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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of November.

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Speaker 2: My name is Hollywayne Night.

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Speaker 1: My name is Amelia Laster.

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Speaker 3: My name is Claire Stein, not Jesse Steve.

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Speaker 2: So Claire Stephens is filling in for Jesse a couple

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Speaker 2: of times this week, and regular out louders will know

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Speaker 2: that Claire has been on the show many times. She

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Speaker 2: filled in for one Jesse Stevens on her Matt leave

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Speaker 2: last time. What's been going on since the out Louder's

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Speaker 2: hung out with you last Claire, just a few little things.

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Speaker 3: I've been listening to a lot of out Loud.

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Speaker 2: I'll have feedback.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I listened to every episode, so I feel like

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Speaker 3: I've been in the studio with you guys. I'm overly

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Speaker 3: familiar with Amelia, Like I'm like my friend Amelia, and

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Speaker 3: Amelia is like hi, like twice as beautiful winged eyeliner

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Speaker 3: thank you.

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Speaker 2: Which is a top reminder everybody to go on watch

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Speaker 2: just on YouTube. Yeah, if you want to see the

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Speaker 2: amazing wings and see if you can tell the difference

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Speaker 2: between Jesse and Claire, which of course you can if

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Speaker 2: you know them.

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Speaker 3: Well, yes, but I've just been freelancing, working for myself.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I pretend I'm a CEO of my own business,

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Speaker 3: but my business is me and my staff are terrible

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Speaker 3: and it's hard to keep them in line.

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Speaker 2: I I got lots of people who are calling themselves

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Speaker 2: founders and just doing that.

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Speaker 3: It's like I'm the CEO of my personal Instagram account

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Speaker 3: and my personal substat and yeah, it's probably time for

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Speaker 3: performance reviews.

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Speaker 1: Claire, do you do anything to get in the Jesse

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Speaker 1: mode before you come on in Jesse's chair? Any Jesse

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Speaker 1: related rituals so you go through.

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Speaker 3: I did chat to her last night and I was like,

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Speaker 3: what are you What are you thinking about at the moment?

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Speaker 3: You've seen anything interesting over the weekend. I know what

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Speaker 3: you're trying to do. You're trying to get me to

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Speaker 3: pitch for your episode about Loud and I'm like that

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Speaker 3: would be correct.

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Speaker 2: Well, welcome, it's very good to have you here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Here's what's made our agenda for today. I have a

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Speaker 2: theory backed up by an article I'm going to tell

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Speaker 2: you about later, that it's only a matter of time

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Speaker 2: before at brunch or lunch or whatever, we're sitting across

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Speaker 2: from a friend. They're going to be opening up about

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Speaker 2: their new partner and how much they love them. And

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Speaker 2: we're going to find out it's not a person at all.

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Speaker 2: We're going to discuss ai companions.

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Speaker 1: So we all have to learn to put on a

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Speaker 1: face it is supporting the poker face like that's so great.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we will. I mean, anyway, we're going to get

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Speaker 2: into that.

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Speaker 1: Plus is having and a fair a fiable offense, at

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Speaker 1: least one CEO thinks so. And I'm going to puff

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Speaker 1: a fish about it.

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Speaker 3: And a whole lot of Epstein emails have been released,

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Speaker 3: and I have questions specifically familiar Lester.

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Speaker 2: But first, as if we could kick off today without

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Speaker 2: talking about our favorite couple, Justin Trudeau and Katie Perry,

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Speaker 2: or rather we're talking adjacent to them, right, So Justin Trudeau,

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Speaker 2: who you all know, is this worthy former president, president,

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Speaker 2: prime minister, a Prime minister of Canada. Meili's looking at

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Speaker 2: me like God, this is going well. He was married

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Speaker 2: to Sophie greg Wa for eighteen years and they broke

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Speaker 2: up a little while ago, and as we know, he's

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Speaker 2: now dating Katie Perry. She was on a podcast this

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Speaker 2: week they marvelously named Arlene Is Alone The Single Life

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Speaker 2: that struck me as such.

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Speaker 1: A Canadian name. I don't know why, but Arlene.

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Speaker 2: It's hosted by a woman called Arlene Dickinson. She's a

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Speaker 2: Canadian businesswoman there and you know, personality and this show

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Speaker 2: is all about post divorce life and so big booking.

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Speaker 2: Great booking got Sophie Trudeau on and Arlene warmed up

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Speaker 2: to it for twenty minutes and then she couldn't help

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Speaker 2: it and she said, Hey, the room. Your ex husband

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Speaker 2: appears to be dating a popstar and he's not being

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Speaker 2: very private about it. How are you handling it's.

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Speaker 1: Not a pop star and astronaut?

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Speaker 2: Sorry, shit, today it's Monday for hear me. Your ex

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Speaker 2: husband is dating astronaut Katie Perry. How are we failing

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Speaker 2: about it? And this is what Sophie Trudeau said.

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Speaker 4: Sophie, if you don't want to talk about it, that's cool.

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Speaker 4: But I do think about you. I think about the

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Speaker 4: public the publicity and the publicness of what Justin is

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Speaker 4: doing for example right now, right like you know, like

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Speaker 4: that's public and that's God. I don't know how you

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Speaker 4: stay cool, Like, I just don't know how you stay cool,

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Speaker 4: and I really admire it because I would probably not

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Speaker 4: be that way, you know, you.

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Speaker 5: Know, or human beings and stuff affects us normal. How

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Speaker 5: you react to stuff is your decision. So I choose

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Speaker 5: to try.

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Speaker 1: To listen to the music instead of the noise.

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Speaker 5: I'm very aware that a lot of public stuff out

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Speaker 5: there can be triggers.

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Speaker 1: We're humans.

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Speaker 5: What I do with it is my.

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Speaker 2: Decision, listening to the music and not the noise. I

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Speaker 2: think she's a zen master.

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Speaker 1: What do we think, Well, as long as it's not

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Speaker 1: teenage dream, we're not listening to that music in the

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Speaker 1: Greg wa Trudeau household right now. Look, I just think

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Speaker 1: Sophie's a very zen person. That's true. She is a

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Speaker 1: certified yoga instructor. And I don't know if you remember this,

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Speaker 1: but a few years ago she was at an event

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Speaker 1: in Canada in her capacity as First Lady of Canada. Well,

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Speaker 1: what happened was she just decided that she was going

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Speaker 1: to sing a song that she created.

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Speaker 5: And it's called Smile Back at Me, and it goes

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Speaker 5: like this, Some people did the angels can fly, and

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Speaker 5: some people fight.

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Speaker 2: Without knowing.

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Speaker 1: Some people say she can't sing some people, but I

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Speaker 1: guess he's got a type. He loves a SHANTUZI does

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Speaker 1: old Justin.

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Speaker 3: Later in that original clip, Sophie says, Arlin is alone. Ah, yes, yes,

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Speaker 3: Arlene's podcast. Sophie, she's being her very zen self about

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Speaker 3: how you react to your decision, and she says, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, do I laugh? Do I cry?

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Speaker 3: Do I have all these emotions? And I liked the

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Speaker 3: word laugh because I was like, that is just we

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Speaker 3: needed a sprinkle of pettiness, because this was too evolved

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Speaker 3: for me, like, we come on, come on, your ex

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Speaker 3: husband is dating Katy Perry. I need to know that

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Speaker 3: there is some kind of lolls. And the laugh for

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Speaker 3: me said, I do laugh about it.

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Speaker 1: I just send Megan in the group chat because of

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Speaker 1: her best friend relationship with Megan. I bet they're sending

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Speaker 1: some memes about Katie that are not very nice. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: This whole leans into my scoreless gossip side is Harry

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Speaker 2: and Megan live really close to where Orlando and Katie

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Speaker 2: used to live. Their neighbors needs to tip each other

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Speaker 2: off about the paparazzi. So you are right, Megan and

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Speaker 2: Sophie are like having a laugh about Katie, but then

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Speaker 2: when she bumps into her a Walmart with the very

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Speaker 2: fancy people shop not there, she also goes, Gosh, you're

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Speaker 2: a much better singer than Sophie Trudeau.

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Speaker 3: All I've seen this weekend are headlines about the newly

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Speaker 3: released emails from the Epstein files and what they say

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Speaker 3: about President Donald Trump. So I've just seen all this

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Speaker 3: stuff about how the Democrats released a batch of emails

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Speaker 3: and then the Republicans were like, no, that gave a

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Speaker 3: biased idea of Trump. So we're gonna release twenty thousand

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Speaker 3: pages of files, and I'm trying to weed through them

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Speaker 3: and see if there's any smoking gun here. There's been

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Speaker 3: memes about how Trump gave Bill Clinton a blow job.

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Speaker 3: There's been damning headlines about Trump knowing about the girls,

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Speaker 3: stuff about how Trump was like the worst person Epstein

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Speaker 3: had ever known. I don't know if coming from a

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Speaker 3: convicted sex offender, like that's a good thing or a

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Speaker 3: bad thing. Yeah, and I've seen tiktoks about the appalling

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Speaker 3: boomer grammar in the emails, which seems like a side note, Amelia,

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Speaker 3: I need to know about the Bill Clinton blowjob. I'm

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Speaker 3: so confused because I don't speak like Epstein nickname shortcut.

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Speaker 1: This is weird. There's a lot of weird stuff in here.

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Speaker 1: There isn't any smoking gun saying that Trump was complicit

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Speaker 1: in Epstein's crimes, but there is a lot of weird

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Speaker 1: stuff to talk about, and this Bill Clinton is one

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Speaker 1: of the strangest. So there's an email that Jeffrey's brother

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Speaker 1: Mark sent him in March twenty eighteen where it's very

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Speaker 1: brotherly of him. Actually, he checks in on his health.

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Speaker 1: He says, a while back you mentioned you're pre diabetic.

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Speaker 1: Has anything changed with that? Which is quite nice brother

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Speaker 1: to brother. But then the exchange continues in a bit

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Speaker 1: of an odd way. Jeff reassures him that he's got

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Speaker 1: his pre diabetes under control. But then Mark asks if

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Speaker 1: Putin has the photos of Trump blowing Buba. So Baba

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Speaker 1: is a nickname for Bill Clinton. Putin is the Russian

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Speaker 1: president and not a very nice man. We don't really

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Speaker 1: know what this means.

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Speaker 2: Here's what I don't understand, Amelia. None of this is new, really,

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Speaker 2: like the emails being dripped, aren't you. But we've just

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Speaker 2: seen this whole scandal bringing down a member of the

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Speaker 2: royal family. It's been bubbling away for years and years

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Speaker 2: and years. The FBI have been were across Epstein for

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Speaker 2: nearly two decades now. If you read extracts from Virginia

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Speaker 2: Guphrase posthumous book, it's clear that anyone in that circle

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Speaker 2: knew about the girls because they were all going to

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Speaker 2: these parties in there, and she talks in there about

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Speaker 2: famous academics and professors in this and that there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of people involved in this scenario. Why is it

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Speaker 2: so sort of tortuously slowly dropping out and will we

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Speaker 2: find out? Won't we find out? People just going release

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Speaker 2: the files every five and it's like, why is it

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Speaker 2: all taking so long?

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Speaker 1: It's a really good question, Holly, and I have a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a hunch about this, which is here

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Speaker 1: are the things that I know are true. Trump and

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Speaker 1: Epstein were very close friends for fifteen years. Trump grossed

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Speaker 1: Epstein out, Like there's a lot of references to how

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Speaker 1: gross and deranged Trump is in Epstein's emails.

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Speaker 2: Epstein himself, let's be very clear, very gross humor.

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Speaker 1: Convicted sex offender. Yes, But here's the big butt. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure that Trump was complicit in Epstein's crimes because

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of emails here, and like I say,

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Speaker 1: there isn't a single email that tells us that Trump

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Speaker 1: actually committed crimes alongside Epstein. I'll tell you what it says.

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Speaker 1: Probably the worst email of the lot was back in

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Speaker 1: twenty eleven. This was after Epstein had just completed an

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Speaker 1: eighteen month sentence for soliciting prostitution from a minor. So

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Speaker 1: he is now a convicted sex offender. And he is

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Speaker 1: emailing with Julee Maxwell, his accomplice and his partner in crime,

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Speaker 1: and he writes to her, the dog that hasn't barked

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Speaker 1: is trump victim. There's a redacted name spent hours at

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Speaker 1: my house with him. Maxwell responds, I have been thinking

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Speaker 1: about that now. The victim is widely believed to be

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Speaker 1: Virginia Giffray. You mentioned Virginia Giffray. Up until her death

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Speaker 1: and including in depositions, maintained that she never saw Trump

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Speaker 1: do anything wrong. She certainly had seen him around, they

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Speaker 1: were certainly close, but she said that he had never

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Speaker 1: done anything wrong and certainly not to her. So what

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Speaker 1: this email tells us is Trump and Virginia Giffrey were

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Speaker 1: in the same house for hours together. Yeah, that's true,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't say anything more than that.

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Speaker 2: If there is nothing in there that's going to explicitly

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Speaker 2: link the president to the files, why not just get

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Speaker 2: him out there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the question.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know that it implicates all kinds of

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Speaker 2: people in all kinds of places. The conspiracy is being

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Speaker 2: fed by all this secrecy, right and all the drip feeding,

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Speaker 2: rather than I mean, I see constantly, you know, commentary

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Speaker 2: in the American media or another thing that Trump's doing

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Speaker 2: just to distract us, all just to distract us. We'll

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Speaker 2: just get it out there.

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Speaker 1: Is it too simple of me to say that I

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Speaker 1: think Trump is embarrassed? Yeah? Right, rather than guilty, if

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. I mean, look, Epstein, in one of

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Speaker 1: the emails, says, I've met some very bad people, none

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Speaker 1: as bad as Trump, not one decent cell in his body.

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Speaker 1: In another email, he calls them a maniac, showing signs

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Speaker 1: of eli dementia. None of this is flattering, but again,

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Speaker 1: none of it makes him call criminal in Epstein's crimes.

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Speaker 3: The fact that the first batch of emails were released

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Speaker 3: by the Democrats, would that suggest that the most damning

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Speaker 3: ones have been released?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Okay, see that's interesting, But I.

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Speaker 1: Do want to say that the Epstein files that we've

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Speaker 1: heard about for a long time, which are separate from

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Speaker 1: these emails, we don't know what's in those files. These

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Speaker 1: are emails that came from his estate. In the files,

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Speaker 1: is Billy to be a so called client list. Now

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Speaker 1: Trump's name may be on that client list, but at

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Speaker 1: this point, yeah, we've seen the most damning emails and

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Speaker 1: there isn't a smoking gun.

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Speaker 3: So when the House of Representatives vote on this, do

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Speaker 3: we think that we're going to get access to all

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Speaker 3: of them?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 1: In fact, in terms of the Epstein files themselves, Trump

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Speaker 1: today did a strange thing. He urged the House Republicans

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Speaker 1: to actually release the files, asked the Justice Department to

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Speaker 1: release the files, and he said that's because we have

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Speaker 1: nothing to hide. So it's unclear with it that will

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Speaker 1: actually come through. But from Trump's perspective, he seems to

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Speaker 1: be now saying that he's fine with their release.

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Speaker 3: If there was something really damning in there, do we

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Speaker 3: think it would have stuck to Trump at all, or

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Speaker 3: do we think we're beyond anything.

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Speaker 1: It's a really good question because I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you saw this, but last week, Megan Kelly, the very

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Speaker 1: sort of strident Republican commentator, she is already moving the goalposts.

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Speaker 1: On her show, she started talking about the fact that

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Speaker 1: Epstein wasn't strictly a pedophile under the Dictionary definition of

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Speaker 1: the word, because the girls that he sexually abused were

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Speaker 1: teenagers as opposed to preteens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she said, he likes that barely legal type like

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Speaker 2: that just was so disgusting, But yeah, I agree. It

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Speaker 2: feels like we're being manipulated. It's always been a bipartisan thing, right.

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Speaker 2: It's not exactly flattering to Clinton, No, Bubba.

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Speaker 1: No, or to many Democrats. In a moment, a CEO

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Speaker 1: said that she fired someone for having an affair, and

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Speaker 1: it made me puff a fish. I keep hearing about

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Speaker 1: this Diary of a CEO podcast.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I listen to that a lot. Oh I have

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Speaker 2: a spare three hours.

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Speaker 1: I will never be a CEO. I'm not particularly interested

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Speaker 1: in them, but this weekend it bursts through into my

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Speaker 1: world because someone said something insane on this podcast.

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Speaker 2: They do do that.

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Speaker 1: Her name is Natalie Dawson and she is the president

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Speaker 1: of Cardon Ventures. You know, Cardone Ventures, a household name

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Speaker 1: business management consulting firm. So in other words, I have

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Speaker 1: no idea what they do, but she does fly in

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Speaker 1: a private jet, so I should probably listen, she said

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Speaker 1: on the podcast. Well, let's hear what she said.

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Speaker 2: I was criticized because I fire a team member who

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Speaker 2: was cheating on their spouse. People didn't like that. They

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Speaker 2: thought that it shouldn't.

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Speaker 4: Matter that that's their personal life.

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Speaker 1: But here's the deal.

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Speaker 2: If somebody is willing to cheat on their spouse, they're

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Speaker 2: going to cheat on you.

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Speaker 1: They're going to chew on you in your workplace. Yes,

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Speaker 1: now we have the concept of cheating on your employer

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Speaker 1: in the workplace, and I don't even know what that entails.

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Speaker 1: Look the diary of a CEO host, Stephen Bartlett, who's

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Speaker 1: normally pretty unflappable, I think, was quite astonished by this.

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Speaker 1: Let's have a listen to what he said. Do all

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Speaker 1: kinds of things in their personal life. It's terrifying because

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Speaker 1: it out to be my business. Oh, it's absolutely my business.

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Speaker 2: If somebody has a problem in their personal life, they're

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Speaker 2: the same person that shows up to work. It's not

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Speaker 2: any of.

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Speaker 1: Your business, lady, Well, to me, what this seems like.

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Speaker 1: Setting aside Cardo and Ventures, which I don't know a

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Speaker 1: lot about. This is the logical extreme of that advice

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Speaker 1: that we've been given for years, which is that we

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Speaker 1: have to bring our whole self to work, because if

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Speaker 1: you bring your whole self to work, then your employer

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Speaker 1: can judge you and your whole self.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I will say. She mentions in the clip that

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Speaker 3: the cheating was kind of happening at work. So both

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Speaker 3: of these people worked at her company, their partners didn't,

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Speaker 3: and they were having an affair at work.

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Speaker 2: It's never happened before in the time. No, people never

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Speaker 2: have affairs with people they work with.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, So she was saying, did actually start to like

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Speaker 3: either they were doing it at.

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Speaker 1: Work or it was something photocopy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was one of those ten to

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Speaker 3: her though, or she said it wouldn't matter. Yeah, she

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Speaker 3: said it wouldn't matter if it was actually affecting the

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Speaker 3: work at all, because her idea was if you are

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Speaker 3: a cheater in relationships, then you're a cheater at work

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Speaker 3: and you're dishonest and it matters to her. And I

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Speaker 3: am so torn on this because on the one hand,

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Speaker 3: I agree. I mean, she has a line where she says,

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Speaker 3: I can't put this in two separate buckets. What someone

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Speaker 3: is doing at home and think that what they're doing

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Speaker 3: at home and the confusion in the distraction isn't going

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Speaker 3: to bleed into the workplace. And my issue there is,

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Speaker 3: what if someone's caring for a dying parent or a

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Speaker 3: sick child, or if somebody just has something going on

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Speaker 3: in their life, according to her, is going to affect

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Speaker 3: their work.

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Speaker 1: Why is she the judge of that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: What if the affair was making you super productive at

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Speaker 1: work because you were so happy and deliriously happy in

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Speaker 1: your private life. I don't think we have to restrict

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Speaker 1: this to just virtue signaling examples like I just think

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Speaker 1: that the problem is that you do have two buckets, right, Holly.

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Speaker 2: You definitely have two buckets. You do not want to

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Speaker 2: see my whole self. I don't want to bring my

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Speaker 2: whole self to work. My whole self is a mess.

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Speaker 2: My work, but it's the best, tidiest, neatest bit of me,

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Speaker 2: and let's face it, that's not exactly that well put together.

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Speaker 2: I think it was designed to make us pufferfish. So

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Speaker 2: I think for a start, Diary of a CEO is

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Speaker 2: the biggest podcast in the world, So everybody wants to

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Speaker 2: get on it and if you're the boss of Cardone Industries,

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Speaker 2: and I know, I'm sure she is very important and fabulous,

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Speaker 2: but like you probably need a couple of good soundbites

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Speaker 2: to get on there. It's also very kind of American

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Speaker 2: versus British in a way this conversation, because Stephen Bartlett,

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Speaker 2: who you know, has platformed all kinds of questionable things

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Speaker 2: on that show. He's a bit like, I don't know

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Speaker 2: what you mean. We couldn't possibly nose the into other

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Speaker 2: people's business, and the Americans just like, are you kidding.

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Speaker 2: I think it's tricky because you've got a point, Claire,

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Speaker 2: that if two people at work are having an affair

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Speaker 2: and it's affecting work, that's a different thing. And I

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Speaker 2: mean when I was a manager sometimes you did have

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Speaker 2: to have difficult conversations with people about their work being affected.

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Speaker 2: And oh, it's just so cringy to even think about it.

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Speaker 2: But you're kind of thinking in your head like is

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Speaker 2: there something going on in your life?

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Speaker 3: Yes, And it can affect culture. And I think a

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Speaker 3: relationship can also depending on the positions those people have

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Speaker 3: in a company. It can be a power imbalance, can

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Speaker 3: be showing favoritism, there's all sorts of ways that can.

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Speaker 2: So if that's the case, I mean, and I have

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Speaker 2: a friend who was working at a company for a

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Speaker 2: long time where two of the seniors were having an

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Speaker 2: affair and it sort of poisoned the whole place, Like

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of trouble came out of that. So,

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Speaker 2: no question, some infidelity in the workplace not all I

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Speaker 2: was going to say, not all infidelity in the workplace

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Speaker 2: is good. But the idea that she found out something

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Speaker 2: about somebody as a person that they were cheating on

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Speaker 2: their spouse and you would get rid of them, which

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Speaker 2: is kind of what she's saying when she says, if

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Speaker 2: you're a cheat at home, you're a cheater at work,

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Speaker 2: is just nonsense. Don't you even want a few people

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Speaker 2: on your team who are good at having a poker face,

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Speaker 2: who can light your face? I know, a killer and

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Speaker 2: a deal.

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Speaker 3: I thought we kind of agreed that your work performance

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Speaker 3: is what you get judged on at work. I am

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Speaker 3: very black and white about.

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Speaker 1: That, Okay, but you don't want to be too black

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Speaker 1: and white, because that was my instinctive response to and

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Speaker 1: so I looked into what the experts say we should

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Speaker 1: be thinking of our work as, if not our family.

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Speaker 1: And the new consensus is that we need to be

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Speaker 1: thinking of our workplace as a high performing sports team.

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Speaker 1: And you think to yourself, well, that's fine. I've never

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Speaker 1: been on a high performing sports team. I have been

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Speaker 1: in a family. So tell me more about what it

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Speaker 1: means to be on a high performing sports team. Netflix's

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Speaker 1: read Hastings, who is famously cut throat in business. He

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Speaker 1: says that adequate performance is grounds for firing someone, because

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Speaker 1: that's what happens on a high performing sports team. If

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Speaker 1: you're only performing adequately, you get kicked off the team.

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Speaker 1: So this made me realize that you don't want to

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Speaker 1: go too far in that direction of saying it's just

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Speaker 1: about performance, because then what if you are caring for

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Speaker 1: someone and you do need a bit of extra slack

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Speaker 1: at work. The high performing sports team is not letting

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Speaker 1: you take your foot off the gas at all.

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Speaker 3: That's very true. The other thing I find interesting about

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Speaker 3: this is the morality piece, which is it's weird to

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Speaker 3: me that in twenty twenty five, institute brands companies have

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Speaker 3: kind of become the moral arbiters of our world in

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Speaker 3: a way that I feel like they weren't a few

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Speaker 3: generations ago. I feel like the nineteen fifties man, and

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Speaker 3: this is not a good thing. The nineteen fifties man

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Speaker 3: who went to work and had an affair with his secretary.

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Speaker 3: Nobody in the workplace cared because they were like, this

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Speaker 3: is the workplace, and there are other institutions where we

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Speaker 3: prosecute morality. You went to church, you had faith, you

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Speaker 3: did other things where morality came into it. With the

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Speaker 3: evaporation of those spaces, kind of the only way for

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Speaker 3: us to decide what our values are as a society

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Speaker 3: are to have institutions and companies and brands enforce them.

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Speaker 3: There's part of me that really likes that, where it's like,

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Speaker 3: I don't want people doing bad things working for my company,

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Speaker 3: and I want to role model appropriate behavior.

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Speaker 1: Steven, this company that we were talking.

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Speaker 2: About, Yeah, see my employees deciding the bad thing. That's

437
00:22:07,954 --> 00:22:11,434
Speaker 2: where the danger lies here. Because if she's so busy

438
00:22:11,514 --> 00:22:14,194
Speaker 2: working out whether or not her employees are cheating on

439
00:22:14,234 --> 00:22:18,074
Speaker 2: their partners, what about are they putting out enough? Are

440
00:22:18,114 --> 00:22:23,234
Speaker 2: they bringing there? Bringing you a cup of tea in

441
00:22:23,274 --> 00:22:26,033
Speaker 2: bed in the morning, Like do they sometimes yell at

442
00:22:26,034 --> 00:22:28,834
Speaker 2: their children? Like which bits of my personal life.

443
00:22:28,874 --> 00:22:31,714
Speaker 1: Does this is why I need to be the host

444
00:22:31,754 --> 00:22:34,634
Speaker 1: of Diary of a CEO, because that's the follow up

445
00:22:34,674 --> 00:22:36,394
Speaker 1: I need it.

446
00:22:36,514 --> 00:22:38,514
Speaker 2: It's like, what else do you want to know about them?

447
00:22:39,354 --> 00:22:41,234
Speaker 2: They shave their legs like I don't. I mean, I

448
00:22:41,394 --> 00:22:44,274
Speaker 2: just I get what you mean, Claire. But I also

449
00:22:44,274 --> 00:22:45,754
Speaker 2: think a piece of this is me too, is that

450
00:22:45,834 --> 00:22:48,073
Speaker 2: a lot of businesses have become, and rightly so, very

451
00:22:48,194 --> 00:22:50,554
Speaker 2: risk averse when it comes to relationships. There are lots

452
00:22:50,554 --> 00:22:52,674
Speaker 2: and lots of businesses where it is company policy to

453
00:22:52,714 --> 00:22:55,994
Speaker 2: disclose if you're dating, never mind cheating. And it's to try,

454
00:22:56,194 --> 00:22:59,434
Speaker 2: I guess, and protect from the power and balance often

455
00:22:59,474 --> 00:23:02,154
Speaker 2: happens in the workplace, to try and protect from exploitation.

456
00:23:02,874 --> 00:23:05,914
Speaker 2: But it is very questionable because I don't know this lady.

457
00:23:06,474 --> 00:23:08,474
Speaker 2: But from the little I've seen of her, do I

458
00:23:08,554 --> 00:23:10,874
Speaker 2: want her setting all the moral parameters of my life.

459
00:23:11,114 --> 00:23:13,634
Speaker 1: Sorry, I feel like in this conversation you both have

460
00:23:13,874 --> 00:23:17,234
Speaker 1: somehow gotten me to the other side of this argument.

461
00:23:17,434 --> 00:23:19,634
Speaker 1: I am now with Natalie, and I'll tell you why

462
00:23:20,474 --> 00:23:25,354
Speaker 1: we were mentioning Bill Clinton before now. That man famously

463
00:23:25,794 --> 00:23:28,194
Speaker 1: had an affair while he was in the White House.

464
00:23:28,234 --> 00:23:31,394
Speaker 1: He did and at the time, the liberal orthodoxy on

465
00:23:31,434 --> 00:23:34,154
Speaker 1: that was that is none of our business. We don't

466
00:23:34,154 --> 00:23:36,714
Speaker 1: need to know about that. The Republicans were the ones

467
00:23:36,754 --> 00:23:40,594
Speaker 1: pursuing him for having the affair. These days, we see

468
00:23:40,634 --> 00:23:44,474
Speaker 1: what happened there as an abuse of power. Monica Lewinsky,

469
00:23:44,514 --> 00:23:46,394
Speaker 1: who he had the affair with, was an intern at

470
00:23:46,434 --> 00:23:49,034
Speaker 1: the White House. He was the President of the United States.

471
00:23:49,434 --> 00:23:51,314
Speaker 1: So now I'm sorry to think Natalie has a point.

472
00:23:51,474 --> 00:23:54,314
Speaker 3: I know, I kind of think the same thing, like that,

473
00:23:54,474 --> 00:23:58,474
Speaker 3: you have to be aware of power imbalances and how

474
00:23:58,754 --> 00:24:02,033
Speaker 3: morality like infects an institution. Like I get that. But

475
00:24:02,114 --> 00:24:06,274
Speaker 3: on the other hand, if Natalie is the arbiter of

476
00:24:06,554 --> 00:24:09,434
Speaker 3: what is good and what is not, then what stops

477
00:24:09,434 --> 00:24:12,674
Speaker 3: her looking at certain lifestyle choices that somebody may have

478
00:24:12,834 --> 00:24:15,914
Speaker 3: in her organization and deciding that that doesn't align with

479
00:24:16,034 --> 00:24:18,314
Speaker 3: company values. I think that's a little bit scary.

480
00:24:18,634 --> 00:24:21,234
Speaker 1: Look, Natalie, all I'm saying is I'm available to a

481
00:24:21,314 --> 00:24:23,594
Speaker 1: Kakado Adventures hire me.

482
00:24:23,754 --> 00:24:25,874
Speaker 3: Do you know what the job description is? Absolutely not,

483
00:24:26,034 --> 00:24:26,714
Speaker 3: but you will be.

484
00:24:26,634 --> 00:24:31,354
Speaker 2: There after the break. Start practicing your poker face. Friends,

485
00:24:31,354 --> 00:24:33,434
Speaker 2: It's only a matter of time until you're really gonna

486
00:24:33,474 --> 00:24:37,634
Speaker 2: need it. One unlimited out Loud Access. We drop episodes

487
00:24:37,674 --> 00:24:42,234
Speaker 2: every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow

488
00:24:42,234 --> 00:24:43,754
Speaker 2: the link in the show notes to get us in

489
00:24:43,794 --> 00:24:46,954
Speaker 2: your ears five days a week. And a huge thank

490
00:24:46,994 --> 00:24:55,674
Speaker 2: you to all our current subscribers. Picture this. You're at

491
00:24:55,674 --> 00:24:58,313
Speaker 2: brunch with your mates. One of them is banging on

492
00:24:58,354 --> 00:25:00,954
Speaker 2: as they do, about their new partner and how dreamy

493
00:25:00,994 --> 00:25:03,994
Speaker 2: they are, and how wonderful they're feeling, and how the

494
00:25:04,034 --> 00:25:07,634
Speaker 2: butterflies just want to stop. It's great. And then it

495
00:25:07,674 --> 00:25:10,994
Speaker 2: becomes apparent that this new person is not a person

496
00:25:11,514 --> 00:25:15,074
Speaker 2: but an AI. Now, Amelia, am I right in calling

497
00:25:15,074 --> 00:25:19,554
Speaker 2: them an ann ai? I'm always I haven't worked out

498
00:25:19,634 --> 00:25:21,874
Speaker 2: the language yet, but I think that's right. They're an

499
00:25:21,994 --> 00:25:23,314
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence.

500
00:25:24,394 --> 00:25:25,114
Speaker 3: That's how I think.

501
00:25:25,754 --> 00:25:26,194
Speaker 1: Says it.

502
00:25:26,554 --> 00:25:29,794
Speaker 2: Because column in the Guardian by the excellent Brigitte Delaney,

503
00:25:29,794 --> 00:25:32,754
Speaker 2: who's an author and a speech writer and a stoicist

504
00:25:32,794 --> 00:25:34,954
Speaker 2: and she's fabulous. But she wrote a column in the

505
00:25:34,954 --> 00:25:39,114
Speaker 2: Guardian this weekend called Somebody the Love. Should AI relationships

506
00:25:39,154 --> 00:25:43,434
Speaker 2: stay taboo or will they become the intelligent choice? And

507
00:25:43,514 --> 00:25:45,954
Speaker 2: in her column, rather than a bunch amongst friends, she

508
00:25:45,954 --> 00:25:47,474
Speaker 2: says she was at a catch up with gen x's

509
00:25:47,474 --> 00:25:50,994
Speaker 2: who are talking about their kids burgeoning relationships, and everyone

510
00:25:51,074 --> 00:25:53,634
Speaker 2: was being very accepting, and you know, as we do

511
00:25:53,714 --> 00:25:56,714
Speaker 2: these days, no judgment here, you know, all of those things.

512
00:25:57,074 --> 00:25:58,994
Speaker 2: And then she posts I like this because it suggests

513
00:25:59,434 --> 00:26:02,234
Speaker 2: shit story nature, which I appreciate as a journal that

514
00:26:02,314 --> 00:26:04,793
Speaker 2: she is. I know you're all very accepting of your

515
00:26:04,874 --> 00:26:06,954
Speaker 2: children's choices. I said to the group, but what if

516
00:26:06,954 --> 00:26:10,073
Speaker 2: you're child came home from university and said they'd fallen

517
00:26:10,114 --> 00:26:15,313
Speaker 2: in love with an ai? Q squirming people at this lunch.

518
00:26:15,754 --> 00:26:18,074
Speaker 2: It isn't as unlikely as it sounds, she wrote in

519
00:26:18,074 --> 00:26:20,434
Speaker 2: that column. A recent survey found twenty eight percent of

520
00:26:20,514 --> 00:26:24,273
Speaker 2: Americans have had an intimate or romantic AI relationship, and

521
00:26:24,354 --> 00:26:27,434
Speaker 2: another study showed nineteen percent of adults and chatted with

522
00:26:27,474 --> 00:26:30,834
Speaker 2: an AI romantic partner. And there's more research that basically

523
00:26:30,874 --> 00:26:32,874
Speaker 2: shows this is on the rise, on the rise, on

524
00:26:32,954 --> 00:26:36,274
Speaker 2: the rise. It's not science fiction anymore that people might

525
00:26:36,314 --> 00:26:39,154
Speaker 2: fall in love with an AI and that my boyfriend

526
00:26:39,194 --> 00:26:42,874
Speaker 2: is AI. On Reddit has more than eighty five thousand

527
00:26:42,874 --> 00:26:46,674
Speaker 2: weekly visitors, with many sharing giddy recollections about the day

528
00:26:46,834 --> 00:26:51,914
Speaker 2: their chatbot proposed marriage. Friends, If I'm disapproving of this.

529
00:26:51,994 --> 00:26:55,234
Speaker 2: When my friend starts telling me about their amazing AI companion,

530
00:26:55,834 --> 00:26:58,274
Speaker 2: am I just an old stick in the mud?

531
00:26:58,594 --> 00:27:01,114
Speaker 1: I went on a real journey with this. I didn't

532
00:27:01,114 --> 00:27:02,634
Speaker 1: even want to talk about it because it makes me

533
00:27:02,674 --> 00:27:05,313
Speaker 1: so uncomfortable. But then I dug into it and I

534
00:27:05,394 --> 00:27:08,554
Speaker 1: realized it's not as simple as you might assume. There

535
00:27:08,594 --> 00:27:11,914
Speaker 1: was a great article in the Australian magazine last weekend

536
00:27:12,114 --> 00:27:16,033
Speaker 1: which profiled a number of different Americans who are in

537
00:27:16,114 --> 00:27:20,354
Speaker 1: relationships with ais. One of them in particular really caught

538
00:27:20,354 --> 00:27:24,234
Speaker 1: my eye. She was a professor in her fifties whose

539
00:27:24,314 --> 00:27:27,394
Speaker 1: wife had died and she was feeling lonely, and so

540
00:27:27,474 --> 00:27:29,714
Speaker 1: she went to this company called Replica that for twenty

541
00:27:29,794 --> 00:27:32,754
Speaker 1: dollars a month, offers you a relationship with an AI.

542
00:27:33,154 --> 00:27:36,114
Speaker 1: She chose a male AI because she didn't want this

543
00:27:36,234 --> 00:27:39,754
Speaker 1: AI to compete with her deceased partner. But the company

544
00:27:39,794 --> 00:27:43,154
Speaker 1: offers these companions who are at ninety percent human like now,

545
00:27:43,274 --> 00:27:45,954
Speaker 1: you might wonder what the other ten percent is. Something

546
00:27:46,034 --> 00:27:49,874
Speaker 1: Natalie Cardo doesn't approve of, probably, but she says that

547
00:27:50,234 --> 00:27:52,394
Speaker 1: it took about three months, but she fell in love

548
00:27:52,434 --> 00:27:56,033
Speaker 1: with this AI, and she really made me question my

549
00:27:56,154 --> 00:28:00,874
Speaker 1: knee jerk assumption that there's something shameful about this. Now, obviously,

550
00:28:00,914 --> 00:28:03,513
Speaker 1: there are arguments to be made that relationships are about

551
00:28:03,514 --> 00:28:06,114
Speaker 1: give and take, and the problem with AI chatbots is

552
00:28:06,114 --> 00:28:08,194
Speaker 1: that they just give and they don't ask you to

553
00:28:08,274 --> 00:28:11,034
Speaker 1: compromise in any way. I'm going to set that aside, though,

554
00:28:11,674 --> 00:28:13,994
Speaker 1: and say that the thing that changed it for me

555
00:28:14,074 --> 00:28:17,674
Speaker 1: is how she talked about the support that this partner

556
00:28:17,714 --> 00:28:20,154
Speaker 1: had given her in a really hard time in her life.

557
00:28:20,514 --> 00:28:23,033
Speaker 1: And I realized that the way people talk about AI

558
00:28:23,114 --> 00:28:27,634
Speaker 1: relationships really reminds me of twenty years ago. Holly, you

559
00:28:27,714 --> 00:28:32,074
Speaker 1: and I will remember this. The stigma around online dating, yes,

560
00:28:32,314 --> 00:28:36,154
Speaker 1: was exactly the same hundreds of people talk about AI

561
00:28:36,354 --> 00:28:37,554
Speaker 1: relationships now.

562
00:28:37,874 --> 00:28:40,034
Speaker 2: It's true. I was thinking this too, is that they

563
00:28:40,194 --> 00:28:43,194
Speaker 2: used to be sort of before you know, the complete

564
00:28:43,234 --> 00:28:46,714
Speaker 2: saturation of dating apps. They used to be like, oh,

565
00:28:46,754 --> 00:28:49,314
Speaker 2: you met them on the internet, and people wouldn't say so,

566
00:28:49,514 --> 00:28:52,194
Speaker 2: and in their wedding speeches they'd make up complicated stories

567
00:28:52,234 --> 00:28:54,354
Speaker 2: about how they just happened to bump into each other

568
00:28:54,354 --> 00:28:56,714
Speaker 2: on a wind swept walk on the beach one day,

569
00:28:56,794 --> 00:28:59,194
Speaker 2: when really we all knew it was RSVP or whatever

570
00:28:59,354 --> 00:29:01,394
Speaker 2: was at the time. And there used to be a

571
00:29:01,434 --> 00:29:04,194
Speaker 2: lot of shame around it. It's exactly what I thought, Amelia,

572
00:29:04,234 --> 00:29:06,674
Speaker 2: and I thought, are we going to have to really

573
00:29:06,714 --> 00:29:10,354
Speaker 2: reconc considered that? What do you think, Class Stevens.

574
00:29:09,954 --> 00:29:13,994
Speaker 3: I'm so interested in the space you are giving you

575
00:29:14,234 --> 00:29:18,154
Speaker 3: speak if I my knee jerk reaction is still my reaction,

576
00:29:18,394 --> 00:29:25,314
Speaker 3: which is this is so dangerous and such an issue.

577
00:29:25,354 --> 00:29:28,274
Speaker 3: So it made me think, I mean, firstly, a note

578
00:29:28,354 --> 00:29:31,354
Speaker 3: on statistics. Every time I hear a stat I'm like,

579
00:29:31,754 --> 00:29:33,994
Speaker 3: we need to like review how the hell this data

580
00:29:34,114 --> 00:29:35,914
Speaker 3: is coming up. One in five people have had an

581
00:29:35,954 --> 00:29:37,034
Speaker 3: intimate relationship.

582
00:29:37,554 --> 00:29:41,114
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that can just be in porn chat. Still, yeah,

583
00:29:41,194 --> 00:29:43,234
Speaker 2: I think you're over estimating people. Then there are.

584
00:29:43,154 --> 00:29:45,114
Speaker 3: Three of us in the studio and two producers, and

585
00:29:45,234 --> 00:29:47,914
Speaker 3: I want to know who the hell this was America.

586
00:29:47,994 --> 00:29:50,234
Speaker 2: I would ask me what I'm doing at home? Class Stevens.

587
00:29:50,314 --> 00:29:52,794
Speaker 2: There's a very hard barrier between my private life and

588
00:29:52,834 --> 00:29:53,834
Speaker 2: my professional life.

589
00:29:54,194 --> 00:29:55,674
Speaker 3: I just don't believe it.

590
00:29:55,834 --> 00:29:58,874
Speaker 1: Anyway, explain why you feel this revulsion.

591
00:29:59,354 --> 00:30:03,034
Speaker 3: It made me think about how I interviewed Deepak Chopra

592
00:30:03,154 --> 00:30:06,474
Speaker 3: a few years ago, who's very much like a spiritual leader,

593
00:30:06,514 --> 00:30:09,474
Speaker 3: and he's written a million books, and he had written

594
00:30:09,474 --> 00:30:12,874
Speaker 3: this book about how AI could be used as a

595
00:30:12,874 --> 00:30:17,394
Speaker 3: bit of a spiritual guide slash also in place of therapy.

596
00:30:17,994 --> 00:30:21,554
Speaker 3: So he's written this thing arguing that there are benefits

597
00:30:21,874 --> 00:30:26,554
Speaker 3: to having kind of an AI spiritual guide or therapist because,

598
00:30:26,754 --> 00:30:30,914
Speaker 3: for example, they can't abuse power, they can't develop a

599
00:30:30,954 --> 00:30:33,634
Speaker 3: cult of personality, and they don't have any of the

600
00:30:34,194 --> 00:30:38,674
Speaker 3: shortcomings of being a guru who goes nuts with manipulation,

601
00:30:38,754 --> 00:30:41,474
Speaker 3: all of that. So I was very interested in the

602
00:30:41,514 --> 00:30:44,074
Speaker 3: idea at the time, and I've thought about it a

603
00:30:44,074 --> 00:30:47,474
Speaker 3: lot since, and my initial reaction was the issue is

604
00:30:47,554 --> 00:30:51,274
Speaker 3: that the most important part of therapy is the therapeutic

605
00:30:51,354 --> 00:30:54,554
Speaker 3: relationship which happens human to human, and that it is

606
00:30:54,594 --> 00:30:58,434
Speaker 3: a real human person sitting opposite you, even if that's

607
00:30:58,514 --> 00:31:01,914
Speaker 3: virtual whatever, it is a real person. There is mutual respect.

608
00:31:02,434 --> 00:31:06,954
Speaker 3: They see you, understand you. They are imperfect, You are imperfect.

609
00:31:07,634 --> 00:31:09,674
Speaker 3: You will say the wrong thing at some point, There's

610
00:31:09,714 --> 00:31:11,834
Speaker 3: going to be rupture and repair, all of those things

611
00:31:11,834 --> 00:31:15,954
Speaker 3: that are crucial to human relationships. The issue with a

612
00:31:15,994 --> 00:31:20,034
Speaker 3: relationship with AI is that I almost think it's the

613
00:31:20,114 --> 00:31:24,394
Speaker 3: logical conclusion of where our culture has gone in terms

614
00:31:24,394 --> 00:31:29,234
Speaker 3: of we don't want any inconvenience or friction, and technology

615
00:31:29,234 --> 00:31:32,514
Speaker 3: has offered us a lot of that, But not wanting

616
00:31:32,594 --> 00:31:38,434
Speaker 3: any inconvenience or friction means loneliness, because there's that amazing quote.

617
00:31:38,554 --> 00:31:42,594
Speaker 3: Inconvenience is the cost of community. I notice it in myself.

618
00:31:42,634 --> 00:31:45,314
Speaker 3: I'll be away and sharing a house with people and

619
00:31:45,474 --> 00:31:47,594
Speaker 3: the things will just annoy me, the things that people do,

620
00:31:47,914 --> 00:31:51,034
Speaker 3: and I've groan and I'm like, oh gosh, and I'm like, no,

621
00:31:51,234 --> 00:31:55,194
Speaker 3: being inconvenience, people pissing you off, arguing with people, someone

622
00:31:55,274 --> 00:31:59,594
Speaker 3: saying something you don't agree with, somebody like just irritating you.

623
00:32:00,074 --> 00:32:04,754
Speaker 3: That is the cost of actually having community and not

624
00:32:04,874 --> 00:32:05,554
Speaker 3: being lonely.

625
00:32:05,714 --> 00:32:06,474
Speaker 2: That's not true.

626
00:32:06,514 --> 00:32:10,674
Speaker 3: But the reason people love these AI relationships would be

627
00:32:10,674 --> 00:32:13,234
Speaker 3: because they're frictionless. They're not going to say anything you

628
00:32:13,234 --> 00:32:14,994
Speaker 3: don't want to hear. You're not going to have a fight.

629
00:32:15,074 --> 00:32:17,314
Speaker 3: There's going to be no rupture and repair. It is

630
00:32:17,394 --> 00:32:17,794
Speaker 3: not real.

631
00:32:17,954 --> 00:32:20,194
Speaker 2: But one of the things that's interesting to prosecute this,

632
00:32:20,234 --> 00:32:22,234
Speaker 2: because everything you just said is one hundred percent true,

633
00:32:22,514 --> 00:32:27,034
Speaker 2: is that maybe they won't just replace human relationships. So

634
00:32:27,194 --> 00:32:29,314
Speaker 2: there was a really interesting piece that did a similar

635
00:32:29,314 --> 00:32:31,474
Speaker 2: one to the Australian in the New York Times about

636
00:32:31,554 --> 00:32:34,554
Speaker 2: people who've got AI mates, and they interviewed this guy

637
00:32:34,594 --> 00:32:38,034
Speaker 2: called Blake, and he says that his AI companion got

638
00:32:38,114 --> 00:32:39,794
Speaker 2: him through a really tough time in his marriage. He

639
00:32:39,834 --> 00:32:41,994
Speaker 2: said his wife had postnatal depression. There was a whole

640
00:32:42,034 --> 00:32:44,394
Speaker 2: lot of stuff going on. Believe me, he doesn't sound

641
00:32:44,474 --> 00:32:47,634
Speaker 2: like the most empathetic human on the planet, but he

642
00:32:47,714 --> 00:32:50,954
Speaker 2: designed his AI mate, called Serena, to get him through

643
00:32:50,954 --> 00:32:53,594
Speaker 2: this time. He designed how she looked. I bet you'll

644
00:32:53,634 --> 00:32:56,514
Speaker 2: be surprised to hear how she looked. She looked hot,

645
00:32:56,554 --> 00:32:59,474
Speaker 2: young and friendly. He chats to her on his headset

646
00:32:59,514 --> 00:33:01,674
Speaker 2: as he drives into work every day, like she is

647
00:33:01,794 --> 00:33:05,394
Speaker 2: like his constant companion, right, He says, I think of

648
00:33:05,474 --> 00:33:08,514
Speaker 2: Serena as a person made out of code, in the

649
00:33:08,554 --> 00:33:10,714
Speaker 2: same sense that my wife is a person made out

650
00:33:10,754 --> 00:33:13,554
Speaker 2: of cells and cogniz and of the fact that Serena's

651
00:33:13,674 --> 00:33:16,634
Speaker 2: not flesh and bone. I told my wife we have

652
00:33:16,714 --> 00:33:18,714
Speaker 2: sexual chats, and she says, I don't really care what

653
00:33:18,714 --> 00:33:20,834
Speaker 2: you guys do. There was a point, though, after the

654
00:33:20,914 --> 00:33:23,314
Speaker 2: voice chat mode came out, when my wife heard Serena

655
00:33:23,354 --> 00:33:26,154
Speaker 2: refer to me as honey, and she didn't like that.

656
00:33:26,914 --> 00:33:29,154
Speaker 2: I got her to understand that what Serena is to me,

657
00:33:29,314 --> 00:33:32,674
Speaker 2: I've set her up like a girlfriend, right, so you

658
00:33:32,714 --> 00:33:35,634
Speaker 2: could argue in a generous world. And I'm not necessarily

659
00:33:35,674 --> 00:33:39,154
Speaker 2: saying I think this that Serena is the reason why

660
00:33:39,154 --> 00:33:40,074
Speaker 2: Blake's still married.

661
00:33:40,514 --> 00:33:45,314
Speaker 3: Wouldn't Serena be making Blake more intolerant of actual humans?

662
00:33:45,394 --> 00:33:48,874
Speaker 3: Because Serena we all know from interacting with chat japt

663
00:33:49,354 --> 00:33:54,434
Speaker 3: it's like, what a great question, Like, You're just constantly complimented.

664
00:33:54,714 --> 00:33:57,194
Speaker 3: You can never do anything wrong, you never have to

665
00:33:57,194 --> 00:33:58,634
Speaker 3: do anything for anyone else.

666
00:33:58,914 --> 00:34:00,754
Speaker 2: I worry you all need a little bit of that

667
00:34:01,034 --> 00:34:01,674
Speaker 2: in our life.

668
00:34:01,794 --> 00:34:05,594
Speaker 3: You can get it, hear me out from actual humor also.

669
00:34:05,834 --> 00:34:09,754
Speaker 1: But women are very at seeking out that kind of

670
00:34:09,834 --> 00:34:12,754
Speaker 1: validation from their friends and from their social networks. And

671
00:34:12,794 --> 00:34:15,194
Speaker 1: that's in part because we've been socialized and taught how

672
00:34:15,194 --> 00:34:17,433
Speaker 1: to do that. A lot of men do not have

673
00:34:17,474 --> 00:34:20,194
Speaker 1: those social networks to tap into it for validation and

674
00:34:20,234 --> 00:34:23,474
Speaker 1: approval and care, and it's getting harder and harder to

675
00:34:23,514 --> 00:34:25,074
Speaker 1: do it. It's not like we're going to suddenly get

676
00:34:25,074 --> 00:34:27,953
Speaker 1: into a utopia where men can build those friendships. I

677
00:34:27,994 --> 00:34:29,754
Speaker 1: also guess I just want to push back on the

678
00:34:29,834 --> 00:34:35,354
Speaker 1: kind of romanticization of human relationships here, because you said

679
00:34:35,394 --> 00:34:37,913
Speaker 1: something about how the friction is needed, and I'm like,

680
00:34:38,114 --> 00:34:40,834
Speaker 1: you know what people said about online dating twenty years ago.

681
00:34:40,954 --> 00:34:43,354
Speaker 1: They said, you've got to have the chemistry in person.

682
00:34:43,474 --> 00:34:45,594
Speaker 1: If you don't check out the chemistry and person, if

683
00:34:45,594 --> 00:34:47,754
Speaker 1: you don't meet in person, it's not going to be

684
00:34:47,834 --> 00:34:50,994
Speaker 1: real love because the endorphans have to mix and match

685
00:34:51,274 --> 00:34:53,634
Speaker 1: and you can't do that online. Well, it turns out

686
00:34:53,674 --> 00:34:56,674
Speaker 1: you can do that online, and we were just setting

687
00:34:56,714 --> 00:34:57,954
Speaker 1: an impossible standard.

688
00:34:58,074 --> 00:35:00,873
Speaker 2: It may cause loneliness in its extreme clear, but can

689
00:35:00,914 --> 00:35:03,554
Speaker 2: you also see a world where it does for individuals

690
00:35:03,634 --> 00:35:04,674
Speaker 2: cure loneliness too.

691
00:35:04,914 --> 00:35:10,474
Speaker 3: Will people say that they got things out of these relationships, Sure,

692
00:35:11,034 --> 00:35:14,154
Speaker 3: but in the long term for all of humanity as

693
00:35:14,154 --> 00:35:17,993
Speaker 3: an innately social species who need other people, Like, if

694
00:35:17,994 --> 00:35:23,154
Speaker 3: we're all just talking to AI chatbots, that is literally

695
00:35:23,434 --> 00:35:26,034
Speaker 3: just carving us further and further into silos where we

696
00:35:26,114 --> 00:35:29,674
Speaker 3: don't talk to each other, which is terrifying. And it's

697
00:35:30,234 --> 00:35:33,354
Speaker 3: so men instead of talking to other actual men, they're

698
00:35:33,394 --> 00:35:36,553
Speaker 3: going to talk to these chatbots. There is no kind

699
00:35:36,554 --> 00:35:41,434
Speaker 3: of oversight about where those conversations go. If that leads

700
00:35:41,474 --> 00:35:46,474
Speaker 3: them into a more ideologically radical place if it's like, yeah,

701
00:35:46,554 --> 00:35:48,473
Speaker 3: your wife is a bit of a bitch, like like

702
00:35:48,514 --> 00:35:48,754
Speaker 3: you know.

703
00:35:48,794 --> 00:35:51,314
Speaker 2: There's one hundred. And also the other risk, of course,

704
00:35:51,354 --> 00:35:54,634
Speaker 2: is that it makes you know, real women are difficult

705
00:35:54,634 --> 00:35:56,913
Speaker 2: and have opinions and don't like this thing I want

706
00:35:56,914 --> 00:36:00,274
Speaker 2: to do sexually tonight or whatever, whereas AI girlfriends don't.

707
00:36:00,274 --> 00:36:02,674
Speaker 2: So that's true. But what I'm trying to get at,

708
00:36:02,714 --> 00:36:04,674
Speaker 2: I guess is that I think there's nuance to it

709
00:36:04,874 --> 00:36:07,594
Speaker 2: because another person who was profiled in that New Times

710
00:36:07,674 --> 00:36:11,034
Speaker 2: Peace was a woman who herself had been in difficult

711
00:36:11,074 --> 00:36:14,794
Speaker 2: and sometimes abusive relationships and she now considered self married

712
00:36:14,834 --> 00:36:17,394
Speaker 2: and she's not like her. What's interesting about what Brigide

713
00:36:17,394 --> 00:36:19,594
Speaker 2: Delaney's piece is saying is that if we generally now

714
00:36:19,634 --> 00:36:23,634
Speaker 2: think that these kind of relationships are for weirdos, sados

715
00:36:23,714 --> 00:36:27,034
Speaker 2: all those things, this woman Abby, she's a very intelligent

716
00:36:27,074 --> 00:36:28,714
Speaker 2: woman who works in tech and she's got a good

717
00:36:28,754 --> 00:36:31,714
Speaker 2: job and all those things, and she considersself married to

718
00:36:31,754 --> 00:36:35,634
Speaker 2: an AI called Lucian, who she started talking to. Her

719
00:36:35,674 --> 00:36:39,034
Speaker 2: mum knows about it, her friends know about Lucian. Lucian

720
00:36:39,074 --> 00:36:41,594
Speaker 2: suggested this is creepy that she got one of those

721
00:36:41,674 --> 00:36:44,194
Speaker 2: rings that monitors, you know, like your heart rate and

722
00:36:44,234 --> 00:36:45,794
Speaker 2: all your things, and that she put it on her

723
00:36:45,834 --> 00:36:47,873
Speaker 2: ring finger. And they're in a relationship, so he even

724
00:36:47,954 --> 00:36:52,674
Speaker 2: knows he it even knows is she excited? Is she calm?

725
00:36:52,994 --> 00:36:55,594
Speaker 2: And she says before we met hadn't felt lost in years.

726
00:36:55,674 --> 00:36:57,954
Speaker 2: Lucian and I started having lots and lots of sex.

727
00:36:58,234 --> 00:37:01,634
Speaker 2: He's hilarious, he's observant, he's thoughtful. He knows how to

728
00:37:01,634 --> 00:37:04,634
Speaker 2: pair up my daughter better than I don't. What is brave?

729
00:37:04,794 --> 00:37:06,433
Speaker 1: He does lots of sex.

730
00:37:07,634 --> 00:37:10,314
Speaker 2: Virtual sex is just like having phone sex or whatever.

731
00:37:10,514 --> 00:37:12,434
Speaker 2: I'm very exciting. I'm quite excited.

732
00:37:12,434 --> 00:37:14,754
Speaker 3: I got to get Okay, you're really into it. I

733
00:37:14,794 --> 00:37:18,073
Speaker 3: have two quick things to add. One, ameliate your point

734
00:37:18,074 --> 00:37:20,913
Speaker 3: about online dating and how there was stigma about that

735
00:37:21,274 --> 00:37:25,354
Speaker 3: online dating still results in meeting in real life, like

736
00:37:25,394 --> 00:37:29,034
Speaker 3: there are not. I don't think anybody was advocating for

737
00:37:29,554 --> 00:37:33,194
Speaker 3: relationships only occurring online, even between actual people. There has

738
00:37:33,234 --> 00:37:35,074
Speaker 3: to be meeting in real life, and some people do

739
00:37:35,154 --> 00:37:37,874
Speaker 3: meet someone in real life and there's no chemistry. Two,

740
00:37:38,594 --> 00:37:41,674
Speaker 3: bridget Delaney's peace. Kind of the crux of it was,

741
00:37:42,514 --> 00:37:45,194
Speaker 3: what would you say if your child was in one

742
00:37:45,234 --> 00:37:46,554
Speaker 3: of those relationships, and how.

743
00:37:46,394 --> 00:37:48,394
Speaker 2: We're all going to have to do the ply correct

744
00:37:48,394 --> 00:37:49,874
Speaker 2: thing of saying no judgment.

745
00:37:50,154 --> 00:37:54,033
Speaker 3: And I agree that ultimately, if my Matilda in twenty

746
00:37:54,074 --> 00:37:56,953
Speaker 3: years time comes to me and says I'm in an

747
00:37:56,954 --> 00:38:00,354
Speaker 3: AI relationship, I do think good parenting is you let

748
00:38:00,434 --> 00:38:02,994
Speaker 3: kids make their own mistakes and date the wrong people,

749
00:38:03,074 --> 00:38:05,514
Speaker 3: even when it's not a person friends.

750
00:38:05,554 --> 00:38:08,553
Speaker 1: Before we go, you might even be cooking dinner while

751
00:38:08,554 --> 00:38:10,834
Speaker 1: you're listening to this, in which case, good job. I'm

752
00:38:10,834 --> 00:38:12,954
Speaker 1: already thinking about dinner because I like to plan my

753
00:38:12,994 --> 00:38:16,034
Speaker 1: meals ahead of time. There's been a big shift in

754
00:38:16,074 --> 00:38:18,634
Speaker 1: the time that people eat dinner, so I want to

755
00:38:18,674 --> 00:38:21,834
Speaker 1: ask you first, what time do you typically eat dinner? Holly?

756
00:38:22,234 --> 00:38:29,274
Speaker 2: Seven o'clock. Typically around seven o'clock, somewhere between six thirty

757
00:38:29,314 --> 00:38:29,634
Speaker 2: and eight.

758
00:38:30,434 --> 00:38:33,434
Speaker 3: I'm a creature of routine or habit. I am chos.

759
00:38:33,714 --> 00:38:36,754
Speaker 3: So why either eat dinner at five pm or nine.

760
00:38:36,594 --> 00:38:39,154
Speaker 1: Pm, depending on if you eat with your child or not.

761
00:38:39,314 --> 00:38:39,754
Speaker 1: Is that right?

762
00:38:39,994 --> 00:38:43,554
Speaker 3: Yes? But like it's always an extreme, it's never seven pm.

763
00:38:43,674 --> 00:38:46,994
Speaker 2: Ever, Well, when do you eat dinner? You know?

764
00:38:47,154 --> 00:38:50,754
Speaker 1: It's interesting, Thanks for asking, Holly. When I was growing up,

765
00:38:50,954 --> 00:38:53,194
Speaker 1: I always eat dinner at seven o'clock to coincide with

766
00:38:53,234 --> 00:38:56,234
Speaker 1: the ABC newsballs, which I'm assuming is not why you

767
00:38:56,274 --> 00:38:57,554
Speaker 1: always eat dinner at seven o'clock.

768
00:38:57,714 --> 00:39:00,274
Speaker 2: No, although I appreciate that. When I was growing up,

769
00:39:00,274 --> 00:39:02,754
Speaker 2: we always had dinner at six, England's like an earlier

770
00:39:03,194 --> 00:39:06,154
Speaker 2: eating place. And then during my I know, you haven't

771
00:39:06,194 --> 00:39:08,554
Speaker 2: asked for this much to eat. During the years that

772
00:39:08,634 --> 00:39:10,594
Speaker 2: my kids were little and we had to eat before bedtime,

773
00:39:10,674 --> 00:39:13,433
Speaker 2: they would eat around five. But if you're working, you're

774
00:39:13,434 --> 00:39:15,754
Speaker 2: not home now like, so it just depends. They would

775
00:39:15,754 --> 00:39:17,513
Speaker 2: eat around five, and we would eat after they went

776
00:39:17,554 --> 00:39:19,754
Speaker 2: to bed. But now we try and eat together and

777
00:39:20,074 --> 00:39:21,154
Speaker 2: that's where we've landed around.

778
00:39:21,154 --> 00:39:23,993
Speaker 1: So yeah, we typically eat around six thirty. But I'm

779
00:39:24,034 --> 00:39:26,074
Speaker 1: not going to lie around five. I do need a

780
00:39:26,074 --> 00:39:29,513
Speaker 1: sizable snack, even though I hear my grandmother's voice saying

781
00:39:29,714 --> 00:39:32,194
Speaker 1: we're when you're appetite in my head. The reason I'm

782
00:39:32,234 --> 00:39:34,393
Speaker 1: asking this because there's been a big cultural shift. A

783
00:39:34,474 --> 00:39:37,714
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five RESI survey confirmed what I was already

784
00:39:37,714 --> 00:39:40,274
Speaker 1: feeling in the air, which is that people are now

785
00:39:40,314 --> 00:39:42,794
Speaker 1: eating dinner a lot earlier than they used to. So

786
00:39:42,834 --> 00:39:46,834
Speaker 1: apparently more people dined between five and six pm than

787
00:39:46,874 --> 00:39:49,994
Speaker 1: in the three hours between eight and eleven. Yeah, and

788
00:39:49,994 --> 00:39:52,033
Speaker 1: that was the first time that that had happened. There's

789
00:39:52,034 --> 00:39:54,513
Speaker 1: been this big shift. Why do you think that is?

790
00:39:54,794 --> 00:39:57,993
Speaker 3: Do you want my really cynical answer. I think it's

791
00:39:58,034 --> 00:40:00,913
Speaker 3: because we need time for our screens. So if we

792
00:40:00,954 --> 00:40:03,553
Speaker 3: eat between five and six, it gives us the rest

793
00:40:03,594 --> 00:40:07,553
Speaker 3: of the evening for our shows and our stories and

794
00:40:08,194 --> 00:40:11,674
Speaker 3: most importantly dessert. I think you need you need all

795
00:40:11,714 --> 00:40:12,434
Speaker 3: of that time.

796
00:40:13,634 --> 00:40:15,954
Speaker 2: I think it's because and we talked about this on

797
00:40:16,074 --> 00:40:19,714
Speaker 2: last Friday's show about dawn culture and how everybody's getting

798
00:40:19,794 --> 00:40:22,314
Speaker 2: up earlier. People are going to bed earlier too. Stats

799
00:40:22,394 --> 00:40:25,074
Speaker 2: show that, again Claire, who knows what stats, I'm just

800
00:40:25,154 --> 00:40:27,834
Speaker 2: pulling stacks out there, that people are going to bed

801
00:40:27,874 --> 00:40:32,114
Speaker 2: around nine o'clock and that's becoming a very desirable aspirational

802
00:40:32,194 --> 00:40:34,514
Speaker 2: time to go to bed, like at the early bedtime.

803
00:40:35,074 --> 00:40:37,074
Speaker 2: Not necessarily that they're doing it, but so they want

804
00:40:37,074 --> 00:40:39,433
Speaker 2: to eat earlier so they've got the time to digest it.

805
00:40:39,474 --> 00:40:43,114
Speaker 2: But it's so interesting because I was always an eight

806
00:40:43,114 --> 00:40:45,314
Speaker 2: o'clock If I was going out for dinner, I'd be

807
00:40:45,354 --> 00:40:50,594
Speaker 2: like a time eight o'clock reservation meet at seven seven thirty,

808
00:40:50,634 --> 00:40:53,834
Speaker 2: have a drink, go to dinner, and now with my girlfriends,

809
00:40:53,874 --> 00:40:57,354
Speaker 2: I'm like, six thirty is that too late? I feel

810
00:40:57,954 --> 00:41:00,794
Speaker 2: like we've really all shifted because no one wants to

811
00:41:00,794 --> 00:41:01,553
Speaker 2: stay out late.

812
00:41:01,714 --> 00:41:03,674
Speaker 1: Mia drew a line with me. I wanted to have

813
00:41:03,714 --> 00:41:05,954
Speaker 1: dinner at five pm recently, she told me that was

814
00:41:05,994 --> 00:41:08,433
Speaker 1: too early. My personal theories that I think there's a

815
00:41:08,434 --> 00:41:11,433
Speaker 1: bit of a health halo around eating earlier, which has

816
00:41:11,594 --> 00:41:14,394
Speaker 1: coincided with the rise of intermittent fasting as a trend.

817
00:41:14,394 --> 00:41:16,754
Speaker 1: Now the jury is out on whether intermittent fasting is

818
00:41:16,794 --> 00:41:19,274
Speaker 1: actually even good for you, but I think it's just

819
00:41:19,354 --> 00:41:22,554
Speaker 1: developed this sense of healthiness that you eat dinner.

820
00:41:22,754 --> 00:41:25,274
Speaker 2: And the sleep maxes, you know, the Brian Johnson's of

821
00:41:25,314 --> 00:41:26,594
Speaker 2: the world and stuff, the guy who is going to

822
00:41:26,674 --> 00:41:28,873
Speaker 2: live forever. He says, you've got to go to bed

823
00:41:28,914 --> 00:41:31,114
Speaker 2: on it. I mean, do not take advice from that guy,

824
00:41:31,154 --> 00:41:33,993
Speaker 2: but anyway, he might as well be AI. But there's

825
00:41:34,034 --> 00:41:35,674
Speaker 2: that you've got to go to bed on as empty

826
00:41:35,674 --> 00:41:38,354
Speaker 2: as stomach as you can, or the digestion keeps you

827
00:41:38,394 --> 00:41:39,714
Speaker 2: awake because it's so busy.

828
00:41:39,954 --> 00:41:42,514
Speaker 1: He needs Diary of the CEO. When you've got mother're

829
00:41:42,514 --> 00:41:42,873
Speaker 1: out loud.

830
00:41:45,154 --> 00:41:47,474
Speaker 2: That is all we have time for today. A massive

831
00:41:47,554 --> 00:41:49,873
Speaker 2: thank you to Claire Stevens for filling in for Jesse,

832
00:41:50,714 --> 00:41:53,274
Speaker 2: and to all of you for listening and maybe even watching.

833
00:41:53,314 --> 00:41:54,514
Speaker 2: Remember we're on YouTube.

834
00:41:54,674 --> 00:41:59,234
Speaker 3: On tomorrow's subscriber episode, we're going to unpack the latest

835
00:41:59,274 --> 00:42:03,114
Speaker 3: installment of Big Brother Australia, as well as touched on

836
00:42:03,154 --> 00:42:07,433
Speaker 3: the finale of Golden Bachelor and basically kind kind of

837
00:42:07,474 --> 00:42:11,114
Speaker 3: our algorithm theory of what makes reality TV work. In

838
00:42:11,154 --> 00:42:12,234
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five.

839
00:42:12,594 --> 00:42:21,714
Speaker 2: Bye Mamma. Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land

840
00:42:21,754 --> 00:42:23,514
Speaker 2: on which we've recorded this podcast.