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Speaker 1: When Michelle Steck met Kevin East at a Perth shopping

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Speaker 1: center in nineteen eighty nine, he seemed like a successful,

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Speaker 1: put together gentleman. At nineteen, Michelle was just starting her

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Speaker 1: career after studying and traveling, and this chance encounter with

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Speaker 1: a charming older man left her smitten. But that meeting

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Speaker 1: would set her on a path towards a tragedy that

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Speaker 1: would change her life forever. Michelle had always wanted children,

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Speaker 1: and when she fell pregnant earlier in their relationship, she

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Speaker 1: was excited to become a mum. But even back then,

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Speaker 1: East's true nature had begun to emerge. We didn't use

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Speaker 1: the term coercive control in the early nineteen nineties, but

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what Michelle was experiencing. East was jealous, quick

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Speaker 1: to anger, and constantly accused her of affairs that never happened.

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Speaker 1: He slowly and methodically cut her off from her friends

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Speaker 1: and family, making it very clear that they were not

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Speaker 1: welcome and that she needed his permission to go anywhere.

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Speaker 1: He tracked her every move, questioned her constantly, and controlled

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Speaker 1: all their finances, forcing Michelle to ask for money for

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Speaker 1: even the smallest of things. When the abuse turned violent,

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Speaker 1: She tried to leave, but like many men who see

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Speaker 1: women as their property, East pulled her back with promises

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Speaker 1: of change. They had another child, a little boy, Wesley,

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Speaker 1: but by then Michelle's situation had become even more dangerous. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: despite all the risk, she knew she had to go.

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Speaker 1: What followed in the weeks and months after she left

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Speaker 1: would read like a horror film, stalking, spying, and the

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Speaker 1: unraveling of a man furious that he no longer had control.

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Speaker 1: And then Kevin East did something only a very small

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Speaker 1: extreme group of domestic violence perpetrators, usually men, have ever

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Speaker 1: done to punish a partner who leaves. It's called retaliatory philocide.

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Speaker 1: Leave a vulnerable three year old girl at the mercy

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Speaker 1: of a violent father determined to use her as a

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Speaker 1: weapon against her mother. I'm Claire Murphy and this is

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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations, a Muma Mere podcast exploring the world's

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Speaker 1: most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know

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Speaker 1: the most about them. You're going to pay for your

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Speaker 1: actions for a long time. That's what little Kelly East's

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Speaker 1: father said to her mother Michelle, when she made it

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Speaker 1: clear she would not return to their violent and controlling relationship.

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Speaker 1: She had no idea just how true.

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Speaker 2: Those words would be.

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Speaker 1: Motivated by spite, Kevin East would commit an act that

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Speaker 1: would inflict a lifetime of grief and suffering on Michelle.

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Speaker 1: Statistic show that in Australia, one woman a week is

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Speaker 1: killed in domestic violence. Statistic show that in Australia, one

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Speaker 1: woman a week is killed in a situation of domestic violence,

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Speaker 1: and data from a twelve year study found one child

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Speaker 1: is killed every two weeks by a biological parent or stepparent.

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Speaker 1: The most dangerous day for children in cases of retaliatory

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Speaker 1: philocide is a Sunday, the day dads return them to

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Speaker 1: their mothers after access visits. And that's where Michelle Steck

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Speaker 1: found herself, waiting for Kevin East to return her daughter

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Speaker 1: from a weekend visit, waiting for a little girl who would.

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Speaker 2: Never come home.

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Speaker 1: Just before you hear from Michelle, we want to make

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Speaker 1: it clear that this conversation discusses domestic violence and suicide,

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Speaker 1: Michelle joins us. Now, Michelle, tell me about Kelly.

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Speaker 2: What was she like?

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Speaker 3: She was really funny, and as she grew up she

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Speaker 3: was more like a little butterfly. She just was a

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Speaker 3: sponge of life, and I guess in our short time

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Speaker 3: together we really did squeeze a lot of things in.

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Speaker 2: Before she was two and a half.

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Speaker 3: She knew all a shape, she knew what they were were,

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Speaker 3: she knew simple mathematic equations. And this sounds ridiculous, but

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Speaker 3: it's true. She was walking at nine months. She was

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Speaker 3: always an exploring child. She was never a person that

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Speaker 3: you could hold back, not even when we went to

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Speaker 3: visit things. When she was to you know, big pelicans

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Speaker 3: were not a big problem for her.

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Speaker 2: You know, she wanted to go and be part of them,

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Speaker 2: and I.

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Speaker 3: Tried to say no, so she bit my hand. That

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Speaker 3: was the kind of child she was.

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Speaker 2: She was always, always the explorer, always into life. Sounds

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Speaker 2: like she had a bit of a sassy attitude too,

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Speaker 2: and she did.

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Speaker 3: She did, And she had a passion for drawing on wolves.

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Speaker 3: She would draw on wolves, like as soon as there

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Speaker 3: was a pen or a text or anything a kid

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Speaker 3: you not, you can go and hang out washing.

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Speaker 2: Before you know, there she was drawing on walls.

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Speaker 1: So, of course, during the lead up to Kelly's arrival,

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Speaker 1: during your pregnancy, your relationship with your then partner Kevin

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Speaker 1: East is already starting to show signs of being a

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Speaker 1: domestic violence situation. For those of us who've never experienced

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Speaker 1: domestic violence, do you recognize in that moment when it's happening,

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Speaker 1: that that is domestic violence and it is happening to me?

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Speaker 1: Or is that something that hits you in hindsight? Is

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Speaker 1: there a moment you think, oh my gosh, this is

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Speaker 1: what's really happening.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, it's a very slow creep. It's a

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Speaker 3: very very slow creep. It starts off by, you know,

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Speaker 3: the care factor. You think, Wow, this guy's really caring

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Speaker 3: because he rings every day, sees how you are, sees

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Speaker 3: what's going on in the house, and all these kinds

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Speaker 3: of things are just things of what you believe is

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Speaker 3: a caring nature.

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Speaker 2: You see. I worked up until I was only a few.

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Speaker 3: Weeks out of delivery, so a lot of the things

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Speaker 3: were still very much situation as usual, eating out, both

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Speaker 3: working to the calls, you know, two homes, one rental.

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Speaker 3: He was professional, so was I in a way as

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Speaker 3: a secretary. And I didn't notice it, really, I didn't

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Speaker 3: notice it then. It wasn't until after Kelly was born,

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Speaker 3: when she was six weeks it started to change and

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Speaker 3: it changed very fast and very dramatically. It started to

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Speaker 3: be more financial orientated. First thing to go was my vehicle,

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Speaker 3: because even though I owned.

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Speaker 2: It, it was just extra cash that we could have.

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Speaker 3: Then after that six week period, it started to take

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Speaker 3: a turn because he wanted me to go back to work,

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Speaker 3: and I said, no, bloody ay am I going back

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Speaker 3: to work when my child is so young. And there

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Speaker 3: are some professionals who choose to do that, but I'm

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Speaker 3: just not one of them.

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Speaker 2: It was just terrible.

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Speaker 3: He assumed control of who could visit, and it really

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Speaker 3: did stress me out at the time. But you just

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Speaker 3: go with the flow kind of thing to not make

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Speaker 3: it very obvious, even though some people in your family

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Speaker 3: become offended. And then people had to ring and give

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Speaker 3: advance notice to come to the house. Even when my

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Speaker 3: mom came to visit, it was highly offensive, you know,

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Speaker 3: for me and her, that he would request that she

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Speaker 3: would have to give us advance warning that she was

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Speaker 3: coming to rob This is.

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Speaker 2: My mom, This is my mom.

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Speaker 3: My Nnner of eighty years old, came over to stay

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Speaker 3: with us, and she left. The first night she left,

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Speaker 3: she said, if you take my advice, you'd get the

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Speaker 3: bloody hell out of here.

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Speaker 2: Now he's no good. He's no good.

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Speaker 1: She told me that you did leave Kevin that first

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Speaker 1: time when Kelly was still quite young. What was that

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Speaker 1: final straw? After all of this stuff is bubbling and boiling,

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Speaker 1: and he's more controlling, and we have terminology for that now,

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Speaker 1: coercive control, But that wasn't a in the nineties. So

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Speaker 1: he's monitoring all your movements, he's monitoring who you can

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Speaker 1: and can't see, he's monitoring the finances. But what finally

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Speaker 1: pushed you to leave that first time?

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Speaker 3: What was the straw mister Nasko to everyone else? Wasn't

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Speaker 3: mister nask behind the scenes? And I got sick and

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Speaker 3: tie of being the presentation that he wanted me to

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Speaker 3: be and not being me. Slowly but slowly, I started

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Speaker 3: to go away from who I really really was, and

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Speaker 3: so I planned it.

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Speaker 2: I did plan it.

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Speaker 3: I knew that I only had a certain amount of

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Speaker 3: time before he would call, so I had to make

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Speaker 3: sure those scenes went to work. I was quickly packing things,

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Speaker 3: getting my things together, and I went to my mom's.

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Speaker 2: And since I got to my mom's.

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Speaker 3: Because I wasn't at home at the allowable time, they

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Speaker 3: were all in a driveway, my auntie and her panicking.

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Speaker 2: I'll go, well, what's he going to do about it?

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Speaker 2: I'm here? And I never really revealed the truth anyway.

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Speaker 3: I never revealed because I at that point still very private,

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Speaker 3: and even though people could see that, just thought he

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Speaker 3: was an arrogant sod and they never really saw the truth.

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Speaker 2: No one did.

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Speaker 3: He was very careful about he betrayed himself, very very careful,

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Speaker 3: and even so much so that even when he came

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Speaker 3: down he was so apologetic and things like that. And

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Speaker 3: the truth is when I got home, things were far

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Speaker 3: more escalated again and far worse.

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Speaker 1: So while all of this is going on, Kelly's fast growing,

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Speaker 1: and you go on to have a second child with Kevin,

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Speaker 1: little Wesley, what kind of dad is he like during

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Speaker 1: all of this? Is he different to them than the

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Speaker 1: way he's treating you.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, he was always trying to be an attentive farmer,

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Speaker 3: but he worked long hours. He was an electronics engineering,

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Speaker 3: a computer programmer. He used to bring a big suitcase

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Speaker 3: home and in that was a telephone and a computer

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Speaker 3: system that could tap into the government networks. So he

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Speaker 3: was always on call or being part of that. And

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Speaker 3: he was always a person who looked after himself, went

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Speaker 3: to the gym, very strict with his diet, very much

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Speaker 3: obsessed with that.

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Speaker 2: He was.

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Speaker 3: Really just all for himself. Even though he acted on

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Speaker 3: the outward sense that he was for you know, family,

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Speaker 3: he wasn't. He was very selfish. So he would just

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Speaker 3: stay longer at the gym and use excusive work and

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Speaker 3: all these sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: So by the time he'd get home.

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Speaker 3: These days, the kids were already asleep anyhow, so it

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Speaker 3: was only sort of weekends that he would really see them,

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Speaker 3: and even then he was busy doing his own thing.

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Speaker 1: And what was your relationship like with him at this point?

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Speaker 3: So when it came to Kevin, it was always on eggshells.

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Speaker 3: By this point, you just couldn't piss him off because

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Speaker 3: otherwise it was just not worse your trouble.

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Speaker 2: You were in for it.

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Speaker 3: And it just got more and more aggressive, even to

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Speaker 3: the stupid point of going shopping.

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Speaker 2: You go shopping while he's at work because you have.

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Speaker 3: To get bread or milk or eggs or something for

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Speaker 3: the kids, or taken to the doctor or whatever. A

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Speaker 3: simple little thing becomes so so difficult, and you check in.

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Speaker 3: He'd checking with a phone called checking when you get back.

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Speaker 3: Then I didn't realize he was checking my kilometers? Was

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Speaker 3: that allowable distance? Because one day I went to visit

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Speaker 3: my sister in Subiaco.

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Speaker 2: Why did you get it?

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Speaker 3: Oh, because my sister really needed me at the time

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Speaker 3: and we just wanted to have chat. Well, you didn't

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Speaker 3: confirm with me first. You didn't say you were going there.

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Speaker 3: Why didn't you tell me you were going there? I

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Speaker 3: didn't know. My whole day had to be confirmed. This

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Speaker 3: is how ridiculous it got after the break.

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Speaker 1: Michelle shares the moment she realized she had to pack

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Speaker 1: up in a skier situation. Michelle, can you explain what

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Speaker 1: happened when you did finally realize no, I have to

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Speaker 1: get away from this guy, and you decide to pack

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Speaker 1: up and go for that second time?

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Speaker 2: What happened?

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Speaker 3: I made the mistake of telling him, didn't I That

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Speaker 3: was the night that That was the night that he

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Speaker 3: tied me up, started slapping me around. The kids were screaming.

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Speaker 3: I should never have told him. I should have just

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Speaker 3: done what I did before, just left during the day

224
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Speaker 3: when he was at work and said nothing.

225
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Speaker 2: That would have been easier. So I made that mistake.

226
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Speaker 2: In any way.

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Speaker 3: A few hours later he came through senses, untied me

228
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Speaker 3: and said, I'll help you leave. I thought, well, he

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Speaker 3: probably knew at this point that I would start to

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Speaker 3: say something or start to do something because I'd had enough,

231
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:08,480
Speaker 3: and he probably knew that. But once I got to

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Speaker 3: my mom's done had a little house for myself, and

233
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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, it was like when I moved

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00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,360
Speaker 3: that sort of half stepping stone in Perth. He thought

235
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Speaker 3: he could come when it suited him. He tried to

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Speaker 3: be consistent in my life. Still, he tried to act

237
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Speaker 3: like he was being nice. Still it was still up

238
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Speaker 3: to his bad habits, and eventually it came to buying gifts,

239
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Speaker 3: buying a puppy, buying the kids over the top stuff

240
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Speaker 3: of toys until such time as I said, no, this

241
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 3: is not your house. This is my house. You have

242
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Speaker 3: to stop. You can't come here anymore. And that's when

243
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 3: I escalated again. It just got out of control. The

244
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Speaker 3: problem that I had is back then.

245
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,880
Speaker 2: One was listening. After it escalated even worse because.

246
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 3: After that he would then write stupid letters that were

247
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:16,080
Speaker 3: really nasty. He would be drunk coming up to the

248
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,840
Speaker 3: doorstep telling me he was going to slit his wrists

249
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,680
Speaker 3: and wrap himself in plastic. Then I'd get a letter

250
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 3: to the last Will and Testament. His sister, who was

251
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 3: nine months pregnant, got a letter that said, you're replacing

252
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 3: the child your relative you're about to lose. I actually

253
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 3: had a solicit at that time because he said that

254
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 3: I was the one that was stopping him seeing his children.

255
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 3: I was the one that was controlling. I was the

256
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 3: one that was unreasonable. He started to really flip. He'd

257
00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,400
Speaker 3: go into the local hotel smoke a joint. This is

258
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 3: not the person that would normally be the case. He

259
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,240
Speaker 3: got a tattoo. He doesn't believe in tattoos. He had

260
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:14,640
Speaker 3: an access visit with Kelly, and he tried to suffocate

261
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,480
Speaker 3: her with a biscuit on a pillow because she came

262
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,640
Speaker 3: home to me and she said, Mum, they put a

263
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,760
Speaker 3: pillow over my face and I had biscuit. I couldn't breathe.

264
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,000
Speaker 3: She was really good in language, very very clever young girl.

265
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 3: I understood very clearly what she was telling me. When

266
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,600
Speaker 3: I told my solicitor, it's inadmissible. She's only your child.

267
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,960
Speaker 3: No one's going to take any notice. But I knew

268
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,920
Speaker 3: I knew no one would help me, no one.

269
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 2: The only thing I.

270
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,920
Speaker 3: Could do was protect Wesley because he really couldn't talk

271
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Speaker 3: still at this time.

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Speaker 2: Remember he was only ten months old. I was only young.

273
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,360
Speaker 3: So I made sure Kevin couldn't get access to him overnight.

274
00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:01,800
Speaker 3: I piloted supervised access because of this. I wouldn't let

275
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,520
Speaker 3: her go overnight with him, but I lost she was

276
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 3: old enough to go. Wesley was not I knew, I

277
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,160
Speaker 3: knew he wasn't the same. But he was sinister.

278
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:16,040
Speaker 2: He didn't do.

279
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 3: This because he flipped out emotionally and flipped out psychologically

280
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 3: in all these words that people want to put to it.

281
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 3: He knew what he was doing. He knew all right,

282
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 3: and he was sinister.

283
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,920
Speaker 2: He knew that whatever he did, it was.

284
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,360
Speaker 3: Out for punishment for me, and that was the only

285
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,120
Speaker 3: reason why he did it, the only reason. And no

286
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,120
Speaker 3: one can say to me that they know better, because

287
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 3: they don't.

288
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:42,280
Speaker 2: They didn't live it.

289
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,200
Speaker 1: Michelle, during this time when he's doing all these behaviors

290
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 1: and you find out that he's also bugged your house

291
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,400
Speaker 1: under the guise of helping you do some rewiring, and

292
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,960
Speaker 1: he set up on a camp across the road on

293
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,400
Speaker 1: a vacant block so he can watch you. And when

294
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 1: he's come to your doorstep and threatened to take his

295
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,879
Speaker 1: own life. So police eventually get involved in this situation.

296
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,159
Speaker 1: What did police tell you about what you could do

297
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,320
Speaker 1: to protect yourself? Did they help you in these situations?

298
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,000
Speaker 2: No?

299
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,480
Speaker 3: No. The only thing is if he was menacing, they

300
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,520
Speaker 3: would just take him out of town, tell him to

301
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 3: get moving on.

302
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 2: No one did anything about it.

303
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,879
Speaker 3: And even though I kept saying to everyone, if he

304
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,159
Speaker 3: was doing this, and at this point he was still,

305
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,159
Speaker 3: you know, just running across my roof, sitting on my roof,

306
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,119
Speaker 3: antagonizing me in every single way. He had barged my phone,

307
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 3: so he was even monitoring every single phone call that

308
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 3: I made. He ended up in my ceiling. Who was

309
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 3: living in my ceiling? Things would go missing in my house,

310
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,040
Speaker 3: like small, stipid little food items and things in the fridge,

311
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,959
Speaker 3: all sorts of things. Then one day I was taking

312
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,959
Speaker 3: the children downtown doing shopping or something like that, and

313
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 3: I came back in because I forgot something and the

314
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,080
Speaker 3: toilet was flushing. Now I'd heard things rattling through the

315
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 3: roof on many occasions, but I thought it was a possum.

316
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 3: I didn't think anything of it, as not even that sounds.

317
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,720
Speaker 3: I really didn't until that day when I heard that

318
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,200
Speaker 3: toilet flush. I was panicking. I was scared. I was frightened,

319
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,480
Speaker 3: and I went down to the police station. I told them,

320
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,159
Speaker 3: and you know they did. They went to the house,

321
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:43,159
Speaker 3: they went in the roof, They got him out, and

322
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:49,360
Speaker 3: then they let him shower because he couldn't go into

323
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 3: court the way it was because he'd been living in

324
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 3: the ceiling for some time and there was debri in

325
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 3: the ceiling, food and everything.

326
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Speaker 2: And they didn't think it was a bad guy.

327
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,199
Speaker 3: I just thought he was just not coping with the

328
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:05,680
Speaker 3: breakup of the family unit.

329
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 2: And boy were they all so.

330
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,439
Speaker 1: At no stage did they think to charge him with

331
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 1: anything with trespassing or anything from living and spying on

332
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 1: you from your roof cavity.

333
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,440
Speaker 2: No charge of the laid correct. Correct.

334
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 3: And that's the thing that you used to really get

335
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,400
Speaker 3: into my gizzards. I just went, for goodness sake, if

336
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 3: this was a stranger in my roof, they would be charged.

337
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 3: That was my home, not his. Tell me why he

338
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 3: was able to be.

339
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 2: There, Tell me why they didn't charge him.

340
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,879
Speaker 3: If I charged him, then he wouldn't have had the

341
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 3: capacity to do what he did because I had proof

342
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 3: he was in my ceiling. There was not here, say

343
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 3: that he was running on my roof, like every time

344
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 3: that I'd call.

345
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 2: And you have to.

346
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 3: Balance these things because otherwise, if you overact, the police

347
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 3: think loloopy, or you're overreacting, or you're trying to be biased.

348
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 3: So you try and go, well, give a thought, don't react,

349
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,439
Speaker 3: be calm. If no unites chaos, you just try not

350
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 3: to overreact. And then guess what, no one cares anyway,

351
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 3: I didn't care. They didn't care about me, They didn't

352
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 3: care about my little kids. And then on the first

353
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 3: visit that he had Kelly overnight after that, the first

354
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 3: visit went fine. He spoilt them with gifts, lots of photographs,

355
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 3: lots of things, we're shopping and all sorts, acted like

356
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 3: it was normal, agetting back to himself, and in the

357
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,639
Speaker 3: second visit she never came back.

358
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 1: Next, Michelle reveals the heartbreak of sending her daughter Kelly

359
00:20:54,200 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: on access visits with her dangerous father. What was it

360
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 1: like to send Kelly off on those access of visits

361
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: after she's already said to you that he's tried to

362
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 1: smother her on one of these occasions. What was it

363
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 1: like for you to have to hand them over to

364
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 1: him again and again?

365
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 2: Was torture?

366
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 3: Absolute torture because I couldn't trust. I couldn't trust that

367
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 3: he was going to keep her safe, couldn't trust and

368
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 3: he was going to be the father that he pretended

369
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 3: he was. And you know, even if she left that day,

370
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 3: her little favorite was Roger Ramjit a little bunny.

371
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: She's going.

372
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 3: Don't worry mummy, because I was crying. I remember it

373
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 3: very well, and I can tell you it's not fair

374
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 3: when you get but in that place, really not fair.

375
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 3: You try, you try, and everything and odds are stacked

376
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 3: against you. Solicitors give you advice because they're too guartless

377
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,360
Speaker 3: to do anything. The system is too gartless to protect

378
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,360
Speaker 3: vulnerable women and worse, vulnerable children. And the worst thing

379
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 3: is it's the same today, after thirty years of me

380
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 3: telling them a story, it is a damn same thing today,

381
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 3: the same.

382
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: Michelle. You know that.

383
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: When Kevin took Kelly's life, he documented it and police

384
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: told you that specifically he did so to make it

385
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 1: as awful as humanly possible for you, Worse than anything

386
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: he could have ever done to you physically or emotionally

387
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: or psychologically. We know that you have not read that diary.

388
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,359
Speaker 1: Is there still a part of you who wants to know?

389
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I can tell you now.

390
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 3: I can tell you that I honestly wanted to read it.

391
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 3: I did, and the police said no, don't. Was the

392
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 3: detectives that worked on the case. They were seasoned detectives,

393
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 3: and they said this case was gut wrenching for them,

394
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 3: no different in a sense of pain.

395
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 2: They couldn't believe the outcome.

396
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 3: And through these years, when I first went there to

397
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 3: read it, they said, please don't.

398
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: It's meant for you. Don't read it. And they just

399
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: would not relate it.

400
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 3: They said, no, this will damage you. You can't because

401
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 3: it damaged them reading it. And like I said, they

402
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 3: were seasoned detectives. And to this day, I've never met

403
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 3: the bushwalkers who found my daughter was burying in mind

404
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: she went missing. And I was the last person to

405
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 3: speak to Kevin, because he said to me, you know

406
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 3: all this stuff, and I just said to him, Kevin,

407
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: I don't want to talk. I just want you to

408
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 3: bring Kelly back. I won't have police here. I just

409
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 3: want her back. And he wouldn't listen.

410
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: He wouldn't.

411
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 3: And the thing is is that when anyone says that

412
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: it wasn't predetermined what he was going to do, he

413
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 3: knew from the moment he took her to the beach

414
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 3: he had purchased hoes who was sitting there writing she

415
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: died with her Roger Ramjit. He watched her, He diarized

416
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 3: her Zach time that she died. What kind of father

417
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 3: does that? And I know over the years, I've met

418
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 3: many women. I've heard many stories of news reports of

419
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: women have suffered more by losing more children, set on fire,

420
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 3: bludgeoned death.

421
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 2: Truth of matter is they're all the same.

422
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 3: They don't do it because they've got a psychological disorder.

423
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 3: They do it for life long pain, and there's a punishment,

424
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 3: punishment for how dare you leave because your property? Nothing more,

425
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 3: nothing less?

426
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: Michelle, As you said, it's been thirty years since Kelly died,

427
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: and still this is happening, and in fact, some studies

428
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: say that it's happening more frequently. How do you keep

429
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: telling this story over thirty years and not feel like

430
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: you're shouting into.

431
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 3: The void Because I don't lose hope as an optimist.

432
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 3: I don't lose hope. I believe that greater movement comes

433
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 3: with greater message so that everyone understands.

434
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: But then no one talked about things. It was taboo.

435
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 3: And I hate the word sexy politics because I don't

436
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: give a damn why they don't believe that this is

437
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: not at the forefront of this country. It is, and

438
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 3: someone needs to stand up and take notice and stop

439
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 3: calling it sexy politics because they can't fundraise towards this,

440
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 3: so they can't walk in and swam around the room

441
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: and get people to fund their campaigns to win an election.

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00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: I'm so sick of that. It's not funny. Even in

443
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 2: Wa politics.

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00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 3: In two thousand and one, state parliament was introduced with

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00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 3: a nineteen point three percent rise in domestic family violence

446
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 3: twenty percent, really, and what in two thousand and one

447
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 3: policy came out of that.

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00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: Nothing?

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00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 3: Nothing, tokenism, That's what it was, No different than federal parliament,

450
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 3: session of governance. Are all just tokenism politics when it

451
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: comes to diversic violence in this country.

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00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: And now you see on.

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00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 3: The TV all sorts of smaller ads that are accepted

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00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 3: by governments, But where's the policy? Where is it missing?

455
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 3: An action is where so much they need to do

456
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: to repair every state in this country, not just one,

457
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 3: but every state. You know, some states go a little

458
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: bit further. But the problem is there's inconsistencies across legislation

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00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 3: in all these states. And what jurisdiction Is it commonwealth

460
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 3: or is it state law? Is it federal police that

461
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 3: come in like they do in the Eastern States, or

462
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 3: is it state police that come in like they do

463
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 3: in wa But even women trying to flee a marriage,

464
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 3: let's look at the marriage Act, let's have that conversation.

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00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 3: I really tried with the attorney generals, and you know what,

466
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 3: none of them has the gizzards to eat and contemplate change.

467
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 3: Someone has to keep saying enough is enough. Sure, it's

468
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 3: sometimes draining on me. That's why sometimes I've had to

469
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: stop and do other things, But it's never not important

470
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: to me to keep the conversation, to keep the activation going,

471
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 3: to keep the awareness going, to make sure that other

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00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 3: people can make positive change for themselves.

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00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: Michelle, do you ever let yourself think about who Kelly

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00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: would be today?

475
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: All the time? All the time. That's one of the

476
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 2: things that haunts me.

477
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,719
Speaker 3: What kind of beautiful young woman would she be, What

478
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: would she be doing, How would her life be, What

479
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: choices would she make if she had children?

480
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: What would they be like? If you liken it to a.

481
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: Tree of life, or her branch has been cut off

482
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: for good and in actual fact, her tree's been mowed

483
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: down on, the roots pulled out. That's what's happened to

484
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 3: her legacy. She was a child cut short, like all

485
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: of them are, through domestic violence, through no fault of

486
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 3: their own, because in apt human being can't even keep

487
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: their own emotions together and just want to cause violence

488
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: and chaos against their partner because they want to punish

489
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: them simple and these poor innocent little babes in the

490
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 3: firing line.

491
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 2: It's so not fair when a parent is meant to.

492
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 3: Be the absolute guardian, the person who will be there

493
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 3: for them through thick and thin.

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00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: If there is anyone listening who might be going through

495
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: a situation of their own, is there anything you'd like

496
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: to say to them?

497
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 3: I would say to anyone who's really trapped and really

498
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: can't see how to get out, use a simple little

499
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: thing that everyone's been using for many, many generations, A

500
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 3: simple letter. A simple letter. When you go to the shops,

501
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: find a way to distribute a letter, even if you

502
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: go for walking the pram and put it in one

503
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 3: of those little red post boxes around your community. I

504
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 3: know that sounds ridiculous, but I'm telling you there are

505
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: ways to get out and find a way. And whatever

506
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 3: you do when you do leave, john't go back and

507
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: put real support around you.

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00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: And tap into resources. I hope that helps. Michelle.

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00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: I want to say thank you for going here with

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00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: us today, for letting us into your world, for giving

511
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: us understanding, for showing your passion, for introducing us to Kelly.

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00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: Thank you for fighting hard for people who often go unnoticed,

513
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: and for those in the future because we know there

514
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: will be them who might hear this and it might

515
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: make a change. Thank you for all of that.

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00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 2: Michelle, You're welcome.

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00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: Thanks Claire, Thank you so much to Michelle for sharing

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00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: her story with us. If you need support, reach out

519
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: to one eight hundred Respect for Violence and Abuse Support

520
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: or Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen for twenty four hour

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00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: crisis support and suicide prevention. True Crime Conversations is hosted

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00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: by me Claire Murphy. Our senior producer is Tarlie Blackman.

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00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: The group executive producer is a Larier Brophy and it's

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00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: been audio designed by Tina Madeloff. Thank you so much

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00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: for listening. I'll be back next week with another True

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00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: Crime Conversation. True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of

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00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: land and waters that this podcast was recorded on