WEBVTT - How The Amish Wife’s Husband Got Away With Murder 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:28.662 recorded on It's just after Midnight On a warm summer 0:00:28.742 --> 0:00:32.462 night in July nineteen seventy seven, on a farm in Ohio, 0:00:32.702 --> 0:00:36.502 an Ida Stutsman wakes up her husband, Get up quick, 0:00:37.182 --> 0:00:41.862 there's a fire in the barn. She alerts him. She 0:00:41.902 --> 0:00:44.502 needs to save some milking equipment, She tells him before 0:00:44.582 --> 0:00:48.862 rushing towards the flames. He follows her, heading towards the 0:00:48.902 --> 0:00:54.782 blazing building, but Ida doesn't survive. A neighbor helps Eli 0:00:54.942 --> 0:00:58.342 carry his pregnant wife's body from inside the milkhouse beside 0:00:58.382 --> 0:01:02.382 the burning barn. She collapsed from a bad heart, he'd 0:01:02.462 --> 0:01:05.782 later tell the coroner. The stress of the fire was 0:01:05.822 --> 0:01:10.662 too much for her. From the very start, there were 0:01:10.662 --> 0:01:14.662 holes in Eli's story, but the Stutsmans were part of 0:01:14.702 --> 0:01:18.342 the Amish community, the very nature of their insular world. 0:01:18.782 --> 0:01:22.182 When the suspicious nature of Ida's death went unspoken for 0:01:22.302 --> 0:01:27.062 many years. After his wife's death, Eli left the Amish 0:01:27.062 --> 0:01:29.462 way of life and took the couple's young son, Danny, 0:01:29.502 --> 0:01:33.822 with him. Within a few years, at the age of nine, 0:01:33.942 --> 0:01:37.862 Danny died too. In fact, there was a trail of 0:01:37.942 --> 0:01:42.342 bodies that could be linked back to Eli Stutsman. But 0:01:42.382 --> 0:01:46.182 he always had a story, an excuse, a version of 0:01:46.182 --> 0:01:50.742 events he spun so confidently. But the truth always has 0:01:50.782 --> 0:01:55.542 a way of revealing itself, and eventually some of Eli's 0:01:55.542 --> 0:02:10.342 stories at least caught up with him. I'm Jemma Bah 0:02:10.742 --> 0:02:14.262 and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast 0:02:14.382 --> 0:02:17.782 exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 0:02:17.822 --> 0:02:21.102 people who know the most about them. The Amish are 0:02:21.142 --> 0:02:25.142 a distinctive Christian subculture of about two hundred thousand people 0:02:25.422 --> 0:02:28.782 who mainly live in North America and are primarily known 0:02:28.862 --> 0:02:33.022 and recognized for their simple living and conservative, old fashioned clothes. 0:02:33.782 --> 0:02:37.222 They follow the basic tenets of Christian faith and live 0:02:37.302 --> 0:02:40.662 their life according to the Bible, but within their world 0:02:41.062 --> 0:02:45.222 there are various subgroups, the most conservative being the Swartz 0:02:45.302 --> 0:02:48.782 and Trouber Amish, who live in central Ohio. They use 0:02:48.822 --> 0:02:52.902 wood stoves for cooking, windmills for water, and primarily live 0:02:52.902 --> 0:02:56.022 off the land. To visit one of their farms, you'd 0:02:56.022 --> 0:02:58.742 feel like you'd been transported back in time by a 0:02:58.742 --> 0:03:04.062 few centuries. They rarely talk to outsiders, which is why 0:03:04.102 --> 0:03:06.182 author Greg Olsen had his work cut out for him 0:03:06.262 --> 0:03:09.702 when he started his investigations into Ida's suspicious death for 0:03:09.782 --> 0:03:13.342 his latest book, The Amish Wife, especially given he was 0:03:13.382 --> 0:03:16.022 dredging up an alleged crime that was more than forty 0:03:16.062 --> 0:03:19.782 five years old. But slowly, with the help of his 0:03:19.862 --> 0:03:23.462 researcher Robin Lasson, a story of cover up, lies and 0:03:23.542 --> 0:03:27.062 an investigation that never stood a chance started to reveal itself. 0:03:27.742 --> 0:03:30.942 An alleged crime that had been buried in silence and 0:03:31.062 --> 0:03:35.222 secrets became impossible to ignore. To talk us through their findings, 0:03:35.622 --> 0:03:46.742 Robin joins us. Now, so people might have heard about 0:03:46.782 --> 0:03:49.902 the Amish community, but today we're talking about a particular 0:03:49.982 --> 0:03:54.142 subset within that who are even more conservative. Can you 0:03:54.342 --> 0:03:58.182 tell us about that? Who are this subset of the 0:03:58.222 --> 0:03:59.542 Amish community. 0:03:59.782 --> 0:04:04.822 That is the Schwarzin Trooper sac the Amish, and they, 0:04:05.342 --> 0:04:09.622 unlike other sects of the Amish, do not allow any 0:04:10.422 --> 0:04:15.142 battery operated devices. So when they're driving or with their 0:04:15.142 --> 0:04:19.182 buggies and their horses, they do not allow any type 0:04:19.222 --> 0:04:23.622 of battery operated devices. For reflectors on the back of them, 0:04:24.062 --> 0:04:26.582 you have to use certain types of pins to pin 0:04:26.622 --> 0:04:30.542 your dresses, as well as certain types of pins to 0:04:30.782 --> 0:04:34.742 pin the men's shirts. So it's the lowest order. 0:04:36.102 --> 0:04:39.582 So is the idea that you're living I guess like 0:04:39.702 --> 0:04:40.542 the olden days. 0:04:41.302 --> 0:04:45.182 Yes, the more simplistic your life, the closer you are 0:04:45.222 --> 0:04:45.582 to God. 0:04:46.062 --> 0:04:49.942 And is that the way Amish more generally are living 0:04:49.982 --> 0:04:52.462 their lives as well. It's just that some of the 0:04:53.022 --> 0:04:55.662 sections or factions do take a little bit more of 0:04:55.702 --> 0:04:57.542 the mod cons of modern life. 0:04:57.902 --> 0:05:01.302 Yes, some of them do and others don't. Some do 0:05:01.782 --> 0:05:06.902 drive cars, Some are more modernized, some are not. They 0:05:06.942 --> 0:05:10.622 will ride on a bus for a vacation. They will 0:05:10.622 --> 0:05:12.542 not have a car themselves, but they have a driver 0:05:12.702 --> 0:05:14.422 for their entire community. 0:05:15.182 --> 0:05:18.382 And is the Amish community quite prevalent in Ohio where 0:05:18.382 --> 0:05:19.102 this story is set. 0:05:19.782 --> 0:05:23.382 Oh, yes, there are a lot. That's the thing over 0:05:23.422 --> 0:05:26.902 in Ohio. When I first went over there, I couldn't 0:05:26.902 --> 0:05:29.582 believe it. It was as if I stepped back in 0:05:29.742 --> 0:05:35.182 time two hundred years. It was amazing. And the funny 0:05:35.182 --> 0:05:39.182 part is they're just like us. They make jokes, they 0:05:39.662 --> 0:05:43.422 love their children, they love their family, they cook, they clean. 0:05:44.062 --> 0:05:47.502 They just don't have the modernization of their homes that 0:05:48.102 --> 0:05:52.262 we do. With television and washer and dryers. So, for example, 0:05:52.302 --> 0:05:56.222 when you walk into an Amish family's home, the only 0:05:56.262 --> 0:05:58.542 thing you'll hear is probably the ticking of a clock, 0:05:59.182 --> 0:06:02.062 which sounds eerie because when you walk into someone else's home, 0:06:02.462 --> 0:06:08.022 you may hear a refrigerator running or their dishwasher, But 0:06:08.542 --> 0:06:11.262 when you walk into an Amish person's home, you only 0:06:11.302 --> 0:06:13.502 hear the tick of a clock. For the most part, 0:06:13.622 --> 0:06:17.742 there's nothing else running. So they're all over in Ohio 0:06:17.862 --> 0:06:20.262 and it was amazing to be able to go over 0:06:20.302 --> 0:06:23.422 there and see all these individuals for who they are, 0:06:23.582 --> 0:06:25.342 not just what we think they are. 0:06:25.822 --> 0:06:28.302 You said that some Amish drive cause, but do they 0:06:28.302 --> 0:06:32.022 interact with the outside world in terms of you know, hospitals, 0:06:32.102 --> 0:06:34.702 police stations, schools. 0:06:35.142 --> 0:06:38.582 I believe it depends on each individual family and what 0:06:38.822 --> 0:06:42.022 sect they are part of. I know that there are 0:06:42.222 --> 0:06:46.702 different Mennonites that will interact with the social norms, say 0:06:46.742 --> 0:06:49.582 going to a hospital and what have you. A lot 0:06:49.582 --> 0:06:51.982 of times when there is an emergency they will call 0:06:51.982 --> 0:06:55.382 on it, But when it comes to police, they like 0:06:55.582 --> 0:07:01.142 to in a way give their own justice amongst themselves. 0:07:01.182 --> 0:07:05.902 And they're very forgiving individuals. So if they don't need 0:07:05.942 --> 0:07:08.582 to call the police, they will not. But if they 0:07:08.582 --> 0:07:10.782 have to call, say someone to come and help them, 0:07:10.822 --> 0:07:15.822 if there's a fire or someone has injured themselves, they 0:07:15.902 --> 0:07:19.822 will call for help in those situations. But when it 0:07:19.862 --> 0:07:24.422 comes to their own justice, they would prefer to do 0:07:24.502 --> 0:07:25.742 that themselves. 0:07:26.022 --> 0:07:28.702 And I'm assuming that in this very strict faction that 0:07:28.702 --> 0:07:31.862 we're talking about today, they're even less likely to reach 0:07:31.902 --> 0:07:33.262 out to those kinds of places. 0:07:33.862 --> 0:07:36.542 Absolutely, yes, that is correct. 0:07:37.502 --> 0:07:40.622 Most people have preconceived notions about the Amish. They've got 0:07:40.662 --> 0:07:43.702 a very distinctive look. You can usually spot an Amish 0:07:43.702 --> 0:07:46.342 person by the way they're dressed. But how does the 0:07:46.382 --> 0:07:49.142 reality that you've experienced, you've got to know a lot 0:07:49.182 --> 0:07:53.382 of Amish people through this investigation, how did it differ 0:07:53.422 --> 0:07:55.742 from the stereotypes that we often see. 0:07:56.182 --> 0:07:59.542 I think it goes back to any stereotype of any individual. 0:08:00.142 --> 0:08:04.182 You're scared, you're nervous, you don't want to be judged. However, 0:08:04.302 --> 0:08:08.502 I can say when I first met this Amish community, 0:08:08.622 --> 0:08:10.342 when I went to go do all of these inner 0:08:10.742 --> 0:08:13.662 with Greg, They're giving you something to drink, and they're 0:08:13.662 --> 0:08:20.742 making jokes and they're so welcoming, and before you know it, 0:08:21.222 --> 0:08:25.582 the conversation's very organic and natural. They ask and answer 0:08:25.662 --> 0:08:28.982 questions just like we do. But you wouldn't think that 0:08:29.102 --> 0:08:32.302 if you hadn't met any of them. I think there's 0:08:32.382 --> 0:08:35.342 a preconceived notion that you know they're so godly they 0:08:35.382 --> 0:08:38.662 don't want to talk to anybody on the outside. However, 0:08:38.942 --> 0:08:44.022 they're very welcoming. They're very kind, they're sweet, and their children, 0:08:44.142 --> 0:08:48.022 oh my gosh, their children are just adorable. They run, 0:08:48.062 --> 0:08:51.102 they laugh, they play, and when they come and see 0:08:51.102 --> 0:08:53.262 someone that's got a cell phone or a watch on, 0:08:53.942 --> 0:08:56.822 they look at you almost like an alien. But they're 0:08:56.902 --> 0:09:00.222 so kind and sweet, and at the end of the 0:09:00.342 --> 0:09:03.302 day you realize you're both humans with the same needs 0:09:03.342 --> 0:09:06.102 and same wants, where we all just want to be 0:09:06.142 --> 0:09:09.902 accepted and loved throughout life, and that's who they are 0:09:10.102 --> 0:09:12.822 at their core. They're good human beings. 0:09:13.342 --> 0:09:16.262 What can you tell us about Ida Stutsman. She's the 0:09:16.302 --> 0:09:18.782 main character of this story, and I'd love to know 0:09:18.782 --> 0:09:21.582 a bit about her background. How did she grow up, 0:09:21.622 --> 0:09:24.422 where was she from, what was her life like before 0:09:24.462 --> 0:09:25.462 she met her husband. 0:09:26.182 --> 0:09:29.502 She grew up in Ohio along with Eli, and they 0:09:29.502 --> 0:09:32.942 were part of the same sect, and she had met 0:09:32.942 --> 0:09:35.862 Eli when she was really young and fell in love 0:09:35.902 --> 0:09:39.462 with him. Eli kind of won in a sense, so 0:09:39.662 --> 0:09:43.702 his royal oats if that's such a thing still, But 0:09:43.742 --> 0:09:46.022 back then that's what he wanted to do. He went out, 0:09:46.062 --> 0:09:51.662 he experienced things, and then Ida still waited for him. 0:09:51.742 --> 0:09:54.822 She loved him. She thought that he was the be 0:09:54.982 --> 0:09:57.862 all and all. He was handsome, he was kind, he 0:09:57.982 --> 0:10:00.862 was generous, and it broke her heart when he ended 0:10:00.942 --> 0:10:05.502 up leaving the Amish, but she still stayed with all 0:10:05.542 --> 0:10:07.262 of her faith and all of her hope that he 0:10:07.302 --> 0:10:11.462 would come back to her, and eventually he did. And 0:10:11.662 --> 0:10:15.582 Ida was one of several siblings, grew up in a 0:10:15.662 --> 0:10:20.062 loving family. She had lots of nieces and nephews, and 0:10:20.102 --> 0:10:22.902 by all accounts from everyone that knew her, she was 0:10:23.102 --> 0:10:26.822 just sweet. She was kind, she was generous. She would 0:10:26.902 --> 0:10:29.822 do anything for you if you needed it, and that's 0:10:30.062 --> 0:10:34.742 how the Amish work, and she embraced the Amish life, 0:10:34.982 --> 0:10:37.462 and that's who she was at her core, was just 0:10:37.582 --> 0:10:40.782 a lovely human being and wanted to be a mother 0:10:40.862 --> 0:10:42.502 and wanted to be a great wife. 0:10:43.382 --> 0:10:45.142 Did her family have the same opinion of. 0:10:45.182 --> 0:10:48.222 Him in the beginning, No, they didn't. They thought in 0:10:48.302 --> 0:10:51.742 today's terms. She could do better because Eli had a 0:10:51.742 --> 0:10:55.622 little bit of a past where he had lied about 0:10:55.662 --> 0:11:00.662 certain instances that had taken place, as well as just 0:11:00.742 --> 0:11:06.782 his reputation not necessarily being a womanizer, but gossiping. You know, 0:11:06.822 --> 0:11:10.942 there were times where he would tell other friends of friends. 0:11:11.422 --> 0:11:13.542 And then again, I want to preface this. It's like 0:11:13.582 --> 0:11:17.062 the game of telephone. You tell one person, they tell another. 0:11:17.302 --> 0:11:21.862 The story can change. But the general consensus was he 0:11:22.062 --> 0:11:28.022 had talked about Ida and their sexual experiences or the 0:11:28.062 --> 0:11:31.742 way that they try to interact physically with one another, 0:11:32.022 --> 0:11:35.702 and they didn't like that. The way that Ida was 0:11:35.782 --> 0:11:39.662 she was very conservative, just like the faction of her 0:11:39.742 --> 0:11:44.782 Amish community, and so her family did not agree with 0:11:44.862 --> 0:11:48.422 her wanting to be with Eli. But at the end 0:11:48.462 --> 0:11:51.862 of the day, Eli came back into the fold and 0:11:52.582 --> 0:11:57.142 they gave them their blessing for them to be married. 0:11:58.462 --> 0:12:00.462 Let's talk about that time that he left the Amish, 0:12:00.462 --> 0:12:04.062 because it was nineteen seventy two and he went into 0:12:04.062 --> 0:12:06.502 the modern world. I guess what did he do in 0:12:06.502 --> 0:12:07.342 that time period. 0:12:08.102 --> 0:12:10.782 He did a lot of different things. He did seeing 0:12:11.022 --> 0:12:15.902 dated other people, He got a driver's license, started going 0:12:15.942 --> 0:12:19.622 out to bars and gambling. Things of that nature where 0:12:19.742 --> 0:12:22.582 you wouldn't think that he would have done it because 0:12:22.622 --> 0:12:26.102 of the strict faction that he was in. But he did, 0:12:27.062 --> 0:12:30.942 and I'd sat back waiting for him. And in the 0:12:30.942 --> 0:12:35.302 book Abandoned Prayers, it touches more on what Eli did 0:12:35.582 --> 0:12:38.542 during those times, and there's several different accounts of what 0:12:38.582 --> 0:12:42.622 he did or may not have done, but the general 0:12:42.662 --> 0:12:46.102 consensus was he pretty much partied. 0:12:46.742 --> 0:12:48.502 And I think this is an important pot to bring 0:12:48.502 --> 0:12:51.342 in now, because he wasn't just having relationships with women, 0:12:51.542 --> 0:12:51.742 was he. 0:12:52.302 --> 0:12:55.102 No, he wasn't. And you know, it doesn't matter whether 0:12:55.142 --> 0:13:01.142 you're gay, straight, bisexual, trans anything of that nature. However, 0:13:01.302 --> 0:13:04.902 with Eli, he was gay, and I can't speak for 0:13:04.942 --> 0:13:09.302 anyone else, but I can understand how it possibly would 0:13:09.302 --> 0:13:13.382 have been hard for him to be himself and not Era, 0:13:14.142 --> 0:13:18.542 let alone, in that religious faction. That's the thing. It 0:13:18.702 --> 0:13:22.862 was not accepted, it was not tolerated, and even back 0:13:22.902 --> 0:13:25.582 then in the seventies, the thing was it still wasn't 0:13:25.622 --> 0:13:27.822 tolerated in the United States. 0:13:28.222 --> 0:13:31.782 So Noah, was his sexuality accepted in the Amish community 0:13:31.862 --> 0:13:33.222 or outside of the Amish community. 0:13:33.782 --> 0:13:37.142 No, it wasn't. And it's a conundrum when you look 0:13:37.182 --> 0:13:39.942 at it because you're upset with this man through the 0:13:39.982 --> 0:13:43.342 crimes that he committed, and yet there's a bit of 0:13:43.422 --> 0:13:47.702 humanity and compassion for maybe the life he lived. You're 0:13:47.782 --> 0:13:51.982 not saying that you're giving an excuse for the crimes. 0:13:52.622 --> 0:13:54.942 But in that day and age, I think it was 0:13:54.982 --> 0:14:00.262 hard for anyone in America to be openly gay, let 0:14:00.302 --> 0:14:03.662 alone in a strict faction of the Amish community, which 0:14:03.702 --> 0:14:06.342 is the lowest order of it that is not even 0:14:06.382 --> 0:14:10.222 accepting of using batteries, let alone of same sex relations. 0:14:10.782 --> 0:14:13.702 But in the end, he had his fun, I guess 0:14:13.782 --> 0:14:16.742 in the modern world, and decided to go back to 0:14:16.822 --> 0:14:19.742 the Amish community and get married to Ida. 0:14:19.862 --> 0:14:22.942 He did. He came back and got married to Ida, 0:14:23.302 --> 0:14:26.262 and prior to getting married Ida, he had to get 0:14:26.262 --> 0:14:30.302 their family's blessing, like we talked about, and they weren't 0:14:30.462 --> 0:14:33.942 for it, but that's what Ida wanted, and so they 0:14:33.942 --> 0:14:37.142 did the normal thing that was allowed back then, which 0:14:37.422 --> 0:14:42.182 was both parties that were getting married had to take tests, 0:14:42.302 --> 0:14:44.982 medical tests to make sure that they didn't have any 0:14:45.542 --> 0:14:50.342 diseases so to speak. Nowadays, that's not required that back 0:14:50.342 --> 0:14:54.862 then they did actually require that, and so we don't 0:14:54.942 --> 0:14:59.062 know what Eli had However, when he came back to 0:14:59.142 --> 0:15:02.702 announce whether his test came back clean or not clean, 0:15:03.142 --> 0:15:05.902 he said that he had bad blood, but he was 0:15:05.942 --> 0:15:08.982 going to go to someone that would fix it, and 0:15:09.302 --> 0:15:11.262 in the end that's what he did. I just came 0:15:11.302 --> 0:15:15.062 back completely fine, but Eli's test did not, and so 0:15:15.142 --> 0:15:18.662 he went back to someone and he was given a 0:15:18.782 --> 0:15:23.182 tea that then changed his blood and made it pure again. 0:15:23.542 --> 0:15:25.702 Reading between the lines, what are we talking about sexually 0:15:25.702 --> 0:15:27.742 transmitted diseases? What was in his blood? 0:15:28.022 --> 0:15:33.022 Yes? Yes, okay, some states years ago. I don't think 0:15:33.022 --> 0:15:36.022 there are many now that require this. But when a 0:15:36.062 --> 0:15:38.222 man and a woman wanted to get married, they had 0:15:38.262 --> 0:15:41.702 to go and take a test or venereal diseases so 0:15:41.742 --> 0:15:46.142 that way they did not spread anymore. And that was 0:15:46.222 --> 0:15:49.022 required back in Ohio, in the county that they lived 0:15:49.062 --> 0:15:52.502 in at the time, and they did that, and Eli's 0:15:52.582 --> 0:15:57.302 came back tainted or with some type of infection. 0:15:57.542 --> 0:16:00.262 And he managed to get the test overlooked. 0:16:00.742 --> 0:16:03.862 Well, it wasn't just overlooked. What happened was what he 0:16:04.062 --> 0:16:07.822 said and what we have received in interviews, and a 0:16:07.822 --> 0:16:10.782 lot of this stems back to Greg's original race that 0:16:10.822 --> 0:16:13.062 he did in his first book. That he ever did 0:16:13.102 --> 0:16:16.902 abandon prayers. What he said he did was he went 0:16:17.102 --> 0:16:20.942 to a natural path that gave him a tea that 0:16:21.142 --> 0:16:24.582 cured him right, and then he retook the test and 0:16:24.782 --> 0:16:25.822 everything was fine. 0:16:26.622 --> 0:16:30.262 It feels like that story is giving me a taste 0:16:30.342 --> 0:16:35.702 of the lies that Eli liked to spin exactly. So, 0:16:35.902 --> 0:16:39.982 they get married, they get pregnant pretty quickly. Was that 0:16:40.022 --> 0:16:42.622 a happy time for them as a couple? Was married 0:16:42.662 --> 0:16:44.422 life everything I'd hoped it would be. 0:16:45.182 --> 0:16:49.582 Unfortunately No. On the outside looking in, everyone thought it 0:16:49.622 --> 0:16:53.062 was perfect. She had this perfect husband, she was pregnant, 0:16:53.102 --> 0:16:56.782 she was getting a house, and she was starting a family. 0:16:57.262 --> 0:17:00.222 But when you look beyond the confides of just what's 0:17:00.222 --> 0:17:02.662 on the outside, there was a lot more going on, 0:17:02.862 --> 0:17:04.982 just like what we see on Instagram to date. And 0:17:05.462 --> 0:17:07.942 I think she still put up a front of that 0:17:08.142 --> 0:17:12.262 in the beginning with her relationship with Eli, because I 0:17:12.262 --> 0:17:15.502 think it stems back to also, you know, girls, we 0:17:15.742 --> 0:17:17.942 fight with our parents, we want to be with them, 0:17:18.422 --> 0:17:20.982 but once we find out that our parents what they said, 0:17:21.102 --> 0:17:23.622 I told you so, you don't want to admit it. 0:17:23.702 --> 0:17:25.622 You want to believe that that person you fell in 0:17:25.662 --> 0:17:29.462 love with is still there, and you weren't wrong and 0:17:29.822 --> 0:17:35.062 Ida behind closed doors. The thing was Eli was very absent. 0:17:35.222 --> 0:17:39.982 He wasn't there for her. He wasn't a partner in 0:17:40.022 --> 0:17:44.022 her day to day life. And it's very evident through 0:17:44.142 --> 0:17:48.662 interviews as you see the progression of Ida's life with 0:17:48.822 --> 0:17:53.542 Eli first getting married to him, being excited to the 0:17:53.582 --> 0:17:57.262 tragedy that fell upon her. Later on, you could see 0:17:57.262 --> 0:18:01.462 the progression of it where she started to become unhappy 0:18:02.182 --> 0:18:05.742 and saw Eli for who he was versus what she 0:18:06.022 --> 0:18:07.902 hoped he would have been for her. 0:18:08.302 --> 0:18:11.822 So she was raising this some Daniel or Denny as 0:18:11.822 --> 0:18:13.742 he was known, basically by herself. 0:18:14.102 --> 0:18:18.862 Basically by herself, she was and I'm a mother. Your 0:18:18.942 --> 0:18:23.702 kids are your life, so you'll do anything for them. However, 0:18:23.942 --> 0:18:28.582 when your partner is absent, I think that adds a 0:18:28.582 --> 0:18:32.542 different element to it, where you want them to be present, 0:18:32.742 --> 0:18:36.382 not just for your own peace of mind, but also 0:18:36.622 --> 0:18:39.622 as that parent. Their belief is a child should have 0:18:39.702 --> 0:18:43.462 two parents, They should be there, they should be teaching them, 0:18:43.942 --> 0:18:46.982 And she was teaching him, but she also wanted him 0:18:47.022 --> 0:18:51.222 to teach him the things that maybe she couldn't that 0:18:51.342 --> 0:18:54.622 Eli could, whether it was building a milk cow or 0:18:55.302 --> 0:18:58.302 he was so little, but still just being around a father. 0:18:58.822 --> 0:19:01.622 She wanted that for her son, and she didn't get it. 0:19:02.502 --> 0:19:05.702 And divorce was that something that was allowed in her 0:19:06.182 --> 0:19:07.462 fection of Amish. 0:19:07.742 --> 0:19:12.062 Divorce was never an option in that community, unfortunately. 0:19:13.022 --> 0:19:16.142 So in nineteen seventy seven she was pregnant again with 0:19:16.222 --> 0:19:19.862 her second child. She was twenty six, so still quite young. 0:19:20.582 --> 0:19:23.142 But she died in the July of that year. I 0:19:23.182 --> 0:19:25.902 want you to take us to the day, the day 0:19:25.942 --> 0:19:29.382 before the night. What happened during that day in the 0:19:29.462 --> 0:19:30.342 laid up to her death. 0:19:31.662 --> 0:19:35.982 So that day Eli had to go into town and 0:19:36.102 --> 0:19:39.662 he went in his horse and buggy. He had left 0:19:40.222 --> 0:19:44.662 Ida and Danny at home alone, along with their farm hand, 0:19:45.342 --> 0:19:50.462 which was another farm hand boy named Eli, but he 0:19:50.622 --> 0:19:54.902 was there with Ida and the baby. And Eli was 0:19:54.942 --> 0:19:59.222 coming home late that afternoon. According to police reports, it 0:19:59.302 --> 0:20:01.822 was around supper time, so this would have been around 0:20:01.902 --> 0:20:05.902 four or five in the afternoon, and as he's coming 0:20:05.942 --> 0:20:11.342 down the road to his home, he sees lightning strike 0:20:11.582 --> 0:20:16.022 his barn on his property. He hurries back home as 0:20:16.062 --> 0:20:20.142 fast as he can, and all the while Ida and 0:20:20.182 --> 0:20:24.302 the other farmhand, Junior, are on the property. And Ida 0:20:24.422 --> 0:20:27.422 had seen that there was lightning and whatnot, but nothing 0:20:27.502 --> 0:20:30.062 on the property. But she did ask the farman to 0:20:30.102 --> 0:20:33.102 come inside because he had been on the ladder and working, 0:20:33.742 --> 0:20:36.342 and this was a young boy that she didn't want injured, 0:20:36.422 --> 0:20:40.262 so she had him come inside. Shortly after, Eli comes 0:20:40.262 --> 0:20:43.862 home and says there was lightning that struck the barn. 0:20:44.502 --> 0:20:48.462 He tells everyone this, and you know, it's this big, 0:20:48.542 --> 0:20:53.782 elaborate story, and Junior goes into the barn with him 0:20:53.862 --> 0:20:58.062 as well, and it's almost as if Eli is trying 0:20:58.062 --> 0:21:02.142 to get Junior to believe his lies. See look here, 0:21:02.302 --> 0:21:05.902 the glass is broken. See the smoldering of the hay. 0:21:06.462 --> 0:21:10.182 There was a fire here, that's where lightning struck. Things 0:21:10.262 --> 0:21:13.742 like that, And even the farmhand at the time didn't 0:21:13.782 --> 0:21:15.902 believe it, even though he was a young boy. He 0:21:15.982 --> 0:21:19.782 thought it was so strange. And through this time Eli 0:21:19.862 --> 0:21:24.142 had claimed that he was going back every thirty minutes 0:21:24.342 --> 0:21:27.542 to check on the barn to see if the fire 0:21:27.622 --> 0:21:30.182 had smoldered, or just to check on the fire of 0:21:30.222 --> 0:21:34.022 the embers, even though there wasn't any. He told that 0:21:34.142 --> 0:21:38.302 to the police later on, and that evening, Tim Blausser, 0:21:38.422 --> 0:21:41.902 an attorney that he had met through a family friend, 0:21:42.662 --> 0:21:45.782 came over to the house to draft their will. 0:21:46.182 --> 0:21:46.942 Strange timing. 0:21:47.702 --> 0:21:54.462 Yes, that's the thing. It's so coincidental that an attorney 0:21:54.502 --> 0:21:56.942 that he meets through a friend of a friend through 0:21:57.342 --> 0:21:59.942 a place that he's working comes over to the house 0:21:59.982 --> 0:22:03.582 that evening and is like, Hey, let's go out and 0:22:03.622 --> 0:22:05.662 do your will while your wife is sitting here. 0:22:06.542 --> 0:22:10.022 Okay, So they have this weed story about Latining hitting 0:22:10.022 --> 0:22:14.102 a bomb, They ride up their wills, and then seemingly 0:22:14.942 --> 0:22:18.542 they go to bed. What happens next after midnight? Let's 0:22:18.662 --> 0:22:22.382 talk about it through Ali's eyes? What does he say 0:22:22.542 --> 0:22:23.422 happened next? 0:22:24.222 --> 0:22:27.942 So Eli claims that he woke up, and I would 0:22:27.982 --> 0:22:31.982 like to say Eli has multiple different stories of what 0:22:32.142 --> 0:22:36.062 happened that night, but the one that stayed consistent was 0:22:36.382 --> 0:22:40.502 he woke up around midnight to Ida waking him up 0:22:40.662 --> 0:22:43.462 saying there's an explosion at the barn. There's a fire, 0:22:44.062 --> 0:22:48.582 and he wakes up, goes downstairs, and they both go 0:22:48.662 --> 0:22:53.142 to the barn and they attempt to put out the fire. However, 0:22:53.822 --> 0:22:58.822 Ida does not survive that. And then the farm hand Junior, 0:22:58.902 --> 0:23:03.342 comes down and sees Ida on the ground and sees 0:23:03.422 --> 0:23:06.462 Eli running, and Eli tells him, you need to go 0:23:06.542 --> 0:23:09.782 get help, go to the neighbor's house and do this, 0:23:10.102 --> 0:23:13.782 call the fire department, all of these different places. However, 0:23:13.902 --> 0:23:18.462 never mentions once that his wife is dead on the ground. 0:23:19.222 --> 0:23:24.742 And the boy finally asks and says, Eli, what about Ida. 0:23:24.942 --> 0:23:29.542 She's not moving. I think she's hurt, and he says, okay, fine, 0:23:29.742 --> 0:23:32.622 go at it and call the paramedics. It was almost 0:23:32.662 --> 0:23:37.182 an irritation the way the farmhand described it. He was 0:23:37.262 --> 0:23:40.422 irritated that he even asked about his wife. And so 0:23:40.582 --> 0:23:45.102 that is the event of what Eli said happened. However, 0:23:45.982 --> 0:23:51.662 after Greg's investigation through his book, that's not what took place. 0:23:56.582 --> 0:24:00.342 You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jimma Boss. 0:24:00.662 --> 0:24:03.622 Up next, we discover how more deaths are linked to 0:24:03.702 --> 0:24:13.622 Eli Stutsman, including that of his own son. Let's talk 0:24:13.662 --> 0:24:16.542 about some of the holes in a life story. 0:24:16.702 --> 0:24:17.942 First of all, there's a. 0:24:17.862 --> 0:24:21.302 Lot of conversation about what Ida was actually wearing when 0:24:21.302 --> 0:24:24.502 she was found dead on the floor. Why was that significant? 0:24:24.942 --> 0:24:28.902 That was significant because after the paramedics had found her dead, 0:24:29.142 --> 0:24:32.302 the thing was she was dressed in her day uniform, 0:24:32.942 --> 0:24:36.622 which can take anywhere from six to ten minutes, depending 0:24:36.622 --> 0:24:40.022 out how good you are on penny and they don't 0:24:40.102 --> 0:24:44.222 wear that to bed. They have nightwhere that they wear, 0:24:44.382 --> 0:24:46.382 just like us, we have nightgowns. We don't sleep in 0:24:46.382 --> 0:24:50.022 our normal clothes. So for Ida to wake up from 0:24:50.062 --> 0:24:54.622 a dead sleep at midnight, get dressed in her day 0:24:54.662 --> 0:24:58.902 clothes and go down and fight a fire doesn't make 0:24:58.942 --> 0:25:01.902 any sense. And every Amish woman that we spoke to 0:25:02.182 --> 0:25:06.742 about that had said no Amish woman would get dressed 0:25:06.862 --> 0:25:10.462 for that. They would run down in their NightWare to 0:25:11.182 --> 0:25:12.982 help mitigate the fire. 0:25:13.222 --> 0:25:16.222