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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma Me's twice Darley news podcast,

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Speaker 1: The Quickie. Have you heard the name Nara Smith or

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Speaker 1: a place called Ballerina Farm? If you have, you may

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Speaker 1: already be across the world of internet tradwives. But even

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Speaker 1: if you're not, you may still experience something. Even the

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Speaker 1: most vocal supporter of equality has found herself asking I'm

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Speaker 1: a feminist, but does a part of me also maybe

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Speaker 1: you want to be a tradwife. We explore the mixed

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Speaker 1: feelings we have about tradwives, the worlds they create, and

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Speaker 1: the questions they force many of us to ask ourselves.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into a world of days gone by,

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Speaker 1: let's get the latest from the Quickie newsroom. Monday, August twelve,

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Speaker 1: the parents of one of the three girls murdered in

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Speaker 1: a stabbing attack at a Taylor Swift themed dance class

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Speaker 1: and the British town of Southport are calling for an

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Speaker 1: end to the violence that has broken out in the aftermath.

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Speaker 1: Alice da Silva Aguia was just nine years old when

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Speaker 1: a teenage boy attacked her and her friends at the

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Speaker 1: class two weeks ago. Days of riots have followed, with

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Speaker 1: far right activists claiming the suspect as a refugee, using

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Speaker 1: the moment to protest their anti immigration stance, even though

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Speaker 1: the suspect was actually born in the UK. Alice's parents,

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Speaker 1: Alexander and Sergio, asked the police chief to deliver a

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Speaker 1: message to the public asking for no more violence on

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Speaker 1: the streets of the UK in the name of their daughter.

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Speaker 1: The police chief said that he's ashamed and sorry they

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Speaker 1: even had to consider this message in the planning of

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Speaker 1: their daughter's funeral, adding he hopes anyone who's taken part

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Speaker 1: in the violent disorder should hang their heads in shame.

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Speaker 1: A new report shows twenty four hundred and sixty Australians

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Speaker 1: have accessed voluntary assisted dying since it was legalized in

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Speaker 1: their state or territory, but growing demand for the service

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Speaker 1: has led to calls for better streamlining the service. Voluntary

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Speaker 1: assisted dying is now legal in all states and territories

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Speaker 1: except for the Northern Territory. Chief Executive Officer of the

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Speaker 1: char Go Gentle Australia, who released the report says the

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Speaker 1: evidence points to a reassuring picture of systems fulfilling their aim,

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Speaker 1: with health professionals providing kind and meticulous support, and that

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Speaker 1: none of the dire predictions from opponents have eventuated. The

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Speaker 1: typical applicant is aged in their seventies, with a terminal

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Speaker 1: diagnosis like cancer, and slightly more likely to be men.

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Speaker 1: They were mostly well educated English speakers with four and

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Speaker 1: five impalliative care, but concerns have been raised over some

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Speaker 1: states gag clauses, which means health care providers aren't allowed

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Speaker 1: to bring up the subject of voluntary assisted dying with

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Speaker 1: their patients, saying many do not even realize it's an option.

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Speaker 1: Jord and Charles, who famously bowed a gold medal winner

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Speaker 1: Rebecca andrad on the gymnastics podium with some owne Biles,

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Speaker 1: has been ordered to return her bronze medal. Charles won

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Speaker 1: the medal for the floor exercise in Paris. Her third

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Speaker 1: place marred by controversy after her coach appealed her score

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Speaker 1: on the day, which vaulted her from fifth to third,

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Speaker 1: but the sport's highest court has now voided that appeal,

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Speaker 1: the IOC announcing they're reallocating the women's floor final bronze

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Speaker 1: to Romanian Anna Barbosu. The IOC says they'll now contact

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Speaker 1: the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee to organize the return

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Speaker 1: of the bronze, while a reallocation ceremony will be organized

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Speaker 1: through the Romanian Olympic Committee. Singer l King has spoken

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Speaker 1: out about her troubled relationship with her father, comedian Rob Schneider,

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Speaker 1: saying he sent her to a fat camp as a child. King,

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Speaker 1: who was mostly raised by her mother, Former model London King,

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Speaker 1: said in an episode of Bunny Exo's Dumb Blonde podcast

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Speaker 1: that she goes for years without speaking to Schneider, who

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Speaker 1: she only connected with as an adult, saying it's mostly

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Speaker 1: due to his opinions on social issues, suggesting he has

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Speaker 1: problems with homophobia. She explained that she was considered a

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Speaker 1: heavy child, so her dad sent her to a fat

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Speaker 1: camp where one year she got into trouble after spraining

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Speaker 1: her ankle, so she didn't lose any weight, saying the

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Speaker 1: relationship with her father was very toxic. The Pulse on Paris,

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Speaker 1: thanks to move by Mamma Mia, the exercise app, he'll

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Speaker 1: actually enjoy pools have returned to the podium for the

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Speaker 1: first time since twenty twelve, taking out the bronze medal

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Speaker 1: match against Belgium eighty five to eighty one. We also

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Speaker 1: picked up silver and bronze in the men's hair and

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Speaker 1: at the Belodrome, with Matthew Richardson and Matt Glaitza coming

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Speaker 1: in second and third in a games filled with amazing

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Speaker 1: moments from the Australian team. We finished fourth in the

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Speaker 1: medal tally with eighteen gold, nineteen silver and sixteen bronze,

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Speaker 1: behind the USA, China and Japan. But the talk of

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Speaker 1: the town after the weekend is Ozzie breakdancer Raygun, who

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Speaker 1: scored no points for any of her battles with her

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Speaker 1: kangaroo jumps and sprinkler moves. Singing superstar Adele even stopped

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Speaker 1: down her concert on the weekend to say that Raygun

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Speaker 1: was all that her and her friends were talking about,

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Speaker 1: dubbing it the greatest thing to ever happen to the Olympics.

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Speaker 1: The closing ceremony is now underway, this time in the

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Speaker 1: stadium not out along the river. Sen swimmer Kaylee McEwen

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Speaker 1: and sailor Matt Wirne carrying the flag for Australia, the

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Speaker 1: Olympic flame, which was collected by French swimming hero Leon

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Speaker 1: marchand will be extinguished ready to be lit again when

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Speaker 1: the Paralympics begin on August twenty eight. That's the latter's

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Speaker 1: news headlines. Next, traadwives are causing a stir all over

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Speaker 1: the Internet right now. But who are they really? And

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Speaker 1: are they exposing a simple truth about even the staunchest

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Speaker 1: of feminists that maybe we're a little bit jealous too.

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Speaker 1: The impeccably dressed, infinitely organized Nara Smith is standing in

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Speaker 1: her ultra clean kitchen, the place the majority of her

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Speaker 1: content is filmed. It's here that she's made things we

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Speaker 1: would simply pop to the shops Dubai, from nuggets and

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Speaker 1: fries to bubblegum lollies and ice cream. The almost satirical

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Speaker 1: ASMI delivery from Smith as she makes dishes from scratch,

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Speaker 1: has catapulted her to become one of the Internet's most

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Speaker 1: successful influences.

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Speaker 2: Let's make some lasagna from scratch. I started off by

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Speaker 2: making my mozzarella cheese. I added some milk centric asset

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Speaker 2: and ran it to my part. Let that set and

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Speaker 2: then sliced it all up transferred my kurds to a

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Speaker 2: cheesecloth to let all the weirdream out.

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Speaker 1: The South African born model lives with her husband, Lucky

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Speaker 1: Blue Smith, who's also a model. The pair, who met

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Speaker 1: while at work, married just six months after they began

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Speaker 1: their relationship, and they now have three children together, Rumble Honey,

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Speaker 1: Slim Easy, and little newborn Whimsy. Her husband is a

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Speaker 1: member of the Church of Latter day Saints aka Mormons,

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Speaker 1: but Nara claims she isn't strongly affiliated with the religion

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Speaker 1: and is still trying to figure it out for herself.

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Speaker 1: But she hasn't always been this way. Nara Smith used

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Speaker 1: to post videos of her eating in the car, saying

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Speaker 1: she doesn't want to cook for anyone as she downs

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Speaker 1: a fast food chain, burger and a hoodie.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to cook dinner. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: do cleanup tonight. I love eating food in the car.

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Speaker 1: But in a few short years, she's rebranded herself as

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Speaker 1: the face of a new generation of tradwives, women who

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Speaker 1: cater to their husbands and children's needs in a way

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Speaker 1: that reflects gender roles of the past, while also making

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Speaker 1: a lot of money doing so.

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Speaker 2: I've been craving a delicious red Mark Jacob's till back

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Speaker 2: since I woke up, so instead of going to the

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Speaker 2: store to buy one, I thought I would make it myself.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing that brings me more joy than cookie door

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Speaker 2: ice cream from those Joy for Your Fragrance by Charlotte

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Speaker 2: Tilbury reminded me.

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Speaker 3: Of just.

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Speaker 1: Nora claims she doesn't hire a team of people to

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Speaker 1: create the looks and aesthetics she portrays online, saying that

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Speaker 1: it's just she and her husband sharing responsibilities and that

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Speaker 1: everything they do is in partnership.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't aware of that finding joy and cooking from

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Speaker 2: her husband and cans would automatically mean that I just

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Speaker 2: slave away in the kitchen. I don't have a job,

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Speaker 2: and I have a whole production team at my house

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Speaker 2: making that happen. To clarify, none of that is true.

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Speaker 2: I'm a working mom gouging all kinds of hats and responsibilities.

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Speaker 2: A cooking has always been a massive part of my life.

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Speaker 1: This is a very similar message that we heard from

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Speaker 1: another Internet tried wife, Hannah Nieliman, recently, after a porter

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Speaker 1: from the Times visited her property known as Ballerina Farm.

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Speaker 1: Hannah used to be a ballerina at the prestigious Juilliard

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Speaker 1: School in New York who chose to move to a

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Speaker 1: farm in Utah to start a family with her husband, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: They now have eight children, and she too posts videos

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Speaker 1: that reflected treadwife life, like making meals from scratch and

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Speaker 1: homeschooling the children.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to my kitchen. We are going to be showing

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Speaker 4: you how to make butter. Start to finish. We've got

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Speaker 4: some fresh milk. I'm going to scrape the cream. I

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Speaker 4: have some cream from yesterday's milking than that we're going

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Speaker 4: to use too.

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Speaker 1: But the Times reporter found that maybe Hannah had signed

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Speaker 1: up for a life she didn't really want.

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Speaker 2: I asked her when we were standing on the side

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Speaker 2: of the mountain, is this what you always wanted to do?

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Speaker 1: Is this always where you wanted to be?

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Speaker 2: And she said that actually she wanted to live in

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Speaker 2: New York City, that was her dream, and she had

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Speaker 2: wanted to be a ballerina.

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Speaker 1: Daniel was a little bit more leading.

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Speaker 2: Actually, it was sometimes hard to ask her questions, sometimes

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Speaker 2: hard to get a direct answer from her without her

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Speaker 2: being interrupted, or hard deferring to her husband.

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Speaker 1: That's Megan Agnew senior feature's reporter from The Times. In

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Speaker 1: the article, she also claims Hannah is a wonderful mother,

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Speaker 1: but is run ragged, sometimes not able to even get

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Speaker 1: out of bed, she's so exhausted from her efforts to

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Speaker 1: keep up the farm and the family. Hannah Nielman has

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Speaker 1: hit back at the article, saying the reporter came with

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Speaker 1: an agenda that she wasn't aware of.

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Speaker 4: A Couple of weeks ago, we had a reporter come

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Speaker 4: into her home to learn more about our family and business.

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Speaker 4: We thought the interview went really well, very similar to

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Speaker 4: the dozens of interviews we had done in recent memory.

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Speaker 4: We were taken back, however, when we saw the printed article,

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Speaker 4: which shocked us and shocked the world by being an

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Speaker 4: attack on our family and my marriage. Nothing we said

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Speaker 4: in the interview implied this conclusion, which leads me to

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Speaker 4: believe the angle taken was predetermined.

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Speaker 1: So here we have two women, one who claims to

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Speaker 1: not be a tradwife at all, and one who does

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Speaker 1: seemingly live the tradwife life but maybe doesn't love her

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Speaker 1: life choices. The question is why are we so obsessed

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Speaker 1: with them? Are we angry that they're taking feminism backwards?

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Speaker 1: In living those traditional gender roles, roles that so many

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Speaker 1: women worked hard to break out of to be able

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Speaker 1: to live a life making their own choices. Or are

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Speaker 1: we upset that we have been forced to make career

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Speaker 1: choices instead of being able to stay at home with

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Speaker 1: our children because that choice has also been taken from us.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Edith Hill is an Associate lecturer in Learning and

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Speaker 1: Teaching Innovation at Flinder's University. Edith, can tradwives and feminism

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Speaker 1: exist in the same place? Can you be both?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: That is such a good and tricky question. I think yes,

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Speaker 3: two things can be true at the same time. But

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Speaker 3: when we think about tradwives, the argument of choice feminism

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Speaker 3: really which is, you know, women can make any choices

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Speaker 3: that they would like to make, even if that's getting

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Speaker 3: up at six am and making your husband's breakfast from scratch,

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Speaker 3: collecting the eggs, making me omelet all of that stuff,

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Speaker 3: milking the cow. But choice feminism really is a bit

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Speaker 3: of a difficult one, and that the choices are really

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Speaker 3: shaped by the unequal conditions in which we all live,

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Speaker 3: in which women live. But I do think you can

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Speaker 3: be a feminist and watch this content and enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: But of course, you have to have that critical lens

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Speaker 3: to really think about what you're consuming.

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Speaker 1: And why do you think maybe we've moved so far

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Speaker 1: away from when this was actually a struggle for the

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Speaker 1: majority of Australian women to appreciate what has happened over

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Speaker 1: time to get us to a point where we can

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Speaker 1: actually make this choice. So we missing the fact because

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Speaker 1: we're a bit too far removed from when this was

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Speaker 1: a real fight for women to be accepted in spaces

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Speaker 1: outside of the home.

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Speaker 3: I think that's definitely a potential. I think at the

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Speaker 3: moment with the state of the world, nostalgia is a

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Speaker 3: really powerful tool, and often within that we focus on

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Speaker 3: things that are the good parts of the past, about

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Speaker 3: being able to be comfortable and at home. And these

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Speaker 3: videos are very warm and inviting, and you can imagine

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Speaker 3: the food smells and the comfort and being at home

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Speaker 3: with your children, and for many people that's a really

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Speaker 3: appealing idea, but it's just not a realistic thing that

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Speaker 3: people can be aspiring to. Many of the women who

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Speaker 3: are quote unquote tradwives or call themselves that or in

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Speaker 3: this space have very wealthy partners. They have a lot

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Speaker 3: of privilege behind them to be able to make this

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Speaker 3: choice and it's not something that's realistic for the everyday person.

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Speaker 1: Is that the thing? Because there are so many women

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Speaker 1: in my circle in particular, and even I'm going to

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Speaker 1: include myself in this who are staunchly feminist and who

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Speaker 1: are absolutely working towards equality between genders, and yet there's

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Speaker 1: this a case where we look at these women who

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Speaker 1: seem calm and happy and organized and have time and

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Speaker 1: to get time with their children and don't seem to

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Speaker 1: be stressed by other life issues like you know, cost

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Speaker 1: of living crises and paying a mortgage. Is it that

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Speaker 1: little snapshot into people who are already wealthy who make

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Speaker 1: us want to not be a feminist for a minute,

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Speaker 1: who want a bit of that trade life. And it

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Speaker 1: feels so awful to say it out loud, but it's like,

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Speaker 1: I am a feminist, but do I occasionally want to

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Speaker 1: be a tredwife also? Maybe?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I don't think people should feel bad about having that feeling.

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Speaker 3: And I've felt it before and I'm trying hard to

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Speaker 3: also not feel bad about it self. Confessed baked bread

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Speaker 3: from scratch at home. I love cooking from scratch and

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Speaker 3: I love doing all of that stuff and I love

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Speaker 3: looking after my partner, but he does the same for me,

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Speaker 3: and I also work full time and do all of

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Speaker 3: that stuff as well. But whenever I'm feeling that like,

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Speaker 3: oh God, that does look nice, it's usually cause I'm

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Speaker 3: burnt out and I'm really tired. And that's obviously like

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Speaker 3: a personal anecdote, and that might not be the reason

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Speaker 3: behind everybody's feelings, of course, but I think it's really

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Speaker 3: easy to think like, Wow, that looks really nice, but

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Speaker 3: also to remember that there's a really massive level of

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Speaker 3: curation that goes behind this content to make it look

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Speaker 3: and feel the way that it actually looks. There's so

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Speaker 3: much personal branding and editing that goes behind the beautiful

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Speaker 3: sounds and the calm, and you're not seeing the kids

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Speaker 3: throwing up and you're not seeing, you know, being a

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Speaker 3: stay at home mum homeschooling six children and the stress

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Speaker 3: that it actually leads to do.

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Speaker 1: We also seem to ignore the fact that these women

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Speaker 1: who present these perfect tradwife lives are not actually tradwives

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Speaker 1: because they're also social media influences.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, this is something that when you mentioned it to

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Speaker 3: someone they usually go, oh wait, hang on, yeah, because

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Speaker 3: you're watching these videos as if you're like a fly

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Speaker 3: on the wall, like you're just watching someone in their

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Speaker 3: home doing what they're having this beautiful, calm life. But

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Speaker 3: in reality, after the video ends, the woman is then

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Speaker 3: going and like editing and posting and organizing brand deals.

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Speaker 3: And it's completely antithetical to the idea of a tradwife

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Speaker 3: because you're not just the home during the child rearing

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Speaker 3: and all the cooking and cleaning and all of that.

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Speaker 3: You're also potentially bringing in a large income. Definitely for

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Speaker 3: some of these women, they're making a lot of money

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Speaker 3: doing this as well, and they're contributing to their household

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Speaker 3: in that way too. But social media work is work,

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Speaker 3: and to become as successful as many of these women are,

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Speaker 3: they would be putting in many, many, many hours into

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Speaker 3: curating and creating this profile that they have online to

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Speaker 3: be that successful. So yeah, whether or not we can

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Speaker 3: actually call that a trad wife is a different question.

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Speaker 1: Are they also maybe just joking? You know, this is

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Speaker 1: kind of weird moment where you think, hang on a minute,

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Speaker 1: is she really just pulling my leg? This is just

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Speaker 1: all for content or for the gram or TikTok or whatever.

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Speaker 1: This is making her cash. Is this really her life

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Speaker 1: or is she really just putting on a show.

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Speaker 3: I think for some of them, they know what they're

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Speaker 3: doing and they're kind of pulling your leg a little bit.

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Speaker 3: But for other people, I do really believe that this

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Speaker 3: is their life and they are fully all in with,

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Speaker 3: you know, what they're saying and how they're putting forth

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Speaker 3: their ideas about their traditional woman and being at home

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Speaker 3: and being subservient to your husband, and I really think

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Speaker 3: these women are believing that. But then you have someone

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Speaker 3: like Nara Smith, who has some people call her like

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Speaker 3: the Queen of the Tribe wives, and she definitely knows

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Speaker 3: what she's doing. She's incredibly good at her job, and

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Speaker 3: again it is a job. She makes these videos and

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Speaker 3: some of them are like, oh yeah, I do believe

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Speaker 3: that you're needing that doll and you're doing this and

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Speaker 3: you're doing that. But she made coca cola from scratch,

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Speaker 3: and she made bubblegum from scratch, and you get to

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Speaker 3: a point where you're like, huh okay. But that also

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Speaker 3: little peak of self awareness really brings in that more

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Speaker 3: authentic feel to the rest of the content and the

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Speaker 3: rest of the brand. So it gets a little complicated.

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Speaker 1: What's your view on the whole Ballerina farm fallout, because

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Speaker 1: obviously a journalist went to see her on her property

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Speaker 1: and came away with some insightful thoughts about her life

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Speaker 1: not being as great as what it's portrayed via Instagram

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Speaker 1: and TikTok, and that in fact, she's really struggling and

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Speaker 1: this wasn't the life that she'd seen for herself. And

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Speaker 1: then she has to come out and defend her life

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Speaker 1: and say, no, this is what I wanted. My husband

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Speaker 1: and I are equals, and we are both you know,

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Speaker 1: changing diapers and doing all the things. How do you

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Speaker 1: feel about that whole scenario? We also victimizing or making

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Speaker 1: them out to be monsters, these tradwifs are and realistically

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Speaker 1: it's just a choice they've made.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the Valerin in the farms is a

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Speaker 3: very interesting example. I mean, I saw some of the

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Speaker 3: comments that people were leaving on her video after the

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Speaker 3: Times article came out. Some of them were deeply unproductive.

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Speaker 3: People were making edits of her as she was dancing

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Speaker 3: when she was a vallerina, and then edits of her,

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Speaker 3: you know, when she's obviously not aware she's being filmed

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Speaker 3: and looking a bit disassociated and comparing them and having

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Speaker 3: all this sound over it, making it seem like she's

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Speaker 3: this victim in this situation and she can't get out.

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Speaker 2: We have to save her.

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Speaker 3: And that is equally as unproductive as some of the

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Speaker 3: other discourse around tribalwives are just assuming that everyone's doing

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Speaker 3: the wrong thing, or assuming that they're these angels that

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Speaker 3: we hold up on pedestals of the ideal motherhood. You know,

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Speaker 3: any extreme sera really I think unproductive. There has to

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Speaker 3: be nuance in that conversation. It's an interesting one. It

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Speaker 3: really seems like the journalists who did that story kind

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Speaker 3: of had a specific story in mind when she went

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Speaker 3: to the farm, and I think Hannah from Valerina Farms

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Speaker 3: made that clear that she wasn't really aware of what

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Speaker 3: that angle was going to be. But for some of it,

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Speaker 3: it was really eye opening to hear that, you know,

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Speaker 3: the husband had multiple people helping him on the farm,

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Speaker 3: but she didn't have anyone. And I wonder, is it

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Speaker 3: really a choice to be, you know, at home with

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Speaker 3: almost an entire schoolroom full of kids by yourself and

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Speaker 3: choosing not to have anyone help with the cooking, or

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Speaker 3: with any of the other you know, work that you're

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Speaker 3: doing around the home. So that's a little interesting. I

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Speaker 3: guess it's like, unless you're there in the house, you

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Speaker 3: really don't know what's happening. But again, if you go

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Speaker 3: back to the idea of the choice feminism, it's like,

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Speaker 3: if she's made that choice in that situation, great, But again,

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Speaker 3: those choices are really shaped by some kind of unequal conditions.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of other things that go into it,

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Speaker 3: with family, with religion, with social contact, with upbringing, all

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Speaker 3: of that that is really impacting how someone or how

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Speaker 3: a woman would be making that choice for themselves.

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Speaker 2: She knows a woman's please has read there nine.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for taking some time feeding your mind with us today. Also,

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Speaker 1: up today. The Cookie is produced by me Claire Murphy

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Speaker 1: Tom Lyon.