WEBVTT - Tia Levings Escaped A Trad Wife Cult 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:14.205 You're listening to a mom and me a podcast. Mama 0:00:14.245 --> 0:00:16.965 Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that 0:00:17.005 --> 0:00:18.525 this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:18.845 --> 0:00:21.125 I heard a voice in my head, in my mind, 0:00:21.165 --> 0:00:23.605 in my heart that said run, and he had gone 0:00:23.605 --> 0:00:25.685 to his office to get his gun. So if I 0:00:25.765 --> 0:00:28.445 had stayed, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, 0:00:29.005 --> 0:00:30.085 and we drove. 0:00:29.885 --> 0:00:33.285 Away from Mamma Maya, you're listening to no filter and 0:00:33.325 --> 0:00:37.765 I'm mea Friedman. When I was a teenage girl, I 0:00:37.845 --> 0:00:41.285 was kissing boys and dating, and I was hanging with 0:00:41.285 --> 0:00:44.245 my friends. I was working at Woolly's, and I was 0:00:44.325 --> 0:00:46.605 desperately trying to get a fake ID so that I 0:00:46.605 --> 0:00:50.405 could sneak into clubs. Well, the usual teenage behavior, but 0:00:50.485 --> 0:00:53.605 I was also dreaming about my future, thinking about who 0:00:53.685 --> 0:00:56.245 I wanted to be when I grew up, what I 0:00:56.285 --> 0:00:58.725 wanted to do, what adventures I wanted to have out 0:00:58.725 --> 0:01:02.245 in the world when I left school. When Tia Levings 0:01:02.325 --> 0:01:05.165 was a teenage girl, she was preparing to serve a 0:01:05.245 --> 0:01:08.325 husband that she hadn't even met yet. Because Tina was 0:01:08.365 --> 0:01:11.765 brought up as a Christian fundamentalist, where being a trad 0:01:11.845 --> 0:01:15.645 wife was the only option for girls, a marriage with strict, 0:01:15.805 --> 0:01:18.645 old fashioned gender roles where the man was the boss 0:01:18.885 --> 0:01:22.285 and the woman served him. And that's exactly what she did. 0:01:22.725 --> 0:01:26.125 Around the time Tia got married in the early two thousands, 0:01:26.725 --> 0:01:30.725 the whole trad wife lifestylethough, wasn't called that then. It 0:01:30.845 --> 0:01:33.725 was been glorified on TV around the world by a 0:01:33.765 --> 0:01:37.285 show called nineteen Kids in Counting. You might remember it. 0:01:37.285 --> 0:01:40.245 It was about the Dugger family, the parents, Michelle and 0:01:40.325 --> 0:01:44.245 Jim Bob. They were also Christian fundamentalists like Tea and 0:01:44.285 --> 0:01:47.045 the community where she grew up. They wore old fashioned 0:01:47.085 --> 0:01:50.605 clothes and they chopped their own wood, and they homeschooled 0:01:50.605 --> 0:01:53.725 all their children. They had so many children. It was 0:01:53.965 --> 0:01:57.405 kind of fascinating to watch. But what we've since learned 0:01:57.765 --> 0:02:00.485 is that there were some really dark things going on 0:02:00.605 --> 0:02:04.605 in that house among the Duggers, and Tea experienced similar 0:02:04.645 --> 0:02:09.165 things in her own tradwife marriage. She barely escaped from 0:02:09.205 --> 0:02:11.965 that marriage with her life. She had to grab her 0:02:12.085 --> 0:02:16.005 children and flee in the middle of the night. Tea's 0:02:16.005 --> 0:02:21.365 story is a story about survival, indoctrination, fundamentalism, but it's 0:02:21.365 --> 0:02:24.845 also a story about marketing and how trad wives aren't 0:02:24.885 --> 0:02:28.925 just a quirky trend on Instagram or a funny reality show. 0:02:29.645 --> 0:02:31.765 This is why Tea has written a book about her 0:02:31.845 --> 0:02:34.725 trad life and why she wants you to hear her 0:02:34.725 --> 0:02:40.085 story as the former trad wife who got away. Tea 0:02:40.125 --> 0:02:40.725 are welcome. 0:02:41.205 --> 0:02:42.645 Thank you so much for having me. 0:02:43.045 --> 0:02:44.965 You start your story in nineteen eighty four when your 0:02:45.005 --> 0:02:49.365 family moved from Michigan to Florida. Talk to me about 0:02:49.365 --> 0:02:52.725 your early years in the way that your family changed 0:02:52.805 --> 0:02:54.445 when you made that move to Florida. 0:02:54.845 --> 0:02:57.165 When I was ten, we moved to Jacksonville, Florida, and 0:02:57.285 --> 0:03:00.045 my parents wanted to give us a good childhood, a 0:03:00.085 --> 0:03:03.605 protected childhood, a happy one. And in Jacksonville, the message 0:03:03.645 --> 0:03:05.525 was all over the city that the best way to 0:03:05.525 --> 0:03:07.445 do that was to join the biggest church in town. 0:03:08.045 --> 0:03:11.165 So it was a Southern Baptist megachurch. We had thirty 0:03:11.165 --> 0:03:14.325 five hundred members at that time, and then it quickly 0:03:14.365 --> 0:03:17.085 grew to ten thousand, and then twenty thousand, and by 0:03:17.125 --> 0:03:20.165 the time I graduated high school, our sanctuary sat over 0:03:20.205 --> 0:03:22.925 ten thousand people. I was there six days a week. 0:03:23.045 --> 0:03:25.325 It was a lot of fun. I would not have 0:03:25.405 --> 0:03:28.445 pointed to a lot of it as being particularly traumatic 0:03:28.605 --> 0:03:33.125 or problematic. I was being systematically groomed and conditioned to 0:03:33.845 --> 0:03:39.045 self subjugate and self gaslight and cooperate with an authoritarian model. 0:03:39.365 --> 0:03:41.245 But I didn't know that. I knew that I was 0:03:41.445 --> 0:03:45.645 just having this Christian evangelical experience that had a lot 0:03:45.685 --> 0:03:48.485 of money and privilege attached to it, and I didn't 0:03:48.485 --> 0:03:51.125 know any different. I talk about this sometimes like a 0:03:51.165 --> 0:03:53.805 culture within a culture, and it's based on the verse 0:03:53.805 --> 0:03:56.285 in the Bible that says be in the world, but 0:03:56.405 --> 0:03:59.645 not of it, And so we really were practicing a 0:03:59.725 --> 0:04:03.485 parallel Christian culture in the world, but not engaging with 0:04:03.525 --> 0:04:07.965 the world, not informing our worldviews, not growing and into adults. 0:04:08.005 --> 0:04:10.765 We were growing to prepare to be Christian wives and mothers. 0:04:10.805 --> 0:04:14.005 And that is all. That was my second ten years. 0:04:14.285 --> 0:04:15.485 I got married at nineteen. 0:04:15.845 --> 0:04:19.805 You call it a cult without wolves, which is really 0:04:19.805 --> 0:04:23.805 interesting because by that I assume you may it's hiding 0:04:23.845 --> 0:04:27.165 in plain side. You talked about it's a megachurch, so 0:04:27.205 --> 0:04:30.885 it's not just like a fringe few kind of people 0:04:30.965 --> 0:04:34.125 meeting in a basement. It is like literally tens of 0:04:34.165 --> 0:04:39.165 thousands of people. What is the IBLP. Is it Gothard 0:04:39.365 --> 0:04:40.485 or Goddard. 0:04:40.525 --> 0:04:43.605 Well, Gothard is how we say it, but it's God Guard, 0:04:43.725 --> 0:04:46.485 which is just so funny to me. Bill Gothard started 0:04:46.525 --> 0:04:50.325 the Institute of Basic Life Principles the IBLP. For sure, 0:04:50.485 --> 0:04:54.005 there's a headquarters in Australia, there's a headquarters in America. 0:04:54.125 --> 0:04:57.885 His model of growth cross denominational lines in that he 0:04:58.005 --> 0:05:01.325 taught biblical principles, so Christians from churches all over would 0:05:01.365 --> 0:05:03.645 come and then they would be sent back out to 0:05:03.685 --> 0:05:08.645 their churches to proselytize within their congregations for this stricter 0:05:08.845 --> 0:05:12.245 form of Christianity. If you're familiar with the Dugger family 0:05:12.365 --> 0:05:15.645 on TLC's Nineteen Kids and counting, that's the most visible 0:05:15.645 --> 0:05:18.805 family of the Gothard system. I was in Shiny Happy 0:05:18.845 --> 0:05:21.805 People last year and that did a big expose on 0:05:21.845 --> 0:05:24.725 the IBLP and how it works and how it has 0:05:24.885 --> 0:05:28.125 gone into because of its agenda, it's gone into every 0:05:28.365 --> 0:05:32.925 branch of government and the entire evangelical movement. That's why 0:05:32.925 --> 0:05:34.885 I call it the cult without walls, because we were 0:05:35.365 --> 0:05:39.085 part of this high control group with very strict criteria 0:05:39.245 --> 0:05:43.085 that meets all of the cult definition, but it doesn't 0:05:43.125 --> 0:05:45.965 have a building, and so people identify with cults is 0:05:45.965 --> 0:05:48.525 like it's a place you go and it's a single 0:05:48.565 --> 0:05:51.765 person you follow, and that is not how high control 0:05:51.805 --> 0:05:54.165 religion works. I believe it does meet all of the 0:05:54.205 --> 0:05:57.725 cult criteria. And if you listen to survivors, you hear 0:05:57.765 --> 0:06:02.445 from multiple backgrounds, all kinds of different evangelical sex and denominations, 0:06:02.525 --> 0:06:04.245 with very similar experiences. 0:06:04.645 --> 0:06:10.645 What's the role of the Duggers in the Ibopa and Gothard? 0:06:10.725 --> 0:06:13.285 You know, as the leader of that church, they were 0:06:13.445 --> 0:06:17.805 kind of reputation ambassadors. They had some influence in sway, 0:06:17.885 --> 0:06:21.205 but they were one of star families because of the 0:06:21.285 --> 0:06:23.645 number of children that they had and their high visibility 0:06:23.725 --> 0:06:28.725 and their political involvement. But really their role was lifestyle evangelism. 0:06:28.845 --> 0:06:31.405 So their purpose was to show the world what a 0:06:31.445 --> 0:06:34.245 great lifestyle this is, so that people will feel attracted 0:06:34.245 --> 0:06:36.485 to it and choose it. And it worked in a 0:06:36.485 --> 0:06:40.325 big influential way in America. Plenty of people watched that 0:06:40.405 --> 0:06:42.885 show just to watch the car accident and the crazies, 0:06:42.925 --> 0:06:46.405 but plenty more thought it was an enviable way to live. 0:06:46.525 --> 0:06:49.365 And the trad lifestyle that we find ourselves in today 0:06:50.045 --> 0:06:53.285 is in large part influenced by fundamentalism on TV. 0:06:53.685 --> 0:06:57.005 So while you were preparing for womanhood, talk to me 0:06:57.085 --> 0:07:01.725 about your teenagees and what influence the IBLP and Gothard 0:07:02.005 --> 0:07:02.565 had on you. 0:07:03.205 --> 0:07:05.605 So it was an invisible influence for me in my 0:07:05.685 --> 0:07:08.245 high school years because I didn't know about him. His 0:07:08.405 --> 0:07:10.645 people were around me, and I was observing them, and 0:07:10.685 --> 0:07:13.125 I was learning all their special rules, and I was 0:07:13.165 --> 0:07:16.045 observing that there was this way in our church to 0:07:16.085 --> 0:07:19.005 be a special kind of Christian, a holier Christian, somebody 0:07:19.045 --> 0:07:21.285 who was more devout and more sold out and serious 0:07:21.325 --> 0:07:24.445 in their faith, and that it had a lifestyle projection 0:07:24.605 --> 0:07:27.005 in that they wore different clothes, and they had lots 0:07:27.005 --> 0:07:29.845 of children, and they decided to homeschool their children, and 0:07:29.925 --> 0:07:32.605 so we had a lot of respect and reverence for them. 0:07:32.965 --> 0:07:35.085 Not everyone wanted to live that way, but it seemed 0:07:35.165 --> 0:07:37.845 very much like an option you could take. It wasn't 0:07:38.005 --> 0:07:41.245 a serious pursuit of mine until I was married and 0:07:41.405 --> 0:07:44.005 very quickly a young mother, and I was in abuse 0:07:44.045 --> 0:07:46.165 and I needed to keep my baby quiet at night, 0:07:46.605 --> 0:07:49.005 and I turned to an older mother in that system 0:07:49.125 --> 0:07:53.165 to teach me how to help my baby sleep but 0:07:53.285 --> 0:07:55.565 also keep the home. It's called keepers of the home, 0:07:55.605 --> 0:07:58.325 and so I wanted to be a godly Proverbs thirty 0:07:58.365 --> 0:08:01.085 one woman and be good. You know what I was 0:08:01.085 --> 0:08:03.205 trying to be, which was just a Christian wife and mother. 0:08:03.605 --> 0:08:06.965 You talk about in your book that at fourteen, when 0:08:07.085 --> 0:08:12.645 most young girls at the mall and shopping and maybe 0:08:12.685 --> 0:08:17.005 getting on Instagram and posting selfies, your job was to 0:08:17.125 --> 0:08:19.645 prepare at age fourteen to be a Christian wife and 0:08:19.725 --> 0:08:23.005 mother within the church. What did that preparation actually look like? 0:08:23.685 --> 0:08:27.205 Hell, that's a great question, because we weren't actually preparing 0:08:27.245 --> 0:08:29.365 to be wives. And if they had been teaching us 0:08:29.725 --> 0:08:32.205 here's what you might practically face as a wife, I 0:08:32.285 --> 0:08:35.205 might have had some more tools under my belt. Instead, 0:08:35.245 --> 0:08:37.085 it was looked like a lot of what you don't do, 0:08:37.525 --> 0:08:41.525 very heavily focused on purity culture and remaining a virgin 0:08:42.325 --> 0:08:43.405 not tempting men. 0:08:43.685 --> 0:08:47.605 What's purity culture for someone who's not familiar with purity culture. 0:08:47.925 --> 0:08:51.365 Purity culture is an entire culture that's built around keeping 0:08:51.405 --> 0:08:55.485 you sexually pure. So it includes modesty so that you're 0:08:55.565 --> 0:08:58.125 learning how to dress in a very modest manner that 0:08:58.165 --> 0:09:02.005 won't tempt men. It also includes your behavior, your speech 0:09:02.285 --> 0:09:05.525 being modest in all ways. We call it purity culture here, 0:09:05.565 --> 0:09:08.525 because this is the idea that your behavior can make 0:09:08.525 --> 0:09:11.365 you impure and that you are trying to stay pure 0:09:11.445 --> 0:09:15.005 so that you can be an undefiled bride for your husband. 0:09:15.485 --> 0:09:20.005 I want to ask about modesty, because what does modesty 0:09:20.125 --> 0:09:23.565 actually mean in this context, because for most people, modesty 0:09:23.645 --> 0:09:28.325 means you don't go around perhaps begniting yourself. You have humility, 0:09:28.805 --> 0:09:32.245 but that's not what this kind of modesty in religious 0:09:32.245 --> 0:09:34.845 fundamentalism means. Can you explain what it is? 0:09:35.205 --> 0:09:38.765 That's the big irony is that modesty, especially in scriptures, 0:09:38.845 --> 0:09:40.765 has a lot to do with your bearing and behavior. 0:09:41.245 --> 0:09:44.925 But what it's become an evangelical culture is a hyperfixation 0:09:45.085 --> 0:09:47.245 on the length of a girl's skirt and whether or 0:09:47.285 --> 0:09:50.605 not her brasstrap is showing or Bill Gothard has a 0:09:50.645 --> 0:09:54.165 teaching called eye traps. So these are the way clothing 0:09:54.245 --> 0:09:57.285 is designed to draw your eye to say, a slender 0:09:57.325 --> 0:10:01.205 waistline or cleavage or something that might attract a man's attention, 0:10:01.365 --> 0:10:05.365 and that is ruled as immodest clothing. Your behavior can 0:10:05.405 --> 0:10:08.045 be immodest, and that you can be loud or laugh 0:10:08.165 --> 0:10:11.045 too loud, stand out in any way you know that 0:10:11.085 --> 0:10:13.445 can become a thing. But it's all external. 0:10:13.805 --> 0:10:16.645 Is it about sexuality? Because it's at an age. You know, 0:10:16.725 --> 0:10:19.165 a fourteen year old girl, she's growing breast, she's menstruating, 0:10:19.205 --> 0:10:21.205 she's suddenly aware that men are looking at her in 0:10:21.245 --> 0:10:26.045 a different way. She's maybe feeling hormones, she's maybe feeling things. 0:10:26.445 --> 0:10:28.805 In fact, she no doubt is all of the things. 0:10:29.525 --> 0:10:31.605 How are you taught to interpret that that all of 0:10:31.645 --> 0:10:34.885 that was dangerous and that it was sinful, and that 0:10:34.965 --> 0:10:39.485 it was your job to protect men from the sin 0:10:39.565 --> 0:10:40.165 of you. 0:10:41.005 --> 0:10:45.045 Yes, it's completely internalized. The actual scripture says that if 0:10:45.045 --> 0:10:47.125 a man lusts, he should pluck his eyes out and 0:10:47.325 --> 0:10:50.525 never mentions what the girl is doing. But we flipped it, 0:10:50.765 --> 0:10:54.125 the evangelical culture flipped it. It was all focused on 0:10:54.605 --> 0:10:57.365 first how we were addressing and being, but then eventually 0:10:57.445 --> 0:11:02.925 our very worth was sinful, distracting, dangerous, tempting. I interpreted 0:11:02.965 --> 0:11:06.165 the things I was feeling as a sexualized young person, 0:11:06.605 --> 0:11:09.725 those were my temptations to sin and step out of 0:11:09.805 --> 0:11:13.805 the will of God. So constantly suppressing any urges or 0:11:13.845 --> 0:11:16.805 attractions or desires so that I wouldn't feel them. It's 0:11:16.885 --> 0:11:19.085 very important to not feel them so that you can 0:11:19.525 --> 0:11:22.565 remain pure, and then it's supposed to magically turn on 0:11:22.925 --> 0:11:25.725 when you're married, which we know now it doesn't. For 0:11:25.765 --> 0:11:28.485 a lot of women's sexual dysfunction is very, very high 0:11:28.565 --> 0:11:31.005 because our nervous system does not acclimate that way. That's 0:11:31.005 --> 0:11:32.205 not how the human body works. 0:11:32.485 --> 0:11:35.165 Did you have sex before your wedding at nineteen? 0:11:35.485 --> 0:11:38.565 I had an early sexual assault when I was thirteen 0:11:38.605 --> 0:11:41.645 that I interpreted as maybe my first kiss. I wasn't 0:11:41.685 --> 0:11:44.445 really sure. I didn't have anybody to talk to about that, 0:11:44.805 --> 0:11:48.765 and I had one kiss with a boyfriend otherwise, but no, 0:11:49.045 --> 0:11:51.845 did not have any real experience before my wedding night. 0:11:52.485 --> 0:11:55.565 After this brag, tea gets married at nineteen and her 0:11:55.565 --> 0:11:59.045 life is about to change dramatically, and then she realizes 0:11:59.365 --> 0:12:02.045 she was in danger really from the first night of 0:12:02.125 --> 0:12:14.245 that marriage. How did you meet your husband? 0:12:14.445 --> 0:12:16.725 Yes, So this big mega church I go to, or 0:12:16.805 --> 0:12:19.645 went to, is Jacksonville support City. So we have a 0:12:19.725 --> 0:12:21.805 naval port and he was a sailor that came in 0:12:21.845 --> 0:12:24.925 on a ship and attended our navy ministry. We had 0:12:24.925 --> 0:12:28.005 this big military ministry to reach the sailors for Christ. 0:12:28.605 --> 0:12:31.045 They come in for you know, community and to meet girls. 0:12:31.165 --> 0:12:33.325 So that's what happened. I went to a hay ride 0:12:33.365 --> 0:12:35.685 and he was there, and we met at a mixer 0:12:36.085 --> 0:12:39.325 near Christmas time. About four weeks later we were engaged. 0:12:39.765 --> 0:12:42.605 I didn't really know him, but he had decided I 0:12:42.685 --> 0:12:44.485 was the girl he wanted to marry, and I was 0:12:44.605 --> 0:12:46.445 in pursuit of a husband at that time. I was 0:12:46.565 --> 0:12:49.365 very open to this is the only thing I can 0:12:49.405 --> 0:12:51.245 do with my life is to be a Christian wife 0:12:51.245 --> 0:12:53.205 and mother, so I need a husband to do that. 0:12:53.725 --> 0:12:56.445 I was primed and ready to receive whoever said they 0:12:56.485 --> 0:12:57.845 were God's will for my life. 0:12:58.085 --> 0:13:00.925 Did having a job or a career ever occur to 0:13:01.005 --> 0:13:03.005 you or was that ever presented to you as a 0:13:03.045 --> 0:13:06.205 possibility When you say an agent girl, it's. 0:13:06.085 --> 0:13:08.965 A grief, you know. I share in the book how 0:13:09.005 --> 0:13:12.845 I learned to split myself. I had dreams and desires 0:13:12.845 --> 0:13:15.445 and opportunities and talents, and I had to learn to 0:13:15.485 --> 0:13:18.285 suppress them and stuff them down. They were not in 0:13:18.325 --> 0:13:20.765 accordance with what I was being told was the only 0:13:20.845 --> 0:13:25.005 acceptable outcome for my life, and it was unbearable to 0:13:25.805 --> 0:13:28.885 feel the loss of them. So I learned to stuff 0:13:28.925 --> 0:13:31.005 them away. And there was a season where I tried 0:13:31.045 --> 0:13:34.045 to I wanted to be an artist, and I thought, oh, 0:13:34.085 --> 0:13:35.925 if I'm an artist for God, I can do it. 0:13:36.045 --> 0:13:38.005 That's how I'll get through this. And that didn't work 0:13:38.045 --> 0:13:40.685 because I was chosen for marriage first and it just 0:13:40.845 --> 0:13:41.445 didn't work. 0:13:41.725 --> 0:13:44.765 You took about being chosen. Did you want to marry 0:13:44.805 --> 0:13:46.965 this guy? Was he nice? Did you like him? 0:13:47.405 --> 0:13:50.525 I didn't really know him. I did not feel attracted 0:13:50.525 --> 0:13:52.965 to him. I know in hindsight that if we had 0:13:53.005 --> 0:13:57.005 given it natural time, you know, to unfold, he would 0:13:57.045 --> 0:14:00.245 have shown his true character. He had behavior tendencies that 0:14:00.365 --> 0:14:04.165 were masked, carefully masked under charm, and that charm would 0:14:04.205 --> 0:14:06.445 have fallen away if we had given it more time, 0:14:06.485 --> 0:14:08.805 which he knew, and that's why he needed to secure 0:14:08.805 --> 0:14:12.085 me so quickly. So I was locked in very quickly 0:14:12.165 --> 0:14:14.405 and did not feel like I really had a choice 0:14:14.485 --> 0:14:16.805 by that point. You don't believe you can say no 0:14:16.925 --> 0:14:19.045 to a man or to God, and they are one 0:14:19.085 --> 0:14:19.525 and the same. 0:14:20.005 --> 0:14:22.285 So when he decided that he wanted to marry you, 0:14:23.365 --> 0:14:24.925 was it on an option to say no? Or you 0:14:24.965 --> 0:14:27.045 were like, yeah, I need a husband, Like why not? 0:14:27.645 --> 0:14:29.485 It's a great question, because I just feel for a 0:14:29.565 --> 0:14:33.365 little nineteen year old me who yeah, really didn't spend 0:14:33.365 --> 0:14:36.725 that much time thinking that. I think I project onto 0:14:36.765 --> 0:14:40.485 her that she wanted to say no, but I think 0:14:40.725 --> 0:14:43.685 that she actually didn't spend that much time deliberating. She'd 0:14:43.725 --> 0:14:46.085 been taught that you were going to say yes, and 0:14:46.125 --> 0:14:48.205 that's how you're going to know it's right. If you're asked, 0:14:48.245 --> 0:14:51.805 then you know it's right. And I was very practiced 0:14:51.845 --> 0:14:56.085 at shutting down my signals, my arguments, any resistance I had, 0:14:56.485 --> 0:15:00.405 and I instead funneled that energy into talking myself into it. 0:15:00.685 --> 0:15:04.045 Tell me about your wedding day. Did you like it? 0:15:04.045 --> 0:15:08.165 It's magical? I did love it. My parents went all out. 0:15:08.525 --> 0:15:11.365 My mom's just seems dress. She spent so many hours 0:15:11.365 --> 0:15:13.685 on my dresses and my bridesmaid's dresses. And we had 0:15:13.685 --> 0:15:17.045 a very traditional wedding, and it was near Christmas time 0:15:17.125 --> 0:15:19.605 the following year, and so it was just I took 0:15:19.605 --> 0:15:23.085 advantage of the whole season feeling festive, and we had 0:15:23.085 --> 0:15:25.805 a horse drawn carriage, and I had a cape, and 0:15:25.925 --> 0:15:28.765 it was romantic and candlelight and really beautiful. I mean, 0:15:28.765 --> 0:15:32.885 it was not smooth and without issue, but I was 0:15:33.005 --> 0:15:36.685 overwhelmingly really happy, and I felt like I was celebrating 0:15:36.765 --> 0:15:39.205 this launch into the rest of my life. 0:15:39.445 --> 0:15:41.565 You say you had a very traditional wedding. Before you 0:15:41.565 --> 0:15:44.085 walk down the aisle, your dad was like, are you ready, 0:15:44.125 --> 0:15:45.285 and you said, I can't see. 0:15:45.885 --> 0:15:50.285 Yeah. My veil was heavy chiffon. I wanted it to 0:15:50.365 --> 0:15:54.125 drape differently than the bridal tool. Bridle tool is very puffy, 0:15:54.405 --> 0:15:57.485 and I wanted a romantic drape. So I picked this fabric. 0:15:57.565 --> 0:16:00.325 It looked gorgeous and photos and it looked gorgeous by day, 0:16:00.645 --> 0:16:02.565 but we were standing in candlelight, and so when we 0:16:02.565 --> 0:16:05.165 flipped it over my head, I couldn't see anything. It 0:16:05.205 --> 0:16:08.285 was a shrouded woman and I had to walk the 0:16:08.325 --> 0:16:09.365 aisle blind. 0:16:09.365 --> 0:16:10.965 Which was very symbolic, wasn't it. 0:16:11.325 --> 0:16:13.125 We ended up being quite metaphorical. 0:16:13.245 --> 0:16:18.165 Yes, your wedding night. What did you know going into 0:16:18.205 --> 0:16:20.245 it about what was going to happen on your wedding night? 0:16:20.765 --> 0:16:23.365 I knew that we would have sex. I did not 0:16:23.525 --> 0:16:26.005 fully understand what sex was. I knew there would be 0:16:26.485 --> 0:16:30.085 insertion of anatomy and that it would hurt, but that 0:16:30.565 --> 0:16:34.125 it would be romantic and loving and God designed, and 0:16:34.205 --> 0:16:36.925 so it would be okay. That I would be held in, 0:16:37.005 --> 0:16:40.525 caressed and cared for. We had a book by ed Wheat. 0:16:40.605 --> 0:16:43.885 It was called intended for pleasure. And then also like 0:16:43.925 --> 0:16:46.565 this is what they tell young fiances. We had been 0:16:46.565 --> 0:16:49.365 in an engaged class and had premarital counseling through the church, 0:16:49.485 --> 0:16:52.925 and so there was no real sex education or instruction 0:16:53.165 --> 0:16:56.485 or transparency. But they did, you know, set us up. 0:16:56.605 --> 0:17:00.245 We also read Elizabeth Elliott's Passion and Purity, which talks 0:17:00.285 --> 0:17:02.925 a lot about remaining pure until your wedding night so 0:17:02.965 --> 0:17:05.765 that you can give yourself as a spotless woman to 0:17:05.925 --> 0:17:08.845 your husband and you will be rewarded with great pleasure 0:17:08.965 --> 0:17:14.085 and married passion, and it will be beautiful and procreative 0:17:14.725 --> 0:17:17.085 and song of solemn and love of joy. That's a 0:17:17.605 --> 0:17:19.765 book in the Bible that talks about sexual pleasure. 0:17:20.165 --> 0:17:22.725 Sounds awesome. Is that how it went down. 0:17:22.805 --> 0:17:25.965 That's not how it went down. What actually happened is 0:17:26.005 --> 0:17:28.325 that I had three sexual assaults on my wedding night 0:17:28.525 --> 0:17:31.605 and no language to describe that or a way to 0:17:31.645 --> 0:17:35.285 ask for help or explain. And a week later I 0:17:35.405 --> 0:17:38.085 ended up with a raging infection and a doctor who 0:17:38.445 --> 0:17:41.485 shed light on the fact that there had been battery 0:17:41.605 --> 0:17:45.885 involved and violence. But I really did not understand what 0:17:46.005 --> 0:17:48.285 happened on my wedding night until a good fourteen years 0:17:48.365 --> 0:17:52.445 later when I was finally given language for marital rape 0:17:52.525 --> 0:17:53.725 and what consent means. 0:17:54.125 --> 0:17:56.965 I'm so sorry that that happened to you. It's shocking, 0:17:56.965 --> 0:17:58.405 and when you talk about it in the book, it 0:17:58.485 --> 0:18:00.725 is so shocking. I don't want to make you relive it. 0:18:01.765 --> 0:18:04.725 But was there a part of you that thought, oh, 0:18:05.125 --> 0:18:07.885 this doesn't seem right. It sounds like maybe there there 0:18:07.965 --> 0:18:10.525 was no consent because you you his property as well. 0:18:10.565 --> 0:18:13.125 Consent wasn't something you even knew about, was it not? 0:18:13.245 --> 0:18:15.205 At all? That is not a word I knew until 0:18:15.485 --> 0:18:18.725 I was out of this marriage. Part of that is 0:18:18.765 --> 0:18:21.325 just culturally, we didn't have very much of a conversation 0:18:21.445 --> 0:18:24.725 around consent. The therapeutic language that we have available to 0:18:24.805 --> 0:18:28.645 us today has evolved because survivors and because of researchers 0:18:28.685 --> 0:18:31.485 and therapists. At this point, we're in nineteen ninety six. 0:18:31.485 --> 0:18:33.085 In the story, I did not have that. 0:18:33.565 --> 0:18:36.565 What does the term quiverful mean? Oh? 0:18:36.605 --> 0:18:39.285 Okay, So this is based on a verse in the Bible. 0:18:40.045 --> 0:18:44.005 It's relating children to weapons, and if you're going into war, 0:18:44.125 --> 0:18:47.685 you want lots of weapons. So the verse says weapons 0:18:47.725 --> 0:18:50.765 in the hand of a warrior are children unto the Lord, 0:18:50.925 --> 0:18:53.125 happy is the man that has his quiver full of them? 0:18:53.605 --> 0:18:56.645 And so that is metaphor that child is an arrow, 0:18:56.725 --> 0:18:59.005 and you want a quiver full of arrows for your 0:18:59.045 --> 0:19:03.605 culture war against the West and against secularism and democracy, 0:19:03.685 --> 0:19:07.165 everything that the Christian nationalists and the dominionists are against 0:19:07.725 --> 0:19:09.765 in the Bible. Of course, this was the Psalm, so 0:19:09.925 --> 0:19:12.205 there was an actual war that they were talking about 0:19:12.245 --> 0:19:14.725 with the weaponry that they had available in Bible times. 0:19:15.125 --> 0:19:19.525 The quiverful mindset in the evangelical movement was promoted through 0:19:19.685 --> 0:19:22.925 Bill Gothard's institute. He did not author that. It's just 0:19:23.005 --> 0:19:27.725 what they latched onto because dominionism is their underlying theology. 0:19:27.765 --> 0:19:32.285 They want to dominate the world's government through population, so 0:19:32.925 --> 0:19:36.085 they want to have as many babies as possible without. 0:19:35.765 --> 0:19:39.445 Stop, which was turned into such a kind of a funny, 0:19:39.525 --> 0:19:43.205 quirky joke on fifteen in Counting or sixteen on counting 0:19:43.285 --> 0:19:47.045 with great doggers. But from what you say, there's something 0:19:47.165 --> 0:19:52.605 a lot more insidious about it. It's literally repopulating the 0:19:52.645 --> 0:19:57.765 world with a particular type of fundamental religious belief. 0:19:58.365 --> 0:20:02.965 They want white Christian babies, They want to dominate elections 0:20:02.965 --> 0:20:06.685 and population with an ideology that is not pro democracy. 0:20:06.725 --> 0:20:10.125 It is not equality or freedom. It ejected five's children 0:20:10.165 --> 0:20:14.045 because it reduces them to a number. And there's a 0:20:14.205 --> 0:20:17.445 host of lifestyle accommodations that come with that kind of 0:20:17.685 --> 0:20:22.245 backwardness that modern society would ordinarily reject. 0:20:22.765 --> 0:20:25.045 You were careful to say in your book that your 0:20:25.085 --> 0:20:28.645 world was not fringe. It was very mainstream, and that's 0:20:28.685 --> 0:20:31.245 how it thrives. Can you tell me more about that? 0:20:31.645 --> 0:20:33.565 Yeah, And the Duggers again are going to serve as 0:20:33.605 --> 0:20:36.605 a really good example. This is a lifestyle. When we 0:20:36.645 --> 0:20:38.485 talk about it, the tendency is to say that it 0:20:38.525 --> 0:20:41.565 was fringe and extreme, except TLC put it on TV 0:20:41.685 --> 0:20:44.965 and it had many years of seasons and lots of 0:20:45.005 --> 0:20:49.885 money and millions of viewers. They promote themselves as a 0:20:50.165 --> 0:20:53.805 innocence and a wholesome aesthetic. That's very appealing and attractive 0:20:53.885 --> 0:20:56.925 because who doesn't love rows and rows of beautiful, obedient 0:20:57.005 --> 0:21:00.965 children and sweet babies. And the women involved want motherhood. 0:21:01.125 --> 0:21:04.685 I always say fundamentalism exploits the thing you wanted for yourself. 0:21:04.725 --> 0:21:08.005 I wanted motherhood. The mothers I knew all wanted motherhood. 0:21:08.485 --> 0:21:11.725 And it's the very vehicle that they are reduced by 0:21:11.885 --> 0:21:13.565 until sometimes the point of death. 0:21:13.925 --> 0:21:16.245 You say sometimes until the point of death. Do you 0:21:16.325 --> 0:21:19.365 mean that they are encouraged to keep having pregnancies, Because 0:21:19.685 --> 0:21:22.045 I thought this for a long time actually about Michelle Duggerh. 0:21:22.045 --> 0:21:25.605 I'm like, it's not safe. She'd had cesareans, she'd had complications, 0:21:26.165 --> 0:21:28.365