1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:28,662 Speaker 1: recorded on It's just after Midnight On a warm summer 4 00:00:28,742 --> 00:00:32,462 Speaker 1: night in July nineteen seventy seven, on a farm in Ohio, 5 00:00:32,702 --> 00:00:36,502 Speaker 1: an Ida Stutsman wakes up her husband, Get up quick, 6 00:00:37,182 --> 00:00:41,862 Speaker 1: there's a fire in the barn. She alerts him. She 7 00:00:41,902 --> 00:00:44,502 Speaker 1: needs to save some milking equipment, She tells him before 8 00:00:44,582 --> 00:00:48,862 Speaker 1: rushing towards the flames. He follows her, heading towards the 9 00:00:48,902 --> 00:00:54,782 Speaker 1: blazing building, but Ida doesn't survive. A neighbor helps Eli 10 00:00:54,942 --> 00:00:58,342 Speaker 1: carry his pregnant wife's body from inside the milkhouse beside 11 00:00:58,382 --> 00:01:02,382 Speaker 1: the burning barn. She collapsed from a bad heart, he'd 12 00:01:02,462 --> 00:01:05,782 Speaker 1: later tell the coroner. The stress of the fire was 13 00:01:05,822 --> 00:01:10,662 Speaker 1: too much for her. From the very start, there were 14 00:01:10,662 --> 00:01:14,662 Speaker 1: holes in Eli's story, but the Stutsmans were part of 15 00:01:14,702 --> 00:01:18,342 Speaker 1: the Amish community, the very nature of their insular world. 16 00:01:18,782 --> 00:01:22,182 Speaker 1: When the suspicious nature of Ida's death went unspoken for 17 00:01:22,302 --> 00:01:27,062 Speaker 1: many years. After his wife's death, Eli left the Amish 18 00:01:27,062 --> 00:01:29,462 Speaker 1: way of life and took the couple's young son, Danny, 19 00:01:29,502 --> 00:01:33,822 Speaker 1: with him. Within a few years, at the age of nine, 20 00:01:33,942 --> 00:01:37,862 Speaker 1: Danny died too. In fact, there was a trail of 21 00:01:37,942 --> 00:01:42,342 Speaker 1: bodies that could be linked back to Eli Stutsman. But 22 00:01:42,382 --> 00:01:46,182 Speaker 1: he always had a story, an excuse, a version of 23 00:01:46,182 --> 00:01:50,742 Speaker 1: events he spun so confidently. But the truth always has 24 00:01:50,782 --> 00:01:55,542 Speaker 1: a way of revealing itself, and eventually some of Eli's 25 00:01:55,542 --> 00:02:10,342 Speaker 1: stories at least caught up with him. I'm Jemma Bah 26 00:02:10,742 --> 00:02:14,262 Speaker 1: and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast 27 00:02:14,382 --> 00:02:17,782 Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 28 00:02:17,822 --> 00:02:21,102 Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. The Amish are 29 00:02:21,142 --> 00:02:25,142 Speaker 1: a distinctive Christian subculture of about two hundred thousand people 30 00:02:25,422 --> 00:02:28,782 Speaker 1: who mainly live in North America and are primarily known 31 00:02:28,862 --> 00:02:33,022 Speaker 1: and recognized for their simple living and conservative, old fashioned clothes. 32 00:02:33,782 --> 00:02:37,222 Speaker 1: They follow the basic tenets of Christian faith and live 33 00:02:37,302 --> 00:02:40,662 Speaker 1: their life according to the Bible, but within their world 34 00:02:41,062 --> 00:02:45,222 Speaker 1: there are various subgroups, the most conservative being the Swartz 35 00:02:45,302 --> 00:02:48,782 Speaker 1: and Trouber Amish, who live in central Ohio. They use 36 00:02:48,822 --> 00:02:52,902 Speaker 1: wood stoves for cooking, windmills for water, and primarily live 37 00:02:52,902 --> 00:02:56,022 Speaker 1: off the land. To visit one of their farms, you'd 38 00:02:56,022 --> 00:02:58,742 Speaker 1: feel like you'd been transported back in time by a 39 00:02:58,742 --> 00:03:04,062 Speaker 1: few centuries. They rarely talk to outsiders, which is why 40 00:03:04,102 --> 00:03:06,182 Speaker 1: author Greg Olsen had his work cut out for him 41 00:03:06,262 --> 00:03:09,702 Speaker 1: when he started his investigations into Ida's suspicious death for 42 00:03:09,782 --> 00:03:13,342 Speaker 1: his latest book, The Amish Wife, especially given he was 43 00:03:13,382 --> 00:03:16,022 Speaker 1: dredging up an alleged crime that was more than forty 44 00:03:16,062 --> 00:03:19,782 Speaker 1: five years old. But slowly, with the help of his 45 00:03:19,862 --> 00:03:23,462 Speaker 1: researcher Robin Lasson, a story of cover up, lies and 46 00:03:23,542 --> 00:03:27,062 Speaker 1: an investigation that never stood a chance started to reveal itself. 47 00:03:27,742 --> 00:03:30,942 Speaker 1: An alleged crime that had been buried in silence and 48 00:03:31,062 --> 00:03:35,222 Speaker 1: secrets became impossible to ignore. To talk us through their findings, 49 00:03:35,622 --> 00:03:46,742 Speaker 1: Robin joins us. Now, so people might have heard about 50 00:03:46,782 --> 00:03:49,902 Speaker 1: the Amish community, but today we're talking about a particular 51 00:03:49,982 --> 00:03:54,142 Speaker 1: subset within that who are even more conservative. Can you 52 00:03:54,342 --> 00:03:58,182 Speaker 1: tell us about that? Who are this subset of the 53 00:03:58,222 --> 00:03:59,542 Speaker 1: Amish community. 54 00:03:59,782 --> 00:04:04,822 Speaker 2: That is the Schwarzin Trooper sac the Amish, and they, 55 00:04:05,342 --> 00:04:09,622 Speaker 2: unlike other sects of the Amish, do not allow any 56 00:04:10,422 --> 00:04:15,142 Speaker 2: battery operated devices. So when they're driving or with their 57 00:04:15,142 --> 00:04:19,182 Speaker 2: buggies and their horses, they do not allow any type 58 00:04:19,222 --> 00:04:23,622 Speaker 2: of battery operated devices. For reflectors on the back of them, 59 00:04:24,062 --> 00:04:26,582 Speaker 2: you have to use certain types of pins to pin 60 00:04:26,622 --> 00:04:30,542 Speaker 2: your dresses, as well as certain types of pins to 61 00:04:30,782 --> 00:04:34,742 Speaker 2: pin the men's shirts. So it's the lowest order. 62 00:04:36,102 --> 00:04:39,582 Speaker 1: So is the idea that you're living I guess like 63 00:04:39,702 --> 00:04:40,542 Speaker 1: the olden days. 64 00:04:41,302 --> 00:04:45,182 Speaker 2: Yes, the more simplistic your life, the closer you are 65 00:04:45,222 --> 00:04:45,582 Speaker 2: to God. 66 00:04:46,062 --> 00:04:49,942 Speaker 1: And is that the way Amish more generally are living 67 00:04:49,982 --> 00:04:52,462 Speaker 1: their lives as well. It's just that some of the 68 00:04:53,022 --> 00:04:55,662 Speaker 1: sections or factions do take a little bit more of 69 00:04:55,702 --> 00:04:57,542 Speaker 1: the mod cons of modern life. 70 00:04:57,902 --> 00:05:01,302 Speaker 2: Yes, some of them do and others don't. Some do 71 00:05:01,782 --> 00:05:06,902 Speaker 2: drive cars, Some are more modernized, some are not. They 72 00:05:06,942 --> 00:05:10,622 Speaker 2: will ride on a bus for a vacation. They will 73 00:05:10,622 --> 00:05:12,542 Speaker 2: not have a car themselves, but they have a driver 74 00:05:12,702 --> 00:05:14,422 Speaker 2: for their entire community. 75 00:05:15,182 --> 00:05:18,382 Speaker 1: And is the Amish community quite prevalent in Ohio where 76 00:05:18,382 --> 00:05:19,102 Speaker 1: this story is set. 77 00:05:19,782 --> 00:05:23,382 Speaker 2: Oh, yes, there are a lot. That's the thing over 78 00:05:23,422 --> 00:05:26,902 Speaker 2: in Ohio. When I first went over there, I couldn't 79 00:05:26,902 --> 00:05:29,582 Speaker 2: believe it. It was as if I stepped back in 80 00:05:29,742 --> 00:05:35,182 Speaker 2: time two hundred years. It was amazing. And the funny 81 00:05:35,182 --> 00:05:39,182 Speaker 2: part is they're just like us. They make jokes, they 82 00:05:39,662 --> 00:05:43,422 Speaker 2: love their children, they love their family, they cook, they clean. 83 00:05:44,062 --> 00:05:47,502 Speaker 2: They just don't have the modernization of their homes that 84 00:05:48,102 --> 00:05:52,262 Speaker 2: we do. With television and washer and dryers. So, for example, 85 00:05:52,302 --> 00:05:56,222 Speaker 2: when you walk into an Amish family's home, the only 86 00:05:56,262 --> 00:05:58,542 Speaker 2: thing you'll hear is probably the ticking of a clock, 87 00:05:59,182 --> 00:06:02,062 Speaker 2: which sounds eerie because when you walk into someone else's home, 88 00:06:02,462 --> 00:06:08,022 Speaker 2: you may hear a refrigerator running or their dishwasher, But 89 00:06:08,542 --> 00:06:11,262 Speaker 2: when you walk into an Amish person's home, you only 90 00:06:11,302 --> 00:06:13,502 Speaker 2: hear the tick of a clock. For the most part, 91 00:06:13,622 --> 00:06:17,742 Speaker 2: there's nothing else running. So they're all over in Ohio 92 00:06:17,862 --> 00:06:20,262 Speaker 2: and it was amazing to be able to go over 93 00:06:20,302 --> 00:06:23,422 Speaker 2: there and see all these individuals for who they are, 94 00:06:23,582 --> 00:06:25,342 Speaker 2: not just what we think they are. 95 00:06:25,822 --> 00:06:28,302 Speaker 1: You said that some Amish drive cause, but do they 96 00:06:28,302 --> 00:06:32,022 Speaker 1: interact with the outside world in terms of you know, hospitals, 97 00:06:32,102 --> 00:06:34,702 Speaker 1: police stations, schools. 98 00:06:35,142 --> 00:06:38,582 Speaker 2: I believe it depends on each individual family and what 99 00:06:38,822 --> 00:06:42,022 Speaker 2: sect they are part of. I know that there are 100 00:06:42,222 --> 00:06:46,702 Speaker 2: different Mennonites that will interact with the social norms, say 101 00:06:46,742 --> 00:06:49,582 Speaker 2: going to a hospital and what have you. A lot 102 00:06:49,582 --> 00:06:51,982 Speaker 2: of times when there is an emergency they will call 103 00:06:51,982 --> 00:06:55,382 Speaker 2: on it, But when it comes to police, they like 104 00:06:55,582 --> 00:07:01,142 Speaker 2: to in a way give their own justice amongst themselves. 105 00:07:01,182 --> 00:07:05,902 Speaker 2: And they're very forgiving individuals. So if they don't need 106 00:07:05,942 --> 00:07:08,582 Speaker 2: to call the police, they will not. But if they 107 00:07:08,582 --> 00:07:10,782 Speaker 2: have to call, say someone to come and help them, 108 00:07:10,822 --> 00:07:15,822 Speaker 2: if there's a fire or someone has injured themselves, they 109 00:07:15,902 --> 00:07:19,822 Speaker 2: will call for help in those situations. But when it 110 00:07:19,862 --> 00:07:24,422 Speaker 2: comes to their own justice, they would prefer to do 111 00:07:24,502 --> 00:07:25,742 Speaker 2: that themselves. 112 00:07:26,022 --> 00:07:28,702 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that in this very strict faction that 113 00:07:28,702 --> 00:07:31,862 Speaker 1: we're talking about today, they're even less likely to reach 114 00:07:31,902 --> 00:07:33,262 Speaker 1: out to those kinds of places. 115 00:07:33,862 --> 00:07:36,542 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, that is correct. 116 00:07:37,502 --> 00:07:40,622 Speaker 1: Most people have preconceived notions about the Amish. They've got 117 00:07:40,662 --> 00:07:43,702 Speaker 1: a very distinctive look. You can usually spot an Amish 118 00:07:43,702 --> 00:07:46,342 Speaker 1: person by the way they're dressed. But how does the 119 00:07:46,382 --> 00:07:49,142 Speaker 1: reality that you've experienced, you've got to know a lot 120 00:07:49,182 --> 00:07:53,382 Speaker 1: of Amish people through this investigation, how did it differ 121 00:07:53,422 --> 00:07:55,742 Speaker 1: from the stereotypes that we often see. 122 00:07:56,182 --> 00:07:59,542 Speaker 2: I think it goes back to any stereotype of any individual. 123 00:08:00,142 --> 00:08:04,182 Speaker 2: You're scared, you're nervous, you don't want to be judged. However, 124 00:08:04,302 --> 00:08:08,502 Speaker 2: I can say when I first met this Amish community, 125 00:08:08,622 --> 00:08:10,342 Speaker 2: when I went to go do all of these inner 126 00:08:10,742 --> 00:08:13,662 Speaker 2: with Greg, They're giving you something to drink, and they're 127 00:08:13,662 --> 00:08:20,742 Speaker 2: making jokes and they're so welcoming, and before you know it, 128 00:08:21,222 --> 00:08:25,582 Speaker 2: the conversation's very organic and natural. They ask and answer 129 00:08:25,662 --> 00:08:28,982 Speaker 2: questions just like we do. But you wouldn't think that 130 00:08:29,102 --> 00:08:32,302 Speaker 2: if you hadn't met any of them. I think there's 131 00:08:32,382 --> 00:08:35,342 Speaker 2: a preconceived notion that you know they're so godly they 132 00:08:35,382 --> 00:08:38,662 Speaker 2: don't want to talk to anybody on the outside. However, 133 00:08:38,942 --> 00:08:44,022 Speaker 2: they're very welcoming. They're very kind, they're sweet, and their children, 134 00:08:44,142 --> 00:08:48,022 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, their children are just adorable. They run, 135 00:08:48,062 --> 00:08:51,102 Speaker 2: they laugh, they play, and when they come and see 136 00:08:51,102 --> 00:08:53,262 Speaker 2: someone that's got a cell phone or a watch on, 137 00:08:53,942 --> 00:08:56,822 Speaker 2: they look at you almost like an alien. But they're 138 00:08:56,902 --> 00:09:00,222 Speaker 2: so kind and sweet, and at the end of the 139 00:09:00,342 --> 00:09:03,302 Speaker 2: day you realize you're both humans with the same needs 140 00:09:03,342 --> 00:09:06,102 Speaker 2: and same wants, where we all just want to be 141 00:09:06,142 --> 00:09:09,902 Speaker 2: accepted and loved throughout life, and that's who they are 142 00:09:10,102 --> 00:09:12,822 Speaker 2: at their core. They're good human beings. 143 00:09:13,342 --> 00:09:16,262 Speaker 1: What can you tell us about Ida Stutsman. She's the 144 00:09:16,302 --> 00:09:18,782 Speaker 1: main character of this story, and I'd love to know 145 00:09:18,782 --> 00:09:21,582 Speaker 1: a bit about her background. How did she grow up, 146 00:09:21,622 --> 00:09:24,422 Speaker 1: where was she from, what was her life like before 147 00:09:24,462 --> 00:09:25,462 Speaker 1: she met her husband. 148 00:09:26,182 --> 00:09:29,502 Speaker 2: She grew up in Ohio along with Eli, and they 149 00:09:29,502 --> 00:09:32,942 Speaker 2: were part of the same sect, and she had met 150 00:09:32,942 --> 00:09:35,862 Speaker 2: Eli when she was really young and fell in love 151 00:09:35,902 --> 00:09:39,462 Speaker 2: with him. Eli kind of won in a sense, so 152 00:09:39,662 --> 00:09:43,702 Speaker 2: his royal oats if that's such a thing still, But 153 00:09:43,742 --> 00:09:46,022 Speaker 2: back then that's what he wanted to do. He went out, 154 00:09:46,062 --> 00:09:51,662 Speaker 2: he experienced things, and then Ida still waited for him. 155 00:09:51,742 --> 00:09:54,822 Speaker 2: She loved him. She thought that he was the be 156 00:09:54,982 --> 00:09:57,862 Speaker 2: all and all. He was handsome, he was kind, he 157 00:09:57,982 --> 00:10:00,862 Speaker 2: was generous, and it broke her heart when he ended 158 00:10:00,942 --> 00:10:05,502 Speaker 2: up leaving the Amish, but she still stayed with all 159 00:10:05,542 --> 00:10:07,262 Speaker 2: of her faith and all of her hope that he 160 00:10:07,302 --> 00:10:11,462 Speaker 2: would come back to her, and eventually he did. And 161 00:10:11,662 --> 00:10:15,582 Speaker 2: Ida was one of several siblings, grew up in a 162 00:10:15,662 --> 00:10:20,062 Speaker 2: loving family. She had lots of nieces and nephews, and 163 00:10:20,102 --> 00:10:22,902 Speaker 2: by all accounts from everyone that knew her, she was 164 00:10:23,102 --> 00:10:26,822 Speaker 2: just sweet. She was kind, she was generous. She would 165 00:10:26,902 --> 00:10:29,822 Speaker 2: do anything for you if you needed it, and that's 166 00:10:30,062 --> 00:10:34,742 Speaker 2: how the Amish work, and she embraced the Amish life, 167 00:10:34,982 --> 00:10:37,462 Speaker 2: and that's who she was at her core, was just 168 00:10:37,582 --> 00:10:40,782 Speaker 2: a lovely human being and wanted to be a mother 169 00:10:40,862 --> 00:10:42,502 Speaker 2: and wanted to be a great wife. 170 00:10:43,382 --> 00:10:45,142 Speaker 1: Did her family have the same opinion of. 171 00:10:45,182 --> 00:10:48,222 Speaker 2: Him in the beginning, No, they didn't. They thought in 172 00:10:48,302 --> 00:10:51,742 Speaker 2: today's terms. She could do better because Eli had a 173 00:10:51,742 --> 00:10:55,622 Speaker 2: little bit of a past where he had lied about 174 00:10:55,662 --> 00:11:00,662 Speaker 2: certain instances that had taken place, as well as just 175 00:11:00,742 --> 00:11:06,782 Speaker 2: his reputation not necessarily being a womanizer, but gossiping. You know, 176 00:11:06,822 --> 00:11:10,942 Speaker 2: there were times where he would tell other friends of friends. 177 00:11:11,422 --> 00:11:13,542 Speaker 2: And then again, I want to preface this. It's like 178 00:11:13,582 --> 00:11:17,062 Speaker 2: the game of telephone. You tell one person, they tell another. 179 00:11:17,302 --> 00:11:21,862 Speaker 2: The story can change. But the general consensus was he 180 00:11:22,062 --> 00:11:28,022 Speaker 2: had talked about Ida and their sexual experiences or the 181 00:11:28,062 --> 00:11:31,742 Speaker 2: way that they try to interact physically with one another, 182 00:11:32,022 --> 00:11:35,702 Speaker 2: and they didn't like that. The way that Ida was 183 00:11:35,782 --> 00:11:39,662 Speaker 2: she was very conservative, just like the faction of her 184 00:11:39,742 --> 00:11:44,782 Speaker 2: Amish community, and so her family did not agree with 185 00:11:44,862 --> 00:11:48,422 Speaker 2: her wanting to be with Eli. But at the end 186 00:11:48,462 --> 00:11:51,862 Speaker 2: of the day, Eli came back into the fold and 187 00:11:52,582 --> 00:11:57,142 Speaker 2: they gave them their blessing for them to be married. 188 00:11:58,462 --> 00:12:00,462 Speaker 1: Let's talk about that time that he left the Amish, 189 00:12:00,462 --> 00:12:04,062 Speaker 1: because it was nineteen seventy two and he went into 190 00:12:04,062 --> 00:12:06,502 Speaker 1: the modern world. I guess what did he do in 191 00:12:06,502 --> 00:12:07,342 Speaker 1: that time period. 192 00:12:08,102 --> 00:12:10,782 Speaker 2: He did a lot of different things. He did seeing 193 00:12:11,022 --> 00:12:15,902 Speaker 2: dated other people, He got a driver's license, started going 194 00:12:15,942 --> 00:12:19,622 Speaker 2: out to bars and gambling. Things of that nature where 195 00:12:19,742 --> 00:12:22,582 Speaker 2: you wouldn't think that he would have done it because 196 00:12:22,622 --> 00:12:26,102 Speaker 2: of the strict faction that he was in. But he did, 197 00:12:27,062 --> 00:12:30,942 Speaker 2: and I'd sat back waiting for him. And in the 198 00:12:30,942 --> 00:12:35,302 Speaker 2: book Abandoned Prayers, it touches more on what Eli did 199 00:12:35,582 --> 00:12:38,542 Speaker 2: during those times, and there's several different accounts of what 200 00:12:38,582 --> 00:12:42,622 Speaker 2: he did or may not have done, but the general 201 00:12:42,662 --> 00:12:46,102 Speaker 2: consensus was he pretty much partied. 202 00:12:46,742 --> 00:12:48,502 Speaker 1: And I think this is an important pot to bring 203 00:12:48,502 --> 00:12:51,342 Speaker 1: in now, because he wasn't just having relationships with women, 204 00:12:51,542 --> 00:12:51,742 Speaker 1: was he. 205 00:12:52,302 --> 00:12:55,102 Speaker 2: No, he wasn't. And you know, it doesn't matter whether 206 00:12:55,142 --> 00:13:01,142 Speaker 2: you're gay, straight, bisexual, trans anything of that nature. However, 207 00:13:01,302 --> 00:13:04,902 Speaker 2: with Eli, he was gay, and I can't speak for 208 00:13:04,942 --> 00:13:09,302 Speaker 2: anyone else, but I can understand how it possibly would 209 00:13:09,302 --> 00:13:13,382 Speaker 2: have been hard for him to be himself and not Era, 210 00:13:14,142 --> 00:13:18,542 Speaker 2: let alone, in that religious faction. That's the thing. It 211 00:13:18,702 --> 00:13:22,862 Speaker 2: was not accepted, it was not tolerated, and even back 212 00:13:22,902 --> 00:13:25,582 Speaker 2: then in the seventies, the thing was it still wasn't 213 00:13:25,622 --> 00:13:27,822 Speaker 2: tolerated in the United States. 214 00:13:28,222 --> 00:13:31,782 Speaker 1: So Noah, was his sexuality accepted in the Amish community 215 00:13:31,862 --> 00:13:33,222 Speaker 1: or outside of the Amish community. 216 00:13:33,782 --> 00:13:37,142 Speaker 2: No, it wasn't. And it's a conundrum when you look 217 00:13:37,182 --> 00:13:39,942 Speaker 2: at it because you're upset with this man through the 218 00:13:39,982 --> 00:13:43,342 Speaker 2: crimes that he committed, and yet there's a bit of 219 00:13:43,422 --> 00:13:47,702 Speaker 2: humanity and compassion for maybe the life he lived. You're 220 00:13:47,782 --> 00:13:51,982 Speaker 2: not saying that you're giving an excuse for the crimes. 221 00:13:52,622 --> 00:13:54,942 Speaker 2: But in that day and age, I think it was 222 00:13:54,982 --> 00:14:00,262 Speaker 2: hard for anyone in America to be openly gay, let 223 00:14:00,302 --> 00:14:03,662 Speaker 2: alone in a strict faction of the Amish community, which 224 00:14:03,702 --> 00:14:06,342 Speaker 2: is the lowest order of it that is not even 225 00:14:06,382 --> 00:14:10,222 Speaker 2: accepting of using batteries, let alone of same sex relations. 226 00:14:10,782 --> 00:14:13,702 Speaker 1: But in the end, he had his fun, I guess 227 00:14:13,782 --> 00:14:16,742 Speaker 1: in the modern world, and decided to go back to 228 00:14:16,822 --> 00:14:19,742 Speaker 1: the Amish community and get married to Ida. 229 00:14:19,862 --> 00:14:22,942 Speaker 2: He did. He came back and got married to Ida, 230 00:14:23,302 --> 00:14:26,262 Speaker 2: and prior to getting married Ida, he had to get 231 00:14:26,262 --> 00:14:30,302 Speaker 2: their family's blessing, like we talked about, and they weren't 232 00:14:30,462 --> 00:14:33,942 Speaker 2: for it, but that's what Ida wanted, and so they 233 00:14:33,942 --> 00:14:37,142 Speaker 2: did the normal thing that was allowed back then, which 234 00:14:37,422 --> 00:14:42,182 Speaker 2: was both parties that were getting married had to take tests, 235 00:14:42,302 --> 00:14:44,982 Speaker 2: medical tests to make sure that they didn't have any 236 00:14:45,542 --> 00:14:50,342 Speaker 2: diseases so to speak. Nowadays, that's not required that back 237 00:14:50,342 --> 00:14:54,862 Speaker 2: then they did actually require that, and so we don't 238 00:14:54,942 --> 00:14:59,062 Speaker 2: know what Eli had However, when he came back to 239 00:14:59,142 --> 00:15:02,702 Speaker 2: announce whether his test came back clean or not clean, 240 00:15:03,142 --> 00:15:05,902 Speaker 2: he said that he had bad blood, but he was 241 00:15:05,942 --> 00:15:08,982 Speaker 2: going to go to someone that would fix it, and 242 00:15:09,302 --> 00:15:11,262 Speaker 2: in the end that's what he did. I just came 243 00:15:11,302 --> 00:15:15,062 Speaker 2: back completely fine, but Eli's test did not, and so 244 00:15:15,142 --> 00:15:18,662 Speaker 2: he went back to someone and he was given a 245 00:15:18,782 --> 00:15:23,182 Speaker 2: tea that then changed his blood and made it pure again. 246 00:15:23,542 --> 00:15:25,702 Speaker 1: Reading between the lines, what are we talking about sexually 247 00:15:25,702 --> 00:15:27,742 Speaker 1: transmitted diseases? What was in his blood? 248 00:15:28,022 --> 00:15:33,022 Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, okay, some states years ago. I don't think 249 00:15:33,022 --> 00:15:36,022 Speaker 2: there are many now that require this. But when a 250 00:15:36,062 --> 00:15:38,222 Speaker 2: man and a woman wanted to get married, they had 251 00:15:38,262 --> 00:15:41,702 Speaker 2: to go and take a test or venereal diseases so 252 00:15:41,742 --> 00:15:46,142 Speaker 2: that way they did not spread anymore. And that was 253 00:15:46,222 --> 00:15:49,022 Speaker 2: required back in Ohio, in the county that they lived 254 00:15:49,062 --> 00:15:52,502 Speaker 2: in at the time, and they did that, and Eli's 255 00:15:52,582 --> 00:15:57,302 Speaker 2: came back tainted or with some type of infection. 256 00:15:57,542 --> 00:16:00,262 Speaker 1: And he managed to get the test overlooked. 257 00:16:00,742 --> 00:16:03,862 Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't just overlooked. What happened was what he 258 00:16:04,062 --> 00:16:07,822 Speaker 2: said and what we have received in interviews, and a 259 00:16:07,822 --> 00:16:10,782 Speaker 2: lot of this stems back to Greg's original race that 260 00:16:10,822 --> 00:16:13,062 Speaker 2: he did in his first book. That he ever did 261 00:16:13,102 --> 00:16:16,902 Speaker 2: abandon prayers. What he said he did was he went 262 00:16:17,102 --> 00:16:20,942 Speaker 2: to a natural path that gave him a tea that 263 00:16:21,142 --> 00:16:24,582 Speaker 2: cured him right, and then he retook the test and 264 00:16:24,782 --> 00:16:25,822 Speaker 2: everything was fine. 265 00:16:26,622 --> 00:16:30,262 Speaker 1: It feels like that story is giving me a taste 266 00:16:30,342 --> 00:16:35,702 Speaker 1: of the lies that Eli liked to spin exactly. So, 267 00:16:35,902 --> 00:16:39,982 Speaker 1: they get married, they get pregnant pretty quickly. Was that 268 00:16:40,022 --> 00:16:42,622 Speaker 1: a happy time for them as a couple? Was married 269 00:16:42,662 --> 00:16:44,422 Speaker 1: life everything I'd hoped it would be. 270 00:16:45,182 --> 00:16:49,582 Speaker 2: Unfortunately No. On the outside looking in, everyone thought it 271 00:16:49,622 --> 00:16:53,062 Speaker 2: was perfect. She had this perfect husband, she was pregnant, 272 00:16:53,102 --> 00:16:56,782 Speaker 2: she was getting a house, and she was starting a family. 273 00:16:57,262 --> 00:17:00,222 Speaker 2: But when you look beyond the confides of just what's 274 00:17:00,222 --> 00:17:02,662 Speaker 2: on the outside, there was a lot more going on, 275 00:17:02,862 --> 00:17:04,982 Speaker 2: just like what we see on Instagram to date. And 276 00:17:05,462 --> 00:17:07,942 Speaker 2: I think she still put up a front of that 277 00:17:08,142 --> 00:17:12,262 Speaker 2: in the beginning with her relationship with Eli, because I 278 00:17:12,262 --> 00:17:15,502 Speaker 2: think it stems back to also, you know, girls, we 279 00:17:15,742 --> 00:17:17,942 Speaker 2: fight with our parents, we want to be with them, 280 00:17:18,422 --> 00:17:20,982 Speaker 2: but once we find out that our parents what they said, 281 00:17:21,102 --> 00:17:23,622 Speaker 2: I told you so, you don't want to admit it. 282 00:17:23,702 --> 00:17:25,622 Speaker 2: You want to believe that that person you fell in 283 00:17:25,662 --> 00:17:29,462 Speaker 2: love with is still there, and you weren't wrong and 284 00:17:29,822 --> 00:17:35,062 Speaker 2: Ida behind closed doors. The thing was Eli was very absent. 285 00:17:35,222 --> 00:17:39,982 Speaker 2: He wasn't there for her. He wasn't a partner in 286 00:17:40,022 --> 00:17:44,022 Speaker 2: her day to day life. And it's very evident through 287 00:17:44,142 --> 00:17:48,662 Speaker 2: interviews as you see the progression of Ida's life with 288 00:17:48,822 --> 00:17:53,542 Speaker 2: Eli first getting married to him, being excited to the 289 00:17:53,582 --> 00:17:57,262 Speaker 2: tragedy that fell upon her. Later on, you could see 290 00:17:57,262 --> 00:18:01,462 Speaker 2: the progression of it where she started to become unhappy 291 00:18:02,182 --> 00:18:05,742 Speaker 2: and saw Eli for who he was versus what she 292 00:18:06,022 --> 00:18:07,902 Speaker 2: hoped he would have been for her. 293 00:18:08,302 --> 00:18:11,822 Speaker 1: So she was raising this some Daniel or Denny as 294 00:18:11,822 --> 00:18:13,742 Speaker 1: he was known, basically by herself. 295 00:18:14,102 --> 00:18:18,862 Speaker 2: Basically by herself, she was and I'm a mother. Your 296 00:18:18,942 --> 00:18:23,702 Speaker 2: kids are your life, so you'll do anything for them. However, 297 00:18:23,942 --> 00:18:28,582 Speaker 2: when your partner is absent, I think that adds a 298 00:18:28,582 --> 00:18:32,542 Speaker 2: different element to it, where you want them to be present, 299 00:18:32,742 --> 00:18:36,382 Speaker 2: not just for your own peace of mind, but also 300 00:18:36,622 --> 00:18:39,622 Speaker 2: as that parent. Their belief is a child should have 301 00:18:39,702 --> 00:18:43,462 Speaker 2: two parents, They should be there, they should be teaching them, 302 00:18:43,942 --> 00:18:46,982 Speaker 2: And she was teaching him, but she also wanted him 303 00:18:47,022 --> 00:18:51,222 Speaker 2: to teach him the things that maybe she couldn't that 304 00:18:51,342 --> 00:18:54,622 Speaker 2: Eli could, whether it was building a milk cow or 305 00:18:55,302 --> 00:18:58,302 Speaker 2: he was so little, but still just being around a father. 306 00:18:58,822 --> 00:19:01,622 Speaker 2: She wanted that for her son, and she didn't get it. 307 00:19:02,502 --> 00:19:05,702 Speaker 1: And divorce was that something that was allowed in her 308 00:19:06,182 --> 00:19:07,462 Speaker 1: fection of Amish. 309 00:19:07,742 --> 00:19:12,062 Speaker 2: Divorce was never an option in that community, unfortunately. 310 00:19:13,022 --> 00:19:16,142 Speaker 1: So in nineteen seventy seven she was pregnant again with 311 00:19:16,222 --> 00:19:19,862 Speaker 1: her second child. She was twenty six, so still quite young. 312 00:19:20,582 --> 00:19:23,142 Speaker 1: But she died in the July of that year. I 313 00:19:23,182 --> 00:19:25,902 Speaker 1: want you to take us to the day, the day 314 00:19:25,942 --> 00:19:29,382 Speaker 1: before the night. What happened during that day in the 315 00:19:29,462 --> 00:19:30,342 Speaker 1: laid up to her death. 316 00:19:31,662 --> 00:19:35,982 Speaker 2: So that day Eli had to go into town and 317 00:19:36,102 --> 00:19:39,662 Speaker 2: he went in his horse and buggy. He had left 318 00:19:40,222 --> 00:19:44,662 Speaker 2: Ida and Danny at home alone, along with their farm hand, 319 00:19:45,342 --> 00:19:50,462 Speaker 2: which was another farm hand boy named Eli, but he 320 00:19:50,622 --> 00:19:54,902 Speaker 2: was there with Ida and the baby. And Eli was 321 00:19:54,942 --> 00:19:59,222 Speaker 2: coming home late that afternoon. According to police reports, it 322 00:19:59,302 --> 00:20:01,822 Speaker 2: was around supper time, so this would have been around 323 00:20:01,902 --> 00:20:05,902 Speaker 2: four or five in the afternoon, and as he's coming 324 00:20:05,942 --> 00:20:11,342 Speaker 2: down the road to his home, he sees lightning strike 325 00:20:11,582 --> 00:20:16,022 Speaker 2: his barn on his property. He hurries back home as 326 00:20:16,062 --> 00:20:20,142 Speaker 2: fast as he can, and all the while Ida and 327 00:20:20,182 --> 00:20:24,302 Speaker 2: the other farmhand, Junior, are on the property. And Ida 328 00:20:24,422 --> 00:20:27,422 Speaker 2: had seen that there was lightning and whatnot, but nothing 329 00:20:27,502 --> 00:20:30,062 Speaker 2: on the property. But she did ask the farman to 330 00:20:30,102 --> 00:20:33,102 Speaker 2: come inside because he had been on the ladder and working, 331 00:20:33,742 --> 00:20:36,342 Speaker 2: and this was a young boy that she didn't want injured, 332 00:20:36,422 --> 00:20:40,262 Speaker 2: so she had him come inside. Shortly after, Eli comes 333 00:20:40,262 --> 00:20:43,862 Speaker 2: home and says there was lightning that struck the barn. 334 00:20:44,502 --> 00:20:48,462 Speaker 2: He tells everyone this, and you know, it's this big, 335 00:20:48,542 --> 00:20:53,782 Speaker 2: elaborate story, and Junior goes into the barn with him 336 00:20:53,862 --> 00:20:58,062 Speaker 2: as well, and it's almost as if Eli is trying 337 00:20:58,062 --> 00:21:02,142 Speaker 2: to get Junior to believe his lies. See look here, 338 00:21:02,302 --> 00:21:05,902 Speaker 2: the glass is broken. See the smoldering of the hay. 339 00:21:06,462 --> 00:21:10,182 Speaker 2: There was a fire here, that's where lightning struck. Things 340 00:21:10,262 --> 00:21:13,742 Speaker 2: like that, And even the farmhand at the time didn't 341 00:21:13,782 --> 00:21:15,902 Speaker 2: believe it, even though he was a young boy. He 342 00:21:15,982 --> 00:21:19,782 Speaker 2: thought it was so strange. And through this time Eli 343 00:21:19,862 --> 00:21:24,142 Speaker 2: had claimed that he was going back every thirty minutes 344 00:21:24,342 --> 00:21:27,542 Speaker 2: to check on the barn to see if the fire 345 00:21:27,622 --> 00:21:30,182 Speaker 2: had smoldered, or just to check on the fire of 346 00:21:30,222 --> 00:21:34,022 Speaker 2: the embers, even though there wasn't any. He told that 347 00:21:34,142 --> 00:21:38,302 Speaker 2: to the police later on, and that evening, Tim Blausser, 348 00:21:38,422 --> 00:21:41,902 Speaker 2: an attorney that he had met through a family friend, 349 00:21:42,662 --> 00:21:45,782 Speaker 2: came over to the house to draft their will. 350 00:21:46,182 --> 00:21:46,942 Speaker 1: Strange timing. 351 00:21:47,702 --> 00:21:54,462 Speaker 2: Yes, that's the thing. It's so coincidental that an attorney 352 00:21:54,502 --> 00:21:56,942 Speaker 2: that he meets through a friend of a friend through 353 00:21:57,342 --> 00:21:59,942 Speaker 2: a place that he's working comes over to the house 354 00:21:59,982 --> 00:22:03,582 Speaker 2: that evening and is like, Hey, let's go out and 355 00:22:03,622 --> 00:22:05,662 Speaker 2: do your will while your wife is sitting here. 356 00:22:06,542 --> 00:22:10,022 Speaker 1: Okay, So they have this weed story about Latining hitting 357 00:22:10,022 --> 00:22:14,102 Speaker 1: a bomb, They ride up their wills, and then seemingly 358 00:22:14,942 --> 00:22:18,542 Speaker 1: they go to bed. What happens next after midnight? Let's 359 00:22:18,662 --> 00:22:22,382 Speaker 1: talk about it through Ali's eyes? What does he say 360 00:22:22,542 --> 00:22:23,422 Speaker 1: happened next? 361 00:22:24,222 --> 00:22:27,942 Speaker 2: So Eli claims that he woke up, and I would 362 00:22:27,982 --> 00:22:31,982 Speaker 2: like to say Eli has multiple different stories of what 363 00:22:32,142 --> 00:22:36,062 Speaker 2: happened that night, but the one that stayed consistent was 364 00:22:36,382 --> 00:22:40,502 Speaker 2: he woke up around midnight to Ida waking him up 365 00:22:40,662 --> 00:22:43,462 Speaker 2: saying there's an explosion at the barn. There's a fire, 366 00:22:44,062 --> 00:22:48,582 Speaker 2: and he wakes up, goes downstairs, and they both go 367 00:22:48,662 --> 00:22:53,142 Speaker 2: to the barn and they attempt to put out the fire. However, 368 00:22:53,822 --> 00:22:58,822 Speaker 2: Ida does not survive that. And then the farm hand Junior, 369 00:22:58,902 --> 00:23:03,342 Speaker 2: comes down and sees Ida on the ground and sees 370 00:23:03,422 --> 00:23:06,462 Speaker 2: Eli running, and Eli tells him, you need to go 371 00:23:06,542 --> 00:23:09,782 Speaker 2: get help, go to the neighbor's house and do this, 372 00:23:10,102 --> 00:23:13,782 Speaker 2: call the fire department, all of these different places. However, 373 00:23:13,902 --> 00:23:18,462 Speaker 2: never mentions once that his wife is dead on the ground. 374 00:23:19,222 --> 00:23:24,742 Speaker 2: And the boy finally asks and says, Eli, what about Ida. 375 00:23:24,942 --> 00:23:29,542 Speaker 2: She's not moving. I think she's hurt, and he says, okay, fine, 376 00:23:29,742 --> 00:23:32,622 Speaker 2: go at it and call the paramedics. It was almost 377 00:23:32,662 --> 00:23:37,182 Speaker 2: an irritation the way the farmhand described it. He was 378 00:23:37,262 --> 00:23:40,422 Speaker 2: irritated that he even asked about his wife. And so 379 00:23:40,582 --> 00:23:45,102 Speaker 2: that is the event of what Eli said happened. However, 380 00:23:45,982 --> 00:23:51,662 Speaker 2: after Greg's investigation through his book, that's not what took place. 381 00:23:56,582 --> 00:24:00,342 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jimma Boss. 382 00:24:00,662 --> 00:24:03,622 Speaker 1: Up next, we discover how more deaths are linked to 383 00:24:03,702 --> 00:24:13,622 Speaker 1: Eli Stutsman, including that of his own son. Let's talk 384 00:24:13,662 --> 00:24:16,542 Speaker 1: about some of the holes in a life story. 385 00:24:16,702 --> 00:24:17,942 Speaker 2: First of all, there's a. 386 00:24:17,862 --> 00:24:21,302 Speaker 1: Lot of conversation about what Ida was actually wearing when 387 00:24:21,302 --> 00:24:24,502 Speaker 1: she was found dead on the floor. Why was that significant? 388 00:24:24,942 --> 00:24:28,902 Speaker 2: That was significant because after the paramedics had found her dead, 389 00:24:29,142 --> 00:24:32,302 Speaker 2: the thing was she was dressed in her day uniform, 390 00:24:32,942 --> 00:24:36,622 Speaker 2: which can take anywhere from six to ten minutes, depending 391 00:24:36,622 --> 00:24:40,022 Speaker 2: out how good you are on penny and they don't 392 00:24:40,102 --> 00:24:44,222 Speaker 2: wear that to bed. They have nightwhere that they wear, 393 00:24:44,382 --> 00:24:46,382 Speaker 2: just like us, we have nightgowns. We don't sleep in 394 00:24:46,382 --> 00:24:50,022 Speaker 2: our normal clothes. So for Ida to wake up from 395 00:24:50,062 --> 00:24:54,622 Speaker 2: a dead sleep at midnight, get dressed in her day 396 00:24:54,662 --> 00:24:58,902 Speaker 2: clothes and go down and fight a fire doesn't make 397 00:24:58,942 --> 00:25:01,902 Speaker 2: any sense. And every Amish woman that we spoke to 398 00:25:02,182 --> 00:25:06,742 Speaker 2: about that had said no Amish woman would get dressed 399 00:25:06,862 --> 00:25:10,462 Speaker 2: for that. They would run down in their NightWare to 400 00:25:11,182 --> 00:25:12,982 Speaker 2: help mitigate the fire. 401 00:25:13,222 --> 00:25:16,222 Speaker 1: Because assuming the nightwear would still be modest, so it's 402 00:25:16,222 --> 00:25:18,062 Speaker 1: not like they would be worried about that. 403 00:25:18,582 --> 00:25:22,902 Speaker 2: Yes, it's not a tank top and like what we wear, 404 00:25:23,822 --> 00:25:26,222 Speaker 2: you know, things of that nature, especially in the middle 405 00:25:26,222 --> 00:25:31,662 Speaker 2: of July when it's hot here. But that's saying if 406 00:25:31,702 --> 00:25:37,142 Speaker 2: your house was on fire, you stripped all your pajamas off, 407 00:25:37,702 --> 00:25:39,862 Speaker 2: got on all your day clothes, that you would wear 408 00:25:39,982 --> 00:25:42,702 Speaker 2: your pair of jeans, your T shirt, your sweatshirt along 409 00:25:42,702 --> 00:25:44,782 Speaker 2: with your shoes and socks, and put your hair up 410 00:25:44,822 --> 00:25:47,422 Speaker 2: in a bot. Yeah, that's what they're saying she did 411 00:25:47,502 --> 00:25:48,982 Speaker 2: in an emergency, and she didn't. 412 00:25:50,662 --> 00:25:53,582 Speaker 1: What about the lamps or the lights on in the house. 413 00:25:54,262 --> 00:25:57,302 Speaker 2: That was another part that was very interesting, which is 414 00:25:57,342 --> 00:26:02,182 Speaker 2: what led Greg to get further into this investigation. Because 415 00:26:02,942 --> 00:26:05,742 Speaker 2: they have the lamps in the house kerosene and oil 416 00:26:05,822 --> 00:26:09,902 Speaker 2: and whatnot that are only lit until they go to bed. 417 00:26:10,542 --> 00:26:13,222 Speaker 2: Everyone had gone to bed at nine, but when the 418 00:26:13,302 --> 00:26:17,582 Speaker 2: farm hand woke up, it's approximately twelve to twelve thirty. 419 00:26:17,942 --> 00:26:21,342 Speaker 2: So pretty soon after Eli's story of when he says 420 00:26:21,382 --> 00:26:24,542 Speaker 2: this started taking place, all the lamps in the house 421 00:26:24,582 --> 00:26:27,862 Speaker 2: were lit. And that was a big thing because everyone 422 00:26:27,902 --> 00:26:30,542 Speaker 2: turned their lamps off, especially when they're going to bed. 423 00:26:30,822 --> 00:26:35,302 Speaker 2: When sunset is around nine nine thirty, the lamps are off, 424 00:26:35,382 --> 00:26:38,222 Speaker 2: they're going to sleep, the children are asleep, there's nothing 425 00:26:38,302 --> 00:26:42,622 Speaker 2: to do. So around twelve to one am, why are 426 00:26:42,862 --> 00:26:46,102 Speaker 2: all the lamps in the house on. Now? The farm 427 00:26:46,142 --> 00:26:49,782 Speaker 2: boy went to bed earlier that evening, the same time 428 00:26:49,862 --> 00:26:53,342 Speaker 2: that Ida and Eli should have went to bed. His 429 00:26:53,462 --> 00:26:56,022 Speaker 2: door was closed upstairs. There's no way he would have 430 00:26:56,182 --> 00:27:00,582 Speaker 2: known what was or what was not going on. However, 431 00:27:01,022 --> 00:27:04,782 Speaker 2: when he woke up, every lamp in that house was lit. 432 00:27:05,262 --> 00:27:06,422 Speaker 2: And why so? 433 00:27:06,502 --> 00:27:09,502 Speaker 1: I feel like even just these few clues that we've 434 00:27:09,582 --> 00:27:14,182 Speaker 1: spoken about, surely they would have sparked the interest of 435 00:27:14,782 --> 00:27:19,062 Speaker 1: police or any investigators. Did they come to the scene. 436 00:27:19,302 --> 00:27:25,422 Speaker 2: That not they did, and unfortunately none of these parts 437 00:27:25,462 --> 00:27:29,982 Speaker 2: were ever really investigated. There were multiple witnesses. Ida's body 438 00:27:30,022 --> 00:27:34,422 Speaker 2: had been moved several different times. When the farm hand left, 439 00:27:35,222 --> 00:27:37,462 Speaker 2: Ida was right in front of the milkhouse, but when 440 00:27:37,462 --> 00:27:41,142 Speaker 2: the neighbor showed up from across the street, Ida was 441 00:27:41,182 --> 00:27:46,542 Speaker 2: now inside the milkhouse and Eli and that neighbor had 442 00:27:46,582 --> 00:27:50,902 Speaker 2: to actually get her out and carry her. So there 443 00:27:50,902 --> 00:27:54,142 Speaker 2: were so many different stories, and yes police did show up, 444 00:27:54,142 --> 00:27:59,142 Speaker 2: but unfortunately we don't know why they didn't further the investigation. 445 00:27:59,302 --> 00:28:02,422 Speaker 2: And I think that is one reason why Greg wanted 446 00:28:02,462 --> 00:28:06,622 Speaker 2: to look into this further. Why wasn't it investigated, Because 447 00:28:07,182 --> 00:28:10,542 Speaker 2: even now, when you say it out loud, it sounds 448 00:28:10,542 --> 00:28:13,142 Speaker 2: like a common sense thing to ask, why is this 449 00:28:13,222 --> 00:28:16,462 Speaker 2: person's story different than your story? No one asked that. 450 00:28:17,422 --> 00:28:21,742 Speaker 1: So was her death put down as just accidental file 451 00:28:22,342 --> 00:28:23,342 Speaker 1: took her life. 452 00:28:23,582 --> 00:28:27,422 Speaker 2: It wasn't even fire. It was undetermined or accidental, and 453 00:28:27,582 --> 00:28:30,222 Speaker 2: not even fire, but it was the stress of the fire. 454 00:28:30,702 --> 00:28:35,262 Speaker 2: They said that Ida had a bad heart, yet the doctor, 455 00:28:35,342 --> 00:28:39,862 Speaker 2: doctor Lehman, who was her doctor her entire life, had 456 00:28:40,022 --> 00:28:43,382 Speaker 2: said she had never had a bad heart. However, when 457 00:28:43,382 --> 00:28:46,182 Speaker 2: she died he was out of town, which also raises 458 00:28:46,262 --> 00:28:50,382 Speaker 2: questions did Eli know that that's the thing? We don't know. 459 00:28:51,062 --> 00:28:54,582 Speaker 2: We're trying to piece together a puzzle that unfortunately a 460 00:28:54,582 --> 00:28:58,062 Speaker 2: lot of people have passed away on and it's trd. 461 00:28:58,182 --> 00:29:00,342 Speaker 2: You kind of work your way from the outside of 462 00:29:00,382 --> 00:29:04,782 Speaker 2: a puzzle where you get the frame and you piece together. Okay, 463 00:29:04,782 --> 00:29:07,782 Speaker 2: this section's red, this session's pink, this one's white, this 464 00:29:07,902 --> 00:29:10,702 Speaker 2: is black, this one's got some spots, and you go 465 00:29:10,782 --> 00:29:12,702 Speaker 2: through and you try and pieces together the best you 466 00:29:12,742 --> 00:29:17,782 Speaker 2: can when you're researching it. Because the thing is doctor 467 00:29:17,902 --> 00:29:23,222 Speaker 2: Lehman knew Ida she did not have a bad heart. However, 468 00:29:23,502 --> 00:29:25,382 Speaker 2: Eli said she had a bad heart, and that was 469 00:29:25,422 --> 00:29:28,982 Speaker 2: taken at base value or for his word with the 470 00:29:29,022 --> 00:29:31,422 Speaker 2: detectives at the time in the sheriff's apartment. 471 00:29:31,742 --> 00:29:34,702 Speaker 1: So it wasn't an autopsy or a corona or anyone 472 00:29:34,782 --> 00:29:36,102 Speaker 1: that determined that it was. 473 00:29:36,062 --> 00:29:39,622 Speaker 2: Ali Eli was the one that said it. However, the 474 00:29:39,902 --> 00:29:42,862 Speaker 2: individual there was a sheriff. He was the head of 475 00:29:42,902 --> 00:29:47,262 Speaker 2: the entire shriff's department there. This was Sheriff James Frost, 476 00:29:47,542 --> 00:29:52,702 Speaker 2: and he ended up being the main investigator, lead investigator 477 00:29:52,742 --> 00:29:56,062 Speaker 2: for Ida's death and said it looks like this is 478 00:29:56,102 --> 00:30:01,902 Speaker 2: just natural causes. And there was the corner and when 479 00:30:01,982 --> 00:30:06,182 Speaker 2: Ida was brought in, there was never really an autopsy done. 480 00:30:06,262 --> 00:30:09,542 Speaker 2: They don't do that, but they were able to draw 481 00:30:09,662 --> 00:30:14,382 Speaker 2: blood and look at her and determined what was the 482 00:30:14,382 --> 00:30:18,782 Speaker 2: cause of her death. And according to Eli's statements, the 483 00:30:18,982 --> 00:30:24,782 Speaker 2: coroner at the time, JT. Questell, had surmised that Ida 484 00:30:24,862 --> 00:30:30,342 Speaker 2: had died of a bad heart due to the stress 485 00:30:30,462 --> 00:30:34,262 Speaker 2: of the fire and being pregnant. But that's what it 486 00:30:34,342 --> 00:30:38,022 Speaker 2: was left at. No one went further to investigate the 487 00:30:38,022 --> 00:30:42,182 Speaker 2: claims of Eli's statement of Ida having a bad heart 488 00:30:43,102 --> 00:30:44,022 Speaker 2: at all. 489 00:30:44,182 --> 00:30:49,902 Speaker 1: What did you discover about Eli's relationship with these authority figures. 490 00:30:50,302 --> 00:30:52,902 Speaker 2: What we found out was there was a source and 491 00:30:52,942 --> 00:30:56,182 Speaker 2: I won't name him, but it was stated that Sheriff 492 00:30:56,222 --> 00:31:00,742 Speaker 2: Frost was gay and used to go to Eli's house 493 00:31:01,422 --> 00:31:05,982 Speaker 2: and enjoy himself with other men and other individuals. 494 00:31:06,142 --> 00:31:08,142 Speaker 1: So he was in a relationship with Eli. 495 00:31:08,782 --> 00:31:11,742 Speaker 2: And that's the thing. We believe there was one or 496 00:31:12,182 --> 00:31:15,222 Speaker 2: at least there was something there. At least from what 497 00:31:15,342 --> 00:31:18,222 Speaker 2: we have research and what we have found out, there 498 00:31:18,302 --> 00:31:22,422 Speaker 2: was definitely some relationship going on. We don't know if 499 00:31:22,422 --> 00:31:26,622 Speaker 2: that did play a factor in Ida's death, one can assume. 500 00:31:27,262 --> 00:31:30,942 Speaker 2: But that's the thing. Greg He plays Devil's advocate for 501 00:31:31,222 --> 00:31:33,982 Speaker 2: all of his books, all of the crime zy researches, 502 00:31:34,102 --> 00:31:38,422 Speaker 2: because you have to be objective and so Yes, although 503 00:31:39,262 --> 00:31:43,142 Speaker 2: Sheriff Frost shows up at Eli's house, who was gay 504 00:31:43,382 --> 00:31:46,542 Speaker 2: and Sheriff Frost in the end turns out to be gay, 505 00:31:46,942 --> 00:31:49,742 Speaker 2: does not mean that there was a releaseship or that 506 00:31:49,822 --> 00:31:53,302 Speaker 2: there wasn't one. But according to sources that we have 507 00:31:53,542 --> 00:31:56,382 Speaker 2: and that we've interviewed, it seems that it was more 508 00:31:56,502 --> 00:31:59,142 Speaker 2: likely than not there was one between them. 509 00:31:59,542 --> 00:32:03,342 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what happened after the file, because Ali 510 00:32:03,382 --> 00:32:06,422 Speaker 1: and Dunny eventually ended up leaving the amage community, didn't 511 00:32:06,422 --> 00:32:08,062 Speaker 1: they Where did they go? What did they do with 512 00:32:08,102 --> 00:32:09,142 Speaker 1: the next few years? 513 00:32:09,382 --> 00:32:13,062 Speaker 2: They did? Eli for the next few years leaves. He 514 00:32:13,142 --> 00:32:17,502 Speaker 2: goes to Colorado and goes down to Florida and sees family, 515 00:32:17,582 --> 00:32:20,582 Speaker 2: and he did everything with his son and met people 516 00:32:20,662 --> 00:32:25,542 Speaker 2: and lived in multiple different places. But by the time 517 00:32:25,982 --> 00:32:28,702 Speaker 2: May nineteen eighty five came around, that's when the body 518 00:32:28,742 --> 00:32:31,382 Speaker 2: of Glenn Pritchett was found, and I think that's when 519 00:32:31,422 --> 00:32:34,582 Speaker 2: people started realizing that maybe there's a little more to 520 00:32:34,662 --> 00:32:37,262 Speaker 2: Eli's stuts than what we feel. 521 00:32:37,902 --> 00:32:40,142 Speaker 1: So who was Glenn and what happened to him and 522 00:32:40,222 --> 00:32:41,582 Speaker 1: how was he related to Ala. 523 00:32:42,422 --> 00:32:46,422 Speaker 2: So when Eli ended up going to Texas, he met 524 00:32:46,462 --> 00:32:50,902 Speaker 2: Glenn Pritchett who was his roommate. And Glenn was twenty 525 00:32:50,982 --> 00:32:55,062 Speaker 2: four years old, was a nice young man. He was 526 00:32:55,102 --> 00:32:59,262 Speaker 2: in the military, and around May twelfth, nineteen eighty five, 527 00:32:59,422 --> 00:33:02,102 Speaker 2: he was found on the side of the road shot 528 00:33:02,182 --> 00:33:04,982 Speaker 2: to death. No one knew why this would happen or 529 00:33:05,062 --> 00:33:09,022 Speaker 2: who would want to harm him, but as time went on, 530 00:33:09,702 --> 00:33:13,142 Speaker 2: it would be learned that that's who Eli was. He 531 00:33:13,342 --> 00:33:15,942 Speaker 2: was the type of person to hurt individuals. 532 00:33:16,422 --> 00:33:19,542 Speaker 1: Was he a suspect in that death when it happened. 533 00:33:19,742 --> 00:33:22,422 Speaker 2: At the time, he was, but they never knew if 534 00:33:22,422 --> 00:33:24,942 Speaker 2: it was him or not. They knew that it was 535 00:33:24,982 --> 00:33:27,862 Speaker 2: a roommate, but he just said, oh, he owed me money, 536 00:33:28,062 --> 00:33:31,422 Speaker 2: and so he ended up leaving and skipping town and 537 00:33:31,502 --> 00:33:33,982 Speaker 2: never paid the money back. So no one ever thought 538 00:33:34,022 --> 00:33:37,102 Speaker 2: to really look further into the investigation for it. 539 00:33:37,662 --> 00:33:40,742 Speaker 1: So Glenn was found dead in the May, and then 540 00:33:40,822 --> 00:33:44,062 Speaker 1: in the December of that same year, another body was found. 541 00:33:44,862 --> 00:33:46,742 Speaker 1: Tell me about little Boy Blue. 542 00:33:47,022 --> 00:33:50,422 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a sad one and a tough one. I 543 00:33:50,582 --> 00:33:53,822 Speaker 2: know for Greg that was tough, because that's one thing 544 00:33:53,902 --> 00:33:57,422 Speaker 2: that really drew him into his first book at Brandon 545 00:33:57,502 --> 00:34:01,022 Speaker 2: Prayers finding a little boy in a blue sleeper. And 546 00:34:01,062 --> 00:34:03,022 Speaker 2: I think any of us as parents, we know what 547 00:34:03,062 --> 00:34:06,342 Speaker 2: those little sleepers look like with the footies at them, 548 00:34:06,382 --> 00:34:08,742 Speaker 2: and they zipped all the way up from the ankle 549 00:34:08,742 --> 00:34:10,822 Speaker 2: all the way up top to the neck. He was 550 00:34:10,862 --> 00:34:15,862 Speaker 2: found in a ditch in Nebraska by a hunter, and unfortunately, 551 00:34:15,982 --> 00:34:18,622 Speaker 2: he ended up being dubbed a little Boy Blue, and 552 00:34:18,662 --> 00:34:21,222 Speaker 2: he wasn't identified until two years later, and he was 553 00:34:21,262 --> 00:34:24,622 Speaker 2: identified as Eli Stutsman's little boy. 554 00:34:24,902 --> 00:34:28,462 Speaker 1: In Amongst all of this, before little Boy Blue was 555 00:34:28,542 --> 00:34:34,422 Speaker 1: identified as being Donny, wasn't Eli sending letters back home 556 00:34:34,862 --> 00:34:38,862 Speaker 1: pretending that Danny was alive when obviously he wasn't, but 557 00:34:38,902 --> 00:34:40,302 Speaker 1: we didn't know that yet. 558 00:34:40,582 --> 00:34:44,622 Speaker 2: Yes he was. He had sent letters written as if 559 00:34:44,702 --> 00:34:50,342 Speaker 2: he was Danny himself. It's pretty sick to think about 560 00:34:50,342 --> 00:34:54,102 Speaker 2: it that a father would pretend to be their child 561 00:34:54,742 --> 00:34:57,862 Speaker 2: and pretend that they were alive. But he did. He 562 00:34:57,982 --> 00:35:00,502 Speaker 2: pretended Danny was live. He sent letters back to his 563 00:35:00,542 --> 00:35:04,662 Speaker 2: family members and loved ones saying Danny was well or 564 00:35:04,822 --> 00:35:09,662 Speaker 2: speaking as Danny writing as Danny saying that I'm alive, 565 00:35:09,742 --> 00:35:12,622 Speaker 2: I'm well, I'm playing soccer and going on a ski trip. 566 00:35:12,702 --> 00:35:15,942 Speaker 2: And yeah, Eli did that, and no one at the 567 00:35:15,982 --> 00:35:18,542 Speaker 2: time had any idea that Danny was even dead. 568 00:35:19,422 --> 00:35:23,022 Speaker 1: So when little Boy Blue was identified as being Donny, 569 00:35:23,822 --> 00:35:26,742 Speaker 1: what was Eli's excuse? How did he explain what he'd 570 00:35:26,782 --> 00:35:28,622 Speaker 1: been doing for the last year. 571 00:35:29,462 --> 00:35:33,782 Speaker 2: It wasn't until the Reader's Digest came out and a 572 00:35:33,822 --> 00:35:37,942 Speaker 2: member of the Amish community, which was part of the 573 00:35:38,022 --> 00:35:42,062 Speaker 2: community that was a little more lenient, they had a television, 574 00:35:42,102 --> 00:35:45,262 Speaker 2: they had the Readers Digest, and they knew who Eli was, 575 00:35:45,862 --> 00:35:48,022 Speaker 2: and there was a story about the little boy found 576 00:35:48,022 --> 00:35:51,862 Speaker 2: in Chester, Nebraska, a little boy Blue, and they had 577 00:35:51,982 --> 00:35:56,342 Speaker 2: put the picture up of the little boy that was 578 00:35:56,662 --> 00:36:00,782 Speaker 2: a drawing of him, and someone had said, oh my god, 579 00:36:00,862 --> 00:36:04,382 Speaker 2: I think that looks like Danny. That could be Danny. 580 00:36:05,102 --> 00:36:07,342 Speaker 2: And no one had heard from Eliay or Danny in 581 00:36:07,462 --> 00:36:10,782 Speaker 2: a long time, or at least seen him, And so 582 00:36:11,142 --> 00:36:15,062 Speaker 2: they called up the local Chaff's department and Chester, Nebraska 583 00:36:15,502 --> 00:36:19,582 Speaker 2: to report what they had seen in the Reader's Digest, 584 00:36:20,062 --> 00:36:23,182 Speaker 2: and they gave a picture of Danny that they had had, 585 00:36:24,062 --> 00:36:27,062 Speaker 2: and sure enough, the sheriff there was like, oh my god, 586 00:36:27,622 --> 00:36:31,022 Speaker 2: this looks just like the composite of a little boy 587 00:36:31,062 --> 00:36:35,142 Speaker 2: that we found, little Boy Blue. And so as time 588 00:36:35,222 --> 00:36:38,822 Speaker 2: goes on, they start to piece it together that Eli 589 00:36:38,942 --> 00:36:45,222 Speaker 2: Stutsman was a suspect in Glenn Pritchett's death, his roommate, 590 00:36:45,862 --> 00:36:49,662 Speaker 2: and at that point they realized that there's more deaths 591 00:36:49,822 --> 00:36:50,982 Speaker 2: that he's connected to. 592 00:36:52,142 --> 00:36:54,382 Speaker 1: Okay, so we've got quite a lot going on here, 593 00:36:54,942 --> 00:36:58,742 Speaker 1: But focusing on Danny for a second, is Eli arrested 594 00:36:58,742 --> 00:37:01,862 Speaker 1: for murder in that case? Because obviously it's looking very suspicious. 595 00:37:01,902 --> 00:37:04,702 Speaker 1: He's been lying about his son. This little boy's being found, 596 00:37:04,742 --> 00:37:08,182 Speaker 1: it's now being identified as being Danny. Surely he's arrested. 597 00:37:08,782 --> 00:37:11,702 Speaker 2: Yes, he's a resident as a Texas and charged with 598 00:37:11,862 --> 00:37:15,862 Speaker 2: concealing a death and abandonment of a body and connection 599 00:37:16,022 --> 00:37:20,382 Speaker 2: with his son's death, Danny. And he ends up receiving 600 00:37:20,422 --> 00:37:25,102 Speaker 2: an eighteen month prison sentence, and he's also convicted of 601 00:37:25,142 --> 00:37:28,302 Speaker 2: Glenn Pridget's murder and is sentenced to forty years in 602 00:37:28,422 --> 00:37:30,822 Speaker 2: prison for that death of Glenn Pridgett. 603 00:37:31,662 --> 00:37:34,262 Speaker 1: So why wasn't he convicted of murder for Danny? 604 00:37:34,862 --> 00:37:38,462 Speaker 2: Because they couldn't confirm when they found the body. Unfortunately, 605 00:37:39,342 --> 00:37:45,862 Speaker 2: as decomposition goes and nature and animals and rodents, there 606 00:37:45,942 --> 00:37:51,182 Speaker 2: was no way for them to confirm what caused the 607 00:37:51,222 --> 00:37:55,462 Speaker 2: death of Danny. Eli has different stories that he was sick, 608 00:37:55,542 --> 00:37:58,102 Speaker 2: he was on medication, he was in the back and 609 00:37:58,102 --> 00:38:00,782 Speaker 2: then fell asleep and just didn't wake up. There's another 610 00:38:00,862 --> 00:38:04,422 Speaker 2: story where the exhaust was broken on the back of 611 00:38:04,502 --> 00:38:07,422 Speaker 2: the car he was driving at the time and so 612 00:38:07,502 --> 00:38:10,902 Speaker 2: it leaked into the back seat. There's multiple different stories, 613 00:38:10,942 --> 00:38:14,742 Speaker 2: but that's Eli's m O. Every time someone dies, he 614 00:38:14,902 --> 00:38:17,982 Speaker 2: has five or six different stories of what happened. I 615 00:38:18,022 --> 00:38:21,662 Speaker 2: mean when his wife died, Ida was saving puppies, she 616 00:38:21,862 --> 00:38:24,622 Speaker 2: was taking the milk bats out, she was saving kittens, 617 00:38:24,862 --> 00:38:27,502 Speaker 2: and none of that was true. So who's to say 618 00:38:27,542 --> 00:38:30,982 Speaker 2: what the real story is Except for just Danny and Eli, 619 00:38:31,382 --> 00:38:32,982 Speaker 2: they're the only ones that we'll ever know. 620 00:38:45,982 --> 00:38:50,142 Speaker 1: So there's convictions in place for Denny and for Glynn. 621 00:38:50,902 --> 00:38:53,302 Speaker 1: You mentioned other murders. Who are they. 622 00:38:54,022 --> 00:38:58,702 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's two other murders that he's suspected of. He's 623 00:38:58,742 --> 00:39:04,062 Speaker 2: never been charged unfortunately, but that's due to the lack 624 00:39:04,222 --> 00:39:09,302 Speaker 2: of evidence and it is circumstantial. It's Dennis Leader and 625 00:39:09,502 --> 00:39:15,062 Speaker 2: David Tyler both murdered and during Colorado, and their murders 626 00:39:15,062 --> 00:39:16,982 Speaker 2: are still unsolved till this day. 627 00:39:17,382 --> 00:39:20,142 Speaker 1: And what was his involvement with them? He knew both 628 00:39:20,142 --> 00:39:22,422 Speaker 1: of them as lovers, as friends. 629 00:39:23,022 --> 00:39:25,302 Speaker 2: That's one thing we don't know for sure. It is 630 00:39:25,342 --> 00:39:29,862 Speaker 2: suspected as lovers, it's suspected as friends. But that's the 631 00:39:29,902 --> 00:39:34,542 Speaker 2: one thing. It seems wherever Eli goes, there's murder that follows. 632 00:39:34,622 --> 00:39:35,502 Speaker 1: We have his. 633 00:39:35,942 --> 00:39:39,782 Speaker 2: Roommate, Glenn, We've got his son, we have his wife. 634 00:39:40,302 --> 00:39:43,382 Speaker 2: Now we have Dennis Leader as well as David Tyler. 635 00:39:43,702 --> 00:39:46,982 Speaker 2: It doesn't take it rocket scientists to understand that there's 636 00:39:47,022 --> 00:39:50,422 Speaker 2: a pattern of behavior here. But in the way the 637 00:39:50,502 --> 00:39:53,302 Speaker 2: criminal justice system works, you have to have evidence. It's 638 00:39:53,342 --> 00:39:55,982 Speaker 2: not just the story you can tell. 639 00:39:56,102 --> 00:39:59,542 Speaker 1: So when these convictions came through for Dunny and Glenn, 640 00:40:00,062 --> 00:40:03,902 Speaker 1: was Ida's case ever reopened or ever suggested to be reopened? 641 00:40:04,382 --> 00:40:07,702 Speaker 2: Unfortunately? No, That is what Greg is trying to do 642 00:40:07,822 --> 00:40:12,262 Speaker 2: with this story. Greg wants Ida's case reopened and her 643 00:40:12,382 --> 00:40:16,902 Speaker 2: death reclassified as homicide or unnatural causes. 644 00:40:17,302 --> 00:40:19,942 Speaker 1: I mean, with so many decades later now, so it 645 00:40:19,982 --> 00:40:21,702 Speaker 1: didn't happen at the time. 646 00:40:21,742 --> 00:40:24,462 Speaker 2: Yes, And that's the thing, it did not happen back then, 647 00:40:25,142 --> 00:40:28,822 Speaker 2: but that is what caused this entire book to be written. 648 00:40:29,462 --> 00:40:34,662 Speaker 2: Ia Gingrich's brother, Dan Gingrich came forward to Greg and said, 649 00:40:34,702 --> 00:40:38,982 Speaker 2: I found some letters that you should read that Eli 650 00:40:39,022 --> 00:40:42,422 Speaker 2: had wrote to his family or to multiple different people 651 00:40:42,422 --> 00:40:45,582 Speaker 2: that he had kept over the years, and Greg said, 652 00:40:45,622 --> 00:40:50,382 Speaker 2: okay e. Whenever he met him, and Daniel Gingrich wanted 653 00:40:50,542 --> 00:40:53,502 Speaker 2: justice for his sister, which is something very uncommon that 654 00:40:53,582 --> 00:40:58,102 Speaker 2: the Amish do. They don't reach out to law officials 655 00:40:58,222 --> 00:41:02,462 Speaker 2: or authority figures like that to get justice. They do 656 00:41:02,622 --> 00:41:05,502 Speaker 2: that within their own faction, their own sect, their own 657 00:41:05,542 --> 00:41:08,862 Speaker 2: religious way. But because Greg was so close with him 658 00:41:08,942 --> 00:41:12,462 Speaker 2: from the first book that he had wrote about Eli 659 00:41:12,622 --> 00:41:16,742 Speaker 2: and Ida and all the other murders and just Eli's line, 660 00:41:16,902 --> 00:41:18,702 Speaker 2: he felt he could reach out to Greg and so 661 00:41:18,782 --> 00:41:21,902 Speaker 2: he did. And that's why Greg wanted to write this 662 00:41:21,982 --> 00:41:25,982 Speaker 2: book about Ida as well as Danny, to show the 663 00:41:26,102 --> 00:41:31,822 Speaker 2: inconsistencies in Eli's story with everything he's ever said, and 664 00:41:32,062 --> 00:41:38,142 Speaker 2: to have the Sheriff's department finally reopened that investigation and 665 00:41:38,542 --> 00:41:43,942 Speaker 2: label her death as undetermined or unnatural, whichever one that 666 00:41:43,982 --> 00:41:44,542 Speaker 2: they can do. 667 00:41:45,862 --> 00:41:48,542 Speaker 1: The elephant in the room for me is do we 668 00:41:48,662 --> 00:41:52,462 Speaker 1: need to be looking at the Amish community and seeing 669 00:41:52,462 --> 00:41:56,782 Speaker 1: them as being potentially complicit in this crime in terms 670 00:41:56,782 --> 00:42:00,422 Speaker 1: of the alleged murder of Ida, because if more people 671 00:42:00,462 --> 00:42:04,182 Speaker 1: had spoken out, potentially Dunny might not have died or 672 00:42:04,222 --> 00:42:06,022 Speaker 1: Glenn might not have died well. 673 00:42:06,062 --> 00:42:08,462 Speaker 2: And a lot of people asked that question, and the 674 00:42:08,502 --> 00:42:12,662 Speaker 2: same thing that happens with our communities that we live in. 675 00:42:12,902 --> 00:42:15,502 Speaker 2: No one's going to think their husband or their brother 676 00:42:15,702 --> 00:42:19,142 Speaker 2: or their uncle is capable of things like that, and 677 00:42:19,342 --> 00:42:23,422 Speaker 2: so you don't jump to that conclusion. I believe it 678 00:42:23,462 --> 00:42:27,142 Speaker 2: comes back to not just loyalty, but the same way 679 00:42:27,862 --> 00:42:30,182 Speaker 2: we would never think that someone we love could be 680 00:42:30,342 --> 00:42:33,022 Speaker 2: capable of that. I don't think Eli's parents thought that 681 00:42:33,102 --> 00:42:35,142 Speaker 2: he was capable of it. I don't think his friends 682 00:42:35,502 --> 00:42:37,862 Speaker 2: thought that he was capable of killing someone, because at 683 00:42:37,902 --> 00:42:40,902 Speaker 2: the time of Ada's death, yes, he had lied about things, 684 00:42:40,902 --> 00:42:44,502 Speaker 2: but he had never murdered someone. So I don't think 685 00:42:44,542 --> 00:42:49,982 Speaker 2: there was consensus among them that he initially murdered Ada. 686 00:42:50,222 --> 00:42:54,102 Speaker 2: I think it was afterwards when people start talking and 687 00:42:54,782 --> 00:42:58,742 Speaker 2: looking at the bigger picture, then maybe there could have 688 00:42:58,822 --> 00:43:03,822 Speaker 2: been some inclination of suspicion. But I don't think anyone 689 00:43:03,902 --> 00:43:08,422 Speaker 2: ever really knew wholeheartedly that he was capable of it 690 00:43:08,782 --> 00:43:11,702 Speaker 2: until after the story about Little Boy Blue came out 691 00:43:11,822 --> 00:43:14,582 Speaker 2: and they found out that Eli was capable of it 692 00:43:14,622 --> 00:43:18,142 Speaker 2: because the murder of his son, that the Amish community 693 00:43:18,222 --> 00:43:23,982 Speaker 2: was able to piece together what Eli had done and realize, oh, 694 00:43:24,022 --> 00:43:28,302 Speaker 2: my god, maybe he is responsible for Ida's death. And 695 00:43:28,342 --> 00:43:31,382 Speaker 2: I think that's when people started coming forward from the 696 00:43:31,422 --> 00:43:34,262 Speaker 2: Amish community. So I don't think that they were trying 697 00:43:34,262 --> 00:43:37,582 Speaker 2: to protect him more or less. They just didn't know. 698 00:43:38,462 --> 00:43:41,542 Speaker 2: They didn't understand that someone was responsible for that in 699 00:43:41,582 --> 00:43:42,542 Speaker 2: their own community. 700 00:43:43,142 --> 00:43:46,302 Speaker 1: But then coming forward once they had the paces of 701 00:43:46,342 --> 00:43:48,142 Speaker 1: the puzzle, it didn't do anything. 702 00:43:48,182 --> 00:43:51,582 Speaker 2: It didn't help, No, it didn't. That's the thing. Many 703 00:43:51,622 --> 00:43:55,022 Speaker 2: people back then in the late eighties had talked about 704 00:43:55,382 --> 00:43:57,942 Speaker 2: what they knew about Eli and the Knight of the 705 00:43:57,982 --> 00:44:01,622 Speaker 2: Fire and what he was capable of and even in 706 00:44:01,622 --> 00:44:06,622 Speaker 2: his history, and whether it was they felt they weren't 707 00:44:06,702 --> 00:44:10,902 Speaker 2: listened to, or whether it was law enforcement enough to 708 00:44:10,982 --> 00:44:14,462 Speaker 2: convict him. Right now, I can't speak for all of them. 709 00:44:14,542 --> 00:44:17,382 Speaker 2: Neither can Great, but it's one of those things where 710 00:44:18,062 --> 00:44:21,582 Speaker 2: it does call into question why wasn't it looked into further? 711 00:44:22,622 --> 00:44:26,302 Speaker 2: Why wasn't it looked into at that time when he 712 00:44:26,422 --> 00:44:30,022 Speaker 2: was convicted of concealing the body and abandoning a body. 713 00:44:30,782 --> 00:44:36,622 Speaker 2: Why wasn't Ida's death reopened, especially with all these Amish 714 00:44:37,062 --> 00:44:40,702 Speaker 2: individuals coming forward, which is something that isn't done in 715 00:44:40,742 --> 00:44:46,222 Speaker 2: that community. But they did. They came forward, but maybe 716 00:44:46,222 --> 00:44:48,542 Speaker 2: they weren't taken seriously. I don't know, because a lot 717 00:44:48,542 --> 00:44:51,942 Speaker 2: of those individuals a part of the original investigation, unfortunately, 718 00:44:51,982 --> 00:44:55,502 Speaker 2: have passed away and so we'll never know. And all 719 00:44:55,542 --> 00:44:58,662 Speaker 2: we have now are a lot of police reports as 720 00:44:58,702 --> 00:45:01,982 Speaker 2: well as a lot of interviews from individuals from that time. 721 00:45:02,182 --> 00:45:05,822 Speaker 2: But then again, over time, you know, people's accounts of 722 00:45:05,862 --> 00:45:10,822 Speaker 2: things can change, which is unfortunate, and a lot of 723 00:45:10,822 --> 00:45:12,822 Speaker 2: them have passed away as well. 724 00:45:13,022 --> 00:45:15,502 Speaker 1: What ended up happening to Eli? You said he got 725 00:45:15,542 --> 00:45:19,702 Speaker 1: forty years, He served thirteen and then he got out. 726 00:45:19,742 --> 00:45:20,582 Speaker 1: What happened to him? 727 00:45:21,102 --> 00:45:25,022 Speaker 2: He served thirteen years, and when he got out, he 728 00:45:25,102 --> 00:45:29,622 Speaker 2: ended up moving to Fort Worth, Texas And January thirty first, 729 00:45:29,622 --> 00:45:32,942 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, was when he was found dad 730 00:45:32,982 --> 00:45:36,102 Speaker 2: in his apartment and he had committed suicide. 731 00:45:36,662 --> 00:45:39,542 Speaker 1: So we're obviously not going to see Eli put behind 732 00:45:39,662 --> 00:45:43,942 Speaker 1: buzz by reinvestigating Ida's case. What is your hope, What 733 00:45:44,062 --> 00:45:47,742 Speaker 1: is the hope of justice for her? In looking at 734 00:45:47,742 --> 00:45:48,902 Speaker 1: this case again. 735 00:45:49,262 --> 00:45:51,982 Speaker 2: When I first got hired with Greg, this was just 736 00:45:52,022 --> 00:45:54,262 Speaker 2: supposed to be short. It wasn't supposed to be something 737 00:45:54,342 --> 00:45:58,902 Speaker 2: big or a huge book. However, with the call from 738 00:45:59,022 --> 00:46:04,142 Speaker 2: AIDA's brother wanting the help in helping to solve his 739 00:46:04,262 --> 00:46:07,782 Speaker 2: sister's murder, with the new information that was brought forth, 740 00:46:08,182 --> 00:46:12,902 Speaker 2: it inspired Greg to move. This was the first book 741 00:46:12,902 --> 00:46:17,182 Speaker 2: he had ever written, the first case he had ever investigated, 742 00:46:17,782 --> 00:46:21,982 Speaker 2: and it has a part of him that I don't 743 00:46:21,982 --> 00:46:25,222 Speaker 2: think anybody will ever be able to understand except for Break. 744 00:46:25,822 --> 00:46:29,622 Speaker 2: This is something that has consumed his life. Even when 745 00:46:29,622 --> 00:46:32,462 Speaker 2: he's in the middle of writing another book or a story, 746 00:46:32,982 --> 00:46:37,302 Speaker 2: he always comes back to this. And even though Eli 747 00:46:37,622 --> 00:46:40,422 Speaker 2: is dead, like you said, there's no justice we're going 748 00:46:40,462 --> 00:46:44,622 Speaker 2: to be able to see. However, I think what Greg, 749 00:46:44,782 --> 00:46:47,062 Speaker 2: as well as Dan Gingrich, what they want to see 750 00:46:47,262 --> 00:46:51,662 Speaker 2: is the Sheriff's department there take accountability for not opening 751 00:46:51,742 --> 00:46:59,662 Speaker 2: up that initial investigation and reclassifying Ada's death as undetermined 752 00:46:59,782 --> 00:47:05,422 Speaker 2: or unnatural, something to show she didn't die of natural causes. 753 00:47:06,142 --> 00:47:08,782 Speaker 2: And for us, we can all look on the outside 754 00:47:08,822 --> 00:47:10,702 Speaker 2: saying no It's just a piece of paper that's says 755 00:47:10,702 --> 00:47:13,702 Speaker 2: one thing, whether you know the truth or not. But 756 00:47:13,782 --> 00:47:17,022 Speaker 2: for some people that's the point of it. They want 757 00:47:17,062 --> 00:47:20,902 Speaker 2: it changed on paper, and who are we to judge 758 00:47:20,902 --> 00:47:23,902 Speaker 2: what they want for their own justice and closure? 759 00:47:24,382 --> 00:47:25,462 Speaker 1: Do you think it'll ever happen? 760 00:47:26,102 --> 00:47:29,222 Speaker 2: I hope it will. I know there is that part 761 00:47:29,262 --> 00:47:31,022 Speaker 2: of the book where Greg and I we go to 762 00:47:31,222 --> 00:47:36,302 Speaker 2: the Sheriff's department and I say a few choice words, 763 00:47:36,502 --> 00:47:39,342 Speaker 2: which I won't say right now, but I said a 764 00:47:39,342 --> 00:47:42,662 Speaker 2: few choice words. They refuse to talk with us, But 765 00:47:42,742 --> 00:47:46,302 Speaker 2: I know Greg is working really closely with the department 766 00:47:46,342 --> 00:47:50,382 Speaker 2: over there right now, and hopefully that happens. I wouldn't 767 00:47:50,382 --> 00:47:53,022 Speaker 2: hold my breath, but it doesn't mean I can't hope. 768 00:47:53,542 --> 00:47:55,902 Speaker 1: And lastly, I just wanted to ask what Ida's story 769 00:47:55,942 --> 00:47:58,782 Speaker 1: means to you. You're a mom yourself. You've mentioned that 770 00:47:58,862 --> 00:48:01,902 Speaker 1: a few times, and that seems to be a big 771 00:48:01,902 --> 00:48:03,982 Speaker 1: connector here we've got a mom of a young kid, 772 00:48:04,062 --> 00:48:06,302 Speaker 1: she was pregnant, she was twenty six, she had a 773 00:48:06,342 --> 00:48:09,342 Speaker 1: whole life ahead of her. Does her story stay with you? 774 00:48:10,182 --> 00:48:14,502 Speaker 2: It does. As moms we try and be as perfect 775 00:48:15,102 --> 00:48:19,822 Speaker 2: as we can or our children or not just her husbands, 776 00:48:19,822 --> 00:48:23,102 Speaker 2: but we just want to do good. And the thing 777 00:48:23,182 --> 00:48:26,062 Speaker 2: is Ida just wanted to do good. She wanted to 778 00:48:26,062 --> 00:48:28,382 Speaker 2: be a good mom, she wanted to be a good wife, 779 00:48:28,702 --> 00:48:31,502 Speaker 2: and she was murdered for it. And her story deserves 780 00:48:31,582 --> 00:48:33,542 Speaker 2: to be told. And that's why I do this, even 781 00:48:33,542 --> 00:48:36,342 Speaker 2: though they don't have a voice. As hard as it 782 00:48:36,382 --> 00:48:38,182 Speaker 2: is to hear it, it was harder for them to 783 00:48:38,262 --> 00:48:39,782 Speaker 2: live it. And that's my motto. 784 00:48:44,782 --> 00:48:47,222 Speaker 1: Thanks to Robin for assisting us to tell Ida and 785 00:48:47,262 --> 00:48:50,902 Speaker 1: her son Danny's story. True Crime Conversations is a mom 786 00:48:50,902 --> 00:48:54,262 Speaker 1: and mea podcast hosted and produced by me Jimma Bass, 787 00:48:54,342 --> 00:48:58,342 Speaker 1: with audio design by Scott Stronik. Our executive producer is 788 00:48:58,422 --> 00:49:01,462 Speaker 1: Lift Proud. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back 789 00:49:01,502 --> 00:49:11,582 Speaker 1: next week with another true Crime Conversation. E