Speaker 1: You're listening to i'mum with mea podcast. Hi, I'm a
Speaker 1: Shiny Dante and welcome to him. But are you happy?
Speaker 1: Do you ever feel a sense of dread when you're
Speaker 1: added to yet another group chat? What's meant to make
Speaker 1: communication easier can often feel exhausting. Between the constant notifications,
Speaker 1: endless message threads, and multiple conversations happening at once, group
Speaker 1: chats can quickly become overwhelming. It's hard to know what's important,
Speaker 1: what can wait, and whether you're being rude if you
Speaker 1: don't reply. And while they're designed to keep us connected,
Speaker 1: they can also create a surprising amount of mental fatigue.
Speaker 1: There's the pressure to always be available, to keep up,
Speaker 1: and to constantly make tiny decisions like do I reply?
Speaker 2: Can I mute?
Speaker 3: Without feeling guilty?
Speaker 1: In this episode, I speak with Nearly Rose batter Stuff,
Speaker 1: gen Z specialist and award winning founder of youth mental
Speaker 1: health charity all Kind about why group chats can feel
Speaker 1: so draining and what we can actually do about it.
Speaker 1: We talk about what we lose when so much of
Speaker 1: our communication and lose from face to face conversations to
Speaker 1: digital ones, the pressure to always be on, and some
Speaker 1: practical ways to make our relationship with group chats feel
Speaker 1: a little less overwhelming. Here's our conversation. Really welcome to
Speaker 1: but are you happy? I am very excited to dive
Speaker 1: into this topic with you today.
Speaker 3: Me Tooshannie, I'm so happy to be here with you.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting, right because I feel like with group
Speaker 1: chats it is so niche, yet it is so relatable,
Speaker 1: and I think we need more airtime to talk about it.
Speaker 1: Hence why we're going to be talking about it today.
Speaker 3: Absolutely niche to our generation, but a very very real
Speaker 3: experience that I think we should unpack.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, And I'm actually really curious for you. What
Speaker 1: are you like in group chats?
Speaker 3: I'm a bit of a ghost, to be honest. I yeah,
Speaker 3: because I'm on my phone so much for work, I
Speaker 3: see notifications as all the same thing, unless it's like
Speaker 3: a phone call from my mum or my partner that's
Speaker 3: kind of the only outlier, or you know, my closest
Speaker 3: friends that kind of thing, or a one on one
Speaker 3: text from one of those above people. But if I'm
Speaker 3: in a group chat, you know, from three people all
Speaker 3: the way to like ten people, which I don't really
Speaker 3: have that many groups of friends to be honest, but
Speaker 3: I see them as part of my Slack notifications, my emails, Instagram, dms,
Speaker 3: which having kind of a business profile means that it's
Speaker 3: not really just for friendship. So I group them all
Speaker 3: together in my brain, and to me, it is admin.
Speaker 3: Like at its core, it is admin except for those
Speaker 3: kind of one on ones and those phone calls. It's
Speaker 3: just it's I find it so difficult, and therefore I
Speaker 3: become a bit of a ghoster, to be honest, what about.
Speaker 1: You, Yeah, I love the archetype of the ghost. I
Speaker 1: think we've got one. I feel like I am the lurker,
Speaker 1: so like I'm really I am really shit with group chats,
Speaker 1: Like I get really overwhelmed. And that's why I'm like
Speaker 1: really excited to talk about it, because I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm the type of person. So you know, I might
Speaker 1: have a lot of group chats going on WhatsApp and
Speaker 1: then I will like hover over it when I see
Speaker 1: there's a notification, but I don't click in because I
Speaker 1: don't want people to see that I've seen it and
Speaker 1: haven't replied yet. Yeah, so I'm already overthinking everything. And
Speaker 1: then I go the other way where like I want
Speaker 1: to take a step back. So that's that's my archetype.
Speaker 1: I got the ghoster and the lurker.
Speaker 3: Oh it's so hard. I've also heard of people who,
Speaker 3: you know, get so overwhelmed by these things, and you know,
Speaker 3: maybe they have Like this particular anecdote I heard she
Speaker 3: had multiple kids, she has running a business, and she's
Speaker 3: trying to keep up with, you know, this group chat
Speaker 3: of all of her kind of like high school friends
Speaker 3: or whatever. And she also had ADHD, So it's like
Speaker 3: just a recipe for disaster. And I don't even think
Speaker 3: you need to have neurodiversity or kids to experience this
Speaker 3: sort of challenge with group chats. I think it is
Speaker 3: just at its baseline overwhelming, and some people are better
Speaker 3: at diving into that than others. But she kind of
Speaker 3: got to the point where she was missing kind of
Speaker 3: like core updates in the group that weren't just like sharing,
Speaker 3: you know, about pop culture or memes. It was like, oh, no,
Speaker 3: like my kid is in hospital because he broke his leg,
Speaker 3: and she's missing these things. And then she's feeling this
Speaker 3: like intense guilt for not keeping up in the lives
Speaker 3: of the people that she cares about because it's wrapped
Speaker 3: up in this constant like asynchronous pinging notification situation, and
Speaker 3: so her friends were like, Okay, you know what, Like
Speaker 3: we understand that, like you've got a lot on your
Speaker 3: brain works a bit differently, So we're just going to
Speaker 3: create another channel called like key life updates for you
Speaker 3: in particular, so you don't miss anything, but you can
Speaker 3: also stay in the other one and you can dive
Speaker 3: in when it suits you. But like, we don't expect
Speaker 3: you to like trawl through hundreds of messages, you know,
Speaker 3: if you're just looking for those key updates.
Speaker 2: I really love that. That sounds like a healthy group chat.
Speaker 3: I know, and it makes sense because yeah, not everyone's
Speaker 3: brains work the same way or have the same capacity
Speaker 3: to be constantly across, you know, many conversations in one y.
Speaker 2: It's so hard.
Speaker 1: It is really hard, and it gets me thinking a
Speaker 1: lot about like why do you think group chats have
Speaker 1: gone from this space of fun and connection to I guess, well,
Speaker 1: for some people pretty stressful.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's this constant like social hype of vigilance. Right,
Speaker 3: like you were explaining before, this overthinking, you're constantly having
Speaker 3: to not just keep up with the constant influx and
Speaker 3: the quantity of messages, but you're constantly having to like
Speaker 3: tone read, you're analyzing the social situation, the energy. You're
Speaker 3: then self editing as well, and like by the time
Speaker 3: you've come up with what you deem to be an
Speaker 3: appropriate response with the appropriate emojis, or you're trying to
Speaker 3: drop like a really funny response, like my love language
Speaker 3: is definitely human, Like I'm at my best when like
Speaker 3: me and a couple of friends are just like firing off,
Speaker 3: you know, different reels that we found or memes like
Speaker 3: around the same kind of topic, and it's just like
Speaker 3: this pure kind of joy. But that might be like
Speaker 3: ten minutes out of my night as opposed to like
Speaker 3: this prolonged, evergreen conversation. But yeah, if you're constantly self
Speaker 3: editing and kind of only perfecting your message to what
Speaker 3: you deem to be appropriate, you're kind of like already
Speaker 3: missing maybe two topics, Like you're too late, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. Like it's so it's so hard to
Speaker 3: keep up, and it's so hard to reserve all of
Speaker 3: that brain energy on top of your work. Maybe you're
Speaker 3: a parent, maybe you've got other things going on, a
Speaker 3: chronic illness, whatever, it is, like it just makes complete
Speaker 3: sense to me as someone who you know, works in
Speaker 3: mental health and the conversations that you have all the
Speaker 3: time on this podcast, like it would make sense to you.
Speaker 3: And I just hope that people listening, particularly women who
Speaker 3: are constantly overburdened with the mental load of running. Maybe
Speaker 3: it's a household, maybe it's a business, maybe it's both,
Speaker 3: maybe it's something completely different. Taking care of your elderly
Speaker 3: parents were constantly overburdened, and we know that we're taking
Speaker 3: on like nine more hours per week of unpaid labor,
Speaker 3: Like it just makes complete sense. So I really want
Speaker 3: people to understand that it's not just a personal failure.
Speaker 3: It's like something that our brains were never ever designed
Speaker 3: to take on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so true.
Speaker 1: I mean, like you think about it, it's like thousands
Speaker 1: and thousands of years ago, like they.
Speaker 2: Did not have this issue. No, you're so right.
Speaker 1: We haven't been like our brains haven't been programmed to
Speaker 1: be in the generation that we're in where we're so
Speaker 1: hyper connected with the technology and our bodies are breaking down,
Speaker 1: like it's a lot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I guess at the same time, if we
Speaker 3: do think about that our brains were designed to fear
Speaker 3: social rejection. So it's like, that's why we care. That's
Speaker 3: why we care about keeping up and making sure that
Speaker 3: no one is laughing at our response behind our backs,
Speaker 3: or no one replying to something that you thought was
Speaker 3: really funny. Like that plays on you more than you
Speaker 3: think because of the fact that our brains are designed
Speaker 3: to fear social rejection, because that used to mean being
Speaker 3: ostracized from the group and facing death, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean. So it kind of comes back to like
Speaker 3: our lizard brains being like, oh wow, like I really
Speaker 3: do need to participate, not just because of FOMO, but
Speaker 3: because I have this innate fear of being rejected by
Speaker 3: the people.
Speaker 1: That I care about totally, totally, and sometimes it's even
Speaker 1: people that you don't even know, like you want.
Speaker 2: To still get a part of it. You're like, wait,
Speaker 2: what do I care so much?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting too because there's this sense of feeling
Speaker 1: like we're always on in group chats, right, yeah.
Speaker 3: I hate it, oh my gosh, being always on just
Speaker 3: in general, even if you don't work in social media,
Speaker 3: you feel like you have to always be on.
Speaker 1: Always beyond it's a lot and exhausting, But what do
Speaker 1: you think that actually does to someone's stress levels over time.
Speaker 3: I think it's like this chronic adrenaline fatigue of like,
Speaker 3: you know, one that fear of social rejection. That's kind
Speaker 3: of why we are always online, either that or fear
Speaker 3: of being fired because we're not across you know, current
Speaker 3: events or news or responding to emails when our employers
Speaker 3: expect us to. It's also part of our identity as well,
Speaker 3: particularly for young people who are shaping themselves at the
Speaker 3: same time as they're consuming. You know, Pinterest is absolutely
Speaker 3: booming with young people, particularly after the social media ban,
Speaker 3: because it is that kind of like discovery and editing
Speaker 3: of self. You know, it's like this identity shaping through
Speaker 3: other people's content around their lives, and it's like the
Speaker 3: first time we've been able to look further than just
Speaker 3: a magazine or Hollywood and go, oh, hey, that's kind
Speaker 3: of who I want to be, I think, Or maybe
Speaker 3: I could try that on, or that hobby looks really interesting,
Speaker 3: or I didn't even know that job existed. Like, it's
Speaker 3: part of this sense of self that is like one
Speaker 3: and the same. There is no offline and online to
Speaker 3: young people. It is this one kind of ambient sense
Speaker 3: of self. It exists all together and it's really really
Speaker 3: hard to separate.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so true. It's also connected now, yeah, too connected.
Speaker 3: What have we done? I don't know how do we
Speaker 3: go back from this?
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I have this theory where I feel like we're going
Speaker 1: to go through this massive pendulum swing as a society
Speaker 1: where it's like, you know, the last I don't know,
Speaker 1: twenty thirty years, Like there's been this ramp up of
Speaker 1: technology and social media and everything, and then now I'm
Speaker 1: noticing whether it's my algorithm or not. This is also
Speaker 1: variable is people are now getting devices like the brick phone,
Speaker 1: know all these.
Speaker 2: Things, and that's coming up more so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people are annoyed, like I now try to rebel
Speaker 1: against a system. Like I'm on the train and I'm
Speaker 1: trying not to look at my phone. I'm looking at them.
Speaker 5: A book, Ohno, I like this, Yeah, I feel really
Speaker 5: like superior. Yeah well yeah, or a paper book even better?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally old school way.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 1: So why do you think group chats sometimes feel more
Speaker 1: intense or performative than that one on one connection.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's because you are talking to multiple
Speaker 3: people at once, and you're self editing for multiple different
Speaker 3: personalities and lives, and some people just do better with
Speaker 3: one on one situations in general. Like I fear like
Speaker 3: group scenarios in person, especially when I don't know everyone,
Speaker 3: Like that is so hard for me. I'm a socially
Speaker 3: anxious person and I find that really difficult. But even so,
Speaker 3: at least when you're in person with these people, you
Speaker 3: get feedback in real time, you get body language, you
Speaker 3: get a sense of tone, you can move around the space.
Speaker 3: You're not like trapped. You don't feel this sense of
Speaker 3: like that you owe anyone anything. You can remove yourself like,
Speaker 3: it's just how humans have always connected with each other.
Speaker 3: That's like, you know, dog downa stage, you will talk
Speaker 3: all about like oxytocin and the dopamine involved in that
Speaker 3: human connection and being side by side with someone. Whereas
Speaker 3: when you are looking at like a group chat that
Speaker 3: you're catching up on, it feels like you're socially catching
Speaker 3: up the same way that you might catch up on emails,
Speaker 3: Like the two are the same thing to your brain,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Like, essentially, you're just going
Speaker 3: through notifications and you're reading new information the same way
Speaker 3: as if you're on your Slack channel for work, like
Speaker 3: it just yeah, unless you have a particularly enjoyable like
Speaker 3: pop culture event that you're all like weighing in on,
Speaker 3: and it's like haha, it's light and enjoyable, like if
Speaker 3: someone's you know, disclosing something really difficult and personal, Like,
Speaker 3: that's a really hard thing to put into a digital
Speaker 3: group environment, you know what I mean, Like it's so flattened.
Speaker 3: There's no nuance. It's so hard to feel like you're
Speaker 3: saying the right thing. You don't get immediate validation in
Speaker 3: terms of that eye contact or body language. It's like
Speaker 3: for people who are socially anxious and you know, find
Speaker 3: it hard enough to do it in person, Like how
Speaker 3: is it going to be any easier when we're just
Speaker 3: like typing data and putting it out into the ether,
Speaker 3: Like it just it doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting you talk about social anxiety because I
Speaker 1: definitely can get socially anxious going to events and if
Speaker 1: there's people I don't know, well, you know, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: And it gets me thinking about is there such a
Speaker 1: thing called digital social anxiety? And does that show up
Speaker 1: in groups, because it sounds like it does.
Speaker 4: I feel like I have it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it's any different from social anxiety.
Speaker 3: I think, like we touched on, the online sense of
Speaker 3: and the offline are one and the same. You know,
Speaker 3: like us, we have a public kind of profile on Instagram,
Speaker 3: we're still us, Like we're still representing our human selves,
Speaker 3: and so yes, it might be a further extension on
Speaker 3: one side of us, like it might be further up
Speaker 3: the spectrum in terms of like polish and credibility and
Speaker 3: things like that, but it's still at its core, you know,
Speaker 3: who we are. And that is exactly what it feels
Speaker 3: like for people on Instagram or Facebook or whatever socials
Speaker 3: they're on at the moment as young people, because they
Speaker 3: feel this kind of pressure to curate and edit and
Speaker 3: so it just, you know, it's not any different that
Speaker 3: anxiety that they're feeling for their online self is the
Speaker 3: exact same anxiety they're feeling for their offline self.
Speaker 1: It's hard, it's hard, it's hard, and I definitely feel
Speaker 1: that because when you especially when I've done like self
Speaker 1: development programs or courses, you naturally get added into a
Speaker 1: group chat. So you know, there's that feeling of oh, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's all of these people I don't know, so I
Speaker 1: know myself spending a bit more time thinking about my message.
Speaker 1: And then so like that's self editing piece, like are
Speaker 1: doing that And then so that's one process, and then
Speaker 1: you put it into the group and then you're kind
Speaker 1: of waiting to be like will anyone reply or will
Speaker 1: anyone like it? And then you're comparing how many likes
Speaker 1: did I get to other people?
Speaker 2: And then you're just in this whole other voice leave terrible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone gets a notification exactly like basically, you non
Speaker 3: consensually signed this social contract by being like plopped into
Speaker 3: that group that you would participate, that you would validate
Speaker 3: other people's experiences and opinions, that you would be active
Speaker 3: and present, because you know, if people feel like you're
Speaker 3: not present, that maybe you don't value them as much
Speaker 3: as other things in your life. Like it's like this, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's like this social contract that we all unwillingly sign
Speaker 3: when we enter these spaces, and what that actually means
Speaker 3: for the emotional and mental labor in real life can
Speaker 3: be like astronomical when you tie it by thirty group
Speaker 3: chats like there is no way. I think I have
Speaker 3: maybe like three four group chats, and a couple of
Speaker 3: those are family, and like I love receiving photos of
Speaker 3: my parents' dogs and things like that. So it's like
Speaker 3: it doesn't feel like work, but man, like it is
Speaker 3: so exhausting and I often sounds really bad, but I
Speaker 3: often like let my notifications, like even texts with like
Speaker 3: you know, three people in a group chat or on Instagram,
Speaker 3: Like I have a few group chats and things like that,
Speaker 3: I'll let them pile up till like the end of
Speaker 3: the week, and then I will literally put on my
Speaker 3: to do list like clear out notification.
Speaker 4: Organized.
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's organized, but it, like we kind of
Speaker 3: said before, it kind of lumps everyone into the same
Speaker 3: sense of admin and it's like, okay, cool, now I'll
Speaker 3: sit down with a cup of tea and I often
Speaker 3: do it like on my desktop as if I'm like
Speaker 3: responding to an email because it's faster, like how did
Speaker 3: we get here?
Speaker 5: You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: It's like insane. Yeah, yeah, it's really it does feel
Speaker 3: like admin. It does feel like a burden. Sometimes it
Speaker 3: does feel like extra load and extra work on top
Speaker 3: of what you've already got going on in your life,
Speaker 3: So I think like we have to really look at
Speaker 3: ways that we can be like, you know what, like
Speaker 3: this woman who spoke to her friends and said, you
Speaker 3: know what, like this is really hard for me, Like
Speaker 3: my brain finds this really difficult. Can we just do
Speaker 3: like an updates only kind of situation where I can
Speaker 3: opt into that and just get like the key headlines
Speaker 3: instead of having to search for nuance in masses and
Speaker 3: masses of data and not feel like I'm letting you down.
Speaker 3: Like people want that sense of like feeling less overwhelmed
Speaker 3: in terms of the quantity and volume that you have
Speaker 3: to look through, but they also want that feeling of
Speaker 3: like I don't want to let you down. I want
Speaker 3: you to know that I care about you, I value
Speaker 3: what you have to say, but like I'm struggling right now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: It was interesting you mentioned even you talked about burden
Speaker 1: and it gets me thinking, like do you think people
Speaker 1: are more driven by fomo or not wanting to come
Speaker 1: across as rude when they feel this pressure to reply.
Speaker 3: I think it depends on what level of empathy they have,
Speaker 3: right Also, like if there are people pleaser, I've experienced
Speaker 3: both myself like I've like, oh, like I wonder what's happening,
Speaker 3: like you know, and also did my comment that I
Speaker 3: thought was really funny did it get a lot of reaction? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Did I make everyone happy? Did I make everyone laugh?
Speaker 3: And yeah, if there's commentary on something that I'm interested
Speaker 3: I think At the same time, though, we have to
Speaker 3: kind of look at like what's the cost of that
Speaker 3: fomo and not wanting people to feel like you don't
Speaker 3: value their messages because is that worth more than you
Speaker 3: intentionally spending a bunch of time like on your device?
Speaker 3: Are you sacrificing time with your family? Like are you
Speaker 3: sacrificing time working? Because I think the like the flip
Speaker 3: side of this conversation is what it looks like for
Speaker 3: someone in the life of say a Shani, who is
Speaker 3: constantly on her phone responding to all of these different
Speaker 3: group chats because you feel a sense of fomo, because
Speaker 3: you feel a sense of duty to respond to your
Speaker 3: closest people and the people that you care about, and
Speaker 3: then these random people in the group project or whoever.
Speaker 3: It is, like it doesn't really matter, you know, like
Speaker 3: what's drawing us to that? It's like what is it
Speaker 3: drawing us away from because I am pretty good about
Speaker 3: putting my phone down when I want to. Mostly it's
Speaker 3: like me just like throwing my phone in another room
Speaker 3: and closing the door at the end of the day
Speaker 3: because I'm so over stimulated and I'm so over like
Speaker 3: my hand hurts, because it's like part of my job.
Speaker 3: I'm just always on it, right, and I find it
Speaker 3: a little easier in my personal life to close it
Speaker 3: or like seven pm, put on charge and that's me
Speaker 3: done for the day. But my partner, on the other hand,
Speaker 3: like he doesn't use his phone for work at all.
Speaker 3: He's a health practitioner, so he doesn't go on social media,
Speaker 3: like he doesn't need that at all, And so when
Speaker 3: he gets home from work, he's catching up on all
Speaker 3: of the like AFL conversations and like fantasy football or whatever.
Speaker 3: He'll probably hate me for outing him, but like my
Speaker 3: lord does he spend a lot of time in those
Speaker 3: group chats that are really kicking off, particularly around footy games,
Speaker 3: which happened like I don't know, three times a week
Speaker 3: at the moment or whatever.
Speaker 2: It is such a different world for me. I'm like,
Speaker 2: what is that world?
Speaker 3: Like, oh my god, that's all. I love it. Like
Speaker 3: he's great, Like we talk about you know, like can
Speaker 3: you just put your phone down and like we'll have dinner.
Speaker 3: It's not like he's constantly engaged in it, but you
Speaker 3: do notice him picking it up a lot more around
Speaker 3: like footy games and key events and things like that,
Speaker 3: and like I look at it and I'm like, that
Speaker 3: is just like hectic the amount, like it's ping ping
Speaker 3: ping ping ping pin pin and he has the phomo.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, it's like, what is that
Speaker 3: dragging you away from? You know, like are we trying
Speaker 3: to have dinner right now? And sometimes he'll be like wait,
Speaker 3: like there's like one minute left in the game, like
Speaker 3: everyone's going crazy, and I'm like, okay, cool, cool, cool,
Speaker 3: that's fine. But like what if like we had kids
Speaker 3: and they really needed you or yeah, So I think
Speaker 3: we just have to look at the flip side of
Speaker 3: it as well, because group chats aren't harmless. They one
Speaker 3: can make the participant feel like really overwhelmed and like
Speaker 3: really overburdened for trying to care for everyone in there
Speaker 3: emotionally and the mental load of responding to everything and
Speaker 3: making everyone feel validated. But at the same time, What
Speaker 3: are you missing out on in your real life?
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good reflective question as well,
Speaker 1: because it's like we only have attention towards one thing,
Speaker 1: which means we're giving it to somewhere where are we
Speaker 1: taking it from?
Speaker 3: So I love that.
Speaker 4: I love that reflection.
Speaker 1: So when conversations move from face to face to text,
Speaker 1: you know we do, and I know you mentioned this before,
Speaker 1: we start to take out tone and body language. How
Speaker 1: much do those factors contribute to overthinking and misreading things?
Speaker 3: Oh? I think a lot. Like I don't know too
Speaker 3: much about body language and things like that and the
Speaker 3: psychology of that, but I think just like everyone will
Speaker 3: know what that feels like to have a conversation one
Speaker 3: on one versus on a think a group chat like
Speaker 3: that is. Yeah, it's just completely different. So yeah, I
Speaker 3: think we just have to always come back to that
Speaker 3: and be like, there there is a reason that it's
Speaker 3: a lot more taxing to do that on the group chat,
Speaker 3: because it's costing us a lot more thinking. You know,
Speaker 3: it's not just innate.
Speaker 1: We have to think about it totally. Yeah, And it's
Speaker 1: funny because I feel like I'm a very expressive person
Speaker 1: online so like, I'm the emojis explanation marks xes for
Speaker 1: the kisses and stuff. So if I get a message
Speaker 1: back and it's just a straight message yeah K or
Speaker 1: like no X or maybe one X, I'm ruins your day?
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and you're just I'm.
Speaker 1: Left with thinking, oh, did I do something?
Speaker 2: What's going on?
Speaker 1: And then I'm just spiraling in this illusion when it
Speaker 1: has nothing, like there is nothing there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, and it's so exhausting.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh wow, okay, this was just this was
Speaker 1: just me and my overthinking and me feeling insecure.
Speaker 4: Great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And everyone has that experience of like having a
Speaker 3: difficult conversation over text when you knew that you probably
Speaker 3: shouldn't have but you did it anyway, and then it
Speaker 3: just like turns to shit and you're like, oh wow,
Speaker 3: like I really shouldn't have done that. It would have
Speaker 3: been so much easier in person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally totally.
Speaker 3: So.
Speaker 1: I listened to a podcast of this behavioral specialist and
Speaker 1: she specializes in body language, and she was saying that
Speaker 1: our brain is twelve point five times more likely to
Speaker 1: believe our gestures over our words. Yeah wow, And I
Speaker 1: was like, that is so interesting but also so powerful
Speaker 1: to realize how nonverbal communication it's a thing.
Speaker 2: We need that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent, and you don't get any of it.
Speaker 4: No, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Group chats, Yeah totally, And I think that's why I
Speaker 1: probably subconsciously overcompensate. But I'm like, I'm going to give
Speaker 1: you more explanation marks emojis and yes yeah ha ha
Speaker 1: ha ha you know, yeah.
Speaker 3: Which costs two more energy if you were to just
Speaker 3: do it naturally in real life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely more of my conversation with Nilly after the break.
Speaker 2: So I feel like a lot.
Speaker 1: Of people they have this burden where they need a reply,
Speaker 1: but they feel exhausted at the same time. What would
Speaker 1: healthy digital hygiene look like in this particular situation.
Speaker 3: For me personally, I probably feel like I can leave
Speaker 3: the text or you know, like group chat situation for
Speaker 3: like a few days, maybe till the weekend, maybe like
Speaker 3: four days. You know, like I feel like my people
Speaker 3: in my life they know that that's how my brain works,
Speaker 3: Like I'm overwhelmed with work and you know, like there's
Speaker 3: a bit of grace there. But if it was something
Speaker 3: that was like you're like, I don't want to leave that,
Speaker 3: Like I want them to know that I have gone
Speaker 3: their message, I am thinking about them, and I will
Speaker 3: just text them that I will be like, hey, I'm
Speaker 3: going to come back to you. I'm just in the
Speaker 3: middle of like a bunch of stuff right now, and
Speaker 3: I want to have the time to respond to this properly.
Speaker 3: And that just buys you more time, but it also
Speaker 3: means that you're going to be much more present when
Speaker 3: it does come time to like respond to them, and
Speaker 3: you can be like, okay, cool, Like I have a
Speaker 3: bit more space right now, I'm going to be able
Speaker 3: to think about my response instead of just like firing
Speaker 3: something off just as a space filler, because I think
Speaker 3: it's like so easy. There's this poll to like fill
Speaker 3: that blank space, like as humans were, like, we don't
Speaker 3: want that uncertainty and that blank space. We want to
Speaker 3: fill it and we want them to know that we
Speaker 3: haven't like discarded them as a friend, we don't hate them,
Speaker 3: like we just want to feel that. But I think
Speaker 3: as I'm getting older, I'm getting more confident in letting
Speaker 3: that space exist a bit more. But yeah, if you
Speaker 3: feel like you do need to, you know, if someone's
Speaker 3: told you something really hard, like just go to them.
Speaker 3: Like I got your message, like I'm here for you
Speaker 3: either like I'll give you a call later or like
Speaker 3: let me get home and respond to this proble Like
Speaker 3: that actually makes it sound like you care more. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So that's what I've been doing a lot recently.
Speaker 4: I love that.
Speaker 1: No, I think that's really helpful. And it's interesting too,
Speaker 1: because you know, I think a lot of this comes
Speaker 1: down to setting boundaries and really tuning into you know,
Speaker 1: what is it that I need, what's going to be
Speaker 1: in service to myself but also for the group. So
Speaker 1: how can someone set boundaries in a group chat without
Speaker 1: worrying that they'll come across as distant or rude?
Speaker 3: I reckon the same thing, right, like, just like really
Speaker 3: transparent communication, and I think that telling the truth is
Speaker 3: always the best option, you know, like people get it,
Speaker 3: and if they don't, then why are you in a
Speaker 3: group chat with them? Leave? So I mean I actually
Speaker 3: probably haven't really tried that in a group chat situation,
Speaker 3: I don't think, because I've been more comfortable letting that
Speaker 3: space exist because other people fill it, you know. But
Speaker 3: I think if we go back to the example at
Speaker 3: the top, where where someone's missing like key life updates,
Speaker 3: like she had this honest conversation like, hey, like this
Speaker 3: is really hard for me, guys, Like I'm really battling
Speaker 3: and it's not because I don't I'm not interested. I'm
Speaker 3: battling because I care so much that it's actually making
Speaker 3: me feel so guilty and eating me up inside. Like
Speaker 3: that's awful to feel like that, and it's helping nobody
Speaker 3: totally so by just like being honest and like actually
Speaker 3: being brave enough to be like, hey, guys, like I'm
Speaker 3: going through a bit at the moment, like I'm here,
Speaker 3: I'm lurking, but I'll jump in, you know, on the
Speaker 3: weekend or like when I'm ready.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I might not be like as cringe as that because
Speaker 3: that's like a weird thing to type, maybe, but you
Speaker 3: will do it in your own voice and you'll find
Speaker 3: a way. But I think that is just more of
Speaker 3: a win win for you, but also for the people
Speaker 3: that you're scared of hurting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting too because I think there's a reality
Speaker 1: where you know you might say the things you'll stand
Speaker 1: up for yourself, and there is a reality where you
Speaker 1: may come across as rude or distant to someone else.
Speaker 1: But I think this is the whole bit around taking responsibility.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, you're not responsible for that other person's
Speaker 1: experience right as well, So it is that world of
Speaker 1: oh okay, cool, this might not come across great, and
Speaker 1: I've got to learn to be okay with that, which
Speaker 1: is a lot, you know, especially for the people pleasers
Speaker 1: out there, as including myself.
Speaker 3: M that's right. I love Rerene Brown's quotes about boundaries.
Speaker 3: There's something around like boundaries or the distance at which
Speaker 3: I can love you and me, and you know, setting
Speaker 3: boundaries more in like this kind of professional setting when
Speaker 3: we're involved in like lots of you know, conversations and
Speaker 3: chats and workloads, like the boundaries that you set at
Speaker 3: work so that you can go home whole. And maybe
Speaker 3: that's something in there about group chats as well. It's like, look,
Speaker 3: I need to be whole for my people at home,
Speaker 3: like that includes me, my dog. You might be single,
Speaker 3: you might have a partner, you might have a whole family.
Speaker 3: You need to remain whole, and boundaries are really the
Speaker 3: only way that you can do that, no matter how
Speaker 3: hard they are to set.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1: So do you feel like if a group chat does
Speaker 1: start to become more tense or negative, do you advise
Speaker 1: someone to address that head on or just step away.
Speaker 3: I've actually never had that experience before. I probably would
Speaker 3: just ghost for a bit. To me, Yes, I don't
Speaker 3: know what I would do if I wanted to leave,
Speaker 3: Like what would you do? Would you be like, hey, guys,
Speaker 3: I'm leaving. Would you announce your exit or would you
Speaker 3: just leave?
Speaker 1: It's funny, right, I had a situation and it wasn't
Speaker 1: that it was negative or tense. It was just a
Speaker 1: group I was a part of that started to feel
Speaker 1: not aligned and I just had a lot going on
Speaker 1: in my life in that season. And I just sent
Speaker 1: a message to the group in like hey, like love
Speaker 1: what we're all like creating here, And I essentially just
Speaker 1: said I just don't have capacity to be in this group,
Speaker 1: but if there's anything you need, please let me know
Speaker 1: when I left. And then I also voice messaged the
Speaker 1: organizer of the group, and I just because again like tone,
Speaker 1: I want them to feel my tone. And yeah, and
Speaker 1: I get it's the whole thing when you've organized a
Speaker 1: group and you've brought people together.
Speaker 2: So I really understand that.
Speaker 1: So I just sent them a voice message, and I'm like, hey, look,
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry. Da da da da. But I don't
Speaker 1: know if they took it that well. They didn't reply,
Speaker 1: whether they got it, I don't know, but I just
Speaker 1: I have to be with Okay. This is a massive
Speaker 1: edge for me because I want everyone to like me.
Speaker 1: But also it was one of those things where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: am I doing this just because I'm not wanting to
Speaker 1: come across as rude, or am I actually going to
Speaker 1: do this to honor where I'm at. So it was
Speaker 1: a massive moment for me. But the thing that happened
Speaker 1: that I was scared of happened, and I just had
Speaker 1: to be okay with that.
Speaker 2: Which is hard.
Speaker 3: I think you did the right thing in the right way.
Speaker 3: Thank you, And I think that you past a shy
Speaker 3: yeah yeah says more about them, I guess totally, because
Speaker 3: I think I would like to think I'm the type
Speaker 3: of person that would get that voice note and be
Speaker 3: like power to you, like, thanks for jumping in, totally
Speaker 3: respect your wanting to leave that to keep your self whole.
Speaker 3: That's what you know. Someone with empathy and compassion for
Speaker 3: other people's experiences like they potentially had no idea, what
Speaker 3: was going on in your life at that time, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean totally.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know it's it's okay.
Speaker 3: Your worst fear happened and you survived.
Speaker 2: That's a thing.
Speaker 1: This is the other side of overthinking as well. It's
Speaker 1: like you overthink all this potential scenarios and then it
Speaker 1: happens and.
Speaker 3: You're like, it's not that bad.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm still here, I'm safe. I made it.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting and it's funny too because it gets
Speaker 1: me thinking about in group chats, how conflict I find
Speaker 1: tends to spiral and it can be hard to resolve
Speaker 1: versus in real life.
Speaker 3: Oh for sure. Yeah. It's like any you know, interpersonal situation,
Speaker 3: Like I've had fights with like you know, past boyfriends, parents,
Speaker 3: my best friend over text, and I'm like, this wouldn't
Speaker 3: happen if we were just maybe even if we got
Speaker 3: on a phone call as opposed to texting.
Speaker 1: It's not is it harder to resolve over text then.
Speaker 3: The phone thing? Right, because it's so like I don't know,
Speaker 3: I guess like in person is also immediate, but at
Speaker 3: least you can like take a breath and be like,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm feeling this or this is my experience,
Speaker 3: Whereas when you're with a text, you want to fill
Speaker 3: that blank space so quickly and like get back to
Speaker 3: them because it's so uncomfortable to sit with those emotions
Speaker 3: that come up when conflict arises, particularly with people that
Speaker 3: you really really care about, and I find it incredibly
Speaker 3: difficult to sit in like silence. So if like I'm
Speaker 3: having a fight and doesn't happen that often, like with
Speaker 3: my mum or my best friend or whatever overtext, like
Speaker 3: I want to instantly reply because I want that experience
Speaker 3: to be over as quick as possible. I do not
Speaker 3: want to see it with those uncomfortable emotions. I absolutely
Speaker 3: hate it. That is something that I'm working on in
Speaker 3: therapy because it's not great to not be able to
Speaker 3: sit with those uncomfory emotions. But yeah, those kind of
Speaker 3: instantaneous replies mean that you're not really coming at it
Speaker 3: from like a regulated self. You're coming at it from
Speaker 3: like a heightened emotional state, and you're not going to
Speaker 3: come up with your best replies. You're probably not going
Speaker 3: to be honest. You're probably gonna come from hurt and
Speaker 3: only make things worse. And it always makes things worse,
Speaker 3: like it never resolves, and then even if you think
Speaker 3: it's resolved, you're like, oh, well they put a full
Speaker 3: stop after that. K. Maybe they're not actually okay, maybe
Speaker 3: they're still resenting me. Like it doesn't just stop after
Speaker 3: the conversation is supposedly resolved on paper. It's like, well,
Speaker 3: I won't know until I see them in person if
Speaker 3: it's actually resolved, So what's the point. You may as
Speaker 3: well have just in person anyway, totally at a hug.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's interesting too because I remember back when
Speaker 1: I was doing workshops for teenage girls, like we would
Speaker 1: talk about social media, and I mean this was before
Speaker 1: the band and everything like that, but it was this
Speaker 1: interesting split where people loved communicating online, especially because it
Speaker 1: gave them space to really think about what they would
Speaker 1: want to say in response. But it's interesting too because
Speaker 1: then we're not setting ourselves up well to develop those
Speaker 1: skills with being in real time and sitting with the
Speaker 1: uncomfy feelings and still needing to reply. It's interesting, like
Speaker 1: there's so much nuance to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's good for us to practice having
Speaker 3: uncomfortable conversations in person, even though it feels really hard.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is hard.
Speaker 1: I really love the story that you talked about at
Speaker 1: the beginning about essentially how it sounds like a healthy
Speaker 1: group chat. And I know, like we've kind of negged
Speaker 1: a lot about like the you know, the negative impacts
Speaker 1: of chats, but there is a lot of good to it, right,
Speaker 1: So I guess my question is, like, what would be
Speaker 1: some of the green flags of a healthy, supportive group chat.
Speaker 3: Probably taking the group chat offline at times, you know,
Speaker 3: like how often you're meeting up in real life, because
Speaker 3: that can be a good measure stick for the depth
Speaker 3: of that connection, and it also deepens the connection every
Speaker 3: time that you're able to get together. I think this generation,
Speaker 3: including us, like we've gotten really good at constant access,
Speaker 3: right and like visibility, but that doesn't necessarily equate to
Speaker 3: intimacy and connection. Those two things are different. They can coexist,
Speaker 3: but it makes it really hard to get that kind
Speaker 3: of depth because it's just physically impossible for us to
Speaker 3: get depth with everyone that we access online and in
Speaker 3: group chats. So I think, like, yeah, a good mans
Speaker 3: stick for that is like could we meet up all
Speaker 3: in person like once a month, or like start a
Speaker 3: book club or something. Because yeah, otherwise it's just I
Speaker 3: don't know, is it just noise? How close are you
Speaker 3: to these people? It? Does it fill your cup? Does
Speaker 3: it make you excited and happy? And I feel like
Speaker 3: I'm not really part of any group chats that I
Speaker 3: wouldn't hang out with in real life unless it's maybe
Speaker 3: like professional like work related or you're in a unique
Speaker 3: group project or whatever like that stuff's kind of non negotiable.
Speaker 3: But I'm just like really big at the moment on that,
Speaker 3: like you said, the pendulum swinging the other way, and yeah,
Speaker 3: getting offline to gather because I think we've become really
Speaker 3: really good at being accessible, but we've completely forgotten how
Speaker 3: to gather in person.
Speaker 4: So true.
Speaker 1: And it feels like as well because I think about that,
Speaker 1: because I think that's a really good markup, being like
Speaker 1: let's actually just connect offline. And it's interesting because we
Speaker 1: are so busy, Like I try to catch up with
Speaker 1: my friends and it's really hard to coordinate like four calendars. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like we're thinking like months away, and then you
Speaker 1: get closer to the catch up and then someone has
Speaker 1: to cancel. So there is that feeling of it's hard
Speaker 1: to connect to people.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's just in my thirties where I'm like it's hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and you're like, you know what, the second
Speaker 3: best option here is the group chat because it keeps
Speaker 3: us close, keeps us SYNCD yeah, And I mean like
Speaker 3: maybe that works really well for you. And then when
Speaker 3: you do get offline, like it's obviously not a weird thing,
Speaker 3: it's like, oh my gosh, we finally got our calendars
Speaker 3: in sync and yay, like this is such an awesome moment.
Speaker 3: But I think the thing about group chats is that,
Speaker 3: like it's really hard to make new memories, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, It's really easy to catch up. And
Speaker 3: I feel like we're a bit of a catch up generation,
Speaker 3: Like we're always just meeting up for coffee or going
Speaker 3: for a walk, and we're not really making new memories because,
Speaker 3: like you said, we're tired, we're financially stretched, we're just
Speaker 3: like overwhelmed by the amount of stuff that's on our plate,
Speaker 3: and so when we do catch up with someone or
Speaker 3: a couple of people, it's more just like, Okay, cool,
Speaker 3: how's your work going, Like did you end up doing
Speaker 3: that thing? How's your partner? What happened here? Like it's
Speaker 3: just catch up, but we're not actually making new memories.
Speaker 3: So it's like, can we go a step beyond the
Speaker 3: group chat, which is more just like yes, catching up
Speaker 3: and then the coffee dates, to like what can we
Speaker 3: do to make new memories so that by the time
Speaker 3: we've completed this the loop or the circle of our
Speaker 3: friendship and we come back to the group chat, we
Speaker 3: have new material to talk about and I love that
Speaker 3: new photos to share, Like we're going to talk about
Speaker 3: how funny it was in the pottery class when like
Speaker 3: that guy's like apron fell off and like whatever, and
Speaker 3: he wasn't wearing anything underneath.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know it is so true.
Speaker 1: It's so true, and it's funny too because I know
Speaker 1: this is something for me that I've observed with friends
Speaker 1: or even for myself where it's like we have the
Speaker 1: offline catch up and we're like, oh my god, that
Speaker 1: was amazing. It's like in the space between we forget, Yes,
Speaker 1: how nourishing and healing it is to have those offline connections.
Speaker 3: It feels like a bit of a chill sometimes, like
Speaker 3: it's easy just stay in one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally after the break. Practical tools to help us
Speaker 1: feel less drained by group chats. So there's something else
Speaker 1: I think I want to talk about, because I know
Speaker 1: we're talking about healthy habits when it comes.
Speaker 4: To group chats.
Speaker 1: How can groups normalize slower replies or even silence without
Speaker 1: taking it personally.
Speaker 3: I think someone just has to set the tone, yes,
Speaker 3: to be the one that does that. But I don't
Speaker 3: think that necessarily means that we have to punish people
Speaker 3: for those instant replies, because you know, like someone might
Speaker 3: be breastfeeding and they're on their phone and they're like boom,
Speaker 3: instant replies. Like that person in that season of their
Speaker 3: life is going to be a lot more maybe on
Speaker 3: their phone than someone who's like working full time, you know.
Speaker 3: So it's just like depends where people are at in
Speaker 3: their lives, but also like mentally and also how their
Speaker 3: brain works. Like some people just like to get it
Speaker 3: off their to do list and be like boom, okay, cool,
Speaker 3: I've replied. I can tick that off and like yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, go back to yeah, or I have FOMO
Speaker 3: and I need to open that and I need to
Speaker 3: reply because they've seen that I've seen it, So it's yeah,
Speaker 3: I think we have to just be open to both
Speaker 3: existing at once and not judging each other for doing
Speaker 3: either of those options.
Speaker 1: I really like that when you said not judging each
Speaker 1: other because I think naturally, I know, for me, I
Speaker 1: can look at the way someone's replying in a group chat,
Speaker 1: like I feel this subconscious expectation of oh shit, I
Speaker 1: should reply straight away too, or I feel like, because
Speaker 1: they're replying fast, I should be replying fast. And it's
Speaker 1: just we're walking around with these expectations that no one
Speaker 1: has said. You've actually just created in your mind where
Speaker 1: I need to show up like this or X has
Speaker 1: got to think of this. Yeah, and it's just so funny, yeah, exhausting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't need to do that anymore.
Speaker 3: No, we really don't. And people are allowed to change
Speaker 3: as well, you know, like they might be really on
Speaker 3: their phone for a couple months and then they might
Speaker 3: be like, I need to just like throw that thing
Speaker 3: on the other side of the room, and then they're
Speaker 3: like they ghost for a couple months. But that doesn't
Speaker 3: mean that they don't like you. That just means that
Speaker 3: they're doing something different with their time, and that's okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, And I think that's really the essence of
Speaker 1: a group chat. The whole point of gathering in a
Speaker 1: group is that we are all different, Yeah, and it's
Speaker 1: around celebrating our differences in a way that you know,
Speaker 1: ensure safety and respect and it meets everyone with where
Speaker 1: they're at and like there's understanding yeah as well, exactly.
Speaker 3: Like imagine if there was a group tyd of ten
Speaker 3: people who were all the exact same person and like
Speaker 3: replied instantly like you just have this pin pink ping,
Speaker 3: you'd run out of things to talk about. Yeah, Like
Speaker 3: that would not be a fruitful conversation. That wouldn't be
Speaker 3: a conversation. That would just be like just data flying
Speaker 3: around that means nothing has no meaning.
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: What do you think is some of the red flags
Speaker 1: that a group chat is becoming more draining or unhealthy?
Speaker 4: Though?
Speaker 3: I think if it is becoming draining, that is a
Speaker 3: red flag, right. I think it's just like how does
Speaker 3: it make you feel? But I don't think that necessarily
Speaker 3: has to be like okay, call it, get out. It's
Speaker 3: like how often does it make you feel like that?
Speaker 3: Maybe it's something that you can change in your own
Speaker 3: life and you can be like, okay, cool, I'm not
Speaker 3: going to touch that until like Friday afternoon, when I
Speaker 3: know I'm going to have space to like respond to
Speaker 3: all of my notifications, and that change might be enough
Speaker 3: to make the red flags disappear. Like maybe it's something
Speaker 3: that like with a couple of lifestyle changes, you can
Speaker 3: like fix and you can be like, Okay, great, now
Speaker 3: I can have both. I can have my space and
Speaker 3: my time and I can also respond to the people
Speaker 3: I care about and this works really well. But yeah,
Speaker 3: if it's not something that you can do with a
Speaker 3: couple of changes on your end, and like there's stuff
Speaker 3: happening in the group chat in terms of the actual
Speaker 3: content that's like oh this content is draining, then do
Speaker 3: what you did and just be like, hey, this is
Speaker 3: like not like none of this is really serving me.
Speaker 3: I don't feel good, Like it just doesn't feel good
Speaker 3: in my tummy, like in my gut. And it's okay
Speaker 3: to want something different for my time because maybe by
Speaker 3: not being in this group chat, I would have time
Speaker 3: to be in a different group chat that would like
Speaker 3: just fill me up, or I would learn all these
Speaker 3: new things or connect with these really interesting people that
Speaker 3: I want to develop more intimacy with. So yeah, we
Speaker 3: just have to remember that like our time and our
Speaker 3: energy is a finite resource, Like we cannot just make
Speaker 3: new time and make new energy. So it's like, how
Speaker 3: do you want to spend that?
Speaker 4: That's so true, very wise words.
Speaker 3: I love it. I do a lot of overthinking, as
Speaker 3: you can tell.
Speaker 1: So if you could change the unwritten rules to group chats,
Speaker 1: like what would you change first?
Speaker 3: I would just scrap the rules altogether. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: it's like you said, we've signed this weird social contract
Speaker 3: with all these rules, and like who made them? Someone
Speaker 3: really who had no life, you know, like someone who
Speaker 3: doesn't understand the intricacies of what it's like to be
Speaker 3: a human, messy being, you know, who goes through different seasons,
Speaker 3: maybe all in the space of one month, you know,
Speaker 3: like when I'm on my period, I don't want to
Speaker 3: talk to anyone Like that's yeah, it's so many different
Speaker 3: factors go into how we operate as human beings, let
Speaker 3: alone into group chats. And at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: it should be something that is additive to your life
Speaker 3: in a really positive way, not something that takes over
Speaker 3: your life or detracts from your life. And I think
Speaker 3: you just got to have confidence in your empathy as
Speaker 3: a human bean, your compassion for others, your understanding that no,
Speaker 3: you know what, I am self aware enough to know that, Like,
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I'm not trying to
Speaker 3: devout you anyone's participation or conversations. But I, at the
Speaker 3: same time also really need to respect my finite resources.
Speaker 3: And I think those two things can be true at
Speaker 3: once as long as you're surrounded by the right kind
Speaker 3: of group of people who understand you, and even if
Speaker 3: they don't know you that well, if you're part of
Speaker 3: some you know, bigger group like the one you were
Speaker 3: talking about, like at least they have compassion for other
Speaker 3: human beings, Like they don't need to know your full
Speaker 3: story to know that they don't know your full story,
Speaker 3: you know. So, yeah, that is an ideal world. Of course,
Speaker 3: you're going to come up with all these like gray
Speaker 3: areas of like, oh, this is a lot trickier than
Speaker 3: it being that simple. Yeah, but I think we just
Speaker 3: have to at the end of the day, like we're
Speaker 3: all just trying to survive. And so it's not the
Speaker 3: worst thing in the world if you have to leave
Speaker 3: a group chat and then the owner of that group
Speaker 3: chat doesn't respond to you because they're pissed off that
Speaker 3: you left, Like that's not the worst thing in the world.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is true.
Speaker 1: It's really trying to get that perspective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 4: I agree.
Speaker 3: It feels so big, doesn't it, especially when you're young,
Speaker 3: like that your device and your social situations and dynamics
Speaker 3: are the be all and end all, like, whereas at
Speaker 3: least you and I now can have that perspective and
Speaker 3: that self confidence and awareness to be like, no, you
Speaker 3: know what, it's it's not serving me. And maybe you
Speaker 3: wouldn't have done that fifteen years ago. Yeah, me neither.
Speaker 3: So it just would be really nice if we could
Speaker 3: just like instill that confidence in young women to be like,
Speaker 3: you have to just keep yourself safe and whole first,
Speaker 3: you don't owe anything to anyone. You can still be
Speaker 3: a kind and compassionate person while setting those boundaries.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's so true.
Speaker 1: So do you feel like we know too many people?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think that is the case, and it's not normal. No,
Speaker 3: it's not normal. And like, evolution wise, I don't think
Speaker 3: we have become these mass data processes like we were
Speaker 3: never supposed to see this many other villagers. It's like, oh,
Speaker 3: my goodness, Like we're only supposed to see, like, what
Speaker 3: two hundred people. We can only remember a certain amount
Speaker 3: of people's faces and names, their stories. It's too much
Speaker 3: for us to be processing. Every single day. When we're
Speaker 3: scrolling on social media, we're seeing people jump into group
Speaker 3: chats like it is just basically digital and informational overwhelmed.
Speaker 3: It's too much data.
Speaker 1: So I know that we've focused a lot on friend
Speaker 1: group chats, but I want to talk about family group
Speaker 1: chats because you know, technically, I feel there's generational differences there.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and there's also tone and the way that
Speaker 1: they communicate, like it can get quite.
Speaker 3: You know, challenging, hmm, very challenging. You've got like a
Speaker 3: difference in pace, Like I feel like my parents don't
Speaker 3: pick up the phone as much as I would to
Speaker 3: check notifications. My dad maybe like once a week, as
Speaker 3: opposed to my mom who's like maybe once a day. No,
Speaker 3: probably a bit more than that, because I'm the most
Speaker 3: important person in their life course. But you've also got
Speaker 3: a difference in sense of humor. They don't understand the
Speaker 3: gifts and the memes, they don't know how to send
Speaker 3: photos maybe, And then also as well, like the difference
Speaker 3: in tone as well, like my dad will respond like
Speaker 3: k full stop and it's like, oh my god, I
Speaker 3: would never I would never have the audacity to send
Speaker 3: anyone that, let alone my daughter. And then when you
Speaker 3: bring all those dynamics together with that like intergenerational kind
Speaker 3: of grouping, maybe there's a bit of anticipatory anxiety around
Speaker 3: like how that generation will react to certain things, whether
Speaker 3: they're going to have to be filled in once a
Speaker 3: week when they do look at that group chat. It's
Speaker 3: just like makes the dynamics a lot more difficult. But
Speaker 3: that's what we do for the people we love, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Gotta love those dynamic family chats.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And imagine like a family argument going down in
Speaker 3: one of those that would be that would be even harder,
Speaker 3: that would be brutal.
Speaker 2: Oh dis mute it ghost.
Speaker 1: So how do we stay author and tick online as
Speaker 1: well as offline?
Speaker 3: I reckon it's just kind of like reading the room
Speaker 3: similar to being in person. Yes, it's harder, and we've
Speaker 3: talked about the detriments of that, but kind of thinking like, Okay, well,
Speaker 3: I'm participating in this social situation with a bunch of
Speaker 3: different personalities, like how would I behave offline? Would I
Speaker 3: steal the conversation away to myself and like constantly just talk,
Speaker 3: or would I give space for other people to contribute
Speaker 3: their own stories. And then maybe there's like sensitivities too
Speaker 3: around like different life milestones, Like maybe there's like a
Speaker 3: pregnancy and someone's going through IVF at the same time,
Speaker 3: it's like, how do you announce that while also being
Speaker 3: sensitive to the fact that someone is going through something difficult,
Speaker 3: Like there's so much nuance there, And I think like
Speaker 3: as long as you're self aware enough and compassionate enough
Speaker 3: to like practice ways to do that and maybe like
Speaker 3: withholding some sort of information maybe or language like just
Speaker 3: being maybe a little bit more self editing in a
Speaker 3: good way that can make other people in that group
Speaker 3: chat feel more comfortable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, whether it's online or offline, everything is building
Speaker 1: your own awareness. Like there's the like intra personal, like
Speaker 1: you know, within ourselves, and then there's the inter personal
Speaker 1: as well, like reading the others being aware of what's
Speaker 1: going on for the other person. So if I feel
Speaker 1: like it should be the same, ye, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. And you will get it wrong sometimes
Speaker 3: mostly in the group chat situation because it's a lot
Speaker 3: harder to get it right. Yeah, but you can resolve that,
Speaker 3: like pick up the phone or see them in person
Speaker 3: and give them a hug or just yeah, really be
Speaker 3: honest and try and just do what you normally do
Speaker 3: in real life in terms of reading the situation and
Speaker 3: caring for the people that you care about.
Speaker 1: And I guess, like my last question would be, there's
Speaker 1: kind of two types of people listening, right, You've got
Speaker 1: people who are like owner of group chats and then
Speaker 1: who are participants in group chats. Like, what's one small
Speaker 1: habit people could start today to make their group chats
Speaker 1: feel better and not worse.
Speaker 3: Maybe something I've seen like on socials and I have
Speaker 3: someone who works with me who does this. They do
Speaker 3: like a weekly sink where they all send in like
Speaker 3: a minute long voice note because you get that like
Speaker 3: tone and emotion and it's not like you're getting them
Speaker 3: sporadically throughout the week and you've got to drop everything
Speaker 3: and listen to these voice notes. It's like cool, every
Speaker 3: Sunday afternoon, we all do a week rap and we
Speaker 3: share like our highs and our lows, and it can
Speaker 3: only be like max like sixty seconds or whatever, like
Speaker 3: a bit of a challenge and we all just listen
Speaker 3: to each other's kind of run down on where we're at.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like something simple like that. So it's like, okay,
Speaker 3: cool if at the very least you just jump on
Speaker 3: on a Sunday afternoon, maybe not even every week, and
Speaker 3: you just listen to everyone's rundown and you participate by
Speaker 3: giving yours, Like I feel like that's something I personally
Speaker 3: would like to do. I love little rituals, Like rituals
Speaker 3: feel like they develop meaning quicker because it can become
Speaker 3: like a nice little tradition. There's like some nice little
Speaker 3: expectations around it in terms of like cool, like we're
Speaker 3: showing up for this amount of time, like everyone knows
Speaker 3: their role within that, and it can feel like a
Speaker 3: deeper presence than if it's just like firing off like
Speaker 3: random little shorts like snapshots like all week round, Like yes,
Speaker 3: you might have that as well, but at least you know,
Speaker 3: like at the end of the week, like cool, I'm
Speaker 3: saving I'm saving this really funny story that happened at
Speaker 3: work for my week rap because I need them to
Speaker 3: hear the emotion in my voice.
Speaker 1: I really love that's it, and I really love how
Speaker 1: intentional and simple.
Speaker 4: Yeah it is as well. I really like that.
Speaker 2: Do you want a feel though.
Speaker 1: With the ritual side that it feels like you need
Speaker 1: to keep up?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that could be. That could definitely be something. But
Speaker 3: I feel like maybe you don't have to do it
Speaker 3: every week. Maybe it's like just it's a bonus when
Speaker 3: everyone does more special And.
Speaker 1: I guess in a way, that's another extra tip for
Speaker 1: anyone that is listening that is an organizer in a chat,
Speaker 1: being like, cool, these are the expectations, and we understand
Speaker 1: life happens, should happens. I'm not going to hold you
Speaker 1: against it. I'm not going to send you a personal
Speaker 1: homework and being like I haven'tive machine. Yeah yeah, yeah literally,
Speaker 1: So it's just like everyone needs to relax a little
Speaker 1: bit more and have a bit more fun.
Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah. It should feel like something you want to
Speaker 3: participate in or something you have to in an ideal world.
Speaker 3: Yeah not all the time. Yeah yeah, definitely. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: thank you so much, Millie.
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed unpacking group chats with you, and I
Speaker 1: just feel like you are the person to be in
Speaker 1: the seat to tell us everything about how we can
Speaker 1: have healthier group chats.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, And I just love the idea of
Speaker 3: like us learning how to gather again. And I think, yes,
Speaker 3: we can do that to an extent on group chats.
Speaker 3: But I think like if we can, when we can
Speaker 3: in the ways that we can, they don't have to
Speaker 3: be expensive or fancy. They can just be really simple.
Speaker 3: They can be group ad mid nights or something I
Speaker 3: run is a social volunteering program where we all just
Speaker 3: get together and you know, make things and donate things
Speaker 3: to charities. Like it doesn't have to look like anything fancy,
Speaker 3: like a restaurant dinner with your girlfriends. It can just
Speaker 3: be like, oh, let's all go over and clean out
Speaker 3: your closet together and like laugh about all the old
Speaker 3: clothes that you know, we've had since we were in
Speaker 3: high school. Yeah, just togetherness, like practicing togetherness. Like, yes,
Speaker 3: group chats can be a great place to facilitate that
Speaker 3: in the absence of being together. At least it's a
Speaker 3: little bit of togetherness. But like, yeah, when we can
Speaker 3: and how we can, moving that offline would be would
Speaker 3: be amazing.
Speaker 4: Going back to the ancient ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah, love, it's so ancient. Yeah, but haha. Mamma Mia
Speaker 3: acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that
Speaker 3: this podcast is recorded on.