Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
Speaker 2: to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
Speaker 2: continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
Speaker 2: been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 3: I'm Cassena Lukic and this is diary of a birth.
Speaker 3: Biology is a cruel thing. Men can have children well
Speaker 3: into their eighties. I'm looking at you, al Pacino, and
Speaker 3: women are considered geriatric if they fall pregnant after thirty five. Fortunately,
Speaker 3: if becoming a mother is something a woman wants and
Speaker 3: age or health concerns are a factor, there are options
Speaker 3: from egg freezing to sperm donors. Today's mum always wanted
Speaker 3: to have children and decided that sperm donation was her path.
Speaker 4: I would like, you know this color hair, and you
Speaker 4: know this height, and you sort of nearly putting together
Speaker 4: a recipe of what you're perfect man would be. And
Speaker 4: I always said that I would pick a donor based on,
Speaker 4: you know, his character and profile of someone who I
Speaker 4: would want to be with.
Speaker 3: But unlike every sitcom in the mid two thousands, This
Speaker 3: wasn't an easy journey, battling multiple setbacks, she was able
Speaker 3: to give birth to her perfect son. Oh and she
Speaker 3: helped deliver him via C section. So let's meet today's mum.
Speaker 1: Hi, this is Brevarra Lucas and this is the story
Speaker 1: of my birth with Oscar.
Speaker 5: So, Bree, can you tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: what life was like for you before you had Oscar?
Speaker 1: That was quite hectic.
Speaker 4: I was pretty much a work aholic, and obviously family
Speaker 4: and friends also came first. They were a priority for me.
Speaker 4: But I was always someone who would do for others
Speaker 4: and always put myself last. So for me, I found
Speaker 4: one of my acts of love, and my love language
Speaker 4: is acts of service. So helping my girlfriends raise their
Speaker 4: kids and you know, being an auntie, you know, that
Speaker 4: was a joy of my life. But predominantly it was
Speaker 4: just being a corporate executive in the retail world and
Speaker 4: climbing the HR ladder.
Speaker 5: You decided at thirty eight that it was time that
Speaker 5: you were going to have a child. Yeah, despite not
Speaker 5: having a partner, you wanted a child.
Speaker 4: Yeah, correct, So I've always wanted to be a mom
Speaker 4: ever since I was born. And I said to myself
Speaker 4: that if it got to the time in my late
Speaker 4: thirties that I wasn't partnered up, that it would be
Speaker 4: something that I would do myself. Got to thirty eight
Speaker 4: and took the leap and started the journey with Melbourne IVF.
Speaker 5: What was it like approaching friends family when you said
Speaker 5: that you wanted to be a single mother.
Speaker 4: I didn't have any anxieties or worry about it. I
Speaker 4: was so set and confident in what I was wanting
Speaker 4: to do because all my loved ones and even you know,
Speaker 4: work colleagues and things like that, they knew in getting
Speaker 4: to know me and conversations. I'm an open book that
Speaker 4: how much I wanted to be a mum. You know,
Speaker 4: they were the ones who also encouraged it, even if
Speaker 4: I started to doubt myself at times, Where.
Speaker 5: Did you start? You know, you knew you wanted to
Speaker 5: be a mum, but you had to figure out how
Speaker 5: to do this by yourself.
Speaker 4: I'm very blessed that my godmother and Auntie is a
Speaker 4: professor and she was one of the female pioneers of
Speaker 4: frozen embryos in the nineteen eighties for Monash, so I
Speaker 4: had a lot of conversations with her around what procedures
Speaker 4: entail and things like that. So I feel very lucky
Speaker 4: that I had that free advice and support. And then
Speaker 4: I started researching. I wanted a female doctor. There's amazing
Speaker 4: male doctors out there as well, but I was specific
Speaker 4: that I wanted a female doctor to pioneer my journey
Speaker 4: with me, and started looking and made the decision based
Speaker 4: on my research to go with doctor Raliolu. It just
Speaker 4: felt very full circle that, you know, she's such a
Speaker 4: inspiration in my life and you know, my second mum
Speaker 4: really and the fact that without her achievements and her
Speaker 4: success with frozen embryos, I wouldn't be able to go
Speaker 4: through this process.
Speaker 5: So you started with an IUI in Melbourne. Yeah, can
Speaker 5: you tell us about that beginning process.
Speaker 4: You have to register for the Victorian Sperm Bank and
Speaker 4: then you go on a waiting list for when you're
Speaker 4: able to access the donor information.
Speaker 1: I waited three months.
Speaker 4: Once I was able to gain access, that's when I
Speaker 4: chose a donor through that registry, and there wasn't many
Speaker 4: to choose from, so I just picked the best of
Speaker 4: what was on there. And then what had happened was
Speaker 4: had to go and see my doctor and her amazing
Speaker 4: stuff get medication, so there was injections, there was tablets,
Speaker 4: changes in diets. I also worked with amazing natural path
Speaker 4: as well because I love Eastern medicine. Then went into
Speaker 4: East Melbourne and I wanted to do it by myself
Speaker 4: because this is something I wanted to achieve. Went in
Speaker 4: there and it's the proverbial turkey based method, you know,
Speaker 4: because you had to make sure that I was producing
Speaker 4: enough eggs and things like that. And when I got
Speaker 4: the go ahead, went into East Melbourne with my pineapple
Speaker 4: socks on, had the procedure and was out within twenty minutes,
Speaker 4: and I went and got my McDonald's fries on the
Speaker 4: way home for good luck and just hoped for the best.
Speaker 4: But unfortunately I had two failed iuis and a canceled
Speaker 4: one as I ovulated throughout the side.
Speaker 5: But you kind of knew that if the IUI failed
Speaker 5: that the next step was going to be IVF.
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 5: How does that differ in terms of a sperm donor.
Speaker 4: My journey was slightly different as my doctor moved away
Speaker 4: from Melbourne IVF over to Life Fertility at that time
Speaker 4: and I chose to go with her. So when it
Speaker 4: came to the donors because if you fail with a donor,
Speaker 4: it's deemed that you're not a good match, so you
Speaker 4: need to go and turn around and pick another donor
Speaker 4: for your iuis with moving over to IVF and Life Fertility,
Speaker 4: Doctor Lou let me know that they're only starting up
Speaker 4: Life Fertility in Victoria, but it was well established in Queensland.
Speaker 4: A workaround was that she would work with the amazing
Speaker 4: medical director up in Queensland. If I was prepared to
Speaker 4: get on a plane and go up there, they would
Speaker 4: both work in conjunction and allow me to go through
Speaker 4: IVF through the Queensland system. And one thing that was
Speaker 4: fantastic was that in Queensland Life Fertility they've got access
Speaker 4: to the Seattle spam Bank, which is thousands of donors.
Speaker 5: So is it like in the movies when it's you know,
Speaker 5: a checklist you can kind of scroll through the different way.
Speaker 4: It is like you go in there and it's sort
Speaker 4: of like you feel like you're nearly picking a pair
Speaker 4: of pants or something. You're sort of like, I would
Speaker 4: like you know this color hair, and you know this height,
Speaker 4: and you sort of nearly putting together a recipe of
Speaker 4: what you're perfect man would be And I always said
Speaker 4: that I would pick a donor based on, you know,
Speaker 4: his character and profile of someone who I would want
Speaker 4: to be with. And it actually didn't take me too long.
Speaker 4: I was on a work trip. It was before I
Speaker 4: was going out with my boss to have dinner for
Speaker 4: the end of our day, and I was sitting in
Speaker 4: my hotel room in Queensland. Again Queensland makes a mention
Speaker 4: there and just went through when this one don't stuck
Speaker 4: out to me and I just made my decision.
Speaker 5: Okay, so you get the sperm and then you go
Speaker 5: through the IVF procedure. How many embryos were you left
Speaker 5: with at the end of that.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately I don't have any MBOs left, so I retrieved
Speaker 4: nine eggs. Out of that nine, seven took to fertilization.
Speaker 4: Out of that seven, I then had four that made
Speaker 4: it to day three blasticyst By day five, which is
Speaker 4: you're safe bet of an embryo, I had one perfect
Speaker 4: embryo and that's all I needed, So all my prayers
Speaker 4: to the universe were based on that one beautiful embryo.
Speaker 5: That's a lot of pressure to put on not only you,
Speaker 5: but the team around you, so you do the implantation
Speaker 5: and then you've got that agonizing ten day weight.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I knew I was pregnant the next day. I just
Speaker 4: knew it in my body. I took my mum with
Speaker 4: me up for a girl's trip and went at the.
Speaker 1: Time with my godmother as well.
Speaker 4: Afterwards, and we were staying on the Gold Coast and
Speaker 4: mom and I were sharing a hotel room and I
Speaker 4: woke up the next morning and I looked at myself
Speaker 4: in the mirror and I just said to my mom, Mom,
Speaker 4: I looked different, Because what do you mean, I said,
Speaker 4: I just looked different. I can't explain that I looked different.
Speaker 4: Had breakfast, went to a Pacific fair, and with an
Speaker 4: hour I was starving and it was croissants, and I
Speaker 4: had croissants all the way through. My pregnancy is one
Speaker 4: of my cravings.
Speaker 5: So can you tell me about sharing the news that
Speaker 5: you were pregnant with friends and family.
Speaker 4: I actually had a picture of the embryo on my
Speaker 4: phone when Life Fertility would ring me just sending out
Speaker 4: some good judou into the universe. And I was on
Speaker 4: my way to my best friend's house for Melbourne Cup
Speaker 4: day one of the beautiful women from Life Fertility in
Speaker 4: Brisbane rang and I could just hear it in her
Speaker 4: voice because it was so different to when I received
Speaker 4: the calls regarding iui's and I.
Speaker 1: Was just beside myself.
Speaker 4: I just knew it in my body that I was
Speaker 4: And I got to my best friend's house and the
Speaker 4: first thing I did was I got out and I
Speaker 4: just screamed to her that I was pregnant. And I
Speaker 4: spent the next hour ringing family and friends and they
Speaker 4: were just crying and so excited.
Speaker 1: So it was one of the best days of my life.
Speaker 5: What was your pregnancy like?
Speaker 1: I had a.
Speaker 4: Very smooth pregnancy, no complications or anything like that, you know,
Speaker 4: your typical nausea, had a very healthy, growing baby boy.
Speaker 4: Found out that I was having a baby boy at
Speaker 4: about I think it was thirteen fourteen.
Speaker 1: Weeks it was.
Speaker 4: He was an extremely active baby, and I loved that.
Speaker 4: There wasn't a day that I didn't feel him, and
Speaker 4: I started feeling him pretty early on.
Speaker 5: Over thirty five is classed as a geriatric pregnancy, which
Speaker 5: is just a horrible, horrible phrase. But I know that
Speaker 5: you mentioned to me that there was some advice on
Speaker 5: what your birth plan might look like.
Speaker 1: When I met with my obstetrician, who is just an
Speaker 1: angel on her she asked me what my birth plan
Speaker 1: was and I said I didn't have one, and she
Speaker 1: couldn't have been more happier because she says, your birth
Speaker 1: plan never goes to plan. I've learnt through my girlfriends.
Speaker 4: But she did say, you know, you are deemed as
Speaker 4: a geriatric pregnancy being an IVF baby as well, there
Speaker 4: can be complications with any kind of delivery. So part
Speaker 4: of that was having a really open conversation around, you know,
Speaker 4: vaginal delivery versus C section, and she was very open
Speaker 4: and honest with me, which I appreciated. The two things
Speaker 4: that I wanted more than anything was I just wanted
Speaker 4: my baby.
Speaker 1: To be safe and me to be safe. And that
Speaker 1: was it. And I said, otherwise, I'm in your hands.
Speaker 5: You did decide to go ahead with a C.
Speaker 1: Section, I did.
Speaker 4: We worked out dates and things like that. The ironies,
Speaker 4: I ended up picking the fourth of July as Oscar's birthday,
Speaker 4: and then she looked at me and she goes, oh
Speaker 4: my god, and I said, what's that and she goes,
Speaker 4: but your sperm done as American. So it just all
Speaker 4: sort of seems to fit in.
Speaker 1: And I just said, it's meant to be coming up.
Speaker 4: So I pulled him out and straight on to me,
Speaker 4: and it's the best scene in the world. About two
Speaker 4: or three weeks after I decided on the sea section,
Speaker 4: I went and had an ultrasound and obstetrician turned around
Speaker 4: to me and she said, oh, I want to offer
Speaker 4: you something you know, based on your journey and how
Speaker 4: you know much. You've wanted to do this all by yourself,
Speaker 4: and you've been doing it without conviction and things like that,
Speaker 4: we can offer a mac sea section.
Speaker 1: I'd never heard of this before. I asked her about it.
Speaker 4: It's called a maternal assistant sea section, and she said,
Speaker 4: what's the most beautiful part of this. It's like a
Speaker 4: normal sea section.
Speaker 1: You go in. One thing that's different is you scrubbing
Speaker 1: like a.
Speaker 4: Doctor, which I thought was pretty cool because I always
Speaker 4: pretend I'm a doctor after all those grays Anatomy episodes.
Speaker 1: She said, you actually get to deliver your baby.
Speaker 5: Your baby out.
Speaker 1: I did.
Speaker 4: I pulled him out, but I didn't see anything because
Speaker 4: your belly is so huge at that time. When you're
Speaker 4: laying down, you still have the screen up I can
Speaker 4: remember very vividly. As soon as she cut, you know,
Speaker 4: all of the layers open, his hand came up and
Speaker 4: she goes, oh my god, God, he's ready to come out.
Speaker 4: And I knew that morning he was ready to come
Speaker 4: out because he was moving very, very differently. So what
Speaker 4: happens is is the doctor gets the baby out up
Speaker 4: to his shoulders so you know, head, shoulders and arms out,
Speaker 4: and then the doctor's guy draw arms down to the
Speaker 4: armpit you're able.
Speaker 1: To pull him out.
Speaker 4: So I pulled him out and straight onto me, and
Speaker 4: it's the best scene in the world.
Speaker 5: Do they pull the placenter out at the same time
Speaker 5: with us either.
Speaker 1: So after Oscar had been pulled out, like while I'm
Speaker 1: being distracted with him being on me, then I think
Speaker 1: the placenta came out.
Speaker 4: But I didn't even know what had come out. I
Speaker 4: just saw a photo afterwards of it. So I had
Speaker 4: no idea because my world was being put on my chest.
Speaker 5: So well, so he's put straight onto your chest. Who
Speaker 5: do you have with you?
Speaker 1: I have my mom in the room with me, and
Speaker 1: is she.
Speaker 5: Am assuming absolutely blown away to see her grandson.
Speaker 4: Absolutely? She just and she was being told sit on
Speaker 4: your hands. You're not allowed to touch them because you know,
Speaker 4: we're all sanitary and things like that. So she just
Speaker 4: said it was one of the most awe inspiring things
Speaker 4: to not only watch her grandson and her first grandchild
Speaker 4: be born, but to watch her daughter deliver her grandson.
Speaker 4: And she knew how much I wanted to be a mum. So, yeah,
Speaker 4: there's beautiful photos of you know, mum in the room
Speaker 4: and her reaction, which I'm glad the photographer was able
Speaker 4: to capture.
Speaker 5: And how is he when he came out? He was healthy, happy.
Speaker 4: He was such a beautiful, healthy boy, three point four
Speaker 4: seven kilograms, He was forty nine centimeters, had a good
Speaker 4: head on him as well. Yeah, he's saturationally, I've all
Speaker 4: started to decline a little bit, but that apparently is
Speaker 4: quite natural for a C section baby. So he had
Speaker 4: to go up into the special care nursery overnight. But
Speaker 4: I was okay with that because I knew I was
Speaker 4: in good hands.
Speaker 1: But I was absolutely so grateful.
Speaker 4: I've never been more grateful in my life to have
Speaker 4: such a healthy baby in my arms, because I know
Speaker 4: that a lot of other people aren't as lucky.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and how is your recovery? From the sea section.
Speaker 1: My recovery was pretty good.
Speaker 4: I've always been quite an athletic person, and I feel
Speaker 4: a lot of the spiritual and naturopathic ways that I
Speaker 4: included them into my journey of you know, pre pregnancy
Speaker 4: and pregnancy. I think that put me in really good
Speaker 4: steed of recovery. So I was in hospital for five days,
Speaker 4: came home and yeah, I had no complications, you know,
Speaker 4: rest as much as I could.
Speaker 1: But other than that was.
Speaker 4: Sort of after about three or four weeks, I sort
Speaker 4: of looked at myself and go, I can't believe that,
Speaker 4: you know, I've had this major surgery, because it's just
Speaker 4: it ends up all being all about your baby.
Speaker 5: When he's older. Yes, is he able to reach out
Speaker 5: to his biological father? Is that something that is part
Speaker 5: I don't know how the process.
Speaker 1: Works, but part of the donor process.
Speaker 4: And it does differ slightly between Australia and America because
Speaker 4: in Australia you can't be paid to be a sperm donor,
Speaker 4: whereas in America you can. And that's why they've got
Speaker 4: thousands and thousands of donors. They can opt into being
Speaker 4: contacted once a baby comes of legal age.
Speaker 1: And that was also something that was important to me.
Speaker 4: It's I know other people that have gone down the
Speaker 4: donor route that have said no, I'm not interested. I
Speaker 4: wanted to Oskar to have that opportunity to know where
Speaker 4: he's come from. If he doesn't want to take it,
Speaker 4: that's fine because Andrew's his dad. But if he wants
Speaker 4: to know, because he might end up looking like the
Speaker 4: donor is the splitting image of my brother, mind you,
Speaker 4: but he might end up looking like the donor or
Speaker 4: there might be some things that he's you know, he's
Speaker 4: not like me and wants to find out about. Yeah,
Speaker 4: the donor has been fabulous and that was a big
Speaker 4: part of why I chose him, that he opted in
Speaker 4: to say, yeah, he's open to being contacted.
Speaker 5: So you went from you and your pup and a
Speaker 5: busy life to a massive family almost within a year.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 5: Yeah, How did Andrew feel kind of like becoming a dad?
Speaker 1: He was estatic, he was so happy.
Speaker 4: He and I have been best friends since I was
Speaker 4: about sixteen seventeen, and you know, his sister is one
Speaker 4: of my beautiful beast friends and we've always stayed connected.
Speaker 4: I say to Peopaul that Oscar was the angel I've
Speaker 4: been praying to the universe four for so long, and
Speaker 4: ever since I got pregnant with him, my whole world
Speaker 4: feels like it's just falling into place.
Speaker 5: Do you have any advice for other women thinking about
Speaker 5: becoming single mothers or going down the Areui journey.
Speaker 4: The biggest advice is to be don't let anyone hinder
Speaker 4: something that you know is meant for you. If you
Speaker 4: know having a baby is meant for you, there is
Speaker 4: so much support out there. I actually started by joining
Speaker 4: Single Mothers by Choice group on Facebook and would watch
Speaker 4: other people's stories and be encouraged by that. And I'd
Speaker 4: be really sad and buy people's stories where they didn't
Speaker 4: have family support. But what was amazing was this group
Speaker 4: would rally around that person and they'd connect with people.
Speaker 4: So there is such a vast amount of support networks
Speaker 4: in Victoria and the other states as well international.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of research. You know.
Speaker 4: The biggest thing is is know what you want and
Speaker 4: don't be deterred from that. And I encourage everyone to
Speaker 4: shop around for your doctors if that's what you need
Speaker 4: to do. You know, at the end of the day,
Speaker 4: it's going to be a hard journey emotionally and physically,
Speaker 4: you know, having to do thousands of injections and take
Speaker 4: hundreds of tablets and things like that can be all consuming.
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, the end result
Speaker 4: of your little baby, it's all worth it.
Speaker 5: And what about the maternal assistancy section. Would you recommend
Speaker 5: that to people?
Speaker 1: Oh? I absolutely would.
Speaker 4: You can't see anything anyway, so even if you are
Speaker 4: a bit squeamish, you don't really see anything. And it's
Speaker 4: not like you can sort of bend your belly down
Speaker 4: like they keep you very strictly.
Speaker 1: Behind your curtain.
Speaker 4: I just felt that if I wasn't going to give
Speaker 4: birth vaginally, you know where you feel like you have
Speaker 4: in society delivered your baby, you know, which I absolutely
Speaker 4: hate as well. Like my girlfriend and I we sit
Speaker 4: there and we go, you know, our babies have come
Speaker 4: out through the sun roof, but that's still a delivery.
Speaker 4: And have a doctor cut through seven layers to bring
Speaker 4: your baby out is amazing. If you can in your
Speaker 4: self get involved and have that empowerment of actually delivering
Speaker 4: your baby out of you into the world, I say,
Speaker 4: go for it. You know, speak to your doctor if
Speaker 4: they do it. It's something I'll never regret.
Speaker 3: We're very lucky here at Diary of a Birth to
Speaker 3: have some excellent experts to help answer all your medical questions,
Speaker 3: and this week we have hosts of the Kick Pregnancy
Speaker 3: podcast and resident Oppetition and gynecologist doctor Pat. My first
Speaker 3: question was, how does a maternal assistant C section work?
Speaker 6: A max C section is a maternal assistant caesarian section,
Speaker 6: and it's a fantastic development that's come along in relatively
Speaker 6: recent years where we know that it's safe and sometimes
Speaker 6: just wonderfully successful and restorative if the woman can take
Speaker 6: a part in her own in section. So what we
Speaker 6: do once the woman's got her spinal anesthetic in place
Speaker 6: is wash the woman's hands, put on some long surgical
Speaker 6: gloves and a gown, and then once we start the
Speaker 6: caesarean section and we move the head just up into
Speaker 6: the opening of the skin, then the woman can bring
Speaker 6: her surgically clean hands down and assist in the delivery
Speaker 6: of the baby up out of her tummy and into
Speaker 6: her own hands. And for people who are having a
Speaker 6: caesarean section and that wasn't their dream, you know, they're
Speaker 6: having it for good medical reasons, but they're not thrilled
Speaker 6: about it. Then this can be a beautiful experience and
Speaker 6: a restorative experience. It can be hard to organize in
Speaker 6: the emergency sea section space. We often call sea sections
Speaker 6: emergencies to distinguish them from sea sections that are planned
Speaker 6: and organized in advance. And not every emergency caesar is
Speaker 6: a what I call our lights and sirens emergency and
Speaker 6: our time critical emergency. Certainly the time critical ones that
Speaker 6: where we think that baby needs to come out very fast,
Speaker 6: then what you want is an obstitution with the skills
Speaker 6: to get that baby out very fast, and the maternalistist
Speaker 6: would not be appropriate in that setting. But a lot
Speaker 6: of these seasons that we're talking about are planned months
Speaker 6: in events for somebody who understands that that is the
Speaker 6: safest or most satisfactory way to have their baby. And
Speaker 6: there's plenty of time to get the hospital and the
Speaker 6: anethetist on board and the woman well prepared to have
Speaker 6: this experience.
Speaker 3: And what are some of the complexities of having a
Speaker 3: sperm donor.
Speaker 6: I think the comment I can make is that if
Speaker 6: we are in need of a sperm donor, and we
Speaker 6: get that sperm donor through a legitimate pathway, such as
Speaker 6: a registered IVF provider or fertility clinic. Then we're going
Speaker 6: to get some things like impulsory counseling on the process,
Speaker 6: which is not optional, it's really compulsory. We're going to
Speaker 6: get some information about the general health, family history, and
Speaker 6: genetic background of our donor, and we're going to get
Speaker 6: a sperm sample that is free of infection. Those things
Speaker 6: do not apply in some of the off the books
Speaker 6: ways of getting donor sperm, such as through informal arrangements
Speaker 6: or a friend or other ways that sometimes people in
Speaker 6: need of a sperm donor come by it.
Speaker 3: Diaryver Birth was hosted by me Cassennu Lukitch, with expert
Speaker 3: input from doctor Pat. You can hear more from him
Speaker 3: on the Kick or grow myobaby dot com. Details are
Speaker 3: in the show notes. This episode was produced by Tina
Speaker 3: Mattalov and myself Cassennu Lukitsch, with audio production by Leoporges