WEBVTT - How To Protect Yourself Against A Narcissist 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:13.125 You're listening to a Mother and me a podcast. 0:00:13.925 --> 0:00:16.885 Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:18.565 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:18.765 --> 0:00:21.805 Hey there, Before we start today's episode, I. 0:00:21.765 --> 0:00:23.885 Just want to say that you are going to be 0:00:23.925 --> 0:00:27.125 hearing from some wonderful Muma Mea voices over the next 0:00:27.205 --> 0:00:31.005 few weeks as I work on another project. Hollywayen Wright, 0:00:31.085 --> 0:00:34.645 Claire Stevens, a Nama Brown, who is the executive producer 0:00:34.685 --> 0:00:36.765 of this show, are all going to be sitting in 0:00:36.805 --> 0:00:40.125 my chair for a few weeks and doing the same 0:00:40.325 --> 0:00:43.005 wonderful interviews that you know and love from no Filter. 0:00:43.205 --> 0:00:46.085 There are some great conversations coming your way about red 0:00:46.165 --> 0:00:50.485 and green flags in relationships, sex and porn, addiction, escaping 0:00:50.485 --> 0:00:54.005 from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, and more. 0:00:54.365 --> 0:00:56.845 You'll be hearing from me soon. Enjoy. 0:00:58.045 --> 0:01:01.125 You know, if we're susceptible, if we've got particular needs, 0:01:01.685 --> 0:01:04.445 you can bet that the narcissists will find those out 0:01:04.725 --> 0:01:07.525 and give us and tell us exactly you know why 0:01:07.565 --> 0:01:11.325 they understand us. But it won't be too long until 0:01:11.565 --> 0:01:16.725 there'll be something that happens where the devaluation starts. 0:01:20.925 --> 0:01:24.925 For Momma Mia this is no filter and I'm Holly Wainwright. 0:01:25.285 --> 0:01:27.565 You might know my voice from Mamma Mia out Loud 0:01:27.725 --> 0:01:31.005 or from mid but today I'm on no filter and 0:01:31.045 --> 0:01:34.365 I have some questions for you. Have you ever been 0:01:34.485 --> 0:01:38.925 love bonded by a new partner who just seems amazing, 0:01:39.525 --> 0:01:42.965 like you've never been appreciated like this before, only to 0:01:43.045 --> 0:01:46.525 have them go cold as soon as you've committed. Have 0:01:46.685 --> 0:01:49.245 you ever been in a relationship with someone who made 0:01:49.285 --> 0:01:53.125 you feel crazy because of their ability to seem so 0:01:53.365 --> 0:01:56.445 great in front of other people and yet quite a 0:01:56.525 --> 0:02:00.125 nightmare behind closed doors. What about a boss who steals 0:02:00.125 --> 0:02:04.125 your ideas, your thunder and your inspiration, or a parent 0:02:04.205 --> 0:02:08.645 who always made your life about them. Well, according to 0:02:08.685 --> 0:02:13.925 my guest today, chances are you've been involved with a narcissist. Now, 0:02:14.005 --> 0:02:16.525 narcissism is a word that gets thrown around a lot. Now, 0:02:16.565 --> 0:02:19.405 it's very much in the zeitgeist, and everybody's ex seems 0:02:19.405 --> 0:02:22.285 to have been a narcissist. But what really is one? 0:02:22.605 --> 0:02:25.005 How do we understand it? What are the red flags? 0:02:25.285 --> 0:02:27.765 What do you do if you realize you're in a 0:02:27.845 --> 0:02:33.525 relationship with a narcissist? And can a narcissist change. Margie 0:02:33.525 --> 0:02:37.085 Boden is a counselor and a coach, and importantly she 0:02:37.205 --> 0:02:41.085 is a narcissism expert who has all the answers and 0:02:41.205 --> 0:02:47.325 quite an amazing story. Let's jump in with Margie. Narcissist 0:02:47.565 --> 0:02:50.045 is a word that feels like it's sort of thrown 0:02:50.125 --> 0:02:54.165 around a great deal at the moment in particular, and 0:02:54.205 --> 0:02:56.205 we're going to get into some of the different types 0:02:56.245 --> 0:03:01.125 of narcissists soon, but broadly, how do you know if 0:03:01.165 --> 0:03:03.245 somebody in your life or the person you're in a 0:03:03.245 --> 0:03:05.885 relationship with might be a narcissist. 0:03:06.685 --> 0:03:10.645 The simple answer is, for so many of us, we don't. 0:03:11.365 --> 0:03:15.565 We simply don't know. And the impact that it does 0:03:15.725 --> 0:03:20.405 have on those people, you know, survivors who are living 0:03:20.925 --> 0:03:26.445 with someone with narcissistic personality styles or traits or patterns, 0:03:27.565 --> 0:03:32.685 is that they start to suffer. You know, it's in 0:03:32.725 --> 0:03:38.605 the DSM five, But you know, the narcissist doesn't really suffer. 0:03:38.805 --> 0:03:42.165 It's the person usually that they're living with. So if 0:03:42.205 --> 0:03:44.565 it's the child, if it's you know, the partner and 0:03:44.685 --> 0:03:48.325 the kids. In the workplace, it's those who work for 0:03:48.445 --> 0:03:53.725 the narcissists. So that's probably the most distressing thing that 0:03:54.125 --> 0:03:57.765 for so many people right now, I know, even you know, 0:03:58.205 --> 0:04:01.725 via Instagram, I've got people saying, you know, they may 0:04:01.765 --> 0:04:06.205 have been desperately unhappy in a relationship for thirty forty years. 0:04:06.285 --> 0:04:10.725 But I'm not sure if there are no narcissist, is 0:04:10.805 --> 0:04:15.405 if what are the signs are you experiencing? And so 0:04:15.765 --> 0:04:19.325 you know, they might say, well, I'm desperately lonely, and 0:04:19.365 --> 0:04:23.085 then it's the behaviors. So I guess it's probably helpful 0:04:23.285 --> 0:04:26.165 to sort of look at the types of behaviors that 0:04:26.205 --> 0:04:29.005 you might be experiencing again and again, and then if 0:04:29.005 --> 0:04:31.685 I tie them into their traits, it. 0:04:31.645 --> 0:04:37.205 Is actually a recognized personality disorder correct narcissism. Yes, But then, 0:04:37.525 --> 0:04:42.125 as you also expressed, there are traits and behaviors that 0:04:42.325 --> 0:04:45.925 fall under the umbrella of narcissism too. And I guess, 0:04:45.965 --> 0:04:48.925 so what you're sort of saying is it's very hard 0:04:48.965 --> 0:04:51.045 to know whether or not your partner or somebody in 0:04:51.085 --> 0:04:54.285 your life is an actual clinical narcissist, but there are 0:04:54.325 --> 0:04:58.045 behaviors here that are making affecting your life in a 0:04:58.085 --> 0:04:58.845 negative way. 0:04:58.685 --> 0:05:01.445 That give you a good clue. I guess is that accurate? 0:05:02.365 --> 0:05:06.245 Absolutely? I mean, you know, that the number of narcissists 0:05:06.285 --> 0:05:10.525 that are actually diagnosed, obviously are very few because narcissists 0:05:10.565 --> 0:05:13.565 don't tend to front up to therapists and say, can 0:05:13.605 --> 0:05:16.325 you please help me? I've got a problem. I'm destroying 0:05:16.405 --> 0:05:17.885 people's lives. 0:05:18.005 --> 0:05:19.685 Because that's not how they see it. 0:05:19.725 --> 0:05:24.485 Correct, that's that correct. So that's actually part of you know, 0:05:24.845 --> 0:05:28.845 the pattern of personality traits, you know, which include probably 0:05:28.925 --> 0:05:32.045 number one is that lack of empathy. That they just 0:05:32.165 --> 0:05:36.725 have no empathy. And if you're living with that, you go, 0:05:36.845 --> 0:05:39.445 you know, you don't understand, how could you say that? 0:05:39.525 --> 0:05:41.485 How could you do that? Why would you do that 0:05:41.565 --> 0:05:45.725 to me? Don't you care? And it's no. So what 0:05:45.805 --> 0:05:49.125 you often hear people describe the narcissist, You know, there's 0:05:49.125 --> 0:05:52.885 selfish or plenty of people are selfish, so what, that's 0:05:52.925 --> 0:05:55.845 not a big deal. So they're a bit selfish, But 0:05:55.925 --> 0:06:01.005 you know, for the narcissist, it's an absolute lack of empathy, grandiosity, 0:06:01.165 --> 0:06:05.965 you know that I am really more able, more capable 0:06:06.405 --> 0:06:12.205 than really I am. Extremely they're entitled. You know me first, 0:06:12.285 --> 0:06:14.605 why wouldn't I be able to do that? Because you 0:06:14.605 --> 0:06:18.165 know I'm entitled to do that. They're looking for excessive 0:06:18.725 --> 0:06:25.445 validation and admiration. I think everybody envies them. They're pathologically selfish, 0:06:25.485 --> 0:06:29.885 they're pathological liars, they have sensitive they're sort of the 0:06:29.925 --> 0:06:33.165 things that you'll see, I guess more in the DSM five. 0:06:33.245 --> 0:06:36.125 But then the things that I tend to work with 0:06:36.205 --> 0:06:39.325 clients is how's it showing up for you? Yes? 0:06:39.805 --> 0:06:42.045 Because to be honest, Margie, when you just run through 0:06:42.045 --> 0:06:44.525 that list of people, two things came into my mind. 0:06:45.125 --> 0:06:47.645 One that sounds like a lot of alpha males that 0:06:47.765 --> 0:06:52.085 I have come into contact with, yes, And two they 0:06:52.165 --> 0:06:56.685 sound awful. Of course, so if you knew that somebody was, 0:06:56.805 --> 0:06:59.565 if you know, if in the early stages of meeting 0:06:59.605 --> 0:07:02.805 somebody with those traits, you would imagine that you might 0:07:02.925 --> 0:07:06.245 run a mile. But narcissists, am I correct, can be 0:07:06.445 --> 0:07:10.805 very charming, very persuasive, very good at love bombing. 0:07:11.965 --> 0:07:15.125 Look they've actually got you know, like I know, Rominy 0:07:15.205 --> 0:07:17.685 de Vassala says, you know the three seas of Nazism. 0:07:17.685 --> 0:07:21.365 There's charm, charisma, and confidence. Right when you meet them, 0:07:21.565 --> 0:07:26.245 you know they're charming, they're charismatic, and their master manipulators. 0:07:26.285 --> 0:07:30.325 So they go through an abuse cycle and you know 0:07:31.245 --> 0:07:34.005 the first part of that cycle is you know, that 0:07:34.005 --> 0:07:37.885 that love bombing where you'll be dazzled by this knighting 0:07:38.005 --> 0:07:40.765 shining armor who says, you know, you are not like 0:07:40.845 --> 0:07:43.965 all the other women. You are the love of my life. 0:07:44.005 --> 0:07:47.165 And they actually it doesn't matter where in the world 0:07:47.485 --> 0:07:51.565 that you are. They're using the same types of things. 0:07:51.685 --> 0:07:54.565 You know, like I'll hear all the time from around 0:07:54.605 --> 0:07:57.045 the world, like I'll put something up and there'll be 0:07:57.525 --> 0:08:00.845 women and men all around the world say, I can't 0:08:00.925 --> 0:08:05.765 believe that. You know how my partner, that's how they speak. 0:08:06.085 --> 0:08:09.245 How do they all use the same language. You will 0:08:09.565 --> 0:08:14.005 absolutely wooed. They learn as much as they can about you. 0:08:14.565 --> 0:08:17.685 And you know, if you like baking chocolate fudge, what 0:08:17.805 --> 0:08:21.365 do you know? So they right, So you know, you 0:08:21.565 --> 0:08:26.765 feel this incredible connection to this person who you think, 0:08:26.845 --> 0:08:29.565 oh my gosh, like this is extraordinary. 0:08:29.605 --> 0:08:32.045 And women are probably and I mean I know that 0:08:32.125 --> 0:08:33.885 this isn't a gender specific disorder. 0:08:33.885 --> 0:08:35.645 I know they are female narcissists. 0:08:35.165 --> 0:08:40.125 But women are probably particularly susceptible to this early stage 0:08:40.445 --> 0:08:43.125 love bombing because we've kind of been sold a story 0:08:43.165 --> 0:08:48.685 that that's what falling in love is, right, fireworks, obsession, 0:08:49.245 --> 0:08:53.285 They get you in every way, big grandiose gestures of 0:08:53.325 --> 0:08:56.685 their commitment. Like we've kind of been convinced by all 0:08:56.765 --> 0:09:00.045 our fairy tales, whether they're actual fairy tales or romantic 0:09:00.045 --> 0:09:02.725 comedies or whatever, that that's what loves like. And it 0:09:02.925 --> 0:09:07.645 sounds like narcissists are very good performing that role. 0:09:08.045 --> 0:09:13.845 Ah, they're completely formative, right, They're very very performative. So 0:09:14.085 --> 0:09:18.485 you will get this incredible performance, sexual performance. They will 0:09:18.525 --> 0:09:23.645 wow this this person is who However, you know, all 0:09:23.685 --> 0:09:28.285 of this stops. You can't keep on. You know that's 0:09:28.365 --> 0:09:32.645 not authentically who they are, so it stops, which then 0:09:32.765 --> 0:09:38.565 leads to the next stage of devaluation. It's ever so soft, 0:09:38.605 --> 0:09:42.525 but you're you've already bought into the dream. You've been 0:09:42.645 --> 0:09:46.845 told I love you, you are my soul mate and 0:09:46.925 --> 0:09:51.205 we will be together forever. Now you know who doesn't 0:09:51.365 --> 0:09:54.565 like you're just an ordinary person who doesn't believe that. 0:09:54.605 --> 0:09:57.925 Why would someone lie to me and tell me that 0:09:58.005 --> 0:09:59.765 if they tell me that, if they didn't mean it. 0:09:59.765 --> 0:10:03.405 And of course, you know, we bring to the story 0:10:03.485 --> 0:10:07.845 our own vulnerabilities, if we're susceptible, if we've got particular needs. 0:10:08.405 --> 0:10:10.525 You can bet that the no narcissist too will find 0:10:10.525 --> 0:10:13.845 those out and give us and tell us exactly you 0:10:13.885 --> 0:10:17.045 know why they understand us. But it won't be too 0:10:17.125 --> 0:10:21.925 long until there will be something that happens where the 0:10:22.045 --> 0:10:28.405 devaluation starts, because they're always wanting to study and know 0:10:28.445 --> 0:10:32.085 what can I do to you? How much will you take? 0:10:32.405 --> 0:10:36.445 You've got the initial love bombing where you're prepared to forgive, 0:10:36.565 --> 0:10:39.405 and of course you talk to survivors and they've got 0:10:39.645 --> 0:10:44.405 you know, their tolerant, their conscientious, they're forgiving, they're very capable, 0:10:44.605 --> 0:10:49.445 all of those things, which the ideal for someone who's 0:10:49.445 --> 0:10:52.005 an arcissist. They don't choose accidentally. 0:10:52.285 --> 0:10:55.365 So what you're saying is someone who falls under this 0:10:55.445 --> 0:10:57.045 umbrella of narcissm is sort. 0:10:56.885 --> 0:10:59.885 Of seeking out. 0:10:59.205 --> 0:11:01.365 A partner or people in their life that they can 0:11:01.405 --> 0:11:03.805 manipulate and they know what they're I mean, well, we 0:11:03.925 --> 0:11:05.365 might not be inside their heads. We don't know if 0:11:05.365 --> 0:11:08.005 they know what they're doing. But the playbook, it was 0:11:08.085 --> 0:11:10.285 really interesting what you said before for about the playbook 0:11:10.285 --> 0:11:15.125 seems to be the same across cultures, across geographical lines. 0:11:15.765 --> 0:11:20.005 So there are clear phases to this. The love bombing 0:11:20.045 --> 0:11:23.085 that sets up your connection to them, so you are. 0:11:23.365 --> 0:11:26.485 To trust that safety this person, ye. 0:11:26.725 --> 0:11:30.605 And then they'll start letting you down and you're saying, 0:11:30.605 --> 0:11:33.045 that's because they want to test you in a way. 0:11:34.125 --> 0:11:37.285 Is a narcissist after something from you? Like, I mean, 0:11:37.525 --> 0:11:39.925 I assume that this is obviously vrees it, Like are 0:11:39.925 --> 0:11:41.925 they trying to gam you? 0:11:42.165 --> 0:11:43.765 Or is this just how they operate? 0:11:44.525 --> 0:11:50.525 So a narcissist wants supply, we call it supply, and 0:11:51.205 --> 0:11:54.245 depending on who they are, they want different supplies. So 0:11:54.365 --> 0:11:57.125 it could be depending on what stage they're at, what 0:11:57.285 --> 0:12:00.165 age they're at, you know that they want different things. 0:12:00.285 --> 0:12:03.805 So you know, in the early stages they might want 0:12:03.965 --> 0:12:08.525 a partner who gives them a lot of validation and attention. 0:12:09.765 --> 0:12:15.165 But whatever stage they're at, a narcissists must have control. 0:12:15.605 --> 0:12:20.205 They always have to control you. So one of the 0:12:20.205 --> 0:12:23.045 things that every survivor thinks, you know, when you're in 0:12:23.085 --> 0:12:26.205 a relationship and you desperately want to get out, one 0:12:26.205 --> 0:12:27.925 of the things that you think about is, oh, what 0:12:27.965 --> 0:12:31.285 if they're What if I've been with this person for ten, fifteen, 0:12:31.365 --> 0:12:34.445 twenty thirty years? What if I leave them and suddenly 0:12:34.485 --> 0:12:37.685 they repartner and they're really nice after all of this 0:12:37.845 --> 0:12:40.205 work they go on and they're really nice to the 0:12:40.245 --> 0:12:45.725 next person. They won't be because they don't change. They 0:12:45.765 --> 0:12:50.085 will use exactly the same cycle, the abuse cycle. So 0:12:50.445 --> 0:12:53.845 they start off and they love bombing and the devaluation. 0:12:54.045 --> 0:12:58.445 So you're destabilized now and you're much easier to manipulate, 0:12:58.605 --> 0:13:02.165 so you're a bit oh, I guess that was okay. 0:13:02.765 --> 0:13:05.845 And then in between this there's that they come back 0:13:05.885 --> 0:13:08.125 into to do a little bit of love bombing. So 0:13:08.725 --> 0:13:12.125 the relationship ship is all about reward and punishment, a 0:13:12.165 --> 0:13:15.765 lot of punishment before you not like you don't know 0:13:15.845 --> 0:13:18.045 that all of this is happening, of course, but you 0:13:18.085 --> 0:13:21.205 know there's a lot of punishment to keep you under 0:13:21.245 --> 0:13:24.965 their control, and there's a bit of reward in there also, 0:13:25.205 --> 0:13:29.045 so we keep looking for the reward because it will 0:13:29.085 --> 0:13:32.445 come because they do love me. They don't mean to 0:13:32.485 --> 0:13:35.805 do this, and so you know, there's there's the love bombing, 0:13:36.085 --> 0:13:39.885 there's the devaluation, and then they'll discard you. I'll find, 0:13:40.285 --> 0:13:42.965 you know, a shinier toy, a better toy. There's something 0:13:43.045 --> 0:13:45.445 you know they might find. Look, I'd prefer to be, 0:13:45.685 --> 0:13:47.885 you know, watching soccer. I'd prefer to go cut I 0:13:48.005 --> 0:13:51.325 prefer to watch your porn. But I'm going to keep 0:13:51.365 --> 0:13:55.005 you around because your good supply. You know, you look, 0:13:55.045 --> 0:13:57.885 you look after the kids. You actually you're actually the 0:13:57.885 --> 0:14:01.165 bread winner too. I get to do what I like, 0:14:01.365 --> 0:14:04.605 I get to behave however I like, and you just 0:14:04.685 --> 0:14:08.485 keep everything ticking along to the outside world, which is 0:14:08.845 --> 0:14:13.085 very important to the narcissist. Things are looking okay, look 0:14:13.085 --> 0:14:17.245 at them, they've got you know, the family, everything's chugging along. 0:14:17.365 --> 0:14:22.845 They're great. Hello, neighbors, Hello, everybody you know. But this 0:14:23.405 --> 0:14:26.485 behavior happens behind closed doors. 0:14:26.965 --> 0:14:30.325 A narcissists very good at masking, like as in pretending 0:14:30.405 --> 0:14:33.885 that they care about your sick mom or pretending that 0:14:33.965 --> 0:14:36.405 they care or is it only if there's something in 0:14:36.445 --> 0:14:36.885 it for them. 0:14:37.365 --> 0:14:40.125 There always has to be something in it for them. 0:14:40.725 --> 0:14:43.965 So you know, if they're nice to the neighbors, and 0:14:44.045 --> 0:14:47.925 most of them are, regardless of whether you need anything done, 0:14:48.045 --> 0:14:52.325 it's because the neighbors validate them and go, he's a 0:14:52.605 --> 0:14:57.885 or shit's great. Great people. Yeah, that's important that other 0:14:57.965 --> 0:14:59.405 people think they're great. 0:15:00.525 --> 0:15:03.285 So one of the things that's interesting about this, and 0:15:03.365 --> 0:15:05.845 I know how you came to this work, is that 0:15:05.925 --> 0:15:08.525 you yourself were in a relationship with a narcissist for a 0:15:08.525 --> 0:15:12.245 long time. What your work is now is often helping 0:15:12.285 --> 0:15:16.845 people identify and get out of those relationships and rebuild 0:15:16.885 --> 0:15:17.805 themselves afterwards. 0:15:17.845 --> 0:15:19.525 Am I correct in saying yes? 0:15:19.765 --> 0:15:20.085 Yes? 0:15:20.325 --> 0:15:23.965 Is there an early exit opportunity? 0:15:24.085 --> 0:15:24.205 Like? 0:15:24.245 --> 0:15:26.965 Are you I know what you were saying that it's 0:15:26.965 --> 0:15:29.525 difficult to sort of have a sort of broad stroke. 0:15:29.605 --> 0:15:32.685 These are the signs. But if you're dating a narcissist, 0:15:32.725 --> 0:15:35.525 if you haven't got so far in now that you're 0:15:35.925 --> 0:15:37.685 you're thinking about things like how what do we do 0:15:37.685 --> 0:15:40.365 about the children? What do we do about money? Is 0:15:40.405 --> 0:15:43.365 there you know, is there a kind of warning sign 0:15:43.445 --> 0:15:46.245 that you could that would help an early exit. 0:15:46.885 --> 0:15:51.405 That's a really good question, but it's incredibly complex because 0:15:51.565 --> 0:15:58.205 you're actually in the abuse cycle already and you're experiencing 0:15:58.405 --> 0:16:04.165 intermittent reinforcement, which is the most powerful force for you know, 0:16:04.205 --> 0:16:09.005 it's the reason why someone is sitting in the casino 0:16:09.165 --> 0:16:12.005 and it's thirty five degrees outside and it's beautiful, and 0:16:12.045 --> 0:16:14.845 they're sitting in the dark casino and they've just blown 0:16:15.085 --> 0:16:17.725 five thousand dollars and you say to them, what are 0:16:17.725 --> 0:16:20.805 you doing? You know, you're losing money in here? It's beautiful. 0:16:20.845 --> 0:16:22.765 I don't know what are you doing? And that they'll say, 0:16:23.525 --> 0:16:28.605 last year I won. And that's intermittent reinforcement. You know 0:16:28.765 --> 0:16:31.965 when when when we get hot, when it's high, God, 0:16:32.045 --> 0:16:35.005 it's good. So we've got to keep going. You know, 0:16:35.045 --> 0:16:38.165 when you're in that relationship, you just you know, I 0:16:38.285 --> 0:16:41.485 know that they love me. You know, we live in hope. 0:16:41.525 --> 0:16:45.005 Hope is very powerful, and often when you are in that, 0:16:45.885 --> 0:16:49.765 in that early stage, you will have friends, You will 0:16:49.765 --> 0:16:52.285 have people saying, what are you doing? Can't you see 0:16:52.525 --> 0:16:53.445 that they're no good? 0:16:54.405 --> 0:16:59.045 But you're now in an abuse cycle, and the narcissist 0:16:59.405 --> 0:17:03.085 is very clever, very good at manipulating. So one of 0:17:03.125 --> 0:17:06.205 the things that they will do is to start to 0:17:06.325 --> 0:17:10.965 slowly isolate you from your support networks. 0:17:11.525 --> 0:17:15.125 And you know, if you've got a parent or a 0:17:15.165 --> 0:17:18.645 friend who says I don't like them, I can see 0:17:18.765 --> 0:17:23.045 something's not right. The narcissist will say, oh, you know, 0:17:23.885 --> 0:17:28.565 let's sue your friend. Well, she tried to you know, 0:17:28.725 --> 0:17:31.805 she likes me, she tried to crack onto me. I 0:17:31.805 --> 0:17:34.485 wouldn't trust her or your mother. Have you noticed her. 0:17:34.525 --> 0:17:39.485 She's always interfering. She doesn't care about you. So all 0:17:39.605 --> 0:17:48.565 the time being brainwashed and controlled and manipulated and who 0:17:48.685 --> 0:17:50.045 expects to talk into that. 0:17:55.365 --> 0:17:58.685 After this shortbreak, I asked Margie more about the relationship 0:17:58.685 --> 0:18:02.925 between narcissism and abuse and how narcissists react when they 0:18:02.965 --> 0:18:05.805 realize that you're leaving them stay with us? 0:18:10.845 --> 0:18:11.645 Are abuses? 0:18:12.485 --> 0:18:16.085 All narcissists are narcissists, all abuses? Are these two things 0:18:16.885 --> 0:18:18.725 separate or interwoven? 0:18:19.445 --> 0:18:22.485 Look, I think you can have someone who's who's toxic 0:18:22.645 --> 0:18:29.925 and you know, aggressive, but that's different to someone who's narcissistic, 0:18:30.085 --> 0:18:36.605 who's who's who's very very systematic, and the abuse, the 0:18:36.645 --> 0:18:42.125 psychological abuse that goes on. You know, the narcissist may 0:18:42.285 --> 0:18:49.285 may never ever raise their voice, they might never hit you, 0:18:50.805 --> 0:18:56.405 but day in day out, they will be undermining. They'll 0:18:56.405 --> 0:19:00.285 be punishing you, They'll be withdrawing, they'll be giving you 0:19:00.365 --> 0:19:04.045 the silent treatment. They'll be saying you know like that. 0:19:04.205 --> 0:19:10.605 They'll find out what what was your childhood vulnerability and saying, oh, yes, 0:19:10.645 --> 0:19:12.645 well you were always a bit like that, won't you. 0:19:12.885 --> 0:19:19.325 So you lose your own agency, your capacity. 0:19:19.405 --> 0:19:23.085 Absolutely, So it must be so hard to unpick yourself 0:19:23.085 --> 0:19:26.285 from this relationship. So, either in your own experience or 0:19:26.325 --> 0:19:28.525 in the experience of lots of people who you have 0:19:28.685 --> 0:19:32.845 helped through your work. Now, what might be the kind 0:19:33.045 --> 0:19:35.645 of I guess final story is the wrong word, but 0:19:35.685 --> 0:19:38.925 what might be the fun the thing that makes somebody go, 0:19:39.125 --> 0:19:42.445 I have to get out of here, Like what is 0:19:42.485 --> 0:19:43.085 that moment? 0:19:43.285 --> 0:19:45.965 Like that's interesting because I've had a lot of people 0:19:46.005 --> 0:19:50.085 on Instagram message me and ask me exactly that you know, well, 0:19:50.165 --> 0:19:52.805 you've done it, so what was it? When will I know? 0:19:55.045 --> 0:19:58.565 And I think, you know, you get to a point 0:19:58.925 --> 0:20:04.805 where it's there's an acceptance that I'm I'm going under, 0:20:05.285 --> 0:20:10.885 I'm getting sick, and it's unbearable. This is unbearable, Like 0:20:11.045 --> 0:20:12.805 that's how bad it is. 0:20:14.445 --> 0:20:18.645 I'm going under, and that there may be this time 0:20:18.725 --> 0:20:23.325 when they come back with their reinforcement and their you know, 0:20:25.125 --> 0:20:28.045 it's too many times through the cycle, and you don't 0:20:28.085 --> 0:20:29.765 think you can go through it anymore. 0:20:30.485 --> 0:20:37.845 You're forgiven, you've lived in hope, you've waited, and you 0:20:37.885 --> 0:20:41.405 start to go, well, you know, there's no change because 0:20:41.685 --> 0:20:45.005 there's always the words the narcissists, And this is the 0:20:45.045 --> 0:20:48.525 hard part is separating because they future fake and they 0:20:48.565 --> 0:20:52.805 promise I will change, I'll do this, I'll do that, 0:20:52.885 --> 0:20:56.565 and once again you look through your lens and you go, well, 0:20:56.605 --> 0:20:59.605 they said that they're going to do that. That's reasonable, 0:20:59.965 --> 0:21:03.605 But you're not dealing with a reasonable person. You're dealing 0:21:03.645 --> 0:21:06.045 with someone with these personality traits. 0:21:07.445 --> 0:21:11.725 So how does a narcissist behave once they realize that 0:21:11.845 --> 0:21:16.285 maybe you are leaving? How do they behave when they 0:21:16.285 --> 0:21:17.805 are threatened in that way? 0:21:19.125 --> 0:21:22.405 So there's a number of different ways they will behave. 0:21:23.285 --> 0:21:27.445 Narcissists saying in the workplace once they know you know, 0:21:28.765 --> 0:21:33.725 so watch out because they're coming for you because no 0:21:33.805 --> 0:21:37.165 one is allowed to know who they are. 0:21:37.525 --> 0:21:40.405 So you mean when you say, when they know, you know, 0:21:41.885 --> 0:21:46.885 whether that's in the workplace or in a relationship, if 0:21:46.925 --> 0:21:49.205 you call them out on it, or if just that 0:21:49.885 --> 0:21:52.485 or rather if their magic stops working on you. 0:21:52.685 --> 0:21:55.645 So yeah, so it's not so much you know in 0:21:55.685 --> 0:22:00.245 the workplace. I've certainly experienced, you know, narcissists in the workplace, 0:22:00.885 --> 0:22:03.365 and you know, when they take credit for your work 0:22:04.365 --> 0:22:09.525 the fortieth time and they lie and you know, they 0:22:09.725 --> 0:22:13.525 start doing illegal things and you just think, look, this 0:22:13.805 --> 0:22:18.005 is this is not okay. I'm actually going to push 0:22:18.045 --> 0:22:21.245 back on this. I'm not going to agree to this. 0:22:21.245 --> 0:22:24.405 This is not okay. So when you don't give them 0:22:24.765 --> 0:22:30.165 what they want, they're going to tighten the screws. They're 0:22:30.205 --> 0:22:35.285 going to make you like they'll punish you like narcissists punish. 0:22:35.605 --> 0:22:39.365 So do what I want or I punish you. You know, 0:22:39.445 --> 0:22:42.925 if you're in the workplace, I'll demote you, I'll sack you, 0:22:43.925 --> 0:22:47.965 i will start to smear your name. I'll tell everybody 0:22:48.085 --> 0:22:52.285 things that aren't true because I'm entitled to do that. 0:22:54.165 --> 0:22:57.485 This character portrait that we're painting is so depressing because 0:22:57.525 --> 0:23:01.685 it sounds like their master manipulators and they're likely to win. 0:23:02.325 --> 0:23:06.645 How do you win against the narcissists in that situation? 0:23:07.845 --> 0:23:10.805 Look, I think, how do you win against the narcissists? 0:23:10.845 --> 0:23:15.125 Like in the workplace, going up against the narcissist, it's 0:23:15.165 --> 0:23:19.645 a long game, right, There's a very good chance, there's 0:23:19.645 --> 0:23:23.805 a ninety nine percent chance that you know, in the 0:23:23.845 --> 0:23:28.925 short term, you will lose because you are not dishonest, 0:23:28.925 --> 0:23:32.325 you're not a pathological lie. You won't sleep with anybody 0:23:32.925 --> 0:23:36.645 to cover it like no, but they will. They'll do 0:23:36.765 --> 0:23:41.445 whatever they need to to bring you down. So how 0:23:41.445 --> 0:23:44.325 do you win? I know that it's easy to say this, 0:23:44.525 --> 0:23:47.685 but you get away from them, you leave, you leave. 0:23:48.045 --> 0:23:52.045 I mean I've watched people stay in the workplace and 0:23:52.085 --> 0:23:56.365 try and fight them, and their lives have crumbled because 0:23:56.965 --> 0:24:01.285 you just don't go up against a narcissist. Not in 0:24:01.485 --> 0:24:04.205 a short term. You're going to lose. Now you might 0:24:04.365 --> 0:24:07.325 hear five years down the track, Oh yeah, that was 0:24:07.565 --> 0:24:10.005 they finally found out about you know so and so, 0:24:10.765 --> 0:24:14.605 and they've been asked to leave. But how do you 0:24:14.725 --> 0:24:17.405 win against someone who's a master manipulator? 0:24:18.125 --> 0:24:22.005 And you can't play them because although they're susceptible to 0:24:22.085 --> 0:24:25.485 flattery and so on there, it sounds like they have 0:24:25.565 --> 0:24:29.925 no limits and you do as you were just saying, yeah, and. 0:24:30.445 --> 0:24:34.925 In a situation you said, holy you can't play them. 0:24:35.445 --> 0:24:41.685 So you could stay and play them and you know, 0:24:42.085 --> 0:24:47.245 compliment them and play up to them. And how long 0:24:47.725 --> 0:24:51.365 can you do that because they're very needy and that 0:24:51.565 --> 0:24:55.325 constant validation. I mean, you wouldn't get your work done, 0:24:55.325 --> 0:24:59.525 you wouldn't do anything else. You would be feeding the narcissist. 0:25:00.285 --> 0:25:03.285 So that situation's not really sustainable either. 0:25:04.245 --> 0:25:08.045 So back to a relationship situation. You've decided that you 0:25:08.085 --> 0:25:11.045 are getting out of this relationationship. You've been through the 0:25:11.085 --> 0:25:13.165 cycle so many times, as you say, you're now in 0:25:13.165 --> 0:25:17.485 a psychological place that is untenable. You may have to 0:25:17.525 --> 0:25:20.325 co parent with this person. You may have to have 0:25:20.405 --> 0:25:22.165 them and continue to have them in your life in 0:25:22.205 --> 0:25:24.645 some way. You may need to negotiate a financial settlement 0:25:24.645 --> 0:25:24.965 with them. 0:25:25.005 --> 0:25:27.285