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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: I really when I see someone with a bun on

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Speaker 3: the top of their head, I go shit, she is

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Speaker 3: so deep.

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Speaker 4: That's a busy woman.

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Speaker 3: That is a daddy, a busy woman. She's got to

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Speaker 3: concentrate so much, she's got to pull her hair back

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Speaker 3: from her brain.

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Speaker 4: Hello, Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out Loud What

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Speaker 4: women are actually talking about? Wednesday, the twelfth of March.

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Speaker 4: I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea.

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Speaker 3: Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 4: And on the show today there's a celebrity family with

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Speaker 4: seven children, some dubious accent choices, and a wrongful death

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Speaker 4: suit hanging over their heads. So they've opened up their

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Speaker 4: front door and invited us inside. Why also, are your friends'

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Speaker 4: tweakments making you feel bad about your face?

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Speaker 5: Why?

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Speaker 4: Competitive aging is ruining friendships and it's starting young than

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Speaker 4: ever And in a world of constant feedback loops, it's

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Speaker 4: getting harder and harder to be a hell yes, fuck

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Speaker 4: no person. How to get better at trusting your gut?

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Speaker 4: But first, Mia.

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Speaker 1: In case you missed it, the first girl's trip to

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Speaker 1: space has been announced, and my response is, oh no,

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Speaker 1: I'd hate that. Last week, Blue Origin, the aerospace company

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Speaker 1: founded by Jeff Bezos, announced an all female crew for

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Speaker 1: its eleventh human spaceflight. It's going to happen in a

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Speaker 1: few months time, and this is the exciting bit. The

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Speaker 1: crew stars Jeff Bezos's fiance Lauren Sanchez, Oprah's best friend

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Speaker 1: and TV journalist gau King, and popstar Katie Perry, who posted.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, my question is are they flying the spaceship?

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Speaker 1: I assume not. No, they're passengers. But Katie Perry posted,

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Speaker 1: if you had told me that I would be part

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Speaker 1: of the first ever all female crew in space, I

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Speaker 1: would have believed you. Gau King, however, is not so

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Speaker 1: thrilled about it. Have a listened to what she had

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Speaker 1: to say.

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Speaker 5: I have to tell you.

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Speaker 1: I'm sore.

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Speaker 3: Frey stop girl.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm so afraid, but I'm also so excited about it.

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Speaker 5: When they asked me, and they asked me around Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 5: I was like, no, no, no. Then I started thinking

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Speaker 5: about it. I met with favorite daughter Kirby, favorite son

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Speaker 5: Will Oprah. That's my kitchen cabinet they will all be

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Speaker 5: there that day with their spouses, and I just thought,

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Speaker 5: what a unique opportunity. And then yesterday I met the crew.

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Speaker 5: We're now the crew. We're all in a text chain together,

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Speaker 5: and their stories are so amazing.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because it used to be that you needed

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Speaker 1: years of NASA training and the job titled astronaut to

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Speaker 1: be launched into space. But we've entered this age of

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Speaker 1: space tourism. So Blue Origin and Elon Musk, SpaceX and

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Speaker 1: Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic have made going into space and

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Speaker 1: attainable reality well for the rich and a bit of

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Speaker 1: a reality spectacle for the rest of us. And now

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Speaker 1: they're sending these celebrities up there for publicity so that

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Speaker 1: regular degulars with millions of dollars will hear about it

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Speaker 1: and book their tickets. And tickets cost between one million

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Speaker 1: dollars and one hundred and ten million dollars, depending on

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Speaker 1: how long you're up for how high you go. So, Jesse,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel about adding another date to the

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Speaker 1: Out Loud Live tour and getting on a space rocket

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Speaker 1: with me?

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Speaker 3: And I'm being sponsored by them doing a little show

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Speaker 3: from Space Life Broadcast. I'm so annoyed because I feel

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Speaker 3: like I'm going to get talked into going to space

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Speaker 3: and I don't want to go. I feel as though

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Speaker 3: there's a girl's trip in my future where everyone goes, no,

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Speaker 3: we really want to go to space.

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Speaker 4: And it's fun.

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Speaker 1: It's a hen's week it's a weekend, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to say you have to come. I want

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Speaker 3: to go to Mexico. No, I want to go to

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Speaker 3: the Bahamas, and they're going to say no, Space and

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Speaker 3: there's not a Paul or a cocktail there.

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Speaker 4: I would love to go to space. I would get

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Speaker 4: on that ship. I would throw Katie Perry out of

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Speaker 4: that ship. The wood crew is really freaking me out though,

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Speaker 4: because it does sound like they're flying it. Lauren Sanchez, though,

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Speaker 4: can flyplanes, so she's a helicopter. Helicopter so she doesn't

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Speaker 4: and she's written a children's book about a buzzy bean

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Speaker 4: in space, so she's very well qualified. Lauren could be

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Speaker 4: at the controls. I would love it.

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Speaker 3: It's no, okay, it's gonna be the worst girl's weekend

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Speaker 3: because this is what people don't understand. As I talked

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Speaker 3: about last week, I went to space via a book

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Speaker 3: that I read recently orbital so vomiting, painting, headaches, not

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Speaker 3: the I don't think even if it's fancy, I think

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Speaker 3: you're still in space.

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Speaker 1: I think Lauren Sanchez's boobs will explode.

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Speaker 3: Oh, Freedman, that's so help.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a fair question.

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Speaker 4: Will help with the floating around. Funny is that when

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Speaker 4: you're taking tourists into space, it can't be too spacey

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Speaker 4: like what you're talking about, because that would be terrible.

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Speaker 4: But they have to get that opportunity to float about,

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Speaker 4: right otherwise you're not going, like I'm not going unless

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Speaker 4: I get to it. Currently, Lauren Sanchez.

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Speaker 3: You've got to do tests for claustrophobia because people often like,

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Speaker 3: can you imagine going up there? I'm incredibly claustrophobic. I

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Speaker 3: don't love a lyft. I am an hour in and

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Speaker 3: I have never been more trapped in my life. I

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Speaker 3: can see someone. I can see Katie Perry, who's pretty

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Speaker 3: confident losing it. She's the one who's going to start

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Speaker 3: hyperventilating and go and get me out, Get me out.

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Speaker 4: I can also see a singing woman's world too. You

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Speaker 4: never again and you're like open.

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Speaker 3: Nothing, tramped on.

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Speaker 4: Now, I'll take my chances with the asteroids.

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Speaker 6: We moved into this apartment in November of twenty eleven.

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Speaker 6: Her and I no kids, quiet, and then number one

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Speaker 6: came one kid, two kids, No you'll come back. No, no, no,

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Speaker 6: don't do that. Oh Wedd's up. Three kids, four kids,

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Speaker 6: And I thought that was the outer limits.

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Speaker 3: Become going what is what haves? Though he had no

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Speaker 3: saying how many children they are.

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Speaker 4: It's hilarious, right, So, welcome to a luxurious penthouse apartment

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Speaker 4: in Greenwich Village, New York City. We're a very famous

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Speaker 4: movie star. Just turn him. Alec Baldwin is living with

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Speaker 4: his much younger wife, their seven children, aged between eleven

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Speaker 4: and two, two nannies, many pets, and a manslaughter charge

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Speaker 4: hanging over their heads. Yes, it's feel good reality TV

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Speaker 4: show The Baldwins, all about Aleck and his wife Hilaria,

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Speaker 4: and I watched it so you don't have to hear

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Speaker 4: us some very short life's two short takeaways. The show

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Speaker 4: is apparently filmed in the run up to Baldwin's trial

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Speaker 4: over the twenty twenty one death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins.

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Speaker 4: In case you don't remember, Helena died when a gun

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Speaker 4: Baldwin was firing on the set of The Western Rust

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Speaker 4: did not fire the standard blanks but live ammunition. She

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Speaker 4: was the mother to a nine year old son. That

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Speaker 4: case was eventually dismissed, but civil charges are pending. This

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Speaker 4: makes it a tricky tonal needle to thread, right because

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Speaker 4: that trial and the stress of it on the Baldwins

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Speaker 4: is frequently mentioned and counted down to through the first episode.

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Speaker 1: Right, They talk about it all a lot.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But the other overarching plotline is like this supposedly

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Speaker 4: comedic mayhem of a family where a sixty six year

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Speaker 4: old man is parenting seven children. Right, so there are

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Speaker 4: like birthday cake calamities and dog weee on the floor

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Speaker 4: and constant mess and shouting so wacky, yeah, and him

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Speaker 4: doing a very good job of remembering all their names

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Speaker 4: and things about their personalities. And then also there's Hilaria, right,

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Speaker 4: And I know we're not meant to mention women's appearance,

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Speaker 4: but her breasts are unbelievably distracting and stupendous. She's talking

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Speaker 4: to camera all the time about her babies, about the

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Speaker 4: absence of a prenup, about what a dark time this

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Speaker 4: is in their lives. Such a dark time that it's

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Speaker 4: been turned into a chirpy reality show Mia, considering that

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Speaker 4: overall the impression is of a troubled man falling apart

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Speaker 4: in the middle of an ocean of children and tiny

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Speaker 4: dogs and cats that he's allergic to. Why would Alec

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Speaker 4: Baldwin and Alaria, of course, decide to make a reality

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Speaker 4: show at all, and especially now.

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Speaker 1: The first reason is because all the lawyer's fees are

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Speaker 1: very expensive. The second reason is the same reason why

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Speaker 1: most people do reality shows, which is they want to

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Speaker 1: be understood, most famous people in the same way that

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Speaker 1: Megan did her show. They want to write their own narrative,

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Speaker 1: and they feel that the narrative created for them by

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Speaker 1: the media and social media is incorrect and unfair, and

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Speaker 1: they want to change the conversation and be better known.

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Speaker 1: So the narrative that's been written for the Baldwins until

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Speaker 1: this show was as you say, the tragedy of what

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Speaker 1: happened on the set of Rust, and also Alaria and

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Speaker 1: the how you say cucumber and her accent where and

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, during a bit of a quiet

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Speaker 1: news cycle, I think it was around Christmas. A couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, a video emerged of her doing a

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Speaker 1: cooking demonstration and struggling with her English, and she's often

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Speaker 1: spoken in a Spanish accent, and it came out that

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Speaker 1: she's actually Hillary from Boston, who has no Spanish background,

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Speaker 1: no Spanish heritage. She spent some time in Spain. I

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Speaker 1: think her parents moved there after they retired, and she

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Speaker 1: visited there a few times. But it became this idea

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Speaker 1: that she was cosplaying being Spanish.

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Speaker 4: Speaks Spanish in the show a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And at one point in the show he says, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: you're speaking too fast, and you're speaking in a Spanish accent,

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Speaker 1: which never goes well, and so they do talk about that.

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Speaker 1: I've only watched a little bit of the show, but

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Speaker 1: I had it on in the background while we were

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Speaker 1: preparing for today, and every time I looked at the screen,

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Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin just looked either like he'd been crying, I

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Speaker 1: assume that's when he was talking about what had happened

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Speaker 1: on the set and the trial, or just utterly beleagued

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Speaker 1: and overwhelmed, as you would be.

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Speaker 3: Because he's sixty six.

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Speaker 1: He is and he's like a curmudgeonally, like his vibe

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Speaker 1: is like grumpy. He's famously used to have a lot

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Speaker 1: of clashes with the paparazzi. Way before any of this,

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Speaker 1: he played Trump on Saturday Night Live for a while.

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Speaker 4: He's also sixty six in a way that we're going

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Speaker 4: to talk about aging in a bit, but like he

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Speaker 4: is not a sixty six year old movie star who's

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Speaker 4: in action movie form. Like he's a sixty six year

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Speaker 4: old movie star who actually looks sixty six, which is

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Speaker 4: not Tane.

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Speaker 1: Cruise or Brad Pea.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, not right now. He certainly isn't, both in his

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Speaker 4: physical shape and his like very deep bags, Like he

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Speaker 4: looks absolutely knackered, and he also looks like someone you know,

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Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a dystopian nightmare that is tonally completely incoherent.

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Speaker 3: I have no idea why you would think this is

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Speaker 3: a good idea, and this would end well to have

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Speaker 3: the storyline of the sort of bumbling father and the

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Speaker 3: funny chaos of the seven kids and da da da

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Speaker 3: that reality show green Light understand great happens all the time.

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Speaker 3: That's great. Then you need to layer it with some steaks,

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Speaker 3: which is often the thing. It's like you see in

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Speaker 3: every documentary It's like, what's our narrative arc, what are

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Speaker 3: we working towards to laya that with the stakes of

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Speaker 3: a woman who was killed and a little boy lost

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Speaker 3: his mother, and the family is reeling and has said,

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Speaker 3: we don't like this, we don't want this, we don't

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Speaker 3: want this show. We find this really really uncomfortable, just

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Speaker 3: feels so wrong, And a lot of people are saying, like,

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Speaker 3: Alec Baldwin wasn't victim. Stories can have more than one victim,

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Speaker 3: And I actually have empathy for Alec Baldwin. It was

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Speaker 3: an accident. His life will never be the same. He

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Speaker 3: is certainly not a victim in the same way as

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Speaker 3: Helena was and her family. That's just the most awful,

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Speaker 3: horrendous thing to have happened on set, But to use

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Speaker 3: it as fodder for a reality show is so distasteful.

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Speaker 1: My suspicion is that this was in the works way

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Speaker 1: before that happened, because I mean it has been for

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Speaker 1: those people who sort of followed her. She was a

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Speaker 1: yoga instructor, Taylor's oldest time, older man hooks up with

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Speaker 1: younger woman and then she starts having the babies, and

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Speaker 1: you know, one and two, yeah, and one and two,

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Speaker 1: and then three, and then it suddenly he's a bit

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Speaker 1: my Roman empire. That's why this reality show is a

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Speaker 1: little bit my brain coming to life, because I think

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Speaker 1: about it often, like sometimes on the weekend, when I'll

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Speaker 1: just be chilling, I'll go imagine being Alec Baldwin. You

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Speaker 1: finished work and you come home because he's still got

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Speaker 1: to work, he's got to support seven children, and you

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Speaker 1: come home and you've got seven babies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's funny how we do this to older men, right,

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Speaker 3: And it happens a bit in the White Lotus too,

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Speaker 3: like the dynamic of the older man and the younger woman,

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Speaker 3: almost like he's being manipulated or exploited by a younger

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Speaker 3: woman who wants one hundred children and five hundred pets,

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Speaker 3: as though he has no agency in his life, like

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Speaker 3: the thing of just like how do we get all

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Speaker 3: these children? And then he refers more than once I

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Speaker 3: think to having seven children, like, oh we had seven children,

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Speaker 3: you have eight children, mate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but it is true that the question of why

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Speaker 4: seven children is not answered, right, But he does say

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Speaker 4: at the beginning, and she says too that when they

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Speaker 4: very first met, he was very clear, I want kids.

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Speaker 4: I want more kids. I want them now. And he

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Speaker 4: says that he had this famously toxic, acrimonious divorce from

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Speaker 4: Kim Besinger back in the day, with whom he had

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Speaker 4: a daughter Ireland, and that went very badly. And a

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Speaker 4: voice message back in the times of answering machines and

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Speaker 4: all the rest of it was released where he was

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Speaker 4: berating his teenage daughter a carder, a little pig, and

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Speaker 4: that went well old fashioned viral, and his whole thing

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Speaker 4: was what a terrible father, what a monster. And he

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Speaker 4: sort of says I wanted a chance to do it again.

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Speaker 4: And what's interesting about him saying that is I think

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Speaker 4: a lot of older men think that they think I

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Speaker 4: screwed it up the first time. I want another go

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Speaker 4: at it. I'm going to do it differently. There's two

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Speaker 4: things about this that I find interesting. Usually I'm pretty

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Speaker 4: forgiving about people putting their kids in content. Right, if

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Speaker 4: everyone's having a good time and people are getting paid

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Speaker 4: and it's fair, I'm like, go for it. But this

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Speaker 4: is really interesting because over the course of episode one,

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Speaker 4: you get individually introduced to every kid with their name,

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Speaker 4: with their personality traits. Little so and so likes planes,

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Speaker 4: This one's really thoughtful, this one's really funny. This little

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Speaker 4: girl's really bossy. The teenage girl is a classic teenage

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Speaker 4: girl with lots of hair tossing and short shorts, and

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Speaker 4: you're kind of like that footage is there forever now

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Speaker 4: in a show that a lot of people are gonna

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Speaker 4: hate watch. And the other thing that's interesting to me,

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Speaker 4: I'm as much as the next person like to look

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Speaker 4: inside rich people's lives, and so I'm like, I want

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Speaker 4: to see this five bedroom penthouse apartment and they've got

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Speaker 4: to see through dog pen and they've got the nannies

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Speaker 4: and the cars and all that. But there is nothing

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Speaker 4: aspirational about this show, right, you just go, oh no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: no no, did you I see?

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Speaker 3: I don't mind the chaos. And there's something about the

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Speaker 3: presenting it as a bit of a freak show that

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Speaker 3: irks me a little bit. Maybe because my mum was

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Speaker 3: one of seven and they, you know, came from like

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Speaker 3: big Irish families. I see the appeal of that and

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Speaker 3: the whole like why would you have like seven, which

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Speaker 3: is what a lot of people are saying, is like.

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Speaker 1: They're always interested in big families.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and how they work? Yeah, I think that the

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Speaker 3: machinations of how they all get car like, that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember all their names? Like how you give

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Speaker 1: them all attention?

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Speaker 3: But I agree with you Holly on the kids, because

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Speaker 3: there was a clip I watched of she might have

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Speaker 3: been twelve speaking to her mum about Alec being in

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Speaker 3: court and reflecting on how scared she was he was

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Speaker 3: going to be sent to jail, and I just thought,

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Speaker 3: this is a really private, vulnerable, scary moment. And what

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Speaker 3: we know now about how reality TV is produced and

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Speaker 3: the way that would have been filmed, the crew, how

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Speaker 3: much they would have had to get in order to

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Speaker 3: even make the show.

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Speaker 1: Anytimes she would have had to have the conversation. That's

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Speaker 1: a great point.

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Speaker 4: Do you think they would have been paid lots and

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Speaker 4: lots and lots, Yeah, because, as you say, the money

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Speaker 4: is significant, and they in this you see they're lavish

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Speaker 4: in inverted commas Hampton's Beach House, which apparently is up

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Speaker 4: for sale for similar reasons. So it's a little bit

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Speaker 4: of desperation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, they've got bills to pay. It's simple business.

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Speaker 1: And I think what's also fascinating, and I wonder if

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Speaker 1: they'll referenced in a future episode. But I remember when

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Speaker 1: she had I think her fifth or sixth baby, When

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Speaker 1: that baby was about three or four months old, she

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Speaker 1: appeared on Instagram with another baby, and no one could

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Speaker 1: really understand what was going on, and then she said,

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Speaker 1: we've adopted this baby. And I think now they're saying

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Speaker 1: it was maybe a surrogate, and of course that's their

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Speaker 1: personal business, but that's a pretty interesting decision in the

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Speaker 1: middle of clearly she's not got fertility problems that we

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Speaker 1: know of, and having all of these babies, which she

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Speaker 1: documents herself carrying and her body snapping back after having

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Speaker 1: each of them, she adopted one when she already had, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm fascinated in wonder.

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Speaker 3: I thought, was there a way to embark on this

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Speaker 3: project as a documentary if this was a documentary similar

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Speaker 3: to the Beckhams.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, a different style, different.

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Speaker 3: Style that could speak to the family, much of the victim.

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Speaker 3: Because it is a tragic, horrible story. I haven't been

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Speaker 3: able to look away from it because I just think

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Speaker 3: how many lives have been touched.

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Speaker 4: Again, to be a little bit fair, Hilaria in particular

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Speaker 4: is very often saying to camera, we're going through a

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Speaker 4: very hard time, Alex's mental health is hanging by a thread,

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Speaker 4: but of course it is nothing compared to that is

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Speaker 4: A many issue is.

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Speaker 3: That the next scene is like Doo Do doin and.

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Speaker 4: Tone is so strange.

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Speaker 1: So if you want to watch the first episodes out,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure where the rest of them are. We

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Speaker 1: found it on bin Chip.

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Speaker 3: After the Break. A story about a facelift went viral

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Speaker 3: on Muma Maya this week, and we want to discuss

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Speaker 3: the exact age women start worrying about aging. Stay with us.

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Speaker 3: My best friends look better than me. I feel betrayed

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Speaker 3: by their tweaks. That's a headline on a story I

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Speaker 3: came across from The Daily Mail this week by Kate Mulvey.

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Speaker 3: She is a woman in her early sixties who describes

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Speaker 3: catching up with friends from her UNI days and discovering

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Speaker 3: that she was the odd one out. She says, I quote,

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Speaker 3: I looked like their mum. Mulvey reflected on the storyline

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Speaker 3: from this season of The White Lotus. The three friends

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Speaker 3: from school to have had tweaks, the third hasn't, and

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Speaker 3: the trio was confronted with the spectacle of aging in

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Speaker 3: this week's episode, What.

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Speaker 6: The actual fuck is this?

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Speaker 5: Place.

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Speaker 1: This is like a bargain hotel for retirees. It kind

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Speaker 1: of seems like that, why would he.

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Speaker 5: Send us here?

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Speaker 4: I got to get the fuck out of here.

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Speaker 3: That was Jacqueline realizing that she had been sent to

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Speaker 3: a hotel full of what she saw to be old people.

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Speaker 3: Add to that a story on Mama Maya this week

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Speaker 3: about a thirty seven year old woman named Kim who

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Speaker 3: recently traveled to Turkey for a facelift. So she noticed

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Speaker 3: what she saw as like excess skin and felt her

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Speaker 3: reflection didn't match how she felt, and so for thirty

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00:19:00,141 --> 00:19:05,542
Speaker 3: thousand dollars she underwent a facelift. Now I was thinking recently,

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Speaker 3: I'm thirty four. Am I doomed to worry or to

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Speaker 3: think about aging until the day I die? And is

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Speaker 3: it starting younger and younger? Because I reckon I've been

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Speaker 3: thinking about the signs of aging since I was twenty eight.

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Speaker 3: And if I live to eighty three, that's a life

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Speaker 3: expectancy of an Australian woman. I will have spent fifty

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Speaker 3: five years concerned about aging. That's most of mine.

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Speaker 4: When you say aging you mean physically physically, I appear

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Speaker 4: it's wise.

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Speaker 3: The word decline it's like you feel. I honestly think

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Speaker 3: that from about twenty eight you're like, am I in decline?

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Speaker 3: And do you ever truly revel in youth?

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Speaker 1: Decline? By whose measure? Well?

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Speaker 3: Everything. It's like physically you start to go, am I

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00:19:46,742 --> 00:19:49,461
Speaker 3: looking older and older? And you start to see your

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Speaker 3: face move more and more and more lines, which you

399
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Speaker 3: are seeing as a culture, the women older than you're raising,

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Speaker 3: so you're hearing bad, bad bad. I also think about

401
00:19:59,141 --> 00:20:02,622
Speaker 3: things though, like memory and energy and all that kind

402
00:20:02,621 --> 00:20:06,461
Speaker 3: of stuff, and the proper importance the important stuff. Longevity

403
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Speaker 3: is the Yeah, Holly, there's no way my ground mother

404
00:20:09,901 --> 00:20:13,302
Speaker 3: or my mother with thinking about aging in their early thirties.

405
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Speaker 3: I know, it's ridiculous. What is going on?

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Speaker 4: Well, one of the things that's going on and MEA

407
00:20:17,942 --> 00:20:19,941
Speaker 4: Friedman called this a while ago when she wrote an

408
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Speaker 4: essay about how aging has apparently become a choice, right,

409
00:20:23,101 --> 00:20:26,661
Speaker 4: because it hasn't really actual aging hasn't become a choice.

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Speaker 4: The years still tick over, our bodies are still aging

411
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Speaker 4: all of those things. But visually, physically, aging on our

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Speaker 4: faces appears like it's become a choice, which is not

413
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Speaker 4: how it used to be. It's a little bit Like

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Speaker 4: we've talked before about how it used to be that

415
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Speaker 4: if a woman didn't have children and she was sort

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Speaker 4: of forty early forties, people would be like, oh, we'll

417
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Speaker 4: stop asking because you know, whereas now that pressure is

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Speaker 4: never off because the technology has evolved, and so it

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00:20:53,942 --> 00:20:57,102
Speaker 4: has with being able to erase the signs of aging. Right,

420
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Speaker 4: So now the barriers to looking eternally young ish are

421
00:21:03,061 --> 00:21:06,901
Speaker 4: only money, time and a sort of discipline and will

422
00:21:07,061 --> 00:21:09,022
Speaker 4: is it important enough to you? Are you going to

423
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Speaker 4: do it? So it seems now that well, you could

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Speaker 4: look young, So why wouldn't you? Because what's interesting is,

425
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Speaker 4: despite all the many advances we've made in lots of

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Speaker 4: areas about how we see women and women's choices in

427
00:21:21,581 --> 00:21:25,101
Speaker 4: women's lives and women's decisions to work well into their

428
00:21:25,222 --> 00:21:27,502
Speaker 4: later years or have kids or not have kids or whatever,

429
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Speaker 4: women getting older is still the scariest thing that any

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Speaker 4: of us can imagine. And if you couple that with

431
00:21:33,022 --> 00:21:35,061
Speaker 4: what we talked about last week, which is that we've

432
00:21:35,101 --> 00:21:37,941
Speaker 4: never looked at ourselves more from an earlier age. Remember

433
00:21:37,982 --> 00:21:40,742
Speaker 4: we talked about mirrors, school kids and mirrors, and how

434
00:21:40,782 --> 00:21:43,941
Speaker 4: my daughter has literally been using her phone as a

435
00:21:43,982 --> 00:21:47,782
Speaker 4: mirror since she got one at twelve. Those things have

436
00:21:47,901 --> 00:21:52,022
Speaker 4: clashed into each other and mean that instead of feeling

437
00:21:52,061 --> 00:21:54,462
Speaker 4: more positive about well, look at all these advances in aging.

438
00:21:54,502 --> 00:21:56,382
Speaker 4: Now you can be forty and you're not considered old.

439
00:21:56,422 --> 00:21:59,141
Speaker 4: It's instead it's like, oh my gosh, I notice every

440
00:21:59,141 --> 00:22:01,421
Speaker 4: little thing, and I should be on it now.

441
00:22:01,381 --> 00:22:03,901
Speaker 3: And you should be trying to reverse it earlier. And

442
00:22:03,942 --> 00:22:06,021
Speaker 3: that's what the faith lift at thirty seven. And there

443
00:22:06,022 --> 00:22:08,461
Speaker 3: are a lot of comments and a lot of readers

444
00:22:08,502 --> 00:22:10,542
Speaker 3: who just went, what on earth are you doing? And

445
00:22:10,581 --> 00:22:13,262
Speaker 3: this Kim who spoke to my Maya was saying, no,

446
00:22:13,381 --> 00:22:15,022
Speaker 3: it's a good thing because if I do it now,

447
00:22:15,061 --> 00:22:17,542
Speaker 3: it's almost preventative. I don't have to get the big

448
00:22:17,581 --> 00:22:20,941
Speaker 3: face lift in my fifties or sixties, I have to

449
00:22:21,262 --> 00:22:21,502
Speaker 3: all ye.

450
00:22:21,942 --> 00:22:22,182
Speaker 6: Yeah.

451
00:22:22,502 --> 00:22:25,701
Speaker 3: So I see it as like being a cog in

452
00:22:25,742 --> 00:22:29,061
Speaker 3: the capitalist machine of the younger you get women, and

453
00:22:29,101 --> 00:22:33,101
Speaker 3: it is majority women. The younger you get them, the

454
00:22:33,141 --> 00:22:35,221
Speaker 3: more tweaks are going to have. You can't tell me

455
00:22:35,222 --> 00:22:37,101
Speaker 3: that someone who's getting the facelift at thirty seven isn't

456
00:22:37,101 --> 00:22:39,382
Speaker 3: geting another one in ten years, another one, another one

457
00:22:39,381 --> 00:22:42,621
Speaker 3: in ten years. And then I think some sort of

458
00:22:42,821 --> 00:22:44,261
Speaker 3: and I don't want to be flippant with the use

459
00:22:44,302 --> 00:22:47,382
Speaker 3: of this word, but some sort of dysmorphia kicks in.

460
00:22:47,861 --> 00:22:51,381
Speaker 3: There's a cultural dysmorphia, which is sometimes I look around

461
00:22:51,462 --> 00:22:54,821
Speaker 3: and go, no one's for it is moving anymore. But

462
00:22:54,861 --> 00:22:57,222
Speaker 3: then there's also in the mirror. If you start getting

463
00:22:57,222 --> 00:23:01,262
Speaker 3: those tweaks, then any signs you start to remove more

464
00:23:01,302 --> 00:23:04,262
Speaker 3: and more, which is you know, we've seen this with celebrities.

465
00:23:04,581 --> 00:23:07,502
Speaker 3: They get a few tweaks, whether it's they want to

466
00:23:07,502 --> 00:23:10,861
Speaker 3: look more youthful, but then can get more and more

467
00:23:10,901 --> 00:23:14,581
Speaker 3: extreme because what you're seeing in the mirror has become

468
00:23:14,621 --> 00:23:15,141
Speaker 3: so skewed.

469
00:23:15,222 --> 00:23:17,581
Speaker 1: Well, it becomes an arms race, doesn't it. And back

470
00:23:17,621 --> 00:23:20,461
Speaker 1: to what you said about when your peer group starts

471
00:23:20,502 --> 00:23:23,421
Speaker 1: to all get it and the age is getting younger

472
00:23:23,422 --> 00:23:26,022
Speaker 1: and younger, it does become an arms race. And it's

473
00:23:26,022 --> 00:23:29,102
Speaker 1: not even just fomo. It's more like I don't.

474
00:23:28,901 --> 00:23:30,662
Speaker 3: Want to be the odd one out. Yeah, and out

475
00:23:30,661 --> 00:23:32,381
Speaker 3: louders have spoken to us about this, because there are

476
00:23:32,422 --> 00:23:34,421
Speaker 3: some out louders who will say, I don't know a

477
00:23:34,502 --> 00:23:36,341
Speaker 3: single person who's had any of it done.

478
00:23:36,381 --> 00:23:37,181
Speaker 4: It's contagious.

479
00:23:37,302 --> 00:23:40,622
Speaker 3: It's totally contagious. It's the same as lifestyle factors. It's

480
00:23:40,621 --> 00:23:43,101
Speaker 3: the same as where your holiday. It's all of those things.

481
00:23:43,581 --> 00:23:46,102
Speaker 3: And then there are other outluders where they will sit

482
00:23:46,141 --> 00:23:48,101
Speaker 3: down at dinner and they've all they all had it.

483
00:23:48,621 --> 00:23:50,742
Speaker 1: What you said about Kim, the woman who got the

484
00:23:50,782 --> 00:23:54,141
Speaker 1: facelift at thirty seven, and she noticed some excess skin

485
00:23:54,222 --> 00:23:57,382
Speaker 1: and she didn't look the way she felt. I think

486
00:23:57,381 --> 00:24:01,222
Speaker 1: that's probably a little naive in that she didn't look

487
00:24:01,341 --> 00:24:04,141
Speaker 1: the way she looked in her phone, and she didn't

488
00:24:04,182 --> 00:24:07,782
Speaker 1: look the way she looked in the filtered photos that

489
00:24:07,901 --> 00:24:09,182
Speaker 1: she posted of herself.

490
00:24:09,542 --> 00:24:12,262
Speaker 3: I thought that, but then in the interview she was

491
00:24:12,262 --> 00:24:15,621
Speaker 3: saying she often shows up on TikTok or Instagram without

492
00:24:15,621 --> 00:24:18,421
Speaker 3: makeup on, like she seemed to have a sense of

493
00:24:18,422 --> 00:24:19,502
Speaker 3: what she really looked like.

494
00:24:19,861 --> 00:24:22,421
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because the other aspect to all of this,

495
00:24:22,462 --> 00:24:25,381
Speaker 1: and you mentioned our mothers and our grandmothers didn't worry

496
00:24:25,422 --> 00:24:28,262
Speaker 1: about aging, or maybe they did, but there was no

497
00:24:28,422 --> 00:24:32,461
Speaker 1: choice and the only thing that was available were like

498
00:24:32,581 --> 00:24:36,501
Speaker 1: creams and a full face lift, which was something that

499
00:24:36,661 --> 00:24:41,302
Speaker 1: old rich people and maybe celebrities got. It was not accessible.

500
00:24:41,341 --> 00:24:43,741
Speaker 1: It was not accessible at all. Now there are so

501
00:24:43,901 --> 00:24:46,461
Speaker 1: many little tweakments that you can get which is the

502
00:24:46,542 --> 00:24:50,101
Speaker 1: on ramp to bigger and bigger procedures. And again with

503
00:24:50,141 --> 00:24:52,421
Speaker 1: the arms race, you start with it and this was

504
00:24:52,422 --> 00:24:54,421
Speaker 1: always my fear of getting botox. You start with a

505
00:24:54,462 --> 00:24:57,222
Speaker 1: little bit and then it's like once you've broken that

506
00:24:58,061 --> 00:25:01,382
Speaker 1: fourth wall. For me, I was like, oh, well, maybe

507
00:25:01,422 --> 00:25:03,101
Speaker 1: I could get a bit more, Maybe I could, you know.

508
00:25:03,222 --> 00:25:05,821
Speaker 1: Suddenly to me it was like, I've I liked being

509
00:25:05,821 --> 00:25:08,262
Speaker 1: able to say I've had nothing, and I've had to

510
00:25:08,302 --> 00:25:12,422
Speaker 1: really watch that in myself, and I've found myself fascinated

511
00:25:12,742 --> 00:25:15,381
Speaker 1: by other women's faces. And what we've also seen is

512
00:25:15,422 --> 00:25:19,341
Speaker 1: this absolute homogenization of women's faces. You looked at the

513
00:25:19,341 --> 00:25:22,022
Speaker 1: oscars and whether it was Mikey Madison or Demi Moore,

514
00:25:22,782 --> 00:25:26,221
Speaker 1: they all look around the same age and that's weird.

515
00:25:26,702 --> 00:25:29,581
Speaker 1: So you know, look, that's how beauty standards change one

516
00:25:29,621 --> 00:25:32,702
Speaker 1: hundred percent. And I think that it takes like an

517
00:25:32,742 --> 00:25:37,621
Speaker 1: Olympic level skills at disassociation from what you look like

518
00:25:38,101 --> 00:25:41,662
Speaker 1: to not feel this pressure or iron clad self confidence

519
00:25:41,702 --> 00:25:43,742
Speaker 1: and self belief which some people have. Right, You've never

520
00:25:43,782 --> 00:25:44,982
Speaker 1: had it, so which is it for you?

521
00:25:45,262 --> 00:25:47,341
Speaker 4: But I struggle with it all the time, and I

522
00:25:47,381 --> 00:25:49,902
Speaker 4: think about it all the time, because there's no question

523
00:25:50,742 --> 00:25:55,141
Speaker 4: that it is confronting seeing your face age, and in

524
00:25:55,222 --> 00:25:58,581
Speaker 4: some ways it's more confronting because as MEA just said that,

525
00:25:58,742 --> 00:26:00,701
Speaker 4: our choices to people are like, why wouldn't you be

526
00:26:00,742 --> 00:26:02,461
Speaker 4: doing that? Why wouldn't you be doing that? Why wouldn't

527
00:26:02,462 --> 00:26:04,542
Speaker 4: be doing that? And I think maybe there used to

528
00:26:04,621 --> 00:26:07,141
Speaker 4: be more of a cultural sense that like beauty in

529
00:26:07,141 --> 00:26:09,902
Speaker 4: inverted commerce was for the young and the old. People

530
00:26:09,942 --> 00:26:12,621
Speaker 4: had other virtues, right, like wisdom and you know, all

531
00:26:12,661 --> 00:26:15,742
Speaker 4: of that kind of stuff, souperation. The idea is long

532
00:26:15,782 --> 00:26:19,101
Speaker 4: gone because now we've extended the time and the pressure

533
00:26:19,141 --> 00:26:22,341
Speaker 4: to be beautiful. Yeah, from the minute you are conscious

534
00:26:22,381 --> 00:26:23,701
Speaker 4: of the face that looks back at you in the

535
00:26:23,742 --> 00:26:26,502
Speaker 4: mirror until the moment you die, there is absolutely no

536
00:26:26,661 --> 00:26:29,581
Speaker 4: excuse for it. Have you let yourself go? Do you

537
00:26:29,621 --> 00:26:33,302
Speaker 4: want people to? And sometimes it's really existential because you

538
00:26:33,422 --> 00:26:35,861
Speaker 4: worry about am I relevant? Am I interesting? Is anything

539
00:26:35,901 --> 00:26:38,502
Speaker 4: I've got to say interesting? If people just think I'm old?

540
00:26:38,821 --> 00:26:41,861
Speaker 4: Because as I say, I think agism has gotten worse,

541
00:26:41,942 --> 00:26:44,821
Speaker 4: not better, in the past decade or so, and I

542
00:26:44,821 --> 00:26:49,221
Speaker 4: think that that's really tricky. I also think about the

543
00:26:49,222 --> 00:26:53,501
Speaker 4: friend groups that what usually happens is the first person

544
00:26:53,502 --> 00:26:55,861
Speaker 4: in the friend group to get some work or whatever

545
00:26:55,861 --> 00:26:57,981
Speaker 4: it is done, you know, like whether it is just

546
00:26:58,502 --> 00:27:00,901
Speaker 4: a bit of a more expensive facial going into maybe

547
00:27:00,901 --> 00:27:03,901
Speaker 4: some injectables, turning into a bit of filler. Whatever is

548
00:27:04,061 --> 00:27:06,542
Speaker 4: usually mocked in the friend group, either quietly or behind

549
00:27:06,542 --> 00:27:10,542
Speaker 4: the back at the beginning, and then a few months

550
00:27:10,542 --> 00:27:16,662
Speaker 4: everybody stopped mocking. That's gone silent, starts going so exactly

551
00:27:16,702 --> 00:27:20,661
Speaker 4: thing you're getting done, because you know, as brutal as

552
00:27:20,661 --> 00:27:22,701
Speaker 4: that headline is from the woman who's like, my friends

553
00:27:22,702 --> 00:27:25,422
Speaker 4: look better than me, that's how you begin to feel

554
00:27:25,462 --> 00:27:27,462
Speaker 4: and you're like, what am I holding out for?

555
00:27:27,621 --> 00:27:29,941
Speaker 3: It's funny. It reminds me of I've seen this thing

556
00:27:29,982 --> 00:27:33,542
Speaker 3: online about blonde dysmorphia, which is that every blonde feels

557
00:27:33,542 --> 00:27:36,341
Speaker 3: like it's not blunt enough. You keep getting blunder and blunder,

558
00:27:36,661 --> 00:27:38,341
Speaker 3: and you get you sit in front of the hairdresser

559
00:27:38,341 --> 00:27:39,661
Speaker 3: and you have white hair, and you're like, I just

560
00:27:39,702 --> 00:27:42,462
Speaker 3: need to be lighter. Your vision sort of changes with it.

561
00:27:42,821 --> 00:27:45,582
Speaker 3: But I think that, you know, people talk about vanity.

562
00:27:45,702 --> 00:27:47,302
Speaker 3: I don't think that the choice whether or not to

563
00:27:47,341 --> 00:27:50,782
Speaker 3: have it is even about vanity or values so much

564
00:27:50,861 --> 00:27:54,461
Speaker 3: necessarily as it is about switching off the noise. I

565
00:27:54,502 --> 00:27:59,222
Speaker 3: think some people are just like I think about these lines,

566
00:27:59,621 --> 00:28:04,101
Speaker 3: this thing, you know, people think like many hours a

567
00:28:04,182 --> 00:28:06,381
Speaker 3: day exactly, and people have it with you know, whether

568
00:28:06,422 --> 00:28:08,581
Speaker 3: it's a mole or a nose job or whatever. It's

569
00:28:08,621 --> 00:28:10,821
Speaker 3: just like, I don't want to think about this anymore.

570
00:28:10,942 --> 00:28:13,021
Speaker 3: I'm sure I could do some psychological work.

571
00:28:13,302 --> 00:28:15,022
Speaker 1: I think about it less since I did it, and

572
00:28:15,061 --> 00:28:17,421
Speaker 1: that's where i'd when I recognize in you, I was

573
00:28:17,462 --> 00:28:20,061
Speaker 1: at my most tortured in the years where I wanted

574
00:28:20,061 --> 00:28:22,421
Speaker 1: to have it, but I felt conflicted about it, and

575
00:28:22,462 --> 00:28:24,181
Speaker 1: I didn't want to want to have it.

576
00:28:24,141 --> 00:28:27,101
Speaker 4: I know, because it's this week. You're so right, Jesse

577
00:28:27,182 --> 00:28:29,061
Speaker 4: about it isn't to do with values. And just to

578
00:28:29,101 --> 00:28:32,022
Speaker 4: be really clear, like I do not have a judgmental

579
00:28:32,022 --> 00:28:34,982
Speaker 4: position on this, I really really don't. I'm just more

580
00:28:35,061 --> 00:28:37,621
Speaker 4: like I want to be the kind of person who

581
00:28:37,621 --> 00:28:38,902
Speaker 4: can accept myself.

582
00:28:39,262 --> 00:28:41,222
Speaker 1: How it turns out, I wanted that too.

583
00:28:41,462 --> 00:28:44,222
Speaker 4: I don't know that I am. How do you prove

584
00:28:44,262 --> 00:28:46,822
Speaker 4: to your boss that you're working. It's a dilemma that

585
00:28:46,862 --> 00:28:49,542
Speaker 4: gen Z have solved for everyone, and it's called task

586
00:28:49,661 --> 00:28:53,302
Speaker 4: masking amid sweeping back to work mandates a new generation

587
00:28:53,422 --> 00:28:56,302
Speaker 4: of figuring out office etiquette for the first time and

588
00:28:56,462 --> 00:28:59,822
Speaker 4: realize that, unlike what you're doing at home, people can

589
00:28:59,862 --> 00:29:04,622
Speaker 4: actually see you when you're at work. Enter task masking,

590
00:29:04,702 --> 00:29:07,022
Speaker 4: which is essentially making sure you look busy at all times.

591
00:29:07,342 --> 00:29:11,382
Speaker 4: Examples include walking moving quickly around the office space with

592
00:29:11,422 --> 00:29:14,902
Speaker 4: a laptop or notebook held tightly to your chest, typing

593
00:29:15,022 --> 00:29:17,661
Speaker 4: loudly and fervently, even when what you're typing has no

594
00:29:17,742 --> 00:29:21,902
Speaker 4: relevance or urgency, and the classic line that George Costanza

595
00:29:21,942 --> 00:29:23,182
Speaker 4: said and Seinfeld, right now.

596
00:29:23,142 --> 00:29:25,462
Speaker 6: I should around pretending that I'm busy. Now you pull

597
00:29:25,542 --> 00:29:25,822
Speaker 6: that off.

598
00:29:26,582 --> 00:29:27,582
Speaker 4: I always look annoyed.

599
00:29:30,062 --> 00:29:31,902
Speaker 3: When you look annoyed all the time, people think that

600
00:29:31,942 --> 00:29:33,741
Speaker 3: you're busy.

601
00:29:34,262 --> 00:29:35,382
Speaker 1: We have that, I know.

602
00:29:35,902 --> 00:29:39,342
Speaker 4: We asked our resident hustle hard girl boss, etc. Gen

603
00:29:39,462 --> 00:29:43,302
Speaker 4: Z friend am Vernon if she's familiar with task masking.

604
00:29:43,702 --> 00:29:46,662
Speaker 2: So I don't task masks because I'm actually genuinely, really

605
00:29:46,702 --> 00:29:49,342
Speaker 2: busy and everybody knows that. But what I have seen

606
00:29:49,422 --> 00:29:52,902
Speaker 2: some people do is that they would slack out of hours,

607
00:29:52,982 --> 00:29:55,862
Speaker 2: and they would slack non urgent messages when we all

608
00:29:55,902 --> 00:29:58,142
Speaker 2: know that you can schedule that message in. So we

609
00:29:58,222 --> 00:30:00,822
Speaker 2: can send during a work appropriate time. We know what

610
00:30:00,822 --> 00:30:03,302
Speaker 2: you're doing. You're task masking, You're not that busy.

611
00:30:04,262 --> 00:30:05,701
Speaker 1: I have fired.

612
00:30:05,822 --> 00:30:09,262
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have so many examples of this. I think

613
00:30:09,661 --> 00:30:11,902
Speaker 3: bad posture makes you look like you're working harder than

614
00:30:11,942 --> 00:30:14,182
Speaker 3: good posture. Anyone who's sitting up too straight.

615
00:30:13,942 --> 00:30:16,062
Speaker 4: I'm like, that's just a justification for hunch.

616
00:30:16,262 --> 00:30:19,421
Speaker 3: Yes it is wrappers on your desk, lunch trappers. Oh yes,

617
00:30:19,622 --> 00:30:22,741
Speaker 3: coffee yeap, dirty cup really really helps in terms of

618
00:30:22,782 --> 00:30:23,582
Speaker 3: that person's busy.

619
00:30:23,661 --> 00:30:26,742
Speaker 1: I think headphones in headphones mess up your hair.

620
00:30:26,982 --> 00:30:28,661
Speaker 3: I think a little bit of messy hair, maybe a

621
00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:29,622
Speaker 3: little bit of smudged eyel.

622
00:30:29,862 --> 00:30:32,022
Speaker 1: So you've just made all of these things up to

623
00:30:32,262 --> 00:30:33,982
Speaker 1: justify looking like a hot mess.

624
00:30:34,062 --> 00:30:37,182
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly right. I really when I see someone

625
00:30:37,661 --> 00:30:39,782
Speaker 3: with a bun on the top of their head, I go.

626
00:30:39,862 --> 00:30:42,142
Speaker 1: Shit, she is so deep.

627
00:30:42,302 --> 00:30:43,182
Speaker 4: That's a busy woman.

628
00:30:43,262 --> 00:30:45,942
Speaker 3: That is a busy woman. She's got to concentrate so much,

629
00:30:45,942 --> 00:30:47,582
Speaker 3: she's got to pull her hair back from her brain.

630
00:30:47,742 --> 00:30:49,342
Speaker 4: Me, you're a boss. Do you ever get fooled by

631
00:30:49,382 --> 00:30:52,022
Speaker 4: task basking all the time, all the time.

632
00:30:52,462 --> 00:30:56,382
Speaker 1: I'm so easily impressed. Schedule a message out of hours

633
00:30:56,422 --> 00:30:57,421
Speaker 1: and I'll be like you.

634
00:30:57,661 --> 00:31:01,022
Speaker 3: Legend Jesse just huffed she must be having a big day.

635
00:31:01,702 --> 00:31:03,862
Speaker 1: After the break. Have you lost your gut instinct? You

636
00:31:03,902 --> 00:31:05,582
Speaker 1: are not alone. We are going to tell you the

637
00:31:05,622 --> 00:31:09,022
Speaker 1: trick to getting it back. In the age of advice on.

638
00:31:09,542 --> 00:31:12,702
Speaker 4: A it out Loud access, we drop episodes every Tuesday

639
00:31:12,742 --> 00:31:16,822
Speaker 4: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

640
00:31:16,822 --> 00:31:18,582
Speaker 4: at the show notes to get us in your ears

641
00:31:18,862 --> 00:31:21,582
Speaker 4: five days a week, and a huge thank you to

642
00:31:21,782 --> 00:31:29,302
Speaker 4: all our current subscribers.

643
00:31:31,022 --> 00:31:33,662
Speaker 1: We're living in the age of being influenced by celebrities,

644
00:31:33,862 --> 00:31:37,421
Speaker 1: people we follow, gurus Megan Sussex. There's never been so

645
00:31:37,542 --> 00:31:41,701
Speaker 1: much advice out there from self proclaimed experts who are

646
00:31:41,742 --> 00:31:44,142
Speaker 1: telling us what to think and what to do, and

647
00:31:44,182 --> 00:31:46,862
Speaker 1: what they think and what they do. They're teaching us

648
00:31:46,862 --> 00:31:49,181
Speaker 1: how to ask for a pay rise, what attachment style

649
00:31:49,222 --> 00:31:52,501
Speaker 1: we have, why we should watch our cortisol levels, and

650
00:31:52,542 --> 00:31:54,702
Speaker 1: whether this season of The White Lotus is a triumph

651
00:31:55,022 --> 00:31:57,822
Speaker 1: We're a bit disappointing. But what is the effect of

652
00:31:57,902 --> 00:31:59,982
Speaker 1: all these opinions and all this advice on our own

653
00:32:00,022 --> 00:32:03,942
Speaker 1: ability to tune into our gun instinct, to know instinctively

654
00:32:04,422 --> 00:32:07,781
Speaker 1: what we think about something or what we think we

655
00:32:07,822 --> 00:32:10,662
Speaker 1: should do. One of the most read articles on Mama

656
00:32:10,742 --> 00:32:13,982
Speaker 1: Maa this week was by Ailish Delaney, who wrote about

657
00:32:14,342 --> 00:32:17,741
Speaker 1: how she fears that having so many people available to

658
00:32:17,822 --> 00:32:20,742
Speaker 1: tell her what to think has made her lose touch

659
00:32:20,942 --> 00:32:24,182
Speaker 1: with her gut. And it's interesting this idea of gut instinct,

660
00:32:24,182 --> 00:32:27,142
Speaker 1: because it can sound a little bit woo woo, but

661
00:32:27,182 --> 00:32:31,342
Speaker 1: it's actually not. According to clinical psychologist Rachel Harker, who

662
00:32:31,382 --> 00:32:34,502
Speaker 1: was quoted in this article, she says that gut instinct

663
00:32:34,542 --> 00:32:39,342
Speaker 1: is essentially our brain processing things really quickly, almost before

664
00:32:39,422 --> 00:32:43,062
Speaker 1: our consciousness catches up or our rational mind catches up.

665
00:32:43,142 --> 00:32:46,702
Speaker 1: And she says that it's basically like a thin slice,

666
00:32:46,822 --> 00:32:51,022
Speaker 1: quick call from all of our past lived experience and

667
00:32:51,142 --> 00:32:56,421
Speaker 1: memories and learned behavior. And it's interesting because Alish writes,

668
00:32:56,462 --> 00:32:58,302
Speaker 1: when something goes wrong in my life, I rushed to

669
00:32:58,342 --> 00:33:00,622
Speaker 1: the group chat for advice. I send the same voice

670
00:33:00,622 --> 00:33:02,862
Speaker 1: note to several friends to get their opinion on how

671
00:33:02,862 --> 00:33:05,422
Speaker 1: a date went. I turned to strangers online to see

672
00:33:05,462 --> 00:33:08,022
Speaker 1: if how I'm feeling as normal. I scroll and scroll

673
00:33:08,102 --> 00:33:11,622
Speaker 1: until the external chatter and my internal anxiety has become

674
00:33:11,742 --> 00:33:14,382
Speaker 1: so loud it leaves me wondering what my gut feeling

675
00:33:14,502 --> 00:33:18,421
Speaker 1: even was in the first place, Jesse, do you trust

676
00:33:18,462 --> 00:33:20,262
Speaker 1: your gut instinct or have you lost touch with it?

677
00:33:20,782 --> 00:33:23,102
Speaker 3: My gut has a mental illness, and this is something

678
00:33:23,102 --> 00:33:25,662
Speaker 3: I've always struggled with. So I think that because I'm

679
00:33:25,702 --> 00:33:29,981
Speaker 3: a anxious person, I have a really complicated relationship with

680
00:33:30,022 --> 00:33:33,461
Speaker 3: my gut because I think it lies to me. I

681
00:33:33,502 --> 00:33:35,822
Speaker 3: have to believe it lies to me. Like I wrote

682
00:33:35,822 --> 00:33:37,502
Speaker 3: a book called something abaud is going to Happen because

683
00:33:37,502 --> 00:33:39,702
Speaker 3: my gut has been telling me that something really, really

684
00:33:39,742 --> 00:33:40,902
Speaker 3: awful is bad to happen.

685
00:33:41,022 --> 00:33:42,941
Speaker 1: Okay, So yes. I used to think when I was

686
00:33:42,942 --> 00:33:45,142
Speaker 1: really scared of flying, I would be like, I've got

687
00:33:45,142 --> 00:33:46,941
Speaker 1: a gut instinct that the plane's going to crash, and

688
00:33:46,942 --> 00:33:49,102
Speaker 1: then it's like, no, sweetie, that's just anxiety.

689
00:33:49,302 --> 00:33:52,742
Speaker 3: Yes, And so I've had a complicated relationship on that end.

690
00:33:53,182 --> 00:33:55,822
Speaker 3: But I think with parenting, people say to you, go

691
00:33:55,902 --> 00:33:57,862
Speaker 3: with your gut. You'll know if something's wrong, you'll know,

692
00:33:57,982 --> 00:33:58,382
Speaker 3: you'll know.

693
00:33:58,342 --> 00:33:58,741
Speaker 1: What to do.

694
00:33:59,422 --> 00:34:02,062
Speaker 3: I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that you

695
00:34:02,142 --> 00:34:04,221
Speaker 3: often feel like taking your child to hospital just to

696
00:34:04,262 --> 00:34:07,022
Speaker 3: get them checked out. But I do think a big

697
00:34:07,062 --> 00:34:10,142
Speaker 3: problem has become there is so much a There is

698
00:34:10,182 --> 00:34:14,781
Speaker 3: so much undermining I make the choice to sort out

699
00:34:14,822 --> 00:34:18,182
Speaker 3: Luna's sleep, and then I go on Instagram and forty

700
00:34:18,221 --> 00:34:21,702
Speaker 3: five experts tell me that I am forever traumatizing my child.

701
00:34:21,942 --> 00:34:25,341
Speaker 3: That's going to undermine my gut instinct, and parenting from

702
00:34:25,382 --> 00:34:29,462
Speaker 3: a place of fear and zero confidence isn't good for anyone.

703
00:34:29,822 --> 00:34:32,502
Speaker 3: So I've had to have moments where I go to

704
00:34:32,542 --> 00:34:35,261
Speaker 3: do something, whether it's to do with it's like you've

705
00:34:35,261 --> 00:34:37,102
Speaker 3: got to let go of maybe what the book would

706
00:34:37,102 --> 00:34:40,262
Speaker 3: tell you to do and go what's my gut telling

707
00:34:40,302 --> 00:34:42,861
Speaker 3: me is the right way to parent my child right now.

708
00:34:42,902 --> 00:34:45,661
Speaker 1: You're very data driven, though, and you like research, So

709
00:34:45,862 --> 00:34:47,942
Speaker 1: how much of it is about going and gathering a

710
00:34:47,942 --> 00:34:51,422
Speaker 1: whole lot of data, thinking about it and then tuning

711
00:34:51,422 --> 00:34:51,981
Speaker 1: into your gut.

712
00:34:52,062 --> 00:34:53,982
Speaker 3: Well, that's the thing. I think. It's the process of

713
00:34:54,022 --> 00:34:58,822
Speaker 3: almost untangling the gut. So the other day I did something,

714
00:34:59,062 --> 00:35:02,582
Speaker 3: a work thing, and my gut instinct afterwards told me

715
00:35:02,982 --> 00:35:05,381
Speaker 3: I'd done a terrible job. I felt sick. I felt

716
00:35:05,382 --> 00:35:07,462
Speaker 3: like it had gone really really wrong, but all the

717
00:35:07,582 --> 00:35:09,821
Speaker 3: data was telling me hadn't gone wrong. And then I

718
00:35:09,862 --> 00:35:12,462
Speaker 3: start to ruminate, and then it'll ruin my week. So

719
00:35:12,822 --> 00:35:14,942
Speaker 3: when I had a moment alone, I sat there and

720
00:35:15,022 --> 00:35:17,182
Speaker 3: I wrote in my notes AP just kind of worked

721
00:35:17,181 --> 00:35:19,982
Speaker 3: out what had happened, where's this gut instinct coming from?

722
00:35:20,582 --> 00:35:23,382
Speaker 3: And I think I was able to unwrap it a

723
00:35:23,382 --> 00:35:25,622
Speaker 3: bit and go, Okay, this is coming from a place

724
00:35:25,661 --> 00:35:29,022
Speaker 3: of insecurity because this thing happened, and then I was

725
00:35:29,062 --> 00:35:30,821
Speaker 3: able to trust it a little bit more. I think

726
00:35:30,862 --> 00:35:35,462
Speaker 3: sometimes these not good beliefs or values can make you

727
00:35:35,502 --> 00:35:36,022
Speaker 3: feel like this.

728
00:35:36,022 --> 00:35:36,821
Speaker 1: Is a worst job.

729
00:35:37,022 --> 00:35:39,421
Speaker 4: I'm similar in that I don't trust my instinct when

730
00:35:39,422 --> 00:35:42,221
Speaker 4: I'm going through a period of shaky confidence, which I

731
00:35:42,342 --> 00:35:46,022
Speaker 4: definitely do. And what I love about Miya one of

732
00:35:46,062 --> 00:35:47,861
Speaker 4: the many things I love about Meya is if I

733
00:35:47,982 --> 00:35:50,661
Speaker 4: walk into MIA's office and I say, what should we

734
00:35:50,701 --> 00:35:54,102
Speaker 4: do about this thing? Mia will say we should do this.

735
00:35:54,622 --> 00:35:54,781
Speaker 1: Right.

736
00:35:55,342 --> 00:35:56,661
Speaker 4: If you come and ask me what should we do

737
00:35:56,701 --> 00:35:58,502
Speaker 4: about this thing? I think different on different days and

738
00:35:58,502 --> 00:36:00,622
Speaker 4: when I had different jobs, I'll probably say, well, we

739
00:36:00,661 --> 00:36:03,582
Speaker 4: could do this or we could do that. Let's have

740
00:36:03,582 --> 00:36:05,582
Speaker 4: a little minute to think about it and work it out.

741
00:36:05,661 --> 00:36:05,861
Speaker 6: Right.

742
00:36:05,982 --> 00:36:10,782
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I always really admire that Mia is tuned

743
00:36:10,822 --> 00:36:13,221
Speaker 4: into her gut in that way. Right, does your gout

744
00:36:13,342 --> 00:36:14,421
Speaker 4: always see right?

745
00:36:14,542 --> 00:36:16,301
Speaker 3: I would say your gut is wrong at times.

746
00:36:16,342 --> 00:36:19,302
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course it is when I think about big times,

747
00:36:19,342 --> 00:36:23,022
Speaker 4: because I second guess my gut a lot often sort

748
00:36:23,022 --> 00:36:24,821
Speaker 4: of go my gut's saying this, but let's wait and

749
00:36:24,822 --> 00:36:26,661
Speaker 4: see a minute to see if it's gonna happen. When

750
00:36:26,701 --> 00:36:28,301
Speaker 4: I have an absolutely you know, I was sadden the

751
00:36:28,342 --> 00:36:31,901
Speaker 4: intro hell yes, fuck no. People say everything in your

752
00:36:31,942 --> 00:36:33,982
Speaker 4: life should either be a hell yes or a fuck no.

753
00:36:34,462 --> 00:36:36,302
Speaker 4: And I think that depends on the type of person

754
00:36:36,342 --> 00:36:38,821
Speaker 4: you are, because some things are very clear and I've

755
00:36:38,862 --> 00:36:41,181
Speaker 4: gone yes, my gut says that is a hell yes,

756
00:36:41,302 --> 00:36:44,222
Speaker 4: and my gut was right. But if I'm wavering between

757
00:36:44,261 --> 00:36:46,821
Speaker 4: those things, how do I get to a hell yes

758
00:36:46,902 --> 00:36:47,301
Speaker 4: or a fuck no?

759
00:36:47,422 --> 00:36:50,622
Speaker 1: Mea free That's so interesting. I think that you both

760
00:36:50,741 --> 00:36:56,582
Speaker 1: have strong gut instincts that are overridden by external factors.

761
00:36:56,622 --> 00:36:58,102
Speaker 1: And I think if we go back to the beginning

762
00:36:58,102 --> 00:36:59,702
Speaker 1: of the show, when we're talking about going to space,

763
00:37:00,102 --> 00:37:01,901
Speaker 1: I am very clear that I will never be going

764
00:37:01,942 --> 00:37:03,142
Speaker 1: to space because I don't want you.

765
00:37:03,221 --> 00:37:05,341
Speaker 3: I'm not going to space, but your gut tells you.

766
00:37:05,382 --> 00:37:07,261
Speaker 1: But then you also said I probably will end up

767
00:37:07,261 --> 00:37:10,902
Speaker 1: going to space because someone will make me whereas that's

768
00:37:10,942 --> 00:37:13,382
Speaker 1: not a consideration for me. I just know it's not

769
00:37:13,422 --> 00:37:18,301
Speaker 1: going to happen. I think that being overly decisive is

770
00:37:18,502 --> 00:37:23,821
Speaker 1: a mask for also just being completely uncomfortable in uncertainty,

771
00:37:24,622 --> 00:37:27,421
Speaker 1: and that's not a good quality. So for me, there

772
00:37:27,422 --> 00:37:31,022
Speaker 1: are times when I just can't stand the not knowing,

773
00:37:31,701 --> 00:37:34,982
Speaker 1: and I will be overly decisive for that reason. And

774
00:37:35,022 --> 00:37:37,382
Speaker 1: you're right, Jesse, I won't always make the right decision.

775
00:37:37,741 --> 00:37:40,622
Speaker 1: But that's not necessarily about my gut instinct. That's just

776
00:37:40,701 --> 00:37:43,741
Speaker 1: about me being able to not existingly.

777
00:37:43,502 --> 00:37:45,582
Speaker 3: Yes, And the reality is that the best choice is

778
00:37:45,622 --> 00:37:48,022
Speaker 3: a choice that you make. And if you have any

779
00:37:48,142 --> 00:37:51,181
Speaker 3: underpinning of perfectionism, which I know that I do, you

780
00:37:51,221 --> 00:37:55,422
Speaker 3: get so totally stuck because you think there's a wrong

781
00:37:55,502 --> 00:37:59,062
Speaker 3: decision and a very right decision. Mia. I think that

782
00:37:59,102 --> 00:38:01,301
Speaker 3: you've got a more practical view of it, which is like,

783
00:38:01,342 --> 00:38:02,542
Speaker 3: there's just a decision and just.

784
00:38:02,542 --> 00:38:03,781
Speaker 1: Get it done, to just get it.

785
00:38:03,902 --> 00:38:05,701
Speaker 4: What do you think so about the article on MoMA

786
00:38:05,781 --> 00:38:08,582
Speaker 4: Maya and the idea that just generally we don't know

787
00:38:08,622 --> 00:38:10,301
Speaker 4: what we think, or what we like or what we

788
00:38:10,342 --> 00:38:12,981
Speaker 4: want anymore because there's too much feedback in the green

789
00:38:13,261 --> 00:38:15,421
Speaker 4: So an example would be do you like that book?

790
00:38:15,502 --> 00:38:17,902
Speaker 4: Or do you like that TV show? Right, so Megan

791
00:38:18,221 --> 00:38:20,462
Speaker 4: for example, or like Severance. We've been talking about the

792
00:38:20,502 --> 00:38:21,181
Speaker 4: show Severance.

793
00:38:21,261 --> 00:38:23,221
Speaker 3: Right, your gun is telling you don't know the.

794
00:38:23,221 --> 00:38:26,181
Speaker 4: Hot show, that smart hot show that everybody likes, and

795
00:38:26,221 --> 00:38:27,901
Speaker 4: so I watched one and I was like, I don't

796
00:38:28,022 --> 00:38:30,622
Speaker 4: like it. But then everybody in the world is telling

797
00:38:30,622 --> 00:38:32,301
Speaker 4: you it's great. So you're like, Okay, I've got I'm

798
00:38:32,342 --> 00:38:34,901
Speaker 4: supposed to like it. So I will make myself like it.

799
00:38:35,022 --> 00:38:36,502
Speaker 4: And that's true of a book or a song or

800
00:38:36,542 --> 00:38:38,982
Speaker 4: a thing, and sometimes you do make yourself like it, right,

801
00:38:39,062 --> 00:38:40,901
Speaker 4: you give it a chance, you make yourself like it.

802
00:38:41,701 --> 00:38:44,741
Speaker 4: If you apply that to people in the zeitgeist, like

803
00:38:44,781 --> 00:38:47,901
Speaker 4: the Megans or whoever, who are very polarizing, always women

804
00:38:47,942 --> 00:38:50,181
Speaker 4: who are polarizing, it's like, do I like it?

805
00:38:50,302 --> 00:38:50,382
Speaker 3: No?

806
00:38:50,862 --> 00:38:52,342
Speaker 4: Why I'm clear.

807
00:38:52,701 --> 00:38:55,462
Speaker 1: I think it's slightly different because I think now that

808
00:38:55,502 --> 00:38:57,062
Speaker 1: we're in the era and have been for a long

809
00:38:57,102 --> 00:38:58,982
Speaker 1: time of hot takes. It used to be that just

810
00:38:59,022 --> 00:39:01,341
Speaker 1: there was the opinion page, and it used to be

811
00:39:01,422 --> 00:39:05,542
Speaker 1: one part of the media consumption that you had. Now

812
00:39:05,902 --> 00:39:08,861
Speaker 1: everything is opinion, like whether it's on Reddit, whether it's

813
00:39:08,902 --> 00:39:12,062
Speaker 1: on social whether it's reviews that you read. We're much

814
00:39:12,102 --> 00:39:15,542
Speaker 1: more likely to read a hundred hot takes about something

815
00:39:16,582 --> 00:39:19,062
Speaker 1: without knowing what that actual thing is, and when that

816
00:39:19,181 --> 00:39:22,261
Speaker 1: goes bad, that's like cancel Culture is an example. You're

817
00:39:22,261 --> 00:39:24,901
Speaker 1: probably going to read the reaction to something, and we're

818
00:39:24,942 --> 00:39:27,821
Speaker 1: always very careful we go back to the source, and

819
00:39:27,862 --> 00:39:30,941
Speaker 1: most people don't. So you probably have read a whole

820
00:39:30,982 --> 00:39:33,501
Speaker 1: lot of things about what people think of Megan's show,

821
00:39:33,622 --> 00:39:36,941
Speaker 1: including us, before you've actually watched it. I think this

822
00:39:37,022 --> 00:39:38,102
Speaker 1: is and I think that can really.

823
00:39:38,062 --> 00:39:40,062
Speaker 4: Take agree with that person.

824
00:39:40,902 --> 00:39:43,462
Speaker 1: No, I just think you're a blank page and everyone

825
00:39:43,622 --> 00:39:48,341
Speaker 1: and you absorb like a sponge, the zeitgeist opinion and

826
00:39:48,382 --> 00:39:50,261
Speaker 1: it might be a person that you particularly admire or

827
00:39:50,302 --> 00:39:53,702
Speaker 1: something else, but that severs you from your gut instinct.

828
00:39:53,822 --> 00:39:56,142
Speaker 3: I think this is checking behavior, and I've had my

829
00:39:56,181 --> 00:39:59,381
Speaker 3: psychologists use that before. I can get a little bit

830
00:39:59,582 --> 00:40:02,422
Speaker 3: socially anxious in some situations, and what I will do is,

831
00:40:02,462 --> 00:40:04,102
Speaker 3: let's say I'm at a dinner in Claire's there and

832
00:40:04,142 --> 00:40:06,102
Speaker 3: we both do it. I'll leave and I'll call Claire

833
00:40:06,102 --> 00:40:07,861
Speaker 3: and I go, was I weird? I feel like I

834
00:40:07,902 --> 00:40:09,982
Speaker 3: was off tonight? Was I did a and it's coming

835
00:40:09,982 --> 00:40:12,301
Speaker 3: from a place of anxiety and kind of like, could

836
00:40:12,302 --> 00:40:14,622
Speaker 3: people see that I was off? And then you're going no, no, no,

837
00:40:14,661 --> 00:40:17,941
Speaker 3: you're fine, You're fine. It's an anxious behavior that makes

838
00:40:17,942 --> 00:40:21,181
Speaker 3: you more anxious because in the checking, you're actually not

839
00:40:21,462 --> 00:40:24,582
Speaker 3: building any confidence or resilience in you go bad state.

840
00:40:24,781 --> 00:40:26,702
Speaker 1: You externalize the checking.

841
00:40:26,822 --> 00:40:28,942
Speaker 3: Yes, so I think that we're addicted to checking.

842
00:40:29,181 --> 00:40:31,422
Speaker 1: It's like they say that with people with OCD that

843
00:40:32,102 --> 00:40:35,221
Speaker 1: one of the things if you've got any anxiety, or

844
00:40:35,302 --> 00:40:37,582
Speaker 1: if you always want to get tests to rule out this,

845
00:40:37,741 --> 00:40:39,741
Speaker 1: you can get addicted to that retro y mia.

846
00:40:39,822 --> 00:40:42,341
Speaker 4: Do you have a way to help us connect better

847
00:40:42,422 --> 00:40:44,782
Speaker 4: with our gut when we're getting lost in this checking

848
00:40:44,781 --> 00:40:45,901
Speaker 4: behavior or sex?

849
00:40:46,022 --> 00:40:48,942
Speaker 1: I do, And a friend taught me this about thirty

850
00:40:49,022 --> 00:40:52,262
Speaker 1: years ago when I was offered the editorship of Cosmo

851
00:40:52,342 --> 00:40:54,582
Speaker 1: and I had been planning to move overseas and live

852
00:40:54,582 --> 00:40:57,741
Speaker 1: in New York and freelance, and I was really paralyzed.

853
00:40:57,741 --> 00:40:59,542
Speaker 1: I didn't know i'd actually already turned it down, but

854
00:40:59,582 --> 00:41:01,741
Speaker 1: I was second guessing that decision. I didn't know what

855
00:41:01,822 --> 00:41:03,861
Speaker 1: to do. I always do this, and I give this

856
00:41:03,862 --> 00:41:08,901
Speaker 1: advice to other people. Imagine you are definitely taking that

857
00:41:09,022 --> 00:41:12,661
Speaker 1: job or breaking up with that guy or doing that thing.

858
00:41:12,741 --> 00:41:16,622
Speaker 1: Imagine you definitely are quick what feelings come up? How

859
00:41:16,622 --> 00:41:19,142
Speaker 1: do you feel? And you've got to answer quickly because

860
00:41:19,181 --> 00:41:22,582
Speaker 1: it's got to be like relieved or scared or sick.

861
00:41:23,022 --> 00:41:25,781
Speaker 1: And then you say, okay, now, imagine you're definitely not

862
00:41:25,862 --> 00:41:28,342
Speaker 1: taking it. It's just you've said no, it's not happening.

863
00:41:28,382 --> 00:41:33,462
Speaker 1: You're moving to New York. How do you feel? Excited, exhilarated, nervous?

864
00:41:33,502 --> 00:41:36,422
Speaker 1: And it's a great way at cutting through your head

865
00:41:37,022 --> 00:41:39,301
Speaker 1: and to your heart or your gut. And for me,

866
00:41:39,422 --> 00:41:41,582
Speaker 1: what I learned about that is that the thought of

867
00:41:41,741 --> 00:41:45,422
Speaker 1: taking the job made me feel nervous but excited. The

868
00:41:45,462 --> 00:41:47,342
Speaker 1: thought of not taking the job made me feel like

869
00:41:47,382 --> 00:41:49,901
Speaker 1: I'd stopped running before the finish line, but a little

870
00:41:49,902 --> 00:41:52,781
Speaker 1: bit relieved because there was less pressure. So it was

871
00:41:52,902 --> 00:41:54,142
Speaker 1: and that time I knew it was the right thing

872
00:41:54,181 --> 00:41:54,821
Speaker 1: to take the job.

873
00:41:55,221 --> 00:41:57,502
Speaker 4: Okay, my gut tells me the show is finished, and

874
00:41:57,701 --> 00:42:00,741
Speaker 4: a big thank you. Be sure, yeah, because my gut's

875
00:42:00,781 --> 00:42:02,422
Speaker 4: telling me that the outlouders are like okay, I've got

876
00:42:02,462 --> 00:42:05,261
Speaker 4: to go now, like.

877
00:42:05,542 --> 00:42:07,181
Speaker 1: Shut up, We've got to work out what we think

878
00:42:07,221 --> 00:42:08,901
Speaker 1: about the ball rooms exactly.

879
00:42:09,822 --> 00:42:13,382
Speaker 4: Thank you out louders for being here with us today

880
00:42:13,502 --> 00:42:15,942
Speaker 4: as always, added to our fabulous team for helping us

881
00:42:15,942 --> 00:42:17,301
Speaker 4: put it together. We're going to be back in your

882
00:42:17,302 --> 00:42:18,062
Speaker 4: ears tomorrow.

883
00:42:18,142 --> 00:42:18,701
Speaker 1: Bye.

884
00:42:18,741 --> 00:42:20,741
Speaker 3: If you are looking for something else to listen to,

885
00:42:20,982 --> 00:42:27,542
Speaker 3: not bye. We did a very juicy ask Me Anything

886
00:42:27,942 --> 00:42:30,142
Speaker 3: episode and it was a little bit different because what

887
00:42:30,142 --> 00:42:32,102
Speaker 3: we did was we actually had a bunch of questions

888
00:42:32,102 --> 00:42:35,341
Speaker 3: about particular news stories and angles that had come up

889
00:42:35,382 --> 00:42:37,622
Speaker 3: that maybe we hadn't discussed on the show. For example,

890
00:42:37,862 --> 00:42:40,901
Speaker 3: the Marty sheer Gold Matilda's controversy from the other week.

891
00:42:41,142 --> 00:42:42,502
Speaker 1: Heep, you wanted to know what it was like on

892
00:42:42,542 --> 00:42:44,781
Speaker 1: red carpets, Yeah, big Awards shows.

893
00:42:44,822 --> 00:42:47,781
Speaker 3: It was really fun. So we will pop a link

894
00:42:47,822 --> 00:42:48,582
Speaker 3: in the show notes.

895
00:42:48,781 --> 00:42:51,662
Speaker 4: Now we can say bye, Maya bye, bye, bye, bye

896
00:42:51,982 --> 00:42:53,502
Speaker 4: see ya. Shout out to.

897
00:42:53,582 --> 00:42:55,582
Speaker 1: Any Muma Miya subscribers listening.

898
00:42:55,741 --> 00:42:56,502
Speaker 4: If you love the.

899
00:42:56,502 --> 00:42:59,382
Speaker 1: Show and want to support us as well, subscribing to

900
00:42:59,422 --> 00:43:01,622
Speaker 1: Mom and Miya is the very best way to do so.

901
00:43:01,741 --> 00:43:03,701
Speaker 1: There is a link in the episode description