Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother and me a podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Hey there, Before we start today's episode, I.
Speaker 2: Just want to say that you are going to be
Speaker 2: hearing from some wonderful Muma Mea voices over the next
Speaker 2: few weeks as I work on another project. Hollywayen Wright,
Speaker 2: Claire Stevens, a Nama Brown, who is the executive producer
Speaker 2: of this show, are all going to be sitting in
Speaker 2: my chair for a few weeks and doing the same
Speaker 2: wonderful interviews that you know and love from no Filter.
Speaker 2: There are some great conversations coming your way about red
Speaker 2: and green flags in relationships, sex and porn, addiction, escaping
Speaker 2: from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, and more.
Speaker 3: You'll be hearing from me soon. Enjoy.
Speaker 1: You know, if we're susceptible, if we've got particular needs,
Speaker 1: you can bet that the narcissists will find those out
Speaker 1: and give us and tell us exactly you know why
Speaker 1: they understand us. But it won't be too long until
Speaker 1: there'll be something that happens where the devaluation starts.
Speaker 4: For Momma Mia this is no filter and I'm Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 4: You might know my voice from Mamma Mia out Loud
Speaker 4: or from mid but today I'm on no filter and
Speaker 4: I have some questions for you. Have you ever been
Speaker 4: love bonded by a new partner who just seems amazing,
Speaker 4: like you've never been appreciated like this before, only to
Speaker 4: have them go cold as soon as you've committed. Have
Speaker 4: you ever been in a relationship with someone who made
Speaker 4: you feel crazy because of their ability to seem so
Speaker 4: great in front of other people and yet quite a
Speaker 4: nightmare behind closed doors. What about a boss who steals
Speaker 4: your ideas, your thunder and your inspiration, or a parent
Speaker 4: who always made your life about them. Well, according to
Speaker 4: my guest today, chances are you've been involved with a narcissist. Now,
Speaker 4: narcissism is a word that gets thrown around a lot. Now,
Speaker 4: it's very much in the zeitgeist, and everybody's ex seems
Speaker 4: to have been a narcissist. But what really is one?
Speaker 4: How do we understand it? What are the red flags?
Speaker 4: What do you do if you realize you're in a
Speaker 4: relationship with a narcissist? And can a narcissist change. Margie
Speaker 4: Boden is a counselor and a coach, and importantly she
Speaker 4: is a narcissism expert who has all the answers and
Speaker 4: quite an amazing story. Let's jump in with Margie. Narcissist
Speaker 4: is a word that feels like it's sort of thrown
Speaker 4: around a great deal at the moment in particular, and
Speaker 4: we're going to get into some of the different types
Speaker 4: of narcissists soon, but broadly, how do you know if
Speaker 4: somebody in your life or the person you're in a
Speaker 4: relationship with might be a narcissist.
Speaker 1: The simple answer is, for so many of us, we don't.
Speaker 1: We simply don't know. And the impact that it does
Speaker 1: have on those people, you know, survivors who are living
Speaker 1: with someone with narcissistic personality styles or traits or patterns,
Speaker 1: is that they start to suffer. You know, it's in
Speaker 1: the DSM five, But you know, the narcissist doesn't really suffer.
Speaker 1: It's the person usually that they're living with. So if
Speaker 1: it's the child, if it's you know, the partner and
Speaker 1: the kids. In the workplace, it's those who work for
Speaker 1: the narcissists. So that's probably the most distressing thing that
Speaker 1: for so many people right now, I know, even you know,
Speaker 1: via Instagram, I've got people saying, you know, they may
Speaker 1: have been desperately unhappy in a relationship for thirty forty years.
Speaker 1: But I'm not sure if there are no narcissist, is
Speaker 1: if what are the signs are you experiencing? And so
Speaker 1: you know, they might say, well, I'm desperately lonely, and
Speaker 1: then it's the behaviors. So I guess it's probably helpful
Speaker 1: to sort of look at the types of behaviors that
Speaker 1: you might be experiencing again and again, and then if
Speaker 1: I tie them into their traits, it.
Speaker 4: Is actually a recognized personality disorder correct narcissism. Yes, But then,
Speaker 4: as you also expressed, there are traits and behaviors that
Speaker 4: fall under the umbrella of narcissism too. And I guess,
Speaker 4: so what you're sort of saying is it's very hard
Speaker 4: to know whether or not your partner or somebody in
Speaker 4: your life is an actual clinical narcissist, but there are
Speaker 4: behaviors here that are making affecting your life in a
Speaker 4: negative way.
Speaker 3: That give you a good clue. I guess is that accurate?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I mean, you know, that the number of narcissists
Speaker 1: that are actually diagnosed, obviously are very few because narcissists
Speaker 1: don't tend to front up to therapists and say, can
Speaker 1: you please help me? I've got a problem. I'm destroying
Speaker 1: people's lives.
Speaker 3: Because that's not how they see it.
Speaker 1: Correct, that's that correct. So that's actually part of you know,
Speaker 1: the pattern of personality traits, you know, which include probably
Speaker 1: number one is that lack of empathy. That they just
Speaker 1: have no empathy. And if you're living with that, you go,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't understand, how could you say that?
Speaker 1: How could you do that? Why would you do that
Speaker 1: to me? Don't you care? And it's no. So what
Speaker 1: you often hear people describe the narcissist, You know, there's
Speaker 1: selfish or plenty of people are selfish, so what, that's
Speaker 1: not a big deal. So they're a bit selfish, But
Speaker 1: you know, for the narcissist, it's an absolute lack of empathy, grandiosity,
Speaker 1: you know that I am really more able, more capable
Speaker 1: than really I am. Extremely they're entitled. You know me first,
Speaker 1: why wouldn't I be able to do that? Because you
Speaker 1: know I'm entitled to do that. They're looking for excessive
Speaker 1: validation and admiration. I think everybody envies them. They're pathologically selfish,
Speaker 1: they're pathological liars, they have sensitive they're sort of the
Speaker 1: things that you'll see, I guess more in the DSM five.
Speaker 1: But then the things that I tend to work with
Speaker 1: clients is how's it showing up for you? Yes?
Speaker 4: Because to be honest, Margie, when you just run through
Speaker 4: that list of people, two things came into my mind.
Speaker 4: One that sounds like a lot of alpha males that
Speaker 4: I have come into contact with, yes, And two they
Speaker 4: sound awful. Of course, so if you knew that somebody was,
Speaker 4: if you know, if in the early stages of meeting
Speaker 4: somebody with those traits, you would imagine that you might
Speaker 4: run a mile. But narcissists, am I correct, can be
Speaker 4: very charming, very persuasive, very good at love bombing.
Speaker 1: Look they've actually got you know, like I know, Rominy
Speaker 1: de Vassala says, you know the three seas of Nazism.
Speaker 1: There's charm, charisma, and confidence. Right when you meet them,
Speaker 1: you know they're charming, they're charismatic, and their master manipulators.
Speaker 1: So they go through an abuse cycle and you know
Speaker 1: the first part of that cycle is you know, that
Speaker 1: that love bombing where you'll be dazzled by this knighting
Speaker 1: shining armor who says, you know, you are not like
Speaker 1: all the other women. You are the love of my life.
Speaker 1: And they actually it doesn't matter where in the world
Speaker 1: that you are. They're using the same types of things.
Speaker 1: You know, like I'll hear all the time from around
Speaker 1: the world, like I'll put something up and there'll be
Speaker 1: women and men all around the world say, I can't
Speaker 1: believe that. You know how my partner, that's how they speak.
Speaker 1: How do they all use the same language. You will
Speaker 1: absolutely wooed. They learn as much as they can about you.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you like baking chocolate fudge, what
Speaker 1: do you know? So they right, So you know, you
Speaker 1: feel this incredible connection to this person who you think,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like this is extraordinary.
Speaker 4: And women are probably and I mean I know that
Speaker 4: this isn't a gender specific disorder.
Speaker 3: I know they are female narcissists.
Speaker 4: But women are probably particularly susceptible to this early stage
Speaker 4: love bombing because we've kind of been sold a story
Speaker 4: that that's what falling in love is, right, fireworks, obsession,
Speaker 4: They get you in every way, big grandiose gestures of
Speaker 4: their commitment. Like we've kind of been convinced by all
Speaker 4: our fairy tales, whether they're actual fairy tales or romantic
Speaker 4: comedies or whatever, that that's what loves like. And it
Speaker 4: sounds like narcissists are very good performing that role.
Speaker 1: Ah, they're completely formative, right, They're very very performative. So
Speaker 1: you will get this incredible performance, sexual performance. They will
Speaker 1: wow this this person is who However, you know, all
Speaker 1: of this stops. You can't keep on. You know that's
Speaker 1: not authentically who they are, so it stops, which then
Speaker 1: leads to the next stage of devaluation. It's ever so soft,
Speaker 1: but you're you've already bought into the dream. You've been
Speaker 1: told I love you, you are my soul mate and
Speaker 1: we will be together forever. Now you know who doesn't
Speaker 1: like you're just an ordinary person who doesn't believe that.
Speaker 1: Why would someone lie to me and tell me that
Speaker 1: if they tell me that, if they didn't mean it.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, we bring to the story
Speaker 1: our own vulnerabilities, if we're susceptible, if we've got particular needs.
Speaker 1: You can bet that the no narcissist too will find
Speaker 1: those out and give us and tell us exactly you
Speaker 1: know why they understand us. But it won't be too
Speaker 1: long until there will be something that happens where the
Speaker 1: devaluation starts, because they're always wanting to study and know
Speaker 1: what can I do to you? How much will you take?
Speaker 1: You've got the initial love bombing where you're prepared to forgive,
Speaker 1: and of course you talk to survivors and they've got
Speaker 1: you know, their tolerant, their conscientious, they're forgiving, they're very capable,
Speaker 1: all of those things, which the ideal for someone who's
Speaker 1: an arcissist. They don't choose accidentally.
Speaker 4: So what you're saying is someone who falls under this
Speaker 4: umbrella of narcissm is sort.
Speaker 3: Of seeking out.
Speaker 4: A partner or people in their life that they can
Speaker 4: manipulate and they know what they're I mean, well, we
Speaker 4: might not be inside their heads. We don't know if
Speaker 4: they know what they're doing. But the playbook, it was
Speaker 4: really interesting what you said before for about the playbook
Speaker 4: seems to be the same across cultures, across geographical lines.
Speaker 4: So there are clear phases to this. The love bombing
Speaker 4: that sets up your connection to them, so you are.
Speaker 1: To trust that safety this person, ye.
Speaker 4: And then they'll start letting you down and you're saying,
Speaker 4: that's because they want to test you in a way.
Speaker 4: Is a narcissist after something from you? Like, I mean,
Speaker 4: I assume that this is obviously vrees it, Like are
Speaker 4: they trying to gam you?
Speaker 3: Or is this just how they operate?
Speaker 1: So a narcissist wants supply, we call it supply, and
Speaker 1: depending on who they are, they want different supplies. So
Speaker 1: it could be depending on what stage they're at, what
Speaker 1: age they're at, you know that they want different things.
Speaker 1: So you know, in the early stages they might want
Speaker 1: a partner who gives them a lot of validation and attention.
Speaker 1: But whatever stage they're at, a narcissists must have control.
Speaker 1: They always have to control you. So one of the
Speaker 1: things that every survivor thinks, you know, when you're in
Speaker 1: a relationship and you desperately want to get out, one
Speaker 1: of the things that you think about is, oh, what
Speaker 1: if they're What if I've been with this person for ten, fifteen,
Speaker 1: twenty thirty years? What if I leave them and suddenly
Speaker 1: they repartner and they're really nice after all of this
Speaker 1: work they go on and they're really nice to the
Speaker 1: next person. They won't be because they don't change. They
Speaker 1: will use exactly the same cycle, the abuse cycle. So
Speaker 1: they start off and they love bombing and the devaluation.
Speaker 1: So you're destabilized now and you're much easier to manipulate,
Speaker 1: so you're a bit oh, I guess that was okay.
Speaker 1: And then in between this there's that they come back
Speaker 1: into to do a little bit of love bombing. So
Speaker 1: the relationship ship is all about reward and punishment, a
Speaker 1: lot of punishment before you not like you don't know
Speaker 1: that all of this is happening, of course, but you
Speaker 1: know there's a lot of punishment to keep you under
Speaker 1: their control, and there's a bit of reward in there also,
Speaker 1: so we keep looking for the reward because it will
Speaker 1: come because they do love me. They don't mean to
Speaker 1: do this, and so you know, there's there's the love bombing,
Speaker 1: there's the devaluation, and then they'll discard you. I'll find,
Speaker 1: you know, a shinier toy, a better toy. There's something
Speaker 1: you know they might find. Look, I'd prefer to be,
Speaker 1: you know, watching soccer. I'd prefer to go cut I
Speaker 1: prefer to watch your porn. But I'm going to keep
Speaker 1: you around because your good supply. You know, you look,
Speaker 1: you look after the kids. You actually you're actually the
Speaker 1: bread winner too. I get to do what I like,
Speaker 1: I get to behave however I like, and you just
Speaker 1: keep everything ticking along to the outside world, which is
Speaker 1: very important to the narcissist. Things are looking okay, look
Speaker 1: at them, they've got you know, the family, everything's chugging along.
Speaker 1: They're great. Hello, neighbors, Hello, everybody you know. But this
Speaker 1: behavior happens behind closed doors.
Speaker 4: A narcissists very good at masking, like as in pretending
Speaker 4: that they care about your sick mom or pretending that
Speaker 4: they care or is it only if there's something in
Speaker 4: it for them.
Speaker 1: There always has to be something in it for them.
Speaker 1: So you know, if they're nice to the neighbors, and
Speaker 1: most of them are, regardless of whether you need anything done,
Speaker 1: it's because the neighbors validate them and go, he's a
Speaker 1: or shit's great. Great people. Yeah, that's important that other
Speaker 1: people think they're great.
Speaker 4: So one of the things that's interesting about this, and
Speaker 4: I know how you came to this work, is that
Speaker 4: you yourself were in a relationship with a narcissist for a
Speaker 4: long time. What your work is now is often helping
Speaker 4: people identify and get out of those relationships and rebuild
Speaker 4: themselves afterwards.
Speaker 3: Am I correct in saying yes?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 4: Is there an early exit opportunity?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 4: Are you I know what you were saying that it's
Speaker 4: difficult to sort of have a sort of broad stroke.
Speaker 4: These are the signs. But if you're dating a narcissist,
Speaker 4: if you haven't got so far in now that you're
Speaker 4: you're thinking about things like how what do we do
Speaker 4: about the children? What do we do about money? Is
Speaker 4: there you know, is there a kind of warning sign
Speaker 4: that you could that would help an early exit.
Speaker 1: That's a really good question, but it's incredibly complex because
Speaker 1: you're actually in the abuse cycle already and you're experiencing
Speaker 1: intermittent reinforcement, which is the most powerful force for you know,
Speaker 1: it's the reason why someone is sitting in the casino
Speaker 1: and it's thirty five degrees outside and it's beautiful, and
Speaker 1: they're sitting in the dark casino and they've just blown
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars and you say to them, what are
Speaker 1: you doing? You know, you're losing money in here? It's beautiful.
Speaker 1: I don't know what are you doing? And that they'll say,
Speaker 1: last year I won. And that's intermittent reinforcement. You know
Speaker 1: when when when we get hot, when it's high, God,
Speaker 1: it's good. So we've got to keep going. You know,
Speaker 1: when you're in that relationship, you just you know, I
Speaker 1: know that they love me. You know, we live in hope.
Speaker 1: Hope is very powerful, and often when you are in that,
Speaker 1: in that early stage, you will have friends, You will
Speaker 1: have people saying, what are you doing? Can't you see
Speaker 1: that they're no good?
Speaker 5: But you're now in an abuse cycle, and the narcissist
Speaker 5: is very clever, very good at manipulating. So one of
Speaker 5: the things that they will do is to start to
Speaker 5: slowly isolate you from your support networks.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you've got a parent or a
Speaker 1: friend who says I don't like them, I can see
Speaker 1: something's not right. The narcissist will say, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: let's sue your friend. Well, she tried to you know,
Speaker 1: she likes me, she tried to crack onto me. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't trust her or your mother. Have you noticed her.
Speaker 1: She's always interfering. She doesn't care about you. So all
Speaker 1: the time being brainwashed and controlled and manipulated and who
Speaker 1: expects to talk into that.
Speaker 4: After this shortbreak, I asked Margie more about the relationship
Speaker 4: between narcissism and abuse and how narcissists react when they
Speaker 4: realize that you're leaving them stay with us?
Speaker 3: Are abuses?
Speaker 4: All narcissists are narcissists, all abuses? Are these two things
Speaker 4: separate or interwoven?
Speaker 1: Look, I think you can have someone who's who's toxic
Speaker 1: and you know, aggressive, but that's different to someone who's narcissistic,
Speaker 1: who's who's who's very very systematic, and the abuse, the
Speaker 1: psychological abuse that goes on. You know, the narcissist may
Speaker 1: may never ever raise their voice, they might never hit you,
Speaker 1: but day in day out, they will be undermining. They'll
Speaker 1: be punishing you, They'll be withdrawing, they'll be giving you
Speaker 1: the silent treatment. They'll be saying you know like that.
Speaker 1: They'll find out what what was your childhood vulnerability and saying, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: well you were always a bit like that, won't you.
Speaker 1: So you lose your own agency, your capacity.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, So it must be so hard to unpick yourself
Speaker 4: from this relationship. So, either in your own experience or
Speaker 4: in the experience of lots of people who you have
Speaker 4: helped through your work. Now, what might be the kind
Speaker 4: of I guess final story is the wrong word, but
Speaker 4: what might be the fun the thing that makes somebody go,
Speaker 4: I have to get out of here, Like what is
Speaker 4: that moment?
Speaker 1: Like that's interesting because I've had a lot of people
Speaker 1: on Instagram message me and ask me exactly that you know, well,
Speaker 1: you've done it, so what was it? When will I know?
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, you get to a point
Speaker 1: where it's there's an acceptance that I'm I'm going under,
Speaker 1: I'm getting sick, and it's unbearable. This is unbearable, Like
Speaker 1: that's how bad it is.
Speaker 4: I'm going under, and that there may be this time
Speaker 4: when they come back with their reinforcement and their you know,
Speaker 4: it's too many times through the cycle, and you don't
Speaker 4: think you can go through it anymore.
Speaker 1: You're forgiven, you've lived in hope, you've waited, and you
Speaker 1: start to go, well, you know, there's no change because
Speaker 1: there's always the words the narcissists, And this is the
Speaker 1: hard part is separating because they future fake and they
Speaker 1: promise I will change, I'll do this, I'll do that,
Speaker 1: and once again you look through your lens and you go, well,
Speaker 1: they said that they're going to do that. That's reasonable,
Speaker 1: But you're not dealing with a reasonable person. You're dealing
Speaker 1: with someone with these personality traits.
Speaker 4: So how does a narcissist behave once they realize that
Speaker 4: maybe you are leaving? How do they behave when they
Speaker 4: are threatened in that way?
Speaker 1: So there's a number of different ways they will behave.
Speaker 1: Narcissists saying in the workplace once they know you know,
Speaker 1: so watch out because they're coming for you because no
Speaker 1: one is allowed to know who they are.
Speaker 4: So you mean when you say, when they know, you know,
Speaker 4: whether that's in the workplace or in a relationship, if
Speaker 4: you call them out on it, or if just that
Speaker 4: or rather if their magic stops working on you.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so it's not so much you know in
Speaker 1: the workplace. I've certainly experienced, you know, narcissists in the workplace,
Speaker 1: and you know, when they take credit for your work
Speaker 1: the fortieth time and they lie and you know, they
Speaker 1: start doing illegal things and you just think, look, this
Speaker 1: is this is not okay. I'm actually going to push
Speaker 1: back on this. I'm not going to agree to this.
Speaker 1: This is not okay. So when you don't give them
Speaker 1: what they want, they're going to tighten the screws. They're
Speaker 1: going to make you like they'll punish you like narcissists punish.
Speaker 1: So do what I want or I punish you. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're in the workplace, I'll demote you, I'll sack you,
Speaker 1: i will start to smear your name. I'll tell everybody
Speaker 1: things that aren't true because I'm entitled to do that.
Speaker 4: This character portrait that we're painting is so depressing because
Speaker 4: it sounds like their master manipulators and they're likely to win.
Speaker 4: How do you win against the narcissists in that situation?
Speaker 1: Look, I think, how do you win against the narcissists?
Speaker 1: Like in the workplace, going up against the narcissist, it's
Speaker 1: a long game, right, There's a very good chance, there's
Speaker 1: a ninety nine percent chance that you know, in the
Speaker 1: short term, you will lose because you are not dishonest,
Speaker 1: you're not a pathological lie. You won't sleep with anybody
Speaker 1: to cover it like no, but they will. They'll do
Speaker 1: whatever they need to to bring you down. So how
Speaker 1: do you win? I know that it's easy to say this,
Speaker 1: but you get away from them, you leave, you leave.
Speaker 1: I mean I've watched people stay in the workplace and
Speaker 1: try and fight them, and their lives have crumbled because
Speaker 1: you just don't go up against a narcissist. Not in
Speaker 1: a short term. You're going to lose. Now you might
Speaker 1: hear five years down the track, Oh yeah, that was
Speaker 1: they finally found out about you know so and so,
Speaker 1: and they've been asked to leave. But how do you
Speaker 1: win against someone who's a master manipulator?
Speaker 3: And you can't play them because although they're susceptible to
Speaker 3: flattery and so on there, it sounds like they have
Speaker 3: no limits and you do as you were just saying, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: In a situation you said, holy you can't play them.
Speaker 1: So you could stay and play them and you know,
Speaker 1: compliment them and play up to them. And how long
Speaker 1: can you do that because they're very needy and that
Speaker 1: constant validation. I mean, you wouldn't get your work done,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't do anything else. You would be feeding the narcissist.
Speaker 1: So that situation's not really sustainable either.
Speaker 4: So back to a relationship situation. You've decided that you
Speaker 4: are getting out of this relationationship. You've been through the
Speaker 4: cycle so many times, as you say, you're now in
Speaker 4: a psychological place that is untenable. You may have to
Speaker 4: co parent with this person. You may have to have
Speaker 4: them and continue to have them in your life in
Speaker 4: some way. You may need to negotiate a financial settlement
Speaker 4: with them.
Speaker 3: You may need to do all kinds of things. And
Speaker 3: whether from your experience or experience the people if you've
Speaker 3: worked with, what does that survival path look like?
Speaker 1: I'd be lying if I said any of it was easy.
Speaker 1: You know, if they were difficult in the relationship, you
Speaker 1: can bet that they're going to be difficult awful in divorce.
Speaker 1: You know, they will tell you don't worry, you know,
Speaker 1: fifty fifty, or don't worry, I get lawyers involved, don't worry.
Speaker 1: But remember they're pathological liars. And so often when people
Speaker 1: step into the divorce, they'll say, look, he has you know,
Speaker 1: she has told me that they'll be fair, and I
Speaker 1: just think it's it's not so they'res and sure enough
Speaker 1: I'll come back and you know, you'll often hear people say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: well what you said, they did that.
Speaker 3: So because they're predictable, the behavior is predictable, as you
Speaker 3: said before.
Speaker 1: Absolutely predictable. So you ask, what's what's the best way
Speaker 1: to survive this? If you become or if you work
Speaker 1: with someone who knows every step that the narcissists, that
Speaker 1: you know exactly what they're going to do, and you
Speaker 1: know exactly how you need to respond the narcissists. You know,
Speaker 1: if you pull the pin on the relationship and you've
Speaker 1: got children, especially young children, and you go enough, I'm
Speaker 1: done divorce and it wasn't the narcissist's idea, then they're
Speaker 1: going to need to punish you. You know, I've had
Speaker 1: clients say that. You know, they've even said to them,
Speaker 1: I'll get back you for this forever. So they're going
Speaker 1: to want to punish you. Now, if they can't get
Speaker 1: to you, they will punish you through the kids. So
Speaker 1: the kids become pawns in their game of getting to you.
Speaker 1: So how do you manage this? So knowing what you're
Speaker 1: dealing with and knowing that every move that the narcissist
Speaker 1: makes is about control. So when they contact you and
Speaker 1: they you know, they send the message, this is what
Speaker 1: I'm going to do. You don't respond, or you don't react,
Speaker 1: they want to see I've just got to it. I've
Speaker 1: just she's going to hate this one.
Speaker 4: So it sounds very much like obviously this is complex,
Speaker 4: high stake stuff. So if you do believe that that's
Speaker 4: what you're doing with you absolutely need help to do that, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, I get millions of messages how do I
Speaker 1: do this? And I think, well, I actually didn't do
Speaker 1: it on my own. I've got life you probably need.
Speaker 1: This is a very complex.
Speaker 4: It's you know, it's abuse of absolutely.
Speaker 1: You know, it's really hard to do this. You know,
Speaker 1: as I said, you have no agency, You've lost your
Speaker 1: self trust, you know, your self esteem. You're in a
Speaker 1: really bad place. So reach out and get someone to
Speaker 1: help you, someone who understands those narcissistic personality traits.
Speaker 4: I have seen you say though, to be you know,
Speaker 4: have an optimistic tone here, that it is possible, of course,
Speaker 4: to extricate yourself from a relationship like this, that there is,
Speaker 4: there is and can be freedom and happiness on the
Speaker 4: other side. Is it really important for you that people
Speaker 4: hear that message, because you know, as you've said, in
Speaker 4: a lot of what we've discussed today, it's clear how
Speaker 4: damaging to your psyche and your self worth and your
Speaker 4: self esteem a relationship like This.
Speaker 3: Can be.
Speaker 4: Important for people to hear that they can help save themselves.
Speaker 1: I guess when you do lose your agency and you don't,
Speaker 1: you don't know who you are anymore. And it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter how well educated you are or where you live
Speaker 1: or what your life looks like. You are living day
Speaker 1: to day a nightmare and your hollow. You don't know
Speaker 1: who you are. And from that place, you know, I
Speaker 1: wish I wish someone had come to me and said,
Speaker 1: do you know what, in five years down the track,
Speaker 1: you can have another life. You can write another chap
Speaker 1: that you can you can have all of those things,
Speaker 1: things that are not yours at the moment. And I
Speaker 1: had someone the other day so to me, Oh, look,
Speaker 1: I follow lots of people on Instagram that talk about Nazism,
Speaker 1: but you're one of the few people that actually say
Speaker 1: you can. There is a happy ending you can have.
Speaker 4: That you know at the beginning when I said to you,
Speaker 4: it sounds like narcissist is a word that's used a lot. Now,
Speaker 4: what I'm getting very much from you that's so interesting
Speaker 4: is that it is really important to identify this behavior
Speaker 4: because if you're in a relationship with a person like that,
Speaker 4: you're it's a serious thing and you need to be
Speaker 4: able to identify it so you know how to get
Speaker 4: out of it. And it's not a case of you're overreacting,
Speaker 4: you're exaggerating, you're making because I'm sure that's probably what
Speaker 4: you're being told by the narcissist, right.
Speaker 1: So absolutely, it's absolutely.
Speaker 4: Your kind of work. And the fact that people are
Speaker 4: becoming more aware of this trait means it's validating for
Speaker 4: the people in these relationships to understand that what they're
Speaker 4: up against is significant.
Speaker 1: It doesn't sink in, but I reckon I get probably
Speaker 1: woh no, less than ten messages every week from people
Speaker 1: around the world saying thank you you have saved my life,
Speaker 1: and I go, what, Well, it doesn't, you know, Like,
Speaker 1: it doesn't really sink in, But I just think that's just,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that's so healing for me, Like, wow, wow,
Speaker 1: that's so cool.
Speaker 4: After this short break, I asked Margie the million dollar question,
Speaker 4: Can narcissists change? And are they born or made?
Speaker 3: Stay with us? Can narcissists change?
Speaker 4: You said at the beginning of our conversation that narcissists
Speaker 4: don't know their narcissists or do I mean I don't
Speaker 4: know if that's true.
Speaker 1: But they know their behaviors absolutely, And how do we
Speaker 1: know that? Well, you know, what's your narcissists belittle you
Speaker 1: and ignore you for two weeks because you asked them
Speaker 1: or told them that they came home too late or
Speaker 1: drank too much, and they've ignored you for two weeks
Speaker 1: and they walk out the front door and say, hey, Jerry,
Speaker 1: how are your mate? You think they know they their behavior,
Speaker 1: this bad behavior, this abusive behavior, that's what you get.
Speaker 1: But to everybody else, that's what they get. They know,
Speaker 1: you know, do they identify as being narcissists? Of course not,
Speaker 1: of course not. They don't self reflect. It's why they
Speaker 1: don't end up in therapy. Can they change, No, they
Speaker 1: can't change. Can they modify their behavior? Yes, they can learn,
Speaker 1: slow down, be mindful when you say that, that's really
Speaker 1: deeply hurtful. So so you know how many of them do?
Speaker 1: Not many?
Speaker 3: Because if you're entirely self focused, why would you change?
Speaker 3: What kind of parents do narcissists make.
Speaker 1: I like to say that narcissists they don't have the
Speaker 1: you know, they're not built for the heavy lifting of parenting.
Speaker 1: So you know, they don't have empathy. So you know,
Speaker 1: when a child is suffering, what like come on top,
Speaker 1: mend tough and up whatever, they're often not present. There's
Speaker 1: better things to be doing other than you know, like
Speaker 1: there's a computer game, or there's some pulling to watch
Speaker 1: on my phone, or there's maybe I'll be drinking. There's
Speaker 1: there's you know, like kids, kids don't really what are
Speaker 1: they giving kids that they do? Often you know, there's
Speaker 1: there's a lot of literature about they'll have one child
Speaker 1: that is in their image, the golden child that that
Speaker 1: they reward and put a lot of time into and
Speaker 1: focus on and put a lot of pressure on you
Speaker 1: to so they can live vicariously through that child. But
Speaker 1: if you've got narcissistic parents that they can be cruel,
Speaker 1: that they don't nurture you. You know, they're not able
Speaker 1: to to give you what you need. You know, they'll
Speaker 1: let you down. They're not going to communicate, as I said,
Speaker 1: they're not they're not empathic.
Speaker 3: M hm.
Speaker 1: You just you just oh, there's yeah, what am I
Speaker 1: going to get out of your kids? But watch them
Speaker 1: change when there's a divorce and the kids become the
Speaker 1: you know, the other parents really really cares deeply about
Speaker 1: you know, they've they've suffered all of this abuse and
Speaker 1: the last thing they want to do is to let
Speaker 1: the narcissistic parent get their hands on the kids, because
Speaker 1: the kids are not that they're not going to be
Speaker 1: overly safe.
Speaker 4: Do you, in the work that you do with people,
Speaker 4: do you advise them to And again, I know this
Speaker 4: is high stakes, complicated stuff, but broadly, are you going
Speaker 4: to get much traction when you if you say to
Speaker 4: the people, the people who are helping you with your
Speaker 4: divorce or who are dealing with the custody settlement, my
Speaker 4: partner is a narcissist. He like, do you think there's
Speaker 4: an understanding enough there that that will help?
Speaker 3: Like if you can.
Speaker 1: No, In actual fact, I would advise them not to,
Speaker 1: especially in the legal world, you know, and if you're
Speaker 1: female and you come in that there's a certain danger
Speaker 1: in you know, because they're asked to say, oh, look,
Speaker 1: she's probably told you I'm a narcissist. You know, she's
Speaker 1: a lunatic. Anyway, No, she's not qualified, but that's dangerous.
Speaker 1: But what you can do, and you always must keep
Speaker 1: meticulous documentation because they're like, I didn't say that, I
Speaker 1: didn't do that. Yes she did, I've got the text.
Speaker 1: Yes she did, I've got the records, I've got the
Speaker 1: bank statement. So you have to and it's exhausting. You
Speaker 1: have to keep meticulous records. And when you aren't describing
Speaker 1: their behavior, you know, in the legal world, you describe
Speaker 1: the behavior, you don't then say, you know this is narcissistic.
Speaker 3: No, a narcissist born or made.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probably the biggest question that everybody wants to know.
Speaker 1: And there's the latest theory is that it's you know,
Speaker 1: roughly sort of eighty twenty. Eighty percent is nurture and
Speaker 1: twenty percent is the personality that you're born with, and
Speaker 1: a lot of it is parenting, whether you're you know,
Speaker 1: over the grandiose narcissist who is witnesses and watches parents
Speaker 1: be entitled and treat people without empathy, and the expectation
Speaker 1: on that child is that they will perform for the
Speaker 1: parent and do an excel and you know, an extension
Speaker 1: of the parent. But the vulnerable or covert narcissist that
Speaker 1: the parenting style lacks nurturing and lacks those types of things,
Speaker 1: you know, and if empathy is taught, then they're not
Speaker 1: taught and not nurtured. They're not taught to the empathy.
Speaker 4: So if a parent is thinking I don't want to
Speaker 4: raise a narcissist, I mean to the long list of things.
Speaker 3: That parents worry about.
Speaker 4: Like, if you're thinking I don't want to raise a narcissist,
Speaker 4: it's probable that you're not going to if you're thinking
Speaker 4: mindfully about it and you're showing empathy and care, and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, empathy is probably the number one trait that you
Speaker 1: would want to be instilling in your children. And I
Speaker 1: know that for parents who are parallel because you don't
Speaker 1: really co parent with a narcissist because they're antagonistic and
Speaker 1: it's high conflict. So you know you've got a parallel parent.
Speaker 1: You know, they often say, you know, how can I
Speaker 1: try and help my child? I know what they're going
Speaker 1: to every second weekend. And I said, look, you have
Speaker 1: everything that a narcissist doesn't have. You've got patience, you've
Speaker 1: got time, you communicate, you're empathic, you won't let them down.
Speaker 1: You know, you are consistent. You've already got so many
Speaker 1: things to give your child. Sooner or later, kids are
Speaker 1: going to see being let down again. Oh, like the
Speaker 1: narcissist does stuff up.
Speaker 4: I said at the beginning of this that you're one
Speaker 4: of your descriptions of narcists sounded like a lot of
Speaker 4: alpha males.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 3: Is narcissism more prevalent in men than women?
Speaker 1: It is?
Speaker 3: How much like how there are female narcissists.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I've worked with clients who have got, you know,
Speaker 1: the female narcissists that they're trying to desperately, you know,
Speaker 1: the kids are being destroyed. And I've seen you know, narcissists,
Speaker 1: female narcissists. You know, in the workplace. Female narcissists in
Speaker 1: the workplace often use their sexuality and charm.
Speaker 3: They use their chart in a different way.
Speaker 4: You said at the beginning, the three c's charm, charisma, confidence.
Speaker 4: The female narcissists might use those in slightly different ways.
Speaker 3: Yes, I see, you just might.
Speaker 4: What's the best way to spot a narcissist at work, Margie.
Speaker 1: Wow ah gee, it's really easy when you know you
Speaker 1: know what you're looking at. But they because I've just
Speaker 1: had another situation where another narcissist has stepped into another
Speaker 1: workplace and done exactly what they did in the prior workplace,
Speaker 1: and absolutely blown it apart. You know, they're pathological liars.
Speaker 1: They lie, Oh my god, do they lie. They big
Speaker 1: note themselves, they steer your ideas. They're bullies.
Speaker 3: They sound like the worst bosses.
Speaker 1: Well, the mental health it's a very serious, very serious concern.
Speaker 1: People get very sick. And if you can't leave, like
Speaker 1: you can't leave the workplace, it's you know, it's unimaginable,
Speaker 1: it's unbearable. They smear your name that narcissists love to get,
Speaker 1: whether it's your partner, whether it's in the workplace, you know,
Speaker 1: whether they get in first. Even most narcissistic parents, whether
Speaker 1: you realize it or not, the narcissist is smearing your
Speaker 1: name to the kids from a young age. Oh look
Speaker 1: at silly old mummy. She's never been any good at that.
Speaker 1: Oh isn't she crazy or not that like? And you
Speaker 1: don't even realize it's so subtle.
Speaker 4: That's so interesting, Margie, if you could talk to the
Speaker 4: version of yourself that was in that relationship for such
Speaker 4: a long time, knowing all that you know now you know,
Speaker 4: you've got so many people following you who engage with
Speaker 4: your education and your work because you're clearly, very clear
Speaker 4: eyed about this, Now, what would you tell her? And
Speaker 4: that's it situation.
Speaker 1: Look something that's that's impossible. It's impossible given the manipulation
Speaker 1: and the you know, the trauma bond that you're in.
Speaker 1: But every single person that I speak to knows that
Speaker 1: the relationship is it's not right. You know that. But
Speaker 1: because you're in a trauma bond, you can't leave.
Speaker 3: So what's a trauma bond?
Speaker 1: I talked about the abuse cycle? So when the abuse cycle,
Speaker 1: you know, you're groomed, so you know, first of all,
Speaker 1: you love bond, and then you you know, how much
Speaker 1: can you take. I'm going to destabilize you little by
Speaker 1: little by little, so you know you're really not sure
Speaker 1: what's right and what which side up, which side down?
Speaker 1: And then I'm going to discard you, and you're going
Speaker 1: to be desperately wanting the old me back, and then
Speaker 1: I'm going to say here, I am gone again. And
Speaker 1: so you are. You've got this bond to the person
Speaker 1: that is hurting you so badly, but you've been over
Speaker 1: such a slow and long period of time you don't
Speaker 1: realize that the one thing you desperately want so much
Speaker 1: is that good back. And so you've just had like
Speaker 1: the gambler, you've just lost five thousand dollars? Do you
Speaker 1: realize that? But last year I one and that's exactly
Speaker 1: how it feels. But don't you see they did this,
Speaker 1: they did this, they did this. Yea, but he said
Speaker 1: I'm his soul mate. Yeah right, I'm special. I'm special.
Speaker 1: But hang on what the narcissist says and what the
Speaker 1: narcissist does. So if you're a young woman and you're going, gee,
Speaker 1: maybe that's me, have a look at what they say
Speaker 1: and what they do want match right?
Speaker 4: And if in a world beyond this narcissistic relationship where
Speaker 4: you find yourself in a healthy one, what's the most
Speaker 4: surprising thing to someone who's been groomed to respond to
Speaker 4: a narcissists version of true love?
Speaker 1: Look, I think you realize, Oh, I've actually never experienced love.
Speaker 1: I've been controlled, I've been trauma bonded. I have been
Speaker 1: living like a nervous wreck. But it's not love because
Speaker 1: love is easy. There's no it's so is this easy?
Speaker 1: That's probably what I'm thinking. You just say, you just
Speaker 1: do that. You wouldn't because one of the most distressing
Speaker 1: parts of dealing with someone narcissistic is every tiny thing.
Speaker 1: Remember to that. Control can be something as simple as like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, Cynthia and George would like us to come
Speaker 1: over for drinks. It's never yeah, it'd be great, Or
Speaker 1: could you just grab me some milk on your way home?
Speaker 3: No problem, that's not how it is. A narcissist with a.
Speaker 1: Nice It comes with the price, right, I have to
Speaker 1: have this kind of like you're conditioned. You will go
Speaker 1: through a process and I will decide at the end
Speaker 1: of that process whether you get what you want, and
Speaker 1: you are like a prisoners Margie.
Speaker 4: This has been so helpful, and so I know there
Speaker 4: are going to be so many people listening to this
Speaker 4: who are like, yes, I know a narcissist.
Speaker 3: I live with a narcissist. I work with a narcissist.
Speaker 4: Probably not that many people going, oh, I'm a narcissist.
Speaker 3: Give them what we've discussed today.
Speaker 1: Yeah, zero.
Speaker 3: But that's just been really helpful. Thank you so much,
Speaker 3: my pleasure.
Speaker 4: So I've been thinking about that conversation a lot since
Speaker 4: I spoke to Margie, because I think that until I
Speaker 4: really talked to her, I didn't know exactly what a
Speaker 4: narcissist was, even though I've heard about them a lot,
Speaker 4: definitely been involved with a few myself, and I've even
Speaker 4: written a book with one as the main character. But
Speaker 4: now I really know what they are. And I hope
Speaker 4: that if you see yourself in anything in this conversation,
Speaker 4: it gave.
Speaker 3: You some peace and some ideas that might help.
Speaker 4: And if you're wondering what the difference is between a
Speaker 4: narcissist and say, a psychopath or a sociopath or one
Speaker 4: of those other.
Speaker 3: Wonderful things, we have some great episodes for you.
Speaker 4: One is with a woman named Patrick Gagnier who is
Speaker 4: herself a sociopath and she talks very openly and honestly
Speaker 4: about what that means for her as a wife and
Speaker 4: a mom and as a human being in the world.
Speaker 3: And David Gillespie wrote.
Speaker 4: The book on Identifying and Dealing with Psychopaths at Home
Speaker 4: and Work, and Mia interviewed him both. The links to
Speaker 4: those shows are in the show notes right here. The
Speaker 4: host and creator of No Filter is Mia Friedman. The
Speaker 4: executive producer is Naima Brown. Audio and sound design has
Speaker 4: been by Jacob Brown and I have been your guest host,
Speaker 4: Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening,