Speaker 1: Hello and welcome, Welcome, Welcome to mom and Mia out loud.
Speaker 1: It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the
Speaker 1: tenth of August. I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm m Vernon, I'm
Speaker 1: Amelia Lester and here's what's on our agenda for today.
Speaker 1: Robots have killed homework and I'm not happy about it.
Speaker 2: Oh no, Plus, have you ever been betrayed by a
Speaker 2: friend and what did you do about it?
Speaker 3: And is the cozy life making you a bit depressed?
Speaker 2: But first, M Vernon, in case you missed it, Zendeia
Speaker 2: and Tom Holland have gone and married again, so we
Speaker 2: knew they were married earlier this years, and Deya has
Speaker 2: been wearing a wedding band on her ring finger. Tom
Speaker 2: also referred to her as his wife during the Odyssey
Speaker 2: press talk, and Law wrote the stylist said they that
Speaker 2: you guys have missed it. It's already happened. The wedding's
Speaker 2: already happened, That's what Laurache said. But now it's been
Speaker 2: reported that a few weekends ago they actually had a
Speaker 2: private wedding celebrat at Beaverbrook Hotel, which is a which
Speaker 2: is a luxury country house hotel in Surrey, UK.
Speaker 1: So they've had two secret weddings.
Speaker 2: They've had two weddings. What I think has happened is
Speaker 2: that they listened to our conversation where we said the
Speaker 2: millennial wedding is over, and they were like, not yet,
Speaker 2: we have some do.
Speaker 3: There were some lavender sprigs in Mason Jarles at this
Speaker 3: wedding celebration and other millennial wedding tropes.
Speaker 1: No, because they're the King and Queen of gen Z,
Speaker 1: aren't they those people? They said it.
Speaker 2: It's been reported it was a private ceremony, still with
Speaker 2: close family and friends.
Speaker 1: So I so now there are two wedding dresses. I
Speaker 1: haven't seen. It just seems selfish. I need to talk
Speaker 1: about them though. Okay, So between them, between Spider Man
Speaker 1: whatever it's called, Spider Man singy thingy, Brand New Day,
Speaker 1: Brand New Day, and the Odyssey. Between them, they are
Speaker 1: bringing in about three and a half billion dollars for
Speaker 1: the box office this summer.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what couple do you relate them to
Speaker 2: from your generation?
Speaker 1: I don't think that even is one really because Madonna
Speaker 1: and Champagne. But Madonna is never box office. I mean,
Speaker 1: she was obviously like musical box office I guess so,
Speaker 1: but no, because they're more sensible. In fact, they're very
Speaker 1: gen z in that they seem like they have this
Speaker 1: very healthy, respectful, friend based relationship and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: But what is interesting is people are always saying movies
Speaker 1: are dead, movies are dead, but they're clearly not dead.
Speaker 1: If Sendaea's in them, if Zendea's in them, they are alive.
Speaker 1: Those two. They talk about how movie stars are the
Speaker 1: people who can open a movie, and they have opened
Speaker 1: the two biggest movies of the year by a really
Speaker 1: long way.
Speaker 3: But what is also so GenZ about them is that
Speaker 3: I saw photos of them grabbing coffee in London last week.
Speaker 3: These are people bringing in, as you said, three and
Speaker 3: a half billion dollars in the box office, and they
Speaker 3: are living, by all accounts, pretty normal lives.
Speaker 2: I think what works for them is that they've always
Speaker 2: been or had this essence of being unbothered, like unbothered
Speaker 2: about everything right from the get go. I feel like
Speaker 2: when Zendeia was on Disney Channel in particular, she was
Speaker 2: doing so many movies, so many press tours, trying to
Speaker 2: push her celebrity esque and the minute she broke out
Speaker 2: from Disney Channel and went into Hollywood. Like, during the
Speaker 2: phase of her being in euphoria, she started to become
Speaker 2: more and more quiet, and I think that's worked really
Speaker 2: really well for.
Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. So basically, the more famous she's become,
Speaker 3: the more quiet her persona is.
Speaker 2: And I think she's bringing Tom Holland with her on
Speaker 2: that journey.
Speaker 1: You know what, though, you know how we talked on
Speaker 1: the show a few weeks ago about how big movie
Speaker 1: stars can be a hindrance to film and TV because
Speaker 1: you're just watching Zendaya. I went to see The Odyssey
Speaker 1: on Saturday at EM's instructions. Obviously very much for listening.
Speaker 1: I sent your five years later at the text say
Speaker 1: said something like, you were right, it's really good.
Speaker 3: And then you crist And is onto something apparently so.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, it's interesting sitting next to my
Speaker 1: daughter who's sixteen, and all the way through she like,
Speaker 1: no one ever calls Tom Holland by his actual name,
Speaker 1: He's just Tom Holland, and she's just Sendeia and then
Speaker 1: every movie star who came on, and there are famously
Speaker 1: many many movie stars in that movie. Matilda would say
Speaker 1: to me, is that person famous? And I'd be like Yes,
Speaker 1: that's Shelley's there On. Yes that's Matt Damon. Yes that's
Speaker 1: San Hathaway. Yes that's John Lagisimo, that's Robert Pattinson. And
Speaker 1: I was just like that, It's true. The rail has
Speaker 1: dropped even on a movie that big, that sensational, that amazing.
Speaker 1: It's just Tom Holland's Tom Holland. Yeah for just bad.
Speaker 1: I think it's fine.
Speaker 2: I mean Tom Holland is always not worse than being
Speaker 2: Tom Holland is that he's always a kid, like he's
Speaker 2: never played an adult, grown up role. He's been in
Speaker 2: Spider Man for years. He's one actor who's had the
Speaker 2: most Spider Man movies made of him being Spider Man.
Speaker 2: And since then he's done The Odyssey, He's done.
Speaker 1: Like a few other roles. He's worked with Robert Pattison
Speaker 1: for a very long time.
Speaker 2: But he's always been a kid, or like a younger brother,
Speaker 2: or like the little guy.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, like he is going to be typecasted now.
Speaker 2: Has always been the kid, and I'm interested to see
Speaker 2: how he transitions from doing these roles like these like
Speaker 2: boy from Queen's roles into being a proper adult role.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been some think pieces about that, saying it's
Speaker 1: time to put your big boy pats on.
Speaker 3: The interesting thing is his wife, I think, is a
Speaker 3: little bit less resistant to type casting. It seems to
Speaker 3: me that what she's done so successfully is separate her
Speaker 3: acting persona from who she is as a person, and
Speaker 3: I'm thinking that on the odesty press to it. She
Speaker 3: actually run into a little bit of controversy when her stylist,
Speaker 3: who we've mentioned here today, law Roach, got in a
Speaker 3: bit of hot water because he told press that one
Speaker 3: of the dresses she wore had been put on a
Speaker 3: private jet to go from the US to Europe or
Speaker 3: maybe it was vice versa. And obviously the carbon footprint
Speaker 3: of that dress is quite significant. But what was interesting
Speaker 3: is and Diya didn't get any of that associated criticism.
Speaker 3: It was understood that that was for a role, it
Speaker 3: was for work. Law Roach made the final call on that,
Speaker 3: and she didn't pick up any of the flag for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she has that like cool edit similarly to Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2: Where even Taylor Swift, I remember during the Ara's tour,
Speaker 2: there was talks about her catching a private jet to
Speaker 2: go from her airs tour in Tokyo to watch her
Speaker 2: boyfriend play a game and then fly back.
Speaker 3: It was the super Bowl, we should add, and.
Speaker 2: I wasn't talk about it like she did get crap
Speaker 2: for doing those private jet flights and people were tracking
Speaker 2: each flight she was doing, but it never actually like
Speaker 2: tainted her essence of celebrity.
Speaker 3: I actually think she has two private jets, but people don't.
Speaker 3: People don't necessarily associate that way because I.
Speaker 1: Still want to go to a concert and they will
Speaker 1: still listen to her music. There's what's most interesting to
Speaker 1: me about Secret Wedding number two is that those two
Speaker 1: have been on a red carpet NonStop for three months,
Speaker 1: like every premiere in every country in the world, pretty
Speaker 1: much every continent ever, increasingly ridiculous outfits for Zendea ever
Speaker 1: increasingly are shucks adorability for Tom and don't you reckon
Speaker 1: that when that press was all over as it is now,
Speaker 1: you'd just want to put your rugs on. No, they
Speaker 1: want to go and have a big web beaver Brook.
Speaker 1: A beaver Brook in a massive win for both robots
Speaker 1: and high school students. AI has killed homework for good.
Speaker 1: I exaggerate, but only just It's been announced that in
Speaker 1: New South Wales at home assignments are going to be
Speaker 1: broadly banned for HSC consideration because everyone knows that the
Speaker 1: kids are not doing them themselves. They are getting a
Speaker 1: lot of help from their mates chat jem claude. Other
Speaker 1: states and territories are doing similar things. Victoria and Queensland
Speaker 1: are both pushing closed book exams and limited screen time
Speaker 1: in schools. Controlled classroom environments featuring computer screen monitoring and
Speaker 1: network firewalls are hot right now. Work firewalls so that
Speaker 1: you can't be in class and using your chat. All
Speaker 1: around the world, this is happening too. In Denmark, for example,
Speaker 1: high school students have to orally defend their work. The
Speaker 1: reason I'm pronouncing it like that, Amelia, is because on
Speaker 1: Friday I got in trouble from Mia for saying orally
Speaker 1: wrong wrong again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounded like you were saying orally.
Speaker 1: Orally say it so orally really?
Speaker 3: Orally is hearing orally is speaking?
Speaker 1: Yes, I know, but it's I think I'm blaming my accent,
Speaker 1: but sure I get it. Orally defending any work like
Speaker 1: an essay completed at home, so you can't just hand
Speaker 1: it in. You have to like stand up and defend
Speaker 1: and explain all these things. Teachers are also getting better
Speaker 1: and better catching the kids out. Last week, this video
Speaker 1: went kind of viral from an American professor. Now, he
Speaker 1: said that what he's been doing is laying little trap
Speaker 1: for his students. So in the bit you're about to hear, now,
Speaker 1: he's going to tell you the result of what he's
Speaker 1: been doing is he'll set out the instructions for an
Speaker 1: essay and he'll hide inside it in white text and
Speaker 1: ridiculous prompt So in this case it was used the
Speaker 1: word Madagascar, but the kids can't see it, and so
Speaker 1: then he sends the essay away. And he said that
Speaker 1: when this one came back, thirty two out of the
Speaker 1: thirty five kids in his class had not only usdai,
Speaker 1: but not read back their homework because Madagascar is everywhere here,
Speaker 1: he is saying, giving a few examples.
Speaker 4: Part three, A lot of y'all wanted to actually hear
Speaker 4: how Madagascar was used in.
Speaker 1: Some of the prompts.
Speaker 4: I won't read the entire prompt, just maybe the sins
Speaker 4: before in the sinence it was actually used.
Speaker 1: Here's the first one.
Speaker 4: Today, technologies such as artificial intelligence, smartphones, and automation is
Speaker 4: changing many jobs by making work faster and reducing the
Speaker 4: need for some manual task. Madagascar flow sideways through the afternoon.
Speaker 1: And that was in the essay that came back. There's
Speaker 1: another one too, where is it here?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 4: At the same time, not everyone has the same access
Speaker 4: to technology, which can make social inequality even worse. Madagascar
Speaker 4: Purple Bicycle whispers to the ceiling.
Speaker 1: That guy is a professor from Mississippi called doctor James Gibson,
Speaker 1: and he has gone viral for showing these tricks, which,
Speaker 1: of course now the kids are all across, so they're
Speaker 1: going to have to develop more. Everyone hates homework, right,
Speaker 1: Is this a win for everybody? Or is this sadder?
Speaker 1: Is it just a sign of the times.
Speaker 2: I think it's a win for kids for sure. Why
Speaker 2: does homework exist? You're already doing it at school, and
Speaker 2: then you want me to do more work at home.
Speaker 2: We don't even do that in the workplace. But like
Speaker 2: kids have to do, like sport. They don't even get
Speaker 2: an afternoon nap anymore. You know how many times I
Speaker 2: would have loved an afternoon nap when I was in
Speaker 2: high school. The fact that these kids don't have to
Speaker 2: do homework anymore, I think is a whim for society.
Speaker 1: Well, because assignments are part of the school, right, So
Speaker 1: when you're doing directsc you still have to do exams,
Speaker 1: but you're doing at home assignments which might be deeper work,
Speaker 1: more creative work, like over a long period of time,
Speaker 1: putting together a lot of research information.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think broadly speaking, what we're seeing is
Speaker 3: a big correction from the last two decades of what
Speaker 3: was happening in Australian schools. Two decades ago, Kevin Rudd said,
Speaker 3: I'm going to make sure personally that every high school
Speaker 3: student in Australia between the years of nine and twelve
Speaker 3: is going to get a laptop. And everyone at the
Speaker 3: time thought that was so great, and it was the
Speaker 3: digital revolution. Remember that phrase information super highway, all of
Speaker 3: these phrases that we do not use anymore because we've
Speaker 3: realized it's not, in fact a super highway. It's more
Speaker 3: like a pothold road to nowhere. So then everyone got
Speaker 3: the laptops. Then they got to university, and then their
Speaker 3: professors there realized that they were behind where they should be.
Speaker 3: And now we're trying to sort of have the pendulum
Speaker 3: swing back in the other direction. There's a word for
Speaker 3: what you're describing here, hollywhich is descreening. So a lot
Speaker 3: of Australian schools are consciously figuring out ways to make
Speaker 3: sure that screens are not used in the classroom. And
Speaker 3: part of this is we've also realized in the ensuing
Speaker 3: years that the actual act of writing things down with
Speaker 3: a pen and paper can aid in learning and internalizing knowledge.
Speaker 3: If you're just typing something, you're not getting the knowledge
Speaker 3: imprinted on your head in the same way as when
Speaker 3: you actually write something with pen and paper.
Speaker 1: And if you're just copying and pasting it from chat
Speaker 1: GPT without checking that it doesn't say mad doing basketball,
Speaker 1: that you're not learning anything at that they're not even
Speaker 1: reading the antwers before they admit. It's like a whole
Speaker 1: it is. We have a lot of teachers who listen
Speaker 1: to out loud and I my heart goes out to
Speaker 1: them right because as if it's not hard enough, we're
Speaker 1: always talking about all the extra things that are piled
Speaker 1: on teachers in terms of looking after kids social and
Speaker 1: mental well being as well as their education and all
Speaker 1: these things. And now it's also you have to be
Speaker 1: wilier than a fox to try and trip them up
Speaker 1: on AI use, so it feels like you're just always
Speaker 1: running to catch up, whereas we any parent of kids
Speaker 1: who are old enough to have access to technology knows
Speaker 1: they are streets ahead of us always.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right, So you think that you're being really cool and
Speaker 1: you've got your screen time limits on there and you've
Speaker 1: got all that kind of thing, but they always find
Speaker 1: a way around it.
Speaker 2: It's almost embarrassing on how much we forget that kids
Speaker 2: are so so smart. I remember when I was in
Speaker 2: year six, which would have been two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: we had two police officers come in for assembly and
Speaker 2: they were talking about the dangers of Facebook and MySpace,
Speaker 2: and kids were laughing because it was stuff that we
Speaker 2: already knew, but we knew it was stuff that our
Speaker 2: parents didn't know.
Speaker 1: Like every kid had.
Speaker 2: Like a Facebook profile on MySpace page that they hid
Speaker 2: from their And it went on with like being on
Speaker 2: a egle and talking to strangers online, like every person
Speaker 2: knew how to use technology, and we were years ahead
Speaker 2: of our parents and trying to catch up even with
Speaker 2: the social media band. I know so many kids who
Speaker 2: still have social media, Like it's almost embarrassing on how
Speaker 2: we don't we always forget that kids are so so
Speaker 2: smart and so ahead of the curve, and when we
Speaker 2: implement these new processes for AI and things like that,
Speaker 2: we're always doing it from an adult perspective, where it's like,
Speaker 2: how do we use AI? How do we be safe
Speaker 2: on AI? Forgetting that kids who were doing it probably
Speaker 2: a few years before us.
Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting. I'd love to know what you think
Speaker 1: about that, Amelia, because it's like, to me, in a way,
Speaker 1: this seems quite quick, Like it feels almost as if
Speaker 1: education systems in Australia and around the world are being
Speaker 1: quite reactive, quite fast on cracking down on this because
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, unless it's your industry, they're
Speaker 1: only just figuring out what AI can do, and we're
Speaker 1: and are only just learning now, Oh, they can write
Speaker 1: your essay for you, they can do interpret your but
Speaker 1: we're only just going, oh, that's interesting. So it does
Speaker 1: feel like this reactivity is working well. But then isn't
Speaker 1: it a bit unfair, Amelia, because not all kids perform
Speaker 1: really well in exams. For lots of people, kids who
Speaker 1: are more creative or less sort of conventionally knowledge based
Speaker 1: assignment work is so much better for them, and that's
Speaker 1: just going to go and it's going to be back
Speaker 1: to books, exams, closed rooms, pens and paper. Is that
Speaker 1: a good thing?
Speaker 3: You're just on the quick point. I think part of
Speaker 3: the reason why the education system is trying to get
Speaker 3: on this so quickly is that there's a sense that
Speaker 3: social media society as a whole drop the ball for kids. Yes,
Speaker 3: we did not understand quickly enough the damage that it
Speaker 3: did to kids' brains, and things like the social media
Speaker 3: band have only been so effective, in fact mostly ineffective.
Speaker 3: So I think as a society we feel determined not
Speaker 3: to let that happen with AI. On the fairness point,
Speaker 3: I think that's a great point. And I also think
Speaker 3: kids look around and they see everyone else using AI,
Speaker 3: and there's a sense of rules for me and not
Speaker 3: for these. So just today there was this article in
Speaker 3: the nine newspapers about how Kmart is using AI now
Speaker 3: to hire holiday casuals. This is not by any means
Speaker 3: restricted to Kmart, Woolworths, Bunning's Conscious. These are all companies
Speaker 3: that are now using AI in hiring. My husband actually
Speaker 3: did an interview on AI recently and it was the
Speaker 3: weirdest thing he had to dress up in a shirt
Speaker 3: and a tie for this AI interview, and I heard
Speaker 3: him doing it in the other room, and there was
Speaker 3: just there'd just be a period of silence, and then
Speaker 3: he would answer the question because the AI would give
Speaker 3: him a prompt, and then he would have to speak
Speaker 3: to the AI as if it was a human. There
Speaker 3: was something very sort of almost humiliating about that.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, like trying to impress because I'm not
Speaker 1: a human entity, and the I don't want to sound
Speaker 1: like I'm clutching my pearls like a nana. But the
Speaker 1: idea of all the things you would learn if you
Speaker 1: were sitting across the table from your husband, from his
Speaker 1: body language, from the way he talks, and the way
Speaker 1: he presents, whether he's smiling, whether he's not just gone,
Speaker 1: that's exactly frightening.
Speaker 3: And look, with this came out interview that the nine
Speaker 3: newspapers wrote about today, the AI bot says at the start,
Speaker 3: we'll ask you five thought provoking questions that will reveal
Speaker 3: your strengths and help you identify areas for growth. And
Speaker 3: then apparently it says you're not allowed to use AI
Speaker 3: for your responses, which first of all, just feels like
Speaker 3: a very clear power imbalance between employer and would be employee.
Speaker 3: And then after the interview you were emailed some areas
Speaker 3: for improvement. So the AI emailed this journalist and said, look,
Speaker 3: you seem like you're very trustworthy on the plus side.
Speaker 3: On the con side, you seem a bit bossy.
Speaker 1: Oh the robot's telling me I'm boss.
Speaker 3: Yeah, not in so many words. It was phrase more
Speaker 3: tactfully than that. But I don't want the AI telling
Speaker 3: me what's wrong with me.
Speaker 1: I've got commissions to do that, Amelia. I'm trying, we
Speaker 1: try really hard on this show to remain positive or
Speaker 1: not beaten.
Speaker 3: Now I just want to.
Speaker 1: Walk out of the store on the PUSA.
Speaker 3: I do think that just to bring it back to
Speaker 3: that idea that we are not going to as a society,
Speaker 3: let what social media did your kids happen to? This
Speaker 3: next generation of Jena so interesting.
Speaker 1: I have one complaint, which is why I said that
Speaker 1: in my throwaway thing about this that I'm unhappy, and
Speaker 1: that's that we need homework to stop the kids from
Speaker 1: just being on TikTok and video games at all times.
Speaker 1: If you do away with that homework, now my kids
Speaker 1: are just unfettered into the algorithms that have been set
Speaker 1: for them by other robots in other places. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: there is no escape. Please bring back.
Speaker 3: Homework after the break, grab a cup of tea, snuggle
Speaker 3: up under a crochet blanket, and let's figure out if
Speaker 3: there's anything wrong with just wanting to be cozy. Okay.
Speaker 3: On Saturday night, I went out with a friend just
Speaker 3: for a quiet drink at the pub and we were
Speaker 3: sitting in I love a quiet drinking.
Speaker 1: I was so great for you.
Speaker 3: We meditate thirty, which felt rather daring for me, and
Speaker 3: across the courtyard we spied a group of young women
Speaker 3: who must have been no older than maybe twenty twenty one,
Speaker 3: and they were huddled over a game of cards. My
Speaker 3: first instinct when I saw them was that looks incredibly cozy.
Speaker 3: But then my friend, who had a wilder and more
Speaker 3: adventurous youth than I did, said she felt sad because
Speaker 3: she said they should be out making mistakes, they shouldn't
Speaker 3: be just playing cards together. So this is the cult
Speaker 3: of cozy in action. I've been thinking about this cult
Speaker 3: of cozy lately because there's been this spate of articles
Speaker 3: about how young people, particularly after COVID are prioritizing their
Speaker 3: well being and their happiness in a way that other
Speaker 3: generations such as mine and Holly did not. We didn't
Speaker 3: prioritize well being in happiness, no hangovers. You're doing fewer
Speaker 3: recreational drugs, they're drinking less, they're having less sex, and
Speaker 3: instead they're embracing creative, wholesome, tactile activities. The New York
Speaker 3: Times called it hobby maxing or hobby hobby amory. Another
Speaker 3: term for it is having a side quest. I think
Speaker 3: it brings a little like whimsy to your life, which
Speaker 3: has nothing to do with your job or anything like that.
Speaker 3: The New York Times says, though, that there is a
Speaker 3: dark side to this, which is that, okay, fine, you're
Speaker 3: in great health. You're not vomiting into toilets, which Holly
Speaker 3: and I may or may not have done. You are
Speaker 3: instead pursuing these hobbies at the expense of romantic relationships.
Speaker 3: In fact, get at your pearls, Holly, clutch them because
Speaker 3: some of them aren't dating at all. Frum gen Zis
Speaker 3: are just saying I just want to crochet, I'm not
Speaker 3: interested in dating. Are we okay with this? And m
Speaker 3: what is your side quest.
Speaker 2: Oh, my side quest right now is I'm learning a
Speaker 2: lot about wines.
Speaker 1: Which I don't think young people would think that's something cool.
Speaker 3: No, but that is cozy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I Holly, I do prioritized hangovers as well.
Speaker 2: I thought, give it like a more elevator.
Speaker 3: You like getting into your sideways.
Speaker 2: I'm going into wine bars where like they can educate me.
Speaker 1: On the wine that I drink. This is a very
Speaker 1: thirty This is because you've turned I turned thirty doing that.
Speaker 1: I saw a thing recently.
Speaker 3: I won't.
Speaker 1: I will get all the stats wrong if I quote it.
Speaker 1: So I shan't but that young people aren't drinking wine right,
Speaker 1: and that the wine industry is panicking. But they just
Speaker 1: need patience. The people thirty and suddenly be like that
Speaker 1: someone with the skin.
Speaker 3: Fine.
Speaker 2: There are two reasons I think why having a hobby
Speaker 2: is better than having a boyfriend. The number one reason
Speaker 2: is that hobbies will always be there, and hobbies always
Speaker 2: look good in an Instagram post. So I do understand
Speaker 2: why young people are choosing that over romantic relationships. But
Speaker 2: I also want to bring up what your friend said,
Speaker 2: which is people should go out and make mistakes. Why
Speaker 2: why do all the people want to always make mistakes.
Speaker 1: Why do they always want us?
Speaker 2: There's so many thing pieces about why people people are panicking.
Speaker 2: The young people aren't having sex anymore, and.
Speaker 3: Let me explain why. So when we were having this
Speaker 3: chat on Saturday, I said that looks cozy. She said
Speaker 3: they should be making mistakes. But she had at first said, oh,
Speaker 3: that's so cute, because that's what me and my boyfriend do.
Speaker 3: Now they are both in their forties and this is
Speaker 3: what they do. They play cards together. And I think
Speaker 3: that's fine for them. But the point is you had
Speaker 3: the rest of your life to play cards together. I
Speaker 3: think that's the argument as to why the young people
Speaker 3: should not be playing cards.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting, it's so fun.
Speaker 2: Like when I in my early twenties, I was very
Speaker 2: much like, go out every night, get drunk, make mistakes,
Speaker 2: do all of that. And then COVID happened when I
Speaker 2: was around twenty four to twenty five, and then since that,
Speaker 2: I've literally been only doing hobbies like that.
Speaker 1: Life is gone.
Speaker 2: So I think about with the young people who are
Speaker 2: younger than me, who might be in their mid twenties.
Speaker 2: Now I'll talk about my sister an example. It happened
Speaker 2: to her when she was in UNI. She didn't make
Speaker 2: a single university friend because she never met a single
Speaker 2: university person. So her whole Uni, those whole three years,
Speaker 2: she did completely online.
Speaker 1: This is your sister, This is my sister. She's now
Speaker 1: twenty four.
Speaker 2: So is she into hobbies. She's so into hobbies. She's
Speaker 2: developed an Instagram page just for her hobbies. Wow, and
Speaker 2: she is so into it.
Speaker 3: What abby?
Speaker 1: Her hobbies include?
Speaker 2: She reads a lot, like, she reads about three books
Speaker 2: a week, and she made an Instagram page on that.
Speaker 2: Drinking tea is a big hobby of hers.
Speaker 3: Is maxing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is very cozy. She's never been to a nightclub.
Speaker 2: She's never been Amelia that remember, never been to.
Speaker 3: A night never a club.
Speaker 2: She's never gotten drunk. And I'm sure she'd love me
Speaker 2: airing her. Don't laundry, but like, and I don't.
Speaker 3: Know any laundry laundry.
Speaker 2: I don't know many young people her hey age, All
Speaker 2: her friends and stuff are all the same. And I
Speaker 2: think that's because when they came out of COVID, they
Speaker 2: actually didn't know how to make friends. And I think
Speaker 2: when I see young women out hanging out together doing
Speaker 2: beating together, going to book clubs together.
Speaker 1: This is our way of learning how.
Speaker 2: Because if you tried to make friends at a nightclub,
Speaker 2: it's not going to be a good friend.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you that right now.
Speaker 3: I'm could have made good friends in nightclubs. That is
Speaker 3: the worst argument ever get and have sex all the business.
Speaker 1: It's so true. You have a really good point there
Speaker 1: about why does everybody want you to have more sex?
Speaker 3: It is making good friends in nightclubs a less good point.
Speaker 1: It is creepy that we are all nostalgically obsessed with
Speaker 1: trying to make young people do all the dastardly things
Speaker 1: that we did, and then we should be at home
Speaker 1: doing homework in.
Speaker 3: The same confusing.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because gen X, which is where I am,
Speaker 1: you know that we famously partied pretty hard, and there's
Speaker 1: saying another big area of growth in terms of nightlife
Speaker 1: is old people raving gen X basically still not wanting
Speaker 1: to let go of that lifestyle. And they probably aren't
Speaker 1: drinking as much or in vibing quite as many you know,
Speaker 1: questionable things as they were when they're doing when they're twenty,
Speaker 1: but they for them. Then nostalgia is lots of people
Speaker 1: big room, big noise, being out being in that, and
Speaker 1: that's the nostalgia. And I think that it's very hard
Speaker 1: for any of us to understand why other people don't
Speaker 1: love the things that we love, right, Like, you're kind
Speaker 1: of going, but that's energy, and it's true. Is that
Speaker 1: I on Saturday night? Actually, if we're all sharing our
Speaker 1: Saturday nights here, not that anyone asks, but hey, I
Speaker 1: went to see live music on Saturday night. One of
Speaker 1: my friends is a performer and she had a show. Now,
Speaker 1: I was not in the mood. I wanted to be cozy, Amelia.
Speaker 1: I was tired a bit, you know, stuff's going on
Speaker 1: in life. I wanted to be in bed and just
Speaker 1: let not go. But I did the grown up thing.
Speaker 1: I did the thing that's true to my gen X self,
Speaker 1: and I got ready and I went out and I
Speaker 1: drank champagne. I had a great time. And you're like,
Speaker 1: I remember why it's so wonderful to be in a
Speaker 1: room with lots of people who are all listening to
Speaker 1: the same thing and enjoying the same thing, and watching
Speaker 1: someone create art and all that stuff, like it was great.
Speaker 1: Beating would not have been the same.
Speaker 3: And I love beating them.
Speaker 1: I mean, I love, I've got my own meaning, but
Speaker 1: I do have my own cozy hobbies, like I love
Speaker 1: my garden and all that stuff. But it's very I
Speaker 1: think that part of why jen X in particular is
Speaker 1: always going on at the young people to like go
Speaker 1: out and get get drunk, make mistakes, sleep with the
Speaker 1: wrong people. Is almost our own sense of shame. We
Speaker 1: want it to be. We see it as judgment that
Speaker 1: they're not doing it, you know what I mean, Whereas
Speaker 1: I think you could see because obviously there is judgment.
Speaker 1: It is judgment, it definitely is. Because there are lots
Speaker 1: of reasons why. Finance is a reason why you've made
Speaker 1: a very good point about the pandemic. The other reason
Speaker 1: why is that we're everybody's so perceived all the time now,
Speaker 1: and that you know, and if you go out, it's
Speaker 1: a whole thing's to be documented. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: effort involved in that, in terms of being ready, being
Speaker 1: looking great, having everything instagrammable. It's exhausting. So I get
Speaker 1: why you wouldn't want to. And I think it's interesting
Speaker 1: because a lot of gen X is carry the weight
Speaker 1: of all that, you know, acceptance of over drinking and
Speaker 1: all those things, and it's almost like we want to
Speaker 1: push it on you, like you have to have these
Speaker 1: problems too. We can't just be up here with our
Speaker 1: red flag drinking and our broken relationships and all those
Speaker 1: like that. You guys have to get into this. It
Speaker 1: is weird. I agree.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so when you see young people hobby maxing, are
Speaker 2: you just like sad or you kind of like, wow,
Speaker 2: good for them. They seem like they're having a really
Speaker 2: good time, and I should probably respect that.
Speaker 1: My instinct is what Amelia said, which is you've got
Speaker 1: your whole life to do that. Like I remember being
Speaker 1: young and I had a boyfriend and I was really
Speaker 1: keen for us to like cook dinner together, and you know,
Speaker 1: like that was so cozy. But you know, I'm sure
Speaker 1: you relate. You're kind of like that would be so
Speaker 1: nice to just stay in together on a Saturday night
Speaker 1: and make something nice for tea. But then when you've
Speaker 1: had twenty thirty years doing that, you're like, why was
Speaker 1: I doing?
Speaker 2: But then when you cooked dinner together, then you can
Speaker 2: meal prep for the rest of the week, and then
Speaker 2: you don't have to buy lunch.
Speaker 3: Batch cook's sensible. Look, holy what I'm going to quote
Speaker 3: from her substack, rather than sort of project onto young people.
Speaker 3: She wrote a substack recently called are You Cozy or
Speaker 3: Are You Depressed? And she talked about how her interest
Speaker 3: in being cozy and in sort of leaving parties early
Speaker 3: and not going out at all did coincide with her
Speaker 3: becoming depressed, and she's now realized that that was sort
Speaker 3: of too extreme and the issue is finding a balance,
Speaker 3: which sometimes does mean getting out of her comfort zone,
Speaker 3: but which for her will never mean clubbing and drinking.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, I think, yeah, the definition, I don't know
Speaker 2: depends on a definition of cozy, because I see cozy
Speaker 2: also being out and doing things like going to book clubs,
Speaker 2: going to a wine bar. Like you're still going out,
Speaker 2: You're still doing things. I think there is exactly what
Speaker 2: she said, a difference between being inside all the time
Speaker 2: and doing things. And this is from like my perspective,
Speaker 2: and I've also been diagnosed with depression of you can
Speaker 2: get in like a little bit of a rut if
Speaker 2: you're constantly doing things on your own at home in
Speaker 2: the dark, under a blanket, disguising it as the idea
Speaker 2: of doing a cozy activity. I think that's exactly what
Speaker 2: she said where it becomes dangerous, But I think.
Speaker 1: You can still be cozy. Like those group of girls.
Speaker 3: They like they looked cozy.
Speaker 1: They're going out.
Speaker 2: There, they're making friends, they're playing cards, they're doing something.
Speaker 1: They're just not making mistakes.
Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg's in his villain era. I'm just going to
Speaker 3: read the headline from The Guardian which came across the
Speaker 3: Chance in this morning. Zuckerberg faces questions over why super
Speaker 3: yacht reportedly declined to help stranded vote. Oh wow, zuck
Speaker 3: was yourch was cruising in Alaska. It costs four hundred
Speaker 3: and twenty five million dollars. This yacht and a nearby
Speaker 3: skiff ran out of fuel, but Zuckerberg's yacht failed to
Speaker 3: respond to the distress call, and instead a small commercial
Speaker 3: cruise ship, which was much further away, had to come
Speaker 3: to the skiff's aid. You might remember this yacht because
Speaker 3: earlier this year there were some dawning headlines when it
Speaker 3: sailed into Seattle Harbor at the exact time that Meta
Speaker 3: laid off hundreds of employees. The yacht, actually it sounds
Speaker 3: like a really nice yacht. It was originally owned by
Speaker 3: a sanctioned Russian oligarch. They've always got really good taste.
Speaker 3: And now I should say apparently Zuk and his wife
Speaker 3: were not on the yacht at the time, so it's
Speaker 3: not their fault, but they are the yacht's fault. It's
Speaker 3: the yacht's fault. But they are also in the headlines
Speaker 3: for another classic villain move, which is they closed a
Speaker 3: school they founded for disadvantaged children. The Primary School, as
Speaker 3: it was called, was co founded by Zuckerberg's pediatrician wife,
Speaker 3: Priscilla in twenty sixteen. School was outside San Francisco. Reading
Speaker 3: from its website, it says the primary school was founded
Speaker 3: on the guiding principle that raising a child is a
Speaker 3: team effort. Well, apparently not that much of a team effort,
Speaker 3: because the sixth richest man in the world and his
Speaker 3: wife cited difficulties in raising funds for the school as
Speaker 3: a reason for closing it. They just passed around the
Speaker 3: hat didn't get enough money and said, you know what,
Speaker 3: did yousa found each kids really need a school?
Speaker 1: Probably, no, we really need a yacht.
Speaker 3: And now the local school has to put up portable
Speaker 3: trailers because there are five hundred students who need to
Speaker 3: stay in school ahead of the start of the next
Speaker 3: academic year.
Speaker 1: They should have thought of a better excuse. I don't
Speaker 1: think they could say there isn't enough money for this
Speaker 1: school when they've got.
Speaker 3: More money than anyone.
Speaker 1: You know. There's been a bit of chitchat about how
Speaker 1: much chitchat we do about billionaires.
Speaker 3: Yeah, people think I mean to them well.
Speaker 1: And also some people are like, why do you talk
Speaker 1: about them, like they are not relevant, But I want
Speaker 1: to make the point that they are relevant because we
Speaker 1: live in an era where they are the most powerful
Speaker 1: people in the world, right, like no question.
Speaker 3: If you're on the skiff.
Speaker 1: But also they're more powerful than most governments. They're way
Speaker 1: more powerful than most politicians. They've got more money than
Speaker 1: most you know, small nations and large nail and.
Speaker 3: Mask is like the twentieth richest country in the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think it's like that's kind of why
Speaker 1: it's interesting what they do, where they go, how they behave.
Speaker 1: I was when I went to see The Odyssey, as
Speaker 1: I have already mentioned, because I'm so proud that I
Speaker 1: went to the movies. I saw the trailer for The
Speaker 1: Social Reckoning Have you seen that? So it's kind of
Speaker 1: like the next wave of the Social Network movie written
Speaker 1: by Aaron Sorkins, starring Jeremy Strong, Jeremy Strong from Succession.
Speaker 3: And Jeremy Allen White.
Speaker 1: Yeah play yes, So Jeremy Strong plays Zuckerberg. And one
Speaker 1: thing you can get very quickly from the trailer is
Speaker 1: this is not a very flattering It is going to
Speaker 1: be really interesting because it very much plays them just again,
Speaker 1: I've only seen the trailer, but as being in the
Speaker 1: villain era and being the villains of our time.
Speaker 3: So yeah, they said recently they couldn't afford the school,
Speaker 3: but now they're redirecting the funds that they used to
Speaker 3: spend on research into early childhood education into drum roll
Speaker 3: please ai oh.
Speaker 1: Oh no, interviewing you for your next job. Happy for them,
Speaker 1: I guess. Okay, we've got to have something cheerful to
Speaker 1: talk about, I'm sure. And what's next.
Speaker 2: After the break, we have a very famous actor on
Speaker 2: why he ended a twenty nine year friendship. Very cheerful
Speaker 2: actor Richard E. Grant went on the Mad, Bad, Sad
Speaker 2: podcast Great Name, hosted by a Paloma Faith, and he
Speaker 2: talked about how he was betrayed by his best friend
Speaker 2: and exactly what he did about it.
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this what I thought was.
Speaker 5: One of the five best friends of my life. She
Speaker 5: sent an email. Because my name was in the body
Speaker 5: of the email I got inadvertently sent this email and
Speaker 5: it arrived on a day when I had heard for
Speaker 5: the third time that a film that I'd written and
Speaker 5: was about to direct the finances had collapsed, and I
Speaker 5: was doing the final episode of Frasier. I got this
Speaker 5: email that wasn't intended for me to see, but there
Speaker 5: was a paragraph of such toxicity and I out here, Yeah,
Speaker 5: and I thought, this person is that's not a real
Speaker 5: friend anymore. And I was absolutely devastated. So I copied
Speaker 5: and pasted that and then sent it back and I said,
Speaker 5: twenty nine years of friendship.
Speaker 3: Question, man, what was it? Ann annihilation of your character?
Speaker 5: It was of my script that I had written, which
Speaker 5: was entirely autobiographical. My daughter was very smart because she
Speaker 5: was sixteen. She said to me, in your heart of hearts,
Speaker 5: haven't you always known this about that person? So when
Speaker 5: you're betrayed like that, it's there's no going back for me.
Speaker 1: There's a lot to unpack in that A lot. Number one.
Speaker 1: If you ever wondered what a posh English accent is
Speaker 1: that's a Polish got it go away?
Speaker 2: When I first listened to this, my fear that instilled
Speaker 2: in me was like, how did that email was accidentally
Speaker 2: sent to him?
Speaker 1: Because his name was in the bottom.
Speaker 3: I think it's because sometimes this has happened in lower
Speaker 3: stakes ways than me. Sometimes, when you were thinking of
Speaker 3: a person who the email is about, you can sometimes
Speaker 3: accidentally address it to them.
Speaker 2: That's disgusting, it is I think I'm blaming the Okay,
Speaker 2: I have some questions for the for the group about this.
Speaker 3: Yes? Right? Is there? So?
Speaker 1: There are two things that are really interesting to me
Speaker 1: in this is. One is talking shit about one of
Speaker 1: your friends, if there's ever a safe way to do that,
Speaker 1: And the other is about criticizing your friend's work. Because
Speaker 1: those are two quite different things.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So the first one is, if you've been friends with
Speaker 1: someone for twenty nine years and you've got an intense relationship,
Speaker 1: probably sometimes you need to let off a bit of
Speaker 1: steam about them.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Is there any such thing as a safe place to
Speaker 1: do what you could maybe term healthy venting about a friend?
Speaker 1: Or is that the very definition of not being a friend.
Speaker 1: I don't think you can.
Speaker 2: I think if they're your best best friend and you
Speaker 2: need to vent about something that they're doing. The person
Speaker 2: you should be venting to is that friend. Can you say,
Speaker 2: without wanting to get you in any trouble, that you
Speaker 2: literally never talk to your friends about another friend? Literally
Speaker 2: you never do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're driving me crazy at the moment. Or I
Speaker 1: wish you'd do blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: Close acquaintances, yeah, free for all. Yeah, yeah, I can
Speaker 2: do whatever close close friends, hand on heart. Never, I'll
Speaker 2: never talk to a friend about another friend. I will
Speaker 2: talk directly to that friend if they're doing something I
Speaker 2: don't like.
Speaker 1: Ooh, that's a high bar. I'm very impressed. I try
Speaker 1: very hard not to talk shit, but sometimes sometimes it's
Speaker 1: very hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yes, I don't quite believe this. I'm sorry, really, okay.
Speaker 1: I know that you've always prided yourself a memory direct
Speaker 1: and I know that's very true about you. But let's
Speaker 1: say that one of your really good friends is in
Speaker 1: a relationship that you think is bullshit. Let's use that
Speaker 1: as an example. Are you really telling me that you
Speaker 1: would never say to one of your other friends in
Speaker 1: your friendship? I wish Betty would like he's such a dick.
Speaker 1: Really never a good example, because you know how they
Speaker 1: say a test is would you say this to them?
Speaker 1: And if you wouldn't say this to them, you shouldn't
Speaker 1: say it.
Speaker 3: But the reason why that's a good example is because
Speaker 3: that's not bitching about your friend. That's saying like that
Speaker 3: choice is creating problems for her soul.
Speaker 2: So friend a shitty relationship. I go to friend B
Speaker 2: and I say she's in a shitty relationship. I want
Speaker 2: to do something about it. I want to address it.
Speaker 2: I will never just let that conversation stay with friend B.
Speaker 2: It'll always has to bring back to friend A, and
Speaker 2: I'll be like, I talked to this person, we think
Speaker 2: you should do this, Or I'll bring all of us
Speaker 2: together and be like, we think you should do this intervention.
Speaker 2: But I will never just let a side conversation happen
Speaker 2: about a friend but am addressing it in the end.
Speaker 1: I try very hard. I can't say that I always
Speaker 1: live up to that. It's very impressive because.
Speaker 2: I think my friendships and I was thinking about what
Speaker 2: Richard was saying about ending the twenty nine year friendship,
Speaker 2: and it made me a bit like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: that's really scary. Because I think my friendships live in
Speaker 2: between romantic partner and sibling. If a romantic partner did
Speaker 2: that to me, I think immediate breakup. If a sibling
Speaker 2: did that to me, I like, that's fine, Like it
Speaker 2: will be really really hard, But you can't break up
Speaker 2: with a sibling. And friendships live in that middle space.
Speaker 2: That's always a great area. So I actually don't know
Speaker 2: what I would do.
Speaker 1: There is a possibility that friend who wrote the shit
Speaker 1: about rich D Grant did not see their friendship in
Speaker 1: quite the same frame that he did.
Speaker 3: What I was intrigued by in that is, he said
Speaker 3: this person was one of the five best friends of
Speaker 3: my life, which struck me just as a surprising formulation
Speaker 3: because I don't think I've ever had the thought of
Speaker 3: this person as one of the five best friends of
Speaker 3: my life. It just feels like a strange way of
Speaker 3: putting friends on tears.
Speaker 1: I think that that makes sense to me, Like, because
Speaker 1: over your life, you probably have you're closer to different
Speaker 1: people at different times, and you probably have maybe you know,
Speaker 1: you might have school friends, uni friends, work friends, whatever,
Speaker 1: and at different yeah, you probably gotten inner circle that
Speaker 1: is your.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Yeah, I could see that. I guess. The
Speaker 3: other thing about this that I thought was, this is
Speaker 3: a particular predicament about work and friendship and mixing the
Speaker 3: two of them. And I know you're as a novelist, Holly,
Speaker 3: You're putting your work out there in the world, and
Speaker 3: it must be sometimes stressful when you have a book
Speaker 3: coming out? Do you how do you navigate that with
Speaker 3: your friends?
Speaker 1: So I'm weird in that my friends will tell you,
Speaker 1: particularly my friends who are like not in my world,
Speaker 1: like my professional world. I hate talking to them about
Speaker 1: my professional world. I don't do it. So I was
Speaker 1: thinking about this in that it isn't a prerequisite to
Speaker 1: be my friend that you have to like my books, like,
Speaker 1: because I can't control that. Like, you might love me,
Speaker 1: but you might think my books are shit. I don't
Speaker 1: want you to tell me that you think my books
Speaker 1: are shit. But you don't have to pretend that you
Speaker 1: like them, because that's worse. You can always tell when
Speaker 1: somebody doesn't really like your work and it's like it's
Speaker 1: so interesting, like or they're reaching around. So I think
Speaker 1: you have to if you've got if your work is
Speaker 1: in the public sphere in any way, or maybe it's
Speaker 1: creative or well who knows, but it touches people in
Speaker 1: a way that they would have opinions about it. You
Speaker 1: kind of have to make for me. The way that
Speaker 1: I do it is there's I feel like there's a
Speaker 1: firm divide, like you don't have to and we don't
Speaker 1: have to talk about it, and we can pretend that
Speaker 1: I don't have a book coming out and that it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. In fact, I would rather than like professional
Speaker 1: like friends who are in the same professional world is
Speaker 1: a bit different, which is maybe where this falls for
Speaker 1: they grant is you would expect them to support you
Speaker 1: and help you do well. It's because it's like whether
Speaker 1: they love it or not is not really the point.
Speaker 1: You just would like their support. But if my friend's
Speaker 1: a teacher, then I like she doesn't always prefer that.
Speaker 2: She doesn't exist because it's unequal, Like you're not going
Speaker 2: to go to a friend who works in a bank
Speaker 2: and like judge them on their job and go to
Speaker 2: their presentations. But I think what's a bit different about
Speaker 2: the Richard story is that because he said that it
Speaker 2: was a memoir, so I have a feeling that what
Speaker 2: she critiqued was something that was quite personal and was
Speaker 2: more of a critique on him as a person rather
Speaker 2: than his actual skill set, and I think that can
Speaker 2: depending on what exactly she said, that definitely could end
Speaker 2: a friendship.
Speaker 3: I had a friend who I think me. I had
Speaker 3: a very close friend in my twenties and we just
Speaker 3: shared everything with each other. We would have been the
Speaker 3: ones playing cards at the pub all through our twenties
Speaker 3: when we were at that stage, as Richard E. Grant
Speaker 3: is saying, where you're sort of seeing who's going to
Speaker 3: make it, who's going to live out their dreams. And
Speaker 3: this Warmer friend of mine is very successful at what
Speaker 3: she does and it's in the media, so we are
Speaker 3: in the same field. But I invited her to my
Speaker 3: wedding when we were sort of a little bit rocky,
Speaker 3: because I just had this feeling of I just want
Speaker 3: to sort of have a big tent, literally, so I
Speaker 3: invited her to the wedding. And then I learned later
Speaker 3: that she had criticized my first dance that's not okay,
Speaker 3: and look, I'm not a good dancer, but I wasn't
Speaker 3: trying to be a good dancer, and it was just.
Speaker 1: To other people at the wedding.
Speaker 3: Yes, apparently as it was going on, she like live
Speaker 3: critiqued it, know live critique, Like she gave a live critique,
Speaker 3: and so I literally never spoke to her again, does
Speaker 3: she know that you?
Speaker 1: That's what happened, Like, did you know how Richard E.
Speaker 1: Grant copied the paragraph back? You could have been like,
Speaker 1: I heard you said my footwork.
Speaker 3: Well, actually what happened was I learned about it on
Speaker 3: Twitter back when it was Twitter. Long story, but so,
Speaker 3: I mean I guess she knew that it had been
Speaker 3: publicly disclosed.
Speaker 1: WHOA, Because so here's my thing about Like I know
Speaker 1: you shouldn't tear friendships, and I don't really, but there
Speaker 1: are people who are friends of mine who I like
Speaker 1: and I enjoy hanging out with, but I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: trust them, and it's not an important thing then, But
Speaker 1: you're in a circle your five best friends, as he describes,
Speaker 1: they should punch someone in the face if they're critiquing
Speaker 1: your first dance. I don't mean literally, we don't condone violence.
Speaker 1: But what I mean is there's like, if you're an
Speaker 1: acquaintance at that wedding, you can make a little joke
Speaker 1: about something, but not in that in a tent, absolutely
Speaker 1: not like you expect a level of trust that would
Speaker 1: not allow that to happen.
Speaker 3: And what I relate to in what Richard E. Grant
Speaker 3: is saying here, I'll always think of him as mister
Speaker 3: Spice World, But what he's saying here is that it's
Speaker 3: it's particularly helpful because when you make friends in your youth,
Speaker 3: you really do share absolutely everything with each other. And
Speaker 3: so there was this sense that she knows everything about
Speaker 3: me and everything that has led to and arguably culminated
Speaker 3: in this moment, and for her to then sort of
Speaker 3: demean the moment makes it even more egregious.
Speaker 1: Do you think there is any way back for a
Speaker 1: situation where that line's been crossed, like in the Richard E.
Speaker 1: Grant case, Like, is there any way back from the
Speaker 1: email or the overheard conversation or the you know whatever.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's any way back from that?
Speaker 3: I think there is. I'll just would you if she
Speaker 3: had come to me and said, here's why I chose
Speaker 3: or here's why I wanted to kind of bring you
Speaker 3: down in that moment and then gave me an explanation
Speaker 3: that was rooted in what was going on for her vulnerabilities,
Speaker 3: that she was some vulnerability the issues she was bringing
Speaker 3: to the table when she made that criticism. I think
Speaker 3: I would be very open to that, because it's a
Speaker 3: source of sadness when someone with whom you were so
Speaker 3: close is no longer in your life. But she never
Speaker 3: did that, so I guess it's hypothetically.
Speaker 1: And I guess Richard E. Grant's friend never said, this
Speaker 1: is why I was so harsh about your work. It's
Speaker 1: because I'm jealous, or it's because I wish that for myself,
Speaker 1: or because I think you're better than that, or whatever.
Speaker 1: It's really hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: The older I get, the less less tolerable I am
Speaker 2: of mean people.
Speaker 1: One last question the daughter who said, did you always know?
Speaker 3: Deep down?
Speaker 1: That's a really good question.
Speaker 3: Yes. The answer yes, that would make me.
Speaker 1: Spon because it's you often know, don't you like? I'm
Speaker 1: very if you know how sometimes you might call someone
Speaker 1: by mistake or they call you by mistake, and you
Speaker 1: can listen in on what they're doing. I can't, like
Speaker 1: I have I don't want to know. I don't want
Speaker 1: to know, you know, I'm like, what if they're saying
Speaker 1: something about me? And that's why the voice got no.
Speaker 1: I don't want to know la la la la laud
Speaker 1: rather not know but you.
Speaker 3: But you do always know. And with this particule person I,
Speaker 3: when I first met her, I didn't trust her and
Speaker 3: I should have just went gone with my first instinct.
Speaker 1: Interesting out louder, You always know, do you? How do
Speaker 1: you deal with a friend's betrayal? It's a big, big
Speaker 1: deal in our worlds. We'd love to hear from you,
Speaker 1: how loud as. That is all we have time for
Speaker 1: this Monday. We have as usual, been all over the place.
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here with us. Today we are
Speaker 1: pulling the lucky out louder who wins the books? So
Speaker 1: on Wednesday we'll be able to.
Speaker 3: Tell you who.
Speaker 2: Yay.
Speaker 1: Until then, we'll see you tomorrow. Bye bye. Mamma Mere
Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we
Speaker 1: have recorded this podcast.