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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Maya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on out louders.

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Speaker 2: If you're missing your weekly out loud routine over the break,

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Speaker 2: and why wouldn't you be, we wanted to let you

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Speaker 2: know that we are still dropping episodes for Mama Mia

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Speaker 2: subscribers all summer long.

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Speaker 1: So as a.

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Speaker 2: Subscriber, you get full access to out Loud, including the

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Speaker 2: back catalog of over two hundred and fifty subscriber only episodes.

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Speaker 2: Listen to us until your ears bleed. Subscribe to MoMA

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Speaker 2: Maya via the link in the episode description.

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Speaker 1: Hello, out Louders, it's Holly Wayne right here. I hope

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Speaker 1: you're enjoying our hot pod summer. Look of course you are.

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Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you, As Mia would say, why wouldn't you?

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Speaker 1: I pop it into your ears today because I want

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Speaker 1: to share with you my other baby. One of my

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Speaker 1: very favorite interviews of the last year from mid which

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Speaker 1: is the other podcast that I host. It is conversations

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Speaker 1: for gen X women who are anathing button. If you

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Speaker 1: don't listen to it, why don't you? You're allowed to

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Speaker 1: listen to it? Even if you're not gen X, we

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Speaker 1: welcome all of you there. This conversation is one of

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Speaker 1: our most listened to, most commented on, and one of

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Speaker 1: my absolute favorites. It was with author and advocate Leslie Morgan,

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Speaker 1: and it is about sex. When I was writing the

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Speaker 1: intro for MID, because I always write a bespoke intro

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Speaker 1: for every episode, a bit of a manifesto, I asked

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Speaker 1: midwomen how they felt about sex and look, a lot

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Speaker 1: of them said that they were feeling overlooked, touched out

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Speaker 1: and too tired. But today's episode with Leslie is not

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Speaker 1: about that. Instead, it's a conversation with a woman who

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Speaker 1: was feeling like that and was also feeling pretty rejected

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Speaker 1: by her husband. But when her marriage broke down, she

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Speaker 1: decided that she was going to go on a sexual adventure.

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Speaker 1: And she thinks she knows what women really mean and

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Speaker 1: really want when they say they no longer care about sex.

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Speaker 1: And she also tells us how it feels to have

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Speaker 1: the absolute best sex of your life after fifty. Even

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Speaker 1: if you are not MID, you're going to love this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Listen to me and Leslie Morgan just not feeling it

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Speaker 1: at the moment, completely touched out, don't care if it

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Speaker 1: never happens again. Libido snatching hormones, there's no space left

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Speaker 1: for me to focus on pleasure. The literal acts seem ridiculous, comical,

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Speaker 1: silly somehow now we're all so different. There can be

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Speaker 1: a lot of sadness around sex when you ask midwomen

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Speaker 1: about it, really ask them about it, because sex can

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Speaker 1: be all caught up in who you are, who you were,

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Speaker 1: and how you feel about how desirable this new you is.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you used to love sex. Maybe you can remember

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Speaker 1: being that person. You can feel her, that charge rippling

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Speaker 1: across her skin, that tremble, that wave of intense need,

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Speaker 1: that flood of warm, syrupy relief, that smile that can't

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Speaker 1: be wiped, the memory of fingerprints on your skin you

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Speaker 1: carry through your day and never want to fade. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you've decided she was someone else, that person, because now

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Speaker 1: she seems to have dissolved away in a soup of hormones,

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Speaker 1: caring and exhaustion that's been on a low boil of

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Speaker 1: resentment in a faded relationship. Maybe you've never been more

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Speaker 1: aware of the gap between what your body looks like

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Speaker 1: and how the ones on the internet appear. Whatever sexy

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Speaker 1: is now you don't feel it. Add a dose of

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Speaker 1: having to do all the damn things, all the damn time,

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Speaker 1: and all of that might have settled into an ick

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Speaker 1: that you just can't shift. So you think I've fundamentally changed.

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Speaker 1: Sex is something I used to do, used to enjoy doing,

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Speaker 1: not now, And perhaps you're right, or maybe you're in

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Speaker 1: your prime, know more about your body, more about what

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Speaker 1: it wants, what it doesn't know, exactly where the spark

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Speaker 1: to that rippling charge lives and how to ignite it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you've worked out that feeling sexual sits right alongside

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Speaker 1: feeling wanted, appreciated, adored, desired. Maybe you're finally ready to

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Speaker 1: feel that way. Maybe you don't give a fuck about

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Speaker 1: your bumps and bulges and lines because you know that

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Speaker 1: actually sexy has never been smooth, bland clean. Maybe you're

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Speaker 1: rediscovering how it feels to be in lust as a

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Speaker 1: grown up when you truly know who you are. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you're feeling some days exactly like that young woman used

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Speaker 1: to be. Maybe you're learning a new language of sexting

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Speaker 1: and pornhub and ordering in from the apse. Maybe you've

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Speaker 1: finally thrown off the judgments from others, from yourself that

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Speaker 1: stopped you trying something that you had been whispering quietly

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Speaker 1: inside for years. Now you're ready, and it's building. This

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Speaker 1: confidence and this desire and this need building to something

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Speaker 1: you've heard women talking about and might just come pouring

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Speaker 1: out in a roar, the sex of your life. Yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'll have one.

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Speaker 3: Choose herving.

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Speaker 1: Is it behind you or is it ahead? Maybe the

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Speaker 1: answer to that question has not yet been written. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to MID Conversations for gen X women who

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Speaker 1: are anything but My name is Holly Wainwright, and I

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Speaker 1: am mid midlife, mid family, mid identity crisis, and welcome

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Speaker 1: back to our show, yours and mine. The whole point

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Speaker 1: of mid is to celebrate and commiserate and laugh and

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Speaker 1: take the piss out of this life stage that the

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Speaker 1: world tells us has made us small, irrelevant and invisible,

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Speaker 1: safe in the knowledge that actually we have never been wiser,

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Speaker 1: more powerful, more experienced, and more ambitious for our next acts.

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Speaker 1: Jen X is never played by the rules, so why

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Speaker 1: would we start Now? We're taking back that trite little word,

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Speaker 1: the one that's meant to convince us of our mediocrity

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Speaker 1: and we're going to shake that midshit up. In season one,

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Speaker 1: we had eight conversations that changed my mind and maybe

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Speaker 1: my life a little bit about mental health and alcohol

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Speaker 1: and bodies and grief and burnout and parenting kids who

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Speaker 1: aren't kids, and dating and everything really, and please feel

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Speaker 1: free to scroll back in your feed and listen to

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Speaker 1: any of those. They're not going anywhere, but today, in

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Speaker 1: the first episode of season two, we're going somewhere we

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Speaker 1: haven't been yet. We're going towards sex. I want you

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Speaker 1: to meet Leslie Morgan. She's an American author, columnist, and advocate.

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Speaker 1: She's been a successful corporate executive. She's a speaker on

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Speaker 1: women's rights, and she's a survivor of domestic violence. She's

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Speaker 1: got three grown up kids. She is also fifty nine

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Speaker 1: years old and very very keen on sex. Ten years ago,

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Speaker 1: Leslie's perfect on the outside, hollow on the inside. Marriage

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Speaker 1: fell apart. She hadn't had sex for literally years when

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Speaker 1: she decided that in her post divorce life, she was

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Speaker 1: going to find five boyfriends in twelve months. And she did,

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Speaker 1: and she wrote a book about it called The Naked Truth.

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Speaker 1: She met men, younger ones, mostly in all kinds of places,

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Speaker 1: and she built herself a suite of lovers, including strangers, acquaintances,

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Speaker 1: and an old high school crush. And she had a

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Speaker 1: lot of sex, most of it good, some of it great,

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Speaker 1: a sprinkling of it absolutely mind blowing. And Leslie changed.

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Speaker 1: She rediscovered her sexuality, she embraced it, and she realized

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Speaker 1: that what she needed in this second act of her

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Speaker 1: life was not to be a caretaker any longer, but

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Speaker 1: to be taken care of in all kinds of ways.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that

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Speaker 1: this conversation is not for children. That you might want

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Speaker 1: to put your earbuds in, and you might want to

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Speaker 1: do what I did before we recorded this interview and

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Speaker 1: put on a little extra blush so that no one

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Speaker 1: can see yours. Welcome to mid season two, Episode one,

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Speaker 1: Sex with our guest Leslie Morgan. Leslie, I want to

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Speaker 1: start with this passage from your book, but before I

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Speaker 1: tell you how I tracked down the twenty nine year

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Speaker 1: old explosives expert I met at the Philadelphia Airport and

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Speaker 1: how we blew up two decades of marriage and thirty

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Speaker 1: six months of celibacy. First, I have to go back

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Speaker 1: in time and tell you about getting rid of my husband, Marty.

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Speaker 1: Please don't think I'm being callous. Trust me, my husband

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Speaker 1: wanted to get rid of me too, Leslie. Tell me

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Speaker 1: everything about where you were in that moment.

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Speaker 3: So it is really true that my husband had wanted

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Speaker 3: to get rid of me for a long time. But he,

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Speaker 3: like so many men, he wanted the trappings of having

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Speaker 3: a wife. He liked the way that I organized his

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Speaker 3: life and took care of the house and the kids

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Speaker 3: and kind of made him look good and normal. And

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Speaker 3: also he very much saw our economic stability as something

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Speaker 3: that he controlled, and he did not want to give

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Speaker 3: me any money. So he had been, you know, making

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Speaker 3: his peace with an unhappy marriage for a long time.

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Speaker 3: And I think he would have lived with me without

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Speaker 3: having sex with me for the rest of his life,

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Speaker 3: and he would have just faked it and pretended. And

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Speaker 3: I think that you see a lot of men like this.

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Speaker 3: Women most often are the ones who initiate divorces, especially

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Speaker 3: divorces after forty and I just couldn't take it anymore.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't sleep in the bed next to him anymore.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't go on vacation with him. Many Moore, I

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Speaker 3: couldn't lie to my children, I couldn't lie to myself.

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Speaker 3: So I had finally broken the news to him that

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Speaker 3: our marriage was dead and that it wasn't his fault

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Speaker 3: and it wasn't my fault. Although, Holly, I'll tell you

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Speaker 3: the truth, I do think it was more his fault

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Speaker 3: than my fault because I had tried very hard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when you talk about the scene where you were

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Speaker 1: on holiday and you finally have this conversation and you

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Speaker 1: try and hug him, you try and put your arms

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Speaker 1: around him to comfort him, and he says, I don't

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Speaker 1: like the way you hug me. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I hear from a lot of women who've

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Speaker 1: been in either sort of low sex, no sex, or

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Speaker 1: just unhappy marriages is how that makes you feel to

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Speaker 1: know that everything you're doing is sort of almost repulsive

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Speaker 1: to them. It's not good for you, is it.

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Speaker 3: No? It was terrible. It was terrible to feel so

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Speaker 3: repulsive and so much that I couldn't please him. You know,

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Speaker 3: for years after every time we had been intimate, he

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Speaker 3: would kind of give me a grade and he would say, oh,

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Speaker 3: now not this time, You're just you're still not meeting

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Speaker 3: my needs and It got to the point that one

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Speaker 3: of the last times we attempted to have sex, I

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Speaker 3: burst into tears. I was sobbing hysterically and shaking because

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Speaker 3: I was so afraid of him destroying me again and

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Speaker 3: making me feel terrible again. It was really quite something.

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Speaker 3: And the thing that was even harder for me. Maybe

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Speaker 3: this would be easier for other women, but it was

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Speaker 3: really hard for me is that I loved sex, and

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Speaker 3: I had loved sex with him, really loved it. I

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Speaker 3: loved him physically. I don't know how graphic I'm allowed

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Speaker 3: to get, but he was big and really liked it,

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Speaker 3: and it was sort of like having my own human

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Speaker 3: dildo because he was so uninvolved in our sex life.

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Speaker 3: But I really I enjoyed it. I made the most

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Speaker 3: of it. I liked it.

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Speaker 1: I love that, But he was like a human dildo

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Speaker 1: by that point. Because the emotional connection is.

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Speaker 3: The emotional connection. Honestly, Holly had never really been there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we had been in trouble from the very

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Speaker 3: beginning of our marriage in terms of our sexual and

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Speaker 3: our emotional connection. So I really thought that I never

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Speaker 3: wanted to have sex again. He had made me feel

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Speaker 3: so terribly about myself and I thought that was the solution,

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Speaker 3: to never have sex again, to divorce him, and to

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Speaker 3: just be kind of blissfully alone for the rest of

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Speaker 3: my life. And I told all of my friends that

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Speaker 3: when we split up, I kind of shouted it from

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Speaker 3: the rooftops that I was done with men and I

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Speaker 3: was done with sex. And I was forty nine years old.

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Speaker 3: You know, I felt old, but I actually you were.

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Speaker 3: Now I realized I was actually quite young.

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Speaker 1: So you had kind of convinced yourself at that time

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Speaker 1: that your sexual self, and you said you'd always really

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Speaker 1: loved sex, was kind of done. And that's what I

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Speaker 1: think lots of mid women tell themselves, right, is they're like,

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Speaker 1: I used to be a sexual person and now I'm

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Speaker 1: not a sexual person anymore. And maybe that's just life,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's just age, maybe that's just whatever. And often

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Speaker 1: it's the relationship therein that may have pushed there. So

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Speaker 1: you had had thirty six months of celibacy, the marriage

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Speaker 1: had been sexless for a while for the reasons you've expressed. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you're like, I'm never having sex again, and then we

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Speaker 1: get to a place where you plan to have a

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Speaker 1: year with five lovers. Tell me how that came about.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So I was exactly as you described. I thought

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Speaker 3: that my sex life was over because I didn't like

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Speaker 3: sex anymore. And what I really was coming to grips

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Speaker 3: with was that it wasn't that I didn't like sex anymore.

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Speaker 3: It was that I didn't want to have sex with

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Speaker 3: my ex husband ever again. And he had made me

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Speaker 3: feel so terrible, and he had invested so little in

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Speaker 3: our relationship that I didn't feel valued or treasured as

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Speaker 3: a woman, as a sexual woman at all. And then

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Speaker 3: I very serendipitously met maybe the most handsome man that

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Speaker 3: i'd ever met, you know, side of movie stars, in

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Speaker 3: an airport. I was forty nine and he was twenty nine,

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Speaker 3: and I knocked over his coffee.

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Speaker 1: Did you knock over his coffee on accidental purpose, Leslie?

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Speaker 3: No, I didn't even see him. I knocked over his coffee,

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Speaker 3: and then I looked at him and I could barely

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Speaker 3: breathe because he was so handsome, And we started a flirtation,

247
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Speaker 3: and we ended up rendezvousing in a hotel a month later,

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Speaker 3: quite intentionally to break my celibacy streak. And it was

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Speaker 3: the one of the most daring, audacious things that I've

250
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Speaker 3: ever done.

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Speaker 1: Where did you get the nerve to do that? Right?

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Speaker 1: Because so this is the explosives expert that we began

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Speaker 1: talking about at the beginning. Yes, I want to know,

254
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Speaker 1: and we're going to go all kinds of places in

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Speaker 1: this conversation, but one of the places we're going to

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Speaker 1: get to towards the end, I hope, is your advice

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Speaker 1: for how women can build their confidence to find themselves

258
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Speaker 1: in situations like you did with explosives ex But how

259
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Speaker 1: did you get the nerve to go from this person

260
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Speaker 1: who'd almost had their sexuality decimated to be I think

261
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Speaker 1: that's the guy I'm going to break my celibacy streak with.

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Speaker 3: I really honestly don't know. I think I was so

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Speaker 3: happy to not be married. At that point, I had

264
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Speaker 3: been unmarried for a year. I was coming back into

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Speaker 3: my own I was rediscovering myself. I was feeling great

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Speaker 3: about myself because I just recovered from that terrible marriage,

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Speaker 3: and I was feeling very gutsy. And that man was

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Speaker 3: so handsome. He looked like Brad Pitt. He was so gorgeous,

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Speaker 3: and I just thought, you know, I'm going to go

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Speaker 3: back to who I was as a teenager. I'm going

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Speaker 3: to become gutsy again, and I'm going to go after

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Speaker 3: what I want. And I had been a very good

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Speaker 3: girl as a married woman. As a wife, I had

274
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Speaker 3: never strayed. I had never really even flirted with anybody.

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Speaker 3: And here I am plotting to meet a man in

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Speaker 3: a hotel for the sole purpose of having sex with him.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it was so thrilling, and it was terrifying.

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Speaker 3: And I told no one. You know, I had one

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Speaker 3: best friend who I confided that I thought I was

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Speaker 3: going to do this, but I was kind of afraid

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Speaker 3: to tell my other friends because I thought they might

282
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Speaker 3: judge me. They might think that I was like some

283
00:16:22,167 --> 00:16:25,007
Speaker 3: kind of crazy slut or something. But I did it,

284
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Speaker 3: and as I write about in The Naked Truth, I

285
00:16:28,487 --> 00:16:32,287
Speaker 3: was very nervous. It was terrifying to be naked in

286
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Speaker 3: front of anybody, but especially a twenty nine year old

287
00:16:36,167 --> 00:16:39,367
Speaker 3: with a perfect body. And here's my body. You know,

288
00:16:40,007 --> 00:16:42,607
Speaker 3: I had breastfed my children. You know, I had this

289
00:16:42,807 --> 00:16:45,647
Speaker 3: flab on my stomach and I had cellulite everywhere. And

290
00:16:45,767 --> 00:16:48,127
Speaker 3: I thought he was going to be disgusted and horrified,

291
00:16:48,647 --> 00:16:51,407
Speaker 3: and instead he wasn't. He loved it. He loved the

292
00:16:51,487 --> 00:16:55,127
Speaker 3: experience of being with an older woman. He was very appreciative.

293
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Speaker 3: He made me feel great. The sex was not very good.

294
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Speaker 3: I didn't care because it was just so delectable to

295
00:17:02,847 --> 00:17:05,727
Speaker 3: be held again, and to touch a man again, and

296
00:17:05,767 --> 00:17:09,847
Speaker 3: to have a man inside me, and to just feel

297
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Speaker 3: like a woman again. I felt like a sexual goddess.

298
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Speaker 3: Oh God, it was so intoxicating, and so what I

299
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Speaker 3: did after that night. For various reasons, I couldn't continue

300
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Speaker 3: with him, But I thought, you know what, I need

301
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Speaker 3: more of this, and I need a lot more, and

302
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Speaker 3: I need to make sure I don't get too attached

303
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Speaker 3: to any one of them. So I'm going to have five.

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Speaker 1: How did you settle on five, Leslie? Is it you

305
00:17:29,447 --> 00:17:30,487
Speaker 1: a lucky number or something?

306
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Speaker 3: It just seemed like a good number. I actually I

307
00:17:32,927 --> 00:17:36,367
Speaker 3: wanted two where I lived, and then three on the

308
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Speaker 3: road where I traveled, and it just sounded five sounded

309
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Speaker 3: like a good number. And you know what, Holly, it

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Speaker 3: was very rarely five. There were times where it was zero.

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Speaker 3: There were times where I had like ten people that

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Speaker 3: I was working on.

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Speaker 1: It was working on. I like it.

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Speaker 3: You don't just wake up one day at any age

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Speaker 3: and say I'm going to have five boyfriends tomorrow. You

316
00:17:54,007 --> 00:17:57,127
Speaker 3: have to reach out and cultivate them and meet them

317
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Speaker 3: and convince them. And it was a lot of work, actually,

318
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Speaker 3: but it was really really fun.

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Speaker 1: Fun work. After you know, everything you've been doing for

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Speaker 1: a lot of you and not being about you, but

321
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Speaker 1: being about other people. Can I just ask you push

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Speaker 1: on that younger man thing a little bit, right, because

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Speaker 1: this is something I hear a lot from the mid

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Speaker 1: community and my mid friends. You know, you might be

325
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Speaker 1: coming out of this long term relationship. Only one person

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Speaker 1: has seen you naked for all this time, and as

327
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Speaker 1: you just expressed, there's a lot of fear there. Your body,

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Speaker 1: in your mind looks very different to the last time

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Speaker 1: you showed it to a stranger, right. And a lot

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Speaker 1: of my friends of our age say that younger men,

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Speaker 1: it's very common for them to have their first post

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Speaker 1: marriage sexual experiences or several with younger guys, and that

333
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Speaker 1: younger guys, as you just expressed, don't give us stuff

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Speaker 1: about the cellulate, you know, the boobs being a little

335
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Speaker 1: lower and they were. Why do you think that is?

336
00:18:51,007 --> 00:18:54,967
Speaker 1: What's your sort of theory on why younger guys love

337
00:18:55,007 --> 00:18:58,207
Speaker 1: older women and why older women need to shrug off

338
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Speaker 1: some of the fear of like I couldn't show this

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Speaker 1: to them.

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Speaker 3: So I think that younger men who are sexually attracted

341
00:19:06,327 --> 00:19:11,327
Speaker 3: to older women, they don't expect per affection. They absolutely

342
00:19:11,407 --> 00:19:13,927
Speaker 3: know that your body's not going to be perfect. They're

343
00:19:14,047 --> 00:19:19,207
Speaker 3: after the entire experience, not just the physicality of it.

344
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Speaker 3: And they are fully aware that older women are much

345
00:19:22,567 --> 00:19:25,207
Speaker 3: more experienced sexually than they are, and they like that.

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Speaker 3: And also I was, by comparison to these men, I

347
00:19:29,767 --> 00:19:33,207
Speaker 3: was so wise. I knew how to put them at ease.

348
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Speaker 3: I was very comfortable talking to them about sex because

349
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Speaker 3: I'd had a lot of sex and because I liked sex.

350
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Speaker 3: And also I could solve their problems. I mean, there

351
00:19:42,167 --> 00:19:44,247
Speaker 3: is not a twenty nine year old on earth who

352
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Speaker 3: can come up with a problem that I can't solve

353
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Speaker 3: in five minutes, because they don't have real problems, you know,

354
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Speaker 3: from my perspective, right, Yes, And they appreciated the whole package.

355
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Speaker 3: They also appreciated being taken care of. They appreciated that

356
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Speaker 3: I lived in a nice house, you know, much nicer

357
00:20:00,527 --> 00:20:03,767
Speaker 3: than what they you know, they just the whole package, Holly,

358
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Speaker 3: and I was shocked by it when I had first

359
00:20:06,327 --> 00:20:08,367
Speaker 3: gotten together with Dylan, I didn't He had to explain

360
00:20:08,407 --> 00:20:11,207
Speaker 3: to me what a milf was. I did not know

361
00:20:11,887 --> 00:20:14,367
Speaker 3: that there was such a term. I didn't know that

362
00:20:14,807 --> 00:20:17,167
Speaker 3: younger men liked older women. I had been living with

363
00:20:17,207 --> 00:20:21,127
Speaker 3: my married mother, blinders on, and so it was all

364
00:20:21,207 --> 00:20:22,367
Speaker 3: quite an awakening for me.

365
00:20:23,887 --> 00:20:27,007
Speaker 1: So, look, you decide you want a lover or five lovers,

366
00:20:27,487 --> 00:20:30,207
Speaker 1: but how do you even start to make that a reality.

367
00:20:30,487 --> 00:20:38,047
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more after this break. So the

368
00:20:38,247 --> 00:20:41,687
Speaker 1: strategy is set. We're going to find five boyfriends in

369
00:20:41,727 --> 00:20:45,407
Speaker 1: the year to break the drought and to plunge back

370
00:20:45,407 --> 00:20:48,887
Speaker 1: into the boyfriend pool. I know that you didn't use

371
00:20:49,047 --> 00:20:51,967
Speaker 1: dating apps. How did you find your boyfriends? You were

372
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Speaker 1: just saying it was a bit of work. Obviously, you've

373
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Speaker 1: got kids at this point, I think your kids teenagers.

374
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Speaker 3: Yes, two of my kids were living away from home.

375
00:21:00,247 --> 00:21:02,807
Speaker 3: One was in college, one was in boarding school, and

376
00:21:02,847 --> 00:21:05,807
Speaker 3: the other was only with me a week at a

377
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Speaker 3: time because then she would go to her dad's house.

378
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Speaker 1: So you've got windows of opportunity. You travel for work,

379
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Speaker 1: so there's airports, there's hotels, there's all those things sort

380
00:21:14,207 --> 00:21:17,927
Speaker 1: of sprinkled through that. So how did you find your

381
00:21:17,967 --> 00:21:18,967
Speaker 1: five boyfriends.

382
00:21:19,047 --> 00:21:21,127
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing is I did is I started

383
00:21:21,327 --> 00:21:24,807
Speaker 3: just looking at the world completely differently, because you don't

384
00:21:24,847 --> 00:21:28,087
Speaker 3: need dating apps, because there are actually so many men everywhere.

385
00:21:28,767 --> 00:21:31,207
Speaker 3: And I started seeing that there were men on the street,

386
00:21:31,287 --> 00:21:33,167
Speaker 3: there were men at the supermarket, there were men at

387
00:21:33,247 --> 00:21:36,047
Speaker 3: yoga class, there were men at airports, there were men

388
00:21:36,087 --> 00:21:39,007
Speaker 3: at the car wash. You know, I just I started

389
00:21:39,087 --> 00:21:43,607
Speaker 3: seeing men, and I started really pushing myself. When I

390
00:21:43,647 --> 00:21:45,447
Speaker 3: saw a man who I thought I was attracted to,

391
00:21:46,207 --> 00:21:48,527
Speaker 3: I forced myself to talk to him. And it was

392
00:21:48,647 --> 00:21:50,807
Speaker 3: really hard. I was not raised to be this way.

393
00:21:50,887 --> 00:21:52,727
Speaker 3: I was raised to wait for men to come to me.

394
00:21:53,367 --> 00:21:55,447
Speaker 3: But I forced myself, and I missed out on some

395
00:21:55,527 --> 00:21:57,527
Speaker 3: really good men because I wasn't gutsy enough. And I

396
00:21:57,567 --> 00:22:00,407
Speaker 3: also made a fool out of myself with some men

397
00:22:00,407 --> 00:22:04,327
Speaker 3: who really were not interested. But in general, I had

398
00:22:04,327 --> 00:22:07,447
Speaker 3: a pretty good hit rate. And I met one man

399
00:22:07,487 --> 00:22:10,567
Speaker 3: in yoga. Oh he was so cute. God, I loved him,

400
00:22:10,807 --> 00:22:13,607
Speaker 3: gorgeous yoga man. I met a lot of men in

401
00:22:13,687 --> 00:22:16,567
Speaker 3: airports because airports were the best place. It was like

402
00:22:16,767 --> 00:22:18,967
Speaker 3: shooting fish in a barrel. It was like going to

403
00:22:19,007 --> 00:22:22,327
Speaker 3: a bar because there's so many men in airports, and

404
00:22:22,607 --> 00:22:25,807
Speaker 3: they're so easy to meet. You know, a lot of

405
00:22:25,847 --> 00:22:28,847
Speaker 3: men travel for business and you can just meet them

406
00:22:28,847 --> 00:22:31,207
Speaker 3: by saying, well, where are you going? Where do you live? Oh?

407
00:22:31,287 --> 00:22:33,127
Speaker 3: The flight's delayed again? You know. I found it to

408
00:22:33,127 --> 00:22:34,127
Speaker 3: be extremely easy.

409
00:22:34,647 --> 00:22:36,447
Speaker 1: So what you're telling us is, don't go to the

410
00:22:36,487 --> 00:22:37,807
Speaker 1: airport in your sweatpants.

411
00:22:37,927 --> 00:22:41,527
Speaker 3: Oh no, I started blessing up so much for the airport.

412
00:22:42,087 --> 00:22:44,047
Speaker 3: You have to dress nicely. I mean, I didn't want

413
00:22:44,047 --> 00:22:45,687
Speaker 3: to be too fancy, but I tried to look hart

414
00:22:46,047 --> 00:22:46,567
Speaker 3: of course.

415
00:22:47,047 --> 00:22:51,047
Speaker 1: And then you're literally starting conversations with men one of

416
00:22:51,087 --> 00:22:54,247
Speaker 1: the things that I wanted to ask you about so things,

417
00:22:54,287 --> 00:22:57,847
Speaker 1: and with Dylan for various reasons. Then the other relationships

418
00:22:57,847 --> 00:22:59,367
Speaker 1: as we go through the book, and we'll get to

419
00:22:59,447 --> 00:23:02,927
Speaker 1: Jake towards the end, which is really interesting story. It

420
00:23:03,047 --> 00:23:04,767
Speaker 1: is a lot of work. It's a lot of emotional

421
00:23:04,807 --> 00:23:07,167
Speaker 1: work as well as other kinds of work in terms

422
00:23:07,247 --> 00:23:09,567
Speaker 1: of you're getting amazing sex. But these are also the

423
00:23:09,647 --> 00:23:12,287
Speaker 1: sort of relationships that need nurturing, aren't they was that

424
00:23:12,367 --> 00:23:13,207
Speaker 1: part of it.

425
00:23:13,607 --> 00:23:16,767
Speaker 3: In some ways. The work really was on myself to

426
00:23:16,887 --> 00:23:20,247
Speaker 3: force myself to be more aggressive, to be more proactive,

427
00:23:20,367 --> 00:23:22,127
Speaker 3: and to make sure that I didn't get too attached

428
00:23:22,167 --> 00:23:24,127
Speaker 3: to any of them, because I think I could have

429
00:23:24,207 --> 00:23:26,687
Speaker 3: quite easily gotten attached to them, and that would have

430
00:23:26,687 --> 00:23:29,807
Speaker 3: been a disaster. It's much easier emotionally if you're not

431
00:23:29,847 --> 00:23:32,167
Speaker 3: that attached. And I have to tell you, I'm so

432
00:23:32,607 --> 00:23:35,887
Speaker 3: humiliated to admit this, but this is something that middle

433
00:23:35,967 --> 00:23:38,887
Speaker 3: aged men have understood for a very long time, that

434
00:23:39,207 --> 00:23:41,167
Speaker 3: after you get divorced, you date a lot of people.

435
00:23:41,287 --> 00:23:43,447
Speaker 3: You don't get attached to any of them. You just

436
00:23:43,487 --> 00:23:45,967
Speaker 3: try them all out, and then if you feel like it,

437
00:23:46,007 --> 00:23:48,247
Speaker 3: you settle down with one. I was doing the exact

438
00:23:48,247 --> 00:23:50,407
Speaker 3: same thing, but I had never been raised to do that.

439
00:23:50,487 --> 00:23:52,927
Speaker 3: I didn't know women could do that, and so the

440
00:23:53,087 --> 00:23:56,567
Speaker 3: trick was to find the men, to approach the men,

441
00:23:56,647 --> 00:23:58,407
Speaker 3: and to convince the men. And the men took a

442
00:23:58,447 --> 00:24:00,487
Speaker 3: lot of convincing, believe it or not, and I don't

443
00:24:00,527 --> 00:24:03,727
Speaker 3: really understand why. I think they couldn't believe it that

444
00:24:03,967 --> 00:24:08,407
Speaker 3: this woman was being so forward. And I made it

445
00:24:08,487 --> 00:24:11,407
Speaker 3: quite clear to them pretty early on that I was

446
00:24:11,687 --> 00:24:14,727
Speaker 3: not interested in a committed relationship. I didn't want them

447
00:24:14,767 --> 00:24:16,807
Speaker 3: to take me out to dinner, and I wanted them

448
00:24:16,847 --> 00:24:18,927
Speaker 3: to come to my house and have sex. That's what

449
00:24:18,967 --> 00:24:22,607
Speaker 3: I wanted. And once they got that, most of them

450
00:24:22,647 --> 00:24:24,407
Speaker 3: were fine with it. They're still, to my surprise, there's

451
00:24:24,447 --> 00:24:26,767
Speaker 3: still a few who said, no, that's not what they wanted.

452
00:24:26,887 --> 00:24:29,287
Speaker 3: They wanted a relationship. But the next one after Dylan,

453
00:24:29,527 --> 00:24:32,127
Speaker 3: was a man I met work. He was in his twenties,

454
00:24:32,727 --> 00:24:36,407
Speaker 3: really hot again and very adventurous sexually, and he had

455
00:24:36,447 --> 00:24:40,727
Speaker 3: always liked older women, so that happened very quickly and easily.

456
00:24:41,007 --> 00:24:43,287
Speaker 3: And then, as I write in the book, after we

457
00:24:43,327 --> 00:24:48,047
Speaker 3: had had this afternoon of glorious, adventurous sex of all kinds,

458
00:24:50,527 --> 00:24:52,567
Speaker 3: I had to take my daughter to a sporting event,

459
00:24:52,607 --> 00:24:54,967
Speaker 3: and while I was watching her play sports, he texted

460
00:24:55,007 --> 00:24:57,487
Speaker 3: me that said, that was great, but it has to

461
00:24:57,527 --> 00:24:59,567
Speaker 3: be a one time thing because I have a girlfriend.

462
00:25:00,007 --> 00:25:02,367
Speaker 3: And you know, if I had been dating him, if

463
00:25:02,407 --> 00:25:04,247
Speaker 3: I had gone on a dating app and had made

464
00:25:04,287 --> 00:25:06,727
Speaker 3: myself vulnerable and all of that, I would have been

465
00:25:07,247 --> 00:25:11,927
Speaker 3: furious and really hurt. But because this was just casual,

466
00:25:12,527 --> 00:25:14,527
Speaker 3: I just laughed. I couldn't have cared less. And also

467
00:25:14,567 --> 00:25:16,927
Speaker 3: I knew he'd be back, and he was back. It

468
00:25:16,967 --> 00:25:19,447
Speaker 3: was sort of light and breezy, and I'd never approached

469
00:25:19,527 --> 00:25:21,927
Speaker 3: dating that way I'd never approached dating as a buffet

470
00:25:22,407 --> 00:25:25,247
Speaker 3: right that I want, that I want, that I want that.

471
00:25:25,327 --> 00:25:29,487
Speaker 3: I'd always I bought this kind of societal bs that

472
00:25:30,087 --> 00:25:33,367
Speaker 3: as a woman you need to find one man, as

473
00:25:33,407 --> 00:25:36,447
Speaker 3: if you find one food that you want to eat

474
00:25:36,487 --> 00:25:38,087
Speaker 3: for the rest of your life, and that's the only

475
00:25:38,127 --> 00:25:40,647
Speaker 3: food you can ever have. That's what I thought, Like,

476
00:25:40,727 --> 00:25:42,847
Speaker 3: No wonder it hadn't worked, No wonder I'd had two

477
00:25:42,887 --> 00:25:46,287
Speaker 3: failed marriages. My approach was just completely wrong, And it

478
00:25:46,327 --> 00:25:48,927
Speaker 3: was much easier when I took it all a little

479
00:25:49,127 --> 00:25:51,527
Speaker 3: more lightheartedly and not seriously.

480
00:25:52,167 --> 00:25:54,167
Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you say that some of the

481
00:25:54,247 --> 00:25:57,367
Speaker 1: men needed convincing, because I guess in the cultural norms

482
00:25:57,367 --> 00:26:00,327
Speaker 1: we've all agreed upon, they don't believe you when you're

483
00:26:00,407 --> 00:26:03,287
Speaker 1: saying I don't want a relationship. They're like, but women

484
00:26:03,367 --> 00:26:06,927
Speaker 1: always want relationships, don't they. And one of the wonderful

485
00:26:06,967 --> 00:26:10,607
Speaker 1: things about midlife is that I see younger women who

486
00:26:10,607 --> 00:26:14,767
Speaker 1: are rushing to choose a life partner. And that's a

487
00:26:14,967 --> 00:26:18,887
Speaker 1: very different game than, as you say, choosing from the

488
00:26:18,927 --> 00:26:22,527
Speaker 1: buffet of experiences I want to have. So were you

489
00:26:22,607 --> 00:26:25,207
Speaker 1: thinking when you were choosing your boyfriend's or gone through

490
00:26:25,247 --> 00:26:28,807
Speaker 1: this I've never done x y z in bed or

491
00:26:28,847 --> 00:26:32,007
Speaker 1: I've never slept with a guy who x yzed? Was

492
00:26:32,007 --> 00:26:34,247
Speaker 1: that part of it, like going back to what do

493
00:26:34,327 --> 00:26:36,727
Speaker 1: I really want and what do I want to try?

494
00:26:36,767 --> 00:26:38,927
Speaker 1: And what have I never done? Was that part of

495
00:26:38,967 --> 00:26:40,647
Speaker 1: the excitement of it.

496
00:26:40,647 --> 00:26:43,167
Speaker 3: It was lake getting out of jail in a way,

497
00:26:43,727 --> 00:26:46,927
Speaker 3: because the jail that I had been in that a

498
00:26:47,007 --> 00:26:48,927
Speaker 3: lot of women are in, is that I thought, I

499
00:26:48,967 --> 00:26:51,527
Speaker 3: need to pick a partner. He needs to be a

500
00:26:51,567 --> 00:26:54,367
Speaker 3: stable person, he needs to be a good provider, he

501
00:26:54,407 --> 00:26:56,287
Speaker 3: needs to be a good dad. I've been very focused

502
00:26:56,287 --> 00:27:00,607
Speaker 3: on that since my late teenage years. And what I

503
00:27:00,847 --> 00:27:04,247
Speaker 3: discovered at age forty nine, already having had my kids,

504
00:27:04,287 --> 00:27:07,247
Speaker 3: having very little desire to get married again, was that

505
00:27:07,367 --> 00:27:10,167
Speaker 3: the world opened up to me. I could date men

506
00:27:10,207 --> 00:27:13,087
Speaker 3: who were ten years older, twenty years younger. I could

507
00:27:13,127 --> 00:27:15,807
Speaker 3: date men of different ethnicities, I could date men of

508
00:27:15,847 --> 00:27:18,767
Speaker 3: different religions. I could date men who I had very

509
00:27:18,807 --> 00:27:21,007
Speaker 3: little in common with because they weren't going to be

510
00:27:21,087 --> 00:27:24,087
Speaker 3: my partners. So all of a sudden, every man on

511
00:27:24,127 --> 00:27:26,287
Speaker 3: the street was fair game as long as I liked him.

512
00:27:26,567 --> 00:27:29,847
Speaker 3: And I think another reason that the men took some

513
00:27:29,927 --> 00:27:33,767
Speaker 3: convincing is that I don't like slimy men. I don't

514
00:27:33,807 --> 00:27:36,327
Speaker 3: like men who just want to have sex. I wanted

515
00:27:36,407 --> 00:27:39,527
Speaker 3: men who had more substance to them and who I

516
00:27:39,527 --> 00:27:42,567
Speaker 3: actually liked. I've never had a true one night stand

517
00:27:42,567 --> 00:27:45,647
Speaker 3: in my life. I needed there to be something more there,

518
00:27:46,087 --> 00:27:48,327
Speaker 3: and the men I picked knew that too, So it

519
00:27:48,367 --> 00:27:50,087
Speaker 3: just took them a while to figure out, like, well,

520
00:27:50,087 --> 00:27:52,567
Speaker 3: this woman is interested in me, but she really truly

521
00:27:52,607 --> 00:27:55,487
Speaker 3: only wants a casual relationship. And also I think that

522
00:27:55,567 --> 00:27:57,847
Speaker 3: some of them at the beginning thought I was crazy.

523
00:27:57,927 --> 00:27:59,927
Speaker 3: They're like, there's no way this can be true, and

524
00:28:00,007 --> 00:28:02,727
Speaker 3: so I would have to really convince them, No, we're

525
00:28:02,767 --> 00:28:05,367
Speaker 3: not going to talk about who else you're seeing. We're

526
00:28:05,407 --> 00:28:07,167
Speaker 3: not going to talk about your girlfriend. We're not going

527
00:28:07,207 --> 00:28:09,647
Speaker 3: to talk about what you've got going on to talk

528
00:28:09,687 --> 00:28:11,487
Speaker 3: about that either. We're going to see each other when

529
00:28:11,527 --> 00:28:13,727
Speaker 3: we feel like it, and we're gonna have a great time,

530
00:28:13,847 --> 00:28:16,087
Speaker 3: and there are no strings attached for me or you.

531
00:28:16,487 --> 00:28:18,247
Speaker 3: It was just a very different paradigm.

532
00:28:18,487 --> 00:28:20,527
Speaker 1: And you've just talked about some of the boundaries. We're

533
00:28:20,567 --> 00:28:23,447
Speaker 1: not talking about other people. What other boundaries did you

534
00:28:23,487 --> 00:28:25,727
Speaker 1: have in place to make sure that these relationships didn't

535
00:28:25,767 --> 00:28:28,047
Speaker 1: get too messy. I also just wanted to ask if

536
00:28:28,047 --> 00:28:31,007
Speaker 1: you'd ever worried about your safety. It sounds like you

537
00:28:31,087 --> 00:28:33,847
Speaker 1: vetted them pretty well in a way, like in terms

538
00:28:33,887 --> 00:28:35,687
Speaker 1: of you've got to know them a little bit, and

539
00:28:35,807 --> 00:28:38,047
Speaker 1: you've got a good radar for this, having had an

540
00:28:38,087 --> 00:28:39,287
Speaker 1: abusive marriage yourself.

541
00:28:39,767 --> 00:28:42,567
Speaker 3: It's true. I was never I never felt unsafe. I

542
00:28:42,607 --> 00:28:45,007
Speaker 3: had a list of things that I needed in these guys.

543
00:28:45,127 --> 00:28:47,647
Speaker 3: They had to think I was really hot. I had

544
00:28:47,687 --> 00:28:49,727
Speaker 3: to think they were hot. They had to be fun,

545
00:28:49,967 --> 00:28:52,607
Speaker 3: and they had to be nice. So you know, it's

546
00:28:52,647 --> 00:28:54,767
Speaker 3: a relatively short list, but it got me through so

547
00:28:54,847 --> 00:28:57,527
Speaker 3: that these were people who I felt safe with. I also,

548
00:28:57,767 --> 00:29:00,887
Speaker 3: I really liked dating younger men because they didn't want

549
00:29:00,887 --> 00:29:03,487
Speaker 3: a relationship with an older woman. They wanted an experiment

550
00:29:03,647 --> 00:29:06,487
Speaker 3: and to have some fun. But there weren't any twenty

551
00:29:06,567 --> 00:29:08,887
Speaker 3: nine year olds who really wanted to settle down with

552
00:29:08,927 --> 00:29:11,967
Speaker 3: a one who was past her child bearing years. So

553
00:29:12,487 --> 00:29:15,087
Speaker 3: that worked for me fine. The boundaries, I think were

554
00:29:15,207 --> 00:29:18,687
Speaker 3: very easy to negotiate because I think men are actually

555
00:29:18,927 --> 00:29:22,247
Speaker 3: much much better with boundaries than women are, and so

556
00:29:22,567 --> 00:29:25,087
Speaker 3: once I was able to convince them that I wasn't

557
00:29:25,127 --> 00:29:27,367
Speaker 3: crazy and that this was all I wanted, is, you know,

558
00:29:27,407 --> 00:29:30,527
Speaker 3: to see them occasionally and have a wonderful time in bed.

559
00:29:31,087 --> 00:29:32,647
Speaker 3: They got with the programm really fast.

560
00:29:33,007 --> 00:29:35,887
Speaker 1: What about sexual boundaries. You've said you wanted to try

561
00:29:35,967 --> 00:29:38,847
Speaker 1: all kinds of things that you hadn't tried, not necessarily

562
00:29:38,887 --> 00:29:41,247
Speaker 1: that you hadn't tried, but that you certainly weren't getting

563
00:29:41,287 --> 00:29:45,927
Speaker 1: in your marriage necessarily. Was it a wonderful experience to

564
00:29:46,727 --> 00:29:48,847
Speaker 1: try all these things and then pick I love that,

565
00:29:48,927 --> 00:29:51,007
Speaker 1: I don't love that, this is what I want to do?

566
00:29:51,127 --> 00:29:51,567
Speaker 1: What was that?

567
00:29:51,767 --> 00:29:55,287
Speaker 3: Like? Yes, it was magnificent. It was mostly magnificent, not

568
00:29:55,407 --> 00:29:58,807
Speaker 3: because of the experimenting, not because of the new positions

569
00:29:58,887 --> 00:30:02,287
Speaker 3: or the new things we did, but just because I

570
00:30:02,447 --> 00:30:07,127
Speaker 3: was seeking adoration from so many men at once. So

571
00:30:07,287 --> 00:30:09,567
Speaker 3: for once in my life, I felt like I was

572
00:30:09,767 --> 00:30:14,407
Speaker 3: getting inundated with men who thought I was fantastic, not

573
00:30:14,567 --> 00:30:16,127
Speaker 3: just sexually but in every way, Like I was like

574
00:30:16,167 --> 00:30:19,887
Speaker 3: a goddess to them, and that was exactly what I needed.

575
00:30:19,967 --> 00:30:22,847
Speaker 3: I think it's what every woman needs a lot of.

576
00:30:23,487 --> 00:30:26,087
Speaker 3: And I just felt exhilarated that I was getting it.

577
00:30:26,127 --> 00:30:29,087
Speaker 3: And there were a few, you know, failures, men that

578
00:30:29,127 --> 00:30:32,607
Speaker 3: who I didn't really click with sexually, but that was,

579
00:30:33,087 --> 00:30:35,927
Speaker 3: you know, easy to not repeat. And the men who

580
00:30:36,007 --> 00:30:39,647
Speaker 3: I had long term, you know, more than a few

581
00:30:39,687 --> 00:30:43,367
Speaker 3: times sexual relationships with It was incredible because we got

582
00:30:43,367 --> 00:30:47,367
Speaker 3: to know each other really well sexually. Kind words were exchanged.

583
00:30:47,727 --> 00:30:50,287
Speaker 3: There was one man who told me over and over again.

584
00:30:50,327 --> 00:30:52,167
Speaker 3: He still tells me that he loves me. I think

585
00:30:52,207 --> 00:30:54,407
Speaker 3: he really does, even though he didn't want to be

586
00:30:54,767 --> 00:30:57,447
Speaker 3: in a committed relationship. It was real love. So that

587
00:30:57,607 --> 00:31:00,607
Speaker 3: was absolutely lovely and wonderful. And yes we did do

588
00:31:00,727 --> 00:31:02,407
Speaker 3: things that you know, there was a lot of oral

589
00:31:02,447 --> 00:31:05,087
Speaker 3: sex involved. I had had anal sex when I was

590
00:31:05,087 --> 00:31:08,767
Speaker 3: a teenager because I had a very experimental boyfriend, very fortunate.

591
00:31:09,047 --> 00:31:11,887
Speaker 3: But he honestly, this will make you laugh, he didn't

592
00:31:11,927 --> 00:31:14,447
Speaker 3: know that you were supposed to use lubrication for anal sex.

593
00:31:14,767 --> 00:31:18,127
Speaker 1: Oh oh oh oh. So it had really hurt and

594
00:31:18,167 --> 00:31:19,367
Speaker 1: that would have put you off.

595
00:31:19,407 --> 00:31:20,607
Speaker 3: But I was like, you know what, I wanted to

596
00:31:20,607 --> 00:31:22,647
Speaker 3: try that again, and we'll use a lot of lube

597
00:31:22,647 --> 00:31:25,127
Speaker 3: this time. And you know, there was a lot of

598
00:31:25,167 --> 00:31:28,567
Speaker 3: fun like that, having sex outdoors, having sex in the

599
00:31:28,567 --> 00:31:31,207
Speaker 3: middle of the day, having a man drive two and

600
00:31:31,247 --> 00:31:33,247
Speaker 3: a half hours to have sex with me in the

601
00:31:33,287 --> 00:31:35,607
Speaker 3: two hour window that I had that day. You know,

602
00:31:35,687 --> 00:31:37,447
Speaker 3: it was all thrilling and it made me feel good.

603
00:31:37,487 --> 00:31:39,047
Speaker 3: And you know what, I wanted to say one other

604
00:31:39,087 --> 00:31:41,727
Speaker 3: thing about boundaries that you asked about. I did have

605
00:31:41,767 --> 00:31:44,767
Speaker 3: some rules that I think it's important to think about

606
00:31:44,767 --> 00:31:46,447
Speaker 3: if you're going to embark on this kind of adventure.

607
00:31:46,927 --> 00:31:50,767
Speaker 3: I never, and I mean never even flirted with somebody

608
00:31:50,807 --> 00:31:54,527
Speaker 3: whose wife or former wife I knew. Never. I didn't

609
00:31:54,567 --> 00:31:57,167
Speaker 3: like needy men. And I also I did not like

610
00:31:57,207 --> 00:32:00,087
Speaker 3: men with young children. I just I felt too bad

611
00:32:00,087 --> 00:32:02,887
Speaker 3: about I needed men who really were unencumbered and who

612
00:32:02,927 --> 00:32:05,647
Speaker 3: were free, and who were not cheating liars.

613
00:32:06,167 --> 00:32:08,967
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's not necessarily your business if they are

614
00:32:09,007 --> 00:32:13,527
Speaker 1: in another relationship, but you're certainly not husband hunting at

615
00:32:13,567 --> 00:32:16,887
Speaker 1: the school parent teach tonight. That's not that's not what

616
00:32:16,927 --> 00:32:17,567
Speaker 1: we're doing here.

617
00:32:17,767 --> 00:32:19,527
Speaker 3: I couldn't have done that. That would have been so

618
00:32:19,527 --> 00:32:21,167
Speaker 3: so awful. And I also I did a lot of

619
00:32:21,207 --> 00:32:24,487
Speaker 3: men who were in the process of separating and getting divorced,

620
00:32:24,567 --> 00:32:26,767
Speaker 3: and I didn't ask many questions about that either. Yeah,

621
00:32:26,807 --> 00:32:29,847
Speaker 3: because again I felt like, that's not my business, your business, Leslie.

622
00:32:29,887 --> 00:32:32,207
Speaker 1: I just want to tell you how refreshing and wonderful

623
00:32:32,207 --> 00:32:35,207
Speaker 1: it was to hear you say I wanted to be

624
00:32:35,247 --> 00:32:39,367
Speaker 1: adored and every woman needs that sometimes because you know what,

625
00:32:39,447 --> 00:32:42,527
Speaker 1: I think that we are told all the time, like

626
00:32:42,807 --> 00:32:44,487
Speaker 1: you know, who do you think you are? You know

627
00:32:44,487 --> 00:32:46,007
Speaker 1: what I mean, who do you think you are? Why

628
00:32:46,047 --> 00:32:49,327
Speaker 1: should you be treated that? Well? Like, it's a very

629
00:32:49,367 --> 00:32:51,967
Speaker 1: bold thing for a woman to say, I wanted to

630
00:32:51,967 --> 00:32:54,447
Speaker 1: be treated like a goddess. I wanted them to worship me.

631
00:32:54,607 --> 00:32:56,647
Speaker 1: I needed that to help put myself back together or

632
00:32:56,687 --> 00:32:59,767
Speaker 1: just to feel like me again. Did you cop judgment

633
00:32:59,807 --> 00:33:03,727
Speaker 1: from people in your life for doing something so unashamedly

634
00:33:04,807 --> 00:33:07,527
Speaker 1: positively you focused, No.

635
00:33:08,127 --> 00:33:10,647
Speaker 3: I think that people women saw what I was doing,

636
00:33:10,847 --> 00:33:13,287
Speaker 3: and the only negative thing is they might have been

637
00:33:13,287 --> 00:33:15,527
Speaker 3: a little bit envious of it. A lot of other

638
00:33:15,567 --> 00:33:17,967
Speaker 3: women had done what I did, but not so publicly,

639
00:33:18,207 --> 00:33:20,967
Speaker 3: and they came and quietly told me to keep going

640
00:33:21,007 --> 00:33:23,327
Speaker 3: that they were still doing it. And also men really

641
00:33:23,407 --> 00:33:26,487
Speaker 3: loved it. Men responded very positively. But I just want

642
00:33:26,527 --> 00:33:29,127
Speaker 3: to unpack what you just said about the fact that

643
00:33:29,607 --> 00:33:32,927
Speaker 3: we women are raised to be ashamed of thinking that

644
00:33:33,007 --> 00:33:37,167
Speaker 3: we deserve a lot of that goddess adoration, and the

645
00:33:37,247 --> 00:33:40,167
Speaker 3: reason we are taught that is because it's a lot

646
00:33:40,207 --> 00:33:43,567
Speaker 3: easier for men if they don't have to adore us

647
00:33:44,167 --> 00:33:47,567
Speaker 3: and they don't have to seduce us. And they have

648
00:33:47,647 --> 00:33:50,847
Speaker 3: set it up so that we think we don't deserve it,

649
00:33:51,047 --> 00:33:56,767
Speaker 3: we don't deserve the flowers and the compliments. And the science, unfortunately,

650
00:33:56,887 --> 00:33:59,287
Speaker 3: is not in men's favor, because the science is that

651
00:33:59,327 --> 00:34:03,207
Speaker 3: what is an aphrodisiac for women sexually is to be seduced,

652
00:34:03,447 --> 00:34:06,167
Speaker 3: to be chased, to be treated like a goddess. And

653
00:34:06,207 --> 00:34:09,087
Speaker 3: it is the thing that goes out the window almost

654
00:34:09,247 --> 00:34:12,127
Speaker 3: immediately in most marriages. Most men think, oh, I don't

655
00:34:12,127 --> 00:34:14,207
Speaker 3: have to do that anymore. She's here, she's in the

656
00:34:14,247 --> 00:34:15,887
Speaker 3: bed with me. I can have sex with her whenever

657
00:34:15,927 --> 00:34:17,967
Speaker 3: I want. I don't even have to be nice to her,

658
00:34:18,007 --> 00:34:19,647
Speaker 3: and she has to have sex with me. And in

659
00:34:19,687 --> 00:34:22,687
Speaker 3: some countries it's literally true you're obligated to have sex

660
00:34:22,687 --> 00:34:27,447
Speaker 3: with your husband. But even in progressive democracies where women

661
00:34:27,447 --> 00:34:30,207
Speaker 3: have raps, men very much think that they don't have

662
00:34:30,247 --> 00:34:32,647
Speaker 3: to seduce women anymore. I say to men and to

663
00:34:32,727 --> 00:34:34,967
Speaker 3: women all the time, if you're if you're married and

664
00:34:35,007 --> 00:34:36,647
Speaker 3: your wife doesn't want to have sex with you, it's

665
00:34:36,687 --> 00:34:40,287
Speaker 3: your fault. It's not her fault. It's because you have

666
00:34:40,367 --> 00:34:41,647
Speaker 3: stopped trying to seduce her.

667
00:34:41,727 --> 00:34:44,807
Speaker 1: Amen, leslie, Amen. And you know what, there would be

668
00:34:44,847 --> 00:34:47,287
Speaker 1: people who listen to this and would say, oh, you're

669
00:34:47,287 --> 00:34:49,887
Speaker 1: not even allowed to seduce a woman anymore, like you're

670
00:34:49,927 --> 00:34:52,207
Speaker 1: not even allowed to say. But one of the things

671
00:34:52,247 --> 00:34:54,687
Speaker 1: I very much heard and understood from you when you

672
00:34:54,727 --> 00:34:57,447
Speaker 1: said I don't like slimy men. I don't like creepy men.

673
00:34:57,607 --> 00:35:02,687
Speaker 1: Women have a very good radar for when a man

674
00:35:03,327 --> 00:35:07,967
Speaker 1: is sexually harassing them in an inappropriate way, or when

675
00:35:08,207 --> 00:35:11,207
Speaker 1: this is a positive exchange that we're both into. Let

676
00:35:11,327 --> 00:35:14,327
Speaker 1: women know that difference. Wouldn't you agree it's true?

677
00:35:14,367 --> 00:35:16,767
Speaker 3: But it's because we've been dealing with it since we

678
00:35:16,767 --> 00:35:20,767
Speaker 3: were eight years old, and we understand what is an aggressive,

679
00:35:21,287 --> 00:35:24,647
Speaker 3: slimy come on, and what is really a man who

680
00:35:24,687 --> 00:35:29,487
Speaker 3: appreciates us and who almost more importantly, is a man

681
00:35:29,527 --> 00:35:31,887
Speaker 3: who loves women. I mean, those are the type of

682
00:35:31,887 --> 00:35:33,607
Speaker 3: men I look for, are the men who have gone

683
00:35:33,647 --> 00:35:37,487
Speaker 3: through their whole life thinking women are fantastic and they're

684
00:35:37,607 --> 00:35:39,847
Speaker 3: very lucky to be a man, and that women we

685
00:35:39,927 --> 00:35:43,567
Speaker 3: smell good, we taste good, we're soft, we're gentle, we're wonderful.

686
00:35:43,767 --> 00:35:45,407
Speaker 3: That's the kind of man that I'm looking for. I

687
00:35:45,447 --> 00:35:48,167
Speaker 3: don't want that man who wants to corner me and

688
00:35:48,247 --> 00:35:50,047
Speaker 3: force me to do something I don't want to do.

689
00:35:50,167 --> 00:35:52,207
Speaker 3: I've dealt with enough of that. It terrifies me. It's

690
00:35:52,287 --> 00:35:54,007
Speaker 3: terrified me since I was a very young girl with

691
00:35:54,087 --> 00:35:55,927
Speaker 3: good reason, and most women are like that.

692
00:35:56,367 --> 00:36:00,767
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. After the break, Leslie takes us

693
00:36:00,767 --> 00:36:03,847
Speaker 1: through what happened when she actually fell in love again.

694
00:36:07,327 --> 00:36:09,967
Speaker 1: Let's get to Jake. You did know, oh, Jake. He

695
00:36:10,047 --> 00:36:13,287
Speaker 1: was not a stranger from an airport. He was from

696
00:36:13,327 --> 00:36:14,447
Speaker 1: your school days.

697
00:36:14,727 --> 00:36:16,567
Speaker 3: I'm just going to get so sad, even though it's

698
00:36:16,567 --> 00:36:19,447
Speaker 3: been so long to me, it's such a sad story.

699
00:36:20,087 --> 00:36:22,607
Speaker 3: So Jake, I had dated him when I was in

700
00:36:22,687 --> 00:36:26,327
Speaker 3: high school. He was two years younger than me in

701
00:36:26,407 --> 00:36:29,167
Speaker 3: high school, but we had a lot in common. He

702
00:36:29,247 --> 00:36:33,527
Speaker 3: was also a writer. He was a wonderful, wonderful young

703
00:36:33,687 --> 00:36:36,527
Speaker 3: man when I was eighteen and he was sixteen, and

704
00:36:37,447 --> 00:36:41,207
Speaker 3: we had had a kind of ill fated romance because

705
00:36:41,247 --> 00:36:43,607
Speaker 3: he was just too young and I was kind of

706
00:36:43,727 --> 00:36:45,967
Speaker 3: dealing with a lot of problems in my family and

707
00:36:46,007 --> 00:36:48,607
Speaker 3: other distractions, and so we had dated only for a

708
00:36:48,647 --> 00:36:51,247
Speaker 3: few months. And he had thought he was going to

709
00:36:51,247 --> 00:36:53,927
Speaker 3: lose his virginity to me, and he was very, very

710
00:36:53,927 --> 00:36:57,327
Speaker 3: sad that he hadn't. So he had always held a candle,

711
00:36:57,767 --> 00:36:59,647
Speaker 3: you know, a torch for me. And we had stayed

712
00:36:59,647 --> 00:37:02,967
Speaker 3: friends for a long time, for over twenty years. We

713
00:37:03,007 --> 00:37:06,287
Speaker 3: both became successful writers. We talked several times a year,

714
00:37:06,607 --> 00:37:08,527
Speaker 3: and I had met every girlfriend he'd ever had, and

715
00:37:08,567 --> 00:37:11,367
Speaker 3: I I thought they were all that he was punching

716
00:37:11,407 --> 00:37:16,087
Speaker 3: below his weight. And so we reunited. He had had

717
00:37:16,207 --> 00:37:18,727
Speaker 3: a book published and he'd come to my town and

718
00:37:18,847 --> 00:37:20,447
Speaker 3: I went to the book reading and I was very

719
00:37:20,447 --> 00:37:23,807
Speaker 3: happy for him. And then, to my shock, he rang

720
00:37:23,847 --> 00:37:27,607
Speaker 3: my doorball later that night, and I hadn't been expecting him,

721
00:37:27,967 --> 00:37:31,647
Speaker 3: and it was incredibly romantic. He told me he had

722
00:37:31,647 --> 00:37:34,727
Speaker 3: been waiting for me forever, and we had sex in

723
00:37:34,847 --> 00:37:37,367
Speaker 3: every room of my house that night, on every piece

724
00:37:37,367 --> 00:37:39,487
Speaker 3: of furniture, like we really made up for lost time,

725
00:37:39,567 --> 00:37:44,807
Speaker 3: and it was really unbelievably romantic. Eventually he convinced me

726
00:37:45,007 --> 00:37:46,847
Speaker 3: to get rid of all the other boyfriends and to

727
00:37:46,927 --> 00:37:49,687
Speaker 3: just be with him, and he seduced me with his letters.

728
00:37:49,727 --> 00:37:52,367
Speaker 3: He wrote me the most beautiful letters in the world,

729
00:37:52,527 --> 00:37:54,247
Speaker 3: and they're all in The Naked Truth. I got his

730
00:37:54,327 --> 00:37:59,407
Speaker 3: permission to reprint them, and I fell so deeply in

731
00:37:59,447 --> 00:38:02,607
Speaker 3: love with him. And I tell you, there is nothing

732
00:38:02,807 --> 00:38:06,127
Speaker 3: like the first person you fall in love with after

733
00:38:06,567 --> 00:38:10,767
Speaker 3: the end of a long, unhappy marriage. Was I just

734
00:38:10,887 --> 00:38:14,087
Speaker 3: was very vulnerable. He made me feel beautiful and sexy

735
00:38:14,127 --> 00:38:17,367
Speaker 3: and cherished and you know, literally like he'd been waiting

736
00:38:17,407 --> 00:38:20,487
Speaker 3: decades for me. And he was quite a magnificent man.

737
00:38:20,567 --> 00:38:23,487
Speaker 3: He was really handsome, really fit, he'd never been married,

738
00:38:23,527 --> 00:38:28,087
Speaker 3: he didn't have kids, wickedly funny and unbelievable in the sack,

739
00:38:28,407 --> 00:38:32,687
Speaker 3: I mean, made me scream with pleasure in ways that

740
00:38:32,727 --> 00:38:34,887
Speaker 3: I never had before. And it was a two way

741
00:38:34,967 --> 00:38:38,087
Speaker 3: street too. We were very, very compatible sexually. We couldn't

742
00:38:38,167 --> 00:38:40,247
Speaker 3: keep our hands off each other even in public. It

743
00:38:40,367 --> 00:38:43,007
Speaker 3: was really an intoxicating relationship. Is the kind of relationship

744
00:38:43,047 --> 00:38:45,727
Speaker 3: a lot of people have in their teens are twenties,

745
00:38:45,767 --> 00:38:48,687
Speaker 3: and here we're having it in our early fifties. And

746
00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:51,767
Speaker 3: I started writing The Naked Truth when I was still

747
00:38:51,767 --> 00:38:52,287
Speaker 3: with him.

748
00:38:52,327 --> 00:38:53,327
Speaker 1: And he knew about that.

749
00:38:53,487 --> 00:38:54,367
Speaker 3: Oh, he knew all about it.

750
00:38:54,487 --> 00:38:56,127
Speaker 1: And he knew about it at the time too.

751
00:38:56,167 --> 00:38:58,247
Speaker 3: Yes, he knew I was writing about him, and he

752
00:38:58,327 --> 00:39:00,607
Speaker 3: knew that I had had all these lovers. He was

753
00:39:00,727 --> 00:39:03,567
Speaker 3: very supportive of it, and the plot was going to

754
00:39:03,607 --> 00:39:06,327
Speaker 3: be after my five lovers and I found my one

755
00:39:06,367 --> 00:39:10,527
Speaker 3: true love. And the day I signed the book contract

756
00:39:10,527 --> 00:39:14,207
Speaker 3: for The Naked Truth, we broke up. And I was devastated.

757
00:39:14,607 --> 00:39:16,447
Speaker 3: He broke up with me, and I was devastated by

758
00:39:16,447 --> 00:39:17,847
Speaker 3: the ways that he did it and what I eventually

759
00:39:17,887 --> 00:39:21,487
Speaker 3: learned he'd been doing. But the writer in me, Holly,

760
00:39:22,007 --> 00:39:23,447
Speaker 3: oh gosh, got.

761
00:39:23,287 --> 00:39:24,567
Speaker 1: Rubbed your hands together.

762
00:39:24,727 --> 00:39:28,567
Speaker 3: Okay, the ending just got so much better, so much

763
00:39:28,607 --> 00:39:32,447
Speaker 3: more real, because men are not the pot of gold

764
00:39:32,487 --> 00:39:34,647
Speaker 3: at the end of the rainbow. There are not There

765
00:39:34,807 --> 00:39:38,607
Speaker 3: is no Prince Charming. Yes, that mythology has gotten all

766
00:39:38,647 --> 00:39:40,207
Speaker 3: of us in so much trouble. And it's not fair

767
00:39:40,247 --> 00:39:41,967
Speaker 3: to men either, because they don't want to be Prince Charming.

768
00:39:41,967 --> 00:39:43,887
Speaker 3: It's a big burden to put on them. And so

769
00:39:43,967 --> 00:39:46,847
Speaker 3: I knew that the book had just gotten so much

770
00:39:46,847 --> 00:39:47,567
Speaker 3: more raw.

771
00:39:47,847 --> 00:39:51,407
Speaker 1: Oh leslie, Yes, because not in any way to discount

772
00:39:51,447 --> 00:39:53,527
Speaker 1: your heartbreak, which is very real and in the book.

773
00:39:53,607 --> 00:39:56,247
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really difficult because you can see how

774
00:39:56,287 --> 00:39:58,527
Speaker 1: painful that was. But in a way, if the book

775
00:39:58,527 --> 00:40:01,367
Speaker 1: had ended that way, it would have been a little

776
00:40:01,367 --> 00:40:05,727
Speaker 1: bit predictable, baby, Oh not predictable, but like a bit

777
00:40:05,767 --> 00:40:06,407
Speaker 1: too tidy.

778
00:40:06,727 --> 00:40:10,287
Speaker 3: And I would have sold out the sisterhood because it

779
00:40:10,327 --> 00:40:13,287
Speaker 3: doesn't end like that. It never ends in happily ever after.

780
00:40:13,367 --> 00:40:15,287
Speaker 3: And what I want to say now, you know it's

781
00:40:15,367 --> 00:40:18,727
Speaker 3: ten years later and I'm going to turn sixty next year,

782
00:40:18,767 --> 00:40:22,367
Speaker 3: and I'm looking at true old age. People always say

783
00:40:22,367 --> 00:40:24,887
Speaker 3: to me, aren't you afraid? You know You're going to

784
00:40:24,967 --> 00:40:27,487
Speaker 3: die alone? And what I have to say is, you

785
00:40:27,527 --> 00:40:29,807
Speaker 3: know what, We are all going to die alone. We

786
00:40:29,887 --> 00:40:32,767
Speaker 3: are all going to die alone. Everybody knows this. And

787
00:40:33,047 --> 00:40:36,127
Speaker 3: have you met a man who is capable of taking

788
00:40:36,167 --> 00:40:38,887
Speaker 3: care of a woman, a dying woman, an aged woman,

789
00:40:39,367 --> 00:40:42,367
Speaker 3: older men. They don't put in their hearing aids. They're

790
00:40:42,487 --> 00:40:45,647
Speaker 3: terrible at advocating for anybody. They don't like hospitals, they

791
00:40:45,647 --> 00:40:47,607
Speaker 3: don't like this. There's no way on earth a man

792
00:40:47,727 --> 00:40:49,247
Speaker 3: is going to take care of us. I'm sorry to

793
00:40:49,247 --> 00:40:52,047
Speaker 3: tell everybody listening to it, but I'm actually happy to

794
00:40:52,047 --> 00:40:54,327
Speaker 3: tell you this because it's true. You're going to take

795
00:40:54,327 --> 00:40:56,367
Speaker 3: care of you, and the people are going to be

796
00:40:56,407 --> 00:40:59,127
Speaker 3: there for you. Are your best friends, male and female.

797
00:40:59,727 --> 00:41:02,207
Speaker 3: The healthcare system and your children, if you have them,

798
00:41:02,607 --> 00:41:04,127
Speaker 3: that's just going to take care of you. It's not

799
00:41:04,167 --> 00:41:06,287
Speaker 3: going to be a man. There's no happily ever after.

800
00:41:06,407 --> 00:41:10,367
Speaker 3: And men think that women are going to take care

801
00:41:10,407 --> 00:41:13,047
Speaker 3: of them, and they're right because we've been conditioned our

802
00:41:13,047 --> 00:41:14,567
Speaker 3: whole life to do it. I'm not going to do it,

803
00:41:14,607 --> 00:41:16,447
Speaker 3: and I would urge you to think about not doing it,

804
00:41:16,487 --> 00:41:17,767
Speaker 3: because there are a lot better things to do with

805
00:41:17,807 --> 00:41:20,047
Speaker 3: your life than take care of a man who would

806
00:41:20,087 --> 00:41:23,047
Speaker 3: never take care of you anyway. But anyway, I digress.

807
00:41:23,127 --> 00:41:25,767
Speaker 1: I love that rant. We've just had a rash of

808
00:41:25,807 --> 00:41:28,407
Speaker 1: people at MoMA Mea where I work, and we're writing

809
00:41:28,727 --> 00:41:32,167
Speaker 1: women talking about the men who've left them after serious diagnoses.

810
00:41:32,847 --> 00:41:36,567
Speaker 1: It is a shockingly common thing that happens. Anyway, we

811
00:41:36,607 --> 00:41:38,487
Speaker 1: do digress. I want to go back to one thing

812
00:41:38,487 --> 00:41:40,927
Speaker 1: about Jake. That story is heartbreaking, But you know what

813
00:41:41,047 --> 00:41:45,927
Speaker 1: is very common in midlife when you are going through

814
00:41:45,967 --> 00:41:49,247
Speaker 1: a divorce is to either fantasize about or act on

815
00:41:49,407 --> 00:41:54,167
Speaker 1: going back to a high school or an early adult relationship,

816
00:41:54,247 --> 00:41:59,487
Speaker 1: right because it's almost like reconnecting with who you were then.

817
00:41:59,687 --> 00:42:02,007
Speaker 1: And it's so beautiful the way you talk about that,

818
00:42:02,087 --> 00:42:05,167
Speaker 1: because for a while there. It was like that you were,

819
00:42:05,327 --> 00:42:08,367
Speaker 1: as you said, making up for lost time, having this

820
00:42:08,527 --> 00:42:13,327
Speaker 1: insane connection that felt like teenage love again. But it

821
00:42:13,367 --> 00:42:16,847
Speaker 1: didn't play out that way, and very often these relationships don't.

822
00:42:16,927 --> 00:42:18,367
Speaker 1: Am I right, It's.

823
00:42:18,207 --> 00:42:21,687
Speaker 3: So true, and I say, beware the fantasy. I am

824
00:42:21,847 --> 00:42:26,047
Speaker 3: one of the best fantasizers ever born, and I can

825
00:42:26,127 --> 00:42:28,247
Speaker 3: make something out of nothing. And what I did with

826
00:42:28,367 --> 00:42:31,167
Speaker 3: Jake is I thought I knew him because I had

827
00:42:31,207 --> 00:42:33,567
Speaker 3: known him as a teenager and a lot had happened

828
00:42:33,647 --> 00:42:35,647
Speaker 3: in the time between them, and I hadn't really known

829
00:42:35,687 --> 00:42:37,687
Speaker 3: him as a teenager either. I really hadn't. We hadn't

830
00:42:37,727 --> 00:42:40,127
Speaker 3: dated for long enough, so I thought I knew him,

831
00:42:40,127 --> 00:42:42,327
Speaker 3: and I made up this story in my head about

832
00:42:42,327 --> 00:42:44,247
Speaker 3: who he was, what our love was, That he hadn't

833
00:42:44,247 --> 00:42:47,327
Speaker 3: married anybody because he'd been waiting for me, that I

834
00:42:47,487 --> 00:42:49,887
Speaker 3: was his one true love. That's why he'd been unhappy

835
00:42:49,927 --> 00:42:53,327
Speaker 3: in other relationships, is why he cheated on every girlfriend

836
00:42:53,407 --> 00:42:56,967
Speaker 3: he'd ever had. It's because that girlfriend wasn't me, and

837
00:42:57,007 --> 00:43:00,847
Speaker 3: I ignored so many red flags. This is one of

838
00:43:00,887 --> 00:43:03,607
Speaker 3: my favorite red flags. The first gift that Jake ever

839
00:43:03,647 --> 00:43:05,367
Speaker 3: gave me is he gave me a book by a

840
00:43:05,487 --> 00:43:08,207
Speaker 3: very famous writer, and it's called This Is How You

841
00:43:08,287 --> 00:43:10,927
Speaker 3: Lose Her. It is the story of a man who

842
00:43:10,967 --> 00:43:14,247
Speaker 3: reconnects with a girlfriend and he loses her by cheating

843
00:43:14,287 --> 00:43:17,167
Speaker 3: on her with hundreds of women. And that is what

844
00:43:17,287 --> 00:43:20,807
Speaker 3: Jake did to me. When we broke up. He accused

845
00:43:20,887 --> 00:43:23,647
Speaker 3: me of cheating on him, and he had broken into

846
00:43:23,647 --> 00:43:25,527
Speaker 3: my computer and into my phone, and he had been

847
00:43:25,767 --> 00:43:28,807
Speaker 3: essentially spying on me for months at the same time

848
00:43:28,847 --> 00:43:33,407
Speaker 3: he was cheating on me, and it was absolutely devastating.

849
00:43:33,607 --> 00:43:35,567
Speaker 3: I did not stop crying for about six months, and

850
00:43:35,607 --> 00:43:38,847
Speaker 3: it was so humiliating, embarrassing. Here I am, this mom

851
00:43:38,887 --> 00:43:41,687
Speaker 3: taking care of these kids with a great career, and

852
00:43:41,887 --> 00:43:45,287
Speaker 3: I cannot go to the supermarket without a box of tissues.

853
00:43:45,327 --> 00:43:48,487
Speaker 3: And I'm not exaggerating. And it's only now, almost ten

854
00:43:48,567 --> 00:43:51,527
Speaker 3: years later, that I cannot cry about it. And also

855
00:43:51,647 --> 00:43:55,727
Speaker 3: just acknowledge what a horrible person he was and that

856
00:43:56,087 --> 00:43:59,207
Speaker 3: everybody could see it except for me, and that I

857
00:43:59,327 --> 00:44:01,287
Speaker 3: just made up a personality for him and I fell

858
00:44:01,327 --> 00:44:02,847
Speaker 3: in love with a fantasy. And I just want to

859
00:44:02,847 --> 00:44:06,447
Speaker 3: warn everybody listening, please don't do that. Please don't do that.

860
00:44:06,687 --> 00:44:09,607
Speaker 3: It's really dangerous and horrible, and I'm really lucky I

861
00:44:09,607 --> 00:44:11,407
Speaker 3: didn't marry him, that I didn't give all my money

862
00:44:11,447 --> 00:44:13,927
Speaker 3: to him, that I didn't alienate my kids over him.

863
00:44:13,967 --> 00:44:17,167
Speaker 3: I'm so lucky that he was so fucked up that

864
00:44:17,207 --> 00:44:20,927
Speaker 3: he broke up with me at that point and moved

865
00:44:20,967 --> 00:44:22,927
Speaker 3: on with the woman who is having a interfere with

866
00:44:23,047 --> 00:44:25,847
Speaker 3: I'm so incredibly fortunate. I didn't feel that way at

867
00:44:25,847 --> 00:44:28,087
Speaker 3: the time, but now I'm so grateful that that it

868
00:44:28,127 --> 00:44:28,767
Speaker 3: happened that way.

869
00:44:29,287 --> 00:44:32,207
Speaker 1: It's interesting because one of the things about midlife is

870
00:44:32,207 --> 00:44:34,647
Speaker 1: that we think we're very wise, and we are. You know,

871
00:44:34,647 --> 00:44:37,327
Speaker 1: we've been through a lot of things, but we are

872
00:44:37,367 --> 00:44:40,007
Speaker 1: still as capable as we were when we were young,

873
00:44:40,167 --> 00:44:43,967
Speaker 1: of wanting to believe something so much, you know, just

874
00:44:44,607 --> 00:44:47,767
Speaker 1: so ignoring all the things that we have learned, and

875
00:44:47,887 --> 00:44:52,407
Speaker 1: just jumping in anyway before we move on to just

876
00:44:52,447 --> 00:44:54,607
Speaker 1: how life is now for you. And we won't go

877
00:44:54,647 --> 00:44:56,127
Speaker 1: through all of these because I want people to read

878
00:44:56,247 --> 00:44:59,367
Speaker 1: your wonderful book, Naked Truth. It is a great read too.

879
00:44:59,407 --> 00:45:01,847
Speaker 1: It's a rollicking page turn to read. I love it.

880
00:45:02,207 --> 00:45:03,887
Speaker 1: But at the end you kind of give a little

881
00:45:03,927 --> 00:45:06,767
Speaker 1: cheat sheet to women who might be not necessarily going

882
00:45:06,807 --> 00:45:09,167
Speaker 1: I want to have five boyfriends but who are redisc

883
00:45:09,327 --> 00:45:13,567
Speaker 1: covering their sexual self, their romantic self. And we've touched

884
00:45:13,607 --> 00:45:15,327
Speaker 1: on them a little bit when we're talking about airports.

885
00:45:15,727 --> 00:45:17,887
Speaker 1: But I wanted to just ask you about the best

886
00:45:17,887 --> 00:45:19,767
Speaker 1: advice you would give a woman who's listening to this,

887
00:45:19,847 --> 00:45:23,287
Speaker 1: who's thinking, maybe her self confidence has been destroyed by

888
00:45:23,447 --> 00:45:26,967
Speaker 1: a marriage or a long relationship or whatever, and she

889
00:45:27,167 --> 00:45:30,607
Speaker 1: wants to rediscover herself. You say, go out solo as

890
00:45:30,647 --> 00:45:31,447
Speaker 1: much as possible.

891
00:45:31,647 --> 00:45:34,167
Speaker 3: It is really true. Go out by yourself. You're much

892
00:45:34,167 --> 00:45:37,407
Speaker 3: more approachable when you travel by yourself, go out to

893
00:45:37,447 --> 00:45:40,527
Speaker 3: the movies by yourself, go out to a restaurant, walk, exercise,

894
00:45:40,607 --> 00:45:44,927
Speaker 3: all of the stuff. Go out by yourself. That's really important. Also,

895
00:45:45,167 --> 00:45:48,487
Speaker 3: some of these things are so easy. Smile at everybody.

896
00:45:48,767 --> 00:45:53,127
Speaker 3: Smiling is really sexy and approachable. And also smile at

897
00:45:53,167 --> 00:45:55,367
Speaker 3: the women because you need more female friends too. Just

898
00:45:55,407 --> 00:45:57,887
Speaker 3: smile at everybody, and if you think somebody slimy or

899
00:45:57,927 --> 00:46:01,127
Speaker 3: they're you know, getting a little too enthusiastic too fast,

900
00:46:01,247 --> 00:46:03,567
Speaker 3: then run away. But you're not going to do any

901
00:46:03,607 --> 00:46:07,807
Speaker 3: harm by smiling at everybody. I also think every time

902
00:46:07,887 --> 00:46:09,647
Speaker 3: I leave the house, even if I'm just taking out

903
00:46:09,647 --> 00:46:13,687
Speaker 3: the trash, I look in the mirror and I do

904
00:46:13,807 --> 00:46:16,367
Speaker 3: something to make myself feel like I'm my best self.

905
00:46:16,367 --> 00:46:19,087
Speaker 3: Maybe I'll put on lipstick or eyeline, or take out

906
00:46:19,087 --> 00:46:21,167
Speaker 3: the trash in my high heeled cowboy boots a lot.

907
00:46:21,887 --> 00:46:25,607
Speaker 3: And it's because I want to strut. I want to

908
00:46:25,687 --> 00:46:30,367
Speaker 3: feel like I'm strutworthy. And it's not the boots, it's

909
00:46:30,367 --> 00:46:33,367
Speaker 3: the attitude. If you are walking down the street like that,

910
00:46:34,407 --> 00:46:37,727
Speaker 3: you look confident and you attract attention and you are

911
00:46:37,847 --> 00:46:39,487
Speaker 3: your best self on that.

912
00:46:39,527 --> 00:46:41,367
Speaker 1: Because I love this one, and it might be a

913
00:46:41,407 --> 00:46:44,327
Speaker 1: bit surprising to people who you know are thinking about

914
00:46:44,327 --> 00:46:46,047
Speaker 1: you putting your lipsticon as you go to take the

915
00:46:46,047 --> 00:46:49,367
Speaker 1: trash out, but I love this. You say, be transparent,

916
00:46:49,727 --> 00:46:52,047
Speaker 1: where as little makeup as possible. So this isn't about

917
00:46:52,047 --> 00:46:54,647
Speaker 1: the lipstick. It's about don't disguise who you are or

918
00:46:54,647 --> 00:46:58,247
Speaker 1: how old you are. It doesn't work. That's really refreshing.

919
00:46:58,367 --> 00:47:01,167
Speaker 1: That's also some confidence right there, because I think it's

920
00:47:01,207 --> 00:47:04,327
Speaker 1: so deeply ingrained in us that our wrinkles are ugly,

921
00:47:04,807 --> 00:47:08,127
Speaker 1: our saggy bits are ugly. You know, put as much

922
00:47:08,167 --> 00:47:10,007
Speaker 1: makeup on as you can to cover that shit up,

923
00:47:10,327 --> 00:47:12,367
Speaker 1: Do as many things as you can to try and

924
00:47:12,407 --> 00:47:15,847
Speaker 1: still look like thirty four year old you. But your

925
00:47:15,927 --> 00:47:20,007
Speaker 1: experiences that no, don't do that right, tell me why.

926
00:47:20,167 --> 00:47:23,727
Speaker 3: So you know, there are so many tropes that women

927
00:47:23,887 --> 00:47:26,647
Speaker 3: are taught from the time that we're very young that

928
00:47:26,967 --> 00:47:28,967
Speaker 3: you just have to throw all of them out. And

929
00:47:29,687 --> 00:47:32,567
Speaker 3: one of them is that after a certain age you're

930
00:47:32,607 --> 00:47:37,687
Speaker 3: invisible to men, that men don't notice women, and it's

931
00:47:37,727 --> 00:47:41,727
Speaker 3: just not true. Men are very visual and very physical

932
00:47:41,767 --> 00:47:43,767
Speaker 3: and they are going to notice us until the day

933
00:47:43,807 --> 00:47:46,527
Speaker 3: we die. And some people want to be invisible, and

934
00:47:46,567 --> 00:47:48,687
Speaker 3: that's so great, So go and be invisible. I don't

935
00:47:48,687 --> 00:47:50,487
Speaker 3: want to be invisible, and I think that honestly, most

936
00:47:50,527 --> 00:47:55,687
Speaker 3: people don't. And so it's part of being transparent is saying, hey,

937
00:47:55,687 --> 00:47:58,647
Speaker 3: i'm here. I'm here, and I like attention and I

938
00:47:58,727 --> 00:48:01,167
Speaker 3: want attention, and I'm going to give you attention too,

939
00:48:01,207 --> 00:48:03,167
Speaker 3: because I'm going to meet your eyes, I'm going to

940
00:48:03,207 --> 00:48:04,927
Speaker 3: look into your eyes, I'm going to smile at you.

941
00:48:05,447 --> 00:48:07,447
Speaker 3: I don't know if this only happens in Washington, DC,

942
00:48:07,607 --> 00:48:10,927
Speaker 3: my hometown, but I have gotten so many marriage proposals

943
00:48:11,087 --> 00:48:13,367
Speaker 3: just walking down the street, Like a guy will lean

944
00:48:13,367 --> 00:48:15,287
Speaker 3: out his car window and say, hey, baby, you want

945
00:48:15,287 --> 00:48:15,847
Speaker 3: to marry me?

946
00:48:16,207 --> 00:48:18,127
Speaker 1: It's your vibe, bloodly, it's your vine.

947
00:48:18,167 --> 00:48:21,527
Speaker 3: I don't ignore them. I just I stop in my tracks.

948
00:48:21,687 --> 00:48:25,687
Speaker 3: I start laughing, and I say sure, and most of

949
00:48:25,727 --> 00:48:29,167
Speaker 3: them keep driving. But it's just that attitude. It's like,

950
00:48:29,207 --> 00:48:32,127
Speaker 3: I appreciate men. I love men, even though they've broken

951
00:48:32,167 --> 00:48:35,447
Speaker 3: my heart so many times. I still really like men,

952
00:48:35,487 --> 00:48:37,967
Speaker 3: and I try to lead with that. So I don't

953
00:48:38,007 --> 00:48:39,527
Speaker 3: try to cover up my wrinkles. I have a lot

954
00:48:39,567 --> 00:48:41,567
Speaker 3: of them. I have a lot of saggy parts. I

955
00:48:41,607 --> 00:48:43,567
Speaker 3: would say, though, that there are a few things that

956
00:48:43,607 --> 00:48:46,487
Speaker 3: women don't necessarily think about. And one of them, and

957
00:48:46,487 --> 00:48:50,647
Speaker 3: I'm going to get very superficial here, your hair really matters.

958
00:48:51,367 --> 00:48:54,567
Speaker 3: Hair is really sexy. Don't cut your hair really short

959
00:48:54,647 --> 00:48:57,287
Speaker 3: unless that's what you like. Yeah, we're told that once

960
00:48:57,327 --> 00:48:59,447
Speaker 3: you have kids you can't have long hair anymore, or

961
00:48:59,487 --> 00:49:02,487
Speaker 3: once you're over fifty you can't have long hair. Grow

962
00:49:02,527 --> 00:49:04,967
Speaker 3: your hair however you want, and dress however you wear.

963
00:49:05,007 --> 00:49:07,967
Speaker 3: I wear the shortest skirts that you've ever seen. Oh,

964
00:49:08,247 --> 00:49:10,407
Speaker 3: I might tell you like shows through it and I

965
00:49:10,447 --> 00:49:14,207
Speaker 3: don't care you do you and just say, forget about

966
00:49:14,247 --> 00:49:16,647
Speaker 3: it with all the rules, do what makes you feel

967
00:49:16,647 --> 00:49:17,447
Speaker 3: good inside.

968
00:49:17,567 --> 00:49:20,807
Speaker 1: I absolutely love that it sounds like you are leaving

969
00:49:20,887 --> 00:49:24,487
Speaker 1: me absolute dream for a lot of women. Can I

970
00:49:24,527 --> 00:49:26,767
Speaker 1: ask you, though, and I know you've written about this before,

971
00:49:27,127 --> 00:49:31,047
Speaker 1: how important economic independence is in that picture, right, Because

972
00:49:31,087 --> 00:49:32,567
Speaker 1: there are may be a lot of women listening to

973
00:49:32,607 --> 00:49:35,807
Speaker 1: this who marriages or relationships might not be perfect, but

974
00:49:35,927 --> 00:49:39,127
Speaker 1: they're thinking, well, I couldn't do that, I couldn't live

975
00:49:39,167 --> 00:49:41,807
Speaker 1: without them financially. Do you think we don't put enough

976
00:49:41,807 --> 00:49:43,327
Speaker 1: stock in planning for that.

977
00:49:43,327 --> 00:49:46,047
Speaker 3: That is the lynchpin of my freedom, is that I'm

978
00:49:46,087 --> 00:49:48,967
Speaker 3: economically independent. And it's what I would say to any

979
00:49:49,007 --> 00:49:53,407
Speaker 3: woman listening, no matter what age, you are, invest in yourself,

980
00:49:53,527 --> 00:49:58,727
Speaker 3: your education, your work, and your bank account. Because if

981
00:49:58,807 --> 00:50:02,127
Speaker 3: I had not done that, and if I didn't stand

982
00:50:02,207 --> 00:50:04,887
Speaker 3: up for myself in my divorce for my second husbands,

983
00:50:04,927 --> 00:50:08,007
Speaker 3: stand up for myself financially, I wouldn't have the economic

984
00:50:08,007 --> 00:50:10,927
Speaker 3: freedom that I have and Holly, I would have had

985
00:50:10,927 --> 00:50:14,167
Speaker 3: to get married again. I would have had to So

986
00:50:14,367 --> 00:50:18,327
Speaker 3: many women are forced into marriages in their fifties that

987
00:50:18,767 --> 00:50:20,407
Speaker 3: might not necessarily be what they want to do, and

988
00:50:20,407 --> 00:50:25,527
Speaker 3: then they're forced into being caretakers. So guard your financial independence.

989
00:50:26,447 --> 00:50:28,287
Speaker 3: That is the pot of gold at the end of

990
00:50:28,287 --> 00:50:30,407
Speaker 3: the rainbow. It is the literal pot of gold because

991
00:50:30,447 --> 00:50:32,687
Speaker 3: it allows me to live on my own and to

992
00:50:32,767 --> 00:50:34,727
Speaker 3: travel and to see my children, and to take care

993
00:50:34,767 --> 00:50:37,407
Speaker 3: of my children, and to do everything that I want

994
00:50:37,447 --> 00:50:41,367
Speaker 3: to do. Of all the mythologies that women are sold,

995
00:50:41,967 --> 00:50:45,207
Speaker 3: the fact that we do not tell women how important

996
00:50:45,247 --> 00:50:49,727
Speaker 3: it is to be economically independent is the most dangerous

997
00:50:50,047 --> 00:50:53,727
Speaker 3: of those myths. That money doesn't matter, that economics don't matter,

998
00:50:54,007 --> 00:50:56,247
Speaker 3: and that you shouldn't fight for yourself financially, whether it's

999
00:50:56,247 --> 00:50:58,287
Speaker 3: fighting for a raise or fighting for a settlement and

1000
00:50:58,287 --> 00:51:02,007
Speaker 3: divorce hogwash. You need to stand up for yourself, and

1001
00:51:02,047 --> 00:51:03,887
Speaker 3: you need to encourage your female friends to fight for

1002
00:51:03,927 --> 00:51:06,007
Speaker 3: themselves too, to ask for a raise, to ask for

1003
00:51:06,007 --> 00:51:08,767
Speaker 3: a better job, and when they're broken hearted and they're

1004
00:51:08,887 --> 00:51:11,327
Speaker 3: thinking they might lose custody of their children if they

1005
00:51:11,327 --> 00:51:13,847
Speaker 3: don't cave financially, tell them to stand up for themselves.

1006
00:51:14,207 --> 00:51:18,007
Speaker 3: You cannot be free and happy if you're not economically independent.

1007
00:51:18,287 --> 00:51:21,767
Speaker 1: You just can't look the naked truth. This adventure, as

1008
00:51:21,807 --> 00:51:24,687
Speaker 1: you say, is almost ten years ago. How have your

1009
00:51:24,727 --> 00:51:30,327
Speaker 1: fifties been sexually and relationship wise? How has life been

1010
00:51:30,407 --> 00:51:32,087
Speaker 1: since The Five Boyfriends? Leslie?

1011
00:51:33,207 --> 00:51:35,607
Speaker 3: So I could write quite a sequel, I bet you can.

1012
00:51:36,687 --> 00:51:38,727
Speaker 3: It took me a long time to recover from Jake.

1013
00:51:39,327 --> 00:51:42,207
Speaker 3: But once I did, I started dating again, and I

1014
00:51:42,247 --> 00:51:44,687
Speaker 3: did the same thing again, although I was looking for

1015
00:51:44,687 --> 00:51:47,047
Speaker 3: a partner. For a while, I dated older men, which

1016
00:51:47,047 --> 00:51:49,367
Speaker 3: I had never done. I had sex with older men.

1017
00:51:49,527 --> 00:51:51,967
Speaker 1: How is that? How are older men? We're not hearing

1018
00:51:52,007 --> 00:51:54,127
Speaker 1: a lot of women saying I want to date an

1019
00:51:54,127 --> 00:51:56,167
Speaker 1: older man once they're in their fifties. Tell me how

1020
00:51:56,167 --> 00:51:56,487
Speaker 1: that was.

1021
00:51:56,847 --> 00:51:59,407
Speaker 3: Okay, I have to tell you. The terrible truth is

1022
00:51:59,447 --> 00:52:01,647
Speaker 3: that I hated it. I hated it. I pushed myself

1023
00:52:01,687 --> 00:52:03,567
Speaker 3: to do it because I just thought, well, maybe I'm

1024
00:52:03,567 --> 00:52:07,367
Speaker 3: missing something. I found that older men were so sexist

1025
00:52:07,967 --> 00:52:10,807
Speaker 3: and they just expected and even more than my own

1026
00:52:10,847 --> 00:52:14,407
Speaker 3: ex husband, they expected me to be very traditional and

1027
00:52:14,527 --> 00:52:17,087
Speaker 3: they weren't any good in bed. They didn't think they

1028
00:52:17,167 --> 00:52:19,887
Speaker 3: had to be, and they is so terrible to say,

1029
00:52:19,967 --> 00:52:22,647
Speaker 3: they were really bony. And I didn't like it. I mean,

1030
00:52:22,687 --> 00:52:25,087
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I had been with twenty nine year olds.

1031
00:52:25,087 --> 00:52:26,847
Speaker 3: I couldn't be with sixty nine year olds. I just

1032
00:52:26,847 --> 00:52:29,567
Speaker 3: couldn't can. So that was a short experiment. I started

1033
00:52:29,647 --> 00:52:31,927
Speaker 3: dating another old friend who I dated off and on

1034
00:52:32,007 --> 00:52:34,087
Speaker 3: for three years. I thought I was going to marry him.

1035
00:52:34,447 --> 00:52:38,047
Speaker 3: He was so wonderful and so lovely. He knew my kids,

1036
00:52:38,087 --> 00:52:40,247
Speaker 3: I knew his kids. I knew both of his ex wives.

1037
00:52:40,247 --> 00:52:41,807
Speaker 3: I like them. There was a lot that was right,

1038
00:52:42,167 --> 00:52:45,887
Speaker 3: but it wasn't quite right enough. And it turned out

1039
00:52:45,887 --> 00:52:49,527
Speaker 3: that he was very possessive and insecure, and it just

1040
00:52:49,527 --> 00:52:51,207
Speaker 3: took a long time to get at the heart of that.

1041
00:52:51,247 --> 00:52:53,087
Speaker 3: And once I figured that out, I wasn't interested in

1042
00:52:53,167 --> 00:52:56,287
Speaker 3: him anymore. So now I'm back to kind of the

1043
00:52:56,407 --> 00:52:58,847
Speaker 3: naked truth thing, where I am dating a couple of

1044
00:52:58,847 --> 00:53:02,407
Speaker 3: different guys. I am having the best sex of my life.

1045
00:53:02,447 --> 00:53:04,407
Speaker 3: I'm so happy that I can say this to you, Holly.

1046
00:53:04,607 --> 00:53:06,807
Speaker 3: I found somebody who's even better in bed than Jake,

1047
00:53:06,967 --> 00:53:08,847
Speaker 3: and I'm so happy about that. I thought that was

1048
00:53:08,887 --> 00:53:12,167
Speaker 3: never going to happen. And maybe I can see the

1049
00:53:12,167 --> 00:53:15,407
Speaker 3: finish line here. Because there are fewer and fewer men,

1050
00:53:15,687 --> 00:53:18,167
Speaker 3: the numbers start to work against us as we get older,

1051
00:53:18,687 --> 00:53:23,007
Speaker 3: and there's a feeding frenzy anytime an attractive man comes

1052
00:53:23,047 --> 00:53:24,887
Speaker 3: on the market, and I just hate it. I don't

1053
00:53:24,887 --> 00:53:26,167
Speaker 3: want to have to work that hard. I don't have

1054
00:53:26,207 --> 00:53:28,047
Speaker 3: to compete with other women because I love other women,

1055
00:53:28,047 --> 00:53:30,407
Speaker 3: and I don't want to compete with them. So I

1056
00:53:30,487 --> 00:53:33,327
Speaker 3: really am at a point where I've accepted that I'm

1057
00:53:33,327 --> 00:53:35,167
Speaker 3: not going to get married again. It would be very

1058
00:53:35,207 --> 00:53:36,967
Speaker 3: unusual if I were to get married again, and then

1059
00:53:37,007 --> 00:53:40,807
Speaker 3: I might not ever ever have a full time, monogamous,

1060
00:53:40,847 --> 00:53:44,527
Speaker 3: committed relationship for two reasons. There aren't as many men

1061
00:53:44,727 --> 00:53:49,167
Speaker 3: out there anymore, and also I don't want it. I

1062
00:53:49,247 --> 00:53:52,047
Speaker 3: treasure my alone time I love. I have three adult children,

1063
00:53:52,127 --> 00:53:54,047
Speaker 3: and I want to be able to go visit them

1064
00:53:54,047 --> 00:53:55,767
Speaker 3: at the drop of a hat. I don't want any

1065
00:53:55,847 --> 00:53:58,767
Speaker 3: men on earth saying that I have to cook them

1066
00:53:58,767 --> 00:54:00,527
Speaker 3: dinner every night and that I can't go visit my

1067
00:54:00,567 --> 00:54:02,847
Speaker 3: kids when I want to. I can't ride horses when

1068
00:54:02,887 --> 00:54:04,607
Speaker 3: I want to, I can't do all the crazy things,

1069
00:54:04,607 --> 00:54:07,047
Speaker 3: you know. I travel a lot. I spent a month

1070
00:54:07,087 --> 00:54:09,087
Speaker 3: and a half in Rome this year. Last year, I

1071
00:54:09,567 --> 00:54:13,167
Speaker 3: Madrid three times. I don't want anybody controlling me. And

1072
00:54:13,207 --> 00:54:16,887
Speaker 3: I've invested in myself in every way, in my self esteem,

1073
00:54:17,007 --> 00:54:20,007
Speaker 3: in my economic independence, and in my lifestyle, so I

1074
00:54:20,007 --> 00:54:22,967
Speaker 3: can do whatever the hell I want. Yes, and I'm

1075
00:54:23,007 --> 00:54:26,367
Speaker 3: doing it. And I just encourage everybody, if this is

1076
00:54:26,407 --> 00:54:27,927
Speaker 3: what you want if you want to be with a

1077
00:54:27,927 --> 00:54:29,687
Speaker 3: lovely man and take care of him for the rest

1078
00:54:29,727 --> 00:54:32,167
Speaker 3: of your life, please go do that if that's what

1079
00:54:32,207 --> 00:54:34,727
Speaker 3: makes you happy. It never made me happy, and it

1080
00:54:34,767 --> 00:54:37,647
Speaker 3: is never going to make me happy, and so I

1081
00:54:37,727 --> 00:54:39,807
Speaker 3: just can't fantasize that that's going to happen, because it's

1082
00:54:39,847 --> 00:54:40,447
Speaker 3: really probably not.

1083
00:54:41,007 --> 00:54:44,167
Speaker 1: Oh I love this again, so many tropes of like

1084
00:54:44,247 --> 00:54:46,327
Speaker 1: this is what happiness looks like. You've got to find

1085
00:54:46,327 --> 00:54:51,167
Speaker 1: the personal happiness looks all kinds of ways. And my god,

1086
00:54:51,407 --> 00:54:55,127
Speaker 1: your life of fifty nine sounds bloody brilliant. I just

1087
00:54:55,207 --> 00:54:58,447
Speaker 1: need to go back to best sex of my life

1088
00:54:58,567 --> 00:55:01,807
Speaker 1: because obviously we've talked about this a bit in this

1089
00:55:01,847 --> 00:55:04,847
Speaker 1: whole conversation, but a lot of women who've talked themselves

1090
00:55:04,847 --> 00:55:06,767
Speaker 1: out of the fact that their sexual creatures once they

1091
00:55:06,847 --> 00:55:11,767
Speaker 1: hit maybe menopause or perimenopause, they sort of think, oh, well,

1092
00:55:11,847 --> 00:55:14,927
Speaker 1: that part of my life is over. Please just tell

1093
00:55:14,927 --> 00:55:17,167
Speaker 1: me a little bit more about how you can be

1094
00:55:17,207 --> 00:55:20,247
Speaker 1: having the best sex of your life our age, because

1095
00:55:20,327 --> 00:55:20,847
Speaker 1: I love that.

1096
00:55:21,127 --> 00:55:24,087
Speaker 3: Okay, So I think it is true that some women

1097
00:55:24,487 --> 00:55:29,327
Speaker 3: after menopause, the vagina finns sex becomes painful. They don't

1098
00:55:29,327 --> 00:55:31,447
Speaker 3: want to have sex. I would tell you, Holly, every

1099
00:55:31,487 --> 00:55:33,167
Speaker 3: woman I talk to who doesn't want to have sex,

1100
00:55:33,607 --> 00:55:35,127
Speaker 3: what she really is saying is she doesn't want to

1101
00:55:35,127 --> 00:55:37,327
Speaker 3: have sex with her husband anymore, and she's happy for

1102
00:55:37,327 --> 00:55:39,567
Speaker 3: an excuse to not have sex with him. There are

1103
00:55:39,647 --> 00:55:42,207
Speaker 3: things that you can do even if sex becomes painful.

1104
00:55:42,247 --> 00:55:44,807
Speaker 3: There are so many things. There are a million creams

1105
00:55:44,927 --> 00:55:48,887
Speaker 3: and suppositories and supplements you can take, and you just

1106
00:55:48,927 --> 00:55:50,927
Speaker 3: have to try until you find the one that's right.

1107
00:55:51,047 --> 00:55:54,887
Speaker 3: And I've had a lot of really hilariously embarrassingly frank

1108
00:55:55,127 --> 00:55:58,207
Speaker 3: conversations with my doctors and gynecologists, like I've had to

1109
00:55:58,407 --> 00:56:01,527
Speaker 3: put my fingers inside myself and say this is where

1110
00:56:01,607 --> 00:56:04,487
Speaker 3: it hurts, and then they say, oh, okay, well this

1111
00:56:04,607 --> 00:56:06,567
Speaker 3: is what you need. This is what you need, and

1112
00:56:06,607 --> 00:56:09,247
Speaker 3: you can have. I mean both Jake and the current

1113
00:56:09,407 --> 00:56:12,087
Speaker 3: best sex ever guy, those are people who I started

1114
00:56:12,127 --> 00:56:15,847
Speaker 3: having sex with after I turned fifty. And the other great, great,

1115
00:56:15,887 --> 00:56:19,127
Speaker 3: great lover was that guy who introduced me to lubricationless

1116
00:56:19,287 --> 00:56:24,047
Speaker 3: anal sex. Besides that, he was off the charts, adventurous,

1117
00:56:24,087 --> 00:56:27,367
Speaker 3: comfortable in his body, curious about my body. I've had

1118
00:56:27,607 --> 00:56:32,047
Speaker 3: so much incredible sex, and I'm not like a NYMPHI maniac.

1119
00:56:32,087 --> 00:56:33,687
Speaker 3: I mean, as I said earlier, I've never had a

1120
00:56:33,687 --> 00:56:37,167
Speaker 3: one night stand. I like pretty vanilla sex, but I

1121
00:56:37,287 --> 00:56:38,967
Speaker 3: like it to be really good and I like to

1122
00:56:39,007 --> 00:56:42,407
Speaker 3: have a lot of it, and I'm really really lucky,

1123
00:56:42,487 --> 00:56:45,247
Speaker 3: and I think the key to having great sex is

1124
00:56:45,887 --> 00:56:48,687
Speaker 3: to like your body, to masturbate, to figure out what

1125
00:56:48,727 --> 00:56:51,767
Speaker 3: you like, and then to be just really open with

1126
00:56:51,807 --> 00:56:55,007
Speaker 3: your partners about what you like. And that's what after

1127
00:56:55,167 --> 00:56:57,887
Speaker 3: my second marriage ended, I vowed that the first time

1128
00:56:57,927 --> 00:56:59,647
Speaker 3: I had sex with anybody else, I was going to

1129
00:56:59,687 --> 00:57:02,327
Speaker 3: tell him the top three things I like. They're very straightforward,

1130
00:57:02,367 --> 00:57:05,167
Speaker 3: they're easy to do, and I found that men really

1131
00:57:05,247 --> 00:57:07,767
Speaker 3: liked it. They want to please, they want to know

1132
00:57:07,847 --> 00:57:10,887
Speaker 3: exactly what to do. And it's not like I gave

1133
00:57:10,927 --> 00:57:13,847
Speaker 3: it tutorial, but I just gave them some tips. Everybody's

1134
00:57:13,847 --> 00:57:15,607
Speaker 3: body is different. This is what I like, yeah, and

1135
00:57:15,687 --> 00:57:17,647
Speaker 3: I'd like to know what you like. And it worked.

1136
00:57:17,967 --> 00:57:20,167
Speaker 3: One of the blessings of the Naked Truth, which is

1137
00:57:20,167 --> 00:57:22,687
Speaker 3: a lot of sex in it, is that I now

1138
00:57:22,767 --> 00:57:24,807
Speaker 3: talk to all of my girlfriends and all of my

1139
00:57:24,887 --> 00:57:27,847
Speaker 3: male friends about sex in a very candid way that

1140
00:57:27,887 --> 00:57:30,767
Speaker 3: I never did before. And it's a little bit hard

1141
00:57:30,767 --> 00:57:32,607
Speaker 3: to do depending on the culture that you were brought

1142
00:57:32,687 --> 00:57:35,447
Speaker 3: up in. But you can learn a lot by talking

1143
00:57:35,487 --> 00:57:37,647
Speaker 3: to women about what they like and what they do.

1144
00:57:37,727 --> 00:57:40,567
Speaker 3: And my male friends, I mean, I've had some great,

1145
00:57:40,727 --> 00:57:43,887
Speaker 3: great sexual conversations with my male friends. There's a lot

1146
00:57:43,967 --> 00:57:44,807
Speaker 3: to talk about.

1147
00:57:44,967 --> 00:57:47,447
Speaker 1: There is, and it's that thing of not being ashamed

1148
00:57:47,487 --> 00:57:49,687
Speaker 1: or afraid to talk about it. I know you might

1149
00:57:49,727 --> 00:57:52,007
Speaker 1: go to the doctor and say, oh, my libido's you know,

1150
00:57:52,167 --> 00:57:54,047
Speaker 1: lessening in menopause, and they'll be like, is that a

1151
00:57:54,047 --> 00:57:59,687
Speaker 1: problem for you? And you're like, am I allowed to say, yes, Yes,

1152
00:57:59,767 --> 00:58:03,047
Speaker 1: that's a problem for me. Look, this has been the

1153
00:58:03,047 --> 00:58:06,007
Speaker 1: most amazing conversation, Leslie. I can't thank you enough for

1154
00:58:06,287 --> 00:58:09,607
Speaker 1: sharing your story. Your book The Naked Truth is brilliant

1155
00:58:09,727 --> 00:58:12,007
Speaker 1: as your other books. I've seen you talk about crazy love,

1156
00:58:12,167 --> 00:58:15,567
Speaker 1: completely different topics so important. We'll put a link to

1157
00:58:15,607 --> 00:58:17,767
Speaker 1: all of that in our show notes today. But Leslie,

1158
00:58:17,807 --> 00:58:21,207
Speaker 1: my gosh, thank you for being you and telling it

1159
00:58:21,327 --> 00:58:22,127
Speaker 1: like it is. Well.

1160
00:58:22,167 --> 00:58:24,767
Speaker 3: It's a pleasure and a delight. I love being a woman.

1161
00:58:24,807 --> 00:58:26,887
Speaker 3: I feel so lucky to be a woman. I love

1162
00:58:26,927 --> 00:58:29,407
Speaker 3: being body positive and sex positive, and it's been a

1163
00:58:29,447 --> 00:58:31,807
Speaker 3: long journey to get here. Holly, I wasn't born this way.

1164
00:58:31,847 --> 00:58:34,087
Speaker 3: I had to fight to feel good about myself and

1165
00:58:34,127 --> 00:58:37,327
Speaker 3: to feel good about my flabby, saggy body and to

1166
00:58:37,607 --> 00:58:40,007
Speaker 3: enjoy life. And I think every woman deserves that, to

1167
00:58:40,047 --> 00:58:43,047
Speaker 3: be cherished, to feel like you're a sexual being and

1168
00:58:43,087 --> 00:58:45,287
Speaker 3: you can enjoy sex, and that you're really valued by

1169
00:58:45,367 --> 00:58:47,807
Speaker 3: every single person in your life who loves you. It's

1170
00:58:47,847 --> 00:58:50,047
Speaker 3: the way that it should be. And too often we

1171
00:58:50,087 --> 00:58:52,247
Speaker 3: get messages that we should settle for much less, and

1172
00:58:52,287 --> 00:58:55,087
Speaker 3: we just shouldn't. We shouldn't. Life is too wonderful to

1173
00:58:55,207 --> 00:58:55,687
Speaker 3: settle for.

1174
00:58:55,727 --> 00:59:03,167
Speaker 1: Less a men. Well, look, my life right now couldn't

1175
00:59:03,167 --> 00:59:06,887
Speaker 1: be more different from Leslie's. And yet I loved that conversation.

1176
00:59:07,527 --> 00:59:10,047
Speaker 1: Her book, The Naked Truth and her other are available

1177
00:59:10,087 --> 00:59:11,567
Speaker 1: at the link in the show notes. And I have

1178
00:59:11,647 --> 00:59:13,887
Speaker 1: to tell you The Naked Truth is really fun. It

1179
00:59:13,927 --> 00:59:17,047
Speaker 1: is written in a really accessible, fun style, and you

1180
00:59:17,127 --> 00:59:19,487
Speaker 1: might kind of love it. I know what she talks

1181
00:59:19,527 --> 00:59:23,127
Speaker 1: about is bold. It's bold that Leslie is so upfront

1182
00:59:23,167 --> 00:59:25,927
Speaker 1: about how she feels about men, both good and bad.

1183
00:59:26,327 --> 00:59:29,127
Speaker 1: I think the very specific descriptions she gives of the

1184
00:59:29,167 --> 00:59:32,327
Speaker 1: way desire dies in a long term relationship are very,

1185
00:59:32,647 --> 00:59:36,007
Speaker 1: very relatable for a lot of women in relationships with men,

1186
00:59:36,247 --> 00:59:39,247
Speaker 1: and I'd love to know if the dynamic is comparable

1187
00:59:39,287 --> 00:59:42,127
Speaker 1: in non straight relationships. I promise we'll get to that

1188
00:59:42,167 --> 00:59:45,527
Speaker 1: conversation too. I also loved what she said about money

1189
00:59:45,567 --> 00:59:48,527
Speaker 1: and financial independence, and we're also going to be talking

1190
00:59:48,567 --> 00:59:52,287
Speaker 1: about that very soon. I know it's bold that Leslie

1191
00:59:52,287 --> 00:59:54,687
Speaker 1: says the best version of midlife might just be a

1192
00:59:54,727 --> 00:59:59,087
Speaker 1: predominantly solo one, which certainly wouldn't be true or possible

1193
00:59:59,127 --> 01:00:02,247
Speaker 1: for many. And how to thrive in long term relationships

1194
01:00:02,327 --> 01:00:05,607
Speaker 1: is another discussion we're cooking up for you, But for me,

1195
01:00:06,207 --> 01:00:09,847
Speaker 1: her unapologetic insistence on what she deserves, on what all

1196
01:00:09,927 --> 01:00:13,767
Speaker 1: women deserve, was just energizing as hell. As I said

1197
01:00:13,807 --> 01:00:16,287
Speaker 1: at the beginning, sex can be attached to so much

1198
01:00:16,327 --> 01:00:20,167
Speaker 1: sadness and shame. There's something so uplifting about and refreshing

1199
01:00:20,207 --> 01:00:23,527
Speaker 1: about hearing a midlife woman just being so honest about

1200
01:00:23,527 --> 01:00:28,167
Speaker 1: what she wants and what she needs. Over the next

1201
01:00:28,207 --> 01:00:31,367
Speaker 1: seven episodes, you're going to be hearing more honest conversations,

1202
01:00:31,687 --> 01:00:34,607
Speaker 1: some with names you'll definitely know, some that won't be familiar,

1203
01:00:34,687 --> 01:00:37,967
Speaker 1: but their stories will stay with you. I promise about money,

1204
01:00:38,167 --> 01:00:41,807
Speaker 1: about the Sandwich Generation, about rage, invisibility, family, and a

1205
01:00:41,847 --> 01:00:45,047
Speaker 1: lot more, and I can't wait for you to hear them.

1206
01:00:45,447 --> 01:00:49,327
Speaker 1: Follow us, review us, raid us come back for more

1207
01:00:50,007 --> 01:00:52,487
Speaker 1: massive Thanks to you for supporting Mid and to our

1208
01:00:52,527 --> 01:00:56,127
Speaker 1: amazing team, our executive producer name of Brown and audio

1209
01:00:56,167 --> 01:01:12,087
Speaker 1: producer Tom Lyon. We'll see you next week. Thank you

1210
01:01:12,167 --> 01:01:14,487
Speaker 1: for listening to this episode of Me out Loud as look.

1211
01:01:14,527 --> 01:01:16,767
Speaker 1: I really hoped you liked it. Please tell me if

1212
01:01:16,847 --> 01:01:20,407
Speaker 1: you did. I enjoyed recording it, I enjoyed talking to Leslie,

1213
01:01:20,487 --> 01:01:23,007
Speaker 1: and I hope you really enjoyed hearing it too. If

1214
01:01:23,047 --> 01:01:26,167
Speaker 1: you're looking for even more interesting conversations this summer, once

1215
01:01:26,207 --> 01:01:28,847
Speaker 1: you've finished listening to Mamma Mia out Loud, jump over

1216
01:01:28,927 --> 01:01:31,207
Speaker 1: to MID for our special hot pod summer content that's

1217
01:01:31,207 --> 01:01:33,847
Speaker 1: happening over there will pop a link in the show notes.

1218
01:01:34,207 --> 01:01:36,447
Speaker 1: We've got loads of Mama Mia out Loud coming your

1219
01:01:36,487 --> 01:01:38,727
Speaker 1: way to so make sure you follow us in your

1220
01:01:38,767 --> 01:01:41,847
Speaker 1: favorite podcast app and you'll never miss an episode