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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mayer acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on. Welcome to Mama Mea are out loud?

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Speaker 1: What women are actually talking about on Wednesday the thirty.

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Speaker 2: On What how About?

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Speaker 1: We's done Again? Hello, and welcome to Mama Mea Out

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Speaker 1: loud What women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the

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Speaker 1: thirteenth of November. I'm Meya Friedman sitting in the big

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Speaker 1: chair while Holly wayIn Wright is away.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens and today we are joined by Mama

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Speaker 3: Maya's US correspondent and the deputy editor of Foreign Policy magazine,

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Speaker 3: our friend, Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, welcome, And on the show today it's equal

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Speaker 1: parts chaotic and iconic. Yes, we're talking about the Martha

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Speaker 1: Stewart Netflix stocko and why the original influencer Jailbird and

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Speaker 1: Snoop's best friend hates it? And why did Kate Middleton's

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Speaker 1: face attract so much attention after Remembrance Day's service in London?

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Speaker 1: Have we just forgotten what women actually look like? Plus

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Speaker 1: dating as a job the new method for single people

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Speaker 1: looking to be unsingle that boasts a scorched earth policy

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Speaker 1: and some very strict criteria. But first, Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 3: In case he missed it, Armie Hammer's mum has spoken

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Speaker 3: about a very special birthday present she gifted her son,

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Speaker 3: who is definitely not a literal cannibal. In case you're wondering,

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Speaker 3: Hamma has a new podcast is called Army hammer Time Podcast,

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Speaker 3: and he dropped the second of a two part interview

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Speaker 3: with his mother Drew. Here's what she said.

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Speaker 4: What did you get?

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Speaker 5: So I call Army and I go, Army, what would

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Speaker 5: you like for your birthday this year?

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Speaker 6: And he goes, oh, I don't know, you know, maybe

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Speaker 6: maybe money whatever. And I was like, I believe I'm

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Speaker 6: going to give you a vas sect to me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, my mom got me a sex to.

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Speaker 6: Me for that stupid and by the way, you know,

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Speaker 6: as the church lady, I would love to say, okay, Army,

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Speaker 6: I'm really praying that you don't have sex outside of

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Speaker 6: marriage because under God, sex you know, is in the

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Speaker 6: purity of a marriage and.

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Speaker 5: All this, and I'm thinking that's not gonna work. So

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Speaker 5: now I'm out here blasting away, bro, just throwing it

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Speaker 5: all over the place.

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Speaker 3: She also went on to say how many young women

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Speaker 3: would love to have Armie Hammer's little babies.

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Speaker 1: I love this interview. It's made my whole week and

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Speaker 1: you can watch the video of it. It's quite extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: It's just the two of them. I think Army's wearing

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Speaker 1: like shorts and thongs and sitting in a chair and

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Speaker 1: his mum's just sitting on the couch and they just

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Speaker 1: set up I think a phone. But she goes on

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Speaker 1: to say it's a miracle after he talks about blasting

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Speaker 1: it everywhere. It's a miracle we don't have a bunch

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Speaker 1: of little hammers running around and he said, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: ate them.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that is fucked and a less blasting, Army, less blasting.

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Speaker 3: She also had some thoughts about those allegations that were

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Speaker 3: made in twenty twenty one. Here is how she directly

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Speaker 3: referenced them.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I even.

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Speaker 5: Called you one time and I was like, okay, let

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Speaker 5: me just get this straight. I go, are there any

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Speaker 5: women out there with ribs or limbs missing? That's what

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Speaker 5: I want to know as a mother, because end of conversation,

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Speaker 5: if there are limbs or ribs missing.

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Speaker 1: She's not having any of these accusations. She's not buying

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Speaker 1: it her Army would not eat a person.

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Speaker 2: I do want to say, I'm all for normalizing vasectoms

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Speaker 2: for men. I think it's really important that men take

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Speaker 2: responsibility for family planning. And my husband, for the record,

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Speaker 2: did instagram his vasectomy live, not live, but before and

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Speaker 2: after shock.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain? Is it true? I heard that there's

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Speaker 1: a big thing on Super Bowl someday in the US

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Speaker 1: where men go and get their vasectoms and then recover

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Speaker 1: on the couch watching like the day before, and then

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Speaker 1: recover on the couch watching football.

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Speaker 2: Yees, it's a movie. I have heard that. But it

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Speaker 2: is interesting to note that for sectomy rates in the

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Speaker 2: US are much lower than they are in Australia. Culturally,

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Speaker 2: it's much more taboo, So it's interesting that Army's breaking

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Speaker 2: the fourth wall, as it were.

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Speaker 1: I'm also interested when she said I gave him a

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Speaker 1: vasectomy for his birthday. Look, this story is strange. Army

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Speaker 1: is clearly not your usual bear, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: did she just get out the scissors?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. You love an overshare amongst family members.

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Speaker 3: So Jamia, would you pay for your son's v sectomy?

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Speaker 1: For example, I'd pay for it to be reversed so

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Speaker 1: I could have my grandchildren.

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Speaker 3: I get it.

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Speaker 1: The documentary about Martha Stewart, who is eighty three, dropped

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Speaker 1: on Netflix a couple of weeks ago, and we are

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Speaker 1: ready to talk about whether Martha is actually the original influencer.

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Speaker 1: A quick snapshot of who Martha is in case you've forgotten.

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Speaker 2: She is the.

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Speaker 1: Queen of homemaking, cooking, and everything lifestyle. She's a TV personality,

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Speaker 1: a business mogul, and the original sort of DIY expert

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Speaker 1: who built an entire empire around making everyday life look fabulous.

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Speaker 1: She started as a model. She then became an investment

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Speaker 1: banker and a stockbroker, and she started her own company.

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Speaker 1: After she wrote a cookbook and then made a magazine,

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Speaker 1: started a media company called Omnimedia, and it listed on

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Speaker 1: the New York Stock Exchange. I think she was on

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Speaker 1: the board of the New York Stock Exchange. And she

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Speaker 1: became America's first female self made billionaire. So she's got

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary legacy, really, most of which I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what had forgotten about. So her brand is all about

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Speaker 1: like fancy recipes, home dcort tips, gardening ideas, entertainment advice,

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Speaker 1: and this documentary covered her whole life because she's got

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Speaker 1: a fascinating life. As if that wasn't interesting enough, She

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Speaker 1: then went to prison for insider trading, well not quite

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Speaker 1: insider trading, but for a scandal around insider trading, and

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Speaker 1: she was in prison for about five months. In two

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Speaker 1: thousand and four, there was a big, very public celebrity

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Speaker 1: court case. Her legacy is that she's basically a household name,

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Speaker 1: and if you've ever googled how to set a table,

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Speaker 1: I don't know do people google about you would have

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Speaker 1: found her. A few key moments from the documentary have

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Speaker 1: gone viral, including a chat that she had about infidelity

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Speaker 1: in her marriage. So she was married to this guy

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Speaker 1: called Andrew Stewart from when she was quite young, I

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Speaker 1: think she was nineteen. She kissed someone else on her honeymoon.

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Speaker 1: She was in Italy in the Duomo and a moment

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Speaker 1: overcame her and she had a quick past with a stranger,

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Speaker 1: and then she had another short lived affair. But her

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Speaker 1: husband had many affairs before they eventually divorced. Here's the

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Speaker 1: conversation she had with the interviewer in the documentary about infidelity.

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Speaker 7: I don't know how many different girlfriends he had during

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Speaker 7: this time. But I think there were quite a few

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Speaker 7: young women. Listen to my advice. If you're married and

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Speaker 7: you think you're happily married and your husband started to

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Speaker 7: cheat on you, he's a piece of shit, and look

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Speaker 7: at him. It's a piece of shit, and get out

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Speaker 7: of it, get out of that marriage. But I couldn't

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Speaker 7: do that, couldn't walk away. Didn't you have an affair

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Speaker 7: early on in the relationship or when you were a Yeah,

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Speaker 7: but I don't think Andy ever knew about that.

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Speaker 8: He did say anything about it.

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Speaker 7: He did, Yes, you would confess to him.

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Speaker 2: Sess He didn't straight from the marriage until you told

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Speaker 2: him you had already straight.

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Speaker 7: Oh that's not true. I don't think.

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Speaker 1: Amelia and I've watched this documentary. We adored it. Jesse

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Speaker 1: hasn't seen it yet. What was interesting to me was

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Speaker 1: realizing that all this talk about Ballerina farm and Nara Smith,

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Speaker 1: all these tradwives and influencers who make the work of

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Speaker 1: homemaking and parenting look effortless while running these big businesses

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Speaker 1: and making a huge amount of money from looking effortless.

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Speaker 1: She really was the original influencer. Didn't you think, Amelia

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Speaker 1: so What was your takeaways from the documentary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it got me thinking about what an influencer is

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Speaker 2: and what makes for an influencer. There was this recent

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Speaker 2: survey of the American Labor Force that said seven percent

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Speaker 2: of Americans describe themselves as influencers as their job. Now,

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Speaker 2: this climate can't be true, the figure cannot be that high.

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Speaker 2: But when you think about what makes for an influencer,

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Speaker 2: it comes down to a person who can get other

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Speaker 2: people to spend money. That's what it comes down to.

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Speaker 2: I read a great definition of it recently by Emily

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Speaker 2: Sunberg at the newsletter The Feed. She wrote, what the

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Speaker 2: followers of these women really want is to step into

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Speaker 2: their lives for a few minutes each day. And that

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Speaker 2: got me thinking about how you can draw a straight

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Speaker 2: line from Martha Stewart to Gwyneth Paltrow, and then I

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Speaker 2: would argue a dotted line from both those women to

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Speaker 2: Zoe Foster Blake.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. So all women who have built incredible business

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Speaker 1: empires and who other women are really obsessed with their lives.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they get us to take out our wallets. They've

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Speaker 2: successfully monetized not just their taste, I would say, but

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Speaker 2: their lives. We think, for a few minutes each day,

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Speaker 2: if we buy a Martha Stuart Kmart piece of home wears,

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Speaker 2: or if we buy Gwyneth's new skincare line or Zoe

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Speaker 2: foster Blake skincare line, we're actually wanting to grab a

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Speaker 2: piece of their lives.

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Speaker 1: But isn't that the same with every celebrity who's ever

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Speaker 1: endorsed a product, every celebrity who has a fragrance.

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Speaker 3: I don't think so. And this is where I actually

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Speaker 3: think Martha Stewart is unlike a lot of influencers, and

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Speaker 3: that is that she is, as far as I can tell,

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Speaker 3: extremely talented. For example, it started with cooking and catering.

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Speaker 3: That is a real skill. It can be kind of

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Speaker 3: disparaged in the treadwife world, but being a great cook

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Speaker 3: is like it's a really good skill. And then there's

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Speaker 3: interior design and then even like how to set a table,

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Speaker 3: like there is real status in that. And it's the

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Speaker 3: same with Zoe Foster Blake. I think this pouchhow is

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Speaker 3: very good at marketing. But I wonder if that's a

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Speaker 3: bit of the tension that's emerged between them.

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Speaker 1: I would call Zoe and Gwyneth and Martha influential, not

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Speaker 1: influenzas I would actually put Zoe quite separate. Although it's

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Speaker 1: interesting for all of those women, they are naturally talented

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Speaker 1: at a particular thing. For Zoe it's writing, she's a

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Speaker 1: brilliant writer. For Gwyneth, it's acting. For Martha, it was

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Speaker 1: actually cooking and homemaking. And I think what's interesting about

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Speaker 1: her and what the documentary, which she didn't like. By

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Speaker 1: the way, she's come out and said a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of things that she didn't like about it. You could

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Speaker 1: hear she probably didn't like that in exchange about the infidelity,

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Speaker 1: but she critiqued almost everything, from camera angles to music choices.

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Speaker 1: She told The New York Times she hated the scenes

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Speaker 1: at the end, where she said she looked like a

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Speaker 1: lonely old lady walking hunched over in the garden. She

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Speaker 1: didn't like how she looked on camera. She thought there

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Speaker 1: should have been more rap music involved and that would

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Speaker 1: have been more interesting. And it made me see how

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Speaker 1: many documentaries that we watch about celebrities, and there's a

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Speaker 1: whole host of them at the moment, from Harry and

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Speaker 1: Meghan to the David Beckham documentary. They're now making one

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Speaker 1: about Victoria Beckham, Taylor Swift. Of course, they all have

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Speaker 1: creative control and approval. And even Oprah, who Apple was

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Speaker 1: making a documentary about and they finished and she paid

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Speaker 1: to buy it back so it would never be released

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Speaker 1: because she didn't like it. And I think that's why

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Speaker 1: I like this documentary. What did it make you feel

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Speaker 1: about Martha herself?

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Speaker 2: Amelia, Well, I think that's why I want to push

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Speaker 2: back on Jesse's idea that it's about skill. I think

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Speaker 2: all three of these women are so smart, so brilliant,

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Speaker 2: they deserve every dollar that they've made. But I think

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Speaker 2: that their greatest skill is marketing. And is marketing an

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Speaker 2: idea of perfect imperfection or imperfect perfection. This word perfect

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Speaker 2: comes up for Martha all the time. That's what she

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Speaker 2: was selling with the perfectly made tables and the perfect

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Speaker 2: Thanksgiving turkeys.

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Speaker 1: But the idea is that she lets us.

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Speaker 2: In to tiny parts of her life that are anything

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Speaker 2: but perfect, and she keeps us wanting more from it.

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Speaker 2: So a couple of things that come up in the dosh.

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Speaker 1: You mean in the documentary, because not in her before

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Speaker 1: she went to prison, like her magazines and her public persona,

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Speaker 1: does she let us in she certainly didn't used to

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Speaker 1: because there was all that stuff about how she was

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Speaker 1: the Queen of mean before it came out about Ellen.

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Speaker 1: It reminded me so much of that thing about the

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Speaker 1: worst thing a woman can do in business or in

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Speaker 1: life is be assertive. And it showed some scenes of

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Speaker 1: Martha's Stewitt in the kitchen with people who were working

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Speaker 1: with her for her, and she was really rude to

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Speaker 1: them and really short.

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Speaker 2: That's true, but she's now a huge influencer in her

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Speaker 2: own right coming out of prison letting it all hang

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Speaker 2: out in this documentary. The New York Times had recently

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Speaker 2: that she is a gen Z beauty influencer, and she specifically,

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Speaker 2: what do you mean? So she advertises clay to Postkincare,

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Speaker 2: which is a really expensive skincare brand. The creams are

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Speaker 2: all four hundred dollars and up on TikTok from her

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Speaker 2: Connecticut mansion. She's routinely getting seventy eighty million views for

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Speaker 2: these skincare advertisements, and so the relatability of it is

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Speaker 2: part of why she's taken off with a new generation.

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Speaker 2: So let's run through a few things that she talks

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Speaker 2: about quite frankly in this documentary the first marriage ending

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Speaker 2: in divorce, as we've discussed, and she shares with the

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Speaker 2: documentary makers letters that she sent her ex husband begging

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Speaker 2: him to take her back. That's an extraordinary amount of disclosure.

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Speaker 1: That was quite j lo. I thought it was.

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Speaker 2: She's admitted that she didn't feel naturally maternal towards her

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Speaker 2: daughter Alexis, and this is something that her daughter has

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Speaker 2: spoken about over the years, the fact that while she

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Speaker 2: and her mother are very close, her mother was never

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Speaker 2: a straightforwardly maternal figure for her. She didn't come.

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Speaker 1: Across as very warm. And I kept finding myself texting, you,

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Speaker 1: have you ever seen a more unlikable woman like her? Unlikability?

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Speaker 1: And I know this is a real weapon that we

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Speaker 1: use against women, this idea of needing to be likable.

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Speaker 1: What was interesting is that she wasn't trying to be likable.

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Speaker 2: No, when Nora's Gwyneth, by the way, Gwyneth is also I.

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Speaker 1: Feel like Gwyneth tries to be likable. I think Martha

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Speaker 1: is really like, yeah, I didn't like being a mum

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Speaker 1: that much. My husband was a dickhead. People need to

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Speaker 1: be better.

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Speaker 2: She was on Drew Barrymore's show this week and Drew's

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Speaker 2: famously touchy with her guests, and she just pushed her away.

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Speaker 2: I loved that.

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Speaker 3: I think it's the complexity that makes her a complicated

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Speaker 3: monet painting that we can't stop staring at, because in

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Speaker 3: a lot of ways she actually subverts the feminine. It's like,

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Speaker 3: in one way she's the antitrad wife. Even her voice

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Speaker 3: is a bit deeper, she's disagreeable. She doesn't come across

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Speaker 3: as pleasant. It doesn't seem to be like her aim

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Speaker 3: to come across as pleasant. Like compare that to a

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Speaker 3: ballerina farm Hannah Nielman, who from the high voice to

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Speaker 3: the slow talking to the there's something so tranquil about

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Speaker 3: it and subservient.

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Speaker 1: They're both very much with Hannah Nielman's husband and Nara

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Speaker 1: Smith's husband, Lucky Blue. It's always in the service. They're

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Speaker 1: working in the service of their husband and children, and

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Speaker 1: they're always very much in the service. Whereas that's so interesting,

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Speaker 1: Martha's more about I'm doing this because I like, I

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Speaker 1: want a nice table, and I want to be gardening,

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Speaker 1: and I want to be making a nice Christmas dinner

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Speaker 1: because it gives me joy.

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Speaker 2: And she fucked the rest of you and she flirts

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Speaker 2: with the male gaze, but she also rejects it. So

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Speaker 2: she's on the cover of Sports Illustrated. She dates famous man.

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Speaker 2: She dated Anthony Hopkins, which I didn't know, but she

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Speaker 2: broke up with him because she said she couldn't stop

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Speaker 2: thinking about Hannibal Lecter. And she's spoken up very openly

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Speaker 2: about how difficult it has been for her to date

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Speaker 2: in midlife and beyond.

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Speaker 1: She's quite beyond midlife. I would say she's eighty three.

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Speaker 1: Is she still dating?

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Speaker 2: She is, And she.

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Speaker 3: Says that she's got no plans to retire, like she

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Speaker 3: doesn't see anything appealing about retirement. But I was thinking

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Speaker 3: about a quote I read recently about fame and how

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Speaker 3: people become famous to feel understood. That's the number one

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Speaker 3: reason is that they want people to understand them. And

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Speaker 3: after that documentary, there was a headline that said she

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Speaker 3: still doesn't feel understood, and she doesn't, and I wonder

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Speaker 3: if that's why she doesn't want to retire. She's not

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Speaker 3: done yet. She feels like people don't fully get her.

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Speaker 3: And that's my question, as someone who hasn't watched the documentary.

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Speaker 3: Are we laughing at Martha Stuart or are we laughing

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Speaker 3: with Martha Stuart because she's become this cultural icon in

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Speaker 3: the last few years. She kind of pops up with

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Speaker 3: Snoop Dogg. She's like, again, this complicated figure and I've

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Speaker 3: seen viral clips from this, like the one about her

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Speaker 3: affairs and her relationships and stuff, and I have a laugh.

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Speaker 3: But do you think she feels like we're laughing at her?

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Speaker 1: What a great question. No, I think that she's more like,

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Speaker 1: you know, how Betty White became iconic, Yeah, and Ruth

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Speaker 1: Baty Ginsburg was iconic. I know that's different. She was

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court judge and has her own complicated history.

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Speaker 1: But I don't I think people are laughing at her.

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Speaker 1: I'm not laughing.

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Speaker 2: About Miron's another one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the Queen. Like it's kind of like, I

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Speaker 1: hate to say it, but like they're so old they're cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, It's like they've come back again. It's like retro.

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Speaker 3: Was this documentary good for her brand or bad?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think the very fact that she's still selling

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Speaker 2: really expensive skincare to gen z on TikTok means that

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Speaker 2: it was great for her brand. I think we now

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Speaker 2: crave the deconstruction of perfection that she's revealing to us

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Speaker 2: in this, don't you think, Miah, Yeah, And I think

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Speaker 2: that what it did do Jesse, that's so interesting what

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Speaker 2: you say about they want to be understood.

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Speaker 1: I think that's incredibly astute. I think what it reminded

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Speaker 1: me a little bit like watching the Menendez Brothers documentary.

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Speaker 1: I think, I know what I think about these people.

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Speaker 1: And I thought I knew what I thought about Martha Stewart,

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Speaker 1: but I changed my mind after watching the documentary and

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that was bullshit that she got

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Speaker 1: sent to prison. Yeah, it is like, yeah, soso bad.

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Speaker 1: And similarly to the Menandez brothers, like I thought that

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Speaker 1: they'd made up all those allegations. That was my understanding

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Speaker 1: because the reason I think that where relooking at all

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Speaker 1: of these things. You know, we've got this segment all

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Speaker 1: or nothing where you either know everything about a topic

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Speaker 1: or nothing. The Internet allows you to know everything about

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Speaker 1: any topic if you want to. But back in the

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Speaker 1: nineties and the eighties and until the last ten years,

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Speaker 1: there was a limited amount of information you could get

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Speaker 1: about a certain topic. You know, if you wanted to

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Speaker 1: dive deep, there wasn't really a way you could particularly

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Speaker 1: for someone like Martha Stewart who wasn't iconic in Australia,

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Speaker 1: and same with the Menendez brothers. I was kind of

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Speaker 1: dimly aware of that story, but now it's like these

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Speaker 1: stories are international.

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Speaker 2: You're also making me think about how I felt after

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Speaker 2: watching Harry and Meghan's documentary versus how I felt watching this.

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Speaker 2: Once I'd watched Harry and Megan's documentary, I didn't need

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Speaker 2: to know anything else. But having watched the Martha documentary,

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Speaker 2: it's like Jesse said, she's a monet painting. I want

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Speaker 2: to know everything, and I still don't know everything.

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Speaker 1: When you say that about Harry and Meghan, do you

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Speaker 1: mean I'd like I'd eaten too much at the buffet,

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Speaker 1: Like all the mystery was gone, all the interest was gone.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't the push pull of that collaboration between a

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Speaker 2: director and their subject. This was more of a push

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Speaker 2: pool dynamic, and so there were points where it was uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of points where it was uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: The filmmaker would leave the camera on Martha as she

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Speaker 2: finished a thought and then wanted the camera to be

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Speaker 2: turned off, and I felt like that push pool made

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Speaker 2: me want to know more.

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Speaker 3: The other thing that Martha appears to have done, at

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Speaker 3: least in what I've read and clips I've seen, is

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Speaker 3: that she owns that she's really, really rich, and she

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Speaker 3: quite likes being really really rich, which we don't see

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Speaker 3: very often with women in Australia. You would never ever

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Speaker 3: get away with it. But watching that and watching a

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Speaker 3: woman who owns it is sort of refreshing, but also complicated.

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Speaker 1: The fact that she's self made. And I keep coming

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Speaker 1: back to what you say about not feeling understood. She

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Speaker 1: doesn't get the credit she deserves, as so many female

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Speaker 1: business owners don't, and I would include Zoe among them,

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Speaker 1: where it's like they have built these multi million dollar

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Speaker 1: empires entirely on their own, and that's pretty bloody impressive.

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Speaker 1: Is she still as culturally relevant in America as she

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Speaker 1: used to be?

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Speaker 2: I think she's even more so. They talk about in

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Speaker 2: the documentary. This big turning point for her was when

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Speaker 2: she went on a roast of Justin Bieber in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 2: That's when she actually met Snoop Dogg and they became

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Speaker 2: very good friends. She had been out of the public

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Speaker 2: eye for a long time after prison. She was a

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Speaker 2: punchline to your earlier question, Jesse, she was a South

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Speaker 2: Park punchline in fact, But then when she went back

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Speaker 2: on Comedy Central and this roast of Justin Bieber, people

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Speaker 2: thought that the jokes were really ribald and funny and

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Speaker 2: definitely pushed the envelope. Were you shocked by that? I didn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't get to that part of the documentary.

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Speaker 1: I got distracted.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was shocked by the jokes and how like,

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Speaker 2: what were they? They really pushed the envelope.

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Speaker 1: Rip bold is not a word you hear often on

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Speaker 1: this podcast.

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Speaker 2: There were jokes that sort of pushed the envelope in

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Speaker 2: terms of how you talk about race. There were jokes

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Speaker 2: that also people made fun of her for being really,

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Speaker 2: really old, and she laughed about it, wearing her leather

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Speaker 2: leggings and her Dreasman note and embroidered jacket. I mean,

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Speaker 2: she just came across as tough as nails, and I

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Speaker 2: think we really at this point respond to that and

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Speaker 2: with no fucks to give.

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Speaker 3: It's nice to see Snoop again.

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Speaker 7: One of the highest rated episodes on my show, Martha

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Speaker 7: Stewart Living was when Snoop and I made brownies together.

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Speaker 7: And I've used this recipe ever since. As a matter

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Speaker 7: of fact, I ate three of them right before they

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Speaker 7: called and asked me to do this.

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Speaker 2: Rose in a moment. A UK TV presenter made a

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Speaker 2: comment about Kate Middleton on the weekend and let's just

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Speaker 2: say it got us all thinking out loud.

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Speaker 3: An article ran in Grazia on Tuesday with the headline

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Speaker 3: She's aged so much. The vile commentary around Kate Middleton's

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Speaker 3: appearance needs to stop. At first, I rolled my eyes

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Speaker 3: because it felt like one of those classic Internet tropes

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Speaker 3: of using mock horror to incentivize people to click on

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Speaker 3: a less than flattering photo. I thought, this is just

433
00:22:40,767 --> 00:22:45,127
Speaker 3: engagement baiting. The publication says, they're saying this is a

434
00:22:45,207 --> 00:22:49,087
Speaker 3: terrible photo. They're saying she looks old, how offensive. Here's

435
00:22:49,087 --> 00:22:51,887
Speaker 3: the photo, please leave comments below. And from that I

436
00:22:52,007 --> 00:22:54,687
Speaker 3: just went I'm not going to engage. But then I

437
00:22:54,727 --> 00:22:57,447
Speaker 3: saw where the comments had come from and I thought

438
00:22:57,447 --> 00:23:00,767
Speaker 3: that this actually was a valid news story. First, I

439
00:23:00,767 --> 00:23:04,287
Speaker 3: should say Kate Middleton, the Princess of Wales, appeared at

440
00:23:04,327 --> 00:23:08,247
Speaker 3: a remembrance Sunday service in London and since completing her

441
00:23:08,327 --> 00:23:13,567
Speaker 3: chemotherapy treat in September, She's been slowly returning to royal duties,

442
00:23:14,047 --> 00:23:16,567
Speaker 3: and images of her in a black dress and a

443
00:23:16,607 --> 00:23:20,807
Speaker 3: black hat were published widely online. We can, of course

444
00:23:20,847 --> 00:23:23,527
Speaker 3: expect the internet to be cruel, there's nothing new about that.

445
00:23:24,327 --> 00:23:27,687
Speaker 3: But there was one particular comment on X from a

446
00:23:27,807 --> 00:23:32,007
Speaker 3: high profile British TV presenter who regularly appears on Good

447
00:23:32,007 --> 00:23:35,007
Speaker 3: Morning Britain and Loose Women. Her name is Narinda Corp.

448
00:23:35,367 --> 00:23:39,007
Speaker 3: She shared an image of Middleton with the comment genuine question,

449
00:23:39,487 --> 00:23:42,687
Speaker 3: why has Kate aged so much? Isn't she only forty two?

450
00:23:43,287 --> 00:23:45,847
Speaker 3: Is she a smoker? It's the only explanation.

451
00:23:46,247 --> 00:23:47,447
Speaker 1: Was she high? This woman?

452
00:23:47,687 --> 00:23:50,767
Speaker 3: It's the most bizarre tweet.

453
00:23:50,527 --> 00:23:52,127
Speaker 1: If you want to think it. I can't control what

454
00:23:52,167 --> 00:23:55,567
Speaker 1: you think, but like, firstly, did you miss the cancer part?

455
00:23:55,647 --> 00:23:58,567
Speaker 1: And secondly why share that with the world? Like what

456
00:23:58,687 --> 00:23:59,927
Speaker 1: did she think she was doing?

457
00:24:00,087 --> 00:24:04,527
Speaker 3: Yes? So she's since apologized. Unsurprisingly, she faced a lot

458
00:24:04,527 --> 00:24:08,367
Speaker 3: of backlash. She apologized with a video on social media,

459
00:24:08,407 --> 00:24:09,487
Speaker 3: and here's what she said.

460
00:24:09,647 --> 00:24:12,607
Speaker 4: I put out a stupid tweet that wasn't my intention.

461
00:24:12,727 --> 00:24:16,447
Speaker 4: My intent was not to be malicious or nasty or anything.

462
00:24:16,647 --> 00:24:18,967
Speaker 4: I'm not like that. Anybody who knows me it was

463
00:24:19,047 --> 00:24:21,767
Speaker 4: stupid to ask about the aging. I've admitted that, and

464
00:24:21,847 --> 00:24:24,767
Speaker 4: I put my hands up and I've apologized if it

465
00:24:24,807 --> 00:24:29,207
Speaker 4: caused offense. I didn't wish death on anyone. I didn't

466
00:24:29,247 --> 00:24:33,607
Speaker 4: do anything like that. I asked about aging. She smoked

467
00:24:34,927 --> 00:24:36,967
Speaker 4: nothing to do with cancer.

468
00:24:37,447 --> 00:24:39,367
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think that the emission of the cancer

469
00:24:39,407 --> 00:24:42,167
Speaker 3: was actually kind of the problem. But Google trends, since

470
00:24:42,207 --> 00:24:44,687
Speaker 3: all this has happened, Google Trends shows a spike in

471
00:24:44,767 --> 00:24:49,567
Speaker 3: searchers for Kate Middleton looks Tired, Kate Middleton aging, and

472
00:24:49,687 --> 00:24:53,727
Speaker 3: Kate Middleton looks old. My question is what is wrong

473
00:24:53,767 --> 00:24:54,127
Speaker 3: with us?

474
00:24:54,327 --> 00:24:57,567
Speaker 2: My question is how are those Google searchers. Kate Middleton

475
00:24:57,647 --> 00:24:59,087
Speaker 2: looks tired is a statement.

476
00:25:00,207 --> 00:25:02,807
Speaker 1: I would defend that, not defendant explain it in saying,

477
00:25:02,847 --> 00:25:05,967
Speaker 1: if you're looking for the original, you'd heard something about

478
00:25:05,967 --> 00:25:07,727
Speaker 1: it and you wanted you knew it would link you

479
00:25:07,767 --> 00:25:11,087
Speaker 1: with the photo or the original apsource material. I'm going

480
00:25:11,127 --> 00:25:14,687
Speaker 1: to now not defend nerindacal, but kind of defend her

481
00:25:14,847 --> 00:25:16,687
Speaker 1: after saying I think she was high, and of course

482
00:25:16,687 --> 00:25:18,727
Speaker 1: she should never have said it. What I think this

483
00:25:18,807 --> 00:25:22,527
Speaker 1: is an indication of, however, is actually nothing to do

484
00:25:22,567 --> 00:25:25,007
Speaker 1: with Kate Middleton it's about the fact that we don't

485
00:25:25,047 --> 00:25:28,007
Speaker 1: know what women look like anymore. We're just not sure

486
00:25:28,287 --> 00:25:32,367
Speaker 1: what women are meant to look like because everyone famous

487
00:25:32,727 --> 00:25:36,367
Speaker 1: kind of looks this same weird age, whether they're Nicole

488
00:25:36,447 --> 00:25:40,087
Speaker 1: Kidman who's almost sixty, or Kylie Jenner. Everyone is sort

489
00:25:40,087 --> 00:25:43,687
Speaker 1: of this nondescript, strange age. So if there's a time

490
00:25:44,807 --> 00:25:49,047
Speaker 1: that a woman is perhaps not having the tweakments that

491
00:25:49,127 --> 00:25:53,327
Speaker 1: she once had, or she is tired, or maybe she's

492
00:25:53,367 --> 00:25:57,167
Speaker 1: recovering from cancer, or who knows what is happening, we're

493
00:25:57,207 --> 00:26:00,407
Speaker 1: just like, oh, wait, what does a female face look

494
00:26:00,567 --> 00:26:04,167
Speaker 1: like anymore? I actually don't know. And it's something that

495
00:26:04,487 --> 00:26:07,287
Speaker 1: friends and I in my group chats often do when

496
00:26:07,367 --> 00:26:10,687
Speaker 1: we see someone's not in this way where it's like, oh,

497
00:26:10,727 --> 00:26:14,527
Speaker 1: doesn't she look tired. It's almost like a CSI forensic

498
00:26:14,567 --> 00:26:20,767
Speaker 1: analysis of trying to understand how women look a certain way,

499
00:26:21,687 --> 00:26:24,247
Speaker 1: not necessarily because we want to emulate them, but just

500
00:26:24,287 --> 00:26:26,927
Speaker 1: trying to understand this look that people have.

501
00:26:27,247 --> 00:26:30,327
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the old adage that cosmetic surgery doesn't

502
00:26:30,367 --> 00:26:33,047
Speaker 2: necessarily make you look younger, it just makes it look

503
00:26:33,127 --> 00:26:36,407
Speaker 2: like you had cosmetic surgery. And when now there's this

504
00:26:36,567 --> 00:26:41,047
Speaker 2: growing bucket of women for whom age is just a

505
00:26:41,127 --> 00:26:43,767
Speaker 2: number and they're sort of untethered from the timeline.

506
00:26:44,087 --> 00:26:48,487
Speaker 3: I think that the chemo, the health context, and the

507
00:26:48,527 --> 00:26:52,047
Speaker 3: smoking comment is all really critical to this story. The

508
00:26:52,127 --> 00:26:56,727
Speaker 3: smoking comment was so revealing, and it was revealing because

509
00:26:57,247 --> 00:27:01,687
Speaker 3: we look at aging now as a personal failing, almost

510
00:27:01,807 --> 00:27:05,927
Speaker 3: like I can see that you haven't prioritized your health, But.

511
00:27:05,967 --> 00:27:08,887
Speaker 1: Isn't it I know you haven't prioritized your face.

512
00:27:09,407 --> 00:27:12,007
Speaker 3: Yes, but I think that what we've done is we

513
00:27:12,087 --> 00:27:14,927
Speaker 3: have made your face a proxy for health in a

514
00:27:14,927 --> 00:27:18,407
Speaker 3: way that's not the truth, but that's what we It's

515
00:27:18,447 --> 00:27:22,247
Speaker 3: like the shorthand now is someone goes and gets the

516
00:27:22,287 --> 00:27:25,687
Speaker 3: tweakments and they look well, and so it's almost like

517
00:27:25,807 --> 00:27:28,927
Speaker 3: this moral failing if you don't get all of those,

518
00:27:29,007 --> 00:27:32,127
Speaker 3: because people go, oh, that is the number one reason

519
00:27:32,327 --> 00:27:34,727
Speaker 3: women I know say they've had the tweagments is that

520
00:27:34,767 --> 00:27:37,367
Speaker 3: they don't want to look tired. Not that they want

521
00:27:37,367 --> 00:27:39,727
Speaker 3: to look younger, but that they want to look well.

522
00:27:39,847 --> 00:27:41,207
Speaker 3: They want to look healthy.

523
00:27:40,927 --> 00:27:43,407
Speaker 1: Because we're a raising effort. Isn't that what it's all about?

524
00:27:43,447 --> 00:27:46,367
Speaker 1: Isn't that what beauty standards are about? Back to Martha Stewart,

525
00:27:46,407 --> 00:27:51,167
Speaker 1: and influencers. We're raising the effort and we're also raising

526
00:27:51,487 --> 00:27:55,487
Speaker 1: the biology of growing older because ironically, if Kate and

527
00:27:55,527 --> 00:27:57,967
Speaker 1: it's just seems so yucky to even be talking about this,

528
00:27:58,007 --> 00:28:00,847
Speaker 1: but if Kate is looking a certain way, you know,

529
00:28:00,887 --> 00:28:04,207
Speaker 1: she also got criticized and people commented when she looked

530
00:28:04,247 --> 00:28:09,247
Speaker 1: completely untouched by her cancer treatment when she was first

531
00:28:09,527 --> 00:28:12,527
Speaker 1: appeared at the Trooping of the Color in that white dress.

532
00:28:12,967 --> 00:28:15,407
Speaker 1: And I think that's so interesting, Jesse, because it made

533
00:28:15,407 --> 00:28:19,927
Speaker 1: me think about the controversy that happened in twenty thirteen

534
00:28:19,967 --> 00:28:23,287
Speaker 1: when Hillary Mantel, the late book Or Prize winner, gave

535
00:28:23,327 --> 00:28:25,807
Speaker 1: a lecture at the British Museum called Royal Bodies. And

536
00:28:25,847 --> 00:28:28,447
Speaker 1: it was around the time, ironically, Kate had withdrawn from

537
00:28:28,447 --> 00:28:32,727
Speaker 1: public life because she had severe morning sickness. And what

538
00:28:32,847 --> 00:28:35,727
Speaker 1: she said was she was talking about the role of

539
00:28:36,207 --> 00:28:39,807
Speaker 1: royal women and how essentially their role is purely to

540
00:28:39,887 --> 00:28:43,007
Speaker 1: be ornamental and it is purely about their esthetics and

541
00:28:43,087 --> 00:28:46,367
Speaker 1: also breed. And she said Kate seems to have been

542
00:28:46,367 --> 00:28:49,487
Speaker 1: selected for her role of princess because she was irreproachable,

543
00:28:49,527 --> 00:28:52,767
Speaker 1: as painfully thin as anyone could wish, without quirks, without oddities,

544
00:28:53,047 --> 00:28:55,927
Speaker 1: without the risk of the emergence of character. She appears

545
00:28:55,967 --> 00:28:59,487
Speaker 1: precision made, machine made, so different from Diana, whose human

546
00:28:59,527 --> 00:29:03,807
Speaker 1: awkwardness and emotional incontinence showed her every gesture. I thought

547
00:29:03,887 --> 00:29:07,327
Speaker 1: this was so interesting because as much like that is

548
00:29:07,407 --> 00:29:10,567
Speaker 1: Kate's role. It's not to have a person or opinions,

549
00:29:10,687 --> 00:29:13,047
Speaker 1: or to do a physical job. It's to be ornamental

550
00:29:13,167 --> 00:29:18,607
Speaker 1: and shine the light of her attractiveness on whatever she's

551
00:29:18,607 --> 00:29:21,927
Speaker 1: standing next to, whether it's the king or the heir,

552
00:29:22,087 --> 00:29:25,127
Speaker 1: her son, or the charity that she's promoting.

553
00:29:25,367 --> 00:29:27,487
Speaker 2: Mantel got a lot of criticism for that at the time,

554
00:29:27,527 --> 00:29:30,647
Speaker 2: I remember, and then eventually she came out and said, look,

555
00:29:30,687 --> 00:29:33,807
Speaker 2: that wasn't intended as criticism. I was actually trying to

556
00:29:33,927 --> 00:29:37,367
Speaker 2: sympathize with Kate's plight. She is trapped. She has to

557
00:29:37,407 --> 00:29:41,127
Speaker 2: be perfect no matter what, and that's very much a prison.

558
00:29:41,567 --> 00:29:43,287
Speaker 2: And it made me think of the fact that she

559
00:29:43,367 --> 00:29:46,767
Speaker 2: got all this criticism Kate did when that video came

560
00:29:46,767 --> 00:29:50,087
Speaker 2: out recently of her and the family announcing that she

561
00:29:50,167 --> 00:29:54,167
Speaker 2: had completed her treatment. A Guardian article by Hillary Osborne,

562
00:29:54,567 --> 00:29:57,287
Speaker 2: which was published about that video, described it as soft focus.

563
00:29:57,407 --> 00:29:59,847
Speaker 2: She was very disparaging. She said that look. The author

564
00:29:59,887 --> 00:30:02,207
Speaker 2: had been through cancer treatment, and she said, I found

565
00:30:02,247 --> 00:30:05,807
Speaker 2: this video upsetting because it seemed to underplay the strain

566
00:30:05,887 --> 00:30:07,127
Speaker 2: of cancer treatment. Yeah.

567
00:30:07,127 --> 00:30:09,927
Speaker 1: I was joking with my friends if she's out scouting

568
00:30:09,927 --> 00:30:12,847
Speaker 1: for fields to run through. But I don't blame Kate

569
00:30:12,967 --> 00:30:16,567
Speaker 1: Middleton for doing that, because that's what the public needs.

570
00:30:16,607 --> 00:30:18,887
Speaker 2: If she doesn't do it, she's told that she's a

571
00:30:19,127 --> 00:30:22,527
Speaker 2: secret smoker who's tired. Yeah, she really is trapped in

572
00:30:22,567 --> 00:30:25,887
Speaker 2: that way that Hillary Mantel highlighted. That same article had

573
00:30:25,887 --> 00:30:27,767
Speaker 2: a phrase in it that I've been thinking about a lot.

574
00:30:27,807 --> 00:30:30,527
Speaker 2: I have some loved ones going through cancer treatment. She

575
00:30:30,607 --> 00:30:32,887
Speaker 2: talked to in the article about how after you finish chemo,

576
00:30:33,127 --> 00:30:36,367
Speaker 2: you linger in a sort of grayness, and that idea

577
00:30:36,407 --> 00:30:40,287
Speaker 2: of grayness and the physical aftershocks of it go beyond

578
00:30:40,527 --> 00:30:42,487
Speaker 2: the hair that we all think of, for instance, to

579
00:30:42,567 --> 00:30:47,007
Speaker 2: this overall grayness of demeanor. And it must be really

580
00:30:47,087 --> 00:30:50,487
Speaker 2: hard if you are expected to be a perfect plastic princess,

581
00:30:50,727 --> 00:30:54,047
Speaker 2: as Hillary Mantel put it, when you're feeling that grayness.

582
00:30:54,567 --> 00:30:57,927
Speaker 3: Yes, there is the particular role that a princess plays,

583
00:30:58,487 --> 00:31:02,967
Speaker 3: but even for women who have survived cancer, and that

584
00:31:03,127 --> 00:31:06,527
Speaker 3: is a whole you know, physical experience I can't begin

585
00:31:06,607 --> 00:31:08,927
Speaker 3: to imagine. But a lot of my friends who have

586
00:31:08,927 --> 00:31:12,447
Speaker 3: then me into the next stage have talked about struggling

587
00:31:12,487 --> 00:31:15,207
Speaker 3: with body image, have talked about like, as you say,

588
00:31:15,367 --> 00:31:19,287
Speaker 3: from the skin to weight fluctuations, to the hair to

589
00:31:19,847 --> 00:31:22,527
Speaker 3: even like sex drive, all that kind of stuff, which

590
00:31:22,567 --> 00:31:26,487
Speaker 3: feels like such a silly thing to even worry about

591
00:31:26,687 --> 00:31:29,927
Speaker 3: in the wake of a brush with your own mortality.

592
00:31:30,327 --> 00:31:33,047
Speaker 1: But you're not free of beauty standards even when you're facing,

593
00:31:33,487 --> 00:31:35,127
Speaker 1: you know, a serious illness.

594
00:31:35,287 --> 00:31:38,007
Speaker 3: And this is just the classic. Yeah, it's a comment

595
00:31:38,047 --> 00:31:40,847
Speaker 3: about Kate, and it's very specific to that scenario, but

596
00:31:40,967 --> 00:31:44,887
Speaker 3: also to anyone who's had a really rough year and

597
00:31:45,047 --> 00:31:47,647
Speaker 3: is thinking I'm not looking my best. They just got

598
00:31:47,727 --> 00:31:51,167
Speaker 3: told you know exactly what everyone's thinking of you. Like,

599
00:31:51,287 --> 00:31:56,687
Speaker 3: let's remember Kate's year. In January, she underwent major abdominal surgery.

600
00:31:57,127 --> 00:32:02,247
Speaker 3: By March, it was that photoshopping controversy. Later that month,

601
00:32:02,447 --> 00:32:06,647
Speaker 3: she announces the cancer diagnosis. She then shares an update

602
00:32:06,687 --> 00:32:11,007
Speaker 3: in June, we know that she's undergoing preventative September, she

603
00:32:11,047 --> 00:32:14,327
Speaker 3: releases the video that we all saw, and she's only

604
00:32:14,487 --> 00:32:17,487
Speaker 3: just in the last few months returned to any royal duties.

605
00:32:17,887 --> 00:32:20,447
Speaker 3: That is a shit year, Like that is a really

606
00:32:20,487 --> 00:32:23,647
Speaker 3: shit year. And she turned up to this event over

607
00:32:23,687 --> 00:32:27,047
Speaker 3: the weekend for Remembrance Day, which obviously you know was

608
00:32:27,087 --> 00:32:29,567
Speaker 3: important to her and it's an important part of her role,

609
00:32:30,407 --> 00:32:32,567
Speaker 3: and people tell her she looks like shit. Like that

610
00:32:32,767 --> 00:32:35,647
Speaker 3: is just the cruelty of that and what it reveals

611
00:32:35,647 --> 00:32:38,047
Speaker 3: about our culture is so disturbing.

612
00:32:38,247 --> 00:32:41,407
Speaker 1: But it's not as though she's not aware of her

613
00:32:41,527 --> 00:32:44,967
Speaker 1: role and of society's expectations. And it was so interesting

614
00:32:46,207 --> 00:32:48,847
Speaker 1: seeing her at the trooping of the color and everything

615
00:32:49,287 --> 00:32:51,647
Speaker 1: she did was so coded. She had a tight white

616
00:32:51,727 --> 00:32:54,847
Speaker 1: dress on. I read a lot of think pieces around

617
00:32:54,927 --> 00:32:58,087
Speaker 1: that afterwards, and some people were disappointed that she looked

618
00:32:58,127 --> 00:33:01,527
Speaker 1: untouched by cancer and felt that it didn't, as you say,

619
00:33:01,567 --> 00:33:07,567
Speaker 1: reflect their experience, and others were comforted because they thought, oh,

620
00:33:07,847 --> 00:33:12,647
Speaker 1: after my cancer experience, I too could be back to

621
00:33:12,727 --> 00:33:16,167
Speaker 1: my normal self. And it reminded me of those bodies

622
00:33:16,207 --> 00:33:20,167
Speaker 1: bouncing back after babies, and that whole disgusting thing that

623
00:33:20,247 --> 00:33:23,567
Speaker 1: used to be on magazine covers and is now on

624
00:33:23,767 --> 00:33:28,447
Speaker 1: Instagram in many places where it's like we must raise

625
00:33:28,687 --> 00:33:36,447
Speaker 1: all signs of pain, trouble, emotional frailty, physical change from

626
00:33:36,607 --> 00:33:39,207
Speaker 1: women's faces and bodies. That's what our culture demands.

627
00:33:39,407 --> 00:33:41,407
Speaker 2: But I think it's interesting you bring up birth because

628
00:33:41,447 --> 00:33:44,487
Speaker 2: Kate's always been quietly courageous on this front. I don't

629
00:33:44,487 --> 00:33:47,567
Speaker 2: think Hillary Mantel ultimately gave her enough credit. Remember when

630
00:33:48,047 --> 00:33:51,007
Speaker 2: after her oldest son was born, George, they came out

631
00:33:51,007 --> 00:33:55,487
Speaker 2: of the hospital and she had still a visible bump,

632
00:33:55,687 --> 00:33:58,087
Speaker 2: but it was physically impossible for her not to have

633
00:33:58,167 --> 00:34:01,087
Speaker 2: had a physical change of shape, right, But she didn't

634
00:34:01,127 --> 00:34:03,287
Speaker 2: have to come out and do that right then and there.

635
00:34:03,527 --> 00:34:05,767
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she did. That was before Meghan had

636
00:34:05,847 --> 00:34:09,367
Speaker 1: reset the standards. That was a you know, it was

637
00:34:09,407 --> 00:34:11,607
Speaker 1: the son of the heir to the throne. I don't

638
00:34:11,647 --> 00:34:13,607
Speaker 1: think she couldn't, but I know what you mean. She

639
00:34:13,687 --> 00:34:18,007
Speaker 1: did choose a dress that showed I remember thinking at

640
00:34:18,007 --> 00:34:21,647
Speaker 1: the time feeling so grateful and how pitiful it was

641
00:34:22,087 --> 00:34:24,887
Speaker 1: because she looked perfect in every other way. You're right,

642
00:34:24,927 --> 00:34:27,247
Speaker 1: there was this tiny trace that was of course gone

643
00:34:27,287 --> 00:34:29,167
Speaker 1: by the time we next saw her. And again, not

644
00:34:29,247 --> 00:34:33,407
Speaker 1: criticism of her, but it's this beauty standard that insists women,

645
00:34:33,487 --> 00:34:35,447
Speaker 1: no matter what we're going through, no matter how old

646
00:34:35,527 --> 00:34:37,127
Speaker 1: or young we are, you can even see it in

647
00:34:37,167 --> 00:34:40,367
Speaker 1: Martha Stewart. She's eighty three, and yet she still has

648
00:34:40,447 --> 00:34:42,567
Speaker 1: to be relevant. She has to pose for the cover

649
00:34:42,647 --> 00:34:44,567
Speaker 1: of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit is she.

650
00:34:44,727 --> 00:34:46,847
Speaker 3: And the irony of this is that when you look

651
00:34:46,887 --> 00:34:50,207
Speaker 3: at that photo, she has had her makeup professionally done,

652
00:34:50,287 --> 00:34:52,407
Speaker 3: she's had her hair professionally done, she's had all the

653
00:34:52,447 --> 00:34:56,647
Speaker 3: clothes are immaculate, and still it wasn't enough. It's not

654
00:34:56,687 --> 00:34:59,927
Speaker 3: like she wasn't trying. She was, and still it was

655
00:35:00,047 --> 00:35:01,927
Speaker 3: like there was still criticism.

656
00:35:02,687 --> 00:35:05,567
Speaker 1: Before we move on, I want to just do a

657
00:35:05,607 --> 00:35:08,287
Speaker 1: little quick bit of feedback as a gift.

658
00:35:09,287 --> 00:35:10,447
Speaker 8: Oh, thanks for the feedback.

659
00:35:10,647 --> 00:35:12,087
Speaker 3: Great, I'd love your feedback.

660
00:35:12,687 --> 00:35:13,527
Speaker 7: What a gift.

661
00:35:15,607 --> 00:35:18,447
Speaker 3: I always worry that you've got feedback for me that

662
00:35:18,487 --> 00:35:20,367
Speaker 3: you're saying is a gift. Every time you bring this up,

663
00:35:20,407 --> 00:35:21,767
Speaker 3: I bristle because I am scared.

664
00:35:22,127 --> 00:35:24,487
Speaker 1: No, it's a new segment that I want to introduce

665
00:35:24,527 --> 00:35:27,367
Speaker 1: where anyone can bring a little bit of feedback, because feedback,

666
00:35:27,407 --> 00:35:29,367
Speaker 1: as we say here at MMA mea feedback is a gift.

667
00:35:29,527 --> 00:35:31,527
Speaker 2: Yeah, you told me last week my shirt was terrible.

668
00:35:31,567 --> 00:35:32,207
Speaker 2: That was a gift.

669
00:35:32,247 --> 00:35:34,807
Speaker 1: That was a gift. I said, burn your linen short

670
00:35:34,807 --> 00:35:37,607
Speaker 1: sleeved shirt. That was my feedback. It was indeed a gift.

671
00:35:38,447 --> 00:35:42,327
Speaker 1: My gift this week is to women writers on the

672
00:35:42,407 --> 00:35:47,167
Speaker 1: internet and also people interviewing women or men. It's a

673
00:35:47,207 --> 00:35:51,287
Speaker 1: mostly female thing. Please stop writing letters to your younger self.

674
00:35:51,607 --> 00:35:53,847
Speaker 3: Why has this riled you? What has come up in

675
00:35:53,927 --> 00:35:56,727
Speaker 3: your life? Because this is it. It's a thing. I'm

676
00:35:56,767 --> 00:35:59,847
Speaker 3: sure that we have dozens of them on a website

677
00:35:59,887 --> 00:36:02,607
Speaker 3: called Mamma Maya. Why today has this upset you?

678
00:36:03,007 --> 00:36:05,807
Speaker 1: It's been growing on me. The feedback has been brewing

679
00:36:05,847 --> 00:36:09,887
Speaker 1: for some time. I find it lazy, I find it boring.

680
00:36:10,527 --> 00:36:13,807
Speaker 1: I find it self indulgent, which is ironic given how

681
00:36:13,887 --> 00:36:17,127
Speaker 1: much I write about myself on the internet. It's not

682
00:36:17,207 --> 00:36:20,967
Speaker 1: that I'm not interested in women's opinions or women's experiences

683
00:36:21,047 --> 00:36:25,287
Speaker 1: or women's stories. Hell that's my business quite literally. But

684
00:36:25,847 --> 00:36:30,047
Speaker 1: this whole idea of when you write a letter, it's

685
00:36:30,207 --> 00:36:32,807
Speaker 1: like a letter to my twenty five year old self, like,

686
00:36:32,967 --> 00:36:35,567
Speaker 1: just stop it. I don't know why it annoys me

687
00:36:35,567 --> 00:36:36,727
Speaker 1: a merely does it annoy you?

688
00:36:36,887 --> 00:36:39,687
Speaker 2: Well, you know who would never do this, Martha Stewart,

689
00:36:39,727 --> 00:36:42,647
Speaker 2: because she had it all figured out from the age

690
00:36:42,647 --> 00:36:43,447
Speaker 2: of twenty five.

691
00:36:43,807 --> 00:36:46,887
Speaker 1: I just don't see the relevance I do. So I

692
00:36:46,887 --> 00:36:49,287
Speaker 1: feel like it's like saying I had this dream last

693
00:36:49,367 --> 00:36:51,687
Speaker 1: night and it was a bird, but it wasn't a bird,

694
00:36:51,727 --> 00:36:54,967
Speaker 1: it was actually my English teacher from fourth grade, and like,

695
00:36:55,087 --> 00:36:55,687
Speaker 1: I don't.

696
00:36:55,487 --> 00:36:57,887
Speaker 3: Care, I'm going to defend it. We're obsessed with youth

697
00:36:58,327 --> 00:37:01,767
Speaker 3: and we're always pandering to the young people. And if

698
00:37:01,807 --> 00:37:06,687
Speaker 3: I'm hearing my wisdom from Maya Friedman, who is in

699
00:37:06,727 --> 00:37:09,247
Speaker 3: her fifties, then what I want to know is how

700
00:37:09,247 --> 00:37:12,207
Speaker 3: well your life and your experience is are directly relevant

701
00:37:12,207 --> 00:37:14,687
Speaker 3: to me. And if I'm twenty five, what I would

702
00:37:14,767 --> 00:37:16,687
Speaker 3: like is for you to write a letter to me

703
00:37:17,287 --> 00:37:19,807
Speaker 3: and tell me how to make better decisions. And I

704
00:37:19,847 --> 00:37:22,447
Speaker 3: think that that's what it's about. It's also a very

705
00:37:22,967 --> 00:37:25,847
Speaker 3: low touch form of journalism in that you don't have

706
00:37:25,887 --> 00:37:28,487
Speaker 3: to do any research, you don't have to interview anyone

707
00:37:28,647 --> 00:37:31,487
Speaker 3: except yourself, and it's a very stream of consciousness. It

708
00:37:31,567 --> 00:37:32,567
Speaker 3: might just be your journal.

709
00:37:32,767 --> 00:37:34,927
Speaker 1: My letter would be very short. You're an idiot, but

710
00:37:35,007 --> 00:37:37,327
Speaker 1: you know everyone's an idiot when they're younger, and then

711
00:37:37,567 --> 00:37:39,807
Speaker 1: hopefully you become less of an idiot as you get older.

712
00:37:40,207 --> 00:37:43,527
Speaker 2: Finn me as feedback on feedback to your younger self,

713
00:37:43,567 --> 00:37:44,407
Speaker 2: stop doing.

714
00:37:44,207 --> 00:37:47,327
Speaker 3: It after the break. Dating is a job, not a hobby.

715
00:37:47,407 --> 00:37:49,407
Speaker 3: There is a new way to find love and it

716
00:37:49,487 --> 00:37:50,767
Speaker 3: is not for the fainthearted.

717
00:38:05,167 --> 00:38:10,847
Speaker 2: Loud design to be deleted. That's the tagline of one

718
00:38:10,847 --> 00:38:13,847
Speaker 2: of the most popular dating apps, which also promises to

719
00:38:13,887 --> 00:38:15,967
Speaker 2: be the dating app for people who want to get

720
00:38:15,967 --> 00:38:19,767
Speaker 2: off the dating apps. But a new investigation by the

721
00:38:19,847 --> 00:38:23,127
Speaker 2: UK publication The Observer has found that dating apps are

722
00:38:23,167 --> 00:38:25,887
Speaker 2: becoming more like gambling products. They're more like Poky's. They

723
00:38:25,927 --> 00:38:28,567
Speaker 2: encourage you to buy more and more extras, they get

724
00:38:28,607 --> 00:38:31,487
Speaker 2: you into game like features, and then they lock users

725
00:38:31,527 --> 00:38:35,607
Speaker 2: into what experts have called a perpetual pay to play loop.

726
00:38:36,567 --> 00:38:39,687
Speaker 2: So one woman has the answer to this loop, and

727
00:38:39,767 --> 00:38:42,407
Speaker 2: it starts with accepting that dating is not a game,

728
00:38:42,687 --> 00:38:46,207
Speaker 2: but rather a very serious business. So get out your

729
00:38:46,207 --> 00:38:48,847
Speaker 2: pen and paper take some notes. Her name is Jenny Young.

730
00:38:49,007 --> 00:38:51,247
Speaker 2: She is a fifty six year old professor of English

731
00:38:51,327 --> 00:38:54,407
Speaker 2: in the US, and last year she pioneered something called

732
00:38:54,447 --> 00:38:58,167
Speaker 2: the burned Haystack method. So she was back on the

733
00:38:58,207 --> 00:39:02,087
Speaker 2: dating market in midlife. She watched her daughter unsuccessfully swiping

734
00:39:02,127 --> 00:39:04,807
Speaker 2: through apps. She realized she did not have the energy

735
00:39:04,887 --> 00:39:07,607
Speaker 2: to do the same thing. She googled how to find

736
00:39:07,607 --> 00:39:10,887
Speaker 2: a needle in a haystack, and she realized you have

737
00:39:10,927 --> 00:39:13,287
Speaker 2: to burn the haystack to find the needle. You burn

738
00:39:13,327 --> 00:39:15,287
Speaker 2: the haystack and the needle is left on the ground

739
00:39:15,367 --> 00:39:18,687
Speaker 2: because metal doesn't burn. Okay, so it's a needle, a guy,

740
00:39:19,007 --> 00:39:22,287
Speaker 2: the girl. It's your romantic partner. The needle is your

741
00:39:22,647 --> 00:39:25,487
Speaker 2: love of your life. The basic principle as it applies

742
00:39:25,527 --> 00:39:27,407
Speaker 2: to dating, and by the way, this assumes you want

743
00:39:27,407 --> 00:39:31,007
Speaker 2: a long term monogamous relationship, which not everyone does. Caveat

744
00:39:31,047 --> 00:39:34,127
Speaker 2: there is to filter out time wasters and red flags

745
00:39:34,207 --> 00:39:36,767
Speaker 2: as soon as possible. You need to hard yes or

746
00:39:36,847 --> 00:39:39,047
Speaker 2: hard no anyone who comes into your own box on

747
00:39:39,047 --> 00:39:41,087
Speaker 2: the dating app as soon as possible. It's like Marie

748
00:39:41,167 --> 00:39:44,367
Speaker 2: Kondo for dating. And then you block anyone who's a no.

749
00:39:44,767 --> 00:39:47,287
Speaker 2: Rather than let them keep circulating around or do the

750
00:39:47,327 --> 00:39:49,567
Speaker 2: fade out or the slow burn. Forget it, you just

751
00:39:49,567 --> 00:39:52,207
Speaker 2: got to block them. So here's some examples. You might

752
00:39:52,287 --> 00:39:54,847
Speaker 2: match with someone who lives two hours away who might

753
00:39:55,007 --> 00:39:57,527
Speaker 2: be interested in a long term relationship. You block them.

754
00:39:58,567 --> 00:40:00,487
Speaker 2: The match doesn't want to meet in public, they just

755
00:40:00,487 --> 00:40:02,727
Speaker 2: want to meet it his or her apartment. You block them,

756
00:40:04,207 --> 00:40:07,847
Speaker 2: and the result is that the apps are suddenly working

757
00:40:08,167 --> 00:40:12,207
Speaker 2: for us instead of driving us mad. Is blocking different

758
00:40:12,407 --> 00:40:15,967
Speaker 2: to just not swipe? I haven't been on the apps?

759
00:40:16,687 --> 00:40:18,927
Speaker 2: How does it work? So part of what the apps

760
00:40:18,927 --> 00:40:21,847
Speaker 2: are doing by keeping you there is that no one

761
00:40:21,887 --> 00:40:24,807
Speaker 2: ever actually leaves your universe. You might stop sort of

762
00:40:24,887 --> 00:40:27,327
Speaker 2: dming with someone, but they might then show up again.

763
00:40:27,527 --> 00:40:30,447
Speaker 2: And it's very frustrating to have to keep interacting with

764
00:40:30,487 --> 00:40:32,287
Speaker 2: these people who you've decided you're not interested in.

765
00:40:32,447 --> 00:40:35,007
Speaker 1: So you swipe left or right, whatever it is if

766
00:40:35,047 --> 00:40:38,047
Speaker 1: you're not interested in them, But unless you block them,

767
00:40:38,087 --> 00:40:41,167
Speaker 1: they might be served to you again, like changed your mind? Yes,

768
00:40:41,287 --> 00:40:43,767
Speaker 1: Larry's still got two dogs.

769
00:40:43,527 --> 00:40:46,847
Speaker 2: And likes fishing. Yes. And the thing about Larry is

770
00:40:47,247 --> 00:40:49,327
Speaker 2: that you might be in a conversation with Larry and

771
00:40:49,367 --> 00:40:51,327
Speaker 2: then it might kind of die on the vine, and

772
00:40:51,367 --> 00:40:54,007
Speaker 2: then Larry might come back in two weeks time to

773
00:40:54,047 --> 00:40:56,687
Speaker 2: tell you about his new fishing escapades, and you just

774
00:40:56,767 --> 00:40:59,287
Speaker 2: got to block Larry because you're not interested in him.

775
00:40:59,847 --> 00:41:02,527
Speaker 2: So this was interesting to me, not because I'm on

776
00:41:02,607 --> 00:41:04,727
Speaker 2: the apps, but because.

777
00:41:04,447 --> 00:41:06,287
Speaker 1: Were you when you were single in New York?

778
00:41:06,327 --> 00:41:08,327
Speaker 2: A little bit? A little bit. I'm about to get

779
00:41:08,367 --> 00:41:11,847
Speaker 2: to that. Actually, it's formalizing an approach to finding love

780
00:41:12,207 --> 00:41:14,047
Speaker 2: that is quite familiar to me. I lived in New

781
00:41:14,127 --> 00:41:16,887
Speaker 2: York for eleven years, and New York women have known

782
00:41:16,967 --> 00:41:19,607
Speaker 2: for a long time that if you want a relationship,

783
00:41:19,767 --> 00:41:22,047
Speaker 2: you have to approach looking for it with the same

784
00:41:22,127 --> 00:41:24,727
Speaker 2: single minded ruthlessness that you apply to your career. That

785
00:41:24,847 --> 00:41:27,727
Speaker 2: is a given. So at first this was quite hard

786
00:41:27,727 --> 00:41:29,167
Speaker 2: for me when I lived in New York because I'm

787
00:41:29,207 --> 00:41:31,047
Speaker 2: Australian and you're not meant to show any kind of

788
00:41:31,127 --> 00:41:33,727
Speaker 2: effort or expend any energy on anything. Things are just

789
00:41:33,807 --> 00:41:34,447
Speaker 2: meant to forn.

790
00:41:34,287 --> 00:41:36,887
Speaker 1: Your app We barely want to commit to an actual date.

791
00:41:36,967 --> 00:41:38,487
Speaker 1: It's like, do you want to kind of meet up?

792
00:41:38,647 --> 00:41:40,527
Speaker 1: I'm going to be at the pub this time.

793
00:41:40,567 --> 00:41:44,247
Speaker 2: People's day maybe the word date in Australia until relatively recently.

794
00:41:44,887 --> 00:41:46,607
Speaker 2: And so I remember I used to roll my eyes

795
00:41:46,647 --> 00:41:48,807
Speaker 2: at this one friend of mine because she was a

796
00:41:48,847 --> 00:41:51,727
Speaker 2: real go getter, and she'd schedule drinks with one person,

797
00:41:51,807 --> 00:41:55,047
Speaker 2: dinner with another, post dinner drinks with someone else, and

798
00:41:55,127 --> 00:41:57,887
Speaker 2: she approached it like a job and I rolled my

799
00:41:57,927 --> 00:41:59,807
Speaker 2: eyes at it. And then she found the love of

800
00:41:59,847 --> 00:42:02,367
Speaker 2: her life on a drink s date, and I thought, well,

801
00:42:02,367 --> 00:42:05,447
Speaker 2: maybe she's onto something here. So here's what I did.

802
00:42:05,727 --> 00:42:08,567
Speaker 2: I am an older millennial, so dating apps were around,

803
00:42:08,647 --> 00:42:10,847
Speaker 2: but they were by no means as ubiquitous as they

804
00:42:10,887 --> 00:42:13,367
Speaker 2: are now. So instead, what I did was I asked

805
00:42:13,527 --> 00:42:17,807
Speaker 2: every single person I met to set me up with someone. Everyone.

806
00:42:18,607 --> 00:42:21,207
Speaker 2: This included, no joke, my boss. My boss set me

807
00:42:21,247 --> 00:42:23,047
Speaker 2: up with someone. Didn't go very well, but he did.

808
00:42:23,487 --> 00:42:25,927
Speaker 2: My dentist set me up with someone. Again, didn't go

809
00:42:26,047 --> 00:42:28,607
Speaker 2: very well, but he did. I met an entire table

810
00:42:28,647 --> 00:42:30,647
Speaker 2: of women at a work dinner, never met them before.

811
00:42:30,807 --> 00:42:33,167
Speaker 2: First question was, do any of you know anyone that

812
00:42:33,207 --> 00:42:36,287
Speaker 2: I can date? What do you know? What happened after

813
00:42:36,327 --> 00:42:38,727
Speaker 2: that dinner? One of the random women at that dinner,

814
00:42:38,727 --> 00:42:40,847
Speaker 2: who I'd never met before, told me that she thought

815
00:42:40,887 --> 00:42:43,647
Speaker 2: I'd get along with her brother. And he is the

816
00:42:43,687 --> 00:42:45,567
Speaker 2: person who got the visectomy I mentioned at the start

817
00:42:45,567 --> 00:42:50,047
Speaker 2: of this episode. Oh so my question to the romantic

818
00:42:51,167 --> 00:42:53,607
Speaker 2: that is actually no, it is actually my question to

819
00:42:53,647 --> 00:42:56,047
Speaker 2: the two of you is can the pursuit of love

820
00:42:56,087 --> 00:42:57,967
Speaker 2: be approached like a business deal? And if you are

821
00:42:58,087 --> 00:43:00,407
Speaker 2: uncomfortable right now, tell me why I am.

822
00:43:00,287 --> 00:43:04,247
Speaker 3: Not uncomfortable, because Amelia, I did exactly the same thing.

823
00:43:04,327 --> 00:43:05,967
Speaker 3: I got to the end of my tether and I

824
00:43:06,007 --> 00:43:08,527
Speaker 3: said to my friend. I knew he had handsome friends,

825
00:43:08,887 --> 00:43:12,167
Speaker 3: and I said to him, I see you hanging out

826
00:43:12,207 --> 00:43:14,327
Speaker 3: with all these and some of them must be single.

827
00:43:14,687 --> 00:43:16,967
Speaker 3: I don't know why you're not setting me up. And

828
00:43:17,007 --> 00:43:19,247
Speaker 3: then he ended up setting me up with someone and

829
00:43:19,287 --> 00:43:22,527
Speaker 3: I went to the wrong restaurant and I didn't like him,

830
00:43:22,807 --> 00:43:25,727
Speaker 3: and it all went quite pear shaped, and I was like, Ah,

831
00:43:25,767 --> 00:43:27,567
Speaker 3: this is why you're not setting me up, because I

832
00:43:27,607 --> 00:43:30,767
Speaker 3: have potentially really thrown a spanner in the works of

833
00:43:30,767 --> 00:43:32,247
Speaker 3: your friendship with this person.

834
00:43:32,767 --> 00:43:35,007
Speaker 2: But which is why it's better to ask your dentists.

835
00:43:35,047 --> 00:43:37,727
Speaker 3: By the way, yes, I think acquaintances there's way less

836
00:43:37,767 --> 00:43:39,567
Speaker 3: pressure on it, and then you don't really have to

837
00:43:39,607 --> 00:43:41,567
Speaker 3: debrief with them. It's just like, go on one date,

838
00:43:41,647 --> 00:43:45,207
Speaker 3: see how it happens. My cousin maybe she was early

839
00:43:45,247 --> 00:43:47,727
Speaker 3: thirties and she was single, had just come out of

840
00:43:47,727 --> 00:43:50,247
Speaker 3: a long term relationship, and I said, I work with

841
00:43:50,287 --> 00:43:52,887
Speaker 3: this guy at the golf club. He's quite nice, don't

842
00:43:52,927 --> 00:43:54,847
Speaker 3: know him that well. Go on a date. Three kids

843
00:43:55,047 --> 00:43:58,287
Speaker 3: engaged now, So I have done this before for my friends.

844
00:43:58,287 --> 00:43:59,927
Speaker 3: I think it's great wingman behavior.

845
00:44:00,127 --> 00:44:03,167
Speaker 1: I have never set anyone up successfully hasn't occurred to me.

846
00:44:03,247 --> 00:44:07,167
Speaker 3: Really, my worry with this thing about going on dating

847
00:44:07,167 --> 00:44:11,207
Speaker 3: apps and being very quick in our filtering is that

848
00:44:11,287 --> 00:44:14,647
Speaker 3: I think how filtering methods are flawed. And this is

849
00:44:14,727 --> 00:44:18,127
Speaker 3: why Dolly Alderton said this the other night at her show,

850
00:44:18,207 --> 00:44:20,647
Speaker 3: and it is exactly what I think about dating, which

851
00:44:20,687 --> 00:44:22,967
Speaker 3: is that the biggest lesson you can learn is not

852
00:44:23,087 --> 00:44:26,327
Speaker 3: to have a type. And the issue with going on

853
00:44:26,367 --> 00:44:30,087
Speaker 3: your apps is that I found there was an inverse

854
00:44:30,167 --> 00:44:33,727
Speaker 3: relationship between the men who had a great opening line

855
00:44:33,927 --> 00:44:37,127
Speaker 3: or great chat on apps and being a good date,

856
00:44:37,447 --> 00:44:40,607
Speaker 3: like they were completely different. I was going for the

857
00:44:40,687 --> 00:44:44,167
Speaker 3: same man because as an Australian woman who thought I

858
00:44:44,287 --> 00:44:47,087
Speaker 3: was meant to sit back and just wait or whatever,

859
00:44:47,527 --> 00:44:49,407
Speaker 3: I just kept dating the same guy who was the

860
00:44:49,487 --> 00:44:52,927
Speaker 3: type of guy to make a move, whereas the guy

861
00:44:52,967 --> 00:44:54,967
Speaker 3: I should have ended up with was a guy who

862
00:44:55,007 --> 00:44:57,407
Speaker 3: doesn't make a move. Dating apps, to me, I just

863
00:44:57,487 --> 00:45:02,167
Speaker 3: feel incredibly nihilistic about all of them. I was reading

864
00:45:02,167 --> 00:45:05,727
Speaker 3: that there's a class action suit against some of the apps,

865
00:45:05,807 --> 00:45:09,007
Speaker 3: which you know. The claim is that they are working

866
00:45:09,487 --> 00:45:12,967
Speaker 3: to keep you on the app and not necessarily serving

867
00:45:13,007 --> 00:45:15,967
Speaker 3: you your best matches, because then you'll leave them when

868
00:45:16,007 --> 00:45:18,967
Speaker 3: you are on it. It feels like gambling more than anything,

869
00:45:19,047 --> 00:45:22,567
Speaker 3: Like you are playing a slot machine and you're actually

870
00:45:22,607 --> 00:45:25,287
Speaker 3: not being served. This is a theory. You're not being

871
00:45:25,327 --> 00:45:27,687
Speaker 3: served your best matches because then they might lose you.

872
00:45:28,367 --> 00:45:31,727
Speaker 3: I'm all for your strategy, Amelia, which is go on

873
00:45:31,807 --> 00:45:35,447
Speaker 3: a date and go with unlikely people rather than thinking

874
00:45:35,447 --> 00:45:38,687
Speaker 3: you're filtering method, because my filtering method was broken.

875
00:45:39,007 --> 00:45:40,727
Speaker 1: I want to come back to the part where you said,

876
00:45:40,727 --> 00:45:45,087
Speaker 1: does this make you uncomfortable? And it does only because

877
00:45:45,447 --> 00:45:48,887
Speaker 1: I've internalized this belief that, like everything else women do,

878
00:45:49,487 --> 00:45:53,647
Speaker 1: finding a partner should be effortless. It should just happen.

879
00:45:54,247 --> 00:45:57,647
Speaker 1: It's like I woke up looking beautiful. I just bumped

880
00:45:57,647 --> 00:46:00,247
Speaker 1: into him, like we cut, you know, met eyes across

881
00:46:00,247 --> 00:46:02,927
Speaker 1: a crowded room. So I think at the beginning, there

882
00:46:02,967 --> 00:46:06,207
Speaker 1: was so much stigma around dating apps, dating websites, as

883
00:46:06,207 --> 00:46:08,887
Speaker 1: it used to be with RSVP, because it was like, oh,

884
00:46:08,887 --> 00:46:13,407
Speaker 1: you're trying so hard, yes, and it's so strange, Like

885
00:46:13,487 --> 00:46:17,447
Speaker 1: we accept that people have to try to have nice

886
00:46:17,487 --> 00:46:19,727
Speaker 1: hair and they have to try, well, maybe not with

887
00:46:19,767 --> 00:46:21,487
Speaker 1: beauty standards, but they have to try at work.

888
00:46:21,567 --> 00:46:21,767
Speaker 2: Right.

889
00:46:21,927 --> 00:46:23,767
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think if there's anywhere else that we

890
00:46:24,007 --> 00:46:28,127
Speaker 1: accept that people need to try. Everything else just has

891
00:46:28,207 --> 00:46:30,727
Speaker 1: to be effortless, which means that it's of course, it's

892
00:46:30,807 --> 00:46:33,927
Speaker 1: not effortless. Whether it is your hair or your skin,

893
00:46:34,287 --> 00:46:38,127
Speaker 1: or your relationship or meeting someone or your friendships. None

894
00:46:38,127 --> 00:46:41,327
Speaker 1: of it's effortless. And so not only do we have

895
00:46:41,407 --> 00:46:43,167
Speaker 1: to put in the work, but then we also have

896
00:46:43,247 --> 00:46:44,847
Speaker 1: to make it seem like we're not working.

897
00:46:45,287 --> 00:46:48,287
Speaker 2: Yeah. Jenny Young has thoughts on this too. One of

898
00:46:48,287 --> 00:46:50,727
Speaker 2: the things that she says, and remember how every generation

899
00:46:50,927 --> 00:46:53,807
Speaker 2: has these kinds of dating orthodox is so they used

900
00:46:54,087 --> 00:46:55,527
Speaker 2: he has to have his cab light on. In the

901
00:46:55,607 --> 00:46:57,447
Speaker 2: nine Sex in the City, Sex and the City, this

902
00:46:57,567 --> 00:47:00,367
Speaker 2: idea that men will only get into a relationship once

903
00:47:00,407 --> 00:47:03,327
Speaker 2: they're ready to have their cab light on. The nineties

904
00:47:03,367 --> 00:47:06,967
Speaker 2: were very heteronormative. It was always men's cab lights, I think. Yeah.

905
00:47:07,047 --> 00:47:09,087
Speaker 2: Then in the two thousands there was he's just not

906
00:47:09,127 --> 00:47:11,847
Speaker 2: that into you also from Sex and City actually, and

907
00:47:11,887 --> 00:47:14,607
Speaker 2: the idea of that was don't read between the lines

908
00:47:14,647 --> 00:47:17,927
Speaker 2: too much. If he's not returning your calls or he

909
00:47:17,967 --> 00:47:20,287
Speaker 2: doesn't seem very eager to meet up, that's because he

910
00:47:20,327 --> 00:47:21,247
Speaker 2: doesn't really like you.

911
00:47:21,447 --> 00:47:23,727
Speaker 1: I think that was very freeing. I think that was

912
00:47:23,767 --> 00:47:26,567
Speaker 1: actually a really helpful thing, even though it seems a

913
00:47:26,567 --> 00:47:29,967
Speaker 1: bit mean. I think that that gave us, you know,

914
00:47:29,967 --> 00:47:32,287
Speaker 1: a framework for not kidding ourselves.

915
00:47:32,327 --> 00:47:35,887
Speaker 3: But it was the New yorkerfication of dating, which was

916
00:47:36,007 --> 00:47:41,047
Speaker 3: that you need to divorce yourself from the emotions of dating.

917
00:47:41,087 --> 00:47:44,407
Speaker 2: But you do, Jesse, I think you do. And I

918
00:47:44,447 --> 00:47:49,367
Speaker 2: think this latest method the burned Haystack. She's coming from

919
00:47:49,367 --> 00:47:52,287
Speaker 2: a background of reading books through a living and figuring

920
00:47:52,367 --> 00:47:55,367
Speaker 2: out what words mean, and she's saying, if the words

921
00:47:55,407 --> 00:47:58,407
Speaker 2: someone is sending to you are unappealing or don't seem

922
00:47:58,447 --> 00:48:01,247
Speaker 2: particularly excited, it's actually a new version of just he's

923
00:48:01,247 --> 00:48:03,487
Speaker 2: just not that into you. Cut him loose. There's no

924
00:48:03,647 --> 00:48:06,607
Speaker 2: point continuing to read the subtext. I'm sure we've all

925
00:48:06,647 --> 00:48:08,807
Speaker 2: been there, reading a text from a love interest and

926
00:48:08,807 --> 00:48:11,927
Speaker 2: figuring out if talk to you later actually means I

927
00:48:11,967 --> 00:48:14,767
Speaker 2: want to have a phasectomy eventually with you. And so

928
00:48:15,047 --> 00:48:17,367
Speaker 2: I think that it is very freeing for women, in

929
00:48:17,407 --> 00:48:22,367
Speaker 2: particular to think my feelings. I'm always worried about being hurt,

930
00:48:22,367 --> 00:48:25,047
Speaker 2: but women also worry about hurting men. This is obviously

931
00:48:25,327 --> 00:48:28,647
Speaker 2: in street relationships, and this is saying don't worry about

932
00:48:28,727 --> 00:48:30,007
Speaker 2: hurting them, They're fine.

933
00:48:30,087 --> 00:48:33,207
Speaker 3: I was speaking to a friend recently about how we'd

934
00:48:33,247 --> 00:48:37,007
Speaker 3: had experiences in our early to mid twenties. Say a

935
00:48:37,047 --> 00:48:40,247
Speaker 3: bad relationship, a bad date, say you were ghosted, that

936
00:48:40,447 --> 00:48:43,007
Speaker 3: throws you off kilter, and then what happens is you

937
00:48:43,047 --> 00:48:46,247
Speaker 3: have a series of either dates or situationships or relationships

938
00:48:47,007 --> 00:48:50,687
Speaker 3: that looking back, you sort of sabotaged. Like you can

939
00:48:50,727 --> 00:48:52,927
Speaker 3: be thrown off kilter by one experience and then you

940
00:48:53,007 --> 00:48:56,207
Speaker 3: can't get your groove back. So it's like, to me,

941
00:48:56,447 --> 00:48:59,927
Speaker 3: dating felt like I was on a sporting field and

942
00:49:00,287 --> 00:49:02,447
Speaker 3: I sprained my ankle and I tried to come off,

943
00:49:02,487 --> 00:49:05,087
Speaker 3: and it was like get back on, and then I

944
00:49:05,127 --> 00:49:07,367
Speaker 3: broke my arm, and then it was like go back on,

945
00:49:07,807 --> 00:49:09,847
Speaker 3: and then I had all these ines and I was

946
00:49:09,887 --> 00:49:11,847
Speaker 3: like do you love me? And they were like no,

947
00:49:12,087 --> 00:49:14,727
Speaker 3: You're a total mess. Like I felt. For me, I

948
00:49:14,847 --> 00:49:16,527
Speaker 3: probably needed to.

949
00:49:16,567 --> 00:49:18,167
Speaker 2: Just sit You need it to be benched.

950
00:49:18,207 --> 00:49:20,447
Speaker 3: I needed to be benched for a prolonged period of

951
00:49:20,447 --> 00:49:23,847
Speaker 3: time and then just sit next to Luca at work

952
00:49:24,167 --> 00:49:27,247
Speaker 3: and go from there. But I was not match fit

953
00:49:27,687 --> 00:49:32,407
Speaker 3: and throwing myself out and out again with multiple injuries.

954
00:49:32,927 --> 00:49:35,127
Speaker 3: Was not good for anyone, I think.

955
00:49:35,167 --> 00:49:37,407
Speaker 1: Thank you to all of the out louders for listening

956
00:49:37,407 --> 00:49:39,927
Speaker 1: to today's show if you still are, and also to

957
00:49:39,967 --> 00:49:42,447
Speaker 1: our fabulous team for helping us put this show back

958
00:49:42,487 --> 00:49:45,807
Speaker 1: together after breaking it as I did at the start

959
00:49:45,847 --> 00:49:47,567
Speaker 1: of the show when I didn't know how to even

960
00:49:47,567 --> 00:49:51,887
Speaker 1: say hello. I'm ending it strongly as I started by

961
00:49:51,887 --> 00:49:54,367
Speaker 1: making a fool of myself. Let me tell you what

962
00:49:54,447 --> 00:49:56,447
Speaker 1: I should have told my twenty five year old self.

963
00:49:56,447 --> 00:49:58,687
Speaker 1: Pull up a chair. We will be back in your

964
00:49:58,687 --> 00:50:03,447
Speaker 1: ears tomorrow. Thank you Amelia for sitting next to me, and.

965
00:50:03,687 --> 00:50:07,567
Speaker 3: Bye, out Louders. If you ever wondered what Mayor Friedman

966
00:50:07,647 --> 00:50:09,847
Speaker 3: is like as a mother in law, and you might

967
00:50:09,887 --> 00:50:15,007
Speaker 3: want to listen to yesterday's subscriber episode. Actually, before we go, Amelia,

968
00:50:15,207 --> 00:50:17,807
Speaker 3: how would you feel if your mother in law came

969
00:50:17,847 --> 00:50:21,607
Speaker 3: to your house, went through your children's clothes, threw out

970
00:50:21,847 --> 00:50:25,207
Speaker 3: bags of their clothes and rearranged them just hypothetically. How

971
00:50:25,247 --> 00:50:26,247
Speaker 3: would that make you feel?

972
00:50:27,487 --> 00:50:30,127
Speaker 2: Are you asking for a friend, Jesse, Yeah yeah, yeah,

973
00:50:29,927 --> 00:50:32,407
Speaker 2: yeah yeah right? Is the friend's mother in law the

974
00:50:32,447 --> 00:50:34,647
Speaker 2: same mother in law who again told me last week

975
00:50:34,687 --> 00:50:35,807
Speaker 2: that my shirt was terrible.

976
00:50:36,007 --> 00:50:38,287
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, she's a nightmare to be that.

977
00:50:38,487 --> 00:50:42,807
Speaker 1: So we've got time for on the show today.

978
00:50:43,207 --> 00:50:45,607
Speaker 3: Here is a taste Mia.

979
00:50:45,727 --> 00:50:50,007
Speaker 8: You have gone into Jesse's home, yeah, and rearranged him

980
00:50:50,367 --> 00:50:53,967
Speaker 8: when I was there, when Jesse was buried with you

981
00:50:54,087 --> 00:50:59,847
Speaker 8: not home, and you rearranged her daughter's wardrobe and decided

982
00:50:59,927 --> 00:51:02,487
Speaker 8: which clothes should go and which should stay.

983
00:51:03,087 --> 00:51:05,047
Speaker 1: And that's what you did without being asked.

984
00:51:05,447 --> 00:51:06,167
Speaker 2: Am I correct?

985
00:51:06,327 --> 00:51:06,727
Speaker 1: Twice?

986
00:51:07,327 --> 00:51:11,407
Speaker 2: I would be really annoyed.

987
00:51:12,367 --> 00:51:14,607
Speaker 3: As always, will pop a link in the show notes

988
00:51:15,087 --> 00:51:17,607
Speaker 3: shout out to any Mum and me A subscribers listening.

989
00:51:17,847 --> 00:51:20,007
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,

990
00:51:20,247 --> 00:51:23,047
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way

991
00:51:23,087 --> 00:51:25,647
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description