Speaker 1: We acknowledged the traditional custodians of the land we're recording
Speaker 1: on today.
Speaker 2: Why should you have to take your kid away? If
Speaker 2: there's another kid.
Speaker 1: Bullying them their parent isn't present.
Speaker 2: Then you arc up and start shouting, Oh, who's kid
Speaker 2: is this? Who the mad shit is this?
Speaker 1: Get it out?
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to Eat, Sleep Shit, repeat your
Speaker 2: unhinged podcast about the madness that is novelhood and everything
Speaker 2: in between. I'm km according to the script.
Speaker 1: That right, that's right, I wrote it, and I'm krs
Speaker 1: k Resells. In case you miss last week's episode, we
Speaker 1: had a bit of a moan about newborn's ahead of mine,
Speaker 1: newborn arriving.
Speaker 2: Oh boy, has it arrived? We won't know, we will
Speaker 2: at the time of recording.
Speaker 1: You're unsure at this time, and I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: I should laugh or cry, because there's quite a lot
Speaker 1: that I forgot about. But it's just like riding a
Speaker 1: bike ride.
Speaker 2: I actually think it probably is yeah to be but
Speaker 2: you think, oh, I forgot that they shit nine times
Speaker 2: a day. But you're like, oh, it's ingrained in my
Speaker 2: memory how to swaddle in.
Speaker 1: Well, I had to hold someone's baby the other day
Speaker 1: and I was like feeding her, and then I was like,
Speaker 1: do I need to burp her? And her mom was like, yeah.
Speaker 2: They require the burbs on the show today. Is my
Speaker 2: toddler a bully? Well, it's easy to be encouraging of
Speaker 2: other parents when their kids are acting up. Oh it's
Speaker 2: not your fault, it's okay, or kids go through this.
Speaker 2: When you witness bad behavior from your toddler, it is
Speaker 2: really confronting and often you can't help but feel like
Speaker 2: you've failed. So can toddlers be bullies? And should we
Speaker 2: be a little bit concerned? We're getting to the bottom
Speaker 2: of it today.
Speaker 1: Now. A little reminder, we have pre recorded in the
Speaker 1: lead up for this baby coming out of hopefully my vagina,
Speaker 1: so we're not doing Pek and Pit because we thought
Speaker 1: they'd kind of like age but terribly. But don't worry.
Speaker 1: Pek and Pit will be back as soon as we
Speaker 1: are back to our regular recording schedules, So hang in there,
Speaker 1: Pek and Pit lovers. Toddler development is such a tricky time.
Speaker 1: They're suddenly mobile, with likes and dislikes and a very
Speaker 1: limited but spirited vocabulary to tell them when you get
Speaker 1: it wrong. Alongside this, their engagement with the world and
Speaker 1: their socialization with others increases rapidly. You start to get
Speaker 1: excited by the fact that your toddler can now play
Speaker 1: with others, and then comes that heartbreaking moment you witness
Speaker 1: your toddler being quote unquote bullied by another child or worse,
Speaker 1: them being the bully. Seeing these behaviors can be super
Speaker 1: triggering as a parent. For instance, watching another kid a
Speaker 1: certain behavior over yours can awaken the Mama bear inside
Speaker 1: of you, maybe even trigger some of your feelings around
Speaker 1: being picked on as a kid, and you want to
Speaker 1: jump up or jump in and say something. Or your
Speaker 1: sweet kid is the alpha at the playdates, snatching, hitting,
Speaker 1: biting and forcing you to leave. It's mortifying, no matter
Speaker 1: how encouraging the other parents are, and you leave feeling
Speaker 1: horrified and wondering, how did I end up with a
Speaker 1: bad kid?
Speaker 2: Why did I create a monster?
Speaker 1: I'm a good person and I swear so cal Have
Speaker 1: you been in situations where you've seen another toddler bully.
Speaker 1: I'm using it loosely just for the context of what
Speaker 1: we're talking about. Bully len or Len maybe being a
Speaker 1: little bit of a bully.
Speaker 2: I think because of Len's size. He would be hard
Speaker 2: to bully for other toddlers because he's a big boy.
Speaker 2: He's ginormous. So I haven't, which I actually think is
Speaker 2: probably a good thing. Yeah, because I really struggle with
Speaker 2: my own self control, and so if I saw a
Speaker 2: child doing something to Len, I think I would really struggle, Yeah,
Speaker 2: not to immediately step in and start parenting the other
Speaker 2: kid and shouting and calling the kid names. Potentially. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's in my nature. I'm a bier, Like I'm a dog.
Speaker 2: I bark a lot, and my bite is hard to
Speaker 2: so I just feel like it's probably my own impulse
Speaker 2: control and self control sucks, so which you know, I
Speaker 2: will have to get better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. I think it's like ingrained and answer. All
Speaker 1: we want to do is protect them. So if you
Speaker 1: see that, like you just automatically react in a way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've been just like i'd say, very normal circumstances
Speaker 2: like at those place and things. Yeah, if a little
Speaker 2: kid's trying to grab something off Lenny, but a big kid, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's always a lot older. Yeah, I guess because of
Speaker 2: his life. But I'll just be like no, no, We're
Speaker 2: just going to wait for him to finish playing that Lenny,
Speaker 2: once you finish playing with that yeah, or you know,
Speaker 2: now it's your turn to share the toy or whatever
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 1: So I find that it's also really dependent on how
Speaker 1: present the other parent is of the kid that's kind
Speaker 1: of maybe a little bit like rough and tumble, because
Speaker 1: I feel like if the parent is there, I'm watching
Speaker 1: it and kind of intercepting, you know, you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's so fine, don't worry, like blah blah blah. Okay.
Speaker 1: I'm using a personal example here, like at our local Westfield,
Speaker 1: there's this dad who always brings his kids to the.
Speaker 2: Playground, the one on the top floor that yeah, they.
Speaker 1: Play one and the dad sits there on his phone
Speaker 1: the whole time. And his daughter, she's a rough and
Speaker 1: tumble and she like fully pushes the other girls. So
Speaker 1: we then have to parent that kid. That doesn't make
Speaker 1: us feel good, and we're just.
Speaker 2: Like, control your kid.
Speaker 1: So I really think how much the parent is parenting,
Speaker 1: and that situation has a bit of an impact as
Speaker 1: well on how much you can tolerate.
Speaker 2: Well, remember that boat that I talked about. I went
Speaker 2: on with all of those kids, and you were like,
Speaker 2: what they didn't have life jackets. And I had to
Speaker 2: go up and get the parents because I was like,
Speaker 2: these aren't my kids. They were older. Yeah, And I
Speaker 2: was also like, I'm not here to tell these kids
Speaker 2: what to do. So I actually went upstairs to get
Speaker 2: the parents and I just said, hey, can someone come
Speaker 2: and help. Your kids aren't sharing? And then they didn't
Speaker 2: believe me, and I'm like, Okay, why would I be
Speaker 2: lying about.
Speaker 1: Such a thing would have fun?
Speaker 2: I just need to not be parenting. You're the ones
Speaker 2: that have left your kids to their own devices, literally,
Speaker 2: and then they're not sharing with another kid. I'm sure
Speaker 2: we can all agree that children should share. Please come
Speaker 2: and assist. I'm not.
Speaker 1: I really think it has a big impact on it
Speaker 1: how well you can function, and that situation when your
Speaker 1: kid's being picked on is how much the other parent
Speaker 1: cares so that you don't have to feel like your
Speaker 1: parents are overreaching.
Speaker 2: As well or also like then, I guess how sympathetic
Speaker 2: you'll be towards certain circumstances. Because there was an incident
Speaker 2: last year where there was a bitter in Lenny's room.
Speaker 2: I remember this, the infamous bitter.
Speaker 1: Yeh, I never tell you the name, but you know that.
Speaker 2: You know that they're there, and this was before they're
Speaker 2: really talking, so even the kid can't tell you who
Speaker 2: it is. But it was really awful. Like both Lenn
Speaker 2: and his cousin Wesley the Puff go to the same
Speaker 2: school and they were both repeatedly bitten and really really
Speaker 2: bad bite it's like bad bruises. First, they didn't want
Speaker 2: my child to be scared about going to daycare. Oh
Speaker 2: I'm going to get bitten.
Speaker 1: It's a safe space you want them to find going.
Speaker 2: Secondly, I didn't want to encourage that sort of behavior
Speaker 2: with him. The modeling other children's behavior is so common,
Speaker 2: so there was a bunch of different things. And also
Speaker 2: I was just annoyed that my kid was getting bitten,
Speaker 2: and I talked about it on socials and I had
Speaker 2: some parents reach out and just say because I was
Speaker 2: probably like a little bit angry at the time, you know,
Speaker 2: it's really bad to be the parent of a bitter
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my god, absolutely, because Luke
Speaker 2: and I have talked about that before, as we were
Speaker 2: both bullied younger. We've talked about how it would be
Speaker 2: worse to find out that our child is actually the bullied,
Speaker 2: totally bully whatever you would say, because it's just awful.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you feel inherently that you've failed as a parent.
Speaker 2: That you've created a bad person. And it's funny because
Speaker 2: the educators at daycare can't tell parents who the child is,
Speaker 2: which you know, the reasons are that parents can then
Speaker 2: get involved in I just think, guys, they're kids, like,
Speaker 2: please don't go and yell at a child. Then I'm
Speaker 2: the one that just said that. I so, but it's.
Speaker 1: Funny the reason why they don't tell us.
Speaker 2: I found out who it was, though, and it actually
Speaker 2: made me feel better. I don't know why, but I
Speaker 2: felt like because I knew the kid, it was better
Speaker 2: to put a face to the name.
Speaker 1: Well, often you think it's going to be like this
Speaker 1: kid that you don't even know about, the bad boy
Speaker 1: or gone. And I was like, oh, it's your best friend.
Speaker 2: Or it was just he wasn't their best friend. But
Speaker 2: he was a really cute little like he's a nice
Speaker 2: enough kid. Yeah, and there was a lot of stuff
Speaker 2: going on with the older class. Whoever, and my niece
Speaker 2: is in where even worse, like he was holding her
Speaker 2: down and biting her. One day she was napping and
Speaker 2: he pulled her pants down and bit her on the bottom,
Speaker 2: which I actually said. I was like, Okay, that's that's resault.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not.
Speaker 2: Cool, And where the hell were the teachers to allow
Speaker 2: all of that to happen. But it turns out so
Speaker 2: both of the boys their parents were going through something
Speaker 2: pretty hectic, and it goes to show that sometimes it
Speaker 2: can be really indicative of things that are going on
Speaker 2: at home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good point, something that I hadn't
Speaker 1: even thought of.
Speaker 2: And I truly just do not believe that children are
Speaker 2: bad or inherently evil. Of course, there are exceptions to
Speaker 2: the rule with born sociopaths and that sort of thing,
Speaker 2: and I just think that they're expressing themselves in ways
Speaker 2: that they haven't been taught not to. And I don't
Speaker 2: yell loudly often I'm a yeller, But the few times
Speaker 2: that I have absolutely lost my shit is when Lenny
Speaker 2: has hurt. That's just, to me, the biggest thing that
Speaker 2: kids we do not treat other people badly or animals.
Speaker 2: So twice Lenny has kicked the cat. When I tell
Speaker 2: you that I had not yelled that loudly before at him,
Speaker 2: he started to bare his eyes out, which then made
Speaker 2: me feel terrible because I scared him so much. You
Speaker 2: know what, though he hasn't done it again. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: I yelled so loudly. The cat was here first.
Speaker 1: That's what I always say. The rue hour was here first,
Speaker 1: being nice to him.
Speaker 2: Don't kick the cat like, do not kick animal. And
Speaker 2: a few times he's pushed his cousins. One time he
Speaker 2: almost pushed Wesley down this ste and I think, once again,
Speaker 2: it comes back to his size. I think when a
Speaker 2: child is bigger, it's really easy for them to assert
Speaker 2: their dominance without even realizing that they're doing it by
Speaker 2: being a little bit pushy.
Speaker 1: They don't realize their strength.
Speaker 2: So that's why in some cases we're not supposed to
Speaker 2: do this. But I'll be like bloody pushing back.
Speaker 3: I know, I'm fox sake, stand up for yourself because
Speaker 3: it goes I'm like the same size, pushing back, pushing back.
Speaker 2: It's always like the closest people that he's with. I
Speaker 2: think though, Yeah, they's like an a of.
Speaker 1: Safety, familiarity and who they're kind of acting out against.
Speaker 1: In our case, that hasn't been random.
Speaker 2: No, it hasn't been random at all. In Len's case,
Speaker 2: the only person that wasn't family including Percy that he
Speaker 2: pushed once was Bailey, Ashley's youngest two's six months older
Speaker 2: than him, so yeah, same age, and I got so angry,
Speaker 2: but actually was like, hell, they're little kids, They're gonna
Speaker 2: push each other, and like it's okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2: I haven't luckily had to deal with anything really yeah yet,
Speaker 2: very just basic level, normal toddler stuff. He's pretty gentle
Speaker 2: overall and very caring. You were saying that Rue has
Speaker 2: even hit you.
Speaker 1: She has. She has, and it's not like super hard
Speaker 1: or anything like that, but it's I know that you
Speaker 1: picked this up from daycare because for me, I've definitely
Speaker 1: experienced both when Rue has sort of been really placid
Speaker 1: and gentle for most of her life and in situations
Speaker 1: she's a bit more of like a follower. She's not
Speaker 1: like a leader, right, So I see her with like
Speaker 1: more dominant kids, she kind of falls into line, and
Speaker 1: same as you. We Beck and I Goldie and her
Speaker 1: have a little bit of a rough and tumble. I'm like,
Speaker 1: push her back row and Beck's like push her back rough,
Speaker 1: Like that's how we deal with it because we think
Speaker 1: it's funny.
Speaker 2: I also think that there's an element like we're not
Speaker 2: saying fight them back, it's just it's okay to play
Speaker 2: rough sometimes and yeah, yeah, yeah, the kid, you can
Speaker 2: give it to them a little bit.
Speaker 1: Exactly, especially when they're like your best friend that you
Speaker 1: see all the time.
Speaker 2: Come on, like old He's probably like, yes.
Speaker 3: Sir.
Speaker 1: To you. But then I've also seen in those situations
Speaker 1: like how distressing it is, like you said about the
Speaker 1: parents of the bitters, with the parents who of the
Speaker 1: kid that's like a little bit more rough and tumble.
Speaker 1: And I would always just say their kids exactly, like Ashley,
Speaker 1: their kids, like they don't understand, like this is how
Speaker 1: they're expressing themselves, Like it's totally fine. But until like
Speaker 1: I've now been in situations where Rue has kind of
Speaker 1: like been a bit pushy, and I have just felt
Speaker 1: this deep sense of failure inside me to see her
Speaker 1: act that way. And then obviously during my pregnancy, her
Speaker 1: demeanor has changed a little bit with me, Like I
Speaker 1: think it's also just being a toddler, but it's very
Speaker 1: hard because there's a lot of change going on, so
Speaker 1: I don't know what it's actually down to. But she's
Speaker 1: just learned really to say no and.
Speaker 2: To no because they're proving that they can be defiant
Speaker 2: and there yeah.
Speaker 1: And I'll be like, don't hit mummy and she gets
Speaker 1: very embarrassed. She's like, oh no. And then I asked
Speaker 1: like daycare, I'm like, has her behavior changed? And they're like,
Speaker 1: now she's an angel? So it just makes she doesn't
Speaker 1: do it with Charlie in the situations in public places
Speaker 1: where she's been a bit rough and tumble with her
Speaker 1: friends or people that we know, like kids that she's
Speaker 1: familiar with. I have felt like a drop of what
Speaker 1: other parents must be feeling having a kid that is,
Speaker 1: you know, super alpha, super rough and tumble, just a
Speaker 1: bit more boisterous than the other kids. It was enough
Speaker 1: for me to go I think we need to do
Speaker 1: an episode on it, because even though we know, until
Speaker 1: you're the parent of a child that does it, I
Speaker 1: think there's no way to really understand how because parents
Speaker 1: will leave places because their kid is acting up, which
Speaker 1: I think is one way to do it, Like sometimes
Speaker 1: I just need to.
Speaker 2: You kind of have to though, I've got to remove
Speaker 2: them from this situation that badly behaved with other children
Speaker 2: and it could another child. Of course, you have to
Speaker 2: leave but that.
Speaker 1: Sucks, oh one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: That would be so mortifying and you would just feel
Speaker 2: so shit.
Speaker 1: And it's a lot of like what am I doing
Speaker 1: wrong as a parent, like exactly a nice people, why
Speaker 1: does our kid act out like this?
Speaker 2: And it is I know, different personalities.
Speaker 1: Different personalities, And I think it's just really understanding that
Speaker 1: our brains are still developing up until our early twenties. Right,
Speaker 1: So toddler's age between one and three, think about how
Speaker 1: long they've been a life, Like they're not getting empathy.
Speaker 1: I think empathy is coming in at like four or
Speaker 1: five years old. Some kids are younger, but just their
Speaker 1: ability to like understand emotion or be capable of it.
Speaker 1: If frud does something, I'm like, you go and say
Speaker 1: sorry to her, but you know I meant to say that,
Speaker 1: are you really? Because then they it's a false apology
Speaker 1: and they don't really mean it.
Speaker 2: That is true, right, I mean at all they.
Speaker 1: Don't because Ru's like sorry, and I'm like, I know
Speaker 1: that that's not the right way, but what is so true?
Speaker 2: Because I literally will be like, no, you're not getting
Speaker 2: it to you say sorry, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 1: Like that is not teaching them anything. At all. It's
Speaker 1: just teaching them just to say whatever I need to
Speaker 1: lie to get out of it. So they say instead
Speaker 1: of that is to be like, hey, look at Kelly,
Speaker 1: she's really upset at the moment. Yeah, do you think
Speaker 1: that that's okay? We need to go and check on
Speaker 1: her and make sure she's okay, and maybe we say
Speaker 1: sorry that we made her sad. So that's kind of
Speaker 1: how they tell you to do. It is like to
Speaker 1: give them more of context. But Charlie laughs because he'll
Speaker 1: come home and.
Speaker 2: He'll be going, do you understand.
Speaker 1: I'll reasoning with my toddler. I'll be like, Rue, I
Speaker 1: just need you to finish dinner. You haven't had much
Speaker 1: food today. This is yummy, this is all of your
Speaker 1: favorite things. Have this. Then we'll go read books. And
Speaker 1: Charlie's just like, babe, she's a toddler, Like, he'll send
Speaker 1: me these videos. Don't try and reason with your toddler.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, what are I fucking's supposed to do?
Speaker 2: I kind of think it kind of works sometimes like
Speaker 2: it does it?
Speaker 1: Or they just are like, mum seems a bit stressed,
Speaker 1: maybe better than fall into play.
Speaker 2: No. I feel like also one day it will click.
Speaker 1: It will. Yeah, they learning.
Speaker 2: So if we're displaying the right sort of behavior and
Speaker 2: explaining things rather than just saying, eat your dinner, yeah,
Speaker 2: you explain why to me. That makes sense.
Speaker 1: I agree because I remember when I was like younger,
Speaker 1: maybe like early twenties, I met these kids and they
Speaker 1: were just really emotionally intelligent and I kind of commented
Speaker 1: on I can't remember where this was, but I remember
Speaker 1: the parents said, we just never spoke to them like
Speaker 1: they were babies. We always spoke to them like normally.
Speaker 1: I think that obviously can work like resonate with some
Speaker 1: kids more so than others. Yeah, but it's an interesting
Speaker 1: way to kind of look at it, like I'm gonna
Speaker 1: stick to my reasoning with my toddler, who's idea of
Speaker 1: what I'm.
Speaker 2: Talking Like, I one hundred percent always will reason with
Speaker 2: Lenny and like explained him why. And when we were
Speaker 2: setting up for Christmas, I don't know why this just
Speaker 2: sprung into my mind, but it was quite funny. I
Speaker 2: was letting them help up at my parents' house, but
Speaker 2: like sort of around the back of the tree. And
Speaker 2: then Evelyn was like, my mummy and Daddy let me
Speaker 2: decorate our Christmas tree at home, and I said.
Speaker 1: The full sentences.
Speaker 2: They're a little bit nicer than I am, then I
Speaker 2: guess a little bit more rational. Then she goes, can
Speaker 2: I help with the tinsel? And I said, well, how
Speaker 2: about we have a lesson in cool tones versus warm tones?
Speaker 2: And why I'm not joking and you know you're laughing
Speaker 2: at me. Guess what four year old now knows the
Speaker 2: difference between cool tones and warm tones and can pick
Speaker 2: them up.
Speaker 1: That is really funny.
Speaker 2: And she also asks me for my design ideas. Now
Speaker 2: when she would like to help me with something, she'd
Speaker 2: be like, I'd like you to teach me the design
Speaker 2: ideas behind that, because I'm like, how about we just
Speaker 2: sit down and have a look and map out where
Speaker 2: the tinsel should go?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right, yeah, okay, So giving the context, she's a
Speaker 1: little bit older though, so she can probably comprehend that
Speaker 1: a little bit more. Yeah, Len, I can. Lenn's pulling
Speaker 1: out cool tones versus warmth Oh my god, no, But
Speaker 1: I was like, he's a genius.
Speaker 2: But okay, if we're using Christmas an example. He wanted
Speaker 2: to help wrap the presence, and I explained to him
Speaker 2: why he couldn't wrap the presents because he would do
Speaker 2: an awful job because he doesn't have the skill set yet.
Speaker 2: But then I explained to him and showed him the
Speaker 2: whole process, and then he repeated a lot of the
Speaker 2: things back to me and started placing the tape in
Speaker 2: the correct spots.
Speaker 1: Oh that's lovely. Yeah, he helped in the way that
Speaker 1: he could help exactly.
Speaker 2: I just taught him that he was unable to help
Speaker 2: me in other ways because he would do an awful job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true. I think of them.
Speaker 2: They're bad at things as well. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it doesn't shock me.
Speaker 2: He'll be like, look at this drawing, so outside the lines.
Speaker 1: But outside the lines. I didn't realize how much of
Speaker 1: like a control freak I am with like mess and
Speaker 1: like neat playing.
Speaker 2: Oh you bore, I know, I know.
Speaker 1: And it's not like I push that onto her, But
Speaker 1: I just watch her color and she's like, look at
Speaker 1: Mowana and she's taken a purple crayon and scribbled all
Speaker 1: over her.
Speaker 2: It doesn't upset me unless that's the page that I'm coloring.
Speaker 2: You can do whatever you want to your page, but
Speaker 2: it's when they want to color with you get your
Speaker 2: own page. I don't want your mess on my page,
Speaker 2: or when you're playing blocks with them, and then they
Speaker 2: try to like build a towel without the colors matching, and.
Speaker 1: What do you make them match the color?
Speaker 2: You can build your own tower with whatever colors you want.
Speaker 2: But my tower has matching colors, and my lego house
Speaker 2: makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's not a lot of them that makes sense
Speaker 1: of the same.
Speaker 2: I got in my control freak only with myself.
Speaker 1: A little bit. You were like fully paying me out,
Speaker 1: and then over here you're like siphoning the colors so
Speaker 1: that they can't have ugly towers that are.
Speaker 2: Built for raising a pastel tower. I don't want a
Speaker 2: bright orange brick in the.
Speaker 1: Middle cool times, warm terms, got it. I want to
Speaker 1: get back to the idea that your kid is a
Speaker 1: bully or a bad kid. We know this isn't true, right.
Speaker 2: Unless they're associated. If your child is pulling the legs
Speaker 2: off bugs outside.
Speaker 1: Yeah they're probably gonna be a serial killer. But I
Speaker 1: found a pretty informative piece on toddler bullying Weirdly on
Speaker 1: like the Huggies website. There wasn't a lot about toddler's
Speaker 1: being bullies because I don't think that they technically can be.
Speaker 2: And also I think that it's a bit of a
Speaker 2: non issue before they're at school.
Speaker 1: I mean it is, but I think parents are suffering
Speaker 1: with like the weight of it because think about how
Speaker 1: crazy toddlers are and if you've got an especially spirited kid, or.
Speaker 2: It can be a sign of neurodivergence because they don't have.
Speaker 1: Any ways of communicating.
Speaker 2: Communicating so they can bite here. Yeah, but yeah, you're right,
Speaker 2: it could be really hard for parents because it could
Speaker 2: exclude them, or if a child is removed from daycare
Speaker 2: and you can't afford in any.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you do?
Speaker 2: What do you do? I know, just for me on
Speaker 2: a bill, on a.
Speaker 1: Level, I feel really embarrassed. And it's like, I know
Speaker 1: I shouldn't feel embarrassed because I know when my friend's
Speaker 1: kids act out.
Speaker 2: I don't care. I don't give as long as they parent,
Speaker 2: that's the thing, right, as long as their parent.
Speaker 1: But I'll always send a message afterwards because I know
Speaker 1: how mortifying it is saying like, hey, everything's sweet, they're kids.
Speaker 1: But I know that even though people are telling you that,
Speaker 1: you're still thinking I'm a fucking terrible parent. On something
Speaker 1: like that. I just think, but you don't have a
Speaker 1: kid that does that. I'm telling you from experience.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, it's but when he has like if
Speaker 2: he's pushed or whatever his cousins, I just feel very
Speaker 2: disappointed in him. I'm like, don't. Yeah, that is not
Speaker 2: how we carry good.
Speaker 1: You're good at being like amazing.
Speaker 2: This is on you.
Speaker 1: You're a toddler who needs to learn.
Speaker 2: Like this is you, bud, because that's not how we
Speaker 2: treat people.
Speaker 1: No, which is good. No, but you really need separating it.
Speaker 2: You're giving me the right now.
Speaker 1: Don't don't turn money off. So this piece was written
Speaker 1: by Sally and McCormack. She's a Melbourne psych former teacher
Speaker 1: and she's a mother of four, so she's, oh, she's
Speaker 1: got to experience. She's got some experience. So in the
Speaker 1: piece it asks us question, is it reasonable to attribute
Speaker 1: bullying to a toddler? She says no. Developmentally, a toddler
Speaker 1: is very ego centric. So they don't play with other children.
Speaker 1: I think we see them as playing with other children,
Speaker 1: but they may play next to other children. They don't
Speaker 1: really understand the concept of sharing, which we know, and
Speaker 1: they expect their needs to be met immediately, So if
Speaker 1: they see a toy they want, they're going to grab it,
Speaker 1: regardless of where it is, even if it's in someone's hand.
Speaker 1: So this time of their lives is spent exploring and
Speaker 1: experimenting in the world, but they are not capable of
Speaker 1: seeing the situation from the perspective of So it's not
Speaker 1: bullying because there's actually no intent to harm the other
Speaker 1: person who's involved in the situation. But she did note
Speaker 1: that it is possible that if these toddlers are not
Speaker 1: directed through this phase appropriately, that the lesson they learn
Speaker 1: is that bullying is a successful method of getting their
Speaker 1: own way, And she did share some possible strategies to
Speaker 1: help deal with this learning phase, and I thought that
Speaker 1: was really interesting. So while we know that this is
Speaker 1: just them kind of not being able to regulate, regulate
Speaker 1: reason with their own behavior, they're just not like quite
Speaker 1: got enough empathy to understand it from the other person's
Speaker 1: point of view. It's all about them. They haven't yet
Speaker 1: realized that they aren't the only ones navigating the world.
Speaker 1: They think they are the main character of their lie.
Speaker 1: Oh they are, but if we don't.
Speaker 2: Actually guide guide them, they might be school yard bullies exactly.
Speaker 2: That's a whole different part.
Speaker 1: So I was like, whoa, Okay, thank god we're doing
Speaker 1: this episode so we don't have bullies on our hands.
Speaker 2: Lenny is very bossy, so he'll just come up to me.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's not that he'll push kids into doing something,
Speaker 2: but he tries to force his fun. Bailly, not play
Speaker 2: with me, Bailey, come in car, Bailly, do this or what.
Speaker 2: I'm like, Darlan, you've asked him. He hasn't responded. You
Speaker 2: cannot control the fun. But I was just thinking that
Speaker 2: out of my head, and then I was thinking about
Speaker 2: just saying to you that no, you can't color in
Speaker 2: like that all. And I'm like, oh, I wonder.
Speaker 4: Where he gets wondering it's a prom I know, tries
Speaker 4: to control the fun from the good example of bullying
Speaker 4: and young kids that I saw when I was like
Speaker 4: doing this research and this is like you're four and
Speaker 4: a half year olds with girls and then five year
Speaker 4: olds with boys.
Speaker 1: That's generally the timing.
Speaker 2: That it starts right. Something to watch out for exactly.
Speaker 1: We'll do another episode on that, don't you worry. We're
Speaker 1: getting closer to that age, so we're trying to prep ourselves.
Speaker 1: An example of that would be I don't want them
Speaker 1: to come to my birthday party. So that's the kind
Speaker 1: of stuff that we have to look out for as parents.
Speaker 1: So I think that's really interesting because someone who's like, well,
Speaker 1: you don't have to do what you don't want to do,
Speaker 1: everyone's fucking getting invited to his birthday party.
Speaker 2: And let me tell you, I can't exclude one person.
Speaker 1: That's cool, right, So I think that's a good example
Speaker 1: of kind of where it's.
Speaker 2: Well, it's gone too far if people are so you
Speaker 2: don't have to do what you don't want to do,
Speaker 2: that you don't invite one person. And even if that
Speaker 2: person they don't want to invite the miss because they're
Speaker 2: bling you, well you're just as bad.
Speaker 1: Then because you're excluding me, isn't it. There's been an
Speaker 1: argument recently in like parenting stuff it's like you shouldn't
Speaker 1: have to invite the whole class, and I'm.
Speaker 2: Like, oh, I know there's thirty kids in a class.
Speaker 1: Well where do you draw the line?
Speaker 2: Then I just don't do birthday parties with your school
Speaker 2: friends or just like invite your besties. Yeah, okay, don't
Speaker 2: invite half the class though, And then leave the other half.
Speaker 2: That's so mean.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I want to get through these strategies to
Speaker 1: deal with this learning phase as they're navigating these emotion
Speaker 1: So giving them a feelings vocabulary, which is kind of
Speaker 1: similar to what we were talking about before. Understanding that
Speaker 1: the behavior that they're acting out is due to frustration
Speaker 1: on the part of the toddler who does not have
Speaker 1: a way of expressing their feelings. So saying things like, hey,
Speaker 1: you're feeling angry right now because you can't play with
Speaker 1: this truck, So like validating their feelings, but also have
Speaker 1: you got that feelings book? It's like got a sense
Speaker 1: of love hearts that goes all the way back and
Speaker 1: it's like colored oh yes, yes, and it describes each feeling.
Speaker 1: So that's one that I'm trying to put into the
Speaker 1: rotation a lot more now because I know that they're
Speaker 1: in this phase of like naming understanding what their feelings are.
Speaker 1: Another one which I do a lot, distract the child.
Speaker 2: I do it with everything everything.
Speaker 1: Distraction is it's your number one tool and the kit
Speaker 1: let me tell you divert distract. Yeah, So basically just
Speaker 1: giving them a different toy if they're angry, about something.
Speaker 1: And I made a note here saying at this age,
Speaker 1: it's not a reward for poor behavior, but it's a
Speaker 1: way of avoiding or reinforcing an inappropriate display of anger
Speaker 1: or frustration. Because I think that's a really key distinction,
Speaker 1: Like a lot of us can feel like we'll just
Speaker 1: play with this one that you're just like pacifying them
Speaker 1: but distracting them. And yeah, you're just trying to move
Speaker 1: it along. And let's not get too hung up on
Speaker 1: this toy.
Speaker 2: It's just a different toy. It's not like you're like, here,
Speaker 2: let's go to the shops and you can choose a
Speaker 2: new toy because you're so upset that you can't play
Speaker 2: with that one. No, No, it's just hey, what about
Speaker 2: this one?
Speaker 1: Exactly. Love that we touched on this before remove the
Speaker 1: child from the situation. They actually said that time out
Speaker 1: can be an effective tool for cares of a toddler
Speaker 1: in serious situations, so that they can understand like the
Speaker 1: consequence of their behavior, so biting, pushing a kid that
Speaker 1: ended quite badly, like you know, anything that is quite
Speaker 1: a serious consequence. You can do it like that, And
Speaker 1: they say to do a minute for every year, like
Speaker 1: have how old they are, so lem would be three minutes.
Speaker 2: I've only ever done time out once and it was
Speaker 2: for one minute.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that was probably when he was like one, right,
Speaker 1: or two?
Speaker 2: I think two? Yeah.
Speaker 1: So there also may be times where the victim needs
Speaker 1: to be removed. So you know, if your kid is
Speaker 1: in the situation and it's just making it worse from
Speaker 1: the other side, get their kid out.
Speaker 2: That doesn't sound very fair.
Speaker 1: Well, it's if they're being seriously hurt or they're like
Speaker 1: really fearful. Taking them away for a short stint to
Speaker 1: make them feel safe is a good thing.
Speaker 2: But why should you have to take your kid away?
Speaker 2: If there's another kid bullying them.
Speaker 1: And their parent isn't present, then you.
Speaker 2: Arc up and start shouting, Oh, who's kidd is this?
Speaker 2: Get it out?
Speaker 1: Get them out. The next one is suggest alternative behavior,
Speaker 1: So when the child is starting to calm down, offer
Speaker 1: different ways for them to express their feelings. For example,
Speaker 1: tell mummy what you want, or gently hold my hand
Speaker 1: and take me over there, or no, it's mine. So
Speaker 1: like waiting for them to calm down before you kind
Speaker 1: of try to rationalize why or suggest something else like
Speaker 1: that's something I have to be so aware of like
Speaker 1: crua B to ten.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, done, come on, I'm not that bad,
Speaker 2: and they're like, fine'll.
Speaker 1: Just go over here, and she's like, I'm in the
Speaker 1: depths of my despair right now and you're trying to
Speaker 1: talk me off the cliff, Like I'm up here. Let
Speaker 1: me just like carry out, have it out. So she
Speaker 1: finishes by saying, just like, the main message is to
Speaker 1: recognize and remember that this is a normal developmental phase
Speaker 1: and that children go through this at varying degrees. So like,
Speaker 1: comparing our kids is never going to end well for anyone.
Speaker 1: Everyone's progressing at different stages, and that no toddler intends
Speaker 1: to bully another person. They are simply not capable of
Speaker 1: thinking that way. But we do need to address the
Speaker 1: behaviors because we want them to be able to learn
Speaker 1: appropriate social skills and more positive ways of meeting their
Speaker 1: own needs. So I thought that was like pretty good.
Speaker 1: It's stuff we know, right, But it's just like reinforcing
Speaker 1: reminding ourselves to give adequate kind of guidance when things
Speaker 1: are going a bit pair shaped, which is when it
Speaker 1: goes to emotion.
Speaker 2: All the time, when it comes to the kids playing together. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and also rare to have a group of kids playing
Speaker 2: really nicely together for an extended period of time. And
Speaker 2: you know what, if they were I'd probably be a
Speaker 2: little bits ined. I'd be like, are you all duds?
Speaker 2: Where are the personality guys?
Speaker 1: But I I will say, if you've been out with
Speaker 1: it group of girlfriends and their friends or guy friends, whatever,
Speaker 1: the parents that you're with and their kids been a
Speaker 1: bit rowdy, shoot them a message after the play date,
Speaker 1: just be like, hey, reassuring you.
Speaker 2: Don't you think that's just like signifying that you saw
Speaker 2: that their kid was being awful. Well, I think attendant
Speaker 2: doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty obvious. No, just to make sure,
Speaker 1: because I think that reassurance is like something you can
Speaker 1: do easily to remind them like, hey, oh they were
Speaker 1: really online today, weren't they. But like I just wanted
Speaker 1: to say, like you handled it perfectly. There's nothing more
Speaker 1: that you could have done in that situation. They're just
Speaker 1: kids that aren't great at expressing themselves and they just
Speaker 1: don't know what the fuck they're doing. But like you
Speaker 1: handled it perfectly, just reassuring them like how they handled
Speaker 1: the situation was Yeah, and it's actually all on those dummies.
Speaker 2: It's they're like, why are they so unusual?
Speaker 1: Why are they someone here?
Speaker 2: They're a bit silly, aren't they like undeveloped brain?
Speaker 1: Yeah, shame for them?
Speaker 2: All right, Well, this episode was produced by myself. Kelly
Speaker 2: mccaroan actually did nothing, but you know whatever, we just
Speaker 2: both claim every episode and the other person that did
Speaker 2: a lot was Kyra sels me over here, production by
Speaker 2: the delightful Madeline.
Speaker 1: Joanna, And we just wanted to say thanks for sticking around.
Speaker 1: Share the pot on your socials.
Speaker 2: Please do your friends.
Speaker 1: With bad kids. I'm sure they need to hear it.
Speaker 2: Don't say anything, just be like, stand to the met
Speaker 2: and go.
Speaker 1: Just drop them a link. Is my toddler a bully?
Speaker 2: Thought you might need this, thought you could relate.
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week. Shitters, by bye,