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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about.

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Speaker 2: On Wednesday, the twenty eighth of August. I'm Holly Wainwright,

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Speaker 2: I'm mea Friedman.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stephens.

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Speaker 2: An on today's show, two very famous women have closed

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Speaker 2: their clothing businesses this week? Are we seeing the end

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Speaker 2: of the celebrity side hustle? And there are tears in

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Speaker 2: the Mommamea office about the divorce of a celebrity that

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Speaker 2: I've literally never heard of. Jesse is bringing us all

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Speaker 2: the gossip about the benefit scale split of someone called

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Speaker 2: Molly May. I had to check.

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Speaker 4: Ons also, are dancing sexy centers enough to make you

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Speaker 4: walk out of a work meeting.

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Speaker 2: Some media business employees just found their limit. But first,

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Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 5: Women's voices and faces are forbidden to be heard or

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Speaker 5: shown outside the home in Afghanistan, following new virtue laws

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Speaker 5: introduced by the Taliban three years ago. The militant group

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Speaker 5: retook control of the country and as one woman from

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Speaker 5: Kabul said, day by day they are trying to erase

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Speaker 5: women from society.

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Speaker 6: This news honestly took my breath away. It's unimaginable.

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Speaker 5: And the penalties for if you were to show your

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Speaker 5: face or you were to use your voice, and this

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Speaker 5: includes if you are inside your home and you are

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Speaker 5: talking or you are singing and it can be heard

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Speaker 5: outside your home, there are penalties for that. This is

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Speaker 5: from the Justice Ministry. The penalties include advice, warnings of

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Speaker 5: divine punishment, verbal threats, confiscation of property, detention for one

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Speaker 5: hour to three days in public jails, and any other

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Speaker 5: punishment deemed appropriate.

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Speaker 1: That is so sinister.

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Speaker 6: I remember when the Taliban took back control of Afghanistan

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Speaker 6: and the world was like, oh no, and they were

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Speaker 6: like no, guys, don't worry. Were actually fine, like women

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Speaker 6: are going to be fine. And then over the last

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Speaker 6: few years since that happened, they've systematically raised women from

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Speaker 6: public life, preventing women from going to university, preventing them

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Speaker 6: from going to school, preventing them from leaving their house unaccompanied.

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Speaker 6: Now face voice. Also, you're not allowed to have photographs of.

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Speaker 5: A living thing, of a living person, So if you

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Speaker 5: know we think about our homes, or if you've got

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Speaker 5: a loved one or a child or a mother or

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Speaker 5: anything that's just maybe on the other side of the

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Speaker 5: country or living overseas, then that's punishable to have a

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Speaker 5: photograph in your home.

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Speaker 2: I just find this so moving. Over the past three years,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that's happened is that female journalists

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Speaker 2: in Afghanistan have slowly had to adjust and Titan and

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Speaker 2: adjustin Titan. So when the Taliban took over, there were

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Speaker 2: quite a few female news anchors journalists on Afghan television

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Speaker 2: and they had to tighten their hit ups so that

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Speaker 2: absolutely no hair was visible. Then the laws changed again

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Speaker 2: and they had to wear face masks while they were

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Speaker 2: delivering the news, and some of the media organizations have

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Speaker 2: insisted on keeping like they really want to keep these

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Speaker 2: women on screen, so they've been doing this. Okay, a

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Speaker 2: mask is fine now because their voices aren't allowed to

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Speaker 2: be heard. Live feeds of press conferences where women are

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Speaker 2: asking questions get cut in the middle of broadcast because

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Speaker 2: their voices are allowed to be heard, so it's literally

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Speaker 2: pushing them off. The bravery of those women and also

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Speaker 2: the men who are working around them, who are trying

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Speaker 2: to protect them and keep them on screens is just

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Speaker 2: I just salute them. It's just so sad.

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Speaker 5: And what you're saying about media the photographs is really

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Speaker 5: important too, because if you're trying to report from inside

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Speaker 5: Afghanistan about what's happening and about the lives of women,

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Speaker 5: you can't if you can't publish a photograph, which is

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Speaker 5: another way in which what's happening inside Afghanistan is being

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Speaker 5: rendered invisible.

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Speaker 6: We have more information about this devastating story on Muma Maya.

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Speaker 1: There's a link in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: Until this week. If you're in New York City and

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Speaker 2: you wanted to spot Sarah Jessica park in the wild,

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Speaker 2: your best bet was to head to a shoe shop

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Speaker 2: on the corner of Bleeker and Perry Street, just around

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Speaker 2: the corner from where Carrie Bradshaw's very famous apartment is.

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Speaker 3: Really because I've been to that apartment two times.

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Speaker 2: There you go. She used to literally work in the

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Speaker 2: SJP by Sarah Jessica Parker shop some days, saying that

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Speaker 2: staying close to her customer, watching them hold and feel

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Speaker 2: and try on her shoes, was the key to keeping

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Speaker 2: the designs relevant to the women who wanted a little

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Speaker 2: bit of carry magic on their feet. They had shoes

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Speaker 2: like bridleheels that had Hello Lover stamped on their toes

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Speaker 2: and things like that. But no more, because this week

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Speaker 2: SJP quietly announced a fashion press that after nine years,

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Speaker 2: the shoe brand was closing, and there's currently an everything

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Speaker 2: must Go sale on their website to shift the last

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Speaker 2: of the stock. Another high profile woman much closer to home,

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Speaker 2: is also shuddering her business this week. Constance Hall is

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Speaker 2: a name I'm sure you're all very familiar with. This week,

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Speaker 2: she announced on Facebook and Instagram, where she has million

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Speaker 2: of followers, that Queen the Label, her online clothing business

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Speaker 2: that specialized in floaty boho fashion and always donated a

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Speaker 2: portion of the profit to charity, was closing down. The

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Speaker 2: conflict she was feeling about this was evident in the

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Speaker 2: announcement she posted with trademark honesty. She said, I have

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Speaker 2: dreaded telling you guys this because I've tried everything to

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Speaker 2: avoid it, and I'm still losing my breath with anxious

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Speaker 2: butterflies swirling in my stomach every second. I have put

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Speaker 2: Queen the Label into voluntary administration after a week long

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Speaker 2: panic attack with confusion over bookwork that I simply do

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Speaker 2: not understand. I was told that nobody should have to

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Speaker 2: live with the stress that this company puts on me

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Speaker 2: in my life, and they were right. I've been stressed

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Speaker 2: out for seven years, seven years of not giving my

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Speaker 2: kids the time they deserve, seven years of not enjoying

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Speaker 2: my life while the impending doom of not having made

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Speaker 2: enough money hung over me. And it stops now now.

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Speaker 2: To be clear, these women have a lot of other

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Speaker 2: things going on right. Hall is a content creator. She

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Speaker 2: still has another business called The Lover's Heart Club where

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Speaker 2: she set like Art and Home was SJP of course

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Speaker 2: different scale altogether, still has a wine label a fragrance,

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Speaker 2: and of course she's an actress who's filming season three

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Speaker 2: of them just like that at the moment. But mea

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Speaker 2: as our out loud business correspondent, is this just the

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Speaker 2: economy and these are high profile examples of something that's

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Speaker 2: happening everywhere on very different scales, or is it symptomatic

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Speaker 2: of the end of the celebrity side hustle.

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Speaker 6: I think it's a little bit of both. I mean,

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Speaker 6: the economy is incredibly hard, retail is incredibly hard, and

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Speaker 6: the apparel is among the hardest. I mean, all you

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Speaker 6: have to do is search for genes or pretty much anything,

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Speaker 6: any item of clothing, shoes, or accessories, and you'll probably

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Speaker 6: be served a bunch of ads from like Temu, where

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Speaker 6: you can buy them for like six dollars.

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Speaker 1: The little guys.

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Speaker 6: Are finding it increasingly tough because when you're an enormous

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Speaker 6: company who manufactures off sor you can do it quite cheaply,

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Speaker 6: and you can sell it quite cheaply for a decent markup.

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Speaker 5: The way I understand it is that the bottom line

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Speaker 5: of the big businesses is getting bigger and bigger, whereas

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Speaker 5: the small businesses are crumbling as a result. So even

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Speaker 5: you know, yeah, there's the example of the big like

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Speaker 5: next day delivery all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 6: And so if Zara or Tema Orchine making a T shirt,

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Speaker 6: they'll put in an order for a million units, maybe

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Speaker 6: two million units. If Constance Hall is making a T shirt,

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Speaker 6: she'll put in an order for five hundred units. So

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Speaker 6: you can imagine the cost of two million units is

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Speaker 6: maybe forty cents a unit, and the cost of ordering

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Speaker 6: five hundred is probably four dollars or ten dollars a unit.

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Speaker 6: So it's really tough. And I think what's been interesting

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Speaker 6: about the Internet and social media in particularly, it's allowed

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Speaker 6: women to not just sell other people's products because women

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Speaker 6: have always done that, famous women, but to go direct

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Speaker 6: to consumer and sell their own.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not all doom and gloom.

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Speaker 6: I mean you just have to look at business women

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Speaker 6: in Australia like Zoe Foster Blake, who has built a

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Speaker 6: company worth hundreds of millions of dollars which she then

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Speaker 6: sold and then brought back again at a fraction of

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Speaker 6: the price. So it's not that it is impossible. And

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Speaker 6: we've seen Celeste Barbara just start her beauty line, so

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Speaker 6: there's lots of women who are still doing it, famous

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Speaker 6: women who are still doing it. But it is really

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Speaker 6: hard to compete.

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Speaker 5: Because there's someone who I'm not a business person. I

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Speaker 5: don't claim to understand the ins and outs, and in fact,

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Speaker 5: I take such pride in knowing I will never have

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Speaker 5: a product. It's sort of like knowing I'll never run

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Speaker 5: a marathon. It's like a very relieving.

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Speaker 6: But I thought I'd never work for myself. I never

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Speaker 6: thought I would be self employed.

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Speaker 3: I just think never. It looks like the hardest thing

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Speaker 3: in the world, but it is.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's the hardest thing in the world, but

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Speaker 6: it's hard.

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Speaker 5: Part of the marketing of having a brand is to

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Speaker 5: promote almost like a scarcity mindset and to go, it's

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Speaker 5: flying off the shelves, get it now, we're having a

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Speaker 5: last sale. Like part of marketing is to project this

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Speaker 5: image that your business is thriving, which I imagine compounds the

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Speaker 5: pain of most business owners who feel as though they're

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Speaker 5: not thriving.

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Speaker 6: Constance always did that really, really well, which is why

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Speaker 6: it was a big surprise even to me to read

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Speaker 6: that it was closing, because she's an outstanding marketer, and

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Speaker 6: she said in that post, so much of the investment

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Speaker 6: of building this label was from the proceeds of her book,

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Speaker 6: because she again didn't go with a publisher, took a

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Speaker 6: risk ten years ago and self published a memoir and

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Speaker 6: made a fortune, a fortune like several million.

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Speaker 1: Dollars on precedent and unprecedented.

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Speaker 6: It was like change the game in publishing, and no

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Speaker 6: one's been able to replicate that, including her. But no

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Speaker 6: one's been able to replicate that, even other big name

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Speaker 6: authors or go with big companies. So being really good

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Speaker 6: at marketing is different to being really good at business,

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Speaker 6: and if you don't have the right partners. I know

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Speaker 6: a lot of things, but if I hadn't been a

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Speaker 6: co founder of Muma Mia with my husband Jason, who

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Speaker 6: was CEO, there's no way I could have done this.

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Speaker 6: There's no way or could continue to do this. I

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Speaker 6: want to ask if there's a vibe shift, right. I mean,

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Speaker 6: there are obviously very specific reasons for these people that

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Speaker 6: we're talking about now for their businesses to work or

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Speaker 6: not work, or whether or not they've just run their course.

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Speaker 6: Whether you know sjp's Shoes was always going to have

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Speaker 6: a ceiling.

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Speaker 2: Really the other.

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Speaker 6: Thing whole is social media and the algorithm, because it

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Speaker 6: used to be SJP and Constance have millions of followers, right,

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Speaker 6: and if you can go direct to them on social

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Speaker 6: media and sell something, you don't need to spend money

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Speaker 6: on advertising. You don't need to, you know, take out

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Speaker 6: ads on TV or in Mama Mia. You can go direct.

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Speaker 6: But as soon as you're reliant on someone else and

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Speaker 6: an algorithm to deliver your customers to you so that

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Speaker 6: they see what you're putting out there, it's not a

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Speaker 6: reliable business model.

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Speaker 2: When I say I wonder if there's been a vibe shift.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if it's the means of operation have changed, because,

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Speaker 2: as you say, social media has changed, but also there

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Speaker 2: was a moment, and I think we're still in this moment.

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Speaker 2: To be fair, that anyone with a big following or

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Speaker 2: a big fame is very much encouraged now to own

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Speaker 2: things like business. Didn't used to be cool twenty years

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Speaker 2: ago if you were an artist or a creative, saying

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Speaker 2: that you had a business mind or that you were

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Speaker 2: interested in bottom lines and spreadsheets was very uncool, right,

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Speaker 2: But we live in a time now where billionaires are

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Speaker 2: pinups and every celebrity has a liquor brand, a skincare line.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of cool to know a lot about business.

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Speaker 2: But I wonder if there's a shift because we've realized

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Speaker 2: the reality of just because you do have lots of followers,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't guarantee success. And as what Constance expressed there,

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Speaker 2: as I understand it because obviously when you were very

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Speaker 2: involved in Ladies startup and we were always listening to

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Speaker 2: female founders, it is incredibly stressful. When she was explaining

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Speaker 2: that about staying awake at night, stressing about employees, bottom lines, payments,

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Speaker 2: Do I have enough money? That's very common, right, That's

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Speaker 2: that's what business women.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Is it just not bloody worth it for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people.

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Speaker 6: I think there's a lot of different reasons why people

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Speaker 6: start businesses, you know, and it's not always just about money.

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Speaker 6: I mean, obviously everyone has to make their own decisions

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Speaker 6: about what they're willing to put up with, you know,

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Speaker 6: and what's the return on investment in their life that

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Speaker 6: makes it worth it to continue or not. But a

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Speaker 6: lot of women, particularly women with side hustles, women with

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Speaker 6: small businesses, start them for reasons around identity, around boredom,

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Speaker 6: around wanting something to do that's not just being at

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Speaker 6: home with kids, or being at home being a care

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Speaker 6: for someone, or being at home being unwell.

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Speaker 2: Or more flexible work.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. I remember one woman I interviewed who had had

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Speaker 6: a terrible car accident and became a wheelchair user, and

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Speaker 6: she started a business like knitting. She lived on farm,

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Speaker 6: bulls blankets and scars and stuff, and that was never

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Speaker 6: going to set the world on fire. But that's not

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Speaker 6: why she started it. It made enough to pay for itself,

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Speaker 6: and she says that it saved her because it gave

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Speaker 6: her purpose and I used to those stories all the

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Speaker 6: time from we Yes.

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Speaker 5: But then there's this other thing going on, right, which

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Speaker 5: is that if you have a following, and we've talked

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Speaker 5: about this, you don't necessarily make money from having two

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Speaker 5: hundred thousand followers on Instagram, right, No, you don't. It's

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Speaker 5: about monetizing a following. So I heard this said recently.

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Speaker 5: You'll remember the other week we're talking about the person

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Speaker 5: who coined the word demure, and she was talking about it,

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Speaker 5: and suddenly her words are the most famous words in

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Speaker 5: the world. I think it's like she must be so rich, yes,

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Speaker 5: and I think she made a little bit of money

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Speaker 5: just from views or something. But I heard people say

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Speaker 5: she needs a product, she needs a product right now

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Speaker 5: so that she can sell it, so that she can

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Speaker 5: capitalize on it. I don't think that there is a

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Speaker 5: clear recipe necessarily for making sure that's a product people

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Speaker 5: actually want to buy, or making sure that she would

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Speaker 5: be around the right people to create and also monetize instantly.

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Speaker 5: It doesn't happen instantly. And the nature of fame and

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Speaker 5: virality now is that the person who was famous story

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Speaker 5: weeks ago is invisible today. But I'm not sure that

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Speaker 5: a vibe shift is totally what's happening. I was listening

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Speaker 5: to an interview with one of the guys from The

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Speaker 5: Inspired Unemployed this week, Jack Steele. They made better beer.

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Speaker 5: That is the fastest growing beer in Australian history. And

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Speaker 5: I would say, just looking at those two guys, because

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Speaker 5: they were making TikTok videos and they've got into lots

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Speaker 5: of different projects from the outside, I go, whoever you're

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Speaker 5: working with is giving you fantastic advice.

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Speaker 3: Like, clearly the beer was a great thing.

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Speaker 1: It was a good match.

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Speaker 3: It was a really good match.

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Speaker 5: They knew who their audience was, so there's still clearly potential.

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Speaker 6: Back to the woman who had the very demure moment,

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Speaker 6: Jules Lebron, she had two choices very quickly. One is

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Speaker 6: to make her own products, which you can't do instantly. Well,

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Speaker 6: you can with like a drop shit model, like you

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Speaker 6: can get t shirts sort of printed in China or

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Speaker 6: something and quickly get them shipped.

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Speaker 1: You could do that.

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Speaker 6: The other is to quickly take all the brand deals

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Speaker 6: so everybody would be coming to her and its influencer work.

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Speaker 6: So it's saying, okay, I've probably got two months to

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Speaker 6: make good coin, I need to fish weather, fish are

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Speaker 6: and do that as opposed to the longer lead and

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Speaker 6: sell us.

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Speaker 1: Barber's a great example of that.

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Speaker 6: I mean, she's been famous for a really long time now,

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Speaker 6: but she was the face of ModelCo and someone else's makeup,

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Speaker 6: and she obviously decided, well, hang on, I know that

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Speaker 6: I can move make up for them. Why aren't I

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Speaker 6: doing this for myself? And so that's what she's doing

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Speaker 6: now with a business partner. But it's very different because

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Speaker 6: when you work for someone else, they have the infrastructure.

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Speaker 6: When you work for yourself, suddenly you've got to be

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Speaker 6: out there selling all the time, and not everybody's comfortable

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Speaker 6: with doing that. Like, one thing you can say about

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Speaker 6: Constance is that she knows how to sell things, and

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Speaker 6: she was out there constantly working it, and yet that

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Speaker 6: still wasn't enough.

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Speaker 2: The most successful celebrity brands you can think of eventually

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Speaker 2: transcend the celebrity. Right, So sample of the better beer

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Speaker 2: that might be going really well right now, but in

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Speaker 2: ten years, when the inspired unemployed have been I mean

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Speaker 2: they'll be fine. I don't mean I'm worried about them,

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Speaker 2: but like there'll be a new inspired on employed there'll

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Speaker 2: be a new cool young guys who all the young

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Speaker 2: people want to emulate better. Beer will only remain successful

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Speaker 2: if it's bloody great and it's like solidified itself separate

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Speaker 2: to them. It's kind of like fenty beauty or you

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Speaker 2: know there are celebrity brands you can think of that. Yes,

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Speaker 2: the celebrity helped get that out there, but now it's

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Speaker 2: every time I think of fenty beauty and I see it,

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Speaker 2: I don't immediately go Rhianna. I mean, I know this

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Speaker 2: is a different scale.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I know, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: It's like the thing with Sjp's shoes, for example. And

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Speaker 2: I'm not a business expert, but this is my vibe

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Speaker 2: is there was always going to be a ceiling on

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Speaker 2: how long people were obsessed with one and carry Bradshaw's heels,

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Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 6: Everyone went to her with opportunities to either endorse or

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Speaker 6: do a collab with a big brand, a big existing

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Speaker 6: shoe brand, including like a Minola blank and then cheaper ones,

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Speaker 6: but the price point for celebrity like Jessica Simpson, for example,

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Speaker 6: who doesn't release music anymore, but she's a billionaire because

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Speaker 6: she sells like dresses and shoes and sheets, and she's

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Speaker 6: an entire lifestyle brand, and so she could have gone

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Speaker 6: that way, but she wanted to go do her own thing,

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Speaker 6: and she wanted it to be a certain quality. So

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Speaker 6: the price point of these shoes were like five hundred dollars,

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Speaker 6: and anyone that's got five hundred dollars to spend on

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Speaker 6: shoes SJP is not She's a person who's known for

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Speaker 6: having great shoes, but it's not like a Manolo Blanik

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Speaker 6: or a Christian Liverton or.

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Speaker 1: A Gucci or whatever.

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Speaker 6: So I think there was that disconnect because people want

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Speaker 6: to be adjacent to famous people. But that's why celebrities

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Speaker 6: have fragrances, because you can buy a little bit of

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Speaker 6: SJP for thirty bucks at Chemist Warehouse, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, Lazy Girls.

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Speaker 5: I do not know a single lazy girl who actually

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Speaker 5: knows how to blow dry her own hair.

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Speaker 3: It can't be done.

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Speaker 5: yet to be convinced, let me tell you that last

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Speaker 5: week a lazy girl did just one job in a

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Speaker 5: whole week, and it was that she became a subscriber.

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Speaker 5: And guess what happened to her. She won a trip

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Speaker 5: for two to Turkey, so it was worth it. The

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Speaker 5: prize draw is on the tenth of September. Teas and

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Speaker 5: Season Life.

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Speaker 7: I've been thinking about this all day ever since the

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Speaker 7: Molly and Tommy breakup was announced and I just don't

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Speaker 7: think that people understand the severity of how this is

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Speaker 7: going to impact society. Think about it. Molly May has

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Speaker 7: created a generation of girlies who like a slip back bone,

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Speaker 7: a free at five hundred. They've got a new lip

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Speaker 7: on and the most flawless, faked hand that you will

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Speaker 7: ever see in your life. Every single one of them

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Speaker 7: right now is sitting there thinking if it could happen

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Speaker 7: to them, it could happen to me.

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Speaker 5: When news reached the Mum Mayor office last week that

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Speaker 5: a woman named Molly May Haig and a man named

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Speaker 5: Tommy Fury was separating, there were literal tears.

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Speaker 3: There were tears. Holly, don't understand.

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Speaker 2: The words coming out of her mouth? Do you understand them?

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Speaker 5: The statement this is our Princess Diana and Prince Charles

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00:20:06,727 --> 00:20:12,247
Speaker 5: moment was atted. Team felt blindsided and emotionally unequipped to

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Speaker 5: deal with the news that on August fourteen, and otherwise

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Speaker 5: normal quiet Wednesday, Molly May and Tommy were over.

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Speaker 3: See these people?

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Speaker 5: Before I go any further, Holly and Maa, do you

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Speaker 5: have any questions regarding what.

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Speaker 2: I just heard? All of the questions because I've seen

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Speaker 2: this story around obviously, I work My May, and I've

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Speaker 2: seen it on site. I haven't clicked on it because

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know who they are. So I

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Speaker 2: looked at the picture. I was like, surely I'll just

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Speaker 2: recognize their faces. No.

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Speaker 5: Still, no, their English, Holly. I think that they might

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Speaker 5: be friends with your parents because they live in Greater Manchester.

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Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, so your parents. I bet they're talking

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Speaker 5: about it all over this. Oh your mom's going to

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Speaker 5: go Did you know Molly May and Toyo?

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Speaker 2: That sounds embarrassing though I don't know what's happening yet.

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Speaker 5: Okay, So Molly May Haig was on season five of

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Speaker 5: Love Island obviously right, and she also had like a

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Speaker 5: YouTube channel and everyone loves her just for she.

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Speaker 2: An influencer who went on Love Island. Or was she

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Speaker 2: went on Love Island and became an influence.

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Speaker 6: She reminded me her Love works. I'm going back to base.

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Speaker 5: She was an influencer who went on Love Island. It

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Speaker 5: is an island full of love where there are just

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Speaker 5: a bunch of people who like have mad sex together.

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Speaker 5: And her and Tommy were runner UNPD.

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Speaker 1: Is that the whole plot?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? And they're hot and they walk around in bikinis.

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Speaker 6: Run around bad So who wins the person who has

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Speaker 6: the sex the most and doesn't get a UTR?

439
00:21:29,407 --> 00:21:32,047
Speaker 5: No, no, no, the couple that's the most couple. They were

440
00:21:32,047 --> 00:21:34,367
Speaker 5: the second most couple, the second most people. And so

441
00:21:34,487 --> 00:21:36,767
Speaker 5: this was twenty nineteen. So this was five years ago,

442
00:21:36,807 --> 00:21:39,607
Speaker 5: which is fifty years ago in reality. Okay, time, Yeah,

443
00:21:39,647 --> 00:21:43,247
Speaker 5: you're right they're part of the establishment. Yeah, they're brad Nanch.

444
00:21:43,567 --> 00:21:46,247
Speaker 5: Since then they've got married. They have a daughter. Her

445
00:21:46,287 --> 00:21:48,167
Speaker 5: name is Bambi. She's about one and a half.

446
00:21:48,287 --> 00:21:52,287
Speaker 2: No, all right, I quite like.

447
00:21:55,447 --> 00:21:57,447
Speaker 3: Now you two are thinking, why should I care?

448
00:21:57,727 --> 00:21:58,487
Speaker 1: A lot of nouns.

449
00:21:58,527 --> 00:22:00,487
Speaker 6: There's a lot of proper nouns, none of which I

450
00:22:00,527 --> 00:22:01,087
Speaker 6: can recall.

451
00:22:01,327 --> 00:22:03,207
Speaker 5: Friends, if we were sitting at dinner and I said

452
00:22:03,207 --> 00:22:05,287
Speaker 5: to you, friends of mine just broke up and there's

453
00:22:05,287 --> 00:22:07,807
Speaker 5: something fishy going on, would you or would you not?

454
00:22:07,887 --> 00:22:10,767
Speaker 3: Lean in? Of course you'd lean in. Okay, Well that's

455
00:22:10,807 --> 00:22:11,367
Speaker 3: what we're gonna do.

456
00:22:12,007 --> 00:22:14,567
Speaker 2: First of all, I'd express disapproval because it's my brand.

457
00:22:14,567 --> 00:22:16,727
Speaker 2: I'd be like, are we really gossiping about this? Jesse?

458
00:22:16,847 --> 00:22:19,367
Speaker 2: And then I would put down my wife class and

459
00:22:19,407 --> 00:22:20,607
Speaker 2: I'd go, tell.

460
00:22:20,407 --> 00:22:21,687
Speaker 1: Me, so, what have they done.

461
00:22:21,807 --> 00:22:23,767
Speaker 6: Do they have jobs like or they just famous people?

462
00:22:23,847 --> 00:22:26,687
Speaker 5: Okay, Tommy Fury in a weird way is related to

463
00:22:26,727 --> 00:22:28,487
Speaker 5: a very famous boxer or something.

464
00:22:28,647 --> 00:22:31,327
Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah, Tyson Fury. Yes, it's really famous.

465
00:22:31,527 --> 00:22:32,167
Speaker 1: I know that is.

466
00:22:32,287 --> 00:22:32,527
Speaker 3: Yeah.

467
00:22:32,527 --> 00:22:34,407
Speaker 5: Okay, so that's and then there was like a Netflix

468
00:22:34,447 --> 00:22:36,487
Speaker 5: show about blah blah blast the British people.

469
00:22:36,487 --> 00:22:37,087
Speaker 3: Are we so?

470
00:22:37,367 --> 00:22:41,527
Speaker 5: Holly's family friend Molly May post an Instagram story to

471
00:22:41,567 --> 00:22:45,087
Speaker 5: her eight point two million followers eight eight point two Okay.

472
00:22:45,967 --> 00:22:48,727
Speaker 5: It says, never in a million years did I think

473
00:22:48,767 --> 00:22:51,407
Speaker 5: I'd have to write this after five years of being together.

474
00:22:51,567 --> 00:22:55,207
Speaker 5: I never imagined our story would end, especially not this way.

475
00:22:55,447 --> 00:22:56,607
Speaker 3: What does that tell you? What's if?

476
00:22:56,887 --> 00:22:58,647
Speaker 2: But also can I just put my hand up?

477
00:22:58,727 --> 00:22:59,967
Speaker 1: So dirty, dirty cheetah?

478
00:23:00,047 --> 00:23:02,967
Speaker 2: I love it, of course, But also did anyone really

479
00:23:03,007 --> 00:23:05,087
Speaker 2: think she was never going to have to write that?

480
00:23:05,127 --> 00:23:07,567
Speaker 2: They met on a reality show five years ago, quickly

481
00:23:07,607 --> 00:23:08,527
Speaker 2: got married and had a baby.

482
00:23:09,287 --> 00:23:10,927
Speaker 1: Don't think you understand her love work?

483
00:23:11,007 --> 00:23:12,807
Speaker 2: Didn't we all think she was going to come to

484
00:23:12,847 --> 00:23:14,127
Speaker 2: a day when she was going to write this?

485
00:23:14,247 --> 00:23:17,087
Speaker 5: They were Charles and Diana, right, they were, I've been

486
00:23:17,087 --> 00:23:19,247
Speaker 5: together four five years?

487
00:23:19,287 --> 00:23:19,767
Speaker 3: What about that?

488
00:23:19,807 --> 00:23:23,207
Speaker 5: Are you're not understanding five years pre covid. Oh my god,

489
00:23:23,527 --> 00:23:26,367
Speaker 5: now everyone's yelling Molly, tell us what happened.

490
00:23:26,647 --> 00:23:26,927
Speaker 1: Well.

491
00:23:27,087 --> 00:23:29,127
Speaker 5: She then went on, she said our priority was her daughter.

492
00:23:29,207 --> 00:23:32,527
Speaker 5: That's all lovely, and then she said that she will

493
00:23:32,567 --> 00:23:34,287
Speaker 5: return to social media when it feels right.

494
00:23:34,927 --> 00:23:37,487
Speaker 3: That was today she.

495
00:23:35,887 --> 00:23:40,287
Speaker 5: Did, and how many an hour later and she said,

496
00:23:40,327 --> 00:23:42,727
Speaker 5: thank you for your support. Have you too been supporting?

497
00:23:43,127 --> 00:23:49,327
Speaker 5: Apparently we've been very supportive. All right, do we want

498
00:23:49,367 --> 00:23:51,527
Speaker 5: to know what happened? Do we want to know what happened?

499
00:23:52,167 --> 00:23:52,527
Speaker 4: All right?

500
00:23:52,567 --> 00:23:55,807
Speaker 3: Well, the Sun knows what happened, so sit tight the Sun.

501
00:23:55,927 --> 00:23:57,927
Speaker 6: Oh sorry, I thought you meant her son. I was confused.

502
00:23:59,927 --> 00:24:04,447
Speaker 5: Guess the Sun is a tabloid newspaper and only ever

503
00:24:04,487 --> 00:24:07,767
Speaker 5: tells the truth. Tommy, he was on holiday in North

504
00:24:07,807 --> 00:24:12,487
Speaker 5: Macedonia and he was seen kissing a blonde woman in

505
00:24:12,487 --> 00:24:15,407
Speaker 5: front of hundreds of people in a nightclub. Tommy just

506
00:24:15,567 --> 00:24:19,367
Speaker 5: days before Mollie may announce very smart as he's not

507
00:24:19,487 --> 00:24:22,487
Speaker 5: very smart. A nightclub girl was interviewed and said that

508
00:24:22,527 --> 00:24:24,967
Speaker 5: Tommy didn't even seem to care that he was kissing

509
00:24:25,007 --> 00:24:27,967
Speaker 5: a girl in front of everyone. And Tommy's security guard

510
00:24:28,207 --> 00:24:30,527
Speaker 5: went up to people and was deleting pictures and videos

511
00:24:30,567 --> 00:24:32,847
Speaker 5: off their phone, going you can't film Tommy cheating on

512
00:24:32,887 --> 00:24:34,007
Speaker 5: his wife.

513
00:24:35,207 --> 00:24:39,047
Speaker 4: It seems like an imperfect pr strategy for everybody. Give

514
00:24:39,047 --> 00:24:42,447
Speaker 4: me your phone. I need your phone. You over there,

515
00:24:42,687 --> 00:24:45,967
Speaker 4: give me your phone, and it's just one security guard

516
00:24:46,047 --> 00:24:46,967
Speaker 4: trying to do all the work.

517
00:24:47,727 --> 00:24:50,167
Speaker 5: Allegedly, he was then seen speaking to the same girl

518
00:24:50,207 --> 00:24:51,207
Speaker 5: the following evening.

519
00:24:51,567 --> 00:24:53,847
Speaker 3: You are the sun. What are you try and do next?

520
00:24:54,047 --> 00:24:55,567
Speaker 2: Come on, hollod, We've trying to find the girl.

521
00:24:55,967 --> 00:24:59,447
Speaker 3: We've found the girl, haven't we. We found her. She's Danish.

522
00:24:59,647 --> 00:25:01,207
Speaker 2: She probably wasn't very hard to find.

523
00:25:01,327 --> 00:25:03,407
Speaker 3: She wasn't. She just posted on her stories.

524
00:25:03,527 --> 00:25:05,687
Speaker 5: She said, I've had to delete all my posts due

525
00:25:05,727 --> 00:25:07,007
Speaker 5: to the hate and nasty comments.

526
00:25:07,047 --> 00:25:08,727
Speaker 6: She's also taking a break from social media.

527
00:25:09,687 --> 00:25:12,047
Speaker 5: She had to delete her things. As stated in the

528
00:25:12,087 --> 00:25:14,927
Speaker 5: news story, I gave. I didn't do anything with Tommy Fury.

529
00:25:15,007 --> 00:25:17,847
Speaker 5: I didn't even know who he was. We only shared

530
00:25:17,847 --> 00:25:20,927
Speaker 5: a kiss. Nothing else happened. I wouldn't kissed himfu you

531
00:25:21,127 --> 00:25:24,407
Speaker 5: is with Molly May Now back to the timeline, right,

532
00:25:24,407 --> 00:25:26,487
Speaker 5: because he goes and cheats with this Danish This is

533
00:25:26,527 --> 00:25:29,927
Speaker 5: all allegedly h but he's gone over there he's kissed her.

534
00:25:30,407 --> 00:25:33,007
Speaker 5: Then he gets on a flight home to Manchester, right,

535
00:25:33,647 --> 00:25:38,327
Speaker 5: and the flight's delayed. Always important, this important information. And

536
00:25:38,367 --> 00:25:42,167
Speaker 5: it lands at two forty five pm. Right by three

537
00:25:42,167 --> 00:25:46,127
Speaker 5: point fifty two pm, Molly May has announced their split

538
00:25:46,207 --> 00:25:49,527
Speaker 5: to her Instagram followers. This suggests to me a video

539
00:25:49,807 --> 00:25:53,287
Speaker 5: photo was sent to Molly May that quickly ended their

540
00:25:53,287 --> 00:25:56,327
Speaker 5: relationship in what's that? Just over an hour? Just over

541
00:25:56,367 --> 00:25:57,727
Speaker 5: an hour since he landed.

542
00:25:58,087 --> 00:26:00,407
Speaker 2: It depends how far from the airport they.

543
00:26:00,407 --> 00:26:01,847
Speaker 3: Leave, Yes, exactly right.

544
00:26:01,927 --> 00:26:05,727
Speaker 6: Would you end a relationship and post about it in

545
00:26:05,767 --> 00:26:08,367
Speaker 6: an hour after receiving a photo?

546
00:26:08,647 --> 00:26:09,207
Speaker 3: It's a great way.

547
00:26:10,967 --> 00:26:14,327
Speaker 5: No, okay, But I don't live in Molly May's world.

548
00:26:14,447 --> 00:26:17,807
Speaker 5: I would if this was a pattern of behavior. Yeah, right,

549
00:26:17,847 --> 00:26:21,567
Speaker 5: for sure, because I've seen Tommy. I've seen his face,

550
00:26:21,767 --> 00:26:22,967
Speaker 5: and I just have a vibe.

551
00:26:23,047 --> 00:26:26,527
Speaker 2: This is what I mean about everybody pretending they're surprised, Like,

552
00:26:27,087 --> 00:26:30,887
Speaker 2: why would we be surprised? Do we really think that

553
00:26:30,967 --> 00:26:34,887
Speaker 2: Tommy and Molly, two very good looking humans who found

554
00:26:34,927 --> 00:26:38,647
Speaker 2: love on reality TV, were going to be monogamously together

555
00:26:38,727 --> 00:26:40,567
Speaker 2: forever and ever and ever till they die?

556
00:26:40,687 --> 00:26:43,247
Speaker 5: It's Laura Burne and Maddie Jay announced that they broke

557
00:26:43,287 --> 00:26:49,367
Speaker 5: up tomorrow different, Oh, so upset. I'd be so upset

558
00:26:49,567 --> 00:26:51,847
Speaker 5: because what it is is that been through a lot.

559
00:26:52,087 --> 00:26:56,207
Speaker 5: Molly May has eight point two million girlfriends, right, so

560
00:26:56,247 --> 00:26:58,367
Speaker 5: you know how like May Or if you got cheated

561
00:26:58,367 --> 00:27:03,407
Speaker 5: on tomorrow, Holly and I would be giving Jason dirties. Right,

562
00:27:03,567 --> 00:27:05,407
Speaker 5: we wouldn't be very friendly with him in the lift,

563
00:27:05,447 --> 00:27:06,727
Speaker 5: I'll tell you that that's true.

564
00:27:06,767 --> 00:27:08,647
Speaker 1: So now he's in a world of pain.

565
00:27:08,847 --> 00:27:11,207
Speaker 5: Tommy took a little Bambi out for ice creamy the

566
00:27:11,207 --> 00:27:14,447
Speaker 5: all day had to have security because people are just

567
00:27:14,527 --> 00:27:18,287
Speaker 5: going you dirty, dirty dog. Imagine how brazen you have

568
00:27:18,367 --> 00:27:18,687
Speaker 5: to be.

569
00:27:19,087 --> 00:27:21,487
Speaker 6: Do you know what was interesting because when this happened,

570
00:27:21,807 --> 00:27:23,567
Speaker 6: I was about to say to us, to Holly and

571
00:27:23,567 --> 00:27:27,927
Speaker 6: I at the point when our friend Jennifer Aniston got

572
00:27:28,007 --> 00:27:31,767
Speaker 6: cheated on by Brad Pitt, no one turned on Brad Pitt, like,

573
00:27:31,807 --> 00:27:33,727
Speaker 6: not one person everyone because they all.

574
00:27:33,647 --> 00:27:34,487
Speaker 1: Tend to know Jelina.

575
00:27:35,047 --> 00:27:36,967
Speaker 6: Yeah, no one turned on Brad Pitt.

576
00:27:37,087 --> 00:27:40,727
Speaker 2: So this might be progress. If Tommy Fiury is being

577
00:27:40,767 --> 00:27:44,087
Speaker 2: harassed and beaten up in the street by angry ladies

578
00:27:44,607 --> 00:27:49,647
Speaker 2: who were throwing their shoes at him with bamby like, well, no,

579
00:27:49,727 --> 00:27:51,807
Speaker 2: of course, and I'm joking. Of course it's not okay

580
00:27:51,847 --> 00:27:56,207
Speaker 2: then harass anyone in the street. But I'm just saying, like, culturally,

581
00:27:56,727 --> 00:27:59,327
Speaker 2: at least they haven't all gone round to Danish lady's

582
00:27:59,407 --> 00:28:02,487
Speaker 2: house and they're like painting evil slogans on her. I

583
00:28:02,487 --> 00:28:03,247
Speaker 2: mean maybe they are.

584
00:28:03,447 --> 00:28:05,767
Speaker 6: So what happens now to Molly May? She's back on

585
00:28:05,807 --> 00:28:10,127
Speaker 6: social She's back on social. Who she's dating A Kennedy, No, she's.

586
00:28:09,967 --> 00:28:12,167
Speaker 5: Not dating anyone yet because she's spending time with Bambi

587
00:28:12,327 --> 00:28:16,007
Speaker 5: because she is a mother. And Tommy also he's denying

588
00:28:16,367 --> 00:28:18,447
Speaker 5: that he cheated. But what I say to Tommy is

589
00:28:18,487 --> 00:28:21,407
Speaker 5: the photos a giller leak, probably and the Danish woman

590
00:28:21,967 --> 00:28:24,487
Speaker 5: has said that you cheated, so I think you definitely

591
00:28:24,487 --> 00:28:26,687
Speaker 5: did cheat. I think he was a dirty dog. I

592
00:28:26,727 --> 00:28:29,967
Speaker 5: think that Molly May good on her for finally ending this.

593
00:28:30,047 --> 00:28:32,247
Speaker 5: I think that will be very good for her. But

594
00:28:32,567 --> 00:28:35,767
Speaker 5: I also think that we're so invested because they have

595
00:28:35,967 --> 00:28:38,607
Speaker 5: an eighteen month old and not only did he go

596
00:28:38,647 --> 00:28:42,367
Speaker 5: to North Macedonia clubbing at two am, but he cheated

597
00:28:42,407 --> 00:28:45,287
Speaker 5: on her in public. The sh oh, I'm so angry

598
00:28:45,287 --> 00:28:49,247
Speaker 5: at him. I reckon Holly's Mom's gonna when he walks

599
00:28:49,247 --> 00:28:50,487
Speaker 5: past Holly's mum on the street.

600
00:28:50,687 --> 00:28:52,087
Speaker 3: She's going to tut at him.

601
00:28:52,007 --> 00:28:54,687
Speaker 6: Because your mums drop over Orchestral I think maybe she

602
00:28:54,687 --> 00:28:57,287
Speaker 6: should write Yeah, if you want to know more about

603
00:28:57,287 --> 00:29:00,807
Speaker 6: Molly May and frankly, who doesn't come on. I've got

604
00:29:00,847 --> 00:29:02,047
Speaker 6: a lot of questions remaining.

605
00:29:02,127 --> 00:29:02,407
Speaker 2: Yeah.

606
00:29:02,527 --> 00:29:05,007
Speaker 5: There is a link in the show notes to the

607
00:29:05,127 --> 00:29:07,527
Speaker 5: extensive coverage we've offered on my man.

608
00:29:07,687 --> 00:29:13,607
Speaker 4: My mom is providing i''s life blogging from Manchester doing

609
00:29:13,647 --> 00:29:15,927
Speaker 4: a live cross.

610
00:29:15,607 --> 00:29:20,647
Speaker 1: To all his parents. Every Tuesday and Thursday.

611
00:29:20,327 --> 00:29:22,327
Speaker 6: We drop new segments of Mum and Me are Out

612
00:29:22,327 --> 00:29:25,207
Speaker 6: Loud Just for Mum and Me A subscribers follow the

613
00:29:25,247 --> 00:29:27,167
Speaker 6: link in the show notes to get your daily dose

614
00:29:27,207 --> 00:29:29,807
Speaker 6: of out Loud and a big thank you to everyone

615
00:29:29,887 --> 00:29:40,647
Speaker 6: who has already subscribed. Last Friday, the Seven Networks parent

616
00:29:40,727 --> 00:29:43,567
Speaker 6: companies Seven West Media held a staff meeting in Perth

617
00:29:44,007 --> 00:29:47,207
Speaker 6: to introduce some new senior stuff. They wanted everyone to

618
00:29:47,207 --> 00:29:49,527
Speaker 6: get to know them, including their new male editor in

619
00:29:49,607 --> 00:29:52,927
Speaker 6: chief of the West Australian newspaper and a new female editor,

620
00:29:52,927 --> 00:29:56,047
Speaker 6: the first one in the paper's history, as well as

621
00:29:56,047 --> 00:29:59,967
Speaker 6: the first LGBT appointment. A man who is the head

622
00:30:00,007 --> 00:30:02,727
Speaker 6: of the Sunday Times. I mean, I was a bit

623
00:30:02,767 --> 00:30:04,807
Speaker 6: confused when I read that, because presumably it's not the

624
00:30:04,847 --> 00:30:08,567
Speaker 6: first LGBT appointment to management, but perhaps it's the first

625
00:30:08,567 --> 00:30:10,367
Speaker 6: person who's public about it.

626
00:30:10,367 --> 00:30:12,927
Speaker 2: Doesn't if it is, is that something.

627
00:30:12,607 --> 00:30:13,287
Speaker 3: To be proud of?

628
00:30:13,847 --> 00:30:14,447
Speaker 4: My gods?

629
00:30:14,527 --> 00:30:15,607
Speaker 2: And like this is the first?

630
00:30:15,687 --> 00:30:17,527
Speaker 6: I guess what they're trying to say. The Seven Network,

631
00:30:17,527 --> 00:30:19,127
Speaker 6: as we know, has been under a lot of fire

632
00:30:19,207 --> 00:30:22,607
Speaker 6: lately for sexism and such things, and maybe they're trying

633
00:30:22,647 --> 00:30:24,287
Speaker 6: to say it's a new chapter.

634
00:30:25,087 --> 00:30:27,967
Speaker 1: We also are inclusive.

635
00:30:27,887 --> 00:30:31,287
Speaker 6: We're woke, We're welcoming well done to everyone with a

636
00:30:31,327 --> 00:30:33,967
Speaker 6: new job. The company was feeling celebratory, and why wouldn't

637
00:30:33,967 --> 00:30:38,127
Speaker 6: you be. But after welcoming the newbies, discussion turned to

638
00:30:38,167 --> 00:30:42,287
Speaker 6: the company's annual upfront's presentation to advertisers. Out louders might

639
00:30:42,327 --> 00:30:45,167
Speaker 6: be familiar with upfronts. They're the torturous thing that media

640
00:30:45,207 --> 00:30:47,527
Speaker 6: companies have to go through every year, where you go

641
00:30:47,807 --> 00:30:50,607
Speaker 6: and basically say, here, all the good things we've.

642
00:30:50,447 --> 00:30:52,567
Speaker 2: Got coming up with lots of times, haven't we we have?

643
00:30:52,887 --> 00:30:55,327
Speaker 6: Anyway, So they talked about what shows they'll be announcing,

644
00:30:55,367 --> 00:30:58,447
Speaker 6: and one of those shows is Perth's Christmas pageant, which

645
00:30:58,487 --> 00:30:59,607
Speaker 6: is apparently an institution.

646
00:31:00,087 --> 00:31:01,487
Speaker 3: I can't believe I've never watched it.

647
00:31:01,567 --> 00:31:03,927
Speaker 6: And that's when things took a turn. All I Want

648
00:31:03,967 --> 00:31:06,647
Speaker 6: for Christmas by Mariah Carey started playing.

649
00:31:07,807 --> 00:31:08,367
Speaker 1: That wasn't the.

650
00:31:08,287 --> 00:31:11,007
Speaker 6: Bad part, obviously, because who doesn't love that song for

651
00:31:11,167 --> 00:31:17,487
Speaker 6: bagger and yet, according to the Australian Financial Review, the

652
00:31:17,887 --> 00:31:21,767
Speaker 6: seven deputy news director was talking about the Christmas pageant

653
00:31:22,247 --> 00:31:26,727
Speaker 6: and out came a group of female dancers dressed in

654
00:31:28,407 --> 00:31:31,727
Speaker 6: well they said, not much at all, but I would

655
00:31:31,807 --> 00:31:34,247
Speaker 6: say from having seen the video which was leaked and

656
00:31:34,247 --> 00:31:36,447
Speaker 6: looking at the photos, it seemed like sort of i'm

657
00:31:36,487 --> 00:31:39,887
Speaker 6: gonna say, skimpy red dresses, like red dresses, and they

658
00:31:39,927 --> 00:31:41,607
Speaker 6: were doing they were sexy. It was a bit of

659
00:31:41,647 --> 00:31:44,087
Speaker 6: a sexy Santa situation. They were doing like high kicks,

660
00:31:44,207 --> 00:31:46,367
Speaker 6: a bit of a DCC vibe, a bit of a

661
00:31:46,407 --> 00:31:49,207
Speaker 6: DCC vibe. But I was saying they probably were more covered.

662
00:31:49,207 --> 00:31:52,247
Speaker 6: There was no midroof anyway. Pictures of the event pinned

663
00:31:52,287 --> 00:31:55,527
Speaker 6: around Perth media circles, with one likening them to slutty elves,

664
00:31:55,727 --> 00:31:59,767
Speaker 6: which I think is very udgy, judgy and unreasonable and

665
00:31:59,807 --> 00:32:02,807
Speaker 6: also slight shaming of elves, but also those women who

666
00:32:02,847 --> 00:32:05,887
Speaker 6: were al seriousness of professional dancers they dance at the pageant.

667
00:32:06,647 --> 00:32:10,447
Speaker 6: That seems harsh. Another it was like the girls dancing

668
00:32:10,487 --> 00:32:13,887
Speaker 6: around bill Ny in love. Actually yeah, that scene, and

669
00:32:14,367 --> 00:32:16,727
Speaker 6: some compared it to the pageants scene from Mean Girls.

670
00:32:16,887 --> 00:32:20,167
Speaker 6: But the point is that some female employees and potentially

671
00:32:20,207 --> 00:32:23,007
Speaker 6: some male ones were dumb struck and horrified at what

672
00:32:23,007 --> 00:32:28,047
Speaker 6: they were sitting through and some walked out in disgust. Now,

673
00:32:28,367 --> 00:32:32,927
Speaker 6: entertainers during media parties are pretty common. A Christmas party

674
00:32:33,007 --> 00:32:35,527
Speaker 6: might have some dances. I've been at a media conference

675
00:32:35,567 --> 00:32:39,367
Speaker 6: where there were like Brazilian dancers, which I'll be honest,

676
00:32:39,807 --> 00:32:41,927
Speaker 6: was a bit weird. They were kind of wearing nothing

677
00:32:41,927 --> 00:32:44,247
Speaker 6: and they were sort of shaking bits and it was

678
00:32:44,247 --> 00:32:47,207
Speaker 6: a work event. It for a little bit strange. A

679
00:32:47,247 --> 00:32:51,807
Speaker 6: seven spokesperson said that it was for the pageant, you know,

680
00:32:51,927 --> 00:32:54,607
Speaker 6: so what's wrong with it? But others have said, you know,

681
00:32:54,687 --> 00:32:58,447
Speaker 6: it's midday, it's a work day, and what's so sexy

682
00:32:58,447 --> 00:33:01,727
Speaker 6: about Christmas? Some have said, Jesse, you offended. Would you

683
00:33:01,727 --> 00:33:03,247
Speaker 6: have been offended? Would you have walked out?

684
00:33:03,727 --> 00:33:05,807
Speaker 5: I probably wouldn't have walked out, but just because I

685
00:33:05,847 --> 00:33:09,927
Speaker 5: don't like confrontation and I don't like kind of spotlight,

686
00:33:10,087 --> 00:33:13,327
Speaker 5: but I totally support. When I saw that footage, I

687
00:33:13,327 --> 00:33:15,727
Speaker 5: had a few thoughts all at once. I kind of went, oh, well,

688
00:33:15,727 --> 00:33:18,607
Speaker 5: they were consensually dancing and it was to promote something.

689
00:33:18,607 --> 00:33:21,567
Speaker 5: And then I went and watched the footage and I thought, oh, no,

690
00:33:21,687 --> 00:33:22,167
Speaker 5: I get it.

691
00:33:22,287 --> 00:33:22,767
Speaker 3: I get it.

692
00:33:23,047 --> 00:33:25,847
Speaker 5: If I am a woman working for Channel seven in

693
00:33:25,887 --> 00:33:28,167
Speaker 5: my business suit at the front and I could see

694
00:33:28,207 --> 00:33:32,007
Speaker 5: the women in particular, and it is eleven fifteen, it

695
00:33:32,087 --> 00:33:34,687
Speaker 5: is not even midday, and these women come out and

696
00:33:34,807 --> 00:33:39,527
Speaker 5: dance in their sexy Santa outfits, the messaging about what

697
00:33:39,567 --> 00:33:43,207
Speaker 5: we value about women is very confused, and also it

698
00:33:43,607 --> 00:33:46,647
Speaker 5: encapsulates this paradox of the modern moment, where we're going,

699
00:33:46,927 --> 00:33:50,167
Speaker 5: look our first female editor, Look the sexy Santas doing

700
00:33:50,167 --> 00:33:50,807
Speaker 5: sexy dance.

701
00:33:51,127 --> 00:33:51,687
Speaker 3: I think it.

702
00:33:51,647 --> 00:33:54,047
Speaker 6: Makes you so mad to play Devil's advocate. Isn't it

703
00:33:54,167 --> 00:33:56,607
Speaker 6: just the spectrum of options that are available for women?

704
00:33:57,447 --> 00:34:00,927
Speaker 5: I don't think so, because it's meant to be a

705
00:34:00,967 --> 00:34:04,567
Speaker 5: work event, and it also makes me feel as a woman.

706
00:34:04,687 --> 00:34:07,287
Speaker 5: It can make me feel very visible and oggl dat

707
00:34:07,767 --> 00:34:10,087
Speaker 5: if that's the job is We're meant to be looking

708
00:34:10,087 --> 00:34:12,927
Speaker 5: at these women's bodies and these women dancing and everything.

709
00:34:13,567 --> 00:34:16,767
Speaker 5: I don't think we can tell this story without just

710
00:34:16,927 --> 00:34:21,887
Speaker 5: adding in the context of Channel seven and the last

711
00:34:21,927 --> 00:34:25,087
Speaker 5: few months. Obviously there was an ABC four corners investigation

712
00:34:25,247 --> 00:34:29,927
Speaker 5: done about claims of sexism and sexual assault, and there

713
00:34:29,967 --> 00:34:33,727
Speaker 5: has also been the Bruce Laman claims about Channel seven

714
00:34:33,807 --> 00:34:37,967
Speaker 5: paying for sex workers. So within that context this looks bad.

715
00:34:38,247 --> 00:34:40,007
Speaker 2: Imagine the meeting where they.

716
00:34:39,967 --> 00:34:47,247
Speaker 4: Decided, having worked in the media business, like several media businesses,

717
00:34:47,727 --> 00:34:51,447
Speaker 4: just imagine where they were going. So we're getting everyone together,

718
00:34:51,847 --> 00:34:53,407
Speaker 4: We're going to introduce everybody.

719
00:34:53,407 --> 00:34:54,407
Speaker 2: It's going to be great.

720
00:34:54,767 --> 00:34:56,287
Speaker 4: And then someone's like, you know, we always have the

721
00:34:56,367 --> 00:34:58,487
Speaker 4: Christmas pageant dancers at that and there would have been

722
00:34:58,527 --> 00:35:00,447
Speaker 4: a one woman in that meeting going like, I don't

723
00:35:00,447 --> 00:35:02,367
Speaker 4: think that's a very good idea, and there's right.

724
00:35:02,887 --> 00:35:03,847
Speaker 3: Fun and then the.

725
00:35:05,367 --> 00:35:08,567
Speaker 2: Meeting probably one woman, the woman who is the new editor.

726
00:35:08,487 --> 00:35:11,767
Speaker 5: And the man in the definitely said you can't even

727
00:35:11,887 --> 00:35:17,847
Speaker 5: have women in sexy Sanna outfits dancing in August.

728
00:35:17,887 --> 00:35:20,527
Speaker 6: Having organized those meetings and like, you know, we've got

729
00:35:20,567 --> 00:35:22,687
Speaker 6: our all hands at me coming up tomorrow, and you're

730
00:35:22,687 --> 00:35:24,367
Speaker 6: always like, okay, we've got to do this, and we've

731
00:35:24,367 --> 00:35:25,687
Speaker 6: got to do that. How can we make it a

732
00:35:25,687 --> 00:35:28,207
Speaker 6: bit more fun, How can we do something that's just

733
00:35:28,247 --> 00:35:28,767
Speaker 6: to be fun.

734
00:35:28,887 --> 00:35:31,087
Speaker 3: I know everyone loves Christmas.

735
00:35:30,567 --> 00:35:32,327
Speaker 2: This is one of those meetings that should have been

736
00:35:32,327 --> 00:35:33,767
Speaker 2: an email. They should have just sent.

737
00:35:33,607 --> 00:35:39,127
Speaker 4: Out a phono Santa Me to all the women employees

738
00:35:39,207 --> 00:35:43,207
Speaker 4: and just said new business uniform at seven Media.

739
00:35:43,607 --> 00:35:46,167
Speaker 2: Anyway, because at first I was like, wow, would I

740
00:35:46,207 --> 00:35:48,527
Speaker 2: have walked out? I probably would not have walked out.

741
00:35:49,047 --> 00:35:51,767
Speaker 2: I actually read a lot of quotes from anonymous employees

742
00:35:51,767 --> 00:35:54,007
Speaker 2: who they weren't outraged like they're being presented like they

743
00:35:54,007 --> 00:35:56,487
Speaker 2: were outraged. They weren't outraged. They were just eye rolly,

744
00:35:56,607 --> 00:35:59,607
Speaker 2: and they were saying. One anonymous woman said, it's the

745
00:35:59,647 --> 00:36:03,287
Speaker 2: contrast four men talking about business, then four women come in,

746
00:36:03,407 --> 00:36:05,527
Speaker 2: doled up and scantily clad. What is the role of

747
00:36:05,567 --> 00:36:10,287
Speaker 2: women at this company? That's the right, That's the thing,

748
00:36:10,527 --> 00:36:14,967
Speaker 2: because you know, I understand that you can I roll

749
00:36:15,007 --> 00:36:18,127
Speaker 2: about the outrage here like, oh, calm down, everybody, it's

750
00:36:18,127 --> 00:36:18,927
Speaker 2: a Christmas pageant.

751
00:36:18,927 --> 00:36:20,927
Speaker 4: We always have sexy senters.

752
00:36:21,247 --> 00:36:22,527
Speaker 1: They cheer everybody up.

753
00:36:22,847 --> 00:36:25,847
Speaker 2: The news cycles very rough. We all you know what

754
00:36:26,687 --> 00:36:30,287
Speaker 2: it's just immediately says this is what we think of women.

755
00:36:30,527 --> 00:36:33,007
Speaker 6: I've been in a couple of those situations where it's

756
00:36:33,087 --> 00:36:37,127
Speaker 6: been I've felt so offended is not the right word,

757
00:36:37,687 --> 00:36:40,807
Speaker 6: but I think appalled is probably the right word. The

758
00:36:40,807 --> 00:36:43,727
Speaker 6: one that I think about all the time is about

759
00:36:43,727 --> 00:36:47,047
Speaker 6: eight years ago I was invited to be a keynote

760
00:36:47,047 --> 00:36:51,607
Speaker 6: speaker at another institutional event. It's like a big lunch

761
00:36:51,727 --> 00:36:54,807
Speaker 6: that they have up in Brisbane for like media agencies

762
00:36:54,807 --> 00:36:56,127
Speaker 6: and advertising agencies.

763
00:36:56,727 --> 00:36:57,687
Speaker 1: There would have been about.

764
00:36:57,487 --> 00:37:00,727
Speaker 6: A thousand people there and the MC was like a

765
00:37:00,767 --> 00:37:03,047
Speaker 6: guy from like a I want to say, like a

766
00:37:03,127 --> 00:37:05,007
Speaker 6: radio station. He's quite well known. I can't remember what

767
00:37:05,047 --> 00:37:06,567
Speaker 6: his name he's but everybody in the room knew who

768
00:37:06,687 --> 00:37:09,647
Speaker 6: was and he was, you know, introducing all this because

769
00:37:09,687 --> 00:37:12,967
Speaker 6: and the room was packed. It was probably equally male

770
00:37:13,007 --> 00:37:16,487
Speaker 6: and female professionals. It was lunchtime on a weekday. And

771
00:37:16,527 --> 00:37:21,127
Speaker 6: then he said, Okay, all the women in the room,

772
00:37:21,647 --> 00:37:24,607
Speaker 6: I want it all stand up. And I just got

773
00:37:24,647 --> 00:37:27,087
Speaker 6: that sense that something was up and I didn't stand up,

774
00:37:27,127 --> 00:37:27,887
Speaker 6: but a lot of women did.

775
00:37:27,927 --> 00:37:29,327
Speaker 1: Most women stood up because you.

776
00:37:29,247 --> 00:37:30,727
Speaker 6: Don't want to be you know, you don't want to

777
00:37:30,767 --> 00:37:34,487
Speaker 6: be that person. And then he goes, now, all the blokes,

778
00:37:34,527 --> 00:37:36,087
Speaker 6: I just want you to lean back a bit and

779
00:37:36,207 --> 00:37:41,647
Speaker 6: check out the lovely view of all. And I was

780
00:37:41,687 --> 00:37:43,847
Speaker 6: sitting there, and again there was like a bit of

781
00:37:43,887 --> 00:37:47,207
Speaker 6: a groan, but not like what you would think. This

782
00:37:47,247 --> 00:37:50,727
Speaker 6: is probably just pre me too. I would like to

783
00:37:50,727 --> 00:37:53,887
Speaker 6: think it wouldn't happen today. And I was sitting there,

784
00:37:54,367 --> 00:37:56,127
Speaker 6: and I wanted to get up and walk out, but

785
00:37:56,167 --> 00:37:59,887
Speaker 6: I thought, I'm being paid to be to give a

786
00:37:59,967 --> 00:38:03,607
Speaker 6: keynote speech. If I walk out, I make this whole

787
00:38:03,647 --> 00:38:07,807
Speaker 6: thing about me. It then becomes about me, and it

788
00:38:07,887 --> 00:38:11,887
Speaker 6: also puts the mental load and the reputational load of

789
00:38:11,887 --> 00:38:13,527
Speaker 6: that whole story becoming about me.

790
00:38:13,967 --> 00:38:17,167
Speaker 5: I also can't I sat there. Yeah, I also can't

791
00:38:17,167 --> 00:38:19,407
Speaker 5: make a decision in the moment. I overthink things. So

792
00:38:19,447 --> 00:38:22,527
Speaker 5: I've been in exactly the same situation as in a

793
00:38:22,567 --> 00:38:25,247
Speaker 5: work situation, where I've felt like something sexist has been

794
00:38:25,287 --> 00:38:28,007
Speaker 5: said or an environment is making me uncomfortable, and the

795
00:38:28,007 --> 00:38:31,487
Speaker 5: thought has crossed my mind. If I were a different person, maybe,

796
00:38:31,487 --> 00:38:34,207
Speaker 5: if I were a braver person, I would stand up

797
00:38:34,247 --> 00:38:36,607
Speaker 5: and leave, and I think that would say everything I

798
00:38:36,687 --> 00:38:38,847
Speaker 5: need to say. But instead I have just sat there.

799
00:38:39,327 --> 00:38:41,527
Speaker 5: And it's because I can't make up my mind.

800
00:38:41,287 --> 00:38:43,167
Speaker 3: About what's the most Because.

801
00:38:42,927 --> 00:38:45,007
Speaker 6: If I left, the cost would be on me.

802
00:38:45,207 --> 00:38:48,847
Speaker 2: But also in that instance, when you just told that story,

803
00:38:48,887 --> 00:38:51,327
Speaker 2: my immediate mind goes to, first of all, I'm like, no,

804
00:38:51,367 --> 00:38:53,687
Speaker 2: wonder women are so fucking angry like that one my

805
00:38:53,727 --> 00:38:56,927
Speaker 2: first thought. But my second thought was what's the plausible

806
00:38:56,967 --> 00:38:59,887
Speaker 2: deniability of that guy? And you could go, well, maybe

807
00:38:59,967 --> 00:39:02,447
Speaker 2: he could argue I wanted to make the point that

808
00:39:02,487 --> 00:39:05,207
Speaker 2: we employ all these women, and isn't it lovely to

809
00:39:05,327 --> 00:39:08,607
Speaker 2: see all these women there? Like yeah, you know immediately

810
00:39:09,047 --> 00:39:11,407
Speaker 2: that the defense like if you'd have then stood up

811
00:39:11,447 --> 00:39:14,207
Speaker 2: and made your speech and said, all the blokes stand up,

812
00:39:14,247 --> 00:39:16,767
Speaker 2: and what a lot of dickheads they are in this room. No,

813
00:39:16,927 --> 00:39:19,287
Speaker 2: it's like check out their packages. But if you'd have

814
00:39:19,327 --> 00:39:21,967
Speaker 2: done that, then it would have been what an overreaction?

815
00:39:22,407 --> 00:39:24,767
Speaker 2: Like I just meant, aren't these women great?

816
00:39:25,007 --> 00:39:25,127
Speaker 4: No?

817
00:39:25,127 --> 00:39:26,567
Speaker 1: No, he implicitly said.

818
00:39:26,647 --> 00:39:29,007
Speaker 6: It wasn't like, look at all the beautiful women, It

819
00:39:29,247 --> 00:39:30,847
Speaker 6: was look at their ass.

820
00:39:32,527 --> 00:39:34,847
Speaker 5: I reckon that our resistance to walking out is that

821
00:39:34,887 --> 00:39:37,207
Speaker 5: we don't want to be seen as like a buzzkill

822
00:39:37,327 --> 00:39:39,927
Speaker 5: or someone who like, isn't fun. The way that it's

823
00:39:40,447 --> 00:39:43,447
Speaker 5: it's framed, and in my situation too, is that we're

824
00:39:43,447 --> 00:39:44,407
Speaker 5: all just having a bit of fun.

825
00:39:45,207 --> 00:39:47,607
Speaker 6: That wasn't the mood. I mean, it was the mood

826
00:39:47,607 --> 00:39:51,007
Speaker 6: from that guy. There was an understanding that that was shit,

827
00:39:51,687 --> 00:39:56,647
Speaker 6: but it was also like, oh, that's just Jacko exactly,

828
00:39:56,967 --> 00:39:59,287
Speaker 6: let's move on. So I didn't want to pull focus

829
00:39:59,327 --> 00:40:01,287
Speaker 6: because I didn't want to then make it all about me.

830
00:40:01,327 --> 00:40:04,447
Speaker 6: So instead I sat there and seethed and felt like

831
00:40:04,487 --> 00:40:07,007
Speaker 6: I was selling out women, like I was selling out myself.

832
00:40:07,647 --> 00:40:09,247
Speaker 2: And all the women who stood up felt the same

833
00:40:09,287 --> 00:40:09,607
Speaker 2: way too.

834
00:40:09,687 --> 00:40:12,687
Speaker 6: Oh, and they were utterly humiliated. Every woman who stood

835
00:40:12,727 --> 00:40:14,047
Speaker 6: up felt amiliate.

836
00:40:14,167 --> 00:40:16,007
Speaker 5: A lot of friends say, we have a group chat

837
00:40:16,047 --> 00:40:18,087
Speaker 5: and we're talking about what we do in that situation.

838
00:40:18,127 --> 00:40:20,847
Speaker 5: A lot of friends said, I am so delusionally tired

839
00:40:20,927 --> 00:40:23,567
Speaker 5: right now that I can see myself bopping along tapping

840
00:40:23,647 --> 00:40:24,367
Speaker 5: my thin being like.

841
00:40:24,407 --> 00:40:29,887
Speaker 3: Oh, I like this is.

842
00:40:29,887 --> 00:40:35,127
Speaker 2: That's just Jacko. Perfectly encapsulates what women have been trying

843
00:40:35,167 --> 00:40:37,567
Speaker 2: to say with me too, and ever since everything is like,

844
00:40:37,767 --> 00:40:40,607
Speaker 2: we are done with that's just Jacko, you know, I mean,

845
00:40:40,687 --> 00:40:42,967
Speaker 2: it's outrageous. Just to give you a bit of an idea, though,

846
00:40:43,087 --> 00:40:46,407
Speaker 2: this story and the screenshot in particular of the sexy

847
00:40:46,407 --> 00:40:48,887
Speaker 2: Sidner has gone around the world, It's in the papers

848
00:40:48,887 --> 00:40:51,847
Speaker 2: in America, the New York Post, It's all over the place.

849
00:40:51,847 --> 00:40:56,287
Speaker 2: Everybody's like, what is going on in Australia, This is

850
00:40:56,327 --> 00:41:00,127
Speaker 2: a business meeting, blah blah blahlah blah, and you're just great.

851
00:41:01,247 --> 00:41:03,847
Speaker 6: The serious part of this is that you were talking

852
00:41:03,927 --> 00:41:06,647
Speaker 6: about the people in the room when those conversations happen.

853
00:41:07,007 --> 00:41:10,167
Speaker 6: This is why inclusion is so important, because because it

854
00:41:10,247 --> 00:41:12,327
Speaker 6: might be women, it might be people of color, it

855
00:41:12,367 --> 00:41:16,047
Speaker 6: might be people of different sexualities, different religions. If everybody

856
00:41:16,047 --> 00:41:19,567
Speaker 6: in the room has the same lived experience and doesn't

857
00:41:19,567 --> 00:41:23,967
Speaker 6: know what it feels like to feel uncomfortable offended, even

858
00:41:24,007 --> 00:41:26,687
Speaker 6: if the intention was not to offend anyone, and I

859
00:41:26,727 --> 00:41:30,487
Speaker 6: accept that it isn't. That's why you need different people

860
00:41:30,527 --> 00:41:33,007
Speaker 6: in boardrooms, you need different people in newsrooms. You need

861
00:41:33,007 --> 00:41:36,447
Speaker 6: different people in management who can be the decision makers

862
00:41:36,447 --> 00:41:40,247
Speaker 6: who are saying, hey, jacko, you can't do that, or hey,

863
00:41:40,487 --> 00:41:43,927
Speaker 6: let's not get those dances because this is why. And

864
00:41:43,967 --> 00:41:47,047
Speaker 6: the guys around that table would probably go They'll either go, oh,

865
00:41:47,047 --> 00:41:50,967
Speaker 6: come on, you can't even just ogle sexy sounds anymore.

866
00:41:50,887 --> 00:41:53,327
Speaker 2: Or they'll be like, oh shit, I hadn't thought about it,

867
00:41:53,327 --> 00:41:55,447
Speaker 2: but you. Also, it's not really enough to just have

868
00:41:55,487 --> 00:41:57,127
Speaker 2: the person at the table. The culture has to be

869
00:41:57,167 --> 00:42:00,247
Speaker 2: that you'll listen, because it's not really fair to put

870
00:42:00,247 --> 00:42:02,207
Speaker 2: one woman in the room and say you tell us

871
00:42:02,207 --> 00:42:04,487
Speaker 2: if you think things are problematic to a culture that's

872
00:42:04,487 --> 00:42:06,887
Speaker 2: all just going to dismiss you. Like it has to

873
00:42:06,927 --> 00:42:09,367
Speaker 2: be an open minded listening thing.

874
00:42:09,447 --> 00:42:10,207
Speaker 1: It does, you know?

875
00:42:10,367 --> 00:42:12,807
Speaker 2: I wanted to say about meetings. Elon Musk has a

876
00:42:12,807 --> 00:42:15,247
Speaker 2: famous quote that he's given his He gives his staff

877
00:42:15,287 --> 00:42:17,327
Speaker 2: permission to walk out of any meeting as soon as

878
00:42:17,367 --> 00:42:19,807
Speaker 2: they realize they can no longer add value. And I

879
00:42:19,927 --> 00:42:22,007
Speaker 2: just feel like if all the women.

880
00:42:22,487 --> 00:42:25,367
Speaker 4: Had been able to stand up at that minute and

881
00:42:25,407 --> 00:42:27,967
Speaker 4: walk down, it would have been perfect because you'd be like, clearly,

882
00:42:28,487 --> 00:42:30,167
Speaker 4: we are not adding value to this room.

883
00:42:30,527 --> 00:42:33,007
Speaker 3: I put on a sound to hat out louders.

884
00:42:33,247 --> 00:42:35,527
Speaker 5: So many of you have had a lot to say

885
00:42:35,647 --> 00:42:39,167
Speaker 5: about trigger warnings in the mummey out Louder's Facebook group,

886
00:42:39,287 --> 00:42:42,207
Speaker 5: and our conversation hasn't stopped. It continue in the group chat,

887
00:42:42,247 --> 00:42:45,607
Speaker 5: and there was new evidence that needed to be submitted.

888
00:42:46,087 --> 00:42:50,087
Speaker 5: So what we did is we recorded yesterday's subscriber episode

889
00:42:50,247 --> 00:42:53,007
Speaker 5: all about trigger warnings. Here is a sneak peak from

890
00:42:53,007 --> 00:42:53,927
Speaker 5: that episode.

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00:42:54,167 --> 00:42:57,807
Speaker 6: Why are we treating adults like children. As adults, we

892
00:42:57,887 --> 00:42:59,847
Speaker 6: are responsible to protect oursel.

893
00:43:01,007 --> 00:43:03,567
Speaker 5: We have the same emotional capacity every single one of us,

894
00:43:03,567 --> 00:43:06,767
Speaker 5: regardless of what we've experted. To listen, follow the link

895
00:43:06,807 --> 00:43:08,847
Speaker 5: in our show notes and jump in the Facebook group

896
00:43:08,887 --> 00:43:09,647
Speaker 5: and join chat.

897
00:43:10,087 --> 00:43:12,527
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you out louders

898
00:43:12,527 --> 00:43:15,087
Speaker 2: for listening to us today and always, and of course

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00:43:15,087 --> 00:43:17,087
Speaker 2: to our fabulous team for putting it together. We're going

900
00:43:17,127 --> 00:43:18,647
Speaker 2: to be back in your ears tomorrow.

901
00:43:18,847 --> 00:43:20,487
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye.

902
00:43:21,367 --> 00:43:24,247
Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you

903
00:43:24,407 --> 00:43:27,247
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

904
00:43:27,287 --> 00:43:29,727
Speaker 2: to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

905
00:43:29,927 --> 00:43:31,767
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description.