WEBVTT - Kate Middleton's Face & Martha Stewart's Fortune 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:14.807 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mayer acknowledges 0:00:14.847 --> 0:00:17.607 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.647 --> 0:00:20.407 is recorded on. Welcome to Mama Mea are out loud? 0:00:20.407 --> 0:00:23.647 What women are actually talking about on Wednesday the thirty. 0:00:23.927 --> 0:00:25.287 On What how About? 0:00:25.327 --> 0:00:31.927 We's done Again? Hello, and welcome to Mama Mea Out 0:00:31.927 --> 0:00:34.927 loud What women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the 0:00:35.007 --> 0:00:37.887 thirteenth of November. I'm Meya Friedman sitting in the big 0:00:37.967 --> 0:00:39.687 chair while Holly wayIn Wright is away. 0:00:40.007 --> 0:00:43.287 I'm Jesse Stevens and today we are joined by Mama 0:00:43.367 --> 0:00:47.767 Maya's US correspondent and the deputy editor of Foreign Policy magazine, 0:00:47.967 --> 0:00:49.647 our friend, Amelia Lester. 0:00:49.927 --> 0:00:54.247 Hello, Hello, welcome, And on the show today it's equal 0:00:54.287 --> 0:00:57.927 parts chaotic and iconic. Yes, we're talking about the Martha 0:00:57.967 --> 0:01:03.047 Stewart Netflix stocko and why the original influencer Jailbird and 0:01:03.127 --> 0:01:06.927 Snoop's best friend hates it? And why did Kate Middleton's 0:01:06.927 --> 0:01:11.287 face attract so much attention after Remembrance Day's service in London? 0:01:11.687 --> 0:01:15.727 Have we just forgotten what women actually look like? Plus 0:01:15.847 --> 0:01:19.127 dating as a job the new method for single people 0:01:19.207 --> 0:01:23.447 looking to be unsingle that boasts a scorched earth policy 0:01:23.687 --> 0:01:28.487 and some very strict criteria. But first, Jesse Stevens. 0:01:28.167 --> 0:01:31.687 In case he missed it, Armie Hammer's mum has spoken 0:01:31.687 --> 0:01:34.807 about a very special birthday present she gifted her son, 0:01:34.967 --> 0:01:38.607 who is definitely not a literal cannibal. In case you're wondering, 0:01:39.087 --> 0:01:43.007 Hamma has a new podcast is called Army hammer Time Podcast, 0:01:43.487 --> 0:01:46.327 and he dropped the second of a two part interview 0:01:46.767 --> 0:01:50.047 with his mother Drew. Here's what she said. 0:01:50.407 --> 0:01:50.927 What did you get? 0:01:51.007 --> 0:01:53.607 So I call Army and I go, Army, what would 0:01:53.607 --> 0:01:55.167 you like for your birthday this year? 0:01:55.527 --> 0:01:57.487 And he goes, oh, I don't know, you know, maybe 0:01:57.527 --> 0:02:01.047 maybe money whatever. And I was like, I believe I'm 0:02:01.047 --> 0:02:02.527 going to give you a vas sect to me. 0:02:05.247 --> 0:02:07.287 Yeah, so yeah, my mom got me a sex to. 0:02:07.287 --> 0:02:10.807 Me for that stupid and by the way, you know, 0:02:11.127 --> 0:02:14.087 as the church lady, I would love to say, okay, Army, 0:02:14.127 --> 0:02:16.407 I'm really praying that you don't have sex outside of 0:02:16.487 --> 0:02:19.247 marriage because under God, sex you know, is in the 0:02:19.247 --> 0:02:20.487 purity of a marriage and. 0:02:20.447 --> 0:02:24.487 All this, and I'm thinking that's not gonna work. So 0:02:24.527 --> 0:02:28.447 now I'm out here blasting away, bro, just throwing it 0:02:28.487 --> 0:02:29.327 all over the place. 0:02:31.727 --> 0:02:35.367 She also went on to say how many young women 0:02:35.487 --> 0:02:38.727 would love to have Armie Hammer's little babies. 0:02:38.847 --> 0:02:41.127 I love this interview. It's made my whole week and 0:02:41.247 --> 0:02:44.207 you can watch the video of it. It's quite extraordinary. 0:02:44.247 --> 0:02:46.607 It's just the two of them. I think Army's wearing 0:02:46.647 --> 0:02:48.647 like shorts and thongs and sitting in a chair and 0:02:48.687 --> 0:02:50.847 his mum's just sitting on the couch and they just 0:02:50.887 --> 0:02:54.007 set up I think a phone. But she goes on 0:02:54.047 --> 0:02:56.647 to say it's a miracle after he talks about blasting 0:02:56.647 --> 0:02:58.847 it everywhere. It's a miracle we don't have a bunch 0:02:58.847 --> 0:03:02.047 of little hammers running around and he said, yeah, I 0:03:02.247 --> 0:03:02.727 ate them. 0:03:03.767 --> 0:03:08.927 Wow, that is fucked and a less blasting, Army, less blasting. 0:03:09.727 --> 0:03:13.527 She also had some thoughts about those allegations that were 0:03:13.567 --> 0:03:16.247 made in twenty twenty one. Here is how she directly 0:03:16.287 --> 0:03:17.007 referenced them. 0:03:17.167 --> 0:03:18.247 Well, you know, I even. 0:03:18.087 --> 0:03:20.767 Called you one time and I was like, okay, let 0:03:20.807 --> 0:03:24.087 me just get this straight. I go, are there any 0:03:24.167 --> 0:03:28.447 women out there with ribs or limbs missing? That's what 0:03:28.567 --> 0:03:32.567 I want to know as a mother, because end of conversation, 0:03:32.847 --> 0:03:35.287 if there are limbs or ribs missing. 0:03:35.047 --> 0:03:38.007 She's not having any of these accusations. She's not buying 0:03:38.087 --> 0:03:40.887 it her Army would not eat a person. 0:03:41.007 --> 0:03:44.127 I do want to say, I'm all for normalizing vasectoms 0:03:44.207 --> 0:03:46.167 for men. I think it's really important that men take 0:03:46.207 --> 0:03:50.367 responsibility for family planning. And my husband, for the record, 0:03:50.447 --> 0:03:55.007 did instagram his vasectomy live, not live, but before and 0:03:55.047 --> 0:03:55.607 after shock. 0:03:55.687 --> 0:03:58.047 Can you explain? Is it true? I heard that there's 0:03:58.047 --> 0:04:01.127 a big thing on Super Bowl someday in the US 0:04:01.287 --> 0:04:04.807 where men go and get their vasectoms and then recover 0:04:04.887 --> 0:04:06.927 on the couch watching like the day before, and then 0:04:06.967 --> 0:04:08.407 recover on the couch watching football. 0:04:08.527 --> 0:04:10.807 Yees, it's a movie. I have heard that. But it 0:04:10.927 --> 0:04:13.327 is interesting to note that for sectomy rates in the 0:04:13.447 --> 0:04:16.087 US are much lower than they are in Australia. Culturally, 0:04:16.247 --> 0:04:19.047 it's much more taboo, So it's interesting that Army's breaking 0:04:19.087 --> 0:04:20.407 the fourth wall, as it were. 0:04:20.727 --> 0:04:23.407 I'm also interested when she said I gave him a 0:04:23.487 --> 0:04:28.047 vasectomy for his birthday. Look, this story is strange. Army 0:04:28.247 --> 0:04:32.607 is clearly not your usual bear, and I was like, 0:04:32.767 --> 0:04:34.447 did she just get out the scissors? 0:04:34.527 --> 0:04:37.767 I don't know. You love an overshare amongst family members. 0:04:37.407 --> 0:04:40.207 So Jamia, would you pay for your son's v sectomy? 0:04:40.287 --> 0:04:42.967 For example, I'd pay for it to be reversed so 0:04:43.007 --> 0:04:44.407 I could have my grandchildren. 0:04:44.687 --> 0:04:45.167 I get it. 0:04:46.127 --> 0:04:49.647 The documentary about Martha Stewart, who is eighty three, dropped 0:04:49.647 --> 0:04:51.687 on Netflix a couple of weeks ago, and we are 0:04:51.727 --> 0:04:55.527 ready to talk about whether Martha is actually the original influencer. 0:04:56.167 --> 0:04:59.487 A quick snapshot of who Martha is in case you've forgotten. 0:04:59.767 --> 0:05:00.247 She is the. 0:05:00.327 --> 0:05:06.767 Queen of homemaking, cooking, and everything lifestyle. She's a TV personality, 0:05:06.807 --> 0:05:11.327 a business mogul, and the original sort of DIY expert 0:05:11.407 --> 0:05:16.527 who built an entire empire around making everyday life look fabulous. 0:05:16.887 --> 0:05:20.087 She started as a model. She then became an investment 0:05:20.327 --> 0:05:24.287 banker and a stockbroker, and she started her own company. 0:05:24.527 --> 0:05:26.847 After she wrote a cookbook and then made a magazine, 0:05:27.007 --> 0:05:30.407 started a media company called Omnimedia, and it listed on 0:05:30.407 --> 0:05:32.167 the New York Stock Exchange. I think she was on 0:05:32.207 --> 0:05:34.247 the board of the New York Stock Exchange. And she 0:05:34.287 --> 0:05:39.287 became America's first female self made billionaire. So she's got 0:05:39.287 --> 0:05:42.447 an extraordinary legacy, really, most of which I didn't know 0:05:42.487 --> 0:05:45.047 what had forgotten about. So her brand is all about 0:05:45.047 --> 0:05:50.847 like fancy recipes, home dcort tips, gardening ideas, entertainment advice, 0:05:51.367 --> 0:05:57.287 and this documentary covered her whole life because she's got 0:05:57.327 --> 0:06:00.487 a fascinating life. As if that wasn't interesting enough, She 0:06:00.567 --> 0:06:04.247 then went to prison for insider trading, well not quite 0:06:04.247 --> 0:06:08.767 insider trading, but for a scandal around insider trading, and 0:06:09.047 --> 0:06:11.247 she was in prison for about five months. In two 0:06:11.327 --> 0:06:14.927 thousand and four, there was a big, very public celebrity 0:06:15.367 --> 0:06:19.447 court case. Her legacy is that she's basically a household name, 0:06:19.607 --> 0:06:21.727 and if you've ever googled how to set a table, 0:06:21.927 --> 0:06:24.167 I don't know do people google about you would have 0:06:24.207 --> 0:06:28.047 found her. A few key moments from the documentary have 0:06:28.127 --> 0:06:32.287 gone viral, including a chat that she had about infidelity 0:06:32.287 --> 0:06:33.967 in her marriage. So she was married to this guy 0:06:33.967 --> 0:06:35.767 called Andrew Stewart from when she was quite young, I 0:06:35.767 --> 0:06:39.807 think she was nineteen. She kissed someone else on her honeymoon. 0:06:40.207 --> 0:06:43.447 She was in Italy in the Duomo and a moment 0:06:43.487 --> 0:06:45.847 overcame her and she had a quick past with a stranger, 0:06:46.367 --> 0:06:49.647 and then she had another short lived affair. But her 0:06:49.727 --> 0:06:54.247 husband had many affairs before they eventually divorced. Here's the 0:06:54.287 --> 0:06:58.887 conversation she had with the interviewer in the documentary about infidelity. 0:06:59.127 --> 0:07:01.887 I don't know how many different girlfriends he had during 0:07:01.887 --> 0:07:03.967 this time. But I think there were quite a few 0:07:04.447 --> 0:07:07.487 young women. Listen to my advice. If you're married and 0:07:07.567 --> 0:07:09.687 you think you're happily married and your husband started to 0:07:09.767 --> 0:07:12.727 cheat on you, he's a piece of shit, and look 0:07:12.767 --> 0:07:14.247 at him. It's a piece of shit, and get out 0:07:14.247 --> 0:07:17.807 of it, get out of that marriage. But I couldn't 0:07:17.807 --> 0:07:21.407 do that, couldn't walk away. Didn't you have an affair 0:07:21.447 --> 0:07:25.567 early on in the relationship or when you were a Yeah, 0:07:25.607 --> 0:07:27.287 but I don't think Andy ever knew about that. 0:07:27.847 --> 0:07:29.047 He did say anything about it. 0:07:29.167 --> 0:07:31.127 He did, Yes, you would confess to him. 0:07:31.367 --> 0:07:34.887 Sess He didn't straight from the marriage until you told 0:07:34.927 --> 0:07:36.087 him you had already straight. 0:07:36.207 --> 0:07:38.087 Oh that's not true. I don't think. 0:07:38.247 --> 0:07:41.887 Amelia and I've watched this documentary. We adored it. Jesse 0:07:42.007 --> 0:07:46.247 hasn't seen it yet. What was interesting to me was 0:07:46.727 --> 0:07:51.487 realizing that all this talk about Ballerina farm and Nara Smith, 0:07:51.967 --> 0:07:56.447 all these tradwives and influencers who make the work of 0:07:56.807 --> 0:08:02.447 homemaking and parenting look effortless while running these big businesses 0:08:02.527 --> 0:08:05.447 and making a huge amount of money from looking effortless. 0:08:06.327 --> 0:08:09.207 She really was the original influencer. Didn't you think, Amelia 0:08:09.247 --> 0:08:11.287 so What was your takeaways from the documentary. 0:08:11.767 --> 0:08:14.527 Yeah, it got me thinking about what an influencer is 0:08:14.567 --> 0:08:17.247 and what makes for an influencer. There was this recent 0:08:17.367 --> 0:08:19.967 survey of the American Labor Force that said seven percent 0:08:20.007 --> 0:08:23.887 of Americans describe themselves as influencers as their job. Now, 0:08:23.887 --> 0:08:27.087 this climate can't be true, the figure cannot be that high. 0:08:27.487 --> 0:08:30.327 But when you think about what makes for an influencer, 0:08:30.527 --> 0:08:33.607 it comes down to a person who can get other 0:08:33.687 --> 0:08:36.687 people to spend money. That's what it comes down to. 0:08:37.367 --> 0:08:39.647 I read a great definition of it recently by Emily 0:08:39.727 --> 0:08:42.487 Sunberg at the newsletter The Feed. She wrote, what the 0:08:42.527 --> 0:08:45.647 followers of these women really want is to step into 0:08:45.687 --> 0:08:49.367 their lives for a few minutes each day. And that 0:08:49.407 --> 0:08:51.927 got me thinking about how you can draw a straight 0:08:52.047 --> 0:08:55.487 line from Martha Stewart to Gwyneth Paltrow, and then I 0:08:55.527 --> 0:08:58.567 would argue a dotted line from both those women to 0:08:58.647 --> 0:08:59.647 Zoe Foster Blake. 0:08:59.967 --> 0:09:05.247 That's interesting. So all women who have built incredible business 0:09:05.247 --> 0:09:09.247 empires and who other women are really obsessed with their lives. 0:09:09.887 --> 0:09:12.007 Yeah, they get us to take out our wallets. They've 0:09:12.047 --> 0:09:15.647 successfully monetized not just their taste, I would say, but 0:09:15.807 --> 0:09:18.727 their lives. We think, for a few minutes each day, 0:09:18.807 --> 0:09:22.607 if we buy a Martha Stuart Kmart piece of home wears, 0:09:22.727 --> 0:09:25.487 or if we buy Gwyneth's new skincare line or Zoe 0:09:25.607 --> 0:09:28.767 foster Blake skincare line, we're actually wanting to grab a 0:09:28.807 --> 0:09:29.927 piece of their lives. 0:09:30.007 --> 0:09:32.087 But isn't that the same with every celebrity who's ever 0:09:32.167 --> 0:09:34.927 endorsed a product, every celebrity who has a fragrance. 0:09:35.247 --> 0:09:37.207 I don't think so. And this is where I actually 0:09:37.247 --> 0:09:40.887 think Martha Stewart is unlike a lot of influencers, and 0:09:40.927 --> 0:09:43.967 that is that she is, as far as I can tell, 0:09:44.487 --> 0:09:49.047 extremely talented. For example, it started with cooking and catering. 0:09:49.367 --> 0:09:52.367 That is a real skill. It can be kind of 0:09:52.767 --> 0:09:57.127 disparaged in the treadwife world, but being a great cook 0:09:57.247 --> 0:09:59.247 is like it's a really good skill. And then there's 0:09:59.527 --> 0:10:02.727 interior design and then even like how to set a table, 0:10:03.047 --> 0:10:06.647 like there is real status in that. And it's the 0:10:06.687 --> 0:10:09.767 same with Zoe Foster Blake. I think this pouchhow is 0:10:09.847 --> 0:10:12.247 very good at marketing. But I wonder if that's a 0:10:12.247 --> 0:10:14.807 bit of the tension that's emerged between them. 0:10:15.687 --> 0:10:20.687 I would call Zoe and Gwyneth and Martha influential, not 0:10:20.887 --> 0:10:24.967 influenzas I would actually put Zoe quite separate. Although it's 0:10:25.007 --> 0:10:29.087 interesting for all of those women, they are naturally talented 0:10:29.167 --> 0:10:32.287 at a particular thing. For Zoe it's writing, she's a 0:10:32.327 --> 0:10:36.207 brilliant writer. For Gwyneth, it's acting. For Martha, it was 0:10:36.287 --> 0:10:41.407 actually cooking and homemaking. And I think what's interesting about 0:10:41.447 --> 0:10:43.807 her and what the documentary, which she didn't like. By 0:10:43.847 --> 0:10:45.767 the way, she's come out and said a whole lot 0:10:45.767 --> 0:10:47.647 of things that she didn't like about it. You could 0:10:47.687 --> 0:10:50.607 hear she probably didn't like that in exchange about the infidelity, 0:10:50.647 --> 0:10:54.447 but she critiqued almost everything, from camera angles to music choices. 0:10:54.487 --> 0:10:57.687 She told The New York Times she hated the scenes 0:10:57.727 --> 0:10:59.727 at the end, where she said she looked like a 0:10:59.727 --> 0:11:02.767 lonely old lady walking hunched over in the garden. She 0:11:02.847 --> 0:11:04.967 didn't like how she looked on camera. She thought there 0:11:04.967 --> 0:11:08.127 should have been more rap music involved and that would 0:11:08.167 --> 0:11:11.327 have been more interesting. And it made me see how 0:11:11.327 --> 0:11:14.047 many documentaries that we watch about celebrities, and there's a 0:11:14.087 --> 0:11:16.607 whole host of them at the moment, from Harry and 0:11:16.687 --> 0:11:20.047 Meghan to the David Beckham documentary. They're now making one 0:11:20.047 --> 0:11:24.127 about Victoria Beckham, Taylor Swift. Of course, they all have 0:11:24.207 --> 0:11:28.887 creative control and approval. And even Oprah, who Apple was 0:11:28.887 --> 0:11:32.247 making a documentary about and they finished and she paid 0:11:32.367 --> 0:11:34.487 to buy it back so it would never be released 0:11:34.527 --> 0:11:36.847 because she didn't like it. And I think that's why 0:11:36.847 --> 0:11:38.967 I like this documentary. What did it make you feel 0:11:39.007 --> 0:11:40.047 about Martha herself? 0:11:40.087 --> 0:11:43.247 Amelia, Well, I think that's why I want to push 0:11:43.327 --> 0:11:46.527 back on Jesse's idea that it's about skill. I think 0:11:46.567 --> 0:11:50.207 all three of these women are so smart, so brilliant, 0:11:50.367 --> 0:11:53.567 they deserve every dollar that they've made. But I think 0:11:53.687 --> 0:11:58.447 that their greatest skill is marketing. And is marketing an 0:11:58.487 --> 0:12:03.767 idea of perfect imperfection or imperfect perfection. This word perfect 0:12:03.847 --> 0:12:06.247 comes up for Martha all the time. That's what she 0:12:06.407 --> 0:12:09.247 was selling with the perfectly made tables and the perfect 0:12:09.287 --> 0:12:10.247 Thanksgiving turkeys. 0:12:10.767 --> 0:12:13.767 But the idea is that she lets us. 0:12:13.567 --> 0:12:16.447 In to tiny parts of her life that are anything 0:12:16.527 --> 0:12:19.567 but perfect, and she keeps us wanting more from it. 0:12:19.647 --> 0:12:21.367 So a couple of things that come up in the dosh. 0:12:21.287 --> 0:12:24.367 You mean in the documentary, because not in her before 0:12:24.367 --> 0:12:27.207 she went to prison, like her magazines and her public persona, 0:12:28.127 --> 0:12:30.207 does she let us in she certainly didn't used to 0:12:30.247 --> 0:12:32.807 because there was all that stuff about how she was 0:12:32.807 --> 0:12:35.327 the Queen of mean before it came out about Ellen. 0:12:35.527 --> 0:12:38.847 It reminded me so much of that thing about the 0:12:38.887 --> 0:12:41.927 worst thing a woman can do in business or in 0:12:41.967 --> 0:12:45.967 life is be assertive. And it showed some scenes of 0:12:46.007 --> 0:12:48.247 Martha's Stewitt in the kitchen with people who were working 0:12:48.487 --> 0:12:51.767 with her for her, and she was really rude to 0:12:51.807 --> 0:12:52.927 them and really short. 0:12:53.367 --> 0:12:56.007 That's true, but she's now a huge influencer in her 0:12:56.047 --> 0:12:58.767 own right coming out of prison letting it all hang 0:12:58.767 --> 0:13:01.007 out in this documentary. The New York Times had recently 0:13:01.327 --> 0:13:05.247 that she is a gen Z beauty influencer, and she specifically, 0:13:05.567 --> 0:13:08.607 what do you mean? So she advertises clay to Postkincare, 0:13:08.647 --> 0:13:11.247 which is a really expensive skincare brand. The creams are 0:13:11.247 --> 0:13:13.767 all four hundred dollars and up on TikTok from her 0:13:13.807 --> 0:13:17.807 Connecticut mansion. She's routinely getting seventy eighty million views for 0:13:17.847 --> 0:13:22.167 these skincare advertisements, and so the relatability of it is 0:13:22.207 --> 0:13:24.647 part of why she's taken off with a new generation. 0:13:24.767 --> 0:13:26.647 So let's run through a few things that she talks 0:13:26.687 --> 0:13:29.407 about quite frankly in this documentary the first marriage ending 0:13:29.767 --> 0:13:32.367 in divorce, as we've discussed, and she shares with the 0:13:32.407 --> 0:13:35.927 documentary makers letters that she sent her ex husband begging 0:13:36.007 --> 0:13:38.887 him to take her back. That's an extraordinary amount of disclosure. 0:13:39.007 --> 0:13:41.567 That was quite j lo. I thought it was. 0:13:42.567 --> 0:13:45.167 She's admitted that she didn't feel naturally maternal towards her 0:13:45.207 --> 0:13:47.447 daughter Alexis, and this is something that her daughter has 0:13:47.487 --> 0:13:49.447 spoken about over the years, the fact that while she 0:13:49.527 --> 0:13:51.527 and her mother are very close, her mother was never 0:13:51.807 --> 0:13:55.567 a straightforwardly maternal figure for her. She didn't come. 0:13:55.487 --> 0:13:58.967 Across as very warm. And I kept finding myself texting, you, 0:13:59.567 --> 0:14:05.087 have you ever seen a more unlikable woman like her? Unlikability? 0:14:05.127 --> 0:14:07.727 And I know this is a real weapon that we 0:14:08.087 --> 0:14:10.807 use against women, this idea of needing to be likable. 0:14:11.847 --> 0:14:14.447 What was interesting is that she wasn't trying to be likable. 0:14:14.647 --> 0:14:18.847 No, when Nora's Gwyneth, by the way, Gwyneth is also I. 0:14:18.727 --> 0:14:21.967 Feel like Gwyneth tries to be likable. I think Martha 0:14:22.047 --> 0:14:24.127 is really like, yeah, I didn't like being a mum 0:14:24.167 --> 0:14:26.807 that much. My husband was a dickhead. People need to 0:14:26.807 --> 0:14:27.247 be better. 0:14:27.447 --> 0:14:30.167 She was on Drew Barrymore's show this week and Drew's 0:14:30.167 --> 0:14:33.367 famously touchy with her guests, and she just pushed her away. 0:14:33.567 --> 0:14:34.167 I loved that. 0:14:34.447 --> 0:14:38.327 I think it's the complexity that makes her a complicated 0:14:38.887 --> 0:14:42.047 monet painting that we can't stop staring at, because in 0:14:42.087 --> 0:14:45.607 a lot of ways she actually subverts the feminine. It's like, 0:14:45.767 --> 0:14:49.567 in one way she's the antitrad wife. Even her voice 0:14:49.607 --> 0:14:53.647 is a bit deeper, she's disagreeable. She doesn't come across 0:14:53.647 --> 0:14:56.607 as pleasant. It doesn't seem to be like her aim 0:14:56.687 --> 0:14:59.327 to come across as pleasant. Like compare that to a 0:14:59.367 --> 0:15:03.767 ballerina farm Hannah Nielman, who from the high voice to 0:15:03.887 --> 0:15:07.327 the slow talking to the there's something so tranquil about 0:15:07.367 --> 0:15:08.567 it and subservient. 0:15:08.607 --> 0:15:12.567 They're both very much with Hannah Nielman's husband and Nara 0:15:12.687 --> 0:15:16.247 Smith's husband, Lucky Blue. It's always in the service. They're 0:15:16.287 --> 0:15:18.647 working in the service of their husband and children, and 0:15:18.687 --> 0:15:22.767 they're always very much in the service. Whereas that's so interesting, 0:15:22.847 --> 0:15:26.527 Martha's more about I'm doing this because I like, I 0:15:26.567 --> 0:15:28.887 want a nice table, and I want to be gardening, 0:15:29.127 --> 0:15:31.607 and I want to be making a nice Christmas dinner 0:15:31.687 --> 0:15:33.687 because it gives me joy. 0:15:34.047 --> 0:15:36.047 And she fucked the rest of you and she flirts 0:15:36.047 --> 0:15:38.007 with the male gaze, but she also rejects it. So 0:15:38.047 --> 0:15:41.327 she's on the cover of Sports Illustrated. She dates famous man. 0:15:41.367 --> 0:15:43.447 She dated Anthony Hopkins, which I didn't know, but she 0:15:43.487 --> 0:15:45.247 broke up with him because she said she couldn't stop 0:15:45.287 --> 0:15:49.327 thinking about Hannibal Lecter. And she's spoken up very openly 0:15:49.327 --> 0:15:51.487 about how difficult it has been for her to date 0:15:51.527 --> 0:15:52.647 in midlife and beyond. 0:15:53.127 --> 0:15:55.767 She's quite beyond midlife. I would say she's eighty three. 0:15:56.247 --> 0:15:57.167 Is she still dating? 0:15:57.367 --> 0:15:58.687 She is, And she. 0:15:58.687 --> 0:16:01.807 Says that she's got no plans to retire, like she 0:16:01.807 --> 0:16:05.487 doesn't see anything appealing about retirement. But I was thinking 0:16:05.527 --> 0:16:08.127 about a quote I read recently about fame and how 0:16:08.167 --> 0:16:11.527 people become famous to feel understood. That's the number one 0:16:11.567 --> 0:16:14.007 reason is that they want people to understand them. And 0:16:14.087 --> 0:16:16.807 after that documentary, there was a headline that said she 0:16:16.927 --> 0:16:19.607 still doesn't feel understood, and she doesn't, and I wonder 0:16:19.647 --> 0:16:21.967 if that's why she doesn't want to retire. She's not 0:16:22.007 --> 0:16:25.447 done yet. She feels like people don't fully get her. 0:16:25.527 --> 0:16:28.447 And that's my question, as someone who hasn't watched the documentary. 0:16:29.207 --> 0:16:32.287 Are we laughing at Martha Stuart or are we laughing 0:16:32.367 --> 0:16:36.967 with Martha Stuart because she's become this cultural icon in 0:16:37.007 --> 0:16:38.567 the last few years. She kind of pops up with 0:16:38.687 --> 0:16:44.207 Snoop Dogg. She's like, again, this complicated figure and I've 0:16:44.247 --> 0:16:47.927 seen viral clips from this, like the one about her 0:16:47.967 --> 0:16:50.847 affairs and her relationships and stuff, and I have a laugh. 0:16:51.767 --> 0:16:53.927 But do you think she feels like we're laughing at her? 0:16:54.367 --> 0:16:59.327 What a great question. No, I think that she's more like, 0:16:59.367 --> 0:17:02.247 you know, how Betty White became iconic, Yeah, and Ruth 0:17:02.287 --> 0:17:04.727 Baty Ginsburg was iconic. I know that's different. She was 0:17:04.767 --> 0:17:07.327 the Supreme Court judge and has her own complicated history. 0:17:07.727 --> 0:17:11.527 But I don't I think people are laughing at her. 0:17:11.687 --> 0:17:12.727 I'm not laughing. 0:17:12.487 --> 0:17:14.047 About Miron's another one. 0:17:14.447 --> 0:17:18.727 Yeah, yeah, the Queen. Like it's kind of like, I 0:17:18.767 --> 0:17:20.887 hate to say it, but like they're so old they're cool. 0:17:21.087 --> 0:17:23.687 Yeah, exactly, It's like they've come back again. It's like retro. 0:17:24.527 --> 0:17:27.887 Was this documentary good for her brand or bad? 0:17:28.327 --> 0:17:30.767 Well? I think the very fact that she's still selling 0:17:30.807 --> 0:17:33.847 really expensive skincare to gen z on TikTok means that 0:17:33.927 --> 0:17:36.247 it was great for her brand. I think we now 0:17:36.367 --> 0:17:40.247 crave the deconstruction of perfection that she's revealing to us 0:17:40.247 --> 0:17:42.607 in this, don't you think, Miah, Yeah, And I think 0:17:42.647 --> 0:17:45.047 that what it did do Jesse, that's so interesting what 0:17:45.087 --> 0:17:46.687 you say about they want to be understood. 0:17:46.687 --> 0:17:51.167 I think that's incredibly astute. I think what it reminded 0:17:51.207 --> 0:17:54.247 me a little bit like watching the Menendez Brothers documentary. 0:17:54.727 --> 0:17:57.447 I think, I know what I think about these people. 0:17:57.567 --> 0:18:00.127 And I thought I knew what I thought about Martha Stewart, 0:18:00.767 --> 0:18:03.647 but I changed my mind after watching the documentary and 0:18:03.687 --> 0:18:06.807 I was like, oh, that was bullshit that she got 0:18:06.807 --> 0:18:09.887 sent to prison. Yeah, it is like, yeah, soso bad. 0:18:09.927 --> 0:18:14.447 And similarly to the Menandez brothers, like I thought that 0:18:14.527 --> 0:18:17.567 they'd made up all those allegations. That was my understanding 0:18:17.647 --> 0:18:20.887 because the reason I think that where relooking at all 0:18:20.927 --> 0:18:22.727 of these things. You know, we've got this segment all 0:18:22.847 --> 0:18:26.287 or nothing where you either know everything about a topic 0:18:26.407 --> 0:18:30.007 or nothing. The Internet allows you to know everything about 0:18:30.007 --> 0:18:32.807 any topic if you want to. But back in the 0:18:32.927 --> 0:18:36.127 nineties and the eighties and until the last ten years, 0:18:36.367 --> 0:18:38.847 there was a limited amount of information you could get 0:18:39.167 --> 0:18:41.327 about a certain topic. You know, if you wanted to 0:18:41.367 --> 0:18:44.727 dive deep, there wasn't really a way you could particularly 0:18:44.767 --> 0:18:47.687 for someone like Martha Stewart who wasn't iconic in Australia, 0:18:47.767 --> 0:18:49.567 and same with the Menendez brothers. I was kind of 0:18:49.567 --> 0:18:53.007 dimly aware of that story, but now it's like these 0:18:53.047 --> 0:18:54.807 stories are international. 0:18:55.167 --> 0:18:58.367 You're also making me think about how I felt after 0:18:58.407 --> 0:19:01.727 watching Harry and Meghan's documentary versus how I felt watching this. 0:19:02.287 --> 0:19:05.167 Once I'd watched Harry and Megan's documentary, I didn't need 0:19:05.207 --> 0:19:09.767 to know anything else. But having watched the Martha documentary, 0:19:10.607 --> 0:19:13.527 it's like Jesse said, she's a monet painting. I want 0:19:13.527 --> 0:19:15.847 to know everything, and I still don't know everything. 0:19:15.967 --> 0:19:17.887 When you say that about Harry and Meghan, do you 0:19:17.967 --> 0:19:20.847 mean I'd like I'd eaten too much at the buffet, 0:19:21.007 --> 0:19:24.167 Like all the mystery was gone, all the interest was gone. 0:19:24.607 --> 0:19:28.047 There wasn't the push pull of that collaboration between a 0:19:28.127 --> 0:19:31.527 director and their subject. This was more of a push 0:19:31.567 --> 0:19:34.567 pool dynamic, and so there were points where it was uncomfortable. 0:19:34.567 --> 0:19:36.207 There are a lot of points where it was uncomfortable. 0:19:36.287 --> 0:19:39.007 The filmmaker would leave the camera on Martha as she 0:19:39.127 --> 0:19:41.247 finished a thought and then wanted the camera to be 0:19:41.287 --> 0:19:44.247 turned off, and I felt like that push pool made 0:19:44.327 --> 0:19:45.287 me want to know more. 0:19:45.647 --> 0:19:48.127 The other thing that Martha appears to have done, at 0:19:48.207 --> 0:19:50.727 least in what I've read and clips I've seen, is 0:19:50.767 --> 0:19:54.487 that she owns that she's really, really rich, and she 0:19:54.607 --> 0:19:57.287 quite likes being really really rich, which we don't see 0:19:57.447 --> 0:20:01.207 very often with women in Australia. You would never ever 0:20:01.207 --> 0:20:04.447 get away with it. But watching that and watching a 0:20:04.487 --> 0:20:10.807 woman who owns it is sort of refreshing, but also complicated. 0:20:10.487 --> 0:20:14.207 The fact that she's self made. And I keep coming 0:20:14.247 --> 0:20:16.807 back to what you say about not feeling understood. She 0:20:16.887 --> 0:20:20.647 doesn't get the credit she deserves, as so many female 0:20:20.687 --> 0:20:24.687 business owners don't, and I would include Zoe among them, 0:20:25.007 --> 0:20:29.327 where it's like they have built these multi million dollar 0:20:29.407 --> 0:20:33.887 empires entirely on their own, and that's pretty bloody impressive. 0:20:34.687 --> 0:20:37.447 Is she still as culturally relevant in America as she 0:20:37.687 --> 0:20:38.207 used to be? 0:20:38.607 --> 0:20:40.567 I think she's even more so. They talk about in 0:20:40.647 --> 0:20:43.047 the documentary. This big turning point for her was when 0:20:43.087 --> 0:20:46.927 she went on a roast of Justin Bieber in twenty fourteen. 0:20:47.287 --> 0:20:49.567 That's when she actually met Snoop Dogg and they became 0:20:49.687 --> 0:20:52.487 very good friends. She had been out of the public 0:20:52.487 --> 0:20:55.327 eye for a long time after prison. She was a 0:20:55.367 --> 0:20:58.047 punchline to your earlier question, Jesse, she was a South 0:20:58.047 --> 0:21:00.847 Park punchline in fact, But then when she went back 0:21:00.887 --> 0:21:03.607