Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mia podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on.
Speaker 2: And I thought I could carry a baby for them.
Speaker 2: He said, don't be ridiculous. Do you know how old
Speaker 2: you are? He can't do that. I said, I can.
Speaker 2: I can anyway, And I approached Michelle. I said, Michelle,
Speaker 2: I'm going to do this for you.
Speaker 1: From Mamma Maya. I'm Maya Friedman and you're listening to
Speaker 1: No Filter right now. On the south coast of New
Speaker 1: South Wales, there are two gorgeous little boys. They're around
Speaker 1: a year and a half old, and they're called Hugo
Speaker 1: and Spencer. Hugo loves washing dishes and vacuuming, and he
Speaker 1: loves birds, and he also loves feeding ducks. Spencer, meanwhile,
Speaker 1: is a bit what a Usain Bolt in the making,
Speaker 1: and he's obsessed with running, and he'll eat nothing but
Speaker 1: rice cakes if he's allowed to, and he'll always tell
Speaker 1: you if he spots a circle. It's very important. Hugo
Speaker 1: and Spencer live with their very loving parents, Michelle and Johno,
Speaker 1: and they're surrounded by a whole gaggle of extended family,
Speaker 1: including their grandmother Jasmina and their auntie Sophie. Remember their names,
Speaker 1: They're important. None of this sounds particularly remarkable, right, I
Speaker 1: know that's probably what you're thinking. But how Hugo and
Speaker 1: Spencer came to be in the world is a very
Speaker 1: unique and unusual story. You see, their grandmother Jasmina and
Speaker 1: their auntie Sophie were also actually their surrogate mothers. This
Speaker 1: is a story of loss because Michelle did try to
Speaker 1: carry her babies herself, and Hugo and Spencer have a
Speaker 1: big brother named Ralph, who you'll hear about. But it
Speaker 1: is also a story of great sacrifice and generosity, of silliness,
Speaker 1: of motherhood, of grandmotherhood. Really, this is a love story
Speaker 1: like no other I've heard before. And if you can
Speaker 1: hear the smile in my voice, it's because I am
Speaker 1: just beaming remembering how much I loved this conversation. And
Speaker 1: at the beginning of this love story, it's Michelle and
Speaker 1: her husband John O, high school friends who found each
Speaker 1: other years later, fell in love and wanted to start
Speaker 1: a family. Did you guys ever talk about having kids?
Speaker 1: Like early on, like, what are we going to call
Speaker 1: our babies? How many kids do you want?
Speaker 2: Yes. As a relationship progressed, we did talk about what
Speaker 2: we saw in our future, and kids were definitely a
Speaker 2: part of that. We always wanted like a bigger family
Speaker 2: like John, I wanted four kids. I was fine with whatever.
Speaker 2: I didn't mind. I thought we'd see how we went,
Speaker 2: and so yeah, they were definitely always a definite thing
Speaker 2: that we were doing in our life together.
Speaker 1: You'd had a clue that maybe pregnancy wasn't going to
Speaker 1: be so easy for you. What was your first hint
Speaker 1: that fertility could be a struggle.
Speaker 2: My first hint was my first period. When that came,
Speaker 2: it came along with excruciating pain. So from pretty much
Speaker 2: day dot I would be in the fetal position with
Speaker 2: the amount of pain that I had, and that was
Speaker 2: consistent up until I started taking medication that stopped my
Speaker 2: period altogether. And they were the best years of my
Speaker 2: life because I experienced no pain then because I just
Speaker 2: didn't have a period.
Speaker 1: As a doctor, I would diagnose, endo, did you have endometriosis?
Speaker 2: So it was because I was so young, they suspected
Speaker 2: it was endometriosis, but they didn't want to do a
Speaker 2: certain on me at that age, and so I just
Speaker 2: went along with it. They said it's probably endo. Just
Speaker 2: take the pill, don't take the sugar tablets, and you
Speaker 2: won't get a period, and you might not experience pain,
Speaker 2: which at the time I was like, great, that's fine.
Speaker 2: Like I didn't even think about future repercussions of that.
Speaker 2: I just thought, right now, this is stopping all my pain,
Speaker 2: so this is great. When I finally came off of them,
Speaker 2: the pain came back straight away. I would be like
Speaker 2: in bed at two am, like on all fours, rocking
Speaker 2: from side to side like I was about to give birth.
Speaker 2: I had alarms going off on my phone all the
Speaker 2: time to remind me to take painkillers.
Speaker 1: That sounds horrific, Jasmina, did you have difficult periods? Did
Speaker 1: you have any experience in dealing with this.
Speaker 3: In the beginning, I thought, why is she making such
Speaker 3: a big deal. It is a bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Drama queen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, drama queen exactly because I was a bit tough
Speaker 2: love of a mum.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I saw that she was actually sweating with the pain
Speaker 3: that she was experiencing. I thought, hang on a minute,
Speaker 3: this is not right. And then we did go to specialists.
Speaker 3: We did get ultrasounds.
Speaker 2: We got all the.
Speaker 3: Tests, and they didn't really give us any indication of
Speaker 3: what she would go through when she decided to have
Speaker 3: a family. Nobody actually envisaged that or told us or
Speaker 3: warned us about it.
Speaker 2: It was always suspected ENDO. And when I finally had
Speaker 2: an operation, they said, yeah, they confirmed it was endo.
Speaker 2: But then there was a comment made saying that, oh,
Speaker 2: your uterus is a bit small. I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: we didn't comment, Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like how did you find out that you
Speaker 1: had a unicorn uterus?
Speaker 2: It wasn't until I went to see another specialist who
Speaker 2: did another laparoscopy and said that they found this thing
Speaker 2: that comes up on ultrasounds, and people thought it was
Speaker 2: an endometrioma, so just a sack filled with blood. Always
Speaker 2: assumed it was that. Yeah, but it was actually a
Speaker 2: part of my uters that didn't quite meet the other
Speaker 2: half of it when I was forming as a fetus.
Speaker 2: So my uterus was coming together as a fetus, and
Speaker 2: this side was late to the party and kind of
Speaker 2: attached itself awkwardly. And that was trying to menstrum eight.
Speaker 2: Every time I had a period, had nowhere to go
Speaker 2: and so my body was cramping trying to get it
Speaker 2: out but it wasn't working.
Speaker 1: Wow, could you just get it removed? Yeah? I did,
Speaker 1: and that stopped the pain.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think all those years, how cranky I am
Speaker 3: that she suffered with that when it was such an
Speaker 3: easy fix. So you've got to go to the right doctor.
Speaker 1: You had started an IVF fund for yourself before you
Speaker 1: even met or No, so you must have had a
Speaker 1: clue that it was going to be difficult because of
Speaker 1: all of this, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I did. I knew that the level of pain that
Speaker 2: I was experiencing was not normal. Yeah, that I wanted
Speaker 2: to eventually have kids. I knew that IVF was expensive,
Speaker 2: and so it wasn't necessarily I was saving money for IVF.
Speaker 2: I was just saving money and I had a lot
Speaker 2: of money in a savings account and I would just
Speaker 2: refer to it as my IVF fund. I think I
Speaker 2: ended up using it to go on a holiday.
Speaker 1: But tour if that wouldn't have even.
Speaker 2: Covered the expense issue.
Speaker 1: That's so true. You eventually did use IVF when you
Speaker 1: and John I decided you were going to try and
Speaker 1: start a family. What was your IVF experience like, how
Speaker 1: did it go.
Speaker 2: My iv experience for me was quite pleasant. I didn't
Speaker 2: really experience a lot of the adverse effects of the hormones.
Speaker 2: I didn't mind injecting myself. That wasn't a big deal.
Speaker 2: Collection wasn't that painful for me. It was all you
Speaker 2: endured so much pain throughout your life that this was
Speaker 2: just a number just to blease.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you did feel pregnant. Was it your first go
Speaker 1: at IVF?
Speaker 2: No, it was my We did two rounds of IVF.
Speaker 2: First round, we made two embryos and neither of them
Speaker 2: were successful. Then the second round of IVF, the first
Speaker 2: embryo that we implanted was successful.
Speaker 1: You felt pregnant that second round, you said, And in
Speaker 1: the early stages. Did you wake up in the night
Speaker 1: and you had a big bleed? What happened?
Speaker 2: I had just finished dinner and I had got up
Speaker 2: off my chair and I just felt a gush, and
Speaker 2: I was like, that's weird. I've never felt this before.
Speaker 2: So I went to the bathroom and there was just
Speaker 2: blood everywhere, and I just continued bleeding. It was like
Speaker 2: someone turned on a tap. Did it hurt, No, it
Speaker 2: was just blood was coming out. And I assumed that
Speaker 2: this was what a miscarriage was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you went to the hospital. Yeah, did you
Speaker 1: call your mom?
Speaker 3: He rang me, he said, he's aid, there's Michelle's really bleeding.
Speaker 3: And I didn't really understand how much blood she had
Speaker 3: lost until I went there, all over the floor that
Speaker 3: attempted to wipe.
Speaker 2: Some of it off in the corner of the shower.
Speaker 3: She was quite upset, and the ambulance came and took her,
Speaker 3: and yeah, it was horrible.
Speaker 1: That must have been so scary and also sad because
Speaker 1: you thought you were losing the baby.
Speaker 2: At that point, I assumed that this was a miscarriage.
Speaker 1: So they did the ultrasound, and I assume you expected
Speaker 1: them to find nothing there.
Speaker 2: I was passing really big clots, and every time one
Speaker 2: came out, I assumed that that was our baby. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then the sonographer was just like, oh, and there's
Speaker 2: the heartbeat, and I was like, excuse me, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, little guy was holding on a fighter. What a fighter?
Speaker 1: So did that mean that the pregnancy was pretty high risk?
Speaker 1: I imagine at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So with my unicorn, you a uterus and the
Speaker 2: bleeding was very consistent, Like I bled every single day
Speaker 2: that pregnancy more than I would have a regular period.
Speaker 2: So I was bleeding quite a lot.
Speaker 1: Were you so anemic?
Speaker 2: Probably was, but that was the last thing that was
Speaker 2: last on my mind.
Speaker 1: How do you get it? Like, every time you went
Speaker 1: to the bathroom or you felt the blood coming out,
Speaker 1: you must have thought or he's gone, He's like, what's happening?
Speaker 1: How do you manage that mentally for all those weeks?
Speaker 2: I guess you kind of repress all.
Speaker 1: That'll do it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's still working full time. Yeah, from her couch.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It was in COVID, so I got to work
Speaker 2: from home. That was That was a blessing. Actually, she
Speaker 2: could just lie on the couch. Yeah, she didn't do
Speaker 2: very much. We wouldn't letter of it, but I just
Speaker 2: assumed that if it wasn't a big bleed. Yeah, every
Speaker 2: was still fine, and we were having very regular ultrasounds
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: And did your doctor tell you that you would probably
Speaker 1: carry a term, maybe not carry a term? What were
Speaker 1: they telling you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my doctor said that there are lots of
Speaker 2: women with this kind of uterus that usually will carry
Speaker 2: up until around the thirties, like m.
Speaker 1: Which is good. I mean it's still premature, but it's good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he said that he might be around thirty five
Speaker 2: thirty six weeks. Problem might be that the baby's breach
Speaker 2: because there's not much for him to turn around. Problem
Speaker 2: might be that, yeah, it might not be able to
Speaker 2: stretch as far, so it might come a bit early.
Speaker 2: But there are so many women around the world that
Speaker 2: are able to carry babies to term. Wow, yeah, it's
Speaker 2: kind of uterus.
Speaker 1: So you were trying to get to at least twenty
Speaker 1: four weeks, twenty five weeks, which is kind of viability. Yea,
Speaker 1: how far did you get?
Speaker 2: Nineteen?
Speaker 1: Then what happened?
Speaker 2: Then? I woke up, I think it was a weekend,
Speaker 2: and I went to the bathroom and there was no blood,
Speaker 2: which was pretty good, good morning. And then I just
Speaker 2: noticed that, like the TEMI the toilet paper was a
Speaker 2: little bit more wet, yeah than it usually is. And
Speaker 2: I was like, that's a bit weird. Went back into bed,
Speaker 2: laid down. I was perfectly still laying horizontally, and then
Speaker 2: just gush of water came out and I was like,
Speaker 2: my water's just broken, and so we rushed to the hospital.
Speaker 1: Jazzy, did Johnna call you?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: That night they came to our house.
Speaker 3: We had dinner, and it was getting late, and they said, look,
Speaker 3: don't drive home, just stay over. And Michelle, I remember,
Speaker 3: said to me that night. I don't know if she
Speaker 3: remembers I don't feel right. I said, oh, I've probably
Speaker 3: eaten too much, blowing on the cash. She said, I
Speaker 3: just don't feel right. And yeah, Johnna, I said, look,
Speaker 3: I think Michelle's waters have broken.
Speaker 2: So we rushed to the hospital. I went with them,
Speaker 2: and yeah.
Speaker 1: When you were driving there, I'm sorry this tell me
Speaker 1: if this is all too upsetting, But when you were
Speaker 1: driving there, did you think there was a chance or
Speaker 1: did you know it's nineteen weeks, this isn't going to
Speaker 1: end well.
Speaker 2: I think in the moment, you're just trying to deal
Speaker 2: with the situation at hand that I wasn't necessarily thinking
Speaker 2: at part of the future. I still I didn't know
Speaker 2: if this was something we could come back from. I
Speaker 2: didn't know what was really happening, and so I was
Speaker 2: just yeah, in this limbo.
Speaker 3: Didn't the ultrasound person when they altra sounded you and
Speaker 3: they found that the baby's heartbeat was still beating, I
Speaker 3: think he said to you, or she said to you.
Speaker 3: Sometimes the amnuonic fluid builds back up, so there was hope.
Speaker 3: There was still hope.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it reseals and it fell back up. Oh okay,
Speaker 2: well that's going to happen this time.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it doesn't reseal, but it builds up and then
Speaker 2: it's still enough for the baby to practice swallowing and breathing.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that wasn't our case.
Speaker 1: You had to give birth to little baby Ralph. I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry he was born having already passed away. And
Speaker 1: this is going to sound so strange, but I lost
Speaker 1: a baby at that same point, at eighteen or nineteen weeks.
Speaker 1: And when I watched your story on Australian Story, and
Speaker 1: I watched the time that you got to spend with
Speaker 1: baby Ralph in the hospital room, I was so jealous
Speaker 1: because I didn't get that and I couldn't. I was
Speaker 1: given the choice to give birth and I felt that
Speaker 1: I couldn't, and so I had an operation and when
Speaker 1: I woke up, that baby was gone and there were
Speaker 1: no remains that that they were able to give me
Speaker 1: because of what happened, you know, when they're extracting her.
Speaker 1: And it's so funny because it was such a tragic thing.
Speaker 1: Those images of you in the hospital and yet what
Speaker 1: a gift that was to get to spend two days
Speaker 1: with your baby. Is that how you see it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was giving birth, I had always dreamed
Speaker 2: about giving birth vaginally naturally. I thought I had experienced
Speaker 2: so much pain with my periods that I used to
Speaker 2: joke I was like, child, that's going to be easy
Speaker 2: to dream.
Speaker 1: Like I'll phone it in. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was so grateful that I was able to give
Speaker 2: birth that even though it wasn't going to be, you know,
Speaker 2: a nice outcome in the end, I was so grateful
Speaker 2: that I got to experience it. I was so grateful
Speaker 2: that a few days before my water broke, I could
Speaker 2: feel him start to move a little bit. I was
Speaker 2: so grateful for all of that. Like a memory that
Speaker 2: sticks with me is when he finally came all the
Speaker 2: way down, Like I could feel everything, and I just
Speaker 2: thought that was amazing, Like I never thought that you
Speaker 2: could feel all of that. It was incredible. And the
Speaker 2: way that hospitals now treat a stillbirth is so amazing.
Speaker 2: There are a volunteer group of photographers that came and
Speaker 2: took photos of us as a family, which was amazing.
Speaker 2: The social workers that come in home chat to you
Speaker 2: all the time. We had a cool crib so Ralph
Speaker 2: could stay next to us, we could have him.
Speaker 1: Had a little beanie.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, like the old grandma's and it the beanies.
Speaker 1: Wow, tiny little beanies like thimbles.
Speaker 2: It is amazing and I'm I'm so grateful that we
Speaker 2: got to spend that time. Before I gave birth. I
Speaker 2: didn't know if I wanted to. I was just like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if I want I don't know if
Speaker 2: I want him in a cool crib. I don't know
Speaker 2: how I'm going to feel about this. But when he
Speaker 2: was here, I was like, no, I do want this.
Speaker 2: This is really nice.
Speaker 1: After this break, what made Jasmina decide that she would
Speaker 1: do whatever it took not to see her daughter Michelle
Speaker 1: in so much grief and so much physical danger. Ever again,
Speaker 1: before you got to be with him, you started hemorrhaging
Speaker 1: in a big way.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you have any memories of that?
Speaker 2: Vivid memories. I remember everything. I remember the name of
Speaker 2: the anethetist as I was wheeled into surgery.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think with such like a traumatic event, my brain
Speaker 2: just absorbed everything. It was just on. I was delivering
Speaker 2: the placenta, I was holding Ralph, and the placenta was
Speaker 2: coming out in like little bits. It was a bit funny,
Speaker 2: and my doctor was like, oh, this is a bit weird.
Speaker 2: It might just be because you delivered so early that
Speaker 2: the placenter's whatever. And then she was like, just give
Speaker 2: me a couple of pushes, and so I was pushing.
Speaker 2: Everything was fine, and then all of a sudden, it
Speaker 2: was like a horror film in like the fifties where
Speaker 2: things blood was squirting out. My poor husband was sitting
Speaker 2: there just watching it. I was I could feel things happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what did it feel like from the inside.
Speaker 2: I first felt like one of the big gushes of
Speaker 2: blood that I had previously, just a gush of blood
Speaker 2: that I'm assuming like lots of women have when they
Speaker 2: have a flooding event, assuming it's the same as that.
Speaker 2: It was just a big gush. And then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, the doctor was like, okay, I'm going to
Speaker 2: call things. I had a midwife next to me that
Speaker 2: started pumping my stomach. The other midwife was trying to
Speaker 2: detangle me from all the cords and disconnect me so
Speaker 2: they could wheel me away, and my doctor was like,
Speaker 2: we're just going to take you into theater. You're bleeding
Speaker 2: a little bit. We're just going to do something to
Speaker 2: stop it. And they were all so calm. It was
Speaker 2: just like, oh, okay, yep, that's fine. Meanwhile, John I
Speaker 2: was standing next to me. He was like he just said,
Speaker 2: He was like, there was so much blood. You got
Speaker 2: it on the walls. It was all over the doctor.
Speaker 1: That part, and he was holding Ralph.
Speaker 2: And then yeah, we passed him Ralph. They wheeled me away.
Speaker 2: So poor John I was left in a room by himself,
Speaker 2: holding his child that had passed away, with his wife's
Speaker 2: blood all over the room and potentially could pass away
Speaker 2: as well. Yeahs away from the well, I asked. I
Speaker 2: was asking the midwife as well, being wheeled down. I
Speaker 2: was like, do people pass away from this? And she
Speaker 2: looked at me and she was like no, no, no,
Speaker 2: And it was only afterwards that she was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: people came past away from memory ging. I just didn't
Speaker 2: want to tell you that at the time.
Speaker 3: Did you also say to that because you told me
Speaker 3: you said you asked her, am I going to die today?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I said, I was like, am I going to
Speaker 2: die from this? Do people die from this? And she
Speaker 2: was like no, no, no, you'll be fine.
Speaker 1: Imagine if she said, well sometimes she did come.
Speaker 2: Her. Yeah. It was only afterward that she said that
Speaker 2: she believes that people are aware of their bodies. And
Speaker 2: when I said that, she was like, oh gosh, does she.
Speaker 1: Know where were you? Jazzy?
Speaker 3: It was bloody covid, Oh my gosh, telephone not knowing
Speaker 3: whether and John I was trying to pay it down,
Speaker 3: but I.
Speaker 2: Could hear in his voice that he was panicked. He said, look,
Speaker 2: we've had a son. He didn't make it, and she'll
Speaker 2: just had to go to theater. Said what what theater?
Speaker 2: Does she have a cesarean? No?
Speaker 3: No, and she said, oh there was a bit of
Speaker 3: blood and they have to stop her. And it was
Speaker 3: only afterwards that they told me the extent of it,
Speaker 3: especially because she was in I see you for a
Speaker 3: couple of days, just.
Speaker 1: A day that was a day long, just one day,
Speaker 1: just one day, and I see you nearly dying.
Speaker 2: Just that's Michelle all over me everything.
Speaker 1: Just one short day.
Speaker 2: It was very, very scary, very jause.
Speaker 1: You must have been like an animal, like wanting to
Speaker 1: get to your what.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to be that person that was always
Speaker 3: in their face, but I wanted to know is my daughter.
Speaker 2: Okay, it was horrible, horrible. It was the worst time ever.
Speaker 1: I don't want I can't even imagine. And then when
Speaker 1: you came out what you endured, which was beautiful but
Speaker 1: also heartbreaking because no one wants a pregnancy to end
Speaker 1: that way. You go home, you leave Ralph. That must
Speaker 1: have been incredibly tough doing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really hard. I wanted to take him home. Yeah,
Speaker 2: also knew that I couldn't.
Speaker 3: Well, John rang me, and you said, Jesse, you've got
Speaker 3: to ring Michelle and tell her. She doesn't want to
Speaker 3: let Ralph go. She won't let them take him. And
Speaker 3: I said, oh goodness.
Speaker 2: I said, have you told He said, I have, but
Speaker 2: you need to tell her. And I rang her. I said, miss,
Speaker 2: you've got to do this.
Speaker 3: You can't, you can't, I said, you just it's hard,
Speaker 3: but you have to let him go.
Speaker 2: And that was one of the hardest things. And she said,
Speaker 2: black heart, Mom, I don't want to let him go
Speaker 2: because I'll never see him again. Yeah. So yeah, it
Speaker 2: was really hard. Yeah, but I'm so grateful for all
Speaker 2: the photos that we got with him and all the
Speaker 2: days that we got to spend with him.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's like proof of him. Yeah, he was real.
Speaker 1: He was your boy. He made her a mom, He
Speaker 1: made you a mom.
Speaker 2: She got to experience pregnancy and birth.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, when did they tell you, hey, we're
Speaker 1: not going to be doing that again.
Speaker 2: It was when I went to a follow up appointment
Speaker 2: after everything settled down. My obstraitrician just looked at me
Speaker 2: and said, I don't think you should try that again.
Speaker 2: And I was like, why not? Why can't I? And
Speaker 2: she was just like, there's too many variables at play here.
Speaker 2: We don't know why you bled the whole time. We
Speaker 2: don't know why your water broke so early, we don't
Speaker 2: know why you hemorrhaged afterwards. There's too many things that
Speaker 2: are either going to cause more trauma to yourself or
Speaker 2: potentially negative health effects. You might not make it next time. Dramatic,
Speaker 2: I'm not dramatic. And this is the truth.
Speaker 1: Well, it is true, it's actually true. Listen to your mother,
Speaker 1: Michelle and your doctors. They're right, it's too risky.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I knew Michelle May. I knew that she
Speaker 3: would not take no for an answer. Yeah, that would
Speaker 3: do it. And my husband and I spoke about it.
Speaker 3: We thought, there is no way Michelle's going to go.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I can't go again. I won't be your mum.
Speaker 1: So you were worried that she was going to do
Speaker 1: it again and risk.
Speaker 3: Her life one hundred percent. My husband and I was
Speaker 3: speaking to each other. I said, Druggy, Michelle's not going
Speaker 3: to take no for a nance. He said, but you
Speaker 3: know she's been told. And my husband had no idea
Speaker 3: about Sarregussie at this stage. But I had heard about
Speaker 3: it years and years previously, and I thought I could
Speaker 3: carry I could carry a baby for them.
Speaker 2: He said, don't be ridiculous. Do you know how old
Speaker 2: you are. You can't do that. I said, I can,
Speaker 2: I can, and I researched it. I girgled it. I
Speaker 2: shady articles. There's not very much out there, especially in
Speaker 2: Australia anyway, and I approached Michelle. I said, Michelle, I'm
Speaker 2: going to do this for you. She said, are you sure, mum? Anyway,
Speaker 2: I don't know how Michelle felt about it, but I was.
Speaker 2: I was adamant I was going to do it. I've got.
Speaker 1: Where were you? How did that conversation happen? Just like
Speaker 1: over a cup of tea or it was.
Speaker 2: It was like a running joke that we had even
Speaker 2: before all this happened, because I knew that, like the
Speaker 2: pain that I was experienced was a lot. I knew
Speaker 2: that I had half a uterus. I knew all of this,
Speaker 2: and Mom was like, I'll just do it for you
Speaker 2: if you can't haha. Like it was always a running joke.
Speaker 2: My husband had never paid attention to any of this stuff,
Speaker 2: and it was I don't I don't even remember it,
Speaker 2: do you know, I don't remember it. It was just like,
Speaker 2: I will do it for you. And I kept saying,
Speaker 2: my period, I'm still in a period. It's still happening.
Speaker 2: I can still do.
Speaker 1: Caught a lord above. At fifty two, you had a period, Chelsey,
Speaker 1: look at you? Possible?
Speaker 2: But I did and I kept every month. Yes, it's still.
Speaker 1: Did you need to have a period to be a surrogain?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know, but they want you to.
Speaker 2: There is a cutoff. There is definitely age cut off.
Speaker 2: So by fifty two, which was me wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we had to move quickly and we haven't
Speaker 1: talked about Sophie yet. John O's sister, your sister in law,
Speaker 1: was that like at the same family dinner that she said, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll do that also, like what happens in your house?
Speaker 2: Yeah, again, I think it was Sophie. It was always
Speaker 2: just something that she also said. She was like, if
Speaker 2: you can't do it, I to do it for you.
Speaker 2: And then I think we went to her house afterwards
Speaker 2: and she just said to me, I'm serious, I will
Speaker 2: do it, like if you want me to.
Speaker 1: So my question is, Sophie had three children, Jazzi, you
Speaker 1: had Michelle and one other child. When you each found
Speaker 1: out that the other was going to do it or
Speaker 1: was willing to do it, didn't one of you go, oh,
Speaker 1: well you're sorted. I don't I won't do it too,
Speaker 1: let's just choose one.
Speaker 3: That was never an option for me. I was always
Speaker 3: going to try and help her out that way. I
Speaker 3: knew that she wanted to have well, I thought it
Speaker 3: would be nice for her to have more than one child.
Speaker 3: And it was a bitch asking Sophie.
Speaker 2: To do it. Twice.
Speaker 3: I thought, you know what, I'll put my hand up,
Speaker 3: I'll go one go, and Sophie was going to go
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 2: So there was her family.
Speaker 1: Did you already have the embryos from your previous rounds
Speaker 1: of IVF, so they were ready to go.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the second round of IVF, we got a
Speaker 2: lot of embryos and so they were already they're ready
Speaker 2: to go, so we didn't have to go through that
Speaker 2: process again.
Speaker 1: What are the laws around surrogacy? You can't pay someone
Speaker 1: to carry a baby, but someone can do it altruistically, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: The laws around surrogacy are that you need to complete counseling.
Speaker 2: There needs to be a legal agreement. The surrogate cannot
Speaker 2: be financially disadvantaged. In the agreement, you're also not allowed
Speaker 2: to pay them on top, so you're supposed to cover
Speaker 2: like medical costs all those peace. Yeah, if they have
Speaker 2: to take time off work, then you would pay for
Speaker 2: that time that they took off.
Speaker 1: Did you have to do two sets of counseling or
Speaker 1: could you all just like kill two birds with one
Speaker 1: stone and just all just going together?
Speaker 2: So we did. Myself and John are mum and dad.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I didn't understand why he needed.
Speaker 1: To be like what do I got to do with this?
Speaker 1: Why do I need to be here?
Speaker 3: You know how well he is about feelings, Like yeah, fine,
Speaker 3: you know, how does this affect you?
Speaker 2: And it's fine.
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about my daughter's vagina and
Speaker 1: all my wife's in a room. I don't want that.
Speaker 2: So myself and John I had to do it. Mom
Speaker 2: and dad had to do it. We had to do
Speaker 2: it Tokay and Sophie and her husband had to do it.
Speaker 2: Then we had to do it together. Then we had
Speaker 2: to get all three couples together and do one big,
Speaker 2: happy family just in case.
Speaker 1: I don't know, what kinds of things did you talk
Speaker 1: about in the counseling, What do they want to know?
Speaker 3: How are we going to feel when the baby was
Speaker 3: born and having to hand it over, and how are
Speaker 3: we going to cope with the mental load.
Speaker 2: Of it all? But it was also it was also
Speaker 2: just seeing if you're a sane person to begin with.
Speaker 1: Because I was going to say, how can you answer
Speaker 1: that when you haven't done it? You don't know.
Speaker 2: But also it was a lot of questions on are
Speaker 2: they in a good mental state to be able to
Speaker 2: carry our pregnancy right? Yeah?
Speaker 3: And finding people that specialize in this was hard because
Speaker 3: you can just.
Speaker 2: Get a someone that does law for like.
Speaker 3: You know, when you buy a house or conveyance. It
Speaker 3: had to be a specialist in that field, and that
Speaker 3: was hard.
Speaker 2: We had counselors and lawyers from all over the country.
Speaker 1: So why did you need lawyers? Because of when the
Speaker 1: baby was born? Genetically it was Michelle and John O's,
Speaker 1: but it came out of the body of Jazzy and Sophie.
Speaker 1: So what does the law have to do. Did you
Speaker 1: have to adopt your own biological children?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: Much so.
Speaker 2: The legal agreement that we had to do as a
Speaker 2: part of the surrogacy process was based purely on finances,
Speaker 2: so that legally, if someone was out of pocket, we
Speaker 2: would have to make sure that they weren't. That was
Speaker 2: the extent of the legal agreement. There was no line
Speaker 2: in that that said just mean I must hand over Chase.
Speaker 1: Men, I can't run off with the baby.
Speaker 2: Children was stimulated in the legal agreement, right, so she
Speaker 2: could have taken the baby and there would have been
Speaker 2: no legal documents saying that that was not a bad thing.
Speaker 1: Who's on the birth certificate?
Speaker 2: Mum and Dad are on Hugo's birth certificate and Sophie
Speaker 2: and her husband Hilarious Spencer's, And so then I had
Speaker 2: to fill out hours and hours of paperwork. Two new
Speaker 2: they were born to have the birth certificate changed.
Speaker 1: That seems outrageous that your husband, Jazzy and Sophie's husband,
Speaker 1: he really didn't even want to go to the counseling appointments.
Speaker 2: Frankly austrange situation. Definitely.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 2: I thought it was weird that there had to be
Speaker 2: a second parent on it. Yes, what's my husband with?
Speaker 1: Literally nothing?
Speaker 2: But I also understand why my dad's name was on it,
Speaker 2: because if the situation was reversed and you had an
Speaker 2: embryo that had been donated to you grown a baby,
Speaker 2: deliminate than fair. I understand why the wall.
Speaker 1: Yeah that way, So Jasi, what was pregnancy like the
Speaker 1: third time around at age fifty two?
Speaker 3: Well, I was pretty impressed that when the transfer happened,
Speaker 3: Michelle said, Mom, you're going to get three goes. I
Speaker 3: don't have an endless supply of embryos. Oh, no pressure.
Speaker 3: Three goes and that's it. You know, I'm going to
Speaker 3: hand Sofia. Then she's younger and it'll probably you know,
Speaker 3: work for her better than you, And I thought, oh gosh,
Speaker 3: no pressure.
Speaker 2: So anyway, Hugo was implanted. I drive home, my husband
Speaker 2: drive me home.
Speaker 3: I had my feet on the dashboard because I didn't
Speaker 3: want to risk anything.
Speaker 2: I'm sitting and I lay down. I wanted to fall out.
Speaker 2: I didn't want it to fall out. I laid down on.
Speaker 3: That couch Mia for three days. I did not move
Speaker 3: my legs up on the thing, and.
Speaker 1: Anyway it worked.
Speaker 2: I did wacked.
Speaker 3: Anyway, we went to the ultra sad and there's a
Speaker 3: little heartbeat off.
Speaker 2: Oh did it first?
Speaker 4: Guy?
Speaker 2: Michelle? Ha But pregnancy when mum was pregnant the first time,
Speaker 2: you were twenty one and twenty I was. I was
Speaker 2: a twenty one year old.
Speaker 3: And a twenty four with my pregnancies, and I'd sort
Speaker 3: of forgotten and I had easy pregnancies.
Speaker 2: I didn't have any morning sickness. I worked pretty much
Speaker 2: to the end.
Speaker 3: When I carried Michelle and then with Hugo, I was
Speaker 3: so psyching myself up.
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, this is not going to be
Speaker 2: as easy. I'm an old woman.
Speaker 3: But it wasn't as bad as I had psyched myself up.
Speaker 3: It was relatively easy. I felt very healthy. I think
Speaker 3: I only threw up once in the beginning. I felt
Speaker 3: a bit sea sick, definitely, but that was quite comforting
Speaker 3: because I thought, well, if I am feeling sick, then
Speaker 3: it's still happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about you, Perry, were you like perimenopausal and
Speaker 1: pregnant at the same time.
Speaker 3: I commend women our carry their grandchildren as a surrogate.
Speaker 2: I was a rainy year old. My frozen shoulder.
Speaker 3: Deep frosted itself. My hip was very sore before that
Speaker 3: wasn't sore. I had beautiful, luscious hair.
Speaker 2: I hate. My skin was beautiful. I had all the hormones.
Speaker 2: I had all the estrogen.
Speaker 1: It's a different type of HRT.
Speaker 2: I guess it's a great hard it's a natural hate.
Speaker 3: I felt great, honestly I did, apart from having gestational diabetes, yeah,
Speaker 3: which they expected I would get. And that was a
Speaker 3: good thing because I put on thirty kilos when I
Speaker 3: carried Michelle. I put on ten kiloes when I carried
Speaker 3: Hugo because I was on a very strict diet.
Speaker 1: How did you feel different in your pregnancy and like
Speaker 1: how you felt towards the baby.
Speaker 3: I felt like babysitting for nine months, like you don't
Speaker 3: want this child anything to happen. I stopped putting retinoile
Speaker 3: on my face because you know, I'm not from pregnant women.
Speaker 3: I was careful with what I ate because I thought,
Speaker 3: oh no, that's too much sugar. And I definitely didn't
Speaker 3: drink alcohol, obviously, but I was on edge. I didn't
Speaker 3: hang out the washing. My husband would, and he was
Speaker 3: as just as protective as me.
Speaker 2: They're on hire alert the whole entire time. It's like
Speaker 2: baby sitting on steroids.
Speaker 3: It was Hugo had turned unbeknownst to me, and he
Speaker 3: didn't kick for about a day and a half and.
Speaker 2: I was getting more and more worried.
Speaker 3: And I was sitting next to my boss and she said,
Speaker 3: just go to the hospital. I said, I don't want
Speaker 3: to bother them. She said, just just go. And I
Speaker 3: didn't tell Michelle and John I because I didn't want
Speaker 3: to make them nervous and scared. I went in and
Speaker 3: they said, oh no, he's still you know, got a heartbeat,
Speaker 3: it's still kicking.
Speaker 2: He just turned. He had his back to me, and
Speaker 2: that was like.
Speaker 3: But until I got it checked out, I was just
Speaker 3: a nervous wreck, thinking, oh gosh, I hope everything's okay.
Speaker 3: And I perk my stomach and still nothing that I
Speaker 3: could feel.
Speaker 1: It was all the responsibility must have been really hectic. Yes, Michelle,
Speaker 1: How did it feel for you in terms of I
Speaker 1: imagine were you jealous a little bit? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I was. It's amazing how many emotions you can feel
Speaker 2: that contradict each other at the same time. So I
Speaker 2: was first and foremost so grateful that two women were
Speaker 2: putting their bodies through this or my benefit. I was
Speaker 2: so grateful that we're able to do this. But then
Speaker 2: every time I would visit or i'd be just sitting
Speaker 2: on the couch with JOHNO, I would just have this
Speaker 2: longing but I wish it was me, even though logically
Speaker 2: I know it can't be me. I cannot do this.
Speaker 2: I just was annoyed that it wasn't me. It wasn't
Speaker 2: necessarily like jealousy of them. It was just I wish
Speaker 2: I could do it myself.
Speaker 1: It must have been also quite exhausting to be that grateful.
Speaker 1: Was it like thank you no, but thank you no,
Speaker 1: but thank you so much. But I can't tell you
Speaker 1: how much I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: I don't think over barring them like much to dinner. No,
Speaker 2: she would.
Speaker 3: She would go over Sophie's house and help you put
Speaker 3: the kids, especially in the later stages of state.
Speaker 2: We were Yeah, a lot more helpful for Sophie.
Speaker 3: But I said to Michelle, I said, I'm fine, you
Speaker 3: don't need to do anything with me on fine.
Speaker 1: How old was Sophie's other kids so.
Speaker 2: Small at the time, I can't remember six, five and four?
Speaker 1: Oh wow, wow, yeah, And what did she tell them?
Speaker 1: I mean, not that they would really care or be
Speaker 1: that interested.
Speaker 2: The best thing about little kids is that you tell
Speaker 2: them something and they're.
Speaker 1: Just like, oh, they just accept you. It's excellent.
Speaker 2: It's just like, oh, mum's gonna grow Uncle John O
Speaker 2: and Ernie Misha's baby, and they were all like, okay, cool.
Speaker 2: They would call they would call her bumper, that's our cousin.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah.
Speaker 1: Did you have to have some awkward conversations when it
Speaker 1: was like, oh, you're pregnant, huh, you know you're old?
Speaker 1: Or who's bait? Yeah, and then you had to go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's my daughter and her Husbut like, that's not a
Speaker 1: conversation that's easy to have at the supermarket with a stranger.
Speaker 2: Well, in the beginning, Michelle wasn't ready to tell anybody.
Speaker 3: And we've got a group of friends that we always
Speaker 3: go out with and lucky it was winter ish. So
Speaker 3: I'd rock up with these scarves and these big coats
Speaker 3: and I'd say, Michell, we have to tell.
Speaker 2: She said, no, you don't even know. I'm not ready
Speaker 2: yet because I don't know for whatever reason she wasn't
Speaker 2: ready to tell.
Speaker 1: Why weren't you, Michelle? I want to ask you about that.
Speaker 2: I was petrified that it wasn't going to work. Like
Speaker 2: we hadn't made it till the nineteen week mark. We
Speaker 2: hadn't read it till twenty four.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're protecting yourself some protection mechanism. I get it.
Speaker 1: I get it.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: I was pretty huge, and I was just waiting for
Speaker 3: one of my friends to say something, and I didn't
Speaker 3: know how I was going to explain it away. So
Speaker 3: I'd be sitting there, sweating in the scarfs and jackets and.
Speaker 2: They don't it's hot. Why can't you take no? No,
Speaker 2: I feel cold?
Speaker 3: I feel cold maywhile they were looking at me and going, oh,
Speaker 3: menopause is not treating that woman right at it. He's
Speaker 3: got hot blushes, she's got a big.
Speaker 1: Gut weight gain, look at her.
Speaker 2: Wait game. Yeah it was dad. So one day they
Speaker 2: decided to tell their friends because Michelle said okay, you
Speaker 2: can tell them now. I wasn't there. No, no, you
Speaker 2: weren't there.
Speaker 1: What happened when you told your friends? We were sitting at.
Speaker 3: Dinner and druggons. My husband said, look, everyone, I need
Speaker 3: your attention. And then they go, well, we're having a baby.
Speaker 3: Jesse's having a baby. She's pregnant. They went what like
Speaker 3: it was like a disgust, almost like what what's wrong
Speaker 3: with you?
Speaker 1: You old people doing?
Speaker 2: Eh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty much that and then here goes but it's
Speaker 3: not my baby, and then they went, oh.
Speaker 2: You.
Speaker 1: That's so funny. He sounds excellent.
Speaker 3: So yeah, we told them, but a vivid memory that
Speaker 3: I have. We had to go through the hospital, through
Speaker 3: the specialists there, and Michelle couldn't get out of work
Speaker 3: that day, so it was just JOHNO when I went
Speaker 3: and I said, You're like, can we hold hands when
Speaker 3: we go in?
Speaker 1: Are you're such a trial? I love it?
Speaker 2: There were people looking at what are you doing with her?
Speaker 2: Like she's old?
Speaker 3: Even when I went shopping, people would look at me up.
Speaker 3: I could see they do a double take, the calculations
Speaker 3: like you look too old.
Speaker 1: Yes, Jonathan could have just gone, oh, don't worry, it's
Speaker 1: just my mother in law.
Speaker 2: Pretty much. Yeah, you wouldn't have been lying either.
Speaker 1: After this break, are you ready for it? Jasmina goes
Speaker 1: into labor and it's a very funny the two different
Speaker 1: births because you know, Sophie got pregnant the first goal
Speaker 1: of IVF as well, which you weren't expecting. So there
Speaker 1: was seven weeks between you, right between your delivery dates.
Speaker 1: You had Hugo first and you had him by C section.
Speaker 1: What was your experience of the birth, Mish? What was
Speaker 1: that like for you?
Speaker 2: I was petrified. I was so nervous, like just hoping
Speaker 2: that everything would turn out okay. I was scared for
Speaker 2: mum having you know, major abdominal surgery. I was, you know,
Speaker 2: very hopeful that the baby would come out alive. And
Speaker 2: so there's videos of me just like pacing up and
Speaker 2: down the corridor and jumping and doing dancers, just being
Speaker 2: like okay, I'm ready, I'm ready, Like come on. I
Speaker 2: was very nervous and I don't really experience intense emotions
Speaker 2: like that, and like, I was very nervous.
Speaker 1: How did you both feel when the baby came out?
Speaker 1: What was that Like?
Speaker 2: It is so real and I think it is for
Speaker 2: so many people. Just as soon as they're here, you're
Speaker 2: kind of like, you're here. Oh my goodness, there's a
Speaker 2: person in that stomach, and now you're mine. Like I
Speaker 2: had shocked, I was relieved that he was well. There
Speaker 2: was just so much joy. I was like, I was like,
Speaker 2: you're finally here. This is real. I cannot believe it.
Speaker 2: It was a really nice moment.
Speaker 1: Jesse, how did you feel towards the baby? And I
Speaker 1: think I know what you're going to say. Compared to
Speaker 1: when you met your own children for the first time.
Speaker 3: I felt like a grandmother. I never felt like he
Speaker 3: was mine, not even for a second. And I was
Speaker 3: so honored and proud that I could do this. I
Speaker 3: was healthy enough because there's apart from the psychological testing
Speaker 3: and factors, you have to be physically healthy because the
Speaker 3: doctors aren't going to risk your health and life by
Speaker 3: making you go through this. It was such an honor
Speaker 3: and privilege in just watching them, the joy and the
Speaker 3: tears of happiness, and you know, holding Hugo was just
Speaker 3: the best thing and I'll never never forget that, and
Speaker 3: I was so lucky to be part of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of mums try and weasel their way
Speaker 2: into the delivery room and someone took it.
Speaker 1: Now, it's funny you say that I tried, Well, this
Speaker 1: is what you have to do.
Speaker 2: What you've got to do.
Speaker 1: I didn't think of offering to actually carry the baby.
Speaker 1: That will be my plan for grandchild number two.
Speaker 2: You do that.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, Mish. I've watched some of the footage of
Speaker 1: you for the birth of Hugo and then for the
Speaker 1: birth the Spencer five weeks later, and Sophie, your sister
Speaker 1: in law, gave birth vaginally, and you were there with
Speaker 1: John O. That was very funny to watch because he
Speaker 1: was actually, that's his sister's vagina down there that his
Speaker 1: son's coming out of. And he tries trying not to
Speaker 1: look at one point, so cool, And what did Sophie
Speaker 1: say when he was trying not to look.
Speaker 2: Sophie was just like, we've come this far. Just it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter anymore.
Speaker 4: John, So I sort of do this awkward shuffle and
Speaker 4: back in and then sort of cut the cord over here.
Speaker 4: And by that stage, Sophie is there just yelling at
Speaker 4: me saying I don't.
Speaker 2: Care, and Johnnah was still like, nah, I can't.
Speaker 1: Do it, I can't. He looks very funny that. But
Speaker 1: what I noticed most was the difference in you and
Speaker 1: when you were watching Hugo be born versus when you're
Speaker 1: watching Spencer be born. And I know that one was
Speaker 1: an operating room setting and it was surgery and it
Speaker 1: was different, but you almost seem very understandably a little
Speaker 1: bit blank is the wrong word, but detached, like you're
Speaker 1: still protecting yourself, like you still can't quite believe it
Speaker 1: with Hugo the first time, but with Spencer, your whole
Speaker 1: face is cracked open.
Speaker 2: I think the experience before Hugo, yes, with such a
Speaker 2: traumatic bad Yeah, that that's the only thing I have
Speaker 2: to go by, and so I'm just trying to be
Speaker 2: cautious but still be excited. And then when Hugo arrived,
Speaker 2: it was disbelief that this is finally real.
Speaker 1: I could see that on your face because also the
Speaker 1: last time you were in an operating theater you were
Speaker 1: bleeding out. Yeah, so that must have been incredibly overwhelming
Speaker 1: and traumatic and triggering and all of the things and beautiful.
Speaker 2: And I didn't focus on any of that though. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the day he was born, I didn't think about any
Speaker 2: of that past trauma. I just thought I'm so excited
Speaker 2: to meet him. I really hope it goes well. I
Speaker 2: didn't even think, oh is this the theater that I
Speaker 2: bled out in? Like, I didn't even think about any
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: Did you feel a bit like Ralph was in the
Speaker 1: room somewhere?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I always think that, you know, he's around
Speaker 2: watching his brothers.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I like let myself think, oh, he'd be three now,
Speaker 2: like the boys. Imagine having a toddler and twins or whatever.
Speaker 2: That would be insane.
Speaker 1: It's like a little ghost baby. He'll always be there.
Speaker 1: He'll always be a little ghost baby. I still think
Speaker 1: my daughter would be like twenty five, and I still
Speaker 1: think about that sometimes. What you know, it's comforting though now,
Speaker 1: Like it's not for me. It's not a deep sadness,
Speaker 1: Like I like thinking of what she would maybe be like, you.
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, like I make a cake for his birthday
Speaker 2: every year.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Yeah yeah. Two babies at home twins essentially
Speaker 1: like what five weeks apart? Yeah yeah, when you're out
Speaker 1: with two babies, do you just say they're twins? I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a long story.
Speaker 2: Otherwise, I don't want to trauma dump on other people. Well, actually,
Speaker 2: if they're not, and this is my story.
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, I've just been polite.
Speaker 2: They're twins to everyone. Yeah, even yeah. The only time
Speaker 2: I ever tell the story is the pharmacists. The other
Speaker 2: day I had to pick up medication for them both,
Speaker 2: and he was just like, their scripts have different birthdays,
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 1: Very observant.
Speaker 3: Pharmacists put their names down for childcare, and the childcare
Speaker 3: person rang them and said, look, you probably tired and
Speaker 3: haven't slept much.
Speaker 2: Given the wrong days.
Speaker 1: They seem to be born in different years. How's that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Everyone on the street, oh twins.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, December and January twenty two and twenty two
Speaker 1: so different.
Speaker 3: There was Hugo oh yeah, a big, big baby, and
Speaker 3: there was Spencer, this tiny little newborn, and they go, twins.
Speaker 2: Did you go, yeah, can look the same? They didn't say,
Speaker 2: now are they identical? Do they look identical?
Speaker 1: No? A lot of.
Speaker 2: People struggle with the idea of that there are fraternal
Speaker 2: twins that exist, and twins come walk different.
Speaker 1: So many even though they're not twins.
Speaker 2: I still think it's interesting that people don't.
Speaker 1: Ny and the boys, what stories do you tell them?
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys have no secrets. You're talking to me.
Speaker 1: It's not like it's like, oh, don't mention it.
Speaker 2: They're still quite young, so they don't really understand anything
Speaker 2: or care.
Speaker 1: Really.
Speaker 2: There's a photo of Ralph in their nursery and I
Speaker 2: point to him and I'm like, that's your brother. Have
Speaker 2: a picture on our TV screen. That's a photo of me, John,
Speaker 2: my mum and Sophie while they were both pregnant, and
Speaker 2: I just point to the tummies and I'm like, that's
Speaker 2: you in there. That's like you and those tummies. And
Speaker 2: so hopefully they'll always just know and then when it
Speaker 2: comes to explaining why that happened, it won't be a
Speaker 2: shock later on in their life.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about you guys, and I was just
Speaker 1: thinking about you know, when you sat down and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's not even a big deal. It's like it's a nothing.
Speaker 1: And I imagine at the time it was so huge
Speaker 1: and the decision and how it's going to go and
Speaker 1: explaining to people. But it's a little bit like, you know,
Speaker 1: when you're pregnant, you think so much about the birth
Speaker 1: and then that's just a day. You know, it's like,
Speaker 1: how the baby's got here? Did they come vaginally? Did
Speaker 1: they come cesarean? How did they It doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1: They're your kids and your grandsons. Is that how you feel?
Speaker 2: That's exactly how I feel. Like that's a distant memory.
Speaker 3: I can't even remember, like the semantics that they're here
Speaker 3: and this is this is what matters.
Speaker 2: Some people have asked me how was it hard to
Speaker 2: bond with them because you didn't carry them? And I
Speaker 2: just respond with do you ask like the second parent
Speaker 2: in any but like, for example, dads do you ask dads?
Speaker 2: Do you find it hard to bond?
Speaker 1: So true?
Speaker 2: Like, no, I always knew that this was my baby. Yeah,
Speaker 2: wed the whole time preparing for this. It was a
Speaker 2: long journey to get to this. Yes, I have bonded
Speaker 2: quite easily with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so happy for your beautiful family. What are
Speaker 1: they like? Do they have different personalities?
Speaker 2: Completely different? They are so much fun. I love toddlers.
Speaker 2: It's really hard to take both of them out. Like
Speaker 2: sometimes I'll just be like, oh, if I only had one,
Speaker 2: this would be so much easier.
Speaker 1: Should give one back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Spencer is crazy. He runs everywhere. He's so loud,
Speaker 2: and he'll get in their full of personality. Hugo is
Speaker 2: so chill. He loves just sitting there playing with things.
Speaker 2: He's strawing.
Speaker 1: They are here, they are right and jazzy. People ask
Speaker 1: me this all the time. How's being a grandmar different
Speaker 1: to being a mum?
Speaker 2: Oh so different, so so different. The love you have
Speaker 2: is different.
Speaker 3: And I'm trying not to be over bearing. That's just
Speaker 3: me anyway. But I'm so proud of them. I love
Speaker 3: them with my heart and soul. I would do anything,
Speaker 3: anything for them. I love spending time with them, no
Speaker 3: matter how tired you are, me what kind of a
Speaker 3: week you've had. As grandkids walk in the door, you
Speaker 3: forget everything and you focus on them. And I intend
Speaker 3: on being a big part of their lives. I hope,
Speaker 3: I hope that the kids allow me to still and
Speaker 3: they will. They're not moving anywhere.
Speaker 1: Surely you have some extra privileges. I mean, God, if
Speaker 1: you can't, is that as a little bit of a guilt, Like, hey,
Speaker 1: remember that time I got cut in half? You could
Speaker 1: have a baby, remember that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to play that card.
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's my scar. Look at this scar.
Speaker 2: I've never had this before. You were saying, like, because
Speaker 2: you don't have to like discipline them, and it's not
Speaker 2: It's this love and playfulness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, mish, it's all of the same love that you
Speaker 1: have for your children, but none of the overwhelmings. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and not one bit of mental load. It's pure joy, Yes,
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: I'm also so lucky that I have so much support
Speaker 2: close by, like johnno is the best, Like I have
Speaker 2: my parents, my in laws, like there is so much help.
Speaker 2: And I totally understand how this time in people's lives
Speaker 2: could be so overwhelming and so exhausting. But I'm so
Speaker 2: lucky that there are so many hands to help because
Speaker 2: I have been able to enjoy this part. Because of that,
Speaker 2: I qualified for the attorney to leave Mia. I took
Speaker 2: maternity leave, that's excellent.
Speaker 3: And then I took twelve months of my own age
Speaker 3: and we helped Sophie, her mother and Sharon was there.
Speaker 2: We were all there like like on a rotating roster.
Speaker 1: You guys what a family. I mean. They say it
Speaker 1: takes a village, because it does, but not everyone's lucky
Speaker 1: enough to have a village. And the lengths that you
Speaker 1: have all gone for each other and the love that's there.
Speaker 1: Ralph would be very proud. Yeah, he did good things
Speaker 1: in his short time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we're lucky we can.
Speaker 3: Science has progressed and we're able to do this sort
Speaker 3: of stuff.
Speaker 1: Now, if that didn't put a smile on your dial,
Speaker 1: I don't know what will. Because they're just to hoot
Speaker 1: those two. It's so funny. Jasmina is just I just
Speaker 1: and the tricks that her husband played on their friends,
Speaker 1: the whole story just filled me with joy. In interesting,
Speaker 1: there's been some conversations about the census coming up next
Speaker 1: year or the year after and what questions are going
Speaker 1: to be on the census and what makes a family
Speaker 1: and how the makeup of a family has really changed
Speaker 1: so much and people are making their own families in
Speaker 1: all different ways. And you know, they say it takes
Speaker 1: a village to raise a child, but as we just discovered,
Speaker 1: sometimes it takes a village to actually make a child.
Speaker 1: It's not always simple. And that question, when you ask
Speaker 1: a woman how many children she has, you'll get a
Speaker 1: very different answer if she has any, but even if
Speaker 1: she doesn't to if you ask how many times a
Speaker 1: woman's been pregnant, And to me, that tells a story
Speaker 1: that's so often invisible and when people think about their families.
Speaker 1: It's not just the people who are here, it's also
Speaker 1: the people who didn't get to be here, or who
Speaker 1: didn't get to stay here, who were gone too soon,
Speaker 1: or who we never got to know. And I just
Speaker 1: love the work around the way that the love that
Speaker 1: a mother had for her child, and a sister in
Speaker 1: law had for a woman who'd become so close to
Speaker 1: her and her friend, and everyone just got on with it.
Speaker 2: I just love it.
Speaker 1: I'd love to be pregnant again if my daughter needs
Speaker 1: a uterus, I've still got one, or my daughter in law, Jesse,
Speaker 1: are you listening, she'd love that. Well, she actually doesn't
Speaker 1: like being pregnant, so I've always wanted to be surrogate.
Speaker 1: I'm happy to donate my uterus, So, Jesse, if you
Speaker 1: want to just like get on with things and not
Speaker 1: have morning sickness and stuff, I'll take on for the
Speaker 1: team and carry your next baby. Or would that be weird?
Speaker 1: Oh No, not weird at all. Anyway. We love stories
Speaker 1: about different kinds of shaped families on no Filter. If
Speaker 1: you have one, we'd love to hear about it, and
Speaker 1: I will put a link in the show notes to
Speaker 1: some of the other beautiful stories like this that we
Speaker 1: have been proud to present. The executive producer of No
Speaker 1: Filter is Naima Brown and she's made her own little
Speaker 1: family with her husband and her dog up the North Coast.
Speaker 1: Sound production is by Tom Lyon. Ra I always do
Speaker 1: rah for Tom. He likes his family life just like
Speaker 1: his coffee. Unconventional. Oh clickbait, Tom. I'm your host, MEA
Speaker 1: Friedman and yeah, I would really be a sarrogate. Bring it,
Speaker 1: bring it on.