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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. On a bright,

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Speaker 1: hot sunny day in Adelaide in nineteen sixty six, the

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Speaker 1: three children of Jim and Nancy Beaumont went to the beach.

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Speaker 1: It was January twenty sixth, a public holiday in South

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Speaker 1: Australia then, although it would be another nearly thirty years

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Speaker 1: before it would become a nationally recognized one. The mercury

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Speaker 1: was rising into the forties that day, and while Jim

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Speaker 1: was away for work, Nancy had to occupy those three kids,

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Speaker 1: all under the age of ten, for the entire.

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Speaker 2: Day by herself.

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Speaker 1: Three kids who knew that their summer school holidays were

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Speaker 1: fast running out. So in Jane, the eldest, at nine

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Speaker 1: years old, suggested she'd take her seven year old sister

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Speaker 1: Anna and little brother Grant, who was just four, to

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Speaker 1: the nearby Glenelg Beach for the morning. Nancy was all

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Speaker 1: too happy to send them off on another easy adventure.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't far to go, they'd been there before, and

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Speaker 1: the spot on Adelaide's western suburban shore would be packed

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Speaker 1: with other people on a public holiday Wednesday, so off

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Speaker 1: they went the three little Beaumont children, with their bathers on,

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Speaker 1: their towels around their necks, and a purse full of

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Speaker 1: change handed over by Mum for lunch and a bus fare.

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Speaker 1: Now in a crowd of hundreds, three little kids might

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Speaker 1: be noticed by many of them, or none at all,

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Speaker 1: as they raced to the sandy shore and cool relief

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Speaker 1: of the ocean. But researchers have been chasing the whereabouts

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Speaker 1: of these three for decades. Believe they were noticed by

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Speaker 1: at least one man, the worst possible man. And as

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Speaker 1: the years pass and more and more people come forward

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Speaker 1: with stories relating to this man, could they have finally

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Speaker 1: solved the mystery about what happened to Jane, Anna and

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Speaker 1: Grant Beaumont. I'm Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations,

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Speaker 1: a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking

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Speaker 1: to the people who know the most about them. In

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, the Beaumont chill will have been missing

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Speaker 1: for sixty years, but despite that passage of time, their

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Speaker 1: case continues to haunt those who investigate it. How could

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Speaker 1: three children be taken in broad daylight in front of hundreds?

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Speaker 1: How could no one have seen where they went? And

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Speaker 1: how did one of those children end up in a

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Speaker 1: bakery with more money than she ever.

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Speaker 2: Left her house with that day?

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Speaker 1: Author Stuart Mullins, who grew up in the same neighborhood

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Speaker 1: as the Beaumonts, and former detective turned private investigator Bill

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Speaker 1: Hayes have slowly been unraveling the stories around a man

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Speaker 1: who not only had the opportunity to snatch Jane, Arna

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Speaker 1: and Grant, but who also led a life that suggested

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Speaker 1: that their disappearance was not a crime of opportunity, but

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Speaker 1: rather a carefully planned luring in of three innocent lives

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Speaker 1: to satisfy a depraved section of society.

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Speaker 2: Who is the Satin Man?

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Speaker 1: And why haven't police ever really looked into his movements

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Speaker 1: on the day the Beaumont children disappeared, seeing as his

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Speaker 1: house was literally in sight of the last places they

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Speaker 1: were seen alive.

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Speaker 2: Stuart and Bill join us now.

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Speaker 1: Stuart, I'd like to kick off our conversation with you today.

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Speaker 1: You have spent so many years researching the disappearance of

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Speaker 1: the Beaumont children, and.

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Speaker 2: You, like me, grew up.

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Speaker 1: Will you closer to where this all unfolded in Adelaide?

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Speaker 1: Why do you think this case has had such a

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Speaker 1: lasting personal impact on you.

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Speaker 3: There is an emotional attachment too, and a few people

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Speaker 3: have said, and even Bill said, you can see that

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Speaker 3: in the You know, when I write the first chapter

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Speaker 3: of the Beaumont generation, that was me, That was the

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Speaker 3: Muddins family, it was the Beaumont family. May have been

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Speaker 3: your family growing up around the streets of Glenelg. We

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Speaker 3: did exactly what Jane anna, and granted that was my life,

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Speaker 3: so it was easily I could easily write and I

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Speaker 3: could feel, you know, when three children go down to

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Speaker 3: Collie Reserve, as I did, as I would say you did,

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Speaker 3: then you went with the belief that you were free,

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Speaker 3: You're having a good time and there was no way

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Speaker 3: you could have got attacked or abducted. And it was

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Speaker 3: those three that really brought it home and brought it

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Speaker 3: home to my parents. I remember my mother started to

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Speaker 3: look out for where we were going, wanted to know

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Speaker 3: where we were. So it was the day that Australia

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Speaker 3: lost its innocence because three children being abducted and disappeared

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Speaker 3: from Collie Reserve has not happened before, and it hasn't

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Speaker 3: happened since, not just in Australia, but worldwide it's a

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Speaker 3: one off and so unusual, which goes down to the

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Speaker 3: thing how brazen and confident that individual was. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's that connection. As you were born in South Australia

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Speaker 3: with Collie Reserve, I frequent and Collie Reserve. I knew

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Speaker 3: exactly their lifestyle. The Peringa Park Primary School that Jane

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Speaker 3: and Anna attended was only just down the road from

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Speaker 3: my primary school, Darlington Primary School, and it was about

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Speaker 3: four k's different and I used to play footy on

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Speaker 3: their able. I knew where they lived. My grandmother lived

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Speaker 3: about four hundred meters from where Nancy and Jim Bow

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Speaker 3: might live, so I knew the summer to part. So

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Speaker 3: there's a very in depth emotional connection.

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Speaker 1: We did actually speak to you about this case on

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Speaker 1: this podcast back in twenty nineteen, a conversation that you

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Speaker 1: had with Jesse Stevens, who was hosting at the time.

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Speaker 1: What has changed since then, because Nancy had died the

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Speaker 1: year before you spoke to Jesse, but Jim was still

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Speaker 1: alive back then, so in that six years, what's changed

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Speaker 1: about this case?

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Speaker 3: Well, since the book came out, firstly, the Satin Man

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Speaker 3: came out and then Bill was heavily involved, which gave

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Speaker 3: a lot of credibility. You may look at me and say, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, he's after notoriety and he's an upstart. But

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Speaker 3: when you get Bill Hayes involved, who's a former detective

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Speaker 3: and a federal investigator and a private and investigator, now

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Speaker 3: it adds that credibility. So Ears started to prick up

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Speaker 3: and adding him to the team, I say, a small team.

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Speaker 3: It started to get even the media interested. And what

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Speaker 3: happens when you put out a true crime book, and

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Speaker 3: we've seen this over and over again, people start to

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Speaker 3: come forward that have kept silent. Now why have they

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Speaker 3: kept silent is because the fear of not being believed,

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Speaker 3: and we've seen that time and time again. We saw

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Speaker 3: it with Rolf Harris. You know he was applying his trade.

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Speaker 3: People did come forward and they were discarded. Not Rolf Harris.

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Speaker 3: It would have been the same with Phipps. So when

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Speaker 3: people come forward and speak out and there's a similarity

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Speaker 3: between what they're saying and they're not connected, so you're

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Speaker 3: starting to build a picture. And over the last since

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Speaker 3: the last podcast, the picture has been building. So I

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Speaker 3: don't think there's any doubt whatsoever. In my mind, I

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Speaker 3: would say, Bill's that Harry Phipps is the instigator. But

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Speaker 3: what we've found out it's much more in depth than

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Speaker 3: I think even we anticipated. So it's people coming forward

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Speaker 3: one after another, feeling emboldened that they can now speak

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Speaker 3: out and be believed.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll get into a little bit more detail about

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Speaker 1: who Harry Phipps the Satin Man is in a minute.

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Speaker 1: But Bill, you became involved in this case. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was more than two decades after you know, the

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Speaker 1: children disappeared, so you have continued to investigate it ever since,

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Speaker 1: and you've often had to work independently of police. And

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Speaker 1: this is something that I've seen throughout your book is

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Speaker 1: that the role of detectives and police in this case

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Speaker 1: has been very difficult because they have been undated with

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Speaker 1: theories and people suggesting things, and they have even at

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Speaker 1: times without permission from you know, people up there chain

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Speaker 1: gone and investigated things off the back of you know,

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Speaker 1: clairvoyance and all kinds of crazy stuff with this case,

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Speaker 1: Just how difficult is it to bring new theories to

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Speaker 1: those who are officially investigating the Beaumont children.

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Speaker 4: Now, well, we've had a great deal of difficulty with

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Speaker 4: it throughout the investigation. I okay, revolved in two thousand

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Speaker 4: and eight, which is four decades after the event, and

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Speaker 4: it was a very cold case obviously after all those years,

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Speaker 4: but it was a very interesting case. It was put

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Speaker 4: to me by Stuart when you first contacted me. I

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Speaker 4: wasn't wouldn't so I was reluctant, but I was a

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Speaker 4: bit cautious about getting involved in something like this. We

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Speaker 4: had many meetings with police over the years. We've given

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Speaker 4: them voueolumes and volumes of information which all strangely disappeared,

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Speaker 4: and we had to keep reproducing volumes of information every

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Speaker 4: time someone new took over the core case. So it's

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Speaker 4: been a hard road. It's been difficultyes, indeed.

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Speaker 1: Well, Stuart, can you take us back to the beginning

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Speaker 1: of this for people? I mean, I think people are

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Speaker 1: all in different stages of their awareness of what happened

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Speaker 1: to the Beaumont children. They would have seen headlines over

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Speaker 1: the years that, you know, maybe give them some idea

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Speaker 1: of what happened. But can you take us back to

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties Somerton Park and Glenelg Because many people who

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Speaker 1: initially hear this story are often appolled that a mother

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Speaker 1: would allow three small children, you know, the ten and under,

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Speaker 1: to go to the beach by themselves. But can you

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Speaker 1: give us an idea of exactly what that area was like,

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Speaker 1: why parents were allowing their children to go to the

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Speaker 1: beach by themselves, even like was four years old. Like

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Speaker 1: it seems completely out of our realm of understanding now

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Speaker 1: of what ni teen sixties Adelaide looked like.

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Speaker 3: There was an old saying be home before the street

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Speaker 3: lights came on. So in the school holidays, children roamed

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Speaker 3: the areas around your suburbs and beyond. And you've got

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Speaker 3: to remember that we had creeks that weren't cemented in.

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Speaker 3: We had rolling hills. I was up at a place

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Speaker 3: called Seakam Gardens at the base of the Adelaide Hills,

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Speaker 3: and you could walk for miles up there, and there

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Speaker 3: was creeks and there was orange trees, and you went adventuring.

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Speaker 3: All you had to do was to be home before

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Speaker 3: the street lights came on. That's what kids did at

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Speaker 3: that time. My mother usually my mom, because my dad

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Speaker 3: was in the Air Force, he was away. She didn't

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Speaker 3: know where we were. We had no cell phones, we

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Speaker 3: had no thing. It was just like, yes, we're going

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Speaker 3: to a friend's place and we're going off exploring. So

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Speaker 3: there was many things to do in the summer. The

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Speaker 3: Adelaide heat as you know, but get up to thirty

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Speaker 3: degrees celsius or one hundred degrees fahrenheit and you'd head

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Speaker 3: down the beach, which I did at Seekum Gardens, down

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Speaker 3: to Brighton Beach, which is our favorite because it had

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Speaker 3: the jetty, but also Collie Reserve where there was This

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Speaker 3: is what mostyn said and people don't understand, is that

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Speaker 3: Collie Reserve was packed, was absolutely packed. When I went

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Speaker 3: down there with my friends, we would walk six kilometers

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Speaker 3: by ourselves. I was the first time I went to

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Speaker 3: Collie Reserve. I was five years old. Five years old.

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Speaker 3: I went with the next door neighbor, Rosalind always remembered

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Speaker 3: that she was eleven. We walked. This is after the movies.

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Speaker 3: We saw a hard day's night, but that's what we did.

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Speaker 3: There was no what's going to happen to us? We

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Speaker 3: just had to get home before the street lights came on.

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Speaker 3: So it was an adventure playground for kids. It's very

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Speaker 3: rare for a child to be abducted. It's much you can.

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Speaker 3: It's fed in to us these days to keep your

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Speaker 3: kids close to you, and I do that because we've

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Speaker 3: been involved with the Beaumont children. But back then we

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Speaker 3: didn't have that media. It was free and easy.

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Speaker 4: It was.

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Speaker 3: It was an unbelievable kid's lifestyle. And Shane, Arna and Grant,

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Speaker 3: even though Grant was four, it didn't matter, and they

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Speaker 3: only had to walk down to Collie Reserve. It was

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Speaker 3: it was well two kilometers, that's nothing. We were walking

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Speaker 3: six ten sometimes who were out all day as long

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Speaker 3: as we were back home before the street lights came on.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about that day.

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Speaker 1: It's January twenty sixth, nineteen sixty six. It's forty something

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Speaker 1: degrees that day, which is not uncommon for that time

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Speaker 1: of year. So the beach would have been packed that day.

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Speaker 1: And Mum, who is you know busy, She's got housework

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Speaker 1: to be done. Nancy's like, what do I do with

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Speaker 1: these three kids? They're pestering me. They've all been, you know,

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Speaker 1: ragging on each other, and you know, the two little

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Speaker 1: ones are saying that, you know, Jane has a boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: and they're all kind of you know, mucking around an

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Speaker 1: annoying Nancy. So she's like, right, I can't have them

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Speaker 1: walk to the beach two k's today it's forty degrees.

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Speaker 2: I'll give them a few coins.

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Speaker 1: They can catch the bus, get some lunch, and come

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Speaker 1: back again around midday.

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Speaker 2: So they had it all planned out.

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Speaker 1: The bus dropped them off basically not far from the

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Speaker 1: beach on Jetty Road, which true to its name, runs

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Speaker 1: down to the Jetti which is at the beach, and

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Speaker 1: so they go off adventuring. What do we know exactly

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Speaker 1: happened after they got off the bus to the last

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Speaker 1: time that they were seen, which was at the bakery.

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Speaker 4: They got off the bus, made the way down to

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Speaker 4: the Colie Reserve. On the way there saw the pushman,

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Speaker 4: the local persman who they knew. Waved to him said hello,

243
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Speaker 4: went down to the reserve. Now we're getting to do openscounts.

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Speaker 4: The children came on the reserve, put the towels down

245
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Speaker 4: on the grassy area and went into the beach area

246
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Speaker 4: with what it was a player around there, came out

247
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Speaker 4: and put the towels down close to a man who'd

248
00:14:20,392 --> 00:14:25,672
Speaker 4: been already on the reserve lying on a towel. They

249
00:14:25,872 --> 00:14:27,832
Speaker 4: got very close to that man and in fact the

250
00:14:27,832 --> 00:14:31,112
Speaker 4: two youngest ones went over and started playing with him,

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Speaker 4: which indicated to me the Stuart a certain form of

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Speaker 4: familiarity there for them to do that, because we're told

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Speaker 4: by Missus Beaumont that the children are not like that.

254
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Speaker 4: They wouldn't just go to some stranger and engage with him.

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Speaker 4: Jane was far too smart for that, and she was

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Speaker 4: She's a smart kid. So they were playing with the

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Speaker 4: reserve of this man. They were flicking him with the

258
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Speaker 4: towel and all that sort of shining thing was going on.

259
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Speaker 4: One stage, you were down into the wall water and

260
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Speaker 4: he came back out. And this is where it gets

261
00:15:09,832 --> 00:15:16,552
Speaker 4: really strange again the man. Jane allowed the man to

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Speaker 4: dry the children and to dress them after they come

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Speaker 4: out of the water, totally totally out of character for

264
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Speaker 4: Jane to allow that. Missus Molmont could not believe that

265
00:15:28,432 --> 00:15:32,312
Speaker 4: which was told that, but it happened because the ivors

266
00:15:32,392 --> 00:15:37,072
Speaker 4: was side happening. The children had continued to play with

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Speaker 4: a man, and at one stage the man had stood

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Speaker 4: up and said to the people nearby, beric mind there

269
00:15:43,952 --> 00:15:49,512
Speaker 4: was thousands around. The place was packed, said to those around,

270
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Speaker 4: has anybody seen anybody near our clothes? Somebody's nicked by money.

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Speaker 4: They then packed up just after midday and left the reserve,

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Speaker 4: walking towards the men's changing rooms. And that was the

273
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Speaker 4: last of people at the reserve saw of the children.

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Speaker 4: And for many years the next sighting was at Wenzel's bakery,

275
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Speaker 4: but that changed. That changed in two thousand and seven

276
00:16:16,512 --> 00:16:19,712
Speaker 4: because we got another witness. So what we know now

277
00:16:19,952 --> 00:16:23,832
Speaker 4: is that the children the left reserve gone down towards

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Speaker 4: the men's changing rooms, and then no one has seen

279
00:16:28,552 --> 00:16:32,912
Speaker 4: this but presumably have walked up the Harry's house, which

280
00:16:33,392 --> 00:16:38,232
Speaker 4: this is about one hundred and nineteen meters one hundred

281
00:16:38,272 --> 00:16:42,272
Speaker 4: ninety meters from the reserve. The story is then taken

282
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Speaker 4: up now at the home, and that was taken up

283
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Speaker 4: by Harry's son, Hayden Phipps. We told us that he'd

284
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Speaker 4: been at his little daytime school holiday job and he'd

285
00:16:54,952 --> 00:16:58,392
Speaker 4: come home lunch time and he'd gone into what he

286
00:16:58,472 --> 00:17:00,992
Speaker 4: called the covey. Now the covey wasn't a covey like

287
00:17:01,392 --> 00:17:03,352
Speaker 4: was peeled imagined something up in the tree or three

288
00:17:03,432 --> 00:17:05,911
Speaker 4: house or something. What do you call the covey was

289
00:17:05,952 --> 00:17:09,392
Speaker 4: a few planks leading against the defence, and he got

290
00:17:09,432 --> 00:17:12,191
Speaker 4: in there for sly smoke. While he was there, he

291
00:17:12,232 --> 00:17:17,311
Speaker 4: saw three children coming in to the backyard, just walking

292
00:17:17,631 --> 00:17:21,711
Speaker 4: go straight to Harry. Harry at that time was loading

293
00:17:21,752 --> 00:17:26,831
Speaker 4: his car up with surfboard bags. Now, when I spoke

294
00:17:26,871 --> 00:17:29,672
Speaker 4: to Hate and asked him what was in the surfboard bags,

295
00:17:30,311 --> 00:17:35,671
Speaker 4: he said Harry's dresses. Harry was a feticist and a

296
00:17:35,671 --> 00:17:41,231
Speaker 4: cross dresser. He had a fetish for Saturn, hence the

297
00:17:41,232 --> 00:17:46,751
Speaker 4: book sat Man. And we know that when he handled satin,

298
00:17:46,952 --> 00:17:51,512
Speaker 4: saw satin thought about Saturn, he became so sexually aroused

299
00:17:51,911 --> 00:17:55,511
Speaker 4: that he was known to spontaneously ejaculate. He was so

300
00:17:55,752 --> 00:17:59,351
Speaker 4: arousing for him. So here we have three little children

301
00:17:59,431 --> 00:18:04,311
Speaker 4: which they had spoken to Harry who'd been handling satin dresses,

302
00:18:04,391 --> 00:18:06,952
Speaker 4: so he would have been in a state of excite,

303
00:18:07,431 --> 00:18:10,831
Speaker 4: and he took them inside the house. Were inside the

304
00:18:10,831 --> 00:18:13,552
Speaker 4: house for a period of time, and then Harry came

305
00:18:13,591 --> 00:18:16,871
Speaker 4: back out and continued to load the car with his

306
00:18:16,992 --> 00:18:23,111
Speaker 4: bags and left drove out drive away. Hayden says that

307
00:18:23,272 --> 00:18:26,471
Speaker 4: was the last time he saw the children and Harry

308
00:18:27,351 --> 00:18:32,152
Speaker 4: in that situation. We now take it up at Wenzel's Bakery,

309
00:18:32,591 --> 00:18:35,552
Speaker 4: which is about one hundred and twenty meters walk from

310
00:18:36,071 --> 00:18:40,952
Speaker 4: Harry's house where the children arrived there and Jane had

311
00:18:41,032 --> 00:18:46,191
Speaker 4: suddenly found a one pound note because she paid for

312
00:18:46,752 --> 00:18:52,512
Speaker 4: six meals. There was five past these, one pie, six

313
00:18:52,552 --> 00:18:56,392
Speaker 4: finger buttons and two bottles of pop was a one

314
00:18:56,431 --> 00:19:00,071
Speaker 4: pound note when they arrived at you remember at the reserve.

315
00:19:00,552 --> 00:19:04,911
Speaker 4: Allegedly their money had been sold. Money's been nicked, so

316
00:19:05,032 --> 00:19:08,032
Speaker 4: she had no money. Two things that means. One where

317
00:19:08,032 --> 00:19:10,831
Speaker 4: don't you get the pant note? But two she was

318
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Speaker 4: in the hands and the person who took the money

319
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Speaker 4: because he's the person who could can rely on to

320
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Speaker 4: get them home and give them more money to buy

321
00:19:19,631 --> 00:19:23,191
Speaker 4: lunch for the mum and themselves and someone else. The

322
00:19:23,311 --> 00:19:28,391
Speaker 4: children have never seen again after buying the food from

323
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Speaker 4: the bakery, which is just the thing there that's part

324
00:19:34,391 --> 00:19:35,232
Speaker 4: of the mystery.

325
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Speaker 3: What Hayden has said. He said, I saw the children

326
00:19:39,431 --> 00:19:43,192
Speaker 3: at his house around lunchtime. Those children and the man

327
00:19:43,631 --> 00:19:46,511
Speaker 3: left that reservers, Bill said, with no money, and it

328
00:19:46,591 --> 00:19:50,351
Speaker 3: was around twelve oh five. They end up at Wensley's

329
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Speaker 3: Bakery around twelve twenty five. Now they leave the reserve

330
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Speaker 3: with no money none. They've got twenty minutes to collect

331
00:19:57,232 --> 00:20:02,311
Speaker 3: that money and then end up at Wensley's bakery. It

332
00:20:02,472 --> 00:20:06,951
Speaker 3: marries in exactly what Hayden had said. They aim into

333
00:20:06,992 --> 00:20:11,432
Speaker 3: the backyard. We've walked up myself and Bill. We've done

334
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Speaker 3: this at a slow pace. You've got to think they've

335
00:20:13,391 --> 00:20:15,712
Speaker 3: got Grant Beaumont in hand, and it's one hundred degrees hit.

336
00:20:16,272 --> 00:20:19,591
Speaker 3: We've walked up to those chain trips at a slow pace,

337
00:20:19,792 --> 00:20:23,391
Speaker 3: waited there and then walked straight down Augusta Street that

338
00:20:23,952 --> 00:20:27,151
Speaker 3: from the run Darvel from where they were playing. You

339
00:20:27,192 --> 00:20:29,272
Speaker 3: only have to look down you can see Harry's place.

340
00:20:29,391 --> 00:20:32,311
Speaker 3: It's one hundred and ninety meters. You walked down there.

341
00:20:32,311 --> 00:20:35,272
Speaker 3: We did this at a slow pace, waited, collected the

342
00:20:35,272 --> 00:20:37,591
Speaker 3: pound note or made out, and then walked to Wenzels.

343
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Speaker 3: It was nineteen minutes. It fits like a glove.

344
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Speaker 1: How much of a reliable source is Hayden, because I

345
00:20:46,952 --> 00:20:51,071
Speaker 1: mean a lot of this new evidence is based on

346
00:20:51,512 --> 00:20:54,471
Speaker 1: his story. And how did we find out his story

347
00:20:54,472 --> 00:20:56,911
Speaker 1: in the end, because it obviously wasn't brought up back

348
00:20:57,431 --> 00:21:01,111
Speaker 1: when the immediate investigation was happening, and in fact the

349
00:21:01,192 --> 00:21:04,112
Speaker 1: pound note was kept quiet from people for a very

350
00:21:04,151 --> 00:21:06,552
Speaker 1: long time too. Is it a fairly integral part of

351
00:21:06,552 --> 00:21:10,431
Speaker 1: this investigation. Police thought that it would become something bigger

352
00:21:10,472 --> 00:21:12,311
Speaker 1: down the track if they ever found someone to match

353
00:21:12,351 --> 00:21:16,391
Speaker 1: it to. But how reliable is Hayden? How did his

354
00:21:16,472 --> 00:21:17,912
Speaker 1: evidence actually come to light?

355
00:21:20,192 --> 00:21:23,071
Speaker 3: I found Hayden. I've met him. Bill's met him. Look,

356
00:21:23,311 --> 00:21:26,311
Speaker 3: I've done reference checks on him in the recruitment game,

357
00:21:26,391 --> 00:21:29,151
Speaker 3: so that's what I do. He's credible, he can be

358
00:21:29,831 --> 00:21:31,551
Speaker 3: excuse expression, he can bullshit a bit.

359
00:21:31,712 --> 00:21:31,992
Speaker 4: Yes.

360
00:21:32,391 --> 00:21:35,272
Speaker 3: When the book came out, quite a few people came forward,

361
00:21:35,311 --> 00:21:39,071
Speaker 3: which true crime do, and they called with their theories.

362
00:21:39,631 --> 00:21:43,631
Speaker 3: But there was one particular person that came forward was

363
00:21:43,712 --> 00:21:47,831
Speaker 3: a lady called Angela Fife, but she was married to Hayden,

364
00:21:47,911 --> 00:21:50,591
Speaker 3: so it was Angela Phipps. She had bought that book

365
00:21:51,311 --> 00:21:56,431
Speaker 3: and it enlightened her because she didn't realize that the

366
00:21:56,472 --> 00:21:58,672
Speaker 3: man seeing with the kids at the beach that day

367
00:21:59,391 --> 00:22:03,351
Speaker 3: was known to give out pound notes. One that she

368
00:22:03,512 --> 00:22:06,712
Speaker 3: believed her husband, Hayden Phipps at that time, had been

369
00:22:06,792 --> 00:22:11,311
Speaker 3: sexually abused by his father, Harry. He talked about and

370
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Speaker 3: Hayden showed all the characteristics of being sexually abused because

371
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Speaker 3: with Angela, she was a psych nurse at one of

372
00:22:19,272 --> 00:22:22,471
Speaker 3: the establishments up in North Queens then, and she was

373
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Speaker 3: dealing with and working with victims of child sexual abuse.

374
00:22:26,631 --> 00:22:29,631
Speaker 3: That Hayden a lot of times would be caught with

375
00:22:29,712 --> 00:22:33,552
Speaker 3: his face down in the pillow making grunting noises in

376
00:22:33,591 --> 00:22:36,391
Speaker 3: the middle of the night, and he'd be sweating. He

377
00:22:36,512 --> 00:22:41,831
Speaker 3: was also very erratic. He suffered from alcoholism, he suffered

378
00:22:41,831 --> 00:22:44,951
Speaker 3: from depression, anxiety, and it got to a point that

379
00:22:45,071 --> 00:22:48,752
Speaker 3: they split up. Angela couldn't take it anymore. But when

380
00:22:48,752 --> 00:22:51,591
Speaker 3: she read the book, she put one on one together

381
00:22:51,871 --> 00:22:54,951
Speaker 3: the pound note. She didn't know. She's thinking where Harry lives.

382
00:22:55,512 --> 00:22:58,991
Speaker 3: She believed that Harry was a pedophile. So you've got

383
00:22:58,992 --> 00:23:01,951
Speaker 3: a pedophile one hundred and ninety meters from Colie Reserve,

384
00:23:02,311 --> 00:23:06,911
Speaker 3: hands out pound notes fits the description to an absolute tea.

385
00:23:07,151 --> 00:23:11,471
Speaker 3: That was the three major things that she put forward

386
00:23:12,071 --> 00:23:16,351
Speaker 3: that spiked Allan Whittaker's interest. He called me and he said,

387
00:23:16,431 --> 00:23:19,792
Speaker 3: are you sitting down? And once he told me that

388
00:23:19,871 --> 00:23:22,231
Speaker 3: I had a chill go up my backbone, which has

389
00:23:22,272 --> 00:23:24,992
Speaker 3: happened a few times, and I knew we were onto something.

390
00:23:25,032 --> 00:23:28,991
Speaker 3: I've even got it right now. I believe I was

391
00:23:29,032 --> 00:23:29,831
Speaker 3: onto something.

392
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Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Clare Murphy.

393
00:23:36,071 --> 00:23:39,151
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with writer Stuart Mullins and former South Australian

394
00:23:39,192 --> 00:23:43,951
Speaker 1: Police detective Bill Hayes about the Beaumont Children's disappearance. Up next,

395
00:23:44,071 --> 00:23:46,992
Speaker 1: Stuart and Bill talk more about the man they think

396
00:23:47,111 --> 00:23:51,632
Speaker 1: is guilty for the disappearance of the Beaumont children, Harry Phipps.

397
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Speaker 1: Can we talk a little bit about Harry Phipps what

398
00:23:56,952 --> 00:23:59,511
Speaker 1: kind of man he was seen as, because I understand

399
00:23:59,552 --> 00:24:03,632
Speaker 1: he had quite the two different personas, one that was

400
00:24:03,871 --> 00:24:07,952
Speaker 1: very public and one that was very private. And how

401
00:24:08,871 --> 00:24:11,752
Speaker 1: he would be in a position to be able to

402
00:24:11,831 --> 00:24:15,432
Speaker 1: randomly hand out pound notes because as you mentioned, that's

403
00:24:15,472 --> 00:24:17,951
Speaker 1: like handing out of fifty these days. So he was

404
00:24:17,992 --> 00:24:21,351
Speaker 1: a very well off man and I understand very well connected.

405
00:24:21,351 --> 00:24:23,911
Speaker 1: Can you give us an idea of who Harry Phipps

406
00:24:24,071 --> 00:24:26,591
Speaker 1: was in the nineteen sixties and seventies.

407
00:24:27,232 --> 00:24:31,831
Speaker 4: Was a gentleman who is very successful in business. He

408
00:24:31,871 --> 00:24:38,111
Speaker 4: was an engineer by training, as was his father. He

409
00:24:38,232 --> 00:24:44,151
Speaker 4: had been. He had built up a small business engineering

410
00:24:44,192 --> 00:24:48,071
Speaker 4: type business to what cast the Load became, which was

411
00:24:48,071 --> 00:24:51,872
Speaker 4: a major foundry manufacturer and.

412
00:24:51,831 --> 00:24:54,552
Speaker 1: For those people who aren't from Adelaide, the Castel factory

413
00:24:54,712 --> 00:24:57,151
Speaker 1: employs like loads of people.

414
00:24:57,311 --> 00:24:59,512
Speaker 2: It's a pretty big operation.

415
00:24:59,232 --> 00:25:01,992
Speaker 1: Right, Like, it's no small meat and potatoes factory here.

416
00:25:02,792 --> 00:25:06,712
Speaker 4: It sits on a second certain hector site that gives

417
00:25:06,712 --> 00:25:11,071
Speaker 4: you the idea. It's about six football fields or huge.

418
00:25:11,752 --> 00:25:15,311
Speaker 4: It was huge anyway. He built that up into the

419
00:25:15,351 --> 00:25:19,871
Speaker 4: business that became He was a multi millionaire, hence his

420
00:25:19,952 --> 00:25:24,912
Speaker 4: ability and capacity to give out one pound nuts. As

421
00:25:24,952 --> 00:25:29,991
Speaker 4: a person, he was He's a jeculine hide, a definite

422
00:25:30,071 --> 00:25:35,111
Speaker 4: jeculine hide. He is to some people, who's the hell person,

423
00:25:35,192 --> 00:25:42,152
Speaker 4: well met type individual who is well dressed, debonair slave smart.

424
00:25:43,512 --> 00:25:46,631
Speaker 4: The other side of him was aside a few people saw,

425
00:25:47,792 --> 00:25:53,111
Speaker 4: and that was the pedophile side, or the psychotic side,

426
00:25:54,192 --> 00:25:57,752
Speaker 4: the person who would fly off the handle in an

427
00:25:57,752 --> 00:26:02,111
Speaker 4: incredible rage from zero to one hundred and split second

428
00:26:02,552 --> 00:26:06,711
Speaker 4: for no apparent reason. It just happened. His psychotic ages.

429
00:26:06,752 --> 00:26:13,911
Speaker 4: He had evidence throughout his life, so those unfortunate to

430
00:26:13,952 --> 00:26:20,631
Speaker 4: see that side of him and surviving having never forgotten

431
00:26:21,032 --> 00:26:24,792
Speaker 4: what they saw what he did. So he was out

432
00:26:24,831 --> 00:26:27,591
Speaker 4: in the community doing the good things that rich people do.

433
00:26:28,591 --> 00:26:33,671
Speaker 4: And then behind that bail was the other Harry, and

434
00:26:33,752 --> 00:26:37,351
Speaker 4: he unfortunately is the Harry that we believe the bomb

435
00:26:37,311 --> 00:26:38,352
Speaker 4: of children met.

436
00:26:38,192 --> 00:26:39,631
Speaker 2: And this is a man we referred to as the

437
00:26:39,631 --> 00:26:40,712
Speaker 2: Satin man, right.

438
00:26:41,071 --> 00:26:47,151
Speaker 4: Correct, correct, So that man was evil, he was cruel,

439
00:26:48,351 --> 00:26:51,512
Speaker 4: He was a psycho. A psycho he really wasn't that case.

440
00:26:52,032 --> 00:26:56,751
Speaker 4: Once he got aroused, there was no stopping, absolutely no stopping.

441
00:26:57,911 --> 00:27:03,351
Speaker 4: Hayden gave an example of Harry's arousals when he explained

442
00:27:03,472 --> 00:27:07,391
Speaker 4: his own rapes to me, when Harry had raped him,

443
00:27:07,631 --> 00:27:09,911
Speaker 4: and how as a four or five year old child,

444
00:27:10,631 --> 00:27:13,591
Speaker 4: Hayden would lie in his bed at night waiting to

445
00:27:13,631 --> 00:27:17,952
Speaker 4: hear the swish of Saturn coming down the hallway because

446
00:27:17,952 --> 00:27:20,231
Speaker 4: he knew Harry was coming down wearing one of his

447
00:27:20,272 --> 00:27:24,992
Speaker 4: satin dresses, and Hayden was about to get raped. That

448
00:27:25,431 --> 00:27:29,831
Speaker 4: was his life and his experience of his father. He

449
00:27:29,911 --> 00:27:34,152
Speaker 4: hated his father throughout his life, and we always said

450
00:27:34,151 --> 00:27:38,152
Speaker 4: there was a reason for that. We couldn't find out

451
00:27:38,192 --> 00:27:42,152
Speaker 4: the reason. We thought it was because he'd been abusing him,

452
00:27:42,232 --> 00:27:44,871
Speaker 4: and certainly that was a big part of it, but

453
00:27:44,952 --> 00:27:47,711
Speaker 4: we now believed there was other reasons too why he

454
00:27:47,792 --> 00:27:53,912
Speaker 4: had his father. But Harry, for the people who met him,

455
00:27:56,192 --> 00:27:59,391
Speaker 4: mister Hyde character, for those people who are unfortunate to

456
00:27:59,431 --> 00:28:03,591
Speaker 4: meet the mister Hyde in Harry's character, it was an

457
00:28:03,671 --> 00:28:07,911
Speaker 4: unforgetable and horrible experience for those honors who saw on

458
00:28:07,911 --> 00:28:10,671
Speaker 4: the other side, and they would never believe that mister

459
00:28:10,712 --> 00:28:15,151
Speaker 4: Hyde had ever lived. Harry was a great guy, looked

460
00:28:15,151 --> 00:28:19,151
Speaker 4: after the guys at work, paid them well through great parties,

461
00:28:19,232 --> 00:28:23,671
Speaker 4: really did. But that's all part of his front. So

462
00:28:23,752 --> 00:28:25,871
Speaker 4: that's Harry and a nutshell two people.

463
00:28:26,192 --> 00:28:30,951
Speaker 1: Can we talk about those people who would find out

464
00:28:31,591 --> 00:28:33,711
Speaker 1: later on that they were.

465
00:28:33,591 --> 00:28:35,671
Speaker 2: The victims of this Satin Man?

466
00:28:36,032 --> 00:28:39,512
Speaker 1: Because you've written books, including The Satin Man, where people

467
00:28:39,512 --> 00:28:42,512
Speaker 1: have identified who this person is and Gon hang On,

468
00:28:43,232 --> 00:28:44,312
Speaker 1: I think I'm also.

469
00:28:44,072 --> 00:28:45,072
Speaker 2: The victim of this person.

470
00:28:45,232 --> 00:28:46,671
Speaker 1: Can you talk us through who some of those people

471
00:28:46,712 --> 00:28:48,232
Speaker 1: are and what their experiences have been.

472
00:28:49,352 --> 00:28:52,152
Speaker 4: The first really notable one. We've had several, but one

473
00:28:52,232 --> 00:28:59,032
Speaker 4: really notable one was a lady. I interviewed her at length.

474
00:28:59,992 --> 00:29:04,911
Speaker 4: Her story was compelling. So there was a man that

475
00:29:04,992 --> 00:29:08,511
Speaker 4: would share outside of cars the lay every day and

476
00:29:08,752 --> 00:29:13,752
Speaker 4: watched her and her friend walked to school together and

477
00:29:14,392 --> 00:29:19,951
Speaker 4: wave and smile. Nice Harry. And it was Harry that

478
00:29:20,032 --> 00:29:24,832
Speaker 4: went on for some considerable time, And on this particular day,

479
00:29:25,632 --> 00:29:29,872
Speaker 4: she'd gone up to Streeter Street up past Street Street,

480
00:29:29,872 --> 00:29:33,632
Speaker 4: Streeter Street to Kincaid Avenue, which is street behind Castle

481
00:29:33,671 --> 00:29:36,191
Speaker 4: Loi to go to her friend's house to do some

482
00:29:36,312 --> 00:29:40,711
Speaker 4: homework together. She stayed longer than she planned and she

483
00:29:40,792 --> 00:29:43,592
Speaker 4: had to leave to get home. So she's making her

484
00:29:43,592 --> 00:29:46,352
Speaker 4: way home down street of the street towards King Caid

485
00:29:46,392 --> 00:29:50,592
Speaker 4: Avenue and the man that she'd been watching standing in

486
00:29:50,712 --> 00:29:54,711
Speaker 4: street of street very much say guy, And as she

487
00:29:54,832 --> 00:29:57,352
Speaker 4: walked down the street, she crossed the road to the

488
00:29:57,392 --> 00:29:59,872
Speaker 4: other side of the street from where he was, and

489
00:29:59,911 --> 00:30:03,751
Speaker 4: he came across the street towards her, met her towards

490
00:30:03,792 --> 00:30:06,231
Speaker 4: the middle of the road, put his arm gently on

491
00:30:06,472 --> 00:30:09,312
Speaker 4: shoulder and started speaking to her in a very nice

492
00:30:09,552 --> 00:30:14,152
Speaker 4: plus way. She recalled that because he wasn't rough and

493
00:30:14,312 --> 00:30:18,671
Speaker 4: gruff like her father, and he smelt really well and

494
00:30:18,712 --> 00:30:21,471
Speaker 4: he gently spoke to her as he was guiding her

495
00:30:21,512 --> 00:30:24,152
Speaker 4: across to the other side of the street of street

496
00:30:24,752 --> 00:30:27,991
Speaker 4: down towards the junction of Street Street and Morigi Avenue.

497
00:30:28,152 --> 00:30:31,312
Speaker 4: That's no our car park. Back then when this happened,

498
00:30:31,712 --> 00:30:34,711
Speaker 4: it was a bit of waste ground that had piles

499
00:30:34,752 --> 00:30:37,872
Speaker 4: of earth piled up and kids would use it for

500
00:30:37,911 --> 00:30:39,912
Speaker 4: the bikes up and down on the bikes over these

501
00:30:39,992 --> 00:30:43,951
Speaker 4: piles of earth. He guided her into those the corner

502
00:30:44,431 --> 00:30:47,152
Speaker 4: of all those piles of earth, which was sheltered from

503
00:30:47,192 --> 00:30:51,392
Speaker 4: the street by its bulk. He set her down, spoke

504
00:30:51,472 --> 00:30:55,432
Speaker 4: to her, and cut along story short. He even see

505
00:30:55,632 --> 00:31:00,912
Speaker 4: raped her. When he finished raping her, he stood up

506
00:31:01,431 --> 00:31:05,272
Speaker 4: and as his typical the behavior we know of Harry Phipps,

507
00:31:05,671 --> 00:31:08,312
Speaker 4: he started up in the dust, off his clothing and

508
00:31:08,392 --> 00:31:12,712
Speaker 4: blaming her for getting his clothes dirty. Look what you've done.

509
00:31:12,792 --> 00:31:15,231
Speaker 4: Look at the nice clothes and putting on dirty. It's

510
00:31:15,192 --> 00:31:19,112
Speaker 4: told your fault. So he does this change start to

511
00:31:19,152 --> 00:31:23,911
Speaker 4: go to bad, Harry. She ran home. She got home,

512
00:31:24,032 --> 00:31:28,471
Speaker 4: she was disheveled, dirty. Her mother said nothing, let her in,

513
00:31:28,832 --> 00:31:31,152
Speaker 4: told her she had to go and get changed before

514
00:31:31,152 --> 00:31:33,872
Speaker 4: her father come home. Her father come home, and that

515
00:31:33,992 --> 00:31:36,312
Speaker 4: was it for a while. She didn't say anything to

516
00:31:36,312 --> 00:31:39,632
Speaker 4: her mother, and wouldn't say anything to her father because

517
00:31:40,152 --> 00:31:43,352
Speaker 4: he would have blamed her. If she'd have brought the

518
00:31:43,392 --> 00:31:46,232
Speaker 4: police to his house, she would have got the biggest

519
00:31:46,352 --> 00:31:50,072
Speaker 4: beating she'd have had. He was a violent man, and

520
00:31:50,352 --> 00:31:54,312
Speaker 4: she didn't tell him her It did cause behavioral changes

521
00:31:54,352 --> 00:31:57,431
Speaker 4: in her, so much so when she left home, when

522
00:31:57,472 --> 00:32:02,312
Speaker 4: she was about seventeen or eighteen and was being looked

523
00:32:02,352 --> 00:32:04,992
Speaker 4: after by a couple who are a nice couple who

524
00:32:05,032 --> 00:32:07,231
Speaker 4: were very kind to her, and now you've tried to

525
00:32:07,232 --> 00:32:09,792
Speaker 4: work out what had happened to you. So she told

526
00:32:09,872 --> 00:32:13,672
Speaker 4: him this story that I've just told you, and they

527
00:32:13,992 --> 00:32:16,711
Speaker 4: convinced her to call the police. They called in the

528
00:32:16,712 --> 00:32:20,392
Speaker 4: South Australia Police in the uniform. Police officer responded and

529
00:32:20,431 --> 00:32:22,752
Speaker 4: came to serious spoke to her about what had happened.

530
00:32:24,272 --> 00:32:29,032
Speaker 4: He then basically told her how difficult it would be

531
00:32:29,911 --> 00:32:33,472
Speaker 4: for the police and for her to prove this. There's

532
00:32:33,472 --> 00:32:38,671
Speaker 4: no evidence, no forensic evidence, it's an old case. Nobody's

533
00:32:38,712 --> 00:32:41,152
Speaker 4: going to believe you. All that sort of stuff. So

534
00:32:41,312 --> 00:32:43,672
Speaker 4: much so that she said decided it wasn't worth it,

535
00:32:44,312 --> 00:32:48,431
Speaker 4: so she just let it go. She had continued to

536
00:32:48,431 --> 00:32:51,392
Speaker 4: be a bit of a troublesome child or a young

537
00:32:51,431 --> 00:32:56,712
Speaker 4: person and men she ended up in to say where

538
00:32:56,752 --> 00:33:00,431
Speaker 4: she began to settle down. She had married a police

539
00:33:00,431 --> 00:33:04,352
Speaker 4: officer who became a senior police officer over there and

540
00:33:04,792 --> 00:33:09,431
Speaker 4: was quite happy. She told some friends about her childhood

541
00:33:09,712 --> 00:33:13,112
Speaker 4: what had happened to her, and one day she's watching

542
00:33:13,152 --> 00:33:16,231
Speaker 4: something on TV. What happened to be a program Stuart

543
00:33:16,312 --> 00:33:23,231
Speaker 4: Live done, and they flashed Harry's photograph of Bet and

544
00:33:23,272 --> 00:33:25,152
Speaker 4: she said to a friend who was seeing with it,

545
00:33:25,752 --> 00:33:27,672
Speaker 4: that's the one they rape them. That's the guy who

546
00:33:27,752 --> 00:33:31,911
Speaker 4: raped me. And that truly is the first time she

547
00:33:32,032 --> 00:33:34,032
Speaker 4: knew his name was Harry Phipps.

548
00:33:35,431 --> 00:33:38,551
Speaker 1: Next, how close are we to finding the remains of

549
00:33:38,592 --> 00:33:39,592
Speaker 1: the Beaumont.

550
00:33:39,192 --> 00:33:43,432
Speaker 2: Children, Stuart?

551
00:33:43,472 --> 00:33:47,671
Speaker 1: You have been researching Harry Phipps's connection to the missing

552
00:33:47,712 --> 00:33:50,671
Speaker 1: Beaumont children for quite some time, and during this time,

553
00:33:51,392 --> 00:33:56,112
Speaker 1: while Nancy has passed away, Jim has still been alive.

554
00:33:55,872 --> 00:33:58,152
Speaker 2: Through this process. He's sadly passed on now.

555
00:33:58,192 --> 00:34:03,352
Speaker 1: But have you taken your belief of Harry Phipps's connection

556
00:34:03,512 --> 00:34:06,191
Speaker 1: to his missing children to him personally?

557
00:34:07,392 --> 00:34:13,232
Speaker 3: Moston matters had kept in contact with him over the years,

558
00:34:14,072 --> 00:34:18,792
Speaker 3: and when he got involved with me and Bill. Regarding

559
00:34:19,152 --> 00:34:22,911
Speaker 3: Harry Phipps, he went to see him, had a cup

560
00:34:22,951 --> 00:34:26,431
Speaker 3: of tea with him. Because he was the first detective

561
00:34:27,031 --> 00:34:29,352
Speaker 3: on the case. He was the first detective to meet

562
00:34:29,792 --> 00:34:34,352
Speaker 3: a distraught mister Missus Beaumont, so Jim trusted him, knew

563
00:34:34,352 --> 00:34:36,991
Speaker 3: where he lived, most people knew where he lived, and

564
00:34:37,031 --> 00:34:38,951
Speaker 3: went around to see him. I got a call from

565
00:34:39,031 --> 00:34:42,511
Speaker 3: Boston to say that he had caught up with Jim

566
00:34:42,792 --> 00:34:46,632
Speaker 3: and that he was very appreciative of what both myself

567
00:34:46,712 --> 00:34:51,111
Speaker 3: and Bill were doing. But that's all he said. Regarding that,

568
00:34:51,551 --> 00:34:55,431
Speaker 3: he does say publicly that you know, he doesn't want

569
00:34:55,471 --> 00:34:58,992
Speaker 3: to be you know, his hopes raised and yet dashed again,

570
00:34:59,072 --> 00:35:02,392
Speaker 3: But on this occasion he didn't say that. In Boston,

571
00:35:03,031 --> 00:35:07,712
Speaker 3: he actually was grateful and that me and Bill, like

572
00:35:09,752 --> 00:35:13,031
Speaker 3: I felt pleased with that. I could see that he

573
00:35:13,031 --> 00:35:15,832
Speaker 3: could see what we were doing was the right thing

574
00:35:15,911 --> 00:35:19,352
Speaker 3: to do. Now is what he thought of Harriet Phipps.

575
00:35:19,392 --> 00:35:23,352
Speaker 3: I don't know, but he was appreciative of this. So

576
00:35:23,991 --> 00:35:27,272
Speaker 3: that was a quite quiet consolation that we were doing

577
00:35:27,312 --> 00:35:30,952
Speaker 3: the right thing. We knew we were. And I would say,

578
00:35:31,192 --> 00:35:34,232
Speaker 3: going even further that, you know, dealing with the and

579
00:35:34,272 --> 00:35:39,272
Speaker 3: Bill has two with the major crime. You know, we've

580
00:35:39,312 --> 00:35:42,312
Speaker 3: got this in the book. Do they have the time,

581
00:35:42,712 --> 00:35:45,711
Speaker 3: do they have the resources to what myself and Bill

582
00:35:45,752 --> 00:35:51,272
Speaker 3: have done over these years? Which investigation takes president over

583
00:35:51,352 --> 00:35:55,672
Speaker 3: another one? Is it an investigation or a true crime

584
00:35:55,752 --> 00:36:00,152
Speaker 3: mystery of fifty sixty years old? Or they've got more

585
00:36:00,632 --> 00:36:05,671
Speaker 3: pressing matters and those pressing matters are also exemplified by

586
00:36:05,752 --> 00:36:07,951
Speaker 3: the media. The media is going to put pressure on

587
00:36:08,112 --> 00:36:10,352
Speaker 3: to get things solved. The public are going to do that.

588
00:36:10,792 --> 00:36:15,591
Speaker 3: So I think I believe what we've heard. They're quite

589
00:36:15,592 --> 00:36:19,232
Speaker 3: appreciative even what me and Bill are doing, because we're

590
00:36:19,272 --> 00:36:22,071
Speaker 3: hitting in the right direction. We've got the time. I mean,

591
00:36:22,192 --> 00:36:24,711
Speaker 3: it does interfere with our own work, but we've got

592
00:36:24,712 --> 00:36:27,232
Speaker 3: the time, we do have the resources, We're not silly,

593
00:36:28,031 --> 00:36:30,031
Speaker 3: and we're heading in the right direction. So I think

594
00:36:30,152 --> 00:36:33,031
Speaker 3: the police most probably breathe a sigh of relief, even

595
00:36:33,072 --> 00:36:33,872
Speaker 3: though they don't say it.

596
00:36:35,911 --> 00:36:41,152
Speaker 1: Speaking of police, what has to eventuate for them to

597
00:36:41,272 --> 00:36:44,631
Speaker 1: finally go to the cast alloy site in I think

598
00:36:44,632 --> 00:36:47,591
Speaker 1: the first peop was around twenty thirteen. For them to

599
00:36:47,632 --> 00:36:50,552
Speaker 1: start actually looking for the remains of the Beaumont children

600
00:36:51,031 --> 00:36:53,112
Speaker 1: at Harry Phipps's factory site.

601
00:36:53,192 --> 00:36:56,431
Speaker 2: What has to happen to get them there.

602
00:36:56,471 --> 00:37:02,152
Speaker 3: There's two boys, David and Robin Harkin. They read the

603
00:37:02,232 --> 00:37:04,232
Speaker 3: Satin and Not on the sat Man book searching for

604
00:37:04,312 --> 00:37:08,031
Speaker 3: the Beaumonts and then the Saturn Man. They called Alan

605
00:37:08,072 --> 00:37:12,471
Speaker 3: Whittaker initially and said they had dug a grave size hole.

606
00:37:12,511 --> 00:37:15,392
Speaker 3: Once they found out it was Harry Phipson carsall they

607
00:37:15,431 --> 00:37:19,352
Speaker 3: called Alan Whittaker, and again Alan Whittaker called me and

608
00:37:19,832 --> 00:37:22,872
Speaker 3: said again are you sitting down. There was two boys,

609
00:37:22,991 --> 00:37:25,832
Speaker 3: brothers that dug this grave size hole at the back

610
00:37:25,872 --> 00:37:28,551
Speaker 3: of the factory back in nineteen sixty six, and it

611
00:37:28,592 --> 00:37:32,031
Speaker 3: is only three days after the children go missing, and

612
00:37:32,112 --> 00:37:36,151
Speaker 3: Harry Phipps was there watching them. And also when they

613
00:37:36,192 --> 00:37:40,472
Speaker 3: finished that hole, they were powding pound notes follow the money.

614
00:37:41,152 --> 00:37:43,872
Speaker 3: You know who hands out You've got a pound note there,

615
00:37:43,951 --> 00:37:45,951
Speaker 3: You've got a pound note with Jane, and then you've

616
00:37:45,951 --> 00:37:49,272
Speaker 3: got a pound note a few days later. So that

617
00:37:49,392 --> 00:37:52,832
Speaker 3: obviously pricked my ears up. And of course Bill got involved,

618
00:37:52,872 --> 00:37:55,752
Speaker 3: and of course you know, he followed it through. So

619
00:37:55,792 --> 00:37:57,991
Speaker 3: it was just it was like, oh, here we go.

620
00:37:58,752 --> 00:38:02,511
Speaker 4: Yeah. I took students from both the brothers. Was now

621
00:38:02,592 --> 00:38:07,471
Speaker 4: I was even two men, both business professionals, and they

622
00:38:07,551 --> 00:38:11,352
Speaker 4: could quite clearly recall digging the hole back in sixty six.

623
00:38:11,471 --> 00:38:15,392
Speaker 4: Because of the nature of the hole, there was nothing

624
00:38:15,551 --> 00:38:18,431
Speaker 4: nearby to put in the hole. They couldn't work out

625
00:38:18,471 --> 00:38:21,472
Speaker 4: why they were digging this play great hole in forty

626
00:38:21,511 --> 00:38:24,991
Speaker 4: degree heat. They couldn't work out why, as I said,

627
00:38:24,991 --> 00:38:28,592
Speaker 4: there was nothing there that mystified him that this older

628
00:38:28,632 --> 00:38:32,751
Speaker 4: bloke who was supervising was going to have to put

629
00:38:32,752 --> 00:38:35,471
Speaker 4: whatever he wanted to put in the hole, put in

630
00:38:35,471 --> 00:38:38,312
Speaker 4: the hole himself, and then he would fill this big hole,

631
00:38:38,752 --> 00:38:41,511
Speaker 4: which said dug out, which was a massive task for them.

632
00:38:42,152 --> 00:38:43,991
Speaker 4: And what was ho was he going to do? You know,

633
00:38:44,192 --> 00:38:46,991
Speaker 4: just on his own. They couldn't work it out, and

634
00:38:47,072 --> 00:38:49,991
Speaker 4: that remained with them. They've got barbecues years later and

635
00:38:50,152 --> 00:38:52,551
Speaker 4: joke about the time they dug the great You know,

636
00:38:52,551 --> 00:38:54,352
Speaker 4: I wondered what he wanted to put in there? There

637
00:38:54,392 --> 00:38:55,431
Speaker 4: was nothing there to put in.

638
00:38:56,272 --> 00:38:59,232
Speaker 1: What happened in that first dig and what led you

639
00:38:59,352 --> 00:39:01,151
Speaker 1: to go back and recheck it?

640
00:39:01,471 --> 00:39:02,312
Speaker 2: Afterwards?

641
00:39:02,672 --> 00:39:07,232
Speaker 4: Hayden saw the dig and TV and Rainy, his cousin

642
00:39:07,551 --> 00:39:13,631
Speaker 4: who was his closest lifetime friend, and said, quote, they're

643
00:39:13,672 --> 00:39:18,192
Speaker 4: digging in the wrong fucking place. That was upheld by

644
00:39:18,232 --> 00:39:23,352
Speaker 4: the fact that we found nothing in that area at all.

645
00:39:23,392 --> 00:39:27,152
Speaker 4: We dug the hole. It wasn't that a whole anything

646
00:39:27,232 --> 00:39:29,631
Speaker 4: that the one that we dug when it was the

647
00:39:29,632 --> 00:39:32,911
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen hole that the police dug, it was nothing

648
00:39:33,312 --> 00:39:36,951
Speaker 4: compared to the hug that we did recently. That was

649
00:39:36,991 --> 00:39:41,832
Speaker 4: a massive deed. They had dug a hole. I think

650
00:39:42,632 --> 00:39:45,352
Speaker 4: I thought I got from watching it and seeing it

651
00:39:45,991 --> 00:39:49,671
Speaker 4: and listening to them, was we just dug a hole

652
00:39:49,712 --> 00:39:52,431
Speaker 4: to shut us up again, once again shut us up.

653
00:39:52,712 --> 00:39:58,272
Speaker 4: It didn't, but they thought it would. So the deed

654
00:39:58,471 --> 00:40:02,431
Speaker 4: was unsuccessful in the first since because I think it

655
00:40:02,592 --> 00:40:06,272
Speaker 4: was the wrong place. The key was that the guy

656
00:40:06,312 --> 00:40:10,072
Speaker 4: eyes went into a gate, the first gate and cast alway.

657
00:40:11,752 --> 00:40:14,631
Speaker 4: What we didn't realize at the time was that the

658
00:40:14,672 --> 00:40:22,111
Speaker 4: first gate in twenty thirteen was not the first gate

659
00:40:23,031 --> 00:40:28,431
Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty six. The first gate was further back. Now.

660
00:40:28,471 --> 00:40:33,472
Speaker 4: That wasn't until we dug the second hole no further

661
00:40:33,632 --> 00:40:37,071
Speaker 4: and we found something. With a ground penetaric radar and

662
00:40:37,192 --> 00:40:40,471
Speaker 4: equipment that we used, we found some anomalies there. A

663
00:40:40,551 --> 00:40:43,552
Speaker 4: hole was dug. That hole was dug in twenty eighteen.

664
00:40:44,072 --> 00:40:47,712
Speaker 4: Again we found the hole with nothing in it. It's

665
00:40:47,792 --> 00:40:52,272
Speaker 4: been a massive hole. Nothing there. And what was interesting too,

666
00:40:52,431 --> 00:40:55,072
Speaker 4: was that we found another hole that had been dug

667
00:40:56,031 --> 00:40:58,872
Speaker 4: like an L shape towards the first hole throughout the

668
00:40:58,911 --> 00:41:01,551
Speaker 4: first hole dug by the two boys, which we could

669
00:41:01,592 --> 00:41:05,312
Speaker 4: see quite clearly on the graph that we had, and

670
00:41:05,352 --> 00:41:09,392
Speaker 4: then another one intersecting across the bottom of the first

671
00:41:09,392 --> 00:41:12,712
Speaker 4: hole of the twenty eighteen hole like an L shape,

672
00:41:13,551 --> 00:41:16,792
Speaker 4: And I wondered about why was that, Because when they

673
00:41:16,832 --> 00:41:20,872
Speaker 4: dug out that the bigger twenty eighteen hole, they dug

674
00:41:20,911 --> 00:41:25,911
Speaker 4: out both holes and there wasn't even a screw in

675
00:41:25,991 --> 00:41:28,472
Speaker 4: the second hold that the added hole didn't have anything

676
00:41:28,511 --> 00:41:30,911
Speaker 4: in it. So somebody's dug up a massive grade hole

677
00:41:31,551 --> 00:41:34,992
Speaker 4: and not putting anything in it. Likewise, with the original

678
00:41:35,792 --> 00:41:38,992
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty six hole that we dug it twenty eighteen,

679
00:41:39,471 --> 00:41:42,632
Speaker 4: that two contained nothing a couple of animal bones about

680
00:41:43,031 --> 00:41:46,631
Speaker 4: two feet down. So we started, we went and dug

681
00:41:46,672 --> 00:41:50,431
Speaker 4: again at a really really big deal. I think we

682
00:41:50,511 --> 00:41:55,152
Speaker 4: dug ten thousand cubic medias in the initiative, and that's

683
00:41:55,511 --> 00:42:00,392
Speaker 4: a massive hole. Then things started to happen. If the

684
00:42:00,471 --> 00:42:03,031
Speaker 4: things started to happen. On the last air of the

685
00:42:03,031 --> 00:42:05,911
Speaker 4: Big D we had a member of the public standing

686
00:42:05,951 --> 00:42:10,232
Speaker 4: beside press conference that we were holding. We had fifteen

687
00:42:10,232 --> 00:42:13,312
Speaker 4: minutes to get off site, so it was last press conference,

688
00:42:13,431 --> 00:42:19,071
Speaker 4: see you later word. So he approached us and gave

689
00:42:19,152 --> 00:42:22,752
Speaker 4: some information of some research he'd been doing as a

690
00:42:22,792 --> 00:42:25,352
Speaker 4: member of the public and also as a former employee

691
00:42:25,672 --> 00:42:30,592
Speaker 4: of Castle like about the more likely area of where

692
00:42:30,632 --> 00:42:35,191
Speaker 4: the children might be bed. He nominated cut a long

693
00:42:35,232 --> 00:42:39,951
Speaker 4: story short, he nominated the very northeastern corner as being

694
00:42:40,031 --> 00:42:44,312
Speaker 4: the place where the ship hit. That Hayden had inferred

695
00:42:44,312 --> 00:42:50,472
Speaker 4: to was that's where all the rubbish, trash whatever from

696
00:42:50,712 --> 00:42:55,992
Speaker 4: the factory that we've gone in that northeastern corner. Another

697
00:42:56,031 --> 00:42:59,951
Speaker 4: thing had happened after the guy had spoken to us

698
00:42:59,951 --> 00:43:05,711
Speaker 4: about what his research had shown. Stuart on a phone call. Yeah,

699
00:43:05,752 --> 00:43:06,031
Speaker 4: there was.

700
00:43:07,672 --> 00:43:11,992
Speaker 3: Let's call the lady Sharon. She called. She'd been watching

701
00:43:12,031 --> 00:43:16,471
Speaker 3: the dig to say that she had been abused and

702
00:43:16,872 --> 00:43:22,992
Speaker 3: that she was told some certain information regarding the same corner.

703
00:43:23,872 --> 00:43:26,672
Speaker 3: They don't know each other. They corroborated that same corner.

704
00:43:27,352 --> 00:43:29,071
Speaker 3: And I think that one time we were going to

705
00:43:29,112 --> 00:43:32,191
Speaker 3: write the chapter called under the Peppercorn Tree, because that's

706
00:43:32,232 --> 00:43:35,712
Speaker 3: where the peppercorn is. But she was She spoke to

707
00:43:35,752 --> 00:43:40,832
Speaker 3: me about being sexually abused inside those cast like cottages.

708
00:43:40,911 --> 00:43:44,551
Speaker 3: She spoke about the corner, the far corner under the

709
00:43:44,592 --> 00:43:45,632
Speaker 3: peppercorn tree.

710
00:43:45,752 --> 00:43:48,911
Speaker 1: There was a couple of cottages on the cast Aloys site,

711
00:43:48,951 --> 00:43:50,712
Speaker 1: and there was one in particular that was known as

712
00:43:50,752 --> 00:43:53,832
Speaker 1: Harry's cottage that he only had access to but you

713
00:43:53,951 --> 00:43:55,752
Speaker 1: had heard that it was where he staught a lot

714
00:43:55,792 --> 00:43:56,832
Speaker 1: of those silk dresses.

715
00:43:57,392 --> 00:43:58,352
Speaker 3: That that's correct.

716
00:43:58,431 --> 00:43:59,512
Speaker 2: We talked about earlier.

717
00:43:59,872 --> 00:44:01,671
Speaker 3: That was it was under lock and key, and it

718
00:44:01,712 --> 00:44:04,791
Speaker 3: was Harry's cottage, so no one was allowed in there.

719
00:44:05,152 --> 00:44:10,272
Speaker 3: So what she had described inside those cottages, myself and

720
00:44:10,312 --> 00:44:13,591
Speaker 3: Bill have been inside that cottage before they've been demolished.

721
00:44:14,192 --> 00:44:16,911
Speaker 3: And she was talking about the wood paneling in the

722
00:44:16,951 --> 00:44:21,072
Speaker 3: second room and lo and behold, the old nineteen sixty

723
00:44:21,232 --> 00:44:25,032
Speaker 3: seventies wood paneling was there. So she had been inside

724
00:44:25,031 --> 00:44:30,272
Speaker 3: those cottages and that's where the sexual abuse that occurred.

725
00:44:30,392 --> 00:44:34,752
Speaker 3: She was very descriptive what she also and I've learned

726
00:44:34,792 --> 00:44:37,431
Speaker 3: this that when people are talking about their sexual abuse,

727
00:44:37,471 --> 00:44:40,591
Speaker 3: when they start to talk about the colors and the

728
00:44:40,632 --> 00:44:44,352
Speaker 3: fuel and the smell, they're actually living it. They're not

729
00:44:44,471 --> 00:44:48,992
Speaker 3: making it up. So the more she talked, I basically said,

730
00:44:49,232 --> 00:44:52,272
Speaker 3: this is a job for Bill. Being a trained detective,

731
00:44:52,792 --> 00:44:55,511
Speaker 3: I found her very credible. What she was saying was

732
00:44:55,592 --> 00:44:59,632
Speaker 3: very credible, and it corroborated what other people were saying

733
00:44:59,872 --> 00:45:03,991
Speaker 3: that she couldn't possibly know. And she mentioned names, you know,

734
00:45:04,072 --> 00:45:07,192
Speaker 3: she couldn't possibly have known unless she was there. So

735
00:45:07,471 --> 00:45:12,232
Speaker 3: after talking to her. I was convinced that she was

736
00:45:12,272 --> 00:45:16,272
Speaker 3: telling the truth, and I introduced her to Bill Hayes.

737
00:45:16,551 --> 00:45:19,392
Speaker 3: We knew we were under something, but this really nailed it.

738
00:45:20,031 --> 00:45:24,112
Speaker 4: I found her to be reluctantes. Someone can said it

739
00:45:24,152 --> 00:45:27,991
Speaker 4: that way. It was like pulling teeth really, but you

740
00:45:28,112 --> 00:45:30,231
Speaker 4: get there, you get stuff. And she had stuff to say,

741
00:45:31,152 --> 00:45:37,631
Speaker 4: and she had told me about there's a note that

742
00:45:37,792 --> 00:45:43,111
Speaker 4: was left on the gate that Castle Oay in twenty sixteen,

743
00:45:43,792 --> 00:45:48,992
Speaker 4: the fiftieth anniversary of the children being abducted. In that note,

744
00:45:49,312 --> 00:45:52,711
Speaker 4: and it says that the two girls were bury there

745
00:45:53,192 --> 00:45:57,192
Speaker 4: Castle Oi, a little boy wasn't and may you rest

746
00:45:57,232 --> 00:45:59,031
Speaker 4: in peace? Or may you rest in peace? All that

747
00:45:59,072 --> 00:46:01,792
Speaker 4: sort of stuff. It was a note that really picked

748
00:46:01,792 --> 00:46:07,471
Speaker 4: our interest back in twenty sixteen because we felt that

749
00:46:07,551 --> 00:46:10,511
Speaker 4: the way this note was done and the trouble they

750
00:46:10,551 --> 00:46:13,591
Speaker 4: had gone to make it the way they had, this

751
00:46:13,632 --> 00:46:17,551
Speaker 4: person knew something. On the bottom of the note was

752
00:46:18,312 --> 00:46:22,352
Speaker 4: the initials C dot S dot dot dot, So we

753
00:46:22,392 --> 00:46:25,192
Speaker 4: can work out who that was. There was one person

754
00:46:25,232 --> 00:46:28,591
Speaker 4: we thought it was, but we'd improved me wrong. And

755
00:46:28,911 --> 00:46:32,751
Speaker 4: I spoke to her about that. She told me that

756
00:46:32,792 --> 00:46:37,551
Speaker 4: she had created and left it out. She described the

757
00:46:37,672 --> 00:46:41,832
Speaker 4: leper set set she used to create it, and also

758
00:46:42,112 --> 00:46:45,951
Speaker 4: the typewriter that she used to type it, and the

759
00:46:46,072 --> 00:46:50,111
Speaker 4: type caster was on there of that type typewriter. I

760
00:46:50,152 --> 00:46:53,911
Speaker 4: asked her what the initial CS meant, because her initials

761
00:46:53,951 --> 00:46:57,591
Speaker 4: were not CS. She described to me that that was

762
00:46:57,592 --> 00:47:01,471
Speaker 4: a cryptic cross word clue that she just wanted to give,

763
00:47:02,712 --> 00:47:07,071
Speaker 4: and CS dot dot dot stance for CS Loose, who

764
00:47:07,152 --> 00:47:09,872
Speaker 4: was the author of the line of Witch and the Wardrobe,

765
00:47:10,192 --> 00:47:13,431
Speaker 4: which was Jane's favorite book at the time of her abduction,

766
00:47:14,152 --> 00:47:17,111
Speaker 4: and that was their cryptic clue she gave. We went

767
00:47:17,112 --> 00:47:21,272
Speaker 4: across and spent the entire day with her, interviewing her

768
00:47:22,672 --> 00:47:27,872
Speaker 4: by or the tap and we were recording, and then

769
00:47:27,991 --> 00:47:33,952
Speaker 4: finished up with Allie detext test. She told me about

770
00:47:34,031 --> 00:47:38,191
Speaker 4: certain things that happened within her family that were pedophiles.

771
00:47:38,752 --> 00:47:42,191
Speaker 4: She had a family of pedophiles. She was taken by

772
00:47:42,592 --> 00:47:46,192
Speaker 4: some pedophile members of her family to visit a friend

773
00:47:46,632 --> 00:47:48,631
Speaker 4: in South Australia when she was about ten or twelve

774
00:47:48,712 --> 00:47:51,992
Speaker 4: years old during the school holidays and she was taken

775
00:47:52,031 --> 00:47:57,111
Speaker 4: to Castlelone and she was met never met at the

776
00:47:57,112 --> 00:48:00,991
Speaker 4: castle by the owner of the factory, Harry Phipps. We

777
00:48:01,031 --> 00:48:05,232
Speaker 4: took him to the foundry to see the foundry, showed

778
00:48:05,272 --> 00:48:09,551
Speaker 4: her his car Pontier Cuisianne, and then took her to

779
00:48:09,712 --> 00:48:14,872
Speaker 4: his cottage, that cottage that he only he had. While

780
00:48:14,872 --> 00:48:18,032
Speaker 4: he was in there, he showed her racks containing satin

781
00:48:18,072 --> 00:48:21,471
Speaker 4: clothes dresses hanging up and asked her what she'd like

782
00:48:21,511 --> 00:48:24,872
Speaker 4: to pick one that once she had loved. She picked

783
00:48:24,911 --> 00:48:28,192
Speaker 4: one flother or too big for her, and then he

784
00:48:28,272 --> 00:48:31,792
Speaker 4: took her into the room, laid her down, and I

785
00:48:31,872 --> 00:48:36,111
Speaker 4: maginally raped her fresh for jointly raping her got up

786
00:48:36,112 --> 00:48:39,192
Speaker 4: and left the room for a short time and returned

787
00:48:39,232 --> 00:48:43,072
Speaker 4: to the room wearing a satin dress that she picked,

788
00:48:43,991 --> 00:48:47,471
Speaker 4: and he anally raped her. And we know this was

789
00:48:47,551 --> 00:48:51,392
Speaker 4: more than one person has been Harry's m o vgile

790
00:48:51,471 --> 00:48:53,991
Speaker 4: and adele rat. She then talked to me about the

791
00:48:53,991 --> 00:48:57,272
Speaker 4: bomb on children. She told me that one of her

792
00:48:57,392 --> 00:49:03,031
Speaker 4: rapists as a child was another pedophile who was called John,

793
00:49:04,752 --> 00:49:09,272
Speaker 4: and John had basically held her captain of you like

794
00:49:10,232 --> 00:49:13,232
Speaker 4: back when she was about twenty one one years old

795
00:49:13,672 --> 00:49:17,672
Speaker 4: in his house interstate and when she wasn't handcuffed to

796
00:49:17,712 --> 00:49:20,832
Speaker 4: the table, he had a shotgun in her face. She said.

797
00:49:22,031 --> 00:49:27,152
Speaker 4: He told the story of the Bonbone children and Harry Phipps.

798
00:49:27,632 --> 00:49:31,632
Speaker 4: This man knew Harry and admitted that he was a

799
00:49:32,551 --> 00:49:37,312
Speaker 4: member of Harry's pedophile group. She saw the story that

800
00:49:37,471 --> 00:49:41,872
Speaker 4: he was drunk, but he was lucid. He told her

801
00:49:42,592 --> 00:49:48,832
Speaker 4: that he'd been told by someone that the children had

802
00:49:48,872 --> 00:49:54,111
Speaker 4: been abducted from the College reserve and taken to the

803
00:49:54,192 --> 00:49:59,112
Speaker 4: Castle Life factory on the day of their production. During

804
00:49:59,152 --> 00:50:02,591
Speaker 4: that first day, for some reason, the little boy right,

805
00:50:03,632 --> 00:50:07,392
Speaker 4: something had happened there, and he took him away and

806
00:50:07,471 --> 00:50:10,991
Speaker 4: placed them in some nearby stables, and then took her

807
00:50:11,072 --> 00:50:17,511
Speaker 4: back to the cottages where the girls were raped by

808
00:50:17,592 --> 00:50:25,152
Speaker 4: Harry Phipps, by Hayden Phipps, and by another person called

809
00:50:25,551 --> 00:50:30,991
Speaker 4: Bill or William Robson. Apparently that was how the rapes occurred.

810
00:50:31,352 --> 00:50:36,071
Speaker 4: That Hayden had raped Jane, only Mary and Robson had

811
00:50:36,192 --> 00:50:42,512
Speaker 4: raped Jane and Anna. Little Lada had become extremely upset

812
00:50:42,991 --> 00:50:45,671
Speaker 4: on one of the days the first day and had

813
00:50:45,712 --> 00:50:50,551
Speaker 4: been brutally assaulted physically by Phipps. Not have to say

814
00:50:50,551 --> 00:50:54,032
Speaker 4: I was a hard and investigator. We see lots of stuff,

815
00:50:54,911 --> 00:50:58,032
Speaker 4: and it made me feel sick when I was being

816
00:50:58,031 --> 00:51:00,672
Speaker 4: told what she told me. The children were kept for

817
00:51:00,672 --> 00:51:04,152
Speaker 4: two days being raped and kept overnight in cupboards in

818
00:51:04,272 --> 00:51:09,551
Speaker 4: the cottages, locked in cupboards would be absolutely terrifying. I

819
00:51:09,592 --> 00:51:15,111
Speaker 4: was afraid of the park. I can't believe what. Excuse me?

820
00:51:15,752 --> 00:51:16,552
Speaker 2: Do you need a moment?

821
00:51:16,632 --> 00:51:16,872
Speaker 4: Bill?

822
00:51:17,471 --> 00:51:21,472
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and understand that that's that's how I felt

823
00:51:21,712 --> 00:51:26,112
Speaker 3: when he first told me. The other thing is that

824
00:51:26,112 --> 00:51:30,152
Speaker 3: that lady mentioned the two names, Bill Robson and a

825
00:51:30,192 --> 00:51:33,392
Speaker 3: guy called John Little. Bill called me and said, have

826
00:51:33,471 --> 00:51:37,712
Speaker 3: you heard of these people? I called Hayden's closest cousin

827
00:51:38,832 --> 00:51:41,991
Speaker 3: and I said, have you heard of these people? And

828
00:51:42,031 --> 00:51:45,152
Speaker 3: he said yeah. He said one was a close family friend.

829
00:51:45,392 --> 00:51:48,312
Speaker 3: He used to Harry all the time because he only

830
00:51:48,471 --> 00:51:51,151
Speaker 3: the closest cousin lived only around the corner. So there

831
00:51:51,232 --> 00:51:53,792
Speaker 3: was number one. She couldn't possibly have known these people

832
00:51:53,792 --> 00:51:57,272
Speaker 3: without being told that she was there. And the other

833
00:51:57,352 --> 00:52:00,671
Speaker 3: one was Bill Robson. I said, you know who's this guy?

834
00:52:00,792 --> 00:52:04,752
Speaker 3: And he worked at castell Or. He was basically Harry

835
00:52:04,752 --> 00:52:08,352
Speaker 3: Phipps's right hand man. So there's two names, and she

836
00:52:08,431 --> 00:52:10,431
Speaker 3: didn't just pluck them out of the air. She had

837
00:52:10,471 --> 00:52:13,392
Speaker 3: to have been there. And so I called Bill, and

838
00:52:13,431 --> 00:52:16,352
Speaker 3: there was another thing that we knew she was truthful,

839
00:52:16,392 --> 00:52:19,471
Speaker 3: But to come out with just mentioning a person's name

840
00:52:20,112 --> 00:52:22,951
Speaker 3: unless you've been there, you know, you don't guess those

841
00:52:22,991 --> 00:52:25,071
Speaker 3: sorts of things. So I passed it on to Bill,

842
00:52:25,152 --> 00:52:29,872
Speaker 3: and it was another another aspect of her truthfulness of

843
00:52:29,911 --> 00:52:30,512
Speaker 3: what happened.

844
00:52:30,792 --> 00:52:34,591
Speaker 4: The man was speaking to her a description of the

845
00:52:34,632 --> 00:52:37,832
Speaker 4: whole They were digging at the peppercorn tree, the Roth

846
00:52:37,872 --> 00:52:43,192
Speaker 4: eastern corner, and he shaid that they were buried on

847
00:52:43,312 --> 00:52:47,031
Speaker 4: the concrete, and they corrected it and shaid it was

848
00:52:47,072 --> 00:52:51,431
Speaker 4: like the concrete dust dust, but they didn't make it hard.

849
00:52:51,431 --> 00:52:53,752
Speaker 4: They didn't put water on it because of the human

850
00:52:53,832 --> 00:52:56,872
Speaker 4: cry that was going on at the time, because of

851
00:52:56,911 --> 00:53:01,551
Speaker 4: the abduction, and they just covered it up and thought

852
00:53:01,592 --> 00:53:04,951
Speaker 4: it hard and naturally or whatever. So that was thrown

853
00:53:04,991 --> 00:53:08,431
Speaker 4: over the bodies. Because he used to tell her when

854
00:53:08,431 --> 00:53:11,591
Speaker 4: she was a child, if you don't do as you're told,

855
00:53:11,632 --> 00:53:13,631
Speaker 4: you be buried on the concrete like the bomb. Once

856
00:53:14,392 --> 00:53:16,911
Speaker 4: we got back in, and we were really grateful to

857
00:53:16,951 --> 00:53:20,551
Speaker 4: get back in because we hadn't reached that point when

858
00:53:20,592 --> 00:53:23,752
Speaker 4: we threw the track. We can imagine my heart sinking

859
00:53:23,792 --> 00:53:25,591
Speaker 4: because I knew what I was looking for, no one

860
00:53:25,632 --> 00:53:31,352
Speaker 4: else did. I didn't tell them about the gray concrete,

861
00:53:31,672 --> 00:53:34,551
Speaker 4: and I was looking to see if I had seen that,

862
00:53:35,951 --> 00:53:40,472
Speaker 4: And before we got to that part where I believed

863
00:53:40,511 --> 00:53:43,631
Speaker 4: it would be, we threw the track and we were

864
00:53:43,632 --> 00:53:47,032
Speaker 4: told we couldn't come back. I was beside herself, basically

865
00:53:47,072 --> 00:53:50,752
Speaker 4: because I had to see that area to see was

866
00:53:50,752 --> 00:53:54,071
Speaker 4: there something there? Now, given she said that the kids

867
00:53:54,112 --> 00:53:58,911
Speaker 4: were there, buried there, and we're under this concrete powder.

868
00:53:59,272 --> 00:54:02,792
Speaker 4: So we dig on and when we got to the

869
00:54:02,792 --> 00:54:07,471
Speaker 4: peppercorn tree, we started to uncovered gray powder about three

870
00:54:07,511 --> 00:54:11,991
Speaker 4: feet down under the surface and as exactly as described

871
00:54:12,951 --> 00:54:17,352
Speaker 4: why the bloke who was telling a story to our victim,

872
00:54:17,792 --> 00:54:22,111
Speaker 4: exactly as described it was still powdered because it wasn't concrete.

873
00:54:22,551 --> 00:54:26,352
Speaker 4: That is very significant. There's no way that he, she,

874
00:54:26,792 --> 00:54:30,471
Speaker 4: or anyone could have known that that powder was buried

875
00:54:30,792 --> 00:54:34,951
Speaker 4: in that ground three feet deep on the surface to

876
00:54:34,991 --> 00:54:38,632
Speaker 4: tell us that that's what was throwing over the kids,

877
00:54:39,232 --> 00:54:43,392
Speaker 4: that was very telling for me. We didn't find anything,

878
00:54:44,072 --> 00:54:47,471
Speaker 4: which was curious in that northeast corner. That makes me

879
00:54:47,511 --> 00:54:50,312
Speaker 4: more curious than anything because you remember that was a

880
00:54:50,352 --> 00:54:54,152
Speaker 4: ship hit, so something's been through there.

881
00:54:54,672 --> 00:54:55,272
Speaker 2: Cleaned it out.

882
00:54:56,872 --> 00:54:59,872
Speaker 3: There's what you're looking for with the CASTELOI or any

883
00:54:59,872 --> 00:55:04,392
Speaker 3: alloy factory. You've got to look at thet their waste material,

884
00:55:04,471 --> 00:55:08,151
Speaker 3: and it's quite extensive. That from chemical containers which are

885
00:55:08,152 --> 00:55:10,032
Speaker 3: made of metal, because you know, back in the nineteen

886
00:55:10,112 --> 00:55:13,712
Speaker 3: sixties everything was made for metal. It wasn't plastics. You know,

887
00:55:13,752 --> 00:55:15,832
Speaker 3: you brought your ice cream in an ice cream tin.

888
00:55:16,511 --> 00:55:21,552
Speaker 3: So you've got metal containers. You've got obviously filing shavings dross,

889
00:55:22,072 --> 00:55:28,071
Speaker 3: which is the leftover heavy metal material that's got to

890
00:55:28,072 --> 00:55:31,312
Speaker 3: be dumped somewhere. And that's when Hayden and I mentioned

891
00:55:31,312 --> 00:55:33,752
Speaker 3: this to Bill this morning for our next Facebook post.

892
00:55:34,511 --> 00:55:39,071
Speaker 3: Is he mentioned the pit not a pit. There is

893
00:55:39,152 --> 00:55:46,431
Speaker 3: a defined location the ship pit. As I said, he

894
00:55:46,431 --> 00:55:50,192
Speaker 3: he had a specific spot. Hence what Bill said earlier

895
00:55:50,352 --> 00:55:53,792
Speaker 3: they're digging in the fucking wrong spot is he knows

896
00:55:53,832 --> 00:55:57,392
Speaker 3: where that is where we dug. Either they've moved it

897
00:55:57,471 --> 00:56:00,272
Speaker 3: out or we're not quite in the right spot, because

898
00:56:00,312 --> 00:56:02,832
Speaker 3: I would have I was waiting. It's apart from the

899
00:56:02,911 --> 00:56:06,632
Speaker 3: children's remains, is that I was hoping that we would

900
00:56:06,792 --> 00:56:11,432
Speaker 3: hit canisters who will hit a metal, some sort of metal,

901
00:56:11,551 --> 00:56:14,591
Speaker 3: something that would indicate that there was a dump there.

902
00:56:14,632 --> 00:56:19,072
Speaker 3: There was a ship pit, and it hasn't been found either,

903
00:56:19,072 --> 00:56:23,192
Speaker 3: as Bill said, they've picked it up and taken it elsewhere,

904
00:56:23,471 --> 00:56:26,512
Speaker 3: or it's still there somewhere. But again it's like needle

905
00:56:26,551 --> 00:56:28,752
Speaker 3: and haste, where is the ship pit?

906
00:56:29,792 --> 00:56:34,952
Speaker 1: With that clarity, though, just to finish, is it enough

907
00:56:35,392 --> 00:56:39,352
Speaker 1: if we don't find the remains of these children? With

908
00:56:39,431 --> 00:56:41,832
Speaker 1: the clarity that you now have around this story and

909
00:56:42,031 --> 00:56:45,352
Speaker 1: the fact that that site now is going to be redeveloped,

910
00:56:45,352 --> 00:56:48,032
Speaker 1: they're going to build houses over the top of it,

911
00:56:48,192 --> 00:56:50,991
Speaker 1: there might not be recourse to check ever.

912
00:56:51,112 --> 00:56:54,471
Speaker 2: Again, and now there's not.

913
00:56:54,471 --> 00:56:57,111
Speaker 1: Too many people left alive who were directly involved in

914
00:56:57,152 --> 00:56:59,471
Speaker 1: all of this. I mean, Hayden has passed now, as

915
00:56:59,471 --> 00:57:03,631
Speaker 1: is Angela. So is there enough clarity around this?

916
00:57:03,672 --> 00:57:05,551
Speaker 2: Do we put this to rest? With what you found out?

917
00:57:06,471 --> 00:57:08,152
Speaker 3: I wouldn't put it to rest. I'd never put it

918
00:57:08,192 --> 00:57:12,712
Speaker 3: to rest. But we so far have done everything humanly

919
00:57:12,792 --> 00:57:18,032
Speaker 3: possible that we could possibly do. I disappointed. Yes, However,

920
00:57:18,792 --> 00:57:22,152
Speaker 3: it's now for the general public to come forward like

921
00:57:22,272 --> 00:57:27,112
Speaker 3: this lady. It's a domino effect. You get one person

922
00:57:27,192 --> 00:57:30,032
Speaker 3: coming forward to people, and this is what's happening now,

923
00:57:30,592 --> 00:57:33,672
Speaker 3: is that even with this podcast, with the book coming out,

924
00:57:34,192 --> 00:57:37,631
Speaker 3: I would be of the belief that other people will

925
00:57:37,672 --> 00:57:41,752
Speaker 3: now feel empowered, that they're going to be believed, that

926
00:57:41,832 --> 00:57:46,272
Speaker 3: they come forward with their story. So disappointed with the

927
00:57:46,352 --> 00:57:49,472
Speaker 3: dig but this I believe there's still more to go,

928
00:57:49,632 --> 00:57:53,072
Speaker 3: especially after this book and this podcast, is that people

929
00:57:53,152 --> 00:57:57,192
Speaker 3: will finally some people like the lady who or the

930
00:57:57,232 --> 00:58:02,672
Speaker 3: several ladies beforehand, will have the courage to come forward

931
00:58:02,712 --> 00:58:06,032
Speaker 3: and tell their story. If they feel that going to

932
00:58:06,072 --> 00:58:08,752
Speaker 3: the please to crime stoppers, I can understand that, will

933
00:58:08,792 --> 00:58:11,352
Speaker 3: they be believed, will somebody get back to them? Just

934
00:58:11,352 --> 00:58:15,272
Speaker 3: come to us direct. We will listen, because if it's

935
00:58:15,272 --> 00:58:18,672
Speaker 3: happened to one, two, and three, it's happened to twenty thirty.

936
00:58:18,912 --> 00:58:21,752
Speaker 3: And I'll give you an example. Jared Risdale, Catholic priest,

937
00:58:22,952 --> 00:58:26,192
Speaker 3: fifty four counts of child sexual abuse. It started with

938
00:58:26,392 --> 00:58:29,592
Speaker 3: one and that one person who came forward initially wasn't believed.

939
00:58:29,992 --> 00:58:33,272
Speaker 3: Now there's another fifty three. And that's what I believe,

940
00:58:33,312 --> 00:58:35,751
Speaker 3: and I'm quite sure Bill does is going to happen here.

941
00:58:39,352 --> 00:58:41,552
Speaker 1: Thank you to Stewart and Bill for helping us tell

942
00:58:41,552 --> 00:58:44,432
Speaker 1: this story. You can find their book, Unmasking the Killer

943
00:58:44,472 --> 00:58:46,512
Speaker 1: of the Missing Beaumont Children at the link in our

944
00:58:46,552 --> 00:58:50,232
Speaker 1: show notes True Crime Conversations is a Muma MEA podcast

945
00:58:50,272 --> 00:58:53,472
Speaker 1: hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced by Tarlie Blackman,

946
00:58:53,592 --> 00:58:55,312
Speaker 1: with audio designed by Jacob Brown.

947
00:58:55,712 --> 00:58:56,792
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.

948
00:58:56,992 --> 00:58:59,712
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation