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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on Hi there, I'm Claire Murphy. This is

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Speaker 1: the hot Pod summer series of Mma MIA's daily news

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Speaker 1: podcast The Quickie. Now that we're in the new year

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Speaker 1: and new me part of our lives again, we thought

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Speaker 1: it was time to have a sit down discussion with

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Speaker 1: you about something we've all suffered at one stage in

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Speaker 1: our lives, but feel like it is time to absolutely

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Speaker 1: leave behind in twenty twenty four, and that is imposter syndrome.

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Speaker 1: Today we speak to a man who says he's cracked it,

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Speaker 1: that there is a way to hold imposter syndrome from

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Speaker 1: overtaking our thoughts so we can sail into the new

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Speaker 1: year with confidence. And of course I mean look at

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Speaker 1: you in absolute style. Imposter syndrome, that nagging feeling that

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Speaker 1: you're a fraud despite your accomplishments, is far more common

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Speaker 1: than you might think. Studies suggests that up to seventy

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Speaker 1: percent of people experience imposter feelings at some point in

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Speaker 1: their lives. But what exactly is it, how does it

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Speaker 1: affect people, and what can be done? About it. Imposter

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Speaker 1: syndrome is characterized by persistent self doubt and the inability

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Speaker 1: to internalize one's successes. Those experiencing it often feel like

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Speaker 1: they've somehow tricked others into thinking they're more competent or

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Speaker 1: intelligent than they really are. They fear being found out

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Speaker 1: as frauds, even in the face of clear evidence of

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Speaker 1: their abilities and accomplishments. Doctor Valerie Young, an expert on

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Speaker 1: imposter syndrome, describes it as that feeling that you're going

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Speaker 1: to be found out as a fraud at any moment,

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Speaker 1: that you don't really belong where you are, and that

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Speaker 1: you only got there through sheer luck or by fooling others.

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Speaker 1: While not officially recognized as a clinical disorder, imposter syndrome

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Speaker 1: can have very real impacts on mental health and career progression.

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Speaker 1: It often leads to anxiety, stress, and missed opportunities as

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Speaker 1: people hold them so back due to self doubt. Interestingly,

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Speaker 1: imposter syndrome tends to affect high achievers more than others.

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Speaker 1: The more accomplished someone becomes, the more likely they are

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Speaker 1: to feel like an impostor now. This may be because

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Speaker 1: high achievers set extremely high standards for themselves and are

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Speaker 1: more aware of how much they don't know in their

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Speaker 1: field too. It may be comforting to know that even

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Speaker 1: some of the world's most successful and famous people have

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Speaker 1: admitted to experiencing imposter syndrome. Michelle Obama, the former First

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Speaker 1: Lady of the United States, wrote in him memoir, I

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Speaker 1: still have a little imposter syndrome. It never goes away,

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Speaker 1: that feeling that you shouldn't take me that seriously, what

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Speaker 1: do I know? Award winning actor Tom Hanks says he

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Speaker 1: struggles with it too.

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Speaker 2: No matter who we are, no matter what we've done,

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Speaker 2: there comes a point where you think, how did I

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Speaker 2: get here? And how am I going to be able

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Speaker 2: to continue this? When are they going to discover that

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Speaker 2: I am, in fact of fraud and take everything away

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Speaker 2: from me.

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Speaker 1: Maya Angelou, the renowned poet and author, famously said I

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Speaker 1: have written eleven books, but each time I think, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're going to find out. Now, I've run a game

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Speaker 1: on everybody, and they're going to find me out. Even

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Speaker 1: Albert Einstein reportedly described himself as an involuntary swindler whose

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Speaker 1: work didn't deserve the attention it received. More recently, former

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Speaker 1: Facebook CEO Sheryl Sandberg admitted there are still days when

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Speaker 1: she wakes up feeling like a fraud, saying not sure

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Speaker 1: I should be where I am. And Emma Watson, known

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Speaker 1: for her role as Hermione Granger and the Harry Potter films,

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Speaker 1: have said, when I receive recognition for my acting, I

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Speaker 1: feel incredibly uncomfortable. I tend to turn in on myself.

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Speaker 1: I feel like an impostor So how do people try

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Speaker 1: to overcome imposter syndrome? Well experts recommend several strategies. First,

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Speaker 1: recognize that imposter feelings are common and normal. Simply knowing

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Speaker 1: it alone can help reduce shame and anxiety. Reframe your thoughts,

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Speaker 1: so instead of attributing success to luck, consciously acknowledge your

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Speaker 1: skills and hard work. Keep a record of your accomplishments

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Speaker 1: to look back on when that self doubt creeps in.

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Speaker 1: Talk about your feelings which trusted friends, family, or a therapist.

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Speaker 1: Bringing imposter thoughts into the open often reduces their power.

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Speaker 1: Stop comparing yourself to others. Focus on your own growth

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Speaker 1: and progress rather than measuring yourself against idealized versions of peers.

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Speaker 1: Embrace failure and mistakes as learning opportunities rather than evidence

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Speaker 1: of fraudulence. Remember no one is perfect, and finally, fake

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Speaker 1: it till you make it. Act confident even when you

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Speaker 1: don't feel it. Research shows that power posing and other

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Speaker 1: confident behaviors can actually increase feelings of confidence over time.

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Speaker 1: Peak performance strategist and behavioral scientist Darren Fleming is a

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Speaker 1: psychology graduate from the University of South Australia who also

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Speaker 1: studied law at Sydney UNI and philosophy at Oxford. He's

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Speaker 1: the author of the book Mindset Mastery Darren. The data

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Speaker 1: suggests that women are actually more prone to imposter syndrome

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Speaker 1: than men. Why do you think that is?

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Speaker 3: I think it comes through mainly that women are more

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Speaker 3: open and more honest, and they're willing to admit, hey,

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Speaker 3: I don't have this. The studies show that men experience

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Speaker 3: it as much, but they just simply don't admit to

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Speaker 3: it around.

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Speaker 1: So they wouldn't actually talk about it. So we presume

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Speaker 1: that men are experiencing it on the same level, but

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Speaker 1: they're just not going to tell us about it exactly. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: What negative impact does having self doubt like imposter syndrome

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Speaker 1: actually have on us? Especially? I guess when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about our careers.

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Speaker 3: It stops clever people speaking up. People who know what

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Speaker 3: they're talking about. They just keep quiet and they think, oh,

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Speaker 3: I don't have enough to share, or someone else will

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Speaker 3: know more, someone is better than me. When that person

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Speaker 3: is the best person to speak up, they keep their

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Speaker 3: smarts hidden. That's bad for the individual, it's bad for

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Speaker 3: the organization they work for, and it's bad for the

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Speaker 3: stakeholders who need their insight.

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Speaker 1: Now you have got five things that you can give

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Speaker 1: us insight with that do help deactivate imposter syndrome. But

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Speaker 1: before we get into those, what's difference between deactivating imposter

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Speaker 1: syndrome and overcoming imposter syndrome. Why is the word deactivat important?

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Speaker 3: The first reason it's important is it's a feeling, not

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Speaker 3: a fact. So if we look at the energetic sensations

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Speaker 3: we experience in our body their feelings, if we take

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Speaker 3: those feelings as facts, we're going to be misled. An

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Speaker 3: example of that is is skydiving scary? Well, some people

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Speaker 3: say yes, it's terrifying. Other people say it's the most

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Speaker 3: exhilarating thing you can do. So you can't say it

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Speaker 3: is a fact that it is scary. But if we

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Speaker 3: look at our feelings. What will end up happening is

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Speaker 3: we will take our feelings as a fact. So if

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Speaker 3: we try and overcome these feelings, what we're trying to

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Speaker 3: do is we're trying to fight our own brain body instrument,

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Speaker 3: and that's a fight you'll always lose. If, however, we

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Speaker 3: deactivate the feeling, we don't have to fight it. It's deactivated,

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Speaker 3: it's gone.

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Speaker 1: All right. That is the first of these five things

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Speaker 1: is fact versus feelings. Can you run us through the

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Speaker 1: other suggestions you have that help us deactivating post syndrome.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. The second thing to keep in mind is what

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Speaker 3: you resist persists. So if you have this energetic sensation

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Speaker 3: in your body that says, don't speak up in a meeting,

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Speaker 3: and this coming up to be deactivated, if you resist

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Speaker 3: deactivating it, it will persist. What that means is the

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Speaker 3: next time you go to a meeting, you'll have that

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Speaker 3: same energetic sensation come up because it wants to be deactivated.

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Speaker 3: You're then going to resist it, and then you're going

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Speaker 3: to go to the next meeting. It'll come up again

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Speaker 3: and again and again. It was Carl Jong the student

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Speaker 3: tole Of and eventually contemporary to Sigmund Freud, the grandfather

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Speaker 3: of modern psychology. He said, until we make the unconscious conscious,

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Speaker 3: it will continue to turn up in life, and we

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Speaker 3: will call it faith. When that energetic sensation is coming up,

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Speaker 3: it is the unconscious becoming conscious. If you deactivate it

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Speaker 3: by experiencing it, you will let that unconscious remain conscious.

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Speaker 3: You will stop resisting, and therefore it won't persist.

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Speaker 1: Can you just explain what experiencing it means? What practically

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Speaker 1: does that look like experiencing that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so a good way to understand it is you

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Speaker 3: can take your hand and just simply blow on your

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Speaker 3: hand and you feel the air blowing on your hand.

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Speaker 3: You don't make a story about it. You don't make

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Speaker 3: it right, you don't make it wrong. You don't judge it,

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Speaker 3: or you don't justify it. You just feel it. Do it.

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Speaker 3: Exactly the same with the energetic sensations in your body

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Speaker 3: when they come up. You might feel an energetic sensation

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Speaker 3: in your stomach that you sometimes label nervousness. Don't label it,

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Speaker 3: just feel it and it will come up. It will rise,

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Speaker 3: it will get higher and higher, and it eventually subsided.

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Speaker 3: It is about paying one hundred percent close attention to

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Speaker 3: what you're going through.

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Speaker 1: The next on the list from you is don't explain it.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean?

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Speaker 3: So when we experience an energetic sensation in our body

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Speaker 3: and we label it and then explain it, what happened

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Speaker 3: is it becomes the story, the identity. Oh the reason

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Speaker 3: I can't speak up in meetings is because when I

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Speaker 3: attended my first sales meeting, I said something and everyone

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Speaker 3: laughed at me. And when we explain why we are

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Speaker 3: feeling this energetic sensation, we are reinforcing it. We are

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Speaker 3: adopting that as an identity. Also, when you explain it

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Speaker 3: and you put a label on it, I am feeling nervous,

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Speaker 3: I'm feeling fearful, I'm feeling anxious. What is happening is

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Speaker 3: you are bringing forward all the stories of all the

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Speaker 3: time you've ever felt nervous, fearful, or anxious. You have

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Speaker 3: to deal with that. At the same time, if you're

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Speaker 3: trying to process an energetic sensation in your body, having

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Speaker 3: all of these stories from the past come forward certainly

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Speaker 3: won't help you process it. It will take you into

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Speaker 3: your cognitions and you want to be focusing on your sensations.

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Speaker 1: The final point on the list of how to deactivat

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Speaker 1: imposter syndrome is make it conscious, and that feels a

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Speaker 1: hypoc It's critical when we're talking about not giving it

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Speaker 1: labels and by not explaining it, how do you then

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Speaker 1: make it conscious if you're not doing those things.

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Speaker 3: So the moment you put a cognition on a sensation,

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Speaker 3: it becomes a story. So if you label it, you

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Speaker 3: have to deal with the story. If we look at

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Speaker 3: our brains from an evolutionary perspective, energetic sensations, emotions, feelings

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Speaker 3: are a far more ancient way of communicating than our cognitions,

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Speaker 3: which come from the more recent neocortics. So if we

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Speaker 3: want to make these energetic sensations conscious, we simply have

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Speaker 3: to experience them. Just feel potentially you blush, Just pay

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Speaker 3: attention to the blushing sensation that is happening in your face.

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Speaker 3: Don't make it right, don't make it wrong, just experience it.

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Speaker 3: It was said that the Buddha's moment of enlightenment was

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Speaker 3: when you realize that nothing in the universe is permanent.

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Speaker 3: Everything decays. You know, you and I won't be here

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Speaker 3: in one hundred year's time, and the buildings we're in

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Speaker 3: won't be here in one hundred years time. Our sun's

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Speaker 3: only got a five billion years left in it. The

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Speaker 3: same is true for these energetic sensations in our body.

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Speaker 3: They won't last forever. They'll last maybe a minute. They

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Speaker 3: pay attention to them, let them come up, and let

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Speaker 3: them subside. It was the stoics who said the obstacle

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Speaker 3: is the way. The energetic sensations that we experience in

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Speaker 3: our body are the obstacles. We have to deactivate them

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Speaker 3: so we can get to the other side of them.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think this way of addressing imposter syndrome

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Speaker 1: is more powerful compared to say traditional going to therapy

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Speaker 1: is in dealing with this particular barrier that we face.

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Speaker 3: There is a mechanism that sits behind these sensations coming

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Speaker 3: up in our body, and it's a feedback loop. Every

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Speaker 3: time that we have a thought react to an energetic

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Speaker 3: sensation in our body, we restart this feedback loop. And

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Speaker 3: this feedback loop stems asundsation, So thought sensation sensation goes

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Speaker 3: back to thought. If you go see a counselor if

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Speaker 3: you talk about it, what is happening is you're just

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Speaker 3: continually running that feedback loop. And if it's continually running.

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Speaker 3: You're not giving it an opportunity to deactivate itself.

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Speaker 1: Darren, have you ever experienced imposter syndrome?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, lots of time at high school, during my career,

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Speaker 3: and when I was sailing for Australia. Many many times

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Speaker 3: I just thought, you know, who am I to be here?

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Speaker 3: I'm not good enough at leat is. Look at those people.

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Speaker 3: I've got a better boat than I have, They've got

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Speaker 3: more experience.

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Speaker 1: How did this method change your view on imposter syndrome?

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Speaker 3: Understanding how our brain body instrument operates showed me a

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Speaker 3: way to deactivate what is going on. If we simply

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Speaker 3: get caught in the stories in our heads, if we

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Speaker 3: get caught in giving labels to these energetic sensations, we're

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Speaker 3: just going to keep being caught in impops syndrome. When

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Speaker 3: I understood this process, I came to the realization that

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Speaker 3: what if imposter syndrome is a feature of our brain

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Speaker 3: body instrument, not a bug. If we treat imposter syndrome

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Speaker 3: as a bug, it's something we constantly battle against, and

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Speaker 3: battling against imposter syndrome is why we go home exhausted

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Speaker 3: and stressed at the end of the day. But if

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Speaker 3: it's a feature and you can learn to deactivate it,

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Speaker 3: you can actually step forward and progress in your career,

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Speaker 3: your family life, your personal life, whatever it happens to be.

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Speaker 1: While imposter syndrome is a common experience, it doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to be debilitating. By recognizing these feelings for what they are,

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Speaker 1: reframing negative thoughts, and seeking support we're needed, most people

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Speaker 1: can learn to manage imposter feelings and stop them from

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Speaker 1: holding you back. Remember, feeling like an imposter doesn't actually

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Speaker 1: make you one. More often than not, it's a sign

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Speaker 1: that you're pushing yourself. You're growing and achieving really good things.

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Speaker 1: So next time that voice of self doubt pipes up,

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Speaker 1: just take a moment to acknowledge your accomplishments and remind

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Speaker 1: yourself you belong right where you are. Thanks for taking

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Speaker 1: the time to feed your mind with us today. The

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Speaker 1: quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy and our executive

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Speaker 1: producer Taylor Strano, with audio production by Tom Lyon.