Speaker 1: I got sacked on Maternityly, jess you didn't get sacked,
Speaker 1: you got boned the I cannot stand that word, and
Speaker 1: I wish people wouldn't use it because I find it
Speaker 1: so offensive.
Speaker 2: It has really stuck though.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 3: I'm kateline Brook and my guest on No Filter today
Speaker 3: is Jessica Rowe. Jess has spent much of her life
Speaker 3: in the public eye as a journalist and TV presenter.
Speaker 3: She delivered the news into Australian homes for decades, but
Speaker 3: she also became the story. She was criticized for her
Speaker 3: laugh her appearance, her personality. She was publicly humiliated during
Speaker 3: what became one of the most difficult periods of her life.
Speaker 3: She became the face of a media storm that years
Speaker 3: later still resonates with women across the country. But what
Speaker 3: fascinates me about Jessica isn't what happened to her. It's
Speaker 3: who she became afterwards. Because somewhere along the way, Jessica
Speaker 3: stopped trying to be perfect. She stopped apologizing for taking
Speaker 3: up space, She started snorting again when she laughed. She
Speaker 3: stopped shrinking herself to make other people comfortable. Today, she's
Speaker 3: one of Australia's most recognizable advocates for mental health, the
Speaker 3: creator of the wildly successful Crap Housewife movement, a podcaster, author,
Speaker 3: mother wife, and perhaps most importantly, she's entirely herself.
Speaker 2: This is Jessica Rowe, jess Row, Welcome to lay Filter. Ah,
Speaker 2: you too.
Speaker 3: I think this is a conversation that's been a long
Speaker 3: time coming, because it seems to me that you've been
Speaker 3: such a presence in our media lives for a long time.
Speaker 3: But I haven't heard a lot of you on your podcast,
Speaker 3: which is great. I love some big talk. It's about
Speaker 3: the other person. This is about you, and you've not
Speaker 3: always been a person that puts yourself forward first.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's very say each of you.
Speaker 1: I think to say that because I'm someone who I
Speaker 1: think I'm never good at putting myself first. No, you
Speaker 1: don't seem like you are. I always look after everyone
Speaker 1: else around me. So it's an interesting question I think
Speaker 1: that you ask, and I think it's an interesting time
Speaker 1: that I'm at in my life now right, I'm fifty six.
Speaker 2: You just had a birthday. Happy birthday, thank you.
Speaker 1: And I mean I love getting older, I really do.
Speaker 1: And I know some people say, oh, what do you love?
Speaker 1: Because I'm more comfortable with who I am right and
Speaker 1: I'm a far happier person now than I was as
Speaker 1: a teenager, as a twenty something, as a thirty something,
Speaker 1: and really probably as a forty something year old.
Speaker 2: I feel that I'm coming more into my own You know,
Speaker 2: when you say you're more comfortable with who you are?
Speaker 2: Who are you? I am? You know what? I am?
Speaker 1: Quirky, eccentric, messy, funny, compassionate, warm, and am passionate about
Speaker 1: the people in my life. I'm someone who is unapologetic
Speaker 1: about chasing joy. I want to surround myself more and
Speaker 1: more with good people, and I want to do things
Speaker 1: in my life that fill me up as opposed to
Speaker 1: deplete you yeah, or things that you feel that you
Speaker 1: have to do. What's interesting about you that I never
Speaker 1: knew was that you've almost got an old fashioned start
Speaker 1: to the business in that you were a receptionist at
Speaker 1: Channel nine, a receptionist at the Wide World of Sports.
Speaker 1: Really I I did a journalism degree at Bathurst at
Speaker 1: what was called Mitchell College became Charlestad University. Loved it,
Speaker 1: absolutely loved it. Because I'd grown up in Sydney. I
Speaker 1: was very much a city girl, and I've had this
Speaker 1: opportunity to move to study and I was nervous because
Speaker 1: it was a big step. It was brand new living
Speaker 1: in the country and I'm so glad I did it.
Speaker 1: So I had a ball at Uni. I took a
Speaker 1: year off. Actually I took two years off because I
Speaker 1: deferred my first year, studied for two years, took another
Speaker 1: year off and traveled, and then it was really hard
Speaker 1: to get back to finish my degree. And I remember
Speaker 1: my mom's the probably but I remember Mum sage me. Now, Jessica,
Speaker 1: you do realize that most prisoners escape from jail when
Speaker 1: their parole, their parole is almost about to appear. Do
Speaker 1: not escape, you know you've done so much.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad I went back to finish my degree.
Speaker 1: And I realized though, because I had done quite a
Speaker 1: lot of work experience over that time, and I knew
Speaker 1: I just had to get a start.
Speaker 2: And that start was a receptionist.
Speaker 1: Like I sent out video VHS tapes. This was in
Speaker 1: the days of your VHS tapes and of me networks
Speaker 1: or works still all sorts, you know, to news rooms
Speaker 1: all around Australia, and then and cover letters and then
Speaker 1: I got a sort of a job as a receptionist.
Speaker 2: I thought, well, you know what, I'm going to take this.
Speaker 1: It's a start, because someone had said to me early on,
Speaker 1: take whatever job you can get, doesn't matter what it is,
Speaker 1: get your foot in the door. And once you're there,
Speaker 1: then you'll meet people, and also you'll work out if
Speaker 1: you really like it, is this what you want to
Speaker 1: be doing. So I remember, though I was the world's
Speaker 1: worst receptionist. I'm not surprised because I'm not organized. And
Speaker 1: I got flustered. And this was again like phones that
Speaker 1: you'd have to push for runs connect people.
Speaker 2: And I would hang up on people all the time.
Speaker 1: And I knew nothing about sport. I hate cricket. I
Speaker 1: still hate cricket. It's so boring.
Speaker 2: I love Formula one.
Speaker 1: Now I didn't at the time appreciate it, but there'd
Speaker 1: be people ringing up wanting the latest results on this
Speaker 1: and that and yeah, so that that was my very
Speaker 1: first job.
Speaker 3: And yet you must have been there was something about
Speaker 3: you which must have been your personality, because it certainly
Speaker 3: wasn't your your technical prowess.
Speaker 1: Well, I think, yeah, perhaps it was my willingness to
Speaker 1: just give it a go, and I was enthusiastic. I've
Speaker 1: always been an enthusiast for life, and I think that's important.
Speaker 1: I don't know where, Well, where did that come from?
Speaker 1: My what was your upbringing? Where were you what was
Speaker 1: your family? And who were you in the family.
Speaker 2: I was the eldest.
Speaker 1: My parents divorce when I was younger, and yes, I
Speaker 1: was the eldest. So I was very much the capable one,
Speaker 1: the tap answer of the real you were.
Speaker 2: The cave Yes, I was. Can you believe it? Well,
Speaker 2: you see, you know what.
Speaker 1: It's funny you say that, cake because I'm a lot
Speaker 1: of life skills I'm not capable at, but the big
Speaker 1: things I am very capable. So I'm capable in the
Speaker 1: emotional matters. But when it comes to oh my god,
Speaker 1: I've got to pay this bill, or I've got registered, Yes,
Speaker 1: I've got to register the car, like what, I don't
Speaker 1: know how to do that.
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not capable in that way.
Speaker 3: So when you so after being a receptionist, who noticed you?
Speaker 1: Well, what I did when I was a receptionist on
Speaker 1: the weekends, I was what was called a production assistant,
Speaker 1: which essentially meant running around with paper scripts for the presenters.
Speaker 1: So I was wearing overalls cater but like you're wears,
Speaker 1: running the scripts around and there was a particular producer
Speaker 1: and I was chatting to him about what I wanted
Speaker 1: to do, and he said to me, why don't you
Speaker 1: put your voice on this script and we'll just put
Speaker 1: it to air because at the time with the Whiteboard
Speaker 1: of Sports that they had enormous programming on the weekends.
Speaker 1: There was Sports Sunday Wide, World of Sports, there was
Speaker 1: sports updates.
Speaker 2: So I remember it was the Stall Gift, which is
Speaker 2: like the.
Speaker 1: Race in the Race Yes, which I still All I
Speaker 1: know about the Stall Gift is that was my very
Speaker 1: first voiceover, and so this particular producer said to me,
Speaker 1: let's do it, and so I put it down and
Speaker 1: they ran it on a news update and on the Tuesday,
Speaker 1: no it was the Wednesday, because we get Monday Tuesday
Speaker 1: off because we work weekends. My boss called me in
Speaker 1: and said, along with the producer, I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you about this. And I thought, oh, no, I'm
Speaker 1: in trouble. And he said, I heard your voice on
Speaker 1: the weekend. I was pleasantly surprised. I went yes, and
Speaker 1: then he said, oh, you can keep doing that.
Speaker 2: So that was you're entree a beginning.
Speaker 1: But at the same token, I knew I was not
Speaker 1: a sportsperson and that wasn't going to be where I
Speaker 1: would keep working in the sense of I thought, well,
Speaker 1: here's my foot.
Speaker 2: I've got my foot in the door.
Speaker 1: And I was still sending out VHS tapes to people,
Speaker 1: and I.
Speaker 2: Ended up.
Speaker 1: Getting an interview with a beautiful man called Ken Beg
Speaker 1: who became a mentor of mine. And he was working
Speaker 1: in Canberra and he was head of the newsroom for
Speaker 1: Prime Television and he'd been a longtime Channel seven political
Speaker 1: reporter but he was now a news director and I
Speaker 1: happened he happened to see my VHS tape and he
Speaker 1: was looking for a weather presenter ah, and he got
Speaker 1: in touch with me, flew me down for an interview,
Speaker 1: and I mean a few things didn't happen in terms
Speaker 1: of someone else got the job, but in the end
Speaker 1: this particular person couldn't take the job. So Ken got
Speaker 1: back in touch with me and said, I'd really like
Speaker 1: you to have this role. So I went down to
Speaker 1: Canberra and I became I was a weather presenter and
Speaker 1: a reporter and it was the best possible job because Ken,
Speaker 1: I think if I didn't have him as a mentor,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have stayed in television because he believed in me.
Speaker 1: He gave me confidence, he let me make mistakes. I
Speaker 1: remember doing her because I was like anyone when you
Speaker 1: first begin, you are not you have a lot to learn, yes,
Speaker 1: And I remember my darling like grandmother saying to me,
Speaker 1: because she had copies of my early weather reports, Darling,
Speaker 1: you weren't very good?
Speaker 2: Were you quite terrible?
Speaker 1: And I was like, actually, you're right, I wasn't very
Speaker 1: good because you had never done it.
Speaker 2: I've never done it before.
Speaker 1: But I remember with Ken there was a particular night
Speaker 1: where because the weather for people who don't know so
Speaker 1: is often that's the stop gap with Sometimes you don't
Speaker 1: have much time, other times you've got.
Speaker 2: A lot of time.
Speaker 3: That's where they cushion time wise, whatever's happening in the bulletin.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, so sometimes you've got a lot of time,
Speaker 1: other times nothing. And this particular evening, a whole lot
Speaker 1: of stories had fallen over, so I had a lot
Speaker 1: to do. And but when you get nervous, you speak quickly.
Speaker 1: And I remember Ken coming into the studio and I'll
Speaker 1: never forget it. I was like looking down the barrel
Speaker 1: of the camera talking and he was just off camera
Speaker 1: and he was there going like this to me, slow down, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's okay. So he had me and he did that
Speaker 1: a number of times for me during those years, and
Speaker 1: so it allowed me to breathe and to believe in myself.
Speaker 1: And also beautiful Melissa Doyle was the newsreader and Meil
Speaker 1: was wonderful because she had had more experience than me,
Speaker 1: and she took me under her wing as well and
Speaker 1: gave me tips about because as well as doing the
Speaker 1: weather each night, I was doing two or three news
Speaker 1: stories a day, so it was a lot of work.
Speaker 1: And so she helped me with things to keep in
Speaker 1: mind when you're going out interviewing people and you've got
Speaker 1: to turn it around quickly. So there was a number
Speaker 1: of people who were very kind and also just just
Speaker 1: looked out for me. Right. So it was a great start.
Speaker 1: And you also had this work ethic, Yes, of course
Speaker 1: I did. I was ambitious and I still am ambitious.
Speaker 1: And I think as women sometimes especially that time when
Speaker 1: you're younger and in those decades, it's not a you're
Speaker 1: not encouraged to be ambitious or you can't own that's right,
Speaker 1: you have to act like la la la whatever. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: And I knew that I wanted to be someone.
Speaker 3: What did you want at that point? Like, what would
Speaker 3: have been the dream? Was it what you ended up
Speaker 3: doing on the Today Show?
Speaker 1: Well, I think my dreams changed over time, and I
Speaker 1: think as you grow through life, what you think you
Speaker 1: want isn't actually what you want, And so yes, I
Speaker 1: think definitely, then my dream would have been to be
Speaker 1: on the Telly in a sort of a national role,
Speaker 1: in a significant role, you know what. At the beginning,
Speaker 1: when I was in high school and then doing as
Speaker 1: a receptionist, I think I would have I wanted to
Speaker 1: be an overseas correspondent.
Speaker 2: Oh, I had dream years of that, but then flat jacket.
Speaker 2: Well yes, but then I helmet Yeah, all of that.
Speaker 1: But then I had girlfriends who would just laugh and go, no, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's not you.
Speaker 2: But and the same beautiful girlfriends.
Speaker 1: One of them now works at UNHCR and I used
Speaker 1: to at UNI. I'd buy I spend my money on shoes,
Speaker 1: and I'd have no money left for the week for food,
Speaker 1: and so I'd go around to her.
Speaker 2: House and she'd feed me. That was the start of
Speaker 2: her do gooding, and it was.
Speaker 1: But also it was kind of this sort of difference
Speaker 1: of I had in mind that's.
Speaker 2: What I wanted to do, but really is that what
Speaker 2: I wanted to do?
Speaker 1: And then you ended up being a news reader? Yeah,
Speaker 1: then I ended up so yeah, I did the weather.
Speaker 1: Then I moved to Melbourne where I was a reporter
Speaker 1: at GTV, and during that time I really.
Speaker 2: Thought I'm going to leave.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this anymore because it was
Speaker 1: not what I had imagined it would be. Did not
Speaker 1: like it at all. It was a really tough news room.
Speaker 1: I'm not someone who felt comfortable with the style of reports.
Speaker 1: Doorstops sort of right, well, it was, I mean that
Speaker 1: awful phrase death knocks, where you would have to go.
Speaker 2: And talk to people who had just lost a loved one.
Speaker 1: But what was very wonderful about that time is the
Speaker 1: crews that I worked with. There were some wonderful people
Speaker 1: that I worked with, some beautiful women in that newsroom,
Speaker 1: and we supported each other through quieter mucho environment. And
Speaker 1: so say, for example, with those death knocks, we would
Speaker 1: remember the crew saying to me early on we just
Speaker 1: call it knocking on the grass, so you don't actually
Speaker 1: go and do it. So essentially you just drive, you
Speaker 1: drive the news car around, you park outside the person's house, right,
Speaker 1: and you wouldn't do it, right, You tell your boss
Speaker 1: you did it, and they weren't there, Well exactly, Yeah,
Speaker 1: no one answered the door. So that idea of knocking
Speaker 1: on the grass was literally, yeah, you weren't knocking on
Speaker 1: their door.
Speaker 2: And yet you're a very compassionate person.
Speaker 1: Which was why I was not going to be knocking
Speaker 1: on someone's door who had just lost someone, because I
Speaker 1: think you are exploiting someone at the very worst time
Speaker 1: in their life, and that's.
Speaker 3: A very I mean, there are people who would say, well,
Speaker 3: that's the news and that's the job of the news,
Speaker 3: but it's not the news.
Speaker 2: But also it's.
Speaker 3: A very macho kind of thinking behind it. That also
Speaker 3: seemed to infect the whole probably the whole industry at
Speaker 3: that time, I imagine. And was that where you had
Speaker 3: incidences of sexual harassment? Yes, that was that same environment.
Speaker 3: How did that come about? And who were you in
Speaker 3: the context of that, very different than you are now?
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 1: It's a difficult thing to kind of think about it
Speaker 1: because it, unfortunately is something that has happened to far
Speaker 1: too many women. And it was at a time when
Speaker 1: you didn't feel you could speak up because there was
Speaker 1: a sense of you are so lucky to have this
Speaker 1: job and if you make waves, you will lose your job.
Speaker 1: And I remember, though, calling a very senior person saying,
Speaker 1: this has just happened to me, and what was it
Speaker 1: that had happened? Well, it was I had been It
Speaker 1: was sort of very narrow corridor and a particular man
Speaker 1: sort of rubbed up senior. It's very senior.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's always yes, yeah, okay, basically rubbed up against me.
Speaker 1: And it was one of those things where you think,
Speaker 1: has that happened? Have I? And it's that thread that
Speaker 1: so many women say, have I imagined that?
Speaker 2: Or was that just an accident? But it wasn't an accident.
Speaker 1: He really pushed his body up against me, and I
Speaker 1: was in a situation that I couldn't get out, and
Speaker 1: I remember the editor saying to me, are you all right?
Speaker 1: And I was like, ah, oh, I think so, but
Speaker 1: but it was awful, and and I called a very
Speaker 1: senior person and said this has happened, and it was
Speaker 1: then put back on me, well, what do you want
Speaker 1: to do about it?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And I knew I had to be quiet, and or
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say I knew I had to be quiet,
Speaker 1: but it was made clear to me.
Speaker 2: There would be a cost and you would be paying it.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was There'd be a consequence, and so it
Speaker 1: made me think, do I want to raise my voice
Speaker 1: about this? And what is so infuriating is I'm someone
Speaker 1: who I do raise my voice, but that's a voice
Speaker 1: that I've over time become more confident using. And I
Speaker 1: look at my daughters who are seventeen and nineteen, and
Speaker 1: they what I love is they raise their voice. They
Speaker 1: call stuff out and in a way that I did
Speaker 1: not have the confidence or the courage to do. Like
Speaker 1: when my daughter Allegro, who's now nineteen, when she was fourteen,
Speaker 1: she was out to dinner with a girlfriend and they
Speaker 1: were walking in Bondai, walking past a restaurant and there
Speaker 1: were these much older men sitting there looking them up
Speaker 1: and down and calling out to them, and Allegra basically
Speaker 1: turned round and said to this man, and I don't swear,
Speaker 1: so I'm not going to swear. But she said, get ft,
Speaker 1: how old are you I'm only fourteen.
Speaker 2: At the rush.
Speaker 1: And she told me that, and I was just like, oh,
Speaker 1: my darling, Yes, I mean there was two things.
Speaker 2: Actually, what would fourteen year old you have done in that?
Speaker 1: I would have scuttled away, Yes, yes, I would have thought,
Speaker 1: oh that's terrible, oh and sort of scuttled away. But
Speaker 1: there was a part of me that was I was
Speaker 1: thinking too with allegra, Oh no, be careful, because you
Speaker 1: don't know then if you yell at someone, what is
Speaker 1: there going to be how they actually reacts. Yes, But
Speaker 1: she said to me she already had a cupboard. She's like, mum.
Speaker 1: It was in a public place, those people all around,
Speaker 1: so and she said to me, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: let him get away with that.
Speaker 2: I'm fourteen. He was, you know, twenty plus years old.
Speaker 2: How disgusting. I do love it that.
Speaker 3: Our daughters, our collective daughters, stand on our shoulders because
Speaker 3: we have learnt how not to be. Yes more with
Speaker 3: Jess Row coming up. When you started on the Today Show,
Speaker 3: which was two thousand and six, which seemed like yes, yes, world,
Speaker 3: here I am glorious and ended up being a steaming
Speaker 3: part of murd.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you see, well Allegra, though Allegra wasn't born then.
Speaker 3: Right, So that was when you took the maternity leave.
Speaker 3: You were pregnant with Allegra exactly. So I got sacked
Speaker 3: on maternity leave, Jess. You didn't get sacked, You got boned.
Speaker 1: The eye cannot stand that word, and I wish people
Speaker 1: wouldn't use it because I find it so offensive.
Speaker 2: It has really stuck, though, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Because no, no, it's stuck as.
Speaker 3: A concept because the word itself denoted the truthfulness of
Speaker 3: what you were saying. Do you know what I mean
Speaker 3: of your experience? Because it was such a strange expression
Speaker 3: that at the time I wasn't really familiar with.
Speaker 1: You know, No, I hadn't heard it, and so you
Speaker 1: knew that it was in fact what had happened.
Speaker 3: But we've gone ahead of ourselves here because I'm struck
Speaker 3: by what you said earlier about who you are as
Speaker 3: a person, and I would take these things to be strengths.
Speaker 3: Your vivacity, your quirkiness, your colorfulness, your fine feathers of
Speaker 3: a fine bird. When you started the Today Show, which
Speaker 3: was with Karl Stefanovic, he was new to the role
Speaker 3: who had been doing it before him, and then before
Speaker 3: you Tracy Grimshaw, Oh okay, and she'd gone to do
Speaker 3: a current affair and he had not been doing it
Speaker 3: for particularly long himself.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: So I think I think he began with Tracy okay,
Speaker 1: all right, and then you got the gig.
Speaker 3: Now this reminds me of you know how people always
Speaker 3: say about a boat, it's the best day of your
Speaker 3: life and the worst day of your life. The best
Speaker 3: days when you get the boat. The two best days
Speaker 3: of your life the day you get the boat, the
Speaker 3: day you sell the boat. The best day of your
Speaker 3: life would have been getting that call about you're going
Speaker 3: to be the new co host of the Today Show.
Speaker 2: How was that? Well, I mean, it's funny. It's what
Speaker 2: I try and think about. That time is so two
Speaker 2: thousand and six, and that is now, what are we now?
Speaker 2: So twenty years ago? And I'm so mindful of.
Speaker 1: I don't want a particular time to then define everything
Speaker 1: about me and how people see me and view me.
Speaker 1: And I don't like to give certain people energy that
Speaker 1: they don't deserve or time, no and so, and I'm
Speaker 1: a huge believer in put the good energy here because
Speaker 1: they're not worthy of that negativity or.
Speaker 2: You don't want to feed the wrong farm. No, that's right.
Speaker 1: And but but on a more I suppose if I
Speaker 1: look at it more broadly, it getting the job, I mean,
Speaker 1: but a whole lot of things that happened because I
Speaker 1: had been taken to court before I got the job,
Speaker 1: because I left Channel and then they sued me for
Speaker 1: breach of contract. So they really wanted you. Well, actually
Speaker 1: they didn't, because I mean, the point is if anyway,
Speaker 1: but you know that's also a whole separate saga. So
Speaker 1: it when I got the offer, I was thinking, Yes,
Speaker 1: this is a dream come true.
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, this is what I've been working for. I'm
Speaker 2: perfect for your personality.
Speaker 1: Yes, this is I've dreamt of this, I've worked so hard.
Speaker 1: I was someone I'm different now, but I was someone
Speaker 1: who was very gold driven. If I do this, if
Speaker 1: I work hard, if I give these things up, if
Speaker 1: I focus here, it will pay off.
Speaker 2: So I had that mindset that isn't life.
Speaker 1: I've learnt that, But at the time I was very
Speaker 1: you know, you know, career you think is like steps upwards,
Speaker 1: but it's not.
Speaker 2: It's not near and it's messy. However, I didn't realize that.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, wonderful and I was so excited I
Speaker 4: couldn't believe it, And went through the court case that
Speaker 4: was horrific, finally got the okay to join Channel nine.
Speaker 2: Brilliant.
Speaker 1: So because there was already it was a perfect storm.
Speaker 1: There was the attention on me anyway because of the
Speaker 1: court case. Right, Channel nine was going through a massive
Speaker 1: cultural shift.
Speaker 3: That was when Eddie Maguire was the head of appointed
Speaker 3: the head of Channel nine.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, actually he wasn't when I began the Today Show,
Speaker 1: but then he shortly afterwards. So yes, it was this
Speaker 1: massive change, and so I was almost sort of the
Speaker 1: lightning rod for everything, escapegoat for want of a better word.
Speaker 1: But again, what's so important to me is that is
Speaker 1: just a weany part of my story, and it's a
Speaker 1: public part, but it's a small part, and I don't no, no,
Speaker 1: But the point is Jess, that that is what has
Speaker 1: led you to you now true is yes, of course,
Speaker 1: but such a crucial part of it because it was
Speaker 1: brutal and people experience things in life that a brutal
Speaker 1: all the time.
Speaker 2: As my mum says, in a positive way.
Speaker 1: The longer you live, the worst things are going to
Speaker 1: happen to you are okay, thanks mum, But yours happened
Speaker 1: really publicly. That has another that has another strata to
Speaker 1: it that is brutal. So you start the show in
Speaker 1: all good faith, all goodwill. I think the important thing
Speaker 1: to note too is that that has not occurred to
Speaker 1: me before.
Speaker 3: But you must have been so energetically different to your predecessor,
Speaker 3: who was Tracy Grimshaw, right, So that's a taste that
Speaker 3: the public then has to learn to deal with. People
Speaker 3: don't like change anyway in their viewing. So you come on.
Speaker 3: That's another lightning rod ass inspect and then suddenly you
Speaker 3: who comes in as our mutual friend Sarah Harris says,
Speaker 3: she said about you, she's pure sunshine.
Speaker 2: Oh I love Sarah.
Speaker 3: So you come in, You come in, pure sunshine, and
Speaker 3: what happens.
Speaker 1: Oh I I'll never forget. The next day, and this
Speaker 1: was before Twitter and all of it was before social media,
Speaker 1: so really.
Speaker 2: It was through It was newspapers, letters.
Speaker 1: To the editor, email was there, and letters probably snail mail, letters, cycles,
Speaker 1: all of that.
Speaker 2: But the day after I remember, and I was so excited.
Speaker 2: But then the day after I remember there was this.
Speaker 1: Article where I was likened to a velociraptor, you know
Speaker 1: those awful creatures, onto prehistoric basically, my hair, my weight,
Speaker 1: my love, everything. It was horrible. It was this awful
Speaker 1: article and I remember just initially going, oh, that's all.
Speaker 1: But often what happens is you think that's it. But
Speaker 1: it was. It wasn't the end of it. It was
Speaker 1: just the start of a very public almost a campaign. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't ever work out why. But again, I
Speaker 1: don't want to waste energy on that. But it began
Speaker 1: with this particular column, and then it just continued. And
Speaker 1: I'll never forget. There was this TV guide. It was
Speaker 1: when there was like color TV guides, and there was
Speaker 1: this headline, the most annoying person on television, and there
Speaker 1: was me.
Speaker 2: It was me.
Speaker 1: Oh and I remember opening that on a Sunday morning
Speaker 1: and just being in floods.
Speaker 2: Of tears because I thought, like what And.
Speaker 1: At the time, like Pede, my darling husband, he was
Speaker 1: doing sixty minutes, so he was away for eight months
Speaker 1: of the year.
Speaker 2: Wow. But so it just it just it kept going.
Speaker 2: When you opened the newspab that day, was he home
Speaker 2: or he was away?
Speaker 1: He was away, So you're on your own yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't but it was daily. And I remember
Speaker 1: again with the snail mail, that people would send me letters.
Speaker 1: And I remember this particular one someone had sent me
Speaker 1: again from a TV guide and they'd highlighted all the
Speaker 1: awful things and then write me a letter about how
Speaker 1: awful I was, and and it was it was mind
Speaker 1: boggling that people could be so cruel. And I remember
Speaker 1: then saying to the receptionist at nine, can you please
Speaker 1: go through my mail? So I I'm not already doing that, no,
Speaker 1: So there was no protection for you coming into this role.
Speaker 1: Knew nothing had been constructed around you, so I said,
Speaker 1: can you just make sure that that doesn't get to me?
Speaker 1: And so it was just this sense of it kept
Speaker 1: like things just kept happening, right, but and you were
Speaker 1: turning up every morning at three point forty five ding,
Speaker 1: And I'll never forget Kate, a particular boss saying to me, oh,
Speaker 1: there've been complaints about the way you laugh. Can you
Speaker 1: stop laughing? And I made the mistake of listening to him,
Speaker 1: so I stopped laughing for a time.
Speaker 2: Oh jeez.
Speaker 1: But it was a really good lesson because I now
Speaker 1: would never ever listen to someone telling me not to
Speaker 1: be myself?
Speaker 2: What are you without your laugh? Exactly? Who were you
Speaker 2: in that period?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Who was I? Indeed?
Speaker 1: And so because I was grappling with how do I
Speaker 1: fit this role, this mold of what they expect or
Speaker 1: what people want me to be like?
Speaker 2: But the real lesson for me.
Speaker 1: Was I will never ever listen to anyone telling me
Speaker 1: to be less than who I am. And that is
Speaker 1: something that I tell my daughters. Don't ever ever let
Speaker 1: anyone take your shine or your power of who you are.
Speaker 1: But when you're in the midst of this sort of time,
Speaker 1: you lose your way. And that was a mistake I made,
Speaker 1: but I would never do that again.
Speaker 2: The steel is.
Speaker 3: Tempered in the fire, of course, how else would you
Speaker 3: know that? Of course, how else would you have learnt that,
Speaker 3: to know how it is to be diminished and to
Speaker 3: know how it is to not be truthful to your
Speaker 3: essential self. The irony being that your essential self was
Speaker 3: what got you the job in the first place. Maybe
Speaker 3: because there was a changing of the guard. Do you
Speaker 3: think it had been you weren't the captain's pick?
Speaker 2: Again, I who knows?
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to waste energy on that, because
Speaker 1: what I want to think about that time is what
Speaker 1: I learned. I learned what I was made of. I
Speaker 1: learned what mattered and who matted. And even though I've
Speaker 1: mentioned the negative things, what kept me going was the
Speaker 1: kindness of people. There were beautiful people who would come
Speaker 1: up to me in the street and give me a
Speaker 1: hug and say we love you.
Speaker 2: Keep going.
Speaker 1: People knew then, yes, what people could tell, they would see,
Speaker 1: they could read things, they were hearing things. And then
Speaker 1: people would send me emails. People would send me letters.
Speaker 1: So thetionist, what she would do each morning was this
Speaker 1: was in the like Manila folders, that be a Manila
Speaker 1: folder in my dressing room that had all my scripts
Speaker 1: and things.
Speaker 2: Because she was a good receptionist.
Speaker 1: That's right, like me, right, she would have on the
Speaker 1: top of my notes all of the lovely emails from
Speaker 1: people that she would have there. So before I'd go on,
Speaker 1: there was all of this positivity. So that kept me going.
Speaker 1: I had amazing emails, letters, calls from people in the media,
Speaker 1: people I looked up to, people I've mired enormously, and
Speaker 1: that kept me going. The late great Peter Harvey, I
Speaker 1: remember he sent me a wonderful email about you know that,
Speaker 1: And it was so beautiful what he said about you
Speaker 1: know that it's the caravan or keep going, you know,
Speaker 1: just just keep on keeping on. And yeah, an event
Speaker 1: who I still want to be when I grow I
Speaker 1: remember she took me aside and said, hang in there,
Speaker 1: because when you least expect it, it's.
Speaker 2: Going to turn.
Speaker 1: And there will be no rival reason to why that
Speaker 1: it will suddenly turn.
Speaker 2: That you hang in and.
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I really discovered, and I've
Speaker 1: always been stubborn, but I thought, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: let other people win. The best thing I can do
Speaker 1: is show up every day and do my job.
Speaker 2: So sure, how you can get me.
Speaker 3: How long was that period of the of the vilification campaign,
Speaker 3: the whole time which was how.
Speaker 2: Long before you got pregnant?
Speaker 1: It was I got well, it's because I was going
Speaker 1: through IVF, so I became I think the in the
Speaker 1: August I might have announced I was pregnant, so eight
Speaker 1: months into the role, and yes, it would have been.
Speaker 1: And then I went on maternity leave and then didn't
Speaker 1: come back. But the sort of sense of showing up
Speaker 1: every day, yeah, the stubbornness, so I knew the thing
Speaker 1: is I knew that they wanted to get rid of me,
Speaker 1: and that they were going to get rid of me.
Speaker 2: I knew that. I knew that, but I thought, how
Speaker 2: did you know?
Speaker 1: Because if the vibe, but not even the vibe, if
Speaker 1: there is a negative campaign that is waged about you
Speaker 1: publicly across media.
Speaker 2: And then I remember, actually a Current.
Speaker 1: Affair did a story about me being the most annoying
Speaker 1: person on television what the same network?
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'd been told subsequently by a good friend
Speaker 1: that they had been publicity had been instructed not to
Speaker 1: do promote any story good stories about me.
Speaker 2: So I knew.
Speaker 1: So that was how I mean, if people want to
Speaker 1: look after you, you'll be looked after.
Speaker 3: Yes, and particularly particularly a network that had the might
Speaker 3: of Channel nine.
Speaker 2: At that time.
Speaker 1: So I knew they wanted to get rid of me,
Speaker 1: and I just thought, Okay, I'm going to make this
Speaker 1: really hard for you, in the sense of I'm going
Speaker 1: to keep showing up. What can I control in this situation.
Speaker 1: I can't control what these people think of me, what
Speaker 1: their plan is for me, but I can control how
Speaker 1: I show up every day.
Speaker 2: I'll be back with Jess Rowe after this short brain.
Speaker 3: I listened to your Big Talk, in fact, your first
Speaker 3: episode of your podcast, so twenty twenty one, I think,
Speaker 3: was with Karl Stefanovic, and he apologizes to you. It's
Speaker 3: a really beautiful apology. That guy's good at apologies, very
Speaker 3: good at apologies. He apologized to you. He said he
Speaker 3: was not the man he should have been, and he
Speaker 3: was not the co host he should have been. And
Speaker 3: it was only really through listening to that that I
Speaker 3: got the sense of how enormous it was what had
Speaker 3: happened to you. And it was the first time you'd
Speaker 3: really had a conversation about it, and that was what
Speaker 3: fifteen years after it had happened, and you said, it
Speaker 3: means a lot to me. I could hear how it
Speaker 3: helped rebuild something in you that, no matter how strong
Speaker 3: you are, and you were like a fortress, hearing the
Speaker 3: truth and hearing that it wasn't you. How did that feel?
Speaker 1: It was incredible you it wasn't me. But I think
Speaker 1: hearing cul apologize to me was very important because I
Speaker 1: had that was the first time we'd spoken.
Speaker 2: That's incredible, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard from him, and so it takes a lot.
Speaker 1: I think guts and courage on his behalf to show
Speaker 1: up and say that, because he could have said I'm
Speaker 1: not coming on your podcast.
Speaker 2: Well even and to be the first Geese.
Speaker 1: Yes, And it did mean a lot to me because
Speaker 1: we have to be able to have hard conversations about
Speaker 1: tough times in our life, and that was a particularly
Speaker 1: hard time. And it was also I suppose a recognition
Speaker 1: from him, Yes, that he had a responsibility too.
Speaker 2: Yes, that he had not lived up to that he'd
Speaker 2: let me down.
Speaker 1: Yes, so you're pregnant with Allegra, which should be a
Speaker 1: time of enormous joy.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: And the thing was that kept me going. She was
Speaker 1: my secret She was my real sense of you know what,
Speaker 1: all of this noise doesn't matter because I have something
Speaker 1: far more meaningful, powerful and important that is happening.
Speaker 3: Then Pete was away still, your husband was, yes, still overseas.
Speaker 3: So you're secretly pregnant. Well, yes, so.
Speaker 1: Secretly pregnant, And it was I waited, well, you know,
Speaker 1: you wait until the twelve week mark till you can
Speaker 1: tell people. But it was this wonderful time and I
Speaker 1: was not going to let anything detract from that. And
Speaker 1: having gone through IVF, I knew how precious.
Speaker 2: It was to have hard thought, Yes, and that was
Speaker 2: what mattered.
Speaker 1: So you're on matt leave, how do you find out
Speaker 1: that you've been boned again?
Speaker 2: That word cake, I.
Speaker 1: Know, but the word is, the word is has become
Speaker 1: a shorthand for we not only a sacking, but a
Speaker 1: certain experience of a sacking and a certain execution of something.
Speaker 1: It wasn't even sort of our right to begin with.
Speaker 1: It was suggested to me, well, what was happening was
Speaker 1: there were articles that were coming out about me.
Speaker 2: When I was on maternity leave already, and they weren't lovely,
Speaker 2: right Jess and her baby? Right?
Speaker 1: Okay, however, and then it was suggested, suggested to me
Speaker 1: that there was a press release released that because of
Speaker 1: the demands of motherhood, I decided to stand aside news
Speaker 1: to you. Yes, and I said, I'm not doing that
Speaker 1: and I'm not releasing that and because that isn't true,
Speaker 1: and then and they, I mean, I'm very I don't
Speaker 1: want to get into all the he said, she said,
Speaker 1: it's I don't think anything can be gained from that.
Speaker 1: Some I think someone was already employed to take over
Speaker 1: my role before I But but again, right, let's not
Speaker 1: get into all of that. And in the end, it
Speaker 1: was appalling that I remember having meetings with my lawyer,
Speaker 1: breastfeeding in the morning, putting breastpads into my bra, going
Speaker 1: to have meetings with my lawyer, and just thinking what
Speaker 1: has become of me? And I remember lying on my
Speaker 1: front lawn in tears, just thinking.
Speaker 2: What is going on?
Speaker 1: And I got to a point where I didn't have
Speaker 1: the energy to take them to court. And I was
Speaker 1: really torn because I thought, what am I going to
Speaker 1: tell Allegra about what I did in terms of standing
Speaker 1: up for what's right.
Speaker 2: But in the end, I decided I have to do
Speaker 2: what's right for me now. And you were also you
Speaker 2: had postpartum. I had post natal depression.
Speaker 1: However, it hadn't developed at that point, but it did develop,
Speaker 1: And you can say, why did I have postnatal depression?
Speaker 1: Combination of factors. It's very common women who have I
Speaker 1: go through IVS when you have a baby, the hormonal change,
Speaker 1: I have a family history of mental illness, my mum's
Speaker 1: got bipolar.
Speaker 2: And you have massive.
Speaker 1: Life changes at the same time, and you've been subjected
Speaker 1: to a campaign of public persecution.
Speaker 2: So I had all of that happening.
Speaker 1: So it's little wonder that I then developed postnatal depression,
Speaker 1: and in a funny way, I'm so I'm the way
Speaker 1: life does sort of turn out. It's again that was
Speaker 1: just a small part, public part. But I learned so
Speaker 1: much about myself, but then going through the postonatal depression,
Speaker 1: learning to be gentle on myself, learning that I didn't
Speaker 1: have to be perfect, and I thought I had to
Speaker 1: be perfect.
Speaker 2: In my career hard being perfect exactly. It didn't work.
Speaker 1: But and my career had always been i'll work hard,
Speaker 1: I'll get this result. I worked hard, finally had a baby.
Speaker 1: I was doing everything right, but I was falling apart
Speaker 1: as a mum. I felt like a failure. I didn't
Speaker 1: have a job. I'd been someone who had to find
Speaker 1: who I was through my identity through work.
Speaker 2: I didn't have that any longer.
Speaker 1: Felt like I was a failure And it was such
Speaker 1: an awful time in my life. And I never ever
Speaker 1: want another mum to feel as alone as I felt.
Speaker 1: And that's why I talk about my postonatal depression still,
Speaker 1: because it is the most isolating time, because there is
Speaker 1: this myth around motherhood still that it's meant to be
Speaker 1: the best time of your life and easy and you
Speaker 1: know what you're doing, And for a lot of women
Speaker 1: it's not, And that is not of your choosing. You
Speaker 1: simply have an illness that you need help to get through.
Speaker 1: Interesting though those external factors as well, to take those
Speaker 1: into account of what was happening to you internally?
Speaker 2: How was How was it?
Speaker 3: Because sometimes I think it's harder for the people that
Speaker 3: love you to watch you endure what's happening. Then it
Speaker 3: is even for you. It's hard enough for you. How
Speaker 3: is your husband? Because he was also at the same network,
Speaker 3: so that must have been crazy for him.
Speaker 2: Oh it was, and it was terrible for him.
Speaker 1: And there were a number of times where he was like,
Speaker 1: I'm leaving, and I said, you can't leave because or not,
Speaker 1: you can't leave, but why implode both of our careers.
Speaker 2: Don't do that.
Speaker 1: Not be the bigger person, but don't let this define everything.
Speaker 1: But yes, it was terribly hard for PD and he though,
Speaker 1: is such a darling man. And I mean I had
Speaker 1: I was able to pretend to him that I was
Speaker 1: all right because I was very good at putting on
Speaker 1: the mask. I'd had a life tiling, yes, of experience
Speaker 1: of doing it in my family, in my career. But
Speaker 1: I got to the point where I thought, I can't
Speaker 1: pretend anymore. I've got to tell him. And he was
Speaker 1: such a darling because he just took me in his
Speaker 1: arms and he said to me, it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1: And that's what you need to hear from someone when
Speaker 1: you tell them you're not coping.
Speaker 2: And what had you said to him?
Speaker 1: Well, I said, we've been talking and he was saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so you know, you're doing so well. And he
Speaker 1: calls me pussy cats. I'm a crazy cat lady. Oh,
Speaker 1: pussy cat, I'm so proud of you, and oh, so wonderful.
Speaker 1: And I said, well, I said, it's not. I said,
Speaker 1: I'm really frightened. I'm really frightened that I have postonatal depression.
Speaker 1: And he took me in his arms and he said
Speaker 1: it's going to be okay. And that was what I
Speaker 1: needed to hear, because it was so very scary saying that,
Speaker 1: saying that out loud, and for anyone who's listening, who
Speaker 1: is having those thoughts in their head to then put
Speaker 1: voice to them is scary because it's an admittance that
Speaker 1: I'm not okay. But by putting voice to it, it
Speaker 1: begins your recovery. And I really urge people to do
Speaker 1: that because you don't have to do it on your own,
Speaker 1: and it's so common you can't do it on your own, Well,
Speaker 1: you can't, but unfortunately so many people think they have to,
Speaker 1: and they wait too long. And then the longer you wait,
Speaker 1: the harder it is to get back to yourself again.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: And also you're trying to do something, You're trying to
Speaker 3: pull yourself out of a hole when you're at your weakest.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: Then you had period of what did your life look
Speaker 3: like after that?
Speaker 2: So you started treatment.
Speaker 1: You love my antidepression, still take my meds. I love them,
Speaker 1: So began antidepressants. I was lucky because the ones that
Speaker 1: were prescribed for me were the right ones.
Speaker 2: They were right.
Speaker 1: There's not always the case, not always the case. I
Speaker 1: had a wonderful psychiatrist. I would see her, not always
Speaker 1: the case exactly. So all these things worked well for me,
Speaker 1: and I know for a lot of people it's not
Speaker 1: as simple as that. Often the struggle is you ask
Speaker 1: for help and the right help isn't available. Yes, And
Speaker 1: and it began a.
Speaker 2: Sort of a what's the word, because journey is such
Speaker 2: a ridiculous word.
Speaker 1: But I've a rising rising, And also I learned more
Speaker 1: about myself and I'm learning I'm still not there yet,
Speaker 1: And I think having the postnatal depression, in a funny way,
Speaker 1: was one of the best things that could have happened
Speaker 1: to me, in the sense of it really taught me
Speaker 1: to be gentle on myself. It taught me I didn't
Speaker 1: have to be perfect. It taught me you could be
Speaker 1: a crap house I could be a crap housewife. I
Speaker 1: could be quirky and crazy and dye my hair different
Speaker 1: colors and do craft and do things that brought me
Speaker 1: joy and not have to be perfect. What was the
Speaker 1: when you really leaned into the crap housewife then, which
Speaker 1: was territory that sort of then became crowded. But when
Speaker 1: you started at nobody else was really doing that. What
Speaker 1: was the process where you gave yourself permission to do that?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: It was It was a process of I like to
Speaker 1: liken it to being a crap housewife was like the
Speaker 1: phoenix rising from the ashes of my postnatal depression. It
Speaker 1: was my reclaiming my imperfection and my vulnerability and being
Speaker 1: enough that I didn't have to be perfect, that I
Speaker 1: didn't have to know how to breastfeed, I didn't have
Speaker 1: to have perfect meals for my kids. They didn't have
Speaker 1: to have perfectly brushed hair, and we'd have meltdowns and
Speaker 1: that was okay. And I didn't have to have a
Speaker 1: tidy house and it was okay to fall apart.
Speaker 2: What did you have?
Speaker 3: So we know the things that you didn't have and
Speaker 3: that you didn't do, But what did you learn? Was
Speaker 3: your strength?
Speaker 2: My strength was that? Oh, that's a tricky question. What
Speaker 2: was my strength? But I, oh, that's a really hard
Speaker 2: it's hard.
Speaker 3: Well, I think I know what it is, but sometimes
Speaker 3: it's easy if you see it from outside.
Speaker 2: And I would say your strength was happiness.
Speaker 1: Well, joy, My strength is my capacity for joy, because
Speaker 1: I think happiness is this idea of oh, I have
Speaker 1: to always be happy, but joy is more deliberate and
Speaker 1: you have to be you have to kind of chase joy,
Speaker 1: and it's pockets of joy. So you can feel unhappy
Speaker 1: and you can be having a crappy day, but you
Speaker 1: can think, where's.
Speaker 2: My joy in today? So for me, my joy was
Speaker 2: seeing you today.
Speaker 1: But I've put on some sparkly stockings.
Speaker 2: Dress beautiful and pink lippy.
Speaker 1: So that's that's my strength that I chase joy and
Speaker 1: I want more of that in my life, and not
Speaker 1: only for me, I sort of I want other people
Speaker 1: to embrace that, because there's so much darkness and gloominess
Speaker 1: in the world and you can feel powerless in that.
Speaker 1: And what we can do, though, is go for those
Speaker 1: pockets of joy. And I want that to almost be
Speaker 1: my way of combating the nonsense, the noise, the hate,
Speaker 1: the sort of like, what, why go down that echo chamber. No,
Speaker 1: let's do the echo chamber of joy, or not even
Speaker 1: echo chamber. Let's reach for that. Why not spread that.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean I don't care about those things or
Speaker 1: I'm not mindful of those things, but I'm making a
Speaker 1: deliberate choice not to buy into that hate. I'm making
Speaker 1: a choice to look for that joy and to encourage
Speaker 1: other people to look for that, because it's too easy
Speaker 1: otherwise to be negative. Now, all right, that is so true.
Speaker 1: But what you are describing is.
Speaker 3: The Academy Award principle, which is a comedy never wins
Speaker 3: an Academy awards.
Speaker 2: Should, Yeah, but what wins Academy awards.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a thing with actors where you're always like,
Speaker 1: you know, make a nose out of putty, make people cry,
Speaker 1: You'll win an Academy Award.
Speaker 2: Comedy.
Speaker 3: A comedy has never won an Academy Award. The world
Speaker 3: responds to pain, cruelty, fear. Instilling fear in people, we
Speaker 3: learn during the pandemic can make people do anything. What
Speaker 3: the world doesn't value is people who come in open hearted,
Speaker 3: with a hearty laugh and a healthy snort. People somehow
Speaker 3: underestimate the value of that. To hear you say how
Speaker 3: important it is is.
Speaker 2: Beautiful.
Speaker 3: And I do think I feel that part of your
Speaker 3: redemption round was also doing Studio teen with that gentle
Speaker 3: morning audience who loved that wake up and to start
Speaker 3: the day with you where you were understood and loved
Speaker 3: by the people that you were doing the show with
Speaker 3: Sarah Harris, who have mentioned Ida buttros Jo.
Speaker 1: Beautiful nissistrised up on my firsties.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and people loved you and you did you learn
Speaker 3: to Were you like one of those Chinese sun bears,
Speaker 3: you know they opened the cage door, but they're too
Speaker 3: scared to walk outside because they've never stood on grass.
Speaker 2: Were you like that. At the start, No I was.
Speaker 2: I just came out.
Speaker 1: I came out because what I loved about Studio ten
Speaker 1: was that I could be myself and I was given
Speaker 1: permission to be myself. And in the interim before I
Speaker 1: did Studio ten, I did a whole lot of other
Speaker 1: really fun, crazy for one of a better word, things
Speaker 1: that allowed me to be me. So, you know, there
Speaker 1: was a time when the phone didn't ring and I thought,
Speaker 1: am I ever going.
Speaker 2: To get a job again? Will anyone ever employ me again?
Speaker 1: And then I realized I just had to sort of
Speaker 1: reinvent myself and do things for me and then let's
Speaker 1: see what happens.
Speaker 2: I did singing lessons. I was a terrible singer.
Speaker 1: I sort of had fantasies of being on the stage
Speaker 1: and doing musical theater and ended up narrating a musical
Speaker 1: in Geelong and other places. But I had so much
Speaker 1: fun because I met these creative, beautiful souls and one
Speaker 1: of my dearest friends now I met through that, and
Speaker 1: so I met people who encouraged me to do things
Speaker 1: for the sake of the joy it brings, as opposed
Speaker 1: to the goal at the end.
Speaker 3: But you know, you said you would like, is the
Speaker 3: phone going to ring again? In the meantime, Karl's career
Speaker 3: was going like that, how did you find the grace? Well, again,
Speaker 3: it's I don't want to waste energy on that because
Speaker 3: it's putting energy into what matters, yes, and people who matter.
Speaker 3: So that was a mental discipline that you would exist.
Speaker 1: But also there's far bigger, better things I had. By then, Giselle,
Speaker 1: I was doing Weekend Sunrise, which I love. That was
Speaker 1: so much fun with beautiful Sammy Samantha Armatage and I
Speaker 1: had a ball doing that show. And I was able
Speaker 1: to do that on the weekends and you know, be
Speaker 1: with my girls, and I was able through all of
Speaker 1: that time to sort of find myself again. I did
Speaker 1: Dancing with the Stars and that was great, and that
Speaker 1: was a good lesson for me because I had this
Speaker 1: idea in my head, this warped idea that I'm gonna
Speaker 1: win and then when I win, then I'll redeem myself
Speaker 1: and I'll get back on Telly. I can't dance, and
Speaker 1: like Katie's like, but that I discovered that was the
Speaker 1: first way of doing realizing the joy just in doing
Speaker 1: something and realizing it's what you do along the way
Speaker 1: and what you learn about yourself as opposed to an
Speaker 1: end game in this and so it helped me do
Speaker 1: zigging and zagging of things. I auditioned for play school,
Speaker 1: and I remember doing the audition and thinking, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I've lost my mind.
Speaker 2: What am I doing? But it was fun and I'm
Speaker 2: so glad I gave that a go.
Speaker 3: And even when you stepped aside from studio team, what
Speaker 3: was the thinking then?
Speaker 1: Well, I had done that for six years and I
Speaker 1: loved it. But like anything, there's a season for things
Speaker 1: in your life. My daughters were Allegra was just starting
Speaker 1: high school, Giselle was in primary school, and I knew
Speaker 1: my girls needed me more.
Speaker 2: And how could you tell?
Speaker 1: I just knew that it was more to how I
Speaker 1: was feeling each morning. It was harder. It was more work,
Speaker 1: and of course work is work, and there are some
Speaker 1: days where it's tougher than others. But there was less joy.
Speaker 1: It was more grind and more fraught with.
Speaker 2: Arrangements. Yeah, it was I was. I was more.
Speaker 1: I was just more worn down, and I didn't like
Speaker 1: the person I was becoming at home to the people
Speaker 1: I loved most. I didn't like that I was being
Speaker 1: snappier and more irritable and just tired, creeping through the week,
Speaker 1: and and I thought I got to a point where
Speaker 1: and I appreciate that it's not as straightforward for many women.
Speaker 1: I was lucky because with p D's work, I was
Speaker 1: in a position that I could I could take a
Speaker 1: step back.
Speaker 2: Yes, we weren't reliant on the two salaries.
Speaker 1: He was because when I first told him, he was like,
Speaker 1: because he's very sense, whereas I'm a bit more no,
Speaker 1: come on, let's do it. He's more measured. And we're
Speaker 1: on holidays. And I said to him, I'm going to
Speaker 1: leave Studio ten. And he said, pussy Cat, are you sure?
Speaker 1: Because you love that and I know you get so
Speaker 1: much out of it. Are you going to be bored
Speaker 1: if you leave? He said, why don't you give it
Speaker 1: a few more months? So I did, and I went
Speaker 1: it was sort of thinking about the March or the April,
Speaker 1: and I just thought, I have to listen to what
Speaker 1: my heart is telling me. And as women, we don't
Speaker 1: often do that enough, that we try and logic things away.
Speaker 1: But my heart was saying, you need to take a break,
Speaker 1: You need to step away from this. You are not
Speaker 1: happy and I had to really go you know what,
Speaker 1: You're right, I'm not happy.
Speaker 2: I'm going to live.
Speaker 1: And that was scary as well, because I thought, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I've worked so hard to get to this position,
Speaker 1: but also to do something that is me that I
Speaker 1: do love, and to walk away from a group of
Speaker 1: people that I love. And but but I don't regret it.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad I was brave. Sometimes we've got to
Speaker 1: be brave and make those calls. But you know why
Speaker 1: because I was present for my family and it may
Speaker 1: sound old fashioned, but it was the right thing for
Speaker 1: our family. I Alegra needed me, Giselle needed me, and
Speaker 1: and your husband needs Yes, he needs me less.
Speaker 2: That's what you think, true. I don't. Yeah, sometimes we
Speaker 2: take the ground.
Speaker 1: Oh, you're right, we do. We just think they'll just
Speaker 1: be there ticking over.
Speaker 3: Everyone likes attention. Don't you know you're the right card
Speaker 3: of the right card?
Speaker 1: Final question for you, Jess Row in your discovery of yourself.
Speaker 3: You'll continue discovery of yourself and your conversations with people
Speaker 3: on your podcast. Will Eddie Maguire be one of them?
Speaker 2: No? Okay, all right, he'll be very disappointed. Someone better
Speaker 2: call him and tell him he's been bowed.
Speaker 1: That.
Speaker 2: You know, I do not like that word.
Speaker 3: I wish you every continued happiness in your joy hunting.
Speaker 3: You're a beautiful woman, as Sarah Harris said to me,
Speaker 3: you are pure beauty, pure sunshine and pure beauty. And
Speaker 3: there's not enough of that.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, Kate. Well, but let's all lean into that.
Speaker 1: It's really my message for people that I believe we
Speaker 1: underestimate how much people want the hope and the joy
Speaker 1: and if that is, you know, if people do more.
Speaker 2: Of that, then that's how we rise and keep rising. Amen.
Speaker 3: Well, that, my friends, was Jessica Rowe. One of the
Speaker 3: things I kept thinking about during this conversation was how
Speaker 3: easy it would have been for her to let those
Speaker 3: difficult years define her, to become smaller, or quieter, or
Speaker 3: more cautious. Instead, she seems to have done the opposite.
Speaker 3: The woman who once was told her laugh was too
Speaker 3: much has reshaped her life around being unapologetically herself, and
Speaker 3: I think that's why so many people connect with her,
Speaker 3: not because she's perfect, but because she's willing to be
Speaker 3: seen exactly as she is. Thank you for listen to
Speaker 3: No Filter. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love you
Speaker 3: to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone
Speaker 3: who might enjoy it. Also, I'm Kate Lanebrook. I'll be
Speaker 3: back next Monday.