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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mom and mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: Hey out louders, it's me. I've missed you this week.

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Speaker 1: I have not been in your ears. I've been off

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Speaker 1: a little bit sick, a little bit doing other things.

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Speaker 1: But you've been in very capable hands with Amelia and

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Speaker 1: em as well as Holly and Jesse. Who are you know?

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Speaker 1: They're okay. I miss them and love them all. But

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Speaker 1: I wanted to share with you an episode of No

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Speaker 1: Filter that came out this week in case you missed

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Speaker 1: it about Ballerina Farm, which is a topic that I

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Speaker 1: know a lot about. Lauders have said they are very

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Speaker 1: interested in when we've done it on the show, it

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Speaker 1: has been hugely popular. And Ballerina Farm, of course is

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Speaker 1: the farm. It is an actual farm, and Hannah Nielman

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Speaker 1: is the ballerina of Ballerina Farm, who is a trad wife.

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Speaker 1: She has eight children, and it is a whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy this episode of No Filter, and if you want

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Speaker 1: to hear more interviews that I do, follow No Filter

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Speaker 1: and you can have even more of me in your years.

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Speaker 1: How far away. Was it from your life?

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Speaker 2: Very different. I'm twenty nine and I now live in

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Speaker 2: New York, but had been living in London at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of the year.

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Speaker 1: This is journalist Megan Agnew.

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Speaker 2: And I don't have any children, and I'm not married, and.

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Speaker 1: You have a career outside the home, and I.

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Speaker 2: Have a career and unmarried and childless at the same

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Speaker 2: age as my mum was when she was married and

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Speaker 2: with children.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to her today about trad wives. One trad

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Speaker 1: wife in particular, perhaps the queen of the tradwives, Hannah

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Speaker 1: and Nielman. She's thirty four and she runs Ballerina Farm

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Speaker 1: with her husband Daniel, who's thirty five, and their eight children.

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Speaker 1: They live in Utah, which is often referred to as

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Speaker 1: Mormon Country because a lot of Mormons live there, and

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Speaker 1: Hannah and daniela both Mormons. Ballerina Farm is an actual

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Speaker 1: farm with actual animals which are farmed for food, and

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Speaker 1: Hannah is an actual Ballerina at least she was until

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Speaker 1: about after child number two or three, when she stopped

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Speaker 1: dancing professionally and switched to farm life with her family.

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Speaker 1: Ballerina Farm, though, is also a brand, a huge brand

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Speaker 1: with millions of Instagram followers, where Hannah makes content about

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Speaker 1: her farm life, the meals that she makes from scratch,

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Speaker 1: the babies she births in her bedroom, the farm work

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Speaker 1: that she and her husband do, and all the many

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Speaker 1: many children that she homeschools. You'll see all of that

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Speaker 1: on the Ballerina Farm Instagram account. Here's the audio of

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Speaker 1: one of Hannah's reels about what an average day for

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Speaker 1: her looks like. This one has been liked by one

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty thousand people.

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Speaker 3: I wake up, nurse for Joe, look with the kids

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Speaker 3: bed and ready for a school which is in a

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Speaker 3: little schoolhouse we have here on the farm. Then today

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Speaker 3: I decided to make some soup.

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Speaker 1: Now, the images that you see when you watch this

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Speaker 1: reel are almost like a country music video.

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Speaker 3: Entered gathering good.

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Speaker 1: It's this depiction of a very wholesome Americana lifestyle. Big

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Speaker 1: ranch under a big wide open sky, happy kids running barefoot. Everywhere.

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Speaker 1: We see Hannah exercising and nursing her youngest baby, picking

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Speaker 1: fresh produce from the garden, cooking and parenting. And there's

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Speaker 1: also a fair amount of Ballerina Farm product placement because

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Speaker 1: they sell protein powder and meat and sour dough starters,

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Speaker 1: as well as merch through their Ballerina Farm website, and

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Speaker 1: all of it's a very sort of soft focus, aesthetically pleasing,

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Speaker 1: simple vibe. Hannah never breaks a sweat or looks stressed

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Speaker 1: or overwhelmed or even disheveled, and as you're about to

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Speaker 1: hear in this episode, that's not by accident. Because to

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Speaker 1: sell products, the Ballerina Farm sells a lifestyle, and the

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Speaker 1: lifestyle it sells is that of a traditional wife and mother.

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Speaker 1: Some even call it an ideology.

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Speaker 2: If you've been on social media, you've probably seen the

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Speaker 2: hashtag beautiful women cooking.

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Speaker 1: Cleaning, and embracing life as stay at home moms. These glossy,

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Speaker 1: gorgeous videos showcasing life seemingly plucked out of history. But

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Speaker 1: for all the instagramminess of tradwives and their proliferation on

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Speaker 1: social media, it's rare for journalists to get access to them.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's because it's a hard image to keep

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Speaker 1: up all day long in front of strangers. But somehow,

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Speaker 1: The Times journalist Megan Agnew did get access. She spent

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Speaker 1: a whole day at Ballerina Farm with Hannah Nielman and

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Speaker 1: her family. And then she wrote a profile for The

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Speaker 1: Times that went viral and sparked a million think pieces

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Speaker 1: about Ballerina farm and tradwives. And what was the reaction

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Speaker 1: from Hannah and her husband Daniel after the profile came out.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that they were thrilled.

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Speaker 1: Yeah from mom and Maya, this is no filter. I'm

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Speaker 1: meya Friedman, And let's get into it by starting with

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Speaker 1: some basics. What even is a trad wife and how

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Speaker 1: is a tradwife different to say, a housewife or a

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Speaker 1: stay at home mother.

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Speaker 2: My feeling about it is that it's about the public

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Speaker 2: way of being a housewife. So you can be a housewife,

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Speaker 2: but that's not being a trad wife because tradwife is

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Speaker 2: performing it on the internet for other people's consumption and

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Speaker 2: as a product that has the sort of shop front.

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Speaker 1: I guess when I interview former tradwives who've sort of

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Speaker 1: escaped from what they call the cult of trad wifery

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Speaker 1: with free all roads tend to lead back to the

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Speaker 1: Duggers in terms of you know, Michelle and Jimbob who

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Speaker 1: with all of their children and that reality show that

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Speaker 1: was the first time we saw this tread wife life

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Speaker 1: being performed is that your understanding of where it all began.

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Speaker 2: I saw it beginning in lockdown, really on social media,

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Speaker 2: specifically when lots of people went back to this really

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Speaker 2: earthy existence of having their fingers in the soil and

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Speaker 2: making every morning. And we really wanted to do that,

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Speaker 2: and we really wanted to escapism, and I think we

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Speaker 2: really sought it out, and you know, we were like

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Speaker 2: on zoom calls and we kind of wanted that alternate lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: But I also think it's been rumbling on in the

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Speaker 2: background through pop culture as well. You look at like

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Speaker 2: the Kudashians, for example, who are a product that sells

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Speaker 2: glamorous motherhood and easy motherhood. You know, you don't see

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Speaker 2: the nannies and you don't see either things happening. They

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Speaker 2: are occasionally referenced, but this is not a new thing

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Speaker 2: that's just appeared out of nowhere. It's really underwritten by

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Speaker 2: lots of other sort of pop culture politics, reality TV,

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Speaker 2: weird random things like COVID that we can't predict. So

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Speaker 2: I think it's sort of been rambling on for a while.

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Speaker 1: Would you consider it like mostly an American phenomenon. It's

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Speaker 1: certainly been boosted by Instagram because you're right. A big

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Speaker 1: part of the trad wife aesthetic is the aesthetics. So

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Speaker 1: Michelle Duger certainly didn't tick that box because no one

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Speaker 1: wanted to look that kind of amish depiction of what

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Speaker 1: a traditional wife look like. There's also this overlay of

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Speaker 1: hotness to treadwives, isn't there. How do you say that?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of a man's dream, right, It's like,

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Speaker 2: she can have all of my children that I impregnate

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Speaker 2: her with, and she's a beauty queen and she turns

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Speaker 2: out well, and she looks like this while she's on

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Speaker 2: my arm, and that's the perfect presentation of American family values,

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Speaker 2: which I think you're right. I think in the US

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Speaker 2: the emphasis on family is so strong, particularly as you

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Speaker 2: know a foreigner landing here from the UK. Comparatively, it's

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Speaker 2: really core to existence and also to existence since you know,

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Speaker 2: the pioneers went west, it was drawing a boundary of

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Speaker 2: your own land and building a house on it. And

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Speaker 2: you know, the politics, the darker politics, you know, obviously

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Speaker 2: exists alongside that building a house on it and filling

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Speaker 2: it with your family and pro creating this brilliant, pioneering

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Speaker 2: American society. So it's really built on that. And you

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Speaker 2: can hear it as well in the current election from

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Speaker 2: the Republicans talking about the importance of family and JD.

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Speaker 2: Vance talking about Kamala Harris not having a stake in

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Speaker 2: the world because she doesn't have children, and it all

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Speaker 2: harks back to this importance placed on nuclear, heterosexual family

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Speaker 2: by a certain aspect of American society.

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Speaker 1: How does Mormonism overlay because I've been thinking about past

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Speaker 1: incarnations of this. Of course, there was Martha Stewart, who

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Speaker 1: was that sort of waspy whitebread homemaker, you know, making

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Speaker 1: it all look aesthetically pleasing, but there wasn't the hotness

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Speaker 1: with her. And then there was Nigella Lawson, which is

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Speaker 1: of course, you know, her whole tongue in cheek domestic

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Speaker 1: Goddess series in her book. But that felt different because

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Speaker 1: she was clearly How was that different because it was Nigella.

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Speaker 2: Was naughty and is naughty, and she does everything with

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Speaker 2: this wink and she kind of makes shortcuts, and she

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Speaker 2: like crushes packets of salt and vinegar crests on top

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Speaker 2: of her dinner parties pasta bake that she's just done,

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Speaker 2: and she like Wham's whole packs of butter into things

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Speaker 2: and yeah, and it's all about it's about being a listen.

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Speaker 2: It's about doing the things that you shouldn't do, which

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Speaker 2: is also within the confines of another sort of femininity.

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Speaker 2: It's not straightforward, but it is about naughty nurse and

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Speaker 2: it's about cutting corners, and it's about sort of making

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Speaker 2: it all look good but being a bit cheeky and

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Speaker 2: probably a great shag, you know, kind of like packaged

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Speaker 2: that with all of that and U and that was

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Speaker 2: thrilling in that era. Before that, we had Delia Smith

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Speaker 2: who was like very colored between the lines and it

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Speaker 2: was about baking your cakes in the ark when you

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Speaker 2: do it like this and you follow the instructions, and

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Speaker 2: she was very posh. And then Nigella was yeah, cheeky

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Speaker 2: and right.

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Speaker 1: So Nigella was sexy, but it wasn't that traditional model

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Speaker 1: of femininity with I guess it would be cool, you know.

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Speaker 1: It's often referred to as modesty.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And also the new wave of tradwise or

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Speaker 2: the wave of tradwise and not sexual There is no

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Speaker 2: sexuality to them at all. They're very beautiful, but there's

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Speaker 2: no sexuality.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about Hannah. Hannah Nielman is unequivocally the

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Speaker 1: queen of tradwives. How did you first hear about bellerin

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Speaker 1: a farm? And Hannah?

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Speaker 2: I first heard about her when she did the New

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Speaker 2: York Times interview in January February, shortly after or during

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Speaker 2: the pageant, when she was twelve days postpartum, and that

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Speaker 2: went pretty viral. And then in those months after, I

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Speaker 2: started getting fed loads of content by her, and my

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Speaker 2: friends were sending me things like how funny is this?

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Speaker 2: And it would be Nara Smith making chewing gum and

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Speaker 2: talking in this sort of really breathy voice, and it

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Speaker 2: all just seemed quite mad, and you couldn't really.

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Speaker 1: Believe how far away was it from your life? Like

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Speaker 1: how old are you? What's your life like? I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in the juxtaposition.

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Speaker 2: Very different. I'm twenty nine and I now live in

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Speaker 2: New York, but had been living in London at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of the year. And I don't have any children,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not married, and.

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Speaker 1: You have a career outside that, and I have a.

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Speaker 2: Career and I am unmarried and childless at the same

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Speaker 2: age as my mum was when she was married and

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Speaker 2: with children. So there's a diversion there. And I had

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Speaker 2: lots of conversations with my mum actually through this, because

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Speaker 2: she was like, I'm a trad wife. I was a

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Speaker 2: trad wife, you know. She stayed at home for a

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Speaker 2: period of time to look after us. So we had

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Speaker 2: lots of conversations about that. And a lot of the

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Speaker 2: pushback from the article and the controversy from the people

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Speaker 2: who felt it was so was around the fact that

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Speaker 2: I was in some way judging their lifestyle who had

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Speaker 2: chosen these traditional models. But from conversations with my mom

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Speaker 2: and her friends and other people, it is a structure

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Speaker 2: that enables, not always, but enables for the issues. You know,

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Speaker 2: like you can and this is not my parents, just

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Speaker 2: for the record, but not having access to money in

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Speaker 2: a household has the potential to lead to really serious

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Speaker 2: financial and emotional abuse. Or not having a boss separate

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Speaker 2: to your husband or your children can also do the same.

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Speaker 2: This is a structure that actually deserves more scrutiny. That's

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Speaker 2: not to say that we can't choose it. But I

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Speaker 2: do think and still believe now despite the endless DMS

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Speaker 2: that I received saying otherwise, but I still do believe

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Speaker 2: that it deserves a little bit more eyebrow raising because

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Speaker 2: we've seen it before, We've been sold this before, and

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Speaker 2: we've been missold it before, and I think that we

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Speaker 2: just need to slightly go into it, like not completely

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Speaker 2: blinkered by what's happened previously.

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Speaker 1: Before I ask you about your interview with the Nielmans.

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Speaker 1: For anyone who's not familiar with Hannah and Bellerina Farm,

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Speaker 1: can you tell us who she was before she became

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Speaker 1: famous as Bellerina Farm. What's her origin story?

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Speaker 2: She was born into a Mormon family sort of near

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Speaker 2: to Salt Lake City, and she was the eighth of

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Speaker 2: nine children, and they were pretty working class family. They

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Speaker 2: owned a sort of mum and pop flower shop basically,

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Speaker 2: and she was homeschooled and gravitated very naturally towards ballet.

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Speaker 2: Her brothers actually both went on to have a really

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Speaker 2: successful shed building company, so they were really naturally entrepreneurial family,

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Speaker 2: as with the Pairent, and so she gravitated towards ballet,

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Speaker 2: and over various summer holidays, got these sort of summer

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Speaker 2: camps at Juilliard and eventually qualified to do ballet at Juilliard,

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Speaker 2: which is this incredibly prestigious performing art school in New

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Speaker 2: York on the Upper East Side, West side, one of

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Speaker 2: the sides.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not going to contradict. You don't worry.

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Speaker 2: Anyway. Super fancy and it's very lofty, And that's what

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Speaker 2: she did. And she wanted to be a ballerina, and

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Speaker 2: she wanted to live in New York City, which seemed wild.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a long way from Utah, and it's

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Speaker 2: a long way from Mormon life, though she did live

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Speaker 2: with other Mormon girls who she knew from church.

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Speaker 1: Do we know much about her life in New York

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Speaker 1: when she was studying ballet.

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Speaker 2: It was pretty church orientated, and I think in Mormon

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Speaker 2: culture that is quite important.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't a sex in the city, you know,

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Speaker 1: to New York and living that kind of carry Breadshaw life.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a sex in the city life. But she

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Speaker 2: also said like something along the lines of New York

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Speaker 2: was my dream and New York is where I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be, So there obviously was a bit of that

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Speaker 2: in her. And she said when they still go back

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Speaker 2: now with all the kids, they go back every year

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Speaker 2: or whatever. She was like, I love it. I just

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Speaker 2: love the energy, and I love the vibe and I

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Speaker 2: love being there. So she was obviously really taken by it.

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Speaker 2: And you know, if you're taken by New York, then

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Speaker 2: you are also taken by the sort of sex and

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Speaker 2: city late night it's lots going on kind of vibe

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Speaker 2: because that's everywhere. It is sort of implicit in the

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Speaker 2: city too.

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Speaker 1: So what about Daniel Neielman. Where did he grow up?

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Speaker 1: He had similar Mormon origins, but he grew up in

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Speaker 1: a very different way.

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Speaker 2: He grew up in a very very rich family. So

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Speaker 2: his father was the founder of Jet Blue, which is

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Speaker 2: a an airline in the US and various others and

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Speaker 2: was incredibly success. They grew up in Connecticut, which is

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Speaker 2: real sort of commuter belt. You know, there are so

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Speaker 2: many associations with Connecticut, and he would get on the

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Speaker 2: train every day and go to New York. And Daniel,

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Speaker 2: as a teenager would get on the train with his

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Speaker 2: friends and go to the city. And so he lived

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Speaker 2: a life that was closer to it all and a

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Speaker 2: bit more integrated, I suppose, with secular culture. And they

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Speaker 2: had a suburban life. They didn't have any animals. They

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Speaker 2: had no animals. He had no family who were farmers,

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Speaker 2: but he dreamt of this big wildlife on a farm

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Speaker 2: way way out in the west. They had come from

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Speaker 2: Utah though his family and they have since returned there,

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Speaker 2: so they had a base there, and he at the

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Speaker 2: time was at university in Utah when he met Hannah

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Speaker 2: and was looking. I suppose to work at one of

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Speaker 2: his father's companies. That's what he was going to graduate onto.

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Speaker 2: How did they meet, So, as they told me when

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Speaker 2: I was there, they met a basketball game, like a

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Speaker 2: college basketball game. They were introduced by mutual friends.

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Speaker 1: So we were met at the basketball game. I was

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Speaker 1: doing Thanksgiving break.

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Speaker 3: I was going to school in New York and Daniel

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Speaker 3: was going to school in Utah, so we kind of

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Speaker 3: like switched thats so I went home.

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Speaker 1: I went back to school the following weekend.

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Speaker 2: Daniel was like, oh my god, yes, let's go. I

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Speaker 2: want to marry this woman.

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Speaker 4: I was instantly smitten.

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Speaker 2: Hannah didn't want to date, didn't want to do that yet.

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Speaker 3: It took Hannah longer to realize that we.

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Speaker 4: Were so maids.

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Speaker 2: He texted her, He was like, please, comma date with me.

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Speaker 2: She said no for six months.

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Speaker 4: So we didn't see each other for six months. After

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Speaker 4: the first night we met, she.

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Speaker 2: Was back in Utah and mentioned to him that she

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Speaker 2: was flying to New York City on this flight from

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Speaker 2: Salt Lake and he said, oh, that's so funny. I'm

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Speaker 2: on the same flight. So they went and they checked in,

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Speaker 2: and she was like, this is so weird. We're sitting

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Speaker 2: on seats next to each other. And he had made

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Speaker 2: a call to jat Blue, which is the airline they're.

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Speaker 1: Flying with, which had found mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which as father owned, And they sat next to

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Speaker 2: each other and that was their first proper date, which

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Speaker 2: is a five and a half hour's quite long flight.

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Speaker 2: I have done it, So five and a half hour flight,

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Speaker 2: it's quite a long date where you and you can't

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Speaker 2: go anywhere. And that was their first date.

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Speaker 1: And so how did things progress from there? Because it's

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Speaker 1: interesting when you said she didn't want to date, she

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Speaker 1: clearly knew for her what dating meant and that it

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Speaker 1: would probably lead to marriage, which would lead to children,

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Speaker 1: and she was still focused on her career.

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Speaker 2: And this is a Mormon culture too, so you're right,

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Speaker 2: it's that you don't date in the same way as

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Speaker 2: I would. For example, it's much more proper and it's

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Speaker 2: much more chaste. And it's much more. You have to

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Speaker 2: be respectable, so often it leads to marriage. And that

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have been an unusual time for them to have

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Speaker 2: got married. In fact, lots of people get married earlier.

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Speaker 2: Because one Yeah, and they dated and he said, we

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Speaker 2: need to get married, we need to get married, and

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Speaker 2: she wanted to date for a year and then finish

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Speaker 2: her course and then get married, and he said that's

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Speaker 2: not going to work. So they got married three months later.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think he said that? Is that because

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Speaker 1: the subtext to me on that was that I can't

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Speaker 1: wait that long to have sex with you.

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Speaker 2: I did also think.

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Speaker 1: That, Yeah, because it's like when he said that won't

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Speaker 1: work for me, I mean like there's not a lot

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Speaker 1: of guys who are like, I really want to get married.

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Speaker 1: It's urgent.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And they also said, you know, we were so in

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Speaker 2: love with each other and we couldn't stay away from

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Speaker 2: each other. Yeah, So that is some of the subtexts

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Speaker 2: that I read too. But I also think that he

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Speaker 2: probably just wanted to lock it down. Yeah. You know,

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00:21:04,447 --> 00:21:07,847
Speaker 2: she was a cat, She's gorgeous, and she comes from

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Speaker 2: a good family in Utah and also had the sort

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Speaker 2: of glamour of New York too, which reflected his own

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00:21:14,847 --> 00:21:18,567
Speaker 2: life in a way. I mean, I'm just reading into

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Speaker 2: what they told me, So this is just me speculating,

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Speaker 2: But I think he just wanted to lock it down.

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Speaker 2: And I wonder if she did a bit as well.

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Speaker 2: You know, it wouldn't have been respectable necessarily for her

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Speaker 2: to date it for a year. She wasn't an unwilling

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Speaker 2: participant in all of this, but that was just how

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Speaker 2: the stick went. That was the bit that they did

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Speaker 2: and the story that they told. So it's difficult to

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Speaker 2: know who felt what.

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Speaker 1: When I like that it subverts that idea of the

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Speaker 1: you know, young woman trying to lock down the rich

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Speaker 1: guy and him wanting to keep his freedom until the

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Speaker 1: last possible minute. He was very much the one who

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Speaker 1: wanted the commitment. And so then what happened after they

382
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Speaker 1: got married. Did she give up her dancing career.

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Speaker 2: They stayed in New York for a couple of years,

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Speaker 2: and they had their first and second child there, I think,

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Speaker 2: and then they moved to Brazil because Daniel was made

386
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Speaker 2: the chairman of one of his father's companies, which is

387
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Speaker 2: a security business, and Brazil's quite a big outlet finally

388
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Speaker 2: for Mormon missions. So instead of a gap year, a

389
00:22:30,007 --> 00:22:32,127
Speaker 2: lot of Mormons go and do mission and they work

390
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Speaker 2: with local community and they volunteer and they also sort

391
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Speaker 2: of spread the word of the Latter day Saints. So

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Speaker 2: there's a large community of Mormons in Brazil, and they

393
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Speaker 2: also have a lot of business there. So they went

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Speaker 2: to live there and she had a third child, and

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Speaker 2: then that is when she gave up ballet.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's amazing. There's not a lot of dancers

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Speaker 1: who come back even after one child. She you know,

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Speaker 1: you writing your piece that she kept dancing and she

399
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Speaker 1: stayed at Juliard even when she was pregnant and was

400
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Speaker 1: the first dancer to do so.

401
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean she said that it was really difficult.

402
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Speaker 2: It was like it's one of those things that you

403
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Speaker 2: just can't do when you have babies and when you

404
00:23:11,807 --> 00:23:16,927
Speaker 2: have children, which is a universal experience. I'm sure for

405
00:23:17,047 --> 00:23:20,287
Speaker 2: women that it's a difficult career to continue, not impossible,

406
00:23:20,287 --> 00:23:23,407
Speaker 2: a bit difficult. And so I think there was some

407
00:23:23,607 --> 00:23:26,687
Speaker 2: relief when she decided to give it up. But I

408
00:23:26,767 --> 00:23:30,567
Speaker 2: went back through her blogs. She had this blog when

409
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Speaker 2: they moved there, and in the early days of her

410
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Speaker 2: career as a sort of online influencer, I suppose. And

411
00:23:39,647 --> 00:23:42,687
Speaker 2: it's really cute. It's just an account, a really honest

412
00:23:42,807 --> 00:23:45,767
Speaker 2: written account of her days and what she does and

413
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Speaker 2: having babies. And there was real heartbreak about her figuring

414
00:23:51,687 --> 00:23:55,447
Speaker 2: out her new identity as a mother and the long

415
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Speaker 2: days with the children, And as the blog post goes on,

416
00:24:00,287 --> 00:24:03,887
Speaker 2: she says something like, you know, I made the decision

417
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Speaker 2: not to see this as a sacrifice. I'm making the

418
00:24:08,207 --> 00:24:11,247
Speaker 2: active decision to see this as a gift that I

419
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Speaker 2: am bringing down the souls from heaven and embodying them

420
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Speaker 2: in my children. And we are creating something bigger, And

421
00:24:18,727 --> 00:24:21,927
Speaker 2: we are creating a legacy, a family legacy, and how

422
00:24:21,967 --> 00:24:25,327
Speaker 2: important is that? And there's nothing else more important. So

423
00:24:25,447 --> 00:24:29,367
Speaker 2: you could see the shift from her really struggling with

424
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Speaker 2: it and losing that identity of her own as a ballerina,

425
00:24:32,447 --> 00:24:35,287
Speaker 2: to then reframing it essentially.

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Speaker 1: In a moment. Bellerina farm is big business and Hannah

427
00:24:40,967 --> 00:24:44,647
Speaker 1: and Daniel are super savvy. So is the treadwife thing

428
00:24:44,727 --> 00:24:47,487
Speaker 1: really just a marketing tool or are they for real?

429
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Speaker 1: More of my conversation with journalist Megan Agnew in Just

430
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Speaker 1: a Tick, So I didn't realize that she had an

431
00:24:56,447 --> 00:25:00,847
Speaker 1: online presence before she got married and before Ballerina Farm

432
00:25:00,927 --> 00:25:04,207
Speaker 1: was born. How was that brand, Ballerina Farm born.

433
00:25:04,607 --> 00:25:06,967
Speaker 2: The name or the brand itself or both.

434
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Speaker 1: Well both of it? Like how did she go? You

435
00:25:08,967 --> 00:25:10,927
Speaker 1: know that, I know his dream was to live in

436
00:25:10,967 --> 00:25:13,527
Speaker 1: a farm, hers wasn't, and they ended up doing it,

437
00:25:13,567 --> 00:25:16,687
Speaker 1: which a lot of couples make sacrifices like that to

438
00:25:16,767 --> 00:25:18,847
Speaker 1: pursue one partner's dream and then the other one does

439
00:25:18,887 --> 00:25:21,847
Speaker 1: often get on board with it. But how did that happen?

440
00:25:21,887 --> 00:25:24,447
Speaker 1: And where did Bellerina Farm come from? Because by the

441
00:25:24,447 --> 00:25:27,007
Speaker 1: time I heard of it, it was just this huge

442
00:25:27,567 --> 00:25:30,567
Speaker 1: viral sensation and she had millions of followers.

443
00:25:31,007 --> 00:25:35,607
Speaker 2: It was a really conscious maneuver. So she had been

444
00:25:35,647 --> 00:25:38,767
Speaker 2: blogging and while they were in Brazil, she really fell

445
00:25:38,807 --> 00:25:41,207
Speaker 2: in love with animals and farming. So, as you say,

446
00:25:41,367 --> 00:25:44,927
Speaker 2: this was a transition that was made voluntarily, Like she

447
00:25:45,007 --> 00:25:47,167
Speaker 2: wasn't dragged onto the farm in the middle of Utah.

448
00:25:47,647 --> 00:25:52,207
Speaker 2: So then they decide to move back and they buy

449
00:25:52,247 --> 00:25:56,447
Speaker 2: this first farm and she starts blogging about it and

450
00:25:56,447 --> 00:25:58,487
Speaker 2: there's not even there's not running water on this farm,

451
00:25:58,527 --> 00:26:02,847
Speaker 2: there's no building, there's nothing it's like completely raw land.

452
00:26:03,487 --> 00:26:07,047
Speaker 2: And every day after Daniel's work and after the kids

453
00:26:07,047 --> 00:26:10,567
Speaker 2: have done school, they drove an hour from this basement

454
00:26:10,607 --> 00:26:14,847
Speaker 2: apartment they were renting, and she cooked meals on an

455
00:26:14,887 --> 00:26:18,607
Speaker 2: open fire basically, and Daniel was like building this house

456
00:26:18,607 --> 00:26:22,167
Speaker 2: with his bare hands, and they said it was great content.

457
00:26:22,527 --> 00:26:26,367
Speaker 2: They got loads of followers, and then they had this

458
00:26:26,487 --> 00:26:30,527
Speaker 2: terrible fire in the summer and it burnt everything they'd done.

459
00:26:30,567 --> 00:26:34,047
Speaker 2: It just burnt to the ground, and it got them

460
00:26:34,047 --> 00:26:36,767
Speaker 2: even more followers. And Hannah was like, oh no, I

461
00:26:36,767 --> 00:26:39,047
Speaker 2: think after the fire it went from ten thousand to

462
00:26:39,127 --> 00:26:41,647
Speaker 2: fourteen thousand, and Daniel was like, no, no, no, it was

463
00:26:41,687 --> 00:26:43,847
Speaker 2: eleven thousand to seventeen thousand.

464
00:26:44,247 --> 00:26:49,727
Speaker 1: Oh wow. So they've always seen it as a mark

465
00:26:49,807 --> 00:26:52,767
Speaker 1: of what is it Their entrepreneur is his entrepreneurial brain

466
00:26:52,847 --> 00:26:57,007
Speaker 1: and clearly hers too, that had seen it very consciously.

467
00:26:57,047 --> 00:26:58,687
Speaker 1: It's not a happy accident.

468
00:26:59,047 --> 00:27:02,687
Speaker 2: No, And she did courses, you know, on nine Internet

469
00:27:02,727 --> 00:27:06,767
Speaker 2: courses to learn how to do it properly. This enabled

470
00:27:06,847 --> 00:27:11,127
Speaker 2: their dream essentially or his initially, you know, this was

471
00:27:11,207 --> 00:27:18,447
Speaker 2: the way to bankroll a really traditional small holding which

472
00:27:18,487 --> 00:27:24,487
Speaker 2: you cannot uphold just by farming eighty cows. That's impossible

473
00:27:24,487 --> 00:27:25,007
Speaker 2: in America.

474
00:27:25,087 --> 00:27:29,127
Speaker 1: So she was manetizing the account early on what sort

475
00:27:29,127 --> 00:27:30,687
Speaker 1: of brands wanted to work with her.

476
00:27:31,087 --> 00:27:35,927
Speaker 2: They were sort of doing like tee tat, like homewear

477
00:27:36,007 --> 00:27:40,047
Speaker 2: things and some food things. And now they do things

478
00:27:40,127 --> 00:27:44,527
Speaker 2: like protein shakes and like it's sort of an FedEx

479
00:27:45,087 --> 00:27:49,567
Speaker 2: and so it's much more mainstream. But it was planned,

480
00:27:49,567 --> 00:27:52,607
Speaker 2: but they were also I think it just worked, you know,

481
00:27:52,687 --> 00:27:54,967
Speaker 2: like it just worked because it was beautiful and it

482
00:27:55,047 --> 00:27:59,127
Speaker 2: was an amazing location. And then they bought after the fire,

483
00:27:59,647 --> 00:28:02,167
Speaker 2: they bought this other piece of land which then went

484
00:28:02,207 --> 00:28:04,647
Speaker 2: on to become Ballerina Farm. And they were trying to

485
00:28:04,647 --> 00:28:06,927
Speaker 2: figure out a name, and her brother was there, who

486
00:28:07,007 --> 00:28:10,087
Speaker 2: was this entrepreneur, and he said, what about Ballerina Farm,

487
00:28:10,287 --> 00:28:14,607
Speaker 2: because obviously she had been a ballerina and that's what

488
00:28:14,647 --> 00:28:15,087
Speaker 2: it is.

489
00:28:16,007 --> 00:28:18,847
Speaker 1: I thought that was really interesting, Megan, because you know,

490
00:28:19,087 --> 00:28:22,727
Speaker 1: you describe Daniel Nielman as an all American stake of

491
00:28:22,767 --> 00:28:26,887
Speaker 1: her husband square Jewed Denham clad, you know, from this

492
00:28:27,047 --> 00:28:32,327
Speaker 1: conservative Mormon family, and in some ways the idea of

493
00:28:32,367 --> 00:28:36,047
Speaker 1: calling your farm Ballerina Farm could be seen to be

494
00:28:36,207 --> 00:28:40,847
Speaker 1: quite emasculating or quite feminizing. But he was into it.

495
00:28:40,927 --> 00:28:43,007
Speaker 1: Is that because he understood the value of marketing.

496
00:28:43,927 --> 00:28:47,767
Speaker 2: I think there are two reasons. One is that Hannah

497
00:28:47,807 --> 00:28:51,607
Speaker 2: was the face, you know, and she's also the brains,

498
00:28:51,687 --> 00:28:53,607
Speaker 2: but she was the face of it. She's head of marketing.

499
00:28:54,047 --> 00:28:55,847
Speaker 1: When you say she's the brains, what do you mean.

500
00:28:56,327 --> 00:28:59,527
Speaker 2: She understands social media in a way that Daniel doesn't.

501
00:28:59,607 --> 00:29:02,527
Speaker 2: She understands it really thoroughly, and she understands what other

502
00:29:02,567 --> 00:29:06,607
Speaker 2: people are doing and what works, and she's very engaged

503
00:29:07,327 --> 00:29:09,407
Speaker 2: with it all. And she's the one who uploads all then,

504
00:29:10,327 --> 00:29:15,607
Speaker 2: But Daniel is the one who makes, from what I understand,

505
00:29:16,287 --> 00:29:20,407
Speaker 2: the main business decisions. So I think that he understood

506
00:29:20,447 --> 00:29:22,207
Speaker 2: that the way that they were going to sell it

507
00:29:22,287 --> 00:29:25,727
Speaker 2: was through her. And the second reason is I think

508
00:29:25,927 --> 00:29:27,967
Speaker 2: that central to the brand is the fact that she

509
00:29:28,007 --> 00:29:30,847
Speaker 2: went to Juilliard, and is the fact that she no

510
00:29:30,927 --> 00:29:34,927
Speaker 2: longer is a ballerina. You know. Is there a more

511
00:29:35,167 --> 00:29:40,407
Speaker 2: worthy decision as a super talented, qualified woman than to

512
00:29:40,567 --> 00:29:43,687
Speaker 2: choose looking after and bringing up your children.

513
00:29:44,207 --> 00:29:47,927
Speaker 1: So self sacrifice becomes part of the origin story as well.

514
00:29:48,367 --> 00:29:53,047
Speaker 2: And it always has been. Every bio, every interview, is

515
00:29:53,247 --> 00:29:56,007
Speaker 2: absolutely central. The fact that she went to Juilliard and

516
00:29:56,007 --> 00:29:59,647
Speaker 2: then gave up is one hundred per central to the

517
00:29:59,647 --> 00:30:00,567
Speaker 2: brand from the beginning.

518
00:30:01,327 --> 00:30:04,927
Speaker 1: I'm interested to know whether Daniel is an actual farmer

519
00:30:05,127 --> 00:30:07,167
Speaker 1: or is he just cause playing being a farmer.

520
00:30:08,087 --> 00:30:11,287
Speaker 2: Now he's an actual farm He's out on the farm

521
00:30:11,327 --> 00:30:15,407
Speaker 2: all the time, and he loves it. He absolutely loves it.

522
00:30:15,487 --> 00:30:18,447
Speaker 2: He loves all the animals, and he loves all the land,

523
00:30:18,487 --> 00:30:20,607
Speaker 2: and he loves all the stuff. He called himself an

524
00:30:20,647 --> 00:30:24,847
Speaker 2: agricultural missionary though, so not only is it about farming,

525
00:30:24,887 --> 00:30:28,607
Speaker 2: but it's about sharing the farming with other people and

526
00:30:28,767 --> 00:30:33,207
Speaker 2: encouraging people to start their own small farms and repopulate

527
00:30:33,247 --> 00:30:36,767
Speaker 2: America with these homesteads, which I did say to him,

528
00:30:37,207 --> 00:30:41,047
Speaker 2: that's financially impossible, though, how are you suggesting people do it?

529
00:30:41,087 --> 00:30:43,247
Speaker 2: And he was like, yeah, well, you know, social media

530
00:30:43,247 --> 00:30:46,047
Speaker 2: pays for all of our basically allows us to have

531
00:30:46,127 --> 00:30:48,647
Speaker 2: this farm, and it's a thing that allows us to

532
00:30:48,807 --> 00:30:50,767
Speaker 2: charge four times more for a pint of milk than

533
00:30:50,807 --> 00:30:51,447
Speaker 2: the farmer down the.

534
00:30:51,487 --> 00:30:56,007
Speaker 1: Road or a steak, So it's not sustainable on its own.

535
00:30:56,247 --> 00:31:00,367
Speaker 1: The income or the revenue comes from social and from

536
00:31:00,607 --> 00:31:01,887
Speaker 1: her Instagram.

537
00:31:01,727 --> 00:31:04,887
Speaker 2: And it comes from being able to sell products mark

538
00:31:04,927 --> 00:31:09,087
Speaker 2: them by five times four times more than if I

539
00:31:09,407 --> 00:31:11,847
Speaker 2: had a milk farm or and you were just so

540
00:31:12,607 --> 00:31:15,287
Speaker 2: much year old Jerry had a milk farm. Yeah, right,

541
00:31:15,687 --> 00:31:19,807
Speaker 2: And I said, like, you know, about what if Jerry

542
00:31:19,847 --> 00:31:24,407
Speaker 2: doesn't have a pageant queen wife and eight beautiful children,

543
00:31:24,487 --> 00:31:26,287
Speaker 2: and he was like, well, yeah, well you know, social

544
00:31:26,367 --> 00:31:30,407
Speaker 2: media isn't for everyone. So yeah, he was quite deluded,

545
00:31:30,687 --> 00:31:35,087
Speaker 2: if I'm big completely honest in like what exactly he

546
00:31:35,207 --> 00:31:38,407
Speaker 2: was promoting, because the thing that he was promoting, that

547
00:31:38,607 --> 00:31:40,487
Speaker 2: is impossible unless you're really hot.

548
00:31:41,407 --> 00:31:45,887
Speaker 1: Over the years that they have been, you know, working

549
00:31:45,967 --> 00:31:47,927
Speaker 1: under the brand Ballerina Farm and on that farm and

550
00:31:47,967 --> 00:31:52,007
Speaker 1: having all the babies are there's certain points where things

551
00:31:52,247 --> 00:31:55,807
Speaker 1: went viral and their their fame and their followers jumped.

552
00:31:56,287 --> 00:31:59,967
Speaker 1: The pageant definitely was because that was quite recently, the

553
00:32:00,007 --> 00:32:00,807
Speaker 1: pageant that.

554
00:32:00,927 --> 00:32:04,527
Speaker 2: Was January of this year. Yeah, it was recent and

555
00:32:04,567 --> 00:32:07,847
Speaker 2: then I don't know. There have definitely been these controversies

556
00:32:08,447 --> 00:32:11,567
Speaker 2: around her not looking after her children properly and then

557
00:32:11,687 --> 00:32:15,767
Speaker 2: running too wild or them abusing animals. She said that

558
00:32:15,767 --> 00:32:19,407
Speaker 2: she dropped kick to cock crawl across the farmyard because

559
00:32:19,407 --> 00:32:21,807
Speaker 2: it had packed one of her children and it drew blood,

560
00:32:22,007 --> 00:32:24,727
Speaker 2: so everyone was pretty hurt. Up about that, and then

561
00:32:24,767 --> 00:32:27,927
Speaker 2: I think COVID was the thing that really like propels

562
00:32:28,007 --> 00:32:30,687
Speaker 2: them upwards. In her recipes, she was making a lot

563
00:32:30,727 --> 00:32:33,367
Speaker 2: of sour dough and churning a lot of butter and

564
00:32:34,647 --> 00:32:35,287
Speaker 2: if people want.

565
00:32:35,167 --> 00:32:37,087
Speaker 6: To have that, And then we're going to mix the

566
00:32:37,167 --> 00:32:41,647
Speaker 6: starter with the water until it's completely dissolved in nise

567
00:32:41,687 --> 00:32:46,847
Speaker 6: and milky. Then we're going to add our flour. We're

568
00:32:46,887 --> 00:32:48,967
Speaker 6: going to mix it together, and then I just need

569
00:32:49,047 --> 00:32:50,807
Speaker 6: it with my hand because I feel like that's the

570
00:32:50,847 --> 00:32:53,367
Speaker 6: easiest until it's nice and smooth.

571
00:32:54,327 --> 00:32:56,887
Speaker 1: This idea of the tread wife in the case of

572
00:32:56,927 --> 00:33:01,047
Speaker 1: Narasmith and of Hannah, this obsession with building or making

573
00:33:01,047 --> 00:33:04,007
Speaker 1: things from scratch. Can you talk a little bit about that,

574
00:33:04,207 --> 00:33:07,407
Speaker 1: because I mean, I know Narrosmith makes bubblegumy.

575
00:33:07,807 --> 00:33:11,327
Speaker 5: I poured some powdle chuggar, some works paper and cated

576
00:33:11,407 --> 00:33:14,527
Speaker 5: a well before combining my gumbas with some corn syrup

577
00:33:14,527 --> 00:33:17,367
Speaker 5: and slowly melting it down. And so that was all melted,

578
00:33:17,407 --> 00:33:19,927
Speaker 5: I gave it a good stir and poured it into

579
00:33:20,007 --> 00:33:22,167
Speaker 5: my little powdered sugar wells I created.

580
00:33:23,127 --> 00:33:25,927
Speaker 1: Just like it's almost a joke. Why don't you just

581
00:33:25,967 --> 00:33:27,607
Speaker 1: go and buy some better. Why do you have to

582
00:33:27,687 --> 00:33:31,327
Speaker 1: make better from scratch? Particularly when you have eight children? Like,

583
00:33:31,327 --> 00:33:33,847
Speaker 1: what's that about? Is that just a weird flex or,

584
00:33:33,887 --> 00:33:34,967
Speaker 1: it's an ideology.

585
00:33:35,527 --> 00:33:38,847
Speaker 2: I think the Narasmith thing is like more knowing, and

586
00:33:38,887 --> 00:33:40,927
Speaker 2: I think it's a bit more baiting people, and it's

587
00:33:40,967 --> 00:33:43,247
Speaker 2: quite silly, I hope.

588
00:33:43,927 --> 00:33:45,927
Speaker 1: But does Hannah do the same thing. I mean, there aren't.

589
00:33:45,927 --> 00:33:48,487
Speaker 1: They don't have process food, they don't have ready made meals.

590
00:33:48,687 --> 00:33:50,927
Speaker 1: She does make it? Does she make everything from scratch?

591
00:33:51,327 --> 00:33:54,967
Speaker 2: Yeah? I said, do you never get like a cheeky pizza?

592
00:33:55,487 --> 00:33:57,887
Speaker 2: She's like, no, no, no, don't. We don't do ready meals.

593
00:33:58,447 --> 00:34:02,247
Speaker 2: I think more widely in the US, so much is

594
00:34:02,287 --> 00:34:05,687
Speaker 2: processed and so much comes from big farms in a

595
00:34:05,687 --> 00:34:09,007
Speaker 2: way that I wasn't actually ready for moving from the

596
00:34:09,087 --> 00:34:13,447
Speaker 2: un It's extraordinary how difficult it is to get good

597
00:34:14,047 --> 00:34:17,647
Speaker 2: raw produce. And so I think here there's a real

598
00:34:18,967 --> 00:34:23,327
Speaker 2: desire to see and then hopefully consume that sort of

599
00:34:23,767 --> 00:34:27,047
Speaker 2: cooking and that way of life. But I think, as

600
00:34:27,127 --> 00:34:30,447
Speaker 2: we've touched on a number of times, it's about this effortlessness,

601
00:34:30,487 --> 00:34:34,487
Speaker 2: and it's about providing, and it's about your role as

602
00:34:34,807 --> 00:34:37,887
Speaker 2: a woman to feed and nourish your children and your

603
00:34:37,927 --> 00:34:41,167
Speaker 2: family in a way that's healthy and not cheating.

604
00:34:41,967 --> 00:34:45,127
Speaker 1: That's what's interesting to me because there's the implied judgment

605
00:34:45,287 --> 00:34:49,727
Speaker 1: of cheating. And when when she said to you, no,

606
00:34:49,807 --> 00:34:52,727
Speaker 1: we don't do that, don't we don't do ready meals,

607
00:34:54,207 --> 00:34:57,127
Speaker 1: I mean even bread, Like I wouldn't even consider bread

608
00:34:57,167 --> 00:34:59,647
Speaker 1: a ready meal. I would consider bread of staples or pasta,

609
00:34:59,807 --> 00:35:07,367
Speaker 1: or butter or cheese. It's everything from scratch. Like why

610
00:35:07,807 --> 00:35:09,647
Speaker 1: it's a really good question because it was kind of

611
00:35:09,687 --> 00:35:11,447
Speaker 1: saying I'm better than you, isn't it? Or am I

612
00:35:11,487 --> 00:35:15,367
Speaker 1: being defensive of my storeboard butter and bread.

613
00:35:16,967 --> 00:35:21,607
Speaker 2: I think in the way it is, Yes, I think

614
00:35:21,687 --> 00:35:23,567
Speaker 2: what she's saying is this is how it's meant to

615
00:35:23,607 --> 00:35:26,167
Speaker 2: be right, this is how family life is meant to be,

616
00:35:26,287 --> 00:35:29,327
Speaker 2: and it's about and it should be a way from

617
00:35:29,727 --> 00:35:33,367
Speaker 2: modernity in some way and things that are not good

618
00:35:34,207 --> 00:35:39,287
Speaker 2: for your children. And it's so enthrined in Mormon teachings too,

619
00:35:39,447 --> 00:35:43,647
Speaker 2: which is this domesticity of the wife and also this

620
00:35:43,767 --> 00:35:47,527
Speaker 2: performed effortlessness of she can do it and she never complains,

621
00:35:48,207 --> 00:35:51,487
Speaker 2: and it's like the last ten years was kind of

622
00:35:51,607 --> 00:35:54,967
Speaker 2: missed on her. And I said, you know, how do

623
00:35:54,967 --> 00:35:57,287
Speaker 2: you feel about all the women who exactly feel like

624
00:35:57,487 --> 00:35:59,967
Speaker 2: this is judging in some way and are really angry

625
00:35:59,967 --> 00:36:03,287
Speaker 2: about that. And she completely missed the point of the

626
00:36:03,407 --> 00:36:06,327
Speaker 2: question and said, you know, I hope that what I'm

627
00:36:06,367 --> 00:36:09,567
Speaker 2: doing encourages women to see how lovely it is to

628
00:36:09,647 --> 00:36:13,127
Speaker 2: cook lovely males for your family. But that's kind of

629
00:36:13,127 --> 00:36:14,847
Speaker 2: not the point, because a lot of people don't have

630
00:36:14,927 --> 00:36:17,127
Speaker 2: time to do that. Most people don't.

631
00:36:18,207 --> 00:36:20,967
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the word privilege is sometimes overused, but

632
00:36:21,167 --> 00:36:25,927
Speaker 1: this whole idea relies on women doing nothing or someone.

633
00:36:26,007 --> 00:36:27,687
Speaker 1: Of course it could be a man, but it never is.

634
00:36:27,727 --> 00:36:31,487
Speaker 1: There aren't trad husbands. Really, it relies on these very

635
00:36:31,967 --> 00:36:35,367
Speaker 1: you know, stereotypical gender roles, doesn't it, and like really

636
00:36:35,447 --> 00:36:39,367
Speaker 1: hardcore gender roles, because the woman is only the carer

637
00:36:39,567 --> 00:36:42,527
Speaker 1: because preparing all that food, I don't even know how

638
00:36:42,567 --> 00:36:46,207
Speaker 1: she has time to look after the children. And that's where,

639
00:36:46,367 --> 00:36:50,167
Speaker 1: you know, the way social media condenses it and flattens

640
00:36:50,207 --> 00:36:52,687
Speaker 1: it in terms of oh, here I made the butter,

641
00:36:52,727 --> 00:36:55,407
Speaker 1: and I churned the butter, and it literally probably is

642
00:36:55,407 --> 00:36:58,687
Speaker 1: shown for two seconds, but that's something that would take

643
00:36:58,727 --> 00:36:59,447
Speaker 1: hours to do.

644
00:37:00,327 --> 00:37:06,247
Speaker 2: And it's also really boring. You know, there's no promotion here,

645
00:37:06,847 --> 00:37:09,927
Speaker 2: like you know, this is eighteen no longer than that.

646
00:37:10,127 --> 00:37:12,687
Speaker 2: Who ever't knows how many years it is, thirty years

647
00:37:12,767 --> 00:37:18,687
Speaker 2: straight of every day doing the bloody food. Yeah, I

648
00:37:18,767 --> 00:37:21,407
Speaker 2: just I know that some people enjoy it more than others.

649
00:37:22,327 --> 00:37:24,287
Speaker 2: But it's all says it has got to get boring.

650
00:37:25,127 --> 00:37:29,887
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's no acknowledgment. And you know, for her

651
00:37:29,927 --> 00:37:33,447
Speaker 1: perhaps it isn't boring. But it's interesting what you said

652
00:37:33,487 --> 00:37:35,807
Speaker 1: in her blog, how she said I made a conscious

653
00:37:35,807 --> 00:37:38,727
Speaker 1: decision essentially not to complain, to see this as a

654
00:37:38,767 --> 00:37:43,487
Speaker 1: gift and a calling. And so it's the implication, even

655
00:37:43,487 --> 00:37:45,807
Speaker 1: if she might not be doing it consciously, is if

656
00:37:45,847 --> 00:37:48,407
Speaker 1: you don't find this as rewarding as I do, there's

657
00:37:48,447 --> 00:37:51,847
Speaker 1: something wrong with you and you're not a real woman.

658
00:37:52,567 --> 00:37:55,967
Speaker 2: I think that's why it's so controversial.

659
00:37:55,247 --> 00:37:56,807
Speaker 1: Why people get angry, right.

660
00:37:57,247 --> 00:38:01,847
Speaker 2: Yeah, And they have really strongly held believes about saying

661
00:38:01,967 --> 00:38:05,327
Speaker 2: sex marriage and sex before marriage, and these have been

662
00:38:05,367 --> 00:38:10,127
Speaker 2: really really destructive. You know, a lot of these belief

663
00:38:10,167 --> 00:38:14,007
Speaker 2: systems have been really destructive, particularly towards women and around

664
00:38:14,087 --> 00:38:19,287
Speaker 2: abortion and rights over our bodies. And you know, part

665
00:38:19,327 --> 00:38:22,287
Speaker 2: of that part of not having so many rights over

666
00:38:22,327 --> 00:38:25,327
Speaker 2: our bodies, is that we have to continue to give

667
00:38:25,447 --> 00:38:29,247
Speaker 2: up our rights to our children to provide for them

668
00:38:29,287 --> 00:38:32,407
Speaker 2: at the expense of everything else, and the expense of

669
00:38:32,527 --> 00:38:35,847
Speaker 2: time for yourself, which is really important so that you

670
00:38:35,887 --> 00:38:39,887
Speaker 2: don't go insane and so that you slightly remember where

671
00:38:39,927 --> 00:38:43,247
Speaker 2: you're at to collect your thoughts and all of these things. So, yeah,

672
00:38:43,287 --> 00:38:46,847
Speaker 2: it's complicated and it can be dangerous as well.

673
00:38:48,287 --> 00:38:51,807
Speaker 1: After this break, how did Megan actually convince the Nailmans

674
00:38:52,007 --> 00:38:54,367
Speaker 1: to give her so much access and let her into

675
00:38:54,407 --> 00:38:57,567
Speaker 1: their house? And once she actually gets to bellerin a farm?

676
00:38:58,127 --> 00:39:00,607
Speaker 1: Why is it so hard to get Hannah on her own?

677
00:39:01,407 --> 00:39:06,047
Speaker 1: The rest of our conversation coming up, Tell me about

678
00:39:06,047 --> 00:39:08,647
Speaker 1: the process of securing the interview. Was it easy to

679
00:39:08,687 --> 00:39:10,767
Speaker 1: get to a huge number of interviews? I mean The

680
00:39:10,767 --> 00:39:13,767
Speaker 1: Times is obviously very prestigious, but what was it like?

681
00:39:13,807 --> 00:39:17,047
Speaker 1: There's always back and forth negotiating an interview and access.

682
00:39:17,447 --> 00:39:18,087
Speaker 1: How did that play?

683
00:39:18,247 --> 00:39:21,847
Speaker 2: That was my brilliant colleagues in London, my commissioning editor

684
00:39:21,967 --> 00:39:26,607
Speaker 2: at the magazine, who is so good at doing this.

685
00:39:27,407 --> 00:39:29,367
Speaker 2: But my understanding is that they were pretty.

686
00:39:29,167 --> 00:39:33,327
Speaker 1: Keen well expanding their market to the UK. So you

687
00:39:33,327 --> 00:39:34,847
Speaker 1: can see what was you know, for them.

688
00:39:35,167 --> 00:39:39,447
Speaker 2: And they also love England. They were like constantly asking me, like,

689
00:39:40,287 --> 00:39:42,647
Speaker 2: you know, do we turn our agar off in in

690
00:39:42,687 --> 00:39:46,527
Speaker 2: the summer. I bet it's really beautiful. Where do you live?

691
00:39:46,567 --> 00:39:49,487
Speaker 2: What's it like? Like they were so fetishistic about England and

692
00:39:49,527 --> 00:39:52,287
Speaker 2: it was kind of an interesting element actually to that

693
00:39:52,407 --> 00:39:58,127
Speaker 2: form of really old fashioned countryside, the domesticity that they

694
00:39:58,167 --> 00:40:00,647
Speaker 2: want in habit. Like they were asking, they were really

695
00:40:00,647 --> 00:40:03,047
Speaker 2: desperate to hear in a way that they were like

696
00:40:03,087 --> 00:40:05,807
Speaker 2: taking notes, and then they just said, come, come for

697
00:40:05,847 --> 00:40:08,127
Speaker 2: the day, Come for the day and we'll do the

698
00:40:08,127 --> 00:40:11,087
Speaker 2: interview and you can see that farm. So they were

699
00:40:11,167 --> 00:40:11,847
Speaker 2: really open.

700
00:40:12,527 --> 00:40:14,687
Speaker 1: You'd say it all obviously on social media a lot,

701
00:40:14,727 --> 00:40:18,247
Speaker 1: as has anyone who's followed Bellerina Farm. When you actually

702
00:40:18,327 --> 00:40:20,487
Speaker 1: arrived on the farm, what does it look like?

703
00:40:21,487 --> 00:40:25,567
Speaker 2: It's I mean, it's quite near to this skiing town

704
00:40:26,247 --> 00:40:30,087
Speaker 2: which is pretty like bougie. Actually there are like you know,

705
00:40:30,327 --> 00:40:33,167
Speaker 2: flashy cars and stuff. It's about forty five minutes away,

706
00:40:33,207 --> 00:40:36,127
Speaker 2: so it's not miles away from anything, but it's really

707
00:40:36,167 --> 00:40:39,047
Speaker 2: out in the sticks and it's along this long track

708
00:40:39,087 --> 00:40:42,287
Speaker 2: off a main road and it's sort of between these

709
00:40:42,327 --> 00:40:45,607
Speaker 2: water meadows, which is where the cows graze, and the

710
00:40:45,607 --> 00:40:49,207
Speaker 2: more arid mountains which go sort of behind the farmhouse,

711
00:40:49,447 --> 00:40:51,567
Speaker 2: which is where they have their rodeo horses, and they

712
00:40:51,567 --> 00:40:55,887
Speaker 2: have the pigs and the chickens, and it's really unbelievably beautiful,

713
00:40:56,007 --> 00:40:58,847
Speaker 2: like you just get your phone out and it looks

714
00:40:58,887 --> 00:41:02,727
Speaker 2: amazing on your phone and it's made for Instagram. But

715
00:41:02,767 --> 00:41:06,127
Speaker 2: it's also kind of scary. Like the day before when

716
00:41:06,127 --> 00:41:08,687
Speaker 2: I arrived, I just wanted to go for a drive

717
00:41:09,487 --> 00:41:11,367
Speaker 2: and I was driving along this really, really really long

718
00:41:11,487 --> 00:41:14,807
Speaker 2: road and I was planning on doing this big loop

719
00:41:14,887 --> 00:41:17,607
Speaker 2: and I got about half an hour down this road

720
00:41:17,927 --> 00:41:21,287
Speaker 2: and I was like, there is nobody else here if

721
00:41:21,287 --> 00:41:24,887
Speaker 2: I break down or something happens. I just suddenly started

722
00:41:24,927 --> 00:41:28,727
Speaker 2: freaking out at the ruralness of it. And there's something

723
00:41:28,807 --> 00:41:32,567
Speaker 2: a bit scary about it. I mean, you live in Australia,

724
00:41:32,607 --> 00:41:34,807
Speaker 2: I'm sure you have had moments like that when you're like,

725
00:41:34,847 --> 00:41:39,327
Speaker 2: oh shit, this is actually really nice. Yeah yeah, yeah,

726
00:41:39,407 --> 00:41:41,087
Speaker 2: and then your brain goes a bit funny. And I

727
00:41:41,127 --> 00:41:43,047
Speaker 2: grew up in the countryside in the UK, so I'm

728
00:41:43,047 --> 00:41:45,807
Speaker 2: not like, you know, a city girl through and through,

729
00:41:46,327 --> 00:41:49,247
Speaker 2: So there was this sense of like, oh wow, you're

730
00:41:49,647 --> 00:41:50,207
Speaker 2: far away.

731
00:41:50,767 --> 00:41:53,327
Speaker 1: When you opened the door. When the door was opened

732
00:41:53,767 --> 00:41:57,487
Speaker 1: of the house and you met Daniel and Hannah, what

733
00:41:57,527 --> 00:41:58,567
Speaker 1: were your first impressions?

734
00:41:59,247 --> 00:42:05,607
Speaker 2: Really relaxed, The kids were everywhere. Daniel is actually very

735
00:42:05,647 --> 00:42:09,047
Speaker 2: hands on with the kids and like with the baby,

736
00:42:10,087 --> 00:42:13,167
Speaker 2: and it just looked exactly how it did on Instagram.

737
00:42:13,207 --> 00:42:16,207
Speaker 2: It was kind of chaotic and loose living. You know

738
00:42:16,247 --> 00:42:18,367
Speaker 2: that they're not in any way. I mean, I don't

739
00:42:18,367 --> 00:42:23,087
Speaker 2: think you can be uptight about like presentation of the house.

740
00:42:23,647 --> 00:42:26,047
Speaker 2: It was sort of like rough and tumble, and it

741
00:42:26,087 --> 00:42:27,447
Speaker 2: looked great.

742
00:42:27,687 --> 00:42:29,447
Speaker 1: So like the kid with the kids all sort of

743
00:42:29,487 --> 00:42:34,167
Speaker 1: in coordinated outfits or share complimentary shades of neutral linen

744
00:42:34,927 --> 00:42:35,607
Speaker 1: pretty much.

745
00:42:35,687 --> 00:42:37,727
Speaker 2: But they were also like very muddy and like had

746
00:42:37,927 --> 00:42:41,127
Speaker 2: fruit all over their places, and I think they just

747
00:42:41,167 --> 00:42:43,567
Speaker 2: have really good clothes. And it was good. I mean,

748
00:42:43,887 --> 00:42:47,727
Speaker 2: the interview was very much involving Daniel, much more than

749
00:42:47,767 --> 00:42:52,447
Speaker 2: I initially anticipated, particularly when it came to politics and

750
00:42:52,567 --> 00:42:56,527
Speaker 2: religion and trad wifeeness. He was the one who sort

751
00:42:56,567 --> 00:42:57,887
Speaker 2: of took the lead on those answers.

752
00:42:58,247 --> 00:43:01,447
Speaker 1: That's interesting and it felt a little I know, you

753
00:43:01,487 --> 00:43:04,807
Speaker 1: were obviously very tried hard not to inject your opinion

754
00:43:04,807 --> 00:43:08,167
Speaker 1: into the story, and you reported it out very carefully

755
00:43:08,167 --> 00:43:11,247
Speaker 1: and in a balanced way, but it did come across

756
00:43:11,407 --> 00:43:15,047
Speaker 1: as controlling and a little ominous. His refusal to leave

757
00:43:15,127 --> 00:43:18,887
Speaker 1: you alone with her, it seemed like he was diverting

758
00:43:18,967 --> 00:43:22,767
Speaker 1: you away from being able to talk to her. Tell

759
00:43:22,807 --> 00:43:24,887
Speaker 1: me a bit about that. Is that how you felt.

760
00:43:25,087 --> 00:43:27,247
Speaker 2: I think it would be extreme to say that he

761
00:43:27,327 --> 00:43:33,647
Speaker 2: was like diverting or in any way possessive. But he's

762
00:43:33,727 --> 00:43:37,927
Speaker 2: the master of the house. And I've spoken to a

763
00:43:37,967 --> 00:43:40,927
Speaker 2: lot of Mormon women since who've got in touch with

764
00:43:40,967 --> 00:43:43,727
Speaker 2: me to say that, which was very moving actually and

765
00:43:43,807 --> 00:43:47,247
Speaker 2: meant a lot, to say that it was an accurate portrayal.

766
00:43:47,287 --> 00:43:49,767
Speaker 2: They felt it to be an accurate portrayal of the

767
00:43:49,887 --> 00:43:52,607
Speaker 2: gender roles that they see in their own lives and

768
00:43:52,647 --> 00:43:58,607
Speaker 2: throughout their community. And in Mormonism, the men have the priesthood.

769
00:43:59,167 --> 00:44:01,487
Speaker 2: All of the men have the priesthood after baptism, so

770
00:44:01,847 --> 00:44:04,847
Speaker 2: they really are the ones who lead the prayer and

771
00:44:05,407 --> 00:44:10,607
Speaker 2: who are able to make authoritative comments on culture, society,

772
00:44:10,687 --> 00:44:13,647
Speaker 2: and their community. And it's the women who are the homemakers.

773
00:44:13,927 --> 00:44:17,567
Speaker 2: And that added so much context to why she looked

774
00:44:17,567 --> 00:44:20,767
Speaker 2: to him when it was about the bigger world because

775
00:44:21,007 --> 00:44:23,127
Speaker 2: it's the men who go out into it. They do

776
00:44:23,167 --> 00:44:25,487
Speaker 2: their missions, and then they return and they're full of

777
00:44:25,647 --> 00:44:30,047
Speaker 2: worldly knowledge. So that's what it really reminded me of,

778
00:44:30,247 --> 00:44:33,927
Speaker 2: was that he is the one who's right and has

779
00:44:34,007 --> 00:44:38,447
Speaker 2: the important views on things, and she is the one

780
00:44:38,447 --> 00:44:41,967
Speaker 2: who looks after the children. So I think him leading

781
00:44:42,047 --> 00:44:44,127
Speaker 2: was more that rather than him taking away.

782
00:44:44,167 --> 00:44:47,247
Speaker 1: But did they seem like equals? Yeah, I know they

783
00:44:47,247 --> 00:44:50,487
Speaker 1: call themselves co CEOs. Did they seem like equals? That

784
00:44:50,847 --> 00:44:54,047
Speaker 1: is really important context what you say about it wasn't

785
00:44:54,087 --> 00:44:59,247
Speaker 1: necessarily a sinister thing or a dysfunctional thing in their relationship.

786
00:44:59,327 --> 00:45:03,807
Speaker 1: It's more just the strictures of Mormonism and how they

787
00:45:03,847 --> 00:45:07,047
Speaker 1: were both raised and those really hardcore gender roles.

788
00:45:07,567 --> 00:45:10,327
Speaker 2: Yes, in terms of the kids looking after the kids,

789
00:45:10,607 --> 00:45:15,607
Speaker 2: he was way more involved than many other modern dads.

790
00:45:15,647 --> 00:45:17,687
Speaker 2: I would have thought. You know, the kids joined him

791
00:45:17,687 --> 00:45:18,087
Speaker 2: on the farm.

792
00:45:18,447 --> 00:45:20,087
Speaker 4: We have a lot of kids, so we have a

793
00:45:20,087 --> 00:45:24,487
Speaker 4: lot of responsibilities, and I take care of more of

794
00:45:24,527 --> 00:45:27,087
Speaker 4: the ranch side of things. Hannah takes care of more

795
00:45:27,087 --> 00:45:31,207
Speaker 4: of the marketing. But we also share so many roles,

796
00:45:31,767 --> 00:45:35,007
Speaker 4: especially with parenting. When we're very fifty to fifty, Hannah

797
00:45:35,007 --> 00:45:37,127
Speaker 4: does more. I do as much as I can.

798
00:45:37,607 --> 00:45:40,327
Speaker 6: Well, especially because the kids are homeschooled and both of

799
00:45:40,407 --> 00:45:41,607
Speaker 6: us are at home every day.

800
00:45:42,127 --> 00:45:45,407
Speaker 2: But his decision was the final one. Like we went

801
00:45:45,447 --> 00:45:48,047
Speaker 2: out to the barn and this new barn that they're

802
00:45:48,047 --> 00:45:51,327
Speaker 2: built and it's really beautiful's where the dairy cows are

803
00:45:51,367 --> 00:45:54,487
Speaker 2: going to go, and had built this platform in the

804
00:45:54,487 --> 00:45:59,567
Speaker 2: middle of it all, and I said, oh, why is

805
00:45:59,607 --> 00:46:03,007
Speaker 2: this here? And he was like, well, I want to

806
00:46:03,007 --> 00:46:05,607
Speaker 2: do tours. I want to do farm tours and so

807
00:46:05,687 --> 00:46:08,367
Speaker 2: that I can show people the building, but Hannah doesn't

808
00:46:08,367 --> 00:46:11,607
Speaker 2: want to do them. And I kind of like looked

809
00:46:11,687 --> 00:46:15,047
Speaker 2: down and we were standing on the platform that he

810
00:46:15,127 --> 00:46:18,647
Speaker 2: had built to do the farm tours, and he was

811
00:46:18,647 --> 00:46:20,367
Speaker 2: telling me that they're not going to do them because

812
00:46:20,367 --> 00:46:23,727
Speaker 2: Hannah doesn't want to do them, and I just thought, oh,

813
00:46:23,767 --> 00:46:26,167
Speaker 2: I think the decision might already have been made.

814
00:46:27,287 --> 00:46:27,887
Speaker 1: Interesting.

815
00:46:28,247 --> 00:46:31,207
Speaker 2: So I think that they are equals and that they're

816
00:46:32,087 --> 00:46:34,647
Speaker 2: they both have different stakes in the same company, But

817
00:46:34,727 --> 00:46:38,887
Speaker 2: I think that from my interactions with him and her,

818
00:46:39,167 --> 00:46:41,847
Speaker 2: he seemed to have the final say in it.

819
00:46:42,647 --> 00:46:46,487
Speaker 1: What are the practicalities of running a farm with eight

820
00:46:46,567 --> 00:46:50,287
Speaker 1: children that you have to prepare all their meals for?

821
00:46:50,487 --> 00:46:53,487
Speaker 1: Like they must have help. I know that she says

822
00:46:53,487 --> 00:46:55,327
Speaker 1: that they don't. But did you get the sense that

823
00:46:55,367 --> 00:46:57,007
Speaker 1: the help had been sent away for the day.

824
00:46:57,447 --> 00:46:59,287
Speaker 2: No, I don't think they want the help.

825
00:46:59,647 --> 00:47:02,207
Speaker 1: So who teaches the children? Because they're all homeschooled in

826
00:47:02,247 --> 00:47:02,847
Speaker 1: the barn.

827
00:47:02,967 --> 00:47:05,327
Speaker 2: They have a teacher, So they have a Mormon teacher

828
00:47:05,367 --> 00:47:07,287
Speaker 2: from down the road who comes to school the kids.

829
00:47:07,167 --> 00:47:09,487
Speaker 1: But most of them, I suppose how old are the kids, Like,

830
00:47:09,567 --> 00:47:12,607
Speaker 1: they range in age from almost newborn to what the

831
00:47:12,687 --> 00:47:16,927
Speaker 1: eldest is thirty, right, So she's obviously preoccupied with the

832
00:47:16,927 --> 00:47:19,687
Speaker 1: little ones all through the day and then when they're

833
00:47:19,687 --> 00:47:21,727
Speaker 1: not at school, all of them, I mean, even just

834
00:47:21,807 --> 00:47:25,287
Speaker 1: the physicality of supervising them and making sure they don't

835
00:47:25,367 --> 00:47:27,727
Speaker 1: run off into a damn how do they even do that?

836
00:47:28,247 --> 00:47:30,327
Speaker 2: Well, they kind of look after each other, the kids,

837
00:47:30,487 --> 00:47:32,607
Speaker 2: the old ones look after the younger ones. It's like

838
00:47:32,927 --> 00:47:36,847
Speaker 2: now joined into a circle, and they're pretty wild, like

839
00:47:36,887 --> 00:47:38,647
Speaker 2: they do just go off and do their own thing.

840
00:47:39,167 --> 00:47:42,927
Speaker 2: Which again, like that is a genuine fantasy, Like that

841
00:47:42,967 --> 00:47:46,047
Speaker 2: actually really worked, and that is really real. And the

842
00:47:46,047 --> 00:47:48,287
Speaker 2: fact that the kids just like kind of run wild

843
00:47:48,327 --> 00:47:51,127
Speaker 2: and are happy with it. And that's the core of

844
00:47:51,167 --> 00:47:53,527
Speaker 2: why people love it and want to watch it because

845
00:47:53,527 --> 00:47:55,687
Speaker 2: you think, oh god, I need to check that my

846
00:47:55,887 --> 00:47:58,447
Speaker 2: baby's not picking up a cigarette bart Yeah.

847
00:47:58,207 --> 00:48:02,207
Speaker 1: And instead of helicoptering, So they're not helicopter parents.

848
00:48:02,687 --> 00:48:04,847
Speaker 2: No, but they don't have to be because they live there.

849
00:48:05,367 --> 00:48:08,847
Speaker 1: You had some brief time alone with her, and there

850
00:48:08,847 --> 00:48:10,607
Speaker 1: are a couple of things you asked her. You asked

851
00:48:10,607 --> 00:48:12,527
Speaker 1: her if this was what she always wanted? What did

852
00:48:12,567 --> 00:48:13,007
Speaker 1: she say?

853
00:48:13,847 --> 00:48:17,007
Speaker 2: She said no, She was like, I wanted New York.

854
00:48:17,127 --> 00:48:20,447
Speaker 2: That was my dream. But as we said earlier, she

855
00:48:20,567 --> 00:48:24,847
Speaker 2: wants it now. Dreams changed her life. Now. I couldn't

856
00:48:24,847 --> 00:48:29,287
Speaker 2: believe that it's so extreme, that life. It's so extreme,

857
00:48:29,887 --> 00:48:32,407
Speaker 2: And I was really surprised actually when she said that

858
00:48:33,247 --> 00:48:34,487
Speaker 2: you start your.

859
00:48:34,367 --> 00:48:37,927
Speaker 1: Pace like this. Hannah Nielman was pregnant with her eighth child,

860
00:48:38,087 --> 00:48:40,487
Speaker 1: and she had two due dates. The first was for

861
00:48:40,527 --> 00:48:43,647
Speaker 1: a baby, obviously, the second, just under two weeks later,

862
00:48:44,327 --> 00:48:47,967
Speaker 1: was for a beauty pageant. Tell me about what you

863
00:48:48,167 --> 00:48:51,167
Speaker 1: think was the reason she entered that pageant.

864
00:48:52,207 --> 00:48:55,007
Speaker 2: I think that so much of this sort of femininity

865
00:48:55,487 --> 00:49:00,647
Speaker 2: is about performing ease and about making things look easy

866
00:49:01,167 --> 00:49:05,727
Speaker 2: and pleasant and nice. And I think that she knew

867
00:49:06,127 --> 00:49:08,487
Speaker 2: and thought that she could do it. She'd had seven

868
00:49:08,567 --> 00:49:12,527
Speaker 2: children before all that, and it was in the diary.

869
00:49:12,647 --> 00:49:16,247
Speaker 2: She had this commitment, she had this duty, and I

870
00:49:16,287 --> 00:49:20,967
Speaker 2: think to her it was slightly unthinkable that she wouldn't

871
00:49:20,967 --> 00:49:21,247
Speaker 2: do it.

872
00:49:21,927 --> 00:49:25,327
Speaker 1: She trained, and you wrote about her extensive preparation for

873
00:49:25,367 --> 00:49:28,487
Speaker 1: the pageant. It seemed to me to be a real

874
00:49:28,527 --> 00:49:32,247
Speaker 1: act of defiance doing that pageant and competing in Missus

875
00:49:32,247 --> 00:49:35,887
Speaker 1: World because she'd won the Missus America title. Is that

876
00:49:35,967 --> 00:49:37,807
Speaker 1: how it came across to you, where it was like,

877
00:49:38,447 --> 00:49:42,927
Speaker 1: I am determined to maintain my identity and do something

878
00:49:42,967 --> 00:49:44,847
Speaker 1: that's not about me being a wife and a mother.

879
00:49:45,567 --> 00:49:48,567
Speaker 2: That's such a good way of putting it that there

880
00:49:48,687 --> 00:49:54,847
Speaker 2: was this determination in her. But I don't necessarily think

881
00:49:54,927 --> 00:49:57,047
Speaker 2: that it was about her detaching herself from being a

882
00:49:57,047 --> 00:49:59,407
Speaker 2: wife and a mother, because the pageant itself is about

883
00:49:59,447 --> 00:50:02,727
Speaker 2: being a wife and a mother. Missus American is about

884
00:50:02,727 --> 00:50:05,687
Speaker 2: being a wife, and they talk about their children and

885
00:50:06,287 --> 00:50:09,007
Speaker 2: it's part of that brand. So I think it was

886
00:50:09,367 --> 00:50:13,007
Speaker 2: a defiance in showing people she could do it, But

887
00:50:13,047 --> 00:50:15,327
Speaker 2: I think it was a defiance and showing people she

888
00:50:15,367 --> 00:50:19,247
Speaker 2: could do it with children and with a husband, and

889
00:50:19,567 --> 00:50:24,767
Speaker 2: while remaining modest wearing her garments and wearing her you know,

890
00:50:25,127 --> 00:50:27,967
Speaker 2: the modesty clothing that she's required to from her religion.

891
00:50:28,407 --> 00:50:31,127
Speaker 1: Well, the pageant itself isn't. I mean, I can't. I

892
00:50:31,167 --> 00:50:34,047
Speaker 1: hate the term modest because it kind of implies that

893
00:50:34,087 --> 00:50:37,247
Speaker 1: people who don't dress like that are immodest. But you know,

894
00:50:37,287 --> 00:50:41,207
Speaker 1: I noticed just this week or last week, she reposted

895
00:50:41,527 --> 00:50:43,247
Speaker 1: some footage of her and it was in a tight

896
00:50:43,327 --> 00:50:46,967
Speaker 1: dress from the pageant. Tight dress. It wasn't the Missus World,

897
00:50:47,047 --> 00:50:50,727
Speaker 1: it was I think the Missus America. And she wrote

898
00:50:51,407 --> 00:50:53,967
Speaker 1: a night I will never forget this year has flown

899
00:50:54,007 --> 00:50:56,767
Speaker 1: by heading to Las Vegas next week to crown my successor.

900
00:50:57,487 --> 00:51:00,807
Speaker 1: I was twenty weeks pregnant with Miss Flora Joe during

901
00:51:00,847 --> 00:51:04,087
Speaker 1: this pageant, and I thought that last line was so

902
00:51:04,207 --> 00:51:06,687
Speaker 1: telling because she's in a swimsuit. She doesn't look like

903
00:51:06,727 --> 00:51:08,647
Speaker 1: she's pregnant at all. And this is I think her

904
00:51:09,327 --> 00:51:12,727
Speaker 1: seventh or eighth child. And to me, you know, there's

905
00:51:12,767 --> 00:51:14,767
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about body image and ballerinas and

906
00:51:15,967 --> 00:51:18,207
Speaker 1: weight and all of those kinds of things, and the

907
00:51:18,887 --> 00:51:23,047
Speaker 1: very strict structures and confines that women who are ballerinas

908
00:51:23,087 --> 00:51:27,447
Speaker 1: have to live within. But it seemed very important to

909
00:51:27,487 --> 00:51:30,447
Speaker 1: her that she didn't look pregnant, and to be saying,

910
00:51:30,767 --> 00:51:35,207
Speaker 1: look how skinny I am, Look how unpregnant I am.

911
00:51:35,247 --> 00:51:37,847
Speaker 1: And it was again as if that was a flex

912
00:51:37,927 --> 00:51:40,687
Speaker 1: and as if that was an achievement. That she was

913
00:51:40,687 --> 00:51:43,007
Speaker 1: in a swim suit, competing in a pageant with high

914
00:51:43,087 --> 00:51:46,207
Speaker 1: heels makeup and she won, and yet she was twenty

915
00:51:46,247 --> 00:51:49,847
Speaker 1: weeks pregnant. What did you get any sense of sort

916
00:51:49,887 --> 00:51:52,047
Speaker 1: of body issues for her? And this because one of

917
00:51:52,087 --> 00:51:53,927
Speaker 1: the things that the Internet's obsessed with is how skinnys

918
00:51:53,967 --> 00:51:56,487
Speaker 1: she is despite having eight children. Yeah, you know, she

919
00:51:56,607 --> 00:51:59,647
Speaker 1: bounces back. She got back in that twelve days after postpartum.

920
00:51:59,727 --> 00:52:02,927
Speaker 1: She was back in that you know, tight dress, walking

921
00:52:02,967 --> 00:52:04,487
Speaker 1: in high heels.

922
00:52:04,247 --> 00:52:06,567
Speaker 2: And she works out hard. She goes to the gym

923
00:52:06,647 --> 00:52:07,247
Speaker 2: every morning.

924
00:52:07,727 --> 00:52:09,807
Speaker 1: It's like that a rasure of effort. Well, isn't it.

925
00:52:09,807 --> 00:52:11,807
Speaker 1: It's this demand that I've had eight children, but you

926
00:52:11,847 --> 00:52:13,847
Speaker 1: will see no sign of any of it on my body.

927
00:52:14,527 --> 00:52:18,167
Speaker 2: And in Mormonism again, how you look after your body

928
00:52:18,367 --> 00:52:21,527
Speaker 2: is a reflection of how you attending to your soul.

929
00:52:22,327 --> 00:52:24,447
Speaker 2: So that's why so many Mormon women. I don't know,

930
00:52:24,487 --> 00:52:27,527
Speaker 2: if you're watching this Mormon Wives thing, on Hulu are

931
00:52:27,567 --> 00:52:30,527
Speaker 2: so beautiful because it's they see it as being a

932
00:52:30,527 --> 00:52:34,407
Speaker 2: reflection on your goodness, your spiritual goodness.

933
00:52:34,447 --> 00:52:38,687
Speaker 1: Is it the same for men? Them looking hot also

934
00:52:39,127 --> 00:52:42,967
Speaker 1: a reflection of their spiritual goodness? Probably not. It's probably

935
00:52:42,967 --> 00:52:45,687
Speaker 1: about how hard they work, right, That's probably the reflection

936
00:52:45,807 --> 00:52:47,007
Speaker 1: of their spiritual.

937
00:52:46,567 --> 00:52:48,447
Speaker 2: Goodness, right, And how much money they're making.

938
00:52:48,527 --> 00:52:50,567
Speaker 1: And for women, it's how many children they have and

939
00:52:51,007 --> 00:52:52,287
Speaker 1: they look and.

940
00:52:52,167 --> 00:52:55,527
Speaker 2: How effortless you make it look. Wow. So I was expecting, like,

941
00:52:55,847 --> 00:52:58,087
Speaker 2: it's funny that you say, like she was kind of like,

942
00:52:58,127 --> 00:53:00,087
Speaker 2: look at me, look at me. I was expecting so

943
00:53:00,207 --> 00:53:04,567
Speaker 2: much more of that metal and she'd had so much backlash,

944
00:53:04,607 --> 00:53:07,927
Speaker 2: and she continued to do it and still does. I thought, Oh,

945
00:53:08,007 --> 00:53:09,527
Speaker 2: this is going to be a woman who so like

946
00:53:09,647 --> 00:53:12,247
Speaker 2: kind of doing a bit of an f you, who

947
00:53:12,247 --> 00:53:15,127
Speaker 2: knows exactly what it's all about and exactly what she's

948
00:53:15,127 --> 00:53:18,327
Speaker 2: saying and exactly what the other argument was. But what

949
00:53:18,527 --> 00:53:21,927
Speaker 2: I found was actually a woman who just said, well,

950
00:53:21,967 --> 00:53:24,407
Speaker 2: I just wanted to do it, and I like doing it,

951
00:53:24,487 --> 00:53:27,647
Speaker 2: and so why wouldn't I post about being twenty weeks pregnant,

952
00:53:27,727 --> 00:53:30,567
Speaker 2: being pregnant, beautiful thing and blah blah, blah, and that

953
00:53:30,607 --> 00:53:32,927
Speaker 2: I didn't find that deceitful. I didn't think that she

954
00:53:33,087 --> 00:53:35,007
Speaker 2: was doing that in a deceitful way.

955
00:53:35,287 --> 00:53:37,447
Speaker 1: It's sort of guileless a little bit, though, isn't it.

956
00:53:37,447 --> 00:53:40,967
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, oh, look, I'm twenty weeks pregnant.

957
00:53:41,567 --> 00:53:44,007
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and she's tiny, she's like a little

958
00:53:44,127 --> 00:53:45,767
Speaker 2: like she's a vallerina.

959
00:53:45,887 --> 00:53:48,047
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's again that there's no sign of effort.

960
00:53:48,087 --> 00:53:50,247
Speaker 1: There's no I work out, I'll go and dip in

961
00:53:50,287 --> 00:53:53,247
Speaker 1: the dam while I'm nine months pregnant so that I

962
00:53:53,247 --> 00:53:55,687
Speaker 1: can bounce back and get into this pageant and really

963
00:53:56,087 --> 00:53:59,567
Speaker 1: punish myself and torture my body and raise all sign

964
00:53:59,647 --> 00:54:01,887
Speaker 1: of effort. Like in everywhere else in her life, it's

965
00:54:01,887 --> 00:54:04,447
Speaker 1: all about it being effortless. Do you think that's why

966
00:54:05,047 --> 00:54:09,527
Speaker 1: Ballerina farm particularly but tridwives in general, make so many

967
00:54:09,567 --> 00:54:10,327
Speaker 1: women angry?

968
00:54:10,647 --> 00:54:13,007
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I also think that we see it as

969
00:54:13,047 --> 00:54:16,367
Speaker 2: being a judgment on our own lives, in our own decisions,

970
00:54:16,407 --> 00:54:24,007
Speaker 2: so we project things onto what they're posting, and we

971
00:54:24,207 --> 00:54:27,967
Speaker 2: politicize it in a way that we're already angry about.

972
00:54:28,567 --> 00:54:31,447
Speaker 2: And I think it's really frightening. It's really, really, really

973
00:54:31,487 --> 00:54:34,887
Speaker 2: scary to see that because you think, oh God, don't, please,

974
00:54:34,927 --> 00:54:37,247
Speaker 2: don't make me go there. I really don't want men

975
00:54:37,287 --> 00:54:39,287
Speaker 2: to think that this is the way it has to be.

976
00:54:39,727 --> 00:54:41,367
Speaker 2: I really don't want men to think that this is

977
00:54:41,367 --> 00:54:43,207
Speaker 2: how I should be. And I'm failing if I'm not,

978
00:54:43,327 --> 00:54:45,927
Speaker 2: and other women, please don't. I don't want to go back.

979
00:54:46,367 --> 00:54:49,007
Speaker 1: It feels like propaganda, doesn't it for a time when

980
00:54:49,007 --> 00:54:51,647
Speaker 1: women had no rights and no choices.

981
00:54:51,807 --> 00:54:53,567
Speaker 2: And particularly when you see it coming up in your

982
00:54:53,607 --> 00:54:57,127
Speaker 2: Instagram discover. You know, before I started researching all of this,

983
00:54:57,207 --> 00:54:58,847
Speaker 2: it was coming up on my page and I was

984
00:54:58,887 --> 00:55:03,167
Speaker 2: like why, and all these Catholic influences telling me how

985
00:55:03,207 --> 00:55:05,847
Speaker 2: I should be dressing for church on a Sunday, Like

986
00:55:05,967 --> 00:55:09,447
Speaker 2: God knows how they found their way onto the c Instagram.

987
00:55:09,687 --> 00:55:12,607
Speaker 1: It's that radicalization, Isn't it like that the algorithm will do?

988
00:55:13,207 --> 00:55:15,847
Speaker 1: But in the article you wrote, you pose a question

989
00:55:15,927 --> 00:55:19,287
Speaker 1: in the subtitle, is it's an empowering new model of

990
00:55:19,287 --> 00:55:23,327
Speaker 1: womanhood or a hammer blow for feminism? Did you have

991
00:55:23,367 --> 00:55:25,287
Speaker 1: a view on this before you arrived and was it

992
00:55:25,327 --> 00:55:28,527
Speaker 1: different after you'd spent time with Hannah and Daniel.

993
00:55:29,207 --> 00:55:32,047
Speaker 2: I had had so many conversations with lots of different

994
00:55:32,207 --> 00:55:35,727
Speaker 2: people before I went, because I don't have children and

995
00:55:35,767 --> 00:55:39,407
Speaker 2: because I don't live a life anywhere like that, so

996
00:55:39,647 --> 00:55:42,647
Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I had anything written in my head.

997
00:55:42,687 --> 00:55:45,847
Speaker 2: Because a lot of mothers who had spoken to loved

998
00:55:45,887 --> 00:55:48,327
Speaker 2: her and were really respectful of the life that she

999
00:55:48,407 --> 00:55:53,567
Speaker 2: had chosen. And I'm also trained as a journalist to

1000
00:55:53,607 --> 00:55:57,927
Speaker 2: walk in somewhere and not have a preconceived understanding as

1001
00:55:58,167 --> 00:56:01,047
Speaker 2: much as I can do, having seen all of her

1002
00:56:01,047 --> 00:56:04,287
Speaker 2: life on Instagram, and I really didn't know what to expect,

1003
00:56:04,287 --> 00:56:06,607
Speaker 2: and I was surprised, as I said, like I was

1004
00:56:06,647 --> 00:56:09,447
Speaker 2: expecting to find someone who was more sort of dead

1005
00:56:09,527 --> 00:56:12,367
Speaker 2: fast in her views. And I left sort of feeling

1006
00:56:12,447 --> 00:56:14,847
Speaker 2: like WHOA, Okay, I thought I was going to be

1007
00:56:14,927 --> 00:56:17,847
Speaker 2: interviewing her. And there was a point in the day

1008
00:56:17,887 --> 00:56:20,847
Speaker 2: that I was really stressed because I was like, she's

1009
00:56:20,887 --> 00:56:22,487
Speaker 2: going to have to go and drop these kids off

1010
00:56:22,487 --> 00:56:24,647
Speaker 2: at ballet and I haven't asked her the questions that

1011
00:56:24,687 --> 00:56:27,567
Speaker 2: I need to. Yeah, clock sticking, and my edge's going

1012
00:56:27,607 --> 00:56:28,967
Speaker 2: to ask me like why didn't you ask her this?

1013
00:56:29,007 --> 00:56:32,247
Speaker 2: Why didn't you ask her this? So that was kind

1014
00:56:32,247 --> 00:56:35,327
Speaker 2: of stressful, and I left like just trying to work

1015
00:56:35,367 --> 00:56:38,047
Speaker 2: it out, and then I went for lunch actually with

1016
00:56:38,047 --> 00:56:40,487
Speaker 2: a friend when I got back here on the weekend,

1017
00:56:40,927 --> 00:56:44,727
Speaker 2: and I like splooged it all out. Everything happened and

1018
00:56:44,927 --> 00:56:49,127
Speaker 2: in the midst of like this huge storm and virality. Afterwards,

1019
00:56:49,247 --> 00:56:52,247
Speaker 2: she called me and she was like, you know, everything

1020
00:56:52,327 --> 00:56:56,167
Speaker 2: that you wrote was exactly what we spoke about that day.

1021
00:56:56,967 --> 00:56:58,527
Speaker 2: So I don't think that I did go in and

1022
00:56:58,567 --> 00:57:01,647
Speaker 2: I think I was. It was unexpected anyway. What was

1023
00:57:01,687 --> 00:57:09,207
Speaker 2: the reaction binary people thinking that it was an effect

1024
00:57:09,247 --> 00:57:12,807
Speaker 2: active piece of journalism that as I said, those Mormon

1025
00:57:12,807 --> 00:57:15,167
Speaker 2: women who said that it was an accurate representation of

1026
00:57:15,247 --> 00:57:18,047
Speaker 2: their lifestyles and how they've been feeling about gender roles,

1027
00:57:18,567 --> 00:57:20,887
Speaker 2: and then other people saying that I had no right

1028
00:57:20,967 --> 00:57:24,607
Speaker 2: to walk in there and judge her, which I don't

1029
00:57:24,687 --> 00:57:27,647
Speaker 2: think that I did, and that I know nothing because

1030
00:57:27,647 --> 00:57:30,767
Speaker 2: I'm childless, and that I should get out of other

1031
00:57:30,807 --> 00:57:33,767
Speaker 2: women's lives. There were other people who wanted to like

1032
00:57:34,207 --> 00:57:36,687
Speaker 2: thought that I was endangering her in some way. I mean,

1033
00:57:37,127 --> 00:57:40,527
Speaker 2: there were just the whole huge remit of response, but

1034
00:57:41,047 --> 00:57:45,487
Speaker 2: it was like so passionate people are so moved by

1035
00:57:45,527 --> 00:57:49,287
Speaker 2: her because it's a comment on our most intimate personal

1036
00:57:49,367 --> 00:57:51,367
Speaker 2: decisions and how we choose to live and how we

1037
00:57:51,447 --> 00:57:55,007
Speaker 2: choose to bring other people into the world, also colored

1038
00:57:55,007 --> 00:57:59,367
Speaker 2: by our own experiences of parenthood being parented ourselves. So

1039
00:57:59,447 --> 00:58:01,687
Speaker 2: it's really it goes really deep. I think the.

1040
00:58:01,647 --> 00:58:03,327
Speaker 1: People who love her, why do they love her? Do

1041
00:58:03,367 --> 00:58:06,287
Speaker 1: you think? And is there a common thread between those people?

1042
00:58:06,327 --> 00:58:10,767
Speaker 1: Is it mostly kind of Trump voters, conservative women?

1043
00:58:11,047 --> 00:58:13,607
Speaker 2: Well, there are lots of people who are really bad

1044
00:58:13,607 --> 00:58:16,247
Speaker 2: who love her. Like the mothers who love her. I

1045
00:58:16,287 --> 00:58:19,847
Speaker 2: think they love her for allowing them to talk about

1046
00:58:19,847 --> 00:58:22,367
Speaker 2: how much they love motherhood and to not feel like

1047
00:58:22,407 --> 00:58:26,087
Speaker 2: a failure for not choosing like monetary work outside of

1048
00:58:26,087 --> 00:58:29,047
Speaker 2: the home. And I think that they've felt like they're

1049
00:58:29,047 --> 00:58:30,887
Speaker 2: not allowed to do that anymore, and that she allows

1050
00:58:30,927 --> 00:58:31,407
Speaker 2: them to do.

1051
00:58:31,367 --> 00:58:34,207
Speaker 1: That even though she does right. That's the irony. It's

1052
00:58:34,367 --> 00:58:38,487
Speaker 1: very meta because by performing all of that, she's a businesswoman.

1053
00:58:38,527 --> 00:58:41,047
Speaker 1: She's an entrepreneur, she's a co CEO of a company.

1054
00:58:41,527 --> 00:58:43,487
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and she's got full time job.

1055
00:58:44,167 --> 00:58:46,287
Speaker 1: When does she make the content? Does she make it herself?

1056
00:58:46,487 --> 00:58:48,767
Speaker 2: Yeah? She makes herself throughout the day and then she

1057
00:58:48,847 --> 00:58:50,687
Speaker 2: uploads it once the kids have gone to bed, from

1058
00:58:50,727 --> 00:58:53,367
Speaker 2: like one am till two and.

1059
00:58:53,327 --> 00:58:56,727
Speaker 1: There was a kind of bizarre, almost offhand moment where

1060
00:58:56,807 --> 00:59:00,967
Speaker 1: Daniel revealed to you that sometimes Hannah gets so exhausted

1061
00:59:01,407 --> 00:59:03,287
Speaker 1: that she's literally bedridden for a week.

1062
00:59:03,647 --> 00:59:05,287
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, he said that to me when we were

1063
00:59:05,327 --> 00:59:07,647
Speaker 2: on the ute going around the farm, that you know,

1064
00:59:07,727 --> 00:59:09,167
Speaker 2: she ties herself out.

1065
00:59:09,607 --> 00:59:11,967
Speaker 1: Did he seem to think that was a problem or

1066
00:59:12,287 --> 00:59:13,967
Speaker 1: it was just life on the fine with eight kids.

1067
00:59:14,007 --> 00:59:16,527
Speaker 2: I mean it was said in a way that was

1068
00:59:16,607 --> 00:59:20,727
Speaker 2: like like she needs to learn. I don't want to

1069
00:59:20,727 --> 00:59:22,807
Speaker 2: I don't want to read too much into like the tone,

1070
00:59:22,927 --> 00:59:26,007
Speaker 2: but how I interpreted the tone was like she needs

1071
00:59:26,047 --> 00:59:28,287
Speaker 2: to learn to slow down sometimes.

1072
00:59:28,767 --> 00:59:31,327
Speaker 1: Maybe by a stick of banner instead of churning it

1073
00:59:31,327 --> 00:59:32,167
Speaker 1: once in a while.

1074
00:59:35,567 --> 00:59:37,167
Speaker 2: That's how I heard it.

1075
00:59:37,367 --> 00:59:39,167
Speaker 1: Do you know how they felt about the piece.

1076
00:59:39,727 --> 00:59:42,167
Speaker 2: I don't think that they were thrilled. I didn't hear

1077
00:59:42,207 --> 00:59:48,927
Speaker 2: from them directly. I know that there was some communication,

1078
00:59:49,807 --> 00:59:54,127
Speaker 2: but it was an honest piece against my transcripts. You

1079
00:59:54,167 --> 00:59:58,887
Speaker 2: can check my recorded audio, you know, next to the piece,

1080
00:59:59,007 --> 01:00:02,647
Speaker 2: and it's a true representation of what I saw and heard.

1081
01:00:03,047 --> 01:00:06,447
Speaker 2: So that was that. And I was getting these masters

1082
01:00:06,487 --> 01:00:10,407
Speaker 2: like you're being sued, and I was like, I don't

1083
01:00:10,407 --> 01:00:12,927
Speaker 2: think we are. I think I'd know that, So there

1084
01:00:12,967 --> 01:00:14,847
Speaker 2: wasn't any I mean, it was, as I say, it

1085
01:00:14,887 --> 01:00:17,087
Speaker 2: was a true representation of what I experience. So there

1086
01:00:17,127 --> 01:00:18,967
Speaker 2: was nothing that much that could be done.

1087
01:00:19,127 --> 01:00:20,727
Speaker 1: Last question, do you think she's happy?

1088
01:00:21,607 --> 01:00:25,647
Speaker 2: I think that she has grown up in a community

1089
01:00:26,407 --> 01:00:31,247
Speaker 2: and a world which doesn't allow her to be connected

1090
01:00:31,727 --> 01:00:36,207
Speaker 2: to the question, Am I happy?

1091
01:00:37,167 --> 01:00:37,567
Speaker 3: Oh?

1092
01:00:37,727 --> 01:00:41,407
Speaker 1: I would love to hear Hannah Nielman interviewed on our podcast,

1093
01:00:42,007 --> 01:00:44,007
Speaker 1: But are you happy? I wonder if she is happy?

1094
01:00:44,607 --> 01:00:47,327
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's not fair to suggest that

1095
01:00:47,407 --> 01:00:51,487
Speaker 1: she's not. If she says she's happy, maybe she is happy.

1096
01:00:52,007 --> 01:00:54,847
Speaker 1: But I think that question sums up so much of

1097
01:00:55,087 --> 01:00:58,367
Speaker 1: why we're fascinated by the whole trad wife thing, because

1098
01:00:58,367 --> 01:01:01,887
Speaker 1: on one hand, it is kind of alluring. Right, life

1099
01:01:01,927 --> 01:01:08,287
Speaker 1: is exhausting, and ambition and carea and cities can be exhausting,

1100
01:01:08,927 --> 01:01:12,127
Speaker 1: and we do live in a culture that centers grind

1101
01:01:12,247 --> 01:01:15,447
Speaker 1: and hustle and sort of idolizes it. And there is

1102
01:01:15,447 --> 01:01:18,127
Speaker 1: some legitimate pushback to that, and I think that is

1103
01:01:18,207 --> 01:01:23,127
Speaker 1: valuable cultural criticism. But look, let's be honest, what the

1104
01:01:23,207 --> 01:01:29,127
Speaker 1: traadwives are selling is a little bit dubious because it's

1105
01:01:29,247 --> 01:01:32,207
Speaker 1: not easy. They make it look easy, but parenting eight

1106
01:01:32,327 --> 01:01:36,647
Speaker 1: kids living on a farm, making meals from scratch, that's

1107
01:01:36,807 --> 01:01:41,167
Speaker 1: no easier than working at a job in a city,

1108
01:01:41,767 --> 01:01:45,047
Speaker 1: is it. I mean, it might make her happier, but

1109
01:01:45,167 --> 01:01:49,527
Speaker 1: it's certainly not easier, because Hanna Nielman is working hard,

1110
01:01:49,647 --> 01:01:53,127
Speaker 1: man so hard that she sometimes can't get out of

1111
01:01:53,127 --> 01:01:55,287
Speaker 1: bed for a week. And I can't stop thinking about that,

1112
01:01:56,007 --> 01:01:59,087
Speaker 1: because when she's in bed for a week, who does

1113
01:01:59,127 --> 01:02:02,767
Speaker 1: milk the cows? And how does Daniel look after the

1114
01:02:02,847 --> 01:02:05,967
Speaker 1: eight kids and make all the meals from scratch and

1115
01:02:06,007 --> 01:02:08,167
Speaker 1: do all the other things that he has to do.

1116
01:02:09,247 --> 01:02:12,007
Speaker 1: You don't see that exhaustion anywhere on her Instagram. She

1117
01:02:12,087 --> 01:02:15,247
Speaker 1: doesn't mention when she's just had to take a week

1118
01:02:15,327 --> 01:02:18,727
Speaker 1: out to be unconscious in bed, because I guess that

1119
01:02:18,767 --> 01:02:23,047
Speaker 1: exhaustion doesn't sell products or gain you followers, or convince

1120
01:02:23,207 --> 01:02:27,207
Speaker 1: other women to buy your stuff or to try treadwifing

1121
01:02:27,247 --> 01:02:30,967
Speaker 1: for themselves. And look, I'm all for doing what we

1122
01:02:31,087 --> 01:02:35,087
Speaker 1: can to make ourselves happy and simplify our lives and

1123
01:02:35,127 --> 01:02:38,687
Speaker 1: connect with nature. If nature is your jam, it's not

1124
01:02:38,767 --> 01:02:42,567
Speaker 1: really my jam. I do like cows, but I don't

1125
01:02:42,607 --> 01:02:45,887
Speaker 1: think i'd want to live with them. I'm all for

1126
01:02:45,967 --> 01:02:48,287
Speaker 1: women living their lives exactly how they want. And I

1127
01:02:48,327 --> 01:02:51,407
Speaker 1: don't judge what Hannah and the other child wives are doing.

1128
01:02:51,487 --> 01:02:54,727
Speaker 1: I judge kind of the idea of them selling a

1129
01:02:54,807 --> 01:02:59,447
Speaker 1: lifestyle that they make look one way and don't show

1130
01:02:59,807 --> 01:03:03,687
Speaker 1: what it's actually like. And in America right now, there's

1131
01:03:03,687 --> 01:03:06,167
Speaker 1: a sort of an underpinning to all of this, as

1132
01:03:06,207 --> 01:03:11,607
Speaker 1: Megan said, about this strong conservative religion underpinning of a

1133
01:03:11,647 --> 01:03:14,927
Speaker 1: woman's place and this idea of I think the reason

1134
01:03:14,967 --> 01:03:17,967
Speaker 1: it makes so many women crazy is that this is

1135
01:03:18,007 --> 01:03:21,087
Speaker 1: where we came from, this expectation that we should look

1136
01:03:21,127 --> 01:03:24,287
Speaker 1: beautiful and raise all our children and never complain and

1137
01:03:24,327 --> 01:03:26,967
Speaker 1: make all the meals from scratch and be really fulfilled

1138
01:03:27,007 --> 01:03:29,127
Speaker 1: by that. And it's not to say that some women aren't,

1139
01:03:29,887 --> 01:03:34,287
Speaker 1: but not all women are. In fact, most women probably aren't.

1140
01:03:35,287 --> 01:03:37,967
Speaker 1: So yeah, this is something that we are really looking

1141
01:03:38,007 --> 01:03:41,607
Speaker 1: at closely on no filter, this whole trade wife phenomenon,

1142
01:03:41,647 --> 01:03:45,767
Speaker 1: because the steaks are really high and you know, for

1143
01:03:45,847 --> 01:03:47,447
Speaker 1: some people it might just be a little bit like

1144
01:03:47,487 --> 01:03:50,247
Speaker 1: watching a cooking show when you don't cook. It's kind

1145
01:03:50,247 --> 01:03:52,647
Speaker 1: of soothing. I've got lots of friends who watch trad

1146
01:03:52,727 --> 01:03:56,767
Speaker 1: rife content like that just kind of to escape in

1147
01:03:56,767 --> 01:03:59,607
Speaker 1: the same way that I watch maybe fashion videos about

1148
01:03:59,607 --> 01:04:02,847
Speaker 1: street style on YouTube. But we have got more stories

1149
01:04:02,927 --> 01:04:06,127
Speaker 1: about trad wife life coming down the pipeline, and we've

1150
01:04:06,127 --> 01:04:08,887
Speaker 1: already done several. I highly recommend that you listen to

1151
01:04:09,487 --> 01:04:14,047
Speaker 1: our episode with Tea Levings. She escaped her tradwife marriage

1152
01:04:14,087 --> 01:04:17,767
Speaker 1: barely and she is raising the alarm about what she

1153
01:04:17,847 --> 01:04:21,567
Speaker 1: says are the dangers of the trad wife ideology. Watch

1154
01:04:21,607 --> 01:04:24,207
Speaker 1: this space for more. The executive producer of No Filter

1155
01:04:24,687 --> 01:04:27,687
Speaker 1: is Niama Brown and somehow she managed to get through

1156
01:04:27,687 --> 01:04:32,607
Speaker 1: COVID without making a sour dough starter Dido. Audio on

1157
01:04:32,687 --> 01:04:35,607
Speaker 1: this show is by Tom Lyon, and he says if

1158
01:04:35,647 --> 01:04:39,087
Speaker 1: being trad makes you happy, then you do you, although

1159
01:04:39,407 --> 01:04:41,647
Speaker 1: he also says that his wife is the opposite of

1160
01:04:41,687 --> 01:04:44,727
Speaker 1: a trad wife. Her career is soaring and she out

1161
01:04:44,767 --> 01:04:48,247
Speaker 1: earns him. But this works for Tom just fine. I'm

1162
01:04:48,287 --> 01:04:51,367
Speaker 1: your host, Maya Friedman, and the most tradwifey thing about

1163
01:04:51,407 --> 01:04:53,207
Speaker 1: me is nothing.

1164
01:04:55,287 --> 01:04:55,847
Speaker 2: See soon