1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,112 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:13,752 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. You've probably seen 3 00:00:13,752 --> 00:00:17,272 Speaker 1: in the news this week the name Snowtown resurfacing and 4 00:00:17,432 --> 00:00:20,912 Speaker 1: with it the story of one of Australia's most infamous 5 00:00:21,032 --> 00:00:25,392 Speaker 1: and let's be honest, most disturbing crimes. We're talking about 6 00:00:25,432 --> 00:00:28,512 Speaker 1: the Snowtown's serial killings. Now you might also know it 7 00:00:28,552 --> 00:00:31,472 Speaker 1: as the Bodies in the Barrels murder. It's a case 8 00:00:31,472 --> 00:00:34,512 Speaker 1: that shocked the entire nation back in the late nineties 9 00:00:34,512 --> 00:00:37,351 Speaker 1: and now it's back in the headlines for one reason. 10 00:00:37,912 --> 00:00:41,672 Speaker 1: James spirit and Versacus, the youngest of the four killers, 11 00:00:41,992 --> 00:00:45,232 Speaker 1: has just been granted parole. But before we bring you 12 00:00:45,312 --> 00:00:48,151 Speaker 1: the interview that your host, Jimma Barth recorded last year 13 00:00:48,192 --> 00:00:51,552 Speaker 1: with reporter and author Jeremy Pudney, who has spent years 14 00:00:51,592 --> 00:00:54,551 Speaker 1: investigating this case, I'm going to set the scene for you. 15 00:00:55,312 --> 00:01:00,632 Speaker 1: In May nineteen ninety nine, police discovered something chilling human 16 00:01:00,672 --> 00:01:04,992 Speaker 1: remains sealed inside barrels hidden in an old bank vault 17 00:01:05,032 --> 00:01:08,352 Speaker 1: in the small South Australian town of Snowtown. Among those 18 00:01:08,392 --> 00:01:10,432 Speaker 1: involved was James Lasarkus. 19 00:01:10,712 --> 00:01:10,872 Speaker 2: Now. 20 00:01:10,872 --> 00:01:12,952 Speaker 1: He was just eighteen years old at the time, the 21 00:01:12,992 --> 00:01:16,472 Speaker 1: youngest of the group, the ring leader, John Justin Bunting, 22 00:01:16,792 --> 00:01:20,232 Speaker 1: was dating his mother at the time. Under Bunting's influence, 23 00:01:20,672 --> 00:01:24,271 Speaker 1: Lasarkus took part in four of the eleven murders, One 24 00:01:24,312 --> 00:01:27,431 Speaker 1: of them was his very own half brother, Troy Eude. 25 00:01:27,831 --> 00:01:31,991 Speaker 1: He'd also helped kill Fred Brooks, Gary O'Dwyer, and David Johnson. 26 00:01:33,112 --> 00:01:35,831 Speaker 1: In two thousand and two, Blasarkus was sentenced to life 27 00:01:35,872 --> 00:01:38,392 Speaker 1: in prison. He got a non parole period of twenty 28 00:01:38,432 --> 00:01:41,512 Speaker 1: six years backdated to when he was taken into custody 29 00:01:41,592 --> 00:01:45,712 Speaker 1: in June nineteen ninety nine. That term has now expired, 30 00:01:46,271 --> 00:01:49,232 Speaker 1: and while he hasn't been released yet, on Tuesday, the 31 00:01:49,232 --> 00:01:53,632 Speaker 1: Parole Board officially approved his parole. According to Parole Board 32 00:01:53,712 --> 00:01:58,592 Speaker 1: chair Francis Nelson Casey, Lasarkus is considered genuinely remorseful and 33 00:01:58,752 --> 00:02:01,832 Speaker 1: does meet the legal requirements for release, but it will 34 00:02:01,872 --> 00:02:05,112 Speaker 1: not be a simple walkout of prison situation. If he 35 00:02:05,232 --> 00:02:09,752 Speaker 1: is to be released, won't be directly back into the community. Instead, 36 00:02:09,912 --> 00:02:14,032 Speaker 1: he'll first go through what's called a careful resocialization program. 37 00:02:14,112 --> 00:02:20,232 Speaker 1: It's a slow reintegration process into society. Also, under parole conditions, 38 00:02:20,432 --> 00:02:23,312 Speaker 1: he won't be able to change his name without special approval, 39 00:02:23,832 --> 00:02:27,072 Speaker 1: and Nelson says frankly, it is very unlikely that he 40 00:02:27,112 --> 00:02:30,232 Speaker 1: would get that approval. There's now a sixty day window 41 00:02:30,232 --> 00:02:33,472 Speaker 1: where authorities can challenge the prole board's decision, so nothing 42 00:02:33,712 --> 00:02:39,192 Speaker 1: is guaranteed just yet. This case is complex and very confronting. 43 00:02:39,632 --> 00:02:41,912 Speaker 1: To help make sense of it, he's a conversation that 44 00:02:42,032 --> 00:02:45,152 Speaker 1: dives deep into the story behind the headlines of the 45 00:02:45,192 --> 00:02:46,952 Speaker 1: bodies in the barrels. 46 00:02:54,312 --> 00:02:57,952 Speaker 3: It's an unseasonably warm day in May nineteen ninety nine 47 00:02:58,712 --> 00:03:01,552 Speaker 3: and detectives Greg Stone and Steve McCoy have just pulled 48 00:03:01,632 --> 00:03:04,072 Speaker 3: up in front of an old bank in Snowtown, a 49 00:03:04,112 --> 00:03:07,712 Speaker 3: tiny wheat belt town in South Australia. It's a plain 50 00:03:08,032 --> 00:03:11,832 Speaker 3: red brick building with big steel front doors, and it's 51 00:03:11,832 --> 00:03:14,792 Speaker 3: been closed to the public for more than four years. 52 00:03:15,712 --> 00:03:19,112 Speaker 3: The detectives have followed a trail of clues here and 53 00:03:19,152 --> 00:03:21,872 Speaker 3: suspect they're closing in on a group of serial killers. 54 00:03:23,192 --> 00:03:26,352 Speaker 3: As they head inside, they head straight for the bank's vault, 55 00:03:26,632 --> 00:03:31,752 Speaker 3: where they're hit by an unmistakable and pungent smell rotting remains. 56 00:03:33,312 --> 00:03:38,792 Speaker 3: Inside they find six large plastic barrels. They're black with 57 00:03:38,872 --> 00:03:44,432 Speaker 3: a screw top lid. They also find handcuffs, knives, a saw, 58 00:03:45,352 --> 00:03:52,032 Speaker 3: boxes of disposable gloves and bottles of hydrochloric acid. McCoy 59 00:03:52,072 --> 00:03:55,272 Speaker 3: calls back to the Major Crime Office in Adelaide. We've 60 00:03:55,272 --> 00:04:00,312 Speaker 3: found bodies, he tells them, but exactly how many and 61 00:04:00,392 --> 00:04:05,392 Speaker 3: who they are is unclear. Little the Stone and MCCOYO, 62 00:04:05,832 --> 00:04:10,112 Speaker 3: They've just stumbled on the dumping grounds of Australia's worst 63 00:04:10,152 --> 00:04:29,952 Speaker 3: serial killings. I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime 64 00:04:29,992 --> 00:04:34,312 Speaker 3: Conversations Amom of Mere podcast exploring the world's most notorious 65 00:04:34,352 --> 00:04:37,272 Speaker 3: crimes by speaking to the people who know the most 66 00:04:37,272 --> 00:04:43,351 Speaker 3: about them. All up police found twelve victims, eight of 67 00:04:43,392 --> 00:04:46,592 Speaker 3: which were found dismembered and with signs of torture in 68 00:04:46,632 --> 00:04:49,792 Speaker 3: the barrels in the bank. The ringleader of the group 69 00:04:49,832 --> 00:04:54,432 Speaker 3: responsible was a man called John Bunting. He loved killing 70 00:04:55,072 --> 00:04:57,952 Speaker 3: and relished in the torture and elimination of people he 71 00:04:58,072 --> 00:05:02,551 Speaker 3: deemed unworthy of life. He recruited the rest of the group. 72 00:05:03,352 --> 00:05:05,952 Speaker 3: His right hand man, Robert Wagner, was known as the 73 00:05:06,032 --> 00:05:10,472 Speaker 3: must Mark Hayden, who became his cover up guy, and 74 00:05:10,592 --> 00:05:15,552 Speaker 3: James Flesarkus, his mother was dating Bunting, and over time 75 00:05:16,032 --> 00:05:19,832 Speaker 3: he was gradually drawn into helping with the murders. The 76 00:05:19,872 --> 00:05:22,872 Speaker 3: group's murderous rampage was brought to an end in nineteen 77 00:05:22,912 --> 00:05:26,152 Speaker 3: ninety nine and all of the men were given lengthy 78 00:05:26,192 --> 00:05:31,272 Speaker 3: prison sentences, But in twenty twenty four, the Snowtown murders 79 00:05:31,312 --> 00:05:35,272 Speaker 3: are once again making news. The night before I recorded 80 00:05:35,272 --> 00:05:38,351 Speaker 3: this interview with Today's Guest, it had been revealed that 81 00:05:38,472 --> 00:05:43,192 Speaker 3: Mark Hayden had been released from prison. His maximum term 82 00:05:43,392 --> 00:05:47,351 Speaker 3: is expiring in late May twenty twenty four, which means 83 00:05:47,432 --> 00:05:50,792 Speaker 3: he's due to be released without any supervision or conditions. 84 00:05:51,912 --> 00:05:55,472 Speaker 3: Given the nature of his crimes, the Parole Board decided 85 00:05:55,472 --> 00:05:58,752 Speaker 3: to grant him a strict version of parole early so 86 00:05:58,792 --> 00:06:02,312 Speaker 3: that they could monitor Hayden is the only one of 87 00:06:02,352 --> 00:06:05,632 Speaker 3: the four men who is technically not a convicted killer, 88 00:06:06,472 --> 00:06:09,632 Speaker 3: but his crimes are extensive for the people of South 89 00:06:09,672 --> 00:06:14,671 Speaker 3: Australia in particular, his release feels all too soon. To 90 00:06:14,752 --> 00:06:17,192 Speaker 3: discuss Hayden and the fate of the other three men 91 00:06:17,232 --> 00:06:21,312 Speaker 3: who remain behind bars. We're joined by Jeremy Pudney. He 92 00:06:21,432 --> 00:06:23,472 Speaker 3: was one of the first journalists on the scene in 93 00:06:23,512 --> 00:06:25,992 Speaker 3: Snowtown when news of the Bodies in the Barrels broke. 94 00:06:26,712 --> 00:06:29,392 Speaker 3: He followed the case closely and has written a book 95 00:06:29,392 --> 00:06:34,072 Speaker 3: called Snowtown The Bodies in Barrel's Murders, and now as 96 00:06:34,112 --> 00:06:37,112 Speaker 3: the Adelaide News director at nine years his team is 97 00:06:37,152 --> 00:06:40,672 Speaker 3: responsible for the latest update, in this case, the exclusive 98 00:06:40,912 --> 00:06:45,112 Speaker 3: on Hayden's early release. Jeremy joins us now to take 99 00:06:45,192 --> 00:06:56,872 Speaker 3: us back to the start of the story. As far 100 00:06:56,912 --> 00:07:00,832 Speaker 3: as towns go, Snowtown, it's not just small, it's tiny, 101 00:07:01,632 --> 00:07:05,752 Speaker 3: and they now have this insane reputation even twenty five 102 00:07:05,832 --> 00:07:08,992 Speaker 3: years later. Tell us about the people of Snowtown. 103 00:07:09,312 --> 00:07:11,592 Speaker 2: Well, the sort of people you'd expect to find in 104 00:07:11,632 --> 00:07:15,032 Speaker 2: a small town like that, a town that is essentially 105 00:07:15,832 --> 00:07:19,352 Speaker 2: surviving on the farming activities that goes on around it, 106 00:07:19,672 --> 00:07:23,312 Speaker 2: and had probably lived through more prosperous times before that 107 00:07:24,192 --> 00:07:28,152 Speaker 2: and had become a little bit set aside, I guess, 108 00:07:28,272 --> 00:07:30,672 Speaker 2: being in off the main highway that heads north through 109 00:07:30,712 --> 00:07:33,552 Speaker 2: South Australia, and so it's a quiet place. It's a 110 00:07:33,552 --> 00:07:37,552 Speaker 2: tranquil place. Before this discovery was made, it would probably 111 00:07:37,592 --> 00:07:39,632 Speaker 2: be fair to say that no South Australians didn't know 112 00:07:39,672 --> 00:07:43,032 Speaker 2: where Snowtown was. And there's good people there. There were 113 00:07:43,072 --> 00:07:46,152 Speaker 2: good people there. Then there's good people there now. And 114 00:07:46,192 --> 00:07:48,352 Speaker 2: I think a really important part of this story is 115 00:07:48,392 --> 00:07:51,712 Speaker 2: that this has become known as the Snowtown murders, but 116 00:07:51,752 --> 00:07:54,792 Speaker 2: in actual fact, only one murder happened at Snowtown. It's 117 00:07:54,832 --> 00:07:57,912 Speaker 2: just where this discovery was made that turned it into 118 00:07:57,952 --> 00:08:00,872 Speaker 2: what we know it to be today. And the people 119 00:08:00,952 --> 00:08:04,192 Speaker 2: of Snowtown, some of whom watched as police went into 120 00:08:04,192 --> 00:08:07,232 Speaker 2: the bank that day and removed the arrels that night, 121 00:08:07,472 --> 00:08:10,832 Speaker 2: were just as shocked and surprised and disgusted as everybody else. 122 00:08:10,912 --> 00:08:13,872 Speaker 2: And so, to answer your question, they're good people there. 123 00:08:14,072 --> 00:08:16,112 Speaker 2: They always have been, they always will be, and I 124 00:08:16,152 --> 00:08:19,312 Speaker 2: think they've done a really admirable job of living beyond 125 00:08:19,632 --> 00:08:21,152 Speaker 2: the stigma that this has given them. 126 00:08:22,472 --> 00:08:25,232 Speaker 3: As you say, it's a shame Snowtown murders, it's the 127 00:08:25,232 --> 00:08:28,392 Speaker 3: phrase that we use to remember this crime. But the 128 00:08:28,472 --> 00:08:33,992 Speaker 3: story actually mainly resides in Adelaide, and it starts in 129 00:08:34,032 --> 00:08:37,912 Speaker 3: the early nineties with a man called John Justin Bunting. 130 00:08:39,232 --> 00:08:42,072 Speaker 3: Tell me a little bit about him and his background 131 00:08:42,112 --> 00:08:44,672 Speaker 3: and life in Salisbury, North Yeah. 132 00:08:44,712 --> 00:08:47,472 Speaker 2: Well, John Bunting was actually born in Brisbane in Queensland, 133 00:08:47,752 --> 00:08:50,472 Speaker 2: and he appeared troubled as a child. I think he 134 00:08:50,552 --> 00:08:53,151 Speaker 2: had some of the traits that people might expect him 135 00:08:53,152 --> 00:08:55,832 Speaker 2: to have displayed as a child, given what we now 136 00:08:55,912 --> 00:08:59,631 Speaker 2: know he was capable of. He was a school dropout. 137 00:08:59,952 --> 00:09:03,472 Speaker 2: He did have loving parents, but he exhibited some disturbing 138 00:09:03,512 --> 00:09:06,912 Speaker 2: traits even as a child. He liked to catch insects 139 00:09:06,952 --> 00:09:10,552 Speaker 2: and drop them into acid and watched them die, and 140 00:09:10,712 --> 00:09:13,192 Speaker 2: some of his behavior was bizarre or violent as a 141 00:09:13,272 --> 00:09:16,952 Speaker 2: child and as a young man, he moved to Adelaide, 142 00:09:16,952 --> 00:09:20,872 Speaker 2: to South Australia, and he began living in the northern 143 00:09:20,872 --> 00:09:24,911 Speaker 2: suburbs of Adelaide and working on and off and befriending 144 00:09:24,952 --> 00:09:28,112 Speaker 2: people in the northern suburbs of Adelaide, and he worked 145 00:09:28,192 --> 00:09:30,872 Speaker 2: at one point at an abatoir and used to brag 146 00:09:30,912 --> 00:09:33,352 Speaker 2: to some of his friends about how he enjoyed killing 147 00:09:33,392 --> 00:09:37,712 Speaker 2: the animals. And so there was some real alarm bells ringing, 148 00:09:37,712 --> 00:09:40,232 Speaker 2: some warning signs if you like, around John Bunting and 149 00:09:40,272 --> 00:09:43,832 Speaker 2: his personality and his behavior from a very early age. 150 00:09:44,432 --> 00:09:48,232 Speaker 2: And really what happened was he came to Adelaide, he 151 00:09:48,512 --> 00:09:50,992 Speaker 2: set himself up in the northern suburbs of Adelaide and 152 00:09:51,072 --> 00:09:53,992 Speaker 2: he began doing what he did for his entire adult 153 00:09:54,072 --> 00:09:56,992 Speaker 2: life until he went to jail, and that was finding 154 00:09:57,112 --> 00:10:01,472 Speaker 2: vulnerable people, manipulating them, and in some cases preying on them. 155 00:10:01,952 --> 00:10:05,752 Speaker 2: So he moved from one partner to another vulnerable people, 156 00:10:06,352 --> 00:10:11,832 Speaker 2: and then befriended his accomplices who were in some ways 157 00:10:11,952 --> 00:10:15,472 Speaker 2: vulnerable people, and embarked on the evil that we all 158 00:10:15,472 --> 00:10:16,152 Speaker 2: now know about. 159 00:10:17,832 --> 00:10:21,512 Speaker 3: I'm curious to get your thoughts on where this charm 160 00:10:21,632 --> 00:10:23,592 Speaker 3: comes from two befriends people. 161 00:10:24,912 --> 00:10:27,072 Speaker 2: I'm not sure he's someone that you or I would 162 00:10:27,072 --> 00:10:31,672 Speaker 2: find charming, but he certainly had some kind of charisma that, 163 00:10:31,912 --> 00:10:36,152 Speaker 2: having never met him in person, I can't describe accurately, 164 00:10:36,272 --> 00:10:39,472 Speaker 2: except to say that he did appear to have this 165 00:10:39,592 --> 00:10:46,472 Speaker 2: ability to captivate people, or manipulate people, or get them 166 00:10:46,512 --> 00:10:49,872 Speaker 2: to take part in things that they otherwise wouldn't have, 167 00:10:50,312 --> 00:10:53,192 Speaker 2: and that you and I would be horrified by what 168 00:10:53,312 --> 00:10:55,552 Speaker 2: we know about everybody that he did that too, the 169 00:10:55,592 --> 00:10:59,552 Speaker 2: people that he manipulated into taking part in murder with him, 170 00:10:59,952 --> 00:11:03,632 Speaker 2: the people that he manipulated into covering it up, or 171 00:11:03,672 --> 00:11:06,072 Speaker 2: the people that he prayed on. We know that they 172 00:11:06,072 --> 00:11:09,712 Speaker 2: were all vulnerable in some way. They'd either had terrible 173 00:11:09,752 --> 00:11:15,952 Speaker 2: lives and needed someone or they had intellectual disabilities, or 174 00:11:15,992 --> 00:11:19,352 Speaker 2: they had some other form of difficulty that made them 175 00:11:19,672 --> 00:11:22,712 Speaker 2: easier for him to manipulate and easier for him to 176 00:11:22,712 --> 00:11:23,072 Speaker 2: pray on. 177 00:11:24,552 --> 00:11:27,192 Speaker 3: Let's talk about that more specifically, because two of the 178 00:11:27,232 --> 00:11:31,672 Speaker 3: men he befriended, Mark Hayden and Robert Wagner, he went 179 00:11:31,712 --> 00:11:34,712 Speaker 3: on to offend with. Let's start with Wagner. What was 180 00:11:34,712 --> 00:11:35,352 Speaker 3: his story? 181 00:11:36,112 --> 00:11:40,752 Speaker 2: So, Robert Wagner did genuinely have a terrible childhood. He 182 00:11:41,072 --> 00:11:45,832 Speaker 2: was sexually abused at a very early age, and it 183 00:11:45,952 --> 00:11:48,592 Speaker 2: absolutely had a profound effect on him, There's no doubt 184 00:11:48,632 --> 00:11:51,352 Speaker 2: about that. It does not excuse what he did, but 185 00:11:51,432 --> 00:11:55,432 Speaker 2: it explains where he came from. He then ends up 186 00:11:55,472 --> 00:11:58,912 Speaker 2: in the northern suburbs of Adelaide with his mother who's 187 00:11:58,912 --> 00:12:03,232 Speaker 2: struggling really to raise him and control him, and he 188 00:12:03,432 --> 00:12:06,992 Speaker 2: is lured groomed, if you like, we would call it 189 00:12:07,032 --> 00:12:10,352 Speaker 2: now by a pedophile by the name of Barry Lane, 190 00:12:10,912 --> 00:12:15,632 Speaker 2: who ultimately becomes one of the victims. Now, Barry Lane 191 00:12:15,992 --> 00:12:19,912 Speaker 2: leures Robert Wagner, and by the time Robert Wagner is 192 00:12:19,912 --> 00:12:23,632 Speaker 2: fourteen years old, he's living with Barry Lane and essentially 193 00:12:23,792 --> 00:12:28,152 Speaker 2: being sexually abused by a pedophile and being controlled by him, 194 00:12:28,432 --> 00:12:31,392 Speaker 2: and he disappears with Barry Lane and his mum, hears 195 00:12:31,432 --> 00:12:35,072 Speaker 2: nothing of him, only for them to resurface in the 196 00:12:35,112 --> 00:12:38,672 Speaker 2: northern suburbs of Adelaide in Salisbury North, which is where 197 00:12:39,192 --> 00:12:42,872 Speaker 2: John Bunting comes to meet Robert Wagner and Barry Lane, 198 00:12:43,552 --> 00:12:48,792 Speaker 2: and that association begins. And John Bunting had this burning 199 00:12:48,872 --> 00:12:53,512 Speaker 2: hatred of homosexual people and had this warped inability to 200 00:12:53,632 --> 00:12:57,792 Speaker 2: differentiate between someone who was homosexual and someone who was 201 00:12:57,832 --> 00:13:01,632 Speaker 2: a pedophile. He, in many regards, believed that that was 202 00:13:01,672 --> 00:13:05,192 Speaker 2: one and the same, and he absolutely would have seen 203 00:13:05,552 --> 00:13:08,712 Speaker 2: Barry Lane for what he was and hated him right 204 00:13:08,752 --> 00:13:12,472 Speaker 2: from the beginning, and had some empathy for Robert Wagner 205 00:13:12,672 --> 00:13:15,552 Speaker 2: as someone who was young and being controlled by Barry Lane. 206 00:13:16,552 --> 00:13:19,512 Speaker 2: And so from a very early stage after meeting them, 207 00:13:20,032 --> 00:13:23,552 Speaker 2: he was manipulating Barry Lane to help him with things, 208 00:13:23,952 --> 00:13:28,032 Speaker 2: at the same time befriending and persuading Robert Wagner to 209 00:13:28,112 --> 00:13:28,631 Speaker 2: his way of. 210 00:13:28,592 --> 00:13:32,712 Speaker 3: Thinking, How about Mark, how does he come into contact 211 00:13:32,712 --> 00:13:33,112 Speaker 3: with him? 212 00:13:33,512 --> 00:13:36,192 Speaker 2: So that happens a little later, and it's as simple 213 00:13:36,232 --> 00:13:40,432 Speaker 2: as John Bunting and Mark Hayden meeting at a welding course, 214 00:13:40,992 --> 00:13:42,592 Speaker 2: because these are people who are in and out of 215 00:13:42,592 --> 00:13:46,232 Speaker 2: work and sometimes undertaking training in the hope of finding 216 00:13:46,312 --> 00:13:50,472 Speaker 2: new work. And they met at a worlding course. And 217 00:13:50,632 --> 00:13:53,952 Speaker 2: once again, I think it's fair to say that John 218 00:13:53,992 --> 00:13:56,752 Speaker 2: Bunting identified Mark Hayden as someone who could be of 219 00:13:56,832 --> 00:14:00,392 Speaker 2: use to him and as someone who was easily manipulated. 220 00:14:01,072 --> 00:14:03,952 Speaker 2: And I think everything that you ever read or see 221 00:14:03,992 --> 00:14:07,752 Speaker 2: about Mark Hayden is that he is not a particularly 222 00:14:07,792 --> 00:14:11,232 Speaker 2: intelligent man and he was easy for John Bunting to control. 223 00:14:12,832 --> 00:14:15,472 Speaker 3: There's a fourth member of this group that later go 224 00:14:15,552 --> 00:14:19,112 Speaker 3: on to be convicted for these crimes, twenty three year 225 00:14:19,112 --> 00:14:24,552 Speaker 3: old James or Jamie Lasarkus. What was his connection to Bunting. 226 00:14:25,192 --> 00:14:28,312 Speaker 2: This is the real tragedy, one of the real tragedies 227 00:14:28,312 --> 00:14:32,472 Speaker 2: in this story, because James Lasarkus is another person in 228 00:14:32,512 --> 00:14:34,712 Speaker 2: this story, and it's so common in this story. He 229 00:14:34,872 --> 00:14:38,232 Speaker 2: was abused as a child. By the time he crosses 230 00:14:38,272 --> 00:14:42,032 Speaker 2: paths with John Bunting, is living with his mother who's 231 00:14:42,032 --> 00:14:45,592 Speaker 2: by herself in the northern suburbs of Adelaide, and there's 232 00:14:45,592 --> 00:14:48,832 Speaker 2: another brother living there too. In fact, there's three or 233 00:14:48,872 --> 00:14:53,352 Speaker 2: four at any given time. So James Lasarkus's mother Elizabeth 234 00:14:53,392 --> 00:14:56,592 Speaker 2: Harvey is living in the northern suburbs of Adelaide and 235 00:14:56,712 --> 00:15:00,472 Speaker 2: meets John Bunting and they begin a relationship, and so 236 00:15:00,632 --> 00:15:06,472 Speaker 2: John Bunting becomes James Blasarkus's stepfather. Now, James Barkus had 237 00:15:06,352 --> 00:15:09,672 Speaker 2: had been abused by his own father, who he then 238 00:15:09,832 --> 00:15:12,352 Speaker 2: saw die of a heart attack right in front of him, 239 00:15:12,832 --> 00:15:15,352 Speaker 2: and he was a really troubled kid as a result 240 00:15:15,432 --> 00:15:17,112 Speaker 2: of everything that had happened to him and that he 241 00:15:17,192 --> 00:15:21,512 Speaker 2: had seen. And then, as fate would have it, this 242 00:15:21,632 --> 00:15:24,472 Speaker 2: troubled kid, who could have been set on the right path, 243 00:15:24,712 --> 00:15:27,432 Speaker 2: ends up with John Bunting as his stepfather, and that's 244 00:15:27,432 --> 00:15:29,072 Speaker 2: where it all goes wrong for him. 245 00:15:29,872 --> 00:15:33,672 Speaker 3: You mentioned before Bunting's kind of hatred that underpins everything. 246 00:15:33,792 --> 00:15:38,352 Speaker 3: He hates homosexuals, he hates pedophiles. Tell us about his 247 00:15:38,392 --> 00:15:39,392 Speaker 3: wall of spiders. 248 00:15:40,512 --> 00:15:42,232 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, and I think it's really important to put 249 00:15:42,272 --> 00:15:45,792 Speaker 2: John Bunting's behavior into context because there's no justification for 250 00:15:45,872 --> 00:15:49,752 Speaker 2: what he did. And he did hate pedophiles. As a teenager, 251 00:15:49,832 --> 00:15:55,832 Speaker 2: he was interested in Nazism, white supremacy, Adolf Hitler, and 252 00:15:55,872 --> 00:15:58,912 Speaker 2: he also had this hatred of pedophiles, and he hated 253 00:15:58,912 --> 00:16:01,032 Speaker 2: homosexual people. When he saw them, as I said, as 254 00:16:01,552 --> 00:16:04,832 Speaker 2: the same thing in a really warped way. And so 255 00:16:05,592 --> 00:16:07,832 Speaker 2: he had almost adopted by the time he's living in 256 00:16:07,872 --> 00:16:13,152 Speaker 2: the northern suburbs of Adelaide, this vigilante mindset towards anyone 257 00:16:13,232 --> 00:16:16,792 Speaker 2: he thought was a pedophile who was praying on children. 258 00:16:17,112 --> 00:16:20,632 Speaker 2: And so in his home in Salisbury North he had created, 259 00:16:20,992 --> 00:16:24,432 Speaker 2: using string and post it notes, what he described as 260 00:16:24,472 --> 00:16:26,952 Speaker 2: a wall of spiders, a term he would use to 261 00:16:26,952 --> 00:16:30,432 Speaker 2: refer to pedophiles, where he would keep small snippets of 262 00:16:30,512 --> 00:16:35,152 Speaker 2: information on people that he perceived were pedophiles or a 263 00:16:35,272 --> 00:16:37,952 Speaker 2: risk to children. And of course some of these people 264 00:16:38,072 --> 00:16:41,272 Speaker 2: were not. They had done nothing wrong. In his warped view, 265 00:16:41,392 --> 00:16:43,952 Speaker 2: he had honed in on them, and he was using 266 00:16:44,192 --> 00:16:47,792 Speaker 2: in particular Barry Lane to collect information on these people, 267 00:16:48,272 --> 00:16:50,112 Speaker 2: or in some cases they were just people in the 268 00:16:50,112 --> 00:16:54,712 Speaker 2: immediate area. And so it was a kind of manifestation 269 00:16:54,952 --> 00:16:57,912 Speaker 2: on the wall in his house of his warped view 270 00:16:57,952 --> 00:17:00,232 Speaker 2: of the world and the reason he hated people. 271 00:17:01,032 --> 00:17:04,032 Speaker 3: It sounds like something from criminal minds, you know, when 272 00:17:04,392 --> 00:17:06,232 Speaker 3: they close in and they've got all the pictures. 273 00:17:06,831 --> 00:17:08,591 Speaker 2: And I'm sure later on he was at the center 274 00:17:08,632 --> 00:17:11,712 Speaker 2: of something very similar in a police headquarters somewhere. But yeah, 275 00:17:11,792 --> 00:17:14,472 Speaker 2: it was just a real display of his warped view 276 00:17:14,552 --> 00:17:18,111 Speaker 2: of people who had done nothing wrong, some had, some 277 00:17:18,192 --> 00:17:21,671 Speaker 2: had not, and of the world. And it was just, 278 00:17:21,952 --> 00:17:24,351 Speaker 2: I guess, a reflection of the hatred that he had. 279 00:17:24,952 --> 00:17:28,511 Speaker 2: And this is a man who began by justifying his 280 00:17:28,631 --> 00:17:31,911 Speaker 2: killings in this way, but by the end of this 281 00:17:32,032 --> 00:17:35,671 Speaker 2: killing spree, he was killing people for pleasure. He was 282 00:17:35,752 --> 00:17:38,471 Speaker 2: killing people for money. That's one of the most difficult 283 00:17:38,512 --> 00:17:41,872 Speaker 2: things about this story. There's no clear motive. There's absolutely 284 00:17:41,911 --> 00:17:45,192 Speaker 2: no justification. What we've got here is one human who 285 00:17:45,272 --> 00:17:48,351 Speaker 2: just liked to kill people who happened to find a 286 00:17:48,391 --> 00:17:50,831 Speaker 2: couple of others who were prepared to help him do it, 287 00:17:51,192 --> 00:17:53,791 Speaker 2: and in at least one case, that of Robert Wagner, 288 00:17:53,831 --> 00:17:55,311 Speaker 2: appeared to enjoy it just as much. 289 00:17:56,752 --> 00:17:59,111 Speaker 3: This killing spree started, as far as we know, in 290 00:17:59,232 --> 00:18:04,671 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety two. Tell us about that first victim, because 291 00:18:04,671 --> 00:18:08,192 Speaker 3: that body actually went un id identified for tight some time. 292 00:18:08,871 --> 00:18:11,672 Speaker 2: That's right, So that's clinton trecize. He was a young man, 293 00:18:11,752 --> 00:18:16,591 Speaker 2: twenty two, and he was an openly gay man, and 294 00:18:16,712 --> 00:18:20,071 Speaker 2: he was a little bit disenfranchised from his family. He 295 00:18:20,232 --> 00:18:23,671 Speaker 2: was living in the same area that we talk about, 296 00:18:23,671 --> 00:18:25,951 Speaker 2: which is the epicenter for this in the beginning, Adelaide's 297 00:18:25,952 --> 00:18:29,191 Speaker 2: northern suburbs and that Salisbury North area, and he was 298 00:18:29,391 --> 00:18:32,671 Speaker 2: friends with or known to Barry Lane. He was known 299 00:18:32,712 --> 00:18:35,432 Speaker 2: in the area by nickname Happy Pants because he would 300 00:18:35,472 --> 00:18:38,152 Speaker 2: wear these colorful pants. It was kind of his thing. 301 00:18:38,671 --> 00:18:43,151 Speaker 2: And this was really where John Bunting's hatred of people 302 00:18:43,192 --> 00:18:46,591 Speaker 2: who are homosexual came to the fore. And he had 303 00:18:46,631 --> 00:18:50,712 Speaker 2: decided in his own mind, probably fueled by the sort 304 00:18:50,752 --> 00:18:54,351 Speaker 2: of vile nonsense that Barry Lane would speak and that 305 00:18:54,472 --> 00:18:59,071 Speaker 2: Robert Wagner would echo, that Clinton Trecize was a pedophile, 306 00:19:00,192 --> 00:19:05,152 Speaker 2: and so on a visit to John Bunting's home, he 307 00:19:05,351 --> 00:19:08,632 Speaker 2: was attacked from behind with a hammer and murdered right 308 00:19:08,671 --> 00:19:12,951 Speaker 2: there in the house. And then his remains were taken 309 00:19:13,431 --> 00:19:17,111 Speaker 2: by Bunting with the assistance of Wagner and Lane, and 310 00:19:17,192 --> 00:19:19,192 Speaker 2: dumped in a paddock at a place called lower Light, 311 00:19:19,311 --> 00:19:23,591 Speaker 2: which is north of Adelaide and not found for some time. 312 00:19:24,272 --> 00:19:27,311 Speaker 2: I think it was nineteen ninety four by a couple 313 00:19:27,391 --> 00:19:29,831 Speaker 2: of old farmers who were just tending to their paddock. 314 00:19:31,272 --> 00:19:33,671 Speaker 3: So he was originally a missing person, and then it 315 00:19:33,712 --> 00:19:38,391 Speaker 3: wasn't until the disappearance of Barry Lane that police started 316 00:19:38,391 --> 00:19:41,351 Speaker 3: to kind of at least link the two tell us 317 00:19:41,351 --> 00:19:42,952 Speaker 3: about that tell us about Lane. 318 00:19:43,631 --> 00:19:46,191 Speaker 2: That's where the story's quite complicated, because there was a 319 00:19:46,192 --> 00:19:49,071 Speaker 2: couple of things happening in parallel in terms of the 320 00:19:49,071 --> 00:19:53,512 Speaker 2: police investigation. The first thing is that Elizabeth Hayden, who 321 00:19:53,552 --> 00:19:56,991 Speaker 2: was Mark Haden's wife, had gone missing, and her brother 322 00:19:57,111 --> 00:19:59,792 Speaker 2: had refused to accept the explanation that she had just 323 00:19:59,952 --> 00:20:02,272 Speaker 2: up and left that he was being given, and he 324 00:20:02,351 --> 00:20:05,951 Speaker 2: reported her missing. But at the same time, there was 325 00:20:05,952 --> 00:20:12,472 Speaker 2: already a cold case missing person's review underway, and that 326 00:20:12,631 --> 00:20:18,431 Speaker 2: had begun really with a Clinton precise and also Barry 327 00:20:18,512 --> 00:20:24,591 Speaker 2: Lane who had vanished, and then also Susanne Allen, another 328 00:20:24,671 --> 00:20:27,831 Speaker 2: person from the Northern Suburbs who had vanished, and Ray 329 00:20:27,911 --> 00:20:30,591 Speaker 2: Davies who had lived in a caravan in her backyard 330 00:20:31,071 --> 00:20:34,792 Speaker 2: who had also vanished. And what had come up when 331 00:20:35,431 --> 00:20:40,032 Speaker 2: a particular missing person's officer started to look through one 332 00:20:40,192 --> 00:20:42,711 Speaker 2: file and then the next and then the next was 333 00:20:42,752 --> 00:20:47,191 Speaker 2: this overlap of addresses or associates and the same names 334 00:20:47,272 --> 00:20:50,391 Speaker 2: kept coming up, and that was John Bunting and Robert Wagner. 335 00:20:50,752 --> 00:20:53,711 Speaker 2: John Bunting and Robert Wagner in relation to having had 336 00:20:53,792 --> 00:20:57,592 Speaker 2: contact with these people, or having been friends of these people, 337 00:20:57,992 --> 00:21:01,111 Speaker 2: or having been last seen with these people. So that's 338 00:21:01,111 --> 00:21:04,552 Speaker 2: happening in background in the major crime missing person's officers. 339 00:21:05,472 --> 00:21:08,272 Speaker 2: At the same time, some detectives in the northern suburbs 340 00:21:08,272 --> 00:21:12,831 Speaker 2: of Adelaide are investigating the disappearance of Elizabeth Hayden, and 341 00:21:12,871 --> 00:21:17,272 Speaker 2: because that becomes a missing person's case, that information makes 342 00:21:17,311 --> 00:21:22,392 Speaker 2: its way into headquarters. And then there's this connection between Wagner, Bunting, 343 00:21:22,871 --> 00:21:26,311 Speaker 2: the husband of the missing woman, Mark Hayden, and these 344 00:21:26,351 --> 00:21:30,471 Speaker 2: other files, and that's when the police investigation really gathers 345 00:21:30,472 --> 00:21:34,272 Speaker 2: significant momentum. This is a time where perhaps the technology 346 00:21:35,071 --> 00:21:37,671 Speaker 2: wasn't what it is now, and some of these connections 347 00:21:37,752 --> 00:21:42,871 Speaker 2: might be made using elaborate computer programs, these were connections 348 00:21:42,911 --> 00:21:45,591 Speaker 2: that had to be made by humans looking through different files. 349 00:21:46,272 --> 00:21:48,672 Speaker 2: It's something that perhaps would have been more quickly detected 350 00:21:48,712 --> 00:21:51,272 Speaker 2: in this day and age than back when this was. 351 00:21:52,712 --> 00:21:55,311 Speaker 3: Let's fill in some of the gaps here, because I 352 00:21:55,351 --> 00:21:57,632 Speaker 3: think it's worth pointing out at this point that all 353 00:21:57,671 --> 00:22:01,591 Speaker 3: of these victims have some kind of connection to Bunting 354 00:22:01,792 --> 00:22:05,631 Speaker 3: or some of his associates. They're all kind of interwoven. 355 00:22:06,631 --> 00:22:08,512 Speaker 3: What about Susan and Ray? 356 00:22:09,752 --> 00:22:13,311 Speaker 2: So Suzanne Allen lived in the same general area as 357 00:22:13,391 --> 00:22:16,751 Speaker 2: John Bunting where he's already living with a partner, and 358 00:22:16,831 --> 00:22:21,191 Speaker 2: it appears they had some sort of romantic connection or 359 00:22:21,232 --> 00:22:25,232 Speaker 2: in some sort of relationship, And it appears Suzanne Allen 360 00:22:25,752 --> 00:22:30,471 Speaker 2: became infatuated with John Bunting and perhaps also had some 361 00:22:30,712 --> 00:22:35,031 Speaker 2: knowledge of things that John Bunting had done in relation 362 00:22:35,111 --> 00:22:39,232 Speaker 2: to Clinton drecise. And so she became a problem for 363 00:22:39,311 --> 00:22:43,351 Speaker 2: John Bunting in that she had become a pest to 364 00:22:43,472 --> 00:22:47,591 Speaker 2: him in relation to her unrequited love for him, and 365 00:22:47,631 --> 00:22:51,912 Speaker 2: he was also concerned that she knew too much. Now, 366 00:22:51,992 --> 00:22:54,992 Speaker 2: John Bunting has never been convicted of her murder. This 367 00:22:55,071 --> 00:22:59,111 Speaker 2: is the twelfth victim, if you like, whose remains were found, 368 00:22:59,192 --> 00:23:01,871 Speaker 2: but the jury was never able to be sure that 369 00:23:02,111 --> 00:23:05,831 Speaker 2: he killed her. But he killed her and her body 370 00:23:05,992 --> 00:23:09,152 Speaker 2: was membered, and she was one of the two victims 371 00:23:09,151 --> 00:23:12,151 Speaker 2: whose remains were found buried in the backyard of the 372 00:23:12,151 --> 00:23:13,792 Speaker 2: house that he had lived at at the time. 373 00:23:14,792 --> 00:23:18,191 Speaker 3: The other gap I want to focus in on is 374 00:23:18,272 --> 00:23:22,192 Speaker 3: the disappearance you mentioned of Elizabeth Hayden, Because as we've 375 00:23:22,192 --> 00:23:26,071 Speaker 3: mentioned she's the wife of Mark. What were the circumstances 376 00:23:26,111 --> 00:23:29,432 Speaker 3: around her disappearance and will we find out murder? 377 00:23:30,111 --> 00:23:33,672 Speaker 2: So she's living with Mark and her children in their 378 00:23:33,712 --> 00:23:37,591 Speaker 2: house in Smithfield, which is also in the northern suburbs 379 00:23:37,631 --> 00:23:40,591 Speaker 2: of Adelaide. John Bunting and Robert Wagner are thick as 380 00:23:40,631 --> 00:23:43,472 Speaker 2: thieves with Mark Hayden. They're coming and going from there 381 00:23:43,512 --> 00:23:47,791 Speaker 2: all the time. John Bunting is unable to not brag 382 00:23:47,831 --> 00:23:50,631 Speaker 2: about some of the things he's done. And there's a 383 00:23:50,671 --> 00:23:54,151 Speaker 2: strong belief that Elizabeth Hayden had some knowledge of things 384 00:23:54,192 --> 00:23:58,071 Speaker 2: that had been going on, and also was just perceived 385 00:23:58,151 --> 00:24:01,952 Speaker 2: as an annoyance, as a pest, someone who was disposable 386 00:24:02,351 --> 00:24:05,991 Speaker 2: by these people. And by this time John Bunting and 387 00:24:06,071 --> 00:24:10,991 Speaker 2: Robert Wagner had developed quite the enjoyment of killing, and 388 00:24:11,071 --> 00:24:14,951 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Hayden became their next target, and so she was murdered, 389 00:24:15,792 --> 00:24:19,192 Speaker 2: and her husband has never been convicted of taking part 390 00:24:19,232 --> 00:24:23,392 Speaker 2: in that murder, of being an accomplice to it, of 391 00:24:23,431 --> 00:24:27,191 Speaker 2: covering it up along with six others, and her body 392 00:24:27,272 --> 00:24:29,432 Speaker 2: was one of those that were found in the barrels 393 00:24:29,431 --> 00:24:30,311 Speaker 2: in the Snowtown Bank. 394 00:24:35,272 --> 00:24:39,032 Speaker 3: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Jemma Bath. 395 00:24:39,591 --> 00:24:44,632 Speaker 3: I'm speaking with journalist Jeremy Pudney about Australia's notorious Snowtown murders. 396 00:24:52,071 --> 00:24:55,231 Speaker 3: There's so many victims in this story, it's hard to 397 00:24:55,272 --> 00:24:59,391 Speaker 3: even comprehend, and there's so many different lives here, and 398 00:24:59,431 --> 00:25:01,511 Speaker 3: as you mentioned, it feels like as time has gone on, 399 00:25:01,992 --> 00:25:05,151 Speaker 3: they've killed just for the sake of killing. One of 400 00:25:05,192 --> 00:25:08,192 Speaker 3: the victims troyyud Well. 401 00:25:08,232 --> 00:25:14,392 Speaker 2: Troy Jude was the half brother of James Losarkus, and 402 00:25:14,792 --> 00:25:18,711 Speaker 2: there is some suggestion that Troy Eude and James Lasarkus, 403 00:25:19,311 --> 00:25:22,871 Speaker 2: as half brothers, didn't get along. There was a suggestion 404 00:25:23,071 --> 00:25:27,192 Speaker 2: that he may have in some way been abusive towards 405 00:25:27,272 --> 00:25:32,631 Speaker 2: James Lasarkus. But also Troy Jude was an annoyance to 406 00:25:32,712 --> 00:25:36,552 Speaker 2: John Bunting. Of course, troyud is the son of Elizabeth Harvey, 407 00:25:36,552 --> 00:25:40,591 Speaker 2: who Bunting is in a de facto relationship with. He 408 00:25:40,671 --> 00:25:42,791 Speaker 2: was also a drug user, and that's something else that 409 00:25:42,831 --> 00:25:47,351 Speaker 2: Bunting despised, and he became an irritation and at this 410 00:25:47,472 --> 00:25:51,471 Speaker 2: point just an obvious target to John Bunting. And so 411 00:25:52,351 --> 00:25:55,391 Speaker 2: like so many of the victims here, it was someone 412 00:25:55,431 --> 00:25:59,111 Speaker 2: that John Bunting decided should be murdered and was murdered 413 00:25:59,151 --> 00:26:02,071 Speaker 2: with the help of others, in this case, not only 414 00:26:02,512 --> 00:26:05,911 Speaker 2: Robert Wagner, but with the help and understanding of his 415 00:26:06,512 --> 00:26:07,712 Speaker 2: brother James Lesarkas. 416 00:26:09,311 --> 00:26:14,672 Speaker 3: When did Lasarkus start being included in this murderous rampage. 417 00:26:15,111 --> 00:26:18,751 Speaker 2: It began with the murder of Gavin Porter. Now, I 418 00:26:18,792 --> 00:26:22,992 Speaker 2: think from memory. Gavin Porter was murdered in nineteen ninety eight, 419 00:26:23,032 --> 00:26:26,792 Speaker 2: and he was a friend of James Lasarkus. He was 420 00:26:26,831 --> 00:26:31,232 Speaker 2: also a drug user. James Lasarkus had his challenges with drugs, 421 00:26:31,712 --> 00:26:35,912 Speaker 2: but Gavin Porter was otherwise an apparently decent person who 422 00:26:35,992 --> 00:26:39,711 Speaker 2: was just struggling with an addiction and was enduring a 423 00:26:39,752 --> 00:26:43,752 Speaker 2: difficult life. And Bunting had viewed him as a waste 424 00:26:43,792 --> 00:26:46,831 Speaker 2: of space, an annoyance, like he did with so many 425 00:26:46,831 --> 00:26:50,192 Speaker 2: of these people. There's no suggestion Gavin Porter had really 426 00:26:50,232 --> 00:26:53,831 Speaker 2: done anything bad to anyone, and Bunting had decided that 427 00:26:53,911 --> 00:26:57,632 Speaker 2: he should be murdered. And Porter was murdered by Bunting 428 00:26:57,671 --> 00:27:02,191 Speaker 2: and Wagner, and the body dragged into the house and 429 00:27:02,272 --> 00:27:05,591 Speaker 2: Vlasarkus brought into the room to be shown his dead friend. 430 00:27:06,552 --> 00:27:09,232 Speaker 2: And that was really the beginning of this indoctrination into 431 00:27:09,272 --> 00:27:13,191 Speaker 2: the killing by Bunting off James Lasarkus. So he sees 432 00:27:13,232 --> 00:27:16,272 Speaker 2: his dead friend laying there, he knows that he's been 433 00:27:16,351 --> 00:27:20,111 Speaker 2: murdered by Bunting and Wagner. And he has always said 434 00:27:20,151 --> 00:27:22,391 Speaker 2: that from that point on he not only was under 435 00:27:22,391 --> 00:27:25,472 Speaker 2: bunting spell, but was living in fear that he would 436 00:27:25,512 --> 00:27:28,151 Speaker 2: be the next victim. And the only way to not 437 00:27:28,232 --> 00:27:30,552 Speaker 2: be the next victim was to do what he was 438 00:27:30,591 --> 00:27:33,472 Speaker 2: told to do. And this is a young man who's 439 00:27:33,871 --> 00:27:38,512 Speaker 2: already broken and is not strong in any way, and 440 00:27:38,552 --> 00:27:42,431 Speaker 2: so it's difficult for right minded, right thinking people to 441 00:27:42,472 --> 00:27:45,071 Speaker 2: see how he couldn't just raise the alarm. But it's 442 00:27:45,111 --> 00:27:47,671 Speaker 2: a different set of circumstances, and so that's how it began. 443 00:27:48,591 --> 00:27:51,431 Speaker 2: And so from that point on he was roped into 444 00:27:51,472 --> 00:27:58,111 Speaker 2: the murders and often involved in luring victims. Or was 445 00:27:58,192 --> 00:28:02,311 Speaker 2: the connection between Bunting and Wagner and the victims. It 446 00:28:02,391 --> 00:28:05,911 Speaker 2: was through Vlassarcus's associations that some of these people became 447 00:28:05,952 --> 00:28:06,951 Speaker 2: obvious to the killers. 448 00:28:08,752 --> 00:28:11,871 Speaker 3: What were the other men's roles. We've got Bunting, who's 449 00:28:11,952 --> 00:28:16,111 Speaker 3: obviously the ring leader. Wagner was often referred to as 450 00:28:16,192 --> 00:28:18,351 Speaker 3: kind of the right hand man. He was also doing 451 00:28:18,552 --> 00:28:20,031 Speaker 3: a lot of the brutality, wasn't he. 452 00:28:20,671 --> 00:28:23,431 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, Bunting's not a big man. He's not a 453 00:28:23,431 --> 00:28:26,272 Speaker 2: particularly strong man. He's not weak, but he's not big. 454 00:28:26,752 --> 00:28:32,352 Speaker 2: He's not intimidating in any way. Robert Wagner's a big man, tall, imposing, 455 00:28:32,952 --> 00:28:35,752 Speaker 2: and so he was the muscle, if you like. And 456 00:28:35,792 --> 00:28:40,751 Speaker 2: so in that initial moment where they begin to murder someone, 457 00:28:41,392 --> 00:28:45,592 Speaker 2: it typically started with Robert Wagner overpowering them and then 458 00:28:45,792 --> 00:28:49,992 Speaker 2: John Bunting taking part. And one of the really terrible things, 459 00:28:50,392 --> 00:28:53,512 Speaker 2: if things like this can be more terrible, is the 460 00:28:53,512 --> 00:28:55,832 Speaker 2: torture that some of these victims endure it. And so 461 00:28:56,352 --> 00:28:59,792 Speaker 2: in the beginning, these were murders, and they very quickly 462 00:28:59,832 --> 00:29:05,552 Speaker 2: developed into torture and then murder and some extended periods 463 00:29:05,552 --> 00:29:10,872 Speaker 2: of torture. That was conducted by John Bunting and Robert Wagner, 464 00:29:11,312 --> 00:29:15,752 Speaker 2: and that was witnessed by a James Lasakas. And these 465 00:29:15,792 --> 00:29:19,872 Speaker 2: people were killed slowly, in some cases very slowly, and. 466 00:29:19,832 --> 00:29:22,991 Speaker 3: There was a cruelty. Obviously torture is cruel, but they 467 00:29:22,992 --> 00:29:27,592 Speaker 3: were making their victims call them names. So some of 468 00:29:27,671 --> 00:29:30,992 Speaker 3: the ones in your book that you mentioned Lord, Sir 469 00:29:31,232 --> 00:29:34,392 Speaker 3: and God and kind of humiliating their victims in the process. 470 00:29:35,152 --> 00:29:38,032 Speaker 2: Humiliation but also power. For John Bunting, you know, like 471 00:29:38,072 --> 00:29:40,072 Speaker 2: I said, he had this warped view of the world, 472 00:29:40,192 --> 00:29:43,471 Speaker 2: this evil perspective, and he honestly believed that he was 473 00:29:43,552 --> 00:29:47,832 Speaker 2: there to impose justice on people and to protect other people, 474 00:29:48,352 --> 00:29:51,272 Speaker 2: and he viewed himself as God like, and so he 475 00:29:51,312 --> 00:29:54,632 Speaker 2: would make his victims refer to him in this way. 476 00:29:55,232 --> 00:29:58,392 Speaker 2: It was also a form of humiliation, a form of torture. 477 00:29:58,752 --> 00:30:00,632 Speaker 2: You know, they would laugh at their victims, they would 478 00:30:00,671 --> 00:30:03,911 Speaker 2: relish in the pain that they are experiencing. And you know, 479 00:30:03,992 --> 00:30:07,232 Speaker 2: this is something that is probably one of the most 480 00:30:07,312 --> 00:30:10,632 Speaker 2: resounding aspects for me of the case. This was not 481 00:30:10,992 --> 00:30:15,112 Speaker 2: a moment of rage. This was sustained serial killing with 482 00:30:15,272 --> 00:30:18,872 Speaker 2: torture and killing for pleasure. They would also do things 483 00:30:18,952 --> 00:30:22,791 Speaker 2: like force their victims to make voice recordings that they 484 00:30:22,832 --> 00:30:26,991 Speaker 2: would try and use to fool relatives over the phone, 485 00:30:27,072 --> 00:30:30,231 Speaker 2: for example, into believing that the victims were still alive. 486 00:30:31,112 --> 00:30:35,191 Speaker 2: And they would also torture them for financial information like 487 00:30:35,792 --> 00:30:39,792 Speaker 2: banking pin numbers and other information because really, as an 488 00:30:39,832 --> 00:30:42,552 Speaker 2: aside to what they were doing, they would pil for 489 00:30:42,671 --> 00:30:45,792 Speaker 2: some of their victims bank accounts afterwards, and sometimes in 490 00:30:45,832 --> 00:30:49,232 Speaker 2: an ongoing way. Some of these victims were on welfare 491 00:30:49,272 --> 00:30:53,192 Speaker 2: benefits regular payments into their bank accounts, and the killers 492 00:30:53,232 --> 00:30:57,031 Speaker 2: would often be withdrawing that money as it was deposited 493 00:30:57,552 --> 00:30:59,032 Speaker 2: and sharing it amongst themselves. 494 00:31:00,431 --> 00:31:02,592 Speaker 3: Where were these murders taking place. 495 00:31:03,232 --> 00:31:07,672 Speaker 2: Obviously the early murders those of Clinton Tressize and Ray 496 00:31:07,752 --> 00:31:10,312 Speaker 2: Davies and Susann Allen, even though there was never a 497 00:31:10,312 --> 00:31:14,312 Speaker 2: formal conviction for murder, Michael Gardner, Barry Lane as well 498 00:31:14,872 --> 00:31:17,672 Speaker 2: and Thomas Trevillian. They all happened in the northern suburbs 499 00:31:17,671 --> 00:31:21,032 Speaker 2: of Adelaide, so in and around where John Bunting was living, 500 00:31:21,072 --> 00:31:24,232 Speaker 2: because that's really how these people came to his attention 501 00:31:24,352 --> 00:31:27,072 Speaker 2: and how these people were in the circle in the realm, 502 00:31:27,072 --> 00:31:29,951 Speaker 2: if you like. But then at some point John Bunting 503 00:31:29,992 --> 00:31:33,632 Speaker 2: and Elizabeth Harvey, with James Flosarkus and Troy Yude on 504 00:31:33,671 --> 00:31:36,832 Speaker 2: and off, moved to a town called murray Bridge to 505 00:31:36,872 --> 00:31:39,471 Speaker 2: the east of Adelaide, and then that's where some of 506 00:31:39,512 --> 00:31:42,592 Speaker 2: the murders occurred and some of the victims were living. 507 00:31:42,992 --> 00:31:47,191 Speaker 2: And again this is occurring justin Bunting's realm. If you 508 00:31:47,232 --> 00:31:49,472 Speaker 2: were someone who was down on your luck, if you're 509 00:31:49,472 --> 00:31:54,592 Speaker 2: somehow made friends with his steps on James Flasarkus, if 510 00:31:54,632 --> 00:31:57,432 Speaker 2: you somehow did something to offend him, you were on 511 00:31:57,472 --> 00:32:00,472 Speaker 2: his radar in that area, and that put you a risk. 512 00:32:01,832 --> 00:32:04,592 Speaker 3: What was Mark's role We've touched on Wagner. What was 513 00:32:04,632 --> 00:32:05,952 Speaker 3: Mark's role in these killings? 514 00:32:06,792 --> 00:32:10,991 Speaker 2: I think that'll always be a point of conjecture. I 515 00:32:10,992 --> 00:32:13,432 Speaker 2: think it's important to stress that he's never been convicted 516 00:32:13,472 --> 00:32:16,832 Speaker 2: of murder. He was originally charged with murders. He's never 517 00:32:16,832 --> 00:32:20,112 Speaker 2: been convicted of murder. What he has been convicted of 518 00:32:20,272 --> 00:32:24,671 Speaker 2: is assisting or covering up in seven cases of murder, 519 00:32:25,272 --> 00:32:27,992 Speaker 2: two of which he confessed to and five of which 520 00:32:28,032 --> 00:32:33,231 Speaker 2: he was found guilty of. And so Mark Hayden, although 521 00:32:33,272 --> 00:32:35,951 Speaker 2: he's never been convicted of murder, has blood on his hands, 522 00:32:36,592 --> 00:32:40,232 Speaker 2: As is the case with any crime that's repeated, if 523 00:32:40,272 --> 00:32:42,632 Speaker 2: someone speaks up and it's stopped, it won't happen again 524 00:32:42,671 --> 00:32:45,991 Speaker 2: and again. And so it's I think very clear to 525 00:32:45,992 --> 00:32:48,552 Speaker 2: say that if Mark Haden had done the right thing, 526 00:32:49,112 --> 00:32:52,352 Speaker 2: people would still be alive today who were murdered. And 527 00:32:52,472 --> 00:32:55,991 Speaker 2: I think that it's very difficult for the relatives of 528 00:32:56,032 --> 00:33:00,312 Speaker 2: some victims to accept that Mark Haden was only ever 529 00:33:00,431 --> 00:33:03,711 Speaker 2: convicted of covering up in seven cases of murder. 530 00:33:04,792 --> 00:33:07,872 Speaker 3: Let's get back to the police investigation. So, by February 531 00:33:07,911 --> 00:33:11,952 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine, the deaths of Clinton Tracized, Barry Lane, 532 00:33:12,032 --> 00:33:16,072 Speaker 3: Suzanne Allen, and Elizabeth Hayden were all officially declared major crimes. 533 00:33:16,112 --> 00:33:19,352 Speaker 3: They're all working away in the background. How did they 534 00:33:19,392 --> 00:33:21,991 Speaker 3: go from that to a few months later ending up 535 00:33:22,032 --> 00:33:22,671 Speaker 3: in Snowtown. 536 00:33:23,512 --> 00:33:26,671 Speaker 2: So essentially, as I described to you earlier, there's this 537 00:33:26,752 --> 00:33:32,072 Speaker 2: missing person's investigation, this review of cold case missing persons 538 00:33:32,152 --> 00:33:37,152 Speaker 2: files that starts to join the dots between these missing individuals, 539 00:33:37,152 --> 00:33:39,792 Speaker 2: and these names that keep coming up in relation to them, 540 00:33:39,832 --> 00:33:43,392 Speaker 2: John Bunting and Robert Wagner keep coming up. And at 541 00:33:43,431 --> 00:33:47,232 Speaker 2: the same time as this is happening, Elizabeth Hayden disappears. 542 00:33:47,832 --> 00:33:51,352 Speaker 2: Her brother is rightly suspicious of the way in which 543 00:33:51,392 --> 00:33:54,552 Speaker 2: she's vanished. His adamant she would never leave her children 544 00:33:54,632 --> 00:33:58,032 Speaker 2: behind and just leave like Mark Hayden was saying that 545 00:33:58,112 --> 00:34:02,511 Speaker 2: she had. And so as the police attention fixates on 546 00:34:02,632 --> 00:34:05,552 Speaker 2: Mark Hayden in relation to the disappearance of his wife, 547 00:34:06,112 --> 00:34:09,152 Speaker 2: it becomes clear to those investigators that John Bunting and 548 00:34:09,232 --> 00:34:11,792 Speaker 2: Robert Wagner are friends with Mark Hayden, and then the 549 00:34:11,832 --> 00:34:14,672 Speaker 2: match occurs with these other missing people, and so the 550 00:34:14,752 --> 00:34:18,352 Speaker 2: heat is then very much on this group of John Bunting, 551 00:34:18,431 --> 00:34:22,272 Speaker 2: Robert Wagner and Mark Hayden. While the police are investigating 552 00:34:22,272 --> 00:34:25,712 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Hayden's disappearance, they are given witness accounts of a 553 00:34:25,752 --> 00:34:29,991 Speaker 2: four wheel drive at the property where people are seen 554 00:34:30,152 --> 00:34:34,231 Speaker 2: placing garbage bags into the four wheel drive. And they're 555 00:34:34,272 --> 00:34:37,632 Speaker 2: already thinking they're investigating a murder, and they're obviously thinking 556 00:34:37,632 --> 00:34:40,832 Speaker 2: along the lines of human remains in those bags as 557 00:34:40,872 --> 00:34:45,991 Speaker 2: a distinct possibility, and so that four wheel drive is 558 00:34:46,712 --> 00:34:50,591 Speaker 2: put on a trailer and toad away at some point. Now, 559 00:34:50,632 --> 00:34:54,312 Speaker 2: through various means of surveillance, the police determine that their 560 00:34:54,392 --> 00:34:59,192 Speaker 2: three suspects are traveling to and from Snowtown, which is 561 00:34:59,232 --> 00:35:01,912 Speaker 2: in the mid north of South Australia, and they focus 562 00:35:01,991 --> 00:35:05,552 Speaker 2: on a particular house where they've been visiting with a friend. 563 00:35:06,392 --> 00:35:08,912 Speaker 2: And so some detectives are given the job of going 564 00:35:08,911 --> 00:35:14,471 Speaker 2: to Snowtown and visiting this house and making some inquiries 565 00:35:14,511 --> 00:35:17,511 Speaker 2: with the friend, particularly in relation to this four wheel 566 00:35:17,592 --> 00:35:20,911 Speaker 2: drive and it's when they speak to that friend, when 567 00:35:20,911 --> 00:35:23,712 Speaker 2: they interviewed that friend at the house, that he indicates 568 00:35:23,752 --> 00:35:26,751 Speaker 2: to them that the contents of the four wheel drive 569 00:35:27,551 --> 00:35:29,911 Speaker 2: was now being stored in a bank across the rail 570 00:35:29,991 --> 00:35:33,272 Speaker 2: line in town, an old bank building which was being 571 00:35:33,312 --> 00:35:38,031 Speaker 2: rented by Bunting and Wagner. And so they essentially go 572 00:35:38,112 --> 00:35:40,991 Speaker 2: to the bank and they open it up and they 573 00:35:41,031 --> 00:35:46,551 Speaker 2: find inside the bank vault these barrels, and being experienced 574 00:35:46,592 --> 00:35:49,951 Speaker 2: police having smelled the odor of death before they knew 575 00:35:49,951 --> 00:35:51,191 Speaker 2: exactly what they were dealing with. 576 00:35:52,392 --> 00:35:54,352 Speaker 3: I want to bring you into the story now because 577 00:35:54,392 --> 00:35:57,072 Speaker 3: you were a reporter. You were one of the first 578 00:35:57,072 --> 00:36:00,392 Speaker 3: on the scene when all of this started breaking. What 579 00:36:00,471 --> 00:36:02,352 Speaker 3: was that like for you? What do you remember of 580 00:36:02,392 --> 00:36:02,912 Speaker 3: that time? 581 00:36:03,832 --> 00:36:05,511 Speaker 2: Well, I remember I was a police reporter at the 582 00:36:05,511 --> 00:36:09,712 Speaker 2: Adelaine advertise and I was covering some ina minor story 583 00:36:10,152 --> 00:36:13,071 Speaker 2: early in the day and I received a phone call 584 00:36:13,112 --> 00:36:16,272 Speaker 2: from the newsroom to say that there had been bodies 585 00:36:16,312 --> 00:36:20,031 Speaker 2: found in barrels in a bank in Snowtown. And of 586 00:36:20,072 --> 00:36:22,392 Speaker 2: course I didn't believe that would be right. I didn't 587 00:36:22,431 --> 00:36:24,752 Speaker 2: think that's how the story would pan out. But I 588 00:36:24,832 --> 00:36:26,431 Speaker 2: decided it would be best if I got back to 589 00:36:26,471 --> 00:36:28,471 Speaker 2: the office in a hurry, and then made plans to 590 00:36:28,511 --> 00:36:31,551 Speaker 2: head to Snowtown. Actually got pulled over for speeding on 591 00:36:31,592 --> 00:36:34,712 Speaker 2: the way back from the Inane Story to the office, 592 00:36:34,792 --> 00:36:37,991 Speaker 2: and then myself and a photographer, another journalist and photographers 593 00:36:37,991 --> 00:36:41,752 Speaker 2: made our way to Snowtown. This story breaks the morning 594 00:36:41,792 --> 00:36:44,832 Speaker 2: after the barrels have been removed from the bank. So 595 00:36:44,872 --> 00:36:46,991 Speaker 2: the police have done a really very good job of 596 00:36:47,672 --> 00:36:52,152 Speaker 2: keeping that initial operation secret, and I remember speaking to 597 00:36:52,192 --> 00:36:54,711 Speaker 2: some of the Snowtown locals, including some people who had 598 00:36:54,712 --> 00:36:56,672 Speaker 2: sat on the balcony of the pub which is across 599 00:36:56,712 --> 00:36:59,472 Speaker 2: the road from the bank, and were sitting there watching 600 00:36:59,511 --> 00:37:01,911 Speaker 2: as these barrels were being brought out and taken away 601 00:37:01,951 --> 00:37:03,591 Speaker 2: by the police, and they thought it was a mega 602 00:37:03,632 --> 00:37:06,192 Speaker 2: drug bust. They had no idea what was going on, 603 00:37:06,352 --> 00:37:08,111 Speaker 2: and so by the time we got there, it was 604 00:37:08,192 --> 00:37:11,792 Speaker 2: quiet and there weren't many police, and the bank was 605 00:37:11,832 --> 00:37:14,752 Speaker 2: a crime scene, but a subdued one, and so it 606 00:37:14,792 --> 00:37:18,511 Speaker 2: was a little bit anticlimactic, if you like. But that 607 00:37:18,672 --> 00:37:21,551 Speaker 2: was the same morning that the arrests were occurring, and 608 00:37:21,632 --> 00:37:24,991 Speaker 2: it became very apparent, very quickly through that day and 609 00:37:25,031 --> 00:37:27,431 Speaker 2: in the days that followed, the scale of what had 610 00:37:27,431 --> 00:37:29,392 Speaker 2: happened and what had been discovered there and what was 611 00:37:29,431 --> 00:37:32,671 Speaker 2: being alleged. But the fascinating thing about this is that 612 00:37:32,712 --> 00:37:36,592 Speaker 2: at this point, this is a missing person's investigation, maybe 613 00:37:36,672 --> 00:37:40,951 Speaker 2: five maybe six. At the point in which the police 614 00:37:41,192 --> 00:37:45,232 Speaker 2: walk into that bank and discover those barrels, they ultimately 615 00:37:45,272 --> 00:37:47,471 Speaker 2: find that there's eight bodies in there. This is more 616 00:37:47,511 --> 00:37:50,711 Speaker 2: than they're expecting. This is the beginning of an investigation, 617 00:37:50,872 --> 00:37:53,752 Speaker 2: not the end. And there's so much work that happens 618 00:37:53,752 --> 00:37:57,431 Speaker 2: in the months that follow where they're trying to determine 619 00:37:57,511 --> 00:38:01,071 Speaker 2: who these people are, who these victims are, some of 620 00:38:01,072 --> 00:38:04,032 Speaker 2: whom were never reported missing because they were so disenfranchised 621 00:38:04,072 --> 00:38:04,911 Speaker 2: from their families. 622 00:38:06,352 --> 00:38:08,152 Speaker 3: So you mentioned the arrests were going down at a 623 00:38:08,152 --> 00:38:11,992 Speaker 3: similar time that was the arrest of Bunting, Wagner, and Hayden. 624 00:38:13,112 --> 00:38:16,032 Speaker 3: How did they react because obviously they've been getting away 625 00:38:16,072 --> 00:38:17,272 Speaker 3: with this for years. 626 00:38:17,872 --> 00:38:22,392 Speaker 2: Yes, Look, I think because these are not very smart people. 627 00:38:23,112 --> 00:38:27,312 Speaker 2: John Bunting is cunning rat cunning. Robert Wagner and Mark 628 00:38:27,312 --> 00:38:30,431 Speaker 2: Hayden are not very smart people. They are followers and 629 00:38:30,471 --> 00:38:34,471 Speaker 2: they really genuinely have no idea how much heat is 630 00:38:34,471 --> 00:38:37,671 Speaker 2: on them at this point. And if John Bunting did 631 00:38:37,672 --> 00:38:40,712 Speaker 2: have an inkling he didn't care because his lust for 632 00:38:40,832 --> 00:38:45,232 Speaker 2: killing was overriding all of that, and so there was 633 00:38:45,272 --> 00:38:48,632 Speaker 2: certainly an element of surprise when their homes were raided 634 00:38:48,672 --> 00:38:51,272 Speaker 2: by police at dawn and they were told that they 635 00:38:51,312 --> 00:38:55,712 Speaker 2: were being placed under arrest for murder. Wagner and Hayden 636 00:38:55,792 --> 00:38:59,152 Speaker 2: had very little to say. Bunting was being a smart 637 00:38:59,152 --> 00:39:03,792 Speaker 2: ass right from the beginning and appeared nonchalant about the 638 00:39:03,832 --> 00:39:07,991 Speaker 2: whole thing. So I think they they were genuinely surprised 639 00:39:08,031 --> 00:39:11,191 Speaker 2: to be caught at that time, but really because two 640 00:39:11,232 --> 00:39:13,551 Speaker 2: of them were too stupid to know that that was 641 00:39:13,592 --> 00:39:15,951 Speaker 2: about to happen, and because one was so deluded that 642 00:39:15,991 --> 00:39:17,312 Speaker 2: he believed he would never be caught. 643 00:39:18,551 --> 00:39:21,832 Speaker 3: Is it Vlassarkus that ends up being there undoing because 644 00:39:21,872 --> 00:39:23,672 Speaker 3: he ends up confessing to a lot. 645 00:39:24,792 --> 00:39:29,272 Speaker 2: Yeah, he does. So. Vlasarkus is a suspect very early on, 646 00:39:30,072 --> 00:39:35,551 Speaker 2: and there's some intense interviews occurring involving major crime detectives 647 00:39:35,551 --> 00:39:37,951 Speaker 2: and Lasarkus, and he's in and out of their custody. 648 00:39:38,832 --> 00:39:41,792 Speaker 2: He is arrested for murder at some point subsequent to 649 00:39:41,832 --> 00:39:46,951 Speaker 2: that and is being investigated, and eventually it gets to 650 00:39:46,991 --> 00:39:50,031 Speaker 2: the point where he's ready to confess to everything that 651 00:39:50,152 --> 00:39:54,272 Speaker 2: he knows, and this is a grueling, grueling interview with 652 00:39:54,352 --> 00:39:58,792 Speaker 2: police where he details everything that he knows about the 653 00:39:58,872 --> 00:40:02,672 Speaker 2: murders that predated his involvement or even his contact with 654 00:40:02,752 --> 00:40:05,911 Speaker 2: Bunting by way of the bragging or the things that 655 00:40:05,951 --> 00:40:09,672 Speaker 2: he'd come to learn, and he details everything that he 656 00:40:09,792 --> 00:40:13,192 Speaker 2: knows about the murders he was involved in, including the 657 00:40:13,192 --> 00:40:15,752 Speaker 2: things that he witnessed himself and the things that he 658 00:40:15,832 --> 00:40:19,552 Speaker 2: did himself. And so what that does is it provides 659 00:40:20,072 --> 00:40:25,631 Speaker 2: the police with a roadmap to this complex web to 660 00:40:25,712 --> 00:40:29,152 Speaker 2: these crimes at a point where they're still really trying 661 00:40:29,152 --> 00:40:32,951 Speaker 2: to piece together a lot of this information themselves. They 662 00:40:32,991 --> 00:40:37,832 Speaker 2: would have eventually identified these victims, and they very probably 663 00:40:37,872 --> 00:40:41,631 Speaker 2: would have eventually had enough evidence to convict Bunting and 664 00:40:41,672 --> 00:40:46,431 Speaker 2: Wagner of these murders and vleisarcus. But what he did, 665 00:40:47,072 --> 00:40:49,511 Speaker 2: by way of his confession and his evidence as a 666 00:40:49,511 --> 00:40:54,431 Speaker 2: witness was expedite that process significantly and probably lead to 667 00:40:54,592 --> 00:40:57,471 Speaker 2: some convictions where they otherwise may not have been able 668 00:40:57,511 --> 00:40:57,912 Speaker 2: to occur. 669 00:40:59,632 --> 00:41:01,552 Speaker 3: And he's the one as well that kind of points 670 00:41:01,592 --> 00:41:04,991 Speaker 3: them because we've mentioned eight bodies were found in the barrels, 671 00:41:05,072 --> 00:41:08,872 Speaker 3: but there's a level twelve murders, and he points them 672 00:41:08,911 --> 00:41:10,192 Speaker 3: to those other bodies as well. 673 00:41:10,471 --> 00:41:13,471 Speaker 2: That's right. And so the excavation begins in the backyard 674 00:41:13,511 --> 00:41:18,312 Speaker 2: at Salisbury North and two bodies are found there again 675 00:41:18,392 --> 00:41:23,431 Speaker 2: dismembered in plastic bags, and it enables the police to 676 00:41:23,431 --> 00:41:26,551 Speaker 2: piece together information about the other murders as well. The 677 00:41:26,632 --> 00:41:30,232 Speaker 2: murder of Clinton Precise, which had been a missing person's 678 00:41:30,272 --> 00:41:34,071 Speaker 2: case and fraught with error from the beginning, including an 679 00:41:34,072 --> 00:41:37,712 Speaker 2: inability by a forensic expert to match the skeletal remains 680 00:41:37,752 --> 00:41:39,752 Speaker 2: with an image of Clinton res Ice. In fact, it 681 00:41:39,792 --> 00:41:42,592 Speaker 2: was ruled out rather than ruled in, which really slowed 682 00:41:42,632 --> 00:41:47,071 Speaker 2: down that process. And even the murder of Thomas Trevellian, 683 00:41:47,471 --> 00:41:51,431 Speaker 2: which had been staged to look like a suicide and 684 00:41:51,551 --> 00:41:55,031 Speaker 2: had been accepted by authorities as a suicide for such 685 00:41:55,031 --> 00:41:57,551 Speaker 2: a long period of time. And so it was this 686 00:41:57,672 --> 00:42:00,792 Speaker 2: confession that really did point police in the direction of 687 00:42:00,832 --> 00:42:03,551 Speaker 2: those other murders, as you say, and not just the 688 00:42:03,672 --> 00:42:06,792 Speaker 2: murders of those people whose bodies were found in the barrels. 689 00:42:06,031 --> 00:42:20,312 Speaker 3: And I want to ask you this question because it's 690 00:42:20,352 --> 00:42:27,672 Speaker 3: an important question to ask to understand Hayden's conviction. Why 691 00:42:28,152 --> 00:42:30,832 Speaker 3: or when were the bodies moved to Snowtown because they 692 00:42:30,832 --> 00:42:33,312 Speaker 3: weren't always there, No, they. 693 00:42:33,192 --> 00:42:36,432 Speaker 2: Weren't always there. The belief is that they were moved 694 00:42:36,431 --> 00:42:43,191 Speaker 2: to Snowtown from Hayden's house at Smithfield when they were 695 00:42:43,232 --> 00:42:48,232 Speaker 2: coming under some heat subsequent to the murder of Elizabeth Hayden. 696 00:42:48,991 --> 00:42:54,071 Speaker 2: So they're explaining away Elizabeth Hayden's disappearance. Mark Hayden is 697 00:42:54,112 --> 00:42:56,952 Speaker 2: telling her brother or that she's left, and her brother 698 00:42:57,031 --> 00:43:00,631 Speaker 2: is not accepting that explanation, and they want to keep 699 00:43:00,752 --> 00:43:04,071 Speaker 2: killing Bunting and Wagner, and they decide they need to 700 00:43:04,112 --> 00:43:08,671 Speaker 2: move these bodies. Now. One thing that there's never been 701 00:43:08,672 --> 00:43:11,151 Speaker 2: a lot of discussion about is why do they still 702 00:43:11,152 --> 00:43:15,511 Speaker 2: even have these bodies in barrels? And it's because it 703 00:43:15,551 --> 00:43:17,832 Speaker 2: would appear John Bunting wanted to keep them. They were 704 00:43:17,872 --> 00:43:20,752 Speaker 2: trophies of sorts. And you know, one thing that I 705 00:43:20,792 --> 00:43:24,032 Speaker 2: think lots of studies the world over have established about 706 00:43:24,072 --> 00:43:27,232 Speaker 2: serial killers is that they like trophies reminders of what 707 00:43:27,232 --> 00:43:30,431 Speaker 2: they've done. Either that or they were just incredibly stupid 708 00:43:30,471 --> 00:43:33,511 Speaker 2: in their attempts to cover up their crimes. And so 709 00:43:33,592 --> 00:43:36,312 Speaker 2: they had this problem these barrels that they were storing 710 00:43:36,352 --> 00:43:38,392 Speaker 2: there could no longer be kept there because of the 711 00:43:38,431 --> 00:43:42,231 Speaker 2: intensity on an address where Elizabeth Hayden had vanished from, 712 00:43:42,911 --> 00:43:46,951 Speaker 2: and so moving them to their mate's place at Snowtown, 713 00:43:46,991 --> 00:43:49,231 Speaker 2: and there was another property nearby where they are kept 714 00:43:49,272 --> 00:43:52,672 Speaker 2: for a short period of time, and then finding another solution, 715 00:43:52,792 --> 00:43:56,512 Speaker 2: which became that bank in Snowtown was their plan. 716 00:43:57,991 --> 00:44:01,752 Speaker 3: You would think that you'd lie low after that, that 717 00:44:01,911 --> 00:44:04,672 Speaker 3: you would kind of pause, knowing that people are looking 718 00:44:04,672 --> 00:44:07,991 Speaker 3: at you, but their lastekdom is actually killed in Snowtown. 719 00:44:08,072 --> 00:44:08,832 Speaker 3: Tell us about that. 720 00:44:09,272 --> 00:44:11,511 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, And I mean the rate at which 721 00:44:11,592 --> 00:44:14,792 Speaker 2: John Bunting was killing. If you look at nineteen ninety eight, 722 00:44:15,431 --> 00:44:19,431 Speaker 2: where there's I think five victims, but then you move 723 00:44:19,511 --> 00:44:23,352 Speaker 2: into nineteen ninety nine where there's one before their court. 724 00:44:24,232 --> 00:44:28,872 Speaker 2: Certainly the pressure that they're under, the overt investigations that 725 00:44:28,911 --> 00:44:33,431 Speaker 2: are now occurring slow the rate of killing, which John 726 00:44:33,471 --> 00:44:36,632 Speaker 2: Bunting found frustrating because he had developed quite the appetite 727 00:44:36,632 --> 00:44:40,991 Speaker 2: for it. And so they had decided because like I 728 00:44:41,031 --> 00:44:45,151 Speaker 2: said earlier, Robert Wagner's not a smart man, and John 729 00:44:45,192 --> 00:44:48,752 Speaker 2: Bunting had a deluded belief that he was the smartest 730 00:44:48,752 --> 00:44:52,471 Speaker 2: person in the room. They arrived at this position where 731 00:44:52,511 --> 00:44:55,671 Speaker 2: they felt they were safe to do this, where they 732 00:44:55,712 --> 00:44:58,872 Speaker 2: felt that they could get away with murder again. And 733 00:44:58,911 --> 00:45:00,832 Speaker 2: why wouldn't they because they had gotten away with so 734 00:45:00,911 --> 00:45:06,312 Speaker 2: many murders before. And so yes, the final victim, David Johnson, 735 00:45:06,632 --> 00:45:12,272 Speaker 2: who was James Flosarkas's step brother, is selected as the 736 00:45:12,352 --> 00:45:15,672 Speaker 2: target and a plan is hatched to lure him to 737 00:45:15,872 --> 00:45:19,352 Speaker 2: Snowtown to the bank under the guise of buying a computer, 738 00:45:20,112 --> 00:45:23,551 Speaker 2: and Robert Wagner and John Bunting they're waiting there. 739 00:45:25,112 --> 00:45:29,991 Speaker 3: There's obviously so much evidence in this case to lead 740 00:45:30,031 --> 00:45:33,072 Speaker 3: to a conviction with these men, I want to jump 741 00:45:33,112 --> 00:45:37,312 Speaker 3: to the court proceedings because the trial of Bunting and Wagner, 742 00:45:37,352 --> 00:45:40,872 Speaker 3: it was a joint trial two thousand and two. I'm 743 00:45:40,911 --> 00:45:42,872 Speaker 3: revealing my age here. I was a bit too young 744 00:45:42,911 --> 00:45:45,152 Speaker 3: to pay attention, but that I can imagine would have 745 00:45:45,192 --> 00:45:50,192 Speaker 3: been a huge story. A double trial involving two serial killers, 746 00:45:50,272 --> 00:45:51,312 Speaker 3: multiple victims. 747 00:45:52,632 --> 00:45:55,952 Speaker 2: Oh look, it's one of, if not the biggest criminal 748 00:45:55,991 --> 00:45:59,672 Speaker 2: trial in South astral history. The level of public interest was, 749 00:45:59,712 --> 00:46:03,631 Speaker 2: as you would expect, enormous. The special facilities that had 750 00:46:03,632 --> 00:46:05,872 Speaker 2: to be created in the court complex and the scale 751 00:46:05,911 --> 00:46:10,352 Speaker 2: of it and complexity of it was enormous. And what 752 00:46:10,392 --> 00:46:13,511 Speaker 2: you really had were two serial killers side by side 753 00:46:13,551 --> 00:46:16,991 Speaker 2: on trial for murders they had committed together that they 754 00:46:17,031 --> 00:46:20,631 Speaker 2: really weren't remorseful for in any way that they were 755 00:46:20,672 --> 00:46:23,631 Speaker 2: proud of, and it was almost as though they were 756 00:46:23,712 --> 00:46:28,272 Speaker 2: enjoying their moment relishing it all over again. And so 757 00:46:28,392 --> 00:46:31,951 Speaker 2: there was this fight, There was this contest, this legal contest, 758 00:46:32,312 --> 00:46:36,552 Speaker 2: but ultimately the evidence was overwhelming and Bunting was convicted 759 00:46:36,592 --> 00:46:38,431 Speaker 2: of eleven murders and Wagner of ten. 760 00:46:40,192 --> 00:46:44,232 Speaker 3: Hayden's trial went ahead a few years later, and it 761 00:46:44,272 --> 00:46:47,312 Speaker 3: took the jury quite a while to make that decision. 762 00:46:48,431 --> 00:46:51,352 Speaker 3: Can you take us more into that, the final verdict, 763 00:46:51,551 --> 00:46:53,872 Speaker 3: the sentence, how that all played out. 764 00:46:54,592 --> 00:46:58,672 Speaker 2: I think the complexity of this case and the need 765 00:46:58,712 --> 00:47:05,111 Speaker 2: to prove well, really twelve murders and how actively each 766 00:47:05,192 --> 00:47:09,792 Speaker 2: person participated or didn't participate in each act of murder, 767 00:47:11,031 --> 00:47:14,312 Speaker 2: that was an incredibly difficult exercise for the police. This 768 00:47:14,471 --> 00:47:17,752 Speaker 2: is in an era where forensic science was advanced but 769 00:47:17,832 --> 00:47:21,071 Speaker 2: not as advanced as it is now, and involved a 770 00:47:21,112 --> 00:47:24,031 Speaker 2: lot of people who were in some way removed from 771 00:47:24,031 --> 00:47:27,791 Speaker 2: their families, and so the alarm wasn't raised as early 772 00:47:27,832 --> 00:47:31,312 Speaker 2: as it could be, And so all through this process, 773 00:47:31,352 --> 00:47:34,872 Speaker 2: as the police interviewed those who knew the suspects and 774 00:47:34,911 --> 00:47:37,872 Speaker 2: those who knew the victims, there was this common theme 775 00:47:37,911 --> 00:47:40,551 Speaker 2: that would come out about Mark Hayden, that he was 776 00:47:40,592 --> 00:47:43,951 Speaker 2: a quiet man, that he wasn't an assertive man, that 777 00:47:44,031 --> 00:47:47,712 Speaker 2: he always was just kind of hanging around, And so 778 00:47:47,872 --> 00:47:52,111 Speaker 2: in relation to what role he played, there was never 779 00:47:52,192 --> 00:47:55,312 Speaker 2: any strong evidence that he had taken part in any 780 00:47:55,352 --> 00:47:59,232 Speaker 2: of these murders. He knew that Elizabeth Hayden had been murdered, 781 00:47:59,672 --> 00:48:01,631 Speaker 2: he lied to her family, and he lied to the 782 00:48:01,672 --> 00:48:05,511 Speaker 2: police about it, and he covered up for these killers. 783 00:48:06,112 --> 00:48:10,312 Speaker 2: In six other cases, he admitted because the evidence was 784 00:48:10,352 --> 00:48:14,192 Speaker 2: overwhelming his role in two of those, and ultimately the 785 00:48:14,232 --> 00:48:18,152 Speaker 2: police were able to approve by virtue of witness accounts 786 00:48:18,192 --> 00:48:22,832 Speaker 2: and forensic evidence and circumstantial evidence that he had knowledge 787 00:48:22,872 --> 00:48:28,312 Speaker 2: of or some involvement of that five others. And so really, 788 00:48:28,911 --> 00:48:31,352 Speaker 2: for someone who at the beginning was a suspect in 789 00:48:31,471 --> 00:48:35,991 Speaker 2: multiple murders, but where the evidence was not strong to 790 00:48:36,112 --> 00:48:39,112 Speaker 2: have him convicted of assisting in so many cases, was 791 00:48:39,152 --> 00:48:42,752 Speaker 2: still a significant result in terms of the investigation, and 792 00:48:42,832 --> 00:48:47,031 Speaker 2: so he is sentenced to spend up until the year 793 00:48:47,072 --> 00:48:50,191 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four in prison, which brings us to where 794 00:48:50,192 --> 00:48:51,832 Speaker 2: we are today in relation to Marcaden. 795 00:48:53,031 --> 00:48:55,231 Speaker 3: Yeah, because with Wagner and Bunting were able to file 796 00:48:55,232 --> 00:48:57,592 Speaker 3: them away. They're not getting parole. They're in jail. 797 00:48:57,991 --> 00:49:01,031 Speaker 2: No, they're not getting parole. They're in jail. And so 798 00:49:01,192 --> 00:49:03,551 Speaker 2: to be clear, in South Australia and in relation to 799 00:49:03,632 --> 00:49:06,872 Speaker 2: their sentence, they were sentenced to life in prison, which 800 00:49:06,951 --> 00:49:10,672 Speaker 2: is the mandatory sentence for murder, and the judge declined 801 00:49:10,752 --> 00:49:14,712 Speaker 2: to set a parole period. So there is technically no 802 00:49:14,832 --> 00:49:17,991 Speaker 2: such thing here as never to be released. It's just 803 00:49:18,031 --> 00:49:21,112 Speaker 2: that the judge has decided not to set a parole period. 804 00:49:22,112 --> 00:49:25,352 Speaker 2: That decision is still reviewed or can be reviewed by 805 00:49:25,352 --> 00:49:30,111 Speaker 2: the Parole Board of South Australia. And only recently while 806 00:49:30,152 --> 00:49:32,991 Speaker 2: speaking about the Hayden case where there are marks that 807 00:49:33,072 --> 00:49:36,392 Speaker 2: came to the fore about John Bunting in particular, and 808 00:49:36,471 --> 00:49:38,511 Speaker 2: those remarks were about the fact that he is not 809 00:49:38,592 --> 00:49:41,232 Speaker 2: remorseful and that he is proud of what he's done. 810 00:49:41,551 --> 00:49:43,432 Speaker 2: And I think it's fair to say that John Bunting 811 00:49:43,431 --> 00:49:45,112 Speaker 2: and Robert Wagner will never be released. 812 00:49:46,232 --> 00:49:49,231 Speaker 3: But twenty twenty four is here, and Hayden's parole date 813 00:49:49,352 --> 00:49:52,592 Speaker 3: is upon us. Tell us about what's happening now, because 814 00:49:53,431 --> 00:49:54,472 Speaker 3: he's back in the news. 815 00:49:55,232 --> 00:49:58,191 Speaker 2: He is, and that's because in a few weeks time, 816 00:49:58,312 --> 00:50:02,471 Speaker 2: in May of twenty twenty four, his maximum term expires. 817 00:50:03,072 --> 00:50:06,312 Speaker 2: So forget about his non parole period. His maximum term exis. 818 00:50:07,471 --> 00:50:11,272 Speaker 2: And as I think most people understand, when you finished 819 00:50:11,272 --> 00:50:14,551 Speaker 2: your maximum term, you are released and there can be 820 00:50:14,592 --> 00:50:17,672 Speaker 2: no restriction placed on you and no monitoring placed on you. 821 00:50:18,752 --> 00:50:20,592 Speaker 2: What could have happened is he could have been given 822 00:50:20,632 --> 00:50:23,792 Speaker 2: parole some time ago and that didn't occur. And so 823 00:50:23,911 --> 00:50:27,352 Speaker 2: only recently has the Parole Board decided that it's a 824 00:50:27,352 --> 00:50:30,872 Speaker 2: good idea to give Mark Caden parole. But really in 825 00:50:30,911 --> 00:50:33,872 Speaker 2: the context of having some facility with which to monitor 826 00:50:33,951 --> 00:50:38,431 Speaker 2: him by way of parole conditions before that sentence expires. 827 00:50:39,431 --> 00:50:43,752 Speaker 2: The community expectation is different. The community this feels like yesterday. 828 00:50:44,312 --> 00:50:47,312 Speaker 2: It's our Australians and I think it's fair to say 829 00:50:47,392 --> 00:50:50,151 Speaker 2: very uncomfortable with the prospect of him being released at 830 00:50:50,192 --> 00:50:54,192 Speaker 2: all in any way, but in particular with absolute freedom. 831 00:50:54,632 --> 00:50:57,191 Speaker 2: And so the state government has launched a legal bid 832 00:50:57,592 --> 00:51:00,872 Speaker 2: to have him declared a serious offender and therefore be 833 00:51:00,911 --> 00:51:04,312 Speaker 2: able under the law to be monitored beyond his maximum 834 00:51:04,312 --> 00:51:07,911 Speaker 2: prison term. So he's getting out. He's already started to 835 00:51:07,911 --> 00:51:10,551 Speaker 2: be given day release now as we speak, and he's 836 00:51:10,592 --> 00:51:13,551 Speaker 2: getting out. It's just a question now of how he'll 837 00:51:13,592 --> 00:51:15,551 Speaker 2: be monitored and where he can and can't go, and 838 00:51:15,592 --> 00:51:18,991 Speaker 2: what he can and can't do post May twenty twenty four, 839 00:51:19,752 --> 00:51:22,632 Speaker 2: and only yesterday it came to light that the parole 840 00:51:22,712 --> 00:51:25,272 Speaker 2: process had reached to the point where he is already 841 00:51:25,872 --> 00:51:28,552 Speaker 2: able to go out during the day that's happening now 842 00:51:28,911 --> 00:51:31,792 Speaker 2: under supervision, and only has to go back to a 843 00:51:31,991 --> 00:51:37,152 Speaker 2: corrections pre release center at night. And don't forget James Lasarkus, 844 00:51:37,192 --> 00:51:40,232 Speaker 2: who was convicted of several murders, was given a non 845 00:51:40,272 --> 00:51:42,951 Speaker 2: parole period of twenty six years, and so the community 846 00:51:42,951 --> 00:51:44,591 Speaker 2: will have that to grapple with in the not too 847 00:51:44,632 --> 00:51:45,392 Speaker 2: distant future. 848 00:51:46,832 --> 00:51:51,031 Speaker 3: You mentioned that through that parole process we've found out 849 00:51:51,072 --> 00:51:55,512 Speaker 3: that there's no remorse when it comes to Bunting or Wagner. 850 00:51:55,632 --> 00:51:58,112 Speaker 3: What about the other two, Because obviously we've got Hayden 851 00:51:58,392 --> 00:52:00,551 Speaker 3: getting out this year, we're potentially going to be having 852 00:52:00,551 --> 00:52:04,031 Speaker 3: this same conversation in twenty twenty five with Lasarkus. What 853 00:52:04,112 --> 00:52:06,632 Speaker 3: can we expect from them? Is there any signs of rehabilitation. 854 00:52:07,592 --> 00:52:09,792 Speaker 2: I think what we have to do as a community 855 00:52:09,872 --> 00:52:12,591 Speaker 2: is accept what we're being told by the authorities who 856 00:52:12,592 --> 00:52:16,192 Speaker 2: are assessing these people. And the Parole Board is clear 857 00:52:16,232 --> 00:52:21,192 Speaker 2: in its view that Mark Hayden has shown considerable remorse 858 00:52:21,872 --> 00:52:27,112 Speaker 2: and understanding of what he did, and has done nothing 859 00:52:27,152 --> 00:52:31,392 Speaker 2: wrong in all his time in prison, and has done 860 00:52:31,431 --> 00:52:35,272 Speaker 2: everything right in terms of rehabilitation and his time in prison. 861 00:52:35,832 --> 00:52:38,471 Speaker 2: Their only concern about him is whether he can make 862 00:52:38,511 --> 00:52:41,911 Speaker 2: a meaningful transition back into society, because he literally doesn't 863 00:52:41,951 --> 00:52:44,591 Speaker 2: may how to function in it, and frankly, he didn't 864 00:52:44,632 --> 00:52:46,872 Speaker 2: function in it particularly well before he got caught up 865 00:52:46,872 --> 00:52:49,591 Speaker 2: in all of this. This is twenty five years later 866 00:52:49,632 --> 00:52:52,712 Speaker 2: and a lot's changed, and so the answer in relation 867 00:52:52,752 --> 00:52:55,631 Speaker 2: to Marc Haden is yes, he's remorseful, and yes he 868 00:52:55,752 --> 00:53:00,511 Speaker 2: has served his time, and yes he's rehabilitated. It's just 869 00:53:01,031 --> 00:53:03,792 Speaker 2: a question now of whether the community and the victims 870 00:53:03,792 --> 00:53:05,752 Speaker 2: can accept the fact that that time has come. 871 00:53:07,152 --> 00:53:09,792 Speaker 3: I think uncomfortable is a good word, because this is 872 00:53:09,832 --> 00:53:12,512 Speaker 3: the way justice goes. We have to let these people, 873 00:53:12,551 --> 00:53:16,711 Speaker 3: once they've served their time, have the chance to show 874 00:53:16,752 --> 00:53:20,111 Speaker 3: that they've changed have a new life. But I can 875 00:53:20,152 --> 00:53:22,232 Speaker 3: see why South Australia would be on edge. 876 00:53:22,991 --> 00:53:25,551 Speaker 2: Yes, and more so I think that will be the 877 00:53:25,592 --> 00:53:30,512 Speaker 2: case in relation to James Vasakas, because as we've spoken about, 878 00:53:30,712 --> 00:53:35,071 Speaker 2: it's a terrible story. What he endured was terrible. He 879 00:53:35,152 --> 00:53:39,591 Speaker 2: really was made a killer by his environment. I think 880 00:53:39,592 --> 00:53:42,591 Speaker 2: it's fair to say, that's my assessment of it. And 881 00:53:42,752 --> 00:53:46,431 Speaker 2: he was full of remorse from the moment he confessed, 882 00:53:47,072 --> 00:53:50,112 Speaker 2: all through his own trial and during the gut wrenching 883 00:53:50,712 --> 00:53:53,631 Speaker 2: sentencing submissions that were made by his defense lawyer in 884 00:53:53,672 --> 00:53:56,352 Speaker 2: relation to what he had done, what he had seen, 885 00:53:56,431 --> 00:53:59,711 Speaker 2: and what he regretted. And so he by the time 886 00:53:59,752 --> 00:54:02,991 Speaker 2: he is released, if he's ever released, will have endured 887 00:54:03,072 --> 00:54:08,552 Speaker 2: twenty six years of remorse. The question is can someone 888 00:54:08,632 --> 00:54:12,951 Speaker 2: who has been found guilty of four murders, four serial killings, 889 00:54:13,792 --> 00:54:16,752 Speaker 2: should they ever be released, should they ever be given parole? 890 00:54:17,431 --> 00:54:21,032 Speaker 2: And I'm not sure how soon we'll see James Lesarkas free. 891 00:54:21,072 --> 00:54:24,312 Speaker 2: I know that twenty six years is his non parole period, 892 00:54:24,752 --> 00:54:26,312 Speaker 2: but I think it's going to be a lot longer 893 00:54:26,312 --> 00:54:28,752 Speaker 2: than that before the community has to grapple with that issue. 894 00:54:33,792 --> 00:54:36,911 Speaker 3: Thanks to Jeremy for assisting us to tell this story. 895 00:54:36,991 --> 00:54:40,192 Speaker 3: You can find his book Snowtown The Bodies in Barrel's 896 00:54:40,272 --> 00:54:44,152 Speaker 3: Murders linked in our show notes. True Crime Conversations is 897 00:54:44,192 --> 00:54:47,832 Speaker 3: a Mumamea podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma Bath, 898 00:54:48,192 --> 00:54:52,431 Speaker 3: with audio design by Scott Stronik. Our executive producer is 899 00:54:52,511 --> 00:54:56,312 Speaker 3: Giam Moylan. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you 900 00:54:56,312 --> 00:54:58,631 Speaker 3: have any feedback or thoughts you'd like to share, you 901 00:54:58,632 --> 00:55:01,992 Speaker 3: can email us at true Crime at mammamea dot com 902 00:55:02,031 --> 00:55:04,352 Speaker 3: dot au, or you can head to the survey LinkedIn 903 00:55:04,352 --> 00:55:06,272 Speaker 3: our show notes to go in the running to win 904 00:55:06,471 --> 00:55:09,951 Speaker 3: one of five one hundred dollars gift vouchers. Thanks so 905 00:55:10,031 --> 00:55:12,791 Speaker 3: much for listening. I'll be back next week with another 906 00:55:12,832 --> 00:55:13,951 Speaker 3: True Crime Conversation