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Speaker 1: This episode contains discussions of child sexual abuse. Please take

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Speaker 1: care while listening. It's a typical Sunday morning in October

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen at the Millthorpe family home in Aubury.

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Speaker 2: New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: Michelle is roused awake by her five year old daughter Rose,

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Speaker 1: who desperately wants to tell her something that's something will

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Speaker 1: change the family's lives forever. In that moment, Rose discloses

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Speaker 1: a shocking incident of sexual assault. She says happened at

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Speaker 1: the hands of a family friend. As her mum struggles

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Speaker 1: to get her head around what her little girl has

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Speaker 1: just told her, Rose asks another question, Mum, can I

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Speaker 1: watch TV now?

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Speaker 2: Of course?

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Speaker 1: Left alone, Michelle is in a state of shock. She

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Speaker 1: can't speak. She vomits while trying to tell her husband

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Speaker 1: Rose wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. She sits

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Speaker 1: down on her eight year old daughter, Pipper's bed and

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Speaker 1: gently asks about Rose's disclosure. Michelle can feel the bile returning.

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Speaker 1: It's been happening to both girls for years. For Michelle,

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Speaker 1: she will remember today as the worst of her life,

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Speaker 1: but for her girls, it's the day things got a

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Speaker 1: little bit better. It's the day the abuse finally stopped.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations,

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Speaker 1: a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking

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Speaker 1: to the people who know the most about them. The

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Speaker 1: man was charged and the case went to trial. He

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Speaker 1: was only convicted of the charges related to Pippa, not

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Speaker 1: her little sister Rose. Michelle thought the fight for justice

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Speaker 1: would re empower her children. Instead, it retraumatized them. As

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Speaker 1: a mum and a teacher, Michelle was left devastated and

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Speaker 1: angered by how her girls were treated by the New

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Speaker 1: South Wales legal sites. Now twenty one and seventeen, Pipper

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Speaker 1: and Rose have been fighting alongside their mum for changes

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Speaker 1: to the way child victims are treated by the courts.

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Speaker 1: Michelle joins us now to talk about it all. Michelle,

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Speaker 1: thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about what your family's life looked like prior to

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Speaker 1: disclosure Day.

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Speaker 2: Brent, My husband and I moved to Aubury with an

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Speaker 2: eight week old baby in two thousand and three, and

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Speaker 2: we were just in that real hustle and bustle of

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Speaker 2: you know, busy having kids. Well, you know what it's

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Speaker 2: slash little people, definitely in the trenches. So Pip came

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Speaker 2: along in two thousand and five and then and rose

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight. And look, we had done

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Speaker 2: lots of different things, Like Brent had been overworking in

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Speaker 2: Western Australia for a time as well, so away for

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Speaker 2: three or four weeks at a time, and you know,

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Speaker 2: just doing those things that you do to live the

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Speaker 2: Australian dream. I suppose back in that time, I was

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Speaker 2: teaching as well, and then we owned a small business,

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Speaker 2: and you know, there was lots of different things that

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Speaker 2: was going on, and we played sport and our kids

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Speaker 2: were involved in that. We were just really what you

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Speaker 2: would possibly called us, that regular boring young couple with kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess pre everything happening, you would say

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Speaker 1: that your kids were happy, healthy, thriving kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, And yeah we had some challenges with

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Speaker 2: their health and things like that, but nothing outside of ordinary.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, they were amazing little people. And yeah, it

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Speaker 2: was just a very idealic time.

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Speaker 1: And then came Sunday, October twenty seventh, twenty thirteen, which

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Speaker 1: was disclosure Day as you call it. Tell me about

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Speaker 1: what happened that day.

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Speaker 2: It had been a weird sort of lead up to

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Speaker 2: that time because both Pippa and Rose were not enjoying

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Speaker 2: sleeping on their own, so Brent was often with one,

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Speaker 2: I was with another. And Rose woke me up early

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Speaker 2: that morning and said Mom, and I was, mom, A

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Speaker 2: three fillable Mum, Can I tell you something? And then

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Speaker 2: she just dropped a bomb, and you know, she said,

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Speaker 2: I don't like it when such and such leaks my vagina.

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Speaker 2: And I was kind of only half awake, and I said,

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Speaker 2: I beg your pardon. What did you say? And she

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Speaker 2: said it again? And I sort of sat in that

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Speaker 2: moment and realized that I sort of had one or

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Speaker 2: two ways to go. And you know, I'm a mandatory reporter.

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Speaker 2: I've done a lot of training around this type of

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Speaker 2: thing as a teacher, and so I just sort of said, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's not that's not good. You know, what else does

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Speaker 2: it do that you don't like? You know? So we

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Speaker 2: sort of started this conversation and and then she finished

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Speaker 2: and said can I watch too too now? Which was

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Speaker 2: the ABC Kids channel? Like she hadn't just dropped a

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Speaker 2: bomb on our world? And you know, I got up

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Speaker 2: and actually a bomb, I felt someone I just couldn't

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Speaker 2: believe that she had said that. You know, she was five,

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Speaker 2: she just turned five. We'd had her Pirate Princess party

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks earlier, like you know, all of

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Speaker 2: these things and anyway, and she did say to me

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Speaker 2: at the time, Pip had said that she doesn't think

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Speaker 2: he's allowed to do that. And so it kind of,

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Speaker 2: you know, made me realize that there was other things

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Speaker 2: going on. So I woke Brenner up and he thought

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Speaker 2: someone had died because I actually couldn't get the words out.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know how to speak to him about it,

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Speaker 2: I can imagine. And then I went into Pip and

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Speaker 2: you know, had a conversation with her, and she actually

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Speaker 2: couldn't speak. She couldn't speak because I just said to

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Speaker 2: her that Rosa told me something that that somebody had been,

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Speaker 2: you know, doing something to her that she didn't like,

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Speaker 2: and you know, was there anything that she needed to

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Speaker 2: tell me? And she just started crying. She put the

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Speaker 2: pillar over head first, and then she started crying, and

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Speaker 2: so she wrote down things that were happening.

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Speaker 1: It's such a mum thing to on the outside, calm

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Speaker 1: collected talking to you, to oh, thank you, what's next.

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Speaker 2: But then inside, I can only imagine that you were.

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Speaker 2: I just felt sick. I did, and you know, the

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Speaker 2: day play like I could probably step through most of

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Speaker 2: the day. There's little bits in the afternoon where even

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Speaker 2: when I was being questioned in court about it, I

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Speaker 2: was just like, I don't know, you know, And that

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Speaker 2: was I was getting criticized for not remembering, you know,

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Speaker 2: where I was sitting in the laundry. But I literally

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Speaker 2: felt like the wheels had just fallen off by that point.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's a pretty normal response to trauma, yeh,

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Speaker 1: to not remember something. Yeah, Yeah, this man he was

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Speaker 1: a family friend, wasn't it. Can you tell us about

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Speaker 1: how he was involved in your family?

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Speaker 2: So because we'd moved down to Aubrey, we had moved

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Speaker 2: away from our friends and our family, so we sort

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Speaker 2: of had made friends with people who could help us out.

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Speaker 2: So his wife helped us out sometimes looking after the kids,

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Speaker 2: and you know, she became like family, was very she

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Speaker 2: was very mum like to me, and I actually think

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Speaker 2: that was the hardest thing that you know, part of

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Speaker 2: the hardest thing was that this was sort of happening

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Speaker 2: on her watch. And yeah, so sometimes the kids would

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Speaker 2: go over there. Sometimes they would stay there, and we

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Speaker 2: just obviously had no idea what was going on, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was so they filed a bit a bit of

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Speaker 2: a void where our family were, and so.

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Speaker 1: They were almost like the fact her grandparents they were. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and is that how your kids treated them as well?

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Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, they even went into grandparents' day at school. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But you know, for us when our kids went there,

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Speaker 2: she was looking after them, not him like it. So

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Speaker 2: I was sort of like, you just put up with

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Speaker 2: it because of that.

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Speaker 1: How long had the abuse be happening.

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Speaker 2: When one of the girls were asked that question, they

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Speaker 2: said every time I went there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And they'd known him their whole life. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so as long as they can remember.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So and you know, that was the thing

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Speaker 2: that was really difficult with the whole police stuff, because

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Speaker 2: you know, you go there initially and and say, this

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Speaker 2: is what I've been told, this is what i've you know,

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Speaker 2: the kids have written down in Pipper's case, and this

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Speaker 2: is this is the stuff, and you do that initial

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Speaker 2: statement for me. Over the next couple of years, it

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Speaker 2: was more and more and more were disclosing more and more,

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Speaker 2: and it's like well, how often do you put them

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Speaker 2: through going and making a statement, because it was cruel

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Speaker 2: to do that when you want them to be healing.

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Speaker 2: And then as they've got older and their understanding of

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Speaker 2: what happened speak to it's a lot. It's oh gosh,

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Speaker 2: if if we knew then what we know now. Yep,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna make me cry. Sorry.

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Speaker 1: So it also sounds like, as mum, the girls were

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Speaker 1: telling you, they were telling you everything, that's a lot

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Speaker 1: for a mom to hold.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, what is it? A problem shared

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Speaker 2: is a problem halved? So that was sort of the

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Speaker 2: way it happened. And and I'm glad that that could

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Speaker 2: be my role, you know.

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Speaker 1: And how beautiful that they felt comfortable enough to share

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Speaker 1: those details with you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and looking that sort of you talk about the

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Speaker 2: grooming process too. It was having to unwine and a

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Speaker 2: very long process of grooming. You know, if you tell them,

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Speaker 2: your dad's going to think you're disgusting, if you tell

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Speaker 2: them you're not ever going to be able to see

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Speaker 2: his wife again. If you tell them, you know, people

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Speaker 2: are going to think poorly of you, or you know,

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Speaker 2: this is our little secret. People will be jealous of that,

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Speaker 2: you know, like all of those things. It was having

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Speaker 2: to unwind all of that very careful, considered grooming process.

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Speaker 2: And that's something I don't think that we talk about

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Speaker 2: often enough, like even as a family, like for Brent

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Speaker 2: and I we were groomed by him as well. Family. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 2: as I said, in retrospect, hindsight's the bitch. It really

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Speaker 2: slaps you in the face.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, why do you think Rose chose that Sunday

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Speaker 1: if it had been happening?

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Speaker 2: For my understanding was that it was getting worse. So

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Speaker 2: their offending was worse and more invasive. So she was

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Speaker 2: she was being hurt, and she had come home a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks earlier, and there was some you know again, hindsight.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, you know that's let's go there.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the hindsight. What were the signs that when.

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Speaker 2: You look back, when we look back, So there were

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Speaker 2: things like the kids loving going there and then not

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Speaker 2: wanting to anymore, and they all sort of went through

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Speaker 2: that stage of not wanting to be there anymore. There

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Speaker 2: was some selective mutism with adults, particularly when they went

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Speaker 2: to school. You're in retract infections, repeat your and retract infections.

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Speaker 2: I know. You know, Brent sort of remembers a time

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Speaker 2: when he went to pick Rose up and she was

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Speaker 2: hiding under a table down the back, and you know,

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Speaker 2: he said, at the time he thought it was just

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Speaker 2: like hide and seek, but it wasn't, you know, so Rose,

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Speaker 2: and you know this has sort of been reported on too.

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Speaker 2: Rose actually asked me to make her a superhero cape,

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Speaker 2: and so I made her a super Rose cape. So

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Speaker 2: she came home from their house that day and she

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Speaker 2: took it off and threw it on the ground and

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Speaker 2: stamped on it. And I was like, what are you doing,

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Speaker 2: because you know, we'd spend a lot of time making

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Speaker 2: this cape. And she said it didn't work. And I said,

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Speaker 2: what do you mean? What was your superpower? And she

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Speaker 2: said I wanted to be invisible. But he still found me,

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Speaker 2: you know. And at the time I just didn't think

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Speaker 2: anything of them because in my isolation, all of these things,

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Speaker 2: and this is isolation over a number of years, because

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Speaker 2: people have said to me, oh, you must regret this,

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Speaker 2: or you must regret that. I can't because if I

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Speaker 2: went down that rabbit hole, I don't think I'd be

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Speaker 2: able to get out. I honestly don't. You know you can't.

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Speaker 2: I can't look back. I can't change the things that happened.

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Speaker 2: But we can use it to have conversations with mums

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Speaker 2: and dads and say, you know, these are some of

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Speaker 2: the things that were flags for us, and have conversations

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Speaker 2: with your children because these are some of the things

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Speaker 2: that were flags. So that's the best we can do.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was thinking for your five year old to

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Speaker 1: use the language vagina and all the terms. Had you

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Speaker 1: taught your girls about all of that stuff?

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I had, And this is a thing, so

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Speaker 2: this wasn't an unfamiliar path for me. You know, second

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Speaker 2: generation child abuse survivors live in my family, and I

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Speaker 2: thought that I had prepared them very well for that.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I was lucky that Rose used the

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Speaker 2: words that she did because it gave me no doubt

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Speaker 2: that she was talking about those particular body parts. But

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Speaker 2: you know, it's it's again. It goes to show the

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Speaker 2: nature of that grooming and how well it can be

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Speaker 2: done to make people feel like it's okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is there any advice to parents who are hoving

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Speaker 1: those conversations with their kids, Like right now, I've got

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Speaker 1: very young kids and I'm even starting those consent conversations

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Speaker 1: now with my son. You know, this is your body.

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Speaker 1: Is there a way you wish you did it? Or

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Speaker 1: is it just I think brooming overtakes it no matter what.

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Speaker 2: In this instance, I don't want to say that it

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Speaker 2: overtakes it because I don't want to give people this

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Speaker 2: hopelessness around it, because that's not fair to anybody. But

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Speaker 2: it's always I think, being open to those any conversations,

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Speaker 2: even if they're you know, little ones like when you

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Speaker 2: pick them up and you don't. Because I'm a teacher,

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Speaker 2: I always worry about people who get their kids in

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Speaker 2: the current say how is your day? Know, how is

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Speaker 2: your day? Really? You know, trying to see if there

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Speaker 2: was any bad things. I think it's really just being

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Speaker 2: very very honest with them about Nobody is allowed to

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Speaker 2: touch you where you don't want to be touched. You

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Speaker 2: are allowed to always tell me if something makes you uncomfortable,

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Speaker 2: talk about what those uncomfortable feelings are. You know, the

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Speaker 2: feelings in the tummy, and you know those things. But

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Speaker 2: also to say to them, you know, sometimes people might

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Speaker 2: say that you're not allowed to tell me something, but

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Speaker 2: you can always tell me anything. I think that's the

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Speaker 2: really important thing.

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Speaker 1: So it's broadening those consent conversations to include grooming.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, yeah, which is sad, but I think that's

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Speaker 2: the real force out there is that people. As I said,

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Speaker 2: I thought my kids were well prepared. I thought that

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Speaker 2: they knew that no one could do those things to

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Speaker 2: them because of the conversations we'd had. What I didn't

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Speaker 2: expect was that someone so trusted would make them feel

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Speaker 2: like they couldn't talk to me about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're listening to try true crime conversations with me,

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Speaker 1: Jemma Bath. I'm speaking with Michelle Milthorpe, politician and advocate

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Speaker 1: for victims of child sexual abuse. Up next, Michelle tells

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Speaker 1: us what happened when she confronted her daughter's abuser. So,

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Speaker 1: once you had this information from the girls, what was

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Speaker 1: your next move?

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Speaker 2: I rang his wife and asked her to come to

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Speaker 2: our house, because, as I said, she was like family

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Speaker 2: to us. And she came around and I told her

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Speaker 2: what the girls had told me, and she wasn't shocked. Really,

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Speaker 2: So instead of saying no, like if someone came and

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Speaker 2: saw me about that, I'd be like no that No,

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Speaker 2: you'd get defensive wouldn't you very much. So and it

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Speaker 2: was just like, oh my god, what have you done?

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Speaker 2: What have you done? And immediately I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I just I was like, this is this It wasn't

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Speaker 2: a reaction that I was expecting. So that happened. I'd

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Speaker 2: actually packed up a lot of things that had been

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Speaker 2: given to me by her and gave them back. It

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Speaker 2: sounds so weird, you know, people wanted to talk that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it well, you know, it felt like she died

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Speaker 2: to us that day, and you know, from her continued

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Speaker 2: support of him, that's kind of what happened. So that happened.

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Speaker 2: He actually she actually went and got him and he

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Speaker 2: came around as well. Brennan had taken the girls to

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Speaker 2: the park. She went and got him, and he came

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Speaker 2: around and was blustering and walked in the door and

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Speaker 2: then realized that it was serious. And my conversation with

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Speaker 2: him was tell me, like, tell me why why they

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Speaker 2: would say that? And then I actually reframed it and said, no,

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Speaker 2: tell me how, like how could they have said that

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Speaker 2: because they don't know about that, Like they're little girls,

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Speaker 2: they don't know any of this. And he couldn't answer

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Speaker 2: that question, so he left. I rang the school principal,

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Speaker 2: the girl's school principal, and I think that that was

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Speaker 2: my way of putting this protection up between me and

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Speaker 2: having to make the call to the police.

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Speaker 1: Right okay, because the school has to, they have to.

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Speaker 2: And I didn't want to make that phone call. And anyway,

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Speaker 2: so she came around and she called the police, and

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Speaker 2: then they came. And this is the thing, So this

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Speaker 2: is where you stop knowing things, you know. So the

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Speaker 2: police came around. I expected that they would talk to

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Speaker 2: the girls, and they're like, oh no, the girls. We

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Speaker 2: can't have a conversation with them. They need to stay away.

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Speaker 2: And we're like all right, oh so okay. So then

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Speaker 2: Brennan and I were in our front room of our

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Speaker 2: house and I was pacing, like I was just walking

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Speaker 2: up and down, and I was just saying, I just

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Speaker 2: I still remember saying, like, I just don't know how

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Speaker 2: this could be happened. It's not like we don't sit

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Speaker 2: around watching porn, Like, I don't know how this happened.

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Speaker 2: I just don't know how they could know about this.

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Speaker 2: And I looked over and this massive policeman sitting in

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Speaker 2: this chair with like tears, and I was like and

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Speaker 2: I looked at him and he goes, because it happened.

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Speaker 2: They know, because it happened, you know. And and then

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Speaker 2: they said, oh, the Joint Investigative Response Team were going

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Speaker 2: to be the next team to be in contact with us,

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Speaker 2: and we were just like oh okay. And then the

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Speaker 2: end of Monday came and we hadn't had any calls,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, this is really weird. And

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Speaker 2: then Tuesday, so I rang on Tuesday, rang the police

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Speaker 2: station and said, look, you know, this happened on the weekend,

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Speaker 2: just wondering what's happening. And they're like, oh, we'll put

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Speaker 2: you through to the child abuse squad. Got put through

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Speaker 2: the child abuse squad. Oh look, you know, we've had

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Speaker 2: to look at who's doing a case because you actually

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Speaker 2: know a couple of the police officers here, and we

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Speaker 2: don't want it to be tainted, YadA YadA. And like

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Speaker 2: we knew they were police officers, we didn't know what

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Speaker 2: they did. So that sort of put up on And

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Speaker 2: then I rang back and said, well, what do we

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Speaker 2: meant to do in the meantime because I've got like

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Speaker 2: my kids a.

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Speaker 1: Year and it just told me something. Yeah, and no

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Speaker 1: one cares.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it feels to them, oh, well you're you

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Speaker 2: know they're safe. It's like, yep, they are, but I

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Speaker 2: need to know. I need to tell them what the

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Speaker 2: time frame is. Anyway, the part of the joint is

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Speaker 2: having someone from the from Sexual Assault Service as part

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Speaker 2: of that, and also of DCJ or DOCS as they

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Speaker 2: were back then. So the person from the Sexual Assault

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Speaker 2: Service came around to our house and just sort of

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Speaker 2: went through that process with us. But it was again

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Speaker 2: it was because I was quite dogging in, well what

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Speaker 2: happens next, and I did have pit particularly was sitting

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Speaker 2: at home. She's very principled, and she was like, well,

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Speaker 2: they obviously don't care. They do not care. If they cared,

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Speaker 2: they would have talked to us by now. So she

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Speaker 2: was sort of in that mindset. And again she'd been

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Speaker 2: told that people wouldn't believe her and all that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing, so it was not sitting well with her.

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Speaker 2: And it took eight days. Eight days, so I actually

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Speaker 2: took the kids to school the day after. And it

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Speaker 2: was always this thing that I looked back on and

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Speaker 2: was like, that's so mean, like why did you take

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Speaker 2: them to school? But I think my reasoning was that

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Speaker 2: we needed to keep things normal and structure helps. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I think I needed a minute too, to just

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Speaker 2: lose it without little Yes, yeah, so I did that.

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Speaker 1: The girls probably don't even remember that, do they as

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Speaker 1: a bad thing?

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Speaker 2: No, exactly. Just stop beating yourself up. You did what

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Speaker 2: you had to do, someone said to me. A counselor

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Speaker 2: said to me a little a little while later, she said,

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Speaker 2: you need to stop beating yourself up. She said, because

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Speaker 2: the reality is that on that day their life got better.

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Speaker 2: It was yours that that changed. So and imagine the opposite.

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Speaker 1: You kept them at home, you had your mental breakdown

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Speaker 1: in front of you, ugly, you know, you needed space.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Yeah, anyway, so it was all it

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Speaker 2: was a bit of a just hurry up and wait,

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Speaker 2: which sort of if I had to name the next

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Speaker 2: two and a half years of our life, that's sort

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Speaker 2: of what it felt like. And look that two and

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Speaker 2: a half years is you're you know, the kids don't

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Speaker 2: have an opportunity to move. Yeah, you know, they don't

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Speaker 2: have an opportunity to just leave that people behind and

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Speaker 2: get onto the healing. It's all sort of about waiting

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00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 2: and just pausing in this space. Like Rose started school

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Speaker 2: the year after, so twenty fourteen, and she did not

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Speaker 2: learn how to read until she finished court.

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Speaker 1: So let's go to when the girls were finally interviewed.

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Speaker 2: What was that like? Were you allowed in with them?

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Speaker 1: No, that's bizarre to me because shouldn't a guardian be

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Speaker 1: allowed with them?

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Speaker 2: No, So we weren't with them. We were obviously just

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Speaker 2: down the hall, but it was the detective and the

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Speaker 2: DCJ social WORKERFF, so they were together in the interview room.

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Speaker 2: And Pitt was really angry by the time we got

405
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Speaker 2: there because she felt that, you know, no one was

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Speaker 2: listening and no one cared, and why did we tell

407
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Speaker 2: this because now we don't get to see this lady anymore,

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00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 2: and you know, all of those things. And so I

409
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,239
Speaker 2: actually said within her earshot, because the police officer just

410
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: said quietly to us, I just need to let you

411
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Speaker 2: know that nine times out of ten, we can't do

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Speaker 2: anything because we don't get enough evidence from the children,

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Speaker 2: like they just don't. It's not because we don't believe them,

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Speaker 2: it's because we know that we don't want to take

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Speaker 2: them through the process, which that would be a really

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Speaker 2: hard place to be in as a police officer, like

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Speaker 2: I kin'd of imagine the vicarious trauma that happens through

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Speaker 2: that as well. Anyway, I'd have said to him, well,

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Speaker 2: you haven't met Pipper Millthorpe yet. She's amazing. She has

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Speaker 2: such a great eye for detail. She'll be able to

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Speaker 2: tell you whatever whatever has happened to her so that

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Speaker 2: she can protect other children.

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Speaker 1: You know, you said Rose became kind of a protector.

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Speaker 1: What about Piper with true? Yeah, she was a bit older.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, so she she really withdrew into herself

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Speaker 2: for a long time and she is a very deep think,

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Speaker 2: a very deep feeling person. She still is. She's fabulous

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Speaker 2: as they all are. But yeah, it was really hard,

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Speaker 2: and I think too she had this real sadness and

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Speaker 2: she really missed she really missed the particularly the lady

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Speaker 2: in this And yeah, so there was a lot there

432
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 2: for her to process. Rose, I don't know if it

433
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: was being a bit younger, if it was just you know,

434
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 2: she considered her role to be all right, I'm okay,

435
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: you know, I'm all right. And then obviously we had

436
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: Mag's our eldest daughter as well, who was very much

437
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: part of all of this, and there as the big

438
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: sister watching it all unfold. And you know, also she

439
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: had to talk to the police as well as a

440
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 2: witness to things. And yeah, it was just it was

441
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: a tricky time trying to balance it all out, and

442
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: we just did the best that we could.

443
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: And during this time, this two and a half years,

444
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: he was on bail. Yeah, and you live in a

445
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: reasonably small place. Yeah, so we used to have been intimidating,

446
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: it was, and.

447
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 2: You know, there was this you know, we wanted to,

448
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: you know, get the girls confident enough to go and

449
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: you know, if we're in the shopping center, Oh you

450
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 2: can go and get some donuts from Donut King, or

451
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: you know, you can go to Big w and look

452
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 2: in the toy section while I'm over here in their

453
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: home work section. But you have to have the conversations.

454
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 2: Just remember, if you see him, you have to do

455
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: this and that, you know, so things that other kids

456
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: didn't have to do. So it's being vigilant without being scared.

457
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: And so that's we had to minimize his power. Did

458
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: you see him, No, we didn't. Brent saw him a

459
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 2: couple of times and he smiled and laughed at him. Yeah,

460
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: and I didn't see him again until we started in

461
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: court in Aubrey because we started there first before it

462
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 2: was a Jourendin moved to Sydney, so I hadn't seen

463
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 2: him until then, and the girls saw him there too.

464
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 2: He was not far away. He's very about seven meters

465
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 2: away from where we were sitting.

466
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: Which is another problem we need to talk about with

467
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: the lord system and children is that the case goes

468
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: to trial and the girls, after two and a half

469
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: years of living with this trauma and worrying about this trial,

470
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: end up in a courtroom with the person that they

471
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: say abuse them sitting right there.

472
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: So yeah, all their evidence and things were given via

473
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: like in another room, but where you wait to give

474
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: that evidence is in the same corridor as the offender.

475
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: So that was something that was really tricky. And some

476
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: people may have heard this story before. But my brother

477
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: came and he spent some time with us during well,

478
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 2: my whole family were there, like we were very very

479
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: well supported by our family and friends, but my brother

480
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: was there and he had lived with us for a

481
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: period of time and been one of those people that

482
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: had dropped the kids off there when we needed to.

483
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: And you know, there's this little bit of guilt that

484
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: everyone carries for doing that even though we shouldn't. Anyway,

485
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: he was there and he could see that the girls

486
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: were feeling uncomfortable, and so he sort of looked out

487
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: the door and he's like, oh, is that him? I said, yeah,

488
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: that's him, and he's gone, Jesu's got old, but yeah

489
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: he has. I think he's got a bit fat too.

490
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: And the girl started giggling and I said yeah, and

491
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 2: he goes, he's just said, oh, fat motherfucker. Anyway, I

492
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 2: don't care what anyone thinks. That was his name. From

493
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: then on, he was just the motherfucker and it minimized

494
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: his power and it gave our girls this element of

495
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: power back because O were little girls that had never

496
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: said words like that before.

497
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: I was going to say motherfucker to a how old

498
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 1: were they seven and eleven?

499
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: It would have been oh my goodness. It was a

500
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: bit of a power thing.

501
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: So hold on to your brother, because trying to break

502
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: that ice, yeah, and give.

503
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: Them their power back. Yeah.

504
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: So you mentioned that it started in Aubrey and then

505
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: the decision was made to go to Sydney. Tell me

506
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: about that move to Sydney because you had to come

507
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: for a number of weeks.

508
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were here for four and a half weeks,

509
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: and you know, just a backpedal a bit too. You know,

510
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: you live in a regional community, you go to caught

511
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: people on jury duty. There were two people that we

512
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 2: knew who were on jury duty that day, and one

513
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: of them was meant to be replacing me at work

514
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: because I was yeah, like it was just this really strange,

515
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: you know, circumstance. Yeah, so look, it was probably a

516
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: bonus that it got moved up here because it was fresh,

517
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: no one knew anybody involved. And look, initially they said

518
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: it would be ten days, so we're like, yeah, we

519
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: can do ten days, that's okay. And then as it

520
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: turned out, it was just this long, drawn out, horrendous process.

521
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: And you know, four and a half weeks, and we

522
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: did not go home because peop at that point was

523
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: a suicidal eleven year olds and we knew that if

524
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: we had gone home it would have been really hard

525
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: to get back here again. But I know my daughter

526
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: well enough to know that if we had gone home

527
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: and she didn't see it through, she would have found

528
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: it really hard to live through that to move on. Yeah,

529
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: So as cruel as it felt at the time, and

530
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: probably even just looking back. We didn't go home. We

531
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: stayed here and you know, I have I had family

532
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: living here, so that sort of made it easy to

533
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: go and see them and do things with them. On

534
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: the weekend. You do the Manly Fairy and have the

535
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: dolphins swimming beside us on the fairy and all those

536
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: beautiful things.

537
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: So in terms of what was required of the girls

538
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: in the trial, yeah, what does that look like?

539
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we were some unprepared, so unprepared I and

540
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: that I think, you know, that's the idea of that

541
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: is that you're not contaminated. You know, you haven't been contaminated.

542
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: So we came up here and they have like a

543
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: trial before the trial, a pre trial, Yes, the pre trial.

544
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: It's got a fancy name guard or something like that.

545
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: We'll call it the pre trial. Right, So we came

546
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: up and they explained what the pre trial was. And again,

547
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: you know, this was people that the kids didn't know.

548
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: So they only met our barrister, we call him our barrister,

549
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 2: the crown barrister, just three days before. They'd never met him.

550
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: So we came up and they said, look, you know,

551
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: we're doing the pre trial because they're trying to split

552
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: the cases, which is actually a tactic that people have

553
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: used in these types of things for a long time.

554
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: So instead of a jury knowing that there's more than

555
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: one victim, right, so they were trying to split the cases.

556
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: And they were also trying to eliminate the context for

557
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: how I came to know about it, which was Rose's

558
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 2: you know, declaration of what happened that morning. And they

559
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: didn't want that to be part of it because so

560
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: because when she spoke to the police, she when she

561
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 2: did her statement, she didn't she wasn't as explicit to

562
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: them as she had been to me in what had happened.

563
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: So why would they think that you removing that part

564
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: of the story would be allowed, like, because they'd always

565
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: got away with that.

566
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: They'd always been allowed to do that. So context evidence,

567
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: you know, has been allowed to be taken out. Well,

568
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: they didn't get away with it. We were allowed to

569
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 2: do it. So but that was so it's a trial,

570
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: a pre trial is a trial. So the girls had

571
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: to sit and listen to their evidence and then they

572
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: had to be asked questions by the judge and that

573
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: was a couple of days for each of them. I

574
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: had to I was, you know, gave my evidence and

575
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: was cross examined, and I can honestly say I was unprepared.

576
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: I did not I was not ready for that. I

577
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: didn't know what I had to do. In what way

578
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: did you find the cross examination? It wasn't necessarily cross examination.

579
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 2: It was sort of the level of trickery involved in

580
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: it was actually I was sort of looking at the

581
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 2: judge waiting for him to say something like, well, I've

582
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 2: already answered that question.

583
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: And in that way, did they try and like pick

584
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: apart your story as you're saying it. Yeah, yeah, and

585
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: you're like, this happened to it a half years ago.

586
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 2: I'm doing the best I can. Yeah. Well yeah, And

587
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: it was a bit like that. But you know, and

588
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: as we just kept maintaining throughout the whole thing, just

589
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 2: tell the truth. Yeah, Like if you're telling the truth,

590
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 2: you don't have to think about it, like it's just

591
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: that it's a recall, whereas if you're trying to fabricate something,

592
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: you get it wrong. Yeah. So if you just keep

593
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 2: telling the truth, yeah, it eventually wins out right. So yeah,

594
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: the pre trial was weird to do that, and then

595
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: that sort of lasted about I think that was almost

596
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: seven days. It was a really long time. And then

597
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: the trial proper started and so Rose was the first

598
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: one to be cold, and so she had to listen

599
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: to her evidence again, so watching her five year old

600
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 2: self speech to a police officer. She had to do

601
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: that again, and then she they started the cross examination

602
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: process with her and the jury remember fell asleep, you're joking, No,

603
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: and they had to abandon the trap and they had

604
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: to impanel a new jury and she had to do

605
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: it again. She had to do it again. So Rose

606
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 2: actually did it three times. Oh my gosh, yeah, she

607
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 2: did it three times.

608
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: And to be clear, when the girls are doing it,

609
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: are they standing in a full courtroom with the judge

610
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: and everyone.

611
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: No, So what happens is at the back they go

612
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 2: out the back and up in the elevator and there's

613
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: like a telegoton probably not dissimilar to this, but nowhere

614
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 2: near as nice. It's very clinical. So they went up

615
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: and so we had to drop them off and just leave.

616
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: Them there as seven and eleven year old.

617
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, my sister was there for the first couple

618
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: of weeks, and then a friend came up because my

619
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 2: sister had little, tiny kids at the time.

620
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: As in the sister could go with them at the back.

621
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, she could be out that she can go into

622
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: the room with them, but she could be out the back.

623
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: It's just wild to me that a seven year old

624
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: isn't allowed to chaperone that they know.

625
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it, Like, that's wild. Yeah. So they sit

626
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 2: in there and they watch their evidence. So they watched

627
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: themselves so that they can remember that, they can remember it,

628
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 2: and then they get cross examined by so they just

629
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 2: see the barrister and the judge in the court room.

630
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: They're the only people that they can see. So they

631
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: didn't see him from there. Yep, we saw him on

632
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: the street, but they didn't see him during that period.

633
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: But they also didn't see us. So you weren't allowed

634
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: to watch any of this, were you?

635
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: No? Because we were both witnesses. So do you know

636
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: to this day, I've actually never I have never seen

637
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 2: their evidence. I don't know what they told the police,

638
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: and Brent and I have never seen each other's really, Yeah,

639
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: because even though I went first and could have been

640
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: in the court room when he gave his evidence, he

641
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: actually asked me not to be.

642
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did the girls because I'm assuming you haven't

643
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 1: seen the cross examination either, No, how did they describe it?

644
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: Rose thought it was mean. She like I remember her

645
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: just saying, they're being so mean. That man is so mean.

646
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 2: I had this impression of the justice system that is

647
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 2: so naive. I just looked down and think, Wow, you're

648
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: an idiot, Like I was so naive. The protection was

649
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: all around the offender and his rights, and it was

650
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: not at all about these are children. You cannot speak

651
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 2: to children like that it was, and even any witness,

652
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: any vulnerable witness, I just think, Yeah, So it was

653
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: absolutely shocking to me that that happened. So Rose saw

654
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 2: it as mean. Pippa shut down. She shut down. She

655
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: could only she answered every question that she had to.

656
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: But he appealed his conviction, right, and when they went

657
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: back through, so there were four judges that went back

658
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: through and did the appeal. They actually they commented that

659
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: she answered every question that was asked of her. She

660
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 2: just didn't answer it the multiple times that they asked it, so.

661
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: She just remained silent when he kept asking it.

662
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, good honor. Yeah, well she was just she was

663
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 2: almost catatonic, like she just sat there with tears rolling

664
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: down her face and you know, she said to me,

665
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 2: like the judge told me to stop crying.

666
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: They're children, You're asking them about the most horrible thing

667
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: that they've ever experienced.

668
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So it was just it was so unheard of,

669
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 2: and look, I look now and just go The biggest

670
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: mistake they did was treat my children like that, because

671
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 2: by the time it was my turn to go in,

672
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 2: I was pretty fired up, and they'd given me too

673
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 2: much time to learn my statement, so I could actually

674
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: write it off by heart by the time I went

675
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: back in, because I was not going to get caught

676
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 2: off guard. And it was just it was actually it

677
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 2: was just gross. And I just looked at and I

678
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: know that everyone has a job to do, but there's

679
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 2: a way that you choose to do a job. And

680
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 2: I was really disappointed in the lack of humanity. But

681
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: you know, at that point, everyone's innocent until proven guilty.

682
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: You know. It was just, yeah, it was just disgusting.

683
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 2: The innocence of my kids was not considered in that though.

684
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: Things happened that I couldn't believe, and it was one

685
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: of those things. So I was actually journaling on the

686
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: daily because people were supporting us, so I would just

687
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 2: like write a bit of an update, and sometimes I

688
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 2: was just so far betched. I was like, no one's

689
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: going to believe this, Like it's just ridiculous.

690
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 1: Well, I've heard you describe what happened to your girls

691
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: in that court process. It's emotional abuse.

692
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. And so we had a period of time.

693
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: It was a Friday, and this was into the third

694
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: or third week Friday, and the third week Pip was

695
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: not doing well, and she was She actually had tonsilitis

696
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 2: as well, so she was physically unwell. This was all happening.

697
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: We were told that morning they say, this is another

698
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: thing that just happened. We were told that morning that

699
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 2: it might not be going ahead that day because one

700
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: of the jury members was sick. So Pip had gone

701
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 2: down to Darling Harbor to have a little run around

702
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: Darling Harbor with some some of our friends, and then

703
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 2: we got the phone call to say, oh, they got

704
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: the wrong room. It wasn't your jury. She has to

705
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: be here in ten minutes. So they literally had to

706
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 2: run from Darling Harbor up to the courthouse and she

707
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: had to go in. So she'd already sort of thought, oh,

708
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: you know, I don't have to do this today. It

709
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: was in a better head space, in a better headspace,

710
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 2: and then she had to go back in after all

711
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: of this, and anyway, so the questioning started. Apparently she

712
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 2: wasn't answering questions. She was just sort of sitting there

713
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: and not wanting to, you know, speak, and did a

714
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 2: couple of questions, but not all of them. And the

715
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 2: barraster came out and the Crown barras came out and

716
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,479
Speaker 2: talked to us, and he said, look, you know they're

717
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: talking about wanting to dismiss the case because she's not

718
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 2: answering the questions anyway. Anyway, so I went, okay, all right,

719
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 2: and so I just started writing down some key things

720
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: and I just went through all the things that had

721
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: happened in the lead up to that period of time.

722
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: And I'd just said, well, if that's the case, see

723
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,959
Speaker 2: all this stuff. I said, I'm happy to go trial

724
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 2: by media. It's all fine. Like I'm actually okay with that.

725
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 2: I had actually reached out to some people here and said,

726
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: this is happening, and I never thought this would happen

727
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: because I just I could not believe that this was

728
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 2: what we were living. Yep, because no one talked about it. Yeah, anyway,

729
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 2: So that was, you know, just another thing that happened

730
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: that made it difficult. So that was, yeah, the end

731
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 2: of the third week, and I just wrote it down

732
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 2: and said, these are all the barriers that have been

733
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: put in front of my eleven year old up to

734
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: this period of time. And you know, if you're wanting

735
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: to drop the case, like, I'm happy to kick off,

736
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 2: like I'm happy to get angry about this because We're

737
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: not here and got to this point for nothing. So

738
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: we went away for the weekend, We went down to

739
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: my because they lived at the Rule and had a

740
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 2: lovely weekend down there. Came back and everything changed on

741
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: the Monday, so the types of questions were better. The

742
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: barrister objected to some things and it was your mama Bear.

743
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: Well look, I don't know if it was that or

744
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: whether you know, they just decided to get things moving along.

745
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 2: And then yeah, so I got to go in, Brent

746
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 2: got to go in. You know, it kind of finished

747
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: up reasonably quickly in that last week. But yeah, I

748
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: was not prepared for it at all.

749
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: Well, they were treated like little grown ups.

750
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: Yes, yes they were, And most adults would find that

751
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: a really, really difficult situation. To be.

752
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: I don't know how I'd handle across examination like that.

753
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: No, well, I was doing it wrong, apparently I do.

754
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 2: I did say to the judge at one point, I

755
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 2: haven't done this before, like year ten, mock trial does

756
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 2: not count. Did he give evidence? Yes? And so did she?

757
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: Were you there for it? Yeah? She gave evidence. And

758
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 2: I sat in there and listened, and I watched her

759
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 2: lie and she looked at me while she did it,

760
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 2: and I just got up and left. I couldn't listen

761
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: to it. And then he gave evidence, and he actually

762
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 2: proved everyone the type of man that he was when

763
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 2: he gave his evidence. He was smug, and he was

764
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 2: made rude comments about his wife in the Yeah, and yeah,

765
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: it was just And again I listened to some of it,

766
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 2: and then I got up and left.

767
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: He was convicted for the crimes against Pipper, Yeah, but

768
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: not Rose.

769
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you remember finding that out? So it didn't

770
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: matter if he was found guilty or not, because I

771
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: knew my girls were telling the truth. When he was

772
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: found guilty of most of the child I think nearly

773
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 2: all the charges against pip up and not Rose, we

774
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: decided that we wouldn't tell Rose about that at the

775
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 2: time because it wouldn't have meant to anything to her either.

776
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 2: She was seven and a half, like young. Yeah, she

777
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 2: wasn't going to understand that, so you know, it was just,

778
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 2: you know, for them, it was we're really proud that

779
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 2: you told the truth, and because you did that, you've

780
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 2: kept other people safe. The night that we found out,

781
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 2: or the afternoon that we found out, I chose not

782
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 2: to be here in Sydney for that. I stayed at home.

783
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 2: Brent had flown up the day earlier, but no decision

784
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: had been made at that point. He was at home.

785
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: He was actually picking the kids up from school when

786
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: we found out. So my cousin and my uncle were

787
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: in the courtroom and they came out and told me

788
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: what had happened, and I just I don't think I

789
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: really felt anything, Like I didn't. Then we had lots

790
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 2: of people friends come around and like who had been

791
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 2: so supportive and everything and came around, and someone bought

792
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 2: a ball of champagne and like all this sort of thing.

793
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 2: And then the police officer came around too, like he

794
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: sort of had become a friend over that time, you know,

795
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 2: And I actually got up and left because I just

796
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 2: and it wasn't because they were of anything they were doing.

797
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 2: I just I couldn't celebrate what I already knew was truth,

798
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: and I don't think anyone was celebrating. It was sort

799
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: of a relief, but it was just this very weird

800
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 2: thing where you know, you can't celebrate that.

801
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: You also are celebrating, Like it feels kind of like

802
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: you're celebrating a system that you've just watched traumatize your kids.

803
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.

804
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, we got the result we wanted,

805
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: but we went through hell to get it.

806
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: We did, you know, and he was granted bail again.

807
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 2: Like after that, he was you know, he was allowed

808
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 2: out until sentencing. Why did the judge say so? The

809
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: judge said that he wasn't considered a risk to the community.

810
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: Right, but you've mentioned that they had other children in

811
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: their lives.

812
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was a bit hard to swallow. It's like, okay, well,

813
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: how bad do you have to be? Yeah, how bad

814
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: do you have to be? So you're allowed to do

815
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 2: these things to children and you're not a risk. So

816
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: he wasn't a risk to the judge anyway, So he

817
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 2: was allowed out and then we had to do like

818
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 2: the victim impact statements and things like that. So I

819
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: actually so with the girls with Pipper wrote the victim

820
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: impact statement, and then we wrote one for Rose as well,

821
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 2: so that she didn't feel like she was being left out,

822
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: and then we kind of meshed it a bit together

823
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: because it was an impact on our whole family and

824
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,919
Speaker 2: that actually wasn't considered at the time. I really only

825
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 2: wanted pips victim impact statement, and I was a but

826
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 2: where like where all victims in this Like it was

827
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 2: it was a weird thing to do, and to be

828
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 2: completely honest when we did the victim impact statement, because

829
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 2: we had seen Pip go from this vivacious, charismatic, happy,

830
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 2: had lots of friends, you know, this beautiful little girl

831
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 2: to a shell, you know, and she was so desperately sad,

832
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: and so when I wrote it, I was so honest

833
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 2: about that, and I actually went back and used like

834
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: because this lady had written some lovely things about the

835
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: types of girls that we had, and I used her

836
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: descriptions of our kids to say, this is what they

837
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: were like, and this is what we have right now,

838
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: but this isn't the end for them, and they will

839
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 2: go on to be strong and happy and live really

840
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 2: good lives despite any of this. So yeah, so we did.

841
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 2: I had to read the victim impact statement out in

842
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 2: court and then and he was still out at that point,

843
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 2: and his wife got up and did a victim impact

844
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 2: statement as if, like how it would be bad for

845
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: her for him to go to jail, right, And I

846
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 2: had to leave for that one too. That's actually the

847
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 2: first time that I really had to blow up, Like

848
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 2: I actually lost it inside the court room. I was

849
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: sitting outside and this poor lady, she was Salvation Army lady.

850
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: She came out to try and be nice to me.

851
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 2: I just wasn't having it, and I was just like

852
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 2: and I actually ended up saying, if you want to

853
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: do something, you can pray for her soul. She just lied,

854
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,959
Speaker 2: She just lied. I got to laugh where your cry.

855
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 2: I was so angry. It was out of everything that

856
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 2: I could have been angry at the poor Salvation Army lady,

857
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: who was just this gorgeous, beautiful, supportive person who was

858
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 2: you know, impartial, Like she copped it. Yeah, so that

859
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: was really hard. And again he got bail and so

860
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: he went home again, and then it wasn't and so

861
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 2: we finished court in May. It wasn't until September that

862
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: he finally went to jail.

863
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts towards the sentence or, like

864
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: you said, does that part not matter to you?

865
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: Oh? Look, you know three years and nine months and

866
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 2: he was out in two and a half years. It

867
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: just doesn't.

868
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: For everything the girls went through, Yeah, it just doesn't

869
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: feel like a lot, doesn't It doesn't.

870
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 2: But then at the same time, I look now and go,

871
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 2: what do they do? Who do they talk to you?

872
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,240
Speaker 2: I think, you know, there's a bit of a life

873
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 2: sentence there because they're very ostracized in the community. From

874
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 2: what I can tell, As I said, I've never seen them.

875
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 2: I've never seen them out in the community, so I

876
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 2: can imagine that's quite isolating. And you know that's what

877
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 2: happens when you are not a nice person.

878
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: If you had your time again, would you go to

879
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: trial again.

880
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 2: That's a really hard question to answer, because we've done

881
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: the work to change the way. If it was done

882
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 2: in the same way, if I knew then what I

883
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: knew back in twenty sixteen, probably no. Yeah, I don't

884
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 2: know how I could encourage anyone to go through that.

885
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 2: But there was something else I had a very good

886
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,879
Speaker 2: friend of mine who has been a victim of this

887
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 2: type of crime, and she's one of the most special,

888
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 2: strongest people I know, and she's never taken her offender

889
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 2: to court and it weighs heavily on her. And she

890
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 2: said to me one day that if you think that

891
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 2: they can do it, do it. You know. That's interesting. Yeah,

892
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 2: so that was kind of always in the back of

893
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 2: my head too. Yeah, what was the So I want

894
00:52:58,800 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 2: to get to your advocacy.

895
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 1: I'm really interested to know once everything was done, what

896
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 1: did those weeks and months look like.

897
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 2: Did your girls start to come alive again?

898
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: Or did it really take a long time.

899
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 2: Rose came out of the courtroom after she had finished

900
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: her final cross examination and went, all right, I'm finished.

901
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 2: Can I go get my new high tops now? Because

902
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,720
Speaker 2: she had her eye on these high top basketball boots

903
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: that she wanted to And we're like, oh, well, once

904
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 2: you finish, we'll go, you know, we can go stopping

905
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: and do that. So that was that was the first

906
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 2: thing that she said. It was like, yep, done, close

907
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 2: the book on that. I'm out, you know. And she

908
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 2: went back to school and her teachers she had two

909
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 2: teachers at the time, and they're like, oh my god,

910
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 2: she's just like this brother fresh air. She just walked

911
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 2: back in like nothing's happened. You know. It was four

912
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 2: and a half weeks after the school term and started,

913
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 2: you know, and she just sort of slotted back in

914
00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 2: and was king of the kids and living her best life.

915
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 2: And then we had our little you know, and Maggie,

916
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 2: Like Maggie had sat there for four and a half

917
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: weeks too, you know, waiting to give her evidence. And

918
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 2: you know, she was a really crucial piece of the puzzle.

919
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 2: She was able to put people where they were at

920
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 2: times that they said they were and all of those things.

921
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 2: Her evidence was very compelling, which is what the you know,

922
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 2: the barrister has told us since. But she had to

923
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 2: be in that space too, and she was in year seven,

924
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 2: you know, she was in high school and it was hard,

925
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 2: and you know, she just you know, she had to

926
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 2: go back into that and try and navigate that space

927
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 2: as well. And she was incredible, and our little Pip

928
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 2: she struggled. She struggled. She was in year five and

929
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 2: she found it really hard just to find any joy

930
00:54:53,120 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 2: in anything. And you know, that was she did a

931
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 2: lot of work. She did a lot of work and yeah,

932
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 2: and she very openly talks about this because I think

933
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 2: she should be totally celebrated for all your goals. They

934
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 2: are bloody superheroes, they are. And you know she, yeah,

935
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 2: she did the work to get back in it. I

936
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 2: still remember her one day saying to me. We were

937
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 2: sitting out in the front of the basketball stadium and

938
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: she didn't want to go in. She's like, I don't

939
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: want to play, I don't want to be there. I

940
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 2: don't want to be here anymore. Mom, I just don't

941
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 2: want to be here anymore. And I said it, oh,

942
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 2: you know, like the world would just be such a

943
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 2: sad place for me if you weren't in it, Like

944
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 2: I just can't even imagine what that would look like.

945
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 2: And you've got so many things to look forward to,

946
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 2: and so what what do I have to look forward to?

947
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 2: I said, Well, one day, you're going to have a

948
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 2: job that you're going to love, because she always loved

949
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: helping people. Yeah, you know, I said, you know, you'll

950
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 2: have a job and you'll you'll love working. You like

951
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 2: being helpful and doing those things. And you know, one

952
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 2: day you might get married, or you know, you might not,

953
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 2: or you might have children or you might don't And

954
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 2: she said, I am never having children. And I said why,

955
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 2: like why, you know, and she goes, why would I

956
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 2: have a baby so that they can have this sort

957
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 2: of thing happened to them? And I was really thrown

958
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 2: like I was like, holy mom, like, you know, I've

959
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 2: never considered that, you know. And I said to her,

960
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 2: you know, what's you know, like that just because it

961
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 2: happened to you doesn't mean it's going to happen to them.

962
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 2: And she said, that happened to you, and it happened

963
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 2: to me, and you know, because I had shared with

964
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 2: the girls that sometimes bad things happen, but you can

965
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 2: still have this amazing life and that I was an

966
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 2: example of that. And yeah, it was that was shocking

967
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 2: to you that from you know, a little person. But look,

968
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 2: you know, as I said, she's won't really hard. They've

969
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 2: all were really had it. It has been up and down,

970
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 2: and Rose has been really open about you know, the

971
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 2: last few years for her have been really challenging, particularly

972
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: as the older girls have you moved out or you know,

973
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 2: gone on to different things in their life. You know,

974
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 2: she's sort of had that opportunity where she's been able

975
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 2: to see things differently from from an older point of

976
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 2: view and understand what happened and try and get a

977
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 2: head around that, which has been really tricky. But you know,

978
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: they all just they put in the work to try

979
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 2: and contribute and be good humans and live their best life.

980
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 2: You know they're good because we don't want to bog

981
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 2: ourselves in that.

982
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: We've talked about how amazing they are, but what an

983
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: amazing mum you are. Like everything you've you've you've helped

984
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: them get to that point. You've supported them every step

985
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: of the way, You've held their vulnerabilities and every single

986
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: moment they've had, down to your daughter feeling open to

987
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: say something like I don't want to have babies and

988
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 1: you're supporting us through that.

989
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 2: Like they couldn't have done that without you. No, But

990
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 2: you know, I'm very well supported too, you know, like

991
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 2: I've got Brent, who's incredible, and I've got a really

992
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: supporting family. And you know, like when you do things

993
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:18,479
Speaker 2: like this, you have friends either step in or step out,

994
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 2: and I absolutely get it because it's it's hard, Like

995
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 2: it's hard, and you know, like there were people that

996
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 2: some of my friends had little children or were having babies,

997
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: and I couldn't talk to them about this. You know,

998
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 2: you're already as you know, as you know when you

999
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 2: have kids, you know, you're already a bit vulnerable anyway,

1000
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 2: Like you feel like you're half crazy half the time.

1001
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 2: So it was really important for me not to burden people.

1002
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, look, I was so well support. I felt

1003
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: like I had support. My work were amazing, and I

1004
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: kept at it and I did. I loved the work

1005
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 2: that I did, and I loved working with young people,

1006
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 2: which is what I was doing at the time, and

1007
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 2: I you know, so I think in that keeping things normal,

1008
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 2: you just have to keep moving. Yeah, you know. And

1009
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 2: there's people who've been a little bit critical because we

1010
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 2: do share the story in that, you know, they sort

1011
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 2: of say, oh, because you talk about it, you're anchoring

1012
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 2: yourself in it. But I do disagree with that because

1013
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 2: the reality is that this is always going to be

1014
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 2: part of who we are.

1015
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: But I do think that if there's any good to

1016
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 1: come from this story, it is the fire that it

1017
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: put in all of your bellies two help make change

1018
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: for the kids that would come after you.

1019
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 2: Where did all of that start? So it actually started

1020
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 2: when we're in court. So Glenn who was our detective

1021
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,439
Speaker 2: who has become he's like family to us. Yea. He

1022
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 2: had been in the Child to Be Squad for like

1023
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 2: over a decade at that point, and he was telling

1024
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: me about this witness intermediary program that they were running

1025
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 2: in Sydney and Newcastle. So it was a program where

1026
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 2: a person who was trained so they would either be

1027
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 2: like a psychologist or speech therapist or even teachers and

1028
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 2: people like that who know kids, were trained to help

1029
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 2: the child give the best evidence. So they would be

1030
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,919
Speaker 2: part of the initial process. So when a child goes

1031
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 2: in and gives their initial statement, and then they would

1032
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 2: then be part of the giving that initial evidence, interjecting

1033
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 2: if you questions were too difficult, if it was outside

1034
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 2: the scope of that child's understanding, really making it so

1035
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 2: that the child could participate equitably in the process. And

1036
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 2: also a constant person, a constant person the child can

1037
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 2: get tonight, that's it. So they were there. It's court appointed,

1038
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 2: so they were there for that or within six months.

1039
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 2: The child would then be cross examined by someone who

1040
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 2: was court appointed as well, and that would be filmed

1041
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 2: and that was then their evidence for court, so they

1042
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 2: never had to go to court.

1043
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 1: So everything's pre recorded.

1044
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 2: Everything's pre recorded. So that was so they were doing

1045
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 2: that in Sydney and Newcastle, and that program started in

1046
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, so we weren't eligible because we were already

1047
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 2: in that process. And it was reviewed in twenty eighteen

1048
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 2: and they said it was best practice. You know, the

1049
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: rights of the child were being you know, adhered to.

1050
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 2: It wasn't jeopardizing the rights of the offended to a

1051
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 2: fair trial. Everyone was happy about it. Defense prosecution, everyone

1052
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 2: was really happy about how it was looking. And so

1053
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 2: they extended the program again for another three years in

1054
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 2: Sydney Newcastle. Right anyway, so I had sort of been

1055
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 2: following along and see what was happening. So the day

1056
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 2: that we got that, Brent actually came up during the trial,

1057
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 2: like when we were waiting for the verdict, I started

1058
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 2: reading about it and then I thought, I'm just going

1059
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 2: to write a letter to our local member, so we

1060
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,919
Speaker 2: hadn't even had a verdict at that point, just to say, look,

1061
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 2: this is what's happened, and I can't believe that this

1062
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 2: has happened to my children, and there's a better way,

1063
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 2: so why aren't we doing the better way? So I

1064
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 2: did that and you know, as I said, that was

1065
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 2: before we had the verdict, and I heard back from

1066
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 2: the local member that I needed to get in touch

1067
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 2: with the Attorney General. So then I started writing to

1068
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 2: the Attorney General and I got these really nice response

1069
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 2: telling me that, oh, you know, we have this program

1070
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: where the evidence is pre recorded and then the children

1071
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 2: are in a separate room and they're cross examined by

1072
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 2: the So everything that we had been through that I

1073
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 2: said was not working, that was what they were giving

1074
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 2: me somewhere from the country. This is what we do

1075
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 2: for you guys. And you're like, well you didn't dip.

1076
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 2: I was like, well, it sucks like that. That system

1077
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 2: that you reckon is really good for those kids in

1078
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 2: regional areas sucks and you know that because you've got

1079
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 2: a different program running in Sydney and Newcastle that is

1080
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 2: working and he's less traumatizing. So it's been your little

1081
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 2: side project. So I've been doing this little side project

1082
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 2: for six years. And then Rose came to me and

1083
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 2: said she was like, oh, Mom, I want to do

1084
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 2: some fundraising. And I was like, oh, okay, who do

1085
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 2: you want a fundraise for? And she talked about Brave Hearts,

1086
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 2: which is the you know, Empower Protect educ Child Abuse

1087
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 2: that was set up in Queensland by Hettie Johnson back

1088
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 2: in the day. So we had used a lot of

1089
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 2: their resources when we were talking three things and trying

1090
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 2: to advocate for the kids and whatever. So she wanted

1091
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 2: to raise money for them, and I was like, okay,

1092
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 2: so what do you want to do. I want to

1093
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 2: ride my bike around Australia. Yeah, that's a long one

1094
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 2: that's probably not going to happen rhades, Like, I know

1095
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 2: you don't like school, but that's not a thing anyway.

1096
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 2: So she said, yeah, well I want to raise money

1097
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 2: for them, and she said, what about if I ride

1098
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 2: from Sydney to Coffs Harbor because that detective had moved

1099
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 2: to cross Croffs Harbor and it was like steal along

1100
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 2: ride rods, Like we need to nut this out and

1101
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 2: I said to and Pitt was on the journey then

1102
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 2: by that point too, Oh that would be really good. Yeah,

1103
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 2: we should do that. And I said, okay, well, if

1104
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 2: we do something like this, what's something else that you

1105
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 2: think people need to know about, What's you know, what

1106
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 2: you experienced? And they were like both of them pretty

1107
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 2: much at the same time, said Court is shit. And

1108
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, tell me more about that. And

1109
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 2: then they sort of talked about, you know, how horrible

1110
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 2: it was and being in there for days and you

1111
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 2: know how they couldn't have anyone in there with them,

1112
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 2: and you know, so all the things that we're basically

1113
01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 2: just talked about, they named that as the things that

1114
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 2: were challenge And so then I told them about this

1115
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 2: other thing and I said, you know, do you think

1116
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 2: something like that could work? And they're like, oh, yeah,

1117
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 2: that would have made it easier. And the other thing

1118
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 2: is it wasn't about being easier. It was about that participation,

1119
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 2: participating equitably. That's the biggest thing that I want people

1120
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 2: to understand is this isn't about making it easier. It's

1121
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 2: about giving them what they needed at that time, that

1122
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 2: moment in time.

1123
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: It's protecting the childlike yea, that nature of them.

1124
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 2: Recognizing that they're not adults. Yeah. Anyway, they were quite

1125
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 2: enthusiastic about the whole thing, and I said, all right,

1126
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: well let's see what we can do. And so we said,

1127
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 2: let's make a petition. So I wrote a petition and

1128
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 2: then I thought, well, I may as well go and

1129
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 2: see our local member again. Who happened to be someone

1130
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 2: known to me. So we went and saw him justin

1131
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 2: Clancy and went through and he had known us for

1132
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 2: some time and had no knowledge of what had happened,

1133
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 2: you know, as a family. So he was very understanding

1134
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 2: and understanding distressed, you know, by the whole thing. So

1135
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 2: we wrote the petition and he presented the petition to Parliament.

1136
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 2: But then we realized that the girls actually couldn't talk

1137
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 2: about what happened to.

1138
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 1: Them because their names were suppressed by the.

1139
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 2: Court because of their ages. Yeah, so we had to

1140
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 2: talk about that, and I didn't know how to get

1141
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 2: around that anyway, So I reached out to the let

1142
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 2: Us Speak campaign, which is really Nina Fanel.

1143
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: Yes, for listeners, Nina Fanel is an incredible advocate for

1144
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 1: sexual assault victim's children in that space. She is a

1145
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 1: victim survivor herself, and Let Her Speak campaign was exactly this.

1146
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: It was she was the one behind Grace Tame who

1147
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: helped Grace be able to tell her story, which I'm

1148
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 1: assuming is how you found her. Yes, Yeah, so you

1149
01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: reached out to Nina. So I reached out.

1150
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 2: To Nina and I actually sent an email to probably

1151
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 2: fifteen different organizations, trying to get somebody to just tell me,

1152
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 2: like how much trouble are we going to get in

1153
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 2: if we say our name?

1154
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 1: You know?

1155
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,200
Speaker 2: And so I reached out to Nina and it was

1156
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 2: Mark Lawyers at the time, because Michael Bradley had also

1157
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 2: been involved in that in that case. And they got

1158
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 2: back to me within fifteen minutes. Both of them. Wow,

1159
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 2: and and you know, we've since reflected on that, and

1160
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 2: Nina was like, well, you didn't just come to me

1161
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 2: with a story. He came to me with a solution.

1162
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 2: So that was sort of the point of difference. Like

1163
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 2: we it was like, yeah, this happened, but here's a

1164
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 2: way to make it easier for other people. So we

1165
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 2: did that and we so she kind of was doing

1166
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 2: stuff in the background, and we had to get Rose's

1167
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,439
Speaker 2: name cleared by the court. So Pitt was old enough

1168
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 2: at seventeen, so once she hit seven seventeen, she could speak,

1169
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 2: but it was because Rose was underage, she couldn't speak

1170
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 2: about Rose. So it was all very complicated and convoluted.

1171
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 2: And Rose actually summed it up really well. She said, Mum,

1172
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:17,679
Speaker 2: I had a man telling me that I wasn't allowed

1173
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 2: to talk about this for a really long time. And

1174
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,679
Speaker 2: then I went to court and I had men standing

1175
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 2: in front of me telling me that I had to

1176
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 2: talk about this for days, and now they're telling me

1177
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 2: that I can't talk about this again. And She's like,

1178
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 2: it's my story.

1179
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 1: And the law, like to be clear, is there to

1180
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 1: protect child victims. But if the child victim is saying

1181
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 1: I would like to speak about it, yeah, it's bizarre

1182
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: that you then have to go to court and pay

1183
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:50,440
Speaker 1: a lot of money, yeah, to try and get that removed,

1184
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:51,679
Speaker 1: which is what you guys did.

1185
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well well Nina ye not Needa, they did for us. Yeah,

1186
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:00,120
Speaker 2: And look, and it was it was a good processes

1187
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 2: because they at all times they wanted to make sure

1188
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:10,799
Speaker 2: that this was you know, Rose's decision and Pip's decision,

1189
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 2: and there were lots of jumping off points, you know

1190
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 2: where if they went, oh no, this is too much,

1191
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 2: I can't do it. You know, there were all of

1192
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 2: those protections in place for them to bow out or

1193
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 2: to opt out if they didn't want to. So you know,

1194
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:29,679
Speaker 2: that was a process in itself, and fortunately they didn't

1195
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 2: have to go to court. Good for that to happen,

1196
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 2: because I think that physical having to go there would

1197
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 2: have been really tricky. So we had this petition with

1198
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 2: in New Southwalla's parliament for probably three months leading up

1199
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:51,639
Speaker 2: to the bike ride, and it wasn't gaining signatures in the.

1200
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 1: Way that it felt like it was because how many

1201
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 1: signatures do you need to make a difference.

1202
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 2: So for it to be spoken about in parliament you

1203
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 2: need twenty thousand EASi signatures.

1204
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the idea was we go public with our

1205
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 1: story on the media.

1206
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:10,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, we get more signatures then as right. Yeah, So

1207
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 2: we tried to do it without the media first, but

1208
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 2: it wasn't gaining attraction in the way that it could

1209
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:19,599
Speaker 2: because again it wasn't personal, right, it was just you know,

1210
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:24,719
Speaker 2: this obscure thing without faces. So we did the bike ride.

1211
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 2: We started at the Downing Center and we yeah, the

1212
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:31,600
Speaker 2: girls rode over to the Harbor Bridge and all that

1213
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 2: sort of thing and yeah, and then we went and

1214
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 2: they did all the trails and it was actually at

1215
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 2: the end of it that we found out that we

1216
01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 2: got the news that they could use their names. Oh wow.

1217
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:46,600
Speaker 2: So they finished that and then we went home and

1218
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:49,640
Speaker 2: we came back and did you know, the media and

1219
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 2: things for the letter the Justice shouldn't hurt.

1220
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 1: Which was Nina's campaign campaign after.

1221
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 2: Let Her Speak. Yeah, so that was the campaign that

1222
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 2: the girls were the face off and our family were

1223
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 2: the faith of that one.

1224
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 1: It is one thing to say let's talk to the media,

1225
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 1: and that's another thing to then have that story out there.

1226
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:12,120
Speaker 1: How did how was it for your family? How did

1227
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:13,479
Speaker 1: the girls handle that attention?

1228
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:18,800
Speaker 2: Well, we always do just what analysis of things, so

1229
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 2: we had a bit of you know, what's the strength

1230
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,720
Speaker 2: of this, you know, and obviously the benefits were that

1231
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 2: changes could potentially made for other children so that they

1232
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 2: didn't have to experience what the girls did. You know.

1233
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,639
Speaker 2: The weaknesses and the threats were really around what would

1234
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 2: be said and done to them, because you know, they

1235
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 2: had kept it relatively private. There weren't that many people,

1236
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 2: even in their friendship circles that knew about what had happened.

1237
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 2: Our family and our good friends were obviously aware of it,

1238
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 2: but not everybody that you know, clearly, not everyone we

1239
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 2: know knew what had happened. So that was a threat

1240
01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 2: for us that that would happen. But yeah, as I said,

1241
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 2: the strengths and opportunities were that there would be a

1242
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 2: different way of doing things for kids moving forward, and

1243
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:11,640
Speaker 2: you know, they were really proud to be able to

1244
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 2: be part of that. So you know, when this story broke,

1245
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 2: they only received positive feedback and you know, even a

1246
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 2: couple of parents of the kids were you know, came

1247
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 2: to me and we're like, it all makes sense now,

1248
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 2: you know, like everything sort of fell into place for

1249
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 2: people around us. The story broke in the November. By

1250
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:39,599
Speaker 2: the end of December, I think there was sixty nine

1251
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 2: thousand signature. Wow. Yeah, so you know, and people were saying,

1252
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 2: it's a no brainer, this is a no brainer. Why

1253
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 2: aren't we doing this?

1254
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:51,800
Speaker 1: And then the premier announced the Premier announced in Tree

1255
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 1: sixty four.

1256
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 2: Point three million dollars to expand the program so that

1257
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 2: all children in New South Wales had a chance to

1258
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 2: participate equidibly in the legal process. What a win. Yes,

1259
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 2: so it was a huge win. And we went to

1260
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:10,439
Speaker 2: Parliament House and stood in front of the nations media

1261
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 2: and made a statement and Rose stood in front of them,

1262
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 2: no paper, no no nothing, and charmed everyone and said

1263
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 2: I want to see this go national. We're still waiting

1264
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 2: for that to happen.

1265
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:27,120
Speaker 1: I was going to say where we are now, because

1266
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 1: that was a few years ago, twenty six now.

1267
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's three years ago. So I have checked in.

1268
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 2: I checked in with Michael Daily at the daniliquin Ute

1269
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 2: Muster to make sure that it was still, you know,

1270
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 2: a priority that this was going to happen. We attended

1271
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:49,559
Speaker 2: the opening of the Court for Children, which is down

1272
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 2: on Liverpool straight across from World Square. There's actually one

1273
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:55,920
Speaker 2: of the oldest courthouses in Australia is there, and they've

1274
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 2: converted that so that it's a court that children go

1275
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:02,760
Speaker 2: to when they're mean that evidence. I just want to

1276
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:05,840
Speaker 2: know that it continues and that the government continue to

1277
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 2: fund the program.

1278
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,560
Speaker 1: So right now, is it not all over Australia.

1279
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 2: It's still in only selected South Wales just so of

1280
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:16,439
Speaker 2: course because you know the legal but it is different

1281
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:19,760
Speaker 2: all across New South Wales. But yeah, every child can

1282
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 2: do that. Yeah yeah, yeah, so it look it is.

1283
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 2: It's a huge change. And you know people are like, oh,

1284
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:29,639
Speaker 2: it's not it hasn't done anything for your kids. Well yeah,

1285
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 2: actually it has. Like you know, they've got that satisfaction.

1286
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 2: You know that other children don't have to go through

1287
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:36,760
Speaker 2: what they did.

1288
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:40,920
Speaker 1: Well, you haven't put your fighting hat down to politics

1289
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:45,559
Speaker 1: I have that you're running as an independent in your

1290
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 1: local area.

1291
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 2: I am so Look, I think if we had had

1292
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 2: this conversation even three years ago, if someone said, oh,

1293
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,200
Speaker 2: you're going to be running as an independent candidate for

1294
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 2: the state of Pharah, I would have said, you're kidding yourself.

1295
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 2: There is no way that I would do that. Like,

1296
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 2: being a politician has never been on my dance card,

1297
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 2: but it's sort of being a representative of people is

1298
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,799
Speaker 2: by telling story and getting people to not just understand

1299
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 2: an issue, but to feel the impact of those things

1300
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 2: so that they are inspired to make change or support

1301
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:29,679
Speaker 2: the making of change. I think that's why I'm doing

1302
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:30,519
Speaker 2: what I'm doing now.

1303
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 1: Well, like with your story, if most people don't go

1304
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 1: through the system, so how would they ever know that

1305
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 1: there's these issues unless we talk about it.

1306
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 2: How are your girls going now? You've got a.

1307
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 1: Seventeen year old and your others are in their twenties.

1308
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Maggie's turning twenty three this year. She's left

1309
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:53,360
Speaker 2: the nest, so she's currently living in Melbourne, living her

1310
01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:56,840
Speaker 2: best poor life. And she tells me, Look, she's just

1311
01:15:57,240 --> 01:16:03,240
Speaker 2: an amazing person. She's beautiful, she's so supportive and She's

1312
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:06,960
Speaker 2: caring and kind and knows how to laugh at herself,

1313
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 2: which is very handy for her. She's great. Pip is

1314
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 2: studying paramedicine and nursing, so she's doing that. She's sort

1315
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 2: of between Melbourne and home. She's doing a bit of both.

1316
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:23,680
Speaker 2: And she turns twenty one in April, which is exciting

1317
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:28,080
Speaker 2: for her. And yeah, Roses in year twelve she plays

1318
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 2: AFL and she, yeah, she's doing that fitness and things

1319
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 2: like that at school. She's hoping to go into the

1320
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 2: police force one day. That's sort of her big plan.

1321
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 2: But look, they're all great. They have their days, as

1322
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:48,000
Speaker 2: we all do, and you know, they work through this

1323
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 2: and they recognize that. You know, some days are harder

1324
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:54,599
Speaker 2: than others, but most days are really good. So that's

1325
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:56,599
Speaker 2: sort of where we're at. And Brenda and I are

1326
01:16:56,640 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 2: just getting old. How proud are you as their mum? Oh?

1327
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 2: I think they're fabulous, don't you worry. They've also been

1328
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:11,439
Speaker 2: teenage girls. They have really tested the boundaries from time

1329
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 2: to time. But look, I'm super proud of them, and

1330
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:18,600
Speaker 2: I'm proud that this isn't their whole story, this is

1331
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 2: just a little part of it. I'm proud that they

1332
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:25,599
Speaker 2: stood up and made the change that they did. I'm

1333
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 2: proud that they can get up and stand in front

1334
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:35,400
Speaker 2: of adults and the media and the premiere and say

1335
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,280
Speaker 2: we're okay, but we needed to make this change to

1336
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:39,880
Speaker 2: the other kids.

1337
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 1: Thank you to Michelle for sharing her family's story with us.

1338
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:45,720
Speaker 1: If you want to see visuals from this episode, head

1339
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 1: over to our Instagram page at True Crime Conversations, and

1340
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 1: for in depth case explainers, follow us on TikTok under

1341
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:55,519
Speaker 1: the same name. True Crime Conversations is hosted by me

1342
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 1: Jemma Bath. Our senior producer is Tarlie Blackman, the group

1343
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 1: executive producer is Alaria Brophy, and there's been audio design

1344
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 1: by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be

1345
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:08,680
Speaker 1: back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

1346
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:14,800
Speaker 3: If anything mentioned in this episode has raised concerns for you,

1347
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:17,920
Speaker 3: or if you need support, you can contact a Lifeline

1348
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,799
Speaker 3: on thirteen eleven fourteen or Kids Helpline on one eight hundred,

1349
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 3: double five one eight hundred. True Crime Conversations acknowledges the

1350
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:28,920
Speaker 3: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast was

1351
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:29,519
Speaker 3: recorded on