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Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm M with mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hi U bis A little reminder before we get into

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Speaker 2: today's episode. This interview provides general advice only and doesn't

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Speaker 2: constitute medical advice. As always, please seek advice from a

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Speaker 2: qualified professional for your individual circumstances.

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Speaker 1: Makeup is my therapy.

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Speaker 2: I'm obsessed and I don't even feel guilty about it.

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to you, beauty. I'm Keaylly McCarran.

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Speaker 2: This is the daily podcast for your Face and this

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Speaker 2: is the formula. Every week I dive into the routine,

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Speaker 2: the science, the recommendations of the best in the business.

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Speaker 2: And today I'm super lucky because I've got doctor Ginneon

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Speaker 2: and she's one of the new hosts of the brand

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Speaker 2: new podcast Unleashed, the podcast for gen X women who

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Speaker 2: want to laugh, helpful, funny and it's slightly unhinged, which

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Speaker 2: is pretty much my personal brand. So Obsessed. Ginny is

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Speaker 2: an Aussie GP and you might recognize her because she's

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Speaker 2: on Sunrise often the morning show as their resident GP.

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Speaker 2: She's also the co founder of evidence based cosmeceutical skincare

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Speaker 2: brand ESK. She's made a name for herself within the

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Speaker 2: beauty industry, and she's even become known as the menopause whisper.

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Speaker 2: And I personally am very happy because I asked her

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Speaker 2: if she thought I was Perry because my husband thinks

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Speaker 2: I'm Perry, and she was like, absolutely not, You're far

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Speaker 2: too young.

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Speaker 1: So thank you, Ginny.

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Speaker 2: And today she's going to let us in on the

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Speaker 2: changes that midlife has on your skin and give us

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Speaker 2: the ultimate guide to Perry and menopause skincare.

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Speaker 1: So let's get into it.

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Speaker 3: You are such beautiful skill.

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Speaker 2: But how all right, Ginny, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: joining me today.

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Speaker 1: We're so excited. We have absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Loved hearing you on Unleashed. What was it that drew

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Speaker 2: you to being part of that show?

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Speaker 3: Listen?

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Speaker 4: If Mayor gives me a call and says will you

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Speaker 4: I'm pretty much yes before I hear what it is,

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Speaker 4: So that's.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like line me up.

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Speaker 1: She's trying to ask you to do something dull and

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Speaker 1: so good.

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Speaker 4: And this is such a cracker group of women, like

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Speaker 4: this is the gen X group chat that like, all

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Speaker 4: of my girlfriends have these amazing group chats that like

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Speaker 4: I just feel like I missed out on them. I

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Speaker 4: am not in a million group chats. This is the

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Speaker 4: funniest one by far. It is so much fun.

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Speaker 1: That is so good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Actually, I mean I'm a millennial, but whenever I hear

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Speaker 2: people talking about group chats, I'm like, yeah, I don't

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Speaker 2: have time for just normal chats, let alone these big

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Speaker 2: group chats. They also stress me out. If I open

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Speaker 2: up a thread and there's one hundred messages and absolutely not,

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Speaker 2: I just bow out straightaway.

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Speaker 3: I get anxiety. So I like, yeah, way too.

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Speaker 1: Not be bothered.

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Speaker 2: What is the number one thing that you want people

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Speaker 2: listening to this episode today to take away.

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Speaker 4: You don't need to spend the grand national debt of

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Speaker 4: a small country on your skin. You don't need a

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Speaker 4: fifteen part skincare routine in the morning, although if you

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Speaker 4: want to or power to you, I know it's really

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Speaker 4: boring going with evidence, but evidence still matters, like independent

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Speaker 4: peer of your trials are still I think. Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: just think like often we just keep coming back to

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Speaker 4: the same ingredients, and everybody wants the new latest miracle thing,

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Speaker 4: which is often proprietary and sponsored and complete bullshit.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about midlife skin crisis. What happens around

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Speaker 2: the age of forty that causes skin to feel like

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Speaker 2: it's just gone absolutely unhinged.

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Speaker 4: So to a certain extent, it is an age related thing,

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Speaker 4: like you've just accumulated a certain amount of like sun

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Speaker 4: damage for example, but a lot of it is hormonal

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Speaker 4: as well. So sorry, just a reminder, one oh one

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Speaker 4: of what hormones are doing around this stage your menopause

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Speaker 4: is when your ovaries have stopped even trying to get

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Speaker 4: you pregnant anymore.

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Speaker 3: They're just like going, Okay, we give up.

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Speaker 4: I'm bowing out. I'm not going into retirement. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 4: out of the green chat. I am not producing you

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Speaker 4: any more estrogen. And in the lead up to that,

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Speaker 4: you've got perimenopause, which can last up to ten years,

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Speaker 4: during which in the initial stages your estrogen is going

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Speaker 4: up and down, like I call it the hormonal trampoline,

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Speaker 4: and then eventually it just peters out very slowly until

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Speaker 4: it flat lines. That's menopause, right, So you need to

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Speaker 4: understand what estrogen does for your skin, and like, honestly

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Speaker 4: build a shrine to it. It is just the most

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Speaker 4: amazing hormone. So within the skin, it helps your skin

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Speaker 4: barrier function, It stimulates your fiberblast to actually make collagen

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Speaker 4: an elastin, but then it sticks matrix metalloprotenase one, you know,

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Speaker 4: that nasty enzyme that actually breaks down collagen in the skin.

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Speaker 4: It puts it on a leash and stops it from

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Speaker 4: actually breaking down collagen. It's anti inflammatory. It also kind

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Speaker 4: of counterbalances your testosterone and sort of keeps your testosterone

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Speaker 4: levels in check. And once you start going into perimenopause

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Speaker 4: and your estrogen starts to weanghe even if in the

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Speaker 4: beginning it's going up and down, it's those low estrogen

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Speaker 4: days that are going to send your skin absolutely like

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Speaker 4: so much happens as you go into menopause and you

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Speaker 4: lose your estrogen, and like women know, like they start

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Speaker 4: rapidly aging, they're studying to get drier, they're starting to

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Speaker 4: get each year, they're starting to get more sensitive. Everything

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Speaker 4: is going pair shaped around menopause, and it's all to

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Speaker 4: do with losing your estrogen.

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Speaker 2: What why sometimes can products that worked for us amazingly

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Speaker 2: in our thirties all of a sudden not work or

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Speaker 2: make our skin go absolutely haywire in our forties.

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Speaker 3: So I think there are a couple of things.

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Speaker 4: The first thing is, we know from studies that were

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Speaker 4: mostly done in the Netherlands, so mostly on European skin,

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Speaker 4: that seventy percent of women do report some sensitivity, some

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Speaker 4: skin sensitivity around the time of the menopause, and we

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Speaker 4: think what is going on there is mostly your impaired

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Speaker 4: skin barrier. You're losing your anti inflammatory benefits of your estrogen.

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Speaker 4: And then on top of that, for some reason, your

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Speaker 4: nerves go a little bit crazy around that time as well,

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Speaker 4: and so you do get more like pain stimulation, and

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Speaker 4: so sensitivity feels much worse around the menopause as well.

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Speaker 4: So there's all of that, and then on top of that,

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Speaker 4: you've got some other things happening. So let's say you

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Speaker 4: haven't had acne since you were like sixteen or twenty

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Speaker 4: or whatever, and now all of a sudden, your estrogen's

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Speaker 4: gone down, but your testosterone's kind of staying around the same,

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Speaker 4: so that imbalance is not great, and you've got the

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Speaker 4: pro inflammatory stuff happening, because testosterone in women is pro

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Speaker 4: inflammatory in the skin, not in men, but it is

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Speaker 4: in women, and you don't have the anti inflammatory estrogen.

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Speaker 4: So all of a sudden, like hello, is it's twenty

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Speaker 4: five percent if women in perimenopause, Just go, what is

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Speaker 4: this whopper on my face?

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Speaker 3: Don't really like.

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Speaker 1: This one of these for trade rade and adult.

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Speaker 4: Female acne, as you guys have discussed so much on

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Speaker 4: your biddy, is so different to teenage acne. It's such

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Speaker 4: a different beast. It's always hormonal. There's always stuff going

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Speaker 4: on there. Hello, Like it's the lower third of your face.

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Speaker 4: Always forget the T zone. It doesn't it Your forid

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Speaker 4: will be perfect. But it's like that lower third of

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Speaker 4: your face along the jaws going to get somewhat we

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Speaker 4: call trunkle acne along their like on their back. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's an adult female acne thing. Like that's a pairy thing.

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Speaker 4: You nearly always get some like ZiT on your back,

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Speaker 4: some ZiT on your on your chest. The problem with

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Speaker 4: the back ones is like so hard to get, like

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Speaker 4: especially when you've got perimenopause, dicky shoulders and you're not.

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Speaker 3: Trying to spray. Oh, the spray is the only thing,

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Speaker 3: the only thing you can use.

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Speaker 4: But like there's not You can't put vitamin a in

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Speaker 4: a spray like you can put some nice cinema.

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Speaker 3: You can put some salad acid. Yeah, back, but that's.

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Speaker 4: All you've got so it's often much harder to tackle

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Speaker 4: when you've got back acne. So all of those things happen,

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Speaker 4: and so some of the exclusives that were giving you

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Speaker 4: beautiful like moisturizing effect in your early forties, all of

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Speaker 4: a sudden it's like, hello, they're actually now giving me breakout,

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Speaker 4: which I'm not really happy about. So there's so much

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Speaker 4: that's happening. Plus Roseatiha makes a lovely appearance around this

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Speaker 4: time as well, So all of a sudden you're getting

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Speaker 4: like this red burning situation in your mid face. Do

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Speaker 4: not get some burnt You're going to really at that

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Speaker 4: because your whole face goes on fire. So there's just

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Speaker 4: a lot that's happening hormonally, and it's just not a

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Speaker 4: good time for skin.

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Speaker 3: Let's be honest.

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Speaker 1: It really just doesn't end for women, does it.

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Speaker 2: No. It's just like we have so many hormones when

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Speaker 2: we're teenagers, we just have the hormonal fluctuation throughout the

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Speaker 2: month with our regular cycle. Then if we decide to

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Speaker 2: have children, well that's a whole different beast.

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Speaker 1: Then perry and menopause not good. Why are we not

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Speaker 1: running the world?

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Speaker 4: We are like without experience behind our belts like we

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Speaker 4: should actually.

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Speaker 2: Be in charge of everyone because you know what stuff

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Speaker 2: would actually get done. Because the fact that we do

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Speaker 2: all of that, all of the hormone management, plus our

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Speaker 2: regular jobs rearing children.

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Speaker 1: We are superstars.

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Speaker 2: We are What do you think we should cut from

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Speaker 2: our routine if all of a sudden our skin goes

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Speaker 2: really sensitive. What's the one ingredient of product that you think, oh,

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Speaker 2: that could be causing a little bit of sensitivity.

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Speaker 3: So there are a few.

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Speaker 4: The first one that can be really big culprit is

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Speaker 4: your alphydroxy acid, So your glycolic and lactic acids, particularly

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Speaker 4: glycolic at anything over two percent is probably going to

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Speaker 4: irritate your skin a lot, even if you are used

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Speaker 4: to tolerating it super well. The other one that's an

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Speaker 4: interesting one is vitamin C because you've got some stabilized

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Speaker 4: forms of vitamin C, so your tetricopalmitates. Those kind of things,

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Speaker 4: they don't have a lot of evidence behind them. The

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Speaker 4: one that really has the evidence is the alloscorbic acid,

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Speaker 4: particularly that's that ten percent level, and in order for

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Speaker 4: it to be stabilized, it either has to be in

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Speaker 4: a stabilized form no evidence, or you need to put

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Speaker 4: it in a really low pH below three, and that

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Speaker 4: can be irritating as well. So plus it's an oil,

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Speaker 4: so you can break out. Just tread carefully with a

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Speaker 4: vitamin C anything with a dicky pH. So your pH

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Speaker 4: in premenopausal skin. So just from anyone who's a bit

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Speaker 4: traumatized by unite science, I apologize, But basically your pH

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Speaker 4: generally goes from zero like that's your car battery acid

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Speaker 4: not good, and fourteen is the bleach you're going to

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Speaker 4: clean you're doney with and.

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Speaker 3: Seven is neutral.

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Speaker 4: Seven point four is where your blood sits, and your

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Speaker 4: skin is acidic and it has this protective acid mantle

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Speaker 4: given to it by the bacteria that actually sit on

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Speaker 4: your skin and secrete acid, so we know that they're

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Speaker 4: really helpful.

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Speaker 3: They keep your skin barrier intact.

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Speaker 4: We look at about four point eight to five point

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Speaker 4: three for a premenopausal woman, and that just shifts a

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Speaker 4: bit higher, so around five point three to five point

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Speaker 4: eight for a postmenopausal woman because the bacteria changes once

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Speaker 4: you lose your estrogen.

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Speaker 3: And what we know is that if you deviate too far.

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Speaker 4: Towards alkaline in particular or acid as well, you can

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Speaker 4: actually disrupt your skin microbiome and your skin barrier function,

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Speaker 4: and that can cause a lot of irritation. And the

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Speaker 4: thing that concerns me is a lot of skincare brands

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Speaker 4: just you cannot find what the pH of these products are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I never even thought to looks.

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Speaker 4: It should be declared, Like if you have got nothing

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Speaker 4: to hide, why are you're not declaring it? And I've

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Speaker 4: seen some skincare brands that say, oh, the pH of

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Speaker 4: this product is between five point five and seven. That's

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Speaker 4: really poor quality control if you've got that big a range,

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Speaker 4: like what is going on there? And that's you need

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Speaker 4: to go and have it talk to your factory. And

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Speaker 4: then like I've seen other brands that go, the pairge

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Speaker 4: of this product is six point nine. You're like, that

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Speaker 4: is very specific and way too high. But like, I

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Speaker 4: think what you want to be doing is sort of

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Speaker 4: trying to target your skin's natural pH. So assuming that

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Speaker 4: postmenopause you get up to about five point eight, I

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Speaker 4: wouldn't be going any higher than that. Except for zinc

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Speaker 4: based on screens, it's impossible to make zinc anything other

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Speaker 4: than alkaline. Zinc is a very alkaline element, but other

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Speaker 4: than that, most subvious skincare product should be in that

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Speaker 4: slightly more acidic range just to work with your skin

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Speaker 4: and stop trying to impair your skin barrier. Okay, so

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Speaker 4: those are that I think my main culpras.

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Speaker 3: But man, you can react to anything.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I so many of my patients like have

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Speaker 4: been trial a luring along on them, like the most

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Speaker 4: amazing products, and then all of a sudden they're reacting

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Speaker 4: to everything. Like certainly your retinoids, your vitamin as can

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Speaker 4: all of a sudden stop burning like crazy.

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Speaker 1: So I guess it's just case by case.

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Speaker 2: So talking about the hormonal acne, what are some ingredients

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Speaker 2: that someone dealing with hormonal breakouts should steer clear of

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Speaker 2: versus something that she should reach for, bearing in mind

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Speaker 2: that she's in this era of perry or metopause.

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Speaker 4: So I think if you've got bog standard adult female acne,

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Speaker 4: so we say, any acne after the age of twenty

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Speaker 4: five becomes afa adult female acne and it's hormonal, it's

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Speaker 4: less likely to just be a standard thing that you

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Speaker 4: have during problem or something. We're starting to research the gut.

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Speaker 4: We really are in our infancy. We don't know what

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Speaker 4: a normal gut microbiome should be let alone what somebody

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Speaker 4: with acne has. So I think that there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of commercial interests that have run way ahead at the

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Speaker 4: science there.

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Speaker 3: But in terms of.

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Speaker 4: Like a thirty five year old with acne, or like

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Speaker 4: somebody who's got pregnancy and acne, that's a different thing

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Speaker 4: because we can't use retinoids for women. But if you're

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Speaker 4: a thirty year old, you're not pregnant, man, your skin.

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Speaker 3: Is pretty robust. We can throw alphydroxy acids.

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Speaker 4: Like, man, you need like a two percent glycolic on there, like,

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Speaker 4: go for it. You can use practically anything. Come your perimenopause,

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Speaker 4: when you've got a disrupted skin microbio and you've got

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Speaker 4: a disrupted skin barrier function, you're super sensitive. A whole

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Speaker 4: lot of things that were beautifully in your thirties are

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Speaker 4: going to be awful for you, like you just can't

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Speaker 4: tolerate them. So while I love a glycolic acid for

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Speaker 4: an adult female acne person with who's like thirty, not

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Speaker 4: super kan on that for a woman in perimenopause, particularly

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Speaker 4: if she's going through sensitivity. Plus, I'm always worried like

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Speaker 4: a lot of women assume it's acne. If you've got

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Speaker 4: pimples in the middle of your face, and it's not

287
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Speaker 4: the lower third of your face. Just make sure it's

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Speaker 4: not roseasia because roseaiesia can look a lot like acne.

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Speaker 4: The pimples are smaller, you don't tend to get those

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Speaker 4: big whoppers like the big blind pimples. But it's in

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Speaker 4: the middle of your face, that middle third of your face,

292
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Speaker 4: and then it's.

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Speaker 3: Super super sensitive.

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Speaker 4: So don't miss the diagnosis because if it's roseatia, it's

295
00:14:06,634 --> 00:14:09,354
Speaker 4: all about skin barrier repair. The things that I would

296
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Speaker 4: kind of avoid for a perimenopausal woman with acne are

297
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Speaker 4: your glycolics, prescription vitamin A can be an absolute killer,

298
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Speaker 4: even retinal you can get that retinal burn when you

299
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Speaker 4: never had it before. I think they're the things that

300
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Speaker 4: I would really stick clear of, and obviously anything like

301
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Speaker 4: a vitamin C that could actually be exclusive and actually

302
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Speaker 4: cause a breakout, definitely stick clear of that.

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Speaker 2: So quite similar then to just the same products to

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Speaker 2: avoid if you're suffering from sensitivity.

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Speaker 4: Well, I know we've talked a lot about it on

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Speaker 4: you Beauty, but I think retinel is that Goldilocks retinoid

307
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Speaker 4: because it is as effective in head to head trials

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Speaker 4: as prescription vitamin a, but it's just completely non irritating.

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Speaker 2: Which is really refreshing to hear. I love like talking

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Speaker 2: about retinal. We can link episodes that we've done prior

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Speaker 2: in the show notes where we go into the deep

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Speaker 2: weeds of all of the differences. But thinking about what

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Speaker 2: you just said, it's almost like that was the.

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Speaker 1: Just right bowl of porridge for God.

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Speaker 2: So the retinol is too cold and then the vitamin

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Speaker 2: A prescription is too hot, but the retinal is just right.

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Speaker 2: And why is it that so many people are recommending

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Speaker 2: a prescription over the retinal there.

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Speaker 3: Look to be fair.

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Speaker 4: If you want the most studies, like the biggest number

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Speaker 4: of studies, they've been done in prescription vitamin A, hands down,

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Speaker 4: that's where most of the research has been and so

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Speaker 4: a lot of dermatologists use that. But what they start

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Speaker 4: telling people of our age is so when I say

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Speaker 4: our age, I'm twenty years older than you. So that

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Speaker 4: that's not good but sorry to make you feel really old.

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Speaker 4: But like for people my age, often what they goes, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know what, just sandwich it like, put some moisturizer on,

329
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Speaker 4: then put on your prescription vitamin A, then put on

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Speaker 4: another layer of moisturizer. Well, we've now diluted the shit

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Speaker 4: out of that vitamin A. So now you maybe got

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Speaker 4: prescribed a point five percent prescription vitamin A, but now

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Speaker 4: what we've got is a point five because when you've

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Speaker 4: got all these other products on your face, you've got

335
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Speaker 4: no evidence that that works.

336
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Speaker 3: Or they say use it three times a week.

337
00:16:10,634 --> 00:16:13,074
Speaker 4: No studies have been done of prescription vitamin A A

338
00:16:13,154 --> 00:16:15,674
Speaker 4: three times a week, like, it's only been done. All

339
00:16:15,674 --> 00:16:18,034
Speaker 4: the studies have been done at the point five percent

340
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Speaker 4: or the point six percent or the point one percent.

341
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Speaker 4: That's the only levels of which we've got any evidence,

342
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Speaker 4: and they've only been studied at every single night, so.

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Speaker 1: Every single night over how long of a period.

344
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Speaker 4: Different studies have looked at different timeframes, but more.

345
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Speaker 1: Than a couple of weeks.

346
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Speaker 4: I'm assuming what we're looking to do is to increase

347
00:16:34,554 --> 00:16:36,914
Speaker 4: skin cell turnover. Now, it does work as an antioxid

348
00:16:36,914 --> 00:16:38,754
Speaker 4: and it is anti inflammatory. It has all of those

349
00:16:38,794 --> 00:16:41,954
Speaker 4: properties as well, and it's also antibacterial, particularly in the

350
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Speaker 4: case of retinew. We've got really good evidence for retinow

351
00:16:44,954 --> 00:16:48,954
Speaker 4: being antibacterial, not so much the prescription stuff, but in

352
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Speaker 4: terms of the skin cell cycle. In someone like you,

353
00:16:52,234 --> 00:16:53,954
Speaker 4: it's going to be twenty eight days. But as you

354
00:16:53,994 --> 00:16:56,394
Speaker 4: get older, and particularly if your skin is not healthy,

355
00:16:56,674 --> 00:16:58,834
Speaker 4: your skin cells don't turn over that quickly, and it

356
00:16:58,914 --> 00:17:00,674
Speaker 4: can be We used to think sixty days, and now

357
00:17:00,674 --> 00:17:03,434
Speaker 4: there's evidence it's up to ninety days that your skin cells,

358
00:17:03,594 --> 00:17:06,274
Speaker 4: your superficial skin cells hang around. So you gotta wait,

359
00:17:06,394 --> 00:17:09,073
Speaker 4: you gotta really it's not going to be You're not

360
00:17:09,074 --> 00:17:10,714
Speaker 4: going to wake up the next morning and go, wow,

361
00:17:10,994 --> 00:17:12,914
Speaker 4: I amazing, I look ten years younger.

362
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Speaker 3: You've really got to invest, like you're.

363
00:17:14,914 --> 00:17:18,114
Speaker 4: Really looking at three weeks minimum, But I would prefer

364
00:17:18,194 --> 00:17:21,313
Speaker 4: like six weeks to really give your skin cells an

365
00:17:21,354 --> 00:17:23,914
Speaker 4: opportunity to turn over and get those baby ones out

366
00:17:24,234 --> 00:17:28,074
Speaker 4: being renewed, not actually trapping as much oil and dirt

367
00:17:28,114 --> 00:17:30,914
Speaker 4: and bacteria in your pores to you in the case

368
00:17:30,954 --> 00:17:34,114
Speaker 4: of acne, to really shed the pigmentation out of your skin,

369
00:17:34,154 --> 00:17:36,594
Speaker 4: you really need at least six weeks and ideally like

370
00:17:36,634 --> 00:17:37,434
Speaker 4: twelve weeks.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've had hundreds of people on the pod

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Speaker 2: talking about the benefits of retinol and what preference they have.

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00:17:44,754 --> 00:17:49,114
Speaker 2: You are the first person to actually explain and point

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Speaker 2: out that so many people that are recommending a prescription

375
00:17:52,234 --> 00:17:54,954
Speaker 2: vitamin A are looking at the studies of using it

376
00:17:54,994 --> 00:17:58,033
Speaker 2: every single day, but the average person cannot tolerate it

377
00:17:58,074 --> 00:17:58,874
Speaker 2: every single day.

378
00:17:59,274 --> 00:18:03,474
Speaker 4: In studies, sixty percent of people prescribe a prescription version

379
00:18:03,594 --> 00:18:07,394
Speaker 4: of the retinoic acid actually have to discontinue because course

380
00:18:07,554 --> 00:18:11,754
Speaker 4: of irritation. And that includes twenty year olds with acne

381
00:18:11,874 --> 00:18:13,954
Speaker 4: who you think you can throw anything at their skin.

382
00:18:14,274 --> 00:18:16,914
Speaker 4: In fact, acne skin often has a disrupted skin barrier

383
00:18:16,994 --> 00:18:19,033
Speaker 4: that actually don't do that well on a retinoid. But

384
00:18:19,074 --> 00:18:21,513
Speaker 4: like most people can't tolerate it, which is why we

385
00:18:21,634 --> 00:18:24,074
Speaker 4: start to change it a little bit. But now we've

386
00:18:24,114 --> 00:18:26,434
Speaker 4: deviated way away from where the evidence is.

387
00:18:26,554 --> 00:18:30,234
Speaker 2: Another joy we would like to discuss is pigmentation. Yeah,

388
00:18:30,514 --> 00:18:34,354
Speaker 2: how do we tell the difference between malasma and sunspots

389
00:18:34,834 --> 00:18:37,513
Speaker 2: and when do you need to do something about it?

390
00:18:37,674 --> 00:18:39,874
Speaker 4: So you don't need to do anything about pigmentation, I

391
00:18:39,874 --> 00:18:41,634
Speaker 4: would get it checked if it's a new spot and

392
00:18:41,674 --> 00:18:43,634
Speaker 4: make sure that it's not a melanoma, because it is

393
00:18:43,794 --> 00:18:46,194
Speaker 4: really hard for the layperson to actually tell what is

394
00:18:46,234 --> 00:18:48,474
Speaker 4: a melanoma. So if you're in doubt, go and get

395
00:18:48,474 --> 00:18:52,794
Speaker 4: it checked out. Malasma is generally it's only on sun

396
00:18:52,874 --> 00:18:56,314
Speaker 4: exposed skin. So if you start getting malasma like underhere,

397
00:18:56,754 --> 00:18:59,834
Speaker 4: that is not malasma. That's a different form of pigmentation.

398
00:19:00,234 --> 00:19:02,834
Speaker 4: It's always symmetrical, so you're gonna see if it's on

399
00:19:02,834 --> 00:19:05,634
Speaker 4: one cheek, it's on the other cheek. So with sun'spolly

400
00:19:05,954 --> 00:19:07,074
Speaker 4: if you only.

401
00:19:06,794 --> 00:19:08,994
Speaker 1: Ever put sunscreen on one side of your face.

402
00:19:09,754 --> 00:19:12,634
Speaker 4: Because it is always sun exposed. Yeah, so if we

403
00:19:12,754 --> 00:19:14,154
Speaker 4: I mean, do people do that?

404
00:19:14,514 --> 00:19:17,954
Speaker 2: Well, now that's the way that my brain wilf it's symmetrical.

405
00:19:18,554 --> 00:19:21,274
Speaker 2: How would that work though? Would I do you want

406
00:19:21,314 --> 00:19:21,954
Speaker 2: me to go test?

407
00:19:22,874 --> 00:19:24,874
Speaker 3: Do you want a test? No? I don't know. No.

408
00:19:25,274 --> 00:19:27,434
Speaker 4: On the whole, what we say is it's going to

409
00:19:27,434 --> 00:19:29,954
Speaker 4: be symmetrical because sun exposure. I mean, look, if you're

410
00:19:29,954 --> 00:19:32,634
Speaker 4: a trockey in Australia, it's always going to be worse

411
00:19:32,634 --> 00:19:35,033
Speaker 4: on the right side. But what we see more with

412
00:19:35,154 --> 00:19:37,594
Speaker 4: solo entergenus which you see your sun spots, is they

413
00:19:37,714 --> 00:19:39,634
Speaker 4: really start to come up after menopause.

414
00:19:40,274 --> 00:19:41,793
Speaker 3: Ninety percent of women over.

415
00:19:41,674 --> 00:19:43,994
Speaker 4: The age of fifty actually have a solo landed genus

416
00:19:43,994 --> 00:19:46,994
Speaker 4: sunspot and they often don't recognize them. They might be

417
00:19:47,074 --> 00:19:49,234
Speaker 4: quite small, and then they get bigger and bigger and bigger,

418
00:19:49,874 --> 00:19:52,154
Speaker 4: And if you have a look under a microscope, there's

419
00:19:52,234 --> 00:19:55,674
Speaker 4: much more skin damage under a sunspot. So you do

420
00:19:55,754 --> 00:19:58,674
Speaker 4: get a concentration of melano sites at the base of

421
00:19:58,754 --> 00:20:00,834
Speaker 4: the epidermis under a sunspot.

422
00:20:01,034 --> 00:20:01,874
Speaker 3: But on top of.

423
00:20:01,834 --> 00:20:05,313
Speaker 4: That you've got a lot of buckling, a lot of

424
00:20:05,714 --> 00:20:09,114
Speaker 4: collagen tangles that actually trap the pigment in that one spot.

425
00:20:09,394 --> 00:20:10,394
Speaker 3: It's often genetic.

426
00:20:10,394 --> 00:20:14,313
Speaker 4: You'll often say women, mum, sister cousin has it in

427
00:20:14,354 --> 00:20:18,554
Speaker 4: the same spot, and out it comes, and it can

428
00:20:18,594 --> 00:20:20,994
Speaker 4: be really difficult to tell them apart. The other one

429
00:20:21,034 --> 00:20:23,114
Speaker 4: that's really common that no one talks about is post

430
00:20:23,154 --> 00:20:27,234
Speaker 4: inflammatory hyperpigmentation, And just to double tap on that, that's

431
00:20:27,354 --> 00:20:30,474
Speaker 4: really common. If you have sensitive burning skin, do not

432
00:20:30,594 --> 00:20:34,274
Speaker 4: use a skin product that's actually burning like no, like

433
00:20:34,314 --> 00:20:36,554
Speaker 4: a lot of people think that if it burns and sizzles,

434
00:20:36,874 --> 00:20:40,034
Speaker 4: that's really working. No, it's actually causing inflammation in your skin.

435
00:20:40,074 --> 00:20:43,954
Speaker 3: Don't do that. But even like after laser BBL.

436
00:20:43,554 --> 00:20:47,553
Speaker 4: Needling peels, it is really common, particularly in people with

437
00:20:47,634 --> 00:20:49,954
Speaker 4: skin of color, and we've got a lot like one

438
00:20:49,954 --> 00:20:52,994
Speaker 4: in ten Australians is Asian and South Asian skin is

439
00:20:53,074 --> 00:20:56,994
Speaker 4: genetic it's very common to get post inflammatory hyperpigmentation, very

440
00:20:57,034 --> 00:21:00,273
Speaker 4: common after acne. If you pick at an acne spot

441
00:21:00,714 --> 00:21:03,594
Speaker 4: and you get a purple ring around it, that is

442
00:21:03,594 --> 00:21:06,554
Speaker 4: posting inflammatory hyperpigmentation, and it's so hard to.

443
00:21:06,474 --> 00:21:08,554
Speaker 3: Get rid of. It's really really difficult.

444
00:21:08,954 --> 00:21:12,834
Speaker 4: And while all pigmentation roughly is kind of treated the same,

445
00:21:13,474 --> 00:21:16,754
Speaker 4: there are a few differences. So I think, particularly for

446
00:21:16,834 --> 00:21:20,474
Speaker 4: post inflammatory hyperpigmentation, if we don't address the cause of

447
00:21:20,514 --> 00:21:24,594
Speaker 4: the inflammation, the underlying acne, the dermatitis, the dried skin,

448
00:21:24,634 --> 00:21:26,754
Speaker 4: the impaired skin barrier, it's just going to come back.

449
00:21:26,794 --> 00:21:29,114
Speaker 4: We also, if you go back and have more laser,

450
00:21:29,194 --> 00:21:30,714
Speaker 4: it's going to come back more and more and more.

451
00:21:30,794 --> 00:21:33,434
Speaker 4: Like some people should not be having laser, but with

452
00:21:33,514 --> 00:21:37,194
Speaker 4: solo lenta genes to smash up that pigment, we really

453
00:21:37,194 --> 00:21:40,474
Speaker 4: do need laser first. Laser or BBL is the first

454
00:21:40,474 --> 00:21:42,273
Speaker 4: thing that we do. As not to say don't use

455
00:21:42,274 --> 00:21:44,354
Speaker 4: skin care. You probably want to do your skin care

456
00:21:44,394 --> 00:21:49,154
Speaker 4: before and afterwards, particular your tyrosinase inhibitors. But it's definitely

457
00:21:49,234 --> 00:21:52,354
Speaker 4: a laser first for solo lenter genes, a laser last

458
00:21:52,434 --> 00:21:55,354
Speaker 4: for post inflammatory hyperpigmentation and malasma.

459
00:21:55,514 --> 00:21:56,514
Speaker 3: Can probably do a bit of.

460
00:21:56,434 --> 00:22:03,834
Speaker 2: Both if we only have the budget and the patience

461
00:22:03,914 --> 00:22:06,154
Speaker 2: for one evidence based ingredient.

462
00:22:06,834 --> 00:22:08,594
Speaker 1: What is the absolute heavy hitter.

463
00:22:08,874 --> 00:22:10,474
Speaker 4: Okay, so I wouldn't be a doctor if I didn't

464
00:22:10,474 --> 00:22:13,674
Speaker 4: say sunscreen. Oh yes, and sunscreen is three hundred and

465
00:22:13,714 --> 00:22:16,074
Speaker 4: sixty five days a year from sun up to sundown,

466
00:22:16,714 --> 00:22:18,674
Speaker 4: even in front of your computer. Because now we're finding

467
00:22:18,714 --> 00:22:21,073
Speaker 4: out more about the blue light that's submitted by your computer.

468
00:22:21,554 --> 00:22:22,874
Speaker 3: We know that the sun's.

469
00:22:22,634 --> 00:22:25,434
Speaker 4: UVB rays, which is where your SPF protects here from,

470
00:22:25,994 --> 00:22:29,794
Speaker 4: is about burning and skin cancer. But the UVA rays

471
00:22:29,834 --> 00:22:33,033
Speaker 4: for aging and pigmentation are there right through the day

472
00:22:33,074 --> 00:22:33,994
Speaker 4: and they go through glass.

473
00:22:33,994 --> 00:22:35,354
Speaker 3: So I'm just going to put that out there.

474
00:22:35,354 --> 00:22:37,714
Speaker 4: But if I assuming that you were already done, we're

475
00:22:37,714 --> 00:22:39,754
Speaker 4: already sold on the on the sunscreen. If you had

476
00:22:39,754 --> 00:22:42,793
Speaker 4: to choose one where the evidence it is really a

477
00:22:42,874 --> 00:22:43,354
Speaker 4: vitamin A.

478
00:22:43,954 --> 00:22:46,674
Speaker 1: Do you have any suggestions or favorites that you like.

479
00:22:47,034 --> 00:22:49,674
Speaker 4: Well, I've got a conflict of interest, yes, because I

480
00:22:49,714 --> 00:22:51,954
Speaker 4: have recommend your own, I'm going to recommend my own,

481
00:22:51,994 --> 00:22:55,234
Speaker 4: so and that is a complete conflict of interest. Look,

482
00:22:55,274 --> 00:22:58,714
Speaker 4: the reason why I would go for the ESK Ultimate

483
00:22:58,754 --> 00:23:04,434
Speaker 4: A Gold is because it's a zero point one percent retinel.

484
00:23:04,914 --> 00:23:07,553
Speaker 4: So retinel comes in a point oh five percent or

485
00:23:07,554 --> 00:23:10,594
Speaker 4: a point oh six percent. Some people say that they've

486
00:23:10,634 --> 00:23:12,714
Speaker 4: got a one percent right now. You cannot do one

487
00:23:12,714 --> 00:23:14,754
Speaker 4: percent right now. They're buying a one percent right now

488
00:23:14,794 --> 00:23:17,754
Speaker 4: blend from a proprietor, which happens to be in the

489
00:23:17,834 --> 00:23:20,234
Speaker 4: United States, but that's another story. And then they're adding

490
00:23:20,274 --> 00:23:21,914
Speaker 4: that into their product. I don't know what the finished

491
00:23:21,914 --> 00:23:26,114
Speaker 4: product is. You want overall, there'll be a point one percent.

492
00:23:26,594 --> 00:23:29,554
Speaker 4: If you have pigmentation. For anti aging, point oh six

493
00:23:29,554 --> 00:23:31,834
Speaker 4: percent is fine. There's a lot of evidence in point

494
00:23:31,874 --> 00:23:34,313
Speaker 4: o six. But if you've got pigmentation, which is as

495
00:23:34,354 --> 00:23:36,394
Speaker 4: I said, ninety percent of women over the age of fifty,

496
00:23:36,914 --> 00:23:40,034
Speaker 4: or if you have acne, then you want a point

497
00:23:40,034 --> 00:23:44,074
Speaker 4: one percent. We have combined it with some gluconolactone, which

498
00:23:44,154 --> 00:23:47,553
Speaker 4: is a beautiful polyhydroxy acid, and we've combined it with

499
00:23:47,594 --> 00:23:50,033
Speaker 4: some nice cinemaid, and we've put a point one percent

500
00:23:50,034 --> 00:23:51,434
Speaker 4: four in but or resource and all, which is an

501
00:23:51,434 --> 00:23:54,194
Speaker 4: amazing toyrosinase inhibitor. So we've put all of that in

502
00:23:54,234 --> 00:23:57,034
Speaker 4: there together. Sounds very yeah, And it's got some ceramides

503
00:23:57,034 --> 00:23:58,514
Speaker 4: and it's got some hyaluronic.

504
00:23:58,074 --> 00:24:00,074
Speaker 1: Acid, so it's just like juicy as well.

505
00:24:00,114 --> 00:24:02,073
Speaker 3: It's juicy. It's just got a lot of things in it.

506
00:24:02,194 --> 00:24:04,834
Speaker 4: So you only ever use ret now at night or

507
00:24:04,874 --> 00:24:07,754
Speaker 4: any prescription vitamin A or any retinal because it gets

508
00:24:07,794 --> 00:24:10,553
Speaker 4: broken down by sunlight. So it's just a waste of money. Really,

509
00:24:10,794 --> 00:24:13,074
Speaker 4: don't use a retinol in the morning. It's just throwing

510
00:24:13,074 --> 00:24:15,034
Speaker 4: your money in the bin. I like that product because

511
00:24:15,034 --> 00:24:16,274
Speaker 4: it's just like got a bit or.

512
00:24:16,194 --> 00:24:17,194
Speaker 3: Something for everyone in there.

513
00:24:17,274 --> 00:24:20,553
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sounds it and it's super well tolerated because

514
00:24:21,034 --> 00:24:23,794
Speaker 4: we've worked really hard to keep the pH below five

515
00:24:23,834 --> 00:24:24,314
Speaker 4: point five.

516
00:24:24,714 --> 00:24:26,194
Speaker 3: I'm like obsessed with pH.

517
00:24:26,514 --> 00:24:28,594
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it today. More about that.

518
00:24:28,514 --> 00:24:31,074
Speaker 4: You, Yeah, study so there are just I can send

519
00:24:31,074 --> 00:24:33,234
Speaker 4: you so many studies on how important the pH of

520
00:24:33,234 --> 00:24:35,154
Speaker 4: your skin care is and it's like it's just like

521
00:24:35,274 --> 00:24:37,313
Speaker 4: nobody talks about it the open in the room, and

522
00:24:37,434 --> 00:24:40,194
Speaker 4: yet we have so many studies showing that you can

523
00:24:40,234 --> 00:24:43,793
Speaker 4: disrupt the pH of your skin by putting an alkaline

524
00:24:43,794 --> 00:24:46,474
Speaker 4: substance on of it. And it's hard to actually formulate

525
00:24:46,834 --> 00:24:49,194
Speaker 4: at a low pH. It's really difficult, Like you need

526
00:24:49,234 --> 00:24:50,234
Speaker 4: to send it back and send.

527
00:24:50,034 --> 00:24:52,394
Speaker 1: It back and why people aren't talking about it because.

528
00:24:52,314 --> 00:24:53,714
Speaker 3: Maybe it's too hard.

529
00:24:53,754 --> 00:24:56,154
Speaker 4: And also a lot of things that's not spoken about

530
00:24:56,194 --> 00:25:00,034
Speaker 4: with retinal is retention because it's really difficult to retain

531
00:25:00,474 --> 00:25:03,354
Speaker 4: your retinaal in your product at eighteen months. A lot

532
00:25:03,394 --> 00:25:05,114
Speaker 4: of the commercial products that are on the shelf at

533
00:25:05,114 --> 00:25:07,234
Speaker 4: the moment have got like ten percent left of the

534
00:25:07,314 --> 00:25:10,874
Speaker 4: ret now. So we're really big on retention essays, like

535
00:25:10,994 --> 00:25:13,273
Speaker 4: we keep it on shelves and we continue to test it,

536
00:25:13,274 --> 00:25:15,394
Speaker 4: and we continue to test it because I'm just so

537
00:25:15,594 --> 00:25:19,914
Speaker 4: paranoid about selling somebody something and then saying there's point

538
00:25:19,914 --> 00:25:21,914
Speaker 4: one percent right now in there and that actually is

539
00:25:21,994 --> 00:25:24,634
Speaker 4: zero point h one percent. Yeah, that's not doing anything

540
00:25:24,634 --> 00:25:28,594
Speaker 4: for you. So I'm a bit ocd about I just

541
00:25:28,634 --> 00:25:30,154
Speaker 4: don't want to look anybody in the eyes and make

542
00:25:30,154 --> 00:25:31,474
Speaker 4: a claim that I can't stand behind.

543
00:25:31,514 --> 00:25:32,033
Speaker 3: So that's me.

544
00:25:32,194 --> 00:25:34,313
Speaker 4: But if you wanted to get a product and you're

545
00:25:34,314 --> 00:25:36,033
Speaker 4: thinking what should I be doing, I'd be looking for

546
00:25:36,034 --> 00:25:37,834
Speaker 4: a point oh six percent right now or a point

547
00:25:37,874 --> 00:25:41,793
Speaker 4: one percent right now ideally close to manufactured date if

548
00:25:41,834 --> 00:25:43,794
Speaker 4: you don't know who the manufacturer is and you don't

549
00:25:43,794 --> 00:25:46,954
Speaker 4: know what the retention is. Ideally a PHR five point

550
00:25:46,954 --> 00:25:50,353
Speaker 4: five or below that would be really perfect ideal. If

551
00:25:50,354 --> 00:25:51,594
Speaker 4: it has a bit of a nice cinemi'd in it

552
00:25:51,634 --> 00:25:53,114
Speaker 4: so you don't have to put too many products on

553
00:25:53,154 --> 00:25:54,954
Speaker 4: it once. And if they've chucked in a bit of

554
00:25:54,954 --> 00:25:56,954
Speaker 4: a polyhodroxy acid in so you don't need to use

555
00:25:56,954 --> 00:25:59,474
Speaker 4: a phacrem beforehand. That's just going to save you some money.

556
00:25:59,914 --> 00:26:00,794
Speaker 4: That's what I look for.

557
00:26:01,394 --> 00:26:06,434
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, that was so helpful, Thank you so much. Finally,

558
00:26:06,674 --> 00:26:10,314
Speaker 2: what is one skincare technique or ingredient that you absolutely

559
00:26:10,354 --> 00:26:12,674
Speaker 2: love and recommend to everyone, apart from what we've sort

560
00:26:12,674 --> 00:26:15,474
Speaker 2: of already spoke about. And on the flip side, what

561
00:26:15,634 --> 00:26:17,754
Speaker 2: is something that you think is absolutely not worth it

562
00:26:17,794 --> 00:26:20,034
Speaker 2: that you see everyone talking about or trending.

563
00:26:20,514 --> 00:26:22,874
Speaker 4: So there was a recent independent review of all the

564
00:26:22,954 --> 00:26:24,274
Speaker 4: studies of Bercuccio that.

565
00:26:24,274 --> 00:26:25,793
Speaker 3: Concluded that it doesn't do anything.

566
00:26:26,154 --> 00:26:28,714
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, that the studies that have been done

567
00:26:29,154 --> 00:26:31,874
Speaker 4: have been like such poor quality, like twenty four people

568
00:26:32,394 --> 00:26:35,034
Speaker 4: followed up for three weeks, Like it's just we don't

569
00:26:35,074 --> 00:26:36,794
Speaker 4: have enough evidence to recommend Bercuccio.

570
00:26:36,914 --> 00:26:38,154
Speaker 3: So I think that's quite interesting.

571
00:26:38,234 --> 00:26:41,074
Speaker 4: I probably wouldn't recommend Bercuccio just because I think it's

572
00:26:41,074 --> 00:26:43,674
Speaker 4: overhyped and way overpriced as well.

573
00:26:43,794 --> 00:26:44,834
Speaker 3: The one that I think.

574
00:26:44,834 --> 00:26:50,314
Speaker 4: Has just sort of slipped everybody's notice in Australia but

575
00:26:50,474 --> 00:26:53,714
Speaker 4: is huge in Korea is foreign Buda resource and ols,

576
00:26:53,714 --> 00:26:56,594
Speaker 4: So a lot of resource and old derivatives are on

577
00:26:56,634 --> 00:27:00,234
Speaker 4: the market at the moment for pigmentation because they are

578
00:27:00,354 --> 00:27:05,274
Speaker 4: tyrosinase inhibitors. So just a reminder, tyrosinaeses an enzyme involved

579
00:27:05,274 --> 00:27:08,674
Speaker 4: in four different steps of making inside your skin, so

580
00:27:08,714 --> 00:27:12,034
Speaker 4: it's like everybody wants the tyrosinase inhibitors. The biggest one

581
00:27:12,034 --> 00:27:14,634
Speaker 4: on the market is hydroquinone, but it's got really big problems.

582
00:27:14,714 --> 00:27:17,954
Speaker 4: It's cytotoxic, so it kills your melanocites. You actually do

583
00:27:18,074 --> 00:27:20,354
Speaker 4: need some melanin because it actually forms like an umbrella

584
00:27:20,394 --> 00:27:23,154
Speaker 4: over the nucleus of your carotnocytes and that protects it

585
00:27:23,194 --> 00:27:25,954
Speaker 4: from mutations and skin cancer. So you actually need melanine

586
00:27:25,954 --> 00:27:27,314
Speaker 4: in your skin. You don't want to get rid of

587
00:27:27,354 --> 00:27:29,074
Speaker 4: it altogether, you just want to make it a bit

588
00:27:29,114 --> 00:27:32,074
Speaker 4: more even. And the other thing about hydroquinone is we've

589
00:27:32,074 --> 00:27:34,154
Speaker 4: got some safety concerns. You can't use it for more

590
00:27:34,194 --> 00:27:36,434
Speaker 4: than three months and it's absorbed into the body, so

591
00:27:36,514 --> 00:27:38,874
Speaker 4: you can't use it in pregnancy because we don't think

592
00:27:38,874 --> 00:27:41,074
Speaker 4: it's safe, you know, if it's coursing three your bloodstrein.

593
00:27:41,594 --> 00:27:43,714
Speaker 4: And the thing that I love about foreign butdle resource

594
00:27:43,754 --> 00:27:46,514
Speaker 4: andal is in head to head trials, it's actually as

595
00:27:46,554 --> 00:27:50,554
Speaker 4: effective as hydroquinone at inhibiting tyrosinase, but without killing any

596
00:27:50,594 --> 00:27:53,994
Speaker 4: melano sites, so it's non cytotoxic. It's completely non irritating.

597
00:27:53,994 --> 00:27:56,194
Speaker 4: Because that's the other thing about hydroquinone. You often have

598
00:27:56,234 --> 00:27:58,314
Speaker 4: to pair it with like a one percent hydrocortison, which

599
00:27:58,314 --> 00:28:00,994
Speaker 4: is prob aging because it's so irritating on the skin.

600
00:28:01,434 --> 00:28:05,834
Speaker 4: Foreigmbudle resource and if you've got roseatia, whoever, everybody can

601
00:28:05,914 --> 00:28:09,874
Speaker 4: use it. But that is my favorite of the tyrosones inhibitors.

602
00:28:09,874 --> 00:28:15,354
Speaker 4: There's a lot of weak tyrosones inhibitors, arbiturn, kojic acid, licorice.

603
00:28:16,194 --> 00:28:19,234
Speaker 4: They're just not very effective and they can be irritating

604
00:28:19,234 --> 00:28:21,874
Speaker 4: as well. So you've got again a goldilocks ingredient that

605
00:28:21,914 --> 00:28:24,274
Speaker 4: no one's talking about, but huge in Korean skincare.

606
00:28:24,354 --> 00:28:26,914
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much, doctor Ginny. We're gonna hear

607
00:28:26,994 --> 00:28:29,194
Speaker 2: more from you, and we can't wait. Over on the

608
00:28:29,274 --> 00:28:30,274
Speaker 2: Unleashed Podcast.

609
00:28:30,914 --> 00:28:31,594
Speaker 3: It's so good.

610
00:28:31,754 --> 00:28:33,394
Speaker 1: I'm so excited you be buz.

611
00:28:33,394 --> 00:28:35,954
Speaker 2: If you loved this chat and you want more, make

612
00:28:35,994 --> 00:28:38,474
Speaker 2: sure you're following us on TikTok and Instagram at EU

613
00:28:38,474 --> 00:28:41,674
Speaker 2: Beauty Pod so you never ever miss a thing. And

614
00:28:41,754 --> 00:28:44,314
Speaker 2: thank you so much for listening to the formula. We'll

615
00:28:44,354 --> 00:28:57,874
Speaker 2: be back next week. Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners

616
00:28:57,874 --> 00:29:00,954
Speaker 2: of the land. We have recorded this podcast on the

617
00:29:01,034 --> 00:29:04,034
Speaker 2: Gatagol people of the e Or nation. We pay our

618
00:29:04,074 --> 00:29:07,634
Speaker 2: respects to their elders past and present and extend that

619
00:29:07,714 --> 00:29:11,034
Speaker 2: respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestride Island of Coaches