WEBVTT - A Baby, A Cat And A Late Onset Psychopath 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.727 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:23.767 --> 0:00:27.167 Mamma Mia out Loud and to our Friday's show where 0:00:27.207 --> 0:00:29.927 we take a break from the news cycle and breathe out. 0:00:32.007 --> 0:00:35.487 That was a SMR. Someone's going, Jesse, you never do it. 0:00:35.567 --> 0:00:37.407 I hate ASMR. It makes me feel sick. 0:00:37.527 --> 0:00:40.847 Okay, okay, fair enough, don't know good vibes. 0:00:40.607 --> 0:00:43.367 From jaure cracking start for a Friday. 0:00:43.687 --> 0:00:48.687 Today is Friday, the sixteenth of August, And I'm Holly Wainwright. 0:00:48.407 --> 0:00:50.567 I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:50.607 --> 0:00:53.047 And on Today's show, if cats and dogs and rats 0:00:53.047 --> 0:00:55.647 and hamsters are our fur babies, what happens to them 0:00:55.647 --> 0:01:00.047 when human babies enter the picture? And a podcast worth 0:01:00.087 --> 0:01:05.287 binging And an Australian icon whose midlife vulnerability rocks me. Yes, 0:01:05.407 --> 0:01:07.927 It's recommendation time and best of Worst of the Week 0:01:07.967 --> 0:01:11.287 include Me as Logis, Jesse Is Margarita's I'm the best 0:01:11.287 --> 0:01:11.687 piece of. 0:01:11.647 --> 0:01:13.247 Advice I've had in forever. 0:01:13.767 --> 0:01:15.367 But first mea Friedman. 0:01:15.807 --> 0:01:18.367 If you are going away this weekend or in fact, ever, 0:01:18.807 --> 0:01:22.127 and it involves an airport and a suitcase. Don't tie 0:01:22.127 --> 0:01:25.727 a ribbon around the handle. Oh, in case you missed it, 0:01:26.127 --> 0:01:28.927 Muma Mia spoke to Mike Harvey, who is the managing 0:01:28.967 --> 0:01:32.127 director at First Move International. I don't even know what 0:01:32.127 --> 0:01:36.167 that is, but he explained why attaching a ribbon to suitcase, 0:01:36.207 --> 0:01:38.887 which many of us, including me do to help you 0:01:38.967 --> 0:01:41.407 not pick up the wrong bag off the carousel, which 0:01:41.407 --> 0:01:45.287 I have also done more than once. If you attach 0:01:45.287 --> 0:01:48.207 a ribbon, it can actually interfere with the scanning process 0:01:48.247 --> 0:01:52.207 in the luggage hall. So if the ribbon causes issues 0:01:52.247 --> 0:01:56.127 during scanning, your bag may need to be manually processed, 0:01:56.127 --> 0:01:59.167 which can cause delays, or it might miss the flight altogether. 0:01:59.447 --> 0:02:01.407 So you know her when sometimes you bag doesn't show up, 0:02:01.407 --> 0:02:03.607 it's probably maybe a ribbon, your ribbon. 0:02:03.647 --> 0:02:05.447 See, I never have a ribbon, and my bag's always 0:02:05.447 --> 0:02:05.927 shown up. 0:02:06.367 --> 0:02:08.567 So there, have you taken the wrong bag. 0:02:08.407 --> 0:02:11.247 Before I have? So I was going to say, I've 0:02:11.247 --> 0:02:12.927 never done a ribbon, I've never done a tag. I've 0:02:12.927 --> 0:02:15.967 never done anything. And I just buy the cheapest luggage 0:02:15.967 --> 0:02:18.847 I can, which happens to be the same luggage as 0:02:18.927 --> 0:02:22.047 everyone else. And I'm like, who needs a ribbon. I'm 0:02:22.087 --> 0:02:24.007 not an idiot anyway. I've taken the wrong bag home, 0:02:24.127 --> 0:02:25.927 opened it gone, these are not my things, and got 0:02:26.167 --> 0:02:29.007 very angry call from the airport as I had ruined 0:02:29.047 --> 0:02:31.407 someone's day. I don't like I need my stuff, and 0:02:31.447 --> 0:02:32.567 I was like, I'll be right there. 0:02:32.807 --> 0:02:35.167 So what I do is that my whole bag is 0:02:35.207 --> 0:02:37.967 a ribbon. I just buy a bag in the most 0:02:38.087 --> 0:02:40.647 lurid color. Then you can imagine I've got a hot 0:02:40.647 --> 0:02:41.327 pink suitcase. 0:02:41.647 --> 0:02:44.927 Oh of course, Friedman, of you, I like it. I'm 0:02:44.967 --> 0:02:49.727 bringing trouble today. It's Friday, and I'm feeling feisty. I 0:02:49.727 --> 0:02:53.607 would like to bring the group's attention to an article 0:02:53.687 --> 0:02:56.327 in the cut from New York Magazine by a woman 0:02:56.607 --> 0:02:59.967 who had possibly the best reason ever for remaining anonymous. 0:03:00.007 --> 0:03:03.727 While writing on the internet. She is complaining about her cat, 0:03:04.167 --> 0:03:08.007 not only complaining, actually, but confessing. The article is called 0:03:08.127 --> 0:03:10.727 why Did I Stop loving my cat when I had 0:03:10.727 --> 0:03:13.807 a baby, and it comes with an editor's note. The 0:03:13.967 --> 0:03:17.007 editor's note reads, this story is part of a New 0:03:17.087 --> 0:03:21.407 York Magazine exploration of the ethics of pet ownership, sharing 0:03:21.447 --> 0:03:23.927 a variety of points of view on whether we're equipped 0:03:23.927 --> 0:03:26.687 to care for the animals in our homes. The magazine 0:03:26.687 --> 0:03:30.767 confirmed the welfare of this cat prior to publication. 0:03:31.967 --> 0:03:33.767 Oh I was going to say you sounds so boring, 0:03:33.807 --> 0:03:35.607 but I mean now, oh my god, it's so good. 0:03:35.967 --> 0:03:38.287 As you might gather from the title, the woman in 0:03:38.367 --> 0:03:41.727 question has a baby and a cat, and the cat 0:03:41.967 --> 0:03:46.447 came first. She writes in blisteringly honest detail about how 0:03:46.527 --> 0:03:50.247 since the baby arrived, she not only is less interested 0:03:50.287 --> 0:03:53.647 in Lucky, her beloved pussy cat, but that she actively 0:03:53.727 --> 0:03:57.687 resents her. She writes about being tempted but not actually 0:03:57.767 --> 0:04:01.487 acting on it to kick said cat. She confesses to 0:04:01.607 --> 0:04:04.847 leaving the window open so that Lucky might escape, and 0:04:04.927 --> 0:04:07.887 she admits to forgetting to leave Lucky any water, so 0:04:07.927 --> 0:04:09.807 she found the poor prince all over the toilet where 0:04:09.807 --> 0:04:12.847 he was desperately drinking from the bowl. Forgetting to groom her, 0:04:13.127 --> 0:04:15.847 forgetting to feed her anything but the most basic of foods. 0:04:15.927 --> 0:04:19.607 She've spoke to lots of different pet owners who had babies, 0:04:19.807 --> 0:04:22.247 and she writes, like me, none of the women I 0:04:22.287 --> 0:04:25.247 spoke with had intentionally obtained her pet to use the 0:04:25.287 --> 0:04:28.687 animal as training wheels for a baby. None would think 0:04:28.727 --> 0:04:32.287 of seeing her pet in such frostily instrumental terms. They 0:04:32.367 --> 0:04:34.727 got their pets for all the usual sweet reasons for 0:04:34.807 --> 0:04:38.567 companionship to offer a safe home. Just because a pet 0:04:38.647 --> 0:04:41.527 can function as a prototype baby doesn't mean it must 0:04:41.647 --> 0:04:44.887 or that it's only that. But let's grant that that happens. 0:04:45.287 --> 0:04:45.807 You had a. 0:04:45.727 --> 0:04:48.247 Pet who was your baby, and now you have a 0:04:48.247 --> 0:04:51.207 baby who is your baby. Does that mean the pet 0:04:51.327 --> 0:04:53.967 is sentenced to irrelevance. I want to talk about the 0:04:54.007 --> 0:04:56.207 ethics and the drivers of our love for pets, but 0:04:56.287 --> 0:04:59.487 first I need to be mischievous and ask my co host, 0:04:59.567 --> 0:05:03.967 Jesse Stevens, didn't you say something quite similar to this 0:05:04.687 --> 0:05:06.367 about your beloved dog Chili. 0:05:06.607 --> 0:05:09.487 I resent the term similar, because I know I ever 0:05:09.767 --> 0:05:13.607 expressed a will to kick my dog or leave the 0:05:13.647 --> 0:05:17.647 doors open. I was a little bit horrified, to be 0:05:17.727 --> 0:05:20.687 completely honest, by some of the things I read in 0:05:20.727 --> 0:05:24.327 that article. But what I did say was that it 0:05:25.087 --> 0:05:29.287 surprised me in the aftermath, in that postpartum period, particularly 0:05:29.327 --> 0:05:31.167 sort of three or four months after having a baby, 0:05:31.847 --> 0:05:34.247 my response to my dog, because what happened. I'm not 0:05:34.287 --> 0:05:36.367 sure if I told this story, but we got home 0:05:36.487 --> 0:05:38.727 from hospital and Luca had the car seat and he 0:05:38.727 --> 0:05:41.287 put the car seat down on the floor in our house, 0:05:41.967 --> 0:05:45.367 and I felt a sensation I have never felt before, 0:05:45.407 --> 0:05:47.287 which was sheer terror. 0:05:47.647 --> 0:05:48.487 In the car seat. Yeah. 0:05:48.527 --> 0:05:50.407 Yeah, So, like, what do you call it when it's 0:05:50.727 --> 0:05:52.247 sure the capsule the cap I thought. 0:05:52.087 --> 0:05:54.007 It meant you just brought an empty capsule to just 0:05:54.047 --> 0:05:55.767 try out what it looked like in your loundry. 0:05:55.847 --> 0:05:57.727 Probably should have. Yeah, but the baby was in the 0:05:57.767 --> 0:06:00.487 cabcake and he put the capsule down, and the dog 0:06:00.567 --> 0:06:01.687 was on the other side of the room. But I 0:06:01.767 --> 0:06:05.647 felt just sheer terror, and I saw in my mind's eye, 0:06:05.687 --> 0:06:08.287 I was like, the dog attacks the baby. It was 0:06:08.327 --> 0:06:11.007 all playing out. Had a real visceral response, and from 0:06:11.047 --> 0:06:13.687 there it's not that I didn't love my dog. I 0:06:13.687 --> 0:06:16.367 always loved my dog. But I became a little bit scared. 0:06:16.527 --> 0:06:21.487 I became almost like, very vigilant of keeping the two apart. 0:06:22.287 --> 0:06:26.487 And since speaking to some healthcare workers and you know, 0:06:26.487 --> 0:06:28.847 people who work in hospitals, they've said that is very 0:06:28.887 --> 0:06:32.727 sensible because they have seen some horrific instincts, and it is. 0:06:32.847 --> 0:06:35.127 It was an instinct. And I've had a lot of 0:06:35.207 --> 0:06:38.127 friends say this as well, that whereas before they would 0:06:38.167 --> 0:06:40.367 be on the floor playing with the dog friendless hours, 0:06:40.447 --> 0:06:42.487 dog slept in the bed, all of those things. Dog 0:06:42.527 --> 0:06:44.887 can't sleep in the bed when you're up feeding overnight, 0:06:44.927 --> 0:06:46.087 like it just can't be done. 0:06:47.047 --> 0:06:49.807 Lower in the leaderboard. Yeah, the relationship has shifted. 0:06:49.887 --> 0:06:52.407 The relationship shifted, And so I spoke about it on 0:06:52.687 --> 0:06:54.807 the podcast and I said it it made me sad. 0:06:55.327 --> 0:06:59.607 That was a mistake, and I it was my worst 0:06:59.607 --> 0:07:01.447 of the week, right, and that I moved on with 0:07:01.487 --> 0:07:04.567 my life and continued walking, feeding and watering my dog 0:07:05.087 --> 0:07:09.007 you and loving my dog unconditionally. And then somewhere in 0:07:09.047 --> 0:07:12.527 the hours of the internet, a rumor started that I 0:07:12.607 --> 0:07:17.127 had rehomed and or put down my dog, which I 0:07:17.247 --> 0:07:21.647 learned through multiple podcast reviews that said on our shows, 0:07:21.927 --> 0:07:25.687 on our show on canceled saying, oh, someone called the RSPCA. 0:07:26.127 --> 0:07:28.327 If someone called the RSPCA and they turned up to 0:07:28.367 --> 0:07:30.447 my home, oh dear, they would find my dog on 0:07:30.567 --> 0:07:33.007 her throne in the biggest bed you've ever seen, with 0:07:33.047 --> 0:07:34.727 a very shiny coat, living her. 0:07:34.687 --> 0:07:38.367 Best life, almost her best life, almost wildly displaced as 0:07:39.087 --> 0:07:41.727 top of the leaderboard exactly, people who get your love 0:07:41.727 --> 0:07:42.247 in your house. 0:07:42.247 --> 0:07:45.447 But but I think that the idea that when a 0:07:45.487 --> 0:07:48.527 baby comes along, and it's funny, right, because another worst 0:07:48.527 --> 0:07:50.567 of the week that I had was about how I 0:07:50.567 --> 0:07:52.807 felt like I wasn't giving enough time and energy to 0:07:52.927 --> 0:07:56.767 my popuas dementia, to my cousin, who I've always cared for. 0:07:57.167 --> 0:08:01.607 That caring or the nurturing muscle is finite, It's not endless. 0:08:01.607 --> 0:08:04.247 There are only so many hours in a day, and 0:08:04.847 --> 0:08:08.687 when you are physically attached to a baby, you can't 0:08:08.927 --> 0:08:11.327 have the dog on your lap all day. You just can't. 0:08:11.607 --> 0:08:14.487 No, But you are talking about very practical things, and 0:08:14.527 --> 0:08:16.887 you're very sensible, and you're right one hundred percent. But 0:08:16.927 --> 0:08:19.807 there's something else going on here, and it's why we 0:08:19.847 --> 0:08:23.527 get pets in the first place, right, Because what this 0:08:23.687 --> 0:08:26.087 story was about, and what lots and lots of pieces 0:08:26.087 --> 0:08:28.287 that are about this very things about, is that very 0:08:28.287 --> 0:08:30.967 often people get pets before they have babies, and those 0:08:30.967 --> 0:08:33.247 pets are their babies. As she says in this right, 0:08:34.047 --> 0:08:37.407 we've repositioned the place of pets in our lives for 0:08:37.487 --> 0:08:40.647 lots of different reasons. I think we call them fur babies. 0:08:40.727 --> 0:08:43.007 You know, there was not everybody does, no, no, of course not. 0:08:44.207 --> 0:08:47.607 But culturally is what I'm talking about. Like, culturally we 0:08:47.647 --> 0:08:50.567 have elevated pets to their fur babies. 0:08:51.647 --> 0:08:52.207 Eat their food. 0:08:52.207 --> 0:08:54.367 You've seen those ads for the dog and the person's 0:08:54.407 --> 0:08:57.247 eating it, and there's like, now there's a fragrance that 0:08:57.327 --> 0:08:58.367 you can buy for your dog. 0:08:58.447 --> 0:09:00.687 I took my dogs to a psychiatr. 0:09:00.207 --> 0:09:05.887 Dog psychiatry. There are dog hotels. Dog like we have 0:09:06.127 --> 0:09:08.327 elevated the status of our pets, and like the three 0:09:08.367 --> 0:09:10.527 of us are all dog people and we all love 0:09:10.567 --> 0:09:15.127 our dogs enormously. But there is a very real thing 0:09:15.287 --> 0:09:18.567 at play here. And I've heard you describe it before, Jesse, 0:09:18.767 --> 0:09:21.047 as like you need a place to put your nurture 0:09:21.647 --> 0:09:23.727 because I didn't have a dog before I had a kid. 0:09:23.927 --> 0:09:25.207 I mean I had one when I was growing up. 0:09:25.287 --> 0:09:27.207 I think we got our family dog at a perfect 0:09:27.207 --> 0:09:29.167 time for me, and that it was just as I 0:09:29.207 --> 0:09:31.687 was coming out of that really cuddly nurtury thing with 0:09:31.767 --> 0:09:34.487 my kids because they're older, and now I've replaced the 0:09:34.487 --> 0:09:36.687 baby stage with my popul Like I could cuddle her 0:09:36.727 --> 0:09:38.487 all day long and she always likes to see me, 0:09:38.567 --> 0:09:41.167 and she's never going ooh, I'm looking at her phone. Like, 0:09:41.247 --> 0:09:45.607 so I get an emotional nurturing need met by my 0:09:45.807 --> 0:09:49.287 dog that probably for years there I was getting from 0:09:49.287 --> 0:09:50.007 my little kids. 0:09:50.327 --> 0:09:53.847 We do have an instinct to care for things that 0:09:54.207 --> 0:09:56.527 need to be cared for. Right, And just because you 0:09:56.927 --> 0:09:58.887 love dogs or love cats, I love your pets doesn't 0:09:58.927 --> 0:10:01.487 mean that it's a maternal paternal thing. I think that 0:10:01.527 --> 0:10:03.927 there are people who are brilliant pet owners who don't 0:10:04.047 --> 0:10:08.207 have any interesting kids, for example. But there's something about 0:10:08.247 --> 0:10:11.807 the nurturing that's very good for us. And also the 0:10:11.847 --> 0:10:15.487 physical touch element. Right parents talk about like being touched 0:10:15.527 --> 0:10:18.527 out and feeling like there's too much of that. I 0:10:18.567 --> 0:10:22.727 wonder if it is for people who feel like that's 0:10:22.807 --> 0:10:26.327 missing from their life, like something to love more than 0:10:26.367 --> 0:10:31.447 themselves and that will unconditionally love you back. I think 0:10:31.487 --> 0:10:34.247 that is sort of feeling that void for a lot 0:10:34.287 --> 0:10:34.607 of us. 0:10:34.927 --> 0:10:38.247 Yeah, I mean there's that saying. If you have teenagers 0:10:38.247 --> 0:10:39.807 and you want someone to be happy to see you 0:10:39.847 --> 0:10:42.487 when you get home, get a dog. And I think 0:10:42.527 --> 0:10:45.367 there can be eras not just related to whether you 0:10:45.367 --> 0:10:48.407 have kids or not and how all those kids are, 0:10:48.567 --> 0:10:50.967 but just times in your life. I mean, we saw 0:10:50.967 --> 0:10:53.767 a lot of people get dogs, myself included, or get 0:10:53.767 --> 0:10:56.847 pets during COVID during lockdown when we were home all 0:10:56.887 --> 0:10:59.807 the time, and when those dogs and cats got a 0:10:59.807 --> 0:11:02.367 lot of love and a lot of time and a 0:11:02.367 --> 0:11:04.967 lot of attention because we had nowhere else to put 0:11:05.007 --> 0:11:06.847 any of that stuff. But then when we had to 0:11:06.887 --> 0:11:08.567 go back to work or we could travel again, and 0:11:08.607 --> 0:11:11.447 all of those things, it's no wonder we've got a 0:11:11.487 --> 0:11:15.287 generation of really anxious, confused dogs who were like, hang on, 0:11:15.647 --> 0:11:18.087 weren't we in love? What happened? We used to hang 0:11:18.127 --> 0:11:21.087 out all the time. And I think there are just 0:11:21.167 --> 0:11:24.727 times in your life where your dog is center stage 0:11:24.807 --> 0:11:27.647 or your cat, and times when they're not. And I mean, 0:11:27.967 --> 0:11:31.807 at its worst, some people are horrendous and just go 0:11:31.847 --> 0:11:35.567 and dump them. And thank Heavens for dog shelters, And 0:11:35.727 --> 0:11:37.847 if anyone wants to get a pet, please go and 0:11:37.967 --> 0:11:40.047 look at a pet shelter, because tens of thousands of 0:11:40.087 --> 0:11:43.047 dogs and cats that are beautiful get put down every 0:11:43.127 --> 0:11:46.167 day because someone either couldn't look after them anymore. I 0:11:46.247 --> 0:11:48.287 just didn't want to look after them anymore. 0:11:48.487 --> 0:11:51.607 That makes me so sad, right, Like it really doesn't 0:11:51.647 --> 0:11:54.527 be tragic. I was reading a different story about a 0:11:54.567 --> 0:11:56.847 woman who had three dogs and then she had two 0:11:56.967 --> 0:11:59.327 kids come along, and she basically went, oh my goodness, 0:11:59.327 --> 0:12:02.167 this is completely untenable, and you're right what you say, 0:12:02.207 --> 0:12:05.607 Mayor about there are seasons with pets, But the thing 0:12:05.727 --> 0:12:08.727 is where does that leave the pet? Right, So you're 0:12:08.727 --> 0:12:13.367 exactly and medication you lean in. But then I also 0:12:13.447 --> 0:12:18.647 think that the transition, the baby transition, is like I mean, 0:12:18.887 --> 0:12:21.007 maybe one day Luna will have a sibling and then 0:12:21.087 --> 0:12:23.407 Luna is going to have to share the limelight. Like 0:12:23.407 --> 0:12:27.287 that is actually how families. Families work and the dynamics 0:12:27.527 --> 0:12:31.167 are constantly changing, And as long as the dog's needs 0:12:31.207 --> 0:12:33.607 are being met, then I think we can all rest 0:12:33.647 --> 0:12:35.647 easy that the dog is okay. 0:12:35.847 --> 0:12:38.127 Dog is okay. Of course, the dog's okay. But I 0:12:38.127 --> 0:12:41.247 think we've also got to be realistic. It's like if 0:12:41.247 --> 0:12:45.807 you were in a polygamous marriage and your partner brought 0:12:45.847 --> 0:12:48.207 in your partner home and when it's so great, they'll 0:12:48.247 --> 0:12:52.287 just be more loved to go around. Well maybe maybe, 0:12:52.847 --> 0:12:54.967 but it's probably not going to be that good for you. 0:12:55.127 --> 0:12:59.327 But we're humans. We're humans with quite complex brains. I 0:12:59.567 --> 0:13:01.607 love dogs. I think they're superiod to humans in a 0:13:01.647 --> 0:13:05.847 lot of different ways. Dogs brains aren't quite as complex 0:13:05.887 --> 0:13:09.767 as like I think that the dogs are okay. I 0:13:09.847 --> 0:13:11.687 really think that the dogs are okay. I don't think 0:13:11.727 --> 0:13:14.647 they're sitting there doing the maths in their little diary going. 0:13:14.687 --> 0:13:16.767 I used to get seventy percent of the cuddle, true, 0:13:16.767 --> 0:13:18.847 and now it's down to forty two percent of the cuddles. 0:13:18.887 --> 0:13:20.847 But today it's up a little bit because the like 0:13:21.447 --> 0:13:23.167 I think they're fine, right. 0:13:23.407 --> 0:13:25.167 I think about this all the time, because we recently 0:13:25.207 --> 0:13:26.807 just send our dogs away for a month because we 0:13:26.847 --> 0:13:31.007 needed to, and I often thought about what they thought. 0:13:31.047 --> 0:13:33.407 One of them wouldn't have thought anything, because she's barely sentient, 0:13:33.487 --> 0:13:37.127 but the other one has deep thoughts, and I often 0:13:37.207 --> 0:13:40.167 wonder if she'd go to sleep going. We had such 0:13:40.167 --> 0:13:42.487 a great thing, we were so in love, and this 0:13:42.687 --> 0:13:44.287 I wonder if I'll ever see her again. 0:13:44.367 --> 0:13:47.207 People who love their pets, which is hopefully everyone who 0:13:47.207 --> 0:13:48.927 has a pet, but as you've very rightly point out me, 0:13:49.047 --> 0:13:52.647 that's not true. We create the entire worlds for them, right, 0:13:53.247 --> 0:13:57.447 And you also do that when you have a baby. 0:13:57.007 --> 0:14:00.607 Like so, my dog has a voice. Yeah, she has 0:14:00.647 --> 0:14:04.087 a lot of opinions. She you know, she knows exactly 0:14:04.127 --> 0:14:08.167 which of us she likes best. Yeah, she likes I 0:14:08.247 --> 0:14:10.967 know where she likes to sit most in the house. 0:14:11.047 --> 0:14:12.767 I know what she thinks about all the other dogs 0:14:12.847 --> 0:14:15.087 in the neighborhood, Like I've created a whole world for 0:14:15.167 --> 0:14:18.327 my dog. And I remember when I was going to say, 0:14:18.327 --> 0:14:23.527 when we got a baby, when we brought Matilda home 0:14:23.567 --> 0:14:26.167 and she was just a little tiny in the immortal 0:14:26.167 --> 0:14:29.087 words of Angelina Jolie Blob, which were just a little 0:14:29.367 --> 0:14:32.567 gorgeous little blob, we had a voice for her, and 0:14:32.767 --> 0:14:35.207 same thing, right, like, what does she do when we're 0:14:35.207 --> 0:14:37.727 not looking when she's in her cot Like we created 0:14:37.767 --> 0:14:39.847 a whole world for her. And I wonder if it's 0:14:39.967 --> 0:14:44.727 like when you love things, people, pets, whatever, like you 0:14:44.767 --> 0:14:47.567 create these worlds for them, and then as you say me, 0:14:47.727 --> 0:14:50.127 other things shuffle along and you've got to change that. 0:14:50.607 --> 0:14:52.527 I was thinking about how it's kind of a bit 0:14:52.567 --> 0:14:55.527 of an offensive idea to say that pets are basically 0:14:55.567 --> 0:14:58.247 baby substitutes, which is what this lady was sort of 0:14:58.287 --> 0:15:00.887 saying in this piece, as she was saying, we don't 0:15:00.887 --> 0:15:02.887 really mean for that to be the case, but that 0:15:03.047 --> 0:15:05.447 is what they are. And then I was taking that 0:15:05.487 --> 0:15:09.327 to the jd vance extreme of like childless cat laid 0:15:09.527 --> 0:15:13.367 and what a sort of insulting idea that is. But 0:15:13.407 --> 0:15:16.327 then I also know parents who get very pissed off 0:15:16.407 --> 0:15:19.447 when people who don't have kids but have pets compare 0:15:19.527 --> 0:15:22.927 those loves. We've read those IROLLI pieces about people who 0:15:22.927 --> 0:15:25.287 want pet bereavement leave, and people will roll their eyes 0:15:25.327 --> 0:15:27.767 about that. And I don't think anyone here necessarily would 0:15:27.807 --> 0:15:29.327 because we've all lost beloved pets. 0:15:29.327 --> 0:15:31.327 But there's almost like. 0:15:31.487 --> 0:15:34.887 We really want to create a leaderboard for everybody in 0:15:34.927 --> 0:15:37.967 the world about what matterson, who loves who most, and 0:15:38.007 --> 0:15:38.767 all those things. 0:15:39.007 --> 0:15:41.047 I don't know why that makes people so mad. If 0:15:41.047 --> 0:15:45.567 someone sees their dog as their baby. I think that's fantastic. 0:15:45.727 --> 0:15:48.927 I think if you love something that much, I think 0:15:48.967 --> 0:15:51.887 if you're trying to compare it in terms of how 0:15:52.047 --> 0:15:55.927 much work and responsibility it is, I think you're probably wrong. 0:15:56.047 --> 0:15:59.407 I don't think it's comparable. But I don't think that's 0:15:59.407 --> 0:16:01.727 a problem. I think that if you're a person who 0:16:01.807 --> 0:16:04.087 just goes, you know what, I'm going to have a 0:16:04.127 --> 0:16:06.807 dog or two, or a cat or whatever and love 0:16:06.887 --> 0:16:08.407 this as much as I would love a baby, I 0:16:08.407 --> 0:16:09.687 think that's a fantastic. 0:16:10.047 --> 0:16:11.847 I was reading an interview with Dan Levy, you know, 0:16:11.887 --> 0:16:15.127 from Shit's Creek. He wrote this movie and starting it 0:16:15.207 --> 0:16:20.407 about grief, and he was talking about how his inspiration 0:16:20.767 --> 0:16:23.087 for writing the movie was that his grandmother died during 0:16:23.127 --> 0:16:26.447 COVID who he was close to. But then his dog 0:16:26.567 --> 0:16:30.287 died right before filming started, and he'd had this dog 0:16:30.567 --> 0:16:32.367 and spent every day with this dog for like fifteen 0:16:32.447 --> 0:16:34.607 years and had come on to set with him and everything. 0:16:35.527 --> 0:16:39.767 And he said that impacted me more than my grandmother dying, 0:16:39.807 --> 0:16:42.487 because it was he wasn't trying to compare them and 0:16:42.487 --> 0:16:44.847 put them on the leaderboard, but he said it was 0:16:45.207 --> 0:16:48.567 the most significant relationship of my life in terms of hours. 0:16:48.567 --> 0:16:50.527 Like he doesn't have a partner, or he hasn't had 0:16:50.527 --> 0:16:54.047 a long term partner. And you know, he loved his grandmother, 0:16:54.087 --> 0:16:56.047 but he sort of saw her a few times a 0:16:56.127 --> 0:16:58.687 year kind of thing. But his dog he'd been with 0:16:59.007 --> 0:17:03.447 every day for fifteen years. And people can have seasons. 0:17:03.487 --> 0:17:05.607 And I think that instinct that you talk about, Jesse, 0:17:06.127 --> 0:17:11.607 were biologically programmed to prayor tise our children over our 0:17:11.647 --> 0:17:14.927 dogs when they're helpless, our babies over everything. I remember 0:17:15.447 --> 0:17:18.807 bringing my second child home or my third child home, 0:17:19.407 --> 0:17:21.927 and you have that thing when you haven't a second child, 0:17:21.967 --> 0:17:23.567 if you do and you think, oh, how will I 0:17:23.647 --> 0:17:25.767 ever love any one as much as this first child? 0:17:26.207 --> 0:17:28.567 And then I found myself. She got a little bit 0:17:28.607 --> 0:17:31.207 too close and she was about three, and I kind 0:17:31.207 --> 0:17:32.967 of lashed out. I didn't hit her or anything, but 0:17:33.007 --> 0:17:35.007 I was just like I gave her a bit of 0:17:35.007 --> 0:17:37.767 a fright because I sort of put my hand up instinctively, 0:17:38.607 --> 0:17:43.047 and I remember being incredibly guilty but feeling that visceral 0:17:44.047 --> 0:17:48.007 protective instinct. And I knew in that moment, if I 0:17:48.047 --> 0:17:50.527 had to choose who to protect, I just instinctively was 0:17:50.647 --> 0:17:52.767 going to choose the one that needed me to protect 0:17:52.807 --> 0:17:56.047 them the most of the weakest. And I remember someone 0:17:56.087 --> 0:17:58.407 who you know quite well, Jesse, talking to them about 0:17:58.487 --> 0:18:01.487 having a baby and saying, I don't know if I'll 0:18:01.487 --> 0:18:03.807 ever love anyone as much as I love my dog. 0:18:04.567 --> 0:18:06.407 And I know that feeling too, And then there's just 0:18:06.447 --> 0:18:09.407 there is more love. But in terms of what's in 0:18:09.447 --> 0:18:12.207 it for the dog or the cat, I would say 0:18:12.207 --> 0:18:14.127 it's a net negative. But that's also okay. 0:18:14.527 --> 0:18:17.367 I don't know Chili's getting a lot of leftovers, yeah, 0:18:17.367 --> 0:18:20.527 that she's getting a lot of feod in upside and 0:18:20.567 --> 0:18:23.487 look downside for Chili? Is that my camera roll my 0:18:23.647 --> 0:18:28.807 phone background. Yeah, used to be Chili used to be everywhere? 0:18:28.847 --> 0:18:30.927 And do I take less photos of chili? I do? 0:18:31.007 --> 0:18:33.807 I will admit that publicly. Does chili mind? I don't 0:18:33.807 --> 0:18:34.087 think so. 0:18:34.247 --> 0:18:36.447 Before you had Luna, we used to have a family 0:18:36.567 --> 0:18:40.647 group chat with some members of our family and your sister, 0:18:41.047 --> 0:18:44.247 and it used to be about our dogs, our shared dogs, 0:18:44.247 --> 0:18:46.727 of which there've been different numbers over the years as 0:18:46.847 --> 0:18:49.767 dogs have come and gone, but not being rehomeed, not 0:18:49.847 --> 0:18:53.687 being put down. Sadly, one died. We acquired a couple 0:18:53.767 --> 0:18:56.087 of new ones, and that used to be one of 0:18:56.087 --> 0:18:59.527 the most active group chats on my phone, and gosh, 0:18:59.567 --> 0:19:01.567 it's been dormant for a while. I couldn't even remember. 0:19:01.567 --> 0:19:03.167 I wanted to put something in there the other day 0:19:03.887 --> 0:19:05.407 and I couldn't even remember what it was called. 0:19:05.967 --> 0:19:08.767 I think when we lost our dog Elvi, I wrote 0:19:08.807 --> 0:19:11.927 a story I remember saying, like dogs are a place 0:19:12.007 --> 0:19:13.887 where you put your feelings, like I think pets are, 0:19:14.087 --> 0:19:16.327 like they are a place where you put your feelings. 0:19:16.847 --> 0:19:19.367 You know, you can be silly and fun with them, 0:19:19.607 --> 0:19:23.127 you can be cuddly and loving with them. And to 0:19:23.167 --> 0:19:26.367 the point about the Dan Levy story, I remember when 0:19:26.407 --> 0:19:29.367 we lost Elvie, and we were also upset, and Brent 0:19:29.487 --> 0:19:32.927 was particularly devastated. A lot of women said to me, oh, 0:19:32.967 --> 0:19:35.607 my husband or my brother or whatever. He couldn't cry 0:19:35.647 --> 0:19:38.487 when he lost his sibling or his parent, whatever. He 0:19:38.847 --> 0:19:41.487 cried a river when he lost his dog. Again. I 0:19:41.527 --> 0:19:44.447 think it's like a place you can put your feelings, 0:19:44.487 --> 0:19:47.767 that is like an uncomplicated place, you know. 0:19:47.887 --> 0:19:51.007 There's such a simplicity too. And the stage that I'm 0:19:51.047 --> 0:19:53.447 in with a you know, just over one year old, 0:19:53.727 --> 0:19:55.807