1 00:00:10,405 --> 00:00:14,205 Speaker 1: You're listening to a mom and me a podcast. Mama 2 00:00:14,245 --> 00:00:16,965 Speaker 1: Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that 3 00:00:17,005 --> 00:00:18,525 Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:18,845 --> 00:00:21,125 Speaker 2: I heard a voice in my head, in my mind, 5 00:00:21,165 --> 00:00:23,605 Speaker 2: in my heart that said run, and he had gone 6 00:00:23,605 --> 00:00:25,685 Speaker 2: to his office to get his gun. So if I 7 00:00:25,765 --> 00:00:28,445 Speaker 2: had stayed, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, 8 00:00:29,005 --> 00:00:30,085 Speaker 2: and we drove. 9 00:00:29,885 --> 00:00:33,285 Speaker 1: Away from Mamma Maya, you're listening to no filter and 10 00:00:33,325 --> 00:00:37,765 Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman. When I was a teenage girl, I 11 00:00:37,845 --> 00:00:41,285 Speaker 1: was kissing boys and dating, and I was hanging with 12 00:00:41,285 --> 00:00:44,245 Speaker 1: my friends. I was working at Woolly's, and I was 13 00:00:44,325 --> 00:00:46,605 Speaker 1: desperately trying to get a fake ID so that I 14 00:00:46,605 --> 00:00:50,405 Speaker 1: could sneak into clubs. Well, the usual teenage behavior, but 15 00:00:50,485 --> 00:00:53,605 Speaker 1: I was also dreaming about my future, thinking about who 16 00:00:53,685 --> 00:00:56,245 Speaker 1: I wanted to be when I grew up, what I 17 00:00:56,285 --> 00:00:58,725 Speaker 1: wanted to do, what adventures I wanted to have out 18 00:00:58,725 --> 00:01:02,245 Speaker 1: in the world when I left school. When Tia Levings 19 00:01:02,325 --> 00:01:05,165 Speaker 1: was a teenage girl, she was preparing to serve a 20 00:01:05,245 --> 00:01:08,325 Speaker 1: husband that she hadn't even met yet. Because Tina was 21 00:01:08,365 --> 00:01:11,765 Speaker 1: brought up as a Christian fundamentalist, where being a trad 22 00:01:11,845 --> 00:01:15,645 Speaker 1: wife was the only option for girls, a marriage with strict, 23 00:01:15,805 --> 00:01:18,645 Speaker 1: old fashioned gender roles where the man was the boss 24 00:01:18,885 --> 00:01:22,285 Speaker 1: and the woman served him. And that's exactly what she did. 25 00:01:22,725 --> 00:01:26,125 Speaker 1: Around the time Tia got married in the early two thousands, 26 00:01:26,725 --> 00:01:30,725 Speaker 1: the whole trad wife lifestylethough, wasn't called that then. It 27 00:01:30,845 --> 00:01:33,725 Speaker 1: was been glorified on TV around the world by a 28 00:01:33,765 --> 00:01:37,285 Speaker 1: show called nineteen Kids in Counting. You might remember it. 29 00:01:37,285 --> 00:01:40,245 Speaker 1: It was about the Dugger family, the parents, Michelle and 30 00:01:40,325 --> 00:01:44,245 Speaker 1: Jim Bob. They were also Christian fundamentalists like Tea and 31 00:01:44,285 --> 00:01:47,045 Speaker 1: the community where she grew up. They wore old fashioned 32 00:01:47,085 --> 00:01:50,605 Speaker 1: clothes and they chopped their own wood, and they homeschooled 33 00:01:50,605 --> 00:01:53,725 Speaker 1: all their children. They had so many children. It was 34 00:01:53,965 --> 00:01:57,405 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating to watch. But what we've since learned 35 00:01:57,765 --> 00:02:00,485 Speaker 1: is that there were some really dark things going on 36 00:02:00,605 --> 00:02:04,605 Speaker 1: in that house among the Duggers, and Tea experienced similar 37 00:02:04,645 --> 00:02:09,165 Speaker 1: things in her own tradwife marriage. She barely escaped from 38 00:02:09,205 --> 00:02:11,965 Speaker 1: that marriage with her life. She had to grab her 39 00:02:12,085 --> 00:02:16,005 Speaker 1: children and flee in the middle of the night. Tea's 40 00:02:16,005 --> 00:02:21,365 Speaker 1: story is a story about survival, indoctrination, fundamentalism, but it's 41 00:02:21,365 --> 00:02:24,845 Speaker 1: also a story about marketing and how trad wives aren't 42 00:02:24,885 --> 00:02:28,925 Speaker 1: just a quirky trend on Instagram or a funny reality show. 43 00:02:29,645 --> 00:02:31,765 Speaker 1: This is why Tea has written a book about her 44 00:02:31,845 --> 00:02:34,725 Speaker 1: trad life and why she wants you to hear her 45 00:02:34,725 --> 00:02:40,085 Speaker 1: story as the former trad wife who got away. Tea 46 00:02:40,125 --> 00:02:40,725 Speaker 1: are welcome. 47 00:02:41,205 --> 00:02:42,645 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 48 00:02:43,045 --> 00:02:44,965 Speaker 1: You start your story in nineteen eighty four when your 49 00:02:45,005 --> 00:02:49,365 Speaker 1: family moved from Michigan to Florida. Talk to me about 50 00:02:49,365 --> 00:02:52,725 Speaker 1: your early years in the way that your family changed 51 00:02:52,805 --> 00:02:54,445 Speaker 1: when you made that move to Florida. 52 00:02:54,845 --> 00:02:57,165 Speaker 2: When I was ten, we moved to Jacksonville, Florida, and 53 00:02:57,285 --> 00:03:00,045 Speaker 2: my parents wanted to give us a good childhood, a 54 00:03:00,085 --> 00:03:03,605 Speaker 2: protected childhood, a happy one. And in Jacksonville, the message 55 00:03:03,645 --> 00:03:05,525 Speaker 2: was all over the city that the best way to 56 00:03:05,525 --> 00:03:07,445 Speaker 2: do that was to join the biggest church in town. 57 00:03:08,045 --> 00:03:11,165 Speaker 2: So it was a Southern Baptist megachurch. We had thirty 58 00:03:11,165 --> 00:03:14,325 Speaker 2: five hundred members at that time, and then it quickly 59 00:03:14,365 --> 00:03:17,085 Speaker 2: grew to ten thousand, and then twenty thousand, and by 60 00:03:17,125 --> 00:03:20,165 Speaker 2: the time I graduated high school, our sanctuary sat over 61 00:03:20,205 --> 00:03:22,925 Speaker 2: ten thousand people. I was there six days a week. 62 00:03:23,045 --> 00:03:25,325 Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun. I would not have 63 00:03:25,405 --> 00:03:28,445 Speaker 2: pointed to a lot of it as being particularly traumatic 64 00:03:28,605 --> 00:03:33,125 Speaker 2: or problematic. I was being systematically groomed and conditioned to 65 00:03:33,845 --> 00:03:39,045 Speaker 2: self subjugate and self gaslight and cooperate with an authoritarian model. 66 00:03:39,365 --> 00:03:41,245 Speaker 2: But I didn't know that. I knew that I was 67 00:03:41,445 --> 00:03:45,645 Speaker 2: just having this Christian evangelical experience that had a lot 68 00:03:45,685 --> 00:03:48,485 Speaker 2: of money and privilege attached to it, and I didn't 69 00:03:48,485 --> 00:03:51,125 Speaker 2: know any different. I talk about this sometimes like a 70 00:03:51,165 --> 00:03:53,805 Speaker 2: culture within a culture, and it's based on the verse 71 00:03:53,805 --> 00:03:56,285 Speaker 2: in the Bible that says be in the world, but 72 00:03:56,405 --> 00:03:59,645 Speaker 2: not of it, And so we really were practicing a 73 00:03:59,725 --> 00:04:03,485 Speaker 2: parallel Christian culture in the world, but not engaging with 74 00:04:03,525 --> 00:04:07,965 Speaker 2: the world, not informing our worldviews, not growing and into adults. 75 00:04:08,005 --> 00:04:10,765 Speaker 2: We were growing to prepare to be Christian wives and mothers. 76 00:04:10,805 --> 00:04:14,005 Speaker 2: And that is all. That was my second ten years. 77 00:04:14,285 --> 00:04:15,485 Speaker 2: I got married at nineteen. 78 00:04:15,845 --> 00:04:19,805 Speaker 1: You call it a cult without wolves, which is really 79 00:04:19,805 --> 00:04:23,805 Speaker 1: interesting because by that I assume you may it's hiding 80 00:04:23,845 --> 00:04:27,165 Speaker 1: in plain side. You talked about it's a megachurch, so 81 00:04:27,205 --> 00:04:30,885 Speaker 1: it's not just like a fringe few kind of people 82 00:04:30,965 --> 00:04:34,125 Speaker 1: meeting in a basement. It is like literally tens of 83 00:04:34,165 --> 00:04:39,165 Speaker 1: thousands of people. What is the IBLP. Is it Gothard 84 00:04:39,365 --> 00:04:40,485 Speaker 1: or Goddard. 85 00:04:40,525 --> 00:04:43,605 Speaker 2: Well, Gothard is how we say it, but it's God Guard, 86 00:04:43,725 --> 00:04:46,485 Speaker 2: which is just so funny to me. Bill Gothard started 87 00:04:46,525 --> 00:04:50,325 Speaker 2: the Institute of Basic Life Principles the IBLP. For sure, 88 00:04:50,485 --> 00:04:54,005 Speaker 2: there's a headquarters in Australia, there's a headquarters in America. 89 00:04:54,125 --> 00:04:57,885 Speaker 2: His model of growth cross denominational lines in that he 90 00:04:58,005 --> 00:05:01,325 Speaker 2: taught biblical principles, so Christians from churches all over would 91 00:05:01,365 --> 00:05:03,645 Speaker 2: come and then they would be sent back out to 92 00:05:03,685 --> 00:05:08,645 Speaker 2: their churches to proselytize within their congregations for this stricter 93 00:05:08,845 --> 00:05:12,245 Speaker 2: form of Christianity. If you're familiar with the Dugger family 94 00:05:12,365 --> 00:05:15,645 Speaker 2: on TLC's Nineteen Kids and counting, that's the most visible 95 00:05:15,645 --> 00:05:18,805 Speaker 2: family of the Gothard system. I was in Shiny Happy 96 00:05:18,845 --> 00:05:21,805 Speaker 2: People last year and that did a big expose on 97 00:05:21,845 --> 00:05:24,725 Speaker 2: the IBLP and how it works and how it has 98 00:05:24,885 --> 00:05:28,125 Speaker 2: gone into because of its agenda, it's gone into every 99 00:05:28,365 --> 00:05:32,925 Speaker 2: branch of government and the entire evangelical movement. That's why 100 00:05:32,925 --> 00:05:34,885 Speaker 2: I call it the cult without walls, because we were 101 00:05:35,365 --> 00:05:39,085 Speaker 2: part of this high control group with very strict criteria 102 00:05:39,245 --> 00:05:43,085 Speaker 2: that meets all of the cult definition, but it doesn't 103 00:05:43,125 --> 00:05:45,965 Speaker 2: have a building, and so people identify with cults is 104 00:05:45,965 --> 00:05:48,525 Speaker 2: like it's a place you go and it's a single 105 00:05:48,565 --> 00:05:51,765 Speaker 2: person you follow, and that is not how high control 106 00:05:51,805 --> 00:05:54,165 Speaker 2: religion works. I believe it does meet all of the 107 00:05:54,205 --> 00:05:57,725 Speaker 2: cult criteria. And if you listen to survivors, you hear 108 00:05:57,765 --> 00:06:02,445 Speaker 2: from multiple backgrounds, all kinds of different evangelical sex and denominations, 109 00:06:02,525 --> 00:06:04,245 Speaker 2: with very similar experiences. 110 00:06:04,645 --> 00:06:10,645 Speaker 1: What's the role of the Duggers in the Ibopa and Gothard? 111 00:06:10,725 --> 00:06:13,285 Speaker 2: You know, as the leader of that church, they were 112 00:06:13,445 --> 00:06:17,805 Speaker 2: kind of reputation ambassadors. They had some influence in sway, 113 00:06:17,885 --> 00:06:21,205 Speaker 2: but they were one of star families because of the 114 00:06:21,285 --> 00:06:23,645 Speaker 2: number of children that they had and their high visibility 115 00:06:23,725 --> 00:06:28,725 Speaker 2: and their political involvement. But really their role was lifestyle evangelism. 116 00:06:28,845 --> 00:06:31,405 Speaker 2: So their purpose was to show the world what a 117 00:06:31,445 --> 00:06:34,245 Speaker 2: great lifestyle this is, so that people will feel attracted 118 00:06:34,245 --> 00:06:36,485 Speaker 2: to it and choose it. And it worked in a 119 00:06:36,485 --> 00:06:40,325 Speaker 2: big influential way in America. Plenty of people watched that 120 00:06:40,405 --> 00:06:42,885 Speaker 2: show just to watch the car accident and the crazies, 121 00:06:42,925 --> 00:06:46,405 Speaker 2: but plenty more thought it was an enviable way to live. 122 00:06:46,525 --> 00:06:49,365 Speaker 2: And the trad lifestyle that we find ourselves in today 123 00:06:50,045 --> 00:06:53,285 Speaker 2: is in large part influenced by fundamentalism on TV. 124 00:06:53,685 --> 00:06:57,005 Speaker 1: So while you were preparing for womanhood, talk to me 125 00:06:57,085 --> 00:07:01,725 Speaker 1: about your teenagees and what influence the IBLP and Gothard 126 00:07:02,005 --> 00:07:02,565 Speaker 1: had on you. 127 00:07:03,205 --> 00:07:05,605 Speaker 2: So it was an invisible influence for me in my 128 00:07:05,685 --> 00:07:08,245 Speaker 2: high school years because I didn't know about him. His 129 00:07:08,405 --> 00:07:10,645 Speaker 2: people were around me, and I was observing them, and 130 00:07:10,685 --> 00:07:13,125 Speaker 2: I was learning all their special rules, and I was 131 00:07:13,165 --> 00:07:16,045 Speaker 2: observing that there was this way in our church to 132 00:07:16,085 --> 00:07:19,005 Speaker 2: be a special kind of Christian, a holier Christian, somebody 133 00:07:19,045 --> 00:07:21,285 Speaker 2: who was more devout and more sold out and serious 134 00:07:21,325 --> 00:07:24,445 Speaker 2: in their faith, and that it had a lifestyle projection 135 00:07:24,605 --> 00:07:27,005 Speaker 2: in that they wore different clothes, and they had lots 136 00:07:27,005 --> 00:07:29,845 Speaker 2: of children, and they decided to homeschool their children, and 137 00:07:29,925 --> 00:07:32,605 Speaker 2: so we had a lot of respect and reverence for them. 138 00:07:32,965 --> 00:07:35,085 Speaker 2: Not everyone wanted to live that way, but it seemed 139 00:07:35,165 --> 00:07:37,845 Speaker 2: very much like an option you could take. It wasn't 140 00:07:38,005 --> 00:07:41,245 Speaker 2: a serious pursuit of mine until I was married and 141 00:07:41,405 --> 00:07:44,005 Speaker 2: very quickly a young mother, and I was in abuse 142 00:07:44,045 --> 00:07:46,165 Speaker 2: and I needed to keep my baby quiet at night, 143 00:07:46,605 --> 00:07:49,005 Speaker 2: and I turned to an older mother in that system 144 00:07:49,125 --> 00:07:53,165 Speaker 2: to teach me how to help my baby sleep but 145 00:07:53,285 --> 00:07:55,565 Speaker 2: also keep the home. It's called keepers of the home, 146 00:07:55,605 --> 00:07:58,325 Speaker 2: and so I wanted to be a godly Proverbs thirty 147 00:07:58,365 --> 00:08:01,085 Speaker 2: one woman and be good. You know what I was 148 00:08:01,085 --> 00:08:03,205 Speaker 2: trying to be, which was just a Christian wife and mother. 149 00:08:03,605 --> 00:08:06,965 Speaker 1: You talk about in your book that at fourteen, when 150 00:08:07,085 --> 00:08:12,645 Speaker 1: most young girls at the mall and shopping and maybe 151 00:08:12,685 --> 00:08:17,005 Speaker 1: getting on Instagram and posting selfies, your job was to 152 00:08:17,125 --> 00:08:19,645 Speaker 1: prepare at age fourteen to be a Christian wife and 153 00:08:19,725 --> 00:08:23,005 Speaker 1: mother within the church. What did that preparation actually look like? 154 00:08:23,685 --> 00:08:27,205 Speaker 2: Hell, that's a great question, because we weren't actually preparing 155 00:08:27,245 --> 00:08:29,365 Speaker 2: to be wives. And if they had been teaching us 156 00:08:29,725 --> 00:08:32,205 Speaker 2: here's what you might practically face as a wife, I 157 00:08:32,285 --> 00:08:35,205 Speaker 2: might have had some more tools under my belt. Instead, 158 00:08:35,245 --> 00:08:37,085 Speaker 2: it was looked like a lot of what you don't do, 159 00:08:37,525 --> 00:08:41,525 Speaker 2: very heavily focused on purity culture and remaining a virgin 160 00:08:42,325 --> 00:08:43,405 Speaker 2: not tempting men. 161 00:08:43,685 --> 00:08:47,605 Speaker 1: What's purity culture for someone who's not familiar with purity culture. 162 00:08:47,925 --> 00:08:51,365 Speaker 2: Purity culture is an entire culture that's built around keeping 163 00:08:51,405 --> 00:08:55,485 Speaker 2: you sexually pure. So it includes modesty so that you're 164 00:08:55,565 --> 00:08:58,125 Speaker 2: learning how to dress in a very modest manner that 165 00:08:58,165 --> 00:09:02,005 Speaker 2: won't tempt men. It also includes your behavior, your speech 166 00:09:02,285 --> 00:09:05,525 Speaker 2: being modest in all ways. We call it purity culture here, 167 00:09:05,565 --> 00:09:08,525 Speaker 2: because this is the idea that your behavior can make 168 00:09:08,525 --> 00:09:11,365 Speaker 2: you impure and that you are trying to stay pure 169 00:09:11,445 --> 00:09:15,005 Speaker 2: so that you can be an undefiled bride for your husband. 170 00:09:15,485 --> 00:09:20,005 Speaker 1: I want to ask about modesty, because what does modesty 171 00:09:20,125 --> 00:09:23,565 Speaker 1: actually mean in this context, because for most people, modesty 172 00:09:23,645 --> 00:09:28,325 Speaker 1: means you don't go around perhaps begniting yourself. You have humility, 173 00:09:28,805 --> 00:09:32,245 Speaker 1: but that's not what this kind of modesty in religious 174 00:09:32,245 --> 00:09:34,845 Speaker 1: fundamentalism means. Can you explain what it is? 175 00:09:35,205 --> 00:09:38,765 Speaker 2: That's the big irony is that modesty, especially in scriptures, 176 00:09:38,845 --> 00:09:40,765 Speaker 2: has a lot to do with your bearing and behavior. 177 00:09:41,245 --> 00:09:44,925 Speaker 2: But what it's become an evangelical culture is a hyperfixation 178 00:09:45,085 --> 00:09:47,245 Speaker 2: on the length of a girl's skirt and whether or 179 00:09:47,285 --> 00:09:50,605 Speaker 2: not her brasstrap is showing or Bill Gothard has a 180 00:09:50,645 --> 00:09:54,165 Speaker 2: teaching called eye traps. So these are the way clothing 181 00:09:54,245 --> 00:09:57,285 Speaker 2: is designed to draw your eye to say, a slender 182 00:09:57,325 --> 00:10:01,205 Speaker 2: waistline or cleavage or something that might attract a man's attention, 183 00:10:01,365 --> 00:10:05,365 Speaker 2: and that is ruled as immodest clothing. Your behavior can 184 00:10:05,405 --> 00:10:08,045 Speaker 2: be immodest, and that you can be loud or laugh 185 00:10:08,165 --> 00:10:11,045 Speaker 2: too loud, stand out in any way you know that 186 00:10:11,085 --> 00:10:13,445 Speaker 2: can become a thing. But it's all external. 187 00:10:13,805 --> 00:10:16,645 Speaker 1: Is it about sexuality? Because it's at an age. You know, 188 00:10:16,725 --> 00:10:19,165 Speaker 1: a fourteen year old girl, she's growing breast, she's menstruating, 189 00:10:19,205 --> 00:10:21,205 Speaker 1: she's suddenly aware that men are looking at her in 190 00:10:21,245 --> 00:10:26,045 Speaker 1: a different way. She's maybe feeling hormones, she's maybe feeling things. 191 00:10:26,445 --> 00:10:28,805 Speaker 1: In fact, she no doubt is all of the things. 192 00:10:29,525 --> 00:10:31,605 Speaker 1: How are you taught to interpret that that all of 193 00:10:31,645 --> 00:10:34,885 Speaker 1: that was dangerous and that it was sinful, and that 194 00:10:34,965 --> 00:10:39,485 Speaker 1: it was your job to protect men from the sin 195 00:10:39,565 --> 00:10:40,165 Speaker 1: of you. 196 00:10:41,005 --> 00:10:45,045 Speaker 2: Yes, it's completely internalized. The actual scripture says that if 197 00:10:45,045 --> 00:10:47,125 Speaker 2: a man lusts, he should pluck his eyes out and 198 00:10:47,325 --> 00:10:50,525 Speaker 2: never mentions what the girl is doing. But we flipped it, 199 00:10:50,765 --> 00:10:54,125 Speaker 2: the evangelical culture flipped it. It was all focused on 200 00:10:54,605 --> 00:10:57,365 Speaker 2: first how we were addressing and being, but then eventually 201 00:10:57,445 --> 00:11:02,925 Speaker 2: our very worth was sinful, distracting, dangerous, tempting. I interpreted 202 00:11:02,965 --> 00:11:06,165 Speaker 2: the things I was feeling as a sexualized young person, 203 00:11:06,605 --> 00:11:09,725 Speaker 2: those were my temptations to sin and step out of 204 00:11:09,805 --> 00:11:13,805 Speaker 2: the will of God. So constantly suppressing any urges or 205 00:11:13,845 --> 00:11:16,805 Speaker 2: attractions or desires so that I wouldn't feel them. It's 206 00:11:16,885 --> 00:11:19,085 Speaker 2: very important to not feel them so that you can 207 00:11:19,525 --> 00:11:22,565 Speaker 2: remain pure, and then it's supposed to magically turn on 208 00:11:22,925 --> 00:11:25,725 Speaker 2: when you're married, which we know now it doesn't. For 209 00:11:25,765 --> 00:11:28,485 Speaker 2: a lot of women's sexual dysfunction is very, very high 210 00:11:28,565 --> 00:11:31,005 Speaker 2: because our nervous system does not acclimate that way. That's 211 00:11:31,005 --> 00:11:32,205 Speaker 2: not how the human body works. 212 00:11:32,485 --> 00:11:35,165 Speaker 1: Did you have sex before your wedding at nineteen? 213 00:11:35,485 --> 00:11:38,565 Speaker 2: I had an early sexual assault when I was thirteen 214 00:11:38,605 --> 00:11:41,645 Speaker 2: that I interpreted as maybe my first kiss. I wasn't 215 00:11:41,685 --> 00:11:44,445 Speaker 2: really sure. I didn't have anybody to talk to about that, 216 00:11:44,805 --> 00:11:48,765 Speaker 2: and I had one kiss with a boyfriend otherwise, but no, 217 00:11:49,045 --> 00:11:51,845 Speaker 2: did not have any real experience before my wedding night. 218 00:11:52,485 --> 00:11:55,565 Speaker 1: After this brag, tea gets married at nineteen and her 219 00:11:55,565 --> 00:11:59,045 Speaker 1: life is about to change dramatically, and then she realizes 220 00:11:59,365 --> 00:12:02,045 Speaker 1: she was in danger really from the first night of 221 00:12:02,125 --> 00:12:14,245 Speaker 1: that marriage. How did you meet your husband? 222 00:12:14,445 --> 00:12:16,725 Speaker 2: Yes, So this big mega church I go to, or 223 00:12:16,805 --> 00:12:19,645 Speaker 2: went to, is Jacksonville support City. So we have a 224 00:12:19,725 --> 00:12:21,805 Speaker 2: naval port and he was a sailor that came in 225 00:12:21,845 --> 00:12:24,925 Speaker 2: on a ship and attended our navy ministry. We had 226 00:12:24,925 --> 00:12:28,005 Speaker 2: this big military ministry to reach the sailors for Christ. 227 00:12:28,605 --> 00:12:31,045 Speaker 2: They come in for you know, community and to meet girls. 228 00:12:31,165 --> 00:12:33,325 Speaker 2: So that's what happened. I went to a hay ride 229 00:12:33,365 --> 00:12:35,685 Speaker 2: and he was there, and we met at a mixer 230 00:12:36,085 --> 00:12:39,325 Speaker 2: near Christmas time. About four weeks later we were engaged. 231 00:12:39,765 --> 00:12:42,605 Speaker 2: I didn't really know him, but he had decided I 232 00:12:42,685 --> 00:12:44,485 Speaker 2: was the girl he wanted to marry, and I was 233 00:12:44,605 --> 00:12:46,445 Speaker 2: in pursuit of a husband at that time. I was 234 00:12:46,565 --> 00:12:49,365 Speaker 2: very open to this is the only thing I can 235 00:12:49,405 --> 00:12:51,245 Speaker 2: do with my life is to be a Christian wife 236 00:12:51,245 --> 00:12:53,205 Speaker 2: and mother, so I need a husband to do that. 237 00:12:53,725 --> 00:12:56,445 Speaker 2: I was primed and ready to receive whoever said they 238 00:12:56,485 --> 00:12:57,845 Speaker 2: were God's will for my life. 239 00:12:58,085 --> 00:13:00,925 Speaker 1: Did having a job or a career ever occur to 240 00:13:01,005 --> 00:13:03,005 Speaker 1: you or was that ever presented to you as a 241 00:13:03,045 --> 00:13:06,205 Speaker 1: possibility When you say an agent girl, it's. 242 00:13:06,085 --> 00:13:08,965 Speaker 2: A grief, you know. I share in the book how 243 00:13:09,005 --> 00:13:12,845 Speaker 2: I learned to split myself. I had dreams and desires 244 00:13:12,845 --> 00:13:15,445 Speaker 2: and opportunities and talents, and I had to learn to 245 00:13:15,485 --> 00:13:18,285 Speaker 2: suppress them and stuff them down. They were not in 246 00:13:18,325 --> 00:13:20,765 Speaker 2: accordance with what I was being told was the only 247 00:13:20,845 --> 00:13:25,005 Speaker 2: acceptable outcome for my life, and it was unbearable to 248 00:13:25,805 --> 00:13:28,885 Speaker 2: feel the loss of them. So I learned to stuff 249 00:13:28,925 --> 00:13:31,005 Speaker 2: them away. And there was a season where I tried 250 00:13:31,045 --> 00:13:34,045 Speaker 2: to I wanted to be an artist, and I thought, oh, 251 00:13:34,085 --> 00:13:35,925 Speaker 2: if I'm an artist for God, I can do it. 252 00:13:36,045 --> 00:13:38,005 Speaker 2: That's how I'll get through this. And that didn't work 253 00:13:38,045 --> 00:13:40,685 Speaker 2: because I was chosen for marriage first and it just 254 00:13:40,845 --> 00:13:41,445 Speaker 2: didn't work. 255 00:13:41,725 --> 00:13:44,765 Speaker 1: You took about being chosen. Did you want to marry 256 00:13:44,805 --> 00:13:46,965 Speaker 1: this guy? Was he nice? Did you like him? 257 00:13:47,405 --> 00:13:50,525 Speaker 2: I didn't really know him. I did not feel attracted 258 00:13:50,525 --> 00:13:52,965 Speaker 2: to him. I know in hindsight that if we had 259 00:13:53,005 --> 00:13:57,005 Speaker 2: given it natural time, you know, to unfold, he would 260 00:13:57,045 --> 00:14:00,245 Speaker 2: have shown his true character. He had behavior tendencies that 261 00:14:00,365 --> 00:14:04,165 Speaker 2: were masked, carefully masked under charm, and that charm would 262 00:14:04,205 --> 00:14:06,445 Speaker 2: have fallen away if we had given it more time, 263 00:14:06,485 --> 00:14:08,805 Speaker 2: which he knew, and that's why he needed to secure 264 00:14:08,805 --> 00:14:12,085 Speaker 2: me so quickly. So I was locked in very quickly 265 00:14:12,165 --> 00:14:14,405 Speaker 2: and did not feel like I really had a choice 266 00:14:14,485 --> 00:14:16,805 Speaker 2: by that point. You don't believe you can say no 267 00:14:16,925 --> 00:14:19,045 Speaker 2: to a man or to God, and they are one 268 00:14:19,085 --> 00:14:19,525 Speaker 2: and the same. 269 00:14:20,005 --> 00:14:22,285 Speaker 1: So when he decided that he wanted to marry you, 270 00:14:23,365 --> 00:14:24,925 Speaker 1: was it on an option to say no? Or you 271 00:14:24,965 --> 00:14:27,045 Speaker 1: were like, yeah, I need a husband, Like why not? 272 00:14:27,645 --> 00:14:29,485 Speaker 2: It's a great question, because I just feel for a 273 00:14:29,565 --> 00:14:33,365 Speaker 2: little nineteen year old me who yeah, really didn't spend 274 00:14:33,365 --> 00:14:36,725 Speaker 2: that much time thinking that. I think I project onto 275 00:14:36,765 --> 00:14:40,485 Speaker 2: her that she wanted to say no, but I think 276 00:14:40,725 --> 00:14:43,685 Speaker 2: that she actually didn't spend that much time deliberating. She'd 277 00:14:43,725 --> 00:14:46,085 Speaker 2: been taught that you were going to say yes, and 278 00:14:46,125 --> 00:14:48,205 Speaker 2: that's how you're going to know it's right. If you're asked, 279 00:14:48,245 --> 00:14:51,805 Speaker 2: then you know it's right. And I was very practiced 280 00:14:51,845 --> 00:14:56,085 Speaker 2: at shutting down my signals, my arguments, any resistance I had, 281 00:14:56,485 --> 00:15:00,405 Speaker 2: and I instead funneled that energy into talking myself into it. 282 00:15:00,685 --> 00:15:04,045 Speaker 1: Tell me about your wedding day. Did you like it? 283 00:15:04,045 --> 00:15:08,165 Speaker 2: It's magical? I did love it. My parents went all out. 284 00:15:08,525 --> 00:15:11,365 Speaker 2: My mom's just seems dress. She spent so many hours 285 00:15:11,365 --> 00:15:13,685 Speaker 2: on my dresses and my bridesmaid's dresses. And we had 286 00:15:13,685 --> 00:15:17,045 Speaker 2: a very traditional wedding, and it was near Christmas time 287 00:15:17,125 --> 00:15:19,605 Speaker 2: the following year, and so it was just I took 288 00:15:19,605 --> 00:15:23,085 Speaker 2: advantage of the whole season feeling festive, and we had 289 00:15:23,085 --> 00:15:25,805 Speaker 2: a horse drawn carriage, and I had a cape, and 290 00:15:25,925 --> 00:15:28,765 Speaker 2: it was romantic and candlelight and really beautiful. I mean, 291 00:15:28,765 --> 00:15:32,885 Speaker 2: it was not smooth and without issue, but I was 292 00:15:33,005 --> 00:15:36,685 Speaker 2: overwhelmingly really happy, and I felt like I was celebrating 293 00:15:36,765 --> 00:15:39,205 Speaker 2: this launch into the rest of my life. 294 00:15:39,445 --> 00:15:41,565 Speaker 1: You say you had a very traditional wedding. Before you 295 00:15:41,565 --> 00:15:44,085 Speaker 1: walk down the aisle, your dad was like, are you ready, 296 00:15:44,125 --> 00:15:45,285 Speaker 1: and you said, I can't see. 297 00:15:45,885 --> 00:15:50,285 Speaker 2: Yeah. My veil was heavy chiffon. I wanted it to 298 00:15:50,365 --> 00:15:54,125 Speaker 2: drape differently than the bridal tool. Bridle tool is very puffy, 299 00:15:54,405 --> 00:15:57,485 Speaker 2: and I wanted a romantic drape. So I picked this fabric. 300 00:15:57,565 --> 00:16:00,325 Speaker 2: It looked gorgeous and photos and it looked gorgeous by day, 301 00:16:00,645 --> 00:16:02,565 Speaker 2: but we were standing in candlelight, and so when we 302 00:16:02,565 --> 00:16:05,165 Speaker 2: flipped it over my head, I couldn't see anything. It 303 00:16:05,205 --> 00:16:08,285 Speaker 2: was a shrouded woman and I had to walk the 304 00:16:08,325 --> 00:16:09,365 Speaker 2: aisle blind. 305 00:16:09,365 --> 00:16:10,965 Speaker 1: Which was very symbolic, wasn't it. 306 00:16:11,325 --> 00:16:13,125 Speaker 2: We ended up being quite metaphorical. 307 00:16:13,245 --> 00:16:18,165 Speaker 1: Yes, your wedding night. What did you know going into 308 00:16:18,205 --> 00:16:20,245 Speaker 1: it about what was going to happen on your wedding night? 309 00:16:20,765 --> 00:16:23,365 Speaker 2: I knew that we would have sex. I did not 310 00:16:23,525 --> 00:16:26,005 Speaker 2: fully understand what sex was. I knew there would be 311 00:16:26,485 --> 00:16:30,085 Speaker 2: insertion of anatomy and that it would hurt, but that 312 00:16:30,565 --> 00:16:34,125 Speaker 2: it would be romantic and loving and God designed, and 313 00:16:34,205 --> 00:16:36,925 Speaker 2: so it would be okay. That I would be held in, 314 00:16:37,005 --> 00:16:40,525 Speaker 2: caressed and cared for. We had a book by ed Wheat. 315 00:16:40,605 --> 00:16:43,885 Speaker 2: It was called intended for pleasure. And then also like 316 00:16:43,925 --> 00:16:46,565 Speaker 2: this is what they tell young fiances. We had been 317 00:16:46,565 --> 00:16:49,365 Speaker 2: in an engaged class and had premarital counseling through the church, 318 00:16:49,485 --> 00:16:52,925 Speaker 2: and so there was no real sex education or instruction 319 00:16:53,165 --> 00:16:56,485 Speaker 2: or transparency. But they did, you know, set us up. 320 00:16:56,605 --> 00:17:00,245 Speaker 2: We also read Elizabeth Elliott's Passion and Purity, which talks 321 00:17:00,285 --> 00:17:02,925 Speaker 2: a lot about remaining pure until your wedding night so 322 00:17:02,965 --> 00:17:05,765 Speaker 2: that you can give yourself as a spotless woman to 323 00:17:05,925 --> 00:17:08,845 Speaker 2: your husband and you will be rewarded with great pleasure 324 00:17:08,965 --> 00:17:14,085 Speaker 2: and married passion, and it will be beautiful and procreative 325 00:17:14,725 --> 00:17:17,085 Speaker 2: and song of solemn and love of joy. That's a 326 00:17:17,605 --> 00:17:19,765 Speaker 2: book in the Bible that talks about sexual pleasure. 327 00:17:20,165 --> 00:17:22,725 Speaker 1: Sounds awesome. Is that how it went down. 328 00:17:22,805 --> 00:17:25,965 Speaker 2: That's not how it went down. What actually happened is 329 00:17:26,005 --> 00:17:28,325 Speaker 2: that I had three sexual assaults on my wedding night 330 00:17:28,525 --> 00:17:31,605 Speaker 2: and no language to describe that or a way to 331 00:17:31,645 --> 00:17:35,285 Speaker 2: ask for help or explain. And a week later I 332 00:17:35,405 --> 00:17:38,085 Speaker 2: ended up with a raging infection and a doctor who 333 00:17:38,445 --> 00:17:41,485 Speaker 2: shed light on the fact that there had been battery 334 00:17:41,605 --> 00:17:45,885 Speaker 2: involved and violence. But I really did not understand what 335 00:17:46,005 --> 00:17:48,285 Speaker 2: happened on my wedding night until a good fourteen years 336 00:17:48,365 --> 00:17:52,445 Speaker 2: later when I was finally given language for marital rape 337 00:17:52,525 --> 00:17:53,725 Speaker 2: and what consent means. 338 00:17:54,125 --> 00:17:56,965 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that that happened to you. It's shocking, 339 00:17:56,965 --> 00:17:58,405 Speaker 1: and when you talk about it in the book, it 340 00:17:58,485 --> 00:18:00,725 Speaker 1: is so shocking. I don't want to make you relive it. 341 00:18:01,765 --> 00:18:04,725 Speaker 1: But was there a part of you that thought, oh, 342 00:18:05,125 --> 00:18:07,885 Speaker 1: this doesn't seem right. It sounds like maybe there there 343 00:18:07,965 --> 00:18:10,525 Speaker 1: was no consent because you you his property as well. 344 00:18:10,565 --> 00:18:13,125 Speaker 1: Consent wasn't something you even knew about, was it not? 345 00:18:13,245 --> 00:18:15,205 Speaker 2: At all? That is not a word I knew until 346 00:18:15,485 --> 00:18:18,725 Speaker 2: I was out of this marriage. Part of that is 347 00:18:18,765 --> 00:18:21,325 Speaker 2: just culturally, we didn't have very much of a conversation 348 00:18:21,445 --> 00:18:24,725 Speaker 2: around consent. The therapeutic language that we have available to 349 00:18:24,805 --> 00:18:28,645 Speaker 2: us today has evolved because survivors and because of researchers 350 00:18:28,685 --> 00:18:31,485 Speaker 2: and therapists. At this point, we're in nineteen ninety six. 351 00:18:31,485 --> 00:18:33,085 Speaker 2: In the story, I did not have that. 352 00:18:33,565 --> 00:18:36,565 Speaker 1: What does the term quiverful mean? Oh? 353 00:18:36,605 --> 00:18:39,285 Speaker 2: Okay, So this is based on a verse in the Bible. 354 00:18:40,045 --> 00:18:44,005 Speaker 2: It's relating children to weapons, and if you're going into war, 355 00:18:44,125 --> 00:18:47,685 Speaker 2: you want lots of weapons. So the verse says weapons 356 00:18:47,725 --> 00:18:50,765 Speaker 2: in the hand of a warrior are children unto the Lord, 357 00:18:50,925 --> 00:18:53,125 Speaker 2: happy is the man that has his quiver full of them? 358 00:18:53,605 --> 00:18:56,645 Speaker 2: And so that is metaphor that child is an arrow, 359 00:18:56,725 --> 00:18:59,005 Speaker 2: and you want a quiver full of arrows for your 360 00:18:59,045 --> 00:19:03,605 Speaker 2: culture war against the West and against secularism and democracy, 361 00:19:03,685 --> 00:19:07,165 Speaker 2: everything that the Christian nationalists and the dominionists are against 362 00:19:07,725 --> 00:19:09,765 Speaker 2: in the Bible. Of course, this was the Psalm, so 363 00:19:09,925 --> 00:19:12,205 Speaker 2: there was an actual war that they were talking about 364 00:19:12,245 --> 00:19:14,725 Speaker 2: with the weaponry that they had available in Bible times. 365 00:19:15,125 --> 00:19:19,525 Speaker 2: The quiverful mindset in the evangelical movement was promoted through 366 00:19:19,685 --> 00:19:22,925 Speaker 2: Bill Gothard's institute. He did not author that. It's just 367 00:19:23,005 --> 00:19:27,725 Speaker 2: what they latched onto because dominionism is their underlying theology. 368 00:19:27,765 --> 00:19:32,285 Speaker 2: They want to dominate the world's government through population, so 369 00:19:32,925 --> 00:19:36,085 Speaker 2: they want to have as many babies as possible without. 370 00:19:35,765 --> 00:19:39,445 Speaker 1: Stop, which was turned into such a kind of a funny, 371 00:19:39,525 --> 00:19:43,205 Speaker 1: quirky joke on fifteen in Counting or sixteen on counting 372 00:19:43,285 --> 00:19:47,045 Speaker 1: with great doggers. But from what you say, there's something 373 00:19:47,165 --> 00:19:52,605 Speaker 1: a lot more insidious about it. It's literally repopulating the 374 00:19:52,645 --> 00:19:57,765 Speaker 1: world with a particular type of fundamental religious belief. 375 00:19:58,365 --> 00:20:02,965 Speaker 2: They want white Christian babies, They want to dominate elections 376 00:20:02,965 --> 00:20:06,685 Speaker 2: and population with an ideology that is not pro democracy. 377 00:20:06,725 --> 00:20:10,125 Speaker 2: It is not equality or freedom. It ejected five's children 378 00:20:10,165 --> 00:20:14,045 Speaker 2: because it reduces them to a number. And there's a 379 00:20:14,205 --> 00:20:17,445 Speaker 2: host of lifestyle accommodations that come with that kind of 380 00:20:17,685 --> 00:20:22,245 Speaker 2: backwardness that modern society would ordinarily reject. 381 00:20:22,765 --> 00:20:25,045 Speaker 1: You were careful to say in your book that your 382 00:20:25,085 --> 00:20:28,645 Speaker 1: world was not fringe. It was very mainstream, and that's 383 00:20:28,685 --> 00:20:31,245 Speaker 1: how it thrives. Can you tell me more about that? 384 00:20:31,645 --> 00:20:33,565 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the Duggers again are going to serve as 385 00:20:33,605 --> 00:20:36,605 Speaker 2: a really good example. This is a lifestyle. When we 386 00:20:36,645 --> 00:20:38,485 Speaker 2: talk about it, the tendency is to say that it 387 00:20:38,525 --> 00:20:41,565 Speaker 2: was fringe and extreme, except TLC put it on TV 388 00:20:41,685 --> 00:20:44,965 Speaker 2: and it had many years of seasons and lots of 389 00:20:45,005 --> 00:20:49,885 Speaker 2: money and millions of viewers. They promote themselves as a 390 00:20:50,165 --> 00:20:53,805 Speaker 2: innocence and a wholesome aesthetic. That's very appealing and attractive 391 00:20:53,885 --> 00:20:56,925 Speaker 2: because who doesn't love rows and rows of beautiful, obedient 392 00:20:57,005 --> 00:21:00,965 Speaker 2: children and sweet babies. And the women involved want motherhood. 393 00:21:01,125 --> 00:21:04,685 Speaker 2: I always say fundamentalism exploits the thing you wanted for yourself. 394 00:21:04,725 --> 00:21:08,005 Speaker 2: I wanted motherhood. The mothers I knew all wanted motherhood. 395 00:21:08,485 --> 00:21:11,725 Speaker 2: And it's the very vehicle that they are reduced by 396 00:21:11,885 --> 00:21:13,565 Speaker 2: until sometimes the point of death. 397 00:21:13,925 --> 00:21:16,245 Speaker 1: You say sometimes until the point of death. Do you 398 00:21:16,325 --> 00:21:19,365 Speaker 1: mean that they are encouraged to keep having pregnancies, Because 399 00:21:19,685 --> 00:21:22,045 Speaker 1: I thought this for a long time actually about Michelle Duggerh. 400 00:21:22,045 --> 00:21:25,605 Speaker 1: I'm like, it's not safe. She'd had cesareans, she'd had complications, 401 00:21:26,165 --> 00:21:28,365 Speaker 1: she was still trying to get pregnant and pregnant and 402 00:21:28,405 --> 00:21:31,405 Speaker 1: have more and more and more babies. Are women really 403 00:21:31,445 --> 00:21:34,485 Speaker 1: just seen as baby factories? Essentially, is that the role 404 00:21:34,485 --> 00:21:35,765 Speaker 1: of women within this system. 405 00:21:35,965 --> 00:21:39,205 Speaker 2: Women are seen as breeding cows, and they're interchangeable, and 406 00:21:39,245 --> 00:21:44,165 Speaker 2: they die from things like ongoing uterine issues, prolapsed uteruses, 407 00:21:44,365 --> 00:21:49,045 Speaker 2: early cancer diagnosis, exhaustion, depression, lack of resources, and then 408 00:21:49,045 --> 00:21:51,925 Speaker 2: they're replaced with a younger model who will continue having babies. 409 00:21:52,045 --> 00:21:54,725 Speaker 2: That happened again and again. We would see a mother 410 00:21:55,725 --> 00:22:01,765 Speaker 2: die in her thirties early forties from essentially exhaustion related causes, 411 00:22:02,325 --> 00:22:04,645 Speaker 2: and then replaced it with a younger a younger woman, 412 00:22:04,685 --> 00:22:06,965 Speaker 2: and she'd continue having babies for that man. 413 00:22:07,245 --> 00:22:10,165 Speaker 1: It's interesting what you say about also, so you've written 414 00:22:10,205 --> 00:22:13,605 Speaker 1: about how the wives have to talk in a very 415 00:22:14,205 --> 00:22:16,925 Speaker 1: quiet voice. I mean anyone who's heard Michelle Dugger and 416 00:22:16,965 --> 00:22:22,725 Speaker 1: watch that TV show. It is so unthreatening and soft, 417 00:22:22,845 --> 00:22:26,125 Speaker 1: and you write it's on purpose, like the trained childlike voice. 418 00:22:26,525 --> 00:22:30,165 Speaker 1: Fundy women. Fundamentalist women are trained to adore their men 419 00:22:30,245 --> 00:22:33,085 Speaker 1: by offering their rapt attention, even if he's an idiot, 420 00:22:33,125 --> 00:22:35,445 Speaker 1: even if he's not saying much at all, even if 421 00:22:35,485 --> 00:22:38,245 Speaker 1: you have an intelligent point to make. He's your head, 422 00:22:38,405 --> 00:22:41,925 Speaker 1: he's a conduit of Jesus. He's amazing, and of course 423 00:22:41,965 --> 00:22:45,205 Speaker 1: you're also his consumable resource. So don't be surprised if 424 00:22:45,205 --> 00:22:47,845 Speaker 1: he's up in your business, undresses you with his eyes, 425 00:22:47,965 --> 00:22:51,885 Speaker 1: wants to devour you, invades your space. Is that what 426 00:22:51,925 --> 00:22:54,285 Speaker 1: your life was like? How did that play out well? 427 00:22:54,325 --> 00:22:56,245 Speaker 2: In my case? I don't know if we can say 428 00:22:56,245 --> 00:23:00,285 Speaker 2: fortunate or not. My husband really hated physical contact and sex, 429 00:23:00,445 --> 00:23:03,845 Speaker 2: so in my particular case, he was not in my 430 00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:06,525 Speaker 2: business very often. And it's a miracle that I had 431 00:23:06,565 --> 00:23:07,725 Speaker 2: the number of pregnancies that. 432 00:23:07,685 --> 00:23:10,205 Speaker 1: I had, because when you say in your to be clear, 433 00:23:10,405 --> 00:23:15,885 Speaker 1: you mean sexual assault and rape by husbands of their wives. 434 00:23:16,165 --> 00:23:19,645 Speaker 2: Right. I feel entitled to women's bodies, and they're raised 435 00:23:19,645 --> 00:23:23,205 Speaker 2: from childhood to believe that. Most cases most of the 436 00:23:23,245 --> 00:23:26,965 Speaker 2: survivors I talked to, frequent assault is just the norm, 437 00:23:27,245 --> 00:23:29,325 Speaker 2: and they don't know any different, and they don't even 438 00:23:29,325 --> 00:23:32,645 Speaker 2: know to call it that. Again, not vocabulary available to us. 439 00:23:32,805 --> 00:23:34,605 Speaker 2: It would never dawn on us to say no, because 440 00:23:34,645 --> 00:23:36,565 Speaker 2: we haven't been able to say no about anything else, 441 00:23:37,205 --> 00:23:40,165 Speaker 2: and they've never heard something like if you can't say no, 442 00:23:40,285 --> 00:23:42,965 Speaker 2: then you're not free to say yes. It's just they 443 00:23:43,005 --> 00:23:46,325 Speaker 2: got married. Their marriage was consent, period. That's the world. 444 00:23:46,645 --> 00:23:48,885 Speaker 1: Did you ever step out of line? Did you raise 445 00:23:48,925 --> 00:23:50,805 Speaker 1: your voice talk to him in a way that wasn't 446 00:23:50,845 --> 00:23:55,765 Speaker 1: adoring and approving? Because these women are also humans, So 447 00:23:56,245 --> 00:23:57,205 Speaker 1: did that ever happen to you? 448 00:23:57,565 --> 00:23:59,965 Speaker 2: This is part of my self preservation. Yes, it happened 449 00:23:59,965 --> 00:24:02,485 Speaker 2: to me. My parents actually, you know, they're just they 450 00:24:02,605 --> 00:24:05,405 Speaker 2: just took us to church. They weren't high control people themselves. 451 00:24:05,925 --> 00:24:09,325 Speaker 2: I was a spirited child. I was raised to run 452 00:24:09,125 --> 00:24:11,805 Speaker 2: an play and explore and do things like that, so 453 00:24:12,285 --> 00:24:15,525 Speaker 2: being married to this did not come naturally to me. 454 00:24:15,725 --> 00:24:19,365 Speaker 2: I was constantly at war with my expression, and I 455 00:24:19,445 --> 00:24:21,885 Speaker 2: was also getting in trouble for things that weren't really wrong. 456 00:24:22,525 --> 00:24:25,205 Speaker 2: So I was always trying to suss out where the 457 00:24:25,245 --> 00:24:28,845 Speaker 2: line was what is small enough for you, because sometimes 458 00:24:28,885 --> 00:24:32,285 Speaker 2: just my breathing could make him angry, or an expression 459 00:24:32,325 --> 00:24:34,525 Speaker 2: and opinion at the table. You know, you're not supposed 460 00:24:34,565 --> 00:24:37,365 Speaker 2: to have an opinion. But I'm somebody who is a lot. 461 00:24:37,485 --> 00:24:39,045 Speaker 2: I am a lot of person. I am a lot 462 00:24:39,045 --> 00:24:42,645 Speaker 2: of expression, and I have ideas and dreams and thoughts 463 00:24:42,685 --> 00:24:45,845 Speaker 2: and opinions. And I was also the more mentally capable 464 00:24:46,085 --> 00:24:49,165 Speaker 2: parent for my children. So a lot of times I 465 00:24:49,205 --> 00:24:51,365 Speaker 2: didn't agree with what was going on, and I would 466 00:24:51,485 --> 00:24:54,885 Speaker 2: push back for their sake, to be protective, and that 467 00:24:55,045 --> 00:24:58,245 Speaker 2: usually would get me in some serious trouble in consequences. 468 00:24:58,325 --> 00:25:01,205 Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that was descriptive of most of 469 00:25:01,205 --> 00:25:04,245 Speaker 2: my years with him, that there's a stance happening between us. 470 00:25:04,685 --> 00:25:07,525 Speaker 1: How so, enough to your wedding night, did you have 471 00:25:07,565 --> 00:25:08,445 Speaker 1: your first child? 472 00:25:08,805 --> 00:25:11,405 Speaker 2: I had a miss carriage three months after our wedding, 473 00:25:11,525 --> 00:25:14,445 Speaker 2: and then I had my first baby. I was pregnant 474 00:25:14,485 --> 00:25:17,125 Speaker 2: three months after that, six months after the wedding, so 475 00:25:17,165 --> 00:25:18,205 Speaker 2: he was born the next year. 476 00:25:18,645 --> 00:25:21,125 Speaker 1: How did having a baby and becoming a mother, which 477 00:25:21,245 --> 00:25:26,125 Speaker 1: was clearly your job description and your purpose, how did 478 00:25:26,165 --> 00:25:28,325 Speaker 1: that change the dynamic within your family and how did 479 00:25:28,325 --> 00:25:30,085 Speaker 1: it change your life. 480 00:25:30,085 --> 00:25:33,885 Speaker 2: It was also my dream. And so again I split 481 00:25:33,925 --> 00:25:36,685 Speaker 2: in this way because I loved being a mom and 482 00:25:36,725 --> 00:25:39,925 Speaker 2: I loved having my babies, and I wanted every single 483 00:25:39,965 --> 00:25:43,565 Speaker 2: one of them, and it was always attention within me 484 00:25:43,685 --> 00:25:46,325 Speaker 2: because I just because I wanted them doesn't mean I 485 00:25:46,365 --> 00:25:48,645 Speaker 2: wanted one a year. I wanted to give my body 486 00:25:48,685 --> 00:25:51,245 Speaker 2: a break. I wanted to give us, as a newlywged 487 00:25:51,245 --> 00:25:54,445 Speaker 2: couple that was struggling some time in space to find 488 00:25:54,445 --> 00:25:58,765 Speaker 2: our feet. I thought I had sound arguments for using contraception, 489 00:25:58,885 --> 00:26:02,405 Speaker 2: and I did use contraception on the sly, even though 490 00:26:02,445 --> 00:26:05,925 Speaker 2: I was heavily trained not too I was really trying 491 00:26:06,125 --> 00:26:09,085 Speaker 2: for our health to not do that. And it also 492 00:26:09,165 --> 00:26:11,365 Speaker 2: just really up to the stakes because now there's a 493 00:26:11,445 --> 00:26:14,965 Speaker 2: child involved, and then children involved, and it's not just 494 00:26:15,005 --> 00:26:17,725 Speaker 2: me anymore that's going to pay the consequences. And I 495 00:26:17,805 --> 00:26:20,085 Speaker 2: so badly wanted to give my children a happy childhood 496 00:26:20,085 --> 00:26:22,965 Speaker 2: in a secure home. So it just made me dig 497 00:26:23,005 --> 00:26:25,085 Speaker 2: in harder. You know. It didn't have any way out, 498 00:26:25,165 --> 00:26:28,165 Speaker 2: so there was not a lot of time spent dreaming 499 00:26:28,205 --> 00:26:30,965 Speaker 2: of escape. I dreamt of salvation. I wanted someone to 500 00:26:30,965 --> 00:26:32,645 Speaker 2: come save me and make it better. But I didn't 501 00:26:32,685 --> 00:26:36,405 Speaker 2: dream of escaping because divorce is absolutely forbidden. They would 502 00:26:36,445 --> 00:26:40,405 Speaker 2: probably rather you commit suicide than divorce, but of course 503 00:26:40,405 --> 00:26:42,645 Speaker 2: they don't say that, but in general, if you die, 504 00:26:42,685 --> 00:26:44,725 Speaker 2: it's a little bit nicer than if you get a 505 00:26:44,765 --> 00:26:47,525 Speaker 2: divorce in that circle, so I didn't want to do either. 506 00:26:47,925 --> 00:26:50,005 Speaker 2: I didn't want to die and I didn't have access 507 00:26:50,045 --> 00:26:51,045 Speaker 2: to a divorce. 508 00:26:51,085 --> 00:26:54,565 Speaker 1: Because women in the church were so consumed and are 509 00:26:54,605 --> 00:26:57,085 Speaker 1: the ones that are still there of course looking after 510 00:26:57,805 --> 00:27:00,605 Speaker 1: you know, up to a dozen children, sometimes more, but 511 00:27:00,645 --> 00:27:03,885 Speaker 1: many children very close together, which puts an enormous amount 512 00:27:03,885 --> 00:27:06,885 Speaker 1: of pressure. And often these women are very very young 513 00:27:07,205 --> 00:27:11,365 Speaker 1: when they become mothers. What the church and the IBL 514 00:27:11,405 --> 00:27:14,645 Speaker 1: pay tell you about motherhood and parenting. There was a 515 00:27:14,685 --> 00:27:18,525 Speaker 1: list of things that you could skip. Wasn't there? How 516 00:27:18,565 --> 00:27:20,725 Speaker 1: did that work? And what was on that list? 517 00:27:20,925 --> 00:27:23,605 Speaker 2: So in my work today, I have a list. I 518 00:27:23,645 --> 00:27:26,725 Speaker 2: started compiling that list, and I call the series things 519 00:27:26,805 --> 00:27:29,685 Speaker 2: my Gothared fundamentors said I could skip to have a 520 00:27:29,765 --> 00:27:33,605 Speaker 2: quiver full, because there was a whole long list of 521 00:27:33,725 --> 00:27:36,165 Speaker 2: ordinary things that I took for granted that were part 522 00:27:36,205 --> 00:27:38,885 Speaker 2: of child rearing that they just didn't do so that 523 00:27:38,925 --> 00:27:41,285 Speaker 2: they could have more babies. If you did that thing, 524 00:27:41,285 --> 00:27:43,725 Speaker 2: and it interfered with your decision to have more children. 525 00:27:43,765 --> 00:27:45,245 Speaker 2: Then you stopped doing that thing. 526 00:27:45,565 --> 00:27:46,685 Speaker 1: Can you read that list to me? 527 00:27:47,045 --> 00:27:50,085 Speaker 2: These were forbidden? And I just warn you the list 528 00:27:50,405 --> 00:27:57,645 Speaker 2: is jow dropping well, child visits and pediatricians, academics, haircuts, shopping, 529 00:27:58,125 --> 00:28:06,605 Speaker 2: play dates, socialization, extended family gatherings, birth control, rest, mom friends, 530 00:28:07,445 --> 00:28:14,245 Speaker 2: a second income, the entire concept of being a teenager, toys, snacks, 531 00:28:15,245 --> 00:28:24,885 Speaker 2: education for girls, gynecological visits, consent, sleepless nights, privacy, the dentists, 532 00:28:25,365 --> 00:28:34,245 Speaker 2: separate bedrooms, baby food, pants, voting, therapy, art, and debt. 533 00:28:34,805 --> 00:28:36,925 Speaker 1: What do all of those things have in common? 534 00:28:37,565 --> 00:28:39,565 Speaker 2: Oh, they have many things in common. One of the 535 00:28:39,685 --> 00:28:42,085 Speaker 2: largest is mandatory reporters. 536 00:28:41,725 --> 00:28:45,245 Speaker 1: So to keep you away from anyone who could alert 537 00:28:45,285 --> 00:28:46,685 Speaker 1: authorities to what was going. 538 00:28:46,485 --> 00:28:51,445 Speaker 2: On exactly, agency and ideas that you might have options. 539 00:28:51,605 --> 00:28:53,845 Speaker 2: That's a big piece of the why you would not 540 00:28:54,125 --> 00:28:57,045 Speaker 2: have academics in your homeschool. We weren't allowed to go 541 00:28:57,085 --> 00:29:00,565 Speaker 2: to library. We weren't allowed to educate our daughters, you know, 542 00:29:00,605 --> 00:29:02,485 Speaker 2: because why do they need college. They're going to be 543 00:29:02,565 --> 00:29:05,645 Speaker 2: just wifes and mothers. So their education really stops around 544 00:29:05,925 --> 00:29:08,685 Speaker 2: sixth seventh grade. And then they become just little mothers 545 00:29:08,725 --> 00:29:11,485 Speaker 2: paramothers to prepare to be a wife and mother, and 546 00:29:11,525 --> 00:29:13,805 Speaker 2: then there's skilled at being keepers of the home. We 547 00:29:13,845 --> 00:29:17,125 Speaker 2: don't want our daughters knowing consent. We don't want our 548 00:29:17,165 --> 00:29:19,405 Speaker 2: boys to feel like they need to ask for consent. 549 00:29:20,165 --> 00:29:25,605 Speaker 2: The lists all has a very subtle sales process. I 550 00:29:25,645 --> 00:29:28,485 Speaker 2: was like, shouldn't I take my child to the pediatrician? 551 00:29:28,645 --> 00:29:32,325 Speaker 2: I should get them they're vaccines. No, you don't need 552 00:29:32,365 --> 00:29:34,125 Speaker 2: to do vaccines, and you don't need to do well 553 00:29:34,245 --> 00:29:37,725 Speaker 2: child visits because the pediatrician will pressure you to use 554 00:29:37,725 --> 00:29:41,085 Speaker 2: western medicine, and we don't use that. We don't use doctors. 555 00:29:41,405 --> 00:29:43,045 Speaker 1: You don't use doctors. 556 00:29:43,045 --> 00:29:44,445 Speaker 2: Only in case of emergency. 557 00:29:45,565 --> 00:29:48,485 Speaker 3: After the shortbreak, how one of the greatest losses of 558 00:29:48,565 --> 00:29:52,205 Speaker 3: Tea's life was also her greatest gift and ultimately the 559 00:29:52,285 --> 00:30:02,565 Speaker 3: cay to her freedom. 560 00:30:03,285 --> 00:30:06,405 Speaker 1: You had four children very quickly. You actually had five 561 00:30:06,485 --> 00:30:09,445 Speaker 1: children very quickly, but one of your daughter's, Clara I, 562 00:30:09,565 --> 00:30:13,045 Speaker 1: died at nine and a half weeks old. Yes, I'm 563 00:30:13,085 --> 00:30:15,325 Speaker 1: so sorry for the loss of Clara. That must have 564 00:30:15,405 --> 00:30:21,845 Speaker 1: been impossibly difficult. How did that thrust you into the 565 00:30:21,885 --> 00:30:25,805 Speaker 1: world outside the church, just because of hospitals and doctors. 566 00:30:26,205 --> 00:30:28,165 Speaker 1: She was born with a heart condition, wasn't. 567 00:30:27,965 --> 00:30:31,605 Speaker 2: She yes, hypoplastic left heart syndrome, which is where just 568 00:30:31,725 --> 00:30:34,885 Speaker 2: half of the heart develops. After she was born, we 569 00:30:35,245 --> 00:30:37,565 Speaker 2: traveled out of state to have surgery, and so I 570 00:30:37,685 --> 00:30:41,525 Speaker 2: was immediately immersed into a world where women could be doctors, 571 00:30:41,565 --> 00:30:44,965 Speaker 2: women had jobs, women used childcare. I was alone and 572 00:30:45,005 --> 00:30:47,485 Speaker 2: apart from my husband, I was apart from my babies 573 00:30:47,565 --> 00:30:50,645 Speaker 2: and my mentors. We were in a completely different environment 574 00:30:50,765 --> 00:30:54,125 Speaker 2: and believed that we were on the way to wellness. 575 00:30:54,165 --> 00:30:56,685 Speaker 2: You know. It was definitely with that mindset that we 576 00:30:56,685 --> 00:30:58,885 Speaker 2: were going to get better and go home. And I 577 00:30:58,925 --> 00:31:01,125 Speaker 2: include her story in the book the way that I 578 00:31:01,205 --> 00:31:06,565 Speaker 2: do because the entire experience of Clara absolutely broke me open. 579 00:31:06,925 --> 00:31:09,965 Speaker 2: It broke the spell of mind control. I had never 580 00:31:10,005 --> 00:31:13,125 Speaker 2: lost anyone before I lost my daughter, so it was 581 00:31:13,165 --> 00:31:15,965 Speaker 2: just jarring and shocking all by itself, all for the 582 00:31:16,045 --> 00:31:18,565 Speaker 2: reasons that anyone can imagine and when you lose a child. 583 00:31:19,085 --> 00:31:22,765 Speaker 2: But the experience was so complex and it was impossible 584 00:31:22,805 --> 00:31:25,845 Speaker 2: to box myself back up after I could not be 585 00:31:25,885 --> 00:31:28,765 Speaker 2: the person I had been, and there was a great 586 00:31:28,805 --> 00:31:31,085 Speaker 2: demand on me to become that again. When I got 587 00:31:31,085 --> 00:31:32,885 Speaker 2: back home. There was so much pressure on me to 588 00:31:32,925 --> 00:31:36,085 Speaker 2: not grieve too long, you know, don't make people uncomfortable 589 00:31:36,085 --> 00:31:38,965 Speaker 2: with your grief. Get back to business quickly, have another child, 590 00:31:39,525 --> 00:31:42,445 Speaker 2: give God all the glory. And I just couldn't box 591 00:31:42,485 --> 00:31:45,085 Speaker 2: myself into that anymore, as she made that impossible. 592 00:31:45,405 --> 00:31:48,085 Speaker 1: And there was no therapy. No in that list that 593 00:31:48,125 --> 00:31:53,605 Speaker 1: you recited, mom, friends, you couldn't even talk to other women. 594 00:31:53,845 --> 00:31:56,165 Speaker 2: No, And if I did, the only women I would 595 00:31:56,205 --> 00:31:58,685 Speaker 2: have been speaking to were my mentors, who would have 596 00:31:58,725 --> 00:32:03,565 Speaker 2: been schooling me to more practical activity and husband obedience. 597 00:32:03,645 --> 00:32:07,885 Speaker 2: Like there's no compassion, empathy, friendship to. 598 00:32:07,925 --> 00:32:09,245 Speaker 1: Her, it's the Handmte's tie. 599 00:32:09,845 --> 00:32:12,245 Speaker 2: Well, I call my story the prequel, the real life 600 00:32:12,285 --> 00:32:14,645 Speaker 2: prequel to the Handmaid's Tale. And it's important to note 601 00:32:14,685 --> 00:32:18,405 Speaker 2: that Atwood used real Christian fundamentalist groups as her model, 602 00:32:18,605 --> 00:32:21,005 Speaker 2: like she didn't make that up. Everything in her books 603 00:32:21,085 --> 00:32:21,805 Speaker 2: already happened. 604 00:32:22,245 --> 00:32:25,605 Speaker 1: What did the church teach you about discipline and obedience, 605 00:32:26,405 --> 00:32:30,325 Speaker 1: both of your children and of yourself high control? 606 00:32:30,605 --> 00:32:32,805 Speaker 2: It has to have a method. So one of the 607 00:32:32,845 --> 00:32:35,565 Speaker 2: things that's true in patriarchy is it's very fear based, 608 00:32:36,285 --> 00:32:39,965 Speaker 2: and they're terrified like these fundamentalists are not evil, crazy 609 00:32:40,005 --> 00:32:42,445 Speaker 2: people that want something different than the rest of us. 610 00:32:42,805 --> 00:32:45,085 Speaker 2: They are just like you and me, and they want 611 00:32:45,165 --> 00:32:49,645 Speaker 2: comforting answers, they want reassuring binaries, they want organization in 612 00:32:49,685 --> 00:32:54,565 Speaker 2: times of chaos, and they want happy families and successful children. 613 00:32:54,685 --> 00:32:58,285 Speaker 2: And so they're convinced that if there aren't this high 614 00:32:58,285 --> 00:33:01,685 Speaker 2: control model, their children will go bad, and that they 615 00:33:01,685 --> 00:33:04,645 Speaker 2: will lose them into a lake of fire. The stakes 616 00:33:04,645 --> 00:33:07,645 Speaker 2: couldn't be higher, because it's an eternity in hell. And 617 00:33:07,725 --> 00:33:10,445 Speaker 2: so all of that convinces parents to do whatever their 618 00:33:10,485 --> 00:33:12,965 Speaker 2: authority tells them they need to do. And there's no 619 00:33:13,045 --> 00:33:17,645 Speaker 2: shortage in patriarchy of resources encouraging parents to treat their 620 00:33:17,685 --> 00:33:20,445 Speaker 2: strong willed child, you know, with a rod of correction. 621 00:33:21,205 --> 00:33:23,885 Speaker 2: This environment that I was in and that is just 622 00:33:24,085 --> 00:33:27,565 Speaker 2: so alive and well today. One teacher really does lead 623 00:33:27,605 --> 00:33:29,885 Speaker 2: to another, and one book leads to another, and so 624 00:33:29,965 --> 00:33:32,045 Speaker 2: the ideas in one book will build off of that 625 00:33:32,205 --> 00:33:35,325 Speaker 2: and take you to the next level of extremity. And 626 00:33:35,485 --> 00:33:39,125 Speaker 2: while everyone may not achieve that far and extreme where 627 00:33:39,205 --> 00:33:42,245 Speaker 2: in my story it includes disciplining wives as if their 628 00:33:42,325 --> 00:33:46,245 Speaker 2: children and wife's banking and maybe not everyone experiences that 629 00:33:46,685 --> 00:33:49,565 Speaker 2: A lot of them experience a lot of harsh corporal 630 00:33:49,605 --> 00:33:53,285 Speaker 2: punishment of children and on the very beginning of the 631 00:33:53,325 --> 00:33:57,565 Speaker 2: spectrum babies because Michael Pearl's books talk about switching through 632 00:33:57,565 --> 00:33:59,765 Speaker 2: blanket training, which begins at four months old. 633 00:33:59,885 --> 00:34:02,685 Speaker 1: What's blanket training? Can you explain what blanket training is? 634 00:34:03,085 --> 00:34:06,885 Speaker 2: Yes, Blanket training is a behavior modification practice that begins 635 00:34:06,885 --> 00:34:09,605 Speaker 2: in infancy. So as soon as the baby starts to move, 636 00:34:10,325 --> 00:34:12,245 Speaker 2: put them on a blanket, and every time they try 637 00:34:12,285 --> 00:34:15,045 Speaker 2: to crawl off of the blanket through a normal child 638 00:34:15,125 --> 00:34:18,805 Speaker 2: development of exploration, you stop them and swat them and 639 00:34:18,845 --> 00:34:19,365 Speaker 2: tell them no. 640 00:34:19,685 --> 00:34:21,605 Speaker 1: When you say swat, does that mean hit? 641 00:34:22,005 --> 00:34:25,485 Speaker 2: Yes, you hit them with any kind of switch approved switch. 642 00:34:25,605 --> 00:34:28,925 Speaker 2: So they recommend it a twig, a stick, a twig, 643 00:34:29,085 --> 00:34:33,685 Speaker 2: a piece of plumbing, PVC plumbing, pipe, glue sticks, flexible 644 00:34:33,725 --> 00:34:37,245 Speaker 2: craft glue sticks. There's a number of implements they recommend. 645 00:34:37,325 --> 00:34:40,285 Speaker 2: But you start as a baby and you teach that 646 00:34:40,405 --> 00:34:43,205 Speaker 2: baby to not move unless you've. 647 00:34:43,005 --> 00:34:47,925 Speaker 1: Given it permission. My god, it's barbaric. It sounds illegal. 648 00:34:48,485 --> 00:34:49,405 Speaker 1: Is it not illegal? 649 00:34:49,685 --> 00:34:53,805 Speaker 2: It should be, Oh, it should be. In America, spanking 650 00:34:53,885 --> 00:34:57,845 Speaker 2: children is legal and children have died from it, but 651 00:34:57,965 --> 00:35:01,165 Speaker 2: they are still publishing, and they are still practicing. And 652 00:35:01,285 --> 00:35:05,045 Speaker 2: this movement fights very hard in court to protect parent 653 00:35:05,205 --> 00:35:09,645 Speaker 2: rights over children's rights. So in the Christian page rich 654 00:35:09,805 --> 00:35:12,525 Speaker 2: children have no rights. Neither do women, and so that's 655 00:35:12,605 --> 00:35:14,645 Speaker 2: not the mindset they're operating from. 656 00:35:15,005 --> 00:35:19,685 Speaker 1: You mentioned wife spanking. Did that actually happen to you? 657 00:35:20,285 --> 00:35:24,005 Speaker 2: It did. It's a practice called Christian domestic discipline. I 658 00:35:24,045 --> 00:35:27,125 Speaker 2: said in Chiny Happy people like a careful read of 659 00:35:27,845 --> 00:35:31,565 Speaker 2: these books on discipline, Michael Pearls to train up a child, 660 00:35:31,565 --> 00:35:34,925 Speaker 2: being an example of many. They don't have an age 661 00:35:34,965 --> 00:35:37,645 Speaker 2: limit on when you should stop spanking your child. So 662 00:35:37,805 --> 00:35:40,405 Speaker 2: if you listen to survivors of these movements, you will 663 00:35:40,445 --> 00:35:45,525 Speaker 2: hear older daughters spanked by their fathers into their young adulthood, 664 00:35:45,605 --> 00:35:48,285 Speaker 2: and you will hear wives who have been spanked. It 665 00:35:48,405 --> 00:35:50,845 Speaker 2: is tied up in the theology that tells a man 666 00:35:50,925 --> 00:35:53,765 Speaker 2: that he's responsible for everything that happens in his home 667 00:35:54,245 --> 00:35:56,965 Speaker 2: and he's answerable to God for all of the behavior. 668 00:35:57,085 --> 00:35:59,685 Speaker 2: And so that's how it's sold that you need to 669 00:35:59,845 --> 00:36:03,525 Speaker 2: hold her accountable and train her because her choices are 670 00:36:03,565 --> 00:36:06,085 Speaker 2: going to reflect on you on judgment day. 671 00:36:06,565 --> 00:36:09,045 Speaker 1: Women can't vote, can they? They're not allowed to vote. 672 00:36:09,365 --> 00:36:11,445 Speaker 2: It's not as clean cut as that. I was not 673 00:36:11,485 --> 00:36:15,085 Speaker 2: allowed to vote, and they don't prefer women to vote, 674 00:36:15,125 --> 00:36:17,805 Speaker 2: but they will utilize the female vote if the popular 675 00:36:17,925 --> 00:36:21,885 Speaker 2: numbers are close, and in American elections lately they've been 676 00:36:22,005 --> 00:36:24,405 Speaker 2: very close, and so women are allowed to vote, but 677 00:36:24,405 --> 00:36:27,965 Speaker 2: they're expected to vote in compliance with their head of household. 678 00:36:27,765 --> 00:36:30,165 Speaker 1: So that husband tells them who to vote for. Yes, 679 00:36:30,645 --> 00:36:34,445 Speaker 1: you mentioned how Clara then losing her cracked you open. 680 00:36:35,965 --> 00:36:39,125 Speaker 1: Was there a definitive moment when you decided that enough 681 00:36:39,205 --> 00:36:39,725 Speaker 1: was enough? 682 00:36:40,325 --> 00:36:43,245 Speaker 2: It took me seven more years to reach that point. 683 00:36:43,485 --> 00:36:46,245 Speaker 2: I really came home from the hospital with this endeavor 684 00:36:46,285 --> 00:36:48,485 Speaker 2: to be the best Christian wife and mother I could be. 685 00:36:49,045 --> 00:36:52,525 Speaker 2: I felt emboldened in my faith. I felt empowered by christ. 686 00:36:52,605 --> 00:36:56,045 Speaker 2: I felt like I'd seen an example of strength and 687 00:36:56,085 --> 00:36:58,965 Speaker 2: power and that I could color inside the lines, so 688 00:36:59,045 --> 00:37:02,645 Speaker 2: to speak. And that really did work to a point. 689 00:37:02,885 --> 00:37:06,605 Speaker 2: I had two more children after Clara, and four more pregnancies. 690 00:37:06,885 --> 00:37:08,965 Speaker 2: It was life, you know. I did not realize that 691 00:37:09,405 --> 00:37:12,565 Speaker 2: there was not an entertaining again of getting out. It's 692 00:37:12,645 --> 00:37:14,965 Speaker 2: till depth of you part, even if it's at his hands, 693 00:37:15,485 --> 00:37:17,965 Speaker 2: And it did come down to that. I think one 694 00:37:18,045 --> 00:37:21,605 Speaker 2: of the traits that I have as a Christian girl 695 00:37:21,685 --> 00:37:25,325 Speaker 2: groomed to people please and fawn. I tend to stay 696 00:37:25,445 --> 00:37:28,485 Speaker 2: in environments longer than I should. I can see the 697 00:37:28,525 --> 00:37:31,125 Speaker 2: writing on the wall, and then I lack the courage 698 00:37:31,205 --> 00:37:33,885 Speaker 2: to save myself and take myself out of that. It's 699 00:37:33,885 --> 00:37:37,205 Speaker 2: a life discipline I'm working on, and this is the 700 00:37:37,205 --> 00:37:39,605 Speaker 2: biggest example of it. I had to get to a 701 00:37:39,645 --> 00:37:42,525 Speaker 2: place where he was about to kill us. I had 702 00:37:42,525 --> 00:37:45,725 Speaker 2: to realize I was grooming the next generation of abusers 703 00:37:46,165 --> 00:37:47,885 Speaker 2: in order to put my foot down and say enough 704 00:37:47,965 --> 00:37:50,085 Speaker 2: is enough. And then when you try to leave an 705 00:37:50,085 --> 00:37:52,765 Speaker 2: abusive person, it becomes much more dangerous and violent, and 706 00:37:52,805 --> 00:37:54,645 Speaker 2: that's what happened. Then violence escalated. 707 00:37:55,165 --> 00:37:57,205 Speaker 1: You wrote in the book that as you began to 708 00:37:57,245 --> 00:38:00,845 Speaker 1: find your power, your husband reacted very badly, and you 709 00:38:00,885 --> 00:38:03,685 Speaker 1: wrote balance was a delusion. As I became more independent 710 00:38:03,725 --> 00:38:07,365 Speaker 1: and healthy, high control, religion and domestic abuse tightened their grip, 711 00:38:07,765 --> 00:38:10,885 Speaker 1: my husband became more erratic and dangerous. You know. October 712 00:38:10,965 --> 00:38:13,725 Speaker 1: of two thousand and seven, things came to a violent 713 00:38:13,765 --> 00:38:16,285 Speaker 1: head and I narrowly escaped with my children in the 714 00:38:16,285 --> 00:38:19,485 Speaker 1: middle of the night. What happened on that night if 715 00:38:19,565 --> 00:38:21,525 Speaker 1: it's not too distressing to recount. 716 00:38:22,285 --> 00:38:24,965 Speaker 2: Sure, I'm going to give you like the high level version. 717 00:38:25,845 --> 00:38:28,245 Speaker 2: I knew that I had to leave, and I had 718 00:38:28,285 --> 00:38:31,085 Speaker 2: been making arrangements to leave the next day with my 719 00:38:31,205 --> 00:38:34,405 Speaker 2: children while he was at work. We had gone trick 720 00:38:34,445 --> 00:38:36,645 Speaker 2: or treating, which was the first time our children had 721 00:38:36,645 --> 00:38:39,165 Speaker 2: participated in Halloween and was part of a kind of 722 00:38:39,245 --> 00:38:41,765 Speaker 2: new progressive community that we were in, and I felt 723 00:38:41,805 --> 00:38:44,485 Speaker 2: like excited that they could do that, you know, I 724 00:38:44,485 --> 00:38:47,165 Speaker 2: didn't want to take that from them prematurely. So we 725 00:38:47,245 --> 00:38:50,805 Speaker 2: had gone trigger treating, and after we got home, he 726 00:38:50,925 --> 00:38:53,405 Speaker 2: had some sort of psychotic break. I really don't have 727 00:38:53,645 --> 00:38:56,365 Speaker 2: good language for what happened with the inside of him, 728 00:38:56,605 --> 00:38:59,405 Speaker 2: other than that he snapped. He held me hostage for 729 00:38:59,405 --> 00:39:02,085 Speaker 2: four hours with the length of firewood, threatening to kill 730 00:39:02,125 --> 00:39:05,165 Speaker 2: me and kill the children. And then he suddenly left, 731 00:39:05,285 --> 00:39:09,165 Speaker 2: and I heard a voice in my head, in my mind, 732 00:39:09,325 --> 00:39:12,365 Speaker 2: my heart that said run. So I packed us up, 733 00:39:12,525 --> 00:39:15,285 Speaker 2: grabbed the laundry and the children and my laptop, and 734 00:39:15,405 --> 00:39:17,925 Speaker 2: I left. And he had gone to his office to 735 00:39:17,965 --> 00:39:20,445 Speaker 2: get his gun. So if I had stayed, we wouldn't 736 00:39:20,485 --> 00:39:23,605 Speaker 2: be having this conversation right now. We drove away. 737 00:39:24,205 --> 00:39:26,605 Speaker 1: Oh my God, how old were your children. 738 00:39:26,285 --> 00:39:28,525 Speaker 2: Then ten and down ten to two and a half. 739 00:39:28,965 --> 00:39:33,365 Speaker 1: How old were you thirty three? And you mentioned grabbing 740 00:39:33,405 --> 00:39:35,885 Speaker 1: your laptop. There was a group of an online group 741 00:39:35,925 --> 00:39:40,805 Speaker 1: of women who became your lifeline and really showed you 742 00:39:40,885 --> 00:39:44,565 Speaker 1: the door and the possibility that there was a way out. 743 00:39:44,765 --> 00:39:47,165 Speaker 1: How did you come upon them and how did they 744 00:39:47,165 --> 00:39:49,165 Speaker 1: play a role before that night happened? 745 00:39:49,845 --> 00:39:52,205 Speaker 2: Way back, we go back into the timeline to when 746 00:39:52,245 --> 00:39:55,205 Speaker 2: Clara died. Just after that, my oldest was old enough 747 00:39:55,205 --> 00:39:58,845 Speaker 2: for homeschooling, and I had stumbled on the homeschooling forums 748 00:39:58,845 --> 00:40:01,325 Speaker 2: that had just formed. The Internet was brand new, you know, 749 00:40:01,365 --> 00:40:04,445 Speaker 2: we were all pioneers in this new technology. I had 750 00:40:04,445 --> 00:40:06,845 Speaker 2: a way to connect the outside world from home. And 751 00:40:06,885 --> 00:40:10,245 Speaker 2: it is a big, big through line of how I 752 00:40:10,285 --> 00:40:14,205 Speaker 2: survived this mentally, how I educated myself and the connections 753 00:40:14,245 --> 00:40:16,885 Speaker 2: that I made that were outside of the religious groups 754 00:40:16,885 --> 00:40:19,325 Speaker 2: that we were in. And they were other Christian women 755 00:40:19,405 --> 00:40:23,285 Speaker 2: going through very similar dynamics with different expressions. Like none 756 00:40:23,325 --> 00:40:25,205 Speaker 2: of them were like in as much high control as 757 00:40:25,205 --> 00:40:27,965 Speaker 2: I was, but they had toxicity in their marriages, and 758 00:40:28,005 --> 00:40:30,165 Speaker 2: they had family dynamics where we could relate to one 759 00:40:30,165 --> 00:40:32,525 Speaker 2: another and talk in a real way about what the 760 00:40:32,565 --> 00:40:35,285 Speaker 2: kinds of things we were facing. And I had also 761 00:40:35,525 --> 00:40:38,285 Speaker 2: started a business by the time I left, a blogging business, 762 00:40:38,285 --> 00:40:41,325 Speaker 2: and I had a successful website at that time. So 763 00:40:41,365 --> 00:40:43,605 Speaker 2: I grabbed my laptop because I knew my livelihood was 764 00:40:43,605 --> 00:40:46,245 Speaker 2: in it in all of my contacts, and those women 765 00:40:46,365 --> 00:40:48,925 Speaker 2: helped me hide. They sheltered me and took me in. 766 00:40:49,005 --> 00:40:52,005 Speaker 2: And I do believe I know that we're seeing this again. 767 00:40:52,085 --> 00:40:56,605 Speaker 2: There's underground railroads forming of women connected to women, helping 768 00:40:56,645 --> 00:41:00,485 Speaker 2: one another out of dangerous situations, and in America, you know, 769 00:41:00,685 --> 00:41:03,405 Speaker 2: helping women get abortions, helping women find health care and 770 00:41:03,885 --> 00:41:07,405 Speaker 2: resources and get out of domestic violence. So they saved 771 00:41:07,445 --> 00:41:10,045 Speaker 2: my life, they really did, and they kept my children's 772 00:41:10,045 --> 00:41:12,525 Speaker 2: world somewhat balanced during that time. 773 00:41:13,165 --> 00:41:15,885 Speaker 1: Was there a moment where you thought, Okay, I've done it, 774 00:41:15,965 --> 00:41:18,445 Speaker 1: I've left and I can't return to that life. 775 00:41:18,925 --> 00:41:21,885 Speaker 2: It was that night. Yeah, that was done. It was 776 00:41:21,885 --> 00:41:22,845 Speaker 2: a complete severance. 777 00:41:23,285 --> 00:41:25,565 Speaker 1: And what happened after that? What was the next twelve 778 00:41:25,565 --> 00:41:27,205 Speaker 1: months like for you and your kids? 779 00:41:27,925 --> 00:41:31,725 Speaker 2: We had to go into hiding. We started divorce proceedings, 780 00:41:31,845 --> 00:41:35,045 Speaker 2: which had to be separated from the custody proceedings because 781 00:41:35,045 --> 00:41:39,405 Speaker 2: those required forensic investigations. The violence continued, and it was 782 00:41:40,085 --> 00:41:43,245 Speaker 2: about a ten year process of all of that. You 783 00:41:43,285 --> 00:41:46,845 Speaker 2: don't get divorced cleanly from someone like that and easily. 784 00:41:47,565 --> 00:41:49,765 Speaker 2: But I was also going through trauma therapy through those 785 00:41:49,845 --> 00:41:51,965 Speaker 2: years and putting my life back together. I mean, I 786 00:41:52,005 --> 00:41:56,965 Speaker 2: really did set to healing, raising my kids, securing my employment, 787 00:41:57,285 --> 00:41:59,565 Speaker 2: getting on my feet, and I had it in this 788 00:41:59,685 --> 00:42:02,525 Speaker 2: context that this bad marriage happened to us. It wasn't 789 00:42:02,725 --> 00:42:05,725 Speaker 2: till years later in therapy when I had to start 790 00:42:06,125 --> 00:42:09,845 Speaker 2: reversing my decision making process and exploring what made me 791 00:42:10,205 --> 00:42:12,965 Speaker 2: make those choices in the first place, what made me 792 00:42:13,245 --> 00:42:15,365 Speaker 2: go along and comply, And that's what led me to 793 00:42:15,405 --> 00:42:18,925 Speaker 2: the religious trauma and understanding the grooming and conditioning I'd 794 00:42:18,965 --> 00:42:20,645 Speaker 2: been part of as a younger woman. 795 00:42:21,405 --> 00:42:25,685 Speaker 1: How do you unbrainwash yourself, because essentially you've been brainwashed 796 00:42:25,685 --> 00:42:28,885 Speaker 1: since the age of ten about even how you think. 797 00:42:28,965 --> 00:42:30,605 Speaker 1: One of the things that struck me so much in 798 00:42:30,645 --> 00:42:33,725 Speaker 1: your book, you told me, You told me, you wrote 799 00:42:33,765 --> 00:42:36,605 Speaker 1: that you couldn't even write a journal because you didn't 800 00:42:36,605 --> 00:42:39,325 Speaker 1: even have any privacy of thought. You were worried that 801 00:42:39,445 --> 00:42:42,965 Speaker 1: God would see it, or that your husband might find it. 802 00:42:43,005 --> 00:42:45,685 Speaker 1: Because you had no right to say no, I don't 803 00:42:45,725 --> 00:42:49,405 Speaker 1: want you to read this. How do you undo that? 804 00:42:50,445 --> 00:42:55,045 Speaker 2: It's a mixture of big BINGI growth spurts, and then 805 00:42:55,165 --> 00:42:59,965 Speaker 2: a lot of careful day to day retraining rediscovery. I 806 00:43:00,045 --> 00:43:05,205 Speaker 2: prefer like to emphasize curiosity and question asking and meditation. 807 00:43:05,445 --> 00:43:08,125 Speaker 2: I have come up with my own steps of recovery 808 00:43:08,165 --> 00:43:10,845 Speaker 2: and my own process of and I've had breakthroughs along 809 00:43:10,885 --> 00:43:14,565 Speaker 2: the way that I'm writing about now. But there were 810 00:43:14,605 --> 00:43:17,325 Speaker 2: also giant moments, like when Clara died. That was a 811 00:43:17,365 --> 00:43:19,805 Speaker 2: giant moment where a lot of the spell was broken 812 00:43:19,845 --> 00:43:23,125 Speaker 2: in my mind and I was curious and wanted to learn. 813 00:43:23,725 --> 00:43:26,845 Speaker 2: And then there were harder times where I have deeply 814 00:43:26,885 --> 00:43:31,565 Speaker 2: embedded patterns of fawning and people pleasing and cooperation, and 815 00:43:32,005 --> 00:43:35,285 Speaker 2: I have to really work on situation by situation and 816 00:43:35,365 --> 00:43:38,165 Speaker 2: carefully with a therapist. So it's a little mixture of both. 817 00:43:38,765 --> 00:43:41,725 Speaker 2: But I did not accept that. I wouldn't heal like 818 00:43:41,925 --> 00:43:43,245 Speaker 2: I want that from my life. 819 00:43:46,045 --> 00:43:48,685 Speaker 1: Well, this is not the end to your story, not 820 00:43:48,725 --> 00:43:50,725 Speaker 1: by a long shot, because it takes a lot more 821 00:43:50,725 --> 00:43:53,565 Speaker 1: than leaving a marriage to leave a cult. How do 822 00:43:53,605 --> 00:43:57,725 Speaker 1: you unbrainwash yourself? How do you trust again, find love again, 823 00:43:58,365 --> 00:44:00,645 Speaker 1: and learn how to be a grown woman in a 824 00:44:00,685 --> 00:44:04,405 Speaker 1: world that you'd been kept apart from for so long. 825 00:44:05,245 --> 00:44:08,085 Speaker 1: And what is ta you think about tradwives like Hannah 826 00:44:08,125 --> 00:44:11,045 Speaker 1: Nielman in Ballerina Farm who are trying to sell this 827 00:44:11,165 --> 00:44:14,565 Speaker 1: life to a whole new generation of women. There's so 828 00:44:14,645 --> 00:44:17,005 Speaker 1: much more of this incredible conversation, more than we could 829 00:44:17,045 --> 00:44:19,605 Speaker 1: share in one episode here. So if you're not already 830 00:44:19,605 --> 00:44:21,805 Speaker 1: a Mum of Me a subscriber, let this be the 831 00:44:21,845 --> 00:44:24,925 Speaker 1: episode that makes you one. I'll put a link in 832 00:44:24,925 --> 00:44:26,925 Speaker 1: the show notes and I'll see you in Part two.