WEBVTT - I Had My Daughter’s Baby... At 52 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:15.005 You're listening to a MoMA mia podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges 0:00:15.045 --> 0:00:17.685 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.765 --> 0:00:18.525 is recorded on. 0:00:19.405 --> 0:00:22.165 And I thought I could carry a baby for them. 0:00:22.365 --> 0:00:24.285 He said, don't be ridiculous. Do you know how old 0:00:24.325 --> 0:00:27.005 you are? He can't do that. I said, I can. 0:00:27.565 --> 0:00:31.645 I can anyway, And I approached Michelle. I said, Michelle, 0:00:31.845 --> 0:00:33.285 I'm going to do this for you. 0:00:42.045 --> 0:00:44.925 From Mamma Maya. I'm Maya Friedman and you're listening to 0:00:45.005 --> 0:00:50.645 No Filter right now. On the south coast of New 0:00:50.685 --> 0:00:55.165 South Wales, there are two gorgeous little boys. They're around 0:00:55.165 --> 0:00:58.805 a year and a half old, and they're called Hugo 0:00:59.285 --> 0:01:03.605 and Spencer. Hugo loves washing dishes and vacuuming, and he 0:01:03.645 --> 0:01:08.645 loves birds, and he also loves feeding ducks. Spencer, meanwhile, 0:01:08.965 --> 0:01:10.845 is a bit what a Usain Bolt in the making, 0:01:10.925 --> 0:01:14.525 and he's obsessed with running, and he'll eat nothing but 0:01:14.645 --> 0:01:17.725 rice cakes if he's allowed to, and he'll always tell 0:01:17.765 --> 0:01:21.885 you if he spots a circle. It's very important. Hugo 0:01:21.925 --> 0:01:26.125 and Spencer live with their very loving parents, Michelle and Johno, 0:01:26.365 --> 0:01:30.165 and they're surrounded by a whole gaggle of extended family, 0:01:31.125 --> 0:01:36.245 including their grandmother Jasmina and their auntie Sophie. Remember their names, 0:01:36.365 --> 0:01:41.445 They're important. None of this sounds particularly remarkable, right, I 0:01:41.525 --> 0:01:44.165 know that's probably what you're thinking. But how Hugo and 0:01:44.205 --> 0:01:46.765 Spencer came to be in the world is a very 0:01:46.925 --> 0:01:53.045 unique and unusual story. You see, their grandmother Jasmina and 0:01:53.085 --> 0:01:58.245 their auntie Sophie were also actually their surrogate mothers. This 0:01:58.325 --> 0:02:01.445 is a story of loss because Michelle did try to 0:02:01.445 --> 0:02:04.805 carry her babies herself, and Hugo and Spencer have a 0:02:04.805 --> 0:02:08.525 big brother named Ralph, who you'll hear about. But it 0:02:08.605 --> 0:02:13.405 is also a story of great sacrifice and generosity, of silliness, 0:02:13.765 --> 0:02:18.405 of motherhood, of grandmotherhood. Really, this is a love story 0:02:18.925 --> 0:02:21.605 like no other I've heard before. And if you can 0:02:21.645 --> 0:02:24.485 hear the smile in my voice, it's because I am 0:02:24.845 --> 0:02:29.925 just beaming remembering how much I loved this conversation. And 0:02:29.925 --> 0:02:33.165 at the beginning of this love story, it's Michelle and 0:02:33.245 --> 0:02:36.605 her husband John O, high school friends who found each 0:02:36.605 --> 0:02:40.485 other years later, fell in love and wanted to start 0:02:40.485 --> 0:02:48.725 a family. Did you guys ever talk about having kids? 0:02:48.925 --> 0:02:50.965 Like early on, like, what are we going to call 0:02:50.965 --> 0:02:52.805 our babies? How many kids do you want? 0:02:53.805 --> 0:02:57.245 Yes. As a relationship progressed, we did talk about what 0:02:57.285 --> 0:02:59.405 we saw in our future, and kids were definitely a 0:02:59.405 --> 0:03:04.245 part of that. We always wanted like a bigger family 0:03:04.445 --> 0:03:08.845 like John, I wanted four kids. I was fine with whatever. 0:03:09.605 --> 0:03:11.445 I didn't mind. I thought we'd see how we went, 0:03:12.205 --> 0:03:15.405 and so yeah, they were definitely always a definite thing 0:03:15.485 --> 0:03:17.885 that we were doing in our life together. 0:03:18.605 --> 0:03:22.205 You'd had a clue that maybe pregnancy wasn't going to 0:03:22.285 --> 0:03:25.965 be so easy for you. What was your first hint 0:03:26.005 --> 0:03:27.645 that fertility could be a struggle. 0:03:28.205 --> 0:03:31.765 My first hint was my first period. When that came, 0:03:31.965 --> 0:03:37.245 it came along with excruciating pain. So from pretty much 0:03:37.365 --> 0:03:41.965 day dot I would be in the fetal position with 0:03:42.165 --> 0:03:45.045 the amount of pain that I had, and that was 0:03:45.325 --> 0:03:49.885 consistent up until I started taking medication that stopped my 0:03:49.925 --> 0:03:52.885 period altogether. And they were the best years of my 0:03:52.965 --> 0:03:56.605 life because I experienced no pain then because I just 0:03:56.645 --> 0:03:57.565 didn't have a period. 0:03:57.965 --> 0:04:01.925 As a doctor, I would diagnose, endo, did you have endometriosis? 0:04:02.285 --> 0:04:05.725 So it was because I was so young, they suspected 0:04:05.885 --> 0:04:08.965 it was endometriosis, but they didn't want to do a 0:04:09.045 --> 0:04:13.085 certain on me at that age, and so I just 0:04:13.165 --> 0:04:16.245 went along with it. They said it's probably endo. Just 0:04:16.325 --> 0:04:19.925 take the pill, don't take the sugar tablets, and you 0:04:19.965 --> 0:04:22.805 won't get a period, and you might not experience pain, 0:04:23.485 --> 0:04:25.765 which at the time I was like, great, that's fine. 0:04:25.885 --> 0:04:29.565 Like I didn't even think about future repercussions of that. 0:04:30.365 --> 0:04:32.965 I just thought, right now, this is stopping all my pain, 0:04:33.125 --> 0:04:36.085 so this is great. When I finally came off of them, 0:04:36.445 --> 0:04:40.885 the pain came back straight away. I would be like 0:04:41.205 --> 0:04:44.925 in bed at two am, like on all fours, rocking 0:04:44.965 --> 0:04:47.125 from side to side like I was about to give birth. 0:04:47.725 --> 0:04:50.525 I had alarms going off on my phone all the 0:04:50.565 --> 0:04:52.725 time to remind me to take painkillers. 0:04:53.045 --> 0:04:57.365 That sounds horrific, Jasmina, did you have difficult periods? Did 0:04:57.405 --> 0:04:59.325 you have any experience in dealing with this. 0:05:00.605 --> 0:05:03.045 In the beginning, I thought, why is she making such 0:05:03.085 --> 0:05:05.565 a big deal. It is a bit uncomfortable. 0:05:05.725 --> 0:05:06.405 Drama queen. 0:05:06.525 --> 0:05:08.845 Yeah, drama queen exactly because I was a bit tough 0:05:08.885 --> 0:05:09.765 love of a mum. 0:05:09.965 --> 0:05:10.165 Yeah. 0:05:10.405 --> 0:05:12.765 I saw that she was actually sweating with the pain 0:05:12.845 --> 0:05:14.725 that she was experiencing. I thought, hang on a minute, 0:05:14.765 --> 0:05:17.925 this is not right. And then we did go to specialists. 0:05:18.205 --> 0:05:19.645 We did get ultrasounds. 0:05:19.645 --> 0:05:20.565 We got all the. 0:05:20.525 --> 0:05:23.605 Tests, and they didn't really give us any indication of 0:05:23.645 --> 0:05:25.765 what she would go through when she decided to have 0:05:25.805 --> 0:05:28.845 a family. Nobody actually envisaged that or told us or 0:05:28.885 --> 0:05:29.885 warned us about it. 0:05:30.405 --> 0:05:33.805 It was always suspected ENDO. And when I finally had 0:05:34.205 --> 0:05:37.845 an operation, they said, yeah, they confirmed it was endo. 0:05:38.445 --> 0:05:41.405 But then there was a comment made saying that, oh, 0:05:41.445 --> 0:05:44.205 your uterus is a bit small. I was like, oh, okay, 0:05:44.805 --> 0:05:48.005 we didn't comment, Yeah, that's fine. 0:05:48.205 --> 0:05:50.405 Yeah, yeah, Like how did you find out that you 0:05:50.565 --> 0:05:51.885 had a unicorn uterus? 0:05:52.285 --> 0:05:55.565 It wasn't until I went to see another specialist who 0:05:55.565 --> 0:06:00.325 did another laparoscopy and said that they found this thing 0:06:00.485 --> 0:06:03.005 that comes up on ultrasounds, and people thought it was 0:06:03.045 --> 0:06:08.365 an endometrioma, so just a sack filled with blood. Always 0:06:08.365 --> 0:06:11.125 assumed it was that. Yeah, but it was actually a 0:06:11.205 --> 0:06:15.765 part of my uters that didn't quite meet the other 0:06:15.845 --> 0:06:18.365 half of it when I was forming as a fetus. 0:06:18.405 --> 0:06:21.685 So my uterus was coming together as a fetus, and 0:06:21.765 --> 0:06:24.405 this side was late to the party and kind of 0:06:24.445 --> 0:06:29.885 attached itself awkwardly. And that was trying to menstrum eight. 0:06:30.085 --> 0:06:33.205 Every time I had a period, had nowhere to go 0:06:33.365 --> 0:06:35.645 and so my body was cramping trying to get it 0:06:35.805 --> 0:06:38.045 out but it wasn't working. 0:06:38.645 --> 0:06:41.485 Wow, could you just get it removed? Yeah? I did, 0:06:41.965 --> 0:06:43.005 and that stopped the pain. 0:06:43.405 --> 0:06:46.245 Yeah, I think all those years, how cranky I am 0:06:46.285 --> 0:06:48.685 that she suffered with that when it was such an 0:06:48.685 --> 0:06:51.245 easy fix. So you've got to go to the right doctor. 0:06:52.325 --> 0:06:55.565 You had started an IVF fund for yourself before you 0:06:55.685 --> 0:06:58.445 even met or No, so you must have had a 0:06:58.485 --> 0:07:00.605 clue that it was going to be difficult because of 0:07:00.645 --> 0:07:02.565 all of this, right, Yeah. 0:07:02.245 --> 0:07:04.805 I did. I knew that the level of pain that 0:07:04.845 --> 0:07:08.085 I was experiencing was not normal. Yeah, that I wanted 0:07:08.085 --> 0:07:10.845 to eventually have kids. I knew that IVF was expensive, 0:07:11.125 --> 0:07:14.965 and so it wasn't necessarily I was saving money for IVF. 0:07:15.045 --> 0:07:18.885 I was just saving money and I had a lot 0:07:18.925 --> 0:07:21.085 of money in a savings account and I would just 0:07:21.725 --> 0:07:24.925 refer to it as my IVF fund. I think I 0:07:25.005 --> 0:07:26.925 ended up using it to go on a holiday. 0:07:27.285 --> 0:07:31.885 But tour if that wouldn't have even. 0:07:31.645 --> 0:07:33.285 Covered the expense issue. 0:07:33.645 --> 0:07:40.085 That's so true. You eventually did use IVF when you 0:07:40.165 --> 0:07:41.725 and John I decided you were going to try and 0:07:41.765 --> 0:07:45.205 start a family. What was your IVF experience like, how 0:07:45.245 --> 0:07:45.725 did it go. 0:07:46.565 --> 0:07:51.445 My iv experience for me was quite pleasant. I didn't 0:07:51.565 --> 0:07:55.365 really experience a lot of the adverse effects of the hormones. 0:07:55.765 --> 0:07:59.005 I didn't mind injecting myself. That wasn't a big deal. 0:07:59.925 --> 0:08:03.925 Collection wasn't that painful for me. It was all you 0:08:04.125 --> 0:08:06.805 endured so much pain throughout your life that this was 0:08:06.965 --> 0:08:09.285 just a number just to blease. 0:08:09.525 --> 0:08:12.485 Yeah, you did feel pregnant. Was it your first go 0:08:12.685 --> 0:08:13.365 at IVF? 0:08:13.805 --> 0:08:18.125 No, it was my We did two rounds of IVF. 0:08:18.925 --> 0:08:21.365 First round, we made two embryos and neither of them 0:08:21.405 --> 0:08:24.605 were successful. Then the second round of IVF, the first 0:08:24.605 --> 0:08:27.245 embryo that we implanted was successful. 0:08:27.925 --> 0:08:33.645 You felt pregnant that second round, you said, And in 0:08:33.725 --> 0:08:37.085 the early stages. Did you wake up in the night 0:08:37.125 --> 0:08:38.845 and you had a big bleed? What happened? 0:08:39.525 --> 0:08:42.565 I had just finished dinner and I had got up 0:08:42.645 --> 0:08:47.085 off my chair and I just felt a gush, and 0:08:47.125 --> 0:08:49.445 I was like, that's weird. I've never felt this before. 0:08:50.005 --> 0:08:53.725 So I went to the bathroom and there was just 0:08:53.845 --> 0:08:58.445 blood everywhere, and I just continued bleeding. It was like 0:08:58.485 --> 0:09:01.805 someone turned on a tap. Did it hurt, No, it 0:09:01.925 --> 0:09:04.685 was just blood was coming out. And I assumed that 0:09:04.725 --> 0:09:06.165 this was what a miscarriage was. 0:09:06.485 --> 0:09:09.965 Yeah, so you went to the hospital. Yeah, did you 0:09:09.965 --> 0:09:10.565 call your mom? 0:09:10.805 --> 0:09:15.325 He rang me, he said, he's aid, there's Michelle's really bleeding. 0:09:15.325 --> 0:09:19.005 And I didn't really understand how much blood she had 0:09:19.045 --> 0:09:22.165 lost until I went there, all over the floor that 0:09:22.285 --> 0:09:23.445 attempted to wipe. 0:09:23.205 --> 0:09:26.205 Some of it off in the corner of the shower. 0:09:27.205 --> 0:09:30.165 She was quite upset, and the ambulance came and took her, 0:09:30.245 --> 0:09:32.165 and yeah, it was horrible. 0:09:32.805 --> 0:09:35.925 That must have been so scary and also sad because 0:09:35.965 --> 0:09:37.205 you thought you were losing the baby. 0:09:38.205 --> 0:09:40.725 At that point, I assumed that this was a miscarriage. 0:09:41.325 --> 0:09:43.685 So they did the ultrasound, and I assume you expected 0:09:43.725 --> 0:09:44.965 them to find nothing there. 0:09:46.245 --> 0:09:50.165 I was passing really big clots, and every time one 0:09:50.245 --> 0:09:54.565 came out, I assumed that that was our baby. Yeah, 0:09:54.605 --> 0:09:58.365 and then the sonographer was just like, oh, and there's 0:09:58.405 --> 0:10:03.085 the heartbeat, and I was like, excuse me, Yeah. 0:10:02.765 --> 0:10:06.725 Wow, little guy was holding on a fighter. What a fighter? 0:10:07.645 --> 0:10:10.725 So did that mean that the pregnancy was pretty high risk? 0:10:10.765 --> 0:10:11.845 I imagine at this point. 0:10:12.285 --> 0:10:16.325 Yeah, So with my unicorn, you a uterus and the 0:10:16.365 --> 0:10:20.245 bleeding was very consistent, Like I bled every single day 0:10:20.285 --> 0:10:24.405 that pregnancy more than I would have a regular period. 0:10:24.725 --> 0:10:27.005 So I was bleeding quite a lot. 0:10:27.525 --> 0:10:28.525 Were you so anemic? 0:10:30.125 --> 0:10:32.125 Probably was, but that was the last thing that was 0:10:32.325 --> 0:10:33.325 last on my mind. 0:10:33.725 --> 0:10:35.925 How do you get it? Like, every time you went 0:10:35.965 --> 0:10:37.805 to the bathroom or you felt the blood coming out, 0:10:37.805 --> 0:10:41.245 you must have thought or he's gone, He's like, what's happening? 0:10:41.285 --> 0:10:44.965 How do you manage that mentally for all those weeks? 0:10:45.285 --> 0:10:48.885 I guess you kind of repress all. 0:10:49.405 --> 0:10:50.685 That'll do it. Yeah. 0:10:50.805 --> 0:10:54.405 Yeah, she's still working full time. Yeah, from her couch. 0:10:54.845 --> 0:10:57.365 Yeah. It was in COVID, so I got to work 0:10:57.365 --> 0:11:00.285 from home. That was That was a blessing. Actually, she 0:11:00.365 --> 0:11:03.485 could just lie on the couch. Yeah, she didn't do 0:11:03.605 --> 0:11:05.565 very much. We wouldn't letter of it, but I just 0:11:05.645 --> 0:11:09.205 assumed that if it wasn't a big bleed. Yeah, every 0:11:09.565 --> 0:11:12.925 was still fine, and we were having very regular ultrasounds 0:11:12.965 --> 0:11:13.325 as well. 0:11:13.885 --> 0:11:17.725 And did your doctor tell you that you would probably 0:11:17.765 --> 0:11:20.485 carry a term, maybe not carry a term? What were 0:11:20.525 --> 0:11:21.165 they telling you? 0:11:21.725 --> 0:11:24.445 Yeah, so my doctor said that there are lots of 0:11:24.445 --> 0:11:29.485 women with this kind of uterus that usually will carry 0:11:30.205 --> 0:11:33.085 up until around the thirties, like m. 0:11:33.605 --> 0:11:35.845 Which is good. I mean it's still premature, but it's good. 0:11:36.205 --> 0:11:38.605 Yeah, he said that he might be around thirty five 0:11:38.725 --> 0:11:42.045 thirty six weeks. Problem might be that the baby's breach 0:11:42.085 --> 0:11:44.805 because there's not much for him to turn around. Problem 0:11:44.925 --> 0:11:47.125 might be that, yeah, it might not be able to 0:11:47.165 --> 0:11:49.445 stretch as far, so it might come a bit early. 0:11:50.005 --> 0:11:52.845 But there are so many women around the world that 0:11:53.005 --> 0:11:57.205 are able to carry babies to term. Wow, yeah, it's 0:11:57.285 --> 0:11:58.365 kind of uterus. 0:11:58.645 --> 0:12:02.605 So you were trying to get to at least twenty 0:12:02.645 --> 0:12:05.885 four weeks, twenty five weeks, which is kind of viability. Yea, 0:12:06.565 --> 0:12:07.645 how far did you get? 0:12:08.525 --> 0:12:08.965 Nineteen? 0:12:10.245 --> 0:12:11.045 Then what happened? 0:12:11.445 --> 0:12:15.245 Then? I woke up, I think it was a weekend, 0:12:15.885 --> 0:12:20.325 and I went to the bathroom and there was no blood, 0:12:20.365 --> 0:12:24.005 which was pretty good, good morning. And then I just 0:12:24.165 --> 0:12:28.485 noticed that, like the TEMI the toilet paper was a 0:12:28.525 --> 0:12:31.765 little bit more wet, yeah than it usually is. And 0:12:31.805 --> 0:12:34.485 I was like, that's a bit weird. Went back into bed, 0:12:34.885 --> 0:12:38.605 laid down. I was perfectly still laying horizontally, and then 0:12:38.885 --> 0:12:42.285 just gush of water came out and I was like, 0:12:42.365 --> 0:12:47.525 my water's just broken, and so we rushed to the hospital. 0:12:48.725 --> 0:12:50.045 Jazzy, did Johnna call you? 0:12:50.765 --> 0:12:51.085 Well? 0:12:51.165 --> 0:12:53.325 That night they came to our house. 0:12:53.405 --> 0:12:56.605 We had dinner, and it was getting late, and they said, look, 0:12:56.645 --> 0:12:59.525 don't drive home, just stay over. And Michelle, I remember, 0:12:59.565 --> 0:13:01.005 said to me that night. I don't know if she 0:13:01.085 --> 0:13:03.845 remembers I don't feel right. I said, oh, I've probably 0:13:03.885 --> 0:13:06.285 eaten too much, blowing on the cash. She said, I 0:13:06.325 --> 0:13:10.325 just don't feel right. And yeah, Johnna, I said, look, 0:13:10.485 --> 0:13:12.685 I think Michelle's waters have broken. 0:13:12.725 --> 0:13:15.325 So we rushed to the hospital. I went with them, 0:13:15.565 --> 0:13:17.725 and yeah. 0:13:18.005 --> 0:13:20.605 When you were driving there, I'm sorry this tell me 0:13:20.645 --> 0:13:22.605 if this is all too upsetting, But when you were 0:13:22.685 --> 0:13:26.645 driving there, did you think there was a chance or 0:13:26.685 --> 0:13:30.805 did you know it's nineteen weeks, this isn't going to 0:13:30.925 --> 0:13:31.365 end well. 0:13:31.685 --> 0:13:36.445 I think in the moment, you're just trying to deal 0:13:36.525 --> 0:13:40.365 with the situation at hand that I wasn't necessarily thinking 0:13:41.165 --> 0:13:43.445 at part of the future. I still I didn't know 0:13:44.525 --> 0:13:46.925 if this was something we could come back from. I 0:13:46.965 --> 0:13:50.125 didn't know what was really happening, and so I was 0:13:51.085 --> 0:13:52.725 just yeah, in this limbo. 0:13:52.925 --> 0:13:56.125 Didn't the ultrasound person when they altra sounded you and 0:13:56.165 --> 0:13:59.445 they found that the baby's heartbeat was still beating, I 0:13:59.445 --> 0:14:01.285 think he said to you, or she said to you. 0:14:01.405 --> 0:14:05.125 Sometimes the amnuonic fluid builds back up, so there was hope. 0:14:05.205 --> 0:14:06.285 There was still hope. 0:14:06.845 --> 0:14:10.045 Sometimes it reseals and it fell back up. Oh okay, 0:14:10.085 --> 0:14:11.485 well that's going to happen this time. 0:14:11.685 --> 0:14:11.965 Yeah. 0:14:12.645 --> 0:14:15.645 Sometimes it doesn't reseal, but it builds up and then 0:14:15.765 --> 0:14:19.525 it's still enough for the baby to practice swallowing and breathing. 0:14:20.125 --> 0:14:21.885 But yeah, that wasn't our case. 0:14:22.525 --> 0:14:26.325 You had to give birth to little baby Ralph. I'm 0:14:26.365 --> 0:14:31.565 so sorry he was born having already passed away. And 0:14:33.365 --> 0:14:38.005 this is going to sound so strange, but I lost 0:14:38.045 --> 0:14:42.005 a baby at that same point, at eighteen or nineteen weeks. 0:14:42.965 --> 0:14:47.845 And when I watched your story on Australian Story, and 0:14:47.885 --> 0:14:50.325 I watched the time that you got to spend with 0:14:50.405 --> 0:14:54.685 baby Ralph in the hospital room, I was so jealous 0:14:55.245 --> 0:15:00.885 because I didn't get that and I couldn't. I was 0:15:00.925 --> 0:15:02.525 given the choice to give birth and I felt that 0:15:02.565 --> 0:15:05.765 I couldn't, and so I had an operation and when 0:15:05.765 --> 0:15:07.885 I woke up, that baby was gone and there were 0:15:07.885 --> 0:15:11.365 no remains that that they were able to give me 0:15:12.285 --> 0:15:15.125 because of what happened, you know, when they're extracting her. 0:15:15.365 --> 0:15:20.325 And it's so funny because it was such a tragic thing. 0:15:20.405 --> 0:15:24.565 Those images of you in the hospital and yet what 0:15:24.645 --> 0:15:27.525 a gift that was to get to spend two days 0:15:28.485 --> 0:15:31.765 with your baby. Is that how you see it? 0:15:33.485 --> 0:15:41.045 Yeah, when I was giving birth, I had always dreamed 0:15:41.085 --> 0:15:46.725 about giving birth vaginally naturally. I thought I had experienced 0:15:46.725 --> 0:15:49.045 so much pain with my periods that I used to 0:15:49.125 --> 0:15:50.805 joke I was like, child, that's going to be easy 0:15:51.045 --> 0:15:52.805 to dream. 0:15:52.365 --> 0:15:56.165 Like I'll phone it in. Yeah. 0:15:56.445 --> 0:15:59.925 I was so grateful that I was able to give 0:15:59.965 --> 0:16:03.725 birth that even though it wasn't going to be, you know, 0:16:03.805 --> 0:16:05.765 a nice outcome in the end, I was so grateful 0:16:05.765 --> 0:16:08.045 that I got to experience it. I was so grateful 0:16:08.085 --> 0:16:11.765 that a few days before my water broke, I could 0:16:11.805 --> 0:16:17.765 feel him start to move a little bit. I was 0:16:17.805 --> 0:16:21.605 so grateful for all of that. Like a memory that 0:16:21.685 --> 0:16:24.885 sticks with me is when he finally came all the 0:16:24.925 --> 0:16:27.605 way down, Like I could feel everything, and I just 0:16:27.645 --> 0:16:31.045 thought that was amazing, Like I never thought that you 0:16:31.085 --> 0:16:36.085 could feel all of that. It was incredible. And the 0:16:36.125 --> 0:16:41.685 way that hospitals now treat a stillbirth is so amazing. 0:16:42.205 --> 0:16:45.685 There are a volunteer group of photographers that came and 0:16:45.725 --> 0:16:49.925 took photos of us as a family, which was amazing. 0:16:50.045 --> 0:16:52.365 The social workers that come in home chat to you 0:16:52.445 --> 0:16:55.165 all the time. We had a cool crib so Ralph 0:16:55.205 --> 0:16:57.325 could stay next to us, we could have him. 0:16:57.645 --> 0:16:59.805 Had a little beanie. 0:16:59.645 --> 0:17:03.325 Yes, yeah, like the old grandma's and it the beanies. 0:17:03.965 --> 0:17:07.485 Wow, tiny little beanies like thimbles. 0:17:07.725 --> 0:17:10.405 It is amazing and I'm I'm so grateful that we 0:17:10.485 --> 0:17:13.285 got to spend that time. Before I gave birth. I 0:17:13.285 --> 0:17:16.085 didn't know if I wanted to. I was just like, 0:17:16.205 --> 0:17:19.085 I don't know if I want I don't know if 0:17:19.125 --> 0:17:21.685 I want him in a cool crib. I don't know 0:17:21.685 --> 0:17:24.765 how I'm going to feel about this. But when he 0:17:24.885 --> 0:17:26.685 was here, I was like, no, I do want this. 0:17:26.685 --> 0:17:27.805 This is really nice. 0:17:30.125 --> 0:17:33.365 After this break, what made Jasmina decide that she would 0:17:33.365 --> 0:17:36.485 do whatever it took not to see her daughter Michelle 0:17:36.525 --> 0:17:40.365 in so much grief and so much physical danger. Ever again, 0:17:43.525 --> 0:17:47.085 before you got to be with him, you started hemorrhaging 0:17:48.125 --> 0:17:48.845 in a big way. 0:17:49.365 --> 0:17:50.005 Yeah. 0:17:50.045 --> 0:17:51.365 Do you have any memories of that? 0:17:52.205 --> 0:17:55.365 Vivid memories. I remember everything. I remember the name of 0:17:55.405 --> 0:17:57.925 the anethetist as I was wheeled into surgery. 0:17:58.085 --> 0:17:58.725 Yeah. 0:17:58.765 --> 0:18:02.805 I think with such like a traumatic event, my brain 0:18:03.045 --> 0:18:08.245 just absorbed everything. It was just on. I was delivering 0:18:08.285 --> 0:18:12.205 the placenta, I was holding Ralph, and the placenta was 0:18:12.245 --> 0:18:15.165 coming out in like little bits. It was a bit funny, 0:18:15.805 --> 0:18:18.725 and my doctor was like, oh, this is a bit weird. 0:18:19.405 --> 0:18:21.565 It might just be because you delivered so early that 0:18:21.605 --> 0:18:25.445 the placenter's whatever. And then she was like, just give 0:18:25.485 --> 0:18:27.965 me a couple of pushes, and so I was pushing. 0:18:28.005 --> 0:18:30.765 Everything was fine, and then all of a sudden, it 0:18:30.845 --> 0:18:33.885 was like a horror film in like the fifties where 0:18:34.085 --> 0:18:39.805 things blood was squirting out. My poor husband was sitting 0:18:39.885 --> 0:18:43.285 there just watching it. I was I could feel things happening. 0:18:43.765 --> 0:18:46.245 Yeah, what did it feel like from the inside. 0:18:46.485 --> 0:18:50.405 I first felt like one of the big gushes of 0:18:50.445 --> 0:18:54.045 blood that I had previously, just a gush of blood 0:18:54.285 --> 0:18:57.365 that I'm assuming like lots of women have when they 0:18:57.405 --> 0:19:00.605 have a flooding event, assuming it's the same as that. 0:19:01.205 --> 0:19:04.565 It was just a big gush. And then all of 0:19:04.605 --> 0:19:08.525 a sudden, the doctor was like, okay, I'm going to 0:19:08.605 --> 0:19:11.845 call things. I had a midwife next to me that 0:19:11.885 --> 0:19:15.365 started pumping my stomach. The other midwife was trying to 0:19:15.405 --> 0:19:18.245 detangle me from all the cords and disconnect me so 0:19:18.285 --> 0:19:21.125 they could wheel me away, and my doctor was like, 0:19:21.245 --> 0:19:23.445 we're just going to take you into theater. You're bleeding 0:19:23.485 --> 0:19:25.245 a little bit. We're just going to do something to 0:19:25.245 --> 0:19:27.845 stop it. And they were all so calm. It was 0:19:27.965 --> 0:19:31.845 just like, oh, okay, yep, that's fine. Meanwhile, John I 0:19:31.885 --> 0:19:34.245 was standing next to me. He was like he just said, 0:19:34.285 --> 0:19:36.685 He was like, there was so much blood. You got 0:19:36.725 --> 0:19:39.285 it on the walls. It was all over the doctor. 0:19:40.685 --> 0:19:43.765 That part, and he was holding Ralph. 0:19:43.165 --> 0:19:46.125 And then yeah, we passed him Ralph. They wheeled me away. 0:19:46.245 --> 0:19:48.445 So poor John I was left in a room by himself, 0:19:48.485 --> 0:19:51.885 holding his child that had passed away, with his wife's 0:19:51.965 --> 0:19:55.125 blood all over the room and potentially could pass away 0:19:55.165 --> 0:19:59.205 as well. Yeahs away from the well, I asked. I 0:19:59.325 --> 0:20:01.805 was asking the midwife as well, being wheeled down. I 0:20:01.845 --> 0:20:03.925 was like, do people pass away from this? And she 0:20:03.965 --> 0:20:05.725 looked at me and she was like no, no, no, 0:20:06.005 --> 0:20:08.085 And it was only afterwards that she was like, yeah, 0:20:08.365 --> 0:20:10.685 people came past away from memory ging. I just didn't 0:20:10.685 --> 0:20:11.885 want to tell you that at the time. 0:20:12.005 --> 0:20:13.725 Did you also say to that because you told me 0:20:13.765 --> 0:20:15.725 you said you asked her, am I going to die today? 0:20:15.845 --> 0:20:17.285 Yeah? I said, I was like, am I going to 0:20:17.365 --> 0:20:20.205 die from this? Do people die from this? And she 0:20:20.365 --> 0:20:21.845 was like no, no, no, you'll be fine. 0:20:22.125 --> 0:20:25.885 Imagine if she said, well sometimes she did come. 0:20:27.685 --> 0:20:30.805 Her. Yeah. It was only afterward that she said that 0:20:30.885 --> 0:20:36.445 she believes that people are aware of their bodies. And 0:20:36.805 --> 0:20:43.245 when I said that, she was like, oh gosh, does she. 0:20:42.405 --> 0:20:46.325 Know where were you? Jazzy? 0:20:46.645 --> 0:20:50.565 It was bloody covid, Oh my gosh, telephone not knowing 0:20:50.605 --> 0:20:52.845 whether and John I was trying to pay it down, 0:20:52.845 --> 0:20:53.125 but I. 0:20:53.045 --> 0:20:56.685 Could hear in his voice that he was panicked. He said, look, 0:20:56.725 --> 0:21:00.605 we've had a son. He didn't make it, and she'll 0:21:00.765 --> 0:21:03.485 just had to go to theater. Said what what theater? 0:21:03.845 --> 0:21:05.245 Does she have a cesarean? No? 0:21:05.245 --> 0:21:07.765 No, and she said, oh there was a bit of 0:21:07.805 --> 0:21:10.005 blood and they have to stop her. And it was 0:21:10.005 --> 0:21:12.565 only afterwards that they told me the extent of it, 0:21:12.965 --> 0:21:15.325 especially because she was in I see you for a 0:21:15.365 --> 0:21:16.485 couple of days, just. 0:21:17.325 --> 0:21:19.445 A day that was a day long, just one day, 0:21:19.565 --> 0:21:21.165 just one day, and I see you nearly dying. 0:21:21.205 --> 0:21:25.125 Just that's Michelle all over me everything. 0:21:24.885 --> 0:21:25.685 Just one short day. 0:21:25.925 --> 0:21:28.085 It was very, very scary, very jause. 0:21:28.205 --> 0:21:32.405 You must have been like an animal, like wanting to 0:21:32.445 --> 0:21:33.485 get to your what. 0:21:34.165 --> 0:21:36.165 I didn't want to be that person that was always 0:21:36.205 --> 0:21:38.405 in their face, but I wanted to know is my daughter. 0:21:38.525 --> 0:21:41.925 Okay, it was horrible, horrible. It was the worst time ever. 0:21:42.165 --> 0:21:47.285 I don't want I can't even imagine. And then when 0:21:47.325 --> 0:21:51.045 you came out what you endured, which was beautiful but 0:21:51.125 --> 0:21:53.485 also heartbreaking because no one wants a pregnancy to end 0:21:53.565 --> 0:21:59.525 that way. You go home, you leave Ralph. That must 0:21:59.565 --> 0:22:02.205 have been incredibly tough doing that. 0:22:03.005 --> 0:22:06.325 Yeah, it was really hard. I wanted to take him home. Yeah, 0:22:06.565 --> 0:22:08.525 also knew that I couldn't. 0:22:09.045 --> 0:22:11.685 Well, John rang me, and you said, Jesse, you've got 0:22:11.685 --> 0:22:14.165 to ring Michelle and tell her. She doesn't want to 0:22:14.205 --> 0:22:19.005 let Ralph go. She won't let them take him. And 0:22:19.045 --> 0:22:19.885 I said, oh goodness. 0:22:19.965 --> 0:22:22.405 I said, have you told He said, I have, but 0:22:22.525 --> 0:22:25.125 you need to tell her. And I rang her. I said, miss, 0:22:25.285 --> 0:22:26.125 you've got to do this. 0:22:26.285 --> 0:22:29.725 You can't, you can't, I said, you just it's hard, 0:22:29.845 --> 0:22:30.965 but you have to let him go. 0:22:31.205 --> 0:22:33.725 And that was one of the hardest things. And she said, 0:22:33.725 --> 0:22:35.285 black heart, Mom, I don't want to let him go 0:22:35.325 --> 0:22:40.165 because I'll never see him again. Yeah. So yeah, it 0:22:40.245 --> 0:22:43.845 was really hard. Yeah, but I'm so grateful for all 0:22:43.845 --> 0:22:46.565 the photos that we got with him and all the 0:22:46.645 --> 0:22:48.525 days that we got to spend with him. 0:22:49.125 --> 0:22:53.245 I mean, there's like proof of him. Yeah, he was real. 0:22:53.605 --> 0:22:55.685 He was your boy. He made her a mom, He 0:22:55.805 --> 0:22:56.645 made you a mom. 0:22:56.845 --> 0:22:59.365 She got to experience pregnancy and birth. 0:22:59.765 --> 0:23:04.445 Oh my god, when did they tell you, hey, we're 0:23:04.445 --> 0:23:05.565 not going to be doing that again. 0:23:06.085 --> 0:23:08.525 It was when I went to a follow up appointment 0:23:08.805 --> 0:23:13.245 after everything settled down. My obstraitrician just looked at me 0:23:13.325 --> 0:23:15.845 and said, I don't think you should try that again. 0:23:16.325 --> 0:23:20.125 And I was like, why not? Why can't I? And 0:23:20.205 --> 0:23:24.525 she was just like, there's too many variables at play here. 0:23:24.845 --> 0:23:27.645 We don't know why you bled the whole time. We 0:23:27.685 --> 0:23:30.845 don't know why your water broke so early, we don't 0:23:30.885 --> 0:23:35.885 know why you hemorrhaged afterwards. There's too many things that 0:23:36.005 --> 0:23:40.685 are either going to cause more trauma to yourself or 0:23:41.245 --> 0:23:47.325 potentially negative health effects. You might not make it next time. Dramatic, 0:23:47.445 --> 0:23:49.285 I'm not dramatic. And this is the truth. 0:23:49.765 --> 0:23:53.365 Well, it is true, it's actually true. Listen to your mother, 0:23:53.845 --> 0:23:56.605 Michelle and your doctors. They're right, it's too risky. 0:23:57.125 --> 0:23:59.445 Yeah, but I knew Michelle May. I knew that she 0:23:59.485 --> 0:24:03.245 would not take no for an answer. Yeah, that would 0:24:03.245 --> 0:24:05.125 do it. And my husband and I spoke about it. 0:24:05.165 --> 0:24:07.125 We thought, there is no way Michelle's going to go. 0:24:07.205 --> 0:24:10.085 Oh okay, I can't go again. I won't be your mum. 0:24:10.485 --> 0:24:12.525 So you were worried that she was going to do 0:24:12.565 --> 0:24:13.485 it again and risk. 0:24:13.325 --> 0:24:15.405 Her life one hundred percent. My husband and I was 0:24:15.445 --> 0:24:19.325 speaking to each other. I said, Druggy, Michelle's not going 0:24:19.365 --> 0:24:20.725 to take no for a nance. He said, but you 0:24:20.725 --> 0:24:23.005 know she's been told. And my husband had no idea 0:24:23.045 --> 0:24:26.325 about Sarregussie at this stage. But I had heard about 0:24:26.365 --> 0:24:31.445 it years and years previously, and I thought I could 0:24:31.485 --> 0:24:33.325 carry I could carry a baby for them. 0:24:33.605 --> 0:24:35.525 He said, don't be ridiculous. Do you know how old 0:24:35.565 --> 0:24:38.285 you are. You can't do that. I said, I can, 0:24:38.845 --> 0:24:42.405 I can, and I researched it. I girgled it. I 0:24:42.485 --> 0:24:45.925 shady articles. There's not very much out there, especially in 0:24:45.965 --> 0:24:51.005 Australia anyway, and I approached Michelle. I said, Michelle, I'm 0:24:51.005 --> 0:24:54.445 going to do this for you. She said, are you sure, mum? Anyway, 0:24:54.445 --> 0:24:56.365 I don't know how Michelle felt about it, but I was. 0:24:56.445 --> 0:25:00.245 I was adamant I was going to do it. I've got. 0:25:01.925 --> 0:25:05.645 Where were you? How did that conversation happen? Just like 0:25:05.845 --> 0:25:08.525 over a cup of tea or it was. 0:25:09.645 --> 0:25:11.845 It was like a running joke that we had even 0:25:11.885 --> 0:25:15.685 before all this happened, because I knew that, like the 0:25:15.685 --> 0:25:17.485 pain that I was experienced was a lot. I knew 0:25:17.485 --> 0:25:19.405 that I had half a uterus. I knew all of this, 0:25:19.525 --> 0:25:21.445 and Mom was like, I'll just do it for you 0:25:21.525 --> 0:25:23.965 if you can't haha. Like it was always a running joke. 0:25:24.205 --> 0:25:26.645 My husband had never paid attention to any of this stuff, 0:25:27.165 --> 0:25:29.445 and it was I don't I don't even remember it, 0:25:29.485 --> 0:25:32.245 do you know, I don't remember it. It was just like, 0:25:32.685 --> 0:25:34.725 I will do it for you. And I kept saying, 0:25:34.725 --> 0:25:37.125 my period, I'm still in a period. It's still happening. 0:25:37.525 --> 0:25:38.565 I can still do. 0:25:38.885 --> 0:25:42.565 Caught a lord above. At fifty two, you had a period, Chelsey, 0:25:42.645 --> 0:25:45.045 look at you? Possible? 0:25:45.245 --> 0:25:49.005 But I did and I kept every month. Yes, it's still. 0:25:50.325 --> 0:25:53.045 Did you need to have a period to be a surrogain? 0:25:53.365 --> 0:25:56.005 I don't know. I don't know, but they want you to. 0:25:56.205 --> 0:25:59.765 There is a cutoff. There is definitely age cut off. 0:26:00.045 --> 0:26:03.925 So by fifty two, which was me wow. 0:26:04.125 --> 0:26:08.005 Yeah, So we had to move quickly and we haven't 0:26:08.045 --> 0:26:11.485 talked about Sophie yet. John O's sister, your sister in law, 0:26:12.885 --> 0:26:16.045 was that like at the same family dinner that she said, yeah, 0:26:16.045 --> 0:26:19.285 I'll do that also, like what happens in your house? 0:26:19.445 --> 0:26:22.965 Yeah, again, I think it was Sophie. It was always 0:26:23.045 --> 0:26:25.645 just something that she also said. She was like, if 0:26:25.685 --> 0:26:30.285 you can't do it, I to do it for you. 0:26:30.685 --> 0:26:33.285 And then I think we went to her house afterwards 0:26:33.725 --> 0:26:36.405 and she just said to me, I'm serious, I will 0:26:36.445 --> 0:26:38.445 do it, like if you want me to. 0:26:39.245 --> 0:26:42.605 So my question is, Sophie had three children, Jazzi, you 0:26:43.085 --> 0:26:47.965 had Michelle and one other child. When you each found 0:26:48.005 --> 0:26:50.045 out that the other was going to do it or 0:26:50.125 --> 0:26:53.205 was willing to do it, didn't one of you go, oh, 0:26:53.285 --> 0:26:55.965 well you're sorted. I don't I won't do it too, 0:26:56.685 --> 0:26:57.805 let's just choose one. 0:26:58.445 --> 0:27:00.725 That was never an option for me. I was always 0:27:00.725 --> 0:27:03.325 going to try and help her out that way. I 0:27:03.365 --> 0:27:06.005 knew that she wanted to have well, I thought it 0:27:06.005 --> 0:27:07.885 would be nice for her to have more than one child. 0:27:08.445 --> 0:27:10.485 And it was a bitch asking Sophie. 0:27:10.165 --> 0:27:10.765 To do it. Twice. 0:27:10.845 --> 0:27:12.605 I thought, you know what, I'll put my hand up, 0:27:12.645 --> 0:27:14.925 I'll go one go, and Sophie was going to go 0:27:15.685 --> 0:27:16.165 as well. 0:27:16.285 --> 0:27:17.725 So there was her family. 0:27:18.245 --> 0:27:21.565 Did you already have the embryos from your previous rounds 0:27:21.565 --> 0:27:22.925 of IVF, so they were ready to go. 0:27:23.365 --> 0:27:25.525 Yeah. Yeah, the second round of IVF, we got a 0:27:25.525 --> 0:27:28.645 lot of embryos and so they were already they're ready 0:27:28.685 --> 0:27:30.085 to go, so we didn't have to go through that 0:27:30.165 --> 0:27:31.045 process again. 0:27:31.965 --> 0:27:35.685 What are the laws around surrogacy? You can't pay someone 0:27:35.725 --> 0:27:39.805 to carry a baby, but someone can do it altruistically, right, Yeah. 0:27:39.925 --> 0:27:43.965 The laws around surrogacy are that you need to complete counseling. 0:27:44.005 --> 0:27:47.045 There needs to be a legal agreement. The surrogate cannot 0:27:47.445 --> 0:27:52.405 be financially disadvantaged. In the agreement, you're also not allowed 0:27:52.445 --> 0:27:54.725 to pay them on top, so you're supposed to cover 0:27:55.405 --> 0:27:59.485 like medical costs all those peace. Yeah, if they have 0:27:59.605 --> 0:28:02.685 to take time off work, then you would pay for 0:28:02.725 --> 0:28:04.885 that time that they took off. 0:28:05.445 --> 0:28:07.365 Did you have to do two sets of counseling or 0:28:07.365 --> 0:28:09.925 could you all just like kill two birds with one 0:28:09.925 --> 0:28:11.885 stone and just all just going together? 0:28:12.125 --> 0:28:15.285 So we did. Myself and John are mum and dad. 0:28:15.765 --> 0:28:15.925 Yeah. 0:28:15.965 --> 0:28:17.445 I didn't understand why he needed. 0:28:17.245 --> 0:28:19.125 To be like what do I got to do with this? 0:28:20.645 --> 0:28:21.725 Why do I need to be here? 0:28:21.765 --> 0:28:24.965 You know how well he is about feelings, Like yeah, fine, 0:28:25.125 --> 0:28:26.605 you know, how does this affect you? 0:28:26.925 --> 0:28:27.485 And it's fine. 0:28:27.565 --> 0:28:29.645 I don't want to talk about my daughter's vagina and 0:28:30.005 --> 0:28:32.205 all my wife's in a room. I don't want that. 0:28:33.565 --> 0:28:35.685 So myself and John I had to do it. Mom 0:28:35.685 --> 0:28:36.965 and dad had to do it. We had to do 0:28:37.005 --> 0:28:40.525 it Tokay and Sophie and her husband had to do it. 0:28:40.605 --> 0:28:42.605 Then we had to do it together. Then we had 0:28:42.645 --> 0:28:46.205 to get all three couples together and do one big, 0:28:46.565 --> 0:28:49.165 happy family just in case. 0:28:49.245 --> 0:28:50.925 I don't know, what kinds of things did you talk 0:28:50.965 --> 0:28:52.725 about in the counseling, What do they want to know? 0:28:53.165 --> 0:28:55.605 How are we going to feel when the baby was 0:28:55.645 --> 0:28:59.165 born and having to hand it over, and how are 0:28:59.165 --> 0:29:01.485 we going to cope with the mental load. 0:29:01.325 --> 0:29:03.765 Of it all? But it was also it was also 0:29:03.885 --> 0:29:06.005 just seeing if you're a sane person to begin with. 0:29:05.965 --> 0:29:07.405 Because I was going to say, how can you answer 0:29:07.445 --> 0:29:08.805 that when you haven't done it? You don't know. 0:29:09.965 --> 0:29:13.285 But also it was a lot of questions on are 0:29:13.325 --> 0:29:16.085 they in a good mental state to be able to 0:29:16.165 --> 0:29:18.805 carry our pregnancy right? Yeah? 0:29:18.845 --> 0:29:22.285 And finding people that specialize in this was hard because 0:29:22.325 --> 0:29:22.885 you can just. 0:29:22.805 --> 0:29:25.645 Get a someone that does law for like. 0:29:25.565 --> 0:29:27.445 You know, when you buy a house or conveyance. It 0:29:27.565 --> 0:29:30.365 had to be a specialist in that field, and that 0:29:30.485 --> 0:29:30.765 was hard. 0:29:30.805 --> 0:29:33.685 We had counselors and lawyers from all over the country. 0:29:34.085 --> 0:29:36.725 So why did you need lawyers? Because of when the 0:29:36.765 --> 0:29:41.245 baby was born? Genetically it was Michelle and John O's, 0:29:41.765 --> 0:29:46.965 but it came out of the body of Jazzy and Sophie. 0:29:47.285 --> 0:29:49.125 So what does the law have to do. Did you 0:29:49.165 --> 0:29:51.325 have to adopt your own biological children? 0:29:51.645 --> 0:29:51.805 Yes? 0:29:52.365 --> 0:29:52.805 Much so. 0:29:53.405 --> 0:29:56.925 The legal agreement that we had to do as a 0:29:56.925 --> 0:30:01.605 part of the surrogacy process was based purely on finances, 0:30:02.045 --> 0:30:07.245 so that legally, if someone was out of pocket, we 0:30:07.285 --> 0:30:09.925 would have to make sure that they weren't. That was 0:30:10.005 --> 0:30:13.685 the extent of the legal agreement. There was no line 0:30:13.725 --> 0:30:18.085 in that that said just mean I must hand over Chase. 0:30:17.925 --> 0:30:20.125 Men, I can't run off with the baby. 0:30:21.285 --> 0:30:26.445 Children was stimulated in the legal agreement, right, so she 0:30:26.565 --> 0:30:28.485 could have taken the baby and there would have been 0:30:28.525 --> 0:30:30.805 no legal documents saying that that was not a bad thing. 0:30:30.845 --> 0:30:32.085 Who's on the birth certificate? 0:30:32.405 --> 0:30:36.525 Mum and Dad are on Hugo's birth certificate and Sophie 0:30:36.725 --> 0:30:41.005 and her husband Hilarious Spencer's, And so then I had 0:30:41.005 --> 0:30:44.885 to fill out hours and hours of paperwork. Two new 0:30:45.445 --> 0:30:49.445 they were born to have the birth certificate changed. 0:30:49.805 --> 0:30:53.525 That seems outrageous that your husband, Jazzy and Sophie's husband, 0:30:53.565 --> 0:30:55.765 he really didn't even want to go to the counseling appointments. 0:30:55.765 --> 0:30:59.685 Frankly austrange situation. Definitely. 0:31:00.205 --> 0:31:00.805 Yeah. Wow. 0:31:01.085 --> 0:31:03.085 I thought it was weird that there had to be 0:31:03.125 --> 0:31:07.085 a second parent on it. Yes, what's my husband with? 0:31:07.525 --> 0:31:08.285 Literally nothing? 0:31:08.525 --> 0:31:13.365 But I also understand why my dad's name was on it, 0:31:13.725 --> 0:31:17.205 because if the situation was reversed and you had an 0:31:17.205 --> 0:31:20.565 embryo that had been donated to you grown a baby, 0:31:20.805 --> 0:31:23.845 deliminate than fair. I understand why the wall. 0:31:23.925 --> 0:31:28.045 Yeah that way, So Jasi, what was pregnancy like the 0:31:28.125 --> 0:31:29.925 third time around at age fifty two? 0:31:30.605 --> 0:31:33.885 Well, I was pretty impressed that when the transfer happened, 0:31:33.965 --> 0:31:36.005 Michelle said, Mom, you're going to get three goes. I 0:31:36.045 --> 0:31:40.365 don't have an endless supply of embryos. Oh, no pressure. 0:31:40.885 --> 0:31:42.525 Three goes and that's it. You know, I'm going to 0:31:42.565 --> 0:31:44.765 hand Sofia. Then she's younger and it'll probably you know, 0:31:44.845 --> 0:31:46.885 work for her better than you, And I thought, oh gosh, 0:31:46.925 --> 0:31:47.445 no pressure. 0:31:47.885 --> 0:31:52.045 So anyway, Hugo was implanted. I drive home, my husband 0:31:52.085 --> 0:31:52.485 drive me home. 0:31:52.525 --> 0:31:54.765 I had my feet on the dashboard because I didn't 0:31:54.805 --> 0:31:55.645 want to risk anything. 0:31:55.685 --> 0:31:58.365 I'm sitting and I lay down. I wanted to fall out. 0:31:58.445 --> 0:32:00.405 I didn't want it to fall out. I laid down on. 0:32:00.365 --> 0:32:02.885 That couch Mia for three days. I did not move 0:32:03.525 --> 0:32:05.805 my legs up on the thing, and. 0:32:05.805 --> 0:32:07.605 Anyway it worked. 0:32:08.685 --> 0:32:09.805 I did wacked. 0:32:10.285 --> 0:32:12.205 Anyway, we went to the ultra sad and there's a 0:32:12.245 --> 0:32:13.005 little heartbeat off. 0:32:13.165 --> 0:32:14.285 Oh did it first? 0:32:14.285 --> 0:32:14.445 Guy? 0:32:14.485 --> 0:32:20.685 Michelle? Ha But pregnancy when mum was pregnant the first time, 0:32:20.725 --> 0:32:23.925 you were twenty one and twenty I was. I was 0:32:23.965 --> 0:32:25.285 a twenty one year old. 0:32:25.165 --> 0:32:28.445 And a twenty four with my pregnancies, and I'd sort 0:32:28.445 --> 0:32:30.485 of forgotten and I had easy pregnancies. 0:32:30.525 --> 0:32:33.165 I didn't have any morning sickness. I worked pretty much 0:32:33.165 --> 0:32:33.645 to the end. 0:32:33.765 --> 0:32:39.325 When I carried Michelle and then with Hugo, I was 0:32:39.365 --> 0:32:40.445 so psyching myself up. 0:32:40.445 --> 0:32:41.605 I thought, you know, this is not going to be 0:32:41.725 --> 0:32:43.125 as easy. I'm an old woman. 0:32:43.605 --> 0:32:47.165 But it wasn't as bad as I had psyched myself up. 0:32:47.765 --> 0:32:51.245 It was relatively easy. I felt very healthy. I think 0:32:51.285 --> 0:32:54.525 I only threw up once in the beginning. I felt 0:32:54.525 --> 0:32:58.605 a bit sea sick, definitely, but that was quite comforting 0:32:58.645 --> 0:33:01.405 because I thought, well, if I am feeling sick, then 0:33:01.445 --> 0:33:02.285 it's still happening. 0:33:02.405 --> 0:33:06.045 Yeah, what about you, Perry, were you like perimenopausal and 0:33:06.205 --> 0:33:07.405 pregnant at the same time. 0:33:07.565 --> 0:33:12.245 I commend women our carry their grandchildren as a surrogate. 0:33:12.605 --> 0:33:15.325 I was a rainy year old. My frozen shoulder. 0:33:15.125 --> 0:33:19.245 Deep frosted itself. My hip was very sore before that 0:33:19.605 --> 0:33:21.925 wasn't sore. I had beautiful, luscious hair. 0:33:22.485 --> 0:33:26.365 I hate. My skin was beautiful. I had all the hormones. 0:33:26.405 --> 0:33:27.325 I had all the estrogen. 0:33:28.005 --> 0:33:29.725 It's a different type of HRT. 0:33:30.005 --> 0:33:33.485 I guess it's a great hard it's a natural hate. 0:33:34.365 --> 0:33:38.085 I felt great, honestly I did, apart from having gestational diabetes, yeah, 0:33:38.125 --> 0:33:40.485 which they expected I would get. And that was a 0:33:40.485 --> 0:33:42.685 good thing because I put on thirty kilos when I 0:33:42.685 --> 0:33:45.285 carried Michelle. I put on ten kiloes when I carried 0:33:45.365 --> 0:33:47.245 Hugo because I was on a very strict diet. 0:33:48.085 --> 0:33:50.685 How did you feel different in your pregnancy and like 0:33:50.885 --> 0:33:52.485 how you felt towards the baby. 0:33:52.885 --> 0:33:57.405 I felt like babysitting for nine months, like you don't 0:33:57.445 --> 0:34:01.565 want this child anything to happen. I stopped putting retinoile 0:34:01.565 --> 0:34:04.205 on my face because you know, I'm not from pregnant women. 0:34:04.405 --> 0:34:06.325 I was careful with what I ate because I thought, 0:34:06.325 --> 0:34:08.645 oh no, that's too much sugar. And I definitely didn't 0:34:08.725 --> 0:34:12.165 drink alcohol, obviously, but I was on edge. I didn't 0:34:12.205 --> 0:34:14.485 hang out the washing. My husband would, and he was 0:34:14.525 --> 0:34:15.965 as just as protective as me. 0:34:16.685 --> 0:34:19.565 They're on hire alert the whole entire time. It's like 0:34:19.765 --> 0:34:21.165 baby sitting on steroids. 0:34:21.165 --> 0:34:25.485 It was Hugo had turned unbeknownst to me, and he 0:34:25.525 --> 0:34:29.165 didn't kick for about a day and a half and. 0:34:29.165 --> 0:34:30.445 I was getting more and more worried. 0:34:30.485 --> 0:34:32.365 And I was sitting next to my boss and she said, 0:34:32.485 --> 0:34:34.605 just go to the hospital. I said, I don't want 0:34:34.605 --> 0:34:36.365 to bother them. She said, just just go. And I 0:34:36.365 --> 0:34:38.325 didn't tell Michelle and John I because I didn't want 0:34:38.365 --> 0:34:42.005 to make them nervous and scared. I went in and 0:34:42.285 --> 0:34:45.085 they said, oh no, he's still you know, got a heartbeat, 0:34:45.205 --> 0:34:46.165 it's still kicking. 0:34:46.765 --> 0:34:49.085 He just turned. He had his back to me, and 0:34:49.125 --> 0:34:49.685 that was like. 0:34:49.885 --> 0:34:52.205 But until I got it checked out, I was just 0:34:52.365 --> 0:34:54.925 a nervous wreck, thinking, oh gosh, I hope everything's okay. 0:34:54.965 --> 0:34:57.685 And I perk my stomach and still nothing that I 0:34:57.685 --> 0:34:58.325 could feel. 0:34:58.685 --> 0:35:02.725 It was all the responsibility must have been really hectic. Yes, Michelle, 0:35:02.725 --> 0:35:05.085 How did it feel for you in terms of I 0:35:05.085 --> 0:35:09.645 imagine were you jealous a little bit? Yeah? 0:35:09.805 --> 0:35:13.285 I was. It's amazing how many emotions you can feel 0:35:13.365 --> 0:35:16.685 that contradict each other at the same time. So I 0:35:16.885 --> 0:35:21.405 was first and foremost so grateful that two women were 0:35:22.445 --> 0:35:26.725 putting their bodies through this or my benefit. I was 0:35:27.685 --> 0:35:31.965 so grateful that we're able to do this. But then 0:35:32.085 --> 0:35:35.885 every time I would visit or i'd be just sitting 0:35:35.965 --> 0:35:39.565 on the couch with JOHNO, I would just have this 0:35:39.805 --> 0:35:43.485 longing but I wish it was me, even though logically 0:35:43.605 --> 0:35:46.165 I know it can't be me. I cannot do this. 0:35:47.045 --> 0:35:52.085 I just was annoyed that it wasn't me. It wasn't 0:35:52.125 --> 0:35:57.685 necessarily like jealousy of them. It was just I wish 0:35:57.765 --> 0:35:59.045 I could do it myself. 0:35:59.125 --> 0:36:01.965 It must have been also quite exhausting to be that grateful. 0:36:02.845 --> 0:36:04.925 Was it like thank you no, but thank you no, 0:36:05.005 --> 0:36:07.245 but thank you so much. But I can't tell you 0:36:07.285 --> 0:36:08.445 how much I appreciate it. 0:36:08.525 --> 0:36:14.885 I don't think over barring them like much to dinner. No, 0:36:15.205 --> 0:36:15.725 she would. 0:36:15.765 --> 0:36:18.205 She would go over Sophie's house and help you put 0:36:18.245 --> 0:36:21.445 the kids, especially in the later stages of state. 0:36:21.645 --> 0:36:24.045 We were Yeah, a lot more helpful for Sophie. 0:36:24.245 --> 0:36:25.845 But I said to Michelle, I said, I'm fine, you 0:36:25.885 --> 0:36:27.885 don't need to do anything with me on fine. 0:36:28.125 --> 0:36:30.285 How old was Sophie's other kids so. 0:36:30.205 --> 0:36:34.805 Small at the time, I can't remember six, five and four? 0:36:35.005 --> 0:36:38.805 Oh wow, wow, yeah, And what did she tell them? 0:36:38.845 --> 0:36:40.445 I mean, not that they would really care or be 0:36:40.525 --> 0:36:41.165 that interested. 0:36:41.605 --> 0:36:43.565 The best thing about little kids is that you tell 0:36:43.605 --> 0:36:44.765 them something and they're. 0:36:44.565 --> 0:36:47.205 Just like, oh, they just accept you. It's excellent. 0:36:47.325 --> 0:36:51.005 It's just like, oh, mum's gonna grow Uncle John O 0:36:51.085 --> 0:36:54.245 and Ernie Misha's baby, and they were all like, okay, cool. 0:36:54.285 --> 0:36:57.285 They would call they would call her bumper, that's our cousin. 0:36:58.165 --> 0:36:59.525 Yeah right, yeah. 0:36:59.645 --> 0:37:02.525 Did you have to have some awkward conversations when it 0:37:02.605 --> 0:37:05.565 was like, oh, you're pregnant, huh, you know you're old? 0:37:05.765 --> 0:37:08.365 Or who's bait? Yeah, and then you had to go, oh, yeah, 0:37:08.365 --> 0:37:10.365 it's my daughter and her Husbut like, that's not a 0:37:10.405 --> 0:37:13.765 conversation that's easy to have at the supermarket with a stranger. 0:37:14.285 --> 0:37:17.445 Well, in the beginning, Michelle wasn't ready to tell anybody. 0:37:17.965 --> 0:37:19.765 And we've got a group of friends that we always 0:37:19.805 --> 0:37:25.205 go out with and lucky it was winter ish. So 0:37:25.325 --> 0:37:28.685 I'd rock up with these scarves and these big coats 0:37:28.765 --> 0:37:30.365 and I'd say, Michell, we have to tell. 0:37:30.525 --> 0:37:32.445 She said, no, you don't even know. I'm not ready 0:37:32.525 --> 0:37:35.085 yet because I don't know for whatever reason she wasn't 0:37:35.125 --> 0:37:35.685 ready to tell. 0:37:35.805 --> 0:37:38.125 Why weren't you, Michelle? I want to ask you about that. 0:37:38.725 --> 0:37:42.485 I was petrified that it wasn't going to work. Like 0:37:42.565 --> 0:37:45.085 we hadn't made it till the nineteen week mark. We 0:37:45.125 --> 0:37:46.325 hadn't read it till twenty four. 0:37:46.525 --> 0:37:50.245 Okay, so you're protecting yourself some protection mechanism. I get it. 0:37:50.285 --> 0:37:50.765 I get it. 0:37:50.845 --> 0:37:51.045 Well. 0:37:51.045 --> 0:37:54.405 I was pretty huge, and I was just waiting for 0:37:54.445 --> 0:37:56.925 one of my friends to say something, and I didn't 0:37:56.965 --> 0:37:59.405 know how I was going to explain it away. So 0:37:59.645 --> 0:38:03.085 I'd be sitting there, sweating in the scarfs and jackets and. 0:38:03.005 --> 0:38:05.165 They don't it's hot. Why can't you take no? No, 0:38:05.245 --> 0:38:05.845 I feel cold? 0:38:05.845 --> 0:38:09.525 I feel cold maywhile they were looking at me and going, oh, 0:38:09.605 --> 0:38:12.645 menopause is not treating that woman right at it. He's 0:38:12.685 --> 0:38:14.565 got hot blushes, she's got a big. 0:38:14.365 --> 0:38:15.765 Gut weight gain, look at her. 0:38:15.885 --> 0:38:19.725 Wait game. Yeah it was dad. So one day they 0:38:19.765 --> 0:38:22.565 decided to tell their friends because Michelle said okay, you 0:38:22.605 --> 0:38:25.045 can tell them now. I wasn't there. No, no, you 0:38:25.045 --> 0:38:25.405 weren't there. 0:38:25.605 --> 0:38:28.365 What happened when you told your friends? We were sitting at. 0:38:28.285 --> 0:38:30.645 Dinner and druggons. My husband said, look, everyone, I need 0:38:30.685 --> 0:38:34.165 your attention. And then they go, well, we're having a baby. 0:38:34.205 --> 0:38:38.085 Jesse's having a baby. She's pregnant. They went what like 0:38:38.165 --> 0:38:40.845 it was like a disgust, almost like what what's wrong 0:38:40.885 --> 0:38:41.325 with you? 0:38:41.525 --> 0:38:42.605 You old people doing? 0:38:42.805 --> 0:38:43.005 Eh? 0:38:43.805 --> 0:38:47.165 Yeah, pretty much that and then here goes but it's 0:38:47.205 --> 0:38:51.645 not my baby, and then they went, oh. 0:38:50.365 --> 0:38:50.525 You. 0:38:54.365 --> 0:38:56.565 That's so funny. He sounds excellent. 0:38:57.685 --> 0:39:00.725 So yeah, we told them, but a vivid memory that 0:39:00.805 --> 0:39:03.805 I have. We had to go through the hospital, through 0:39:03.805 --> 0:39:07.325 the specialists there, and Michelle couldn't get out of work 0:39:07.365 --> 0:39:09.125 that day, so it was just JOHNO when I went 0:39:09.685 --> 0:39:11.205 and I said, You're like, can we hold hands when 0:39:11.205 --> 0:39:11.725 we go in? 0:39:13.845 --> 0:39:15.325 Are you're such a trial? I love it? 0:39:15.485 --> 0:39:18.125 There were people looking at what are you doing with her? 0:39:18.405 --> 0:39:19.565 Like she's old? 0:39:20.405 --> 0:39:22.445 Even when I went shopping, people would look at me up. 0:39:22.565 --> 0:39:26.005 I could see they do a double take, the calculations 0:39:26.085 --> 0:39:27.765 like you look too old. 0:39:28.165 --> 0:39:31.605 Yes, Jonathan could have just gone, oh, don't worry, it's 0:39:31.645 --> 0:39:32.805 just my mother in law. 0:39:34.725 --> 0:39:37.285 Pretty much. Yeah, you wouldn't have been lying either. 0:39:40.045 --> 0:39:42.765 After this break, are you ready for it? Jasmina goes 0:39:42.805 --> 0:39:49.005 into labor and it's a very funny the two different 0:39:49.045 --> 0:39:52.765 births because you know, Sophie got pregnant the first goal 0:39:52.765 --> 0:39:55.165 of IVF as well, which you weren't expecting. So there 0:39:55.245 --> 0:39:58.245 was seven weeks between you, right between your delivery dates. 0:39:59.165 --> 0:40:03.045 You had Hugo first and you had him by C section. 0:40:03.725 --> 0:40:06.205 What was your experience of the birth, Mish? What was 0:40:06.205 --> 0:40:06.965 that like for you? 0:40:07.925 --> 0:40:12.845 I was petrified. I was so nervous, like just hoping 0:40:12.885 --> 0:40:17.205 that everything would turn out okay. I was scared for 0:40:17.485 --> 0:40:22.405 mum having you know, major abdominal surgery. I was, you know, 0:40:22.845 --> 0:40:26.925 very hopeful that the baby would come out alive. And 0:40:26.965 --> 0:40:30.165 so there's videos of me just like pacing up and 0:40:30.205 --> 0:40:33.685 down the corridor and jumping and doing dancers, just being 0:40:33.765 --> 0:40:36.845 like okay, I'm ready, I'm ready, Like come on. I 0:40:36.925 --> 0:40:40.485 was very nervous and I don't really experience intense emotions 0:40:40.565 --> 0:40:43.285 like that, and like, I was very nervous. 0:40:43.685 --> 0:40:45.445 How did you both feel when the baby came out? 0:40:45.485 --> 0:40:46.125 What was that Like? 0:40:46.605 --> 0:40:49.005 It is so real and I think it is for 0:40:49.205 --> 0:40:52.805 so many people. Just as soon as they're here, you're 0:40:52.885 --> 0:40:56.325 kind of like, you're here. Oh my goodness, there's a 0:40:56.365 --> 0:41:00.565 person in that stomach, and now you're mine. Like I 0:41:00.685 --> 0:41:06.605 had shocked, I was relieved that he was well. There 0:41:06.645 --> 0:41:10.245 was just so much joy. I was like, I was like, 0:41:10.285 --> 0:41:13.965 you're finally here. This is real. I cannot believe it. 0:41:13.965 --> 0:41:15.165 It was a really nice moment. 0:41:15.725 --> 0:41:18.605 Jesse, how did you feel towards the baby? And I 0:41:18.605 --> 0:41:20.165 think I know what you're going to say. Compared to 0:41:20.245 --> 0:41:23.445 when you met your own children for the first time. 0:41:23.845 --> 0:41:27.565 I felt like a grandmother. I never felt like he 0:41:27.765 --> 0:41:31.165 was mine, not even for a second. And I was 0:41:31.245 --> 0:41:34.885 so honored and proud that I could do this. I 0:41:35.005 --> 0:41:39.325 was healthy enough because there's apart from the psychological testing 0:41:39.325 --> 0:41:42.365 and factors, you have to be physically healthy because the 0:41:42.405 --> 0:41:46.005 doctors aren't going to risk your health and life by 0:41:46.085 --> 0:41:48.245 making you go through this. It was such an honor 0:41:48.285 --> 0:41:51.525 and privilege in just watching them, the joy and the 0:41:51.565 --> 0:41:56.205 tears of happiness, and you know, holding Hugo was just 0:41:56.405 --> 0:41:58.605 the best thing and I'll never never forget that, and 0:41:58.645 --> 0:42:00.245 I was so lucky to be part of that. 0:42:00.685 --> 0:42:02.965 Yeah, a lot of mums try and weasel their way 0:42:03.005 --> 0:42:05.765 into the delivery room and someone took it. 0:42:05.845 --> 0:42:09.805 Now, it's funny you say that I tried, Well, this 0:42:09.885 --> 0:42:10.605 is what you have to do. 0:42:11.805 --> 0:42:12.365 What you've got to do. 0:42:12.485 --> 0:42:15.685 I didn't think of offering to actually carry the baby. 0:42:16.285 --> 0:42:18.405 That will be my plan for grandchild number two. 0:42:18.685 --> 0:42:19.245 You do that. 0:42:19.765 --> 0:42:23.045 It's interesting, Mish. I've watched some of the footage of 0:42:23.165 --> 0:42:26.045 you for the birth of Hugo and then for the 0:42:26.045 --> 0:42:29.445 birth the Spencer five weeks later, and Sophie, your sister 0:42:29.485 --> 0:42:31.565 in law, gave birth vaginally, and you were there with 0:42:31.645 --> 0:42:34.645 John O. That was very funny to watch because he 0:42:34.765 --> 0:42:38.045 was actually, that's his sister's vagina down there that his 0:42:38.285 --> 0:42:42.845 son's coming out of. And he tries trying not to 0:42:42.885 --> 0:42:47.525 look at one point, so cool, And what did Sophie 0:42:47.605 --> 0:42:49.125 say when he was trying not to look. 0:42:49.405 --> 0:42:52.405 Sophie was just like, we've come this far. Just it 0:42:52.445 --> 0:42:53.445 doesn't matter anymore. 0:42:53.525 --> 0:42:58.605 John, So I sort of do this awkward shuffle and 0:42:58.685 --> 0:43:01.485 back in and then sort of cut the cord over here. 0:43:01.525 --> 0:43:04.045 And by that stage, Sophie is there just yelling at 0:43:04.045 --> 0:43:05.645 me saying I don't. 0:43:05.445 --> 0:43:10.125 Care, and Johnnah was still like, nah, I can't. 0:43:09.965 --> 0:43:13.165 Do it, I can't. He looks very funny that. But 0:43:13.245 --> 0:43:15.605 what I noticed most was the difference in you and 0:43:16.485 --> 0:43:19.005 when you were watching Hugo be born versus when you're 0:43:19.005 --> 0:43:21.565 watching Spencer be born. And I know that one was 0:43:21.845 --> 0:43:24.005 an operating room setting and it was surgery and it 0:43:24.165 --> 0:43:29.765 was different, but you almost seem very understandably a little 0:43:29.765 --> 0:43:33.445 bit blank is the wrong word, but detached, like you're 0:43:33.445 --> 0:43:36.205 still protecting yourself, like you still can't quite believe it 0:43:36.285 --> 0:43:40.085 with Hugo the first time, but with Spencer, your whole 0:43:40.125 --> 0:43:41.365 face is cracked open. 0:43:41.885 --> 0:43:46.325 I think the experience before Hugo, yes, with such a 0:43:46.685 --> 0:43:51.365 traumatic bad Yeah, that that's the only thing I have 0:43:51.445 --> 0:43:54.805 to go by, and so I'm just trying to be 0:43:54.965 --> 0:44:00.005 cautious but still be excited. And then when Hugo arrived, 0:44:00.005 --> 0:44:02.525 it was disbelief that this is finally real. 0:44:03.125 --> 0:44:04.965 I could see that on your face because also the 0:44:05.045 --> 0:44:07.605 last time you were in an operating theater you were 0:44:07.605 --> 0:44:13.325 bleeding out. Yeah, so that must have been incredibly overwhelming 0:44:13.405 --> 0:44:17.205 and traumatic and triggering and all of the things and beautiful. 0:44:17.245 --> 0:44:20.965 And I didn't focus on any of that though. Yeah, 0:44:21.045 --> 0:44:24.125 the day he was born, I didn't think about any 0:44:24.165 --> 0:44:28.365 of that past trauma. I just thought I'm so excited 0:44:28.405 --> 0:44:31.165 to meet him. I really hope it goes well. I 0:44:31.205 --> 0:44:34.045 didn't even think, oh is this the theater that I 0:44:34.205 --> 0:44:36.365 bled out in? Like, I didn't even think about any 0:44:36.405 --> 0:44:36.605 of that. 0:44:36.725 --> 0:44:38.245 Did you feel a bit like Ralph was in the 0:44:38.325 --> 0:44:39.045 room somewhere? 0:44:39.565 --> 0:44:44.405 Yeah? Yeah, I always think that, you know, he's around 0:44:44.485 --> 0:44:45.445 watching his brothers. 0:44:45.765 --> 0:44:46.085 Yeah. 0:44:46.125 --> 0:44:50.805 Sometimes I like let myself think, oh, he'd be three now, 0:44:50.965 --> 0:44:54.605 like the boys. Imagine having a toddler and twins or whatever. 0:44:55.285 --> 0:44:56.405 That would be insane. 0:44:56.565 --> 0:44:58.885 It's like a little ghost baby. He'll always be there. 0:44:59.005 --> 0:45:01.325 He'll always be a little ghost baby. I still think 0:45:01.925 --> 0:45:05.565 my daughter would be like twenty five, and I still 0:45:05.605 --> 0:45:09.285 think about that sometimes. What you know, it's comforting though now, 0:45:10.005 --> 0:45:14.645 Like it's not for me. It's not a deep sadness, 0:45:14.885 --> 0:45:17.965 Like I like thinking of what she would maybe be like, you. 0:45:17.925 --> 0:45:20.645 Know, yeah, like I make a cake for his birthday 0:45:20.685 --> 0:45:21.165 every year. 0:45:21.725 --> 0:45:26.925 That's beautiful. Yeah yeah. Two babies at home twins essentially 0:45:27.285 --> 0:45:30.645 like what five weeks apart? Yeah yeah, when you're out 0:45:30.885 --> 0:45:34.565 with two babies, do you just say they're twins? I mean, 0:45:34.645 --> 0:45:35.565 it's a long story. 0:45:35.605 --> 0:45:38.885 Otherwise, I don't want to trauma dump on other people. Well, actually, 0:45:38.925 --> 0:45:40.965 if they're not, and this is my story. 0:45:41.085 --> 0:45:43.925 And they're like, oh, I've just been polite. 0:45:46.165 --> 0:45:50.885 They're twins to everyone. Yeah, even yeah. The only time 0:45:50.925 --> 0:45:53.445 I ever tell the story is the pharmacists. The other 0:45:53.525 --> 0:45:56.005 day I had to pick up medication for them both, 0:45:56.045 --> 0:45:59.125 and he was just like, their scripts have different birthdays, 0:45:59.245 --> 0:46:02.965 and I was like, oh, yeah. 0:46:01.805 --> 0:46:02.445 Very observant. 0:46:02.485 --> 0:46:07.565 Pharmacists put their names down for childcare, and the childcare 0:46:07.605 --> 0:46:10.165 person rang them and said, look, you probably tired and 0:46:10.365 --> 0:46:11.325 haven't slept much. 0:46:11.565 --> 0:46:12.645 Given the wrong days. 0:46:13.365 --> 0:46:16.005 They seem to be born in different years. How's that? Yeah? 0:46:16.045 --> 0:46:17.725 Everyone on the street, oh twins. 0:46:17.845 --> 0:46:20.845 Yeah, yeah, December and January twenty two and twenty two 0:46:21.165 --> 0:46:21.805 so different. 0:46:21.925 --> 0:46:24.925 There was Hugo oh yeah, a big, big baby, and 0:46:24.965 --> 0:46:28.805 there was Spencer, this tiny little newborn, and they go, twins. 0:46:28.805 --> 0:46:32.765 Did you go, yeah, can look the same? They didn't say, 0:46:32.805 --> 0:46:35.925 now are they identical? Do they look identical? 0:46:36.085 --> 0:46:38.725 No? A lot of. 0:46:38.605 --> 0:46:42.005 People struggle with the idea of that there are fraternal 0:46:42.045 --> 0:46:44.405 twins that exist, and twins come walk different. 0:46:44.605 --> 0:46:46.765 So many even though they're not twins. 0:46:46.845 --> 0:46:48.685 I still think it's interesting that people don't. 0:46:50.605 --> 0:46:54.365 Ny and the boys, what stories do you tell them? 0:46:54.445 --> 0:46:56.725 I mean, you guys have no secrets. You're talking to me. 0:46:56.845 --> 0:46:58.925 It's not like it's like, oh, don't mention it. 0:46:59.165 --> 0:47:02.565 They're still quite young, so they don't really understand anything 0:47:02.765 --> 0:47:03.085 or care. 0:47:03.245 --> 0:47:03.565 Really. 0:47:03.885 --> 0:47:06.325 There's a photo of Ralph in their nursery and I 0:47:06.525 --> 0:47:09.805 point to him and I'm like, that's your brother. Have 0:47:10.205 --> 0:47:15.085 a picture on our TV screen. That's a photo of me, John, 0:47:15.085 --> 0:47:18.925 my mum and Sophie while they were both pregnant, and 0:47:19.005 --> 0:47:21.205 I just point to the tummies and I'm like, that's 0:47:21.245 --> 0:47:25.245 you in there. That's like you and those tummies. And 0:47:25.325 --> 0:47:31.205 so hopefully they'll always just know and then when it 0:47:31.245 --> 0:47:35.285 comes to explaining why that happened, it won't be a 0:47:35.365 --> 0:47:37.805 shock later on in their life. 0:47:37.885 --> 0:47:39.565 I was thinking about you guys, and I was just 0:47:39.605 --> 0:47:43.125 thinking about you know, when you sat down and you're like, oh, 0:47:43.765 --> 0:47:46.045 it's not even a big deal. It's like it's a nothing. 0:47:46.285 --> 0:47:50.045 And I imagine at the time it was so huge 0:47:50.285 --> 0:47:53.245 and the decision and how it's going to go and 0:47:54.845 --> 0:47:58.045 explaining to people. But it's a little bit like, you know, 0:47:58.085 --> 0:47:59.925 when you're pregnant, you think so much about the birth 0:47:59.965 --> 0:48:02.605 and then that's just a day. You know, it's like, 0:48:02.645 --> 0:48:05.685 how the baby's got here? Did they come vaginally? Did 0:48:05.685 --> 0:48:08.525 they come cesarean? How did they It doesn't really matter. 0:48:08.525 --> 0:48:12.965 They're your kids and your grandsons. Is that how you feel? 0:48:13.565 --> 0:48:16.245 That's exactly how I feel. Like that's a distant memory. 0:48:16.285 --> 0:48:19.805 I can't even remember, like the semantics that they're here 0:48:20.045 --> 0:48:21.605 and this is this is what matters. 0:48:22.445 --> 0:48:26.165 Some people have asked me how was it hard to 0:48:26.245 --> 0:48:30.405 bond with them because you didn't carry them? And I 0:48:30.525 --> 0:48:34.365 just respond with do you ask like the second parent 0:48:34.485 --> 0:48:37.525 in any but like, for example, dads do you ask dads? 0:48:37.525 --> 0:48:38.845 Do you find it hard to bond? 0:48:38.925 --> 0:48:39.845 So true? 0:48:40.725 --> 0:48:43.685 Like, no, I always knew that this was my baby. Yeah, 0:48:43.725 --> 0:48:45.925 wed the whole time preparing for this. It was a 0:48:45.965 --> 0:48:49.365 long journey to get to this. Yes, I have bonded 0:48:49.445 --> 0:48:50.925 quite easily with them. 0:48:51.325 --> 0:48:55.285 Yeah, I'm so happy for your beautiful family. What are 0:48:55.285 --> 0:48:56.965 they like? Do they have different personalities? 0:48:57.365 --> 0:49:01.645 Completely different? They are so much fun. I love toddlers. 0:49:02.525 --> 0:49:06.085 It's really hard to take both of them out. Like 0:49:06.165 --> 0:49:08.845 sometimes I'll just be like, oh, if I only had one, 0:49:08.885 --> 0:49:10.005 this would be so much easier. 0:49:13.485 --> 0:49:14.405 Should give one back. 0:49:14.565 --> 0:49:19.805 Yeah, Spencer is crazy. He runs everywhere. He's so loud, 0:49:20.005 --> 0:49:23.245 and he'll get in their full of personality. Hugo is 0:49:23.285 --> 0:49:26.965 so chill. He loves just sitting there playing with things. 0:49:27.685 --> 0:49:28.925 He's strawing. 0:49:29.885 --> 0:49:32.685 They are here, they are right and jazzy. People ask 0:49:32.725 --> 0:49:35.285 me this all the time. How's being a grandmar different 0:49:35.405 --> 0:49:36.165 to being a mum? 0:49:36.525 --> 0:49:39.965 Oh so different, so so different. The love you have 0:49:40.165 --> 0:49:40.685 is different. 0:49:42.085 --> 0:49:44.365 And I'm trying not to be over bearing. That's just 0:49:44.485 --> 0:49:47.605 me anyway. But I'm so proud of them. I love 0:49:47.645 --> 0:49:49.685 them with my heart and soul. I would do anything, 0:49:49.805 --> 0:49:51.805 anything for them. I love spending time with them, no 0:49:51.885 --> 0:49:53.565 matter how tired you are, me what kind of a 0:49:53.605 --> 0:49:56.325 week you've had. As grandkids walk in the door, you 0:49:56.365 --> 0:49:59.725 forget everything and you focus on them. And I intend 0:49:59.765 --> 0:50:02.085 on being a big part of their lives. I hope, 0:50:02.525 --> 0:50:04.565 I hope that the kids allow me to still and 0:50:04.765 --> 0:50:06.005 they will. They're not moving anywhere. 0:50:06.125 --> 0:50:09.005 Surely you have some extra privileges. I mean, God, if 0:50:09.005 --> 0:50:11.645 you can't, is that as a little bit of a guilt, Like, hey, 0:50:11.885 --> 0:50:14.845 remember that time I got cut in half? You could 0:50:14.845 --> 0:50:15.885 have a baby, remember that. 0:50:16.245 --> 0:50:17.525 Yeah, I'm going to play that card. 0:50:17.605 --> 0:50:19.245 Yeah, here's my scar. Look at this scar. 0:50:20.125 --> 0:50:23.965 I've never had this before. You were saying, like, because 0:50:24.005 --> 0:50:25.845 you don't have to like discipline them, and it's not 0:50:27.285 --> 0:50:29.405 It's this love and playfulness. 0:50:29.485 --> 0:50:32.685 Yeah, mish, it's all of the same love that you 0:50:32.765 --> 0:50:35.645 have for your children, but none of the overwhelmings. Yeah, 0:50:35.685 --> 0:50:39.325 and not one bit of mental load. It's pure joy, Yes, 0:50:39.605 --> 0:50:39.965 it is. 0:50:40.045 --> 0:50:43.005 I'm also so lucky that I have so much support 0:50:43.645 --> 0:50:47.565 close by, like johnno is the best, Like I have 0:50:47.845 --> 0:50:50.805 my parents, my in laws, like there is so much help. 0:50:51.205 --> 0:50:55.605 And I totally understand how this time in people's lives 0:50:55.605 --> 0:50:59.925 could be so overwhelming and so exhausting. But I'm so 0:51:00.045 --> 0:51:03.445 lucky that there are so many hands to help because 0:51:03.565 --> 0:51:08.045 I have been able to enjoy this part. Because of that, 0:51:08.405 --> 0:51:11.125 I qualified for the attorney to leave Mia. I took 0:51:11.205 --> 0:51:12.965 maternity leave, that's excellent. 0:51:13.085 --> 0:51:15.525 And then I took twelve months of my own age 0:51:15.645 --> 0:51:19.805 and we helped Sophie, her mother and Sharon was there. 0:51:19.845 --> 0:51:22.165 We were all there like like on a rotating roster. 0:51:23.765 --> 0:51:26.525 You guys what a family. I mean. They say it 0:51:26.565 --> 0:51:29.405 takes a village, because it does, but not everyone's lucky 0:51:29.485 --> 0:51:32.485 enough to have a village. And the lengths that you 0:51:33.125 --> 0:51:36.445 have all gone for each other and the love that's there. 0:51:38.285 --> 0:51:41.805 Ralph would be very proud. Yeah, he did good things 0:51:41.925 --> 0:51:42.885 in his short time. 0:51:43.125 --> 0:51:44.605 Yeah, yeah, we're lucky we can. 0:51:44.805 --> 0:51:47.405 Science has progressed and we're able to do this sort 0:51:47.405 --> 0:51:47.965 of stuff. 0:51:51.525 --> 0:51:53.325 Now, if that didn't put a smile on your dial, 0:51:53.565 --> 0:51:56.365 I don't know what will. Because they're just to hoot 0:51:56.485 --> 0:52:02.525 those two. It's so funny. Jasmina is just I just 0:52:02.725 --> 0:52:05.525 and the tricks that her husband played on their friends, 0:52:05.845 --> 0:52:09.645 the whole story just filled me with joy. In interesting, 0:52:09.645 --> 0:52:14.005 there's been some conversations about the census coming up next 0:52:14.085 --> 0:52:15.645 year or the year after and what questions are going 0:52:15.685 --> 0:52:18.605 to be on the census and what makes a family 0:52:18.725 --> 0:52:22.605 and how the makeup of a family has really changed 0:52:22.645 --> 0:52:25.565 so much and people are making their own families in 0:52:25.605 --> 0:52:28.685 all different ways. And you know, they say it takes 0:52:28.725 --> 0:52:32.085 a village to raise a child, but as we just discovered, 0:52:32.125 --> 0:52:34.845 sometimes it takes a village to actually make a child. 0:52:35.165 --> 0:52:40.245 It's not always simple. And that question, when you ask 0:52:40.325 --> 0:52:44.165 a woman how many children she has, you'll get a 0:52:44.285 --> 0:52:47.325 very different answer if she has any, but even if 0:52:47.365 --> 0:52:50.085 she doesn't to if you ask how many times a 0:52:50.125 --> 0:52:55.125 woman's been pregnant, And to me, that tells a story 0:52:55.165 --> 0:52:59.485 that's so often invisible and when people think about their families. 0:52:59.525 --> 0:53:01.525 It's not just the people who are here, it's also 0:53:01.645 --> 0:53:04.845 the people who didn't get to be here, or who 0:53:04.845 --> 0:53:08.365 didn't get to stay here, who were gone too soon, 0:53:08.765 --> 0:53:12.445 or who we never got to know. And I just 0:53:12.645 --> 0:53:16.125 love the work around the way that the love that 0:53:16.205 --> 0:53:19.325 a mother had for her child, and a sister in 0:53:19.405 --> 0:53:23.005 law had for a woman who'd become so close to 0:53:23.045 --> 0:53:25.445 her and her friend, and everyone just got on with it. 0:53:26.085 --> 0:53:26.805 I just love it. 0:53:27.565 --> 0:53:30.085 I'd love to be pregnant again if my daughter needs 0:53:30.125 --> 0:53:33.165 a uterus, I've still got one, or my daughter in law, Jesse, 0:53:33.245 --> 0:53:36.125 are you listening, she'd love that. Well, she actually doesn't 0:53:36.165 --> 0:53:39.285 like being pregnant, so I've always wanted to be surrogate. 0:53:39.725 --> 0:53:43.245 I'm happy to donate my uterus, So, Jesse, if you 0:53:43.285 --> 0:53:45.605 want to just like get on with things and not 0:53:45.685 --> 0:53:48.085 have morning sickness and stuff, I'll take on for the 0:53:48.125 --> 0:53:51.085 team and carry your next baby. Or would that be weird? 0:53:51.205 --> 0:53:56.365 Oh No, not weird at all. Anyway. We love stories 0:53:56.405 --> 0:54:00.285 about different kinds of shaped families on no Filter. If 0:54:00.285 --> 0:54:02.845 you have one, we'd love to hear about it, and 0:54:02.885 --> 0:54:04.765 I will put a link in the show notes to 0:54:04.805 --> 0:54:07.885 some of the other beautiful stories like this that we 0:54:08.005 --> 0:54:11.285 have been proud to present. The executive producer of No 0:54:11.405 --> 0:54:14.045 Filter is Naima Brown and she's made her own little 0:54:14.045 --> 0:54:17.605 family with her husband and her dog up the North Coast. 0:54:18.245 --> 0:54:22.205 Sound production is by Tom Lyon. Ra I always do 0:54:22.405 --> 0:54:25.325 rah for Tom. He likes his family life just like 0:54:25.445 --> 0:54:30.605 his coffee. Unconventional. Oh clickbait, Tom. I'm your host, MEA 0:54:30.685 --> 0:54:34.525 Friedman and yeah, I would really be a sarrogate. Bring it, 0:54:34.605 --> 0:54:35.085 bring it on.