now, she's still essentially

842
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: partly living that past life because you've made it your mission,

843
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: as you've just said, to make sure this doesn't happen again.

844
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: But Lauren still has to move forward life too, So

845
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: where have you found yourself now? Are you happy? How

846
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: are your kids feeling? And do they know what's happened

847
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: with dad? Like, what's their understanding of everything?

848
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 3: So my daughter doesn't want to know yet what he's done.

849
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 3: They both know he's in jail. My son knows a

850
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 3: little bit of what he's done, but not none of

851
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 3: them really know the whole story. They really don't bring

852
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 3: him up anymore at all. They see their cousins and

853
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 3: they love their cousins and are happy to see them.

854
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 3: But the kids are doing really, really well. They've got

855
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 3: a brand new life in a new state that they've

856
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,439
Speaker 3: just settled into. I mean, honestly, they're just like every

857
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 3: other little crazy tun that drives you nuts.

858
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 2: Mine there, but I'm not looking forward to it now.

859
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 3: Well, I've got two teens as of the other day,

860
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 3: so yes, that they're challenging regardless of.

861
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, but my daughter, you know, she got me to

862
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 4: come and.

863
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 3: Speak at her at her cohorts pool last year about

864
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 3: healthy relationships and tell my story of coercive control. And

865
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 3: you know that that's the whole pointing out to kids

866
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 3: in your ten that extreme jealousy does not mean they're

867
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,919
Speaker 3: really into you. You know, it's a really scary sign

868
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 3: that someone's trying to control you, and it's one of

869
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 3: the first one of the first things at that age,

870
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 3: you know, just and anyone who wants to be with

871
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 3: you and your partner should be someone who wants to

872
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 3: see you as your very best version of yourself. It

873
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: shouldn't be it shouldn't be someone trying to make your

874
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 3: world smaller, which is what these coercive controllers do. They

875
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 3: try and isolate you, They try and belittle you, They

876
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 3: try and make you feel so that you're nothing, that

877
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 3: you're completely codependent on them, and that's what they gain

878
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 3: out of it. Whereas you know, someone who's a good relationship,

879
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 3: which I have now, is someone you can talk to,

880
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 3: someone who wants to see you do your best. Someone's

881
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 3: who celebrates your wins in life and wants to see

882
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 3: you have a vast and big friendship group. You know,

883
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: they don't want you to not go out again because

884
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 3: you know it's it's it's they want to see you happy.

885
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 3: And that's that's what I would say to every young

886
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 3: person going into a relationship, because that is a surefire

887
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 3: way to tell very early on if someone's you know,

888
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 3: trying to shut down your world and make it smaller.

889
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 3: Then it's not a good person.

890
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: Thanks to Loen for helping us tell her story. You

891
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: can find a link to her book Now I See

892
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: You in our show notes. True Crime Conversations is hosted

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00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: by me Claire Murphy. Our producer is Tarlie Blackman, with

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00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening.

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00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

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00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on