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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud and to our Friday's show where

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Speaker 2: we take a break from the news cycle and breathe out.

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Speaker 1: That was a SMR. Someone's going, Jesse, you never do it.

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Speaker 3: I hate ASMR. It makes me feel sick.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, fair enough, don't know good vibes.

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Speaker 1: From jaure cracking start for a Friday.

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Speaker 2: Today is Friday, the sixteenth of August, And I'm Holly Wainwright.

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Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And on Today's show, if cats and dogs and rats

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Speaker 2: and hamsters are our fur babies, what happens to them

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Speaker 2: when human babies enter the picture? And a podcast worth

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Speaker 2: binging And an Australian icon whose midlife vulnerability rocks me. Yes,

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Speaker 2: It's recommendation time and best of Worst of the Week

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Speaker 2: include Me as Logis, Jesse Is Margarita's I'm the best

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Speaker 2: piece of.

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Speaker 1: Advice I've had in forever.

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Speaker 2: But first mea Friedman.

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Speaker 1: If you are going away this weekend or in fact, ever,

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Speaker 1: and it involves an airport and a suitcase. Don't tie

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Speaker 1: a ribbon around the handle. Oh, in case you missed it,

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Speaker 1: Muma Mia spoke to Mike Harvey, who is the managing

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Speaker 1: director at First Move International. I don't even know what

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Speaker 1: that is, but he explained why attaching a ribbon to suitcase,

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Speaker 1: which many of us, including me do to help you

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Speaker 1: not pick up the wrong bag off the carousel, which

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Speaker 1: I have also done more than once. If you attach

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Speaker 1: a ribbon, it can actually interfere with the scanning process

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Speaker 1: in the luggage hall. So if the ribbon causes issues

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Speaker 1: during scanning, your bag may need to be manually processed,

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Speaker 1: which can cause delays, or it might miss the flight altogether.

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Speaker 1: So you know her when sometimes you bag doesn't show up,

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Speaker 1: it's probably maybe a ribbon, your ribbon.

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Speaker 3: See, I never have a ribbon, and my bag's always

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Speaker 3: shown up.

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Speaker 1: So there, have you taken the wrong bag.

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Speaker 3: Before I have? So I was going to say, I've

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Speaker 3: never done a ribbon, I've never done a tag. I've

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Speaker 3: never done anything. And I just buy the cheapest luggage

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Speaker 3: I can, which happens to be the same luggage as

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Speaker 3: everyone else. And I'm like, who needs a ribbon. I'm

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Speaker 3: not an idiot anyway. I've taken the wrong bag home,

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Speaker 3: opened it gone, these are not my things, and got

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Speaker 3: very angry call from the airport as I had ruined

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Speaker 3: someone's day. I don't like I need my stuff, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, I'll be right there.

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Speaker 1: So what I do is that my whole bag is

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Speaker 1: a ribbon. I just buy a bag in the most

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Speaker 1: lurid color. Then you can imagine I've got a hot

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Speaker 1: pink suitcase.

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Speaker 2: Oh of course, Friedman, of you, I like it. I'm

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Speaker 2: bringing trouble today. It's Friday, and I'm feeling feisty. I

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Speaker 2: would like to bring the group's attention to an article

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Speaker 2: in the cut from New York Magazine by a woman

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Speaker 2: who had possibly the best reason ever for remaining anonymous.

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Speaker 2: While writing on the internet. She is complaining about her cat,

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Speaker 2: not only complaining, actually, but confessing. The article is called

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Speaker 2: why Did I Stop loving my cat when I had

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Speaker 2: a baby, and it comes with an editor's note. The

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Speaker 2: editor's note reads, this story is part of a New

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Speaker 2: York Magazine exploration of the ethics of pet ownership, sharing

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Speaker 2: a variety of points of view on whether we're equipped

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Speaker 2: to care for the animals in our homes. The magazine

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Speaker 2: confirmed the welfare of this cat prior to publication.

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Speaker 1: Oh I was going to say you sounds so boring,

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Speaker 1: but I mean now, oh my god, it's so good.

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Speaker 2: As you might gather from the title, the woman in

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Speaker 2: question has a baby and a cat, and the cat

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Speaker 2: came first. She writes in blisteringly honest detail about how

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Speaker 2: since the baby arrived, she not only is less interested

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Speaker 2: in Lucky, her beloved pussy cat, but that she actively

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Speaker 2: resents her. She writes about being tempted but not actually

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Speaker 2: acting on it to kick said cat. She confesses to

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Speaker 2: leaving the window open so that Lucky might escape, and

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Speaker 2: she admits to forgetting to leave Lucky any water, so

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Speaker 2: she found the poor prince all over the toilet where

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Speaker 2: he was desperately drinking from the bowl. Forgetting to groom her,

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Speaker 2: forgetting to feed her anything but the most basic of foods.

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Speaker 2: She've spoke to lots of different pet owners who had babies,

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Speaker 2: and she writes, like me, none of the women I

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Speaker 2: spoke with had intentionally obtained her pet to use the

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Speaker 2: animal as training wheels for a baby. None would think

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Speaker 2: of seeing her pet in such frostily instrumental terms. They

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Speaker 2: got their pets for all the usual sweet reasons for

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Speaker 2: companionship to offer a safe home. Just because a pet

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Speaker 2: can function as a prototype baby doesn't mean it must

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Speaker 2: or that it's only that. But let's grant that that happens.

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Speaker 1: You had a.

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Speaker 2: Pet who was your baby, and now you have a

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Speaker 2: baby who is your baby. Does that mean the pet

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Speaker 2: is sentenced to irrelevance. I want to talk about the

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Speaker 2: ethics and the drivers of our love for pets, but

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Speaker 2: first I need to be mischievous and ask my co host,

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Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens, didn't you say something quite similar to this

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Speaker 2: about your beloved dog Chili.

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Speaker 3: I resent the term similar, because I know I ever

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Speaker 3: expressed a will to kick my dog or leave the

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Speaker 3: doors open. I was a little bit horrified, to be

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Speaker 3: completely honest, by some of the things I read in

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Speaker 3: that article. But what I did say was that it

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Speaker 3: surprised me in the aftermath, in that postpartum period, particularly

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Speaker 3: sort of three or four months after having a baby,

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Speaker 3: my response to my dog, because what happened. I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure if I told this story, but we got home

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Speaker 3: from hospital and Luca had the car seat and he

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Speaker 3: put the car seat down on the floor in our house,

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Speaker 3: and I felt a sensation I have never felt before,

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Speaker 3: which was sheer terror.

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Speaker 1: In the car seat. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, like, what do you call it when it's

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Speaker 3: sure the capsule the cap I thought.

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Speaker 1: It meant you just brought an empty capsule to just

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Speaker 1: try out what it looked like in your loundry.

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Speaker 3: Probably should have. Yeah, but the baby was in the

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Speaker 3: cabcake and he put the capsule down, and the dog

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Speaker 3: was on the other side of the room. But I

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Speaker 3: felt just sheer terror, and I saw in my mind's eye,

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Speaker 3: I was like, the dog attacks the baby. It was

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Speaker 3: all playing out. Had a real visceral response, and from

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Speaker 3: there it's not that I didn't love my dog. I

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Speaker 3: always loved my dog. But I became a little bit scared.

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Speaker 3: I became almost like, very vigilant of keeping the two apart.

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Speaker 3: And since speaking to some healthcare workers and you know,

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Speaker 3: people who work in hospitals, they've said that is very

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Speaker 3: sensible because they have seen some horrific instincts, and it is.

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Speaker 3: It was an instinct. And I've had a lot of

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Speaker 3: friends say this as well, that whereas before they would

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Speaker 3: be on the floor playing with the dog friendless hours,

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Speaker 3: dog slept in the bed, all of those things. Dog

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Speaker 3: can't sleep in the bed when you're up feeding overnight,

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Speaker 3: like it just can't be done.

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Speaker 1: Lower in the leaderboard. Yeah, the relationship has shifted.

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Speaker 3: The relationship shifted, And so I spoke about it on

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Speaker 3: the podcast and I said it it made me sad.

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Speaker 3: That was a mistake, and I it was my worst

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Speaker 3: of the week, right, and that I moved on with

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Speaker 3: my life and continued walking, feeding and watering my dog

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Speaker 3: you and loving my dog unconditionally. And then somewhere in

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Speaker 3: the hours of the internet, a rumor started that I

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Speaker 3: had rehomed and or put down my dog, which I

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Speaker 3: learned through multiple podcast reviews that said on our shows,

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Speaker 3: on our show on canceled saying, oh, someone called the RSPCA.

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Speaker 3: If someone called the RSPCA and they turned up to

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Speaker 3: my home, oh dear, they would find my dog on

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Speaker 3: her throne in the biggest bed you've ever seen, with

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Speaker 3: a very shiny coat, living her.

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Speaker 1: Best life, almost her best life, almost wildly displaced as

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Speaker 1: top of the leaderboard exactly, people who get your love

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Speaker 1: in your house.

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Speaker 3: But but I think that the idea that when a

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Speaker 3: baby comes along, and it's funny, right, because another worst

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Speaker 3: of the week that I had was about how I

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Speaker 3: felt like I wasn't giving enough time and energy to

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Speaker 3: my popuas dementia, to my cousin, who I've always cared for.

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Speaker 3: That caring or the nurturing muscle is finite, It's not endless.

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Speaker 3: There are only so many hours in a day, and

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Speaker 3: when you are physically attached to a baby, you can't

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Speaker 3: have the dog on your lap all day. You just can't.

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Speaker 2: No, But you are talking about very practical things, and

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Speaker 2: you're very sensible, and you're right one hundred percent. But

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Speaker 2: there's something else going on here, and it's why we

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Speaker 2: get pets in the first place, right, Because what this

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Speaker 2: story was about, and what lots and lots of pieces

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Speaker 2: that are about this very things about, is that very

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Speaker 2: often people get pets before they have babies, and those

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Speaker 2: pets are their babies. As she says in this right,

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Speaker 2: we've repositioned the place of pets in our lives for

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Speaker 2: lots of different reasons. I think we call them fur babies.

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Speaker 1: You know, there was not everybody does, no, no, of course not.

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Speaker 2: But culturally is what I'm talking about. Like, culturally we

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Speaker 2: have elevated pets to their fur babies.

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Speaker 1: Eat their food.

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Speaker 2: You've seen those ads for the dog and the person's

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Speaker 2: eating it, and there's like, now there's a fragrance that

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Speaker 2: you can buy for your dog.

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Speaker 1: I took my dogs to a psychiatr.

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Speaker 2: Dog psychiatry. There are dog hotels. Dog like we have

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Speaker 2: elevated the status of our pets, and like the three

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Speaker 2: of us are all dog people and we all love

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Speaker 2: our dogs enormously. But there is a very real thing

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Speaker 2: at play here. And I've heard you describe it before, Jesse,

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Speaker 2: as like you need a place to put your nurture

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Speaker 2: because I didn't have a dog before I had a kid.

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Speaker 2: I mean I had one when I was growing up.

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Speaker 2: I think we got our family dog at a perfect

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Speaker 2: time for me, and that it was just as I

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Speaker 2: was coming out of that really cuddly nurtury thing with

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Speaker 2: my kids because they're older, and now I've replaced the

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Speaker 2: baby stage with my popul Like I could cuddle her

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Speaker 2: all day long and she always likes to see me,

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Speaker 2: and she's never going ooh, I'm looking at her phone. Like,

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Speaker 2: so I get an emotional nurturing need met by my

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Speaker 2: dog that probably for years there I was getting from

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Speaker 2: my little kids.

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Speaker 3: We do have an instinct to care for things that

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Speaker 3: need to be cared for. Right, And just because you

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Speaker 3: love dogs or love cats, I love your pets doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean that it's a maternal paternal thing. I think that

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Speaker 3: there are people who are brilliant pet owners who don't

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Speaker 3: have any interesting kids, for example. But there's something about

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Speaker 3: the nurturing that's very good for us. And also the

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Speaker 3: physical touch element. Right parents talk about like being touched

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Speaker 3: out and feeling like there's too much of that. I

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Speaker 3: wonder if it is for people who feel like that's

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Speaker 3: missing from their life, like something to love more than

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Speaker 3: themselves and that will unconditionally love you back. I think

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Speaker 3: that is sort of feeling that void for a lot

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Speaker 3: of us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's that saying. If you have teenagers

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Speaker 1: and you want someone to be happy to see you

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Speaker 1: when you get home, get a dog. And I think

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Speaker 1: there can be eras not just related to whether you

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Speaker 1: have kids or not and how all those kids are,

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Speaker 1: but just times in your life. I mean, we saw

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Speaker 1: a lot of people get dogs, myself included, or get

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Speaker 1: pets during COVID during lockdown when we were home all

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Speaker 1: the time, and when those dogs and cats got a

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Speaker 1: lot of love and a lot of time and a

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Speaker 1: lot of attention because we had nowhere else to put

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Speaker 1: any of that stuff. But then when we had to

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Speaker 1: go back to work or we could travel again, and

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Speaker 1: all of those things, it's no wonder we've got a

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Speaker 1: generation of really anxious, confused dogs who were like, hang on,

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Speaker 1: weren't we in love? What happened? We used to hang

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Speaker 1: out all the time. And I think there are just

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Speaker 1: times in your life where your dog is center stage

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Speaker 1: or your cat, and times when they're not. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: at its worst, some people are horrendous and just go

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Speaker 1: and dump them. And thank Heavens for dog shelters, And

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Speaker 1: if anyone wants to get a pet, please go and

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Speaker 1: look at a pet shelter, because tens of thousands of

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Speaker 1: dogs and cats that are beautiful get put down every

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Speaker 1: day because someone either couldn't look after them anymore. I

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Speaker 1: just didn't want to look after them anymore.

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Speaker 3: That makes me so sad, right, Like it really doesn't

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Speaker 3: be tragic. I was reading a different story about a

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Speaker 3: woman who had three dogs and then she had two

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Speaker 3: kids come along, and she basically went, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 3: this is completely untenable, and you're right what you say,

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Speaker 3: Mayor about there are seasons with pets, But the thing

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Speaker 3: is where does that leave the pet? Right, So you're

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Speaker 3: exactly and medication you lean in. But then I also

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Speaker 3: think that the transition, the baby transition, is like I mean,

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Speaker 3: maybe one day Luna will have a sibling and then

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Speaker 3: Luna is going to have to share the limelight. Like

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Speaker 3: that is actually how families. Families work and the dynamics

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Speaker 3: are constantly changing, And as long as the dog's needs

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Speaker 3: are being met, then I think we can all rest

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Speaker 3: easy that the dog is okay.

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Speaker 1: Dog is okay. Of course, the dog's okay. But I

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Speaker 1: think we've also got to be realistic. It's like if

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Speaker 1: you were in a polygamous marriage and your partner brought

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Speaker 1: in your partner home and when it's so great, they'll

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Speaker 1: just be more loved to go around. Well maybe maybe,

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Speaker 1: but it's probably not going to be that good for you.

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Speaker 3: But we're humans. We're humans with quite complex brains. I

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Speaker 3: love dogs. I think they're superiod to humans in a

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Speaker 3: lot of different ways. Dogs brains aren't quite as complex

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Speaker 3: as like I think that the dogs are okay. I

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Speaker 3: really think that the dogs are okay. I don't think

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Speaker 3: they're sitting there doing the maths in their little diary going.

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Speaker 3: I used to get seventy percent of the cuddle, true,

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Speaker 3: and now it's down to forty two percent of the cuddles.

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Speaker 3: But today it's up a little bit because the like

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Speaker 3: I think they're fine, right.

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Speaker 1: I think about this all the time, because we recently

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Speaker 1: just send our dogs away for a month because we

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Speaker 1: needed to, and I often thought about what they thought.

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Speaker 1: One of them wouldn't have thought anything, because she's barely sentient,

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Speaker 1: but the other one has deep thoughts, and I often

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Speaker 1: wonder if she'd go to sleep going. We had such

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Speaker 1: a great thing, we were so in love, and this

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Speaker 1: I wonder if I'll ever see her again.

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Speaker 2: People who love their pets, which is hopefully everyone who

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Speaker 2: has a pet, but as you've very rightly point out me,

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Speaker 2: that's not true. We create the entire worlds for them, right,

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Speaker 2: And you also do that when you have a baby.

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Speaker 2: Like so, my dog has a voice. Yeah, she has

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Speaker 2: a lot of opinions. She you know, she knows exactly

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Speaker 2: which of us she likes best. Yeah, she likes I

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Speaker 2: know where she likes to sit most in the house.

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Speaker 2: I know what she thinks about all the other dogs

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Speaker 2: in the neighborhood, Like I've created a whole world for

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Speaker 2: my dog. And I remember when I was going to say,

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Speaker 2: when we got a baby, when we brought Matilda home

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Speaker 2: and she was just a little tiny in the immortal

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Speaker 2: words of Angelina Jolie Blob, which were just a little

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Speaker 2: gorgeous little blob, we had a voice for her, and

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Speaker 2: same thing, right, like, what does she do when we're

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Speaker 2: not looking when she's in her cot Like we created

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Speaker 2: a whole world for her. And I wonder if it's

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Speaker 2: like when you love things, people, pets, whatever, like you

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Speaker 2: create these worlds for them, and then as you say me,

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Speaker 2: other things shuffle along and you've got to change that.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about how it's kind of a bit

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Speaker 2: of an offensive idea to say that pets are basically

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Speaker 2: baby substitutes, which is what this lady was sort of

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Speaker 2: saying in this piece, as she was saying, we don't

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Speaker 2: really mean for that to be the case, but that

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Speaker 2: is what they are. And then I was taking that

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Speaker 2: to the jd vance extreme of like childless cat laid

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Speaker 2: and what a sort of insulting idea that is. But

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Speaker 2: then I also know parents who get very pissed off

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Speaker 2: when people who don't have kids but have pets compare

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Speaker 2: those loves. We've read those IROLLI pieces about people who

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Speaker 2: want pet bereavement leave, and people will roll their eyes

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Speaker 2: about that. And I don't think anyone here necessarily would

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Speaker 2: because we've all lost beloved pets.

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Speaker 1: But there's almost like.

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Speaker 2: We really want to create a leaderboard for everybody in

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Speaker 2: the world about what matterson, who loves who most, and

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Speaker 2: all those things.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why that makes people so mad. If

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Speaker 3: someone sees their dog as their baby. I think that's fantastic.

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Speaker 3: I think if you love something that much, I think

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Speaker 3: if you're trying to compare it in terms of how

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Speaker 3: much work and responsibility it is, I think you're probably wrong.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's comparable. But I don't think that's

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Speaker 3: a problem. I think that if you're a person who

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Speaker 3: just goes, you know what, I'm going to have a

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Speaker 3: dog or two, or a cat or whatever and love

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Speaker 3: this as much as I would love a baby, I

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Speaker 3: think that's a fantastic.

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Speaker 1: I was reading an interview with Dan Levy, you know,

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Speaker 1: from Shit's Creek. He wrote this movie and starting it

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Speaker 1: about grief, and he was talking about how his inspiration

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Speaker 1: for writing the movie was that his grandmother died during

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Speaker 1: COVID who he was close to. But then his dog

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Speaker 1: died right before filming started, and he'd had this dog

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Speaker 1: and spent every day with this dog for like fifteen

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Speaker 1: years and had come on to set with him and everything.

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Speaker 1: And he said that impacted me more than my grandmother dying,

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Speaker 1: because it was he wasn't trying to compare them and

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Speaker 1: put them on the leaderboard, but he said it was

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Speaker 1: the most significant relationship of my life in terms of hours.

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Speaker 1: Like he doesn't have a partner, or he hasn't had

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Speaker 1: a long term partner. And you know, he loved his grandmother,

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Speaker 1: but he sort of saw her a few times a

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Speaker 1: year kind of thing. But his dog he'd been with

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Speaker 1: every day for fifteen years. And people can have seasons.

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Speaker 1: And I think that instinct that you talk about, Jesse,

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Speaker 1: were biologically programmed to prayor tise our children over our

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Speaker 1: dogs when they're helpless, our babies over everything. I remember

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Speaker 1: bringing my second child home or my third child home,

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Speaker 1: and you have that thing when you haven't a second child,

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Speaker 1: if you do and you think, oh, how will I

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Speaker 1: ever love any one as much as this first child?

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Speaker 1: And then I found myself. She got a little bit

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Speaker 1: too close and she was about three, and I kind

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Speaker 1: of lashed out. I didn't hit her or anything, but

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Speaker 1: I was just like I gave her a bit of

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Speaker 1: a fright because I sort of put my hand up instinctively,

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Speaker 1: and I remember being incredibly guilty but feeling that visceral

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Speaker 1: protective instinct. And I knew in that moment, if I

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Speaker 1: had to choose who to protect, I just instinctively was

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Speaker 1: going to choose the one that needed me to protect

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Speaker 1: them the most of the weakest. And I remember someone

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Speaker 1: who you know quite well, Jesse, talking to them about

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Speaker 1: having a baby and saying, I don't know if I'll

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Speaker 1: ever love anyone as much as I love my dog.

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Speaker 1: And I know that feeling too, And then there's just

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Speaker 1: there is more love. But in terms of what's in

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Speaker 1: it for the dog or the cat, I would say

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Speaker 1: it's a net negative. But that's also okay.

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Speaker 3: I don't know Chili's getting a lot of leftovers, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that she's getting a lot of feod in upside and

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Speaker 3: look downside for Chili? Is that my camera roll my

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Speaker 3: phone background. Yeah, used to be Chili used to be everywhere?

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Speaker 3: And do I take less photos of chili? I do?

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Speaker 3: I will admit that publicly. Does chili mind? I don't

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Speaker 3: think so.

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Speaker 1: Before you had Luna, we used to have a family

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Speaker 1: group chat with some members of our family and your sister,

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Speaker 1: and it used to be about our dogs, our shared dogs,

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Speaker 1: of which there've been different numbers over the years as

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Speaker 1: dogs have come and gone, but not being rehomeed, not

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Speaker 1: being put down. Sadly, one died. We acquired a couple

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Speaker 1: of new ones, and that used to be one of

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Speaker 1: the most active group chats on my phone, and gosh,

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Speaker 1: it's been dormant for a while. I couldn't even remember.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to put something in there the other day

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't even remember what it was called.

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Speaker 2: I think when we lost our dog Elvi, I wrote

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Speaker 2: a story I remember saying, like dogs are a place

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Speaker 2: where you put your feelings, like I think pets are,

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Speaker 2: like they are a place where you put your feelings.

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Speaker 2: You know, you can be silly and fun with them,

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Speaker 2: you can be cuddly and loving with them. And to

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Speaker 2: the point about the Dan Levy story, I remember when

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Speaker 2: we lost Elvie, and we were also upset, and Brent

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Speaker 2: was particularly devastated. A lot of women said to me, oh,

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Speaker 2: my husband or my brother or whatever. He couldn't cry

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Speaker 2: when he lost his sibling or his parent, whatever. He

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Speaker 2: cried a river when he lost his dog. Again. I

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Speaker 2: think it's like a place you can put your feelings,

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Speaker 2: that is like an uncomplicated place, you know.

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Speaker 3: There's such a simplicity too. And the stage that I'm

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Speaker 3: in with a you know, just over one year old,

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Speaker 3: there's a simplicity to that too, which is that I

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Speaker 3: will walk in the door this afternoon and there will

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Speaker 3: be a dog and a baby that think I am

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Speaker 3: the best person in the world. Like I walk in

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Speaker 3: and there's smiles from her and the dog's tail wags,

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Speaker 3: and it is like I am the best, and I

407
00:20:10,727 --> 00:20:13,167
Speaker 3: know that's not going to be there forever. But I

408
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Speaker 3: see a similarity in that way, that there's a simplicity

409
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Speaker 3: whatever happens. People can accuse me of rehoming my dog

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Speaker 3: on the internet.

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Speaker 1: We do need proof ofly.

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Speaker 3: I come home.

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Speaker 2: She did a defensive post.

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Speaker 1: I saw it.

415
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Speaker 2: She posted a picture of Luca really cuddling Chili. It

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Speaker 2: was a very handsome picture of both of them, and

417
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Speaker 2: now it's like that is such a defensive post.

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Speaker 1: She was like, dog's still here.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't quite holding up a newspaper with the date

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Speaker 2: on it, but she could have been yeah.

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Speaker 3: Out louders. Last week we announced the Clare and I

422
00:20:45,447 --> 00:20:49,207
Speaker 3: are doing our biggest Lazy Girl giveaway ever. It is

423
00:20:49,367 --> 00:20:53,407
Speaker 3: a trip for two to Turkey with Explore and Explore

424
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Speaker 3: have organized the whole thing for you. So as part

425
00:20:56,647 --> 00:20:59,847
Speaker 3: of this giveaway, you win a holiday valued at over

426
00:21:00,527 --> 00:21:01,727
Speaker 3: nine thousand dollars.

427
00:21:01,967 --> 00:21:04,647
Speaker 1: Do you know why this is perfect? Because I like

428
00:21:04,727 --> 00:21:07,207
Speaker 1: going on holidays, but I cannot organize them. I just

429
00:21:07,247 --> 00:21:09,847
Speaker 1: don't know. You can't find it too, can fusing and

430
00:21:10,047 --> 00:21:13,087
Speaker 1: I just can't so the fact that it's organized and Turkey.

431
00:21:13,127 --> 00:21:14,887
Speaker 1: Turkey's beautiful. I've been there before. It's gorgeous.

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00:21:14,927 --> 00:21:16,607
Speaker 3: That's one of the best places in the world. And

433
00:21:16,687 --> 00:21:18,927
Speaker 3: if you are a Mum and maya subscriber, you're already

434
00:21:18,927 --> 00:21:20,967
Speaker 3: in the running. You've entered a competition today, you could

435
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Speaker 3: be winning a holiday to Turkey. If you are not

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Speaker 3: a subscriber, but you would love to enter and enter

437
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Speaker 3: all future Lazy Girl giveaways, you can use the code

438
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Speaker 3: VAC twenty for twenty percent off a yearly Muma mea subscription.

439
00:21:34,087 --> 00:21:36,487
Speaker 3: There's a link in the show note that applies the

440
00:21:36,527 --> 00:21:40,687
Speaker 3: code automatically at checkout. Prize draw is on the twentieth

441
00:21:40,727 --> 00:21:42,407
Speaker 3: of August. T's and c's apply.

442
00:21:51,407 --> 00:21:53,767
Speaker 1: It's Friday, so we want to help set up your

443
00:21:53,767 --> 00:21:58,247
Speaker 1: weekend with our best recommendations. Holly, you're going first, And

444
00:21:58,327 --> 00:22:01,927
Speaker 1: I'm jealous because I wasn't paying attention in the meeting

445
00:22:02,167 --> 00:22:05,087
Speaker 1: and you said this, and I was going to say it,

446
00:22:05,127 --> 00:22:06,927
Speaker 1: but i just want to add a plus one and

447
00:22:06,967 --> 00:22:10,007
Speaker 1: then I'll do what I have had to do because

448
00:22:10,047 --> 00:22:10,727
Speaker 1: you got it first.

449
00:22:10,927 --> 00:22:13,887
Speaker 2: Dibbs are called DIBs, but it's like shutgun when it's

450
00:22:13,927 --> 00:22:15,807
Speaker 2: that case, which I think a couple of our recommendations,

451
00:22:15,807 --> 00:22:17,127
Speaker 2: I to say it can be from both of us.

452
00:22:17,367 --> 00:22:19,287
Speaker 2: We are allowed to chip appreciate. You are allowed that

453
00:22:19,327 --> 00:22:21,687
Speaker 2: to do that because it does involve one of your friends.

454
00:22:22,207 --> 00:22:24,487
Speaker 2: One Lee Sales, who out loud as would know is

455
00:22:24,487 --> 00:22:26,767
Speaker 2: one of our friends, because what's one of me as friends?

456
00:22:26,767 --> 00:22:30,367
Speaker 2: But will alclaimer she narrated one of the videos that

457
00:22:30,407 --> 00:22:32,327
Speaker 2: our live show she did. I forgot about such a

458
00:22:32,367 --> 00:22:36,407
Speaker 2: great friend of the parts. Hardly sales on Monday Night,

459
00:22:36,607 --> 00:22:39,287
Speaker 2: Australian Story was an interview with Like different from the

460
00:22:39,367 --> 00:22:41,967
Speaker 2: usual Australian Story style, which was just an interview with

461
00:22:42,007 --> 00:22:44,567
Speaker 2: her and Nick Cave. Right, I don't think I need

462
00:22:44,567 --> 00:22:46,047
Speaker 2: to explain. Do you think I need to explain to

463
00:22:46,127 --> 00:22:48,087
Speaker 2: Nick Cave is me? It is very good at always

464
00:22:48,127 --> 00:22:53,487
Speaker 2: making sure you know iconic seeing a couple of Australian

465
00:22:53,647 --> 00:22:59,567
Speaker 2: rock star particularly enormous in the nineties and naughties red

466
00:22:59,647 --> 00:23:02,807
Speaker 2: right hand into your arms, like straight to you, that's

467
00:23:02,847 --> 00:23:07,127
Speaker 2: my favorite ship song. Like just an icon, right, but

468
00:23:07,287 --> 00:23:10,247
Speaker 2: an icon for many years of like a sort of

469
00:23:10,367 --> 00:23:16,487
Speaker 2: nihilistic drug adult gothic bad boy. I'm just going to

470
00:23:16,527 --> 00:23:17,087
Speaker 2: say bad boy.

471
00:23:17,447 --> 00:23:19,207
Speaker 3: I'm going to have that context because I've only known

472
00:23:19,287 --> 00:23:21,047
Speaker 3: Nick Cave sort of in the last ten year.

473
00:23:21,127 --> 00:23:24,367
Speaker 2: Yes, so that's interesting and always very cool, like cool

474
00:23:24,607 --> 00:23:27,927
Speaker 2: is the word, Okay, Like unbelievably cool Nick Cave in

475
00:23:27,927 --> 00:23:30,567
Speaker 2: The Bad Seeds, the Birthday Party, just cool, cool cool.

476
00:23:30,887 --> 00:23:31,087
Speaker 1: Right.

477
00:23:31,847 --> 00:23:34,527
Speaker 2: The thing is is that, as anyone who lives vaguely

478
00:23:34,607 --> 00:23:37,047
Speaker 2: near the Internet would know, in the past decade, Nick

479
00:23:37,087 --> 00:23:40,927
Speaker 2: Cave has suffered unthinkable loss. Several years ago, he lost

480
00:23:41,047 --> 00:23:44,007
Speaker 2: his son Arthur, who was fifteen years old and tragically

481
00:23:44,047 --> 00:23:46,207
Speaker 2: appears to have jumped from a cliff near their home

482
00:23:46,247 --> 00:23:48,447
Speaker 2: on the south coast of England. And then a couple

483
00:23:48,447 --> 00:23:51,647
Speaker 2: of years ago he lost his adult son, Jethro, who

484
00:23:51,687 --> 00:23:55,367
Speaker 2: was thirty one. So unthinkable loss for anybody. But one

485
00:23:55,407 --> 00:23:57,887
Speaker 2: of the things that's happened to Nick Cave in this

486
00:23:58,007 --> 00:24:02,447
Speaker 2: decade or so since is he has completely sort of

487
00:24:02,727 --> 00:24:06,447
Speaker 2: changed his I want to say, like his persona in

488
00:24:06,527 --> 00:24:09,567
Speaker 2: that he started this something you would never have expect

489
00:24:09,287 --> 00:24:12,367
Speaker 2: a person like Nick Cave to do. He did in

490
00:24:12,407 --> 00:24:16,207
Speaker 2: the years after losing Arthur, which is that he started

491
00:24:16,247 --> 00:24:19,647
Speaker 2: a newsletter basically called The Red Hand Files where he

492
00:24:19,687 --> 00:24:22,487
Speaker 2: wrote about loss and grief, and he invited other people

493
00:24:22,527 --> 00:24:24,847
Speaker 2: to do the same. They began to share all these stories.

494
00:24:25,207 --> 00:24:27,047
Speaker 2: And he's turned that into music, and he's turned it

495
00:24:27,087 --> 00:24:28,647
Speaker 2: into art, and he's turned it into part of his

496
00:24:28,687 --> 00:24:32,407
Speaker 2: live show. And the reason I loved this interview with

497
00:24:32,607 --> 00:24:35,287
Speaker 2: Lee so much, and I've listened to lots of interviews

498
00:24:35,327 --> 00:24:37,647
Speaker 2: with him, and He's written an amazing book and about

499
00:24:37,647 --> 00:24:41,287
Speaker 2: all of this stuff is it's like it brings home

500
00:24:41,727 --> 00:24:46,007
Speaker 2: this kind of change that can come upon people as

501
00:24:46,047 --> 00:24:47,927
Speaker 2: things happen to them in their lives, like there aren't

502
00:24:47,967 --> 00:24:51,007
Speaker 2: that many people who get to midlife and beyond without

503
00:24:51,007 --> 00:24:53,727
Speaker 2: suffering loss, not this level of lost necessarily, I'm not,

504
00:24:54,127 --> 00:24:56,247
Speaker 2: you know, And there is no leader board of grief.

505
00:24:56,287 --> 00:24:58,887
Speaker 2: But the depth of that and what the change in him,

506
00:24:58,887 --> 00:25:01,247
Speaker 2: And he speaks very honestly about that. He says to Lee,

507
00:25:01,327 --> 00:25:04,527
Speaker 2: like I always lived for art and thought that my

508
00:25:04,767 --> 00:25:06,647
Speaker 2: art was the most important thing, and if I was

509
00:25:06,687 --> 00:25:08,927
Speaker 2: off locked in a room creating it, that's what I

510
00:25:08,967 --> 00:25:11,687
Speaker 2: was doing. And he's realized that actually, no connection is

511
00:25:11,767 --> 00:25:12,567
Speaker 2: much more important.

512
00:25:12,607 --> 00:25:13,527
Speaker 1: That he's a father.

513
00:25:13,327 --> 00:25:16,527
Speaker 2: First, which all sounds like cliches until you hear him

514
00:25:16,527 --> 00:25:17,327
Speaker 2: talking about it.

515
00:25:17,847 --> 00:25:20,327
Speaker 4: For most of my life, I was just sort of

516
00:25:21,687 --> 00:25:26,847
Speaker 4: in awe of my own genius because I was involved

517
00:25:26,887 --> 00:25:32,767
Speaker 4: in this great work that you know, and this just

518
00:25:32,887 --> 00:25:36,847
Speaker 4: collapsed completely, and I just sort of saw the folly

519
00:25:36,887 --> 00:25:42,167
Speaker 4: of that, that idea that art sort of trounces everything.

520
00:25:42,927 --> 00:25:45,687
Speaker 4: It just doesn't apply to me anymore. I am a father,

521
00:25:46,367 --> 00:25:49,207
Speaker 4: and I'm a husband and a kind of person of

522
00:25:49,247 --> 00:25:52,607
Speaker 4: the world. These things are much more important to me

523
00:25:52,727 --> 00:25:54,527
Speaker 4: than the concept of being an artist.

524
00:25:54,887 --> 00:25:57,927
Speaker 2: It's like seeing this elder statesman look back on that

525
00:25:57,967 --> 00:26:00,567
Speaker 2: young version of himself too, and sort of also like

526
00:26:00,647 --> 00:26:02,567
Speaker 2: kind of laughing at him, which is interesting.

527
00:26:02,887 --> 00:26:07,087
Speaker 1: There's something called post traumatic growth that doesn't happen to everybody.

528
00:26:07,167 --> 00:26:11,727
Speaker 1: We're much more familiar with post traumatic stress syndrome and

529
00:26:12,207 --> 00:26:14,847
Speaker 1: the terrible things that can happen to people after they've

530
00:26:14,927 --> 00:26:18,767
Speaker 1: experienced trauma, but there's another group of people who experience

531
00:26:18,847 --> 00:26:21,967
Speaker 1: the exact opposite. And I've got a friend who lost

532
00:26:22,007 --> 00:26:25,167
Speaker 1: a child, and she said it was like the light

533
00:26:25,207 --> 00:26:28,927
Speaker 1: in her life was turned up, not down. And by that,

534
00:26:29,007 --> 00:26:30,887
Speaker 1: of course, she doesn't mean I'm happier that I was

535
00:26:31,047 --> 00:26:33,327
Speaker 1: or I'm glad that she lost the child. She doesn't

536
00:26:33,327 --> 00:26:35,927
Speaker 1: mean that at all, of course, but she means that

537
00:26:36,047 --> 00:26:38,607
Speaker 1: it brought Like Nick Kay said, it brought her life,

538
00:26:38,607 --> 00:26:43,127
Speaker 1: meaning it opened her up to other people, It made

539
00:26:43,207 --> 00:26:46,807
Speaker 1: her bigger in the world and in her heart, rather

540
00:26:46,887 --> 00:26:50,087
Speaker 1: than shutting her down. And clearly that's what's happened to

541
00:26:50,167 --> 00:26:52,607
Speaker 1: Nick Cave Like he gets hundreds of letters every week,

542
00:26:52,927 --> 00:26:54,847
Speaker 1: and he says he reads every single one of them,

543
00:26:55,487 --> 00:26:59,287
Speaker 1: and he chooses a couple to answer in the newsletter

544
00:27:00,607 --> 00:27:03,287
Speaker 1: and he sees it as it because you know, you

545
00:27:03,367 --> 00:27:05,087
Speaker 1: might hear that and think, oh, that's a burden, but

546
00:27:05,127 --> 00:27:08,247
Speaker 1: you can really see that he's found purpose in a

547
00:27:08,327 --> 00:27:12,287
Speaker 1: way that he probably thought he found in his music.

548
00:27:12,447 --> 00:27:14,407
Speaker 1: And I'm sure at that time he did find a

549
00:27:14,407 --> 00:27:17,207
Speaker 1: degree of purpose, but you're right in comparison to that,

550
00:27:17,847 --> 00:27:21,487
Speaker 1: this is for him a much more profound sense of purpose.

551
00:27:21,687 --> 00:27:24,647
Speaker 2: It's like he's looked up and out and I think

552
00:27:24,647 --> 00:27:29,207
Speaker 2: that's something that happens Ideally, happens as you mature. I'm

553
00:27:29,207 --> 00:27:31,807
Speaker 2: going to say, but like it's not all about you anymore,

554
00:27:32,287 --> 00:27:34,487
Speaker 2: and you look up and out and hit his grief

555
00:27:34,487 --> 00:27:36,167
Speaker 2: and his loss has made him do that. It's a

556
00:27:36,167 --> 00:27:38,367
Speaker 2: great interview because at times he's a bit testy with Lee.

557
00:27:38,407 --> 00:27:39,807
Speaker 2: You can tell that he's been talking about this for

558
00:27:39,847 --> 00:27:41,607
Speaker 2: a long time now and he's kind of ready to

559
00:27:41,647 --> 00:27:42,327
Speaker 2: close the chapter.

560
00:27:42,367 --> 00:27:45,207
Speaker 1: Almost that's actually not true. So I was talking to

561
00:27:45,287 --> 00:27:48,967
Speaker 1: Lee about it, and I really liked that they left

562
00:27:49,007 --> 00:27:53,607
Speaker 1: in the little niggle where he says, actually, today is

563
00:27:53,767 --> 00:27:59,087
Speaker 1: the anniversary of Jethro's death, and he looks a little

564
00:27:59,087 --> 00:28:02,767
Speaker 1: bit stricken and she says, oh, I'm so sorry. I

565
00:28:02,767 --> 00:28:06,367
Speaker 1: didn't realize that it was today, and then he's like, look,

566
00:28:06,407 --> 00:28:08,887
Speaker 1: that's okay. I didn't expect it to come up so

567
00:28:09,007 --> 00:28:12,407
Speaker 1: early in the interview, and she said that that made

568
00:28:12,447 --> 00:28:15,287
Speaker 1: it seem like she'd kind of brought it up. Lee's

569
00:28:15,327 --> 00:28:17,727
Speaker 1: never defensive, and she wasn't being defensive, but she said,

570
00:28:18,087 --> 00:28:20,327
Speaker 1: what he was actually saying is that he is the

571
00:28:20,367 --> 00:28:22,727
Speaker 1: one that always brings it up now and that he

572
00:28:22,967 --> 00:28:24,807
Speaker 1: wants to talk about it all the time. And she

573
00:28:24,847 --> 00:28:27,287
Speaker 1: said he kept bringing it back to that. And one

574
00:28:27,327 --> 00:28:30,327
Speaker 1: of the most moving things was when he talked about,

575
00:28:30,367 --> 00:28:32,487
Speaker 1: as you said, the meaning that he finds in being

576
00:28:32,567 --> 00:28:35,287
Speaker 1: a father and a husband, and he said, and I'm

577
00:28:35,287 --> 00:28:36,207
Speaker 1: a grandfather now.

578
00:28:36,367 --> 00:28:40,607
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just been the most amazing experience. I

579
00:28:40,727 --> 00:28:43,927
Speaker 4: wasn't quite prepared for how much it would affect me.

580
00:28:45,047 --> 00:28:53,367
Speaker 4: This little guy's names Roman Roman Cave is such a

581
00:28:53,407 --> 00:28:57,687
Speaker 4: gorgeous looking little creature. I mean, it's extraordinary. It's made

582
00:28:57,687 --> 00:29:00,087
Speaker 4: me extra extraordinarily happy.

583
00:29:00,287 --> 00:29:03,127
Speaker 1: And the way that he says that I was just

584
00:29:03,207 --> 00:29:05,887
Speaker 1: in tears through this interview. It was really really beautiful.

585
00:29:05,887 --> 00:29:08,207
Speaker 2: And I didn't mean to suggest that Lee was at all,

586
00:29:08,247 --> 00:29:09,767
Speaker 2: But what I meant is I've listen to a lot

587
00:29:09,767 --> 00:29:12,327
Speaker 2: of conversations with him about this, and you can sort

588
00:29:12,327 --> 00:29:13,487
Speaker 2: of feel that he's.

589
00:29:13,367 --> 00:29:15,527
Speaker 1: Like, do you know the other thing that's interesting the

590
00:29:15,527 --> 00:29:17,687
Speaker 1: almost try to move through it. It wasn't touched on

591
00:29:17,927 --> 00:29:20,807
Speaker 1: in this, but I've heard him say before, because you're right,

592
00:29:20,807 --> 00:29:22,207
Speaker 1: it does come up, and how could it not come

593
00:29:22,287 --> 00:29:24,647
Speaker 1: up in every sort of long form interview that he does.

594
00:29:25,167 --> 00:29:27,247
Speaker 1: There's an interview that he did with Llui Throw where

595
00:29:27,447 --> 00:29:29,807
Speaker 1: it came up as well. That's a beautiful interview too.

596
00:29:30,647 --> 00:29:34,447
Speaker 1: But he said, I can talk about Arthur, but Jethrow,

597
00:29:34,527 --> 00:29:39,607
Speaker 1: who is his eldest son by his previous partner. Jethrow's

598
00:29:39,607 --> 00:29:43,087
Speaker 1: mother doesn't like me to talk about Jethrow. And he

599
00:29:43,207 --> 00:29:47,167
Speaker 1: said that's actually really difficult because Jethrow is my son too,

600
00:29:47,327 --> 00:29:49,927
Speaker 1: and I don't want it to seem like his death

601
00:29:49,927 --> 00:29:52,527
Speaker 1: affected me any less, but out of respect to her.

602
00:29:53,167 --> 00:29:55,087
Speaker 1: In the issuew Lee, he talks about Susie, his wife,

603
00:29:55,127 --> 00:29:58,087
Speaker 1: and Arthur's mother. He said a mother losing a child

604
00:29:58,207 --> 00:30:00,287
Speaker 1: is different to a father losing a child. And he

605
00:30:00,367 --> 00:30:04,807
Speaker 1: said I watched her just almost in toomb herself in

606
00:30:04,887 --> 00:30:07,127
Speaker 1: the dark in bed, not being able to get up,

607
00:30:07,647 --> 00:30:11,087
Speaker 1: and then he said watching her eventually rise from that

608
00:30:11,807 --> 00:30:15,847
Speaker 1: and get back to work and rejoin the world, he

609
00:30:15,927 --> 00:30:19,447
Speaker 1: said that was just an awe inspiring thing to see.

610
00:30:19,567 --> 00:30:22,967
Speaker 1: It was such, it's on my view. Go to it.

611
00:30:22,967 --> 00:30:23,647
Speaker 1: It's beautiful.

612
00:30:24,087 --> 00:30:27,327
Speaker 3: I want to recommend a podcast. I haven't listened to

613
00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:30,167
Speaker 3: a sort of podcast series in a very long.

614
00:30:30,007 --> 00:30:31,487
Speaker 1: Time at Limited Series.

615
00:30:31,607 --> 00:30:34,847
Speaker 3: Yeah, I came across it's called Hysterical and it's a

616
00:30:34,887 --> 00:30:37,567
Speaker 3: wondering podcast. And I've listened to the first five episodes,

617
00:30:37,607 --> 00:30:40,727
Speaker 3: which are all that are available so far, and I'm

618
00:30:40,887 --> 00:30:43,287
Speaker 3: really enjoying it. I'm sort of racing through it.

619
00:30:43,407 --> 00:30:43,767
Speaker 1: Need too.

620
00:30:44,087 --> 00:30:45,407
Speaker 2: I'm calling DIBs on this one.

621
00:30:45,567 --> 00:30:46,847
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so good.

622
00:30:47,087 --> 00:30:50,527
Speaker 1: In twenty eleven, something strange began to happen at the

623
00:30:50,607 --> 00:30:54,367
Speaker 1: high school and Leroy in New York. There was a

624
00:30:54,407 --> 00:30:57,647
Speaker 1: lot going on with these girls having outbursts.

625
00:30:58,007 --> 00:31:00,527
Speaker 3: Reporting more than a dozen girls at Leroy High School

626
00:31:00,607 --> 00:31:02,927
Speaker 3: say they have an illness that causes severe tics and

627
00:31:03,047 --> 00:31:03,887
Speaker 3: verbal outburst.

628
00:31:04,207 --> 00:31:05,847
Speaker 1: I was like my locker and came up to me

629
00:31:05,887 --> 00:31:08,687
Speaker 1: and she was like starting super bad. I'm like stucking around.

630
00:31:08,767 --> 00:31:14,247
Speaker 1: She's like I can't. I felt like Linda Blair in

631
00:31:14,287 --> 00:31:15,207
Speaker 1: The Exorcise.

632
00:31:16,727 --> 00:31:20,407
Speaker 3: It's about a mysterious illness that spread to a number

633
00:31:20,447 --> 00:31:24,087
Speaker 3: of high school girls in upstate New York. I remember

634
00:31:24,167 --> 00:31:24,927
Speaker 3: this story.

635
00:31:24,647 --> 00:31:28,407
Speaker 1: From the ticking during COVID.

636
00:31:28,247 --> 00:31:31,687
Speaker 3: No no, no before that. So it was like these girls

637
00:31:31,687 --> 00:31:36,727
Speaker 3: started exhibiting like spasms, siezures, ticks, and it was the

638
00:31:36,727 --> 00:31:40,727
Speaker 3: same kind of noises that they'd make, almost like tourette style, like.

639
00:31:40,807 --> 00:31:44,607
Speaker 1: You know, this happened during COVID as well around the world. Yeah, yeah, this.

640
00:31:44,447 --> 00:31:45,567
Speaker 2: Is in one little town.

641
00:31:45,887 --> 00:31:48,647
Speaker 3: This is in one little town called Leroy in the US,

642
00:31:49,447 --> 00:31:53,207
Speaker 3: And basically a bunch of psychiatrists looked at it and

643
00:31:53,247 --> 00:31:55,487
Speaker 3: then they had the state come in and examine what

644
00:31:55,567 --> 00:31:57,127
Speaker 3: was going on, and they put it down to like

645
00:31:57,127 --> 00:32:00,007
Speaker 3: a type of social contagion, sort of like you know

646
00:32:00,047 --> 00:32:03,607
Speaker 3: what teenage girls are, like they're a bit mad. Then

647
00:32:03,727 --> 00:32:06,167
Speaker 3: what happened is they started looking at like is there

648
00:32:06,167 --> 00:32:10,407
Speaker 3: an environmental explanation, And the podcast goes back, it looks

649
00:32:10,447 --> 00:32:12,647
Speaker 3: at the Salem witch trials. It looks at if there

650
00:32:12,687 --> 00:32:15,087
Speaker 3: was a similar thing going on there, why would these

651
00:32:15,087 --> 00:32:18,407
Speaker 3: symptoms come up? And then they look at you know,

652
00:32:18,447 --> 00:32:20,487
Speaker 3: it happened with a group of military men or men

653
00:32:20,527 --> 00:32:22,847
Speaker 3: who were deployed the other side of the world and

654
00:32:23,487 --> 00:32:26,407
Speaker 3: started coming up with these symptoms. It didn't make sense,

655
00:32:26,647 --> 00:32:30,847
Speaker 3: but that were clustered group hysteria. Yeah, so it's kind

656
00:32:30,887 --> 00:32:34,087
Speaker 3: of about mass hysteria and contagion and if there is

657
00:32:34,887 --> 00:32:38,007
Speaker 3: an explanation and I'm still not sure, but it even

658
00:32:38,047 --> 00:32:41,087
Speaker 3: involves Aaron Brockovich makes it an appearance because she came

659
00:32:41,127 --> 00:32:43,407
Speaker 3: in to check, you know, with zer something in the

660
00:32:43,407 --> 00:32:47,407
Speaker 3: water soccer field the water exactly? Was that it? And Yeah,

661
00:32:47,447 --> 00:32:50,847
Speaker 3: it's about women's health. It's about when you kind of

662
00:32:50,847 --> 00:32:53,247
Speaker 3: stop asking questions and what it means to say it's

663
00:32:53,287 --> 00:32:57,447
Speaker 3: all in your head. How dismissive women's women have always been. Yeah,

664
00:32:57,527 --> 00:32:58,407
Speaker 3: and I'm really interested.

665
00:32:58,487 --> 00:33:01,487
Speaker 2: It's all so funny. Like I'm really enjoying the podcast,

666
00:33:01,567 --> 00:33:04,847
Speaker 2: Like it sounds really serious. Really like the way he

667
00:33:04,887 --> 00:33:08,047
Speaker 2: tells the story is great. It's got humor, and he's

668
00:33:08,087 --> 00:33:10,407
Speaker 2: spoken to all these girls and all their parents and

669
00:33:10,447 --> 00:33:11,847
Speaker 2: it's just very satisfying.

670
00:33:11,967 --> 00:33:14,127
Speaker 3: I find I'm loving it.

671
00:33:14,167 --> 00:33:16,927
Speaker 2: For links to all our recommendations, you've got to be

672
00:33:16,967 --> 00:33:18,687
Speaker 2: signed up to the mom and Mia out Loud newsletter.

673
00:33:18,727 --> 00:33:20,567
Speaker 2: I often see out louders go in the Facebook group

674
00:33:20,607 --> 00:33:23,607
Speaker 2: and they're going, like, what was that show? What was

675
00:33:23,607 --> 00:33:26,647
Speaker 2: that thing? Just sign up for the newsletter and you

676
00:33:26,727 --> 00:33:29,247
Speaker 2: will get the links to all our recommendations as well

677
00:33:29,287 --> 00:33:31,687
Speaker 2: as lots of behind the scenes gossip and stuff from

678
00:33:31,727 --> 00:33:34,087
Speaker 2: our friend m Vernon. There's a link in the show

679
00:33:34,127 --> 00:33:34,887
Speaker 2: notes for how.

680
00:33:34,767 --> 00:33:35,407
Speaker 1: You do that.

681
00:33:37,927 --> 00:33:41,927
Speaker 3: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

682
00:33:41,927 --> 00:33:46,127
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Mom and Maya subscribers. Follow the

683
00:33:46,207 --> 00:33:48,007
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get us in your

684
00:33:48,087 --> 00:33:50,927
Speaker 3: ears five days a week. And a huge thank you

685
00:33:51,047 --> 00:34:03,487
Speaker 3: to all our current subscribers. It's time for our best

686
00:34:03,527 --> 00:34:05,047
Speaker 3: and worst of the week. This is a part of

687
00:34:05,087 --> 00:34:07,287
Speaker 3: the show where we share a little bit more from

688
00:34:07,327 --> 00:34:10,567
Speaker 3: our personal lives. Maya, what is your worst?

689
00:34:10,967 --> 00:34:13,287
Speaker 1: My worst is that I'm going to the Logis in

690
00:34:13,567 --> 00:34:16,047
Speaker 1: I think forty eight hours and I don't have anything to.

691
00:34:16,047 --> 00:34:19,847
Speaker 3: Waste my best. I'm so excited to the LOGI.

692
00:34:19,687 --> 00:34:21,807
Speaker 2: I want to know what you're I'm so obsessed with

693
00:34:21,847 --> 00:34:23,127
Speaker 2: the outfit journey.

694
00:34:22,967 --> 00:34:25,567
Speaker 3: Like what are the options of the options?

695
00:34:25,607 --> 00:34:28,167
Speaker 1: Like what? I don't mean to be rude. My worst

696
00:34:28,247 --> 00:34:30,447
Speaker 1: is going to the logis And that sounds very privileged

697
00:34:30,527 --> 00:34:33,047
Speaker 1: and ungrateful, but it's not my jam. I don't like

698
00:34:33,127 --> 00:34:36,087
Speaker 1: going to big, fancy things. I don't like going then

699
00:34:36,127 --> 00:34:38,407
Speaker 1: on a Sunday night, or actually any night.

700
00:34:38,687 --> 00:34:41,727
Speaker 3: Can I tell you that? I follow Laura Burn on

701
00:34:41,807 --> 00:34:43,687
Speaker 3: Instagram and this week she shared a story of her

702
00:34:43,807 --> 00:34:46,047
Speaker 3: at a very fancy dress shop in a ball gown,

703
00:34:46,087 --> 00:34:48,087
Speaker 3: being like getting ready for the logis, and I panicked

704
00:34:48,127 --> 00:34:49,767
Speaker 3: for you. I was like, Maya really needs to get

705
00:34:49,767 --> 00:34:51,887
Speaker 3: on a dress because Laura's really good. And Maya has

706
00:34:51,967 --> 00:34:52,967
Speaker 3: miss Laura on TV.

707
00:34:53,127 --> 00:34:56,207
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not on TV. May J. Yeah, she's on,

708
00:34:56,647 --> 00:35:00,927
Speaker 1: but Maddy J on TV. I don't know that on TV.

709
00:35:01,367 --> 00:35:03,847
Speaker 1: Really not on TV. I really I'm glad that Laura's

710
00:35:03,847 --> 00:35:05,287
Speaker 1: going to be there because that's another person I know.

711
00:35:05,367 --> 00:35:08,327
Speaker 2: But there's people I've seen My Instagram is wall to

712
00:35:08,367 --> 00:35:12,327
Speaker 2: wall people getting prosiegees, people get putting their face, musket

713
00:35:12,407 --> 00:35:15,687
Speaker 2: in their hair, like people have been gaming this for weeks.

714
00:35:15,447 --> 00:35:15,607
Speaker 1: You know.

715
00:35:15,727 --> 00:35:15,927
Speaker 3: I was.

716
00:35:16,087 --> 00:35:18,607
Speaker 1: So the reason I'm going out that is because Strife,

717
00:35:18,847 --> 00:35:22,807
Speaker 1: which I co produced, is nominated for Best Comedy, and

718
00:35:22,887 --> 00:35:25,167
Speaker 1: so I've been invited by Binge. I'm at the Binge

719
00:35:25,207 --> 00:35:28,807
Speaker 1: table going with Bruner, feeling very anxious about it. Anxious

720
00:35:28,807 --> 00:35:30,327
Speaker 1: because I feel like I'm gonna be bored because it

721
00:35:30,367 --> 00:35:32,647
Speaker 1: goes for six hours and it's just not my thing, right,

722
00:35:32,687 --> 00:35:34,967
Speaker 1: It's just not my thing. And then also it's a

723
00:35:35,127 --> 00:35:38,807
Speaker 1: very tricky wardrobe assignment. Not onl like your wedding, Jesse, on.

724
00:35:38,927 --> 00:35:41,407
Speaker 3: The invite to the logis because get your address, cod.

725
00:35:41,287 --> 00:35:43,527
Speaker 1: Probably says black tight. I mean it's black tight. Everyone

726
00:35:43,727 --> 00:35:46,447
Speaker 1: watched the logies. You've seen the logis. It's bloody fancy.

727
00:35:47,007 --> 00:35:49,207
Speaker 1: You don't get much fancy than the logis. As you say,

728
00:35:49,247 --> 00:35:52,607
Speaker 1: people have had things made. They're wearing ball gowns. Now,

729
00:35:53,167 --> 00:35:55,647
Speaker 1: there has never been more of a side character at

730
00:35:55,647 --> 00:35:58,927
Speaker 1: the logies than me. Right, Like, exactly why am I

731
00:35:58,967 --> 00:36:01,727
Speaker 1: going to the logis? It is not my night. I'm

732
00:36:01,727 --> 00:36:04,847
Speaker 1: like Asha Kenny, for example, nominated for gold Strife.

733
00:36:04,847 --> 00:36:06,567
Speaker 3: Do you know what she's wearing and chatting?

734
00:36:06,607 --> 00:36:08,727
Speaker 1: I forgot to ask. I just keep telling her I'm

735
00:36:08,727 --> 00:36:09,407
Speaker 1: worried about being.

736
00:36:09,767 --> 00:36:12,887
Speaker 3: So mayor what are your options?

737
00:36:13,007 --> 00:36:15,527
Speaker 1: Well, so what I was going to do is, you know,

738
00:36:15,607 --> 00:36:17,927
Speaker 1: with your wedding, Jesse. I went and tried on like

739
00:36:17,967 --> 00:36:20,087
Speaker 1: forty five different dresses. Literally, I think it was forty

740
00:36:20,087 --> 00:36:22,407
Speaker 1: five different dresses, and it was a whole thing. And

741
00:36:22,447 --> 00:36:23,887
Speaker 1: I put on Instagram and I was like, I'll do

742
00:36:23,967 --> 00:36:25,927
Speaker 1: that this time. It'll be great content. And then I went,

743
00:36:26,087 --> 00:36:28,647
Speaker 1: I can't be bothered, and so I didn't, and I

744
00:36:28,687 --> 00:36:31,007
Speaker 1: tried on two dresses last weekend I took photos of

745
00:36:31,087 --> 00:36:33,047
Speaker 1: them and I was like, I'll start making it. No,

746
00:36:33,207 --> 00:36:34,967
Speaker 1: I can't be bothered. I couldn't even be like even

747
00:36:34,967 --> 00:36:36,367
Speaker 1: those two dresses was too much.

748
00:36:36,487 --> 00:36:38,607
Speaker 3: So you're doing like a floor length number?

749
00:36:38,687 --> 00:36:39,487
Speaker 1: Is that my shopping?

750
00:36:39,527 --> 00:36:41,727
Speaker 2: Your closet is what you told So what we're doing

751
00:36:41,767 --> 00:36:43,247
Speaker 2: is we're trying on things from the closet.

752
00:36:43,287 --> 00:36:46,367
Speaker 1: Yeah, Sunday morning, binge, very kindly say more. Do you

753
00:36:46,487 --> 00:36:48,687
Speaker 1: want to come and have your hair and makeup done?

754
00:36:48,887 --> 00:36:51,087
Speaker 1: That's my other worst nightmare. We've got a slot for

755
00:36:51,127 --> 00:36:53,887
Speaker 1: you at eight thirty am. I was like, what time

756
00:36:53,887 --> 00:36:56,567
Speaker 1: do you have to be it? I don't know, Okay,

757
00:36:56,767 --> 00:36:58,727
Speaker 1: I want to know all. You know what. My first

758
00:36:58,727 --> 00:37:00,607
Speaker 1: thing whenever I'm asked anywhere, the first thing I asked,

759
00:37:00,607 --> 00:37:01,527
Speaker 1: what time can I go home?

760
00:37:01,567 --> 00:37:04,407
Speaker 3: And well, I'm not vain, but you need to get

761
00:37:04,407 --> 00:37:06,887
Speaker 3: a hair made. No tell me that you're not doing

762
00:37:06,927 --> 00:37:07,407
Speaker 3: a stand up.

763
00:37:07,447 --> 00:37:07,967
Speaker 1: Of course I am.

764
00:37:08,047 --> 00:37:10,847
Speaker 3: Of course I couldn't stand you can't do hair.

765
00:37:12,327 --> 00:37:14,447
Speaker 1: You're getting my hairmake up done at eight thirty. Why

766
00:37:14,887 --> 00:37:16,167
Speaker 1: you are a box of hair.

767
00:37:16,367 --> 00:37:18,407
Speaker 2: This is why you're an enigma wrapped in a riddle,

768
00:37:18,487 --> 00:37:21,407
Speaker 2: Mere Friedman. Because one of the things people think when

769
00:37:21,447 --> 00:37:24,447
Speaker 2: they think mere freedman? Is they do think fashion, don't right? Yeah?

770
00:37:24,887 --> 00:37:27,247
Speaker 2: They know you love clothes. Yep, they know you do.

771
00:37:27,647 --> 00:37:29,647
Speaker 2: You would imagine that for a lot of people who

772
00:37:29,727 --> 00:37:33,327
Speaker 2: love clothes. Yes, this is their like everything that you

773
00:37:33,407 --> 00:37:36,247
Speaker 2: are pull the joy. It's a stylist is like, can

774
00:37:36,287 --> 00:37:36,807
Speaker 2: I address you?

775
00:37:36,847 --> 00:37:41,047
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, let because I can't be bothered. It's

776
00:37:41,087 --> 00:37:42,647
Speaker 1: boring to me. It's not interesting.

777
00:37:42,727 --> 00:37:44,447
Speaker 3: Can you wear eyelashes? You can't go to the.

778
00:37:47,607 --> 00:37:52,127
Speaker 2: Bother explain over the makeup art is Lucy? Who does

779
00:37:52,127 --> 00:37:52,807
Speaker 2: this for the show.

780
00:37:52,887 --> 00:37:56,607
Speaker 1: I just don't want to. I'm going to leave and

781
00:37:56,647 --> 00:37:58,967
Speaker 1: get there late. No one is looking at me. You

782
00:37:58,967 --> 00:38:01,207
Speaker 1: know when you and you're going to let, no one

783
00:38:01,247 --> 00:38:02,127
Speaker 1: is looking at you.

784
00:38:02,127 --> 00:38:03,087
Speaker 2: You're representing us.

785
00:38:03,127 --> 00:38:05,567
Speaker 1: Can you imagine my worst nightmare, which I'm also having

786
00:38:05,607 --> 00:38:08,727
Speaker 1: anxiety about, if someone grabs me and says, will you

787
00:38:08,807 --> 00:38:10,047
Speaker 1: be on that spinny thing?

788
00:38:10,487 --> 00:38:14,127
Speaker 3: So people, I'll give you one hundred dollars if you get.

789
00:38:15,527 --> 00:38:16,007
Speaker 2: I should just.

790
00:38:16,087 --> 00:38:18,927
Speaker 1: March up and leap onto the spinny thing. You know,

791
00:38:18,927 --> 00:38:20,407
Speaker 1: when you're at home and you're watching the logos and

792
00:38:20,447 --> 00:38:21,887
Speaker 1: you're like, who the fuck is that?

793
00:38:23,287 --> 00:38:25,967
Speaker 3: Please get on the spinny You're being a drain.

794
00:38:26,167 --> 00:38:30,287
Speaker 2: I need you to lift a radiator for the logies.

795
00:38:30,327 --> 00:38:33,567
Speaker 1: It's so true as I'm going to be back on

796
00:38:33,647 --> 00:38:35,887
Speaker 1: Monday with all the gossip.

797
00:38:35,927 --> 00:38:38,767
Speaker 3: And may are speaking of the logis you can still vote?

798
00:38:38,967 --> 00:38:39,647
Speaker 1: You can that.

799
00:38:39,887 --> 00:38:41,927
Speaker 3: I'm not going to say lines are still open, but

800
00:38:42,527 --> 00:38:43,487
Speaker 3: we'll have a Lincoln.

801
00:38:43,887 --> 00:38:46,327
Speaker 1: Keep Online online kind of line.

802
00:38:46,447 --> 00:38:48,887
Speaker 2: I want to say the lines are still open. Good.

803
00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:51,567
Speaker 3: If you want to see me, are looking revolting on

804
00:38:51,687 --> 00:38:53,087
Speaker 3: stage after winning?

805
00:38:53,487 --> 00:38:56,407
Speaker 1: Yes, loud as, if you want to see me in

806
00:38:56,487 --> 00:38:59,727
Speaker 1: real time trying to get an uber? Actually what am

807
00:38:59,727 --> 00:39:01,527
Speaker 1: I talking about? I will drive because I'm only going

808
00:39:01,607 --> 00:39:02,367
Speaker 1: to have one drink.

809
00:39:03,327 --> 00:39:04,767
Speaker 3: If you want to see me or in a tracksuit,

810
00:39:05,127 --> 00:39:08,047
Speaker 3: a shiny face and bad hair. Yeah, we need to win.

811
00:39:08,607 --> 00:39:10,207
Speaker 3: Needs to win, needs to win. So it's in the

812
00:39:10,207 --> 00:39:13,047
Speaker 3: comedy category. And why are you there but for Asher? Yeah,

813
00:39:13,127 --> 00:39:13,607
Speaker 3: for the gold.

814
00:39:13,807 --> 00:39:14,407
Speaker 1: What's your best?

815
00:39:14,767 --> 00:39:15,887
Speaker 2: Come on, cheer up, Dob.

816
00:39:16,247 --> 00:39:21,567
Speaker 1: My best is my youngest child turned sixteen this week

817
00:39:21,687 --> 00:39:23,607
Speaker 1: and we went out for a family dinner, which you

818
00:39:23,607 --> 00:39:25,967
Speaker 1: didn't come to, Jesse because you had to babysit your

819
00:39:26,007 --> 00:39:30,207
Speaker 1: own child. What do you call it? Anyway, we did

820
00:39:30,527 --> 00:39:33,887
Speaker 1: and it was so No, she's not in the family

821
00:39:33,927 --> 00:39:36,567
Speaker 1: group chat. We do have one group chat. No, she's

822
00:39:36,607 --> 00:39:40,407
Speaker 1: in the family group chat. I just love this age.

823
00:39:40,687 --> 00:39:42,847
Speaker 1: You know, I've written a lot about the sadness of

824
00:39:42,887 --> 00:39:46,527
Speaker 1: your children growing up, particularly your sons and leaving you,

825
00:39:46,567 --> 00:39:48,847
Speaker 1: and it bang sad and everything. And I'm now kind

826
00:39:48,847 --> 00:39:52,007
Speaker 1: of at this stage where all my kids are at

827
00:39:52,047 --> 00:39:54,567
Speaker 1: that age where they're kind of I'm going to get

828
00:39:54,567 --> 00:40:01,887
Speaker 1: into seud of trouble saying this my mates disgusting. I'm sorry,

829
00:40:03,247 --> 00:40:07,367
Speaker 1: just kick her out at the group just burping into

830
00:40:07,407 --> 00:40:14,447
Speaker 1: the microphone to go home anyway. Sorry, I like, you know,

831
00:40:14,567 --> 00:40:18,567
Speaker 1: I'm really tired of bearing him. It's been twenty eight

832
00:40:18,647 --> 00:40:22,007
Speaker 1: years and now I feel like my youngest is sixteen.

833
00:40:22,127 --> 00:40:23,967
Speaker 1: I know I'm not over the finish line yet, but

834
00:40:24,047 --> 00:40:27,167
Speaker 1: it just feels like it's just at a good age.

835
00:40:27,207 --> 00:40:28,767
Speaker 1: You know, you can swear in front of them, you

836
00:40:28,807 --> 00:40:32,367
Speaker 1: can kind of just it's good. I love him. He's

837
00:40:32,487 --> 00:40:34,687
Speaker 1: very drive. Someone has to not me. I'm the worst

838
00:40:34,727 --> 00:40:37,847
Speaker 1: driving the family. But it's lovely. They're like, my kids

839
00:40:37,887 --> 00:40:39,687
Speaker 1: are my favorite people to hang out with, apart from

840
00:40:39,687 --> 00:40:42,407
Speaker 1: YouTube witches. They really I love hanging out with them.

841
00:40:42,447 --> 00:40:43,967
Speaker 1: They're just good fun. They're funny.

842
00:40:44,127 --> 00:40:45,487
Speaker 2: Did you have a really nice dinner.

843
00:40:45,647 --> 00:40:46,767
Speaker 1: We had a really nice dinner.

844
00:40:46,847 --> 00:40:49,127
Speaker 2: Yet there's Rabbil like food the way that looksal likes food.

845
00:40:49,527 --> 00:40:50,887
Speaker 2: Some of you like food and some of you not

846
00:40:50,927 --> 00:40:51,247
Speaker 2: as much.

847
00:40:51,287 --> 00:40:55,007
Speaker 1: Remi likes fragrance. Yeah, that's right. Luca used to like

848
00:40:55,127 --> 00:40:58,727
Speaker 1: food but now sort of doesn't really care. Holly, what's

849
00:40:58,767 --> 00:41:00,207
Speaker 1: your worst of the way, Okay.

850
00:40:59,927 --> 00:41:01,927
Speaker 2: It's a bit grim. You can probably tell from like

851
00:41:02,007 --> 00:41:05,527
Speaker 2: my Nick gave recommendation. I'm feeling very nihilistic point of

852
00:41:05,527 --> 00:41:08,447
Speaker 2: it all, you know. It's a bit like that meaning,

853
00:41:08,487 --> 00:41:12,927
Speaker 2: But my best are related. So my worst is being

854
00:41:12,967 --> 00:41:14,527
Speaker 2: far from my parents. I know this is like a

855
00:41:14,527 --> 00:41:17,407
Speaker 2: recurring theme because okay, I have been living far from

856
00:41:17,407 --> 00:41:21,007
Speaker 2: them for oh like twenty five maybe nearly thirty years.

857
00:41:21,007 --> 00:41:24,767
Speaker 2: But anyway, they're getting old, as I've discussed because I

858
00:41:24,807 --> 00:41:26,487
Speaker 2: went home earlier this year for my dad's eliath. But

859
00:41:26,527 --> 00:41:28,447
Speaker 2: they're at the moment things are happening that are just

860
00:41:28,487 --> 00:41:31,447
Speaker 2: not great, and it's just hard, right, It's really hard.

861
00:41:31,807 --> 00:41:34,007
Speaker 2: It's hard to feel helpless at a distance. It's hard

862
00:41:34,047 --> 00:41:36,727
Speaker 2: to not want to like jump in and order it,

863
00:41:36,847 --> 00:41:37,487
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.

864
00:41:37,567 --> 00:41:38,487
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can't.

865
00:41:39,007 --> 00:41:41,367
Speaker 2: Lots of my friends because I've got quite a lot

866
00:41:41,367 --> 00:41:45,007
Speaker 2: of friends, particularly Sydney friends who are from other places,

867
00:41:45,047 --> 00:41:46,967
Speaker 2: and that a lot of them are having these similar things.

868
00:41:47,047 --> 00:41:49,927
Speaker 2: And I've spoken before about the plane dashes they have

869
00:41:49,967 --> 00:41:52,287
Speaker 2: to make, but one of the things too is that

870
00:41:52,527 --> 00:41:55,567
Speaker 2: often their siblings will be back where they are and

871
00:41:55,687 --> 00:41:58,967
Speaker 2: having to take on caring responsibilities, and it's hard to

872
00:41:59,007 --> 00:42:02,687
Speaker 2: not be there. And also this kind of weird tension

873
00:42:02,887 --> 00:42:05,807
Speaker 2: about like how involved can you be, how much can

874
00:42:05,847 --> 00:42:12,487
Speaker 2: you control or suggest it's really hard watching them through

875
00:42:12,927 --> 00:42:18,327
Speaker 2: a phone screen, like just not being great. And I'm

876
00:42:18,327 --> 00:42:21,647
Speaker 2: finding that very difficult. And it's interesting because obviously a

877
00:42:21,647 --> 00:42:24,007
Speaker 2: lot of the content are making for mid at the

878
00:42:24,007 --> 00:42:26,167
Speaker 2: moment is about that kind of stage of life.

879
00:42:26,247 --> 00:42:29,367
Speaker 1: So it's like a remote sandwich, like the Sandwich generation,

880
00:42:29,567 --> 00:42:30,927
Speaker 1: but a remote sandwich.

881
00:42:31,007 --> 00:42:33,447
Speaker 2: And also it's hard because you know, I'm not always

882
00:42:33,487 --> 00:42:36,647
Speaker 2: very good at like making decisions to action, very unlike

883
00:42:36,687 --> 00:42:39,247
Speaker 2: me who's very good at decisions to action. But like

884
00:42:40,167 --> 00:42:42,687
Speaker 2: it really is perplexing to know what the right thing

885
00:42:42,767 --> 00:42:44,487
Speaker 2: to do is because you can't be on a plane

886
00:42:44,527 --> 00:42:48,967
Speaker 2: every week. Obviously you can't tell grown up people what

887
00:42:49,087 --> 00:42:50,727
Speaker 2: to do, you know what I mean, Like you can't

888
00:42:50,767 --> 00:42:52,327
Speaker 2: say I think this and I think that, and also

889
00:42:52,447 --> 00:42:54,327
Speaker 2: you don't know you're not there all the time, Like

890
00:42:55,047 --> 00:42:58,207
Speaker 2: it's perplexing to make decisions that you can feel comfortable

891
00:42:58,247 --> 00:43:01,287
Speaker 2: and confident about. You can't plan too far into the

892
00:43:01,287 --> 00:43:05,287
Speaker 2: future because you don't know how things are going to be,

893
00:43:05,287 --> 00:43:07,887
Speaker 2: because generally speaking, things don't tend to get a lot

894
00:43:07,967 --> 00:43:09,487
Speaker 2: better when it comes to There.

895
00:43:09,447 --> 00:43:11,967
Speaker 1: Was a beautiful newsletter that I sent to you whole

896
00:43:12,127 --> 00:43:15,287
Speaker 1: that was written by an out louder called Ruth Divine

897
00:43:15,407 --> 00:43:20,087
Speaker 1: and her newsletters called bearwith She's also English and her

898
00:43:20,367 --> 00:43:23,247
Speaker 1: mother recently passed away in the UK, and she wrote

899
00:43:23,287 --> 00:43:26,127
Speaker 1: about what that felt like, and I was like, I

900
00:43:26,167 --> 00:43:27,727
Speaker 1: didn't know whether to send it to you or not,

901
00:43:28,607 --> 00:43:31,767
Speaker 1: but I thought ultimately it might be helpful, and I

902
00:43:31,807 --> 00:43:35,407
Speaker 1: thought she articulated it really BEAUTI with me, absolutely beautiful,

903
00:43:35,447 --> 00:43:37,847
Speaker 1: because I think it's such a difficult thing.

904
00:43:38,167 --> 00:43:41,647
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying it's not any more difficult. In fact,

905
00:43:41,687 --> 00:43:43,967
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's a lot less difficult than caring for

906
00:43:44,047 --> 00:43:46,447
Speaker 2: elderly parents or worrying about elderly parents who are down

907
00:43:46,447 --> 00:43:47,047
Speaker 2: the road.

908
00:43:46,847 --> 00:43:47,847
Speaker 1: And a different type.

909
00:43:47,887 --> 00:43:50,287
Speaker 2: And that's also part of it, because then there's also guilt.

910
00:43:50,487 --> 00:43:52,847
Speaker 2: You're also dealing with quite a bit of guilt about

911
00:43:52,887 --> 00:43:55,007
Speaker 2: like the choices you made that landed you there and

912
00:43:55,047 --> 00:43:57,887
Speaker 2: all that stuff. But my best is the flip side

913
00:43:57,927 --> 00:44:00,287
Speaker 2: of that, right, it's the wisdom from the women who've

914
00:44:00,287 --> 00:44:03,207
Speaker 2: been there before in lots of ways. So one of

915
00:44:03,247 --> 00:44:05,767
Speaker 2: the things was I spoke to Kylie Gillies on mid

916
00:44:05,767 --> 00:44:08,367
Speaker 2: this week. She lives in New South Wales and her

917
00:44:08,407 --> 00:44:13,087
Speaker 2: parents living Quisland, and during the COVID lockdowns, her father

918
00:44:13,207 --> 00:44:17,127
Speaker 2: died and she couldn't be there and her sister, she's

919
00:44:17,167 --> 00:44:19,727
Speaker 2: one of two girls, and her sister has been the

920
00:44:19,767 --> 00:44:22,447
Speaker 2: person who's doing all the caring for their parents. And

921
00:44:22,487 --> 00:44:24,447
Speaker 2: I asked her, I said, what's your best advice for

922
00:44:24,567 --> 00:44:29,527
Speaker 2: like long distance caring? And she said, the sibling who's

923
00:44:29,527 --> 00:44:32,167
Speaker 2: on the grounds their job to do the caring for

924
00:44:32,207 --> 00:44:34,527
Speaker 2: the parents right and do the things they need to do.

925
00:44:34,967 --> 00:44:37,967
Speaker 2: Your job is to support them, to support the care.

926
00:44:38,407 --> 00:44:41,567
Speaker 2: You're caring for the care. So it's quite an easy

927
00:44:41,607 --> 00:44:44,327
Speaker 2: trap to fall into. I think to call your sister

928
00:44:44,407 --> 00:44:46,967
Speaker 2: brother whatever and be like you should be doing this

929
00:44:47,047 --> 00:44:48,607
Speaker 2: and why aren't you doing that? And I think they

930
00:44:48,647 --> 00:44:50,447
Speaker 2: should be doing this, and da da da da da.

931
00:44:50,527 --> 00:44:53,487
Speaker 2: She's like, that's not your place because you're not there.

932
00:44:53,687 --> 00:44:55,807
Speaker 2: You should be the one who they can call and

933
00:44:55,847 --> 00:44:58,927
Speaker 2: blow off steam to. You're the one who helps how

934
00:44:58,927 --> 00:45:01,887
Speaker 2: you can, whether that's financially or emotionally, supporting the person

935
00:45:01,887 --> 00:45:03,967
Speaker 2: who's doing all the caring. I thought that was really

936
00:45:04,007 --> 00:45:06,247
Speaker 2: good advice. Yeah, and I've shared that with a few

937
00:45:06,247 --> 00:45:09,127
Speaker 2: of my friends, and some of my friends are the

938
00:45:09,327 --> 00:45:11,327
Speaker 2: person who's doing the caring. And I was saying, this

939
00:45:11,367 --> 00:45:12,927
Speaker 2: is what you need to tell your sibling that you

940
00:45:13,007 --> 00:45:15,087
Speaker 2: need from them. So I think that was very good advice.

941
00:45:15,727 --> 00:45:17,967
Speaker 2: But also I was talking to a good maid of

942
00:45:18,007 --> 00:45:21,847
Speaker 2: mine yesterday who has lost her dad and is, you know,

943
00:45:21,927 --> 00:45:24,367
Speaker 2: going through watching her mom. You know, it's such an

944
00:45:24,367 --> 00:45:28,087
Speaker 2: awful word to say, decline, but don't decline, right. I

945
00:45:28,087 --> 00:45:30,287
Speaker 2: think her mantra is be nice to your mom and

946
00:45:30,287 --> 00:45:32,527
Speaker 2: eat the truffles and what she means by that, and

947
00:45:32,607 --> 00:45:33,207
Speaker 2: I think it's the.

948
00:45:33,167 --> 00:45:34,327
Speaker 1: Best advice ever. Right.

949
00:45:35,207 --> 00:45:37,447
Speaker 2: Be nice to your mom is an umbrella term that

950
00:45:37,487 --> 00:45:39,847
Speaker 2: doesn't just mean literally be nice to your mom, but

951
00:45:39,967 --> 00:45:42,127
Speaker 2: it means make the call you don't want to make.

952
00:45:42,167 --> 00:45:44,487
Speaker 2: It's what we were talking about about caring the other week,

953
00:45:44,567 --> 00:45:46,847
Speaker 2: not last week, but recently, Jesse. When you were talking

954
00:45:46,847 --> 00:45:50,887
Speaker 2: about feeling guilty sometimes that you haven't called Simon or

955
00:45:50,927 --> 00:45:53,527
Speaker 2: done whatever. It's like, be nice your mom just broadly

956
00:45:53,567 --> 00:45:56,207
Speaker 2: means like do the right thing as much as you can,

957
00:45:56,567 --> 00:46:00,887
Speaker 2: like do make those calls. It is sometimes boring and

958
00:46:00,927 --> 00:46:05,047
Speaker 2: difficult talking to people who are elderly or sick or

959
00:46:05,047 --> 00:46:06,807
Speaker 2: all those things, but you know, be nice to your

960
00:46:06,847 --> 00:46:09,407
Speaker 2: mom and then eat the truffles. Part is about you,

961
00:46:09,487 --> 00:46:13,207
Speaker 2: and it's about being kind to yourself. The reason that's

962
00:46:13,247 --> 00:46:16,247
Speaker 2: my friend's mantra is that she loves trouble Now and

963
00:46:16,327 --> 00:46:18,647
Speaker 2: she's like, I shouldn't eat the truffles, but I'm going

964
00:46:18,687 --> 00:46:20,607
Speaker 2: to eat the truffles, and I'm like, it's like being

965
00:46:20,687 --> 00:46:23,607
Speaker 2: kind to yourself. Whether it's having that glass of wine.

966
00:46:23,727 --> 00:46:25,767
Speaker 2: I mean, I know that's not a healthy crutch, but

967
00:46:25,887 --> 00:46:28,967
Speaker 2: you know, or letting yourself go on that weekend.

968
00:46:28,607 --> 00:46:30,527
Speaker 1: Away or whatever. It is, like look after yourself and.

969
00:46:30,487 --> 00:46:33,607
Speaker 2: Be nice to your mum is probably the best advice

970
00:46:33,687 --> 00:46:35,007
Speaker 2: because you don't know what's going to happen.

971
00:46:35,007 --> 00:46:35,407
Speaker 1: It's great.

972
00:46:35,567 --> 00:46:38,687
Speaker 2: That's yeah, that's where I've landed this week. Jesse Stevens

973
00:46:38,727 --> 00:46:39,447
Speaker 2: cheer us all up.

974
00:46:39,807 --> 00:46:42,207
Speaker 3: I like that a lot. Well, my worst isn't that cheery.

975
00:46:42,287 --> 00:46:44,927
Speaker 3: But you know how earlier this week we're talking about

976
00:46:45,127 --> 00:46:50,087
Speaker 3: panic attacks and talking about Carrie and Nate. Weirdly, this week,

977
00:46:50,167 --> 00:46:52,447
Speaker 3: I was recording an episode of podcasts, not this one,

978
00:46:52,687 --> 00:46:56,647
Speaker 3: and I felt myself panicking, and I reckon, I've recorded thousands,

979
00:46:56,727 --> 00:46:58,967
Speaker 3: thousands of podcasts over eight years and years and years,

980
00:46:58,967 --> 00:47:01,407
Speaker 3: and I went, oh, I can actually feel it, and

981
00:47:01,447 --> 00:47:04,327
Speaker 3: I I felt really anxious. It's funny because when I

982
00:47:04,367 --> 00:47:06,287
Speaker 3: was reading about this story too, I wondered if there

983
00:47:06,327 --> 00:47:08,287
Speaker 3: was a contagious element to it, because you know how

984
00:47:08,327 --> 00:47:11,447
Speaker 3: it's sometimes this of the prospect of the panic attack. Yeah,

985
00:47:11,487 --> 00:47:15,047
Speaker 3: that can kind of trigger you. But for some reason,

986
00:47:15,087 --> 00:47:16,927
Speaker 3: I was just in this context and the whole thing

987
00:47:16,967 --> 00:47:19,207
Speaker 3: with podcasting, and maybe this is why I've enjoyed it

988
00:47:19,207 --> 00:47:22,327
Speaker 3: and leant into it, is that less so than TV,

989
00:47:22,487 --> 00:47:24,567
Speaker 3: I think you have to be very in the moment,

990
00:47:24,727 --> 00:47:27,447
Speaker 3: Like you have to be very focused, and you can't

991
00:47:27,447 --> 00:47:30,927
Speaker 3: spiral because you have to be having a present conversation

992
00:47:31,007 --> 00:47:33,647
Speaker 3: that is unfolding at a rapid rate. In this moment,

993
00:47:34,087 --> 00:47:36,727
Speaker 3: I just felt this, like this has to be good.

994
00:47:36,767 --> 00:47:38,687
Speaker 3: This isn't good enough. You're not doing a good job,

995
00:47:38,727 --> 00:47:41,007
Speaker 3: this isn't going very well, be better, be better, And

996
00:47:41,047 --> 00:47:42,887
Speaker 3: then I was pulling myself out of it, which makes

997
00:47:42,927 --> 00:47:45,727
Speaker 3: it impossible to actually be plugged in and paying attention,

998
00:47:46,447 --> 00:47:49,447
Speaker 3: and it was so uncomfortable. I managed to kind of

999
00:47:49,607 --> 00:47:51,927
Speaker 3: get back into it, but it was just funny that

1000
00:47:51,967 --> 00:47:52,847
Speaker 3: in light of did.

1001
00:47:52,767 --> 00:47:55,447
Speaker 1: You stop and say I just need a minute because

1002
00:47:55,447 --> 00:47:58,367
Speaker 1: it's not live podcasting, I mean we recorded as live, but.

1003
00:47:58,527 --> 00:48:01,687
Speaker 3: I needly did, which is I've said that a few times,

1004
00:48:01,687 --> 00:48:04,527
Speaker 3: and I reckon when I'm podcasting, I'm like, oh, I

1005
00:48:04,527 --> 00:48:06,647
Speaker 3: could really do with thirty seconds just to myself to

1006
00:48:06,727 --> 00:48:09,967
Speaker 3: kind of because I reckon, it's aboutating just right, But

1007
00:48:10,007 --> 00:48:12,047
Speaker 3: I actually did what. I was listening to a podcast

1008
00:48:12,047 --> 00:48:14,447
Speaker 3: recently with a psychologist I love, who said when that

1009
00:48:14,527 --> 00:48:17,607
Speaker 3: happens and you start to I think they call it

1010
00:48:17,647 --> 00:48:20,167
Speaker 3: like depersonalization, like where you feel as though you're kind

1011
00:48:20,167 --> 00:48:22,687
Speaker 3: of being pulled out of the most Yeah, and it

1012
00:48:22,727 --> 00:48:25,727
Speaker 3: can happen with social anxiety. Whoever you're talking to, if

1013
00:48:25,727 --> 00:48:28,727
Speaker 3: you feel like you're losing kind of touch with the situation,

1014
00:48:28,807 --> 00:48:30,407
Speaker 3: you have to just focus on a tiny bit of

1015
00:48:30,407 --> 00:48:33,567
Speaker 3: their face, like focus on their nose, or focus on

1016
00:48:33,647 --> 00:48:36,767
Speaker 3: their just something very much in front of you that

1017
00:48:36,887 --> 00:48:40,727
Speaker 3: will kind of hold reorient you into the moment, and

1018
00:48:40,767 --> 00:48:43,087
Speaker 3: I actually found that that did help and kind of

1019
00:48:43,127 --> 00:48:48,367
Speaker 3: stopped all the nosy thoughts. My best has been that

1020
00:48:48,487 --> 00:48:51,407
Speaker 3: my mum at the moment is doing Mondays and Wednesdays

1021
00:48:51,407 --> 00:48:54,447
Speaker 3: with a Luna and walking in like after my day

1022
00:48:54,487 --> 00:48:55,967
Speaker 3: when Mum and Luna have had that, and I know

1023
00:48:56,007 --> 00:48:58,967
Speaker 3: they've got their secrets, they think, I don't know that

1024
00:48:59,087 --> 00:49:06,007
Speaker 3: someone's having hot chips, and it's just such a joy.

1025
00:49:06,207 --> 00:49:08,367
Speaker 3: And then on there's another day that may or you

1026
00:49:08,407 --> 00:49:11,727
Speaker 3: have Luna. And last week you had Luna and Lucra

1027
00:49:11,767 --> 00:49:13,807
Speaker 3: and I work that day and we found an hour

1028
00:49:13,847 --> 00:49:16,167
Speaker 3: in the afternoon and we looked at each other and

1029
00:49:16,207 --> 00:49:18,527
Speaker 3: we went, let's go get a cocktail and we went

1030
00:49:18,567 --> 00:49:21,887
Speaker 3: up to the pub. Well, you had Luna and sat

1031
00:49:22,327 --> 00:49:25,087
Speaker 3: with each other and I had a margerator and it

1032
00:49:25,167 --> 00:49:28,367
Speaker 3: was just the best afternoon, like to actually just have

1033
00:49:28,527 --> 00:49:29,607
Speaker 3: that moment.

1034
00:49:30,327 --> 00:49:30,527
Speaker 2: You know.

1035
00:49:30,567 --> 00:49:33,607
Speaker 3: It's funny the gratitude thing, and I've always been very

1036
00:49:33,647 --> 00:49:36,167
Speaker 3: bad at that, but I must say I have never

1037
00:49:36,207 --> 00:49:41,567
Speaker 3: been more grateful for like family and seemingly not those

1038
00:49:42,167 --> 00:49:45,487
Speaker 3: you know, massive shiny things, but just being able to

1039
00:49:45,567 --> 00:49:49,287
Speaker 3: come home and go my relationship with my grandmother's was

1040
00:49:49,767 --> 00:49:51,167
Speaker 3: one of the greatest joys of my life and to

1041
00:49:51,207 --> 00:49:54,367
Speaker 3: see that that gets perpetuated is just such sure, the best,

1042
00:49:54,727 --> 00:49:55,767
Speaker 3: the best thing ever.

1043
00:49:55,927 --> 00:49:58,647
Speaker 1: And after Luna this week as well, which was just

1044
00:49:58,847 --> 00:50:00,287
Speaker 1: hilarious and delightful.

1045
00:50:00,567 --> 00:50:03,127
Speaker 3: Yeah, look the people being called on to babysit.

1046
00:50:03,767 --> 00:50:06,127
Speaker 1: And I love how it's only when you babysit a

1047
00:50:06,247 --> 00:50:09,647
Speaker 1: child that you get a relationship with them because one on one, Yeah,

1048
00:50:09,687 --> 00:50:12,167
Speaker 1: one on one, because otherwise you're always the B team.

1049
00:50:12,607 --> 00:50:14,727
Speaker 1: If someone else, like if I was only spent time

1050
00:50:14,727 --> 00:50:17,607
Speaker 1: with Luna around you, Jesse, I would never be the

1051
00:50:17,647 --> 00:50:19,887
Speaker 1: A team because it's you're the A team. But when

1052
00:50:19,887 --> 00:50:21,887
Speaker 1: there's no one else there, I'm the A team. And

1053
00:50:21,887 --> 00:50:24,127
Speaker 1: then when I'm not there, Jase became the A team

1054
00:50:24,167 --> 00:50:27,487
Speaker 1: and it was so nice, gorgeous.

1055
00:50:27,927 --> 00:50:32,487
Speaker 3: Speaking of families and people managing careers, babies, we actually

1056
00:50:32,567 --> 00:50:35,247
Speaker 3: had a very interesting conversation as part of a subscriber

1057
00:50:35,287 --> 00:50:39,727
Speaker 3: episode this week. It was all about a particular celebrities

1058
00:50:39,967 --> 00:50:44,687
Speaker 3: divorce dilemma. So she has separated from her partner and

1059
00:50:44,727 --> 00:50:48,727
Speaker 3: in an interview basically said despite all her status, all

1060
00:50:48,727 --> 00:50:52,767
Speaker 3: her money, all her capital, she fell into the trap

1061
00:50:52,807 --> 00:50:54,807
Speaker 3: that a lot of women do in terms of having

1062
00:50:54,807 --> 00:50:57,287
Speaker 3: all the domestic label while also making all the money.

1063
00:50:57,647 --> 00:50:59,967
Speaker 3: And we looked at the question as well of whether

1064
00:51:00,487 --> 00:51:04,247
Speaker 3: when you have small children you can both have big jobs.

1065
00:51:04,407 --> 00:51:05,487
Speaker 3: It's very interesting.

1066
00:51:05,567 --> 00:51:07,047
Speaker 1: We'll put a link in the show notes. You can

1067
00:51:07,127 --> 00:51:08,087
Speaker 1: listen right now.

1068
00:51:09,287 --> 00:51:11,887
Speaker 2: It's all we've got time for today and this week.

1069
00:51:12,007 --> 00:51:14,487
Speaker 2: A big thank you to all of you out louders

1070
00:51:14,527 --> 00:51:15,967
Speaker 2: for listening to today's show.

1071
00:51:16,247 --> 00:51:17,327
Speaker 1: I hope you're.

1072
00:51:17,127 --> 00:51:19,487
Speaker 2: All going to be watching the log He's on Sunday

1073
00:51:19,527 --> 00:51:20,367
Speaker 2: so we can see me.

1074
00:51:21,167 --> 00:51:23,807
Speaker 1: Can you imagine if I had to get up on stage, like,

1075
00:51:23,847 --> 00:51:25,247
Speaker 1: if we win, do you.

1076
00:51:25,207 --> 00:51:26,687
Speaker 3: Have to get a fo God?

1077
00:51:26,767 --> 00:51:29,647
Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought about that. I had because I'm like,

1078
00:51:29,687 --> 00:51:31,847
Speaker 1: I just want to wear trainers, Like can't I just like,

1079
00:51:31,887 --> 00:51:34,047
Speaker 1: who's going to care? And then I'm like, if we win,

1080
00:51:34,127 --> 00:51:36,007
Speaker 1: I mean, I won't say anything. I'll just be standing

1081
00:51:36,047 --> 00:51:36,807
Speaker 1: at the back.

1082
00:51:37,167 --> 00:51:39,047
Speaker 3: And you'll look terrible because you've not had your hair

1083
00:51:39,047 --> 00:51:41,607
Speaker 3: on making don't even look very shiny. You're gonna have.

1084
00:51:41,567 --> 00:51:43,087
Speaker 1: Proper out Louders.

1085
00:51:43,127 --> 00:51:45,327
Speaker 2: We'll be talking about it next week, you know it

1086
00:51:45,407 --> 00:51:48,927
Speaker 2: on Monday, and anyway, we're going to be back in

1087
00:51:48,967 --> 00:51:51,967
Speaker 2: the Thank you so much to also our amazing production

1088
00:51:52,087 --> 00:51:56,167
Speaker 2: team Emmeline Gazillis and audio production from Leah Porge's for

1089
00:51:56,287 --> 00:51:57,247
Speaker 2: making us sound good.

1090
00:51:57,487 --> 00:51:58,127
Speaker 1: We love you all.

1091
00:51:58,207 --> 00:51:59,007
Speaker 2: We'll see you next week.

1092
00:51:59,127 --> 00:51:59,807
Speaker 3: Bye bye.

1093
00:52:00,927 --> 00:52:04,087
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Mum and Mia subscribers listening. If

1094
00:52:04,127 --> 00:52:06,647
Speaker 1: you love the show and want to support us as well,

1095
00:52:06,887 --> 00:52:09,367
Speaker 1: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way

1096
00:52:09,367 --> 00:52:11,367
Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode

1097
00:52:11,407 --> 00:52:11,847
Speaker 1: description