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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mia podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: And I thought I could carry a baby for them.

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Speaker 2: He said, don't be ridiculous. Do you know how old

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Speaker 2: you are? He can't do that. I said, I can.

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Speaker 2: I can anyway, And I approached Michelle. I said, Michelle,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do this for you.

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Speaker 1: From Mamma Maya. I'm Maya Friedman and you're listening to

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Speaker 1: No Filter right now. On the south coast of New

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Speaker 1: South Wales, there are two gorgeous little boys. They're around

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Speaker 1: a year and a half old, and they're called Hugo

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Speaker 1: and Spencer. Hugo loves washing dishes and vacuuming, and he

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Speaker 1: loves birds, and he also loves feeding ducks. Spencer, meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: is a bit what a Usain Bolt in the making,

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Speaker 1: and he's obsessed with running, and he'll eat nothing but

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Speaker 1: rice cakes if he's allowed to, and he'll always tell

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Speaker 1: you if he spots a circle. It's very important. Hugo

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Speaker 1: and Spencer live with their very loving parents, Michelle and Johno,

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Speaker 1: and they're surrounded by a whole gaggle of extended family,

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Speaker 1: including their grandmother Jasmina and their auntie Sophie. Remember their names,

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Speaker 1: They're important. None of this sounds particularly remarkable, right, I

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Speaker 1: know that's probably what you're thinking. But how Hugo and

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Speaker 1: Spencer came to be in the world is a very

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Speaker 1: unique and unusual story. You see, their grandmother Jasmina and

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Speaker 1: their auntie Sophie were also actually their surrogate mothers. This

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Speaker 1: is a story of loss because Michelle did try to

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Speaker 1: carry her babies herself, and Hugo and Spencer have a

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Speaker 1: big brother named Ralph, who you'll hear about. But it

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Speaker 1: is also a story of great sacrifice and generosity, of silliness,

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Speaker 1: of motherhood, of grandmotherhood. Really, this is a love story

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Speaker 1: like no other I've heard before. And if you can

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Speaker 1: hear the smile in my voice, it's because I am

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Speaker 1: just beaming remembering how much I loved this conversation. And

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of this love story, it's Michelle and

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Speaker 1: her husband John O, high school friends who found each

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Speaker 1: other years later, fell in love and wanted to start

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Speaker 1: a family. Did you guys ever talk about having kids?

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Speaker 1: Like early on, like, what are we going to call

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Speaker 1: our babies? How many kids do you want?

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Speaker 2: Yes. As a relationship progressed, we did talk about what

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Speaker 2: we saw in our future, and kids were definitely a

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Speaker 2: part of that. We always wanted like a bigger family

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Speaker 2: like John, I wanted four kids. I was fine with whatever.

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Speaker 2: I didn't mind. I thought we'd see how we went,

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Speaker 2: and so yeah, they were definitely always a definite thing

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Speaker 2: that we were doing in our life together.

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Speaker 1: You'd had a clue that maybe pregnancy wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: be so easy for you. What was your first hint

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Speaker 1: that fertility could be a struggle.

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Speaker 2: My first hint was my first period. When that came,

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Speaker 2: it came along with excruciating pain. So from pretty much

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Speaker 2: day dot I would be in the fetal position with

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Speaker 2: the amount of pain that I had, and that was

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Speaker 2: consistent up until I started taking medication that stopped my

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Speaker 2: period altogether. And they were the best years of my

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Speaker 2: life because I experienced no pain then because I just

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Speaker 2: didn't have a period.

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Speaker 1: As a doctor, I would diagnose, endo, did you have endometriosis?

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Speaker 2: So it was because I was so young, they suspected

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Speaker 2: it was endometriosis, but they didn't want to do a

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Speaker 2: certain on me at that age, and so I just

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Speaker 2: went along with it. They said it's probably endo. Just

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Speaker 2: take the pill, don't take the sugar tablets, and you

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Speaker 2: won't get a period, and you might not experience pain,

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Speaker 2: which at the time I was like, great, that's fine.

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Speaker 2: Like I didn't even think about future repercussions of that.

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Speaker 2: I just thought, right now, this is stopping all my pain,

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Speaker 2: so this is great. When I finally came off of them,

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Speaker 2: the pain came back straight away. I would be like

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Speaker 2: in bed at two am, like on all fours, rocking

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Speaker 2: from side to side like I was about to give birth.

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Speaker 2: I had alarms going off on my phone all the

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Speaker 2: time to remind me to take painkillers.

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Speaker 1: That sounds horrific, Jasmina, did you have difficult periods? Did

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Speaker 1: you have any experience in dealing with this.

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Speaker 3: In the beginning, I thought, why is she making such

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Speaker 3: a big deal. It is a bit uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Drama queen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, drama queen exactly because I was a bit tough

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Speaker 2: love of a mum.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I saw that she was actually sweating with the pain

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Speaker 3: that she was experiencing. I thought, hang on a minute,

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Speaker 3: this is not right. And then we did go to specialists.

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Speaker 3: We did get ultrasounds.

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Speaker 2: We got all the.

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Speaker 3: Tests, and they didn't really give us any indication of

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Speaker 3: what she would go through when she decided to have

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Speaker 3: a family. Nobody actually envisaged that or told us or

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Speaker 3: warned us about it.

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Speaker 2: It was always suspected ENDO. And when I finally had

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Speaker 2: an operation, they said, yeah, they confirmed it was endo.

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Speaker 2: But then there was a comment made saying that, oh,

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Speaker 2: your uterus is a bit small. I was like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: we didn't comment, Yeah, that's fine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like how did you find out that you

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Speaker 1: had a unicorn uterus?

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Speaker 2: It wasn't until I went to see another specialist who

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Speaker 2: did another laparoscopy and said that they found this thing

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Speaker 2: that comes up on ultrasounds, and people thought it was

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Speaker 2: an endometrioma, so just a sack filled with blood. Always

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Speaker 2: assumed it was that. Yeah, but it was actually a

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Speaker 2: part of my uters that didn't quite meet the other

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Speaker 2: half of it when I was forming as a fetus.

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Speaker 2: So my uterus was coming together as a fetus, and

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Speaker 2: this side was late to the party and kind of

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Speaker 2: attached itself awkwardly. And that was trying to menstrum eight.

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Speaker 2: Every time I had a period, had nowhere to go

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Speaker 2: and so my body was cramping trying to get it

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Speaker 2: out but it wasn't working.

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Speaker 1: Wow, could you just get it removed? Yeah? I did,

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Speaker 1: and that stopped the pain.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think all those years, how cranky I am

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Speaker 3: that she suffered with that when it was such an

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Speaker 3: easy fix. So you've got to go to the right doctor.

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Speaker 1: You had started an IVF fund for yourself before you

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Speaker 1: even met or No, so you must have had a

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Speaker 1: clue that it was going to be difficult because of

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Speaker 1: all of this, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I did. I knew that the level of pain that

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Speaker 2: I was experiencing was not normal. Yeah, that I wanted

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Speaker 2: to eventually have kids. I knew that IVF was expensive,

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Speaker 2: and so it wasn't necessarily I was saving money for IVF.

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Speaker 2: I was just saving money and I had a lot

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Speaker 2: of money in a savings account and I would just

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Speaker 2: refer to it as my IVF fund. I think I

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Speaker 2: ended up using it to go on a holiday.

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Speaker 1: But tour if that wouldn't have even.

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Speaker 2: Covered the expense issue.

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Speaker 1: That's so true. You eventually did use IVF when you

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Speaker 1: and John I decided you were going to try and

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Speaker 1: start a family. What was your IVF experience like, how

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Speaker 1: did it go.

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Speaker 2: My iv experience for me was quite pleasant. I didn't

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Speaker 2: really experience a lot of the adverse effects of the hormones.

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Speaker 2: I didn't mind injecting myself. That wasn't a big deal.

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Speaker 2: Collection wasn't that painful for me. It was all you

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Speaker 2: endured so much pain throughout your life that this was

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Speaker 2: just a number just to blease.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you did feel pregnant. Was it your first go

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Speaker 1: at IVF?

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Speaker 2: No, it was my We did two rounds of IVF.

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Speaker 2: First round, we made two embryos and neither of them

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Speaker 2: were successful. Then the second round of IVF, the first

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Speaker 2: embryo that we implanted was successful.

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Speaker 1: You felt pregnant that second round, you said, And in

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Speaker 1: the early stages. Did you wake up in the night

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Speaker 1: and you had a big bleed? What happened?

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Speaker 2: I had just finished dinner and I had got up

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Speaker 2: off my chair and I just felt a gush, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, that's weird. I've never felt this before.

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Speaker 2: So I went to the bathroom and there was just

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Speaker 2: blood everywhere, and I just continued bleeding. It was like

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Speaker 2: someone turned on a tap. Did it hurt, No, it

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Speaker 2: was just blood was coming out. And I assumed that

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Speaker 2: this was what a miscarriage was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you went to the hospital. Yeah, did you

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Speaker 1: call your mom?

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Speaker 3: He rang me, he said, he's aid, there's Michelle's really bleeding.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't really understand how much blood she had

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Speaker 3: lost until I went there, all over the floor that

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Speaker 3: attempted to wipe.

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Speaker 2: Some of it off in the corner of the shower.

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Speaker 3: She was quite upset, and the ambulance came and took her,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, it was horrible.

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Speaker 1: That must have been so scary and also sad because

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Speaker 1: you thought you were losing the baby.

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Speaker 2: At that point, I assumed that this was a miscarriage.

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Speaker 1: So they did the ultrasound, and I assume you expected

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Speaker 1: them to find nothing there.

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Speaker 2: I was passing really big clots, and every time one

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Speaker 2: came out, I assumed that that was our baby. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then the sonographer was just like, oh, and there's

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Speaker 2: the heartbeat, and I was like, excuse me, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Wow, little guy was holding on a fighter. What a fighter?

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Speaker 1: So did that mean that the pregnancy was pretty high risk?

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Speaker 1: I imagine at this point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So with my unicorn, you a uterus and the

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Speaker 2: bleeding was very consistent, Like I bled every single day

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Speaker 2: that pregnancy more than I would have a regular period.

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Speaker 2: So I was bleeding quite a lot.

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Speaker 1: Were you so anemic?

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Speaker 2: Probably was, but that was the last thing that was

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Speaker 2: last on my mind.

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Speaker 1: How do you get it? Like, every time you went

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom or you felt the blood coming out,

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Speaker 1: you must have thought or he's gone, He's like, what's happening?

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Speaker 1: How do you manage that mentally for all those weeks?

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Speaker 2: I guess you kind of repress all.

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Speaker 1: That'll do it. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's still working full time. Yeah, from her couch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It was in COVID, so I got to work

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Speaker 2: from home. That was That was a blessing. Actually, she

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Speaker 2: could just lie on the couch. Yeah, she didn't do

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Speaker 2: very much. We wouldn't letter of it, but I just

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Speaker 2: assumed that if it wasn't a big bleed. Yeah, every

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Speaker 2: was still fine, and we were having very regular ultrasounds

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: And did your doctor tell you that you would probably

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Speaker 1: carry a term, maybe not carry a term? What were

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Speaker 1: they telling you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so my doctor said that there are lots of

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Speaker 2: women with this kind of uterus that usually will carry

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Speaker 2: up until around the thirties, like m.

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Speaker 1: Which is good. I mean it's still premature, but it's good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he said that he might be around thirty five

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Speaker 2: thirty six weeks. Problem might be that the baby's breach

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Speaker 2: because there's not much for him to turn around. Problem

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Speaker 2: might be that, yeah, it might not be able to

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Speaker 2: stretch as far, so it might come a bit early.

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Speaker 2: But there are so many women around the world that

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Speaker 2: are able to carry babies to term. Wow, yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of uterus.

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Speaker 1: So you were trying to get to at least twenty

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Speaker 1: four weeks, twenty five weeks, which is kind of viability. Yea,

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Speaker 1: how far did you get?

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Speaker 2: Nineteen?

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Speaker 1: Then what happened?

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Speaker 2: Then? I woke up, I think it was a weekend,

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Speaker 2: and I went to the bathroom and there was no blood,

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Speaker 2: which was pretty good, good morning. And then I just

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Speaker 2: noticed that, like the TEMI the toilet paper was a

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Speaker 2: little bit more wet, yeah than it usually is. And

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Speaker 2: I was like, that's a bit weird. Went back into bed,

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Speaker 2: laid down. I was perfectly still laying horizontally, and then

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Speaker 2: just gush of water came out and I was like,

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Speaker 2: my water's just broken, and so we rushed to the hospital.

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Speaker 1: Jazzy, did Johnna call you?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: That night they came to our house.

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Speaker 3: We had dinner, and it was getting late, and they said, look,

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Speaker 3: don't drive home, just stay over. And Michelle, I remember,

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Speaker 3: said to me that night. I don't know if she

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Speaker 3: remembers I don't feel right. I said, oh, I've probably

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Speaker 3: eaten too much, blowing on the cash. She said, I

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Speaker 3: just don't feel right. And yeah, Johnna, I said, look,

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Speaker 3: I think Michelle's waters have broken.

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Speaker 2: So we rushed to the hospital. I went with them,

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Speaker 2: and yeah.

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Speaker 1: When you were driving there, I'm sorry this tell me

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Speaker 1: if this is all too upsetting, But when you were

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Speaker 1: driving there, did you think there was a chance or

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Speaker 1: did you know it's nineteen weeks, this isn't going to

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Speaker 1: end well.

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Speaker 2: I think in the moment, you're just trying to deal

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Speaker 2: with the situation at hand that I wasn't necessarily thinking

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Speaker 2: at part of the future. I still I didn't know

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Speaker 2: if this was something we could come back from. I

250
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Speaker 2: didn't know what was really happening, and so I was

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Speaker 2: just yeah, in this limbo.

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Speaker 3: Didn't the ultrasound person when they altra sounded you and

253
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Speaker 3: they found that the baby's heartbeat was still beating, I

254
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Speaker 3: think he said to you, or she said to you.

255
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Speaker 3: Sometimes the amnuonic fluid builds back up, so there was hope.

256
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Speaker 3: There was still hope.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it reseals and it fell back up. Oh okay,

258
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Speaker 2: well that's going to happen this time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it doesn't reseal, but it builds up and then

261
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Speaker 2: it's still enough for the baby to practice swallowing and breathing.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, that wasn't our case.

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Speaker 1: You had to give birth to little baby Ralph. I'm

264
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Speaker 1: so sorry he was born having already passed away. And

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Speaker 1: this is going to sound so strange, but I lost

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Speaker 1: a baby at that same point, at eighteen or nineteen weeks.

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Speaker 1: And when I watched your story on Australian Story, and

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Speaker 1: I watched the time that you got to spend with

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Speaker 1: baby Ralph in the hospital room, I was so jealous

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Speaker 1: because I didn't get that and I couldn't. I was

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Speaker 1: given the choice to give birth and I felt that

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Speaker 1: I couldn't, and so I had an operation and when

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Speaker 1: I woke up, that baby was gone and there were

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Speaker 1: no remains that that they were able to give me

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Speaker 1: because of what happened, you know, when they're extracting her.

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Speaker 1: And it's so funny because it was such a tragic thing.

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Speaker 1: Those images of you in the hospital and yet what

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Speaker 1: a gift that was to get to spend two days

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Speaker 1: with your baby. Is that how you see it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was giving birth, I had always dreamed

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Speaker 2: about giving birth vaginally naturally. I thought I had experienced

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Speaker 2: so much pain with my periods that I used to

283
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Speaker 2: joke I was like, child, that's going to be easy

284
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Speaker 2: to dream.

285
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Speaker 1: Like I'll phone it in. Yeah.

286
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Speaker 2: I was so grateful that I was able to give

287
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Speaker 2: birth that even though it wasn't going to be, you know,

288
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Speaker 2: a nice outcome in the end, I was so grateful

289
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Speaker 2: that I got to experience it. I was so grateful

290
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Speaker 2: that a few days before my water broke, I could

291
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Speaker 2: feel him start to move a little bit. I was

292
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Speaker 2: so grateful for all of that. Like a memory that

293
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Speaker 2: sticks with me is when he finally came all the

294
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Speaker 2: way down, Like I could feel everything, and I just

295
00:16:27,645 --> 00:16:31,045
Speaker 2: thought that was amazing, Like I never thought that you

296
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Speaker 2: could feel all of that. It was incredible. And the

297
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Speaker 2: way that hospitals now treat a stillbirth is so amazing.

298
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Speaker 2: There are a volunteer group of photographers that came and

299
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Speaker 2: took photos of us as a family, which was amazing.

300
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Speaker 2: The social workers that come in home chat to you

301
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Speaker 2: all the time. We had a cool crib so Ralph

302
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Speaker 2: could stay next to us, we could have him.

303
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Speaker 1: Had a little beanie.

304
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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, like the old grandma's and it the beanies.

305
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Speaker 1: Wow, tiny little beanies like thimbles.

306
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Speaker 2: It is amazing and I'm I'm so grateful that we

307
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Speaker 2: got to spend that time. Before I gave birth. I

308
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Speaker 2: didn't know if I wanted to. I was just like,

309
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Speaker 2: I don't know if I want I don't know if

310
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Speaker 2: I want him in a cool crib. I don't know

311
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Speaker 2: how I'm going to feel about this. But when he

312
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Speaker 2: was here, I was like, no, I do want this.

313
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Speaker 2: This is really nice.

314
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Speaker 1: After this break, what made Jasmina decide that she would

315
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Speaker 1: do whatever it took not to see her daughter Michelle

316
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Speaker 1: in so much grief and so much physical danger. Ever again,

317
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Speaker 1: before you got to be with him, you started hemorrhaging

318
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Speaker 1: in a big way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any memories of that?

321
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Speaker 2: Vivid memories. I remember everything. I remember the name of

322
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Speaker 2: the anethetist as I was wheeled into surgery.

323
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

324
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Speaker 2: I think with such like a traumatic event, my brain

325
00:18:03,045 --> 00:18:08,245
Speaker 2: just absorbed everything. It was just on. I was delivering

326
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Speaker 2: the placenta, I was holding Ralph, and the placenta was

327
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Speaker 2: coming out in like little bits. It was a bit funny,

328
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Speaker 2: and my doctor was like, oh, this is a bit weird.

329
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Speaker 2: It might just be because you delivered so early that

330
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Speaker 2: the placenter's whatever. And then she was like, just give

331
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Speaker 2: me a couple of pushes, and so I was pushing.

332
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Speaker 2: Everything was fine, and then all of a sudden, it

333
00:18:30,845 --> 00:18:33,885
Speaker 2: was like a horror film in like the fifties where

334
00:18:34,085 --> 00:18:39,805
Speaker 2: things blood was squirting out. My poor husband was sitting

335
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Speaker 2: there just watching it. I was I could feel things happening.

336
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Speaker 1: Yeah, what did it feel like from the inside.

337
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Speaker 2: I first felt like one of the big gushes of

338
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Speaker 2: blood that I had previously, just a gush of blood

339
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Speaker 2: that I'm assuming like lots of women have when they

340
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Speaker 2: have a flooding event, assuming it's the same as that.

341
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Speaker 2: It was just a big gush. And then all of

342
00:19:04,605 --> 00:19:08,525
Speaker 2: a sudden, the doctor was like, okay, I'm going to

343
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Speaker 2: call things. I had a midwife next to me that

344
00:19:11,885 --> 00:19:15,365
Speaker 2: started pumping my stomach. The other midwife was trying to

345
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Speaker 2: detangle me from all the cords and disconnect me so

346
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Speaker 2: they could wheel me away, and my doctor was like,

347
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Speaker 2: we're just going to take you into theater. You're bleeding

348
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Speaker 2: a little bit. We're just going to do something to

349
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Speaker 2: stop it. And they were all so calm. It was

350
00:19:27,965 --> 00:19:31,845
Speaker 2: just like, oh, okay, yep, that's fine. Meanwhile, John I

351
00:19:31,885 --> 00:19:34,245
Speaker 2: was standing next to me. He was like he just said,

352
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Speaker 2: He was like, there was so much blood. You got

353
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Speaker 2: it on the walls. It was all over the doctor.

354
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Speaker 1: That part, and he was holding Ralph.

355
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Speaker 2: And then yeah, we passed him Ralph. They wheeled me away.

356
00:19:46,245 --> 00:19:48,445
Speaker 2: So poor John I was left in a room by himself,

357
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Speaker 2: holding his child that had passed away, with his wife's

358
00:19:51,965 --> 00:19:55,125
Speaker 2: blood all over the room and potentially could pass away

359
00:19:55,165 --> 00:19:59,205
Speaker 2: as well. Yeahs away from the well, I asked. I

360
00:19:59,325 --> 00:20:01,805
Speaker 2: was asking the midwife as well, being wheeled down. I

361
00:20:01,845 --> 00:20:03,925
Speaker 2: was like, do people pass away from this? And she

362
00:20:03,965 --> 00:20:05,725
Speaker 2: looked at me and she was like no, no, no,

363
00:20:06,005 --> 00:20:08,085
Speaker 2: And it was only afterwards that she was like, yeah,

364
00:20:08,365 --> 00:20:10,685
Speaker 2: people came past away from memory ging. I just didn't

365
00:20:10,685 --> 00:20:11,885
Speaker 2: want to tell you that at the time.

366
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Speaker 3: Did you also say to that because you told me

367
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Speaker 3: you said you asked her, am I going to die today?

368
00:20:15,845 --> 00:20:17,285
Speaker 2: Yeah? I said, I was like, am I going to

369
00:20:17,365 --> 00:20:20,205
Speaker 2: die from this? Do people die from this? And she

370
00:20:20,365 --> 00:20:21,845
Speaker 2: was like no, no, no, you'll be fine.

371
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Speaker 1: Imagine if she said, well sometimes she did come.

372
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Speaker 2: Her. Yeah. It was only afterward that she said that

373
00:20:30,885 --> 00:20:36,445
Speaker 2: she believes that people are aware of their bodies. And

374
00:20:36,805 --> 00:20:43,245
Speaker 2: when I said that, she was like, oh gosh, does she.

375
00:20:42,405 --> 00:20:46,325
Speaker 1: Know where were you? Jazzy?

376
00:20:46,645 --> 00:20:50,565
Speaker 3: It was bloody covid, Oh my gosh, telephone not knowing

377
00:20:50,605 --> 00:20:52,845
Speaker 3: whether and John I was trying to pay it down,

378
00:20:52,845 --> 00:20:53,125
Speaker 3: but I.

379
00:20:53,045 --> 00:20:56,685
Speaker 2: Could hear in his voice that he was panicked. He said, look,

380
00:20:56,725 --> 00:21:00,605
Speaker 2: we've had a son. He didn't make it, and she'll

381
00:21:00,765 --> 00:21:03,485
Speaker 2: just had to go to theater. Said what what theater?

382
00:21:03,845 --> 00:21:05,245
Speaker 2: Does she have a cesarean? No?

383
00:21:05,245 --> 00:21:07,765
Speaker 3: No, and she said, oh there was a bit of

384
00:21:07,805 --> 00:21:10,005
Speaker 3: blood and they have to stop her. And it was

385
00:21:10,005 --> 00:21:12,565
Speaker 3: only afterwards that they told me the extent of it,

386
00:21:12,965 --> 00:21:15,325
Speaker 3: especially because she was in I see you for a

387
00:21:15,365 --> 00:21:16,485
Speaker 3: couple of days, just.

388
00:21:17,325 --> 00:21:19,445
Speaker 1: A day that was a day long, just one day,

389
00:21:19,565 --> 00:21:21,165
Speaker 1: just one day, and I see you nearly dying.

390
00:21:21,205 --> 00:21:25,125
Speaker 2: Just that's Michelle all over me everything.

391
00:21:24,885 --> 00:21:25,685
Speaker 1: Just one short day.

392
00:21:25,925 --> 00:21:28,085
Speaker 2: It was very, very scary, very jause.

393
00:21:28,205 --> 00:21:32,405
Speaker 1: You must have been like an animal, like wanting to

394
00:21:32,445 --> 00:21:33,485
Speaker 1: get to your what.

395
00:21:34,165 --> 00:21:36,165
Speaker 3: I didn't want to be that person that was always

396
00:21:36,205 --> 00:21:38,405
Speaker 3: in their face, but I wanted to know is my daughter.

397
00:21:38,525 --> 00:21:41,925
Speaker 2: Okay, it was horrible, horrible. It was the worst time ever.

398
00:21:42,165 --> 00:21:47,285
Speaker 1: I don't want I can't even imagine. And then when

399
00:21:47,325 --> 00:21:51,045
Speaker 1: you came out what you endured, which was beautiful but

400
00:21:51,125 --> 00:21:53,485
Speaker 1: also heartbreaking because no one wants a pregnancy to end

401
00:21:53,565 --> 00:21:59,525
Speaker 1: that way. You go home, you leave Ralph. That must

402
00:21:59,565 --> 00:22:02,205
Speaker 1: have been incredibly tough doing that.

403
00:22:03,005 --> 00:22:06,325
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really hard. I wanted to take him home. Yeah,

404
00:22:06,565 --> 00:22:08,525
Speaker 2: also knew that I couldn't.

405
00:22:09,045 --> 00:22:11,685
Speaker 3: Well, John rang me, and you said, Jesse, you've got

406
00:22:11,685 --> 00:22:14,165
Speaker 3: to ring Michelle and tell her. She doesn't want to

407
00:22:14,205 --> 00:22:19,005
Speaker 3: let Ralph go. She won't let them take him. And

408
00:22:19,045 --> 00:22:19,885
Speaker 3: I said, oh goodness.

409
00:22:19,965 --> 00:22:22,405
Speaker 2: I said, have you told He said, I have, but

410
00:22:22,525 --> 00:22:25,125
Speaker 2: you need to tell her. And I rang her. I said, miss,

411
00:22:25,285 --> 00:22:26,125
Speaker 2: you've got to do this.

412
00:22:26,285 --> 00:22:29,725
Speaker 3: You can't, you can't, I said, you just it's hard,

413
00:22:29,845 --> 00:22:30,965
Speaker 3: but you have to let him go.

414
00:22:31,205 --> 00:22:33,725
Speaker 2: And that was one of the hardest things. And she said,

415
00:22:33,725 --> 00:22:35,285
Speaker 2: black heart, Mom, I don't want to let him go

416
00:22:35,325 --> 00:22:40,165
Speaker 2: because I'll never see him again. Yeah. So yeah, it

417
00:22:40,245 --> 00:22:43,845
Speaker 2: was really hard. Yeah, but I'm so grateful for all

418
00:22:43,845 --> 00:22:46,565
Speaker 2: the photos that we got with him and all the

419
00:22:46,645 --> 00:22:48,525
Speaker 2: days that we got to spend with him.

420
00:22:49,125 --> 00:22:53,245
Speaker 1: I mean, there's like proof of him. Yeah, he was real.

421
00:22:53,605 --> 00:22:55,685
Speaker 1: He was your boy. He made her a mom, He

422
00:22:55,805 --> 00:22:56,645
Speaker 1: made you a mom.

423
00:22:56,845 --> 00:22:59,365
Speaker 2: She got to experience pregnancy and birth.

424
00:22:59,765 --> 00:23:04,445
Speaker 1: Oh my god, when did they tell you, hey, we're

425
00:23:04,445 --> 00:23:05,565
Speaker 1: not going to be doing that again.

426
00:23:06,085 --> 00:23:08,525
Speaker 2: It was when I went to a follow up appointment

427
00:23:08,805 --> 00:23:13,245
Speaker 2: after everything settled down. My obstraitrician just looked at me

428
00:23:13,325 --> 00:23:15,845
Speaker 2: and said, I don't think you should try that again.

429
00:23:16,325 --> 00:23:20,125
Speaker 2: And I was like, why not? Why can't I? And

430
00:23:20,205 --> 00:23:24,525
Speaker 2: she was just like, there's too many variables at play here.

431
00:23:24,845 --> 00:23:27,645
Speaker 2: We don't know why you bled the whole time. We

432
00:23:27,685 --> 00:23:30,845
Speaker 2: don't know why your water broke so early, we don't

433
00:23:30,885 --> 00:23:35,885
Speaker 2: know why you hemorrhaged afterwards. There's too many things that

434
00:23:36,005 --> 00:23:40,685
Speaker 2: are either going to cause more trauma to yourself or

435
00:23:41,245 --> 00:23:47,325
Speaker 2: potentially negative health effects. You might not make it next time. Dramatic,

436
00:23:47,445 --> 00:23:49,285
Speaker 2: I'm not dramatic. And this is the truth.

437
00:23:49,765 --> 00:23:53,365
Speaker 1: Well, it is true, it's actually true. Listen to your mother,

438
00:23:53,845 --> 00:23:56,605
Speaker 1: Michelle and your doctors. They're right, it's too risky.

439
00:23:57,125 --> 00:23:59,445
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I knew Michelle May. I knew that she

440
00:23:59,485 --> 00:24:03,245
Speaker 3: would not take no for an answer. Yeah, that would

441
00:24:03,245 --> 00:24:05,125
Speaker 3: do it. And my husband and I spoke about it.

442
00:24:05,165 --> 00:24:07,125
Speaker 3: We thought, there is no way Michelle's going to go.

443
00:24:07,205 --> 00:24:10,085
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I can't go again. I won't be your mum.

444
00:24:10,485 --> 00:24:12,525
Speaker 1: So you were worried that she was going to do

445
00:24:12,565 --> 00:24:13,485
Speaker 1: it again and risk.

446
00:24:13,325 --> 00:24:15,405
Speaker 3: Her life one hundred percent. My husband and I was

447
00:24:15,445 --> 00:24:19,325
Speaker 3: speaking to each other. I said, Druggy, Michelle's not going

448
00:24:19,365 --> 00:24:20,725
Speaker 3: to take no for a nance. He said, but you

449
00:24:20,725 --> 00:24:23,005
Speaker 3: know she's been told. And my husband had no idea

450
00:24:23,045 --> 00:24:26,325
Speaker 3: about Sarregussie at this stage. But I had heard about

451
00:24:26,365 --> 00:24:31,445
Speaker 3: it years and years previously, and I thought I could

452
00:24:31,485 --> 00:24:33,325
Speaker 3: carry I could carry a baby for them.

453
00:24:33,605 --> 00:24:35,525
Speaker 2: He said, don't be ridiculous. Do you know how old

454
00:24:35,565 --> 00:24:38,285
Speaker 2: you are. You can't do that. I said, I can,

455
00:24:38,845 --> 00:24:42,405
Speaker 2: I can, and I researched it. I girgled it. I

456
00:24:42,485 --> 00:24:45,925
Speaker 2: shady articles. There's not very much out there, especially in

457
00:24:45,965 --> 00:24:51,005
Speaker 2: Australia anyway, and I approached Michelle. I said, Michelle, I'm

458
00:24:51,005 --> 00:24:54,445
Speaker 2: going to do this for you. She said, are you sure, mum? Anyway,

459
00:24:54,445 --> 00:24:56,365
Speaker 2: I don't know how Michelle felt about it, but I was.

460
00:24:56,445 --> 00:25:00,245
Speaker 2: I was adamant I was going to do it. I've got.

461
00:25:01,925 --> 00:25:05,645
Speaker 1: Where were you? How did that conversation happen? Just like

462
00:25:05,845 --> 00:25:08,525
Speaker 1: over a cup of tea or it was.

463
00:25:09,645 --> 00:25:11,845
Speaker 2: It was like a running joke that we had even

464
00:25:11,885 --> 00:25:15,685
Speaker 2: before all this happened, because I knew that, like the

465
00:25:15,685 --> 00:25:17,485
Speaker 2: pain that I was experienced was a lot. I knew

466
00:25:17,485 --> 00:25:19,405
Speaker 2: that I had half a uterus. I knew all of this,

467
00:25:19,525 --> 00:25:21,445
Speaker 2: and Mom was like, I'll just do it for you

468
00:25:21,525 --> 00:25:23,965
Speaker 2: if you can't haha. Like it was always a running joke.

469
00:25:24,205 --> 00:25:26,645
Speaker 2: My husband had never paid attention to any of this stuff,

470
00:25:27,165 --> 00:25:29,445
Speaker 2: and it was I don't I don't even remember it,

471
00:25:29,485 --> 00:25:32,245
Speaker 2: do you know, I don't remember it. It was just like,

472
00:25:32,685 --> 00:25:34,725
Speaker 2: I will do it for you. And I kept saying,

473
00:25:34,725 --> 00:25:37,125
Speaker 2: my period, I'm still in a period. It's still happening.

474
00:25:37,525 --> 00:25:38,565
Speaker 2: I can still do.

475
00:25:38,885 --> 00:25:42,565
Speaker 1: Caught a lord above. At fifty two, you had a period, Chelsey,

476
00:25:42,645 --> 00:25:45,045
Speaker 1: look at you? Possible?

477
00:25:45,245 --> 00:25:49,005
Speaker 2: But I did and I kept every month. Yes, it's still.

478
00:25:50,325 --> 00:25:53,045
Speaker 1: Did you need to have a period to be a surrogain?

479
00:25:53,365 --> 00:25:56,005
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know, but they want you to.

480
00:25:56,205 --> 00:25:59,765
Speaker 2: There is a cutoff. There is definitely age cut off.

481
00:26:00,045 --> 00:26:03,925
Speaker 2: So by fifty two, which was me wow.

482
00:26:04,125 --> 00:26:08,005
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we had to move quickly and we haven't

483
00:26:08,045 --> 00:26:11,485
Speaker 1: talked about Sophie yet. John O's sister, your sister in law,

484
00:26:12,885 --> 00:26:16,045
Speaker 1: was that like at the same family dinner that she said, yeah,

485
00:26:16,045 --> 00:26:19,285
Speaker 1: I'll do that also, like what happens in your house?

486
00:26:19,445 --> 00:26:22,965
Speaker 2: Yeah, again, I think it was Sophie. It was always

487
00:26:23,045 --> 00:26:25,645
Speaker 2: just something that she also said. She was like, if

488
00:26:25,685 --> 00:26:30,285
Speaker 2: you can't do it, I to do it for you.

489
00:26:30,685 --> 00:26:33,285
Speaker 2: And then I think we went to her house afterwards

490
00:26:33,725 --> 00:26:36,405
Speaker 2: and she just said to me, I'm serious, I will

491
00:26:36,445 --> 00:26:38,445
Speaker 2: do it, like if you want me to.

492
00:26:39,245 --> 00:26:42,605
Speaker 1: So my question is, Sophie had three children, Jazzi, you

493
00:26:43,085 --> 00:26:47,965
Speaker 1: had Michelle and one other child. When you each found

494
00:26:48,005 --> 00:26:50,045
Speaker 1: out that the other was going to do it or

495
00:26:50,125 --> 00:26:53,205
Speaker 1: was willing to do it, didn't one of you go, oh,

496
00:26:53,285 --> 00:26:55,965
Speaker 1: well you're sorted. I don't I won't do it too,

497
00:26:56,685 --> 00:26:57,805
Speaker 1: let's just choose one.

498
00:26:58,445 --> 00:27:00,725
Speaker 3: That was never an option for me. I was always

499
00:27:00,725 --> 00:27:03,325
Speaker 3: going to try and help her out that way. I

500
00:27:03,365 --> 00:27:06,005
Speaker 3: knew that she wanted to have well, I thought it

501
00:27:06,005 --> 00:27:07,885
Speaker 3: would be nice for her to have more than one child.

502
00:27:08,445 --> 00:27:10,485
Speaker 3: And it was a bitch asking Sophie.

503
00:27:10,165 --> 00:27:10,765
Speaker 2: To do it. Twice.

504
00:27:10,845 --> 00:27:12,605
Speaker 3: I thought, you know what, I'll put my hand up,

505
00:27:12,645 --> 00:27:14,925
Speaker 3: I'll go one go, and Sophie was going to go

506
00:27:15,685 --> 00:27:16,165
Speaker 3: as well.

507
00:27:16,285 --> 00:27:17,725
Speaker 2: So there was her family.

508
00:27:18,245 --> 00:27:21,565
Speaker 1: Did you already have the embryos from your previous rounds

509
00:27:21,565 --> 00:27:22,925
Speaker 1: of IVF, so they were ready to go.

510
00:27:23,365 --> 00:27:25,525
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the second round of IVF, we got a

511
00:27:25,525 --> 00:27:28,645
Speaker 2: lot of embryos and so they were already they're ready

512
00:27:28,685 --> 00:27:30,085
Speaker 2: to go, so we didn't have to go through that

513
00:27:30,165 --> 00:27:31,045
Speaker 2: process again.

514
00:27:31,965 --> 00:27:35,685
Speaker 1: What are the laws around surrogacy? You can't pay someone

515
00:27:35,725 --> 00:27:39,805
Speaker 1: to carry a baby, but someone can do it altruistically, right, Yeah.

516
00:27:39,925 --> 00:27:43,965
Speaker 2: The laws around surrogacy are that you need to complete counseling.

517
00:27:44,005 --> 00:27:47,045
Speaker 2: There needs to be a legal agreement. The surrogate cannot

518
00:27:47,445 --> 00:27:52,405
Speaker 2: be financially disadvantaged. In the agreement, you're also not allowed

519
00:27:52,445 --> 00:27:54,725
Speaker 2: to pay them on top, so you're supposed to cover

520
00:27:55,405 --> 00:27:59,485
Speaker 2: like medical costs all those peace. Yeah, if they have

521
00:27:59,605 --> 00:28:02,685
Speaker 2: to take time off work, then you would pay for

522
00:28:02,725 --> 00:28:04,885
Speaker 2: that time that they took off.

523
00:28:05,445 --> 00:28:07,365
Speaker 1: Did you have to do two sets of counseling or

524
00:28:07,365 --> 00:28:09,925
Speaker 1: could you all just like kill two birds with one

525
00:28:09,925 --> 00:28:11,885
Speaker 1: stone and just all just going together?

526
00:28:12,125 --> 00:28:15,285
Speaker 2: So we did. Myself and John are mum and dad.

527
00:28:15,765 --> 00:28:15,925
Speaker 1: Yeah.

528
00:28:15,965 --> 00:28:17,445
Speaker 2: I didn't understand why he needed.

529
00:28:17,245 --> 00:28:19,125
Speaker 1: To be like what do I got to do with this?

530
00:28:20,645 --> 00:28:21,725
Speaker 1: Why do I need to be here?

531
00:28:21,765 --> 00:28:24,965
Speaker 3: You know how well he is about feelings, Like yeah, fine,

532
00:28:25,125 --> 00:28:26,605
Speaker 3: you know, how does this affect you?

533
00:28:26,925 --> 00:28:27,485
Speaker 2: And it's fine.

534
00:28:27,565 --> 00:28:29,645
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about my daughter's vagina and

535
00:28:30,005 --> 00:28:32,205
Speaker 1: all my wife's in a room. I don't want that.

536
00:28:33,565 --> 00:28:35,685
Speaker 2: So myself and John I had to do it. Mom

537
00:28:35,685 --> 00:28:36,965
Speaker 2: and dad had to do it. We had to do

538
00:28:37,005 --> 00:28:40,525
Speaker 2: it Tokay and Sophie and her husband had to do it.

539
00:28:40,605 --> 00:28:42,605
Speaker 2: Then we had to do it together. Then we had

540
00:28:42,645 --> 00:28:46,205
Speaker 2: to get all three couples together and do one big,

541
00:28:46,565 --> 00:28:49,165
Speaker 2: happy family just in case.

542
00:28:49,245 --> 00:28:50,925
Speaker 1: I don't know, what kinds of things did you talk

543
00:28:50,965 --> 00:28:52,725
Speaker 1: about in the counseling, What do they want to know?

544
00:28:53,165 --> 00:28:55,605
Speaker 3: How are we going to feel when the baby was

545
00:28:55,645 --> 00:28:59,165
Speaker 3: born and having to hand it over, and how are

546
00:28:59,165 --> 00:29:01,485
Speaker 3: we going to cope with the mental load.

547
00:29:01,325 --> 00:29:03,765
Speaker 2: Of it all? But it was also it was also

548
00:29:03,885 --> 00:29:06,005
Speaker 2: just seeing if you're a sane person to begin with.

549
00:29:05,965 --> 00:29:07,405
Speaker 1: Because I was going to say, how can you answer

550
00:29:07,445 --> 00:29:08,805
Speaker 1: that when you haven't done it? You don't know.

551
00:29:09,965 --> 00:29:13,285
Speaker 2: But also it was a lot of questions on are

552
00:29:13,325 --> 00:29:16,085
Speaker 2: they in a good mental state to be able to

553
00:29:16,165 --> 00:29:18,805
Speaker 2: carry our pregnancy right? Yeah?

554
00:29:18,845 --> 00:29:22,285
Speaker 3: And finding people that specialize in this was hard because

555
00:29:22,325 --> 00:29:22,885
Speaker 3: you can just.

556
00:29:22,805 --> 00:29:25,645
Speaker 2: Get a someone that does law for like.

557
00:29:25,565 --> 00:29:27,445
Speaker 3: You know, when you buy a house or conveyance. It

558
00:29:27,565 --> 00:29:30,365
Speaker 3: had to be a specialist in that field, and that

559
00:29:30,485 --> 00:29:30,765
Speaker 3: was hard.

560
00:29:30,805 --> 00:29:33,685
Speaker 2: We had counselors and lawyers from all over the country.

561
00:29:34,085 --> 00:29:36,725
Speaker 1: So why did you need lawyers? Because of when the

562
00:29:36,765 --> 00:29:41,245
Speaker 1: baby was born? Genetically it was Michelle and John O's,

563
00:29:41,765 --> 00:29:46,965
Speaker 1: but it came out of the body of Jazzy and Sophie.

564
00:29:47,285 --> 00:29:49,125
Speaker 1: So what does the law have to do. Did you

565
00:29:49,165 --> 00:29:51,325
Speaker 1: have to adopt your own biological children?

566
00:29:51,645 --> 00:29:51,805
Speaker 2: Yes?

567
00:29:52,365 --> 00:29:52,805
Speaker 1: Much so.

568
00:29:53,405 --> 00:29:56,925
Speaker 2: The legal agreement that we had to do as a

569
00:29:56,925 --> 00:30:01,605
Speaker 2: part of the surrogacy process was based purely on finances,

570
00:30:02,045 --> 00:30:07,245
Speaker 2: so that legally, if someone was out of pocket, we

571
00:30:07,285 --> 00:30:09,925
Speaker 2: would have to make sure that they weren't. That was

572
00:30:10,005 --> 00:30:13,685
Speaker 2: the extent of the legal agreement. There was no line

573
00:30:13,725 --> 00:30:18,085
Speaker 2: in that that said just mean I must hand over Chase.

574
00:30:17,925 --> 00:30:20,125
Speaker 1: Men, I can't run off with the baby.

575
00:30:21,285 --> 00:30:26,445
Speaker 2: Children was stimulated in the legal agreement, right, so she

576
00:30:26,565 --> 00:30:28,485
Speaker 2: could have taken the baby and there would have been

577
00:30:28,525 --> 00:30:30,805
Speaker 2: no legal documents saying that that was not a bad thing.

578
00:30:30,845 --> 00:30:32,085
Speaker 1: Who's on the birth certificate?

579
00:30:32,405 --> 00:30:36,525
Speaker 2: Mum and Dad are on Hugo's birth certificate and Sophie

580
00:30:36,725 --> 00:30:41,005
Speaker 2: and her husband Hilarious Spencer's, And so then I had

581
00:30:41,005 --> 00:30:44,885
Speaker 2: to fill out hours and hours of paperwork. Two new

582
00:30:45,445 --> 00:30:49,445
Speaker 2: they were born to have the birth certificate changed.

583
00:30:49,805 --> 00:30:53,525
Speaker 1: That seems outrageous that your husband, Jazzy and Sophie's husband,

584
00:30:53,565 --> 00:30:55,765
Speaker 1: he really didn't even want to go to the counseling appointments.

585
00:30:55,765 --> 00:30:59,685
Speaker 2: Frankly austrange situation. Definitely.

586
00:31:00,205 --> 00:31:00,805
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow.

587
00:31:01,085 --> 00:31:03,085
Speaker 2: I thought it was weird that there had to be

588
00:31:03,125 --> 00:31:07,085
Speaker 2: a second parent on it. Yes, what's my husband with?

589
00:31:07,525 --> 00:31:08,285
Speaker 1: Literally nothing?

590
00:31:08,525 --> 00:31:13,365
Speaker 2: But I also understand why my dad's name was on it,

591
00:31:13,725 --> 00:31:17,205
Speaker 2: because if the situation was reversed and you had an

592
00:31:17,205 --> 00:31:20,565
Speaker 2: embryo that had been donated to you grown a baby,

593
00:31:20,805 --> 00:31:23,845
Speaker 2: deliminate than fair. I understand why the wall.

594
00:31:23,925 --> 00:31:28,045
Speaker 1: Yeah that way, So Jasi, what was pregnancy like the

595
00:31:28,125 --> 00:31:29,925
Speaker 1: third time around at age fifty two?

596
00:31:30,605 --> 00:31:33,885
Speaker 3: Well, I was pretty impressed that when the transfer happened,

597
00:31:33,965 --> 00:31:36,005
Speaker 3: Michelle said, Mom, you're going to get three goes. I

598
00:31:36,045 --> 00:31:40,365
Speaker 3: don't have an endless supply of embryos. Oh, no pressure.

599
00:31:40,885 --> 00:31:42,525
Speaker 3: Three goes and that's it. You know, I'm going to

600
00:31:42,565 --> 00:31:44,765
Speaker 3: hand Sofia. Then she's younger and it'll probably you know,

601
00:31:44,845 --> 00:31:46,885
Speaker 3: work for her better than you, And I thought, oh gosh,

602
00:31:46,925 --> 00:31:47,445
Speaker 3: no pressure.

603
00:31:47,885 --> 00:31:52,045
Speaker 2: So anyway, Hugo was implanted. I drive home, my husband

604
00:31:52,085 --> 00:31:52,485
Speaker 2: drive me home.

605
00:31:52,525 --> 00:31:54,765
Speaker 3: I had my feet on the dashboard because I didn't

606
00:31:54,805 --> 00:31:55,645
Speaker 3: want to risk anything.

607
00:31:55,685 --> 00:31:58,365
Speaker 2: I'm sitting and I lay down. I wanted to fall out.

608
00:31:58,445 --> 00:32:00,405
Speaker 2: I didn't want it to fall out. I laid down on.

609
00:32:00,365 --> 00:32:02,885
Speaker 3: That couch Mia for three days. I did not move

610
00:32:03,525 --> 00:32:05,805
Speaker 3: my legs up on the thing, and.

611
00:32:05,805 --> 00:32:07,605
Speaker 1: Anyway it worked.

612
00:32:08,685 --> 00:32:09,805
Speaker 2: I did wacked.

613
00:32:10,285 --> 00:32:12,205
Speaker 3: Anyway, we went to the ultra sad and there's a

614
00:32:12,245 --> 00:32:13,005
Speaker 3: little heartbeat off.

615
00:32:13,165 --> 00:32:14,285
Speaker 2: Oh did it first?

616
00:32:14,285 --> 00:32:14,445
Speaker 4: Guy?

617
00:32:14,485 --> 00:32:20,685
Speaker 2: Michelle? Ha But pregnancy when mum was pregnant the first time,

618
00:32:20,725 --> 00:32:23,925
Speaker 2: you were twenty one and twenty I was. I was

619
00:32:23,965 --> 00:32:25,285
Speaker 2: a twenty one year old.

620
00:32:25,165 --> 00:32:28,445
Speaker 3: And a twenty four with my pregnancies, and I'd sort

621
00:32:28,445 --> 00:32:30,485
Speaker 3: of forgotten and I had easy pregnancies.

622
00:32:30,525 --> 00:32:33,165
Speaker 2: I didn't have any morning sickness. I worked pretty much

623
00:32:33,165 --> 00:32:33,645
Speaker 2: to the end.

624
00:32:33,765 --> 00:32:39,325
Speaker 3: When I carried Michelle and then with Hugo, I was

625
00:32:39,365 --> 00:32:40,445
Speaker 3: so psyching myself up.

626
00:32:40,445 --> 00:32:41,605
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, this is not going to be

627
00:32:41,725 --> 00:32:43,125
Speaker 2: as easy. I'm an old woman.

628
00:32:43,605 --> 00:32:47,165
Speaker 3: But it wasn't as bad as I had psyched myself up.

629
00:32:47,765 --> 00:32:51,245
Speaker 3: It was relatively easy. I felt very healthy. I think

630
00:32:51,285 --> 00:32:54,525
Speaker 3: I only threw up once in the beginning. I felt

631
00:32:54,525 --> 00:32:58,605
Speaker 3: a bit sea sick, definitely, but that was quite comforting

632
00:32:58,645 --> 00:33:01,405
Speaker 3: because I thought, well, if I am feeling sick, then

633
00:33:01,445 --> 00:33:02,285
Speaker 3: it's still happening.

634
00:33:02,405 --> 00:33:06,045
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about you, Perry, were you like perimenopausal and

635
00:33:06,205 --> 00:33:07,405
Speaker 1: pregnant at the same time.

636
00:33:07,565 --> 00:33:12,245
Speaker 3: I commend women our carry their grandchildren as a surrogate.

637
00:33:12,605 --> 00:33:15,325
Speaker 2: I was a rainy year old. My frozen shoulder.

638
00:33:15,125 --> 00:33:19,245
Speaker 3: Deep frosted itself. My hip was very sore before that

639
00:33:19,605 --> 00:33:21,925
Speaker 3: wasn't sore. I had beautiful, luscious hair.

640
00:33:22,485 --> 00:33:26,365
Speaker 2: I hate. My skin was beautiful. I had all the hormones.

641
00:33:26,405 --> 00:33:27,325
Speaker 2: I had all the estrogen.

642
00:33:28,005 --> 00:33:29,725
Speaker 1: It's a different type of HRT.

643
00:33:30,005 --> 00:33:33,485
Speaker 2: I guess it's a great hard it's a natural hate.

644
00:33:34,365 --> 00:33:38,085
Speaker 3: I felt great, honestly I did, apart from having gestational diabetes, yeah,

645
00:33:38,125 --> 00:33:40,485
Speaker 3: which they expected I would get. And that was a

646
00:33:40,485 --> 00:33:42,685
Speaker 3: good thing because I put on thirty kilos when I

647
00:33:42,685 --> 00:33:45,285
Speaker 3: carried Michelle. I put on ten kiloes when I carried

648
00:33:45,365 --> 00:33:47,245
Speaker 3: Hugo because I was on a very strict diet.

649
00:33:48,085 --> 00:33:50,685
Speaker 1: How did you feel different in your pregnancy and like

650
00:33:50,885 --> 00:33:52,485
Speaker 1: how you felt towards the baby.

651
00:33:52,885 --> 00:33:57,405
Speaker 3: I felt like babysitting for nine months, like you don't

652
00:33:57,445 --> 00:34:01,565
Speaker 3: want this child anything to happen. I stopped putting retinoile

653
00:34:01,565 --> 00:34:04,205
Speaker 3: on my face because you know, I'm not from pregnant women.

654
00:34:04,405 --> 00:34:06,325
Speaker 3: I was careful with what I ate because I thought,

655
00:34:06,325 --> 00:34:08,645
Speaker 3: oh no, that's too much sugar. And I definitely didn't

656
00:34:08,725 --> 00:34:12,165
Speaker 3: drink alcohol, obviously, but I was on edge. I didn't

657
00:34:12,205 --> 00:34:14,485
Speaker 3: hang out the washing. My husband would, and he was

658
00:34:14,525 --> 00:34:15,965
Speaker 3: as just as protective as me.

659
00:34:16,685 --> 00:34:19,565
Speaker 2: They're on hire alert the whole entire time. It's like

660
00:34:19,765 --> 00:34:21,165
Speaker 2: baby sitting on steroids.

661
00:34:21,165 --> 00:34:25,485
Speaker 3: It was Hugo had turned unbeknownst to me, and he

662
00:34:25,525 --> 00:34:29,165
Speaker 3: didn't kick for about a day and a half and.

663
00:34:29,165 --> 00:34:30,445
Speaker 2: I was getting more and more worried.

664
00:34:30,485 --> 00:34:32,365
Speaker 3: And I was sitting next to my boss and she said,

665
00:34:32,485 --> 00:34:34,605
Speaker 3: just go to the hospital. I said, I don't want

666
00:34:34,605 --> 00:34:36,365
Speaker 3: to bother them. She said, just just go. And I

667
00:34:36,365 --> 00:34:38,325
Speaker 3: didn't tell Michelle and John I because I didn't want

668
00:34:38,365 --> 00:34:42,005
Speaker 3: to make them nervous and scared. I went in and

669
00:34:42,285 --> 00:34:45,085
Speaker 3: they said, oh no, he's still you know, got a heartbeat,

670
00:34:45,205 --> 00:34:46,165
Speaker 3: it's still kicking.

671
00:34:46,765 --> 00:34:49,085
Speaker 2: He just turned. He had his back to me, and

672
00:34:49,125 --> 00:34:49,685
Speaker 2: that was like.

673
00:34:49,885 --> 00:34:52,205
Speaker 3: But until I got it checked out, I was just

674
00:34:52,365 --> 00:34:54,925
Speaker 3: a nervous wreck, thinking, oh gosh, I hope everything's okay.

675
00:34:54,965 --> 00:34:57,685
Speaker 3: And I perk my stomach and still nothing that I

676
00:34:57,685 --> 00:34:58,325
Speaker 3: could feel.

677
00:34:58,685 --> 00:35:02,725
Speaker 1: It was all the responsibility must have been really hectic. Yes, Michelle,

678
00:35:02,725 --> 00:35:05,085
Speaker 1: How did it feel for you in terms of I

679
00:35:05,085 --> 00:35:09,645
Speaker 1: imagine were you jealous a little bit? Yeah?

680
00:35:09,805 --> 00:35:13,285
Speaker 2: I was. It's amazing how many emotions you can feel

681
00:35:13,365 --> 00:35:16,685
Speaker 2: that contradict each other at the same time. So I

682
00:35:16,885 --> 00:35:21,405
Speaker 2: was first and foremost so grateful that two women were

683
00:35:22,445 --> 00:35:26,725
Speaker 2: putting their bodies through this or my benefit. I was

684
00:35:27,685 --> 00:35:31,965
Speaker 2: so grateful that we're able to do this. But then

685
00:35:32,085 --> 00:35:35,885
Speaker 2: every time I would visit or i'd be just sitting

686
00:35:35,965 --> 00:35:39,565
Speaker 2: on the couch with JOHNO, I would just have this

687
00:35:39,805 --> 00:35:43,485
Speaker 2: longing but I wish it was me, even though logically

688
00:35:43,605 --> 00:35:46,165
Speaker 2: I know it can't be me. I cannot do this.

689
00:35:47,045 --> 00:35:52,085
Speaker 2: I just was annoyed that it wasn't me. It wasn't

690
00:35:52,125 --> 00:35:57,685
Speaker 2: necessarily like jealousy of them. It was just I wish

691
00:35:57,765 --> 00:35:59,045
Speaker 2: I could do it myself.

692
00:35:59,125 --> 00:36:01,965
Speaker 1: It must have been also quite exhausting to be that grateful.

693
00:36:02,845 --> 00:36:04,925
Speaker 1: Was it like thank you no, but thank you no,

694
00:36:05,005 --> 00:36:07,245
Speaker 1: but thank you so much. But I can't tell you

695
00:36:07,285 --> 00:36:08,445
Speaker 1: how much I appreciate it.

696
00:36:08,525 --> 00:36:14,885
Speaker 2: I don't think over barring them like much to dinner. No,

697
00:36:15,205 --> 00:36:15,725
Speaker 2: she would.

698
00:36:15,765 --> 00:36:18,205
Speaker 3: She would go over Sophie's house and help you put

699
00:36:18,245 --> 00:36:21,445
Speaker 3: the kids, especially in the later stages of state.

700
00:36:21,645 --> 00:36:24,045
Speaker 2: We were Yeah, a lot more helpful for Sophie.

701
00:36:24,245 --> 00:36:25,845
Speaker 3: But I said to Michelle, I said, I'm fine, you

702
00:36:25,885 --> 00:36:27,885
Speaker 3: don't need to do anything with me on fine.

703
00:36:28,125 --> 00:36:30,285
Speaker 1: How old was Sophie's other kids so.

704
00:36:30,205 --> 00:36:34,805
Speaker 2: Small at the time, I can't remember six, five and four?

705
00:36:35,005 --> 00:36:38,805
Speaker 1: Oh wow, wow, yeah, And what did she tell them?

706
00:36:38,845 --> 00:36:40,445
Speaker 1: I mean, not that they would really care or be

707
00:36:40,525 --> 00:36:41,165
Speaker 1: that interested.

708
00:36:41,605 --> 00:36:43,565
Speaker 2: The best thing about little kids is that you tell

709
00:36:43,605 --> 00:36:44,765
Speaker 2: them something and they're.

710
00:36:44,565 --> 00:36:47,205
Speaker 1: Just like, oh, they just accept you. It's excellent.

711
00:36:47,325 --> 00:36:51,005
Speaker 2: It's just like, oh, mum's gonna grow Uncle John O

712
00:36:51,085 --> 00:36:54,245
Speaker 2: and Ernie Misha's baby, and they were all like, okay, cool.

713
00:36:54,285 --> 00:36:57,285
Speaker 2: They would call they would call her bumper, that's our cousin.

714
00:36:58,165 --> 00:36:59,525
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah.

715
00:36:59,645 --> 00:37:02,525
Speaker 1: Did you have to have some awkward conversations when it

716
00:37:02,605 --> 00:37:05,565
Speaker 1: was like, oh, you're pregnant, huh, you know you're old?

717
00:37:05,765 --> 00:37:08,365
Speaker 1: Or who's bait? Yeah, and then you had to go, oh, yeah,

718
00:37:08,365 --> 00:37:10,365
Speaker 1: it's my daughter and her Husbut like, that's not a

719
00:37:10,405 --> 00:37:13,765
Speaker 1: conversation that's easy to have at the supermarket with a stranger.

720
00:37:14,285 --> 00:37:17,445
Speaker 2: Well, in the beginning, Michelle wasn't ready to tell anybody.

721
00:37:17,965 --> 00:37:19,765
Speaker 3: And we've got a group of friends that we always

722
00:37:19,805 --> 00:37:25,205
Speaker 3: go out with and lucky it was winter ish. So

723
00:37:25,325 --> 00:37:28,685
Speaker 3: I'd rock up with these scarves and these big coats

724
00:37:28,765 --> 00:37:30,365
Speaker 3: and I'd say, Michell, we have to tell.

725
00:37:30,525 --> 00:37:32,445
Speaker 2: She said, no, you don't even know. I'm not ready

726
00:37:32,525 --> 00:37:35,085
Speaker 2: yet because I don't know for whatever reason she wasn't

727
00:37:35,125 --> 00:37:35,685
Speaker 2: ready to tell.

728
00:37:35,805 --> 00:37:38,125
Speaker 1: Why weren't you, Michelle? I want to ask you about that.

729
00:37:38,725 --> 00:37:42,485
Speaker 2: I was petrified that it wasn't going to work. Like

730
00:37:42,565 --> 00:37:45,085
Speaker 2: we hadn't made it till the nineteen week mark. We

731
00:37:45,125 --> 00:37:46,325
Speaker 2: hadn't read it till twenty four.

732
00:37:46,525 --> 00:37:50,245
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're protecting yourself some protection mechanism. I get it.

733
00:37:50,285 --> 00:37:50,765
Speaker 1: I get it.

734
00:37:50,845 --> 00:37:51,045
Speaker 2: Well.

735
00:37:51,045 --> 00:37:54,405
Speaker 3: I was pretty huge, and I was just waiting for

736
00:37:54,445 --> 00:37:56,925
Speaker 3: one of my friends to say something, and I didn't

737
00:37:56,965 --> 00:37:59,405
Speaker 3: know how I was going to explain it away. So

738
00:37:59,645 --> 00:38:03,085
Speaker 3: I'd be sitting there, sweating in the scarfs and jackets and.

739
00:38:03,005 --> 00:38:05,165
Speaker 2: They don't it's hot. Why can't you take no? No,

740
00:38:05,245 --> 00:38:05,845
Speaker 2: I feel cold?

741
00:38:05,845 --> 00:38:09,525
Speaker 3: I feel cold maywhile they were looking at me and going, oh,

742
00:38:09,605 --> 00:38:12,645
Speaker 3: menopause is not treating that woman right at it. He's

743
00:38:12,685 --> 00:38:14,565
Speaker 3: got hot blushes, she's got a big.

744
00:38:14,365 --> 00:38:15,765
Speaker 1: Gut weight gain, look at her.

745
00:38:15,885 --> 00:38:19,725
Speaker 2: Wait game. Yeah it was dad. So one day they

746
00:38:19,765 --> 00:38:22,565
Speaker 2: decided to tell their friends because Michelle said okay, you

747
00:38:22,605 --> 00:38:25,045
Speaker 2: can tell them now. I wasn't there. No, no, you

748
00:38:25,045 --> 00:38:25,405
Speaker 2: weren't there.

749
00:38:25,605 --> 00:38:28,365
Speaker 1: What happened when you told your friends? We were sitting at.

750
00:38:28,285 --> 00:38:30,645
Speaker 3: Dinner and druggons. My husband said, look, everyone, I need

751
00:38:30,685 --> 00:38:34,165
Speaker 3: your attention. And then they go, well, we're having a baby.

752
00:38:34,205 --> 00:38:38,085
Speaker 3: Jesse's having a baby. She's pregnant. They went what like

753
00:38:38,165 --> 00:38:40,845
Speaker 3: it was like a disgust, almost like what what's wrong

754
00:38:40,885 --> 00:38:41,325
Speaker 3: with you?

755
00:38:41,525 --> 00:38:42,605
Speaker 1: You old people doing?

756
00:38:42,805 --> 00:38:43,005
Speaker 2: Eh?

757
00:38:43,805 --> 00:38:47,165
Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty much that and then here goes but it's

758
00:38:47,205 --> 00:38:51,645
Speaker 3: not my baby, and then they went, oh.

759
00:38:50,365 --> 00:38:50,525
Speaker 2: You.

760
00:38:54,365 --> 00:38:56,565
Speaker 1: That's so funny. He sounds excellent.

761
00:38:57,685 --> 00:39:00,725
Speaker 3: So yeah, we told them, but a vivid memory that

762
00:39:00,805 --> 00:39:03,805
Speaker 3: I have. We had to go through the hospital, through

763
00:39:03,805 --> 00:39:07,325
Speaker 3: the specialists there, and Michelle couldn't get out of work

764
00:39:07,365 --> 00:39:09,125
Speaker 3: that day, so it was just JOHNO when I went

765
00:39:09,685 --> 00:39:11,205
Speaker 3: and I said, You're like, can we hold hands when

766
00:39:11,205 --> 00:39:11,725
Speaker 3: we go in?

767
00:39:13,845 --> 00:39:15,325
Speaker 1: Are you're such a trial? I love it?

768
00:39:15,485 --> 00:39:18,125
Speaker 2: There were people looking at what are you doing with her?

769
00:39:18,405 --> 00:39:19,565
Speaker 2: Like she's old?

770
00:39:20,405 --> 00:39:22,445
Speaker 3: Even when I went shopping, people would look at me up.

771
00:39:22,565 --> 00:39:26,005
Speaker 3: I could see they do a double take, the calculations

772
00:39:26,085 --> 00:39:27,765
Speaker 3: like you look too old.

773
00:39:28,165 --> 00:39:31,605
Speaker 1: Yes, Jonathan could have just gone, oh, don't worry, it's

774
00:39:31,645 --> 00:39:32,805
Speaker 1: just my mother in law.

775
00:39:34,725 --> 00:39:37,285
Speaker 2: Pretty much. Yeah, you wouldn't have been lying either.

776
00:39:40,045 --> 00:39:42,765
Speaker 1: After this break, are you ready for it? Jasmina goes

777
00:39:42,805 --> 00:39:49,005
Speaker 1: into labor and it's a very funny the two different

778
00:39:49,045 --> 00:39:52,765
Speaker 1: births because you know, Sophie got pregnant the first goal

779
00:39:52,765 --> 00:39:55,165
Speaker 1: of IVF as well, which you weren't expecting. So there

780
00:39:55,245 --> 00:39:58,245
Speaker 1: was seven weeks between you, right between your delivery dates.

781
00:39:59,165 --> 00:40:03,045
Speaker 1: You had Hugo first and you had him by C section.

782
00:40:03,725 --> 00:40:06,205
Speaker 1: What was your experience of the birth, Mish? What was

783
00:40:06,205 --> 00:40:06,965
Speaker 1: that like for you?

784
00:40:07,925 --> 00:40:12,845
Speaker 2: I was petrified. I was so nervous, like just hoping

785
00:40:12,885 --> 00:40:17,205
Speaker 2: that everything would turn out okay. I was scared for

786
00:40:17,485 --> 00:40:22,405
Speaker 2: mum having you know, major abdominal surgery. I was, you know,

787
00:40:22,845 --> 00:40:26,925
Speaker 2: very hopeful that the baby would come out alive. And

788
00:40:26,965 --> 00:40:30,165
Speaker 2: so there's videos of me just like pacing up and

789
00:40:30,205 --> 00:40:33,685
Speaker 2: down the corridor and jumping and doing dancers, just being

790
00:40:33,765 --> 00:40:36,845
Speaker 2: like okay, I'm ready, I'm ready, Like come on. I

791
00:40:36,925 --> 00:40:40,485
Speaker 2: was very nervous and I don't really experience intense emotions

792
00:40:40,565 --> 00:40:43,285
Speaker 2: like that, and like, I was very nervous.

793
00:40:43,685 --> 00:40:45,445
Speaker 1: How did you both feel when the baby came out?

794
00:40:45,485 --> 00:40:46,125
Speaker 1: What was that Like?

795
00:40:46,605 --> 00:40:49,005
Speaker 2: It is so real and I think it is for

796
00:40:49,205 --> 00:40:52,805
Speaker 2: so many people. Just as soon as they're here, you're

797
00:40:52,885 --> 00:40:56,325
Speaker 2: kind of like, you're here. Oh my goodness, there's a

798
00:40:56,365 --> 00:41:00,565
Speaker 2: person in that stomach, and now you're mine. Like I

799
00:41:00,685 --> 00:41:06,605
Speaker 2: had shocked, I was relieved that he was well. There

800
00:41:06,645 --> 00:41:10,245
Speaker 2: was just so much joy. I was like, I was like,

801
00:41:10,285 --> 00:41:13,965
Speaker 2: you're finally here. This is real. I cannot believe it.

802
00:41:13,965 --> 00:41:15,165
Speaker 2: It was a really nice moment.

803
00:41:15,725 --> 00:41:18,605
Speaker 1: Jesse, how did you feel towards the baby? And I

804
00:41:18,605 --> 00:41:20,165
Speaker 1: think I know what you're going to say. Compared to

805
00:41:20,245 --> 00:41:23,445
Speaker 1: when you met your own children for the first time.

806
00:41:23,845 --> 00:41:27,565
Speaker 3: I felt like a grandmother. I never felt like he

807
00:41:27,765 --> 00:41:31,165
Speaker 3: was mine, not even for a second. And I was

808
00:41:31,245 --> 00:41:34,885
Speaker 3: so honored and proud that I could do this. I

809
00:41:35,005 --> 00:41:39,325
Speaker 3: was healthy enough because there's apart from the psychological testing

810
00:41:39,325 --> 00:41:42,365
Speaker 3: and factors, you have to be physically healthy because the

811
00:41:42,405 --> 00:41:46,005
Speaker 3: doctors aren't going to risk your health and life by

812
00:41:46,085 --> 00:41:48,245
Speaker 3: making you go through this. It was such an honor

813
00:41:48,285 --> 00:41:51,525
Speaker 3: and privilege in just watching them, the joy and the

814
00:41:51,565 --> 00:41:56,205
Speaker 3: tears of happiness, and you know, holding Hugo was just

815
00:41:56,405 --> 00:41:58,605
Speaker 3: the best thing and I'll never never forget that, and

816
00:41:58,645 --> 00:42:00,245
Speaker 3: I was so lucky to be part of that.

817
00:42:00,685 --> 00:42:02,965
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of mums try and weasel their way

818
00:42:03,005 --> 00:42:05,765
Speaker 2: into the delivery room and someone took it.

819
00:42:05,845 --> 00:42:09,805
Speaker 1: Now, it's funny you say that I tried, Well, this

820
00:42:09,885 --> 00:42:10,605
Speaker 1: is what you have to do.

821
00:42:11,805 --> 00:42:12,365
Speaker 2: What you've got to do.

822
00:42:12,485 --> 00:42:15,685
Speaker 1: I didn't think of offering to actually carry the baby.

823
00:42:16,285 --> 00:42:18,405
Speaker 1: That will be my plan for grandchild number two.

824
00:42:18,685 --> 00:42:19,245
Speaker 2: You do that.

825
00:42:19,765 --> 00:42:23,045
Speaker 1: It's interesting, Mish. I've watched some of the footage of

826
00:42:23,165 --> 00:42:26,045
Speaker 1: you for the birth of Hugo and then for the

827
00:42:26,045 --> 00:42:29,445
Speaker 1: birth the Spencer five weeks later, and Sophie, your sister

828
00:42:29,485 --> 00:42:31,565
Speaker 1: in law, gave birth vaginally, and you were there with

829
00:42:31,645 --> 00:42:34,645
Speaker 1: John O. That was very funny to watch because he

830
00:42:34,765 --> 00:42:38,045
Speaker 1: was actually, that's his sister's vagina down there that his

831
00:42:38,285 --> 00:42:42,845
Speaker 1: son's coming out of. And he tries trying not to

832
00:42:42,885 --> 00:42:47,525
Speaker 1: look at one point, so cool, And what did Sophie

833
00:42:47,605 --> 00:42:49,125
Speaker 1: say when he was trying not to look.

834
00:42:49,405 --> 00:42:52,405
Speaker 2: Sophie was just like, we've come this far. Just it

835
00:42:52,445 --> 00:42:53,445
Speaker 2: doesn't matter anymore.

836
00:42:53,525 --> 00:42:58,605
Speaker 4: John, So I sort of do this awkward shuffle and

837
00:42:58,685 --> 00:43:01,485
Speaker 4: back in and then sort of cut the cord over here.

838
00:43:01,525 --> 00:43:04,045
Speaker 4: And by that stage, Sophie is there just yelling at

839
00:43:04,045 --> 00:43:05,645
Speaker 4: me saying I don't.

840
00:43:05,445 --> 00:43:10,125
Speaker 2: Care, and Johnnah was still like, nah, I can't.

841
00:43:09,965 --> 00:43:13,165
Speaker 1: Do it, I can't. He looks very funny that. But

842
00:43:13,245 --> 00:43:15,605
Speaker 1: what I noticed most was the difference in you and

843
00:43:16,485 --> 00:43:19,005
Speaker 1: when you were watching Hugo be born versus when you're

844
00:43:19,005 --> 00:43:21,565
Speaker 1: watching Spencer be born. And I know that one was

845
00:43:21,845 --> 00:43:24,005
Speaker 1: an operating room setting and it was surgery and it

846
00:43:24,165 --> 00:43:29,765
Speaker 1: was different, but you almost seem very understandably a little

847
00:43:29,765 --> 00:43:33,445
Speaker 1: bit blank is the wrong word, but detached, like you're

848
00:43:33,445 --> 00:43:36,205
Speaker 1: still protecting yourself, like you still can't quite believe it

849
00:43:36,285 --> 00:43:40,085
Speaker 1: with Hugo the first time, but with Spencer, your whole

850
00:43:40,125 --> 00:43:41,365
Speaker 1: face is cracked open.

851
00:43:41,885 --> 00:43:46,325
Speaker 2: I think the experience before Hugo, yes, with such a

852
00:43:46,685 --> 00:43:51,365
Speaker 2: traumatic bad Yeah, that that's the only thing I have

853
00:43:51,445 --> 00:43:54,805
Speaker 2: to go by, and so I'm just trying to be

854
00:43:54,965 --> 00:44:00,005
Speaker 2: cautious but still be excited. And then when Hugo arrived,

855
00:44:00,005 --> 00:44:02,525
Speaker 2: it was disbelief that this is finally real.

856
00:44:03,125 --> 00:44:04,965
Speaker 1: I could see that on your face because also the

857
00:44:05,045 --> 00:44:07,605
Speaker 1: last time you were in an operating theater you were

858
00:44:07,605 --> 00:44:13,325
Speaker 1: bleeding out. Yeah, so that must have been incredibly overwhelming

859
00:44:13,405 --> 00:44:17,205
Speaker 1: and traumatic and triggering and all of the things and beautiful.

860
00:44:17,245 --> 00:44:20,965
Speaker 2: And I didn't focus on any of that though. Yeah,

861
00:44:21,045 --> 00:44:24,125
Speaker 2: the day he was born, I didn't think about any

862
00:44:24,165 --> 00:44:28,365
Speaker 2: of that past trauma. I just thought I'm so excited

863
00:44:28,405 --> 00:44:31,165
Speaker 2: to meet him. I really hope it goes well. I

864
00:44:31,205 --> 00:44:34,045
Speaker 2: didn't even think, oh is this the theater that I

865
00:44:34,205 --> 00:44:36,365
Speaker 2: bled out in? Like, I didn't even think about any

866
00:44:36,405 --> 00:44:36,605
Speaker 2: of that.

867
00:44:36,725 --> 00:44:38,245
Speaker 1: Did you feel a bit like Ralph was in the

868
00:44:38,325 --> 00:44:39,045
Speaker 1: room somewhere?

869
00:44:39,565 --> 00:44:44,405
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I always think that, you know, he's around

870
00:44:44,485 --> 00:44:45,445
Speaker 2: watching his brothers.

871
00:44:45,765 --> 00:44:46,085
Speaker 1: Yeah.

872
00:44:46,125 --> 00:44:50,805
Speaker 2: Sometimes I like let myself think, oh, he'd be three now,

873
00:44:50,965 --> 00:44:54,605
Speaker 2: like the boys. Imagine having a toddler and twins or whatever.

874
00:44:55,285 --> 00:44:56,405
Speaker 2: That would be insane.

875
00:44:56,565 --> 00:44:58,885
Speaker 1: It's like a little ghost baby. He'll always be there.

876
00:44:59,005 --> 00:45:01,325
Speaker 1: He'll always be a little ghost baby. I still think

877
00:45:01,925 --> 00:45:05,565
Speaker 1: my daughter would be like twenty five, and I still

878
00:45:05,605 --> 00:45:09,285
Speaker 1: think about that sometimes. What you know, it's comforting though now,

879
00:45:10,005 --> 00:45:14,645
Speaker 1: Like it's not for me. It's not a deep sadness,

880
00:45:14,885 --> 00:45:17,965
Speaker 1: Like I like thinking of what she would maybe be like, you.

881
00:45:17,925 --> 00:45:20,645
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, like I make a cake for his birthday

882
00:45:20,685 --> 00:45:21,165
Speaker 2: every year.

883
00:45:21,725 --> 00:45:26,925
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Yeah yeah. Two babies at home twins essentially

884
00:45:27,285 --> 00:45:30,645
Speaker 1: like what five weeks apart? Yeah yeah, when you're out

885
00:45:30,885 --> 00:45:34,565
Speaker 1: with two babies, do you just say they're twins? I mean,

886
00:45:34,645 --> 00:45:35,565
Speaker 1: it's a long story.

887
00:45:35,605 --> 00:45:38,885
Speaker 2: Otherwise, I don't want to trauma dump on other people. Well, actually,

888
00:45:38,925 --> 00:45:40,965
Speaker 2: if they're not, and this is my story.

889
00:45:41,085 --> 00:45:43,925
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, I've just been polite.

890
00:45:46,165 --> 00:45:50,885
Speaker 2: They're twins to everyone. Yeah, even yeah. The only time

891
00:45:50,925 --> 00:45:53,445
Speaker 2: I ever tell the story is the pharmacists. The other

892
00:45:53,525 --> 00:45:56,005
Speaker 2: day I had to pick up medication for them both,

893
00:45:56,045 --> 00:45:59,125
Speaker 2: and he was just like, their scripts have different birthdays,

894
00:45:59,245 --> 00:46:02,965
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, yeah.

895
00:46:01,805 --> 00:46:02,445
Speaker 1: Very observant.

896
00:46:02,485 --> 00:46:07,565
Speaker 3: Pharmacists put their names down for childcare, and the childcare

897
00:46:07,605 --> 00:46:10,165
Speaker 3: person rang them and said, look, you probably tired and

898
00:46:10,365 --> 00:46:11,325
Speaker 3: haven't slept much.

899
00:46:11,565 --> 00:46:12,645
Speaker 2: Given the wrong days.

900
00:46:13,365 --> 00:46:16,005
Speaker 1: They seem to be born in different years. How's that? Yeah?

901
00:46:16,045 --> 00:46:17,725
Speaker 2: Everyone on the street, oh twins.

902
00:46:17,845 --> 00:46:20,845
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, December and January twenty two and twenty two

903
00:46:21,165 --> 00:46:21,805
Speaker 1: so different.

904
00:46:21,925 --> 00:46:24,925
Speaker 3: There was Hugo oh yeah, a big, big baby, and

905
00:46:24,965 --> 00:46:28,805
Speaker 3: there was Spencer, this tiny little newborn, and they go, twins.

906
00:46:28,805 --> 00:46:32,765
Speaker 2: Did you go, yeah, can look the same? They didn't say,

907
00:46:32,805 --> 00:46:35,925
Speaker 2: now are they identical? Do they look identical?

908
00:46:36,085 --> 00:46:38,725
Speaker 1: No? A lot of.

909
00:46:38,605 --> 00:46:42,005
Speaker 2: People struggle with the idea of that there are fraternal

910
00:46:42,045 --> 00:46:44,405
Speaker 2: twins that exist, and twins come walk different.

911
00:46:44,605 --> 00:46:46,765
Speaker 1: So many even though they're not twins.

912
00:46:46,845 --> 00:46:48,685
Speaker 2: I still think it's interesting that people don't.

913
00:46:50,605 --> 00:46:54,365
Speaker 1: Ny and the boys, what stories do you tell them?

914
00:46:54,445 --> 00:46:56,725
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys have no secrets. You're talking to me.

915
00:46:56,845 --> 00:46:58,925
Speaker 1: It's not like it's like, oh, don't mention it.

916
00:46:59,165 --> 00:47:02,565
Speaker 2: They're still quite young, so they don't really understand anything

917
00:47:02,765 --> 00:47:03,085
Speaker 2: or care.

918
00:47:03,245 --> 00:47:03,565
Speaker 1: Really.

919
00:47:03,885 --> 00:47:06,325
Speaker 2: There's a photo of Ralph in their nursery and I

920
00:47:06,525 --> 00:47:09,805
Speaker 2: point to him and I'm like, that's your brother. Have

921
00:47:10,205 --> 00:47:15,085
Speaker 2: a picture on our TV screen. That's a photo of me, John,

922
00:47:15,085 --> 00:47:18,925
Speaker 2: my mum and Sophie while they were both pregnant, and

923
00:47:19,005 --> 00:47:21,205
Speaker 2: I just point to the tummies and I'm like, that's

924
00:47:21,245 --> 00:47:25,245
Speaker 2: you in there. That's like you and those tummies. And

925
00:47:25,325 --> 00:47:31,205
Speaker 2: so hopefully they'll always just know and then when it

926
00:47:31,245 --> 00:47:35,285
Speaker 2: comes to explaining why that happened, it won't be a

927
00:47:35,365 --> 00:47:37,805
Speaker 2: shock later on in their life.

928
00:47:37,885 --> 00:47:39,565
Speaker 1: I was thinking about you guys, and I was just

929
00:47:39,605 --> 00:47:43,125
Speaker 1: thinking about you know, when you sat down and you're like, oh,

930
00:47:43,765 --> 00:47:46,045
Speaker 1: it's not even a big deal. It's like it's a nothing.

931
00:47:46,285 --> 00:47:50,045
Speaker 1: And I imagine at the time it was so huge

932
00:47:50,285 --> 00:47:53,245
Speaker 1: and the decision and how it's going to go and

933
00:47:54,845 --> 00:47:58,045
Speaker 1: explaining to people. But it's a little bit like, you know,

934
00:47:58,085 --> 00:47:59,925
Speaker 1: when you're pregnant, you think so much about the birth

935
00:47:59,965 --> 00:48:02,605
Speaker 1: and then that's just a day. You know, it's like,

936
00:48:02,645 --> 00:48:05,685
Speaker 1: how the baby's got here? Did they come vaginally? Did

937
00:48:05,685 --> 00:48:08,525
Speaker 1: they come cesarean? How did they It doesn't really matter.

938
00:48:08,525 --> 00:48:12,965
Speaker 1: They're your kids and your grandsons. Is that how you feel?

939
00:48:13,565 --> 00:48:16,245
Speaker 2: That's exactly how I feel. Like that's a distant memory.

940
00:48:16,285 --> 00:48:19,805
Speaker 3: I can't even remember, like the semantics that they're here

941
00:48:20,045 --> 00:48:21,605
Speaker 3: and this is this is what matters.

942
00:48:22,445 --> 00:48:26,165
Speaker 2: Some people have asked me how was it hard to

943
00:48:26,245 --> 00:48:30,405
Speaker 2: bond with them because you didn't carry them? And I

944
00:48:30,525 --> 00:48:34,365
Speaker 2: just respond with do you ask like the second parent

945
00:48:34,485 --> 00:48:37,525
Speaker 2: in any but like, for example, dads do you ask dads?

946
00:48:37,525 --> 00:48:38,845
Speaker 2: Do you find it hard to bond?

947
00:48:38,925 --> 00:48:39,845
Speaker 1: So true?

948
00:48:40,725 --> 00:48:43,685
Speaker 2: Like, no, I always knew that this was my baby. Yeah,

949
00:48:43,725 --> 00:48:45,925
Speaker 2: wed the whole time preparing for this. It was a

950
00:48:45,965 --> 00:48:49,365
Speaker 2: long journey to get to this. Yes, I have bonded

951
00:48:49,445 --> 00:48:50,925
Speaker 2: quite easily with them.

952
00:48:51,325 --> 00:48:55,285
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so happy for your beautiful family. What are

953
00:48:55,285 --> 00:48:56,965
Speaker 1: they like? Do they have different personalities?

954
00:48:57,365 --> 00:49:01,645
Speaker 2: Completely different? They are so much fun. I love toddlers.

955
00:49:02,525 --> 00:49:06,085
Speaker 2: It's really hard to take both of them out. Like

956
00:49:06,165 --> 00:49:08,845
Speaker 2: sometimes I'll just be like, oh, if I only had one,

957
00:49:08,885 --> 00:49:10,005
Speaker 2: this would be so much easier.

958
00:49:13,485 --> 00:49:14,405
Speaker 1: Should give one back.

959
00:49:14,565 --> 00:49:19,805
Speaker 2: Yeah, Spencer is crazy. He runs everywhere. He's so loud,

960
00:49:20,005 --> 00:49:23,245
Speaker 2: and he'll get in their full of personality. Hugo is

961
00:49:23,285 --> 00:49:26,965
Speaker 2: so chill. He loves just sitting there playing with things.

962
00:49:27,685 --> 00:49:28,925
Speaker 2: He's strawing.

963
00:49:29,885 --> 00:49:32,685
Speaker 1: They are here, they are right and jazzy. People ask

964
00:49:32,725 --> 00:49:35,285
Speaker 1: me this all the time. How's being a grandmar different

965
00:49:35,405 --> 00:49:36,165
Speaker 1: to being a mum?

966
00:49:36,525 --> 00:49:39,965
Speaker 2: Oh so different, so so different. The love you have

967
00:49:40,165 --> 00:49:40,685
Speaker 2: is different.

968
00:49:42,085 --> 00:49:44,365
Speaker 3: And I'm trying not to be over bearing. That's just

969
00:49:44,485 --> 00:49:47,605
Speaker 3: me anyway. But I'm so proud of them. I love

970
00:49:47,645 --> 00:49:49,685
Speaker 3: them with my heart and soul. I would do anything,

971
00:49:49,805 --> 00:49:51,805
Speaker 3: anything for them. I love spending time with them, no

972
00:49:51,885 --> 00:49:53,565
Speaker 3: matter how tired you are, me what kind of a

973
00:49:53,605 --> 00:49:56,325
Speaker 3: week you've had. As grandkids walk in the door, you

974
00:49:56,365 --> 00:49:59,725
Speaker 3: forget everything and you focus on them. And I intend

975
00:49:59,765 --> 00:50:02,085
Speaker 3: on being a big part of their lives. I hope,

976
00:50:02,525 --> 00:50:04,565
Speaker 3: I hope that the kids allow me to still and

977
00:50:04,765 --> 00:50:06,005
Speaker 3: they will. They're not moving anywhere.

978
00:50:06,125 --> 00:50:09,005
Speaker 1: Surely you have some extra privileges. I mean, God, if

979
00:50:09,005 --> 00:50:11,645
Speaker 1: you can't, is that as a little bit of a guilt, Like, hey,

980
00:50:11,885 --> 00:50:14,845
Speaker 1: remember that time I got cut in half? You could

981
00:50:14,845 --> 00:50:15,885
Speaker 1: have a baby, remember that.

982
00:50:16,245 --> 00:50:17,525
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to play that card.

983
00:50:17,605 --> 00:50:19,245
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's my scar. Look at this scar.

984
00:50:20,125 --> 00:50:23,965
Speaker 2: I've never had this before. You were saying, like, because

985
00:50:24,005 --> 00:50:25,845
Speaker 2: you don't have to like discipline them, and it's not

986
00:50:27,285 --> 00:50:29,405
Speaker 2: It's this love and playfulness.

987
00:50:29,485 --> 00:50:32,685
Speaker 1: Yeah, mish, it's all of the same love that you

988
00:50:32,765 --> 00:50:35,645
Speaker 1: have for your children, but none of the overwhelmings. Yeah,

989
00:50:35,685 --> 00:50:39,325
Speaker 1: and not one bit of mental load. It's pure joy, Yes,

990
00:50:39,605 --> 00:50:39,965
Speaker 1: it is.

991
00:50:40,045 --> 00:50:43,005
Speaker 2: I'm also so lucky that I have so much support

992
00:50:43,645 --> 00:50:47,565
Speaker 2: close by, like johnno is the best, Like I have

993
00:50:47,845 --> 00:50:50,805
Speaker 2: my parents, my in laws, like there is so much help.

994
00:50:51,205 --> 00:50:55,605
Speaker 2: And I totally understand how this time in people's lives

995
00:50:55,605 --> 00:50:59,925
Speaker 2: could be so overwhelming and so exhausting. But I'm so

996
00:51:00,045 --> 00:51:03,445
Speaker 2: lucky that there are so many hands to help because

997
00:51:03,565 --> 00:51:08,045
Speaker 2: I have been able to enjoy this part. Because of that,

998
00:51:08,405 --> 00:51:11,125
Speaker 2: I qualified for the attorney to leave Mia. I took

999
00:51:11,205 --> 00:51:12,965
Speaker 2: maternity leave, that's excellent.

1000
00:51:13,085 --> 00:51:15,525
Speaker 3: And then I took twelve months of my own age

1001
00:51:15,645 --> 00:51:19,805
Speaker 3: and we helped Sophie, her mother and Sharon was there.

1002
00:51:19,845 --> 00:51:22,165
Speaker 2: We were all there like like on a rotating roster.

1003
00:51:23,765 --> 00:51:26,525
Speaker 1: You guys what a family. I mean. They say it

1004
00:51:26,565 --> 00:51:29,405
Speaker 1: takes a village, because it does, but not everyone's lucky

1005
00:51:29,485 --> 00:51:32,485
Speaker 1: enough to have a village. And the lengths that you

1006
00:51:33,125 --> 00:51:36,445
Speaker 1: have all gone for each other and the love that's there.

1007
00:51:38,285 --> 00:51:41,805
Speaker 1: Ralph would be very proud. Yeah, he did good things

1008
00:51:41,925 --> 00:51:42,885
Speaker 1: in his short time.

1009
00:51:43,125 --> 00:51:44,605
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we're lucky we can.

1010
00:51:44,805 --> 00:51:47,405
Speaker 3: Science has progressed and we're able to do this sort

1011
00:51:47,405 --> 00:51:47,965
Speaker 3: of stuff.

1012
00:51:51,525 --> 00:51:53,325
Speaker 1: Now, if that didn't put a smile on your dial,

1013
00:51:53,565 --> 00:51:56,365
Speaker 1: I don't know what will. Because they're just to hoot

1014
00:51:56,485 --> 00:52:02,525
Speaker 1: those two. It's so funny. Jasmina is just I just

1015
00:52:02,725 --> 00:52:05,525
Speaker 1: and the tricks that her husband played on their friends,

1016
00:52:05,845 --> 00:52:09,645
Speaker 1: the whole story just filled me with joy. In interesting,

1017
00:52:09,645 --> 00:52:14,005
Speaker 1: there's been some conversations about the census coming up next

1018
00:52:14,085 --> 00:52:15,645
Speaker 1: year or the year after and what questions are going

1019
00:52:15,685 --> 00:52:18,605
Speaker 1: to be on the census and what makes a family

1020
00:52:18,725 --> 00:52:22,605
Speaker 1: and how the makeup of a family has really changed

1021
00:52:22,645 --> 00:52:25,565
Speaker 1: so much and people are making their own families in

1022
00:52:25,605 --> 00:52:28,685
Speaker 1: all different ways. And you know, they say it takes

1023
00:52:28,725 --> 00:52:32,085
Speaker 1: a village to raise a child, but as we just discovered,

1024
00:52:32,125 --> 00:52:34,845
Speaker 1: sometimes it takes a village to actually make a child.

1025
00:52:35,165 --> 00:52:40,245
Speaker 1: It's not always simple. And that question, when you ask

1026
00:52:40,325 --> 00:52:44,165
Speaker 1: a woman how many children she has, you'll get a

1027
00:52:44,285 --> 00:52:47,325
Speaker 1: very different answer if she has any, but even if

1028
00:52:47,365 --> 00:52:50,085
Speaker 1: she doesn't to if you ask how many times a

1029
00:52:50,125 --> 00:52:55,125
Speaker 1: woman's been pregnant, And to me, that tells a story

1030
00:52:55,165 --> 00:52:59,485
Speaker 1: that's so often invisible and when people think about their families.

1031
00:52:59,525 --> 00:53:01,525
Speaker 1: It's not just the people who are here, it's also

1032
00:53:01,645 --> 00:53:04,845
Speaker 1: the people who didn't get to be here, or who

1033
00:53:04,845 --> 00:53:08,365
Speaker 1: didn't get to stay here, who were gone too soon,

1034
00:53:08,765 --> 00:53:12,445
Speaker 1: or who we never got to know. And I just

1035
00:53:12,645 --> 00:53:16,125
Speaker 1: love the work around the way that the love that

1036
00:53:16,205 --> 00:53:19,325
Speaker 1: a mother had for her child, and a sister in

1037
00:53:19,405 --> 00:53:23,005
Speaker 1: law had for a woman who'd become so close to

1038
00:53:23,045 --> 00:53:25,445
Speaker 1: her and her friend, and everyone just got on with it.

1039
00:53:26,085 --> 00:53:26,805
Speaker 2: I just love it.

1040
00:53:27,565 --> 00:53:30,085
Speaker 1: I'd love to be pregnant again if my daughter needs

1041
00:53:30,125 --> 00:53:33,165
Speaker 1: a uterus, I've still got one, or my daughter in law, Jesse,

1042
00:53:33,245 --> 00:53:36,125
Speaker 1: are you listening, she'd love that. Well, she actually doesn't

1043
00:53:36,165 --> 00:53:39,285
Speaker 1: like being pregnant, so I've always wanted to be surrogate.

1044
00:53:39,725 --> 00:53:43,245
Speaker 1: I'm happy to donate my uterus, So, Jesse, if you

1045
00:53:43,285 --> 00:53:45,605
Speaker 1: want to just like get on with things and not

1046
00:53:45,685 --> 00:53:48,085
Speaker 1: have morning sickness and stuff, I'll take on for the

1047
00:53:48,125 --> 00:53:51,085
Speaker 1: team and carry your next baby. Or would that be weird?

1048
00:53:51,205 --> 00:53:56,365
Speaker 1: Oh No, not weird at all. Anyway. We love stories

1049
00:53:56,405 --> 00:54:00,285
Speaker 1: about different kinds of shaped families on no Filter. If

1050
00:54:00,285 --> 00:54:02,845
Speaker 1: you have one, we'd love to hear about it, and

1051
00:54:02,885 --> 00:54:04,765
Speaker 1: I will put a link in the show notes to

1052
00:54:04,805 --> 00:54:07,885
Speaker 1: some of the other beautiful stories like this that we

1053
00:54:08,005 --> 00:54:11,285
Speaker 1: have been proud to present. The executive producer of No

1054
00:54:11,405 --> 00:54:14,045
Speaker 1: Filter is Naima Brown and she's made her own little

1055
00:54:14,045 --> 00:54:17,605
Speaker 1: family with her husband and her dog up the North Coast.

1056
00:54:18,245 --> 00:54:22,205
Speaker 1: Sound production is by Tom Lyon. Ra I always do

1057
00:54:22,405 --> 00:54:25,325
Speaker 1: rah for Tom. He likes his family life just like

1058
00:54:25,445 --> 00:54:30,605
Speaker 1: his coffee. Unconventional. Oh clickbait, Tom. I'm your host, MEA

1059
00:54:30,685 --> 00:54:34,525
Speaker 1: Friedman and yeah, I would really be a sarrogate. Bring it,

1060
00:54:34,605 --> 00:54:35,085
Speaker 1: bring it on.