1 00:00:11,149 --> 00:00:13,869 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,829 --> 00:00:17,869 Speaker 2: Mom and Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 3 00:00:17,949 --> 00:00:20,069 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,269 --> 00:00:23,109 Speaker 3: Hello. I'm Stacy Hicks. I'm the editor of Mamma Mia 5 00:00:23,189 --> 00:00:25,629 Speaker 3: and I'm also the host of our new parenting podcast, 6 00:00:25,749 --> 00:00:29,149 Speaker 3: Parenting out Loud. And this summer, we're curating your listening 7 00:00:29,149 --> 00:00:32,189 Speaker 3: with a healthy dose of culture savvy conversations that parents 8 00:00:32,309 --> 00:00:36,229 Speaker 3: actually want. This holiday season, we're bringing you unmissable episodes 9 00:00:36,349 --> 00:00:39,789 Speaker 3: right here into your podcast playlist. It's your summer listening sorted. 10 00:00:40,229 --> 00:00:42,109 Speaker 3: And if you're looking for more to listen to, every 11 00:00:42,189 --> 00:00:45,069 Speaker 3: Muma Mia podcast is curating some are listening right across 12 00:00:45,109 --> 00:00:48,909 Speaker 3: the network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews. 13 00:00:49,189 --> 00:00:51,629 Speaker 3: There's something for everyone. There's a link in the show notes. 14 00:00:58,229 --> 00:01:01,309 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Parenting out Loud. I am Jess 15 00:01:01,429 --> 00:01:04,989 Speaker 2: Stevens and I am joined by Amelia Lester, and we're 16 00:01:05,029 --> 00:01:07,669 Speaker 2: here to talk about some of the stories that dominated 17 00:01:07,709 --> 00:01:10,429 Speaker 2: the week, because if parents are thinking about that, we 18 00:01:10,629 --> 00:01:14,229 Speaker 2: are talking about it. Welcome Amelia. How was your week? 19 00:01:14,389 --> 00:01:17,909 Speaker 1: Look, it's been stressful. I'm tracking a parcel on the 20 00:01:17,909 --> 00:01:19,909 Speaker 1: Australia Post app. Have you been there? 21 00:01:20,269 --> 00:01:20,949 Speaker 2: Have I been there? 22 00:01:21,069 --> 00:01:24,189 Speaker 1: Yeah? I decided I needed to buy a dress for 23 00:01:24,229 --> 00:01:28,189 Speaker 1: a very important upcoming social event. And you know how 24 00:01:28,269 --> 00:01:31,029 Speaker 1: whenever you need a piece of clothing for something, you 25 00:01:31,069 --> 00:01:33,909 Speaker 1: can never find it. So I went online and I 26 00:01:33,909 --> 00:01:35,829 Speaker 1: bought a dress. I've never tried it on before, and 27 00:01:36,189 --> 00:01:38,349 Speaker 1: it may or may not work. It probably won't work, 28 00:01:38,389 --> 00:01:41,229 Speaker 1: given how online shopping turns out for me, And all 29 00:01:41,269 --> 00:01:43,269 Speaker 1: I can think of is when is this dress going 30 00:01:43,309 --> 00:01:45,789 Speaker 1: to get to me? I left the house this morning 31 00:01:45,949 --> 00:01:49,629 Speaker 1: for like half an hour. Guess what happened? It arrived, 32 00:01:49,949 --> 00:01:51,949 Speaker 1: So now I have to make the trip into the 33 00:01:51,949 --> 00:01:52,989 Speaker 1: post office for. 34 00:01:52,869 --> 00:01:55,949 Speaker 2: It, which is strictly only open when you are at work. 35 00:01:56,029 --> 00:02:00,349 Speaker 2: Or on today's show, should parents talk each other up? 36 00:02:00,389 --> 00:02:00,589 Speaker 4: More? 37 00:02:00,709 --> 00:02:03,269 Speaker 2: Co parenting and how you talk about your current or 38 00:02:03,309 --> 00:02:05,949 Speaker 2: ex partner is everywhere at the moment, and we want 39 00:02:05,989 --> 00:02:09,949 Speaker 2: to know what are the rules? Plus apparently it's so 40 00:02:10,229 --> 00:02:13,429 Speaker 2: kay to let your kids play with makeup. Amelia is 41 00:02:13,549 --> 00:02:16,469 Speaker 2: armed with a feminist defense and I am open minded 42 00:02:16,509 --> 00:02:19,749 Speaker 2: but skeptical. And Ellen Pompei's quote that had us asking 43 00:02:19,829 --> 00:02:23,149 Speaker 2: if mothers can ever really give one hundred percent at work? 44 00:02:23,429 --> 00:02:26,549 Speaker 2: But first, in case you missed it, there has been 45 00:02:26,629 --> 00:02:30,549 Speaker 2: a question dominating TikTok recently, which is how much do 46 00:02:30,589 --> 00:02:31,709 Speaker 2: you pay for kids haircut? 47 00:02:31,789 --> 00:02:33,309 Speaker 4: Amelia, what's your gut response? 48 00:02:33,709 --> 00:02:35,989 Speaker 1: This is a difficult one for me. I'm a curly 49 00:02:36,029 --> 00:02:39,589 Speaker 1: haired girl and I have curly haired children, and I 50 00:02:39,709 --> 00:02:43,149 Speaker 1: know that my curly head listeners will understand why we 51 00:02:43,229 --> 00:02:46,709 Speaker 1: can't give simple answers to questions about haircuts. I'm sorry, 52 00:02:46,789 --> 00:02:48,949 Speaker 1: I know you asked for a gut response. It's not 53 00:02:49,069 --> 00:02:51,189 Speaker 1: gonna happen. I need to tell you a story. Okay, 54 00:02:51,589 --> 00:02:54,229 Speaker 1: so I don't know where to get my kid's haircut. 55 00:02:54,309 --> 00:02:57,549 Speaker 1: I went to a fancy salon in my neighborhood that 56 00:02:57,709 --> 00:03:01,749 Speaker 1: was recommended on my class group chat. Okay, we go in. 57 00:03:02,069 --> 00:03:04,269 Speaker 1: The first sign that this is not the right place 58 00:03:04,309 --> 00:03:06,989 Speaker 1: for us to be is that the children are given 59 00:03:07,229 --> 00:03:10,509 Speaker 1: a biscotti, which I'm pretty sure was flavored with annas seed. 60 00:03:10,789 --> 00:03:11,829 Speaker 4: Oh wow. 61 00:03:11,909 --> 00:03:14,309 Speaker 2: Were they offered a latte? 62 00:03:15,629 --> 00:03:17,949 Speaker 1: They were probably offered a mimosa. I don't think an 63 00:03:17,989 --> 00:03:21,989 Speaker 1: aniseed biscotti is really the flavor profile of kids snacks. 64 00:03:22,629 --> 00:03:24,669 Speaker 1: But I was like, Okay, this is maybe not a 65 00:03:24,669 --> 00:03:26,789 Speaker 1: good decision. But anyway, they went off to get their 66 00:03:26,789 --> 00:03:29,149 Speaker 1: hair washed at the sink I have a question about that. 67 00:03:29,389 --> 00:03:31,669 Speaker 4: Is that worth it to get the hair washed? 68 00:03:31,789 --> 00:03:33,389 Speaker 1: You know what, I don't have an answer for you. 69 00:03:33,469 --> 00:03:37,469 Speaker 1: And here's why I'm sitting eating my aniseed biscotti, which 70 00:03:37,509 --> 00:03:40,589 Speaker 1: was oddly bitter, I have to say. And then the 71 00:03:40,709 --> 00:03:43,069 Speaker 1: very nice hairdresser comes back to me. She taps me 72 00:03:43,109 --> 00:03:45,589 Speaker 1: on the shoulder and she whispers in my ear, what 73 00:03:45,629 --> 00:03:47,309 Speaker 1: do you think it was? Was it a sweet? Nothing? 74 00:03:47,509 --> 00:03:49,469 Speaker 1: Was it? Would you like more aniseed biscotti? 75 00:03:49,709 --> 00:03:52,429 Speaker 4: I think that she's found she's found something late. 76 00:03:52,429 --> 00:03:55,789 Speaker 1: I found something living and it was life. So we 77 00:03:55,909 --> 00:03:57,949 Speaker 1: ran out, and now I have to cross the street 78 00:03:58,069 --> 00:04:00,269 Speaker 1: every time I walk past that salon. 79 00:04:00,669 --> 00:04:04,069 Speaker 2: Okay, what happened is that this woman named Millie was 80 00:04:04,109 --> 00:04:07,629 Speaker 2: on TikTok and she took her daughter to the hairdresser. 81 00:04:07,789 --> 00:04:08,669 Speaker 4: She didn't ask how much. 82 00:04:08,669 --> 00:04:11,669 Speaker 2: She was expecting thirty five bucks, right, and she was 83 00:04:11,789 --> 00:04:15,029 Speaker 2: charged one hundred and twenty, which is that's more than 84 00:04:15,029 --> 00:04:17,909 Speaker 2: I would expect my haircut to be. And so this 85 00:04:18,029 --> 00:04:20,749 Speaker 2: got everyone talking about how much it should be. You 86 00:04:20,829 --> 00:04:23,709 Speaker 2: raise a good point, which is the risk hairdressers are 87 00:04:23,749 --> 00:04:26,509 Speaker 2: taking when they touch children on the head is just 88 00:04:26,589 --> 00:04:30,829 Speaker 2: so so high, Like the chances that they have lies. 89 00:04:31,189 --> 00:04:33,869 Speaker 2: I remember distinctly as a kid going in. Things were 90 00:04:33,869 --> 00:04:37,629 Speaker 2: found not good. They always stop the haircut. It's very sad, 91 00:04:38,229 --> 00:04:38,909 Speaker 2: but we ask. 92 00:04:38,989 --> 00:04:41,549 Speaker 1: They probably put photos of us out the back, so 93 00:04:41,709 --> 00:04:43,669 Speaker 1: like warn them if we ever came back in. 94 00:04:43,589 --> 00:04:44,269 Speaker 4: They ever come in. 95 00:04:44,949 --> 00:04:46,309 Speaker 2: We went to out loud It's and we were like, 96 00:04:46,509 --> 00:04:48,869 Speaker 2: what is the cost of a haircut that you would 97 00:04:48,909 --> 00:04:53,629 Speaker 2: expect today? The average was about forty two dollars. But 98 00:04:53,669 --> 00:04:56,229 Speaker 2: there was this story from an out louder who moved 99 00:04:56,229 --> 00:04:59,629 Speaker 2: to Melbourne. She took her two children to a chain hairdresser, 100 00:04:59,709 --> 00:05:04,029 Speaker 2: budget hairdresser, not fancy Nobiscotti. They didn't ask the price before, 101 00:05:04,389 --> 00:05:06,909 Speaker 2: and as she left and went to pay for it, it 102 00:05:06,949 --> 00:05:09,469 Speaker 2: was one hundred and seventy dollars for both of them, 103 00:05:09,629 --> 00:05:13,149 Speaker 2: a trim and a wash, and she said, I nearly died. 104 00:05:13,549 --> 00:05:15,989 Speaker 2: Needless to say, my mother in law will be cutting 105 00:05:15,989 --> 00:05:19,629 Speaker 2: their hair from now on. My mom took my niece 106 00:05:20,189 --> 00:05:22,429 Speaker 2: to get her first haircut the other day. Yeah, and 107 00:05:22,509 --> 00:05:26,269 Speaker 2: did you know that just Cuts does under twelve months 108 00:05:26,269 --> 00:05:28,789 Speaker 2: free first haircut? I and they give it to you 109 00:05:28,829 --> 00:05:31,189 Speaker 2: in a little envelope. My uncle is the founder of 110 00:05:31,349 --> 00:05:31,669 Speaker 2: just Cut. 111 00:05:32,029 --> 00:05:34,869 Speaker 1: This is such a heartwarming story. We hear all these 112 00:05:34,909 --> 00:05:38,349 Speaker 1: things about companies squeezing profit margins. Just Cuts is out 113 00:05:38,349 --> 00:05:41,189 Speaker 1: there getting out little bits of hairing envelopes exactly. 114 00:05:41,229 --> 00:05:43,829 Speaker 2: I grew up with my uncle doing the like bold 115 00:05:43,909 --> 00:05:46,749 Speaker 2: cut or whatever, and now he started Just Cuts and 116 00:05:46,909 --> 00:05:48,509 Speaker 2: ended up being quite the success story. 117 00:05:48,589 --> 00:05:49,629 Speaker 4: But that is his rule. 118 00:05:49,749 --> 00:05:52,429 Speaker 2: So you go to just Cuts and you say, even 119 00:05:52,429 --> 00:05:54,749 Speaker 2: if they're five or I can just be like, yeah, twelve. 120 00:05:54,549 --> 00:05:56,549 Speaker 4: Months, they're just very highly developed. 121 00:05:56,589 --> 00:05:57,389 Speaker 1: Your kids could. 122 00:05:57,189 --> 00:05:59,109 Speaker 4: Passes eleven months old. 123 00:05:59,149 --> 00:06:04,149 Speaker 1: Surely I think that's a compliment. Is building up your 124 00:06:04,189 --> 00:06:06,709 Speaker 1: co parent in the eyes of your children part of 125 00:06:06,789 --> 00:06:09,429 Speaker 1: being a good parent. I have to admit I had 126 00:06:09,469 --> 00:06:12,829 Speaker 1: literally never thought about this before. I read a substack 127 00:06:12,869 --> 00:06:16,269 Speaker 1: about it recently, and now I cannot stop thinking about it. 128 00:06:16,749 --> 00:06:20,349 Speaker 1: This was in the Cuts Brooding newsletter by Catherine Geza Morton. 129 00:06:20,829 --> 00:06:23,149 Speaker 1: She asked this question, and I was reminded of it 130 00:06:23,229 --> 00:06:26,309 Speaker 1: because co parenting and how to talk about it has 131 00:06:26,349 --> 00:06:29,309 Speaker 1: been in the news first. I'm sure everyone saw that. 132 00:06:29,349 --> 00:06:32,189 Speaker 1: Deboraly Furnace released a statement to the media following her 133 00:06:32,189 --> 00:06:35,189 Speaker 1: divorce from Hugh Jackman. She said her heart went out 134 00:06:35,229 --> 00:06:39,349 Speaker 1: to everyone who has traversed the traumatic journey of betrayal. 135 00:06:40,589 --> 00:06:44,149 Speaker 1: They have two children together. The second was also recently. 136 00:06:44,229 --> 00:06:47,869 Speaker 1: Joe Jonas, who shares two daughters with Sophie Turner, talked 137 00:06:47,869 --> 00:06:51,509 Speaker 1: about their beautiful dynamic on Jay Shetty's podcast, which I 138 00:06:51,509 --> 00:06:53,109 Speaker 1: guess everyone listens to except me. 139 00:06:53,309 --> 00:06:53,989 Speaker 4: Yes correct. 140 00:06:54,149 --> 00:06:57,189 Speaker 1: He said, having an incredible mom Sophie for these girls 141 00:06:57,309 --> 00:07:00,829 Speaker 1: is like a dream come true. He said, whether you're 142 00:07:00,829 --> 00:07:03,109 Speaker 1: still legally attached to your co parent or not. I 143 00:07:03,149 --> 00:07:05,949 Speaker 1: think that this is a really interesting question to explore, 144 00:07:05,989 --> 00:07:09,109 Speaker 1: because every time I ask someone, it inevitably brings up 145 00:07:09,389 --> 00:07:13,029 Speaker 1: memories and thoughts about their childhoods and how they're bringing 146 00:07:13,069 --> 00:07:16,709 Speaker 1: their childhood experiences to parenting now, Jesse, Which is to say, 147 00:07:16,709 --> 00:07:19,149 Speaker 1: have you thought about this? Do you? Gas Lukerup? 148 00:07:19,749 --> 00:07:22,989 Speaker 2: I had not thought about it until you brought it up, 149 00:07:23,149 --> 00:07:26,029 Speaker 2: and it made me think about an experience I had 150 00:07:26,109 --> 00:07:29,709 Speaker 2: recently where I realized that we had stopped thanking each 151 00:07:29,749 --> 00:07:33,749 Speaker 2: other for seemingly tiny things like unstacking the dishwasher or 152 00:07:33,949 --> 00:07:36,749 Speaker 2: not all the time. But there are certain acts that 153 00:07:36,829 --> 00:07:38,509 Speaker 2: you do that I don't care if you've been together 154 00:07:38,549 --> 00:07:41,509 Speaker 2: for five minutes or fifty years, you should thank each other, 155 00:07:41,589 --> 00:07:43,109 Speaker 2: like when someone makes you a coffee in puts it 156 00:07:43,189 --> 00:07:46,349 Speaker 2: in front of you. It's like such a basic human act. 157 00:07:46,949 --> 00:07:50,309 Speaker 2: When you're raising a child or children, I think that 158 00:07:50,749 --> 00:07:53,349 Speaker 2: most of what they learn is through example and through modeling. 159 00:07:53,429 --> 00:07:56,269 Speaker 2: So you kind of go, oh, we're treating each other 160 00:07:56,829 --> 00:07:59,389 Speaker 2: not in an ideal way here, So I've kind of 161 00:07:59,429 --> 00:08:02,189 Speaker 2: reintroduced the idea of thank you. 162 00:08:02,309 --> 00:08:03,349 Speaker 1: How does it make you feel? 163 00:08:03,589 --> 00:08:06,469 Speaker 2: I found that when we didn't say thank you, it 164 00:08:06,509 --> 00:08:09,909 Speaker 2: was like it was just this expectation rather than we 165 00:08:10,149 --> 00:08:13,749 Speaker 2: but two adults helping each other out. There's a book 166 00:08:13,789 --> 00:08:15,829 Speaker 2: called How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids. Have 167 00:08:15,869 --> 00:08:16,749 Speaker 2: you heard about this book? 168 00:08:16,909 --> 00:08:18,069 Speaker 1: No? Tell me about it. 169 00:08:18,189 --> 00:08:22,669 Speaker 2: She as a journalist and she wrote this book after 170 00:08:22,789 --> 00:08:25,149 Speaker 2: she realized how much she hated us. 171 00:08:25,389 --> 00:08:27,469 Speaker 4: Great tital is such a good title. 172 00:08:28,149 --> 00:08:31,229 Speaker 2: And she found that ninety five percent of the couple 173 00:08:31,309 --> 00:08:34,709 Speaker 2: she spoke to said that they really struggled after having 174 00:08:34,709 --> 00:08:38,309 Speaker 2: a baby, and that in fact, your relationship satisfaction goes down. 175 00:08:38,589 --> 00:08:40,069 Speaker 4: So whether it's one. 176 00:08:39,869 --> 00:08:43,389 Speaker 2: Baby, apparently the more kids, the more the relationship satisfaction 177 00:08:43,949 --> 00:08:47,389 Speaker 2: goes down. And a lot of people will have memories 178 00:08:47,429 --> 00:08:53,589 Speaker 2: in their household of fighting, of put downs, of people 179 00:08:53,629 --> 00:08:57,229 Speaker 2: being passive aggressive towards each other and I think sometimes 180 00:08:57,229 --> 00:09:00,029 Speaker 2: it gives license to the children to either adopt that 181 00:09:00,509 --> 00:09:03,949 Speaker 2: or see a parent in a less respectful light. So 182 00:09:03,949 --> 00:09:06,589 Speaker 2: I thought this was such a pertinent point at a 183 00:09:06,629 --> 00:09:09,069 Speaker 2: time when we are talking more than ever about division 184 00:09:09,069 --> 00:09:11,549 Speaker 2: of the domestic load, which gives way to a lot 185 00:09:11,589 --> 00:09:15,669 Speaker 2: of conversations. Were constantly over communicating, sometimes being like I 186 00:09:15,749 --> 00:09:18,109 Speaker 2: did this your turn, blah blah blah, point scoring. 187 00:09:18,509 --> 00:09:19,949 Speaker 4: I'm very good at point scoring. 188 00:09:20,549 --> 00:09:23,109 Speaker 2: But yeah, I thought that's such a good point that 189 00:09:23,229 --> 00:09:25,189 Speaker 2: at a time when we're doing that, we've also got 190 00:09:25,189 --> 00:09:26,789 Speaker 2: a model good language. 191 00:09:26,989 --> 00:09:28,749 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great point. And in this 192 00:09:28,829 --> 00:09:32,949 Speaker 1: Brooding newsletter, she asks some people to explain why they 193 00:09:32,989 --> 00:09:34,909 Speaker 1: made a habit of praising their co parent, Because the 194 00:09:34,909 --> 00:09:37,109 Speaker 1: interesting thing is she did this quick survey and asked 195 00:09:37,109 --> 00:09:39,389 Speaker 1: people if they did it, and a lot of people 196 00:09:39,469 --> 00:09:41,469 Speaker 1: felt the same as us. They had never thought about 197 00:09:41,509 --> 00:09:45,069 Speaker 1: it before, but then given the proposition, well do you 198 00:09:45,149 --> 00:09:47,509 Speaker 1: praise your partner or your co parent, they started to 199 00:09:47,549 --> 00:09:49,869 Speaker 1: think that they probably should. So here are some themes 200 00:09:49,909 --> 00:09:52,789 Speaker 1: that emerged from people who were doing it. Many parents 201 00:09:52,829 --> 00:09:54,789 Speaker 1: were trying to lead by example. They wanted to teach 202 00:09:54,829 --> 00:09:57,669 Speaker 1: their kids the importance of giving and receiving love in 203 00:09:57,709 --> 00:09:59,509 Speaker 1: the form of praise, which I think is a really 204 00:09:59,589 --> 00:10:03,029 Speaker 1: nice idea. This was interesting. Some felt like they were 205 00:10:03,109 --> 00:10:06,269 Speaker 1: kind of building the scaffolding in case their relationship hit 206 00:10:06,309 --> 00:10:08,829 Speaker 1: a rough patch. So it's like, if we bank some 207 00:10:08,949 --> 00:10:12,229 Speaker 1: good will and grated to now and create that strong 208 00:10:12,309 --> 00:10:14,949 Speaker 1: bond through that, then when we hit rocky times, we 209 00:10:14,989 --> 00:10:17,149 Speaker 1: can kind of draw on the bank account of praise 210 00:10:17,269 --> 00:10:21,189 Speaker 1: and gratitude. And then another one was interesting, This is 211 00:10:21,189 --> 00:10:23,269 Speaker 1: a little bit like what you were saying, trying to 212 00:10:23,269 --> 00:10:25,789 Speaker 1: build a family culture that's different from the ones that 213 00:10:25,829 --> 00:10:26,589 Speaker 1: they grew up in. 214 00:10:26,789 --> 00:10:29,269 Speaker 2: The author I was talking about before, she said we 215 00:10:29,309 --> 00:10:31,869 Speaker 2: save our best selves for our children, and I don't 216 00:10:31,869 --> 00:10:34,869 Speaker 2: think that's always the best example for the children, right 217 00:10:35,069 --> 00:10:37,109 Speaker 2: to see that you speak to them in a certain way. 218 00:10:37,469 --> 00:10:41,069 Speaker 2: My patience for Luna is beyond anything I imagined I 219 00:10:41,069 --> 00:10:45,069 Speaker 2: could ever have. But my patience for Luca has severely reduced. 220 00:10:45,389 --> 00:10:48,429 Speaker 2: So while you've got a sick baby who's screaming, and 221 00:10:48,469 --> 00:10:51,149 Speaker 2: you go, I can't ever take my frustration out on her. 222 00:10:51,509 --> 00:10:54,269 Speaker 2: I've seen moments where we do it to each. 223 00:10:54,069 --> 00:10:55,949 Speaker 4: Other, like can I think further frustration? 224 00:10:56,189 --> 00:10:58,589 Speaker 2: And I think that that's inevitable to an extent, But 225 00:10:58,669 --> 00:11:03,109 Speaker 2: I really liked the idea that we've heard this reluctance, 226 00:11:03,109 --> 00:11:05,989 Speaker 2: and there's kind of this conservative criticism of divorce and 227 00:11:05,989 --> 00:11:08,629 Speaker 2: the impact that might have on kids, but the everyday 228 00:11:08,709 --> 00:11:11,429 Speaker 2: verbal jabs that you might have an even a loving 229 00:11:11,469 --> 00:11:15,309 Speaker 2: marriage can't be good either. It's an interesting new way 230 00:11:15,349 --> 00:11:15,869 Speaker 2: to look at it. 231 00:11:16,069 --> 00:11:20,069 Speaker 1: There's also some people who are reluctant to engage in 232 00:11:20,109 --> 00:11:23,149 Speaker 1: this habit because they feel like it's adopting a bit 233 00:11:23,149 --> 00:11:26,669 Speaker 1: of a kind of retro mother worship dynamic, you know, 234 00:11:26,869 --> 00:11:30,109 Speaker 1: like mother does everything for us, isn't she amazing? And 235 00:11:30,189 --> 00:11:33,709 Speaker 1: kind of emphasizing the idea of the all giving mother. 236 00:11:34,309 --> 00:11:36,749 Speaker 1: I think it's also hard to receive praise sometimes because 237 00:11:36,749 --> 00:11:40,389 Speaker 1: you get suspicious about maybe why someone's doing it. But 238 00:11:40,669 --> 00:11:43,829 Speaker 1: I feel like what a lot of people who were 239 00:11:43,869 --> 00:11:46,909 Speaker 1: surveyed here said was they started doing it and then 240 00:11:46,949 --> 00:11:49,629 Speaker 1: they noticed changes, which is why I asked you how 241 00:11:49,669 --> 00:11:52,469 Speaker 1: you were feeling about doing it. Once you've established a habit, 242 00:11:53,069 --> 00:11:56,149 Speaker 1: people say that it makes their children treat them better too, 243 00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:59,309 Speaker 1: because they're modeling how to be in a civil give 244 00:11:59,349 --> 00:12:02,549 Speaker 1: and take relationship. And the author of Brooding said that 245 00:12:02,589 --> 00:12:06,189 Speaker 1: once she started both accepting and giving out praise to 246 00:12:06,229 --> 00:12:09,029 Speaker 1: her co parent. Her children started asking her how her 247 00:12:09,109 --> 00:12:09,669 Speaker 1: day was. 248 00:12:09,669 --> 00:12:13,229 Speaker 2: More often, oh, my goodness, unheard of. It also gave 249 00:12:13,309 --> 00:12:19,189 Speaker 2: me a lot more compassionate understanding for the celebrity statements 250 00:12:19,229 --> 00:12:21,909 Speaker 2: that we often hear, so the conscious uncoupling of Gwyneth 251 00:12:21,949 --> 00:12:25,789 Speaker 2: and Chris, for example, or the mutual respect that we 252 00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:27,549 Speaker 2: often hear, and we roll our eyes because we think 253 00:12:27,589 --> 00:12:32,069 Speaker 2: it seems inauthentic. But I really respect parents who go 254 00:12:32,789 --> 00:12:35,429 Speaker 2: we're going to uncouple, but we are going to speak 255 00:12:35,469 --> 00:12:39,109 Speaker 2: about each other respectfully always, because when we don't, that 256 00:12:39,149 --> 00:12:39,829 Speaker 2: doesn't end well. 257 00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:42,149 Speaker 1: Yeah. Another good example of that is Bruce Willison de 258 00:12:42,229 --> 00:12:46,429 Speaker 1: me Moore. Demi Moore has spoken openly about how they'll 259 00:12:46,469 --> 00:12:49,469 Speaker 1: always be a family. They've been divorced for some time now, 260 00:12:49,509 --> 00:12:51,909 Speaker 1: just in a different form. I do want to, though, 261 00:12:51,989 --> 00:12:56,269 Speaker 1: leave a bit of space for Deborah le to express herself. 262 00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:59,149 Speaker 1: I think to me that's a slightly different point from 263 00:12:59,589 --> 00:13:02,989 Speaker 1: whether you're making a habit of praising your partner, because 264 00:13:03,029 --> 00:13:07,869 Speaker 1: I think there's something refreshing about Debora Le Furnace being 265 00:13:08,309 --> 00:13:10,829 Speaker 1: honest about what happened. 266 00:13:11,189 --> 00:13:13,469 Speaker 2: I think you can also praise someone as a parent 267 00:13:14,189 --> 00:13:15,749 Speaker 2: while also acknowledging that maybe. 268 00:13:15,549 --> 00:13:16,629 Speaker 4: They weren't the perfect husband. 269 00:13:16,829 --> 00:13:17,309 Speaker 1: Great point. 270 00:13:18,389 --> 00:13:21,709 Speaker 2: Just let your kids play with makeup. That's the title 271 00:13:21,869 --> 00:13:24,429 Speaker 2: of a column in The Atlantic I stumbled upon recently 272 00:13:24,909 --> 00:13:27,589 Speaker 2: which argues that your daughter or son playing with makeup 273 00:13:27,709 --> 00:13:32,349 Speaker 2: is not a red flag. Apparently, when kids imitate applying lipstick, 274 00:13:32,509 --> 00:13:36,509 Speaker 2: it's developmentally normal and a really healthy part of role playing. 275 00:13:36,829 --> 00:13:40,109 Speaker 2: In fact, our fear of it says something about how 276 00:13:40,189 --> 00:13:43,349 Speaker 2: we put down girly culture. We don't bristle in the 277 00:13:43,389 --> 00:13:47,189 Speaker 2: same way when boys play with cars, for example, Amelia, 278 00:13:47,309 --> 00:13:49,509 Speaker 2: I feel like the feminist books I've read told me 279 00:13:49,709 --> 00:13:52,029 Speaker 2: that this is very bad, and that I'm socializing my 280 00:13:52,149 --> 00:13:54,629 Speaker 2: daughter to think she needs to alter her appearance in 281 00:13:54,709 --> 00:13:57,349 Speaker 2: order to be considered beautiful, which is her currency as 282 00:13:57,389 --> 00:13:59,469 Speaker 2: a female in the world, and she doesn't see her 283 00:13:59,549 --> 00:14:02,549 Speaker 2: dad putting on makeup? Am I a cog in the 284 00:14:02,589 --> 00:14:03,669 Speaker 2: patriarchal machine? 285 00:14:03,749 --> 00:14:06,789 Speaker 1: I am so excited to talk about this because I 286 00:14:07,229 --> 00:14:09,589 Speaker 1: want to mount a feminist case for makeup. 287 00:14:09,589 --> 00:14:11,069 Speaker 4: Oh my God, ready to go. Yes. 288 00:14:11,909 --> 00:14:15,989 Speaker 1: The more you lean into makeup as a form of artifice, 289 00:14:16,029 --> 00:14:18,909 Speaker 1: as a toy, as a fun thing, the less it 290 00:14:18,949 --> 00:14:22,789 Speaker 1: becomes this mysterious necessity of adult womanhood. I think the 291 00:14:22,789 --> 00:14:25,029 Speaker 1: more mystique you build around it, and if you keep 292 00:14:25,069 --> 00:14:27,789 Speaker 1: your children away from the fun little gold tubes, and 293 00:14:27,869 --> 00:14:30,149 Speaker 1: I mean, why wouldn't children want to play with this stuff? 294 00:14:30,189 --> 00:14:32,629 Speaker 1: It is essentially like a box of crayons, accept more 295 00:14:32,669 --> 00:14:37,069 Speaker 1: fun and expensive. The more you're making it seem like 296 00:14:37,229 --> 00:14:41,469 Speaker 1: something that only adult women can indulge in or play with. 297 00:14:41,709 --> 00:14:43,949 Speaker 1: And I think it's really important that a we make 298 00:14:43,989 --> 00:14:46,389 Speaker 1: clear that makeup is fun. It is not a necessity. 299 00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:48,869 Speaker 1: It is not something that you need to hide yourself 300 00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:52,469 Speaker 1: or camouflage yourself. It's just a fun thing. And then two, 301 00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:54,989 Speaker 1: the more we decouple it from the idea of it's 302 00:14:55,149 --> 00:14:59,189 Speaker 1: just something used by women, so girls and boys are 303 00:14:59,229 --> 00:15:02,269 Speaker 1: attracted to the bright colors of makeup, let them play 304 00:15:02,269 --> 00:15:05,469 Speaker 1: with it. The more we demystify, I think, the less 305 00:15:05,909 --> 00:15:09,469 Speaker 1: power and importance is placed on it as a necessary 306 00:15:09,629 --> 00:15:11,069 Speaker 1: ritual of being a woman. 307 00:15:11,469 --> 00:15:14,349 Speaker 2: You make a really good point because playing with your 308 00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:18,549 Speaker 2: appearance is a developmental milestone, So there's a recognizing in 309 00:15:18,589 --> 00:15:21,429 Speaker 2: the mirror. Then having control over your appearance or knowing 310 00:15:21,429 --> 00:15:23,949 Speaker 2: that you can manipulate it or choose what you wear, 311 00:15:24,669 --> 00:15:28,149 Speaker 2: is something that every kid is going to go through, right, 312 00:15:28,269 --> 00:15:33,669 Speaker 2: So I understand embracing that. What I struggle with is 313 00:15:33,709 --> 00:15:38,309 Speaker 2: the way in which brands have got their claws into it. 314 00:15:38,909 --> 00:15:42,149 Speaker 2: There are some makeup companies. There's one in the US. 315 00:15:42,229 --> 00:15:45,109 Speaker 2: It is literally marketed to three year olds three plus, 316 00:15:45,309 --> 00:15:50,869 Speaker 2: and they have used images or like cartoons or beloved 317 00:15:51,309 --> 00:15:54,669 Speaker 2: toys that my daughter plays with to go this is 318 00:15:54,709 --> 00:15:57,189 Speaker 2: for you to make it look fun and exciting. And 319 00:15:57,269 --> 00:16:00,589 Speaker 2: as much as makeup is fun and I love makeup, 320 00:16:00,709 --> 00:16:03,469 Speaker 2: I would be lying if I said it didn't also 321 00:16:03,549 --> 00:16:06,829 Speaker 2: play a role in feeling as though I need to 322 00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:10,269 Speaker 2: present in a certain way to the world. Obviously, if 323 00:16:10,309 --> 00:16:12,549 Speaker 2: I do television, I sit in a chair for an hour, 324 00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:15,229 Speaker 2: whereas the male co host gets ten minutes. There are 325 00:16:15,269 --> 00:16:17,989 Speaker 2: things like that that we can't reconcile in a home necessarily. 326 00:16:18,549 --> 00:16:22,509 Speaker 2: But there is something deeply unequal and patriarchal about the 327 00:16:22,549 --> 00:16:23,429 Speaker 2: practice of makeup. 328 00:16:23,549 --> 00:16:26,069 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, damn it, you've just remembered the old case. 329 00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:28,749 Speaker 1: I think you raised some really good points. There's something 330 00:16:29,109 --> 00:16:33,309 Speaker 1: strangely circular about marketing makeup to three year olds, in 331 00:16:33,349 --> 00:16:37,149 Speaker 1: the sense that why a lot of women wear makeup 332 00:16:37,389 --> 00:16:41,309 Speaker 1: is because we are taught that it makes us look younger, 333 00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:43,989 Speaker 1: and so we put blush on our cheeks because as 334 00:16:44,029 --> 00:16:46,949 Speaker 1: you get older, you lose color in your cheeks. And 335 00:16:46,989 --> 00:16:49,829 Speaker 1: we put mascara on because as you get older, where 336 00:16:49,829 --> 00:16:54,029 Speaker 1: do your lashes go? Side note all pigment, And because 337 00:16:54,029 --> 00:16:56,509 Speaker 1: you're losing pigment, that's why you're applying more makeup as 338 00:16:56,509 --> 00:16:59,109 Speaker 1: you get older. So the thinking goes. So there's something 339 00:16:59,309 --> 00:17:05,269 Speaker 1: so odd about then teaching three year olds to look. 340 00:17:05,429 --> 00:17:09,949 Speaker 2: Young, Yeah, and to market to them. I have seen 341 00:17:10,149 --> 00:17:13,149 Speaker 2: videos come up of twelve year olds using anti aging 342 00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:16,989 Speaker 2: products like that's been absorbed. I mean, the whole skincare 343 00:17:17,029 --> 00:17:21,909 Speaker 2: trend is unbelievable and has literally put a rocket up 344 00:17:22,029 --> 00:17:25,389 Speaker 2: the markets of skincare and makeup. And there was this 345 00:17:25,589 --> 00:17:29,869 Speaker 2: example a few years ago of a makeup brand doing 346 00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:33,669 Speaker 2: a back to school event and it was like, come along, 347 00:17:34,149 --> 00:17:36,109 Speaker 2: will teach you to do your makeup for school and 348 00:17:36,149 --> 00:17:38,829 Speaker 2: you can get redeemable products from that. And they said 349 00:17:38,829 --> 00:17:40,949 Speaker 2: brows and skin like they weren't going, you're gonna wear 350 00:17:41,109 --> 00:17:44,509 Speaker 2: eyeeshadow to school. But I just went know something about 351 00:17:44,549 --> 00:17:47,509 Speaker 2: that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I think that that is 352 00:17:48,469 --> 00:17:50,669 Speaker 2: something I'd like to put off for as long as 353 00:17:50,669 --> 00:17:51,549 Speaker 2: I can well. 354 00:17:51,549 --> 00:17:54,709 Speaker 1: And there's also an interesting question here, do you feel 355 00:17:54,749 --> 00:18:00,629 Speaker 1: differently about kids using makeup versus kids using skincare, because 356 00:18:00,629 --> 00:18:04,989 Speaker 1: we've heard skincare companies tell us, oh, it's like brushing 357 00:18:04,989 --> 00:18:06,829 Speaker 1: your teeth. You've got to start early. We've got to 358 00:18:06,869 --> 00:18:09,669 Speaker 1: create the healthy habits. I always think, I don't know. 359 00:18:10,109 --> 00:18:12,469 Speaker 1: I din't know that I was meant to wash my 360 00:18:12,629 --> 00:18:16,149 Speaker 1: face until I was eighteen, pretty much. And no, I 361 00:18:16,189 --> 00:18:17,949 Speaker 1: think it's fine. It hasn't fallen off. 362 00:18:18,069 --> 00:18:19,989 Speaker 2: The idea that you need a routine. I mean that's 363 00:18:20,069 --> 00:18:22,509 Speaker 2: just like textbook capitalism. You get them younger and younger, 364 00:18:22,509 --> 00:18:24,189 Speaker 2: and then you get them into like the routine that 365 00:18:24,229 --> 00:18:28,349 Speaker 2: totally makes sense. But other than using a terrible exfoliant 366 00:18:28,669 --> 00:18:32,349 Speaker 2: that took off layers of my skirt one yeah, fourteen, 367 00:18:32,669 --> 00:18:37,069 Speaker 2: I loved that and it was three dollars great, it 368 00:18:37,189 --> 00:18:39,589 Speaker 2: smelled great, but we know it wasn't doing good things, 369 00:18:39,629 --> 00:18:41,789 Speaker 2: and in fact, it was probably very bad for the environment. 370 00:18:42,389 --> 00:18:45,389 Speaker 2: But the idea that you've got girls coming up and 371 00:18:45,429 --> 00:18:47,869 Speaker 2: asking their mum for these products and then you, as 372 00:18:47,869 --> 00:18:49,749 Speaker 2: a parent have to say no, even though I look 373 00:18:49,789 --> 00:18:53,749 Speaker 2: at my cupboard is like a really awkward hypocrisy because 374 00:18:53,749 --> 00:18:55,549 Speaker 2: the reality is as much as we might have our 375 00:18:55,829 --> 00:18:57,749 Speaker 2: makeup laying around and boys will play with it, and 376 00:18:57,789 --> 00:19:00,269 Speaker 2: girls are playing with it. It's not seven year old 377 00:19:00,349 --> 00:19:03,029 Speaker 2: boys that are saying, can I go and buy a 378 00:19:03,069 --> 00:19:04,309 Speaker 2: lick gloss from them? 379 00:19:04,509 --> 00:19:07,069 Speaker 1: No, it's not. There's a part of me that feels 380 00:19:07,109 --> 00:19:11,109 Speaker 1: like the makeup is more okay than the skincare. 381 00:19:11,389 --> 00:19:12,349 Speaker 4: It feels more playful. 382 00:19:12,429 --> 00:19:16,509 Speaker 1: It's more playful. It's because makeup it looks like toys. 383 00:19:16,989 --> 00:19:20,669 Speaker 2: That's so true, and there is something inherently, I believe, 384 00:19:21,309 --> 00:19:24,069 Speaker 2: artistic about it. It's playful because of the colors and 385 00:19:24,109 --> 00:19:26,949 Speaker 2: because you can experiment, and because you can make your 386 00:19:26,989 --> 00:19:29,749 Speaker 2: face look different, whether it's pretty or not. 387 00:19:29,789 --> 00:19:32,509 Speaker 4: But like you can just play with it, whereas. 388 00:19:32,149 --> 00:19:36,349 Speaker 2: The skincare thing is a whole of the ballgame. 389 00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:39,589 Speaker 1: I think so, And I think that another difference is 390 00:19:39,629 --> 00:19:45,709 Speaker 1: that makeup is something that only adult women really are 391 00:19:45,749 --> 00:19:49,869 Speaker 1: expected to wear. Right, if you don't wear makeup as 392 00:19:49,869 --> 00:19:53,549 Speaker 1: an adult woman, unfortunately, you are perceived as making a 393 00:19:53,709 --> 00:19:56,149 Speaker 1: choice not to wear makeup. It's not the default. The 394 00:19:56,229 --> 00:19:59,309 Speaker 1: default right now in twenty twenty five is that if 395 00:19:59,349 --> 00:20:02,749 Speaker 1: you leave the house not wearing makeup, that's a decision 396 00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:07,149 Speaker 1: you made to deviate from normal, and I just want 397 00:20:07,149 --> 00:20:10,549 Speaker 1: to break that down as much as possible and paradi sooxically. 398 00:20:10,589 --> 00:20:12,229 Speaker 1: I think the way to do that is just to 399 00:20:12,309 --> 00:20:16,749 Speaker 1: teach kids, boys, girls, that it's just a fun thing 400 00:20:16,869 --> 00:20:19,949 Speaker 1: to play with rather than a tool or a piece 401 00:20:19,949 --> 00:20:20,469 Speaker 1: of armor. 402 00:20:21,429 --> 00:20:24,589 Speaker 2: There is a quote by Gray's Anatomy star Ellen Pompeo 403 00:20:24,749 --> 00:20:27,989 Speaker 2: that I've been thinking about for months. Earlier this year, 404 00:20:28,029 --> 00:20:30,869 Speaker 2: she was a guest on Alex Cooper's Call Her Daddy podcast, 405 00:20:30,949 --> 00:20:33,309 Speaker 2: and she said, you cannot be a mother and have 406 00:20:33,429 --> 00:20:36,149 Speaker 2: children and give one hundred percent to your job. You 407 00:20:36,189 --> 00:20:38,589 Speaker 2: can't because there's a part of you that's somewhere else. 408 00:20:38,789 --> 00:20:42,189 Speaker 2: You split into different pieces. You're no longer just you. 409 00:20:42,189 --> 00:20:45,749 Speaker 2: You've been split into different pieces. Well, that might sound 410 00:20:45,829 --> 00:20:48,069 Speaker 2: like a negative thing. The other thing she went on 411 00:20:48,109 --> 00:20:50,669 Speaker 2: to say was you know what that does. It makes 412 00:20:50,709 --> 00:20:53,189 Speaker 2: you more soulful, It makes you richer, It makes you funnier, 413 00:20:53,269 --> 00:20:55,469 Speaker 2: it makes you feel more, makes you more empathetic, it 414 00:20:55,509 --> 00:20:57,869 Speaker 2: makes you angrier. She talks about the range of emotions 415 00:20:57,909 --> 00:21:03,069 Speaker 2: you have, and you will be yourself times one thousand, Amelia, 416 00:21:03,349 --> 00:21:05,429 Speaker 2: do you think it's true that you cannot give one 417 00:21:05,469 --> 00:21:07,429 Speaker 2: hundred percent to your job once you become a mother. 418 00:21:07,829 --> 00:21:12,309 Speaker 1: My popular opinion on this is that you can't. I 419 00:21:12,349 --> 00:21:14,629 Speaker 1: think Ellen's right. I think it is really hard to 420 00:21:14,669 --> 00:21:17,349 Speaker 1: give one hundred percent to anything once you've become a mother, 421 00:21:17,429 --> 00:21:19,909 Speaker 1: because you're always thinking about if you have fruit for 422 00:21:19,949 --> 00:21:22,389 Speaker 1: the lunchboxes tomorrow and do you need to wash this? 423 00:21:22,509 --> 00:21:23,909 Speaker 1: And what are they that's your definition. 424 00:21:25,549 --> 00:21:27,669 Speaker 2: I feel like this is a definitional thing of like, 425 00:21:28,469 --> 00:21:30,949 Speaker 2: you can still show up to work and do the 426 00:21:30,989 --> 00:21:33,149 Speaker 2: best work and the quality of work you did before 427 00:21:33,149 --> 00:21:36,509 Speaker 2: you had babies. But does one hundred percent mean give 428 00:21:36,669 --> 00:21:37,589 Speaker 2: my whole self? 429 00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:40,189 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to add a caveat, which is you're 430 00:21:40,229 --> 00:21:43,069 Speaker 1: not giving one hundred percent, but you're getting a whole 431 00:21:43,069 --> 00:21:46,469 Speaker 1: lot more done. It's a snake's and lightest situation. You're 432 00:21:46,509 --> 00:21:49,109 Speaker 1: never fully focused. But I do think you become more 433 00:21:49,189 --> 00:21:50,869 Speaker 1: efficient because you have to be. 434 00:21:51,269 --> 00:21:52,669 Speaker 2: So do you think you're worse at your job since 435 00:21:52,669 --> 00:21:53,269 Speaker 2: you had babies? 436 00:21:53,429 --> 00:21:55,469 Speaker 1: Oh that's such a good question, Jesse. Do you have 437 00:21:55,509 --> 00:21:56,109 Speaker 1: an answer. 438 00:21:56,509 --> 00:22:00,149 Speaker 2: I don't think it has impacted how I do my job. 439 00:22:00,389 --> 00:22:04,349 Speaker 2: I initially saw this and went, oh, this can be weaponized. 440 00:22:04,749 --> 00:22:07,429 Speaker 2: Like I was a little bit like Ellen, it's bad 441 00:22:07,469 --> 00:22:08,829 Speaker 2: for the call yeah, exactly. 442 00:22:08,949 --> 00:22:11,309 Speaker 1: My second thought was it is still going on. 443 00:22:11,389 --> 00:22:12,949 Speaker 4: I had no idea. 444 00:22:13,029 --> 00:22:15,429 Speaker 2: I had no idea, but I thought, I don't want 445 00:22:16,109 --> 00:22:21,349 Speaker 2: some CEO thinking moms aren't valuable in the workforce, or 446 00:22:21,349 --> 00:22:24,469 Speaker 2: they've always got their head somewhere else, or they're chaotic. 447 00:22:24,549 --> 00:22:25,149 Speaker 4: I don't, I. 448 00:22:25,109 --> 00:22:27,669 Speaker 1: Don't, and I don't think that's true. Like I always 449 00:22:27,709 --> 00:22:30,989 Speaker 1: think of this quote, which I thought was from Gwyneth Paltrow, 450 00:22:31,029 --> 00:22:33,429 Speaker 1: but I believe it's actually from Elise Loanen, who used 451 00:22:33,429 --> 00:22:36,349 Speaker 1: to be the chief content officer at Goop with Gwyneth Paltrow, 452 00:22:36,389 --> 00:22:38,789 Speaker 1: and she said that at Goop they always looked to 453 00:22:38,949 --> 00:22:43,829 Speaker 1: hire moms because they said moms make for good hires. 454 00:22:43,869 --> 00:22:46,469 Speaker 1: The amount that I can accomplish in twenty minutes is 455 00:22:46,509 --> 00:22:49,229 Speaker 1: truly shocking to me, and that is true. I do 456 00:22:49,349 --> 00:22:52,989 Speaker 1: feel like my brain now is always racing along, and 457 00:22:53,069 --> 00:22:55,749 Speaker 1: I'm brushing my teeth thinking about something that I need 458 00:22:55,749 --> 00:22:57,629 Speaker 1: to do for work and something I need to do 459 00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:59,669 Speaker 1: for the kids, Whereas before I might have just been 460 00:22:59,669 --> 00:23:02,909 Speaker 1: brushing my teeth thinking some nice thoughts about what I 461 00:23:02,909 --> 00:23:03,709 Speaker 1: was going to have for dinner. 462 00:23:03,949 --> 00:23:06,789 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a great quote by a philosopher named 463 00:23:06,789 --> 00:23:09,429 Speaker 2: Agnes Khaled, who says giving birth to a baby is 464 00:23:09,469 --> 00:23:12,549 Speaker 2: literally into and it is not always clear which one 465 00:23:12,669 --> 00:23:16,229 Speaker 2: your eye goes with, like it is a case of 466 00:23:16,549 --> 00:23:18,989 Speaker 2: My mum always said that the superpower she wanted was 467 00:23:18,989 --> 00:23:21,069 Speaker 2: to be in two places at once. It's his desperation 468 00:23:21,189 --> 00:23:22,949 Speaker 2: to be in two places at once, which is a 469 00:23:22,989 --> 00:23:24,709 Speaker 2: really new thing. 470 00:23:24,989 --> 00:23:27,669 Speaker 1: I don't have that desperation really now that my kids 471 00:23:27,669 --> 00:23:30,229 Speaker 1: are at school. I'm very happy that they're at school 472 00:23:30,269 --> 00:23:33,469 Speaker 1: and that I'm at work, so I don't feel bifurcated 473 00:23:33,469 --> 00:23:36,669 Speaker 1: in that way. I just feel like my brain is 474 00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:39,709 Speaker 1: always thinking about multiple things in a way that it 475 00:23:39,829 --> 00:23:40,509 Speaker 1: wasn't before. 476 00:23:41,069 --> 00:23:43,869 Speaker 2: So there was this article in The Cut last year 477 00:23:43,989 --> 00:23:47,109 Speaker 2: by Anastasia Berg that was called what if motherhood isn't 478 00:23:47,109 --> 00:23:48,109 Speaker 2: transformative at all? 479 00:23:48,189 --> 00:23:48,749 Speaker 4: Did she read this? 480 00:23:48,909 --> 00:23:52,069 Speaker 2: Oh no, it was so interesting, she said. We're often 481 00:23:52,149 --> 00:23:55,429 Speaker 2: told that becoming a parent will alter one's identity. For me, 482 00:23:55,629 --> 00:23:59,629 Speaker 2: the change never came. And she says, I had my baby, 483 00:23:59,829 --> 00:24:02,589 Speaker 2: I'm looking around, I'm asking the same questions of the 484 00:24:02,629 --> 00:24:05,029 Speaker 2: same friends, the same problems, and I'm interested in the 485 00:24:05,069 --> 00:24:08,229 Speaker 2: same petty gossip. And I wondered if we talk about 486 00:24:08,229 --> 00:24:13,949 Speaker 2: motherhood sometimes such absolutes as though there is this universal 487 00:24:13,989 --> 00:24:17,909 Speaker 2: experience of becoming a mother and some things that you say, 488 00:24:18,029 --> 00:24:20,869 Speaker 2: you go, oh, my goodness, I feel so sane about 489 00:24:20,869 --> 00:24:24,789 Speaker 2: this very specific human experience. But I said, somewhere in 490 00:24:24,789 --> 00:24:27,469 Speaker 2: between these two, it's like, I don't know if I 491 00:24:27,509 --> 00:24:30,869 Speaker 2: do feel like I'm a completely different person who's a 492 00:24:30,909 --> 00:24:33,789 Speaker 2: different person at work than I was before I had 493 00:24:33,789 --> 00:24:37,549 Speaker 2: a baby. And it was like afterwards, I remember walking 494 00:24:37,549 --> 00:24:40,549 Speaker 2: around and going, oh, I was so worried I'd have 495 00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:43,189 Speaker 2: a totally different identity. And I still feel like myself. 496 00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:46,389 Speaker 2: I never had that identity crisis. Maybe I've had like 497 00:24:46,429 --> 00:24:49,269 Speaker 2: work crisis, time crisis, but like I have felt like 498 00:24:49,349 --> 00:24:50,349 Speaker 2: Jesse the whole way through. 499 00:24:50,789 --> 00:24:54,149 Speaker 1: I'm doing everything I can at work to prove that 500 00:24:54,189 --> 00:24:57,229 Speaker 1: I'm not a different person. Yeah, and I'm almost swinging 501 00:24:57,229 --> 00:25:00,549 Speaker 1: to the opposite extreme. So, for instance, I think a 502 00:25:00,589 --> 00:25:03,509 Speaker 1: lot of my colleagues at work do not know that 503 00:25:03,589 --> 00:25:06,949 Speaker 1: I have children, and I kind of like it that way. 504 00:25:07,709 --> 00:25:10,709 Speaker 1: I very much like to categorize the from parts of 505 00:25:10,749 --> 00:25:12,149 Speaker 1: my life and keep them separate. 506 00:25:12,309 --> 00:25:14,509 Speaker 2: They're going to be so confused about why you're hosting 507 00:25:14,509 --> 00:25:15,349 Speaker 2: this podcast, Amelia. 508 00:25:15,389 --> 00:25:16,389 Speaker 4: They're going to be like, why is she on a 509 00:25:16,429 --> 00:25:16,989 Speaker 4: parenting out out. 510 00:25:17,509 --> 00:25:21,549 Speaker 1: I got to be confused. I just don't like to 511 00:25:21,629 --> 00:25:24,229 Speaker 1: talk about it at work. I think it's because I'm 512 00:25:24,309 --> 00:25:26,869 Speaker 1: sensitive to the idea of oh, she's always talking about 513 00:25:26,869 --> 00:25:30,149 Speaker 1: her kids. And I remember that before I had kids, 514 00:25:30,989 --> 00:25:34,589 Speaker 1: I would be resentful of mothers who left work early 515 00:25:34,669 --> 00:25:38,269 Speaker 1: to pick their kids up from school. I'd roll my eyes. 516 00:25:38,429 --> 00:25:40,469 Speaker 1: I'd say, they're not working as hard as I am. 517 00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:42,349 Speaker 1: Now I know that's not the case, because I know 518 00:25:42,389 --> 00:25:44,109 Speaker 1: that they're picking them up from school and then they're 519 00:25:44,149 --> 00:25:47,469 Speaker 1: going home and they're doing a second shift. But I'm 520 00:25:47,509 --> 00:25:50,789 Speaker 1: doing everything I can to prove that I am the 521 00:25:50,829 --> 00:25:53,189 Speaker 1: same person as I was before kids. And maybe it's 522 00:25:53,189 --> 00:25:56,149 Speaker 1: a little exhausting. It doesn't seem like you were working 523 00:25:56,189 --> 00:25:57,149 Speaker 1: that hard to keep that. 524 00:25:57,349 --> 00:26:00,549 Speaker 2: No, I still feel like the same person, and I 525 00:26:00,589 --> 00:26:03,069 Speaker 2: think my definition of one hundred percent has changed. 526 00:26:03,149 --> 00:26:04,029 Speaker 4: I reckon that's what it. 527 00:26:03,949 --> 00:26:04,629 Speaker 1: Is, okay, Tommy. 528 00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:08,629 Speaker 2: It's like, one hundred percent doesn't mean that you're in 529 00:26:08,669 --> 00:26:10,469 Speaker 2: the office for twelve hours, And if there was an 530 00:26:10,469 --> 00:26:13,949 Speaker 2: opportunity to come up tonight before Luna, I would have 531 00:26:14,029 --> 00:26:16,189 Speaker 2: probably leaned into it, and now I can't, which is 532 00:26:16,189 --> 00:26:18,709 Speaker 2: totally fine. But that doesn't mean that the projects that 533 00:26:18,749 --> 00:26:22,909 Speaker 2: I choose to do, I don't put full, unabashed effort 534 00:26:22,909 --> 00:26:25,029 Speaker 2: into like I still absolutely do. 535 00:26:25,109 --> 00:26:26,949 Speaker 4: It's just maybe I do less projects. 536 00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:29,029 Speaker 1: Are you thinking in the back of your head about 537 00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:31,949 Speaker 1: whether Luna will eat frozen peas for dinner? Be honest, 538 00:26:32,109 --> 00:26:35,309 Speaker 1: I'm actually not okay. Well, I think that my brain 539 00:26:35,389 --> 00:26:38,309 Speaker 1: might be broken. I think I'm actually quite good. And 540 00:26:38,389 --> 00:26:39,989 Speaker 1: I know this is something you're not meant to say 541 00:26:39,989 --> 00:26:43,149 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five. Ye, I'm very good at focus. 542 00:26:43,309 --> 00:26:43,829 Speaker 4: I look at what. 543 00:26:45,389 --> 00:26:49,029 Speaker 2: Disturbe, do not disturb, and look Sometimes, especially if she's sick, 544 00:26:49,069 --> 00:26:50,749 Speaker 2: I find that really hard. I find it hard to 545 00:26:50,749 --> 00:26:53,269 Speaker 2: be or if she's been upset or whatever. But you know, 546 00:26:53,349 --> 00:26:55,949 Speaker 2: Maya talks about ADHD and her experience with the way 547 00:26:55,949 --> 00:26:58,189 Speaker 2: her brain works, and I always think my brain is 548 00:26:58,189 --> 00:27:01,029 Speaker 2: a complete opposite. Like, I feel as though I can 549 00:27:01,069 --> 00:27:03,349 Speaker 2: sit down focus. I'm here when I'm here, and I'm 550 00:27:03,349 --> 00:27:04,989 Speaker 2: there when I'm there. I feel like I can do that. 551 00:27:05,549 --> 00:27:08,749 Speaker 2: It's time for our recommendations of the week, Amelia, what 552 00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:09,309 Speaker 2: have you got? 553 00:27:09,469 --> 00:27:12,069 Speaker 1: I came home the other day check the mail and 554 00:27:12,469 --> 00:27:15,749 Speaker 1: there was a National geographic kids magazine in the mail, 555 00:27:15,789 --> 00:27:17,949 Speaker 1: and I thought, what a thoughtful gift from a sort 556 00:27:17,989 --> 00:27:21,469 Speaker 1: of benevolent care of my children in our orbit, who 557 00:27:21,509 --> 00:27:24,509 Speaker 1: just thought they needed some education. And I asked my 558 00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:26,429 Speaker 1: partner if you knew anything about it. He told me, 559 00:27:26,469 --> 00:27:30,349 Speaker 1: you got a deal through McDonald's for it. So that's 560 00:27:30,389 --> 00:27:34,789 Speaker 1: why we're now subscribed to National Geographic Kids Magazine Mini magazine. 561 00:27:34,829 --> 00:27:36,869 Speaker 1: He goes to McDonald's a lot. I think they have 562 00:27:36,989 --> 00:27:42,349 Speaker 1: some kind of VIP experience where you get free magazine subscriptions. Anyway, 563 00:27:42,709 --> 00:27:46,229 Speaker 1: I've been delighted by this product. A couple of reasons 564 00:27:46,269 --> 00:27:48,549 Speaker 1: why I love it. It's a little kid's magazine with 565 00:27:48,629 --> 00:27:49,469 Speaker 1: puzzles and. 566 00:27:49,349 --> 00:27:51,429 Speaker 2: Weird facts, so it's written four kids. 567 00:27:51,469 --> 00:27:54,229 Speaker 1: It's written for kids. It comes every month, and it's 568 00:27:54,269 --> 00:27:56,549 Speaker 1: got lots of good photos in it of weird insects. 569 00:27:56,829 --> 00:28:00,029 Speaker 1: I love that about it. But a young person literally 570 00:28:00,149 --> 00:28:02,429 Speaker 1: asked me the other day, someone who works at mum 571 00:28:02,429 --> 00:28:06,789 Speaker 1: and Mia, what a magazine was, and I paused for 572 00:28:06,869 --> 00:28:09,029 Speaker 1: a second. So I figure I should probably explain on 573 00:28:09,069 --> 00:28:11,669 Speaker 1: this podcast for anyone doesn't know. I used to work 574 00:28:11,709 --> 00:28:14,149 Speaker 1: with a boss at a magazine who describe magazines as 575 00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:17,349 Speaker 1: the ultimate technology. They never run out of batteries, you 576 00:28:17,389 --> 00:28:20,669 Speaker 1: can fold them under your arm, and they don't require 577 00:28:20,669 --> 00:28:23,869 Speaker 1: a USB cord. What else could you want from anything? 578 00:28:24,429 --> 00:28:24,749 Speaker 4: True? 579 00:28:24,789 --> 00:28:26,509 Speaker 1: And it turns out I can't believe I'm having to 580 00:28:26,549 --> 00:28:28,669 Speaker 1: explain this, but I think in twenty twenty five I do. 581 00:28:28,909 --> 00:28:31,669 Speaker 1: The great thing about magazines is you can take them 582 00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:34,629 Speaker 1: to a cafe or to a sports game. You do 583 00:28:34,709 --> 00:28:38,229 Speaker 1: not require a power point, and then you can just 584 00:28:38,509 --> 00:28:42,869 Speaker 1: entertain a child with this most old of technologies. 585 00:28:43,029 --> 00:28:45,709 Speaker 2: Gather throw it in the backseat when they're winging. 586 00:28:45,909 --> 00:28:50,229 Speaker 1: Yes, gather around and listen to the law of magazines. Anyway. 587 00:28:50,269 --> 00:28:52,229 Speaker 1: I also have one other thing to tell you, which 588 00:28:52,269 --> 00:28:54,869 Speaker 1: is that a pangolan's tongue can be up to seventy 589 00:28:54,909 --> 00:28:57,029 Speaker 1: one centimeters in length, and that's almost as long as 590 00:28:57,069 --> 00:28:57,589 Speaker 1: its body. 591 00:28:57,789 --> 00:29:00,589 Speaker 2: So that's fascinating. See, these are things that we should 592 00:29:00,629 --> 00:29:02,949 Speaker 2: all know. This is why I love having kids around, 593 00:29:02,989 --> 00:29:04,149 Speaker 2: because they're full of fun. 594 00:29:03,989 --> 00:29:06,749 Speaker 1: Facts, and the National Geographic for Kids will teach you 595 00:29:06,749 --> 00:29:07,229 Speaker 1: these things. 596 00:29:07,469 --> 00:29:11,629 Speaker 2: My recommendation is very, very basic, Amelia. When you were 597 00:29:11,629 --> 00:29:14,229 Speaker 2: in the baby baby trenches, did you ever. 598 00:29:14,069 --> 00:29:14,909 Speaker 4: Play the happy song? 599 00:29:15,189 --> 00:29:16,669 Speaker 1: No? I don't know what that is, Okay. 600 00:29:16,829 --> 00:29:18,909 Speaker 2: I worry that people haven't heard of a happy song 601 00:29:18,989 --> 00:29:21,749 Speaker 2: when it's the only hack. So do you know that 602 00:29:21,989 --> 00:29:23,189 Speaker 2: artist image and hate? 603 00:29:23,309 --> 00:29:25,229 Speaker 1: I don't know any Okay, image and hate. 604 00:29:25,229 --> 00:29:27,829 Speaker 4: Did you ever watch the oc Amelily? I thought you're 605 00:29:27,829 --> 00:29:28,349 Speaker 4: a millennial. 606 00:29:28,749 --> 00:29:31,629 Speaker 1: I'm an elder millennial. I'm waiting magazines. 607 00:29:32,709 --> 00:29:35,869 Speaker 2: Okay, image Heape is this person who wrote like actual 608 00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:38,549 Speaker 2: good adult music. But she has written this song I 609 00:29:38,549 --> 00:29:41,149 Speaker 2: don't know when. It is called the Happy Song, and 610 00:29:41,189 --> 00:29:43,389 Speaker 2: it is designed to make babies stop crying. 611 00:29:43,509 --> 00:29:44,949 Speaker 4: It's like, god fell I say. 612 00:29:44,749 --> 00:29:46,029 Speaker 1: It was designed to make babies. 613 00:29:46,109 --> 00:29:49,509 Speaker 4: I was like, Lessie, No, it's the opposite. You'll put 614 00:29:49,509 --> 00:29:51,349 Speaker 4: that on and it's not arousing at all. 615 00:29:51,709 --> 00:29:55,269 Speaker 2: It's like, got little weird little sounds and the tone 616 00:29:55,309 --> 00:29:57,429 Speaker 2: of her voice, in the tone of the sounds is meant. 617 00:29:57,229 --> 00:30:00,189 Speaker 4: To do something to bring Okay, I'm crying. Right. 618 00:30:00,189 --> 00:30:02,989 Speaker 2: So I saw this on TikTok I think before I 619 00:30:02,989 --> 00:30:04,829 Speaker 2: had Luna, And so every time she's crying in the 620 00:30:04,829 --> 00:30:06,909 Speaker 2: car or whatever, I put on a happy song. I 621 00:30:06,949 --> 00:30:10,229 Speaker 2: reckon it's got eighty five percent success. Right, Wow, it 622 00:30:10,509 --> 00:30:11,869 Speaker 2: is really really good. 623 00:30:12,229 --> 00:30:15,909 Speaker 1: This reminds me of a bonus recommendation I have. Oh 624 00:30:15,949 --> 00:30:23,069 Speaker 1: there is a jewel album of lalabies jewels in Yeah, yeah, yeah, 625 00:30:25,909 --> 00:30:31,509 Speaker 1: lyrics anyway, it's lallabies. And if you have kids who 626 00:30:31,589 --> 00:30:33,949 Speaker 1: are small and who nap in the car, which obviously 627 00:30:34,029 --> 00:30:37,469 Speaker 1: I would never have done because kids require good sleep hygen. 628 00:30:37,589 --> 00:30:39,909 Speaker 1: But you know, hypothetically, if they were napping in the car, 629 00:30:40,029 --> 00:30:43,829 Speaker 1: you put it on. Children literally cannot get through the 630 00:30:43,869 --> 00:30:46,389 Speaker 1: first track of the album without falling asleep. 631 00:30:46,709 --> 00:30:48,949 Speaker 2: There needs to be like a hand out at the 632 00:30:48,949 --> 00:30:51,669 Speaker 2: hospital that tells you these things like this, people haven't 633 00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:53,629 Speaker 2: heard of it. And I'm like, even at nearly two, 634 00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:56,869 Speaker 2: if she's losing it, I will put on and she'll 635 00:30:56,909 --> 00:30:58,229 Speaker 2: go no happy song because she. 636 00:30:58,189 --> 00:30:59,669 Speaker 4: Knows and wow. 637 00:30:59,709 --> 00:31:00,629 Speaker 1: But then she's happy. 638 00:31:00,669 --> 00:31:02,429 Speaker 4: But then she's like, damn it, I've stopped crying. 639 00:31:02,469 --> 00:31:03,549 Speaker 1: Does it make you happy? 640 00:31:03,909 --> 00:31:06,269 Speaker 2: It makes me happy if she stops crying. But the 641 00:31:06,309 --> 00:31:09,629 Speaker 2: sound of it I now associate with desperation. So in 642 00:31:09,629 --> 00:31:12,149 Speaker 2: a lot of ways, it's like I will be I'm 643 00:31:12,189 --> 00:31:15,349 Speaker 2: so happy when I never hear it again. That is 644 00:31:15,389 --> 00:31:18,109 Speaker 2: all we have time for on Parenting Out Loud today. 645 00:31:18,349 --> 00:31:21,789 Speaker 2: Our MoMA Mia studios are styled with furniture from Fenton 646 00:31:21,869 --> 00:31:22,309 Speaker 2: and Fenton. 647 00:31:22,709 --> 00:31:24,149 Speaker 4: Visit Fenton and Fenton. 648 00:31:23,949 --> 00:31:31,069 Speaker 2: Dot com dot au and we will see you next Saturday. Bye.