Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about.
Speaker 2: On Wednesday, the twenty eighth of August. I'm Holly Wainwright,
Speaker 2: I'm mea Friedman.
Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stephens.
Speaker 2: An on today's show, two very famous women have closed
Speaker 2: their clothing businesses this week? Are we seeing the end
Speaker 2: of the celebrity side hustle? And there are tears in
Speaker 2: the Mommamea office about the divorce of a celebrity that
Speaker 2: I've literally never heard of. Jesse is bringing us all
Speaker 2: the gossip about the benefit scale split of someone called
Speaker 2: Molly May. I had to check.
Speaker 4: Ons also, are dancing sexy centers enough to make you
Speaker 4: walk out of a work meeting.
Speaker 2: Some media business employees just found their limit. But first,
Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 5: Women's voices and faces are forbidden to be heard or
Speaker 5: shown outside the home in Afghanistan, following new virtue laws
Speaker 5: introduced by the Taliban three years ago. The militant group
Speaker 5: retook control of the country and as one woman from
Speaker 5: Kabul said, day by day they are trying to erase
Speaker 5: women from society.
Speaker 6: This news honestly took my breath away. It's unimaginable.
Speaker 5: And the penalties for if you were to show your
Speaker 5: face or you were to use your voice, and this
Speaker 5: includes if you are inside your home and you are
Speaker 5: talking or you are singing and it can be heard
Speaker 5: outside your home, there are penalties for that. This is
Speaker 5: from the Justice Ministry. The penalties include advice, warnings of
Speaker 5: divine punishment, verbal threats, confiscation of property, detention for one
Speaker 5: hour to three days in public jails, and any other
Speaker 5: punishment deemed appropriate.
Speaker 1: That is so sinister.
Speaker 6: I remember when the Taliban took back control of Afghanistan
Speaker 6: and the world was like, oh no, and they were
Speaker 6: like no, guys, don't worry. Were actually fine, like women
Speaker 6: are going to be fine. And then over the last
Speaker 6: few years since that happened, they've systematically raised women from
Speaker 6: public life, preventing women from going to university, preventing them
Speaker 6: from going to school, preventing them from leaving their house unaccompanied.
Speaker 6: Now face voice. Also, you're not allowed to have photographs of.
Speaker 5: A living thing, of a living person, So if you
Speaker 5: know we think about our homes, or if you've got
Speaker 5: a loved one or a child or a mother or
Speaker 5: anything that's just maybe on the other side of the
Speaker 5: country or living overseas, then that's punishable to have a
Speaker 5: photograph in your home.
Speaker 2: I just find this so moving. Over the past three years,
Speaker 2: one of the things that's happened is that female journalists
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan have slowly had to adjust and Titan and
Speaker 2: adjustin Titan. So when the Taliban took over, there were
Speaker 2: quite a few female news anchors journalists on Afghan television
Speaker 2: and they had to tighten their hit ups so that
Speaker 2: absolutely no hair was visible. Then the laws changed again
Speaker 2: and they had to wear face masks while they were
Speaker 2: delivering the news, and some of the media organizations have
Speaker 2: insisted on keeping like they really want to keep these
Speaker 2: women on screen, so they've been doing this. Okay, a
Speaker 2: mask is fine now because their voices aren't allowed to
Speaker 2: be heard. Live feeds of press conferences where women are
Speaker 2: asking questions get cut in the middle of broadcast because
Speaker 2: their voices are allowed to be heard, so it's literally
Speaker 2: pushing them off. The bravery of those women and also
Speaker 2: the men who are working around them, who are trying
Speaker 2: to protect them and keep them on screens is just
Speaker 2: I just salute them. It's just so sad.
Speaker 5: And what you're saying about media the photographs is really
Speaker 5: important too, because if you're trying to report from inside
Speaker 5: Afghanistan about what's happening and about the lives of women,
Speaker 5: you can't if you can't publish a photograph, which is
Speaker 5: another way in which what's happening inside Afghanistan is being
Speaker 5: rendered invisible.
Speaker 6: We have more information about this devastating story on Muma Maya.
Speaker 1: There's a link in the show notes.
Speaker 2: Until this week. If you're in New York City and
Speaker 2: you wanted to spot Sarah Jessica park in the wild,
Speaker 2: your best bet was to head to a shoe shop
Speaker 2: on the corner of Bleeker and Perry Street, just around
Speaker 2: the corner from where Carrie Bradshaw's very famous apartment is.
Speaker 3: Really because I've been to that apartment two times.
Speaker 2: There you go. She used to literally work in the
Speaker 2: SJP by Sarah Jessica Parker shop some days, saying that
Speaker 2: staying close to her customer, watching them hold and feel
Speaker 2: and try on her shoes, was the key to keeping
Speaker 2: the designs relevant to the women who wanted a little
Speaker 2: bit of carry magic on their feet. They had shoes
Speaker 2: like bridleheels that had Hello Lover stamped on their toes
Speaker 2: and things like that. But no more, because this week
Speaker 2: SJP quietly announced a fashion press that after nine years,
Speaker 2: the shoe brand was closing, and there's currently an everything
Speaker 2: must Go sale on their website to shift the last
Speaker 2: of the stock. Another high profile woman much closer to home,
Speaker 2: is also shuddering her business this week. Constance Hall is
Speaker 2: a name I'm sure you're all very familiar with. This week,
Speaker 2: she announced on Facebook and Instagram, where she has million
Speaker 2: of followers, that Queen the Label, her online clothing business
Speaker 2: that specialized in floaty boho fashion and always donated a
Speaker 2: portion of the profit to charity, was closing down. The
Speaker 2: conflict she was feeling about this was evident in the
Speaker 2: announcement she posted with trademark honesty. She said, I have
Speaker 2: dreaded telling you guys this because I've tried everything to
Speaker 2: avoid it, and I'm still losing my breath with anxious
Speaker 2: butterflies swirling in my stomach every second. I have put
Speaker 2: Queen the Label into voluntary administration after a week long
Speaker 2: panic attack with confusion over bookwork that I simply do
Speaker 2: not understand. I was told that nobody should have to
Speaker 2: live with the stress that this company puts on me
Speaker 2: in my life, and they were right. I've been stressed
Speaker 2: out for seven years, seven years of not giving my
Speaker 2: kids the time they deserve, seven years of not enjoying
Speaker 2: my life while the impending doom of not having made
Speaker 2: enough money hung over me. And it stops now now.
Speaker 2: To be clear, these women have a lot of other
Speaker 2: things going on right. Hall is a content creator. She
Speaker 2: still has another business called The Lover's Heart Club where
Speaker 2: she set like Art and Home was SJP of course
Speaker 2: different scale altogether, still has a wine label a fragrance,
Speaker 2: and of course she's an actress who's filming season three
Speaker 2: of them just like that at the moment. But mea
Speaker 2: as our out loud business correspondent, is this just the
Speaker 2: economy and these are high profile examples of something that's
Speaker 2: happening everywhere on very different scales, or is it symptomatic
Speaker 2: of the end of the celebrity side hustle.
Speaker 6: I think it's a little bit of both. I mean,
Speaker 6: the economy is incredibly hard, retail is incredibly hard, and
Speaker 6: the apparel is among the hardest. I mean, all you
Speaker 6: have to do is search for genes or pretty much anything,
Speaker 6: any item of clothing, shoes, or accessories, and you'll probably
Speaker 6: be served a bunch of ads from like Temu, where
Speaker 6: you can buy them for like six dollars.
Speaker 1: The little guys.
Speaker 6: Are finding it increasingly tough because when you're an enormous
Speaker 6: company who manufactures off sor you can do it quite cheaply,
Speaker 6: and you can sell it quite cheaply for a decent markup.
Speaker 5: The way I understand it is that the bottom line
Speaker 5: of the big businesses is getting bigger and bigger, whereas
Speaker 5: the small businesses are crumbling as a result. So even
Speaker 5: you know, yeah, there's the example of the big like
Speaker 5: next day delivery all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 6: And so if Zara or Tema Orchine making a T shirt,
Speaker 6: they'll put in an order for a million units, maybe
Speaker 6: two million units. If Constance Hall is making a T shirt,
Speaker 6: she'll put in an order for five hundred units. So
Speaker 6: you can imagine the cost of two million units is
Speaker 6: maybe forty cents a unit, and the cost of ordering
Speaker 6: five hundred is probably four dollars or ten dollars a unit.
Speaker 6: So it's really tough. And I think what's been interesting
Speaker 6: about the Internet and social media in particularly, it's allowed
Speaker 6: women to not just sell other people's products because women
Speaker 6: have always done that, famous women, but to go direct
Speaker 6: to consumer and sell their own.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not all doom and gloom.
Speaker 6: I mean you just have to look at business women
Speaker 6: in Australia like Zoe Foster Blake, who has built a
Speaker 6: company worth hundreds of millions of dollars which she then
Speaker 6: sold and then brought back again at a fraction of
Speaker 6: the price. So it's not that it is impossible. And
Speaker 6: we've seen Celeste Barbara just start her beauty line, so
Speaker 6: there's lots of women who are still doing it, famous
Speaker 6: women who are still doing it. But it is really
Speaker 6: hard to compete.
Speaker 5: Because there's someone who I'm not a business person. I
Speaker 5: don't claim to understand the ins and outs, and in fact,
Speaker 5: I take such pride in knowing I will never have
Speaker 5: a product. It's sort of like knowing I'll never run
Speaker 5: a marathon. It's like a very relieving.
Speaker 6: But I thought I'd never work for myself. I never
Speaker 6: thought I would be self employed.
Speaker 3: I just think never. It looks like the hardest thing
Speaker 3: in the world, but it is.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's the hardest thing in the world, but
Speaker 6: it's hard.
Speaker 5: Part of the marketing of having a brand is to
Speaker 5: promote almost like a scarcity mindset and to go, it's
Speaker 5: flying off the shelves, get it now, we're having a
Speaker 5: last sale. Like part of marketing is to project this
Speaker 5: image that your business is thriving, which I imagine compounds the
Speaker 5: pain of most business owners who feel as though they're
Speaker 5: not thriving.
Speaker 6: Constance always did that really, really well, which is why
Speaker 6: it was a big surprise even to me to read
Speaker 6: that it was closing, because she's an outstanding marketer, and
Speaker 6: she said in that post, so much of the investment
Speaker 6: of building this label was from the proceeds of her book,
Speaker 6: because she again didn't go with a publisher, took a
Speaker 6: risk ten years ago and self published a memoir and
Speaker 6: made a fortune, a fortune like several million.
Speaker 1: Dollars on precedent and unprecedented.
Speaker 6: It was like change the game in publishing, and no
Speaker 6: one's been able to replicate that, including her. But no
Speaker 6: one's been able to replicate that, even other big name
Speaker 6: authors or go with big companies. So being really good
Speaker 6: at marketing is different to being really good at business,
Speaker 6: and if you don't have the right partners. I know
Speaker 6: a lot of things, but if I hadn't been a
Speaker 6: co founder of Muma Mia with my husband Jason, who
Speaker 6: was CEO, there's no way I could have done this.
Speaker 6: There's no way or could continue to do this. I
Speaker 6: want to ask if there's a vibe shift, right. I mean,
Speaker 6: there are obviously very specific reasons for these people that
Speaker 6: we're talking about now for their businesses to work or
Speaker 6: not work, or whether or not they've just run their course.
Speaker 6: Whether you know sjp's Shoes was always going to have
Speaker 6: a ceiling.
Speaker 2: Really the other.
Speaker 6: Thing whole is social media and the algorithm, because it
Speaker 6: used to be SJP and Constance have millions of followers, right,
Speaker 6: and if you can go direct to them on social
Speaker 6: media and sell something, you don't need to spend money
Speaker 6: on advertising. You don't need to, you know, take out
Speaker 6: ads on TV or in Mama Mia. You can go direct.
Speaker 6: But as soon as you're reliant on someone else and
Speaker 6: an algorithm to deliver your customers to you so that
Speaker 6: they see what you're putting out there, it's not a
Speaker 6: reliable business model.
Speaker 2: When I say I wonder if there's been a vibe shift.
Speaker 2: I wonder if it's the means of operation have changed, because,
Speaker 2: as you say, social media has changed, but also there
Speaker 2: was a moment, and I think we're still in this moment.
Speaker 2: To be fair, that anyone with a big following or
Speaker 2: a big fame is very much encouraged now to own
Speaker 2: things like business. Didn't used to be cool twenty years
Speaker 2: ago if you were an artist or a creative, saying
Speaker 2: that you had a business mind or that you were
Speaker 2: interested in bottom lines and spreadsheets was very uncool, right,
Speaker 2: But we live in a time now where billionaires are
Speaker 2: pinups and every celebrity has a liquor brand, a skincare line.
Speaker 2: It's kind of cool to know a lot about business.
Speaker 2: But I wonder if there's a shift because we've realized
Speaker 2: the reality of just because you do have lots of followers,
Speaker 2: it doesn't guarantee success. And as what Constance expressed there,
Speaker 2: as I understand it because obviously when you were very
Speaker 2: involved in Ladies startup and we were always listening to
Speaker 2: female founders, it is incredibly stressful. When she was explaining
Speaker 2: that about staying awake at night, stressing about employees, bottom lines, payments,
Speaker 2: Do I have enough money? That's very common, right, That's
Speaker 2: that's what business women.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Is it just not bloody worth it for a lot
Speaker 2: of people.
Speaker 6: I think there's a lot of different reasons why people
Speaker 6: start businesses, you know, and it's not always just about money.
Speaker 6: I mean, obviously everyone has to make their own decisions
Speaker 6: about what they're willing to put up with, you know,
Speaker 6: and what's the return on investment in their life that
Speaker 6: makes it worth it to continue or not. But a
Speaker 6: lot of women, particularly women with side hustles, women with
Speaker 6: small businesses, start them for reasons around identity, around boredom,
Speaker 6: around wanting something to do that's not just being at
Speaker 6: home with kids, or being at home being a care
Speaker 6: for someone, or being at home being unwell.
Speaker 2: Or more flexible work.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I remember one woman I interviewed who had had
Speaker 6: a terrible car accident and became a wheelchair user, and
Speaker 6: she started a business like knitting. She lived on farm,
Speaker 6: bulls blankets and scars and stuff, and that was never
Speaker 6: going to set the world on fire. But that's not
Speaker 6: why she started it. It made enough to pay for itself,
Speaker 6: and she says that it saved her because it gave
Speaker 6: her purpose and I used to those stories all the
Speaker 6: time from we Yes.
Speaker 5: But then there's this other thing going on, right, which
Speaker 5: is that if you have a following, and we've talked
Speaker 5: about this, you don't necessarily make money from having two
Speaker 5: hundred thousand followers on Instagram, right, No, you don't. It's
Speaker 5: about monetizing a following. So I heard this said recently.
Speaker 5: You'll remember the other week we're talking about the person
Speaker 5: who coined the word demure, and she was talking about it,
Speaker 5: and suddenly her words are the most famous words in
Speaker 5: the world. I think it's like she must be so rich, yes,
Speaker 5: and I think she made a little bit of money
Speaker 5: just from views or something. But I heard people say
Speaker 5: she needs a product, she needs a product right now
Speaker 5: so that she can sell it, so that she can
Speaker 5: capitalize on it. I don't think that there is a
Speaker 5: clear recipe necessarily for making sure that's a product people
Speaker 5: actually want to buy, or making sure that she would
Speaker 5: be around the right people to create and also monetize instantly.
Speaker 5: It doesn't happen instantly. And the nature of fame and
Speaker 5: virality now is that the person who was famous story
Speaker 5: weeks ago is invisible today. But I'm not sure that
Speaker 5: a vibe shift is totally what's happening. I was listening
Speaker 5: to an interview with one of the guys from The
Speaker 5: Inspired Unemployed this week, Jack Steele. They made better beer.
Speaker 5: That is the fastest growing beer in Australian history. And
Speaker 5: I would say, just looking at those two guys, because
Speaker 5: they were making TikTok videos and they've got into lots
Speaker 5: of different projects from the outside, I go, whoever you're
Speaker 5: working with is giving you fantastic advice.
Speaker 3: Like, clearly the beer was a great thing.
Speaker 1: It was a good match.
Speaker 3: It was a really good match.
Speaker 5: They knew who their audience was, so there's still clearly potential.
Speaker 6: Back to the woman who had the very demure moment,
Speaker 6: Jules Lebron, she had two choices very quickly. One is
Speaker 6: to make her own products, which you can't do instantly. Well,
Speaker 6: you can with like a drop shit model, like you
Speaker 6: can get t shirts sort of printed in China or
Speaker 6: something and quickly get them shipped.
Speaker 1: You could do that.
Speaker 6: The other is to quickly take all the brand deals
Speaker 6: so everybody would be coming to her and its influencer work.
Speaker 6: So it's saying, okay, I've probably got two months to
Speaker 6: make good coin, I need to fish weather, fish are
Speaker 6: and do that as opposed to the longer lead and
Speaker 6: sell us.
Speaker 1: Barber's a great example of that.
Speaker 6: I mean, she's been famous for a really long time now,
Speaker 6: but she was the face of ModelCo and someone else's makeup,
Speaker 6: and she obviously decided, well, hang on, I know that
Speaker 6: I can move make up for them. Why aren't I
Speaker 6: doing this for myself? And so that's what she's doing
Speaker 6: now with a business partner. But it's very different because
Speaker 6: when you work for someone else, they have the infrastructure.
Speaker 6: When you work for yourself, suddenly you've got to be
Speaker 6: out there selling all the time, and not everybody's comfortable
Speaker 6: with doing that. Like, one thing you can say about
Speaker 6: Constance is that she knows how to sell things, and
Speaker 6: she was out there constantly working it, and yet that
Speaker 6: still wasn't enough.
Speaker 2: The most successful celebrity brands you can think of eventually
Speaker 2: transcend the celebrity. Right, So sample of the better beer
Speaker 2: that might be going really well right now, but in
Speaker 2: ten years, when the inspired unemployed have been I mean
Speaker 2: they'll be fine. I don't mean I'm worried about them,
Speaker 2: but like there'll be a new inspired on employed there'll
Speaker 2: be a new cool young guys who all the young
Speaker 2: people want to emulate better. Beer will only remain successful
Speaker 2: if it's bloody great and it's like solidified itself separate
Speaker 2: to them. It's kind of like fenty beauty or you
Speaker 2: know there are celebrity brands you can think of that. Yes,
Speaker 2: the celebrity helped get that out there, but now it's
Speaker 2: every time I think of fenty beauty and I see it,
Speaker 2: I don't immediately go Rhianna. I mean, I know this
Speaker 2: is a different scale.
Speaker 3: I don't know, I know, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: It's like the thing with Sjp's shoes, for example. And
Speaker 2: I'm not a business expert, but this is my vibe
Speaker 2: is there was always going to be a ceiling on
Speaker 2: how long people were obsessed with one and carry Bradshaw's heels,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?
Speaker 6: Everyone went to her with opportunities to either endorse or
Speaker 6: do a collab with a big brand, a big existing
Speaker 6: shoe brand, including like a Minola blank and then cheaper ones,
Speaker 6: but the price point for celebrity like Jessica Simpson, for example,
Speaker 6: who doesn't release music anymore, but she's a billionaire because
Speaker 6: she sells like dresses and shoes and sheets, and she's
Speaker 6: an entire lifestyle brand, and so she could have gone
Speaker 6: that way, but she wanted to go do her own thing,
Speaker 6: and she wanted it to be a certain quality. So
Speaker 6: the price point of these shoes were like five hundred dollars,
Speaker 6: and anyone that's got five hundred dollars to spend on
Speaker 6: shoes SJP is not She's a person who's known for
Speaker 6: having great shoes, but it's not like a Manolo Blanik
Speaker 6: or a Christian Liverton or.
Speaker 1: A Gucci or whatever.
Speaker 6: So I think there was that disconnect because people want
Speaker 6: to be adjacent to famous people. But that's why celebrities
Speaker 6: have fragrances, because you can buy a little bit of
Speaker 6: SJP for thirty bucks at Chemist Warehouse, you.
Speaker 3: Know, Lazy Girls.
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Speaker 3: It can't be done.
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Speaker 5: Season Life.
Speaker 7: I've been thinking about this all day ever since the
Speaker 7: Molly and Tommy breakup was announced and I just don't
Speaker 7: think that people understand the severity of how this is
Speaker 7: going to impact society. Think about it. Molly May has
Speaker 7: created a generation of girlies who like a slip back bone,
Speaker 7: a free at five hundred. They've got a new lip
Speaker 7: on and the most flawless, faked hand that you will
Speaker 7: ever see in your life. Every single one of them
Speaker 7: right now is sitting there thinking if it could happen
Speaker 7: to them, it could happen to me.
Speaker 5: When news reached the Mum Mayor office last week that
Speaker 5: a woman named Molly May Haig and a man named
Speaker 5: Tommy Fury was separating, there were literal tears.
Speaker 3: There were tears. Holly, don't understand.
Speaker 2: The words coming out of her mouth? Do you understand them?
Speaker 5: The statement this is our Princess Diana and Prince Charles
Speaker 5: moment was atted. Team felt blindsided and emotionally unequipped to
Speaker 5: deal with the news that on August fourteen, and otherwise
Speaker 5: normal quiet Wednesday, Molly May and Tommy were over.
Speaker 3: See these people?
Speaker 5: Before I go any further, Holly and Maa, do you
Speaker 5: have any questions regarding what.
Speaker 2: I just heard? All of the questions because I've seen
Speaker 2: this story around obviously, I work My May, and I've
Speaker 2: seen it on site. I haven't clicked on it because
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know who they are. So I
Speaker 2: looked at the picture. I was like, surely I'll just
Speaker 2: recognize their faces. No.
Speaker 5: Still, no, their English, Holly. I think that they might
Speaker 5: be friends with your parents because they live in Greater Manchester.
Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, so your parents. I bet they're talking
Speaker 5: about it all over this. Oh your mom's going to
Speaker 5: go Did you know Molly May and Toyo?
Speaker 2: That sounds embarrassing though I don't know what's happening yet.
Speaker 5: Okay, So Molly May Haig was on season five of
Speaker 5: Love Island obviously right, and she also had like a
Speaker 5: YouTube channel and everyone loves her just for she.
Speaker 2: An influencer who went on Love Island. Or was she
Speaker 2: went on Love Island and became an influence.
Speaker 6: She reminded me her Love works. I'm going back to base.
Speaker 5: She was an influencer who went on Love Island. It
Speaker 5: is an island full of love where there are just
Speaker 5: a bunch of people who like have mad sex together.
Speaker 5: And her and Tommy were runner UNPD.
Speaker 1: Is that the whole plot?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And they're hot and they walk around in bikinis.
Speaker 6: Run around bad So who wins the person who has
Speaker 6: the sex the most and doesn't get a UTR?
Speaker 5: No, no, no, the couple that's the most couple. They were
Speaker 5: the second most couple, the second most people. And so
Speaker 5: this was twenty nineteen. So this was five years ago,
Speaker 5: which is fifty years ago in reality. Okay, time, Yeah,
Speaker 5: you're right they're part of the establishment. Yeah, they're brad Nanch.
Speaker 5: Since then they've got married. They have a daughter. Her
Speaker 5: name is Bambi. She's about one and a half.
Speaker 2: No, all right, I quite like.
Speaker 3: Now you two are thinking, why should I care?
Speaker 1: A lot of nouns.
Speaker 6: There's a lot of proper nouns, none of which I
Speaker 6: can recall.
Speaker 5: Friends, if we were sitting at dinner and I said
Speaker 5: to you, friends of mine just broke up and there's
Speaker 5: something fishy going on, would you or would you not?
Speaker 3: Lean in? Of course you'd lean in. Okay, Well that's
Speaker 3: what we're gonna do.
Speaker 2: First of all, I'd express disapproval because it's my brand.
Speaker 2: I'd be like, are we really gossiping about this? Jesse?
Speaker 2: And then I would put down my wife class and
Speaker 2: I'd go, tell.
Speaker 1: Me, so, what have they done.
Speaker 6: Do they have jobs like or they just famous people?
Speaker 5: Okay, Tommy Fury in a weird way is related to
Speaker 5: a very famous boxer or something.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah, Tyson Fury. Yes, it's really famous.
Speaker 1: I know that is.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Okay, so that's and then there was like a Netflix
Speaker 5: show about blah blah blast the British people.
Speaker 3: Are we so?
Speaker 5: Holly's family friend Molly May post an Instagram story to
Speaker 5: her eight point two million followers eight eight point two Okay.
Speaker 5: It says, never in a million years did I think
Speaker 5: I'd have to write this after five years of being together.
Speaker 5: I never imagined our story would end, especially not this way.
Speaker 3: What does that tell you? What's if?
Speaker 2: But also can I just put my hand up?
Speaker 1: So dirty, dirty cheetah?
Speaker 2: I love it, of course, But also did anyone really
Speaker 2: think she was never going to have to write that?
Speaker 2: They met on a reality show five years ago, quickly
Speaker 2: got married and had a baby.
Speaker 1: Don't think you understand her love work?
Speaker 2: Didn't we all think she was going to come to
Speaker 2: a day when she was going to write this?
Speaker 5: They were Charles and Diana, right, they were, I've been
Speaker 5: together four five years?
Speaker 3: What about that?
Speaker 5: Are you're not understanding five years pre covid. Oh my god,
Speaker 5: now everyone's yelling Molly, tell us what happened.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 5: She then went on, she said our priority was her daughter.
Speaker 5: That's all lovely, and then she said that she will
Speaker 5: return to social media when it feels right.
Speaker 3: That was today she.
Speaker 5: Did, and how many an hour later and she said,
Speaker 5: thank you for your support. Have you too been supporting?
Speaker 5: Apparently we've been very supportive. All right, do we want
Speaker 5: to know what happened? Do we want to know what happened?
Speaker 4: All right?
Speaker 3: Well, the Sun knows what happened, so sit tight the Sun.
Speaker 6: Oh sorry, I thought you meant her son. I was confused.
Speaker 5: Guess the Sun is a tabloid newspaper and only ever
Speaker 5: tells the truth. Tommy, he was on holiday in North
Speaker 5: Macedonia and he was seen kissing a blonde woman in
Speaker 5: front of hundreds of people in a nightclub. Tommy just
Speaker 5: days before Mollie may announce very smart as he's not
Speaker 5: very smart. A nightclub girl was interviewed and said that
Speaker 5: Tommy didn't even seem to care that he was kissing
Speaker 5: a girl in front of everyone. And Tommy's security guard
Speaker 5: went up to people and was deleting pictures and videos
Speaker 5: off their phone, going you can't film Tommy cheating on
Speaker 5: his wife.
Speaker 4: It seems like an imperfect pr strategy for everybody. Give
Speaker 4: me your phone. I need your phone. You over there,
Speaker 4: give me your phone, and it's just one security guard
Speaker 4: trying to do all the work.
Speaker 5: Allegedly, he was then seen speaking to the same girl
Speaker 5: the following evening.
Speaker 3: You are the sun. What are you try and do next?
Speaker 2: Come on, hollod, We've trying to find the girl.
Speaker 3: We've found the girl, haven't we. We found her. She's Danish.
Speaker 2: She probably wasn't very hard to find.
Speaker 3: She wasn't. She just posted on her stories.
Speaker 5: She said, I've had to delete all my posts due
Speaker 5: to the hate and nasty comments.
Speaker 6: She's also taking a break from social media.
Speaker 5: She had to delete her things. As stated in the
Speaker 5: news story, I gave. I didn't do anything with Tommy Fury.
Speaker 5: I didn't even know who he was. We only shared
Speaker 5: a kiss. Nothing else happened. I wouldn't kissed himfu you
Speaker 5: is with Molly May Now back to the timeline, right,
Speaker 5: because he goes and cheats with this Danish This is
Speaker 5: all allegedly h but he's gone over there he's kissed her.
Speaker 5: Then he gets on a flight home to Manchester, right,
Speaker 5: and the flight's delayed. Always important, this important information. And
Speaker 5: it lands at two forty five pm. Right by three
Speaker 5: point fifty two pm, Molly May has announced their split
Speaker 5: to her Instagram followers. This suggests to me a video
Speaker 5: photo was sent to Molly May that quickly ended their
Speaker 5: relationship in what's that? Just over an hour? Just over
Speaker 5: an hour since he landed.
Speaker 2: It depends how far from the airport they.
Speaker 3: Leave, Yes, exactly right.
Speaker 6: Would you end a relationship and post about it in
Speaker 6: an hour after receiving a photo?
Speaker 3: It's a great way.
Speaker 5: No, okay, But I don't live in Molly May's world.
Speaker 5: I would if this was a pattern of behavior. Yeah, right,
Speaker 5: for sure, because I've seen Tommy. I've seen his face,
Speaker 5: and I just have a vibe.
Speaker 2: This is what I mean about everybody pretending they're surprised, Like,
Speaker 2: why would we be surprised? Do we really think that
Speaker 2: Tommy and Molly, two very good looking humans who found
Speaker 2: love on reality TV, were going to be monogamously together
Speaker 2: forever and ever and ever till they die?
Speaker 5: It's Laura Burne and Maddie Jay announced that they broke
Speaker 5: up tomorrow different, Oh, so upset. I'd be so upset
Speaker 5: because what it is is that been through a lot.
Speaker 5: Molly May has eight point two million girlfriends, right, so
Speaker 5: you know how like May Or if you got cheated
Speaker 5: on tomorrow, Holly and I would be giving Jason dirties. Right,
Speaker 5: we wouldn't be very friendly with him in the lift,
Speaker 5: I'll tell you that that's true.
Speaker 1: So now he's in a world of pain.
Speaker 5: Tommy took a little Bambi out for ice creamy the
Speaker 5: all day had to have security because people are just
Speaker 5: going you dirty, dirty dog. Imagine how brazen you have
Speaker 5: to be.
Speaker 6: Do you know what was interesting because when this happened,
Speaker 6: I was about to say to us, to Holly and
Speaker 6: I at the point when our friend Jennifer Aniston got
Speaker 6: cheated on by Brad Pitt, no one turned on Brad Pitt, like,
Speaker 6: not one person everyone because they all.
Speaker 1: Tend to know Jelina.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no one turned on Brad Pitt.
Speaker 2: So this might be progress. If Tommy Fiury is being
Speaker 2: harassed and beaten up in the street by angry ladies
Speaker 2: who were throwing their shoes at him with bamby like, well, no,
Speaker 2: of course, and I'm joking. Of course it's not okay
Speaker 2: then harass anyone in the street. But I'm just saying, like, culturally,
Speaker 2: at least they haven't all gone round to Danish lady's
Speaker 2: house and they're like painting evil slogans on her. I
Speaker 2: mean maybe they are.
Speaker 6: So what happens now to Molly May? She's back on
Speaker 6: social She's back on social. Who she's dating A Kennedy, No, she's.
Speaker 5: Not dating anyone yet because she's spending time with Bambi
Speaker 5: because she is a mother. And Tommy also he's denying
Speaker 5: that he cheated. But what I say to Tommy is
Speaker 5: the photos a giller leak, probably and the Danish woman
Speaker 5: has said that you cheated, so I think you definitely
Speaker 5: did cheat. I think he was a dirty dog. I
Speaker 5: think that Molly May good on her for finally ending this.
Speaker 5: I think that will be very good for her. But
Speaker 5: I also think that we're so invested because they have
Speaker 5: an eighteen month old and not only did he go
Speaker 5: to North Macedonia clubbing at two am, but he cheated
Speaker 5: on her in public. The sh oh, I'm so angry
Speaker 5: at him. I reckon Holly's Mom's gonna when he walks
Speaker 5: past Holly's mum on the street.
Speaker 3: She's going to tut at him.
Speaker 6: Because your mums drop over Orchestral I think maybe she
Speaker 6: should write Yeah, if you want to know more about
Speaker 6: Molly May and frankly, who doesn't come on. I've got
Speaker 6: a lot of questions remaining.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: There is a link in the show notes to the
Speaker 5: extensive coverage we've offered on my man.
Speaker 4: My mom is providing i''s life blogging from Manchester doing
Speaker 4: a live cross.
Speaker 1: To all his parents. Every Tuesday and Thursday.
Speaker 6: We drop new segments of Mum and Me are Out
Speaker 6: Loud Just for Mum and Me A subscribers follow the
Speaker 6: link in the show notes to get your daily dose
Speaker 6: of out Loud and a big thank you to everyone
Speaker 6: who has already subscribed. Last Friday, the Seven Networks parent
Speaker 6: companies Seven West Media held a staff meeting in Perth
Speaker 6: to introduce some new senior stuff. They wanted everyone to
Speaker 6: get to know them, including their new male editor in
Speaker 6: chief of the West Australian newspaper and a new female editor,
Speaker 6: the first one in the paper's history, as well as
Speaker 6: the first LGBT appointment. A man who is the head
Speaker 6: of the Sunday Times. I mean, I was a bit
Speaker 6: confused when I read that, because presumably it's not the
Speaker 6: first LGBT appointment to management, but perhaps it's the first
Speaker 6: person who's public about it.
Speaker 2: Doesn't if it is, is that something.
Speaker 3: To be proud of?
Speaker 4: My gods?
Speaker 2: And like this is the first?
Speaker 6: I guess what they're trying to say. The Seven Network,
Speaker 6: as we know, has been under a lot of fire
Speaker 6: lately for sexism and such things, and maybe they're trying
Speaker 6: to say it's a new chapter.
Speaker 1: We also are inclusive.
Speaker 6: We're woke, We're welcoming well done to everyone with a
Speaker 6: new job. The company was feeling celebratory, and why wouldn't
Speaker 6: you be. But after welcoming the newbies, discussion turned to
Speaker 6: the company's annual upfront's presentation to advertisers. Out louders might
Speaker 6: be familiar with upfronts. They're the torturous thing that media
Speaker 6: companies have to go through every year, where you go
Speaker 6: and basically say, here, all the good things we've.
Speaker 2: Got coming up with lots of times, haven't we we have?
Speaker 6: Anyway, So they talked about what shows they'll be announcing,
Speaker 6: and one of those shows is Perth's Christmas pageant, which
Speaker 6: is apparently an institution.
Speaker 3: I can't believe I've never watched it.
Speaker 6: And that's when things took a turn. All I Want
Speaker 6: for Christmas by Mariah Carey started playing.
Speaker 1: That wasn't the.
Speaker 6: Bad part, obviously, because who doesn't love that song for
Speaker 6: bagger and yet, according to the Australian Financial Review, the
Speaker 6: seven deputy news director was talking about the Christmas pageant
Speaker 6: and out came a group of female dancers dressed in
Speaker 6: well they said, not much at all, but I would
Speaker 6: say from having seen the video which was leaked and
Speaker 6: looking at the photos, it seemed like sort of i'm
Speaker 6: gonna say, skimpy red dresses, like red dresses, and they
Speaker 6: were doing they were sexy. It was a bit of
Speaker 6: a sexy Santa situation. They were doing like high kicks,
Speaker 6: a bit of a DCC vibe, a bit of a
Speaker 6: DCC vibe. But I was saying they probably were more covered.
Speaker 6: There was no midroof anyway. Pictures of the event pinned
Speaker 6: around Perth media circles, with one likening them to slutty elves,
Speaker 6: which I think is very udgy, judgy and unreasonable and
Speaker 6: also slight shaming of elves, but also those women who
Speaker 6: were al seriousness of professional dancers they dance at the pageant.
Speaker 6: That seems harsh. Another it was like the girls dancing
Speaker 6: around bill Ny in love. Actually yeah, that scene, and
Speaker 6: some compared it to the pageants scene from Mean Girls.
Speaker 6: But the point is that some female employees and potentially
Speaker 6: some male ones were dumb struck and horrified at what
Speaker 6: they were sitting through and some walked out in disgust. Now,
Speaker 6: entertainers during media parties are pretty common. A Christmas party
Speaker 6: might have some dances. I've been at a media conference
Speaker 6: where there were like Brazilian dancers, which I'll be honest,
Speaker 6: was a bit weird. They were kind of wearing nothing
Speaker 6: and they were sort of shaking bits and it was
Speaker 6: a work event. It for a little bit strange. A
Speaker 6: seven spokesperson said that it was for the pageant, you know,
Speaker 6: so what's wrong with it? But others have said, you know,
Speaker 6: it's midday, it's a work day, and what's so sexy
Speaker 6: about Christmas? Some have said, Jesse, you offended. Would you
Speaker 6: have been offended? Would you have walked out?
Speaker 5: I probably wouldn't have walked out, but just because I
Speaker 5: don't like confrontation and I don't like kind of spotlight,
Speaker 5: but I totally support. When I saw that footage, I
Speaker 5: had a few thoughts all at once. I kind of went, oh, well,
Speaker 5: they were consensually dancing and it was to promote something.
Speaker 5: And then I went and watched the footage and I thought, oh, no,
Speaker 5: I get it.
Speaker 3: I get it.
Speaker 5: If I am a woman working for Channel seven in
Speaker 5: my business suit at the front and I could see
Speaker 5: the women in particular, and it is eleven fifteen, it
Speaker 5: is not even midday, and these women come out and
Speaker 5: dance in their sexy Santa outfits, the messaging about what
Speaker 5: we value about women is very confused, and also it
Speaker 5: encapsulates this paradox of the modern moment, where we're going,
Speaker 5: look our first female editor, Look the sexy Santas doing
Speaker 5: sexy dance.
Speaker 3: I think it.
Speaker 6: Makes you so mad to play Devil's advocate. Isn't it
Speaker 6: just the spectrum of options that are available for women?
Speaker 5: I don't think so, because it's meant to be a
Speaker 5: work event, and it also makes me feel as a woman.
Speaker 5: It can make me feel very visible and oggl dat
Speaker 5: if that's the job is We're meant to be looking
Speaker 5: at these women's bodies and these women dancing and everything.
Speaker 5: I don't think we can tell this story without just
Speaker 5: adding in the context of Channel seven and the last
Speaker 5: few months. Obviously there was an ABC four corners investigation
Speaker 5: done about claims of sexism and sexual assault, and there
Speaker 5: has also been the Bruce Laman claims about Channel seven
Speaker 5: paying for sex workers. So within that context this looks bad.
Speaker 2: Imagine the meeting where they.
Speaker 4: Decided, having worked in the media business, like several media businesses,
Speaker 4: just imagine where they were going. So we're getting everyone together,
Speaker 4: We're going to introduce everybody.
Speaker 2: It's going to be great.
Speaker 4: And then someone's like, you know, we always have the
Speaker 4: Christmas pageant dancers at that and there would have been
Speaker 4: a one woman in that meeting going like, I don't
Speaker 4: think that's a very good idea, and there's right.
Speaker 3: Fun and then the.
Speaker 2: Meeting probably one woman, the woman who is the new editor.
Speaker 5: And the man in the definitely said you can't even
Speaker 5: have women in sexy Sanna outfits dancing in August.
Speaker 6: Having organized those meetings and like, you know, we've got
Speaker 6: our all hands at me coming up tomorrow, and you're
Speaker 6: always like, okay, we've got to do this, and we've
Speaker 6: got to do that. How can we make it a
Speaker 6: bit more fun, How can we do something that's just
Speaker 6: to be fun.
Speaker 3: I know everyone loves Christmas.
Speaker 2: This is one of those meetings that should have been
Speaker 2: an email. They should have just sent.
Speaker 4: Out a phono Santa Me to all the women employees
Speaker 4: and just said new business uniform at seven Media.
Speaker 2: Anyway, because at first I was like, wow, would I
Speaker 2: have walked out? I probably would not have walked out.
Speaker 2: I actually read a lot of quotes from anonymous employees
Speaker 2: who they weren't outraged like they're being presented like they
Speaker 2: were outraged. They weren't outraged. They were just eye rolly,
Speaker 2: and they were saying. One anonymous woman said, it's the
Speaker 2: contrast four men talking about business, then four women come in,
Speaker 2: doled up and scantily clad. What is the role of
Speaker 2: women at this company? That's the right, That's the thing,
Speaker 2: because you know, I understand that you can I roll
Speaker 2: about the outrage here like, oh, calm down, everybody, it's
Speaker 2: a Christmas pageant.
Speaker 4: We always have sexy senters.
Speaker 1: They cheer everybody up.
Speaker 2: The news cycles very rough. We all you know what
Speaker 2: it's just immediately says this is what we think of women.
Speaker 6: I've been in a couple of those situations where it's
Speaker 6: been I've felt so offended is not the right word,
Speaker 6: but I think appalled is probably the right word. The
Speaker 6: one that I think about all the time is about
Speaker 6: eight years ago I was invited to be a keynote
Speaker 6: speaker at another institutional event. It's like a big lunch
Speaker 6: that they have up in Brisbane for like media agencies
Speaker 6: and advertising agencies.
Speaker 1: There would have been about.
Speaker 6: A thousand people there and the MC was like a
Speaker 6: guy from like a I want to say, like a
Speaker 6: radio station. He's quite well known. I can't remember what
Speaker 6: his name he's but everybody in the room knew who
Speaker 6: was and he was, you know, introducing all this because
Speaker 6: and the room was packed. It was probably equally male
Speaker 6: and female professionals. It was lunchtime on a weekday. And
Speaker 6: then he said, Okay, all the women in the room,
Speaker 6: I want it all stand up. And I just got
Speaker 6: that sense that something was up and I didn't stand up,
Speaker 6: but a lot of women did.
Speaker 1: Most women stood up because you.
Speaker 6: Don't want to be you know, you don't want to
Speaker 6: be that person. And then he goes, now, all the blokes,
Speaker 6: I just want you to lean back a bit and
Speaker 6: check out the lovely view of all. And I was
Speaker 6: sitting there, and again there was like a bit of
Speaker 6: a groan, but not like what you would think. This
Speaker 6: is probably just pre me too. I would like to
Speaker 6: think it wouldn't happen today. And I was sitting there,
Speaker 6: and I wanted to get up and walk out, but
Speaker 6: I thought, I'm being paid to be to give a
Speaker 6: keynote speech. If I walk out, I make this whole
Speaker 6: thing about me. It then becomes about me, and it
Speaker 6: also puts the mental load and the reputational load of
Speaker 6: that whole story becoming about me.
Speaker 5: I also can't I sat there. Yeah, I also can't
Speaker 5: make a decision in the moment. I overthink things. So
Speaker 5: I've been in exactly the same situation as in a
Speaker 5: work situation, where I've felt like something sexist has been
Speaker 5: said or an environment is making me uncomfortable, and the
Speaker 5: thought has crossed my mind. If I were a different person, maybe,
Speaker 5: if I were a braver person, I would stand up
Speaker 5: and leave, and I think that would say everything I
Speaker 5: need to say. But instead I have just sat there.
Speaker 5: And it's because I can't make up my mind.
Speaker 3: About what's the most Because.
Speaker 6: If I left, the cost would be on me.
Speaker 2: But also in that instance, when you just told that story,
Speaker 2: my immediate mind goes to, first of all, I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: wonder women are so fucking angry like that one my
Speaker 2: first thought. But my second thought was what's the plausible
Speaker 2: deniability of that guy? And you could go, well, maybe
Speaker 2: he could argue I wanted to make the point that
Speaker 2: we employ all these women, and isn't it lovely to
Speaker 2: see all these women there? Like yeah, you know immediately
Speaker 2: that the defense like if you'd have then stood up
Speaker 2: and made your speech and said, all the blokes stand up,
Speaker 2: and what a lot of dickheads they are in this room. No,
Speaker 2: it's like check out their packages. But if you'd have
Speaker 2: done that, then it would have been what an overreaction?
Speaker 2: Like I just meant, aren't these women great?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: No, he implicitly said.
Speaker 6: It wasn't like, look at all the beautiful women, It
Speaker 6: was look at their ass.
Speaker 5: I reckon that our resistance to walking out is that
Speaker 5: we don't want to be seen as like a buzzkill
Speaker 5: or someone who like, isn't fun. The way that it's
Speaker 5: it's framed, and in my situation too, is that we're
Speaker 5: all just having a bit of fun.
Speaker 6: That wasn't the mood. I mean, it was the mood
Speaker 6: from that guy. There was an understanding that that was shit,
Speaker 6: but it was also like, oh, that's just Jacko exactly,
Speaker 6: let's move on. So I didn't want to pull focus
Speaker 6: because I didn't want to then make it all about me.
Speaker 6: So instead I sat there and seethed and felt like
Speaker 6: I was selling out women, like I was selling out myself.
Speaker 2: And all the women who stood up felt the same
Speaker 2: way too.
Speaker 6: Oh, and they were utterly humiliated. Every woman who stood
Speaker 6: up felt amiliate.
Speaker 5: A lot of friends say, we have a group chat
Speaker 5: and we're talking about what we do in that situation.
Speaker 5: A lot of friends said, I am so delusionally tired
Speaker 5: right now that I can see myself bopping along tapping
Speaker 5: my thin being like.
Speaker 3: Oh, I like this is.
Speaker 2: That's just Jacko. Perfectly encapsulates what women have been trying
Speaker 2: to say with me too, and ever since everything is like,
Speaker 2: we are done with that's just Jacko, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's outrageous. Just to give you a bit of an idea, though,
Speaker 2: this story and the screenshot in particular of the sexy
Speaker 2: Sidner has gone around the world, It's in the papers
Speaker 2: in America, the New York Post, It's all over the place.
Speaker 2: Everybody's like, what is going on in Australia, This is
Speaker 2: a business meeting, blah blah blahlah blah, and you're just great.
Speaker 6: The serious part of this is that you were talking
Speaker 6: about the people in the room when those conversations happen.
Speaker 6: This is why inclusion is so important, because because it
Speaker 6: might be women, it might be people of color, it
Speaker 6: might be people of different sexualities, different religions. If everybody
Speaker 6: in the room has the same lived experience and doesn't
Speaker 6: know what it feels like to feel uncomfortable offended, even
Speaker 6: if the intention was not to offend anyone, and I
Speaker 6: accept that it isn't. That's why you need different people
Speaker 6: in boardrooms, you need different people in newsrooms. You need
Speaker 6: different people in management who can be the decision makers
Speaker 6: who are saying, hey, jacko, you can't do that, or hey,
Speaker 6: let's not get those dances because this is why. And
Speaker 6: the guys around that table would probably go They'll either go, oh,
Speaker 6: come on, you can't even just ogle sexy sounds anymore.
Speaker 2: Or they'll be like, oh shit, I hadn't thought about it,
Speaker 2: but you. Also, it's not really enough to just have
Speaker 2: the person at the table. The culture has to be
Speaker 2: that you'll listen, because it's not really fair to put
Speaker 2: one woman in the room and say you tell us
Speaker 2: if you think things are problematic to a culture that's
Speaker 2: all just going to dismiss you. Like it has to
Speaker 2: be an open minded listening thing.
Speaker 1: It does, you know?
Speaker 2: I wanted to say about meetings. Elon Musk has a
Speaker 2: famous quote that he's given his He gives his staff
Speaker 2: permission to walk out of any meeting as soon as
Speaker 2: they realize they can no longer add value. And I
Speaker 2: just feel like if all the women.
Speaker 4: Had been able to stand up at that minute and
Speaker 4: walk down, it would have been perfect because you'd be like, clearly,
Speaker 4: we are not adding value to this room.
Speaker 3: I put on a sound to hat out louders.
Speaker 5: So many of you have had a lot to say
Speaker 5: about trigger warnings in the mummey out Louder's Facebook group,
Speaker 5: and our conversation hasn't stopped. It continue in the group chat,
Speaker 5: and there was new evidence that needed to be submitted.
Speaker 5: So what we did is we recorded yesterday's subscriber episode
Speaker 5: all about trigger warnings. Here is a sneak peak from
Speaker 5: that episode.
Speaker 6: Why are we treating adults like children. As adults, we
Speaker 6: are responsible to protect oursel.
Speaker 5: We have the same emotional capacity every single one of us,
Speaker 5: regardless of what we've experted. To listen, follow the link
Speaker 5: in our show notes and jump in the Facebook group
Speaker 5: and join chat.
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you out louders
Speaker 2: for listening to us today and always, and of course
Speaker 2: to our fabulous team for putting it together. We're going
Speaker 2: to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye.
Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
Speaker 2: to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description.