1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: On July fifteenth, nineteen seventy six, kids from a school 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: in the tiny regional town of Chowchilla, more than three 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: hundred kilometers north of la in California, are getting ready 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: to head home from summer school. It's hot and they've 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: been swimming that day. Some wearing their swimsuits still holding 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: their towels, jump on the bus that will take them 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: back home to their families. Sitting behind the wheel of 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: the bright yellow school bus is Frank Edward Ray, known 9 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: to everyone in town as Ed. All the kids know 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: and love Ed. He's been driving the school bus for 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: so long he knew the kid's parents from when he 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: drove them when they were kids too. They climb aboard 13 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: and settle in for the trip back home. They turn 14 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: onto Treeline Avenue twenty one, where the bus abruptly comes 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: to a stop. Sitting in the middle of the road 16 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: is a white van. Its door is wide open and 17 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: it's blocking the bus's path. Ed waits patiently. Maybe they've 18 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: broken down and need a minute to push the van 19 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: out of the way, But instead, a man wearing a 20 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: stocking over his face and holding a sworn off double 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: barrel shotgun emerges from the van and points the weapon 22 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: at Ed through the driver's window. Open the door, he commands, 23 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: and moved to the back of the bus. I'm Claire 24 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: Murphy and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast 25 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. When the gunman 27 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: boarded the bus alongside another to drive it away from 28 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: the scene, the twenty six kids on board and Ed 29 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: the driver had no idea where they were headed or why. 30 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: Pretty soon after they'd been intercepted, the bus, followed by 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: the van that had stopped them on their journey, was 32 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: eventually driven into the dry bed of what's referred to 33 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: as a slew, a natural irrigation channel with sky high 34 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: bamboo growing in its sandy bed, a perfect place to 35 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: hide a bright yellow vehicle of that size. Another van 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: was there waiting for them, and one by one, the 37 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: children and Ed were transferred into the two vehicles. The 38 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: windows inside were blacked out, the interior line with soundproofing 39 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: their ability to communicate with their kidnappers. Cut off by 40 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: plywood barriers. They could see nothing, but they could hear 41 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: each other. Some of the children were crying and calling 42 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: out for their mothers. Some threatened the kidnappers with the 43 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: wrath of dads who would not rest until they were 44 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: found and justice handed out. Others sat in silence, too 45 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: scared to make a sound. The next more than thirty 46 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: hours would leave those kids with a lifetime of trauma 47 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: that they still deal with to this day, a fear 48 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: stemming from the time that they were buried alive. Fox 49 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: News Channels San Francisco based senior correspondent Claudia Cowan is 50 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: the host of the podcast Nightmare in Chowchilla, telling the 51 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: chilling story of twenty six children one bus driver held 52 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: for ransom by men with a very surprising background. She 53 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: joins us now, Claudia, thank you so much for joining 54 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: us to tell us the story about the Chowchilla bus kidnapping. 55 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: I would love to first get your perspective on what 56 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: the town of Chowchilla is actually like, because you have 57 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: physically been there, although it was, you know, forty five 58 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: years after this incident occurred. But do you feel like 59 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: it's changed a lot, as those small regional towns tend 60 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: to not do since the nineteen seventies when this happened. 61 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's still an agricultural, mostly farming community. It's still 62 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: a small town. It's got that small town charm and feel. 63 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: A lot of American flags, a lot of churches, not 64 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 2: many buildings over three stories tall. But obviously you have 65 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: a lot more retail, a lot more hotels, a lot 66 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: more businesses coming in. But it really is still quintessential, 67 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: you Knowentral Valley of California and the vibe, the smells, 68 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: the heat during the summer, you know, and I was 69 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: there in July and it does get hot and you know, 70 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: the tumbleweeds are blowing around. That I think was very 71 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: much the scene back in nineteen seventy six as well. Well. 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: Your podcast definitely sets that scene with you know, you 73 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: can almost feel the heat through the audio because there's 74 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: like the crickets chirping in the background and you can 75 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: feel that kind of it's very Australian to hear that too, 76 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: in that heat of the middle of summer, which is 77 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: when this occurred. When these children were kidnapped from their 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: bus ride home. They're on summer camp and then they're 79 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: transferred into vans and taken away. And you did actually 80 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: speak to at least three of the children who were 81 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: on the bus that day, Mike, Larry and Jennifer. Can 82 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: you describe from what they told you the conditions inside 83 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: those vans when they were first kidnapped? 84 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: Oh? Well, the vans were black. All the seats had 85 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: been taken out of these vans and then plywood or 86 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 2: paper or something was put in front of the windows 87 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 2: so that there was it was completely pitch black in there, 88 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: and there were there was no water, no food, certainly 89 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 2: no bathrooms. At one point, Jennifer remembers, the vans stopped 90 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 2: and she smelled gasoline, so they obviously fueled up during 91 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: their eleven plus hour jaunt, with no idea of where 92 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: they're going, why they've been taken, and the little you know, 93 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,799 Speaker 2: this was summer school and a lot of the kids 94 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: in these vans were little, I mean, you know, five, six, 95 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: seven years old, and they were all clinging to each other, 96 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: and they were clinging to this bus driver Ed Ray 97 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: as the only other adult, and it was just frightening 98 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: for them. I mean you imagine a child's worst nightmare, 99 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 2: you know, locked in a moving car with no idea, 100 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: where you are not being able to see, getting no breaks, 101 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: very little air, no water, no food. It was just 102 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: horrendous for these kids. 103 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: It's interesting to the way that the kidnap is transferred 104 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: them from that bus to those vans, because it really 105 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: left little evidence for the police when they did actually 106 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: locate the bus. 107 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: Well, one of the vans had somewhat side swiped the 108 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: bus and left a little bit of a blue or green, 109 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 2: dark colored paint on the bus, So officials knew that 110 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: they were looking for a vehicle that might be a 111 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: dark color. But what's interesting is that shortly after the 112 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: discovery of the bus in that river slough, it rained 113 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: and that little bit of evidence, that little discoloration of 114 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: paint was washed away. This was nineteen seventy six and 115 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 2: forensic evidence gathering has changed a lot. But it's a 116 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: good thing they found that bus when they did, so 117 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 2: that they knew that they were going to be looking 118 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: for a dark colored vehicle. 119 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: So these kids in these vans, as you mentioned, it's 120 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: the middle of Samma, it's very hot. They haven't been 121 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: given a break to go to the toilet. Even they're 122 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: having to do that in said the van with they 123 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: literally cannot see their hands in front of their faces. 124 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: Nearly twelve hours passes and they finally pull up. What 125 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: actually happens to them when they arrive at their destination? 126 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: Where even are they? 127 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: So they end up after this long, you know, eleven 128 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: hour drive, just willy nilly around northern California, they end 129 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: up in a rock quarry in a city called Livermore. 130 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: And this rock quarry was owned by one of the 131 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: kidnappers father fred Wood's father owned this rock quarry. Of course, 132 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: the kids and ed Ray have no idea where they are, 133 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: but they're ordered to get out of these vans, and 134 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: one child at a time is taken out of the 135 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 2: van and ordered to climb down a ladder into a 136 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: hole that's been carved out in the ground. And this 137 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: is a gunpoint, mind you, These kidnappers have guns. And 138 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 2: so one by one the children come out. They are 139 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: told to say their name and to give some sort 140 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: of an article a personal effect to their kidnapper, and 141 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: then they are told to climb down a ladder into 142 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: another larger van, one big moving van as it turned out, 143 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: that had been buried under the ground inside this rock quarry. 144 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: So one by one the kids all climb down the ladder, 145 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: and after the last one, the kidnappers throw down some flashlights, 146 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 2: and they pull up the ladder and they seal up 147 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: the top hole with a manhole cover, and then they 148 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 2: put heavy, heavy truck batteries on top of the manhole cover, 149 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: and then they build a box and fill it in 150 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: with dart above that. So essentially, these twenty seven people, 151 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: these twenty six kids and their bus driver are buried alive. 152 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: It's just like, you think about this, right, and you think, 153 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 2: you know, in what nightmare scenario does something like this happen, 154 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 2: But it happened to these kids. It's just incredible. What 155 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 2: happened to them. 156 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: What did these survivors, he spoke to, describe the conditions 157 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: as being like when they were inside that moving van 158 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: under the ground. 159 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: Well, at least in this situation, they had some light, 160 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: They had some flashlights, and they had some batteries for 161 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: these flashlights. There were a tables set up with some 162 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: cereal cheerios, life cereal things like that. There were jugs 163 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 2: of water, and there were a lot of mattresses, so 164 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: you know, clearly this had been planned out for some time. Also, 165 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: some makeshift toilets had been kind of carved out in 166 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: the wheel well of the tire of this moving van. 167 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: That had been buried. So they did have you know, 168 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: if you can call them amenities, I don't know, but 169 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: they did at least have food and water and light, 170 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: and there was also a fan to recirculate, so they 171 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 2: had some sort of air to breathe. But I tell you, 172 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: the batteries on you know what started to happen over time. 173 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 2: The dust started to fall, that fan started to not 174 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 2: work so well, the batteries you know, started to go 175 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 2: out on these on these flashlights. So so the the 176 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: these small creature comforts did not last a very long time. 177 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: And of course the kids went through the water and 178 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: the food right away because they were starving. You know, 179 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: they had been on their way home from summer school 180 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: and hadn't eaten probably since lunch that day, and now 181 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: it's late into the night and they're probably starving. So 182 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: all of all of the food and water disappeared pretty quickly, 183 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: and then the lights started to go to. 184 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy. 185 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with journalists Claudia Cowen, host of the podcast 186 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: Nightmare in Chowchilla. Up next, Claudia tells us how exactly 187 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: police were able to start investigating a case as unusual 188 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: as this one. So while this is happening, what's happening 189 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: back in chow Chilla. The bus is found fairly quickly, 190 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: as you mentioned it rained, so some of the evidence 191 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: gets washed away. What are the parents being told? And 192 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: how a police actually even starting this investigation because it 193 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: is such an unusual event. 194 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: Well, when they found the bus kind of shielded in 195 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: this river slough and no kids on it and no 196 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 2: bus driver, the parents were what in the world is 197 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: going on here? Where are they? So the sheriff at 198 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: the time was this real character named Ed Bates, and 199 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: he always wore a cowboy hat and he had, you know, 200 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 2: a hole stern cowboy boots. He was the right man 201 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: for the job, and he was on this case right away, 202 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: and he told these parents right away, we're going to 203 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: find these kids. And so he you know, there was 204 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 2: no cell phones and no GPS in those days. He 205 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: had to rely on relationships and gut instinct, and he 206 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: had a lot of luck on his side. He put 207 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: out something of a description because they did know that 208 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 2: there were two tracks of tire tracks leading away from 209 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 2: the bus, and they knew that they were looking for 210 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 2: some sort of a dark colored vehicle. That information went 211 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: out and a real estate woman who was very smart, 212 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: and of course this is all over the news right now, 213 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: but she remembered seeing suspicious men acting weirdly around a 214 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: couple of dark colored vans and she wrote down the 215 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: license plate. If you can believe that, that's the luck 216 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 2: part of this whole story. So then from that Ed 217 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: Bates was able to track down where these vans originated, 218 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: who they were sold to. They had some names to 219 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 2: go on, and that was definitely that part of the investigation. Meantime, 220 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 2: the kidnappers had been driving around, obviously with these kids 221 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 2: all night in these vans, and they were trying to 222 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: call into the sheriff's office to make a five million 223 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 2: dollar ransom demand because they felt that this would be 224 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: easy money. They had heard that California had a state surplus, 225 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: a budget surplus of five million dollars in that the 226 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 2: money wouldn't be missed. But because all the media and 227 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 2: the parents and all the attention on this store sor 228 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 2: was tying up all the phone lines at the police department, 229 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: the kidnappers couldn't get their calls through, if you can 230 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: believe it, So they decided to go back to their 231 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: homes closer to San Francisco and take a nap, and 232 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 2: that's when Mike Marshall and Ed Ray managed to pull 233 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: off really the miracle of the century and devise an 234 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: escape from this underground tomb where they've been buried alive. 235 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: I think this is something we have to understand too. 236 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: It's nineteen seventy six. So the police department that they're 237 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: calling into, which is also in a regional area so 238 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: it's not a big centralized city, had like one or 239 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,599 Speaker 1: two phone lines at the time, and you've got twenty 240 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: six missing kids with twenty six sets of parents and 241 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: other family and members of the public all calling into 242 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,119 Speaker 1: that one police station. So the chances of those kidnappers 243 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: ever getting through on that phone line were almost. 244 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 2: Zero, exactly right they had. They kept stopping and trying 245 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: to phone in theirs and they just couldn't get through. 246 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: So they went home, took a nap, and when they 247 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 2: woke up and turned on the television, that's when they 248 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 2: got the shock of their lives. 249 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, we'll find out who these people are in 250 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: just a second, but let's go to what actually is 251 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: happening underground. So twenty six kids and their bus driver ed. 252 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: They first of all go through the motions of like, 253 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is it, We're going to die 254 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: to then at least one of those kids saying not today, 255 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: can you talk us through exactly what happens in that moment? 256 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: So yeah, and they would console each other by singing 257 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: and praying together. I think they took turn sleeping when 258 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: they could. So the kidnappers had done a dry run 259 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: on this and they had really, you know, specifically chosen 260 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: this particular bus to take hostage because they saw that 261 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: it was almost always a filled with little kids. What 262 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: they didn't count on was on July sixteenth, one kid 263 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: named Mirk Marshall would be on this bus. And he 264 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 2: was on this s bus because he was in trouble 265 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: with his mom and his mom was I'm not picking 266 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 2: you up. You got to take the bus home from 267 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: summer school. So Mike Marshall ended up being on this 268 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: particular bus on this particular day. And he's not a 269 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: little kid, and he's fourteen years old, and he's strong. 270 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: He's a rodeo, a rodeo kiddie comes from a rodeo family. Strong, 271 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: strapping kid fairly new to Childchilla, braver than anybody I've 272 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: ever met. And he's on that bus that day. And 273 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: Larry Park, another survivor that I spoke to, said he 274 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: doesn't know what would have happened if Mike Marshall was 275 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 2: not on that bus that day, But because he was 276 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: on that bus that day, Larry is alive. So ed Ray, 277 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: the bus driver, was pretty much of a mindset of 278 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: we're down here, kids, get used to it, We're never 279 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: getting out. Say your prayers. In his words, according to 280 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: Mike and Larry, we're going to kick the bucket down here. 281 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: So Mike Marshall said, well, if we're going to die 282 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: down here, we might as well die trying to get out, 283 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: And he found some deep reservoir of courage and bravery 284 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: to devise a plan to break apart the mattresses, the 285 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: box springs and to stack them up on top of 286 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: each other so that he could climb and try to 287 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: touch the ceiling and try to figure out about this 288 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: manhole cover that was covering the hole where the latter 289 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: had been where they all climbed down. And over a 290 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: period of I think thirteen fourteen fifteen hours, this kid, 291 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: Mike Marshall kept pushing at the manhole cover, and remember 292 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: they're heavy truck batteries on top of it. But he managed, ever, 293 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: you know, one inch at a time, to move this 294 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: manhole cover to the side, and then the kids were 295 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 2: cheering him on. Dust was falling, and all of a 296 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: sudden the manhole you know, and he slipped his arm 297 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: even past this manhole cover. It could have if it 298 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 2: had fallen, it would have broken his arm off. These 299 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 2: things are so heavy. Anyway, he finally manages to move 300 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: the cover aside, get the batteries off, and then he's 301 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: looking at the inside of this box that had been 302 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 2: built on top of this whole manhole cover battery setup, 303 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: and he takes some plywood from the mattresses that the 304 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: kids had broken up, and he's digging at this dirt 305 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 2: and it's falling down on him, on everybody, but he 306 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: keeps digging, digging, digging, and finally the last piece of 307 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 2: dirt falls in, and as Larry describes it, it was 308 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: a shaft of sunlight that with the dust in the 309 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: sunlight sparkling and fresh air. He said, in that moment, 310 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: there was hope. There was hope. And after that Mike 311 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 2: was able to poke his head out of the ground, 312 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 2: look around, see there were no kidnappers there, and finally 313 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: start pulling the kids out one at a time so 314 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 2: that they got above ground. Every one of those kids survived, 315 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 2: and ed Ray survived too, And it was just a 316 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 2: miracle that Mike was on the bus that because the 317 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: next oldest kid, I think, was like ten, and without Mike, 318 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: there was just no way that they would have been 319 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: able to devise that escape. And clearly the kidnappers had 320 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: gone home and gone to bed with you know, no 321 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: care in the world for these kids. It was just 322 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 2: a miracle that they all got out. And what's interesting 323 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: when they finally did make it back to Chowchilla, one 324 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: of the reporters there wanted Mike because all the kids 325 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 2: were like Mike, Mike, Mike, and one of the reporters 326 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: was about to get the story from Mike himself, and 327 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: I believe it was the school principal who said, hey, 328 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: enough you reporters, these kids have been through enough. Let 329 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: Mike get his rest, let them be with their families. 330 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 2: And you know, Mike was listening to the grownups in 331 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: the room and all the kids. That's what they did 332 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: and Mike never got to tell his story. And so 333 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: all the people, all the reporters, the school, the parents, 334 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: they all thought that it was because of completely because 335 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 2: of ed Ray that they escaped from this underground dungeon, 336 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 2: this tomb, when in fact, there were other heroes that day. 337 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: I don't want to discount ed Ray, not at all. 338 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 2: He was a huge part of all these people getting out, 339 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 2: but really the credit should go to a large, large 340 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 2: extent to this kid, Mike Marshall. 341 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to the kidnappers for a moment. 342 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: What do we know about them and why were they 343 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: motivated to actually do this? Because it was so premeditated. 344 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: They put a lot of effort into kidnapping these kids. 345 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: You know, they did so. The ringleader was this man 346 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: named Fred Woods. He's twenty four, and he gets his buddies, 347 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 2: these two brothers, James and Richard Schoenfeld, twenty two and 348 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: twenty four. And you know what's interesting is that all 349 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 2: three of these young men came from well to do 350 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: family and lived in Portola Valley, which is a very 351 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: wealthy enclave of the Bay Area. The Schoenfeld's father was 352 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: a doctor, and Fred Woods his family, you know, struck 353 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: it rich during the during the gold Rush, and had 354 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 2: a lot of money and owned land and all kinds 355 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 2: of real estate interests. And of course this rock quarry 356 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: in Livermore where Fred Woods had worked, and that's why 357 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 2: he knew it well, and that's why he decided to 358 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: bury this load of kids there. But they, you know, 359 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 2: they were scrappy kids. They often were in debt, and 360 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 2: they'd made some bad investments over time, and they wanted 361 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 2: some quick money. I mean, that's the bottom line. They 362 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 2: really wanted some quick money. And they thought that kidnapping 363 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: a busload of of helpless, defenseless little kids precious lives, 364 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: you know, they thought precious lives for you know, lots 365 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 2: of millions who wouldn't fight back or resist would be 366 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: the best way to do it. And so that's that's 367 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: why they devised this plan. And again about this five 368 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 2: million dollar budget surplus, that that's how they struck on 369 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: the number of a five million dollar ransom. 370 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: What's really interesting is when police do finally actually track 371 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: them down and they go through their home, the sheer 372 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: amount of evidence that they found is quite amazing. 373 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: Really. It is, oh, diagrams on like fast food wrappers, 374 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 2: I want to say, or bags of fast. These kidnappers 375 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 2: were very organized in some ways and you know, Keystone 376 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 2: cops in other ways. So yes, lists of how they 377 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: were going to pull this off, what they were going 378 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: to do. Eventually they were going to set the kids free. 379 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: But there was a lot of evidence, just a treasure 380 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 2: trove of evidence. And of course when the kidnappers realized 381 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: that the kids had escaped, they all fled. They all 382 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: tried to escape to Canada or to various parts. Eventually, 383 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: Richard Schoenfeld, the younger brother, a few days later, he 384 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 2: turned himself in. You know, he was young, just twenty 385 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: two years old. You think about you know, these guys 386 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: were young. And then the other two were caught within 387 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: days as well. There was not a long manhunt that 388 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: stretched out for weeks and weeks. It wasn't like that. 389 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: These kidnappers were found pretty. 390 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: Quick after the break. We hear what happened when police 391 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: finally tracked down the kidnappers and what evidence police found 392 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: in their home. What was their trial like, because I 393 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: understand some charges were brought against them that at that 394 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: time in nineteen seventy six, required a lot to be proven. 395 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: And so that's why they first of all ended up 396 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: with life without parole. But then that change, didn't it? 397 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: It did, It did, and we know so much more 398 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 2: today about childhood trauma. But back in those days they 399 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: were sentenced to life without parole because there was a 400 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 2: charge of bodily injury. One of the chill on the bus, 401 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 2: Jennifer Hyde Brown, had suffered an injury to her foot 402 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: or her ankle. But later on appeal, the defense argued, well, 403 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: it wasn't that serious, and none of the other kids 404 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 2: were injured, so really that point that led to the 405 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: life in prison without parole should be dismissed, and a 406 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 2: judge agreed. So now their sentence is a life in 407 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: prison with the possibility of parole. And what we know now, 408 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 2: of course, is that kind of trauma does cause physical 409 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 2: injury to the brain. It may not be a mark 410 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 2: on the skin, but that was, you know, and all 411 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 2: these survivors have had some degree of trauma later in life. 412 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 2: But at the time it was, oh, they're young, they're little, 413 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: We'll just put them on a trip to Disneyland and 414 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: they'll forget about it and move on with their lives. 415 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 2: But of course now we know so much more and 416 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: especially based on studies of these particular kids that were 417 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 2: kidnapped about child trauma and the real lasting, you know, 418 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 2: physical and emotional damage that something like this can cause 419 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 2: and did cause in this case. 420 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: We did speak to some of the survivors. What did 421 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: they explain to you was their experience like after going 422 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: home after everything had happened. 423 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 2: Well, Jennifer Hyde Brown, who was I think she was 424 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: just nine years old to this day, she has tu 425 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 2: She lives in an area of the country where there's 426 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: tornadoes and she sometimes has to go down into storm cellars. 427 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 2: She needs to fortify herself with a stiff drink before 428 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: she does that. She never sleeps in the dark. She 429 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 2: always has a light on. She doesn't like airplanes or 430 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 2: elevators or any kind of enclosed spaces. That has been 431 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: part of her lasting trauma. Now with that said, she's 432 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 2: raised a beautiful family and has a thriving career, so 433 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 2: she's doing well. But those are just some of the 434 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: things that she's still dealing with to get over that trauma. 435 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: And as for Larry and Mike, you know, it's really tragic, 436 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: you know what happened with them because they both fell 437 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: into into alcohol and substance abuse. Especially, Larry had demons 438 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: haunting him for many, many years and was in and 439 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 2: out of institutions and recovery homes. He was getting into 440 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: fights and it was really really bad until he rediscovered 441 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 2: his faith and went into a Christian ministry to serve others. 442 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: And what's interesting with Larry is that he became involved 443 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 2: in what we're calling restorative justice, where he felt the 444 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: need to meet these kidnappers that had caused him so 445 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 2: much distress as a young man, and he did. He 446 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: met with them and he forgave them. But what's really 447 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 2: shocking to me is that he told these kidnappers of 448 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 2: his that he needed them to forgive him for hating 449 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 2: them for so many years and being so angry with 450 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 2: them for so many years. He says, I was your 451 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: prisoner for thirty hours, but I hated you for thirty 452 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: eight years and no one deserves that. Do you forgive me? 453 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 2: And this kind of healing that he needed to do 454 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: is really quite astounding. Mike Marshall doesn't quite feel the 455 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 2: same way, although he has found his faith too and 456 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 2: is it about christian But he's not quite ready to 457 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 2: forgive these men the way that Larry has, but it 458 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: was really something to see. Now, as your listeners may know, 459 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: all three men are now free on parole, living somewhere 460 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 2: in northern California. We think the details of where they 461 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: are and what they're doing have been kept very private, 462 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 2: like no information really on what they're doing, except we 463 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 2: know they've stayed out of trouble. They haven't been arrested, 464 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,239 Speaker 2: no court hearings, anything like that. But Larry told me 465 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: that once enough time had gone by, he wanted to 466 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 2: take Fred Woods out for a steak dinner and talk 467 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 2: to him and just kind of get to know this 468 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: man that has loomed large over his whole life. I 469 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: don't think that has happened yet. I think Larry would 470 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 2: like to find out where Fred is, and yet he 471 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: just hasn't found out that information yet. But I just 472 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: thought that was so interesting. That was so interesting. Also, 473 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 2: in the aftermath of all of this, Ed Ray went 474 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 2: right back to work driving that bus, same bus. He 475 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 2: went right back to work driving kids. That's what he 476 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: loved to do. And years later, after he retired and 477 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 2: he found out that the bus was heading to the junkyard, 478 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 2: he bought it. And I always thought about that connection 479 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 2: he had to that school bus and his need to 480 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 2: to keep it safe, and so he bought it and 481 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: he put it in his barn. I think it's been 482 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 2: moved now to a different location, but I always thought 483 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 2: about that. Isn't that interesting? 484 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: It is interesting, and the fact that it's tied to 485 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,479 Speaker 1: such trauma now interesting that he still felt that connection 486 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: to it even after everything that happened. He mentioned that, oh, 487 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: three of those men have been paroled now. The Schoenfeld 488 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: brothers got out earlier, and it seems like their life 489 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: behind bars was failing on eventful. But fred Wood stading 490 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: for a lot longer, and he applied for parole, obtained 491 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: times and was denied because he was running businesses from 492 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: behind bas Is that true? 493 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. When we originally did our podcast, we 494 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 2: didn't think he would be paroled or come up for 495 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 2: parole until twenty twenty four. In fact, he was paroled 496 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 2: in I believe twenty twenty two, after being denied like 497 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 2: seventeen times. But yeah, you know, he ran into some 498 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 2: trouble behind bars. I believe he was running a Christmas 499 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 2: tree farm and he had a cell phone, and I 500 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 2: think he was getting married over and over again. And 501 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: he didn't always have the warden's permission for some of 502 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 2: the things that he was doing there. And you know, 503 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 2: as the district attorney or will say, it's like a 504 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: preview of how somebody will behave once they're out of prison. 505 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: Is their history in prison and how they behave in prison. 506 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: So you know, it was a dicey move, but he 507 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: is now. He is now free and living a crime 508 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: free life for as far as we can tell. One 509 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: thing that's interesting too, is that when he got out 510 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: of prison, the first thing that he did after being 511 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: behind bars more than four decades, he wanted to go 512 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: to the beach, and so the police or whoever took 513 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: him out of the jail drove him to the beach. 514 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: And you can imagine how that must have been for 515 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: him after all those years behind bars, to feel his 516 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 2: toes in the sand and to breathe that fresh air. 517 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 2: And now after that, we don't know where he is 518 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 2: or the Schoenfeld brothers, they both had family, a large 519 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 2: families that were willing to take them in and give 520 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: them jobs and support them. So it's likely that these 521 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 2: men are all with their families. 522 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: What's been the lasting legacy on the town of Chowchilla 523 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: after this happened. I imagined the parents of not just those 524 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: twenty six children, that the parents of every child who 525 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: lived anywhere remotely close to this incident changed behaviors in 526 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: the wake of this, or were at least more scared 527 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: for their children. But what's the lasting legacy of this 528 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: kidnapping event on the town's there? 529 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think across the country, because this was a 530 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: huge national story really around the world. Even I think 531 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: that was the time after that where parents were, you know, 532 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: telling their kids, you can't play outside after dark, you 533 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 2: can't ride your bike, you know, if I don't know 534 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: where you're going, we need to stay in touch with 535 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: you more. It was a loss of innocence in many ways. 536 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 2: And I think Chowchilla, you know, like so many places 537 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 2: like Valdi's, Alaska. You know, it will always be synonymous 538 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: with this kidnapping, but it is a thriving community and 539 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 2: people are moving there with their families, with their children. 540 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 2: There are parks there, including an ed Ray Park, and 541 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 2: they celebrate ed Ray Day with the town coming out 542 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: with a little parade for that. But I think that, 543 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: you know, it's a sad chapter, but in many ways, 544 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 2: you know, this story could have turned out so much worse. 545 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: And there's a plaque in front of the police department 546 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 2: with giant boulder, with a plaque with a picture of 547 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: the school bus and the list of all the kids' 548 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 2: names in ed Ray, and it's a beautiful commemoration. I 549 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 2: don't know how many young people growing up today even 550 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: know about this story because it happened so long ago, 551 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: more than forty five years ago. But I know when 552 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 2: our crew met with Mike and Larry on the forty 553 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 2: five day anniversary in Chowchilla, there was really nothing happening 554 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: to commemorate the day there, but I can tell you 555 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: it was an emotional reunion, and especially for Larry to 556 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 2: meet his hero, Mike Marshall, who helped save his life. 557 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: I asked Larry, how long has it been since you've 558 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: seen Mike. He's like forty five years. Forty five years. 559 00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: You know. It's a little bit of a heart scratch 560 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 2: think about that. 561 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: I must admit when I was listening to that episode 562 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: of your podcast, I was in tears in the car 563 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: just listening to the gratitude come from Larry and then 564 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: the real kind of humbleness of Mike who I think 565 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: sounds like he felt like he just did what he 566 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: had to do in the moment. He doesn't feel as 567 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: heroic as Larry sort of holds. 568 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 2: Him up to be. 569 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: Do you find like in speaking to those two men 570 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: that they're still kind of grappling with what their role 571 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: was and the response was from that. 572 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 2: Day, absolutely absolutely. I think they will always still be grappling. 573 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: It was nice to know that both of them at 574 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: that time and hopefully still are sober, they're doing well 575 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 2: in their recovery. I think Mike appreciates, after all these 576 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 2: years to tell his side of the sport, to have 577 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 2: his side of the story told. He's very humble, a 578 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 2: little bit shy. He has a support animal with him 579 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: all the time, his beloved dog Blue. I don't think 580 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: he's one to clamor for attention, but I think now 581 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 2: all these years later, it's not like stolen Valor here 582 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 2: or anything, but I think he's glad that he's had 583 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 2: a little bit more of the whole story come out. 584 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 2: And as for Larry, he was overwhelmed to meet the 585 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: man he calls his hero and to thank him repeatedly, 586 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 2: over and over, thank you, thank you, thank you, and 587 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 2: also to try to impart some of his own personal 588 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 2: belief that Mike could benefit from this idea of forgiveness 589 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 2: just as he had. I don't know. We'll see. We'll 590 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 2: see where Mike goes with forgiving his kidnappers. I think 591 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 2: Larry might be maybe one other of the survivors has 592 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 2: also forgiven them, because forgiveness is a tough thing for 593 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 2: some people, but for Larry it was a life saver 594 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: for him because he said, once he was able to 595 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 2: forgive and let go of that anger and resentment, he 596 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: was able to spell these demon voices that had told 597 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 2: him so many terrible things and to do so many 598 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 2: terrible things. And he wanted Mike to know that part 599 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: of his story, and he was glad to be able 600 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: to share that. 601 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: Thank you to Claudia for helping us tell this story. 602 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: You can find the podcast Nightmare and Chow Chiller at 603 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: the link in our show notes. If you want to 604 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: see images from this story, here to our Instagram page 605 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: at True Crime Conversations. True Crime Conversations is hosted by 606 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: me Claire Murphy. Our senior producer is Talie Blackman. The 607 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: group executive producer is Alaria Brophy, and there's been audio 608 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: designed by Tina Madloff. Thanks so much for listening. I'll 609 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: be back next week with another True Crime Conversation. True 610 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 611 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 1: that this podcast was recorded on