Speaker 1: So a situationship is comfortable. That doesn't mean it's right
Speaker 1: for me and what I need, but it means that
Speaker 1: I don't have to be super vulnerable. I don't have
Speaker 1: to fear being hurt. I don't have to fear being
Speaker 1: consumed by someone and having to give everything to them.
Speaker 1: And that might be too much. If we're thinking about
Speaker 1: those people where yeah, on the surface, situationships really suit them,
Speaker 1: It's not really that it suits them. It's more that
Speaker 1: I'm scared that if I allow more of myself to
Speaker 1: be seen or to be given to someone, that I
Speaker 1: then could get hurt.
Speaker 2: Welcome to you, but are you happy? I'm a Shani Dante.
Speaker 2: Dating can feel confusing enough, but now there's a new
Speaker 2: kind of dynamic that a lot of people are living inside,
Speaker 2: often without even realizing it. The situationship. It's an undefined
Speaker 2: romantic connection that sits somewhere between dating and a proper relationship.
Speaker 2: It can feel warm, convenient, and even intimate, but it's
Speaker 2: rarely clear to the two people in it what they're
Speaker 2: relationship actually is. Today, we're unpacking the psychology behind situationships
Speaker 2: with Sarah Bays. She's a Sydney based psychotherapist and host
Speaker 2: of MoMA MIA's relationship podcasts This Is Why We Fight.
Speaker 2: She also runs Motivated Minds, a counseling practice with a
Speaker 2: strong focus on relationships. Sarah spends a lot of time
Speaker 2: helping people make sense of their relationship patterns, especially how
Speaker 2: attachment styles play into the way we connect and situationships
Speaker 2: come up a lot on again, off again dynamic, the
Speaker 2: blurry boundaries, the we're not really together but we're definitely
Speaker 2: not nothing kind of relationships. She's here to help us
Speaker 2: unpack this today. So join Sarah and I in the
Speaker 2: Butai Happy Studio for this incredible conversation. Thank you so
Speaker 2: much Sarah for joining us today. I'm excited about today's episode.
Speaker 1: Me too, thank you for having me. I'm yeah, this
Speaker 1: is a really fun topic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's fun. And also there's like I just
Speaker 2: find the term is very new as well, like in
Speaker 2: my space. I'm like, oh, I didn't know much about
Speaker 2: it until I started researching about it, and I'm like, oh, wow,
Speaker 2: this is a thing. Yeah, but it's interesting because you know,
Speaker 2: for people who have clicked on this episode, some maybe
Speaker 2: wondering whether they are or their friends are in a
Speaker 2: situationship or not. So let's start there, like what actually
Speaker 2: is a situationship?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I love that this idea that some people
Speaker 1: may actually be in one and not know, because I
Speaker 1: think until you put a name to things, sometimes it
Speaker 1: is this kind of just like ambiguous, you know, situation
Speaker 1: that I'm in. And I love how the words situationship
Speaker 1: kind of has this self explanatory part to it, where
Speaker 1: it's like it's a situation that I can't really label
Speaker 1: or put an exact title on, you know. So it's
Speaker 1: often I guess the point of them usually is either
Speaker 1: we don't want to be putting a label on something,
Speaker 1: so we're keeping it as a situationship, or it's too
Speaker 1: new to put a label on so at the moment,
Speaker 1: we're just sort of like letting this thing organically grow
Speaker 1: and it might turn into a relationship, it might stay
Speaker 1: this way. It's kind of like we don't know what
Speaker 1: direction it's going in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just sounds like it's it sounds messy, like
Speaker 2: you kind of get the unknown. And I've did a
Speaker 2: bit of research and it was talking about how situationships
Speaker 2: are being labeled as a liminal space for a relationship,
Speaker 2: where a liminal space is basically that messy in between stage.
Speaker 2: You're not in one room, but you're not in the
Speaker 2: other room. You're kind of lurking in the hallway. Yeah
Speaker 2: you're own Yeah, yeah, yeahs it's limbo, that's what it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think a lot of people really struggle
Speaker 1: in that space, you know. I mean, I think as
Speaker 1: human beings, our brain loves to have things in categories
Speaker 1: and be really clearly defined. And that can be a
Speaker 1: good thing in some ways, but in other ways it
Speaker 1: can make us sort of push things before they're ready,
Speaker 1: or pull out of things before we've given it a chance.
Speaker 1: And so I think it depends on your personality type,
Speaker 1: whether you're the type of person who would do well
Speaker 1: in a situationship or who would find one like an
Speaker 1: absolute nightmare. Yeah, you know, and I think that situationships
Speaker 1: have always been around. I think the term is fairly recent.
Speaker 1: But if I think about, you know, without sounding super old,
Speaker 1: but in my time, it was like seeing each other
Speaker 1: rather than dating. Well you know, so it's like if
Speaker 1: I was seeing someone, it meant that something was going on,
Speaker 1: but we weren't committed or fully dating, you know. So
Speaker 1: I feel like this is a thing that has always
Speaker 1: been there's just been different ways to talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And it's interesting because you know, one thing
Speaker 2: that I'm thinking about that I'm sure people are wondering,
Speaker 2: is like, what are the red flags or warning signs
Speaker 2: that a connection is turning into a situationship rather than
Speaker 2: a healthy defined relationship?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, even they're healthy defined, right, So the word
Speaker 1: defined means that we have actually about it, but we
Speaker 1: have had an open and transparent conversation about what this is,
Speaker 1: what I want, what you want? You know? Do our
Speaker 1: needs match up? Do our expectations match up? So that
Speaker 1: really is that difference where of course, in the beginning
Speaker 1: we can allow for some ambiguity. We can just go, okay,
Speaker 1: let's see where this goes. Like we both know each
Speaker 1: other's general intention, like is this friends? Is this more
Speaker 1: than friends? You know? Where are we at on the
Speaker 1: intimacy front? So there's you know a few things we
Speaker 1: can kind of let organically grow, But there usually becomes
Speaker 1: a point where someone or both one or both parties
Speaker 1: want a bit more definition. And situationships in themselves aren't bad,
Speaker 1: I think when they are not properly discussed and almost negotiated,
Speaker 1: Like everything is a negotiation. Friendships, relationships, we have to
Speaker 1: look at what can I bring, what can you bring?
Speaker 1: What are my needs? What are your needs? Can we
Speaker 1: meet each other? So does this work for both of us?
Speaker 1: And if we don't have that conversation, expl people get
Speaker 1: stuck in these situationships that they're not really happy in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: But if you have those conversations and there's two people
Speaker 1: who are quite securely attached, so they have a secure
Speaker 1: attachment style, good communications skills, a situation ship can be
Speaker 1: really beneficial for both parties and just suit where you're
Speaker 1: at in life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I really like that because, like I'm hearing,
Speaker 2: communication is a really important thing, and getting really clear
Speaker 2: on your intentions early on makes the massive difference. And
Speaker 2: it's hard too, because I guess there's nuance to that too,
Speaker 2: because people will be like, well, you know, it's still
Speaker 2: really early, I can't really know my expectations. So again
Speaker 2: it's like we want to kind of have a bit
Speaker 2: of a step by step guide, but it feels like
Speaker 2: there it is a bit ambiguous in a way.
Speaker 1: So I think what's important here is looking at what
Speaker 1: your level of tolerance to discomfort is the discomfort of ambiguity.
Speaker 1: Some people find that very you know, anxiety inducing or
Speaker 1: just really like, you know, I'm starting spiral? Are they
Speaker 1: even into me?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Am I being too full on? Am I not being
Speaker 1: full on enough? And you know, so some people can
Speaker 1: get like that other people. If we think of people
Speaker 1: who maybe you know a bit more on the avoidance side,
Speaker 1: situationships are kind of like the best of both worlds
Speaker 1: for them, So they will probably be the one that's
Speaker 1: least likely to bring anything up and decide we need
Speaker 1: to define anything, because to be honest, they're getting the
Speaker 1: closeness and connection that avoidance do want, but without the
Speaker 1: pressure and without that sort of like neediness and like
Speaker 1: having to commit in a big way, so they'll be
Speaker 1: less likely to want to make a change to anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. You've brought up some terms which
Speaker 2: I'm really curious to unpack with you around like attachment
Speaker 2: style and personality. And I'm curious because we've unpacked a
Speaker 2: lot of what the signs are of a situationship. But
Speaker 2: is there kind of a hidden formula or pattern that
Speaker 2: you've noticed in relationship dynamics. So people who come to
Speaker 2: see you in the clinic where you're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: this is classic situationship formula, you know in a way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I've seen some really lovely situationships. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know some of my clients they've been really great
Speaker 1: at kind of just being able to almost hold what
Speaker 1: they need in life right now. And it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I might have kids at home, or I might be
Speaker 1: like really focused on my business, or I might just
Speaker 1: you know, want to take things easy. I've come out
Speaker 1: of a long relationship. I'd love to have a bit
Speaker 1: of fun and a bit of company and things. But
Speaker 1: you know, so they've been quite clear and intentional around like, hey,
Speaker 1: this is where I'm at and what I need. Does
Speaker 1: that suit you? If it does, great, and also like
Speaker 1: checking in on that because things change, you know, a
Speaker 1: month later, six months later, a year later, we might
Speaker 1: be in different places. So it's that kind of revisiting
Speaker 1: of like how is this working for you? Like do
Speaker 1: we see each other frequently enough? Are we having enough intimacy?
Speaker 1: Do you want more from me? Am I pushing too
Speaker 1: much on you?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: These are just normal conversations to be had, and that's
Speaker 1: a great formula where it works really well, yeah, but
Speaker 1: both parties have to be able to have that level
Speaker 1: of I guess communication skill really and transparency. But the
Speaker 1: other type of formula I see, which is maybe not
Speaker 1: so positive, where it does get quite complicated, is when
Speaker 1: there is this I guess maybe on both sides, it's
Speaker 1: reluctance to have real vulnerability. If one person is not
Speaker 1: able to say, hey, I want a bit more or
Speaker 1: this isn't really working for me, then it's this kind
Speaker 1: of trap where we have this like faux security and
Speaker 1: faux stability, but really I can only rely on you
Speaker 1: in particular windows and in particular ways. I actually don't
Speaker 1: have that secure and stable partnership that I might want,
Speaker 1: you know, And I think there's this sort of bread
Speaker 1: crumbing that happens. And this is not intentional bread crumbing
Speaker 1: like in a narcissistic type of way, but just this
Speaker 1: where you get these moments of like connection and closeness
Speaker 1: and like, yay, we got to see each other, or
Speaker 1: we had a great phone call, or we you know,
Speaker 1: went out and had a nice date. But then the
Speaker 1: rest of the week, maybe I don't have them as
Speaker 1: like that person that I could call and just you know,
Speaker 1: have a cry about something too or you know, just
Speaker 1: bent about something and it depending on what your needs are,
Speaker 1: that might not be enough. Yeah, and for people with
Speaker 1: an anxious attachment, they might notice that, but they're so
Speaker 1: used to that inconsistency in relationship that this is just
Speaker 1: like that same old chase cycle that they're in.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember, like back in the
Speaker 2: days where I mean I'm sounding like we're really old.
Speaker 1: That's just like the ninety podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's like, you know, is that has something
Speaker 2: to do with when people are like, yeah, I like
Speaker 2: to go for the bad guy or the bad person,
Speaker 2: you know, just is that playing into that kind of
Speaker 2: they're trapping themselves in potentially what they deserve and the
Speaker 2: attachment style they have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you brought up the bad guy.
Speaker 1: I think because there's something there, and because there's a
Speaker 1: gender thing there too, right as well, but which and
Speaker 1: to be honest, more and more now I find the
Speaker 1: gender is less. It's less, you know, the guy is
Speaker 1: the avoidant, the girl is the anxious. It's becoming less.
Speaker 1: So that way, there probably is still a skew that
Speaker 1: you know, it's not fifty to fifty in that sense,
Speaker 1: but I do find it not so stereotypically always the
Speaker 1: man that's the avoidant and the female that's the anxious one.
Speaker 1: But I guess this is where that whole bad guy thing.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a stereotype that men don't
Speaker 1: want to commit because they want to be able to
Speaker 1: play the field blah blah blah blah, where I feel
Speaker 1: that nowadays, this is what feeds into a lot of
Speaker 1: that anxious need to be in this committed relationship because
Speaker 1: the only reason you wouldn't want to commit is because
Speaker 1: you want to play the field totally. Yeah, yeah, where, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of other reasons that could
Speaker 1: be happening. That is one of them. Yeah, but there
Speaker 1: are many other reasons to think about. And this is
Speaker 1: where that communication piece comes in. Yeah, A really interesting
Speaker 1: thing that Esther Perell talks about. I love her, love her,
Speaker 1: so you know, she does so many drops of wisdom
Speaker 1: from this woman. But she talks about how monogamy is
Speaker 1: really like where desire and passion goes to die. And
Speaker 1: that sounds depressing it first, really, but it sounds very
Speaker 1: depressing it first, and probably you know, might trigger a
Speaker 1: few people into being like what do you mean what
Speaker 1: she means by that is for our nervous systems to
Speaker 1: really feel safe, to be vulnerable and intimate and rely
Speaker 1: on someone and trust someone, we need consistency, We need security,
Speaker 1: you know, we want to know that that person is there.
Speaker 1: We know we can predict their usual behaviors, we know
Speaker 1: that they show up for us, they show us nurture
Speaker 1: and kindness, all these other things. Then relationships do need.
Speaker 1: So what the problem is, though, is that desire and
Speaker 1: passion that thrives on like mystery, thrill you know, these
Speaker 1: kind of like novelty like that's what desire and passion
Speaker 1: gets fueled by. So if you think about like committed
Speaker 1: relationship doesn't really have that stuff, Like it's not that
Speaker 1: it doesn't and you can't have passion and desire in
Speaker 1: a monogamous relationship. You absolutely can. But there's something about
Speaker 1: situationships they give you this kind of like foot in
Speaker 1: both worlds where it's like there's still this like novelty, adventurous,
Speaker 1: like thrilling, mystery part because we're not like in this
Speaker 1: fully committed relationship, but we have these like pretend parts
Speaker 1: of the committed relationship. So we get a bit of both.
Speaker 1: So I think that that can kind of keep that
Speaker 1: sort of like I don't know, like bad boy or
Speaker 1: like kind of excitingness or you know, sort of thrill
Speaker 1: thing to the relationship. But I think people in like
Speaker 1: it's it can be a bit like a drug and
Speaker 1: it's hard to jump off that rollercoaster in that sense.
Speaker 2: So you were talking about attachment styles before. I'm curious
Speaker 2: to know how does one build their awareness around what
Speaker 2: kind of attachment style they are before they go into
Speaker 2: something like a situationship. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So look, there's a lot of online little tests and
Speaker 1: surveys and questionnaires that you can do, and you know,
Speaker 1: like I would say, like do that. It's fun. It's
Speaker 1: probably a little bit more complex and complicated than that,
Speaker 1: but from a basic level, a lot of people will
Speaker 1: go and do something like that. So if even if
Speaker 1: you look up like attachment style, John Bowlby is the
Speaker 1: person who actually created that sort of even the term
Speaker 1: I believe, but also just a theory around attachment. And
Speaker 1: if I break it down really simply, there's four main
Speaker 1: attachment styles and it can it has sort of broadened
Speaker 1: out over the years where there's like these sort of
Speaker 1: like multiple half like merged attachment styles, which you know,
Speaker 1: is a kind of more complex if we start digging
Speaker 1: into it deeper, but if we keep it just sort
Speaker 1: of on that more foundational learning about it. We've got
Speaker 1: four main attachment styles. So we've got secure, which speaks
Speaker 1: for itself as that real sort of more secure attachment
Speaker 1: sort of those people who are really quite authentic and
Speaker 1: show up in their relationships being able to be vulnerable
Speaker 1: communicating well, yeah, there's this kind of just like stable
Speaker 1: consistency to their relationships. Then we've got the anxious attachment style,
Speaker 1: which is very much the one who fears abandonment. Could
Speaker 1: come across as like clinging or needy or like having
Speaker 1: space doesn't work well for you. You know, you want to
Speaker 1: fix the problem right now. You don't want to have space,
Speaker 1: You want to just everything is made fine again. If
Speaker 1: someone's upset or angry, I get really distressed. I find
Speaker 1: it hard to tolerate distance and disapproval.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Then we've got the avoidant attachment style, which is more
Speaker 1: so Yeah, people who seem a little bit like a
Speaker 1: bit more guarded kind of of takes a while to
Speaker 1: let you in. Usually they might in an argument just
Speaker 1: want to go away and not talk or they shut down.
Speaker 1: They don't want to talk things through now. They really
Speaker 1: need their space. If you kind of get too needy,
Speaker 1: they really sort of back off. Yeah, so they just
Speaker 1: It's interesting because people with avoidant attachment style very much
Speaker 1: want the connection, but they fear the connection. So where
Speaker 1: anxious attachment style is where I fear abandonment, and the
Speaker 1: avoidant is where I fear being consumed by and taken
Speaker 1: over by someone else's needs. So I still want the connection,
Speaker 1: but I'm scared you're going to kind of take over
Speaker 1: me if I give it to you. Then there's the
Speaker 1: insecure attachment style. And a lot of people worry about
Speaker 1: being this one. I feel like if you are this one,
Speaker 1: you might know you know, So it's probably quite clear generally,
Speaker 1: an insecure attachment style sadly comes from quite a history
Speaker 1: of trauma and particularly in early childhood. But people who
Speaker 1: they struggle to make healthy connections, they probably don't have
Speaker 1: many long lasting even friendships like so they kind of
Speaker 1: you know, short friendships, short relationships. It can be very
Speaker 1: hard for them to be able to maintain that consistency instability.
Speaker 1: So they're people who they oscillate between the anxious and avoidant,
Speaker 1: but they do it sort of so frequently that it's
Speaker 1: hard for anyone to kind of keep up.
Speaker 2: I was doing a bit of research and going to
Speaker 2: one of our greatest resources, TikTok oh. Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: was just looking at just looking up situationships, and I know,
Speaker 2: it was really great you spoke to the gender piece
Speaker 2: because I was like, a lot of them were women
Speaker 2: talking about their experiences of a situationship. But it was
Speaker 2: really fascinating because I noticed this trend of women realizing
Speaker 2: they were in a situationship after they left. Yeah. And
Speaker 2: it just gets me thinking around, like why is it
Speaker 2: that we see the unhealthy signs after we leave?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, And you know, I think it's that that
Speaker 1: bread crumbing where it's like, oh, I get yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is what I want, this is yeah, this makes
Speaker 1: me happy, this is what I'm looking for, And then
Speaker 1: that kind of like tides you over until the next
Speaker 1: bread crumb. And but in between the bread crumbs, there
Speaker 1: is this discomfort of like, oh, okay, you know, I
Speaker 1: thought maybe we'd be seeing a bit more of each other,
Speaker 1: or I'm really disappointed that he didn't show up to
Speaker 1: my thing that I had that was really important or
Speaker 1: you know, like different things like that I think get
Speaker 1: sort of minimized or swept away by the kind of
Speaker 1: good bits and whether or not there's something there around
Speaker 1: Is it that you didn't know that it was a
Speaker 1: situationship or were you not willing to bring up certain
Speaker 1: things that would have clarified that for you. So there's
Speaker 1: a resistance in actually finding out or talking about your
Speaker 1: grievances or saying like, hey, I need a bit more
Speaker 1: than this.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, yeah totally. And it's interesting too because I
Speaker 2: guess what I noticed was that I guess there's like
Speaker 2: a greater perspective that people get once they finish, like
Speaker 2: finish all the relationship changes, where they're like, oh shit, yeah,
Speaker 2: I fully betrayed myself in that moment. Oh yeah, I
Speaker 2: actually did want him to show up to that thing,
Speaker 2: and I was fully people pleasing. So it's like it's
Speaker 2: such a mirror of where within ourselves we need to
Speaker 2: kind of look deeper.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a really really common thing I see
Speaker 1: is people excusing things. And it's not to say that
Speaker 1: we have to hold everyone to the highest accountability for
Speaker 1: every single thing they do or don't do, but there's
Speaker 1: a dishonesty in ourselves, and it's often to protect you know,
Speaker 1: if I really admit to myself how hurt I am
Speaker 1: about that, I have to actually let that pain come
Speaker 1: up and I have to feel it. And maybe it's
Speaker 1: just easier to say that, oh, it wasn't that important.
Speaker 1: And you know, their work is really really important to
Speaker 1: them and they're really busy, so that's okay.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: So I think that people struggle to hold both. Yeah, yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: they have an important work sing on. But I'm also
Speaker 1: really disappointed that they didn't make the effort to come.
Speaker 1: You can hold both. It doesn't have to be they
Speaker 1: are a terrible person for not coming to my event,
Speaker 1: but it could be. It really hurt me, and I
Speaker 1: am sad about that. But I do also understand that
Speaker 1: they have their own stuff going to so yeah, whereas
Speaker 1: we're often either in one camp or the other. So
Speaker 1: they're horrible or it was fine.
Speaker 2: That's so true. No, I fully see that, and I
Speaker 2: think it's important that we yeah, give light to both. Yeah,
Speaker 2: more of my conversation with Sarah after this short break.
Speaker 2: I'm really curious, like, why do people become so emotionally
Speaker 2: invested in situationships, even when there's no real commitment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is the hat. This is where I
Speaker 1: was thinking before about the different personality types. Some people
Speaker 1: are not able to be in a situationship without catching
Speaker 1: feelings so to speak. You know, and you'd like to
Speaker 1: think that anybody in a situation has a certain amount
Speaker 1: of feelings for the other person you know, and cares
Speaker 1: about them and enjoy spending time with them. But when
Speaker 1: that trickles into you know, falling in love or things
Speaker 1: like that sometimes inevitable. But some people, particularly when you
Speaker 1: bring sex into the piece, right, or intimacy in whatever way,
Speaker 1: some people can make really sort of I guess, I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's about being in denial, but they
Speaker 1: sort of actually like, oh, yeah, this will be fine.
Speaker 1: I can have sex with this person and not catch
Speaker 1: feelings or you know. And that's that's slippery slope where
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, it sounds like a great idea, and
Speaker 1: then you know, a month or two later, it's like,
Speaker 1: oh no, I'm now like fully invested in this and yeah,
Speaker 1: whereas other people can really separate sex and love and
Speaker 1: you know, sex is fun, it's all great, you know,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't create this sort of like closeness and intimacy.
Speaker 1: From an emotional perspective, I can sort of separate the two.
Speaker 1: So you really need to think about knowing yourself, understanding yourself,
Speaker 1: and whether a situationship is something that you can get
Speaker 1: into or whether sort of from the beginning, it's like, hey,
Speaker 1: if that's what you're after, that's all good, but I
Speaker 1: know that that doesn't work for me, Like I'll be
Speaker 1: you know, a month or two time, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be in love with you, and if that's not what
Speaker 1: you're after, like, let's not do this, you.
Speaker 2: Know totally, and you can, I guess in a way,
Speaker 2: you can get so swept up and like the you know,
Speaker 2: getting attention and feeling loved, Like it's a great feeling
Speaker 2: being loved and being seen. So I can imagine it
Speaker 2: being really difficult. So what's the brain's role in keeping
Speaker 2: people stuck in situationships? Like there's things like hope or
Speaker 2: fantasy or the intermittent reactions that you were kind of
Speaker 2: talking about before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so there's all of that sort of like
Speaker 1: the oxytocin, the dopamine, the serotonin, like all the good
Speaker 1: feelings that you know, if we think of it as
Speaker 1: like I'm almost imagining like a pinball machine is, like
Speaker 1: you know, and it's very similar to like the pleasure
Speaker 1: center the rewards center of the brain. And then if
Speaker 1: we're thinking thinking about like in any sort of addictions
Speaker 1: work that I do, it's very much around what are
Speaker 1: the things that kind of light up those areas in
Speaker 1: my brain? And then what happens when I don't get it?
Speaker 1: And then, you know, do I fall into that chase
Speaker 1: cycle where it becomes like I'm obsessed or consumed by it?
Speaker 1: Da da dah, Because even the chase is part of
Speaker 1: the addiction bit, and it's not to say we're registicted,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it all becomes this cycle, and every part
Speaker 1: of the cycle is just as sort of like pulling
Speaker 1: you in as the other. I also think that part
Speaker 1: that Esteperell talked about where it's like, you know, the desire,
Speaker 1: the thrill, there's a fantasy element because usually in a
Speaker 1: situationship you're not there, you know, all throughout the night,
Speaker 1: or like when they're having a really shitty day, or
Speaker 1: you know, when they're like got horrible diarrhea while they
Speaker 1: were on holidays and got gastro or something. You know,
Speaker 1: like you're usually not there for those is like real lifelike,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of mood killer moments, and so it
Speaker 1: keeps that novelty thing alive. So it's kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, we swipe and we see a new reel
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, you know, so we kind of
Speaker 1: get this still novelty thing that keeps coming with the situationships.
Speaker 1: So the brain is very much like getting a lot
Speaker 1: of these rewards stuff happening. Whereas when you live with
Speaker 1: someone or see each other a lot, or like, there's
Speaker 1: this real you know, stability and consistency that reward like
Speaker 1: novelty center isn't going off so much. That doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that there aren't beautiful experiences that you have in committed
Speaker 1: long term relationships, but it's just different. It works on
Speaker 1: different parts of the nervous system in the brain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally totally. You know, that's good to note. So
Speaker 2: when it comes to situationships, like, how because again it
Speaker 2: is it's great that you've painted that it can be great,
Speaker 2: but also can be really hard and can have massive impacts.
Speaker 2: How does situationships impact self esteem and self worth over time? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I love that. It's like our brains were connected because
Speaker 1: I'm like, that was exactly the next part I we
Speaker 1: needed to talk about, you know, yeah, the self worth
Speaker 1: and the self esteem thing. So I think on both parties, right,
Speaker 1: So let's say, let's say that people who are really
Speaker 1: happy with the situationship in terms of well, let's put
Speaker 1: this away. There's two types of happy with being in
Speaker 1: a situationship. One where it really is actually meeting my
Speaker 1: needs and it's legitimately where I'm at in life and
Speaker 1: it's great. And then there's another happy with it, which
Speaker 1: is more like, this is just my comfort space. So
Speaker 1: a situationship is comfortable. That doesn't mean it's right for
Speaker 1: me and what I need, but it means that I
Speaker 1: don't have to be super vulnerable. I don't have to
Speaker 1: fear being hurt. I don't have to fear being consumed
Speaker 1: by someone and having to give everything to them, and
Speaker 1: that might be too much. Yeah. So if we're thinking
Speaker 1: about those people where yeah, on the surface, situationships really
Speaker 1: to them, it's not really that it suits them. It's
Speaker 1: more that I'm scared that if I allow more of
Speaker 1: myself to be seen or to be given to someone,
Speaker 1: that I then could get hurt. So there's this real
Speaker 1: sort of self esteem and the idea that if I
Speaker 1: get hurt like that, I don't know if I can cope. Yes,
Speaker 1: So there's real like sort of self esteem and self
Speaker 1: worth bit on the more avoidance side, but then on
Speaker 1: the more anxious side, who wants more and maybe a
Speaker 1: situationship isn't actually right for them, but they've kind of
Speaker 1: gotten sucked into one and now they're like, oh god,
Speaker 1: I think on that end, the not leaving or the
Speaker 1: not bringing up the parts that aren't working for them
Speaker 1: to even see if maybe we could make this something
Speaker 1: that could work for both of us. That's that self
Speaker 1: esteem peace there where it's like, you know, if I'm
Speaker 1: not keeping them happy, or that their needs are more
Speaker 1: important than mine, if I start to speak up or
Speaker 1: say what I want, maybe they'll leave me. Maybe there
Speaker 1: isn't enough that I bring that would make it worth it,
Speaker 1: if they don't have that flexibility that they wanted, or
Speaker 1: you know, so there's this idea that you know, my
Speaker 1: needs aren't as important, so just don't worry about it,
Speaker 1: or maybe that I can't find anyone better, I can't
Speaker 1: find someone that will commit to me. So there is
Speaker 1: an element of that self worth stuff that can play
Speaker 1: a part for some people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting you talk about that last piece
Speaker 2: around one of the reasons being like, well, maybe there
Speaker 2: isn't other people, another person out there for me. And
Speaker 2: I noticed this with a lot of my girlfriends where
Speaker 2: who are still single and they're trying to find their person,
Speaker 2: and a lot of them are feeling really disheartened. So
Speaker 2: it's like, I can imagine just that being further evidence
Speaker 2: of why you might just stay in it because it
Speaker 2: feels comfortable, feels familiar in a way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and it is really sad, you know, this
Speaker 1: idea that and maybe some of it is exacerbated by
Speaker 1: social media or you know, just stories and Hollywood and
Speaker 1: all that stuff about there only being one person for you,
Speaker 1: and you know, like I think that that's wild to
Speaker 1: think that there's only one person out there that I
Speaker 1: could possibly have this amazing connection with or who could
Speaker 1: love me like that. And yeah, it really exacerbates this like, oh,
Speaker 1: what's the word scarcity. It really exacerbates this scarcity mindset
Speaker 1: of like there won't be anyone else or there won't
Speaker 1: be anything better. Yeah, yeah, I see this with my
Speaker 1: clients so much, and I'm always like trying to hold
Speaker 1: myself back from me, Like, trust me, there are people
Speaker 1: out there for everyone, and there isn't just one person.
Speaker 1: If you think you found that one person and then
Speaker 1: it didn't work out, like you have no idea who
Speaker 1: you're going to meet in life, and you have no
Speaker 1: idea what's even happening tomorrow, Like you just don't know
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. You know, in a good way,
Speaker 1: also in a bad way. It works both ways, but
Speaker 1: we just never know. And I think that there are
Speaker 1: so many things we don't even have in our mind
Speaker 1: yet of what type of person we might meet and
Speaker 1: want and how they might respond to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, Well that's good. I mean, you've been in
Speaker 2: this space for over ten years, working with a lot
Speaker 2: with a lot of relationships. So hopefully that's the side
Speaker 2: of hope for anyone listening. And I'm sure if they've
Speaker 2: got to buy their person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you're not happy, I'm just if you're
Speaker 1: not happy in something, and if it's not saying if
Speaker 1: you're not happy to sleave, but if you are not
Speaker 1: happy and you have tried quite hard to have these
Speaker 1: difficult conversations with that person, if it's not changing, and
Speaker 1: if they're not willing to at least put the effort
Speaker 1: to try and make it work with you. That's the
Speaker 1: thing I just see so much obvious people just go Okay, well,
Speaker 1: I guess this is all right. This I'll settle like
Speaker 1: this will be okay. And I think situationships can, for
Speaker 1: some people be a version of settling. I can't really
Speaker 1: get the thing that I want, but this is okay,
Speaker 1: so I'll just this is okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up because I was
Speaker 2: going to ask, like, what are some of the signals
Speaker 2: that someone should seriously consider leaving a situationship? So that
Speaker 2: would you say is one of them? Is there more?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think feeling lonely in a relationship is a
Speaker 1: big one. I mean this could also speak for committed
Speaker 1: relationships as well. But if you're feeling lonely and disconnected
Speaker 1: in your relationship, that doesn't mean you should leave, but
Speaker 1: it should mean that something is not right, something is
Speaker 1: not happening, there's a need that's not being met, and
Speaker 1: if you don't start actively having those open conversations about it,
Speaker 1: it's going to build and build and build. So I
Speaker 1: think noticing where I feel lonely even with my partner.
Speaker 1: Doesn't make it always their fault that they're doing something wrong.
Speaker 1: But there's something here that is not expressed on my end,
Speaker 1: and what is that? And if I express it? How
Speaker 1: do they respond? Are they dismissive? Are they open? Do
Speaker 1: they want to hear? Are they like, sorry, this is
Speaker 1: all I can give you? And sometimes we need to
Speaker 1: actually listen to what they're saying. If they're saying this
Speaker 1: is all I can give, at what point do I go, Okay,
Speaker 1: is that enough for me? No, so I'm gonna leave.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I think often there's this like acceptance that the other
Speaker 1: person can't give me what I want. But then it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: all right, well that's just all they can give.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true, And I'm like, what I'm hearingto
Speaker 2: is like that honesty, the transparency is what you really need,
Speaker 2: and also the receptivity of yeah, okay, is this person
Speaker 2: really to hear what my needs are? And then if
Speaker 2: not all, then I think you've got a lot of
Speaker 2: your answer ready.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if this is to have a partner, whether it's
Speaker 1: a situationship partner or you know, long term partner, if
Speaker 1: they're not workable. And when I say workable, it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, can they see their part in things? Are
Speaker 1: they interested to know how they impact you? If your
Speaker 1: needs aren't being met? Can they hear that without getting defensive?
Speaker 1: And this also comes to how you put it out
Speaker 1: there too, So you know, you've got to also take
Speaker 1: responsibility for am I coming at this in the past
Speaker 1: aggressive way? Am I being you know, sort of demanding?
Speaker 1: Or am I being too vague? The one I see
Speaker 1: a lot is people be too vague. They kind of
Speaker 1: put their needs out there, and this really like almost
Speaker 1: like you have to be digging to find what they're
Speaker 1: actually trying to say, and then they feel like they've
Speaker 1: been out there and said what they wanted and their
Speaker 1: partner's like, what, I had no idea that this is
Speaker 1: what you're trying to say. Well, you know, because it's
Speaker 1: so hard to put my needs out there, that I'll
Speaker 1: do it in it's really convoluted, like low key way
Speaker 1: that goes straight over the other person's head.
Speaker 2: Is it ever worth? And I mean again, like with
Speaker 2: the work that you've done with a lot of couples,
Speaker 2: is it ever worth trying to turn a situationship into
Speaker 2: a relationship or is it just better to just walk away.
Speaker 1: No, I think it's a great opportunity to turn a
Speaker 1: situationship into a relationship, Like I said at the beginning,
Speaker 1: where situationships can just be an inevitable part of the
Speaker 1: getting to know each other and deciding if this is
Speaker 1: something that I would like to commit to and turn
Speaker 1: into a long term relationship. So I think that it
Speaker 1: probably becomes more difficult to turn it into a relationship
Speaker 1: if it's been a really long term situationship where one
Speaker 1: person hasn't been happy about it. That's where there's you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of pain and her and so that
Speaker 1: have to be quite a bit of repair and a
Speaker 1: really intentional change in how we communicate our needs and
Speaker 1: how we respond to each other in order to have
Speaker 1: that change into a long term relationship. But not that
Speaker 1: that's impossible, but you'd both have to be willing to
Speaker 1: work on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: After the break, we unpack how to tell whether you're
Speaker 2: in a healthy or unhealthy situationship and what to do next,
Speaker 2: something that I am curious about, just in case anyone's
Speaker 2: tuning in and might be realizing that, oh shit, maybe
Speaker 2: I am in a situationship, or maybe they are in
Speaker 2: a situationship but they can't quite tell how to define
Speaker 2: it in a way. What are some concrete tools you
Speaker 2: give people to assess whether their current situationship is healthy
Speaker 2: or unhealthy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, this is a good one, because again, it
Speaker 1: really is going to be about putting things into your control.
Speaker 1: So it's like looking at so if we look at Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm in a situation ship I can't control, So we're
Speaker 1: not even going to look at what the other person does,
Speaker 1: like he does this, she does that.
Speaker 2: Which feels nice, Yes, well exactly.
Speaker 1: We love going oh yeah, but they do this, and
Speaker 1: we're going to completely sort of ignore that half of
Speaker 1: the situationship and we're only going to look at ourselves.
Speaker 1: So that's number one. It's like, okay, I need to
Speaker 1: if I want to get clear around if this is
Speaker 1: healthy or not, I need to first look at me. Now.
Speaker 1: Do I show up in this as authentically as possible?
Speaker 1: Like when I am upset about something, do I say it?
Speaker 1: When something makes me angry? Do I show it? Maybe
Speaker 1: I hide those things or maybe I show it too,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe I'm uncontained and I don't show it
Speaker 1: in the right way or in a way that can
Speaker 1: be heard. So first we're going to look at, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's my behavior like in this relationship? Do I feel
Speaker 1: proud of myself and the way I, you know, communicate
Speaker 1: and act in this relationship. The other one would be
Speaker 1: what is my sense of self and my self worth? Like? Now,
Speaker 1: it's not our partner's job to build our self worth.
Speaker 1: That's our own job, but based on particular behaviors and
Speaker 1: the way we're treated, our self worth can take a hit,
Speaker 1: you know. So I would be looking at, yeah, what
Speaker 1: do I think about myself as a person? Do I
Speaker 1: feel like my needs are important? Do I feel like
Speaker 1: I am a likable person, that I'm a good person.
Speaker 1: If the answer is no or I'm not sure to
Speaker 1: some of these, then I go, Okay, is that based
Speaker 1: on maybe some of the things that were happening growing up?
Speaker 1: Is that based on how I'm treated at work? Or
Speaker 1: is that based on you know, some of the ways
Speaker 1: my partner treats me, the things they say, or you know,
Speaker 1: the time and effort they give me. Yeah, So starting
Speaker 1: to look at is there an impact on my self
Speaker 1: worth and being in this Yeah, then we can start
Speaker 1: looking at the other person. So am I proud of
Speaker 1: that person? Do I have to respect and admiration for
Speaker 1: how they carry themselves, the way they treat people, the
Speaker 1: way they treat me? Like, these are a lot of
Speaker 1: important things, because if we have even in a situationship,
Speaker 1: if we're in a situationship with someone who you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, treats people kind of crap or like
Speaker 1: doesn't have much respect for certain things, or maybe behaves
Speaker 1: in ways that we don't really look up to. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's an interesting thought in itself. It is like, well,
Speaker 1: what am I doing here? You know, like okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we have fun together or whatever, but I don't really
Speaker 1: respect them, or like they don't drive me to be
Speaker 1: a better person, or you know, it's sort of not
Speaker 1: really going anywhere. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I can imagine as well, Like so people
Speaker 2: have now like gone through those questions which have been
Speaker 2: really great, and they've got this awareness, so they're like,
Speaker 2: oh crap, yeah, it is unhealthy. I see the bits
Speaker 2: that I need to take responsibility for. I can see
Speaker 2: the bits that I probably need communicate some impacts that
Speaker 2: the other person's doing to me. So what's next After
Speaker 2: building that awareness? It's like Okay, do they come and
Speaker 2: see someone like you or do they just have that chat?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I love it. I love it when
Speaker 1: people come in. I've even seen both partners of the
Speaker 1: situationship in together, which I love. That's great. You know,
Speaker 1: like people think that therapy like it's not a I
Speaker 1: guess really common thing for people to go, oh, let's
Speaker 1: go see a therapists together when we're in a situationship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I love the ones that have and I'm like,
Speaker 1: this is you know, particularly if it's something that you
Speaker 1: want to continue working through in yourself, whether or not
Speaker 1: that situationship last forever. There's a lot of learning you
Speaker 1: can get about how you have shown up in that
Speaker 1: dynamic and how they affected you and the type of
Speaker 1: sort of pitfalls that are common for people to fall in.
Speaker 1: So yeah, often people will nowadays and more likely to
Speaker 1: come in and see a therapist, which is great. But
Speaker 1: you can if you feel confident in your ability to communicate.
Speaker 1: I mean a step one would be to try and
Speaker 1: communicate it yourself. I think that's important and I think
Speaker 1: this is where people might struggle and if you're struggling
Speaker 1: with that, then usually therapy is a great place to
Speaker 1: kind of have a bit of a yeah, someone to
Speaker 1: help you be able to articulate things and help the
Speaker 1: other person to also listen and be able to kind
Speaker 1: of nut out some of the issues that have come up.
Speaker 1: But I think if you get to a place where
Speaker 1: you're realizing hmm, okay, I don't know if this is
Speaker 1: really working for me or I'm not happy with certain things,
Speaker 1: being able to say that really clearly is important because
Speaker 1: it gives the other person the opportunity to decide whether
Speaker 1: or not it's going to work for them. So if
Speaker 1: you sit on it the other person, actually they're not
Speaker 1: it's not fair on them totally. They're just going to
Speaker 1: keep doing what they're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're in a world of everything's good. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's so true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't. I was just gonna say I did
Speaker 1: want to do a little caveat there around we're not
Speaker 1: talking about like this. If we're going to sort of
Speaker 1: the place where there's abuse or abusive dynamics happening, then
Speaker 1: I think that it would be dealt with differently. So
Speaker 1: if you do your sort of introspective like reflective work around, Okay,
Speaker 1: what's going on here? How am I being treated, How
Speaker 1: is my self worth? What is my view of the
Speaker 1: other person? If you identify abusive dynamics, you know that
Speaker 1: are really unhealthy and probably quite painful to realize that
Speaker 1: might be happening. I think I would recommend going about
Speaker 1: it a different way because if there is a sort
Speaker 1: of a power dynamic or some type of domestic violence
Speaker 1: or abuse there, I think it's important that safety gets
Speaker 1: prioritized first, so you may or may not decide to
Speaker 1: directly communicate with that person.
Speaker 2: There is something that I am curious about because I think,
Speaker 2: you know, we all love our friends, and you know,
Speaker 2: we love when they get into relationships or if, let's say,
Speaker 2: if you know, a friend gets into a situationship that
Speaker 2: actually isn't looking good, Like, what do you do because
Speaker 2: it's this fine line right where it's like, it's not
Speaker 2: my business, it's their relationship. I shouldn't get involved. But
Speaker 2: then you have so much love for that person that
Speaker 2: you don't want your friend getting hurt.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So well what kind of things would you
Speaker 1: be seeing? I guess that's the question, is like, because
Speaker 1: sometimes we can just sort of see our friends new
Speaker 1: man or new girl and be like, not a big fan,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, versus like, oh, they're actually treating you badly,
Speaker 1: you know. So is it just the kind of like,
Speaker 1: oh I don't really get why you're with them, or
Speaker 1: is it like something is not great happening here?
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I reckon it. Yeah, obviously that will
Speaker 2: just depend on what people see. But I think what
Speaker 2: I've really noticed is like friends being like, oh they're
Speaker 2: not treating you. Yeah, okay, like I've seen the impact
Speaker 2: on you, because I've definitely seen that where friends get
Speaker 2: into relationships and I literally see them change and somewhat disappear,
Speaker 2: and it's really hard to see that.
Speaker 1: It's really sad. It is really sad, And I think
Speaker 1: having good friends around you that can tell you that
Speaker 1: is so important. But I get that there is this
Speaker 1: fine line and sometimes it can push people away when
Speaker 1: we're too honest. So I think it's about even balancing
Speaker 1: our own emotional reaction to seeing our friend, you know,
Speaker 1: diminish in a relationship that's not great. So if I
Speaker 1: can't manage my own whether it's anger, fear, pain about
Speaker 1: what's going with my friend, then when I talk to
Speaker 1: them about it, it's going to come out too strong.
Speaker 1: It's going to kind of muddy the waters, and they're
Speaker 1: probably going to either be not ready to hear it,
Speaker 1: so they're going to deny it and whatever, or it
Speaker 1: could push them into a shame or you know sort
Speaker 1: of thing where they then want a distance. So it
Speaker 1: would be about really regulating yourself first, yeah, and being
Speaker 1: able to go, Okay, what do I want my friend
Speaker 1: to get out of this, Like if my conversation with
Speaker 1: them when I leave, what do I want to leave
Speaker 1: them with? And hope that they really take in And
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest things would be, you
Speaker 1: know that I love and care for them, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then the other thing would be that I'm worried about them,
Speaker 1: and probably some pointers around the things that I'm worried about,
Speaker 1: So the things that I'm seeing or hearing that are
Speaker 1: making me worry and why it's making me worry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Because I think when people come in too strong and
Speaker 1: it's like you know, out of a good place, it's
Speaker 1: it doesn't sort of it leaves the more feeling judged,
Speaker 1: which is hard.
Speaker 2: And I think it's one of those aspects you were
Speaker 2: talking about before. Around there's certain things that are out
Speaker 2: of our control, like we can come with all the
Speaker 2: good intention, but yeah, it's just got to see how
Speaker 2: it all has in a way. Yeah, Yeah, it was interesting.
Speaker 2: You mentioned you spoke a bit about shame, and I
Speaker 2: think again, like when I was watching a lot of
Speaker 2: videos on Instagram and TikTok, I noticed a theme of
Speaker 2: shame or embarrassment that people feel after a situationship. So
Speaker 2: I guess I wouldn't want to hear from you, like
Speaker 2: what do you want to say to those people that
Speaker 2: are sitting in that at the moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's interesting that there's this almost like a
Speaker 1: self blame that comes with that. And I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if that's whether people are feeling shame that they didn't
Speaker 1: realize something was a situationship, or if it's more shame
Speaker 1: that they didn't I guess stand for themselves, like that
Speaker 1: they that they let their needs go by the wayside
Speaker 1: and that they prioritize somebody else, And then there's this
Speaker 1: kind of realization of like, oh, that person didn't really
Speaker 1: have my back and why was I so, you know,
Speaker 1: good to them. So I think there's a couple of
Speaker 1: things here. Is like the first one is the one
Speaker 1: where it's like I feel a bit bamboozled, like I
Speaker 1: thought this was a thing and obviously it wasn't. Part
Speaker 1: of that is I mean, that's life in terms of
Speaker 1: we will always be wanting to see the things that
Speaker 1: we want to see, and sometimes we're not ready to
Speaker 1: see the things that we don't. But it's also a
Speaker 1: learning experience. You know, I would be looking at Okay,
Speaker 1: was what did I miss? What were the things? So
Speaker 1: rather than looking at it with shame, it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's get curious. I think curiosity is such a great
Speaker 1: tool to use in so many different ways. But if
Speaker 1: I'm too stuck in my shame, I'm just beating myself
Speaker 1: up and I'm not learning anything. And I would want
Speaker 1: to learn from things and hopefully not have it repeat,
Speaker 1: or at least if it is repeating, I might be
Speaker 1: aware a bit earlier in the piece. So yeah, getting
Speaker 1: curious around what were the things that I missed? What
Speaker 1: were the things that maybe I could have done so
Speaker 1: maybe asked for more clarity or communicated in a way
Speaker 1: that really was more upfront in the beginning, or you know,
Speaker 1: not let my needs kind of be secondary. So there
Speaker 1: are things that I might have contributed to this in
Speaker 1: a non self blaming way. It's just this was my
Speaker 1: part in that interaction.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then the other side is that also, you know,
Speaker 1: if someone doesn't treat us, well, it's interesting that I
Speaker 1: feel ashamed about that. Yeah, that's their shame and they
Speaker 1: may not be ashamed in themselves and that's fine, but
Speaker 1: actually I'm carrying the shame for someone else's behavior.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow. Do you find that's a very common theme? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, particularly with you know, abuse and things like that.
Speaker 1: It's often the person who's been the recipient of abuse
Speaker 1: who feels in some way really ashamed of themselves, and
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a very deep wound to try
Speaker 1: and work through. But really it's when one person is
Speaker 1: acting so shamelessly, it's almost like their shame gets transferred
Speaker 1: over to us and we're the ones carrying the shame
Speaker 1: which actually has nothing to do with us.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's massive. Yeah, And I really love that
Speaker 2: you're speaking to kind of the healing piece that can come,
Speaker 2: you know. And I love that you spoke about curiosity
Speaker 2: because I think that is like, yeah, the greatest teacher
Speaker 2: that we can have. Yeah, and I'm curious to know
Speaker 2: from you, like, is there anything else that you would
Speaker 2: advise from someone coming out of a situationship in order
Speaker 2: to heal in a healthy way. Is there anything else? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think the idea of rejection or not being wanted
Speaker 1: or not being good enough is a big piece around
Speaker 1: the coming out of a situationship because it's usually if
Speaker 1: you're the one who wanted it to become something more
Speaker 1: or you know, and it didn't. There's this idea of
Speaker 1: like if I had been different, or if I had
Speaker 1: been better, or if I'd been more beautifulh blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: like if I'd been funnier, like maybe you know, there's
Speaker 1: this kind of like self deprecating part. So looking at
Speaker 1: this sort of I guess rejection in general isn't actually
Speaker 1: a statement on who you are. It's just a statement
Speaker 1: on where the other person is at and where you're at,
Speaker 1: and that it wasn't the right time, place or thing.
Speaker 1: And so we do kind of fill in these gaps
Speaker 1: where it then becomes like, oh, no, it was something
Speaker 1: wrong with me, rather than like this just wasn't something
Speaker 1: that that person wanted.
Speaker 2: Yeah totally.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we make that leap and it's really unhelpful.
Speaker 2: Yeah totally, And it's so easy to kind of like
Speaker 2: measure all together. And I think what I'm hearing it
Speaker 2: is like not to make it a personal attack on
Speaker 2: your identity, your worthy, but just to see it purely
Speaker 2: as oh, this was just a misalignment and yeah, this
Speaker 2: is just it's not going to work and that's okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do think that there is then that
Speaker 1: whole scarcity thing. So it's like, Okay, I've been rejected
Speaker 1: and that hurts and that's normal, and it's okay to
Speaker 1: feel like, oh, you know, that wasn't to be in
Speaker 1: a you know, have your moment with it. But then
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, where is it that I feel I'm
Speaker 1: now you know that there's something wrong with me, or
Speaker 1: that there's something other people wouldn't like, you know, like,
Speaker 1: there isn't this. It doesn't need to carry on as
Speaker 1: a theme. It's just sort of like in this one instance,
Speaker 1: it wasn't what they wanted and that's okay, you know
Speaker 1: that whole I don't have to be everyone's cup of
Speaker 1: tea type of thing. Yeah, yeah, and that can be hard,
Speaker 1: particularly what people pleases or people you know, really want
Speaker 1: to be liked and all of that stuff. It's hard
Speaker 1: to build that muscle of going yeap. I might not
Speaker 1: be everyone's cup of tea, but that doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: my cup of tea there is something wrong with it.
Speaker 2: There's no like consistency or stability like versus a secure one.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, so that's in a nutshell, the four main
Speaker 1: attachment styles. You can learn a bit more about it online.
Speaker 1: But if you sort of just reflect on what you
Speaker 1: act like when there's an argument with you and someone
Speaker 1: that you love, what are your fears, you know, and
Speaker 1: what is your way of coping, that would be a
Speaker 1: pretty good way to start having a think about what
Speaker 1: your attachment style is, and you know, thinking about your
Speaker 1: family relationships and the family you grew up in. You know,
Speaker 1: do I feel close and connected to my primary care givers?
Speaker 1: And based on where you're at and what your attachment
Speaker 1: style is, you will be able to know whether a
Speaker 1: situationship is going to work for you or whether that
Speaker 1: would actually be very stressful.
Speaker 2: I loved how Sarah gave us a lot of clarity
Speaker 2: around a topic that can feel like you're caughting a
Speaker 2: bit of a gray area. You can find links to
Speaker 2: Sarah's work in our show notes. If there's a topic
Speaker 2: you would like us to discuss or I guess you
Speaker 2: think would be a great fit for this podcast. Please
Speaker 2: get in touch with us at podcast at momamea dot
Speaker 2: com dot au or sliding to our dms on Instagram
Speaker 2: at but Are You Happy? Podcast? Also, if you haven't already,
Speaker 2: would love a review on app or Spotify. It really
Speaker 2: helps the show to grow, and of course, if there's
Speaker 2: anything in today's episode that has brought up difficult feelings
Speaker 2: for you, organizations like Lifeline and Beyond Blue are always
Speaker 2: there for free and confidential support. Thanks for listening. Tune
Speaker 2: it again next Saturday for another episode of But Are
Speaker 2: You Happy? Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the
Speaker 2: land and waters on which this podcast was recorded