Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. I could sense something,
Speaker 1: I suppose like brewing on the horizon. I know that
Speaker 1: sounds quite quite dramatic, but I could sense something nebulous
Speaker 1: about to happen. And I think that's why, you know,
Speaker 1: part of the reason I went to get a mental
Speaker 1: health care plan was because I was rereading some of
Speaker 1: the stuff that I'd written. And yeah, I always get
Speaker 1: complimented on like how energetic and vivacious and fun I am,
Speaker 1: And the stuff I've written was actually really fucking dark.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to No Filter. I'm kateline Brook and
Speaker 2: today I'm talking to ter Rea pit Now. Teria has
Speaker 2: been called many things, inspiring, resilient, extraordinary, but today she's
Speaker 2: proudly calling herself selfie. After surviving an accident that changed
Speaker 2: her life forever, Teria built a career as an author, speaker,
Speaker 2: and athlete. But this story isn't about the fire. It's
Speaker 2: about what came after, the mental load, the burnout, the guilt,
Speaker 2: and the realization that being selfless was slowly destroying her.
Speaker 2: In this conversation, Teria opens up about learning to put
Speaker 2: herself first, setting boundaries, and why choosing yourself isn't selfish,
Speaker 2: it's survival. This is ter Rea Pit. Ter Rea Pit,
Speaker 2: welcome to No Filter.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: It's a great medium for you because you are quite
Speaker 2: unfiltered in your expression of yourself.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I don't know if that's a compliment, but
Speaker 1: I'm going to see it as one. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2: Well, obviously on this podcast it's the ultimate compliment. Yes,
Speaker 2: But in life it's a rare commodity, really increasingly rare.
Speaker 2: I mean, you've always been very open with how you've
Speaker 2: brought yourself to the public, but this is really if
Speaker 2: you ever want to make the people that you live
Speaker 2: with nervous, your husband, your children, I suggest that you
Speaker 2: pull out this book, your new book, which is called
Speaker 2: Selfish Selfish. My husband's like, why are you reading that?
Speaker 2: It makes them nervous?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what. There was a bit of tension
Speaker 1: inside myself with how because you know, there's stories in
Speaker 1: there about Michael. There's less stories about my kids, but
Speaker 1: there are still some stories in there. So for me,
Speaker 1: whilst personally I am a public person, I share my story,
Speaker 1: I post on social media, I do podcasts, I write,
Speaker 1: I create content, I do advocacy work, so I'm a
Speaker 1: public person, but I also need to remember that my
Speaker 1: family aren't public, if that makes sense. Like my husband,
Speaker 1: well he's not my husband, Michael isn't an influencer. You know,
Speaker 1: my kids aren't in my content. So there was a
Speaker 1: little bit of tension within myself, I suppose about that
Speaker 1: tightrope that I had to walk.
Speaker 2: Yes, because you in the book, you delve very deeply
Speaker 2: into the inherent tension that a lot of women in
Speaker 2: particular feel in their lives now, which is how you
Speaker 2: serve yourself and how you serve those around you who
Speaker 2: you love. And in fact, even though you said you
Speaker 2: don't talk about your boys too much, hack of I,
Speaker 2: your eldest son provided the launching pad he did for
Speaker 2: this discovery over the hot chocolate.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it was one of those nights which you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure so many people can relate to, but especially
Speaker 1: if your parents, both parents come home after a big
Speaker 1: day at work. You're both absolutely shattered, but the kids
Speaker 1: are you know, everyone's hungry. You haven't started making dinner,
Speaker 1: so you know, I start getting the stuff out of
Speaker 1: the fridge, start cooking dinner, and I look over at
Speaker 1: my husband, sorry, at my boyfriend, you're not husband at
Speaker 1: my spunky man and he's sitting on it. He's sitting
Speaker 1: on the couch, and I have this thought, and it's
Speaker 1: probably reflective of my headspace at the time, but I think, oh,
Speaker 1: that'd be nice, you know, that'd be nice to be
Speaker 1: able to sit down and sit down on the couch
Speaker 1: and decompress after my day. But no, I've got to
Speaker 1: cook dinner. So I cook the dinner. Everyone sits down
Speaker 1: at the table, We eat the dinner, we start clearing up,
Speaker 1: and then my eldest son, Hukkavay, he was only four
Speaker 1: years old at the time, he says that he wants
Speaker 1: a hot chocolate. So I say, yeah, no, worries, mate.
Speaker 1: So I start getting out the hot chocolate materials and
Speaker 1: he looks at the brand of the hot chocolate that
Speaker 1: I've bought and you, guys, that's the wrong one. And
Speaker 1: because by this time I'm so stressed, tense, overwhelmed, cranky
Speaker 1: and snarky, I retort back to him, well, why don't
Speaker 1: you ask your dad to buy you the brand of
Speaker 1: hot chocolate that you like? And quick as a flash,
Speaker 1: he comes back to me and he says, no, that's
Speaker 1: your job. And I would always I had always considered
Speaker 1: Michael and I to have an equal relationship. I considered
Speaker 1: myself to be a feminist. I thought we were doing
Speaker 1: a pretty good job at raising our voice. But yet
Speaker 1: somehow my four year old son had identified that it
Speaker 1: was mum's job to remember the brand of hot chocolate
Speaker 1: that he liked. And so that night I was a
Speaker 1: little bit of a spiral because I felt like no
Speaker 1: matter how diligent I was, no matter how hard I tried,
Speaker 1: no matter if I got up earlier in the morning
Speaker 1: and meditated, no matter if I set my day up
Speaker 1: with intentions, no matter if I, you know, planned out
Speaker 1: my day meticulously, something would always fall through the cracks.
Speaker 1: And I also I didn't really like who I was
Speaker 1: at the time, because I was often stressed and shitty
Speaker 1: and annoyed and overwhelmed and overworked. And I like, I
Speaker 1: feel so like you, Kate, like I got a second
Speaker 1: chance at life, right, but I wasn't enjoying it because
Speaker 1: I was always shitty and annoyed, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: enjoy my life. That my second chance that I get
Speaker 1: to have with my spunky man and my beautiful kids,
Speaker 1: that I wanted to be well playful and more energetic
Speaker 1: and more uplifted and more joyful. And so that was
Speaker 1: I suppose a catalyst for this book.
Speaker 2: And so when that moment, sometimes you only recognize things
Speaker 2: in retrospect. Yeah, Like, did that moment hit you in
Speaker 2: the moment, even with all the you know, a tendant
Speaker 2: kafuffle of trying to make dinner and exhaustion or whatever.
Speaker 2: Did it hit you at the moment or was it
Speaker 2: later on upon reflection that you went, hang on a minute.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was when everyone was in bed and I
Speaker 1: sat down at the kitchen table, and I remember feeling
Speaker 1: really sad, really sad, and I was drinking I was
Speaker 1: drinking wine at the time. I just started like tapping
Speaker 1: out my thoughts and my feelings and how how I
Speaker 1: felt at the time this tension in my life. I
Speaker 1: was running around like a headless chicken, trying to do
Speaker 1: everything for everyone else, spending my whole day being a
Speaker 1: good boss, being a good person, being polite, not rocking
Speaker 1: the boat, being a good friend, not forgetting birthdays, checking
Speaker 1: in with my in laws. So I felt like I
Speaker 1: was doing everything that I was that I felt like
Speaker 1: I was supposed to. But then if I didn't do
Speaker 1: one little thing, then all of the things that I
Speaker 1: did do right right noticed or weren't appreciated interested.
Speaker 2: Yes, so the exceptions to what you've done are the
Speaker 2: things that get picked up on exactly, rather than the
Speaker 2: million things you have done. So even with like hack
Speaker 2: of eye, it was he noticed that you didn't get
Speaker 2: the right type of hot chocolate. But of course through
Speaker 2: a child's eyes, they're not noticing that you've just picked
Speaker 2: them up and dropped them off and that you're making
Speaker 2: dinner in your whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like it's not it's not a child's job
Speaker 1: to you know, especially not a four year old to
Speaker 1: be like, oh, you've done you know, you've worked all
Speaker 1: day and yes, you know you've got to give yourself
Speaker 1: a break and you've cooked it. Like that's what my
Speaker 1: girlfriends are for. I suppose that's what girlfriends are for,
Speaker 1: you know, to give you that little pep talk. And
Speaker 1: also that's what my man's for too. So it's not
Speaker 1: it's not a child's job. But I suppose when I
Speaker 1: embarked on this selfish journey, I realized that I had
Speaker 1: to stop posed waiting, yes, waiting for someone to notice,
Speaker 1: waiting for someone to praise, waiting for someone to say, hey,
Speaker 1: you've worked really hard today. You need to break yes.
Speaker 1: And I had to carve that out for myself.
Speaker 2: You say in the book, And I think this will
Speaker 2: resonate with so many people. I've tried to be selfless,
Speaker 2: to put other people's needs ahead of my own, and
Speaker 2: I think in many ways it's been catastrophic for me personally.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's extraordinary. Yeah, because I became burned out. I
Speaker 1: was really burned out, and that because I didn't didn't
Speaker 1: get help, didn't get the mental health support that I needed,
Speaker 1: I ended up being really depressed. That's why it was catastrophic,
Speaker 1: because up until that i'd been I felt like I'd
Speaker 1: been doing everything right. You know, I'd been a good partner,
Speaker 1: a good mom, a good friend, a good daughter, checking
Speaker 1: in on others, making sure everyone else was comfortable. And
Speaker 1: if something made me uncomfortable, or if I didn't want
Speaker 1: to do something, I would just absorb that, you know,
Speaker 1: I would just expect myself to be able to resolve
Speaker 1: that internally. Or I would expect myself to not make
Speaker 1: a big deal. Don't be a drama queen, don't be
Speaker 1: a diva, be easy going.
Speaker 2: So what sort of things, Terria.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll give you an example. So lots of people
Speaker 1: recognize me and they say, oh my gosh, Terria, I
Speaker 1: love your work, You're awesome, and I'll say, thank you.
Speaker 1: That's really lovely, you know. I genuinely love it when
Speaker 1: people say that to me. But on the other side
Speaker 1: of the equation, I also get people come up to
Speaker 1: me and they say, oh my gosh, what happened to you?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, will you burnt? Oh my gosh, that's
Speaker 1: such a crazy story. And what I would do is
Speaker 1: I would placate them, so I would answer the questions,
Speaker 1: and I perversely, I wouldn't want them to feel bad,
Speaker 1: so I do all this extra work to try and
Speaker 1: make them feel comfortable for asking what is probably you know,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be proud if my boys went up to
Speaker 1: a stranger and asked those types of questions. But I
Speaker 1: suppose when I started to notice that I was at
Speaker 1: the park with my son and a woman came over
Speaker 1: to me and started asking me a lot of those questions,
Speaker 1: and I could feel my son squeezing my hand, trying
Speaker 1: to pull me away and saying, Mommy, can we go?
Speaker 1: Can we go? And so I sort of. I suppose
Speaker 1: it's strange because I've written this book about being selfish
Speaker 1: and I'm encouraging other women to be selfish and to
Speaker 1: stop waiting for permission from other people. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I'm still not very good at being selfish,
Speaker 1: even though I've written this, I've written this whole bloody
Speaker 1: book on it. But it was easier for me to
Speaker 1: set boundaries and to do things when it was for
Speaker 1: my kids, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Often I think we'll advocate on half of others.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, we'll draw.
Speaker 2: A line in the sand on behalf of others that
Speaker 2: we won't do for ourselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why I thought about
Speaker 1: the example I was setting for my kids. I was
Speaker 1: teaching them that the stranger asked them a question that
Speaker 1: they weren't comfortable with, they had to answer it, and
Speaker 1: not only that they had to be polite about it,
Speaker 1: and not only that they had to make the stranger
Speaker 1: feel good about asking this feel okay. Yeah. So now
Speaker 1: if someone says that to me, I just say I
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it, which feels so rude,
Speaker 1: and it feels like I'm being a really big bitch.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I notice that I feel
Speaker 1: proud of myself too for drawing that boundary.
Speaker 2: When you are in public as other people are who
Speaker 2: have had burns or who have had some kind of
Speaker 2: physical trauma happened to them, yea, that they wear that
Speaker 2: they can't hide from the world, Like as we all
Speaker 2: know the world, it's all crawling around full of internal trauma,
Speaker 2: but that can't be seen from the outside. Yeah, there's
Speaker 2: something about when you have the face that you present
Speaker 2: to the world has a story to it that people
Speaker 2: feel that they can intrude upon that. And in your book,
Speaker 2: in which you so in your quest for selfishness, you
Speaker 2: go on it is a real quest. So you examine
Speaker 2: so many aspects of your life, your relationship with alcohol,
Speaker 2: your relationship with your phone, the division of household chores
Speaker 2: with Michael. And one of the things that you talk
Speaker 2: about which was really interesting was I think it came
Speaker 2: out of your therapy, maybe that every time you have
Speaker 2: to share your trauma with a stranger, you end up
Speaker 2: reliving that trauma yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I you know, I'd read about microaggressions a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, which is something that I think
Speaker 1: it was first brought to my attention by Carlie Finley.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I love Carly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's awesome, she's an advocate, she's fucking amazing. So
Speaker 1: it was first brought to my attention, and when I
Speaker 1: first read about it, I got to say I didn't
Speaker 1: quite understand because at the time, I was like, well,
Speaker 1: it's just a question, like, you know, the person didn't
Speaker 1: mean it. It's just a question how bad can it be?
Speaker 1: But what I realized now is because I've lived with
Speaker 1: burns for like close to fifteen years, the reason they're
Speaker 1: called microaggressions is because they have this cumulative effect. And
Speaker 1: You're right, every time someone, you know, I might be
Speaker 1: at the going for a surf and I'll be frothing.
Speaker 1: I'll be like, can't wait to get out there, and
Speaker 1: someone will say, hey, what happened to you? And then
Speaker 1: even though I was keen and excited to go for
Speaker 1: a serf, now mentally I brought back to, you know,
Speaker 1: the trauma that I've survived. So it can be quiet jarring.
Speaker 1: But it's also not like I can't expect every single
Speaker 1: person to not ask me those types of questions, right, No, Like,
Speaker 1: obviously that's going to be ideal. It's not going to happen.
Speaker 1: But what I can do is I can realize that
Speaker 1: people can ask that question, and I can also just
Speaker 1: shut it down and just say I don't want to
Speaker 1: talk about it.
Speaker 2: You must get told all the time that you're an inspiration.
Speaker 2: Is that a blessing or a curse? Does it confine
Speaker 2: you to feel that you have to live in a
Speaker 2: certain way? How do you feel about about inspiration?
Speaker 1: You know, when people say that they admire me, they
Speaker 1: respect the work I've died, that they find me inspiring,
Speaker 1: that's that's really like lovely and amazing, and I like
Speaker 1: to hear it. If I'm feeling down or I'm having
Speaker 1: a shit day, I can feel like a bit of
Speaker 1: a fraud. This person thinks I'm inspiring, but I feel
Speaker 1: like my day has just been a shit show, so
Speaker 1: I don't feel inspiring at the time. I think when
Speaker 1: people say, like if I'm at the shops and I'm
Speaker 1: getting like minced meat from my spag while that I'm
Speaker 1: cooking my boys and someone says, oh, you're so brave,
Speaker 1: I I just couldn't leave the house if what happened
Speaker 1: to you happened to me. I find that kind of
Speaker 1: applause really off because I feel like I'm being commended
Speaker 1: for doing a really ordinary, basic task that most people
Speaker 1: would do and not really think about. So I don't
Speaker 1: like those circumstances. But I think I'm normally getting caught
Speaker 1: inspiring or brave, I suppose for the work that I've
Speaker 1: done or the things that I've done. And I think
Speaker 1: if I look at it objectively, then yes, I am
Speaker 1: brave and I am inspiring. So I'm okay with it.
Speaker 2: To repeat you are extraordinary.
Speaker 1: I'll take that too, Kate, thank.
Speaker 2: You so in your quest. And I just also want
Speaker 2: to say the territory that you're charting in the book
Speaker 2: is very interesting because it's certainly not a treatise on,
Speaker 2: you know, burning down the village and leaving everyone to
Speaker 2: fend for themselves. You're not advocating that at all, No,
Speaker 2: But you know what I mean, that is the association
Speaker 2: that we have with the notion of selfishness. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: what you're talking about is serving yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, looking after your well being, making sure that you're
Speaker 1: doing okay. And you know, sometimes we don't live near
Speaker 1: any family members, and Michael will go away for work
Speaker 1: and so I'll be solo parenting for two weeks. In
Speaker 1: the morning, sometimes I can feel myself start to get stressed,
Speaker 1: start to get overwhelmed because I think about all the
Speaker 1: work that I have to do. I've got to get
Speaker 1: the kids ready for school, do their lunches, all of
Speaker 1: those things. And now, instead of being really hard on myself,
Speaker 1: I say, well, what's going to make this day a
Speaker 1: bit easier to reach? Yeah? And sometimes the answer is, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to take my kids to after school
Speaker 1: sports today, or we're just going to get pizza tonight.
Speaker 1: And sometimes that doesn't feel good, particularly when you are
Speaker 1: if you like me, and you're an overachiever and you
Speaker 1: like to do things properly and you like to excel,
Speaker 1: stripping back, taking your foot off the pedal, giving yourself
Speaker 1: that permission to not take your kids so they're after
Speaker 1: school sports, or not cook a home cooked meal. That
Speaker 1: doesn't feel good all right, But I also know that
Speaker 1: that's what I need to do to look after myself
Speaker 1: in that moment.
Speaker 2: When you have made a decision like that, Often I
Speaker 2: think we anticipate that the response of the world around
Speaker 2: us will be judgemental or horrified or disappointed or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And this is what I realized last year.
Speaker 1: I was really badly burnt out. I had so many
Speaker 1: people offer me help when Michael was away working. I said, no,
Speaker 1: I'm good, I've got it. I suppose I had this
Speaker 1: idea in my head that I'd beaten the fire, so
Speaker 1: like solo parenting and running a business not that fucking hard.
Speaker 1: And so there was this story going in my head like,
Speaker 1: stop being a pussy, Stop being a little bitch. You
Speaker 1: wanted kids, you wanted a family, you wanted a business.
Speaker 1: You've got it now, so don't fucking complain about it.
Speaker 1: That was this story I was telling myself in my head.
Speaker 1: And what I realized now after I suppose getting therapy
Speaker 1: and getting mental health support, is that asking people for
Speaker 1: help or support often they're really happy to help to
Speaker 1: start with. But also, if I had a deadline and
Speaker 1: it was tomorrow and I hadn't done the thing, I'd
Speaker 1: just stay up until midnight until it was done, because
Speaker 1: I said I was going to have it to them tomorrow.
Speaker 1: And now I'm like, I won't have it to you tomorrow,
Speaker 1: but I can have it to you next week. And
Speaker 1: the answer pretty much always has been no worries. Like
Speaker 1: too easy. So I realized, Fuck, how much harder have
Speaker 1: I made my life for myself by being so so binary, right,
Speaker 1: by being so driven, by being such a such a
Speaker 1: stickler for the unwritten rules.
Speaker 2: But I think it's possibly twofold in you, because you're obviously,
Speaker 2: as you said, a very driven person, very disciplined. But
Speaker 2: do you think you also took on post your continuing recovery,
Speaker 2: your continuing treatments. Do you think you also took on
Speaker 2: I need to show that I'm capable of doing all
Speaker 2: these things that I would have been able to do before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, And it was I suppose I wanted
Speaker 1: to prove that to everyone else, like, hey, I know
Speaker 1: I've got a disability, but I can still do everything.
Speaker 1: And you know, when Michael's around, I can kind of
Speaker 1: pretend I don't because I can be cocking. I can say, hey,
Speaker 1: D can help not this jar ofd pasta sauce. He'll
Speaker 1: come and do it. But when he is not there,
Speaker 1: I'm like, fuck, I can't open this, you know, And
Speaker 1: that's not good for my ego either.
Speaker 2: No, to come face to face with those limitations that
Speaker 2: once again pivot you back to a point of trauma.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose. I don't find like not being able
Speaker 1: to do things. I don't find it traumatic, but I
Speaker 1: do find it frustrating. It does frustrate me when I
Speaker 1: can't do things that I used to be able to do.
Speaker 2: After the break to reasshares how reading through some dark
Speaker 2: journaling trees became the moment she realized she needed to
Speaker 2: ask for help. When you started on this questioning really
Speaker 2: of how you could return yourself to yourself and start
Speaker 2: to enjoy this life that you had built and that
Speaker 2: you had dreamed off, but that you weren't enjoying, do
Speaker 2: you think at that point you knew inside yourself that
Speaker 2: you were getting wobbly?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, yeah, of course, I think I definitely did.
Speaker 1: I think that's part of the reason why I set
Speaker 1: out on this project to be selfish, because I could
Speaker 1: sense I could sense something like brewing on the horizon.
Speaker 1: I know that sounds quite quite dramatic, but I could.
Speaker 1: I could sense something nebulous about to happen. And I
Speaker 1: think that's why, you know, part of the reason I
Speaker 1: went to get a mental health care plan was because
Speaker 1: I was rereading some of the stuff that I'd written,
Speaker 1: and I, yeah, I always get complimented on, like how
Speaker 1: energetic and vivacious and fun I am. And the stuff
Speaker 1: I'd written was actually really fucking dark, right, you know,
Speaker 1: I've got I've got so many good girlfriends that I
Speaker 1: love and I don't. And I called one of them
Speaker 1: and I kind of told her what had been going on.
Speaker 1: She was the one who encouraged me to go get
Speaker 1: a mental health care plan.
Speaker 2: When you spoke to her, what did you What were
Speaker 2: the headlines at that point?
Speaker 1: Oh? The headlines were like I just I just told
Speaker 1: her some of the stuff i'd written, like that I
Speaker 1: felt like I was in the way that I felt
Speaker 1: like I was an inconvenience, that I felt like I wasn't,
Speaker 1: I wasn't enough. Just stuff like that, which isn't, which
Speaker 1: hadn't been reflective of my everyday experience up until that point.
Speaker 2: And why do you think, I mean, there might not
Speaker 2: be an answer to this, but why do you think
Speaker 2: that it built to that crescendo?
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Maybe because, you know, because I told
Speaker 1: myself that I'd beaten the fire, so like normal life
Speaker 1: shouldn't be hard. Because I told myself that I didn't
Speaker 1: need help for anyone, and I could do everything by
Speaker 1: myself because I didn't have very good boundaries with strangers,
Speaker 1: but also people that I work with or people in
Speaker 1: my work life. Yeah, I think maybe those are some
Speaker 1: of the reasons.
Speaker 2: Because I find it so curious about you, A real
Speaker 2: tell about you.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, do I have it to well?
Speaker 2: I just think because psychologically, I think what you achieve
Speaker 2: is extraordinary anyway, even for someone who hasn't experienced what
Speaker 2: you've experienced. Like you've moved a family three times, you've
Speaker 2: lived on your own, you do marathons, you've got a
Speaker 2: running club, you know, you do everything, and yet you say,
Speaker 2: post the fire, none of these things should be hard. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but of course these things are also harder for you
Speaker 2: because it's post the fire. But you don't allow yourself
Speaker 2: that little bit of grace at.
Speaker 1: All, or you didn't no, And I think that's what
Speaker 1: I learn about burnout too, right, because I felt like
Speaker 1: I felt pathetic having burnout because whilst I did work hard,
Speaker 1: I wasn't like a surgeon working eighty hours a week, right.
Speaker 1: But what I learned about burnout is it's more common
Speaker 1: amongst women, more common amongst women who have really high standards,
Speaker 1: more common amongst women who are caring for others, so
Speaker 1: like kids or older parents are you know, even sometimes
Speaker 1: doing both at the same time. It's more common amongst
Speaker 1: women who are marginalized or who a woman of color
Speaker 1: or live with the disability. So when I learned all
Speaker 1: of that stuff, I suppose cogs started to turn in
Speaker 1: my mind. And no matter how long I've been screaming
Speaker 1: not it shouldn't be hard, it shouldn't be hard, it
Speaker 1: shouldn't be hard, it actually was fucking hard. Actually was
Speaker 1: really hard. Even though if I'm being honest, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: go on social media, you see everyone else's highlights reel
Speaker 1: everything else they're doing and achieving with eight kids. I'm
Speaker 1: thinking valerin a farm.
Speaker 2: Trad wives, the trade wife, the ciger, Like, how.
Speaker 1: Are they doing that? Their homeschool and eight kids. They're
Speaker 1: been doing ballet, They're doing ballet. They've got like they've
Speaker 1: got a body of a super bottle. They're just like
Speaker 1: they're out there milk and the cows. Even though I'm
Speaker 1: on social media, I know it's not I know it's
Speaker 1: not reflect I know it's not real. I suppose it
Speaker 1: does influence our our perceptions.
Speaker 2: Well. Also, when people would look at your highlight reels. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean I would think that of you.
Speaker 1: I try not to do that because I've been the
Speaker 1: person looking at social media feeling shit about my own life.
Speaker 1: So I try to be I hate this word, but
Speaker 1: I try to be likethentic. I tried to be myself.
Speaker 1: I tried to let people know that it's okay to
Speaker 1: ask for help, that it's okay if you're struggling, that
Speaker 1: it's okay if you're not coping. But this is the
Speaker 1: weird thing. I gave all of this really great advice.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're struggling to tell someone I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't take it. I didn't take it myself.
Speaker 2: But so often the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. Now that I've been through it, I
Speaker 1: don't want it to happen again. But I suppose now,
Speaker 1: after I was burnt, it was pretty fucking obvious why
Speaker 1: I would need mental health support. But I suppose last
Speaker 1: year the reasons, to me, at least, were less obvious.
Speaker 1: After what I've learned, I understand myself a little bit
Speaker 1: more after writing the book, I understand myself a little
Speaker 1: bit more. But I also think that there were some
Speaker 1: warning signs leading up to that right, So feeling like
Speaker 1: you've got no time in the day, and you get
Speaker 1: up at night and you try and work, but you
Speaker 1: can't do anything because your brain hasn't rested, it hasn't
Speaker 1: switched off. That could have been a warning side to
Speaker 1: me that something wasn't quite right. And so go and
Speaker 1: through that experience. I feel like if I get to
Speaker 1: that point again, I'll say, Okay, I think I know
Speaker 1: what I need. I need. I need some support, or
Speaker 1: I need to ask I need to get my kids
Speaker 1: into after school care two days a week just so
Speaker 1: I can get a bit of breathing space. Or I
Speaker 1: need to tell Michael how I'm feeling and so that
Speaker 1: he's going to take more of the load on it
Speaker 1: at home. Or I'm just going to fucking take a
Speaker 1: sick day at work and I'm not going to do anything.
Speaker 1: So I think I've got all of those strategies.
Speaker 2: Now, when you talk about Michael, who is himself a
Speaker 2: remarkable person, Yes, I would expect you to have a
Speaker 2: remarkable partner. How aware or unaware was he of what
Speaker 2: was going on with you when you were floundering.
Speaker 1: He was unaware. He had started a new job and
Speaker 1: he was working at big chunks of time, and I
Speaker 1: didn't want him to be like distracted or to have
Speaker 1: to worry about me because he'd started something, something new.
Speaker 1: And I suppose there's a bit of guilt there too,
Speaker 1: because whilst my life has changed, his life has also
Speaker 1: changed to And I was so happy for him, and
Speaker 1: I was so proud of him, and so I suppose
Speaker 1: I didn't want him to come back after two weeks
Speaker 1: of work and they'd be like, so I want to,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to tell you what's been happening
Speaker 1: with me. So I don't think I don't think he
Speaker 1: was aware.
Speaker 2: Was there a part of you as well that when
Speaker 2: he came back you didn't want to be the person
Speaker 2: that wasn't the capable person you'd always prided yourself on being.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. You know. I wanted to preach
Speaker 1: down that we'd been good, the boys had been happy,
Speaker 1: like the house had been running smoothly, work was going good.
Speaker 1: I suppose I wanted to present that to him so
Speaker 1: that he wasn't he wasn't worried about what was happening
Speaker 1: at home, so he could concentrate on his job. Again.
Speaker 1: In retrospect, that was a fucking stupid idea, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like because the more people in, the
Speaker 1: more you give them context, the more they understand.
Speaker 2: Yes, you know.
Speaker 1: And I could have said to Michael Haye when you
Speaker 1: go away, I really struggle, you know, and I don't
Speaker 1: want to struggle, and maybe we could have come up
Speaker 1: with some ideas at the time to help us navigate
Speaker 1: that that I just just closed everything off. And I
Speaker 1: didn't tell him because I thought I was doing the
Speaker 1: right thing, because I didn't want to worry him. But
Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking about what I needed. You know. I
Speaker 1: expected myself to just be able to solve it, just
Speaker 1: be able to deal with it, just be able to
Speaker 1: roll with it, just be able to navigate it, do
Speaker 1: it all myself, not tell anyone. And even if I
Speaker 1: didn't have any idea of how to cope, well fuck it,
Speaker 1: I had to. That was my mentality. And it didn't.
Speaker 1: It didn't turn out well, you know, it didn't turn out.
Speaker 2: Well, that never does that never does.
Speaker 1: I think I was so arogo because I was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I know everyone around me would say
Speaker 1: this is a bad idea, but I'm really confident that
Speaker 1: that me to reappear I can pull this off.
Speaker 2: What was the moment when you confess to him?
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't actually confess to him. I told
Speaker 1: him when I got a mental health care plan. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I told him that. And he's always been so supportive,
Speaker 1: so he was like, yeah, darl if that's what you
Speaker 1: need to do, that's a that's a great idea. You know.
Speaker 1: He's like the most the loveliest, kindest men, So he
Speaker 1: was so so supportive. And I suppose since I've come
Speaker 1: out of that fog, I've been able to share with
Speaker 1: him more and more about what last year was like for.
Speaker 2: Me, and has he been surprised by that.
Speaker 1: Michael was very unphased by like most stuff that happens,
Speaker 1: so he hasn't been like, oh my gosh, I can't
Speaker 1: believe that. He's just been like, oh yeah, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He's very, very very unfazed and unflappable. But it's interesting
Speaker 1: because when I was writing this book, and particularly with
Speaker 1: the mental load chapter, I sent out a survey and
Speaker 1: I think I got because like a thousand people responded
Speaker 1: to me, and I got an insight into how other
Speaker 1: people managed this stuff in their home lives. And while
Speaker 1: some of the women had tried to communicate with their partners,
Speaker 1: a lot of them actually didn't, you know, so maybe
Speaker 1: there's a lot of women out there.
Speaker 2: Here they kept it to themselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because again, you want to be you want to
Speaker 1: keep the family together, You want to make sure everyone
Speaker 1: else is okay. You just think I'll fucking slid it
Speaker 1: out myself at another point, you know, laid it down
Speaker 1: the track.
Speaker 2: Also, it's been kind of a it's a modern trap
Speaker 2: that I think we're more conscious of now, even if
Speaker 2: we don't necessarily act upon it.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. You know, in the nineties, I was
Speaker 1: raised by my mom. We moved here from Tahiti. I
Speaker 1: was raised by mom. I've got three brothers. She worked
Speaker 1: full time, she cooked dinner, the household ran smoothly, and
Speaker 1: every night she'd write. So that was my like, that
Speaker 1: was my role model growing up. And she never complained,
Speaker 1: never wined. She was stressed, She was stressed a lot
Speaker 1: of the time, but she just did it all. And
Speaker 1: I think Michael's mum was.
Speaker 2: The same too, same with my mother in law.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just what women did. And again that's part
Speaker 1: of the reason why I felt like a little bit
Speaker 1: because I was like all of these other women around you,
Speaker 1: all of these older women that you look up turning respect,
Speaker 1: they've all done this, they've been through it. But again,
Speaker 1: what was great about writing was that when I was
Speaker 1: sharing it with my mom, she said she was like,
Speaker 1: I was so unhappy. She was like, I just I
Speaker 1: couldn't let your kids know. But you never knew so unhappy.
Speaker 2: You never knew. No.
Speaker 1: And again, it's not a kid's job. It's not their
Speaker 1: job to make sure that your needs are met.
Speaker 2: And she actually says that to you. In fact, that
Speaker 2: whole part in your book where you go to Tahiti
Speaker 2: and you take your boys and your brothers are there
Speaker 2: and you yeah, that is a remarkable journey. But also
Speaker 2: you came back with such revelations there, including about your
Speaker 2: mom's life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because so mom moved back to Tahiti to look
Speaker 1: after her mom, and she lived on a little atole
Speaker 1: over there on our ancestral land, and she would time
Speaker 1: with these stories on the phone, and it sounded all
Speaker 1: sounded so idyllic, you know, like a nephew dropping around fish,
Speaker 1: she's going to her cousin's house to teach the kids English.
Speaker 1: It was this real network of kinship, everyone helping each other,
Speaker 1: and that's not what life feels like for the most
Speaker 1: part in our modern Western world. You know, you have
Speaker 1: a village, but you know it's after school care or
Speaker 1: it's something that you're paying for. And I realized that
Speaker 1: what I'd done up until that point is I tried
Speaker 1: to be selfless, put everyone needs before my own. But
Speaker 1: because everyone else was so busy and so involved with
Speaker 1: their life, they didn't have the capacity to check back
Speaker 1: in with me to make sure that my needs were
Speaker 1: being met too, So it was it was good. Mum's
Speaker 1: style works if you live in a traditional village, but
Speaker 1: with the way our Western world is set up for now,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it couldn't be better. I don't think
Speaker 1: it works, or at least it hasn't hasn't worked for
Speaker 1: me because when I've given and given and given, I've
Speaker 1: just ended up with the dregs at the bottom of
Speaker 1: the cup.
Speaker 2: And then she talked to you, which is such a
Speaker 2: great concept for everybody, and it's a Tahitian concept, or
Speaker 2: she uses the term your mana, is it yours?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Manna? Yeah manner, So manna is like a Polynesian
Speaker 1: concept and it's like you're you're in a force or
Speaker 1: you're your spiritual power. Right, maybe you could even think
Speaker 1: of it as like you're in a child or you
Speaker 1: know when people say you've got to protect protect your peace,
Speaker 1: have you ever heard that? Yes, yes, it may be
Speaker 1: a little bit similar. And so what I realized after
Speaker 1: talking with Mom, because I talked with Mom the whole
Speaker 1: way through this book, she gave me such insight for
Speaker 1: each different each different stage that I was at. But
Speaker 1: she said that I needed to restore my manner because
Speaker 1: I just been giving it away, giving it away, not
Speaker 1: having boundaries, doing this, doing that, not checking in with
Speaker 1: my own needs. And that's part of the reason why
Speaker 1: I was so depleted. She used a Tararitian She used
Speaker 1: Tarititian words for the laugh of me. I can't. I
Speaker 1: can't fucking remember what they they they. If I could
Speaker 1: have Revi, it would be a lot cooler, but I can't.
Speaker 2: But she recognized in you how depleted you were.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, because I told her everything that had been
Speaker 1: going on. So she said, you need to restore your manner,
Speaker 1: and how do you do that? Yeah, So she said,
Speaker 1: your manner can be restored. It's basically like self care. Right,
Speaker 1: So going for a walk with a friend, she said,
Speaker 1: like swimming in a river, and I was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know if she knows what Australia's like. It's not
Speaker 1: heaps of not. But also she said, your manner can
Speaker 1: be violated when there is an assault on your dignity.
Speaker 1: That sounded really hardcore, but with the boundaries thing, that
Speaker 1: did feel like a circumstance where my sensive dignity was
Speaker 1: being violated. Right.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. When she said that to you, did you
Speaker 2: put those pieces together straight away? Or it took a
Speaker 2: little while to recognize.
Speaker 1: No. No, Because I would speak to my mom. She
Speaker 1: would just download all of this Polynesian knowledge and information
Speaker 1: onto me and then I would say, Okay, I gotta
Speaker 1: go mom, And then I would think about it after
Speaker 1: and then write down some of it. So I didn't
Speaker 1: recognize it straight away at all. It was probably a
Speaker 1: couple of days after that. But I liked how I
Speaker 1: liked how seriously she took the idea right, and the
Speaker 1: words she used, like an assault on your dignity, your
Speaker 1: manner was being violated, they're quite strong. And even with
Speaker 1: this idea of self care, I had always assumed it
Speaker 1: was like bubble bas and like a trial step skin
Speaker 1: care regime and this and that. But self care is
Speaker 1: actually an idea that was popularized by the Black Panthers
Speaker 1: in America in the nineteen seventies, and they realized that
Speaker 1: if they were going to advocate for racial equality, that
Speaker 1: they needed to take care of themselves, and they looked
Speaker 1: at it as self preservation. So I think almost politicizing
Speaker 1: these concepts from me has made me take it more seriously.
Speaker 1: So if I go to the gym, I'm not just
Speaker 1: I'm not just fucking going to the gym. I'm looking
Speaker 1: after myself. That's what I need to do to preserve
Speaker 1: my sense of self. That's what I need to do
Speaker 1: to make sure that I'm okay in this crazy modern
Speaker 1: world that we navigate.
Speaker 2: Don't Go Anywhere. Next to Read discusses why women in
Speaker 2: particular are so prone to burn out when you are
Speaker 2: engaging in this concept of self care that I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people, a lot of women, let's say
Speaker 2: women might not teend to do because of being scared
Speaker 2: of being selfish. Did you address it with Michael and
Speaker 2: say this is what I'm going to start to do,
Speaker 2: or did you just do it, and was it even noticed?
Speaker 1: I just did it. I just did it, and it
Speaker 1: wasn't it wasn't noticed.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is the thing. I'd been waiting for
Speaker 1: someone to tap me on the shoulder and be like, hey, Teria,
Speaker 1: go for a run, you know, go out to lunch
Speaker 1: with your friends. Michael had never never stopped me from
Speaker 1: doing any of those activities before. I just felt like
Speaker 1: I wasn't entitled to it. And I know it's not
Speaker 1: just me. There's been so much literature down about how
Speaker 1: women and this is broadbrush Stokes Kate, so definitely not
Speaker 1: saying this is the case for every woman out there,
Speaker 1: but for most women, we don't feel entitled to take
Speaker 1: leisure for ourselves. And part of that is the idea
Speaker 1: that women are valorized for how selfless they are, yes,
Speaker 1: for how giving they are.
Speaker 2: Look at Mother's Day, Yeah, it's always a celebration of
Speaker 2: your cook you're cleaner, yep, you know, yep, yeah.
Speaker 1: How much you do for everyone else?
Speaker 2: And also, by the way, can I just say, I
Speaker 2: think there's a certain nobility in that, and there's a
Speaker 2: beauty in what a lot of women have, which is
Speaker 2: a nurturing capacity. I don't disrespect that at all, but
Speaker 2: when it comes to the point where it's actually depleting
Speaker 2: you and meaning that you're not enjoying your own life,
Speaker 2: because love is the most effective way of enslaving anybody,
Speaker 2: and you're living like a slave, then it's a problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I consider myself to be a nurturer and caring, beautiful, loving,
Speaker 1: compassionate woman. But we have this this idea or you know,
Speaker 1: women are placed on this pedestal for how much they
Speaker 1: do for everyone else, you know. So that's part of
Speaker 1: the reason why we don't feel like it's okay for
Speaker 1: us to go to the gym, or to catch up
Speaker 1: with a girlfriend for a coffee, or to go to polities.
Speaker 1: Even how we talk about women's fitness, you know, pilates
Speaker 1: for example, which is if anyone does pilarates, it's they
Speaker 1: know it's really fucking hard, but we almost talk about
Speaker 1: it in a condescending way. Or even with surfing, it
Speaker 1: gets I don't know if you've ever heard this, Kate,
Speaker 1: it gets called girfing.
Speaker 2: Oh when girls do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when girls go for a surf, it's.
Speaker 2: Like, oh, no, I haven't heard.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, you're going for a girf, like, how
Speaker 1: lucky are you? So again, we're not taking it seriously,
Speaker 1: we're trivializing it. We're saying, oh, well, guys are surfing,
Speaker 1: but women are down here because they're only girfing, and
Speaker 1: so you know, this is not going to be everyone's
Speaker 1: experience at all. But that was the literature that I
Speaker 1: found when I was writing this book.
Speaker 2: You know, because you're in a very happy relationship.
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm going to just jump in Kate, this is
Speaker 1: what I mean. I realized, Sorry, I realized how number one,
Speaker 1: how supportive Michael is. But we are in a happy relationship.
Speaker 1: Because when women wrote back to my mental load survey,
Speaker 1: the answers that I read, we're heartbreaking, you know, because
Speaker 1: some other women were punished, punished for broaching the subject
Speaker 1: of the mental load or for daring to have the
Speaker 1: audacity to suggest that their partnership in every now and again,
Speaker 1: so they were ghastly there was physical abuse. So for
Speaker 1: those women it wasn't it actually wasn't safe for them
Speaker 1: to talk with their partner about how they were going
Speaker 1: to share the mental load.
Speaker 2: And even putting those experiences to one side. For people
Speaker 2: that are in a traditional relationship and a happy one.
Speaker 2: There is a difference in my experience. And my husband's
Speaker 2: a most brilliant, you know, modern man who raised our
Speaker 2: kids when I was at work, you know, doing breakfast
Speaker 2: radio for twelve years or whatever, so he can run
Speaker 2: a household. He doesn't have weaponized incompetence except when it
Speaker 2: comes to washing. But in my experience, and I found
Speaker 2: myself in a very similar situation to you when our
Speaker 2: kids were little and I was working and I had
Speaker 2: four kids under six, And I said to Peter at
Speaker 2: the time, yeah, I said to Peter at the time,
Speaker 2: I remember this, Yeah, I feel like I'm working so
Speaker 2: that everyone else can have a beautiful life except me.
Speaker 2: And then it caused me to He was so shocked
Speaker 2: by that, right, because they don't necessarily see the same
Speaker 2: things as we discussed that we feel maybe we're good
Speaker 2: at hiding them, but also we expect men to be
Speaker 2: anticipatory of our needs the way our girlfriends are. Like
Speaker 2: a girlfriend will go, oh my goodness, you need to
Speaker 2: get away, you need to data, let's do a thing,
Speaker 2: let's do it. In my experience, men don't necessarily operate
Speaker 2: or see things the same way.
Speaker 1: No, and like thank fun, Thank fuck they dies, And like,
Speaker 1: you know, I recognize what a privileged position it is
Speaker 1: to be in to have a happy relationship, and then
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, he doesn't he doesn't operate in
Speaker 1: the way, yes, that I would like him to operate in.
Speaker 2: So I.
Speaker 1: Know that about Michael. Even though I know that I
Speaker 1: probably do still sometimes get shitty when he doesn't read
Speaker 1: my mind and get the groceries that I wanted, even
Speaker 1: though I didn't ask him for the things that I wanted.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I probably still do still do get shitty
Speaker 1: at him for stuff like that.
Speaker 2: But that's the message of your book, which was initially
Speaker 2: for yourself and now you're sharing it with others, is
Speaker 2: that the onus is on you to protect yourself, to
Speaker 2: recognize what your self needs and hints the selfish.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, if I was in burnout last
Speaker 1: year and someone said the onus is on you, Teria,
Speaker 1: to protect yourself, I probably would have told that person
Speaker 1: to get fucked, you know, because you're so you're so
Speaker 1: you're so overwhelmed, you're so stressed, you're so burned out.
Speaker 1: And so if people are in burnout right now and
Speaker 1: they're listening to this and they're thinking, go fuck yourself,
Speaker 1: ter Rea, I understand.
Speaker 2: They've got a long way through the podcast to me
Speaker 2: now thinking go fuck yourself to Rea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I understand. And there are some really great
Speaker 1: strategies out there that you can try to help alleviate
Speaker 1: that sense of burnout. But I would recommend the book
Speaker 1: on Burnout by the Nagosky Twins as a starting as
Speaker 1: a starting place. But ultimately I think the book is
Speaker 1: about looking after your own well being, protecting your peace,
Speaker 1: looking after your manner, making sure you're doing things to
Speaker 1: restore or that I suppose those levels of matter, but
Speaker 1: maybe also not having unrealistic expectations of yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: not expecting yourself to be able to work a full day,
Speaker 1: come home, cook a home cooke to me, I'll take
Speaker 1: the kids all of their sport, read them a story
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. Maybe you can do
Speaker 1: that some days, and that's that's amazing, that's wonderful. But
Speaker 1: on the days where you feel so drained and so depleted,
Speaker 1: maybe you just say, hey, what's one thing I could
Speaker 1: do which is going to make this day feel a
Speaker 1: little bit easier.
Speaker 2: Since you've been implementing these strategies, how has your day
Speaker 2: to day life changed.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's like chalk and cheese compared to last year.
Speaker 1: But I do feel more boring, ah, because I'm not no.
Speaker 1: This is the other side of the climb. Because people
Speaker 1: ask me to do things, I'm like, you know what,
Speaker 1: that's gonna that might push me over the edge. So
Speaker 1: I'm actually going to say no to that. So maybe
Speaker 1: I'm being extra cautious this year, and maybe that will
Speaker 1: change in a few years. But I feel well. I
Speaker 1: feel strong physically and mentally, which is amazing after so
Speaker 1: many years of feeling frazzled and stressed.
Speaker 2: You feel happy.
Speaker 1: I feel I don't know if I think this has
Speaker 1: been a pot an interview which has really tested my
Speaker 1: intellectual bounds. So thank you, Kate. No, but I feel good.
Speaker 1: I feel good.
Speaker 2: Because you've actually written a book about happiness. I was
Speaker 2: going to recommend it to you.
Speaker 1: This is this is a fucking irony. When I went
Speaker 1: to get my mental health care plan, I sat in
Speaker 1: the GP's office and I saw my book on happiness
Speaker 1: right there, bright yellow cover. I look really hot, my
Speaker 1: hair is blowing in the wind machine. And then I
Speaker 1: had to say, hey, you know, and I read that
Speaker 1: book on happiness, but I'm actually here for a mental
Speaker 1: health care planned.
Speaker 2: Well, if we know one thing about life, know that
Speaker 2: it humbles us all.
Speaker 1: And haven't I been fucking humbled? I thought I was
Speaker 1: a bit of a big dog, surviving the fire, doing
Speaker 1: iron Man Rold Championships, traveling around the world, giving motivational speeches,
Speaker 1: having a run club, writing these books, and then last
Speaker 1: year it all just came undone. So I have been Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've actually been really humbled by life. I didn't think
Speaker 1: of it like that, but that's a good way to
Speaker 1: think of it. Yeah, very humbled.
Speaker 2: You know the other thing I think about, Michael, Yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe years ago twenty eleven when you were caught in
Speaker 2: the fire, and sometime after that, you know, the whole
Speaker 2: world was kind of watching you from a distance. Obviously,
Speaker 2: is she going to survive?
Speaker 1: Is she?
Speaker 2: And then through your various operations and rehabilitations in your
Speaker 2: stepping into public life, in and out of it. But
Speaker 2: Michael said the most amazing thing. He said, people talk
Speaker 2: about going to hell and back, but Teria went to
Speaker 2: hell and Hell spat her out.
Speaker 1: That's it is? That is he a poet?
Speaker 2: Oh is just the most I'm like, is this guy
Speaker 2: a copper? Is he a copper, a helicopter pilot or
Speaker 2: what it? Yes, he's a poet, but also has such
Speaker 2: a profound, deep and abiding love and respect for you
Speaker 2: and the essence of who you are that is shared
Speaker 2: by many of us.
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, And I wouldn't have been able to write
Speaker 1: any of the books I have because you know, writing
Speaker 1: is such a vulnerable experience. You know, you're putting your
Speaker 1: darkest thoughts, your deepest fears, You're putting it out all
Speaker 1: there on a page, then you're publishing it, then you're
Speaker 1: going on podcast interviews to talk about all of that
Speaker 1: dark shit that you put in a book. And if
Speaker 1: Michael was a different man, maybe he would say, I
Speaker 1: don't want you to put out put that out there
Speaker 1: on the public record, or I don't want you to
Speaker 1: tell that hot chocolate story, or I don't want you
Speaker 1: to say this, or I don't want you to say
Speaker 1: to say that.
Speaker 2: And I don't say I was sitting on the couch, don't.
Speaker 1: Say I was sitting on the couch. Say I was
Speaker 1: doing the dishes, don't say that. No, So like you would,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be able to do that. If he wasn't
Speaker 1: the person that he was.
Speaker 2: Why don't you marry him?
Speaker 1: Then? I lie, we need to mate. We've had two kids,
Speaker 1: We've gone through fucking COVID, We've moved three times. I've
Speaker 1: written seven books. Yes, okay, just.
Speaker 2: I don't want to add to your mental live You're
Speaker 2: to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I lie. You know what the kids are asking
Speaker 1: us to They're like, why are you guys married? Yes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what do you say?
Speaker 1: I just like, yeah, it's on the fucking list along
Speaker 1: with no we do we.
Speaker 2: Do it, along with buying the right hot chocolate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we know, we do want to get married. And
Speaker 1: I think, because now I'm going to be like, I'm
Speaker 1: thirty eight this year, so I think i'd probably have
Speaker 1: my boys walking down the aisle. Sorry, sorry dad, because
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like it's dad's walking down
Speaker 1: the aisle when you're a bit of a younger bride.
Speaker 1: But I feel like, I don't know, I want my
Speaker 1: kids to walk me down the aisle.
Speaker 2: Dad can have the first dance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he can have the first dance. Yeah.
Speaker 2: To repit, What a gift you are to the nation
Speaker 2: and the world. You really are. Your manner is strong.
Speaker 2: You've got strong manner.
Speaker 1: You can use that now, Okay, I'll let you use that.
Speaker 2: I love it. I love that concept because sometimes you're
Speaker 2: not sure what you know. There's not always time to
Speaker 2: work out exactly what everything is, but you always know
Speaker 2: when something's a little bit off.
Speaker 1: You do know, Yeah, you do know. And I've learned
Speaker 1: to stop expecting myself to just absorb all of that
Speaker 1: stress and that anxiety and stop expecting myself to somehow
Speaker 1: figure it out by myself internally without sharing it with
Speaker 1: anyone else.
Speaker 2: You know, when you talk about how people, through curiosity
Speaker 2: or rudeness or whatever misguided interest, breach your personal boundaries
Speaker 2: when they ask about your appearance or what happened to you,
Speaker 2: what would you like people to do or say, Oh.
Speaker 1: So, I look. I teach my kids that it's not
Speaker 1: polite to comment on people's bodies, Like so, if there
Speaker 1: is someone who is for whatever reason, you feel like
Speaker 1: maybe they look different, maybe they have a disability, maybe
Speaker 1: they're really really tall, whatever it is. I think what
Speaker 1: I teach my kid is just don't come out on
Speaker 1: people's bodies because maybe they'll be fine with that and
Speaker 1: be happy to answer questions, but maybe also not. And
Speaker 1: it's probably just best to just not comment on it.
Speaker 2: Well to reappitch, I will comment on what a remark
Speaker 2: writer you are.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you reading the book too. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Oh, I really cannot recommend this book highly enough. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because it's a very strange. When I read the book,
Speaker 2: I'm like, what does she want? What does she want?
Speaker 2: What else does she want? And I want? Well, yes,
Speaker 2: but what is the quest?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what is the quest?
Speaker 1: To reappeach The quest for me is to keep being
Speaker 1: a bit selfish, even though it's hard at times, making
Speaker 1: sure I make that time to do things for myself.
Speaker 1: And when if Michael is away at work or for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, I can't make time to do those acts
Speaker 1: of self care, maybe there's still things I can do,
Speaker 1: you know, even though it feels good at the time.
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't drink the alcohol even though it feels
Speaker 1: good at the time. Or maybe I just put my
Speaker 1: phone down because that's going to make me feel a
Speaker 1: bit more frazzled, write and a little bit more edge.
Speaker 1: Maybe I think about I know, I said I was
Speaker 1: going to do all of these things today, but I've
Speaker 1: waken up fairly tired. What can I cancel? What can
Speaker 1: I move what can I push out until next week?
Speaker 2: To reappit. I look forward to everything that you do,
Speaker 2: even if it's just you sitting on the couch. May
Speaker 2: you enjoy it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Well, that was such a fascinating discussion to reappit. Who's
Speaker 2: a writer, a mother, a runner, a survivor, and now,
Speaker 2: by her own proud admission, selfish is an extraordinary person.
Speaker 2: Her new book is out now and it's one of
Speaker 2: those reads that makes you rethink the stories we tell
Speaker 2: ourselves about what we owe other people and what we
Speaker 2: owe ourselves. And her message is simple, but I guess radical.
Speaker 2: Being selfish doesn't make you a bad person. In fact,
Speaker 2: it might just make you a better one. Thanks for
Speaker 2: listening to No Filter. The executive producer of No Filter
Speaker 2: is Nama Brown. The senior producer is bre Player. Audio
Speaker 2: production is by Tina Mattloff, and video editing is by
Speaker 2: Josh Green. This episode was recorded at Session in Progress Studios.
Speaker 2: I am your host, Kate Langbrook and I will see
Speaker 2: you next Monday. Mumma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of
Speaker 2: the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on