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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on Hello, it's Maya. This is no filter.

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Speaker 1: And if you've listened to Monday's episode with Anna Grossman,

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Speaker 1: who is the woman who runs a feminist, ethical, highly

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Speaker 1: vetted male escort service catering to an exclusively female clientele,

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Speaker 1: you might want to hear a little bit more in

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Speaker 1: part two of that episode, or a bonus episode that

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Speaker 1: we recorded for subscribers. I also interviewed one of the clients,

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Speaker 1: and the reason that I'm popping this back into your

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Speaker 1: feed today is that the missing link in all of

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Speaker 1: this is from the perspective of the male escort himself.

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Speaker 1: I first interviewed Mitch Larson last year. He is an escort.

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Speaker 1: He's actually retired now, but he was an escort for

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Speaker 1: a long time and he has this remarkable story hearing

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Speaker 1: in his own words, stories about his clients, stories about

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Speaker 1: how he got into it, stories about what his wife

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Speaker 1: thought of it all. It is such a great compliment

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Speaker 1: to the stories that we bought you this week. So

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Speaker 1: enjoy this episode with Mitch Larsen. Hey, there, this is

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Speaker 1: the No Filter Podcast, and I'm mea Friedman, and look,

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Speaker 1: I often start these episodes by saying I had a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions for my guest, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's ever been as true as in this episode, because

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Speaker 1: I'm interviewing a mail escort who's I was going to

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Speaker 1: say his stage name, but his sex name is Mitch Larson.

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Speaker 1: His real name is not Mitch Larsen, but he needed

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Speaker 1: a sex working name because he'd been a lawyer. He

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Speaker 1: was a stay at home dad when he started, and

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Speaker 1: he wanted some privacy. Nobody in his life knew what

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Speaker 1: he did, except for his wife at first, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to know about the first time he got paid

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Speaker 1: for sex. Did he have performance anxiety? How much did

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Speaker 1: it cost? Who hires a man for sex? It's not

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Speaker 1: who you would think, or maybe it is, but there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of different reasons that women hired Mitch for sex.

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Speaker 1: Some of them were married to men who didn't want

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Speaker 1: to have sex with him anymore. Some of them were

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Speaker 1: recovering from a breakup. One of them was terminally ill.

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Speaker 1: It's just a fascinating story. We talked about how he

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Speaker 1: managed to get it up. Really, what a woman looked like,

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Speaker 1: or whether he was attracted to her, how that wasn't

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Speaker 1: actually the deciding factor in how into it he was.

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Speaker 1: That'll surprise you as well. It certainly surprised me.

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Speaker 2: It's about that mental connection. It's about feel feeling me,

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Speaker 2: feeling wanted, and making them feel wanted, and that usually

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Speaker 2: got me erect and got me turned on.

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Speaker 1: We talked about the awkward time he tried to do

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Speaker 1: a porno and the very very funny conversation he had

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Speaker 1: with his wife about it, and it's a beautiful story.

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Speaker 1: He's a lovely man. Since this conversation, he's become a

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Speaker 1: writer for Mamma Maya because he just really wants to

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Speaker 1: help women. Enjoy this interview. I really did. And if

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Speaker 1: you're wondering why I call him Dan, that's his real name.

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Speaker 1: So he came out publicly to his friends and his

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Speaker 1: family before he released his memoir a couple of months ago.

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Speaker 1: It's called Time for Her. So now it's all out

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Speaker 1: in the open, and it meant that I had full

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Speaker 1: license to ask all the questions that are probably going

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Speaker 1: through your head right now. Enjoy this interview with Mail Escort,

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Speaker 1: which Larson also known as Dan. Dan can you tell

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Speaker 1: me about the first time you were ever paid for sex.

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Speaker 2: First time was about a week after I started advertising.

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Speaker 2: How old were you I was forty one.

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Speaker 1: And where were you in your life?

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Speaker 2: I was married. How oll was my son back then?

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Speaker 2: He would have been four. I think roughly four or five.

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Speaker 2: I had been trying to get work as photographer for

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Speaker 2: quite a while after bringing up my son being a

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Speaker 2: stay at home dad. Personally, my marriage was I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: say rocky. It wasn't great, but I'd done some things

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Speaker 2: that I'd regretted. As I mentioned in the book, it

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Speaker 2: wasn't a physical affair that I had, but I had

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Speaker 2: had a text affair with a person, and that was

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Speaker 2: just as painful for my wife as a physical one

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Speaker 2: would be, I imagine. So we had to mix things up

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Speaker 2: a bit. We were stagnant, and I asked if I

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Speaker 2: could be with somebody else because we were slightly mismatched

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Speaker 2: in the bedroom and that was causing a few issues.

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Speaker 1: That's a great way to recover from being caught cheating

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Speaker 1: on text, to ask if you consu.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's honesty. I mean that's what I sprew

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Speaker 2: because whenever possible, you know, don't let there be any

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Speaker 2: surprises in your marriage or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: If when you say you were mismatched in the bedroom,

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Speaker 1: did you want and how often did you want it?

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Speaker 1: What did the gap look like?

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Speaker 2: I wanted it more than once every day. I would

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Speaker 2: find myself waking up hoping that it might happen and suggesting,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe tonight we might be able to. She

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Speaker 2: was a doctor, she was yet so she'd be flat

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Speaker 2: out with running life and running out son as well.

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Speaker 2: So you know, if it got to the end of

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Speaker 2: the day and I'd got knocked back, I'd be like,

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Speaker 2: oh it just it caused us both anguish, I think,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, you know I was frustrated, and she was

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Speaker 2: frustrated that I was, and wanted to give me more,

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Speaker 2: but you know it wasn't able to.

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Speaker 1: So how often were you having sex?

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Speaker 2: On average? Maybe once a week, I think, which is

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Speaker 2: a fair bit. I know for a lot of married

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Speaker 2: people that's actually quite a bit. But I've got a

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Speaker 2: pretty high sex drive. As you gather.

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Speaker 1: Did she want to have sex once a week or

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Speaker 1: was she kind of throwing your bone because she knew

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Speaker 1: that you needed it.

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Speaker 2: I did get the sense she was throwing me a

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Speaker 2: bone so the other way around. So I got that sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't like that. I mean, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to pressure anyone into anything, and if she wasn't completely

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Speaker 2: comfortable and into it, then it made me feel bad.

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Speaker 1: So what were the rules that you settled on with

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Speaker 1: opening your marriage?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mentioned it to her, and then she literally

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Speaker 2: researched it to the end degree. For a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 2: She was googling the viability of doing it, and podcasts

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Speaker 2: and various bad forums. Open marriage, Yeah, about having an

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Speaker 2: open marriage and how successful it actually is and you know,

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Speaker 2: long term. And then she said, Okay, she wasn't obviously

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Speaker 2: particularly happy about it, but she'd sort of resigned herself

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Speaker 2: to it. And I said to her, as well, by

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Speaker 2: you allowing me, I've got to wrap my head around

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Speaker 2: with you with another guy or girl or whatever, you know.

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Speaker 1: Did she express any interest in wanting to do that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she did. She sort of allowed her mind to wander,

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Speaker 2: and we spoke about it a bit, and just that

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Speaker 2: feeling at that time, even though I hadn't actually done anything,

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Speaker 2: I just still remember it felt like I'd grown wings

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Speaker 2: or something like a huge weight had been lifted off

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Speaker 2: my shoulders, not at the thought of sleeping with someone else,

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Speaker 2: but just the prospect of being able to like I

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Speaker 2: could sort of you know, I could walk around and

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Speaker 2: sort of look at women in imagine for the first

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Speaker 2: time in you know, what was nine years at the time.

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Speaker 2: I know, I'm not really being such an advocate for

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Speaker 2: men saying this, but it just it was the truth.

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Speaker 2: That's how it felt at the time.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think everyone's human. Just because you're in

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Speaker 1: a committed relationship doesn't mean you're not sexually attracted to

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Speaker 1: other people. But you were exhilarated by the idea that

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Speaker 1: it was yessible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exhilarated, perfect word, That's exactly it.

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Speaker 1: And was it very much. You can do it, but

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Speaker 1: like you can't do it with that woman that you

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Speaker 1: were texting, or you can't do it with anyone more

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Speaker 1: than once. Like what with the boundaries put on it?

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Speaker 2: There were no spoken boundaries the person I was texting,

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Speaker 2: definitely not even if I could have, I wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: because that was such a saw point for.

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Speaker 1: Her, felt like such a betrayal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just would have dug the knife in further,

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Speaker 2: there was no way I was going to put her

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Speaker 2: through that. It was just don't tell her about it.

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Speaker 1: It was a donas don't Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I did. I slept with somebody else after

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Speaker 2: all that time, and it was okay, it was all right.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't phenomenal, but it was done. I really respect

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Speaker 2: and love her for allowing me for having done that.

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Speaker 1: So you only did it once.

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Speaker 2: I saw that one person once, and then this sort

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Speaker 2: of the escort idea came into my head. I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: is this possible? Because I was sort of mulling it

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Speaker 2: over and I started sort of going to Tinder because

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Speaker 2: I wasn't sure like if I was any good or

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Speaker 2: if I could sleep with someone with a condom on anymore,

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Speaker 2: because we hadn't in the marriage obviously. I think it

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Speaker 2: was maybe two other people before I took the plunge

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Speaker 2: and actually went into doing it professionally.

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Speaker 1: What was the appeal? Was it the money? Was it

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Speaker 1: the clarity of boundaries.

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Speaker 2: Of the job.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was not quite a big I would assume

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Speaker 1: quite a big leap to make right from having an

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Speaker 1: open marriage and sleeping with other women. Yeah, so then

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Speaker 1: making it your job and being paid for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't lie the appeal was the money.

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Speaker 2: Because I'm a bit old school, I wanted to chip

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Speaker 2: into the household funds and all I was doing was

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Speaker 2: getting the odd five hundred dollars two thousand dollar job,

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Speaker 2: everything sort of you know, a month or so, the

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Speaker 2: thought of making money was appealing. And then when I

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Speaker 2: first did make money, you know, I put it on

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Speaker 2: the counter and it was like, I'm contributing to the

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Speaker 2: household now. It felt wonderful, like, you know, this is

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Speaker 2: now our money.

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Speaker 1: You know, how do you raise that? Like, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about your I shouldn't say belaegued wife because I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: make her sound like a victim in this, but I'm

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Speaker 1: like imagining her coming home from her shift at work

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Speaker 1: one day and you're going, I'd like to open our marriage,

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Speaker 1: and then a little while later going, how would you

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Speaker 1: feel if I became an escort?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, these are big hurdles mentally to get over. How

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Speaker 1: did she react to that?

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Speaker 2: She reacted really well, Actually she was I don't want

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Speaker 2: to stay excited, but I do want to stay excited,

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Speaker 2: because she kind of was, and in a funny way,

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Speaker 2: she was actually kind of turned on by it. The

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Speaker 2: thought of more than.

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Speaker 1: You doing it for free.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, like women actually wanting to be with her

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Speaker 2: husband and paying to be with her husband. I think

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Speaker 2: that made her proud, which is a huge testament to her.

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Speaker 2: I agree. I mean, she's just been incredible and it

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Speaker 2: wasn't a miserable time as a lot of people might think.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of an exciting time for us. The

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Speaker 2: only reason it didn't work, you know, was it just

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Speaker 2: got so busy and Mitch started to take over. Dan,

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Speaker 2: That's when it went a bit south.

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Speaker 1: You talk about that first time putting the money on

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Speaker 1: the table, Can you take me back to the beginning

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Speaker 1: of that client and that experience, Like, how does a

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Speaker 1: regular guy from the suburbs who's a lawyer by trade,

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Speaker 1: a stay at home dad, how does he even find

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Speaker 1: himself in someone's house being paid to have sex.

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Speaker 2: I looked up the biggest directories in the country, so

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Speaker 2: I googled basically male escorts Sydney, male Escorts, Melbourne, male escorts,

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Speaker 2: Brisbane to see who were the big guys, and there

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Speaker 2: was one or two in particular.

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Speaker 1: So agencies or individuals.

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Speaker 2: Individuals just directories. So you pay them a certain amount

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Speaker 2: per month to have your picture up there.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the directory's not the actual When you say the

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Speaker 1: big guys, I thought you meant the actual male escort.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, you're checking out the No. I did check

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Speaker 2: out the competition too, definitely, yeah, just to see what

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Speaker 2: I could do and what I could do better and

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Speaker 2: what was on offer. I just got a sort of

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Speaker 2: an idea of the good and the bad, and I

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Speaker 2: did a lot of googling on some bad experiences and

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Speaker 2: where other guys had gone wrong, and I thought, well, okay,

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Speaker 2: that's something you know to pay attention to. You know,

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Speaker 2: just various things like some guy's falling asleep for God's like,

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Speaker 2: all sorts of things that happened. So then I just

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Speaker 2: put some photos up because I had all the equipment

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Speaker 2: and everything, and my beautiful wife at the time actually

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Speaker 2: helped me take them, like I'd frame the shots and

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Speaker 2: everything and then i'd d it them later on put

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Speaker 2: them on the directory.

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Speaker 1: Were they nudes?

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Speaker 2: No? No, no, definitely not.

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Speaker 1: What do women want to say, Like.

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Speaker 2: I believe sort of elegance. I think they want to

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Speaker 2: see class guys want to see nudes for sure. Male

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Speaker 2: clients of men.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So tell me about that. So when people think

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Speaker 1: of male sex workers, the more common thing is for

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Speaker 1: male sex workers servicing men. Yes, definitely so in the

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Speaker 1: sex industry. From what I understand, heterosexual male escorts who

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Speaker 1: only say women, you're in the minority quite a niche.

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Speaker 2: Successful ones that are in the niche. There's a lot

253
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Speaker 2: of guys out there that will pop their photos up

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Speaker 2: and say straight male escort only see women. And a

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Speaker 2: lot of them aren't the greatest guys, let me put

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Speaker 2: it that way. A lot of them are out there

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Speaker 2: for free sex basically, but not free but yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: as much sex as they can get. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: How can you tell the difference?

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Speaker 2: You need to look for a strong and long lasting

261
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Speaker 2: social media presence, comments on things they've done. You want

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Speaker 2: to look for testimonials, if the website they're on has testimonials,

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Speaker 2: even have a look at their own website if they're serious.

264
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Speaker 2: If that, they'll have their own professional website. The guys

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Speaker 2: that are legitimately into it will put money, good money

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Speaker 2: into it before they start, whereas the other guys will

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Speaker 2: just take random selfies and just bung it up on

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Speaker 2: the directory and hope for the best. Usually, what did.

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Speaker 1: You notice about the competition that they were around your age?

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Speaker 1: That they were younger. Is there a.

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Speaker 2: Type definitely not around my age. I think I was

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Speaker 2: probably the second oldest out there at the time. It's

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Speaker 2: a young man's game, yeah, it definitely is. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: that's a lot of the younger guys tend to do

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Speaker 2: that alongside only fans and their own sort of thing

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Speaker 2: as well for supplementary income. For me, I was one

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Speaker 2: of the older guys, which by default got me work,

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Speaker 2: you know, because a lot of sort of middle aged

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Speaker 2: women they don't want to be with their sons, you know,

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Speaker 2: and often you know, rippling chiseled six packs and that

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Speaker 2: sort of thing can be quite intimidating. So just generally

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Speaker 2: coming across as a kind, safe and likable sort of

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Speaker 2: guy already put me in front of a lot of

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Speaker 2: the other guys I found.

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Speaker 1: So you were on a directory and what did she do?

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Speaker 1: Did she text you? Did she how did it work?

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Speaker 2: She texted me mentioning that she was sort of interested,

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Speaker 2: and then I remember I was dry.

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Speaker 1: I mean sort of interested.

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Speaker 2: Well, she was just sort of testing the waters. Most

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Speaker 2: people do, like when they're sending an inquiry. It's very

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Speaker 2: it's not rare, but most people don't know what they're

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Speaker 2: doing when they contact a male escort. And that's one

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Speaker 2: thing I want to do, is act as an intermediary

295
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Speaker 2: between clients and escorts at some point because women go

296
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Speaker 2: into it. And they said, I have no idea what

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Speaker 2: I'm doing, Please help me sort of think. So this

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Speaker 2: is what this person did. And she was turning thirty

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Speaker 2: and I I was driving. I got a phone call

300
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Speaker 2: and it was from her friends and they were all

301
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Speaker 2: sort of hovered around the phone and all sort of like, oh,

302
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Speaker 2: giggling and everything on speaker, and so I just sort

303
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Speaker 2: of said, yeah, I'm happy to see you know, let

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Speaker 2: me know.

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Speaker 1: Have friends booked you for her?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? They did? Yeah?

307
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Speaker 1: And is that ethical when you're a surprise?

308
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Speaker 2: Oh no, it wasn't a surprise. She was there as well,

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Speaker 2: she knewful. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's not ethical. Surprise.

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Speaker 1: No, what reason did they give? And she give for

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Speaker 1: wanting to book you?

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Speaker 2: She'd been cheated on by a long term boyfriend and

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Speaker 2: being thirty, she was actually quite young, like on the

314
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Speaker 2: younger end of the scale of people that booked me.

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Speaker 2: So she'd been really hurt by a guy and she

316
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Speaker 2: just needed to get back on the horse, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: And you were that horse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So what did you do next?

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Speaker 2: Well, I got really nervous to begin with set the date.

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Speaker 2: I think I went shopping to buy myself some clothes

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Speaker 2: to make myself feel as hot as I possibly could.

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Speaker 2: And then the time came, and you know, I had

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Speaker 2: to get down to the peninsula at eight or eight

325
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Speaker 2: thirty or something like that. So, you know, as we

326
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Speaker 2: were putting my son to bed, I was just getting

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Speaker 2: myself all priven, proper and clitch manscape. Oh yeah, absolutely, yes, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Did you ask her before, like in that phone call,

329
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Speaker 1: what her expectations were or what she wanted?

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Speaker 2: Not specifically, because I at that point I didn't know

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Speaker 2: really what to expect either, because she was my first

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Speaker 2: So I was getting ready, took the drive down there.

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Speaker 2: The friends met me at the bottom of the motel

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Speaker 2: and it was a motel, an old school motel.

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Speaker 1: Where they'd booked a room.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: So were they've been quite protective, Yeah, yeah, they were.

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Speaker 2: They were definitely. She was up in the room already, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and they were just sort of like, oh my god,

340
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Speaker 2: they were all excited and everything, and it was quite fun.

341
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Speaker 2: It was actually really it was really sort of natural

342
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Speaker 2: and organic. Then I went knocked on the door and

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Speaker 2: couldn't believe what I was doing at the time. It

344
00:16:06,925 --> 00:16:09,005
Speaker 2: was just surreal even thinking back to it. Knocked on

345
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Speaker 2: the door and then this beautiful young thirty year old

346
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Speaker 2: just standing there, just sort of shaking and just she

347
00:16:16,685 --> 00:16:20,725
Speaker 2: was absolutely petrified. And I'd come to see that a

348
00:16:20,725 --> 00:16:24,925
Speaker 2: lot in so many clients over my time. Just nerves absolute. Yeah,

349
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Speaker 2: just the sheer terror, I guess because it's such an

350
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Speaker 2: unknown and such a new experience and they didn't know

351
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Speaker 2: what to expect.

352
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Speaker 1: Were they scared, like physically that you might harm them,

353
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Speaker 1: or were they just nervous because of internalized shame or

354
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Speaker 1: couldn't believe what they were going to do fear of

355
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Speaker 1: the unknown? What do you think it was?

356
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Speaker 2: I hoped to death it wasn't anything to do with safety.

357
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Speaker 2: I'm sure that does come into women's minds for sure.

358
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Speaker 2: And one reason I started doing phone calls before bookings

359
00:16:53,445 --> 00:16:55,405
Speaker 2: was to reassure them and just let them know that right,

360
00:16:55,485 --> 00:16:58,045
Speaker 2: you know, I'll be checking in every time we do

361
00:16:58,165 --> 00:17:01,365
Speaker 2: something new, just really reassuring them that'd be okay, and

362
00:17:01,565 --> 00:17:03,645
Speaker 2: the option not to do anything is always on the

363
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Speaker 2: table as well. That's the other thing. You know, there's

364
00:17:06,245 --> 00:17:08,205
Speaker 2: a phrase, you know, you're not paid to come along,

365
00:17:08,205 --> 00:17:10,565
Speaker 2: you're paid to piss off, So that's what it is.

366
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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So I think she was letting them know

367
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Speaker 1: they have control.

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00:17:13,845 --> 00:17:18,645
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, but also taking control myself, showing them

369
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Speaker 2: and leading them away because that's almost always wanted as well,

370
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Speaker 2: because they didn't know what they were doing. So I

371
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Speaker 2: think in that particular situation, she didn't know what to

372
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Speaker 2: expect and didn't know how it was going to play out.

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Speaker 1: How is it different to having sex as someone who

374
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Speaker 1: wasn't paying you.

375
00:17:33,405 --> 00:17:39,245
Speaker 2: I guess unpaid sex, you might sort of let yourself

376
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Speaker 2: go before she's come sometimes, you know, you might be

377
00:17:43,765 --> 00:17:45,805
Speaker 2: a little bit selfish if she says it's all right.

378
00:17:46,205 --> 00:17:48,245
Speaker 2: I was always a pleaser in bed, and I would prefer,

379
00:17:48,485 --> 00:17:51,405
Speaker 2: you know, got pleasure out of others pleasure. But when

380
00:17:51,405 --> 00:17:53,565
Speaker 2: you were being paid for it, there were sort of

381
00:17:54,125 --> 00:17:56,205
Speaker 2: mental checklists that you had. You know. It was like

382
00:17:56,645 --> 00:17:58,845
Speaker 2: make sure she's calmed down, and make sure everything's you know,

383
00:17:58,965 --> 00:18:01,525
Speaker 2: checked in and she's okay, and put the music on

384
00:18:01,645 --> 00:18:02,925
Speaker 2: all that sort of thing, you know, make it a

385
00:18:02,965 --> 00:18:05,805
Speaker 2: real experience for her, I think, and everything is about

386
00:18:05,805 --> 00:18:08,525
Speaker 2: the client absolutely everything. So you're just looking in their eyes,

387
00:18:08,565 --> 00:18:11,005
Speaker 2: you're reading their book, body signals. You know, if they

388
00:18:11,085 --> 00:18:13,725
Speaker 2: start stiffening up at you doing something, you just pull back.

389
00:18:14,165 --> 00:18:16,125
Speaker 2: Little tips I give to guys who asked me who

390
00:18:16,125 --> 00:18:17,765
Speaker 2: are going in industry, things like, you know, you never

391
00:18:17,845 --> 00:18:20,005
Speaker 2: touch people's necks because you don't know what trauma they've

392
00:18:20,005 --> 00:18:23,085
Speaker 2: been through. So many different things that you learn and

393
00:18:23,245 --> 00:18:25,525
Speaker 2: being paid is just entirely about them.

394
00:18:26,245 --> 00:18:28,525
Speaker 1: How much did it cost that first time?

395
00:18:28,805 --> 00:18:31,405
Speaker 2: That one was only three hundred bucks for how long

396
00:18:31,485 --> 00:18:31,885
Speaker 2: an hour?

397
00:18:32,725 --> 00:18:35,085
Speaker 1: And what do you get for that? Whatever you want?

398
00:18:35,725 --> 00:18:38,325
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, it wasn't long enough for me.

399
00:18:38,445 --> 00:18:42,645
Speaker 2: I started making it two hours. But because it was

400
00:18:42,685 --> 00:18:45,165
Speaker 2: too rush for me. For me personally, I need to

401
00:18:45,165 --> 00:18:46,725
Speaker 2: build up a bond with the person I was with,

402
00:18:46,845 --> 00:18:50,245
Speaker 2: I found and women love anticipation too. That's an incredibly

403
00:18:50,245 --> 00:18:53,125
Speaker 2: sexy thing. So rather than diving into things, you know,

404
00:18:53,285 --> 00:18:56,245
Speaker 2: just flirting is wonderful. And I had a client once

405
00:18:56,285 --> 00:18:58,325
Speaker 2: who I was flirting for ages, and I said to her,

406
00:18:58,885 --> 00:19:00,925
Speaker 2: you realize you can just kiss me whenever you want,

407
00:19:01,165 --> 00:19:02,725
Speaker 2: and sort of this little light bulb went off in

408
00:19:02,725 --> 00:19:04,685
Speaker 2: her head and she just dived on me. And kissed me.

409
00:19:04,765 --> 00:19:06,725
Speaker 2: So I was like, it was really cute.

410
00:19:07,285 --> 00:19:11,365
Speaker 1: How do you negotiate the actual Okay, can you give

411
00:19:11,405 --> 00:19:12,165
Speaker 1: me the money now?

412
00:19:12,205 --> 00:19:12,285
Speaker 2: Like?

413
00:19:12,525 --> 00:19:14,685
Speaker 1: Is that awkward? Was that awkward that first time?

414
00:19:15,165 --> 00:19:17,805
Speaker 2: No? No, it's not usually awkward. Usually we talk about

415
00:19:17,845 --> 00:19:19,805
Speaker 2: that on the phone or the texts or something like that.

416
00:19:19,885 --> 00:19:21,845
Speaker 2: Usually it's just an envelope that's put on the table.

417
00:19:22,245 --> 00:19:23,845
Speaker 2: They say, oh, that's for you. You to say, oh,

418
00:19:23,845 --> 00:19:25,405
Speaker 2: thank you so much, and then you just make as

419
00:19:25,445 --> 00:19:26,685
Speaker 2: little deal of it as possible.

420
00:19:26,725 --> 00:19:27,525
Speaker 1: What if they forget?

421
00:19:27,965 --> 00:19:30,845
Speaker 2: You'd usually do like a transfer of funds or something

422
00:19:30,885 --> 00:19:31,205
Speaker 2: like that.

423
00:19:31,365 --> 00:19:33,285
Speaker 1: But how do you bring it up? Like if the

424
00:19:33,365 --> 00:19:36,845
Speaker 1: envelope's not there, they don't have cash with them that's

425
00:19:36,885 --> 00:19:37,845
Speaker 1: going to the ATM.

426
00:19:38,045 --> 00:19:40,405
Speaker 2: I would leave it to the last minute. Usually I'd

427
00:19:40,445 --> 00:19:42,605
Speaker 2: be almost on the way out and then I'd be like, oh,

428
00:19:42,645 --> 00:19:44,965
Speaker 2: did you need my bank details or something like that.

429
00:19:45,205 --> 00:19:47,525
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I imagine it's a bit of a buzzkill if.

430
00:19:47,405 --> 00:19:49,805
Speaker 2: You do it exactly. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. You want

431
00:19:49,845 --> 00:19:50,885
Speaker 2: to get it out of the way as soon as

432
00:19:50,965 --> 00:19:53,405
Speaker 2: you can, or just not mention it until the experience

433
00:19:53,485 --> 00:19:55,245
Speaker 2: is over and you don't want to come in crashing

434
00:19:55,245 --> 00:19:57,365
Speaker 2: to back down to worth in a second. But you

435
00:19:57,405 --> 00:19:59,125
Speaker 2: do need to let them know. You know, you're there

436
00:19:59,125 --> 00:20:01,205
Speaker 2: for a reason and it's your profession. You know, I

437
00:20:01,285 --> 00:20:02,205
Speaker 2: made a living out of it.

438
00:20:02,725 --> 00:20:04,245
Speaker 1: When you left, were her friends still there?

439
00:20:05,125 --> 00:20:10,365
Speaker 2: They were, Actually they were an archway like a plane

440
00:20:10,445 --> 00:20:14,005
Speaker 2: going just like the water cannons. They were downstairs here.

441
00:20:14,045 --> 00:20:15,565
Speaker 2: I left her in the bedroom, gave her a big

442
00:20:15,645 --> 00:20:18,445
Speaker 2: hug and kiss and closed the door, and they were

443
00:20:18,645 --> 00:20:21,045
Speaker 2: down there. They were sinking I don't know, Bourbon and

444
00:20:21,085 --> 00:20:23,605
Speaker 2: Cox or something like that. At the time, they said,

445
00:20:23,605 --> 00:20:25,525
Speaker 2: oh see laa me to thanks so much for that.

446
00:20:25,725 --> 00:20:27,565
Speaker 2: And then you could just see them just run up

447
00:20:27,605 --> 00:20:29,365
Speaker 2: the stairs to go and see how it went with her.

448
00:20:29,925 --> 00:20:32,445
Speaker 2: And then yeah, later on I got a message, you know,

449
00:20:32,485 --> 00:20:36,005
Speaker 2: do you strip as well? I was like, did you No? No,

450
00:20:36,205 --> 00:20:40,125
Speaker 2: I did not. I'd be horrifically embarrassed. I couldn't do it.

451
00:20:40,205 --> 00:20:42,005
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'd feel like an idiot. I think.

452
00:20:42,485 --> 00:20:43,925
Speaker 2: I don't know. I was forty one at the time,

453
00:20:44,005 --> 00:20:47,285
Speaker 2: and stripping is another talent altogether. You've got to be

454
00:20:47,325 --> 00:20:49,485
Speaker 2: able to dance, you do. You've got to dance, You've

455
00:20:49,485 --> 00:20:51,965
Speaker 2: got to play the crowd. It's a totally different beast.

456
00:20:52,285 --> 00:20:53,485
Speaker 1: You tried to do a porno?

457
00:20:53,925 --> 00:20:57,605
Speaker 2: I did. I did tell me about that that porno.

458
00:20:58,045 --> 00:20:59,885
Speaker 2: I thought I was the luckiest guy on earth. I

459
00:20:59,925 --> 00:21:01,685
Speaker 2: got to be in a porno without doing any sort

460
00:21:01,685 --> 00:21:04,245
Speaker 2: of auditioning or anything like that. I didn't get to

461
00:21:04,285 --> 00:21:07,085
Speaker 2: hear who my co star was until the week before

462
00:21:07,645 --> 00:21:10,125
Speaker 2: I got flown up here to Sydney. It was just

463
00:21:10,445 --> 00:21:12,325
Speaker 2: kind of surreal, Like there was a script that we

464
00:21:12,405 --> 00:21:14,125
Speaker 2: went through. You know, we had all our tests, you know,

465
00:21:14,245 --> 00:21:16,685
Speaker 2: visual tests for any sort of sdis or anything like that,

466
00:21:17,125 --> 00:21:20,285
Speaker 2: and apparently visual inspection, yeah, yeah, as well as a

467
00:21:20,365 --> 00:21:22,325
Speaker 2: medical certificate proving that you've been tested.

468
00:21:22,365 --> 00:21:25,365
Speaker 1: And did they take you through here's the storyline? What

469
00:21:25,485 --> 00:21:26,245
Speaker 1: did you have to be?

470
00:21:26,645 --> 00:21:30,125
Speaker 2: I had to be a client of a massuse, and

471
00:21:30,165 --> 00:21:35,165
Speaker 2: the masseuse was a childhood crush of mine, and miraculously

472
00:21:35,205 --> 00:21:39,045
Speaker 2: I walked into a massage parlor and there she was. Yeah,

473
00:21:40,005 --> 00:21:41,765
Speaker 2: oh yeah, it's funny, isn't it How these things happen

474
00:21:41,805 --> 00:21:42,365
Speaker 2: in porno.

475
00:21:42,245 --> 00:21:45,885
Speaker 1: Is Yeah, And so on the set, what happened.

476
00:21:45,765 --> 00:21:48,125
Speaker 2: Well, I went through all the acting. Apparently I acted

477
00:21:48,165 --> 00:21:51,405
Speaker 2: really well, and then then it came down to all right,

478
00:21:51,845 --> 00:21:53,325
Speaker 2: that's the enough of the acting. This is what's going

479
00:21:53,365 --> 00:21:54,965
Speaker 2: to happen now, all right, we're going to be filming.

480
00:21:55,365 --> 00:21:57,125
Speaker 2: She's going to blow you for a little while, then

481
00:21:57,205 --> 00:21:59,125
Speaker 2: you have sex. We need to get shots of this

482
00:21:59,285 --> 00:22:01,405
Speaker 2: so that I'm going to give you a five minute

483
00:22:01,445 --> 00:22:04,405
Speaker 2: countdown and then during that time, if you can come,

484
00:22:04,725 --> 00:22:05,685
Speaker 2: try and come.

485
00:22:05,725 --> 00:22:08,405
Speaker 1: And just you know what, like the clock starts five minutes,

486
00:22:08,445 --> 00:22:11,085
Speaker 1: can you please come? And it gets to the zuo yep, yep,

487
00:22:11,405 --> 00:22:15,925
Speaker 1: or during sorry, during that time during five minute windows exactly, yeah, yeah, okay.

488
00:22:15,725 --> 00:22:17,445
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's like they've got enough footage of the

489
00:22:17,445 --> 00:22:19,525
Speaker 2: other stuff, so now they just need the cum shot,

490
00:22:19,565 --> 00:22:22,765
Speaker 2: the money shot, the money shot exactly. Just talking about it,

491
00:22:22,845 --> 00:22:25,725
Speaker 2: I just was useless. My cock just went nowhere. It

492
00:22:25,765 --> 00:22:29,405
Speaker 2: was just shriveled, absolutely tribal went nowhere. So they fortunately

493
00:22:29,445 --> 00:22:31,965
Speaker 2: gave me a little bit of time to recoup myself

494
00:22:32,005 --> 00:22:34,485
Speaker 2: and said go into a bedroom. But when you come out,

495
00:22:34,565 --> 00:22:36,885
Speaker 2: you come out hard. You know, it was really really

496
00:22:36,925 --> 00:22:38,285
Speaker 2: quite cold. Actually, when I look.

497
00:22:38,165 --> 00:22:40,085
Speaker 1: Back on it, are they not pills you can take?

498
00:22:40,405 --> 00:22:42,605
Speaker 2: Well, you can take pills, but pills don't actually work

499
00:22:42,685 --> 00:22:45,885
Speaker 2: unless you're turned on. Really, Yeah, Like my job would

500
00:22:45,885 --> 00:22:47,765
Speaker 2: have been a lot easier if I could have taken

501
00:22:47,805 --> 00:22:50,845
Speaker 2: a cialis or a viagra. Yeah, And if you can

502
00:22:50,845 --> 00:22:52,565
Speaker 2: take them and stare at a brick wall and get

503
00:22:52,565 --> 00:22:54,845
Speaker 2: a heart on, then anyone can be an escort.

504
00:22:55,125 --> 00:22:57,205
Speaker 1: Like I thought that's how they worked.

505
00:22:57,805 --> 00:22:59,645
Speaker 2: Not at all. No, you can take as many as

506
00:22:59,645 --> 00:23:02,125
Speaker 2: you want, and unless you have something to work with,

507
00:23:02,565 --> 00:23:04,765
Speaker 2: unless you prompt the blood flow to go down to

508
00:23:04,805 --> 00:23:07,085
Speaker 2: your penis, then it doesn't actually work at all. So

509
00:23:07,685 --> 00:23:09,565
Speaker 2: so your mind has to be into it as much's

510
00:23:09,605 --> 00:23:10,005
Speaker 2: your body.

511
00:23:10,325 --> 00:23:12,485
Speaker 1: I imagine they say these things on pornsett's a lot.

512
00:23:12,485 --> 00:23:13,965
Speaker 1: What did the actress say?

513
00:23:14,125 --> 00:23:16,645
Speaker 2: She was wonderful, she was so kind. She was saying,

514
00:23:16,645 --> 00:23:20,605
Speaker 2: this happens more often than not, and really it does. Yeah. Yeah,

515
00:23:20,645 --> 00:23:23,485
Speaker 2: So so I totally tip my hat to the guys

516
00:23:23,525 --> 00:23:26,445
Speaker 2: that consistently do it and just managed to pull it

517
00:23:26,485 --> 00:23:28,885
Speaker 2: off so many times, you know, in front of cameras.

518
00:23:28,925 --> 00:23:31,165
Speaker 2: It's just it's a whole skill, and it takes acting

519
00:23:31,205 --> 00:23:33,205
Speaker 2: to the next level, I think, to control your body

520
00:23:33,245 --> 00:23:33,885
Speaker 2: the way they do.

521
00:23:34,565 --> 00:23:37,245
Speaker 1: My favorite part of this story is you calling your wife,

522
00:23:37,405 --> 00:23:39,525
Speaker 1: who you were still married to at the time. Yeah,

523
00:23:39,725 --> 00:23:40,485
Speaker 1: for a pep talk.

524
00:23:41,165 --> 00:23:44,485
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was so sweet, she was just every time

525
00:23:44,485 --> 00:23:47,085
Speaker 2: I talk about her. I just remember how nice she was. Yeah,

526
00:23:47,125 --> 00:23:49,605
Speaker 2: I had to take a walk, and I was really affected.

527
00:23:49,685 --> 00:23:51,925
Speaker 2: I felt, you know, I was super nervous even going

528
00:23:52,005 --> 00:23:54,525
Speaker 2: up there, to the point I think that's why I failed.

529
00:23:54,525 --> 00:23:56,725
Speaker 2: I just the fear of failure was almost too much.

530
00:23:56,805 --> 00:23:58,765
Speaker 2: So I went for a walk and sat on some

531
00:23:58,885 --> 00:24:01,605
Speaker 2: rocks overlooking some crashing water up you know, along the

532
00:24:01,605 --> 00:24:04,245
Speaker 2: coast up here in Sydney, and just gave her a

533
00:24:04,245 --> 00:24:06,925
Speaker 2: call and said, I'm failing. I can't do this, you know,

534
00:24:07,445 --> 00:24:09,045
Speaker 2: this is the worst. And I was literally to use

535
00:24:09,085 --> 00:24:11,325
Speaker 2: him I at the time, and she's like, you can

536
00:24:11,365 --> 00:24:13,205
Speaker 2: do it, don't worry, you can do it. She sent

537
00:24:13,285 --> 00:24:16,645
Speaker 2: me like this risky photo that she'd taken, you know herself. Yeah.

538
00:24:16,845 --> 00:24:19,085
Speaker 1: Just she was just wonderful player.

539
00:24:19,165 --> 00:24:21,285
Speaker 2: Oh she was. She was. She can't She just cared

540
00:24:21,285 --> 00:24:24,605
Speaker 2: about my mental health so much. But nah. I went

541
00:24:24,645 --> 00:24:28,165
Speaker 2: back down there and failed again. And then they said,

542
00:24:28,165 --> 00:24:30,485
Speaker 2: all right, well we've got time tomorrow, but you know,

543
00:24:30,845 --> 00:24:33,325
Speaker 2: just get a good night's sleep, go to these sex

544
00:24:33,365 --> 00:24:36,085
Speaker 2: stores because they'll sell you viagor or sales. It's like, well,

545
00:24:36,325 --> 00:24:38,525
Speaker 2: next morning, I came back even worse and just it

546
00:24:38,565 --> 00:24:41,805
Speaker 2: was just no go. And I'm glad. I'm really glad

547
00:24:41,845 --> 00:24:44,365
Speaker 2: because I just I thought it was something that I

548
00:24:44,445 --> 00:24:47,725
Speaker 2: would enjoy, but it was a force of the universe

549
00:24:47,805 --> 00:24:49,525
Speaker 2: that made it not happen. So there's no sort of

550
00:24:49,525 --> 00:24:51,085
Speaker 2: recoy out there of me being on it, you know

551
00:24:51,125 --> 00:24:51,525
Speaker 2: what I mean.

552
00:24:53,165 --> 00:24:57,125
Speaker 1: Up next, there are more questions for Mitch or Dan,

553
00:24:57,805 --> 00:25:02,085
Speaker 1: including how much he charges and what types of women

554
00:25:02,365 --> 00:25:07,445
Speaker 1: book him, and also his sort of descent into drugs.

555
00:25:07,485 --> 00:25:11,485
Speaker 1: Things got really ugly for while there before he pulled

556
00:25:11,565 --> 00:25:14,325
Speaker 1: himself out of it. Stay with us, we'll be back shortly.

557
00:25:18,765 --> 00:25:21,685
Speaker 1: Something that comes through in your book, which is probably

558
00:25:21,805 --> 00:25:25,205
Speaker 1: unexpected for a lot of people it was for me,

559
00:25:25,645 --> 00:25:31,045
Speaker 1: is firstly how nervous you would get before meeting new clients,

560
00:25:31,965 --> 00:25:35,405
Speaker 1: and secondly, what a soft you are. And I don't

561
00:25:35,405 --> 00:25:39,845
Speaker 1: mean that in an erectional sense. You're a bit softy

562
00:25:40,165 --> 00:25:44,165
Speaker 1: like you're so like even the name of your book

563
00:25:44,285 --> 00:25:47,965
Speaker 1: Time for Her, a memoir of true romance. That might

564
00:25:48,005 --> 00:25:50,205
Speaker 1: seem like it's almost taking the piss because you know

565
00:25:50,325 --> 00:25:55,405
Speaker 1: you're paid to have sex, but you talk with all

566
00:25:55,525 --> 00:25:59,605
Speaker 1: your clients about needing some kind of emotional connection to

567
00:25:59,645 --> 00:26:02,365
Speaker 1: be able to go through with it, to be able

568
00:26:02,365 --> 00:26:04,005
Speaker 1: to be turned on and to be able to even

569
00:26:04,045 --> 00:26:05,885
Speaker 1: not be turned on, but to be able to get

570
00:26:05,885 --> 00:26:08,525
Speaker 1: an erection and actually, you know, do your job.

571
00:26:09,405 --> 00:26:11,645
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's just how I'm wired. It's funny.

572
00:26:11,645 --> 00:26:15,485
Speaker 2: I've gone into bookings and there's been zero connection and

573
00:26:15,925 --> 00:26:19,045
Speaker 2: it hasn't been working. But then I've started talking to

574
00:26:19,085 --> 00:26:21,565
Speaker 2: them about their histories and about things that have happened.

575
00:26:21,605 --> 00:26:24,085
Speaker 2: And I don't want this to sound perverse or anything,

576
00:26:24,125 --> 00:26:28,565
Speaker 2: but they've started crying and it's made me hard because

577
00:26:29,405 --> 00:26:31,285
Speaker 2: the reason is because I feel like I was getting

578
00:26:31,325 --> 00:26:34,925
Speaker 2: through and making a difference and it sort of brought

579
00:26:34,925 --> 00:26:37,245
Speaker 2: out a nurturing side in me. I think, so I'd

580
00:26:37,245 --> 00:26:40,965
Speaker 2: sort of cuddle and the effect of me cuddling and

581
00:26:41,005 --> 00:26:44,965
Speaker 2: disarming them gave me a feeling of worth and therefore

582
00:26:45,005 --> 00:26:49,285
Speaker 2: made me feel I guess strong and sexy.

583
00:26:49,445 --> 00:26:51,845
Speaker 1: And also I guess that's intimacy, Like if someone can

584
00:26:51,845 --> 00:26:54,885
Speaker 1: cry in front of you, Yeah, that's showing a level

585
00:26:54,925 --> 00:26:56,965
Speaker 1: of vulnerability and intimacy.

586
00:26:56,725 --> 00:27:00,125
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely. Yeah. And trust in you, yeah for sure.

587
00:27:00,245 --> 00:27:03,485
Speaker 2: And a lot of clients understandably they have a barrier

588
00:27:03,565 --> 00:27:05,925
Speaker 2: up when they first meet me or first used to

589
00:27:05,925 --> 00:27:07,765
Speaker 2: meet me. You know, I'd have a barrier up and

590
00:27:07,765 --> 00:27:10,005
Speaker 2: I've done it a few times. I knew how to

591
00:27:10,045 --> 00:27:13,005
Speaker 2: sort of get them talking and get them trusting me quickly,

592
00:27:13,045 --> 00:27:15,165
Speaker 2: but it was something that I needed to have. I

593
00:27:15,245 --> 00:27:19,205
Speaker 2: needed to have that bond before love making could take place,

594
00:27:19,245 --> 00:27:22,565
Speaker 2: and love making not sex like actual passionate love making.

595
00:27:22,605 --> 00:27:26,645
Speaker 2: And once leaving a booking having achieved that was just

596
00:27:26,805 --> 00:27:29,325
Speaker 2: a wonderful feeling, you know. Not the physical cybe it,

597
00:27:29,365 --> 00:27:31,685
Speaker 2: you know, that was nice too, but just having made

598
00:27:31,725 --> 00:27:34,285
Speaker 2: a difference and picked up somebody's mood and made them

599
00:27:34,325 --> 00:27:37,485
Speaker 2: feel really good, It was really nice. It was wonderful.

600
00:27:37,845 --> 00:27:41,125
Speaker 1: After that first time, things sped up.

601
00:27:41,405 --> 00:27:42,805
Speaker 2: Yes, you got busier, yeap.

602
00:27:43,685 --> 00:27:47,725
Speaker 1: Over the time you were working. Did the women who

603
00:27:48,405 --> 00:27:52,885
Speaker 1: booked your services or inquiet about them fall into some

604
00:27:52,965 --> 00:27:56,165
Speaker 1: particular categories? I know every woman was different, obviously, but

605
00:27:56,205 --> 00:27:59,645
Speaker 1: you must have noticed some commonalities as to why women

606
00:27:59,805 --> 00:28:00,445
Speaker 1: would book you.

607
00:28:00,685 --> 00:28:05,405
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, women usually booked me after something significant had

608
00:28:05,405 --> 00:28:08,405
Speaker 2: happened in their lives. So like the thirty year old

609
00:28:08,485 --> 00:28:12,805
Speaker 2: you know well and truly torn apart, other women had

610
00:28:12,845 --> 00:28:16,525
Speaker 2: been in loveless marriages for decades. It was like the

611
00:28:16,525 --> 00:28:18,245
Speaker 2: flip side of how I felt a little bit with

612
00:28:18,285 --> 00:28:21,325
Speaker 2: my ex. You know, they were craving intimacy, not necessarily sex,

613
00:28:21,445 --> 00:28:25,845
Speaker 2: just validation, just hugs, touching, just some sort of intimacy.

614
00:28:26,405 --> 00:28:29,005
Speaker 2: And they tended to be sort of forty to fifty

615
00:28:29,045 --> 00:28:32,005
Speaker 2: five years old on average roughly, but they always had

616
00:28:33,005 --> 00:28:36,325
Speaker 2: a feeling of needing to empower themselves when they contacted me.

617
00:28:36,445 --> 00:28:40,445
Speaker 2: So I always say that you contacting me is you

618
00:28:40,525 --> 00:28:42,845
Speaker 2: at your bravest. Now, don't think you're at your weakest.

619
00:28:42,925 --> 00:28:45,645
Speaker 2: You actually reaching out and doing that is you finally

620
00:28:45,685 --> 00:28:49,165
Speaker 2: taking control, and you're incredibly brave doing this. So give

621
00:28:49,205 --> 00:28:51,205
Speaker 2: yourself a pat on the back, just, you know, even

622
00:28:51,245 --> 00:28:53,405
Speaker 2: if you don't go ahead with a booking, which often happened,

623
00:28:53,645 --> 00:28:55,885
Speaker 2: you know, we'd just talk and she'd be like, I'm

624
00:28:55,885 --> 00:28:57,965
Speaker 2: not I really enjoyed the talk, and I'd be like,

625
00:28:58,005 --> 00:28:59,645
Speaker 2: that's fine. Just let me know if you ever want

626
00:28:59,645 --> 00:29:01,725
Speaker 2: to see me sort of thing. But they were always

627
00:29:01,765 --> 00:29:04,445
Speaker 2: just well and truly taking control of their lives again

628
00:29:04,765 --> 00:29:05,525
Speaker 2: when they booked.

629
00:29:05,885 --> 00:29:08,965
Speaker 1: So that's so interesting on that. You know, I guess

630
00:29:08,965 --> 00:29:11,885
Speaker 1: an exis ampule of that would be the widow that

631
00:29:11,925 --> 00:29:14,765
Speaker 1: you saw, a woman who was in her early seventies.

632
00:29:15,525 --> 00:29:17,205
Speaker 1: How did that book can come about?

633
00:29:17,565 --> 00:29:21,845
Speaker 2: She contacted me via text. She was over in Perth

634
00:29:22,405 --> 00:29:26,965
Speaker 2: and her husband had some serious medical issues for the

635
00:29:27,045 --> 00:29:29,445
Speaker 2: previous I think it was about five years or something,

636
00:29:29,565 --> 00:29:32,245
Speaker 2: and he was in pretty serious decline before he passed away.

637
00:29:32,765 --> 00:29:35,765
Speaker 2: And even before that, it had been maybe twelve years

638
00:29:35,765 --> 00:29:38,845
Speaker 2: before that that she'd ever actually made love to him.

639
00:29:39,325 --> 00:29:42,365
Speaker 2: So she contacted me. She was quite determined in what

640
00:29:42,485 --> 00:29:44,405
Speaker 2: she said. She was saying, I'd like to see you

641
00:29:44,445 --> 00:29:47,565
Speaker 2: for an overnight booking. By the way, I'm a mature woman,

642
00:29:48,045 --> 00:29:50,245
Speaker 2: quite a bit older than you. And I was like, okay,

643
00:29:50,845 --> 00:29:52,805
Speaker 2: all right, and I had to suss out sort of

644
00:29:52,925 --> 00:29:54,725
Speaker 2: roughly how old, and she said, you know, she was

645
00:29:54,725 --> 00:29:57,205
Speaker 2: seventy two at the time, and then it just went

646
00:29:57,245 --> 00:29:57,645
Speaker 2: from there.

647
00:29:57,805 --> 00:30:00,245
Speaker 1: Yeah, so how did you feel about that? I imagine that's

648
00:30:00,285 --> 00:30:01,445
Speaker 1: around your mum's age.

649
00:30:02,125 --> 00:30:06,165
Speaker 2: Yes, that was a concern. I didn't really panic too

650
00:30:06,245 --> 00:30:11,045
Speaker 2: much at all, because it was another wanting to reclaim

651
00:30:11,125 --> 00:30:14,525
Speaker 2: something of herself. Age is sort of irrelevant, really, you know.

652
00:30:14,565 --> 00:30:16,645
Speaker 2: And we had a nice dinner and it was very

653
00:30:16,685 --> 00:30:19,485
Speaker 2: slow going. We danced a little bit and you know,

654
00:30:19,485 --> 00:30:21,685
Speaker 2: the some daggy music that she had and everything, and

655
00:30:22,325 --> 00:30:26,245
Speaker 2: it was just very slow and very respectful to her pals.

656
00:30:26,245 --> 00:30:29,045
Speaker 2: When it had passed away and just everything happened in

657
00:30:29,085 --> 00:30:31,525
Speaker 2: the dark, and it was all just very gentle and nice.

658
00:30:31,525 --> 00:30:33,725
Speaker 2: And yeah, I saw her many times after that.

659
00:30:33,805 --> 00:30:37,565
Speaker 1: Actually, you must know a lot about women's bodies. Yeah,

660
00:30:38,285 --> 00:30:40,565
Speaker 1: different ways that they look and respond.

661
00:30:41,005 --> 00:30:44,685
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they're very complex, you know, like women tend

662
00:30:44,685 --> 00:30:47,525
Speaker 2: to some like things a bit harder. One thing I

663
00:30:47,565 --> 00:30:49,845
Speaker 2: know is never do anything hard to start with, and

664
00:30:49,925 --> 00:30:52,245
Speaker 2: use plenty of lube. That's a given. You know, there's

665
00:30:52,245 --> 00:30:54,805
Speaker 2: no shame in loube. I think it should be used

666
00:30:54,805 --> 00:30:57,925
Speaker 2: in all sex that it just enhances it generally. You know.

667
00:30:57,965 --> 00:30:59,965
Speaker 2: As I said before, women like a bit of a tease.

668
00:31:00,005 --> 00:31:02,085
Speaker 2: You don't want to dive into things like that. And

669
00:31:02,165 --> 00:31:05,005
Speaker 2: just always ask for permission before you do anything. And

670
00:31:05,045 --> 00:31:08,245
Speaker 2: if something's working, keep doing it and don't stop, you know.

671
00:31:08,645 --> 00:31:11,725
Speaker 2: If that's Yeah, if you girls are in the zone

672
00:31:11,765 --> 00:31:14,125
Speaker 2: and you're getting there, the worst thing is for your

673
00:31:14,165 --> 00:31:16,525
Speaker 2: minds to flick to something else or to think, oh,

674
00:31:16,565 --> 00:31:18,605
Speaker 2: I'm taking too long, this is going to be annoying him.

675
00:31:18,925 --> 00:31:21,565
Speaker 2: You know, you just reassure them I'm enjoying this. Just

676
00:31:21,645 --> 00:31:23,965
Speaker 2: lock me out, you know, Just do what you need

677
00:31:24,125 --> 00:31:25,925
Speaker 2: and I'll just keep going. Just tell me, you know,

678
00:31:25,965 --> 00:31:27,925
Speaker 2: if you want me to keep going, stop high or

679
00:31:27,925 --> 00:31:28,845
Speaker 2: lower whatever.

680
00:31:29,765 --> 00:31:32,725
Speaker 1: How easy do women find it to give you directions?

681
00:31:33,845 --> 00:31:36,645
Speaker 2: Very difficult, but I prompt it. I don't want to

682
00:31:36,685 --> 00:31:38,845
Speaker 2: talk too much in case you know, I'm in the

683
00:31:38,885 --> 00:31:40,565
Speaker 2: right area, and you can sort of feel if you

684
00:31:40,645 --> 00:31:44,365
Speaker 2: are basically a mouthful well exactly, yeah, yeah, but if

685
00:31:44,405 --> 00:31:46,045
Speaker 2: you do when they're just sitting you can see them

686
00:31:46,085 --> 00:31:48,525
Speaker 2: tensing up and like trying to come, then it's like,

687
00:31:48,525 --> 00:31:50,565
Speaker 2: all right, don't change a thing, because they're getting there.

688
00:31:50,565 --> 00:31:52,805
Speaker 2: They're getting there, So little things like that. You pick

689
00:31:52,885 --> 00:31:54,845
Speaker 2: up little things like that through the job.

690
00:31:55,165 --> 00:31:57,805
Speaker 1: The question that most people would haven't, I've heard you

691
00:31:57,925 --> 00:32:00,525
Speaker 1: ask this a lot, is what about sexual attraction?

692
00:32:01,405 --> 00:32:04,605
Speaker 2: It never really was an issue, to be honest, because,

693
00:32:05,005 --> 00:32:07,645
Speaker 2: as I said it, it's about that mental connection. It's

694
00:32:07,685 --> 00:32:11,925
Speaker 2: about feeling me, feeling wanted and making them feel wanted,

695
00:32:11,925 --> 00:32:15,005
Speaker 2: and that usually got me erect and got me turned on.

696
00:32:15,485 --> 00:32:17,485
Speaker 1: What are women most insecure about?

697
00:32:17,925 --> 00:32:20,805
Speaker 2: Well, their bodies obviously, but which part of their bodies

698
00:32:21,005 --> 00:32:23,005
Speaker 2: just depends on what you know at the time. I

699
00:32:23,045 --> 00:32:26,325
Speaker 2: know older women tend to start looking at their necks

700
00:32:26,325 --> 00:32:28,765
Speaker 2: a lot for some strange reason. You're concerned about getting

701
00:32:28,765 --> 00:32:31,605
Speaker 2: wrinkling next and you put scars on to cover them up.

702
00:32:31,605 --> 00:32:36,405
Speaker 2: But things like that or scars, scars, Yeah, that's often

703
00:32:36,645 --> 00:32:40,325
Speaker 2: something they're concerned about, sagging breasts, you name it. You

704
00:32:40,365 --> 00:32:43,845
Speaker 2: girls find everything possibly define wrong with yourselves as you can.

705
00:32:44,045 --> 00:32:47,725
Speaker 1: How would you reassure someone because it's.

706
00:32:47,605 --> 00:32:52,205
Speaker 2: Very vulnerable, it is, it is. Yeah, I found when

707
00:32:52,565 --> 00:32:55,765
Speaker 2: we were naked, it got to that point. I actually

708
00:32:56,165 --> 00:32:59,365
Speaker 2: gently would kiss the areas that they weren't happy with.

709
00:32:59,565 --> 00:33:01,605
Speaker 2: I would do that very gently because that's obviously a

710
00:33:01,685 --> 00:33:04,005
Speaker 2: very vulnerable thing to do. But I just want to

711
00:33:04,005 --> 00:33:05,725
Speaker 2: reassure them. If they had a bit of a belly,

712
00:33:05,725 --> 00:33:07,965
Speaker 2: then I'd sort of just kiss their belly or you know,

713
00:33:08,045 --> 00:33:09,645
Speaker 2: stroke and just let them know that it was a

714
00:33:09,645 --> 00:33:12,205
Speaker 2: pleasure to be in that area, which it was, you know,

715
00:33:12,245 --> 00:33:15,325
Speaker 2: and if it was something specific and oh, don't look

716
00:33:15,325 --> 00:33:17,365
Speaker 2: at my cellulid or something, it's like, oh, don't be silly,

717
00:33:17,365 --> 00:33:20,045
Speaker 2: everyone's got cellulide and don't worry about it. If you're

718
00:33:20,085 --> 00:33:22,685
Speaker 2: a world weary, beautiful woman that's gone through a lot,

719
00:33:22,725 --> 00:33:26,965
Speaker 2: and it's a turn on, and was it? Yeah, it was,

720
00:33:27,125 --> 00:33:27,805
Speaker 2: it really was.

721
00:33:28,445 --> 00:33:31,285
Speaker 1: So you didn't really have a type, You didn't have

722
00:33:31,285 --> 00:33:33,165
Speaker 1: to like close your eyes and your teeth.

723
00:33:33,845 --> 00:33:36,845
Speaker 2: No. I've got my little sort of little fetishes though,

724
00:33:36,925 --> 00:33:40,845
Speaker 2: like stupid little things like like I like people wearing socks.

725
00:33:42,645 --> 00:33:44,605
Speaker 1: You like them to wear socks because you don't like

726
00:33:44,605 --> 00:33:45,285
Speaker 1: people's feet?

727
00:33:45,485 --> 00:33:49,205
Speaker 2: No, no, I just thought it was cute. I don't know. No, no, yeah,

728
00:33:49,245 --> 00:33:50,685
Speaker 2: I don't know why I mentioned that then. But now

729
00:33:50,725 --> 00:33:53,725
Speaker 2: you've got me talking now, yeah, or wearing like high heels,

730
00:33:53,805 --> 00:33:57,125
Speaker 2: little things, yeah, just little things like that. I don't

731
00:33:57,125 --> 00:33:58,045
Speaker 2: know how you got me onto that.

732
00:33:58,165 --> 00:34:03,845
Speaker 1: So yeah, what about things that are real turnoffs for you?

733
00:34:03,885 --> 00:34:05,125
Speaker 1: How do you get around that?

734
00:34:05,965 --> 00:34:09,205
Speaker 2: Oh? Sometimes you can't. Turnoffs tend to resonate within, so

735
00:34:09,445 --> 00:34:11,565
Speaker 2: tends to be their personalities that are the eternals.

736
00:34:12,005 --> 00:34:16,805
Speaker 1: Can you remember some examples of clients that have just

737
00:34:16,925 --> 00:34:20,325
Speaker 1: done things or said things that have just really shut

738
00:34:20,365 --> 00:34:20,765
Speaker 1: you down.

739
00:34:21,045 --> 00:34:23,085
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mentioned one of them in the book. Actually,

740
00:34:23,125 --> 00:34:25,125
Speaker 2: when a client said to me, you know, I was

741
00:34:25,165 --> 00:34:27,565
Speaker 2: trying to snuggle with her and trying to get into

742
00:34:27,605 --> 00:34:30,165
Speaker 2: that sort of zone in a particularly seedy house that

743
00:34:30,325 --> 00:34:33,405
Speaker 2: smelt really bad. She said, I didn't pay for hugs, babe,

744
00:34:33,405 --> 00:34:36,445
Speaker 2: I paid for dick. And then that was like, oh, okay,

745
00:34:36,445 --> 00:34:38,365
Speaker 2: here we go and then it just went south from

746
00:34:38,365 --> 00:34:40,125
Speaker 2: there sort of thing, and I just felt like a

747
00:34:40,325 --> 00:34:43,325
Speaker 2: like an object and I wrapped it up early. I said, look,

748
00:34:43,365 --> 00:34:44,925
Speaker 2: I think I'd like to get moving soon. So I

749
00:34:44,965 --> 00:34:46,405
Speaker 2: just gave her a refund for the rest of the

750
00:34:46,445 --> 00:34:47,125
Speaker 2: time and left.

751
00:34:47,685 --> 00:34:50,085
Speaker 1: I would have thought that that wouldn't have been completely

752
00:34:50,165 --> 00:34:52,485
Speaker 1: unusual that there would have been not that it's okay,

753
00:34:52,525 --> 00:34:53,965
Speaker 1: but there would have been people.

754
00:34:53,645 --> 00:34:57,045
Speaker 2: Who were like, yeah, just what the physical aspects.

755
00:34:56,685 --> 00:34:59,605
Speaker 1: I just want it paid for it. Yeah, that are

756
00:34:59,685 --> 00:35:04,445
Speaker 1: quite not proprietorial, but like objectifying, which obviously didn't.

757
00:35:04,245 --> 00:35:04,685
Speaker 2: Do it for you.

758
00:35:04,765 --> 00:35:06,285
Speaker 1: But how did you deal with that?

759
00:35:07,045 --> 00:35:08,885
Speaker 2: I suppose I tried to slow it down for my

760
00:35:08,925 --> 00:35:11,845
Speaker 2: own if they were sort of just grabbing at clothes

761
00:35:11,925 --> 00:35:14,725
Speaker 2: and you know, really prompting things to go too fast,

762
00:35:14,725 --> 00:35:17,045
Speaker 2: I'd remember that I'm in control of my own body too,

763
00:35:17,085 --> 00:35:19,685
Speaker 2: I've got my own sort of boundaries as well, so

764
00:35:19,805 --> 00:35:21,525
Speaker 2: I would slow it down and say, how can we

765
00:35:21,565 --> 00:35:24,285
Speaker 2: just talk for a little while, and they'd be like, okay,

766
00:35:25,765 --> 00:35:28,445
Speaker 2: just a bit. Towards the end of my career, it

767
00:35:28,525 --> 00:35:31,045
Speaker 2: was rare because I would have those preworked phone calls

768
00:35:31,205 --> 00:35:33,165
Speaker 2: and I would suss out what I was wanted for

769
00:35:33,205 --> 00:35:35,165
Speaker 2: And if it was just a matter of just going

770
00:35:35,205 --> 00:35:37,685
Speaker 2: in there, pounding away for an hour and then leaving,

771
00:35:37,725 --> 00:35:40,805
Speaker 2: then I'd formulated a nice little text and say, look,

772
00:35:40,845 --> 00:35:42,725
Speaker 2: I think I'm probably not the right escort for you.

773
00:35:42,765 --> 00:35:44,965
Speaker 2: If you'd like me to suggest other people, let me know.

774
00:35:45,005 --> 00:35:48,005
Speaker 1: Sort of thing I want to know about those conversations

775
00:35:48,085 --> 00:35:52,245
Speaker 1: and the clients that you turn down. What are some

776
00:35:52,285 --> 00:35:55,165
Speaker 1: examples of that phone calls that just did not progress.

777
00:35:55,605 --> 00:35:57,965
Speaker 2: It wasn't usually just after the phone call. There might

778
00:35:57,965 --> 00:36:00,925
Speaker 2: have been a few text messages in between, but I

779
00:36:00,965 --> 00:36:04,645
Speaker 2: would sort of very gently and as compassionately as possible,

780
00:36:04,725 --> 00:36:08,445
Speaker 2: sort of let them start knowing that I wasn't interested.

781
00:36:08,565 --> 00:36:11,645
Speaker 1: Sort of but what would make you say that? Like?

782
00:36:11,725 --> 00:36:13,565
Speaker 1: Would it be the way they spoke to you, would

783
00:36:13,605 --> 00:36:16,325
Speaker 1: it be how would those conversations go?

784
00:36:16,685 --> 00:36:16,805
Speaker 2: Like?

785
00:36:16,805 --> 00:36:18,165
Speaker 1: What would you ask them?

786
00:36:18,485 --> 00:36:20,685
Speaker 2: One thing I'd like to know is how many other

787
00:36:20,805 --> 00:36:25,045
Speaker 2: escorts they'd been with, because I found that I don't

788
00:36:25,085 --> 00:36:26,645
Speaker 2: want to sound bad, but I found that a lot

789
00:36:26,725 --> 00:36:29,845
Speaker 2: of the women that had seen a lot did start

790
00:36:29,885 --> 00:36:32,485
Speaker 2: to objectify the guys that they were with, and they'd say, oh,

791
00:36:32,565 --> 00:36:34,325
Speaker 2: you know, I saw so and so in this place,

792
00:36:34,365 --> 00:36:37,365
Speaker 2: And they'd often say mean things about them. There was

793
00:36:37,405 --> 00:36:41,245
Speaker 2: occasions where I saw clients who were using me to

794
00:36:41,325 --> 00:36:45,045
Speaker 2: actually get over previous escorts that had hurt them or

795
00:36:45,085 --> 00:36:48,965
Speaker 2: physically or emotionally as well. Wo yeah, So if that

796
00:36:49,085 --> 00:36:51,045
Speaker 2: was a situation, that'd be fine, But it was sort

797
00:36:51,085 --> 00:36:54,645
Speaker 2: of if I was being employed in a purely physical

798
00:36:54,685 --> 00:36:56,965
Speaker 2: sense and not as a therapeutic sort of sense, I'd

799
00:36:56,965 --> 00:37:00,085
Speaker 2: get that feeling. And I didn't want to waste anyone's time,

800
00:37:00,085 --> 00:37:01,485
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to turn up to a book

801
00:37:01,525 --> 00:37:03,645
Speaker 2: and absolutely petrified that I wouldn't be able to do

802
00:37:03,685 --> 00:37:06,285
Speaker 2: the job. So I think it was far more compassionate

803
00:37:06,325 --> 00:37:08,125
Speaker 2: to just shut it down then and there rather than

804
00:37:08,125 --> 00:37:10,285
Speaker 2: to sort of try and fail.

805
00:37:10,685 --> 00:37:12,805
Speaker 1: So you weren't interested in wamban thank you man?

806
00:37:13,085 --> 00:37:16,405
Speaker 2: No, No, not at all. I wanted far more depth

807
00:37:16,405 --> 00:37:19,445
Speaker 2: than that. Definitely, I wanted to I wanted to help

808
00:37:19,485 --> 00:37:21,125
Speaker 2: as much as I could. I wanted to try and

809
00:37:21,125 --> 00:37:24,165
Speaker 2: help them, mend them. It's not my job to mend anyone.

810
00:37:24,245 --> 00:37:26,405
Speaker 2: They meant themselves. But I wanted to be a stepping

811
00:37:26,445 --> 00:37:29,085
Speaker 2: stone and to make a difference. And that's sort of

812
00:37:29,085 --> 00:37:32,565
Speaker 2: how my career progressed to the point where I started

813
00:37:32,565 --> 00:37:35,805
Speaker 2: seeing very few new clients, and I just saw regular

814
00:37:35,965 --> 00:37:38,245
Speaker 2: you know, like a doctor or a psychiatrist would see

815
00:37:38,245 --> 00:37:40,005
Speaker 2: their clients over a number of years.

816
00:37:40,045 --> 00:37:43,125
Speaker 1: So how does that work when you see someone over

817
00:37:43,205 --> 00:37:46,925
Speaker 1: a number of years. What's the line between that being

818
00:37:46,965 --> 00:37:50,365
Speaker 1: a relationship and that being a transaction.

819
00:37:51,285 --> 00:37:53,685
Speaker 2: It's a fine line. The money is a big factor,

820
00:37:53,725 --> 00:37:57,325
Speaker 2: that's obviously the big barrier. But it was a relationship.

821
00:37:57,405 --> 00:37:58,965
Speaker 2: You know. I had a few clients who I was

822
00:37:59,205 --> 00:38:02,005
Speaker 2: really close with. You know, I went through some horrific

823
00:38:02,045 --> 00:38:05,725
Speaker 2: things that they'd been through with them alongside them unpaid,

824
00:38:05,925 --> 00:38:07,765
Speaker 2: So that was probably my bad and that kind of

825
00:38:07,765 --> 00:38:08,685
Speaker 2: blurred boundaries a.

826
00:38:08,605 --> 00:38:10,205
Speaker 1: Lot, mean unpaid.

827
00:38:10,725 --> 00:38:13,365
Speaker 2: Just I flew up to Brisbane to be with someone

828
00:38:13,365 --> 00:38:16,165
Speaker 2: while she was mediating with her ex husband for nothing,

829
00:38:16,325 --> 00:38:19,445
Speaker 2: just to be company with her. I'd been to hospitals

830
00:38:19,725 --> 00:38:22,285
Speaker 2: when people had been hurt, while they were being examined,

831
00:38:22,365 --> 00:38:22,965
Speaker 2: things like that.

832
00:38:23,445 --> 00:38:26,245
Speaker 1: So you became like friends very much.

833
00:38:26,285 --> 00:38:30,765
Speaker 2: So yeah, like boyfriend and girlfriend. Yeah, And towards the

834
00:38:30,885 --> 00:38:33,445
Speaker 2: end of my career, I recognized that that was actually

835
00:38:33,445 --> 00:38:36,045
Speaker 2: being detrimental to them and I was holding them back

836
00:38:36,165 --> 00:38:39,325
Speaker 2: and in what way? I didn't want anyone to be

837
00:38:39,365 --> 00:38:41,925
Speaker 2: dependent on me for their happiness. And have to pay

838
00:38:41,965 --> 00:38:45,205
Speaker 2: for that, like continually, even though it sounds like an

839
00:38:45,245 --> 00:38:48,205
Speaker 2: oxymoron considering what I did and why I did it.

840
00:38:48,285 --> 00:38:51,445
Speaker 2: But after a while I felt bad taking money for

841
00:38:51,685 --> 00:38:55,085
Speaker 2: something that is just human nature. It should just be kindness.

842
00:38:55,205 --> 00:38:57,605
Speaker 2: So that's where I started to get conflicted later on.

843
00:39:05,685 --> 00:39:08,405
Speaker 1: I imagine that for a lot of women, the idea of

844
00:39:08,445 --> 00:39:11,805
Speaker 1: you falling in love with them is a fantasy or

845
00:39:12,205 --> 00:39:13,085
Speaker 1: maybe a hope.

846
00:39:13,485 --> 00:39:15,405
Speaker 2: Yep, definitely, Yeah, like that.

847
00:39:15,525 --> 00:39:18,085
Speaker 1: One day you'll go, you know what, you don't have

848
00:39:18,165 --> 00:39:18,765
Speaker 1: to pay for this?

849
00:39:19,165 --> 00:39:24,445
Speaker 2: Yeah? Did you have to navigate that all the time? Yeah?

850
00:39:24,485 --> 00:39:25,245
Speaker 2: That was tough?

851
00:39:25,645 --> 00:39:26,445
Speaker 1: How did you do it?

852
00:39:27,405 --> 00:39:29,485
Speaker 2: Because I worked all around the country, that sort of

853
00:39:29,525 --> 00:39:32,245
Speaker 2: helped as well. Like I wouldn't be in specific cities

854
00:39:32,805 --> 00:39:34,685
Speaker 2: at the drop of a hat. Sometimes I would if

855
00:39:34,725 --> 00:39:36,125
Speaker 2: they wanted me to be, if I had nothing on

856
00:39:36,165 --> 00:39:38,525
Speaker 2: that week, I'd just fly up and see them. But

857
00:39:38,565 --> 00:39:41,325
Speaker 2: that was a very hard thing to do, actually, to

858
00:39:41,365 --> 00:39:47,845
Speaker 2: be compassionate and authentic but also professional. It was really hard.

859
00:39:48,325 --> 00:39:48,845
Speaker 1: Boundaries.

860
00:39:49,005 --> 00:39:51,565
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did that badly. I freely admit I didn't

861
00:39:51,565 --> 00:39:53,965
Speaker 2: do boundaries very well and I got too involved a lot,

862
00:39:54,045 --> 00:39:57,125
Speaker 2: But I don't regret it. It's just me. It's just

863
00:39:57,205 --> 00:40:00,925
Speaker 2: how I was, and I don't know that's what they needed.

864
00:40:00,965 --> 00:40:02,325
Speaker 2: And yeah, you're.

865
00:40:02,125 --> 00:40:06,525
Speaker 1: Talking in the book about taking more and more drugs yep,

866
00:40:06,605 --> 00:40:07,285
Speaker 1: to get through it.

867
00:40:07,365 --> 00:40:09,325
Speaker 2: A lot of coke, yeah, a lot of coke. Yeah.

868
00:40:09,925 --> 00:40:13,845
Speaker 1: How did your escalating drug problem affect your ability to

869
00:40:14,365 --> 00:40:15,445
Speaker 1: have sex with people?

870
00:40:16,085 --> 00:40:19,485
Speaker 2: It didn't, Actually, it didn't at all. I wanted to

871
00:40:19,485 --> 00:40:20,925
Speaker 2: do a good job, and I knew if I was

872
00:40:21,005 --> 00:40:25,125
Speaker 2: hungover or high or tweaking or whatever, it was disrespectful

873
00:40:25,125 --> 00:40:27,445
Speaker 2: to the client. Oh, you know, like peeking out of

874
00:40:27,445 --> 00:40:29,125
Speaker 2: your head off. You know, if you've had too many

875
00:40:29,125 --> 00:40:32,485
Speaker 2: lines of coke or whatever, or ND or something like that.

876
00:40:32,525 --> 00:40:34,725
Speaker 2: You know, it's just disrespectful if I go into a

877
00:40:34,805 --> 00:40:36,365
Speaker 2: job like that. And I never did that, like a

878
00:40:36,645 --> 00:40:38,525
Speaker 2: you know, I might have been a little bit you know,

879
00:40:38,565 --> 00:40:40,405
Speaker 2: had a line maybe before, just if I was a

880
00:40:40,405 --> 00:40:42,445
Speaker 2: little bit tired, But I was always present for the

881
00:40:42,445 --> 00:40:44,445
Speaker 2: client that I was with. You know, if I had

882
00:40:44,485 --> 00:40:46,925
Speaker 2: time off, or if I was by myself feeling particularly

883
00:40:47,005 --> 00:40:49,925
Speaker 2: bad or depressed, then I'd start racking up lines and

884
00:40:50,005 --> 00:40:52,925
Speaker 2: just sort of listening to music and watching the clock

885
00:40:53,005 --> 00:40:54,485
Speaker 2: go before we got out of lockdowns.

886
00:40:54,645 --> 00:40:55,725
Speaker 1: How did you get past it?

887
00:40:56,365 --> 00:40:58,805
Speaker 2: Just moderation. I think when you're an addict, you're always

888
00:40:58,845 --> 00:41:01,125
Speaker 2: an addict. I don't think you can ever really go

889
00:41:01,365 --> 00:41:06,805
Speaker 2: completely stone cold sober. But if you give yourself a

890
00:41:06,885 --> 00:41:09,725
Speaker 2: reward for something well done, you know, a small amount

891
00:41:09,765 --> 00:41:11,525
Speaker 2: of something, or like having a beer at the end

892
00:41:11,525 --> 00:41:12,445
Speaker 2: of the day sort of things.

893
00:41:12,525 --> 00:41:14,205
Speaker 1: So you were able to pull it back from the brink.

894
00:41:14,365 --> 00:41:16,805
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, Yeah, Yeah, for sure. I knew it was

895
00:41:16,845 --> 00:41:20,205
Speaker 2: a problem. My nose was feeling terrible and I was

896
00:41:20,565 --> 00:41:22,725
Speaker 2: waking up at sort of one in the afternoon. It

897
00:41:22,765 --> 00:41:25,645
Speaker 2: was just really unhealthy, and I had a son to

898
00:41:25,685 --> 00:41:28,005
Speaker 2: think about as well. You know, I couldn't just completely

899
00:41:28,085 --> 00:41:30,805
Speaker 2: just shut down my whole family and I had to

900
00:41:30,805 --> 00:41:32,965
Speaker 2: grow up. And it was only sort of for a

901
00:41:32,965 --> 00:41:35,405
Speaker 2: few months, but it was just a few months of

902
00:41:35,485 --> 00:41:38,685
Speaker 2: just complete indulgence, just you know, I eventually thought, right,

903
00:41:38,965 --> 00:41:41,965
Speaker 2: enough's enough, you know, every now and then, okay, whatever,

904
00:41:42,285 --> 00:41:44,525
Speaker 2: I'm not an angel, you know, we've all got our problems.

905
00:41:44,525 --> 00:41:46,885
Speaker 2: But I pulled it back, which was good.

906
00:41:46,925 --> 00:41:50,005
Speaker 1: How long after you started escorting did your marriage end?

907
00:41:51,285 --> 00:41:54,885
Speaker 2: It probably lasted about I think eight or nine months.

908
00:41:54,885 --> 00:41:57,645
Speaker 2: It was it was a mutual decision. We both knew

909
00:41:57,645 --> 00:42:00,005
Speaker 2: that there was something wrong. It wasn't a matter of

910
00:42:00,085 --> 00:42:02,285
Speaker 2: her just booting me out of the house or me

911
00:42:02,445 --> 00:42:04,605
Speaker 2: just walking out. It was sort of we'd sort of

912
00:42:04,605 --> 00:42:08,405
Speaker 2: alluded to things going wrong, and then one day she said,

913
00:42:08,445 --> 00:42:10,565
Speaker 2: I think it's time you moved doubt and I said, yep,

914
00:42:10,685 --> 00:42:12,805
Speaker 2: I think you're probably right. You know, And it's such

915
00:42:12,845 --> 00:42:16,845
Speaker 2: a daunting experience. It's like waiting for an impending amputation

916
00:42:17,045 --> 00:42:18,965
Speaker 2: or something. You know, you know you're going to be lonely.

917
00:42:19,085 --> 00:42:21,085
Speaker 2: You know you're going to be by yourself. I'm not

918
00:42:21,125 --> 00:42:23,565
Speaker 2: going to see my boy every day. It's going to

919
00:42:23,565 --> 00:42:26,365
Speaker 2: be two people in that house rather than three. But

920
00:42:26,445 --> 00:42:29,605
Speaker 2: it ended as well as it possibly could, which is

921
00:42:29,645 --> 00:42:30,685
Speaker 2: why we're friends today.

922
00:42:31,125 --> 00:42:33,485
Speaker 1: I know it's simplistic looking for one reason, but do

923
00:42:33,565 --> 00:42:37,045
Speaker 1: you think that deciding to open your marriage and then

924
00:42:37,085 --> 00:42:39,325
Speaker 1: become an escort, do you think that was the beginning

925
00:42:39,325 --> 00:42:39,765
Speaker 1: of the end?

926
00:42:40,325 --> 00:42:42,045
Speaker 2: I think it would have ended anyway, to be honest,

927
00:42:42,125 --> 00:42:46,165
Speaker 2: I think I was never the sensible, nine to five,

928
00:42:46,245 --> 00:42:50,805
Speaker 2: responsible sort of person that she wanted and she deserved.

929
00:42:51,085 --> 00:42:54,285
Speaker 1: She gave it a red hot crack, she did, and encouraging.

930
00:42:54,005 --> 00:42:56,405
Speaker 2: Yeah she did, she did. But you know, I spent

931
00:42:56,485 --> 00:42:59,165
Speaker 2: a lot of many, many hours wandering around parks with

932
00:42:59,245 --> 00:43:02,525
Speaker 2: my son attached to my chest, absolutely bored, shitless, going

933
00:43:02,565 --> 00:43:04,965
Speaker 2: out of my mind, like trying to. You know, as

934
00:43:04,965 --> 00:43:08,285
Speaker 2: a mother, you go insane. You literally can stare at

935
00:43:08,325 --> 00:43:10,005
Speaker 2: a wall and just look at your watch and think,

936
00:43:10,365 --> 00:43:12,285
Speaker 2: oh god, four hours to go. You know when is

937
00:43:12,325 --> 00:43:12,965
Speaker 2: she getting home?

938
00:43:13,005 --> 00:43:13,205
Speaker 1: You know?

939
00:43:13,285 --> 00:43:15,845
Speaker 2: EO nuts. So I feel like I put in some

940
00:43:15,885 --> 00:43:18,485
Speaker 2: hard yards as well. Absolutely yeah, as I stay at

941
00:43:18,525 --> 00:43:20,445
Speaker 2: home dad. It was really tough.

942
00:43:20,965 --> 00:43:23,485
Speaker 1: How much did you cost? And how do you decide

943
00:43:23,485 --> 00:43:24,805
Speaker 1: how much to charge?

944
00:43:25,685 --> 00:43:28,325
Speaker 2: Originally I started at three hundred and an hour I

945
00:43:28,445 --> 00:43:31,085
Speaker 2: ended up. My last rates before I finished up was

946
00:43:31,165 --> 00:43:33,845
Speaker 2: two hours for a thousand. Overnight was five and a

947
00:43:33,885 --> 00:43:36,285
Speaker 2: half thousand that went up. You know, you could do

948
00:43:36,325 --> 00:43:38,805
Speaker 2: a week for fifteen or twenty grand or something from memory.

949
00:43:38,925 --> 00:43:41,125
Speaker 2: But you just know your worth. You can see what's

950
00:43:41,165 --> 00:43:46,005
Speaker 2: out there and the effort you put in and what

951
00:43:46,125 --> 00:43:48,325
Speaker 2: I was happy to walk away with and what I

952
00:43:48,405 --> 00:43:51,885
Speaker 2: wasn't happy to walk away with. It sounds greedy, and

953
00:43:51,965 --> 00:43:55,085
Speaker 2: towards the end it did feel greedy, but you just

954
00:43:55,125 --> 00:43:56,845
Speaker 2: need to know your worth and what you give to

955
00:43:56,885 --> 00:43:58,845
Speaker 2: the person you're with and the toll that it takes.

956
00:43:59,365 --> 00:44:02,245
Speaker 2: So I would just occasionally, you know, every year or so,

957
00:44:02,325 --> 00:44:04,405
Speaker 2: up my rates a little bit more. Just to take

958
00:44:04,445 --> 00:44:05,205
Speaker 2: that into account.

959
00:44:05,565 --> 00:44:08,485
Speaker 1: What sort of women have that kind of money and

960
00:44:08,565 --> 00:44:12,005
Speaker 1: want to spend it on an escort, because you would imagine,

961
00:44:12,045 --> 00:44:15,765
Speaker 1: is it really rich ladies. There was one woman who

962
00:44:15,845 --> 00:44:17,365
Speaker 1: was a cleaner who you saw.

963
00:44:17,525 --> 00:44:20,725
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone all types. It's like saving for a holiday,

964
00:44:20,925 --> 00:44:23,085
Speaker 2: you know. Ladies would say I've been saving up to

965
00:44:23,125 --> 00:44:26,125
Speaker 2: see you for six months. Or not necessarily rich at all.

966
00:44:26,205 --> 00:44:28,325
Speaker 2: You know, the wealthier ones could see me more often,

967
00:44:28,405 --> 00:44:32,165
Speaker 2: for sure, sometimes married to wealthy people or wealthy in

968
00:44:32,165 --> 00:44:36,125
Speaker 2: their own right, company owners. Others were just single women

969
00:44:36,205 --> 00:44:38,205
Speaker 2: that were just on a good income and had a

970
00:44:38,245 --> 00:44:40,845
Speaker 2: low mortgage so they had plenty of expendable income. That

971
00:44:40,965 --> 00:44:44,005
Speaker 2: sort of thing. It's definitely not something that's just strictly

972
00:44:44,165 --> 00:44:45,845
Speaker 2: restricted to rich people, that's for sure.

973
00:44:46,005 --> 00:44:47,845
Speaker 1: One woman was living at home with her mum.

974
00:44:48,365 --> 00:44:51,885
Speaker 2: She was wasn't It was a little bit awkward, you

975
00:44:51,885 --> 00:44:55,325
Speaker 2: could say that what happened. She was an accountant from memory,

976
00:44:55,405 --> 00:44:59,725
Speaker 2: and she was very prim and proper and very definite

977
00:44:59,765 --> 00:45:01,765
Speaker 2: on the time that I was to be there, and

978
00:45:01,845 --> 00:45:04,725
Speaker 2: I was thinking, okay, fair enough, yep. At seven o'clock.

979
00:45:04,725 --> 00:45:06,885
Speaker 2: I heard you the first time. It's all right. And

980
00:45:06,925 --> 00:45:09,645
Speaker 2: then I get there and it was this odd town house,

981
00:45:09,685 --> 00:45:12,525
Speaker 2: assisted living, this sort of place. I was like, well,

982
00:45:12,565 --> 00:45:14,605
Speaker 2: this is a bit strange. And then I walked into

983
00:45:14,605 --> 00:45:16,725
Speaker 2: the house and there's all this old school furniture and

984
00:45:16,765 --> 00:45:18,965
Speaker 2: I think, hang on, what's this all about? And then

985
00:45:19,005 --> 00:45:20,805
Speaker 2: she showed me her bedroom and said, oh, I got

986
00:45:20,805 --> 00:45:22,965
Speaker 2: the little bedroom my house. Make got the bigger one.

987
00:45:23,605 --> 00:45:25,885
Speaker 2: And I started wondering at that point, to be honest,

988
00:45:25,925 --> 00:45:29,245
Speaker 2: but anyway, we kept going and then there was a

989
00:45:29,285 --> 00:45:32,685
Speaker 2: rattle of keys in the in the door, and she

990
00:45:32,925 --> 00:45:36,365
Speaker 2: just chat herself completely and was just you know, we

991
00:45:36,445 --> 00:45:39,005
Speaker 2: had a great time up until then. I actually laughed,

992
00:45:39,005 --> 00:45:40,645
Speaker 2: to be honest, like it was just so funny. I

993
00:45:40,645 --> 00:45:42,645
Speaker 2: didn't want to be mean to her. But next thing,

994
00:45:42,685 --> 00:45:44,525
Speaker 2: you know, you know, I had some undies on at least,

995
00:45:44,565 --> 00:45:46,565
Speaker 2: and then this woman pops her head around and going

996
00:45:46,605 --> 00:45:49,125
Speaker 2: oh hello, duney oh, oh hello, Hi, how are you?

997
00:45:49,485 --> 00:45:53,805
Speaker 2: And I was like, I was like, oh hi. She

998
00:45:53,925 --> 00:45:56,205
Speaker 2: just sort of yeah. She just walked down the corridor,

999
00:45:56,245 --> 00:45:57,885
Speaker 2: but I could still here in the house, and it

1000
00:45:57,925 --> 00:46:00,125
Speaker 2: was just I didn't know how to get out of it. Fortunately,

1001
00:46:00,165 --> 00:46:04,325
Speaker 2: I'd had taken payment earlier, and the poor client was

1002
00:46:04,365 --> 00:46:07,925
Speaker 2: just absolutely mortified. Just it was just, yeah, it was

1003
00:46:07,965 --> 00:46:12,045
Speaker 2: quite funny. In hindes, I never saw it again that

1004
00:46:12,125 --> 00:46:13,405
Speaker 2: it was fun up until that point.

1005
00:46:13,485 --> 00:46:16,165
Speaker 1: It was good something that happened that wasn't a chuckle

1006
00:46:16,205 --> 00:46:19,125
Speaker 1: at all. A lot of sex workers, obviously, particularly female

1007
00:46:19,165 --> 00:46:23,805
Speaker 1: sex workers, have issues around consent. Sexual assault not something

1008
00:46:23,845 --> 00:46:25,485
Speaker 1: that you would have thought would have been an issue

1009
00:46:25,485 --> 00:46:28,805
Speaker 1: for you. You're a big strapping man. But you did

1010
00:46:28,845 --> 00:46:33,725
Speaker 1: have an experience with a client that went bad. Yeah, yeh,

1011
00:46:33,765 --> 00:46:35,285
Speaker 1: can you explain how that happened.

1012
00:46:35,325 --> 00:46:37,125
Speaker 2: I've actually had a couple, but the one in the

1013
00:46:37,365 --> 00:46:40,285
Speaker 2: chapter that I mentioned, I believe she did have some

1014
00:46:40,325 --> 00:46:42,685
Speaker 2: sort of a man hate thing going I don't know what.

1015
00:46:42,725 --> 00:46:45,045
Speaker 2: It was, like a power sort of imbalance go on

1016
00:46:45,325 --> 00:46:48,045
Speaker 2: that she wanted to address. So I was going down

1017
00:46:48,085 --> 00:46:51,085
Speaker 2: on her and she just wrapped her thighs around my

1018
00:46:51,245 --> 00:46:54,565
Speaker 2: neck and like really squeezed really hard and pushed my

1019
00:46:54,685 --> 00:46:58,325
Speaker 2: head in between onto her even harder, so I literally

1020
00:46:58,365 --> 00:47:02,165
Speaker 2: couldn't breathe. She sort of started changing and getting a

1021
00:47:02,165 --> 00:47:04,925
Speaker 2: bit weird and had this sort of evil, kinky sort

1022
00:47:04,925 --> 00:47:06,925
Speaker 2: of like yeah you like that, yeah, yeah, yeah, and

1023
00:47:07,005 --> 00:47:08,525
Speaker 2: I was just like, hang on a minute, this is

1024
00:47:08,685 --> 00:47:10,725
Speaker 2: not going in the right direction at all. I mean,

1025
00:47:11,165 --> 00:47:12,965
Speaker 2: I didn't fear for my life or anything, but I

1026
00:47:13,045 --> 00:47:16,805
Speaker 2: was just really uncomfortable. I couldn't breathe. So I just

1027
00:47:16,965 --> 00:47:19,325
Speaker 2: wrenched her legs around, flipped her over, and just pulled

1028
00:47:19,325 --> 00:47:22,005
Speaker 2: her off me. Now that didn't barrel her out, I said, well,

1029
00:47:22,085 --> 00:47:23,565
Speaker 2: I kind of did. I just said, what the fuck

1030
00:47:23,645 --> 00:47:24,245
Speaker 2: was all that about?

1031
00:47:24,325 --> 00:47:25,245
Speaker 1: And what did she say?

1032
00:47:25,845 --> 00:47:28,125
Speaker 2: She was like, oh, sorry, wasn't that cool, babe? Sorry,

1033
00:47:28,165 --> 00:47:30,765
Speaker 2: you know, acting kind of all stupid about it. I

1034
00:47:30,885 --> 00:47:32,845
Speaker 2: was not happy at that at all. And she was like,

1035
00:47:32,885 --> 00:47:34,445
Speaker 2: oh can I'd say, okay, come back to bed, and

1036
00:47:34,445 --> 00:47:35,925
Speaker 2: I was like, nah, I'm gone, I'm out of here.

1037
00:47:35,965 --> 00:47:38,085
Speaker 2: You've blown it. So I just didn't give a reef.

1038
00:47:38,085 --> 00:47:40,765
Speaker 2: I didn't give anything, just walked. So I was furious

1039
00:47:40,805 --> 00:47:43,965
Speaker 2: at that one. But that's a rarity, that really is.

1040
00:47:44,205 --> 00:47:47,405
Speaker 2: I've heard of a situation of a male escort being

1041
00:47:47,685 --> 00:47:51,285
Speaker 2: stabbed by a partner that's walked in before, but that's

1042
00:47:51,325 --> 00:47:53,325
Speaker 2: a very very rare one as well. I haven't heard

1043
00:47:53,365 --> 00:47:55,685
Speaker 2: many bad stories for the guys. It's the girls that

1044
00:47:56,365 --> 00:48:00,045
Speaker 2: they really put themselves in some pretty precarious situations, and

1045
00:48:00,285 --> 00:48:02,925
Speaker 2: they have to be really careful with their screening, and

1046
00:48:02,965 --> 00:48:04,885
Speaker 2: you get clients that get all annoyed at all the

1047
00:48:04,965 --> 00:48:07,765
Speaker 2: questions they've got to answer or having to provide id

1048
00:48:08,205 --> 00:48:10,805
Speaker 2: and to those guys, will tough shit do it because

1049
00:48:10,845 --> 00:48:12,645
Speaker 2: that's part of the job. If you want to meet

1050
00:48:12,685 --> 00:48:14,725
Speaker 2: these wonderful women, then that's what you got to do,

1051
00:48:14,885 --> 00:48:16,685
Speaker 2: so otherwise go somewhere else.

1052
00:48:16,685 --> 00:48:20,205
Speaker 1: You know. This wasn't the end of my conversation with Mitch.

1053
00:48:20,485 --> 00:48:23,525
Speaker 1: There is a second part to this episode because I

1054
00:48:23,605 --> 00:48:25,725
Speaker 1: wanted to ask him if he ever fell in love

1055
00:48:26,005 --> 00:48:29,125
Speaker 1: with any of the women who paid him for sex,

1056
00:48:29,245 --> 00:48:32,845
Speaker 1: and the answer is actually yes. So he talks about that,

1057
00:48:33,085 --> 00:48:35,805
Speaker 1: and he also spoke about one of the most moving

1058
00:48:36,325 --> 00:48:38,605
Speaker 1: stories from his book and his life and his time

1059
00:48:38,645 --> 00:48:41,165
Speaker 1: as a male escort, which was his experience with a

1060
00:48:41,205 --> 00:48:46,685
Speaker 1: client called Sam who had Alzheimer's and made a decision

1061
00:48:46,845 --> 00:48:49,885
Speaker 1: before things got really bad and she wasn't able to

1062
00:48:49,965 --> 00:48:54,325
Speaker 1: consent anymore that she wanted an ongoing relationship with Mitch,

1063
00:48:54,485 --> 00:48:57,605
Speaker 1: and that really really affected him. Here's a little bit

1064
00:48:57,805 --> 00:48:59,045
Speaker 1: of what he said.

1065
00:48:58,965 --> 00:49:01,085
Speaker 2: When I actually couldn't get it up for I couldn't

1066
00:49:01,085 --> 00:49:03,885
Speaker 2: get it wrecked. I want you hard. Why aren't you hard?

1067
00:49:03,965 --> 00:49:05,565
Speaker 2: Let's fuck. I want to be hard, you know. And

1068
00:49:05,605 --> 00:49:07,125
Speaker 2: it was quite confronting, and.

1069
00:49:07,045 --> 00:49:09,845
Speaker 1: I also asked him about the last time he was

1070
00:49:09,885 --> 00:49:12,485
Speaker 1: paid for sex and why, in fact, it was the

1071
00:49:12,605 --> 00:49:15,165
Speaker 1: last time. You can listen to that episode right now

1072
00:49:15,205 --> 00:49:17,485
Speaker 1: by clicking on the link in the show notes. The

1073
00:49:17,525 --> 00:49:20,725
Speaker 1: executive producer of No Filter is Kimberly Bradish, with sound

1074
00:49:20,765 --> 00:49:25,125
Speaker 1: production by Mattie Juannu. Remember, you can get Mitch's book

1075
00:49:25,205 --> 00:49:27,565
Speaker 1: called Time for Her also fire a link in the

1076
00:49:27,605 --> 00:49:28,165
Speaker 1: show notes