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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mer. Out loud what women are actually talking about

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Speaker 2: on Monday, the thirtieth of September.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm mea Friedman.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today, Ellen DeGeneres is back and

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Speaker 2: according to the reaction, she's either glossing over the impacts

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Speaker 2: of cancelation or she's playing the victim. We unpack what

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Speaker 2: is a dumb job? And is it the most sought

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Speaker 2: after professional situationship of our era? And can you feel it?

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Speaker 2: Female sexuality is so hot right now the books that

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Speaker 2: are proving female gas erotica is big business. But first, Mia, In.

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Speaker 1: Case you missed it, cameltoe has a new name and

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Speaker 1: it is volvercleavage. In a piece written for Fashion Journal

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Speaker 1: this week, writer hand of Cole is suggesting that we

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Speaker 1: reclaim it. She writes, when you hear the words camel

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Speaker 1: and toe, what is your response, Jesse, No, No. My

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Speaker 1: response is no, no, I'm just saying that's my response.

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Speaker 1: She goes on, do you shudder repulsively. Do you instantly

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Speaker 1: look down, stretch the length of your jumper beneath your croutch,

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Speaker 1: and think, please not me? Defined as crotch cleavage on

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Speaker 1: Urban Dictionary. Oh it's good. No, the name the cameltoe

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Speaker 1: is an unfortunate and sexist right of passage for many females.

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Speaker 1: And she goes on to argue interestingly that men are

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Speaker 1: revered for the bulge in their genes. Remember those paparazzi

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Speaker 1: shots of John hann walking down the street.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and we shame women and this is your own

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Speaker 4: internalized message.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely is so, why as women do we need to

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Speaker 1: pretend that we have a barbie lack.

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Speaker 3: Of general saying?

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Speaker 1: This situation going on down there?

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Speaker 3: Entirety of this podcast, I Know.

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Speaker 1: And Out Louder has referred to a pair of tight

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Speaker 1: leggings as punani parting pants.

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Speaker 2: Because I think, now it's seen as cool. So I

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Speaker 2: think the cameltoe or the crotch leavage or whatever we're

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Speaker 2: calling it punani patter is now to be celebrated. There

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Speaker 2: are lots of pictures of celebrities, famous transsetting celebrities showing

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Speaker 2: off jesse.

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Speaker 1: You know what a stopped clock is right twice a day. Finally,

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Speaker 1: you're in fashion with your van.

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Speaker 4: I've always been a bit ahead of the curve. And

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Speaker 4: my thoughts is like, you're weird. You have a thing

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Speaker 4: about panty lions, you have a thing about Yeah, you

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Speaker 4: just you police a lot.

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Speaker 2: I would say she polices women's under regions.

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Speaker 3: A lot, a lot.

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Speaker 4: And it's like, firstly, stop looking, and secondly, are we

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Speaker 4: shocked that Jesse has underpants on?

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Speaker 3: Are we shocked that Jesse doesn't have a mound?

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Speaker 1: Didn't have underpants on, I'd have some concerns about you

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Speaker 1: situation and changing, and also you would have a more

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Speaker 1: pronounced camel toe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I'm actually proud of my bits. I wear them proudly

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Speaker 4: and I like a pair of type.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm chastised.

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Speaker 4: Next, I'm worried about what May is going to wear tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: I am, oh, my god, You're so right, because I've

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Speaker 2: been searching for the leggings that have like an extra

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Speaker 2: lining so that you don't get it. But now that

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Speaker 2: I know that it's in fashion.

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Speaker 1: Well there'd just be period leggings. But I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: worried about are you getting a uti from the irritation.

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Speaker 4: You're not a diet and that's not a thing. That's

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Speaker 4: my thing would be. But you're going to come in

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Speaker 4: tomorrow with your camel tooe.

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Speaker 1: It's fashionable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm on board exactly.

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Speaker 5: All right, Well, let me catch up on what's been

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Speaker 5: going on with me since you saw me last. I

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Speaker 5: decided to take up gardening. I got chickens. Let me

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Speaker 5: see what else I can tell you about that it's

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Speaker 5: been going on. Oh yeah, I got kicked out of

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Speaker 5: show business.

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Speaker 4: Over the weekend, I watched the new Ellen Netflix stand

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Speaker 4: up special called for Your Approval. I absolutely loved it.

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Speaker 4: I thought it was funny and clever, but there was

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Speaker 4: one thing I felt it was missing. Let's start at

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Speaker 4: the beginning. It's twenty twenty and wheat goes viral. It reads,

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Speaker 4: right now, we all need a little kindness, you know,

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Speaker 4: like Ellen Degeneros always talks about. She's also notoriously one

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Speaker 4: of the meanest people alive. Respond to this with the

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Speaker 4: most insane stories you've heard about Ellen being mean, and

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Speaker 4: I'll match everyone with two dollars to the LA Food Bank. Now,

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Speaker 4: none of these stories were verified, but they included Ellen

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Speaker 4: asking people who were sitting in the front row of

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Speaker 4: her show to move to the back because they were

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Speaker 4: unpleasant to look at people who allegedly worked for her,

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Speaker 4: so they couldn't look her in the eye, she wouldn't

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Speaker 4: smile or say hello. But then came a series of

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Speaker 4: buddzfeed investigations. Dozens of employees, current and former, described a

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Speaker 4: toxic work environment with a culture of racism, fear, and intimidation.

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Speaker 4: There were also allegations of sexual assault perpetrated by the

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Speaker 4: head writer. Interestingly, Ellen barely features in the employee complaints,

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Speaker 4: so two things become conflated, the allegations toxic work environment

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Speaker 4: and also Ellen being mean. A few celebrities even come

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Speaker 4: out and say Ellen being mean is a true story

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Speaker 4: and any issues on set come from the top that

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Speaker 4: came from the guy who played Robert on Everybody Loves

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Speaker 4: Raymond Like people piled on. Ellen apologizes, which everyone tears

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Speaker 4: to shreds. Ratings decline by forty three percent. And then

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Speaker 4: in May twenty twenty two, after nineteen years, the Ellen

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Speaker 4: Degenerate Show is literally canceled, and that was almost two

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Speaker 4: and a half years ago. Then this weekend she drops

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Speaker 4: her Netflix special for your approval.

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Speaker 1: Here's the problem.

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Speaker 5: I'm a comedian who got a talk show, and I

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Speaker 5: ended the show every day by saying, be kind to

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Speaker 5: one another. But I became a brand, a one dimensional

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Speaker 5: character who gave stuff away and danced every day. Had

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Speaker 5: I ended my show by saying, go fuck yourselves, people

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Speaker 5: would have been pleasantly surprised to find out I'm kind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: The first I heard about it, I came across a

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Speaker 5: headline that said, how Ellen DeGeneres became the most hated

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Speaker 5: person in America. Now I didn't see the other names

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Speaker 5: on the ballot, but it's an impressive title.

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Speaker 1: It really is.

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Speaker 5: It's a horrible thing to say about somebody. And to

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Speaker 5: make it worse, there was no trophy, no awards, banquet, nothing,

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Speaker 5: just the title.

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Speaker 1: Just you know.

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Speaker 5: I made a sash at home and I wore that

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Speaker 5: around just to feel like I had something.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: It was quite a shock to me because for seventeen

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Speaker 5: years there were all these polls basically saying I was

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Speaker 5: one of the most trusted people in the country. There

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Speaker 5: was a poll that asked people which celebrity would you

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Speaker 5: most want to babysit your child, and I was the

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Speaker 5: number one answer.

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Speaker 1: You can hear, how belged she is by it like

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Speaker 1: you can hear how obviously I identify. But she's been through

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Speaker 1: all the stages of cancelation, the realizing it's impossible to

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Speaker 1: defend yourself against the things that people want to believe

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Speaker 1: about you, and if they're not true, the idea that

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Speaker 1: you apologize, but then your apology is somehow used as

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Speaker 1: a weapon to beat you with further and is ridiculed,

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Speaker 1: And then you realize that the only thing you can

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Speaker 1: do is completely remove yourself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is what she did for years and years.

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Speaker 4: And this is my worry about how the cancelation cycle,

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Speaker 4: whatever you want to call it, it's sort of like

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Speaker 4: a set in motion thing. There's a script. And I'm

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Speaker 4: not saying that Ellen didn't deserve criticism. She likely did,

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Speaker 4: but the scale of what she faced would have been

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Speaker 4: sold destroying. She refers to therapy to not knowing what

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Speaker 4: to do when her show was canceled, But ostensibly she's

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Speaker 4: standing on stage upright, telling funny jokes, and she does

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Speaker 4: seem fine, and then the narrative goes Ellen's fine. There's

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Speaker 4: no such thing as cancel culture, and that's how we

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Speaker 4: justify the vitriol we throw at public figures.

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Speaker 1: Next time, like she's got a Netflix special.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she looks happy and like she never really truly atoned.

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Speaker 4: And so we're only ever seen five percent of the story.

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Speaker 4: And my question is how do we represent the other

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Speaker 4: ninety five percent? And is that even a problem. Is

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Speaker 4: this just we see people publicly when they're doing better.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure what the problem is here, because she

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Speaker 2: has come back and she's talking about her cancelation.

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Speaker 4: She's come back and talking about her Sorry that was

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Speaker 4: a silent shrug.

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Speaker 2: The listeners couldn't hear that, But that was me saying

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Speaker 2: to Jesse, very unprofessional. I have learned that you should

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Speaker 2: use your words out loud when you're on a podcast.

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Speaker 2: She's come back and she's telling her experience of that time.

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Speaker 2: But that's fine. As far as I can understand, it's

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Speaker 2: been generally well received. There are snipy people. There are

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Speaker 2: some publications and some writers obviously for whom whatever Ellen

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Speaker 2: says does whatever, she's just done to them. And there

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Speaker 2: are some people saying, you know, she isn't apologetic enough,

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Speaker 2: she isn't this, she isn't that. But what I'm seeing

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Speaker 2: is a woman coming back and telling her story. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I'm not really sure what we're missing.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: So the thing that I think that she's missing is

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Speaker 4: that because it is a comedy special, everything needs a punchline. Right,

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Speaker 4: This isn't an interview with Barbara Walters.

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Speaker 2: It is promoting it too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, she's promoting it. And she says, I didn't

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Speaker 4: think I'd ever be able to joke about this, but

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Speaker 4: now two and a half years on, I can make

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Speaker 4: some jokes.

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Speaker 1: My worry is that we didn't see her when she

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Speaker 1: couldn't that.

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Speaker 4: What we didn't see was a woman who lost her job.

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Speaker 4: Who would have been And I think I'm personally invested

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Speaker 4: in this because I have known people who have had

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Speaker 4: the weight of public opinion turn against them, and I

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Speaker 4: know that the extent to which they're not okay can't

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Speaker 4: even be communicate agreed. And I just worry that. And

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Speaker 4: she's not the only example, as isam Sorry, did the

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Speaker 4: same thing. They disappear, they come back, they tell a

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Speaker 4: few jokes, they're smiling, and it's.

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Speaker 2: What do you want them to do? What do we

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Speaker 2: want from Ellen? Because I'd liked her last special two

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Speaker 2: Relatable She's you Know, in which she talked about the

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Speaker 2: criticism she was receiving at the time that oh, you're

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Speaker 2: too rich, you're too famous, you're not relatable anymore. It

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Speaker 2: was very funny. She said, I'd tell that to my

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Speaker 2: butler all the time, like she's great. They're taking the

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Speaker 2: piss out of herself. Yeah, she is a woman with

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Speaker 2: an extraordinary story. She has faced so many things in Hollywood.

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Speaker 2: She was originally canceled literally for who she is, for

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Speaker 2: her sexuality. Then she went on to build one of

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Speaker 2: the most successful TV shows that has ever existed, and

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Speaker 2: she hosted it for nineteen years, and it made her

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Speaker 2: unbelievably wealthy and powerful in Hollywood. Her famous friends always

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Speaker 2: stood by her. On her last show, Jennifer Aniston was there.

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Speaker 2: You know, Oprah is always around, blah blah blah. What

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Speaker 2: do you want from her? You want her to show

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Speaker 2: you her like literal scars.

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Speaker 4: No, I don't think it's that. I just think that

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Speaker 4: what we've started to do is when we do get

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Speaker 4: the apology from Ellen, which she tried to do in

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Speaker 4: the moment, we just yell louder to shut up. So

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Speaker 4: every PR crisis manager says, Hibernate, sure, shut up, turn

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Speaker 4: it all off, which is probably true, right, But I'm

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Speaker 4: just saying that the result of that is that we

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Speaker 4: can never properly convey I just don't think that essay

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Speaker 4: has yet been written, that book has yet been written

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Speaker 4: about what it is like for those two and a

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Speaker 4: half years. You just see them when they're recovered. Which

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Speaker 4: I've said before about mental illness about addiction is we

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Speaker 4: often don't talk about it in the throes of it.

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Speaker 4: It's this recovery narrative that is actually not very honest.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of reasons for that, and what you're

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Speaker 1: pointing to is the sanitization of what it feels like

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Speaker 1: to be canceled, because either you don't come out and

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Speaker 1: talk about it, or you have to come out and

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Speaker 1: talk about it in a way that's still very submissive, deferential, apologetic,

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Speaker 1: humble they or funny, like you have to make a

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Speaker 1: joke of it. And in terms of how the comedy

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Speaker 1: special has been received, I've just watched the beginning of

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Speaker 1: it and I thought it was really good too. But

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Speaker 1: the Guardian headline, for example, no apologies are not particularly funny.

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Speaker 1: Ellen DeGeneres's shameless return to stand hang on, let me

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Speaker 1: just checks notes. What did she do again? She was

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Speaker 1: rumored to have been a little bit rude to some people,

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Speaker 1: and also she oversaw a culture where bad things happen.

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Speaker 1: But you know, when you look at what men get

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Speaker 1: canceled for versus what women get canceled for, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's someone else who's in the news this week, the

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Speaker 1: ice baths guy who's wim Hoff. Wim Hoff who is

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Speaker 1: this kind of Russell Brand style guru. Russell Brand's another one.

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Speaker 1: His former wife and children have just come out and

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Speaker 1: accused him of heinous domestic violence and abuse so decades,

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Speaker 1: you know, So you look at what men get canceled for.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know if he's been canceled versus what

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Speaker 1: women get canceled for. Varieties headline. Ellen DeGeneres lets herself

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Speaker 1: off the hook in self indulgent Netflix special. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure what they want from her, Like they don't want

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Speaker 1: what you're suggesting, Jesse, Because the rules of cancelation is

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Speaker 1: that you have to apologize. Then everybody has to say

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Speaker 1: that your apology is not good enough, you're not holding

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Speaker 1: yourself to account properly, and that it's not sincere, and

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Speaker 1: that it's written by pr people. So no matter how

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Speaker 1: you apologize, it's always not good enough and it's wrong.

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Speaker 1: So then you just have to be quiet, like you

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Speaker 1: literally just have to be quiet and assume the fetal

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Speaker 1: position and until the mob gets bored of kicking you

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Speaker 1: or starts to see so much blood that they, you know,

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Speaker 1: go oh okay, we'll move on to our next target.

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Speaker 1: Because if you do show pain, it's worse.

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Speaker 3: Like at my long you're playing the victim.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, at my lowest moments, like so many people who've

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Speaker 1: been canceled, I went to a very very dark place.

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Speaker 1: You can imagine how dark the place was, right, and

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Speaker 1: part of me not laughed but thought, oh, if that happened,

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Speaker 1: the headlines would be MEA friedman still doesn't get it,

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Speaker 1: makes it all about herself. You can't show anyone your pain.

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Speaker 4: There was an element of her acknowledging it and kind

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Speaker 4: of going, oh, what's been happening? I got some chickens.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I was thrown out of Hollywood. And she

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Speaker 4: she alludes to some pain, but that's not a punchline.

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Speaker 3: It's not what she does.

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Speaker 1: I can hear in her voice. Yeah, how she has

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Speaker 1: been completely obliterated and defeated about it. Because what's really

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Speaker 1: strange is that when you defend yourself, people are like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: it must be true. And if you don't defend yourself,

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Speaker 1: people are like, oh well, it must be true. And

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Speaker 1: if your friends come out and defend you, that makes

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Speaker 1: it worse. And if they don't come out and defend you,

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Speaker 1: oh it must be true.

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Speaker 4: And the thing is if she just disappeared right, and

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Speaker 4: she never did this special, which she didn't have to do,

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Speaker 4: it's a farewell special. It's a farewell she says, like

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Speaker 4: I wanted to come out, I wanted to be beloved,

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Speaker 4: like I wanted to end on that. Of course I

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Speaker 4: care about your approvals why I'm in the industry.

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Speaker 1: But that's hiding to nothing.

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Speaker 2: She is beloved, right, The theater is full.

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Speaker 1: This is a hit.

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Speaker 2: She is rich, she is popular, she is famous, she

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Speaker 2: is beloved. But you will never ever win those people over.

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Speaker 2: That me as talking about who would gloat if something

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Speaker 2: bad happened to you, because those people have written you off,

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Speaker 2: as you always say Meah, the word cancel is so brutal.

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Speaker 2: They've literally drawn a line through her. Trying to win

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Speaker 2: them back is a hiding to nothing. Why would you try?

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Speaker 4: I'm wondering if there's a different way to tell this

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Speaker 4: story because there are arguments about whether anyone gets canceled

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Speaker 4: and then someone gets a job again or they work again.

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Speaker 4: The rule is you're not really allowed to talk about

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Speaker 4: what happened. You don't want it to come up in

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Speaker 4: the news cycle again. And with Ellen, like even if

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Speaker 4: she got to this place, I just don't think there's

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Speaker 4: any way to represent like being called the most hated

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Speaker 4: person in the country and then sitting there with a

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Speaker 4: therapist and going every publication in the world is saying

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Speaker 4: how hated I am, and not because of a professional

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Speaker 4: faux pa, but because I am a mean, bad person.

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Speaker 1: Like it's your humanity being questioned, not that perhaps you

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Speaker 1: made a mistake and you know it's all flattened. So

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Speaker 1: the iceman and Harvey Weinstein and Ellen DeGeneres are all

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Speaker 1: put in that same.

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Speaker 2: By whom bye I agree. It's very hard to have

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Speaker 2: this conversation without sounding like I'm saying, oh Mia, your pain,

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Speaker 2: Ellen's pain, Who gives a shit? That is not what

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Speaker 2: I mean at all. I think cancel culture of this

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Speaker 2: scale is ab horrent. But what I don't understand is

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Speaker 2: are you saying that everybody should be above criticism because

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Speaker 2: the thing about Ellen's story, what has happened to her

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Speaker 2: is horrendous. And I don't doubt for one second that

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Speaker 2: she suffered exactly what you're talking about in the depth

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 1: I really do.

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Speaker 2: But she is probably more well insulated against this than

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Speaker 2: you can imagine a lot of people would be. Right,

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Speaker 2: she didn't lose her livelihood, She didn't lose all her power.

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Speaker 1: She did. She was already very rich.

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Speaker 2: Worked half a billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: No, no, but that's very different. She lost whole It

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Speaker 1: is different like, yes, she's very rich, but she lost

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Speaker 1: her show. But what I mean, and that's what she

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Speaker 1: did for a job.

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Speaker 2: Her show was already on the way out, like the

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Speaker 2: daytime boom had gone. If you don't lose forty three

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Speaker 2: percent of your viewers because they've switched decided you're not

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Speaker 2: a nice person overnight, and if they do, your popularity

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Speaker 2: was built.

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Speaker 1: On a lie.

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Speaker 2: Which that's the problem with this, and that's what she's

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Speaker 2: making the joke about.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Cancelation stings the hardest if it appears to reveal a

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Speaker 2: person that you're pretending to be.

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Speaker 1: Right, she starts the show in a really funny way.

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Speaker 5: You know, I used to say that I didn't care

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Speaker 5: what other people thought of me, and I realize now

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Speaker 5: looking back, I said that at the height of my popularity. Hey,

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Speaker 5: if I look older than when you saw me last,

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Speaker 5: it's because I'm older than when you saw me last.

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Speaker 5: And also I start doing botox and filler. I used

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Speaker 5: to do botox and filler back when I didn't care

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Speaker 5: what other people thought of me.

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Speaker 2: I entirely understand how horrific this has been. But one

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Speaker 2: of the things that I struggle with here is if

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Speaker 2: we say that even the most privileged and wealthy and

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Speaker 2: you know, beloved person in the world, it should never

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Speaker 2: be revealed that there is anything dodgy about them, that

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Speaker 2: working for them is awful, that if they're one of

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Speaker 2: these awful men, we shouldn't talk about what happens to

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Speaker 2: the people in their lives because oh, people on the

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Speaker 2: internet will jump onto the note. That's where I wrestle

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Speaker 2: with this, is like, so are we saying no criticism ever?

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Speaker 1: No, No, let me finish. I'm saying I'm interested to

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Speaker 1: know what you think. Is the difference genuinely between criticism

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Speaker 1: and cancelation?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, because I hear you say, we

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Speaker 2: talk all the time about this stuff, and Mia all

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Speaker 2: say so and says getting canceled today, and that'll just

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Speaker 2: actually mean that they're getting some criticism online that will

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Speaker 2: be gone tomorrow. Ellen really was canceled. What you were

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Speaker 2: talking about about your own experience? Me like, I will

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Speaker 2: never let's forget, you know, even being close to you

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Speaker 2: while you were going through that, and that is horrific.

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Speaker 2: And I never want to sound like I'm devaluing it.

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Speaker 2: But every time somebody says something mean about somebody on

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Speaker 2: the internet, they are not being canceled. And every time

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Speaker 2: somebody points out some hypocrisy, that is not cancelation. And

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Speaker 2: anytime somebody says, hold on, why are you trying to

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Speaker 2: make me buy this thing that you're selling me?

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Speaker 3: That's fake, that's not cancelations.

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Speaker 4: I agree there's a difference between criticism and cancelation.

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Speaker 1: I think the difference is glee. I think it's glee

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Speaker 1: that characterizes a pylon and characterizes I think it's a language.

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Speaker 4: I think it's also language. I think the specificity of

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Speaker 4: a criticism because you work in a toxic workplace, and

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Speaker 4: you're someone who is paid a lot, and you've experienced

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Speaker 4: potential sexual assault or even you had a root encounter

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Speaker 4: or whatever. You have the right to tell that story.

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Speaker 4: But when you get a headline from I think it

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Speaker 4: was a New York Times saying Ellen de Generess is

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Speaker 4: most hated person in the country, I think the New

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Speaker 4: York Times needs to look in the mirror.

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Speaker 2: I agree, But I also think, and I might be

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Speaker 2: being naive, I think this was peak of this culture, right,

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Speaker 2: This was peak canceled culture time when Ellen was caught

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Speaker 2: up in that. And indeed, the story that you're telling me,

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure cancelations are as brutal or as long

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Speaker 2: lasting anymore. And I think one of the reasons is

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Speaker 2: there's a certain type of person, and funnily enough, they

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Speaker 2: all seem to be meant who actually take that cancelation,

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Speaker 2: twist it and capitalize from it. You know, as we've

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Speaker 2: discussed on this show before, Louis c k I'm sure

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Speaker 2: it hurt his feelings a great deal and he felt

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Speaker 2: awful when everyone was calling him a sexual predator on

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Speaker 2: the internet when it was revealed that he liked to

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Speaker 2: reveal himself. It was revealed that he revealed himself, which he.

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Speaker 1: Was exposing himself.

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Speaker 2: To female comics and writers who worked with him. That

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Speaker 2: has now made him a dangerous bat in the world

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Speaker 2: of a particular kind of male comic. And he sells

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Speaker 2: out arenas and people say is canceled. Like, to me,

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Speaker 2: that's not consolation.

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of you have to lose something. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: a lot of publications as well are now invested in

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Speaker 4: Ellen's downfall, and I think that they're defensive because they

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Speaker 4: know what they said two three years ago. And so

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Speaker 4: I saw this headline I think it was from Vulture

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Speaker 4: that said Ellen DeGeneres's Netflix special has seventy applause breaks.

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Speaker 4: The snark inherent in that, I was like, I watch

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Speaker 4: a lot of sound up comedy.

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Speaker 1: That's the point of THEOK.

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Speaker 3: If I sat.

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Speaker 4: Down and counted how many applause breaks were in Dave

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Speaker 4: Chappelle's stand, it would be more.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 4: There's just this snark that they can't let go of.

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Speaker 4: And in terms of you saying, Holly, you need to

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Speaker 4: have lost something, I think my point is because we

437
00:20:56,127 --> 00:20:57,927
Speaker 4: only have a look at this story in retrospect, we're

438
00:20:57,967 --> 00:21:01,327
Speaker 4: not able to truly see the things people lose. There

439
00:21:01,447 --> 00:21:03,727
Speaker 4: isn't full transparency because a second that you put your

440
00:21:03,727 --> 00:21:05,767
Speaker 4: hand up and say, hey, I actually lost X, Y,

441
00:21:05,807 --> 00:21:09,887
Speaker 4: and Z. Everyone goes, You're not the victim here, suck.

442
00:21:12,927 --> 00:21:13,767
Speaker 2: The hell out.

443
00:21:15,647 --> 00:21:17,927
Speaker 1: I just Want a Dumb Job is the headline for

444
00:21:18,047 --> 00:21:21,327
Speaker 1: a piece by Charlotte Coles that appeared on The Cut

445
00:21:21,407 --> 00:21:25,567
Speaker 1: this week, and it starts you got your dream job. Congratulations,

446
00:21:25,687 --> 00:21:29,247
Speaker 1: Except it sucks. The hours are terrible, the pay is bad,

447
00:21:29,647 --> 00:21:31,847
Speaker 1: and your shiny title doesn't make up for the stress

448
00:21:31,887 --> 00:21:34,727
Speaker 1: and drama. You secretly start to envy your friends who

449
00:21:34,767 --> 00:21:37,047
Speaker 1: you used to make fun of, the corporate sellouts who

450
00:21:37,087 --> 00:21:39,687
Speaker 1: clock in, clock out, and get paid. What does it

451
00:21:39,727 --> 00:21:42,287
Speaker 1: feel like to realize that everything you thought you wanted

452
00:21:42,287 --> 00:21:46,327
Speaker 1: in a career is actually a mirage? And she goes

453
00:21:46,327 --> 00:21:49,487
Speaker 1: on to speak with three women who talk about quitting

454
00:21:49,567 --> 00:21:53,847
Speaker 1: glamorous jobs that they fought hard for, but how they're

455
00:21:53,887 --> 00:21:57,087
Speaker 1: now much happier on the other side with different kinds

456
00:21:57,087 --> 00:22:00,087
Speaker 1: of jobs. And when I first read this headline I

457
00:22:00,167 --> 00:22:02,847
Speaker 1: Just Want a dumb job, I thought that it was

458
00:22:03,167 --> 00:22:07,367
Speaker 1: referring to menial jobs, or like jobs that were like

459
00:22:07,447 --> 00:22:11,887
Speaker 1: physical laboring jobs and that weren't like high flying, glamorous jobs.

460
00:22:12,887 --> 00:22:15,847
Speaker 1: The article itself is a little patchy, because a couple

461
00:22:15,847 --> 00:22:18,887
Speaker 1: of them just sort of have bad job experiences and

462
00:22:18,887 --> 00:22:22,087
Speaker 1: then go and get different jobs. But there's one woman

463
00:22:22,167 --> 00:22:25,447
Speaker 1: called Beth from Boston. She was previously bakery owner. She

464
00:22:25,527 --> 00:22:28,687
Speaker 1: dreamed of starting her own business, closed her business after

465
00:22:28,687 --> 00:22:32,647
Speaker 1: the pandemic obliterated it, and she's an operations manager for

466
00:22:32,687 --> 00:22:35,127
Speaker 1: a food and beverage distributor. And of her new job,

467
00:22:35,207 --> 00:22:38,127
Speaker 1: she says, it's not glamorous or creative or exciting to

468
00:22:38,167 --> 00:22:40,607
Speaker 1: tell people about it cocktail parties. But at least now

469
00:22:40,607 --> 00:22:42,767
Speaker 1: I get to go to cocktail parties because I'm not

470
00:22:42,807 --> 00:22:45,567
Speaker 1: working all the time. My income is stable, I make

471
00:22:45,607 --> 00:22:48,167
Speaker 1: a decent living, I get health insurance and paid time off,

472
00:22:48,167 --> 00:22:50,327
Speaker 1: and I work at a computer instead of being on

473
00:22:50,327 --> 00:22:52,727
Speaker 1: my feet all day. I'm not sure I'll do it forever,

474
00:22:52,767 --> 00:22:54,847
Speaker 1: but for now it's perfectly fine and I don't have

475
00:22:54,887 --> 00:22:55,687
Speaker 1: to overthink it.

476
00:22:56,247 --> 00:22:56,447
Speaker 4: Ol.

477
00:22:56,487 --> 00:22:58,647
Speaker 1: How would you define a dumb job?

478
00:22:58,967 --> 00:23:00,927
Speaker 2: First of all, we have to acknowledge that the term

479
00:23:00,927 --> 00:23:04,127
Speaker 2: itself is a little problematic. I mean, because I think

480
00:23:04,127 --> 00:23:05,527
Speaker 2: there'll be a lot of people who are like, hold on,

481
00:23:05,607 --> 00:23:07,887
Speaker 2: don't call my job dumb just because it doesn't suck

482
00:23:07,967 --> 00:23:09,127
Speaker 2: up every moment of my day.

483
00:23:09,567 --> 00:23:12,167
Speaker 1: I don't think I mean about the job itself. It's

484
00:23:12,207 --> 00:23:13,687
Speaker 1: about your approach.

485
00:23:13,767 --> 00:23:15,807
Speaker 2: Your approached I get it, I get it. It's just

486
00:23:15,847 --> 00:23:19,167
Speaker 2: that I think that term is deliberately inflammatory, which is fun.

487
00:23:19,687 --> 00:23:24,407
Speaker 2: I think it's entirely relatable because, as we've discussed before,

488
00:23:24,487 --> 00:23:27,647
Speaker 2: work culture has changed so much. You used to be

489
00:23:27,647 --> 00:23:30,927
Speaker 2: able to have a relatively high level job with a

490
00:23:30,927 --> 00:23:32,927
Speaker 2: lot of responsibility. But when you walked out of the office,

491
00:23:32,927 --> 00:23:34,807
Speaker 2: you walked out of the office. And not that long ago,

492
00:23:34,847 --> 00:23:36,967
Speaker 2: a little more than a decade ago, that used to

493
00:23:36,967 --> 00:23:39,967
Speaker 2: be a reality. If someone wanted you after out of hours,

494
00:23:40,007 --> 00:23:43,727
Speaker 2: it was like calling you God forbid, faxing you like something.

495
00:23:44,127 --> 00:23:46,647
Speaker 2: But generally work was work and home was home. We

496
00:23:46,687 --> 00:23:49,247
Speaker 2: know that's all gone, and for some people that works

497
00:23:49,247 --> 00:23:51,407
Speaker 2: fine and has offered a lot of flexibility. For a

498
00:23:51,447 --> 00:23:53,407
Speaker 2: lot of other people, it's swallowed so much of their

499
00:23:53,407 --> 00:23:56,047
Speaker 2: life that what they're really mean. I think there was

500
00:23:56,087 --> 00:23:58,887
Speaker 2: a couple of quotes in this that were very clear

501
00:23:58,927 --> 00:24:00,967
Speaker 2: about that when they said I want a dumb job.

502
00:24:01,007 --> 00:24:02,447
Speaker 2: I just want to work for someone else and not

503
00:24:02,487 --> 00:24:03,927
Speaker 2: have to be on my toes all the time and

504
00:24:03,967 --> 00:24:06,647
Speaker 2: not think so much. I'm sure that that's a very

505
00:24:06,647 --> 00:24:09,207
Speaker 2: good criteria for it. And then there's the woman who

506
00:24:09,367 --> 00:24:11,687
Speaker 2: had kids, and she said, as I've gotten older and

507
00:24:11,727 --> 00:24:14,047
Speaker 2: had kids, my professional objectives have shifted. I want to

508
00:24:14,047 --> 00:24:16,087
Speaker 2: earn as much as I can with the least amount

509
00:24:16,127 --> 00:24:19,847
Speaker 2: of soul sucking drama. And that is also something that

510
00:24:19,887 --> 00:24:21,407
Speaker 2: I think is intensely relatable.

511
00:24:21,607 --> 00:24:25,927
Speaker 4: I translated this to mean, I just want a job.

512
00:24:26,567 --> 00:24:27,127
Speaker 3: That's it.

513
00:24:27,287 --> 00:24:30,567
Speaker 4: Just take the dumb out. I just want a job.

514
00:24:30,487 --> 00:24:31,247
Speaker 1: Not a career.

515
00:24:31,607 --> 00:24:34,287
Speaker 2: No even if it's a career, but I want a job.

516
00:24:34,407 --> 00:24:36,847
Speaker 2: That is what I do for work. It's not who

517
00:24:36,927 --> 00:24:37,407
Speaker 2: I am.

518
00:24:37,927 --> 00:24:40,807
Speaker 4: It starts and it stops, and I don't go home

519
00:24:40,847 --> 00:24:43,647
Speaker 4: and as you say, ruminate over every little thing.

520
00:24:43,687 --> 00:24:44,287
Speaker 3: And I was thinking.

521
00:24:44,287 --> 00:24:47,047
Speaker 4: I had a few friends who worked the council election,

522
00:24:47,127 --> 00:24:50,207
Speaker 4: which is not a dumb job, but what they were saying,

523
00:24:50,327 --> 00:24:53,607
Speaker 4: and their teachers usually Monday to Friday, and they went

524
00:24:53,607 --> 00:24:57,767
Speaker 4: and worked this massively long day with the community and

525
00:24:58,007 --> 00:25:01,007
Speaker 4: just could not stop raving about how much they loved it.

526
00:25:01,407 --> 00:25:05,087
Speaker 4: And I think it was mindful. It was straightforward. They

527
00:25:05,127 --> 00:25:07,727
Speaker 4: knew that when it was finished, it was finished, which

528
00:25:07,767 --> 00:25:10,167
Speaker 4: is the opposite to what teach fields what they have

529
00:25:10,327 --> 00:25:12,807
Speaker 4: to do. So people would come and then they would

530
00:25:12,807 --> 00:25:15,367
Speaker 4: have a quick conversation with them, give them a form

531
00:25:15,647 --> 00:25:18,727
Speaker 4: answer some pretty straightforward questions if they had any, point

532
00:25:18,767 --> 00:25:22,287
Speaker 4: them to a booth like amazing, and they just went,

533
00:25:22,407 --> 00:25:25,927
Speaker 4: I am so probably burnt out by what I'm doing

534
00:25:26,287 --> 00:25:29,167
Speaker 4: Monday to Friday. And it also made me think about

535
00:25:29,327 --> 00:25:31,007
Speaker 4: a bit of a mantra I think I've talked about

536
00:25:31,007 --> 00:25:33,487
Speaker 4: it on the show before that I've had in regards

537
00:25:33,567 --> 00:25:38,847
Speaker 4: to work, which is maximum engagement, minimum emotional investment. And

538
00:25:38,887 --> 00:25:41,287
Speaker 4: what that means is that you're super engaged when you're there,

539
00:25:41,607 --> 00:25:44,127
Speaker 4: like as engaged as you possibly can be, but the

540
00:25:44,167 --> 00:25:48,687
Speaker 4: emotional thing just like, try and leave that at.

541
00:25:48,607 --> 00:25:50,767
Speaker 1: The don't start your own business exactly.

542
00:25:50,967 --> 00:25:53,167
Speaker 3: And that's why I think that sounds like a terrible agua.

543
00:25:53,287 --> 00:25:57,087
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm exhausted because I've had that for seventeen years.

544
00:25:57,447 --> 00:25:59,767
Speaker 1: That's one type of person who can be really burnt

545
00:25:59,767 --> 00:26:02,207
Speaker 1: out by their job. But you don't have to long

546
00:26:02,407 --> 00:26:06,367
Speaker 1: for a dumb job or a simpler job just if

547
00:26:06,367 --> 00:26:09,367
Speaker 1: you have your own business. I think for me, a

548
00:26:09,447 --> 00:26:12,687
Speaker 1: dumb job is about a job I don't have to

549
00:26:12,767 --> 00:26:16,367
Speaker 1: engage with when it's not working hours, and that I

550
00:26:16,407 --> 00:26:19,087
Speaker 1: don't have to think about. I don't have to angst about.

551
00:26:19,447 --> 00:26:21,247
Speaker 1: We asked out loud As what they thought we had

552
00:26:21,247 --> 00:26:24,447
Speaker 1: some great examples. We asked them if they could relate

553
00:26:24,527 --> 00:26:26,767
Speaker 1: or if they've ever had this idea of a dumb job.

554
00:26:27,207 --> 00:26:28,967
Speaker 1: And Petra said, I had a job when I was

555
00:26:28,967 --> 00:26:32,687
Speaker 1: seventeen transferring seedlings into punnets. Nothing to think about during

556
00:26:32,767 --> 00:26:35,047
Speaker 1: or after the job apart from not squashing the plants.

557
00:26:35,087 --> 00:26:36,647
Speaker 1: And I was alone, so I did not have to

558
00:26:36,687 --> 00:26:40,727
Speaker 1: talk to anyone. It was blissful. Emma said, the downside

559
00:26:40,767 --> 00:26:43,327
Speaker 1: to knowledge work we are not well designed to execute

560
00:26:43,367 --> 00:26:46,727
Speaker 1: cognitively demanding tasks for eight plus hours a day. I

561
00:26:46,887 --> 00:26:48,047
Speaker 1: was meant to pick berries.

562
00:26:48,447 --> 00:26:49,807
Speaker 3: Oh so true.

563
00:26:49,967 --> 00:26:54,327
Speaker 1: Interestingly, it's very easy to idealize someone else's job, right.

564
00:26:54,367 --> 00:26:57,327
Speaker 1: It's not to say that a dumb in quote Mark's

565
00:26:57,407 --> 00:27:00,247
Speaker 1: job is easy. It's not about how much it pays,

566
00:27:00,527 --> 00:27:02,687
Speaker 1: because it could be physically exhausting. There was a really

567
00:27:02,727 --> 00:27:05,687
Speaker 1: interesting quote in out Louders from Nicole. She said, people

568
00:27:05,687 --> 00:27:08,047
Speaker 1: think my job as a kindergarten teacher is easy, but

569
00:27:08,087 --> 00:27:11,447
Speaker 1: the mental and emotional I don't, as well as how

570
00:27:11,527 --> 00:27:13,767
Speaker 1: physically demanding it is to work with three to five

571
00:27:13,807 --> 00:27:15,967
Speaker 1: year old children. I burn out pretty much every year

572
00:27:16,167 --> 00:27:18,007
Speaker 1: I used to work in a bakery. Standing on my

573
00:27:18,047 --> 00:27:20,287
Speaker 1: feet all day was physically exhausting. It didn't have the

574
00:27:20,327 --> 00:27:22,807
Speaker 1: emotional load of my job now, but it is just

575
00:27:22,847 --> 00:27:25,967
Speaker 1: as tiring daily. Being a mum can be physically exhausting,

576
00:27:26,007 --> 00:27:28,407
Speaker 1: but you also have a huge mental and emotional load

577
00:27:28,447 --> 00:27:31,007
Speaker 1: to carry. And she says, every job, in its own

578
00:27:31,007 --> 00:27:32,367
Speaker 1: way takes its toll on you.

579
00:27:32,287 --> 00:27:33,087
Speaker 2: One hundred percent.

580
00:27:33,167 --> 00:27:33,607
Speaker 1: It does.

581
00:27:33,887 --> 00:27:36,567
Speaker 2: I think the thing that's interesting is that with this

582
00:27:36,607 --> 00:27:39,687
Speaker 2: sort of pushback against hustle culture and the fact that

583
00:27:39,687 --> 00:27:42,207
Speaker 2: we've now had nearly a generation of seeing this new

584
00:27:42,327 --> 00:27:44,487
Speaker 2: kind of work that never leaves you alone because you're

585
00:27:44,487 --> 00:27:47,567
Speaker 2: constantly contactable, is lots of studies are shown that young

586
00:27:47,567 --> 00:27:49,527
Speaker 2: people don't want to rise the ranks for that reason.

587
00:27:49,807 --> 00:27:52,127
Speaker 2: The great embossing I think they're calling it, which is

588
00:27:52,167 --> 00:27:55,647
Speaker 2: that Generation Z and younger millennials are saying I don't

589
00:27:55,687 --> 00:27:57,967
Speaker 2: want a promotion, I don't want to manage people. And

590
00:27:58,007 --> 00:28:01,087
Speaker 2: there's a real dearth of middle managers because they're like

591
00:28:01,167 --> 00:28:03,607
Speaker 2: that just looks like more stress, more drama for not

592
00:28:03,807 --> 00:28:05,287
Speaker 2: really that much more money.

593
00:28:05,567 --> 00:28:06,247
Speaker 1: And there used to be.

594
00:28:06,287 --> 00:28:08,087
Speaker 2: A lot of status in that, but now there's a

595
00:28:08,087 --> 00:28:11,047
Speaker 2: lot more status and having a job with boundaries.

596
00:28:11,207 --> 00:28:13,407
Speaker 1: It's work to live, not live to work.

597
00:28:13,847 --> 00:28:16,527
Speaker 4: There was a great article in the Sydney Morning Herald

598
00:28:16,727 --> 00:28:20,727
Speaker 4: recently by Shadesai. She says that before you think about quitting,

599
00:28:21,327 --> 00:28:24,527
Speaker 4: consider adopting this eighty five percent rule. So this is

600
00:28:24,567 --> 00:28:27,647
Speaker 4: basically how to make whatever job you're doing into a

601
00:28:27,687 --> 00:28:31,127
Speaker 4: simpler job. And she says that basically, never work above

602
00:28:31,167 --> 00:28:33,927
Speaker 4: eighty five percent. If your is not going to like this, no,

603
00:28:34,527 --> 00:28:37,687
Speaker 4: it's actually smart. Actually she doesn't say never. What she

604
00:28:37,807 --> 00:28:40,567
Speaker 4: says is your default should be eighty five so that

605
00:28:40,607 --> 00:28:42,487
Speaker 4: you've got more to give when it needs it.

606
00:28:42,727 --> 00:28:44,327
Speaker 3: If you're burnt out because you're a hundred all.

607
00:28:44,287 --> 00:28:46,007
Speaker 1: The time, did you get paid eighty five percent of

608
00:28:46,007 --> 00:28:46,447
Speaker 1: your Oh.

609
00:28:46,287 --> 00:28:47,767
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, don't.

610
00:28:48,087 --> 00:28:51,527
Speaker 4: I don't think jobs are asking for one hundred percent

611
00:28:51,687 --> 00:28:52,847
Speaker 4: of us percent.

612
00:28:53,167 --> 00:28:54,887
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that I learned a

613
00:28:54,927 --> 00:28:57,367
Speaker 1: long time ago, is that no one is giving one

614
00:28:57,447 --> 00:28:59,487
Speaker 1: hundred percent all of the time. It's just not possible. No.

615
00:28:59,647 --> 00:29:01,167
Speaker 1: So you will always if you have a group of

616
00:29:01,207 --> 00:29:04,087
Speaker 1: people who you manage or who work for you, there

617
00:29:04,087 --> 00:29:05,967
Speaker 1: will always be some of them who are working at

618
00:29:05,967 --> 00:29:08,247
Speaker 1: fifty percent, some of them who might be working at

619
00:29:08,287 --> 00:29:11,007
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. Most people will be working it around

620
00:29:11,007 --> 00:29:13,407
Speaker 1: eighty five or eighty percent like that would be great.

621
00:29:13,727 --> 00:29:16,247
Speaker 4: It's good because you know what you get rewarded with

622
00:29:16,327 --> 00:29:19,007
Speaker 4: when you're working at one hundred more work probably and

623
00:29:19,047 --> 00:29:20,007
Speaker 4: not always more pay.

624
00:29:20,727 --> 00:29:23,767
Speaker 1: Out Louders continue the conversation about the idea of dumb

625
00:29:23,887 --> 00:29:26,807
Speaker 1: jobs and what one means to you, either in the

626
00:29:26,807 --> 00:29:29,687
Speaker 1: outladders group or on our socials wherever you find.

627
00:29:29,527 --> 00:29:35,887
Speaker 2: Us one unlimited out Loud access. We drop episodes every

628
00:29:35,927 --> 00:29:40,287
Speaker 2: Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the

629
00:29:40,287 --> 00:29:41,887
Speaker 2: link at the show notes to get us in your

630
00:29:41,887 --> 00:29:45,087
Speaker 2: ears five days a week. And a huge thank you

631
00:29:45,207 --> 00:29:53,127
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers. Look, I don't want to

632
00:29:53,127 --> 00:29:55,527
Speaker 2: get too personal with you on a Monday afternoon, but

633
00:29:55,767 --> 00:29:59,207
Speaker 2: when I was a teen ish person, I stumbled across

634
00:29:59,247 --> 00:30:02,047
Speaker 2: a sex book that blew my tiny little mind.

635
00:30:02,087 --> 00:30:05,127
Speaker 4: Didn't we all halleweenda in our house. I think that

636
00:30:05,167 --> 00:30:06,447
Speaker 4: it wasn't an accident that they.

637
00:30:06,287 --> 00:30:08,487
Speaker 1: Were left was the one that we stumbled across.

638
00:30:08,607 --> 00:30:11,327
Speaker 2: It was called Secret Garden. It was by Nancy Friday,

639
00:30:11,327 --> 00:30:14,087
Speaker 2: who is a feminist writer, and it was published way

640
00:30:14,167 --> 00:30:16,967
Speaker 2: back in nineteen seventy three. And my friend's mum had

641
00:30:17,007 --> 00:30:19,807
Speaker 2: it under her bed. How did we find it not clear,

642
00:30:19,847 --> 00:30:22,007
Speaker 2: I don't remember. Did we hesitate to read it, not

643
00:30:22,167 --> 00:30:26,647
Speaker 2: even for a second. The book's tagline was simply Women's

644
00:30:26,647 --> 00:30:29,487
Speaker 2: Sexual Fantasies, and it did exactly what it said on

645
00:30:29,527 --> 00:30:32,447
Speaker 2: the tin. It was a collection of anonymous or maybe

646
00:30:32,447 --> 00:30:35,127
Speaker 2: fake names, I don't really remember, but stories written by

647
00:30:35,167 --> 00:30:38,927
Speaker 2: women about what they fantasized about, and it absolutely flawed.

648
00:30:38,967 --> 00:30:41,727
Speaker 2: Me and my friend we were shocked. We thought it

649
00:30:41,767 --> 00:30:44,487
Speaker 2: was hilarious, and I guess on some level we must

650
00:30:44,487 --> 00:30:47,527
Speaker 2: have found it timilating, although I don't really remember that

651
00:30:48,087 --> 00:30:51,367
Speaker 2: at the time, but I'm sure it changed me on

652
00:30:51,407 --> 00:30:55,167
Speaker 2: some profound level. What was the most surprising about it,

653
00:30:55,607 --> 00:30:57,887
Speaker 2: and even now when I think about it, was how

654
00:30:57,887 --> 00:31:00,647
Speaker 2: honest it was. There were what we would now term

655
00:31:00,687 --> 00:31:05,047
Speaker 2: inappropriate fantasies, for sure, but every word in there was

656
00:31:05,087 --> 00:31:08,007
Speaker 2: from the female imagination. How can a fantasy be in

657
00:31:08,047 --> 00:31:12,847
Speaker 2: appropriate sectly well, because imposes things that are illegal, slash violent,

658
00:31:13,167 --> 00:31:16,047
Speaker 2: slash ah, you know what I mean, things that you

659
00:31:16,127 --> 00:31:18,607
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't want to happen to you in real life.

660
00:31:18,487 --> 00:31:21,167
Speaker 1: Which is kind of the point of the fantasy. That

661
00:31:21,207 --> 00:31:23,367
Speaker 1: it's days in fantasy form, but.

662
00:31:23,367 --> 00:31:26,327
Speaker 2: It was all from the female lens, and I'm sure

663
00:31:26,447 --> 00:31:28,767
Speaker 2: that had an impact on me, and not only me,

664
00:31:28,967 --> 00:31:31,247
Speaker 2: it seems because right now one of the best selling

665
00:31:31,247 --> 00:31:34,727
Speaker 2: books of the moment is another collection of female fantasies

666
00:31:34,727 --> 00:31:37,767
Speaker 2: compound by Gillian Anderson, who we all know from the

667
00:31:37,927 --> 00:31:40,327
Speaker 2: X Files from Sex Education from the Fall. She is

668
00:31:40,367 --> 00:31:44,927
Speaker 2: a very sexy woman and she has also very accomplished

669
00:31:44,967 --> 00:31:47,687
Speaker 2: don't objectify her, but I mean this is relevant to

670
00:31:47,727 --> 00:31:50,927
Speaker 2: this part of the story. She's written a book called

671
00:31:50,967 --> 00:31:52,647
Speaker 2: want Well. She hasn't written it, she's compiled it, and

672
00:31:52,687 --> 00:31:54,407
Speaker 2: it's the same thing. So back in the day, Nancy

673
00:31:54,407 --> 00:31:56,647
Speaker 2: Friday are actual literally put an ad in the newspaper

674
00:31:57,127 --> 00:31:59,527
Speaker 2: that said send me your sexual fantasies, and women wrote

675
00:31:59,527 --> 00:32:01,127
Speaker 2: her letters and she put them in the book in

676
00:32:01,207 --> 00:32:04,567
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three. In this one, Anderson's publisher created a

677
00:32:04,607 --> 00:32:07,887
Speaker 2: portal online so that they could reach a diverse global

678
00:32:07,927 --> 00:32:11,247
Speaker 2: audience and received enough story is to fill a thousand pages.

679
00:32:11,607 --> 00:32:15,247
Speaker 2: They're separated out into themes like kink, strangers, parent, submission,

680
00:32:15,527 --> 00:32:18,887
Speaker 2: those kind of things women are also obsessing at the moment.

681
00:32:19,007 --> 00:32:22,567
Speaker 2: Over All fours, Miranda July's Hot and Hot Award nominated

682
00:32:22,567 --> 00:32:25,527
Speaker 2: book about a midlife protagonist who describes her sexuality as

683
00:32:25,567 --> 00:32:31,127
Speaker 2: more mind fucker than body fucker, and the unbelievable enormous

684
00:32:31,127 --> 00:32:34,087
Speaker 2: success among women of books like Sarah j. Mass Is

685
00:32:34,087 --> 00:32:37,607
Speaker 2: a Courtland of Thorn's and Roses series, which are a

686
00:32:37,767 --> 00:32:41,087
Speaker 2: very smart yes, which are described as an erotic adult

687
00:32:41,167 --> 00:32:44,287
Speaker 2: fantasy series. All of this points to the fact that

688
00:32:44,367 --> 00:32:46,727
Speaker 2: right now we're living in a big moment of female

689
00:32:46,767 --> 00:32:50,167
Speaker 2: erotica and everybody wants a piece of it. Jesse, excuse

690
00:32:50,207 --> 00:32:52,887
Speaker 2: the pun, but why are our inner sex lives so

691
00:32:53,087 --> 00:32:54,207
Speaker 2: hot right now?

692
00:32:54,527 --> 00:32:54,887
Speaker 3: Well?

693
00:32:55,007 --> 00:32:57,847
Speaker 4: I was listening to an interview over the weekend between

694
00:32:57,967 --> 00:33:01,527
Speaker 4: Esther Perel and Miranda July. I've just finished reading All Fours,

695
00:33:01,647 --> 00:33:07,767
Speaker 4: which was outstanding, weird, but outstanding, and Parrell pointed to

696
00:33:08,367 --> 00:33:12,207
Speaker 4: the distinction twain the erotic and sexuality, and I had

697
00:33:12,247 --> 00:33:13,127
Speaker 4: never heard that before.

698
00:33:13,287 --> 00:33:18,927
Speaker 6: I often think that modernity has reduced eroticism to sex,

699
00:33:20,287 --> 00:33:24,607
Speaker 6: and that in the mystical sense of the word, eroticism

700
00:33:24,967 --> 00:33:28,767
Speaker 6: has been about a liveness. It involves sexuality, but it

701
00:33:28,847 --> 00:33:33,007
Speaker 6: is not the most central elements. Eroticism is what gives sexuality,

702
00:33:33,087 --> 00:33:37,167
Speaker 6: meaning you can do sex and feel very little and

703
00:33:37,287 --> 00:33:41,807
Speaker 6: make a point of saying sexuality and eroticism two different things.

704
00:33:42,247 --> 00:33:46,567
Speaker 6: Sexuality is the pivot, it's the basic instinct, but eroticism

705
00:33:46,727 --> 00:33:49,567
Speaker 6: is sexuality transformed by the human imagination.

706
00:33:50,007 --> 00:33:51,487
Speaker 4: What I took from it is that we live in

707
00:33:51,487 --> 00:33:55,607
Speaker 4: this hypersexualized world where there's you know, women's bodies being

708
00:33:55,767 --> 00:33:58,687
Speaker 4: objectified all the time, and people are in bikinis, and

709
00:33:58,727 --> 00:34:02,767
Speaker 4: there's flesh, and there's sex, says porn, but it's devoid

710
00:34:02,887 --> 00:34:07,727
Speaker 4: of the erotic. And therefore a lot of what we

711
00:34:07,887 --> 00:34:13,207
Speaker 4: say pan is to men and their desires.

712
00:34:12,167 --> 00:34:15,367
Speaker 1: Like close ups of holess going in and out of them.

713
00:34:15,607 --> 00:34:18,647
Speaker 3: Not how for most women, their sexuality.

714
00:34:18,167 --> 00:34:21,487
Speaker 2: Is erotic and erotica. Is that a specific thing?

715
00:34:21,647 --> 00:34:25,047
Speaker 4: Yes, So what it said was that the erotic can

716
00:34:25,127 --> 00:34:29,407
Speaker 4: happen without sex or sexuality, and sexuality or sex can

717
00:34:29,447 --> 00:34:32,087
Speaker 4: happen as every woman and I'm sure every man knows

718
00:34:32,407 --> 00:34:36,767
Speaker 4: with nothing mildly erotic about it, Isn't it true? And

719
00:34:36,847 --> 00:34:43,287
Speaker 4: so the erotic you can have incredibly erotic experiences with

720
00:34:43,287 --> 00:34:46,367
Speaker 4: people you don't even touch, right that it's something that

721
00:34:46,407 --> 00:34:48,607
Speaker 4: goes on in your head. And the erotic is also

722
00:34:48,687 --> 00:34:52,607
Speaker 4: seen as life. It's life giving, and so.

723
00:34:52,847 --> 00:34:56,207
Speaker 1: It's a life force describes it as.

724
00:34:56,127 --> 00:35:00,047
Speaker 4: It's about energy, and I think that there is this shift.

725
00:35:00,047 --> 00:35:01,967
Speaker 4: It was funny I was speaking with friends recently who

726
00:35:01,967 --> 00:35:04,567
Speaker 4: are having so much sex because they're reading this Fourth

727
00:35:04,567 --> 00:35:08,967
Speaker 4: Wing thing, which I think, I don't know. I think

728
00:35:08,967 --> 00:35:11,487
Speaker 4: they might dragons, and they're all having so much sex,

729
00:35:11,567 --> 00:35:14,567
Speaker 4: and they were like, what I need is the two

730
00:35:14,687 --> 00:35:19,927
Speaker 4: hundred pages before the thing I need to have that needs. Yeah,

731
00:35:21,167 --> 00:35:24,847
Speaker 4: And I don't want the grabs and the little bits.

732
00:35:25,087 --> 00:35:29,127
Speaker 4: I need the whole story. And I thought as well

733
00:35:29,207 --> 00:35:33,767
Speaker 4: that this moment historically is very significant. So Nancy Friday's

734
00:35:33,927 --> 00:35:37,247
Speaker 4: My Secret Garden that came out the year row Verse

735
00:35:37,287 --> 00:35:41,407
Speaker 4: Wade was decided. Now this book has come out a

736
00:35:41,447 --> 00:35:45,887
Speaker 4: few years after it's been overturned, and for women, historically,

737
00:35:46,007 --> 00:35:51,207
Speaker 4: sex has been used as punishment, as something synonymous with responsibility,

738
00:35:51,327 --> 00:35:54,807
Speaker 4: as something synonymous with consequence and shame in a way

739
00:35:54,807 --> 00:35:57,447
Speaker 4: that it isn't for men. And I think these stories

740
00:35:57,447 --> 00:36:00,447
Speaker 4: are more important than ever before because even the title

741
00:36:00,647 --> 00:36:03,127
Speaker 4: is want, And the reason why our desires are so

742
00:36:03,207 --> 00:36:07,487
Speaker 4: transgressive is because in life women often say what they

743
00:36:07,527 --> 00:36:10,487
Speaker 4: want and they're not listened to, or they're shamed, or

744
00:36:10,487 --> 00:36:14,407
Speaker 4: they're ignored, and that's why in most of these Anderson

745
00:36:14,407 --> 00:36:16,727
Speaker 4: has talked about it, and she's like, most of these

746
00:36:16,767 --> 00:36:19,047
Speaker 4: women have never told their partners these fantasies because they're

747
00:36:19,047 --> 00:36:21,567
Speaker 4: too ashamed and they think, well, they wouldn't want to

748
00:36:21,607 --> 00:36:25,207
Speaker 4: listen anyway. So there is something so feminist and empowering

749
00:36:25,447 --> 00:36:28,527
Speaker 4: about actually just saying what you want or what you

750
00:36:28,647 --> 00:36:29,407
Speaker 4: fantasize about.

751
00:36:29,647 --> 00:36:32,607
Speaker 1: I don't know if you need to say it. Sometimes

752
00:36:32,647 --> 00:36:35,567
Speaker 1: what makes it erotic is that you don't say it,

753
00:36:35,607 --> 00:36:38,447
Speaker 1: and that it lives in your imagination, you know, and

754
00:36:38,447 --> 00:36:41,127
Speaker 1: that it's yours. Yeah, Like, we recently did a survey

755
00:36:41,167 --> 00:36:44,207
Speaker 1: that showed forty nine percent of Australian women aren't happy

756
00:36:44,247 --> 00:36:46,847
Speaker 1: with their sex life, which is a lot.

757
00:36:47,007 --> 00:36:49,687
Speaker 2: There's a staggering number, but I wasn't surprised.

758
00:36:49,167 --> 00:36:52,207
Speaker 1: So I wasn't surprised either. It's interesting you talk about

759
00:36:52,207 --> 00:36:56,607
Speaker 1: the secret garden. My childhood was formed by the Height Report,

760
00:36:56,887 --> 00:37:00,087
Speaker 1: which came out in nineteen seventy six by women called

761
00:37:00,327 --> 00:37:04,407
Speaker 1: Share Height, and it was again questionnaires of women. They're

762
00:37:04,407 --> 00:37:08,367
Speaker 1: about three thousand women responded aged fourteen to seventy eight,

763
00:37:09,007 --> 00:37:12,047
Speaker 1: and there was some statistical analysis in there as well,

764
00:37:12,047 --> 00:37:15,527
Speaker 1: but most of The book was women just telling stories, opinions,

765
00:37:15,527 --> 00:37:18,767
Speaker 1: and complaints relating to their sex lives, and I remember

766
00:37:18,967 --> 00:37:20,607
Speaker 1: my mum had it. It's so funny when I think

767
00:37:20,647 --> 00:37:22,447
Speaker 1: about the books that I discovered as a kid and

768
00:37:23,007 --> 00:37:26,607
Speaker 1: the impact they had on me understanding about sex and sexuality.

769
00:37:27,207 --> 00:37:30,207
Speaker 1: My mum had the Height Report, my dad had Penthouse,

770
00:37:30,487 --> 00:37:33,887
Speaker 1: and I found the Forum Letters really interesting. And my brother,

771
00:37:33,967 --> 00:37:37,607
Speaker 1: my teenage brother, had the Story of Oh, which was

772
00:37:37,687 --> 00:37:42,527
Speaker 1: like a French erotic novel. And interestingly, this is all

773
00:37:42,527 --> 00:37:45,367
Speaker 1: before porn. This is so different to our children because

774
00:37:45,727 --> 00:37:49,647
Speaker 1: their first experiences of what sex is will not be

775
00:37:49,727 --> 00:37:50,407
Speaker 1: the written word.

776
00:37:50,607 --> 00:37:52,527
Speaker 3: They don't be have to look under the bed.

777
00:37:52,487 --> 00:37:56,247
Speaker 1: Close ups of bang bang bang and things going into

778
00:37:56,287 --> 00:37:58,607
Speaker 1: places that they didn't even know they could go into,

779
00:37:59,967 --> 00:38:03,087
Speaker 1: and so there is no erotic like for this generation

780
00:38:03,327 --> 00:38:08,247
Speaker 1: coming up. I wonder how eroticism plays out to them, because,

781
00:38:08,367 --> 00:38:10,927
Speaker 1: particularly for girl, most of the porn that they will

782
00:38:11,087 --> 00:38:14,127
Speaker 1: be exposed to, will be through a male lens into

783
00:38:14,127 --> 00:38:16,647
Speaker 1: panda to men like those close ups of orifices and.

784
00:38:16,567 --> 00:38:18,527
Speaker 3: Stuff, and they're the object, not exactly.

785
00:38:18,567 --> 00:38:23,567
Speaker 1: That's why often straight women like lesbian porn because the

786
00:38:23,647 --> 00:38:26,607
Speaker 1: woman is at the center. The female experience is at

787
00:38:26,647 --> 00:38:29,527
Speaker 1: the center, and so yeah, it's interesting.

788
00:38:29,567 --> 00:38:32,807
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is, though, is that those teenagers are

789
00:38:32,847 --> 00:38:36,487
Speaker 2: reading all those TikTok books. Book talk any publisher will

790
00:38:36,487 --> 00:38:40,447
Speaker 2: tell you is basically about smart right, so not just

791
00:38:40,487 --> 00:38:43,087
Speaker 2: the fairy stuff, but all the sort of I can't

792
00:38:43,087 --> 00:38:45,647
Speaker 2: remember what they're all called. Now, there's like the Icebreaker,

793
00:38:45,887 --> 00:38:48,007
Speaker 2: and that all these books that are selling lots and

794
00:38:48,047 --> 00:38:49,647
Speaker 2: lots to young kids are all rude.

795
00:38:49,647 --> 00:38:52,287
Speaker 1: It doesn't Colleen Hoover have a lot of sex in it.

796
00:38:52,647 --> 00:38:54,527
Speaker 2: I think she's a little bit, Yeah, but she's more

797
00:38:54,527 --> 00:38:59,447
Speaker 2: trauma but like so dirty inverted commas books are still

798
00:38:59,887 --> 00:39:04,047
Speaker 2: speaking a lot to young girls. And I think it's

799
00:39:04,087 --> 00:39:07,887
Speaker 2: interesting because we also have much more of a societal

800
00:39:07,967 --> 00:39:11,807
Speaker 2: focus now on fantasy, masturbation, sex toys than we certainly

801
00:39:11,807 --> 00:39:14,487
Speaker 2: did an hour when we were young. And I wonder

802
00:39:14,527 --> 00:39:16,807
Speaker 2: if one of the reasons why we're sort of having

803
00:39:16,847 --> 00:39:19,807
Speaker 2: a real moment because this sexual fantasy moment is, you know,

804
00:39:19,887 --> 00:39:22,207
Speaker 2: Miranda July and stuff is about midlife women, and you

805
00:39:22,207 --> 00:39:24,807
Speaker 2: could argue that Gillian Anderson's book is too, but it's

806
00:39:24,927 --> 00:39:26,887
Speaker 2: kind of broader than that. When you do bring in

807
00:39:26,967 --> 00:39:28,727
Speaker 2: all those books that are doing really well that are

808
00:39:28,767 --> 00:39:32,087
Speaker 2: basically just smart to give it this nice title. And

809
00:39:32,167 --> 00:39:34,047
Speaker 2: I wonder if it's because we've had.

810
00:39:33,927 --> 00:39:35,327
Speaker 1: Such a negative word erodica.

811
00:39:35,407 --> 00:39:36,487
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a bad word.

812
00:39:36,487 --> 00:39:38,287
Speaker 1: I think it's a sexy word. You're bringing it back

813
00:39:38,327 --> 00:39:38,927
Speaker 1: like vulvcle.

814
00:39:39,127 --> 00:39:41,807
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like women and men, we keep reading in

815
00:39:41,847 --> 00:39:44,727
Speaker 2: lots of ways, have never been further apart, Like lots

816
00:39:44,727 --> 00:39:46,887
Speaker 2: of culture, studies are showing that young people are having

817
00:39:46,967 --> 00:39:49,647
Speaker 2: less actual sex. All the studies show us that too,

818
00:39:50,007 --> 00:39:52,487
Speaker 2: despite it being easier to get than ever, probably because

819
00:39:52,527 --> 00:39:54,807
Speaker 2: you can dial it up quicker than a pizza. It's

820
00:39:54,847 --> 00:39:57,047
Speaker 2: because of the nature of all the porn that feels

821
00:39:57,047 --> 00:40:00,527
Speaker 2: aggressive and scary, and that's giving you know, young men

822
00:40:00,607 --> 00:40:03,927
Speaker 2: maybe really intimidating ideas about sex. So you can entirely

823
00:40:04,007 --> 00:40:08,127
Speaker 2: understand why fantasy, whatever your age, is safe. Like fantasy,

824
00:40:08,167 --> 00:40:11,647
Speaker 2: even if your fantasies are safe. Fantasies don't disappoint you.

825
00:40:12,087 --> 00:40:15,007
Speaker 2: They're selfish, they're about you. They don't make you do

826
00:40:15,047 --> 00:40:16,607
Speaker 2: things you don't want to do unless that's what you

827
00:40:16,647 --> 00:40:19,167
Speaker 2: want to do, and they don't scare you, and they

828
00:40:19,167 --> 00:40:22,407
Speaker 2: don't just leave nothing in it for you. So fantasy, in.

829
00:40:22,327 --> 00:40:24,447
Speaker 1: A way, it doesn't cost you anything is.

830
00:40:24,447 --> 00:40:29,087
Speaker 2: Probably having a really big moment because the real sex

831
00:40:29,287 --> 00:40:32,087
Speaker 2: is getting more disappointing. Like when I say real sex,

832
00:40:32,127 --> 00:40:36,527
Speaker 2: I mean of the traditional kind. We control fancy, like

833
00:40:36,567 --> 00:40:39,607
Speaker 2: women of all ages, they control their fancy, and that's

834
00:40:39,687 --> 00:40:40,287
Speaker 2: very appealing.

835
00:40:40,327 --> 00:40:42,447
Speaker 1: I think when I was in magazines, I remember in

836
00:40:42,487 --> 00:40:44,967
Speaker 1: the nineties, I was a big boom in erotic fiction.

837
00:40:45,207 --> 00:40:48,927
Speaker 1: This is pre fifty shades, and that was massive, and

838
00:40:48,967 --> 00:40:52,087
Speaker 1: that was just around the time when safe sex and

839
00:40:52,127 --> 00:40:55,447
Speaker 1: the AIDS epidemic was really scaring people about sex. And

840
00:40:55,487 --> 00:40:58,247
Speaker 1: it's no accident then as well, that the rise in

841
00:40:58,287 --> 00:41:02,767
Speaker 1: erotica for women came at a time when sex was

842
00:41:02,807 --> 00:41:07,767
Speaker 1: potentially life threatening and so it's interesting that that's happening again.

843
00:41:07,927 --> 00:41:10,407
Speaker 1: We announced it our upfront recently when we were going

844
00:41:10,407 --> 00:41:12,247
Speaker 1: around and discussing all the things we're going to do

845
00:41:13,047 --> 00:41:17,007
Speaker 1: Next year at Momamea, we are launching the first Australian

846
00:41:17,367 --> 00:41:22,327
Speaker 1: audio erotica podcast, so butter Central Stories, So it's like

847
00:41:22,407 --> 00:41:24,487
Speaker 1: audio erotica essentially, is.

848
00:41:24,447 --> 00:41:25,807
Speaker 3: It women's fantasies all right?

849
00:41:25,887 --> 00:41:26,167
Speaker 1: Today?

850
00:41:26,247 --> 00:41:27,447
Speaker 3: Ones that we've written.

851
00:41:27,407 --> 00:41:31,087
Speaker 1: Both wow, so we're asking people to send them in.

852
00:41:31,127 --> 00:41:33,567
Speaker 1: But also there are some that we've written based on

853
00:41:33,687 --> 00:41:38,607
Speaker 1: the research we've done into what women want fantasize. You

854
00:41:38,687 --> 00:41:40,967
Speaker 1: don't want is to not have Well, you got your

855
00:41:40,967 --> 00:41:43,487
Speaker 1: headphones in, but they've not connected to bluetooth and you

856
00:41:43,567 --> 00:41:47,567
Speaker 1: press playing then the throbbing and I like, we played

857
00:41:47,567 --> 00:41:49,607
Speaker 1: a bit at our upfront in this room of like

858
00:41:50,167 --> 00:41:54,247
Speaker 1: hundreds of corporate nons meant to be it's funny, out louds,

859
00:41:54,247 --> 00:41:58,127
Speaker 1: what are your fantasies? Just kidding? If you want, you

860
00:41:58,167 --> 00:42:01,247
Speaker 1: can tell us if you want, what are you reading

861
00:42:01,447 --> 00:42:04,807
Speaker 1: or listening to? Or maybe you are into porn, maybe

862
00:42:04,807 --> 00:42:07,127
Speaker 1: you like some wambam or maybe you found some porn

863
00:42:07,487 --> 00:42:09,887
Speaker 1: where there is plot. I remember one time, I'm discovering

864
00:42:09,927 --> 00:42:12,927
Speaker 1: that one of my kids had been watching porn and

865
00:42:13,927 --> 00:42:16,847
Speaker 1: I went into long detail telling my husband about the plot,

866
00:42:17,287 --> 00:42:19,207
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I was worried that the plot was

867
00:42:19,207 --> 00:42:21,527
Speaker 1: in an inappropriate and there was a power imbalance, and

868
00:42:21,567 --> 00:42:24,407
Speaker 1: he just laughed and he went, I don't think he's

869
00:42:24,447 --> 00:42:28,407
Speaker 1: watching it for they're not following for the story. Out louders,

870
00:42:28,447 --> 00:42:30,727
Speaker 1: if you enjoy listening to this podcast, it would mean

871
00:42:30,807 --> 00:42:32,647
Speaker 1: so much. We hope you do. I mean, God, if

872
00:42:32,687 --> 00:42:35,207
Speaker 1: you're listening still at the end of it and you don't.

873
00:42:35,047 --> 00:42:36,327
Speaker 2: Like it, we're so sorry.

874
00:42:36,327 --> 00:42:40,167
Speaker 1: Stop stop it, just stop being a massacres turn us off.

875
00:42:40,167 --> 00:42:42,607
Speaker 1: But if you are still listening because you do like us,

876
00:42:43,167 --> 00:42:45,647
Speaker 1: we have a favor. If you could just do three

877
00:42:45,727 --> 00:42:49,207
Speaker 1: things for us, We're gonna ask you three. First, can

878
00:42:49,247 --> 00:42:52,807
Speaker 1: you please follow or subscribe to out loud because following

879
00:42:53,247 --> 00:42:56,087
Speaker 1: the pod helps you never to miss an episode, and

880
00:42:56,127 --> 00:42:58,727
Speaker 1: it helps us because you never miss an episode.

881
00:42:59,007 --> 00:43:01,007
Speaker 4: To do this, you just have to go to the

882
00:43:01,007 --> 00:43:03,527
Speaker 4: out Loud show page that's on Apple podcast Spotify wherever

883
00:43:03,567 --> 00:43:06,567
Speaker 4: you listen, and just tap the little plus symbol that

884
00:43:06,687 --> 00:43:07,927
Speaker 4: means that you follow us.

885
00:43:07,927 --> 00:43:09,487
Speaker 3: It is the most important thing for the pot book.

886
00:43:09,487 --> 00:43:11,687
Speaker 1: Click on the word follow depends on the app.

887
00:43:11,887 --> 00:43:14,047
Speaker 2: While you're there, give us a five star review. We

888
00:43:14,087 --> 00:43:16,927
Speaker 2: only really want five stars, thank you, but four and

889
00:43:16,927 --> 00:43:20,807
Speaker 2: a half. Would we accept it five star review and

890
00:43:20,887 --> 00:43:23,687
Speaker 2: a rating and share the episode with a friend, We'd

891
00:43:23,727 --> 00:43:26,447
Speaker 2: be very, very grateful to have even more friends in

892
00:43:26,447 --> 00:43:28,847
Speaker 2: our ears. And a massive thank you to all of

893
00:43:28,887 --> 00:43:32,127
Speaker 2: you out louders for listening to today's show, and of

894
00:43:32,127 --> 00:43:34,407
Speaker 2: course to our fabulous team who help us put it

895
00:43:34,447 --> 00:43:36,647
Speaker 2: together every day. We're going to be back in your

896
00:43:36,687 --> 00:43:37,367
Speaker 2: ears tomorrow.

897
00:43:37,607 --> 00:43:38,007
Speaker 1: Bye.

898
00:43:38,647 --> 00:43:39,847
Speaker 3: Bye.

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00:43:40,447 --> 00:43:43,367
Speaker 4: Shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening. If

900
00:43:43,367 --> 00:43:45,327
Speaker 4: you love the show and you want to support us,

901
00:43:45,607 --> 00:43:48,367
Speaker 4: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way

902
00:43:48,407 --> 00:43:51,007
Speaker 4: to do so. There's a link in the episode description