1 00:00:00,270 --> 00:00:02,490 Speaker 1: You've probably seen in the news this week the name 2 00:00:02,790 --> 00:00:06,569 Speaker 1: Snowtown resurfacing and with it the story of one of 3 00:00:06,690 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Australia's most infamous and, let's be honest, most disturbing crimes. 4 00:00:11,780 --> 00:00:15,220 Speaker 1: We're talking about the Snowtown serial killings. Now, you might 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,620 Speaker 1: also know it as the Bodies in the Barrels murder. 6 00:00:18,340 --> 00:00:21,150 Speaker 1: It's a case that shocked the entire nation back in 7 00:00:21,170 --> 00:00:23,710 Speaker 1: the late 90s and now it's back in the headlines 8 00:00:23,930 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: for one reason. James Spyridon Vlasakis, the youngest of the 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,339 Speaker 1: four killers, has just been granted parole. But before we 10 00:00:32,380 --> 00:00:34,940 Speaker 1: bring you the interview that your host Gemma Bath recorded 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: last year with reporter and author Jeremy Pudney, who has 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,300 Speaker 1: spent years investigating this case, I'm going to set the 13 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:46,980 Speaker 1: scene for you. In May 1999, police discovered something chilling. 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: Human remains sealed inside barrels hidden in an old bank 15 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: vault in the small South Australian town of Snowtown. Among 16 00:00:55,490 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: those involved was James Vlasakis. Now, he was just 18 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,300 Speaker 1: years old at the time, the youngest of the group. 18 00:01:01,860 --> 00:01:05,220 Speaker 1: The ringleader, John Justin Bunting, was dating his mother at 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: the time. Under Bunting's influence, Vlasakis took part in four 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,090 Speaker 1: of the 11 murders. One of them was his very 21 00:01:13,150 --> 00:01:17,150 Speaker 1: own half-brother, Troy Ude. He'd also helped kill Fred Brooks, 22 00:01:17,390 --> 00:01:22,870 Speaker 1: Gary O'Dwyer and David Johnson. In 2002, Vlasakis was sentenced 23 00:01:22,910 --> 00:01:25,380 Speaker 1: to life in prison. He got a non-parole period of 24 00:01:25,380 --> 00:01:28,809 Speaker 1: 26 years, backdated to when he was taken into custody 25 00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:34,010 Speaker 1: in June 1999. That term has now expired. And while 26 00:01:34,090 --> 00:01:37,250 Speaker 1: he hasn't been released yet, on Tuesday, the Parole Board 27 00:01:37,330 --> 00:01:41,690 Speaker 1: officially approved his parole. According to Parole Board Chair Francis 28 00:01:41,730 --> 00:01:46,510 Speaker 1: Nelson Cayce, Lasakas is considered genuinely remorseful and does meet 29 00:01:46,530 --> 00:01:49,540 Speaker 1: the legal requirements for release. But it will not be 30 00:01:49,580 --> 00:01:52,700 Speaker 1: a simple walk out of prison situation. If he is 31 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: to be released, it won't be directly back into the community. Instead, 32 00:01:57,300 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: he'll first go through what's called a careful re-socialization program. 33 00:02:01,540 --> 00:02:07,500 Speaker 1: It's a slow reintegration process into society. Also, under parole conditions, 34 00:02:07,820 --> 00:02:10,660 Speaker 1: he won't be able to change his name without special approval. 35 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,490 Speaker 1: And Nelson says, frankly, it is very unlikely that he 36 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:17,829 Speaker 1: would get that approval. There's now a 60-day window where 37 00:02:17,870 --> 00:02:21,230 Speaker 1: authorities can challenge the parole board's decision, so nothing is 38 00:02:21,330 --> 00:02:26,570 Speaker 1: guaranteed just yet. This case is complex and very confronting. 39 00:02:27,050 --> 00:02:29,290 Speaker 1: To help make sense of it, here's a conversation that 40 00:02:29,430 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: dives deep into the story behind the headlines of the 41 00:02:32,590 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: bodies in the barrels. 42 00:02:41,780 --> 00:02:46,710 Speaker 2: It's an unseasonably warm day in May 1999. And detectives 43 00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:49,250 Speaker 2: Greg Stone and Steve McCoy have just pulled up in 44 00:02:49,290 --> 00:02:52,220 Speaker 2: front of an old bank in Snowtown, a tiny wheatbelt 45 00:02:52,260 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: town in South Australia. It's a plain red brick building 46 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 2: with big steel front doors and it's been closed to 47 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,890 Speaker 2: the public for more than four years. The detectives have 48 00:03:03,950 --> 00:03:07,550 Speaker 2: followed a trail of clues here and suspect they're closing 49 00:03:07,610 --> 00:03:11,530 Speaker 2: in on a group of serial killers. As they head inside, 50 00:03:12,090 --> 00:03:14,590 Speaker 2: they head straight for the bank's vault. where they're hit 51 00:03:14,669 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 2: by an unmistakable and pungent smell. Rotting remains. Inside, they 52 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 2: find six large plastic barrels. They're black, with a screw-top lid. 53 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:34,290 Speaker 2: They also find handcuffs, knives, a saw, boxes of disposable gloves, 54 00:03:34,930 --> 00:03:40,070 Speaker 2: and bottles of hydrochloric acid. McCoy calls back to the 55 00:03:40,110 --> 00:03:44,420 Speaker 2: major crime office in Adelaide. We've found bodies. he tells them. 56 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,380 Speaker 2: But exactly how many and who they are is unclear. 57 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,250 Speaker 2: Little do Stone and McCoy know, they've just stumbled on 58 00:03:54,270 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: the dumping grounds of Australia's worst serial killings. I'm Gemma 59 00:04:15,750 --> 00:04:19,250 Speaker 2: Bath and this is True Crime Conversations, a Mamma Mia 60 00:04:19,270 --> 00:04:23,310 Speaker 2: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to 61 00:04:23,330 --> 00:04:27,090 Speaker 2: the people who know the most about them. All up, 62 00:04:27,290 --> 00:04:32,070 Speaker 2: police found 12 victims, eight of which were found dismembered 63 00:04:32,589 --> 00:04:35,029 Speaker 2: and with signs of torture in the barrels in the bank. 64 00:04:35,990 --> 00:04:38,790 Speaker 2: The ringleader of the group responsible was a man called 65 00:04:39,050 --> 00:04:43,810 Speaker 2: John Bunting. He loved killing. and relished in the torture 66 00:04:44,070 --> 00:04:48,669 Speaker 2: and elimination of people he deemed unworthy of life. He 67 00:04:48,710 --> 00:04:52,500 Speaker 2: recruited the rest of the group. His right-hand man, Robert Wagner, 68 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:56,339 Speaker 2: was known as The Muscle, Mark Hayden, who became his 69 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 2: cover-up guy, and James Flissakis. His mother was dating Bunting, 70 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: and over time, he was gradually drawn in to helping 71 00:05:05,420 --> 00:05:09,270 Speaker 2: with the murders. The group's murderous rampage was brought to 72 00:05:09,290 --> 00:05:12,940 Speaker 2: an end in 1999. and all of the men were 73 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: given lengthy prison sentences. But in 2024, the Snowtown murders 74 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,580 Speaker 2: are once again making news. The night before I recorded 75 00:05:22,620 --> 00:05:25,690 Speaker 2: this interview with today's guest, it had been revealed that 76 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:30,630 Speaker 2: Mark Hayden had been released from prison. His maximum term 77 00:05:30,770 --> 00:05:35,150 Speaker 2: is expiring in late May 2024, which means he's due 78 00:05:35,190 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: to be released without any supervision or conditions. Given the 79 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,210 Speaker 2: nature of his crimes... the parole board decided to grant 80 00:05:43,270 --> 00:05:46,390 Speaker 2: him a strict version of parole early so that they 81 00:05:46,410 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: could monitor him. Hayden is the only one of the 82 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: four men who is technically not a convicted killer, but 83 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: his crimes are extensive. For the people of South Australia 84 00:05:57,580 --> 00:06:02,550 Speaker 2: in particular, his release feels all too soon. To discuss 85 00:06:02,570 --> 00:06:04,770 Speaker 2: Hayden and the fate of the other three men who 86 00:06:04,830 --> 00:06:08,860 Speaker 2: remain behind bars, we're joined by Jeremy Pudney. He was 87 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:11,420 Speaker 2: one of the first journalists on the scene in Snowtown 88 00:06:11,460 --> 00:06:14,219 Speaker 2: when news of the bodies in the barrels broke. He 89 00:06:14,260 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: followed the case closely and has written a book called Snowtown, 90 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,940 Speaker 2: the bodies in barrels murders. And now, as the Adelaide 91 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,300 Speaker 2: news director at Nine News, his team is responsible for 92 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,940 Speaker 2: the latest update in this case, the exclusive on Hayden's 93 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: early release. Jeremy joins us now to take us back 94 00:06:33,020 --> 00:06:45,950 Speaker 2: to the start of the story. As far as towns go, Snowtown, 95 00:06:46,450 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 2: it's not just small, it's tiny and they now have 96 00:06:49,940 --> 00:06:54,540 Speaker 2: this insane reputation even 25 years later. Tell us about 97 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:55,779 Speaker 2: the people of Snowtown. 98 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 3: Well, they're the sort of people you'd expect to find 99 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 3: in a small town like that, a town that is 100 00:07:01,860 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 3: essentially surviving on the farming activities that goes on around 101 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,570 Speaker 3: it and had probably lived through more prosperous times before 102 00:07:10,610 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 3: that and had become a little bit set aside, I guess, 103 00:07:15,660 --> 00:07:18,100 Speaker 3: being in off the main highway that heads north through 104 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: South Australia. And so it's a quiet place. It's a 105 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: tranquil place. Before this discovery was made, it would probably 106 00:07:24,940 --> 00:07:27,050 Speaker 3: be fair to say that most South Australians didn't know 107 00:07:27,070 --> 00:07:30,450 Speaker 3: where Snowtown was. And there's good people there. There were 108 00:07:30,470 --> 00:07:33,590 Speaker 3: good people there then. There's good people there now. And 109 00:07:33,630 --> 00:07:35,730 Speaker 3: I think a really important part of this story is 110 00:07:35,790 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: that this has become known as the Snowtown murders. But 111 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,100 Speaker 3: in actual fact, only one murder happened at Snowtown. It's 112 00:07:42,140 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 3: just where this discovery was made that turned it into 113 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:48,220 Speaker 3: what we know it to be today. And the people 114 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 3: of Snowtown, some of whom watched as police went into 115 00:07:51,540 --> 00:07:54,660 Speaker 3: the bank that day and removed the barrels that night, 116 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,180 Speaker 3: were just as shocked and surprised and disgusted as everybody else. 117 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 3: And so to answer your question, they're good people there. 118 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 3: They always have been. They always will be. And I 119 00:08:03,580 --> 00:08:06,660 Speaker 3: think they've done a really admirable job of living beyond 120 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:08,420 Speaker 3: the stigma that this has given them. 121 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,580 Speaker 2: As you say, it's a shame. Snowtown murders, it's the 122 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,780 Speaker 2: phrase that we use to remember this crime. But the 123 00:08:15,820 --> 00:08:21,390 Speaker 2: story actually mainly resides in Adelaide. And it starts in 124 00:08:21,410 --> 00:08:25,330 Speaker 2: the early 90s with a man called John Justin Bunting. 125 00:08:26,690 --> 00:08:29,430 Speaker 2: Tell me a little bit about him and his background 126 00:08:29,470 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: and life in Salisbury North. 127 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,780 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, John Bunting was actually born in Brisbane in Queensland, 128 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,890 Speaker 3: and he appeared troubled as a child. I think he 129 00:08:37,929 --> 00:08:40,450 Speaker 3: had some of the traits that people might expect him 130 00:08:40,510 --> 00:08:43,219 Speaker 3: to have displayed as a child, given what we now 131 00:08:43,250 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 3: know he was capable of. He was a school dropout. 132 00:08:47,380 --> 00:08:50,819 Speaker 3: He did have loving parents, but he exhibited some disturbing 133 00:08:50,900 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 3: traits even as a child. He liked to catch insects 134 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,010 Speaker 3: and drop them into acid and watch them die. And 135 00:08:58,110 --> 00:09:00,990 Speaker 3: some of his behaviour was bizarre or violent as a child. 136 00:09:01,630 --> 00:09:04,430 Speaker 3: And as a young man, he moved to Adelaide, to 137 00:09:04,490 --> 00:09:08,689 Speaker 3: South Australia, and he began living in the northern suburbs 138 00:09:08,730 --> 00:09:12,610 Speaker 3: of Adelaide and working on and off and befriending people 139 00:09:12,630 --> 00:09:15,670 Speaker 3: in the northern suburbs of Adelaide. And he worked at 140 00:09:15,770 --> 00:09:18,380 Speaker 3: one point at an abattoir and used to brag to 141 00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:21,260 Speaker 3: some of his friends about how he enjoyed killing the animals. 142 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,260 Speaker 3: And so there was some real alarm bells ringing, some 143 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 3: warning signs, if you like, around John Bunting and his 144 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 3: personality and his behaviour from a very early age. And 145 00:09:32,020 --> 00:09:36,140 Speaker 3: really what happened was he came to Adelaide He set 146 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,469 Speaker 3: himself up in the northern suburbs of Adelaide and he 147 00:09:38,510 --> 00:09:41,670 Speaker 3: began doing what he did for his entire adult life 148 00:09:41,730 --> 00:09:45,350 Speaker 3: until he went to jail. And that was finding vulnerable people, 149 00:09:45,850 --> 00:09:49,570 Speaker 3: manipulating them and in some cases preying on them. So 150 00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:53,850 Speaker 3: he moved from one partner to another vulnerable people and 151 00:09:53,929 --> 00:09:59,969 Speaker 3: then befriended his accomplices who were in some ways vulnerable people. 152 00:10:00,730 --> 00:10:03,410 Speaker 3: and embarked on the evil that we all now know about. 153 00:10:05,230 --> 00:10:08,910 Speaker 2: I'm curious to get your thoughts on where this charm 154 00:10:09,010 --> 00:10:10,980 Speaker 2: comes from to befriend people. 155 00:10:12,340 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: I'm not sure he's someone that you or I would 156 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,179 Speaker 3: find charming, but he certainly had some kind of charisma. 157 00:10:18,980 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 3: that having never met him in person, I can't describe 158 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 3: accurately except to say that he did appear to have 159 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:33,670 Speaker 3: this ability to captivate people or manipulate people or get 160 00:10:33,710 --> 00:10:36,990 Speaker 3: them to take part in things that they otherwise wouldn't 161 00:10:37,050 --> 00:10:39,590 Speaker 3: have and that you and I would be horrified by. 162 00:10:40,370 --> 00:10:42,630 Speaker 3: But what we know about everybody that he did that to, 163 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 3: the people that he manipulated into taking part in murder 164 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,870 Speaker 3: with him, people that he manipulated into covering it up, 165 00:10:50,910 --> 00:10:53,310 Speaker 3: or the people that he prayed on, we know that 166 00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:56,209 Speaker 3: they were all vulnerable in some way. They'd either had 167 00:10:56,650 --> 00:11:02,510 Speaker 3: terrible lives and needed someone, or they had intellectual disabilities, 168 00:11:03,210 --> 00:11:06,270 Speaker 3: or they had some other form of difficulty that made 169 00:11:06,340 --> 00:11:09,940 Speaker 3: them easier for him to manipulate and easier for him 170 00:11:09,980 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 3: to pray on. 171 00:11:12,010 --> 00:11:14,530 Speaker 2: Let's talk about that more specifically because two of the 172 00:11:14,570 --> 00:11:19,050 Speaker 2: men he befriended, Mark Hayden and Robert Wagner, he went 173 00:11:19,140 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: on to offend with. Let's start with Wagner. What was 174 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:22,699 Speaker 2: his story? 175 00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 3: So Robert Wagner did genuinely have a terrible childhood. He 176 00:11:28,260 --> 00:11:33,230 Speaker 3: was sexually abused at a very early age and it 177 00:11:33,429 --> 00:11:35,990 Speaker 3: absolutely had a profound effect on him. There's no doubt 178 00:11:36,010 --> 00:11:38,809 Speaker 3: about that. It does not excuse what he did, but 179 00:11:38,850 --> 00:11:42,810 Speaker 3: it explains where he came from. He then ends up 180 00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:46,270 Speaker 3: in the northern suburbs of Adelaide with his mother, who's 181 00:11:46,330 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 3: struggling really to raise him and control him. And he 182 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,620 Speaker 3: is lured, groomed, if you like, we would call it now, 183 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 3: by a pedophile by the name of Barry Lane, who 184 00:11:58,580 --> 00:12:03,780 Speaker 3: ultimately becomes one of the victims. Now, Barry Lane lures 185 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 3: Robert Wagner. And by the time Robert Wagner is 14 186 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,380 Speaker 3: years old, he's living with Barry Lane. And essentially being 187 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 3: sexually abused by a pedophile and being controlled by him. 188 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 3: And he disappears with Barry Lane and his mum hears 189 00:12:18,820 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: nothing of him. Only for them to resurface in the 190 00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 3: northern suburbs of Adelaide in Salisbury North, which is where 191 00:12:26,580 --> 00:12:30,250 Speaker 3: John Bunting comes to meet Robert Wagner and Barry Lane. 192 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:36,189 Speaker 3: And that association begins. And John Bunting had this burning 193 00:12:36,270 --> 00:12:40,950 Speaker 3: hatred of homosexual people. and had this warped inability to 194 00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:45,170 Speaker 3: differentiate between someone who was homosexual and someone who was 195 00:12:45,230 --> 00:12:48,990 Speaker 3: a pedophile. He, in many regards, believed that that was 196 00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:52,590 Speaker 3: one and the same. And he absolutely would have seen 197 00:12:52,950 --> 00:12:56,110 Speaker 3: Barry Lane for what he was and hated him right 198 00:12:56,130 --> 00:12:59,849 Speaker 3: from the beginning and had some empathy for Robert Wagner 199 00:13:00,130 --> 00:13:02,910 Speaker 3: as someone who was young and being controlled by Barry Lane. 200 00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:06,770 Speaker 3: And so from a very early stage after meeting them, 201 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,860 Speaker 3: He was manipulating Barry Lane to help him with things 202 00:13:11,380 --> 00:13:15,420 Speaker 3: at the same time befriending and persuading Robert Wagner to 203 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 3: his way of thinking. 204 00:13:17,860 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: How about Mark? How does he come into contact with him? 205 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,580 Speaker 3: So that happens a little later and it's as simple 206 00:13:23,660 --> 00:13:27,420 Speaker 3: as John Bunting and Mark Hayden meeting at a welding 207 00:13:27,460 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 3: course because these are people who are in and out 208 00:13:29,830 --> 00:13:33,170 Speaker 3: of work and sometimes undertaking training in the hope of 209 00:13:33,270 --> 00:13:37,010 Speaker 3: finding new work and they met at a welding course. 210 00:13:37,790 --> 00:13:40,089 Speaker 3: And once again, I think it's fair to say that 211 00:13:41,090 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 3: John Bunting identified Mark Hayden as someone who could be 212 00:13:44,059 --> 00:13:47,699 Speaker 3: of use to him and as someone who was easily manipulated. 213 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,340 Speaker 3: And I think everything that you ever read or see 214 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: about Mark Hayden is that he is not a particularly 215 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,550 Speaker 3: intelligent man and he was easy for John Bunting to control. 216 00:14:00,250 --> 00:14:02,870 Speaker 2: There's a fourth member of this group that later go 217 00:14:02,970 --> 00:14:07,460 Speaker 2: on to be convicted for these crimes. 23-year-old James or 218 00:14:07,540 --> 00:14:11,910 Speaker 2: Jamie Vlasakis. What was his connection to Bunting? 219 00:14:12,570 --> 00:14:15,650 Speaker 3: This is the real tragedy, one of the real tragedies 220 00:14:15,710 --> 00:14:19,810 Speaker 3: in this story because James Vlasakis is another person in 221 00:14:19,850 --> 00:14:22,150 Speaker 3: this story and it's so common in this story who 222 00:14:22,170 --> 00:14:25,580 Speaker 3: was abused as a child. By the time he crosses 223 00:14:25,660 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 3: paths with John Bunting, he's living with his mother who's 224 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 3: by herself in the northern suburbs of Adelaide and there's 225 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 3: another brother living there too. In fact, there's three or 226 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:41,100 Speaker 3: four at any given time. So James Vlasakis' mother, Elizabeth Harvey, 227 00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:44,350 Speaker 3: is living in the northern suburbs of Adelaide and meets 228 00:14:44,430 --> 00:14:48,230 Speaker 3: John Bunting, and they begin a relationship. And so John 229 00:14:48,270 --> 00:14:54,010 Speaker 3: Bunting becomes James Vlasakis' stepfather. Now, James Vlasakis had been 230 00:14:54,050 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 3: abused by his own father, who he then saw die 231 00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:00,380 Speaker 3: of a heart attack right in front of him, and 232 00:15:00,420 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 3: he was a really troubled kid as a result of 233 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 3: everything that had happened to him and that he had seen. 234 00:15:06,010 --> 00:15:09,690 Speaker 3: And then, as fate would have it, this troubled kid 235 00:15:10,110 --> 00:15:12,250 Speaker 3: who could have been set on the right path ends 236 00:15:12,330 --> 00:15:14,970 Speaker 3: up with John Bunting as his stepfather. And that's where 237 00:15:14,990 --> 00:15:15,930 Speaker 3: it all goes wrong for him. 238 00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: You mentioned before Bunting's kind of hatred that underpins everything. 239 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,700 Speaker 2: He hates homosexuals. He hates pedophiles. Tell us about his 240 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: wall of spiders. 241 00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:29,620 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, and I think it's really important to put 242 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,220 Speaker 3: John Bunting's behaviour into context because there's no justification for 243 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,150 Speaker 3: what he did. And he did hate pedophiles. As a teenager, 244 00:15:37,220 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 3: he was interested in Nazism, white supremacy, Adolf Hitler, and 245 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 3: he also had this hatred of pedophiles, and he hated 246 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,340 Speaker 3: homosexual people, and he saw them, as I said, as 247 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,420 Speaker 3: the same thing in a really warped way. And so 248 00:15:53,020 --> 00:15:55,230 Speaker 3: he had almost adopted, by the time he's living in 249 00:15:55,250 --> 00:16:00,550 Speaker 3: the northern suburbs of Adelaide, this vigilante mindset towards anyone 250 00:16:00,610 --> 00:16:03,850 Speaker 3: he thought was a pedophile who was preying on children. 251 00:16:04,530 --> 00:16:07,980 Speaker 3: And so in his home... In Salisbury North, he had created, 252 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 3: using string and post-it notes, what he described as a 253 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 3: wall of spiders, a term he would use to refer 254 00:16:14,620 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 3: to pedophiles, where he would keep small snippets of information 255 00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:22,930 Speaker 3: on people that he perceived were pedophiles or a risk 256 00:16:22,950 --> 00:16:25,830 Speaker 3: to children. And, of course, some of these people were not. 257 00:16:26,330 --> 00:16:28,910 Speaker 3: They had done nothing wrong. In his warped view, he 258 00:16:28,970 --> 00:16:32,210 Speaker 3: had honed in on them. And he was using, in particular, 259 00:16:32,270 --> 00:16:35,930 Speaker 3: Barry Lane to collect information on these people. or in 260 00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:38,270 Speaker 3: some cases they were just people in the immediate area. 261 00:16:38,930 --> 00:16:42,590 Speaker 3: And so it was a kind of manifestation on the 262 00:16:42,630 --> 00:16:45,470 Speaker 3: wall in his house of his warped view of the 263 00:16:45,530 --> 00:16:47,510 Speaker 3: world and the reason he hated people. 264 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:51,340 Speaker 2: It sounds like something from Criminal Minds, you know, when 265 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: they close in and they've got all the pictures. 266 00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 3: And I'm sure later on he was at the centre 267 00:16:56,020 --> 00:16:59,140 Speaker 3: of something very similar in a police headquarters somewhere. But, yeah, 268 00:16:59,220 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 3: it was just a real display of his warped view 269 00:17:01,940 --> 00:17:05,510 Speaker 3: of people who had done nothing wrong. Some had, some 270 00:17:05,550 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 3: had not, and of the world. And it was just, 271 00:17:09,390 --> 00:17:11,660 Speaker 3: I guess, a reflection of the hatred that he had. 272 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 3: And this is a man who began by justifying his 273 00:17:15,980 --> 00:17:19,340 Speaker 3: killings in this way. But by the end of this 274 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,100 Speaker 3: killing spree, he was killing people for pleasure. He was 275 00:17:23,140 --> 00:17:25,820 Speaker 3: killing people for money. That's one of the most difficult 276 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,220 Speaker 3: things about this story. There's no clear motive. There's absolutely 277 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,570 Speaker 3: no justification. What we've got here is one human who 278 00:17:32,609 --> 00:17:35,740 Speaker 3: just liked to kill people. who happened to find a 279 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,149 Speaker 3: couple of others who were prepared to help him do it. 280 00:17:38,660 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 3: And in at least one case, that of Robert Wagner 281 00:17:41,220 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 3: appeared to enjoy it just as much. 282 00:17:44,180 --> 00:17:48,810 Speaker 2: This killing spree started, as far as we know, in 1992. 283 00:17:48,810 --> 00:17:52,850 Speaker 2: Tell us about that first victim, because that body actually 284 00:17:52,890 --> 00:17:55,430 Speaker 2: went unidentified for quite some time. 285 00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:59,109 Speaker 3: That's right. So that's Clinton Tresize. He was a young man, 22, 286 00:17:59,090 --> 00:18:04,450 Speaker 3: and he was an openly gay man. And he was 287 00:18:04,490 --> 00:18:07,990 Speaker 3: a little bit disenfranchised from his family. He was living 288 00:18:08,010 --> 00:18:11,369 Speaker 3: in the same area that we talk about, which is 289 00:18:11,390 --> 00:18:13,970 Speaker 3: the epicentre for this in the beginning, Adelaide's northern suburbs 290 00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:17,330 Speaker 3: and that Salisbury North area. And he was friends with 291 00:18:17,369 --> 00:18:20,270 Speaker 3: or known to Barry Lane. He was known in the 292 00:18:20,369 --> 00:18:23,010 Speaker 3: area by a nickname, Happy Pants, because he would wear 293 00:18:23,030 --> 00:18:26,270 Speaker 3: these colourful pants. It was kind of his thing. And 294 00:18:27,170 --> 00:18:30,290 Speaker 3: this was really where John Bunting's, you know, hatred of 295 00:18:30,350 --> 00:18:33,730 Speaker 3: people who were homosexual came to the fore. And he 296 00:18:33,790 --> 00:18:37,850 Speaker 3: had decided in his own mind, probably fuelled by the 297 00:18:37,910 --> 00:18:41,669 Speaker 3: sort of vile nonsense that Barry Lane would speak and 298 00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:46,460 Speaker 3: that Robert Wagner would echo, that Clinton Tresise was a pedophile. 299 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: And so on a visit to John Bunting's home, he 300 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 3: was attacked from behind with a hammer and murdered right 301 00:18:56,020 --> 00:19:00,310 Speaker 3: there in the house. And then his remains were taken 302 00:19:00,330 --> 00:19:03,869 Speaker 3: by Bunting himself with the assistance of Wagner and Lane, 303 00:19:04,450 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: and dumped in a paddock at a place called Lower Light, 304 00:19:06,690 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 3: which is north of Adelaide, and not found for some time. 305 00:19:10,940 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 3: I think it was 1994 by a couple of old 306 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,140 Speaker 3: farmers who were just tending to their paddock. 307 00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: So he was originally a missing person, and then it 308 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,700 Speaker 2: wasn't until the disappearance of Barry Lane that police started 309 00:19:25,740 --> 00:19:28,699 Speaker 2: to kind of at least link the two. Tell us 310 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: about that. Tell us about Lane. 311 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 3: That's where the story is quite complicated because there was 312 00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 3: a couple of things happening in parallel in terms of 313 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,710 Speaker 3: the police investigation. The first thing is that Elizabeth Hayden, 314 00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:44,030 Speaker 3: who was Mark Hayden's wife, had gone missing and her 315 00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:46,949 Speaker 3: brother had refused to accept the explanation that she had 316 00:19:46,990 --> 00:19:49,510 Speaker 3: just up and left, that he was being given and 317 00:19:49,570 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 3: he reported it. her missing. But at the same time, 318 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 3: there was already a cold case missing persons review underway. 319 00:19:59,510 --> 00:20:05,010 Speaker 3: And that had begun really with a Clinton Tresise and 320 00:20:05,090 --> 00:20:11,140 Speaker 3: also Barry Lane, who had vanished, and then Also, Suzanne Allen, 321 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,940 Speaker 3: another person from the northern suburbs who had vanished, and 322 00:20:15,020 --> 00:20:17,940 Speaker 3: Ray Davies, who had lived in a caravan in her backyard, 323 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 3: who had also vanished. And what had come up when 324 00:20:22,180 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 3: a particular missing persons officer started to look through one 325 00:20:27,580 --> 00:20:30,060 Speaker 3: file and then the next and then the next was 326 00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:34,580 Speaker 3: this overlap of addresses or associates. And the same names 327 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,609 Speaker 3: kept coming up, and that was John Bunting and Robert Wagner. 328 00:20:38,170 --> 00:20:41,090 Speaker 3: John Bunting and Robert Wagner in relation to having had 329 00:20:41,170 --> 00:20:44,490 Speaker 3: contact with these people or having been friends of these 330 00:20:44,550 --> 00:20:48,229 Speaker 3: people or having been last seen with these people. So 331 00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:51,380 Speaker 3: that's happening in background in the major crime missing persons 332 00:20:51,450 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 3: officers at the same time as some detectives in the 333 00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 3: northern suburbs of Adelaide are investigating the disappearance of Elizabeth Hayden. 334 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 3: And because that becomes a missing persons case, that information 335 00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:07,770 Speaker 3: makes its way into headquarters And then there's this connection 336 00:21:07,850 --> 00:21:12,510 Speaker 3: between Wagner Bunting, the husband of the missing woman, Mark Hayden, 337 00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 3: and these other files. And that's when the police investigation 338 00:21:17,130 --> 00:21:20,820 Speaker 3: really gathers significant momentum. This is a time where perhaps 339 00:21:20,859 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 3: the technology wasn't what it is now. And some of 340 00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:29,620 Speaker 3: these connections might be made using elaborate computer programs. These 341 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: were connections that had to be made by humans looking 342 00:21:31,859 --> 00:21:35,060 Speaker 3: through different files. It's something that perhaps would have been 343 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 3: more quickly detected in this day and age than back 344 00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:38,500 Speaker 3: when this was. 345 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 2: Let's fill in some of the gaps here, because I 346 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,070 Speaker 2: think it's worth pointing out at this point that all 347 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:48,950 Speaker 2: of these victims have some kind of connection to Bunting 348 00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:53,109 Speaker 2: or some of his associates. They're all kind of interwoven. 349 00:21:54,050 --> 00:21:56,030 Speaker 2: What about Suzanne and Ray? 350 00:21:57,130 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 3: So Suzanne Allen lived in the same general area as 351 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 3: John Bunting, where he's already living with a partner. And 352 00:22:04,220 --> 00:22:08,609 Speaker 3: it appears they had some sort of romantic connection or 353 00:22:08,650 --> 00:22:12,609 Speaker 3: in some sort of relationship. And it appears Suzanne Allen 354 00:22:13,150 --> 00:22:17,990 Speaker 3: became infatuated with John Bunting and perhaps also had some 355 00:22:18,050 --> 00:22:22,500 Speaker 3: knowledge of things that John Bunting had done in relation 356 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 3: to Clinton Dressice. And so she became a problem for 357 00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:30,939 Speaker 3: John Bunting in that she had become a pest to him. 358 00:22:31,710 --> 00:22:35,139 Speaker 3: in relation to her unrequited love for him. And he 359 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,580 Speaker 3: was also concerned that she knew too much. Now, John 360 00:22:39,619 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 3: Bunting has never been convicted of her murder. This is 361 00:22:42,580 --> 00:22:46,459 Speaker 3: the 12th victim, if you like, whose remains were found, 362 00:22:46,590 --> 00:22:49,310 Speaker 3: but the jury was never able to be sure that 363 00:22:49,550 --> 00:22:53,170 Speaker 3: he killed her, but he killed her and her body 364 00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:56,530 Speaker 3: was dismembered. And she was one of the two victims 365 00:22:56,590 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: whose remains were found buried in the backyard of the 366 00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:01,060 Speaker 3: house that he had lived at at the time. 367 00:23:02,170 --> 00:23:05,570 Speaker 2: The other gap I want to focus in on is 368 00:23:05,650 --> 00:23:09,850 Speaker 2: the disappearance you mentioned of Elizabeth Hayden, because as we've mentioned, 369 00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:13,670 Speaker 2: she's the wife of Mark. What were the circumstances around 370 00:23:13,710 --> 00:23:16,709 Speaker 2: her disappearance and, well, we find out, murder? 371 00:23:17,530 --> 00:23:21,070 Speaker 3: So she's living with Mark and her children in their 372 00:23:21,109 --> 00:23:24,930 Speaker 3: house in Smithfield, which is also in the northern suburbs 373 00:23:24,970 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 3: of Adelaide. John Bunting and Robert Wagner are thick as 374 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 3: thieves with Mark Hayden. They're coming and going from there 375 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:35,169 Speaker 3: all the time. John Bunting is unable to not brag 376 00:23:35,230 --> 00:23:38,010 Speaker 3: about some of the things he's done and there's a 377 00:23:38,050 --> 00:23:41,490 Speaker 3: strong belief that Elizabeth Hayden had some knowledge of things 378 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,460 Speaker 3: that had been going on and also was just perceived 379 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,260 Speaker 3: as an annoyance, as a pest, someone who was disposable 380 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 3: by these people. And by this time, John Bunting and 381 00:23:53,540 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 3: Robert Wagner had developed quite the enjoyment of killing and 382 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 3: Elizabeth Hayden became their next target and so she was 383 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,290 Speaker 3: murdered And her husband has never been convicted of taking 384 00:24:06,350 --> 00:24:09,980 Speaker 3: part in that murder, of being an accomplice to it, 385 00:24:10,670 --> 00:24:14,260 Speaker 3: of covering it up, along with six others. And her 386 00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:16,379 Speaker 3: body was one of those that were found in the 387 00:24:16,420 --> 00:24:17,620 Speaker 3: barrels in the Snowtown Bank. 388 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 2: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Gemma Bath. 389 00:24:27,020 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with journalist Jeremy Pudney about Australia's notorious Snowtown murders. 390 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,609 Speaker 2: There's so many victims in this story. It's hard to 391 00:24:42,670 --> 00:24:46,850 Speaker 2: even comprehend. And there's so many different lives here. And 392 00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:48,909 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, it feels like as time has gone on, 393 00:24:49,390 --> 00:24:52,330 Speaker 2: they've killed just for the sake of killing. One of 394 00:24:52,550 --> 00:24:54,730 Speaker 2: the victims, Troy Ude. 395 00:24:55,470 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 3: Well, Troy Ude was the half-brother of James Lasarkas. And 396 00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 3: there is some suggestion that Troy Ude and James Lasarkas 397 00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:10,570 Speaker 3: as half-brothers didn't get along. There was a suggestion that 398 00:25:10,670 --> 00:25:15,550 Speaker 3: he may have in some way been abusive towards James Vlasakis, 399 00:25:16,330 --> 00:25:20,719 Speaker 3: but also Troy Youde was an annoyance to John Bunting. 400 00:25:21,060 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 3: Of course, Troy Youde is the son of Elizabeth Harvey, 401 00:25:23,980 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 3: who Bunting is in a de facto relationship with. He 402 00:25:28,060 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 3: was also a drug user, and that's something else that 403 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 3: Bunting despised. And he became an irritation, and at this point, 404 00:25:35,660 --> 00:25:39,870 Speaker 3: just an obvious target to John Bunting. And so... Like 405 00:25:40,210 --> 00:25:42,929 Speaker 3: so many of the victims here, it was someone that 406 00:25:42,990 --> 00:25:46,629 Speaker 3: John Bunting decided should be murdered and was murdered with 407 00:25:46,650 --> 00:25:50,610 Speaker 3: the help of others. In this case, not only Robert Wagner, 408 00:25:51,090 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 3: but with the help and understanding of his half-brother, James Vlasakis. 409 00:25:56,700 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 2: When did Vlasakis start being included in this murderous rampage? 410 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,500 Speaker 3: It began with the murder of Gavin Porter. Now, I 411 00:26:06,180 --> 00:26:10,350 Speaker 3: think From memory, Gavin Porter was murdered in 1998 and 412 00:26:10,609 --> 00:26:14,570 Speaker 3: he was a friend of James Lasarkas. He was also 413 00:26:14,609 --> 00:26:18,530 Speaker 3: a drug user. James Lasarkas had his challenges with drugs. 414 00:26:19,150 --> 00:26:23,270 Speaker 3: But Gavin Porter was otherwise an apparently decent person who 415 00:26:23,310 --> 00:26:26,530 Speaker 3: was just struggling with an addiction and was, you know, 416 00:26:26,590 --> 00:26:30,730 Speaker 3: enduring a difficult life. And Bunting had viewed him as 417 00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:33,699 Speaker 3: a waste of space, an annoyance like he did with 418 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,149 Speaker 3: so many of these people. There's no suggestion Gavin Porter 419 00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:40,550 Speaker 3: had really done anything bad to anyone and Bunting had 420 00:26:40,590 --> 00:26:43,290 Speaker 3: decided that he should be murdered. And Porter was murdered 421 00:26:43,830 --> 00:26:48,270 Speaker 3: by Bunting and Wagner and the body dragged into the 422 00:26:48,330 --> 00:26:52,109 Speaker 3: house and Vlasakis brought into the room to be shown 423 00:26:52,190 --> 00:26:55,230 Speaker 3: his dead friend. And that was really the beginning of 424 00:26:55,290 --> 00:26:59,730 Speaker 3: this indoctrination into the killing by Bunting of James Vlasakis. 425 00:26:59,910 --> 00:27:03,050 Speaker 3: So he sees his dead friend laying there. He knows 426 00:27:03,090 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 3: that he's been murdered by Bunting and Wagner And he 427 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,989 Speaker 3: has always said that from that point on, he not 428 00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:12,310 Speaker 3: only was under bunting spell, but was living in fear 429 00:27:12,350 --> 00:27:14,930 Speaker 3: that he would be the next victim. And the only 430 00:27:15,010 --> 00:27:17,530 Speaker 3: way to not be the next victim was to do 431 00:27:17,570 --> 00:27:19,750 Speaker 3: what he was told to do. And this is a 432 00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:24,379 Speaker 3: young man who's already broken and is not strong in 433 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 3: any way. And so it's difficult for right-minded, right-thinking people 434 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 3: to see how he couldn't just raise the alarm. But 435 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 3: it's a different set of circumstances. And so that's how 436 00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:37,550 Speaker 3: it began. And so from that point on, he was 437 00:27:38,170 --> 00:27:43,710 Speaker 3: roped into the murders and often involved in luring victims 438 00:27:44,650 --> 00:27:49,210 Speaker 3: or was the connection between Bunting and Wagner and the victims. 439 00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:53,050 Speaker 3: It was through Vlasakis' associations that some of these people 440 00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:54,190 Speaker 3: became obvious to the killers. 441 00:27:56,140 --> 00:27:59,139 Speaker 2: What were the other men's roles? We've got Bunting, who 442 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,490 Speaker 2: is obviously the ringleader. Wagner was often referred to as 443 00:28:03,530 --> 00:28:06,050 Speaker 2: kind of the right-hand man. He was also doing a 444 00:28:06,070 --> 00:28:07,350 Speaker 2: lot of the brutality, wasn't he? 445 00:28:08,090 --> 00:28:10,790 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Bunting's not a big man. He's not a 446 00:28:10,810 --> 00:28:13,609 Speaker 3: particularly strong man. He's not weak, but he's not big. 447 00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 3: He's not intimidating in any way. Robert Wagner's a big man, tall, imposing, 448 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,100 Speaker 3: and so he was the muscle, if you like. And 449 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,140 Speaker 3: so in that initial moment where they begin to murder someone, 450 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,020 Speaker 3: It typically started with Robert Wagner overpowering them and then 451 00:28:33,180 --> 00:28:37,290 Speaker 3: John Bunting taking part. And one of the really terrible things, 452 00:28:37,810 --> 00:28:40,850 Speaker 3: if things like this can be more terrible, is the 453 00:28:40,930 --> 00:28:43,870 Speaker 3: torture that some of these victims endured. And so in 454 00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:47,610 Speaker 3: the beginning, these were murders and they very quickly developed 455 00:28:47,670 --> 00:28:52,990 Speaker 3: into torture and then murder and some extended periods of 456 00:28:53,070 --> 00:28:58,190 Speaker 3: torture that was conducted by John Bunting and Robert Wagner. 457 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 3: and that was witnessed by James Lasarkas. And these people 458 00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 3: were killed slowly in some cases, very slowly. 459 00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: And there was a cruelty, obviously torture is cruel, but 460 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: they were making their victims call them names. So some 461 00:29:14,980 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: of the ones in your book that you mentioned, Lord, Sir, 462 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 2: and God, and kind of humiliating their victims in the process. 463 00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:25,460 Speaker 3: Humiliation, but also power for John Bunting. You know, like 464 00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:27,510 Speaker 3: I said, he had this warped view of the world, 465 00:29:27,530 --> 00:29:30,850 Speaker 3: this evil perspective. And he honestly believed that he was 466 00:29:30,910 --> 00:29:35,150 Speaker 3: there to impose justice on people and to protect other people. 467 00:29:35,810 --> 00:29:38,910 Speaker 3: And he viewed himself as godlike. And so he would 468 00:29:38,990 --> 00:29:42,740 Speaker 3: make his victims. refer to him in this way. It 469 00:29:42,780 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 3: was also a form of humiliation, a form of torture. 470 00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 3: You know, they would laugh at their victims. They would 471 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,330 Speaker 3: relish in the pain that they're experiencing. And, you know, 472 00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:54,630 Speaker 3: this is something that is probably one of the most 473 00:29:54,690 --> 00:29:58,110 Speaker 3: resounding aspects for me of the case. This was not 474 00:29:58,470 --> 00:30:02,530 Speaker 3: a moment of rage. This was sustained serial killing with 475 00:30:02,650 --> 00:30:06,150 Speaker 3: torture and killing for pleasure. They would also do things 476 00:30:06,250 --> 00:30:10,209 Speaker 3: like force their victims to make voice recordings that they 477 00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:14,390 Speaker 3: would try and use to fool relatives over the phone, 478 00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:17,670 Speaker 3: for example, into believing that the victims were still alive. 479 00:30:18,580 --> 00:30:22,660 Speaker 3: And they would also torture them for financial information like 480 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 3: banking PIN numbers and other information because really as an 481 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,230 Speaker 3: aside to what they were doing, they would pilfer some 482 00:30:30,270 --> 00:30:33,250 Speaker 3: of their victims' bank accounts afterwards and sometimes in an 483 00:30:33,330 --> 00:30:37,050 Speaker 3: ongoing way. Some of these victims were on welfare benefits, 484 00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:40,850 Speaker 3: regular payments into their bank accounts, and the killers would 485 00:30:41,330 --> 00:30:45,110 Speaker 3: often be withdrawing that money as it was deposited and 486 00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:46,310 Speaker 3: sharing it amongst themselves. 487 00:30:47,820 --> 00:30:50,020 Speaker 2: Where were these murders taking place? 488 00:30:50,660 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 3: Obviously, the early murders, those of Clinton Tressias and Ray 489 00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:57,660 Speaker 3: Davies and Suzanne Allen, even though there was never a 490 00:30:57,700 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 3: formal conviction for murder, Michael Gardner, Barry Lane as well, 491 00:31:02,340 --> 00:31:05,020 Speaker 3: and Thomas Trevelyan. They all happened in the northern suburbs 492 00:31:05,060 --> 00:31:08,380 Speaker 3: of Adelaide. So in and around where John Bunting was living, 493 00:31:08,460 --> 00:31:11,660 Speaker 3: because that's really how these people came to his attention 494 00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:14,430 Speaker 3: and how these people were in the circle, in the realm, 495 00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:17,370 Speaker 3: if you like. But then at some point, John Bunting 496 00:31:17,390 --> 00:31:21,030 Speaker 3: and Elizabeth Harvey, with James Vlasakis and Troy Ude on 497 00:31:21,070 --> 00:31:24,209 Speaker 3: and off, moved to a town called Murray Bridge to 498 00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:26,850 Speaker 3: the east of Adelaide. And then that's where some of 499 00:31:26,890 --> 00:31:29,900 Speaker 3: the murders occurred. and some of the victims were living. 500 00:31:30,420 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 3: And again, this is occurring just in Bunting's realm. If 501 00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:36,650 Speaker 3: you were someone who was down on your luck, if 502 00:31:36,670 --> 00:31:41,950 Speaker 3: you somehow made friends with his stepson, James Vlasakis, if 503 00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:44,790 Speaker 3: you somehow did something to offend him, you were on 504 00:31:44,850 --> 00:31:47,790 Speaker 3: his radar in that area, and that put you at risk. 505 00:31:49,250 --> 00:31:51,969 Speaker 2: What was Mark's role? We've touched on Wagner. What was 506 00:31:52,030 --> 00:31:53,209 Speaker 2: Mark's role in these killings? 507 00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:58,420 Speaker 3: I think that'll always be a point of conjecture. I 508 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,780 Speaker 3: think it's important to stress that he's never been convicted 509 00:32:00,820 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 3: of murder. He was originally charged with murders. He's never 510 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,490 Speaker 3: been convicted of murder. What he has been convicted of 511 00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:11,950 Speaker 3: is assisting or covering up in seven cases of murder, 512 00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:15,330 Speaker 3: two of which he confessed to and five of which 513 00:32:15,370 --> 00:32:20,610 Speaker 3: he was found guilty of. And so Mark Hayden, although 514 00:32:20,670 --> 00:32:23,260 Speaker 3: he's never been convicted of murder, has blood on his hands, 515 00:32:24,060 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 3: as is the case with any crime that's repeated in 516 00:32:27,530 --> 00:32:29,750 Speaker 3: If someone speaks up and it's stopped, it won't happen 517 00:32:29,790 --> 00:32:33,220 Speaker 3: again and again. And so it's, I think, very clear 518 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,940 Speaker 3: to say that if Mark Hayden had done the right thing, 519 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 3: people would still be alive today who were murdered. And 520 00:32:39,860 --> 00:32:43,370 Speaker 3: I think that it's very difficult for the relatives of 521 00:32:43,450 --> 00:32:47,750 Speaker 3: some victims to accept that Mark Hayden was only ever 522 00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:50,950 Speaker 3: convicted of covering up in seven cases of murder. 523 00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:56,510 Speaker 2: Let's get back to the police investigation. So by February 1999, 524 00:32:56,510 --> 00:33:00,510 Speaker 2: the deaths of Clinton, Tressize, Barry Lane, Suzanne Allen and 525 00:33:00,550 --> 00:33:03,830 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Hayden were all officially declared major crimes. They're all 526 00:33:03,870 --> 00:33:07,010 Speaker 2: working away in the background. How did they go from 527 00:33:07,070 --> 00:33:09,990 Speaker 2: that to a few months later, ending up in Snowtown? 528 00:33:10,930 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 3: So essentially, as I described to you earlier, there's this 529 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 3: missing persons investigation, this review of cold case missing persons 530 00:33:19,540 --> 00:33:23,780 Speaker 3: files that starts to join the dots between these missing 531 00:33:23,820 --> 00:33:26,820 Speaker 3: individuals and these names that keep coming up in relation 532 00:33:26,860 --> 00:33:29,740 Speaker 3: to them. John Bunting and Robert Wagner keep coming up. 533 00:33:30,550 --> 00:33:33,590 Speaker 3: And at the same time as this is happening, Elizabeth 534 00:33:33,610 --> 00:33:38,390 Speaker 3: Hayden disappears. Her brother is rightly suspicious of the way 535 00:33:38,430 --> 00:33:41,330 Speaker 3: in which she's vanished. He's adamant she would never leave 536 00:33:41,390 --> 00:33:44,990 Speaker 3: her children behind and just leave like Mark Hayden was 537 00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:49,140 Speaker 3: saying that she had. And so as the police attention 538 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,180 Speaker 3: fixates on Mark Hayden in relation to the disappearance of 539 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 3: his wife, it becomes clear to those investigators that John 540 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,900 Speaker 3: Bunting and Robert Wagner are friends with Mark Hayden. And 541 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 3: then the match occurs with these other missing people. And 542 00:34:01,790 --> 00:34:04,970 Speaker 3: so the heat is then very much on this group 543 00:34:04,990 --> 00:34:08,469 Speaker 3: of John Bunting, Robert Wagner and Mark Hayden. While the 544 00:34:08,510 --> 00:34:12,310 Speaker 3: police are investigating Elizabeth Hayden's disappearance, they are given witness 545 00:34:12,370 --> 00:34:16,950 Speaker 3: accounts of a four-wheel drive at the property where people 546 00:34:17,010 --> 00:34:21,390 Speaker 3: are seen placing garbage bags into the four-wheel drive. And 547 00:34:21,450 --> 00:34:24,620 Speaker 3: they're already thinking they're investigating a murder, and they're obviously 548 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,060 Speaker 3: thinking along the lines of human remains in those bags 549 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,380 Speaker 3: as a distinct possibility. And so that four-wheel drive is 550 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,950 Speaker 3: put on a trailer and towed away at some point. Now, 551 00:34:37,989 --> 00:34:41,730 Speaker 3: through various means of surveillance, the police determined that their 552 00:34:41,790 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 3: three suspects are travelling to and from Snowtown which is 553 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,340 Speaker 3: in the mid north of South Australia, and they focus 554 00:34:49,380 --> 00:34:52,860 Speaker 3: on a particular house where they've been visiting with a friend. 555 00:34:53,780 --> 00:34:56,260 Speaker 3: And so some detectives are given the job of going 556 00:34:56,300 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 3: to Snowtown and visiting this house and making some inquiries 557 00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:05,180 Speaker 3: with the friend, particularly in relation to this four-wheel drive. 558 00:35:06,110 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 3: And it's when they speak to that friend, when they 559 00:35:08,410 --> 00:35:11,210 Speaker 3: interview that friend at the house, that he indicates to 560 00:35:11,250 --> 00:35:15,310 Speaker 3: them that the contents of the four-wheel drive was now 561 00:35:15,370 --> 00:35:18,450 Speaker 3: being stored in a bank across the rail line in town, 562 00:35:18,630 --> 00:35:21,690 Speaker 3: an old bank building, which was being rented by Bunting 563 00:35:21,730 --> 00:35:25,910 Speaker 3: and Wagner. And so they essentially go to the bank 564 00:35:26,670 --> 00:35:29,210 Speaker 3: and they open it up and they find inside the 565 00:35:29,230 --> 00:35:35,500 Speaker 3: bank vault these barrels and being experienced police, having smelled 566 00:35:35,820 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 3: the odour of death before, they knew exactly what they 567 00:35:37,980 --> 00:35:38,500 Speaker 3: were dealing with. 568 00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:41,660 Speaker 2: I want to bring you into the story now because 569 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 2: you were a reporter. You were one of the first 570 00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: on the scene when all of this started breaking. What 571 00:35:47,780 --> 00:35:49,700 Speaker 2: was that like for you? What do you remember of 572 00:35:49,739 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 2: that time? 573 00:35:50,219 --> 00:35:52,940 Speaker 3: Well, I remember I was a police reporter at the 574 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 3: Adelaide Advertiser and I was covering some inane minor story 575 00:35:57,580 --> 00:36:00,439 Speaker 3: early in the day. And I received a phone call 576 00:36:00,460 --> 00:36:03,620 Speaker 3: from the newsroom to say that there had been bodies 577 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,700 Speaker 3: found in barrels in a bank in Snowtown. And of course, 578 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,930 Speaker 3: I didn't believe that would be right. I didn't think 579 00:36:09,969 --> 00:36:12,589 Speaker 3: that's how the story would pan out. But I decided 580 00:36:12,610 --> 00:36:13,930 Speaker 3: it would be best if I got back to the 581 00:36:13,950 --> 00:36:16,069 Speaker 3: office in a hurry and then made plans to head 582 00:36:16,130 --> 00:36:18,969 Speaker 3: to Snowtown. I actually got pulled over for speeding on 583 00:36:18,989 --> 00:36:21,930 Speaker 3: the way back from the inane story to the office. 584 00:36:22,210 --> 00:36:24,810 Speaker 3: And then myself and a photographer and other journalists and 585 00:36:24,830 --> 00:36:28,770 Speaker 3: photographers made our way to Snowtown. This story breaks the 586 00:36:28,810 --> 00:36:31,489 Speaker 3: morning after the barrels have been removed from the bank. 587 00:36:32,130 --> 00:36:34,230 Speaker 3: So the police have done a really very good job 588 00:36:34,330 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 3: of keeping track that initial operation secret. And I remember 589 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 3: speaking to some of the Snowtown locals, including some people 590 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,580 Speaker 3: who had sat on the balcony of the pub, which 591 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 3: is across the road from the bank, and were sitting 592 00:36:46,340 --> 00:36:48,730 Speaker 3: there watching as these barrels were being brought out and 593 00:36:48,770 --> 00:36:50,610 Speaker 3: taken away by the police. And they thought it was 594 00:36:50,650 --> 00:36:53,170 Speaker 3: a mega drug bust. They had no idea what was 595 00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:55,270 Speaker 3: going on. And so by the time we got there, 596 00:36:55,290 --> 00:36:58,810 Speaker 3: it was quiet. And there weren't many police. And the 597 00:36:58,830 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 3: bank was a crime scene, but a subdued one. And 598 00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:04,100 Speaker 3: so it was a little bit anticlimactic, if you like. 599 00:37:04,739 --> 00:37:07,810 Speaker 3: But That was the same morning that the arrests were 600 00:37:07,850 --> 00:37:11,930 Speaker 3: occurring and it became very apparent very quickly through that 601 00:37:11,989 --> 00:37:14,270 Speaker 3: day and in the days that followed the scale of 602 00:37:14,350 --> 00:37:16,509 Speaker 3: what had happened and what had been discovered there and 603 00:37:16,530 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 3: what was being alleged. But the fascinating thing about this 604 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,500 Speaker 3: is that at this point, this is a missing persons investigation, 605 00:37:23,660 --> 00:37:27,860 Speaker 3: maybe five, maybe six. At the point in which the 606 00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:32,049 Speaker 3: police walk into that bank and discover those barrels, they 607 00:37:32,110 --> 00:37:34,650 Speaker 3: ultimately find that there's eight bodies in there. This is 608 00:37:34,690 --> 00:37:38,180 Speaker 3: more than they're expecting. This is the beginning of an investigation, 609 00:37:38,219 --> 00:37:41,060 Speaker 3: not the end. And there's so much work that happens 610 00:37:41,140 --> 00:37:44,630 Speaker 3: in the months that follow where they're trying to determine 611 00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:48,469 Speaker 3: who these people are, who these victims are, some of 612 00:37:48,510 --> 00:37:51,370 Speaker 3: whom were never reported missing because they were so disenfranchised 613 00:37:51,410 --> 00:37:52,170 Speaker 3: from their families. 614 00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 2: So you mentioned the arrests were going down at a 615 00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:59,420 Speaker 2: similar time. That was the arrests of Bunting, Wagner and Hayden. 616 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 2: How did they react? Because obviously they've been getting away 617 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 2: with this for years. 618 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 3: Yes. Look, I think because these are not very smart people. 619 00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:14,700 Speaker 3: John Bunting is cunning, rat cunning. Robert Wagner and Mark 620 00:38:14,739 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 3: Hayden are not very smart people. They are followers. And 621 00:38:17,860 --> 00:38:21,819 Speaker 3: they really genuinely have no idea how much heat is 622 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 3: on them at this point. And if John Bunting did 623 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 3: have an inkling, he didn't care because his lust for 624 00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:32,609 Speaker 3: killing was overriding all of that. And so there was 625 00:38:32,670 --> 00:38:35,970 Speaker 3: certainly an element of surprise when their homes were raided 626 00:38:36,030 --> 00:38:38,650 Speaker 3: by police at dawn and they were told that they 627 00:38:38,670 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 3: were being placed under arrest for murder. Wagner and Hayden 628 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,700 Speaker 3: had very little to say. Bunting was being a smartass 629 00:38:47,380 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 3: right from the beginning and appeared nonchalant about the whole thing. 630 00:38:52,700 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 3: So I think they were genuinely surprised to be caught 631 00:38:55,980 --> 00:38:59,009 Speaker 3: at that time, but really because two of them were 632 00:38:59,030 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 3: too stupid to know that that was about to happen 633 00:39:01,739 --> 00:39:03,890 Speaker 3: and because one was so deluded that he believed he 634 00:39:03,930 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 3: would never be caught. 635 00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:09,169 Speaker 2: Is it Vlasakis that ends up being their undoing because 636 00:39:09,190 --> 00:39:10,989 Speaker 2: he ends up confessing to a lot? 637 00:39:12,210 --> 00:39:16,450 Speaker 3: Yeah, he does. So Vlasakis is a suspect very early 638 00:39:16,530 --> 00:39:22,290 Speaker 3: on and there's some intense interviews occurring involving major crime 639 00:39:22,330 --> 00:39:25,250 Speaker 3: detectives and Vlasakis and he's in and out of their custody. 640 00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:29,110 Speaker 3: He is arrested for murder at some point subsequent to 641 00:39:29,150 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 3: that and is being investigated and eventually gets to the 642 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,989 Speaker 3: point where he's ready to confess to everything that he knows. 643 00:39:39,150 --> 00:39:43,009 Speaker 3: And this is a gruelling, gruelling interview with police where 644 00:39:43,050 --> 00:39:46,930 Speaker 3: he details everything that he knows about the murders that 645 00:39:47,090 --> 00:39:51,339 Speaker 3: predated his involvement. or even his contact with Bunting by 646 00:39:51,420 --> 00:39:53,779 Speaker 3: way of the bragging or the things that he'd come 647 00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 3: to learn. And he details everything that he knows about 648 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,980 Speaker 3: the murders he was involved in, including the things that 649 00:40:01,020 --> 00:40:03,819 Speaker 3: he witnessed himself and the things that he did himself. 650 00:40:04,989 --> 00:40:08,010 Speaker 3: And so what that does is it provides the police 651 00:40:09,110 --> 00:40:13,810 Speaker 3: with a roadmap to this complex web to these crimes 652 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,859 Speaker 3: at a point where they're still really trying to piece 653 00:40:16,900 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 3: together a lot of this information themselves. They would have 654 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,529 Speaker 3: eventually identified these victims and they very probably would have 655 00:40:25,570 --> 00:40:30,290 Speaker 3: eventually had enough evidence to convict Bunting and Wagner of 656 00:40:30,350 --> 00:40:34,910 Speaker 3: these murders and Vlasakis. But what he did by way 657 00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:37,890 Speaker 3: of his confession and his evidence as a witness was 658 00:40:38,070 --> 00:40:42,900 Speaker 3: expedite that process significantly. and probably lead to some convictions 659 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,280 Speaker 3: where they otherwise may not have been able to occur. 660 00:40:47,060 --> 00:40:49,140 Speaker 2: And he's the one as well that kind of points them, 661 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 2: because we've mentioned eight bodies were found in the barrels, 662 00:40:52,420 --> 00:40:56,320 Speaker 2: but there's 11, 12 murders, and he points them to 663 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:57,469 Speaker 2: those other bodies as well. 664 00:40:57,820 --> 00:41:00,870 Speaker 3: That's right. And so the excavation begins in the backyard 665 00:41:00,950 --> 00:41:05,710 Speaker 3: at Salisbury North and two bodies are found there, again 666 00:41:05,790 --> 00:41:10,690 Speaker 3: dismembered and in plastic bags. And it enables the police 667 00:41:10,730 --> 00:41:13,830 Speaker 3: to piece together information about the other murders as well. 668 00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:17,030 Speaker 3: The murder of Clinton Tresias, which had been a missing 669 00:41:17,110 --> 00:41:21,310 Speaker 3: persons case and fraught with error from the beginning, including 670 00:41:21,350 --> 00:41:24,630 Speaker 3: an inability by a forensic expert to match the skeletal 671 00:41:24,670 --> 00:41:27,070 Speaker 3: remains with an image of Clinton Tresias. In fact, it 672 00:41:27,110 --> 00:41:29,980 Speaker 3: was ruled out rather than ruled in, which really slowed 673 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,420 Speaker 3: down that process. And even the murder of Thomas Trevelyan, 674 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 3: which had been staged to look like a suicide and 675 00:41:38,940 --> 00:41:42,390 Speaker 3: had been accepted by authorities as a suicide for such 676 00:41:42,430 --> 00:41:44,950 Speaker 3: a long period of time. And so it was this 677 00:41:45,010 --> 00:41:48,130 Speaker 3: confession that really did point police in the direction of 678 00:41:48,170 --> 00:41:50,969 Speaker 3: those other murders, as you say, and not just the 679 00:41:51,010 --> 00:41:53,090 Speaker 3: murders of those people whose bodies were found in the 680 00:41:53,110 --> 00:41:54,010 Speaker 3: barrels in Snowtown. 681 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 2: I want to ask you this question because it's an 682 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: important question to ask. to understand Hayden's conviction, why or 683 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 2: when were the bodies moved to Snowtown? Because they weren't 684 00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 2: always there. 685 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 3: No, they weren't always there. The belief is that they 686 00:42:23,340 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 3: were moved to Snowtown from Hayden's house at Smithfield when 687 00:42:30,260 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 3: they were coming under some heat subsequent to the murder 688 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,790 Speaker 3: of Elizabeth Hayden. So they're explaining away Elizabeth Hayden's disappearance. 689 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 3: Mark Hayden is telling her brother that she's left and 690 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,660 Speaker 3: her brother is not accepting that explanation. And they want 691 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 3: to keep killing Bunting and Wagner and they decide they 692 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,660 Speaker 3: need to move these bodies. Now, one thing that there's 693 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,140 Speaker 3: never been a lot of discussion about is why do 694 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,150 Speaker 3: they still even have these bodies in barrels? And it's 695 00:43:01,210 --> 00:43:04,910 Speaker 3: because it would appear John Bunting wanted to keep them. 696 00:43:04,969 --> 00:43:07,850 Speaker 3: They were trophies of sorts. And, you know, one thing 697 00:43:07,890 --> 00:43:10,500 Speaker 3: that I think Lots of studies the world over have 698 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,330 Speaker 3: established about serial killers is that they like trophies, reminders 699 00:43:14,370 --> 00:43:16,790 Speaker 3: of what they've done. Either that or they were just 700 00:43:16,850 --> 00:43:19,810 Speaker 3: incredibly stupid in their attempts to cover up their crimes. 701 00:43:20,590 --> 00:43:23,150 Speaker 3: And so they had this problem. These barrels that they 702 00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:25,530 Speaker 3: were storing there could no longer be kept there because 703 00:43:25,550 --> 00:43:28,940 Speaker 3: of the intensity on an address where Elizabeth Hayden had 704 00:43:28,980 --> 00:43:33,620 Speaker 3: vanished from. And so moving them to their mate's place 705 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 3: at Snowtown, and there was another property nearby where they 706 00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:38,859 Speaker 3: were kept for a short period of time, And then 707 00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:43,399 Speaker 3: finding another solution, which became that bank in Snowtown, was 708 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 3: their plan. 709 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,219 Speaker 2: You would think that you'd lie low after that, that 710 00:43:49,260 --> 00:43:52,020 Speaker 2: you would kind of pause knowing that people are looking 711 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,420 Speaker 2: at you, but their last victim is actually killed in Snowtown. 712 00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:56,140 Speaker 2: Tell us about that. 713 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,899 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. And I mean, the rate at which 714 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,320 Speaker 3: John Bunting was killing, if you look at 1998, where there's, 715 00:44:04,510 --> 00:44:08,990 Speaker 3: I think, five victims, but then you move into 1999 716 00:44:08,989 --> 00:44:13,150 Speaker 3: where there's one, before they're caught, certainly the pressure that 717 00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:18,090 Speaker 3: they're under, the overt investigations that are now occurring, slow 718 00:44:18,670 --> 00:44:22,380 Speaker 3: the rate of killing, which John Bunting found frustrating because 719 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,620 Speaker 3: he had developed quite the appetite for it. And so 720 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 3: they had decided because, like I said earlier, Robert Wagner's 721 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,910 Speaker 3: not a smart man and John Bunting had a deluded 722 00:44:33,950 --> 00:44:36,850 Speaker 3: belief that he was the smartest person in the room. 723 00:44:37,660 --> 00:44:40,580 Speaker 3: They arrived at this position where they felt they were 724 00:44:40,620 --> 00:44:43,859 Speaker 3: safe to do this, where they felt that they could 725 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,140 Speaker 3: get away with murder again. And why wouldn't they? Because 726 00:44:47,180 --> 00:44:51,629 Speaker 3: they had gotten away with so many murders before. And so, yes, 727 00:44:51,690 --> 00:44:57,569 Speaker 3: the final victim, David Johnson, who was James Vlasakis' stepbrother, 728 00:44:58,190 --> 00:45:01,850 Speaker 3: is selected as the target and a plan is hatched 729 00:45:01,890 --> 00:45:05,420 Speaker 3: to lure him to Snowtown, to the bank, under the 730 00:45:05,460 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 3: guise of buying a computer. and Robert Wagner and John Bunting, 731 00:45:10,219 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 3: they're waiting there. 732 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,359 Speaker 2: There's obviously so much evidence in this case to lead 733 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 2: to a conviction with these men. I want to jump 734 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 2: to the court proceedings because the trial of Bunting and Wagner, 735 00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:29,220 Speaker 2: it was a joint trial, 2002. I'm revealing my age here. 736 00:45:29,260 --> 00:45:31,390 Speaker 2: I was a bit too young to pay attention. But that, 737 00:45:31,570 --> 00:45:34,310 Speaker 2: I can imagine, would have been a huge story, a 738 00:45:34,530 --> 00:45:38,650 Speaker 2: double story. trial involving two serial killers, multiple victims? 739 00:45:40,150 --> 00:45:43,290 Speaker 3: Oh, look, it's one of, if not the biggest criminal 740 00:45:43,350 --> 00:45:47,069 Speaker 3: trial in South Australian history. The level of public interest was, 741 00:45:47,130 --> 00:45:50,989 Speaker 3: as you would expect, enormous. The special facilities that had 742 00:45:51,030 --> 00:45:53,270 Speaker 3: to be created in the court complex and the scale 743 00:45:53,330 --> 00:45:56,850 Speaker 3: of it and the complexity of it was enormous. And 744 00:45:57,610 --> 00:46:00,540 Speaker 3: what you really had were two serial killers side by 745 00:46:00,620 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 3: side on trial for murders they had committed together, that 746 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,900 Speaker 3: they really weren't remorseful for in any way that they 747 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,880 Speaker 3: were proud of. And it was almost as though they 748 00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:15,569 Speaker 3: were enjoying their moment, relishing it all over again. And 749 00:46:15,590 --> 00:46:18,370 Speaker 3: so there was this fight, there was this contest, this 750 00:46:18,450 --> 00:46:23,230 Speaker 3: legal contest, but ultimately the evidence was overwhelming and Bunting 751 00:46:23,250 --> 00:46:27,550 Speaker 3: was convicted of 11 murders and Wagner of 10. 752 00:46:27,570 --> 00:46:31,590 Speaker 2: Hayden's trial went ahead a few years later and it 753 00:46:31,630 --> 00:46:34,590 Speaker 2: took the jury quite a while to make that decision. 754 00:46:35,850 --> 00:46:38,670 Speaker 2: Can you take us more into that, the final verdict, 755 00:46:38,890 --> 00:46:41,180 Speaker 2: the sentence, how that all played out? 756 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,000 Speaker 3: I think the complexity of this case and the need 757 00:46:46,060 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 3: to prove, well, really 12 murders and how actively each 758 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,110 Speaker 3: person participated or didn't participate in each act of murder, 759 00:46:57,690 --> 00:47:01,770 Speaker 3: that was an incredibly difficult exercise for the police. This 760 00:47:01,830 --> 00:47:05,150 Speaker 3: is in an era where forensic science was advanced, but 761 00:47:05,210 --> 00:47:08,460 Speaker 3: not as advanced as it is now, and involved a 762 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,379 Speaker 3: lot of people who were in some way removed from 763 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,180 Speaker 3: their families. And so the alarm wasn't raised as early 764 00:47:15,219 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 3: as it could be. And so all through this process, 765 00:47:18,780 --> 00:47:22,270 Speaker 3: as the police interviewed those who knew the suspects and 766 00:47:22,310 --> 00:47:25,270 Speaker 3: those who knew the victims, there was this common theme 767 00:47:25,290 --> 00:47:27,950 Speaker 3: that would come out about Mark Hayden, that he was 768 00:47:27,969 --> 00:47:31,430 Speaker 3: a quiet man, that he wasn't an assertive man, that 769 00:47:31,450 --> 00:47:35,210 Speaker 3: he always was just kind of hanging around. And so 770 00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 3: in relation to what role he played, there was never 771 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,700 Speaker 3: any strong evidence that he had taken part in any 772 00:47:42,739 --> 00:47:46,540 Speaker 3: of these murders. He knew that Elizabeth Hayden had been murdered. 773 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,020 Speaker 3: He lied to her family and he lied to the 774 00:47:49,060 --> 00:47:52,830 Speaker 3: police about it. And he covered up for these killers 775 00:47:53,570 --> 00:47:58,370 Speaker 3: in six other cases. He admitted because the evidence was overwhelming, 776 00:47:58,830 --> 00:48:01,930 Speaker 3: his role in two of those, And ultimately, the police 777 00:48:01,969 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 3: were able to approve by virtue of witness accounts and 778 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:10,359 Speaker 3: forensic evidence and circumstantial evidence that he had knowledge of 779 00:48:10,460 --> 00:48:15,700 Speaker 3: or some involvement of the five others. And so really, 780 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,730 Speaker 3: for someone who at the beginning was a suspect in 781 00:48:18,830 --> 00:48:23,430 Speaker 3: multiple murders, but where the evidence was not strong, to 782 00:48:23,469 --> 00:48:26,509 Speaker 3: have him convicted of assisting in so many cases was 783 00:48:26,550 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 3: still a significant result in terms of the investigations. And 784 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,399 Speaker 3: so he is sentenced to spend up until the year 785 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,839 Speaker 3: 2024 in prison, which brings us to where we are 786 00:48:37,890 --> 00:48:39,170 Speaker 3: today in relation to Mark Hayden. 787 00:48:40,450 --> 00:48:42,370 Speaker 2: Yeah, because with Wagner and Bunting, we were able to 788 00:48:42,410 --> 00:48:44,970 Speaker 2: file them away. They're not getting parole. They're in jail. 789 00:48:44,989 --> 00:48:48,569 Speaker 3: No, they're not getting parole. They're in jail. And so 790 00:48:48,590 --> 00:48:50,950 Speaker 3: to be clear, in South Australia and in relation to 791 00:48:50,989 --> 00:48:54,259 Speaker 3: their sentence, they were sentenced to life in prison, which 792 00:48:54,340 --> 00:48:58,060 Speaker 3: is the mandatory sentence for murder, and the judge declined 793 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 3: to set a parole period. So there is technically no 794 00:49:02,219 --> 00:49:05,379 Speaker 3: such thing here as never to be released. It's just 795 00:49:05,420 --> 00:49:08,460 Speaker 3: that the judge has decided not to set a parole period. 796 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,720 Speaker 3: That decision is still reviewed or can be reviewed by 797 00:49:12,739 --> 00:49:17,489 Speaker 3: the Parole Board of South Australia. And only recently, while 798 00:49:17,530 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 3: speaking about the Hayden case, were there remarks. that came 799 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,100 Speaker 3: to the fore about John Bunting in particular. And those 800 00:49:24,180 --> 00:49:26,500 Speaker 3: remarks were about the fact that he is not remorseful 801 00:49:26,900 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 3: and that he is proud of what he's done. And 802 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:30,900 Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say that John Bunting and 803 00:49:30,940 --> 00:49:32,390 Speaker 3: Robert Wagner will never be released. 804 00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:37,350 Speaker 2: But 2024 is here and Hayden's parole date is upon us. 805 00:49:38,070 --> 00:49:41,370 Speaker 2: Tell us about what's happening now because he's back in 806 00:49:41,390 --> 00:49:41,790 Speaker 2: the news. 807 00:49:42,670 --> 00:49:45,630 Speaker 3: He is. And that's because in a few weeks' time, 808 00:49:45,690 --> 00:49:50,910 Speaker 3: in May of 2024, his maximum term expires. So forget 809 00:49:50,950 --> 00:49:55,319 Speaker 3: about his non-parole period. His maximum term expires. And as 810 00:49:55,340 --> 00:49:59,740 Speaker 3: I think most people understand, when you've finished your maximum term, 811 00:50:00,060 --> 00:50:03,320 Speaker 3: you are released and there can be no restriction placed 812 00:50:03,380 --> 00:50:06,500 Speaker 3: on you and no monitoring placed on you. What could 813 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,540 Speaker 3: have happened is he could have been given parole some 814 00:50:08,580 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 3: time ago and that didn't occur. And so only recently 815 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,350 Speaker 3: has the parole board decided that it's a good idea 816 00:50:15,430 --> 00:50:18,910 Speaker 3: to give Mark Hayden parole, but really in the context 817 00:50:18,989 --> 00:50:21,770 Speaker 3: of having some facility with which to monitor him by 818 00:50:21,830 --> 00:50:27,340 Speaker 3: way of parole conditions before that sentence expires. The community 819 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 3: expectation is different. The community, this feels like yesterday, South Australians, 820 00:50:33,210 --> 00:50:35,589 Speaker 3: And I think it's fair to say very uncomfortable with 821 00:50:35,610 --> 00:50:38,250 Speaker 3: the prospect of him being released at all in any way, 822 00:50:39,190 --> 00:50:42,750 Speaker 3: but in particular with absolute freedom. And so the state 823 00:50:42,770 --> 00:50:45,960 Speaker 3: government has launched a legal bid to have him declared 824 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,300 Speaker 3: a serious offender and therefore be able under the law 825 00:50:49,340 --> 00:50:53,180 Speaker 3: to be monitored beyond his maximum prison term. So he's 826 00:50:53,219 --> 00:50:56,200 Speaker 3: getting out. He's already started to be given day release 827 00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,549 Speaker 3: now as we speak, and he's getting out. It's just 828 00:50:59,590 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 3: a question now of how he'll be monitored and where 829 00:51:01,860 --> 00:51:03,620 Speaker 3: he can and can't go and what he can and 830 00:51:03,660 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 3: can't do post-May 2024. And only yesterday it came to 831 00:51:08,940 --> 00:51:11,580 Speaker 3: light that the parole process had reached to the point 832 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,859 Speaker 3: where he is already able to go out during the day. 833 00:51:14,980 --> 00:51:18,680 Speaker 3: That's happening now under supervision and only has to go 834 00:51:18,739 --> 00:51:23,230 Speaker 3: back to a corrections pre-release centre at night. And don't forget, 835 00:51:23,590 --> 00:51:27,350 Speaker 3: James Lasakis, who was convicted of several murders... was given 836 00:51:27,390 --> 00:51:30,270 Speaker 3: a non-parole period of 26 years. And so the community 837 00:51:30,310 --> 00:51:32,009 Speaker 3: will have that to grapple with in the not too 838 00:51:32,030 --> 00:51:32,690 Speaker 3: distant future. 839 00:51:34,190 --> 00:51:38,370 Speaker 2: You mentioned that through that parole process, we've found out 840 00:51:38,410 --> 00:51:42,910 Speaker 2: that there's no remorse when it comes to Bunting or Wagner. 841 00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:45,410 Speaker 2: What about the other two? Because obviously we've got Hayden 842 00:51:45,830 --> 00:51:47,870 Speaker 2: getting out this year. We're potentially going to be having 843 00:51:47,890 --> 00:51:51,770 Speaker 2: this same conversation in 2025 with Lasakas. What can we 844 00:51:51,810 --> 00:51:54,110 Speaker 2: expect from them? Is there any signs of rehabilitation? 845 00:51:54,989 --> 00:51:57,150 Speaker 3: I think... What we have to do as a community 846 00:51:57,170 --> 00:51:59,940 Speaker 3: is accept what we're being told by the authorities who 847 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 3: are assessing these people. And the Parole Board is clear 848 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:08,520 Speaker 3: in its view that Mark Hayden has shown considerable remorse 849 00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:14,470 Speaker 3: and understanding of what he did and has done nothing 850 00:52:14,530 --> 00:52:18,770 Speaker 3: wrong in all his time in prison and has done 851 00:52:18,830 --> 00:52:22,529 Speaker 3: everything right in terms of rehabilitation and his time in prison. 852 00:52:23,250 --> 00:52:25,880 Speaker 3: Their only concern about him is whether he can make 853 00:52:25,930 --> 00:52:29,279 Speaker 3: a meaningful transition back into society because he literally doesn't 854 00:52:29,300 --> 00:52:31,979 Speaker 3: know how to function in it. And frankly, he didn't 855 00:52:32,020 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 3: function in it particularly well before he got caught up 856 00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,100 Speaker 3: in all of this. This is 25 years later and 857 00:52:37,140 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 3: a lot's changed. And so the answer in relation to 858 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,390 Speaker 3: Mark Hayden is yes, he's remorseful. And yes, he has 859 00:52:43,780 --> 00:52:48,550 Speaker 3: served his time. And yes, he's rehabilitated. It's just a 860 00:52:48,610 --> 00:52:51,330 Speaker 3: question now of whether the community and the victims can 861 00:52:51,370 --> 00:52:53,009 Speaker 3: accept the fact that that time has come. 862 00:52:54,590 --> 00:52:57,150 Speaker 2: I think uncomfortable is a good word because this is 863 00:52:57,210 --> 00:52:59,870 Speaker 2: the way justice goes. We have to let these people, 864 00:52:59,969 --> 00:53:04,089 Speaker 2: once they've served their time, have the chance to show 865 00:53:04,110 --> 00:53:07,460 Speaker 2: that they've changed, have a new life. But I can 866 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,359 Speaker 2: see why South Australia would be on edge. 867 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,900 Speaker 3: Yes, and more so I think that will be the 868 00:53:12,940 --> 00:53:17,780 Speaker 3: case in relation to James Lasakis because, as we've spoken about, 869 00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,440 Speaker 3: it's a terrible story. What he endured was terrible. He 870 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,969 Speaker 3: really was... made a killer by his environment, I think 871 00:53:27,010 --> 00:53:30,029 Speaker 3: it's fair to say. That's my assessment of it. And 872 00:53:30,110 --> 00:53:33,760 Speaker 3: he was full of remorse from the moment he confessed 873 00:53:34,489 --> 00:53:38,660 Speaker 3: all through his own trial and during the gut-wrenching sentencing 874 00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:41,460 Speaker 3: submissions that were made by his defence lawyer in relation 875 00:53:41,500 --> 00:53:43,920 Speaker 3: to what he had done, what he had seen and 876 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,560 Speaker 3: what he regretted. And so he, by the time he 877 00:53:47,580 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 3: is released, if he's ever released, will have endured 26 878 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:56,419 Speaker 3: years of remorse. The question is, can someone who has 879 00:53:56,460 --> 00:54:01,459 Speaker 3: been found guilty of four murders, four serial killings, should 880 00:54:01,500 --> 00:54:04,120 Speaker 3: they ever be released? Should they ever be given parole? 881 00:54:04,900 --> 00:54:08,359 Speaker 3: And I'm not sure how soon we'll see James Lasakas free. 882 00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:12,279 Speaker 3: I know that 26 years is his non-parole period, but 883 00:54:12,340 --> 00:54:13,779 Speaker 3: I think it's going to be a lot longer than 884 00:54:13,820 --> 00:54:15,859 Speaker 3: that before the community has to grapple with that issue. 885 00:54:21,210 --> 00:54:23,590 Speaker 2: Thanks to Jeremy for assisting us to tell this story. 886 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,940 Speaker 2: You can find his book, Snowtown, The Bodies in Barrels Murders, 887 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,660 Speaker 2: linked in our show notes. True Crime Conversations is a 888 00:54:31,700 --> 00:54:35,220 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia podcast hosted and produced by me, Gemma Bath, 889 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,870 Speaker 2: with audio design by Scott Stronach. Our executive producer is 890 00:54:39,910 --> 00:54:43,710 Speaker 2: Gia Moylan. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you 891 00:54:43,730 --> 00:54:46,029 Speaker 2: have any feedback or thoughts you'd like to share, you 892 00:54:46,050 --> 00:54:50,690 Speaker 2: can email us at truecrime at mammamia.com.au or you can 893 00:54:50,730 --> 00:54:52,290 Speaker 2: head to the survey linked in our show notes at 894 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:54,630 Speaker 2: to go in the running to win one of five 895 00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:58,750 Speaker 2: $ 100 gift vouchers. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be 896 00:54:58,770 --> 00:55:01,320 Speaker 2: back next week with another true crime conversation. 897 00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,250 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 898 00:55:25,290 --> 00:55:27,350 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on.