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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother and me a podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Hey there, Before we start today's episode, I.

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Speaker 2: Just want to say that you are going to be

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Speaker 2: hearing from some wonderful Muma Mea voices over the next

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Speaker 2: few weeks as I work on another project. Hollywayen Wright,

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Speaker 2: Claire Stevens, a Nama Brown, who is the executive producer

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Speaker 2: of this show, are all going to be sitting in

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Speaker 2: my chair for a few weeks and doing the same

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Speaker 2: wonderful interviews that you know and love from no Filter.

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Speaker 2: There are some great conversations coming your way about red

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Speaker 2: and green flags in relationships, sex and porn, addiction, escaping

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Speaker 2: from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, and more.

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Speaker 3: You'll be hearing from me soon. Enjoy.

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Speaker 1: You know, if we're susceptible, if we've got particular needs,

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Speaker 1: you can bet that the narcissists will find those out

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Speaker 1: and give us and tell us exactly you know why

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Speaker 1: they understand us. But it won't be too long until

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Speaker 1: there'll be something that happens where the devaluation starts.

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Speaker 4: For Momma Mia this is no filter and I'm Holly Wainwright.

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Speaker 4: You might know my voice from Mamma Mia out Loud

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Speaker 4: or from mid but today I'm on no filter and

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Speaker 4: I have some questions for you. Have you ever been

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Speaker 4: love bonded by a new partner who just seems amazing,

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Speaker 4: like you've never been appreciated like this before, only to

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Speaker 4: have them go cold as soon as you've committed. Have

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Speaker 4: you ever been in a relationship with someone who made

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Speaker 4: you feel crazy because of their ability to seem so

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Speaker 4: great in front of other people and yet quite a

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Speaker 4: nightmare behind closed doors. What about a boss who steals

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Speaker 4: your ideas, your thunder and your inspiration, or a parent

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Speaker 4: who always made your life about them. Well, according to

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Speaker 4: my guest today, chances are you've been involved with a narcissist. Now,

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Speaker 4: narcissism is a word that gets thrown around a lot. Now,

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Speaker 4: it's very much in the zeitgeist, and everybody's ex seems

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Speaker 4: to have been a narcissist. But what really is one?

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Speaker 4: How do we understand it? What are the red flags?

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Speaker 4: What do you do if you realize you're in a

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Speaker 4: relationship with a narcissist? And can a narcissist change. Margie

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Speaker 4: Boden is a counselor and a coach, and importantly she

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Speaker 4: is a narcissism expert who has all the answers and

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Speaker 4: quite an amazing story. Let's jump in with Margie. Narcissist

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Speaker 4: is a word that feels like it's sort of thrown

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Speaker 4: around a great deal at the moment in particular, and

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Speaker 4: we're going to get into some of the different types

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Speaker 4: of narcissists soon, but broadly, how do you know if

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Speaker 4: somebody in your life or the person you're in a

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Speaker 4: relationship with might be a narcissist.

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Speaker 1: The simple answer is, for so many of us, we don't.

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Speaker 1: We simply don't know. And the impact that it does

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Speaker 1: have on those people, you know, survivors who are living

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Speaker 1: with someone with narcissistic personality styles or traits or patterns,

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Speaker 1: is that they start to suffer. You know, it's in

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Speaker 1: the DSM five, But you know, the narcissist doesn't really suffer.

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Speaker 1: It's the person usually that they're living with. So if

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Speaker 1: it's the child, if it's you know, the partner and

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Speaker 1: the kids. In the workplace, it's those who work for

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Speaker 1: the narcissists. So that's probably the most distressing thing that

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Speaker 1: for so many people right now, I know, even you know,

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Speaker 1: via Instagram, I've got people saying, you know, they may

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Speaker 1: have been desperately unhappy in a relationship for thirty forty years.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not sure if there are no narcissist, is

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Speaker 1: if what are the signs are you experiencing? And so

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Speaker 1: you know, they might say, well, I'm desperately lonely, and

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Speaker 1: then it's the behaviors. So I guess it's probably helpful

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Speaker 1: to sort of look at the types of behaviors that

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Speaker 1: you might be experiencing again and again, and then if

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Speaker 1: I tie them into their traits, it.

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Speaker 4: Is actually a recognized personality disorder correct narcissism. Yes, But then,

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Speaker 4: as you also expressed, there are traits and behaviors that

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Speaker 4: fall under the umbrella of narcissism too. And I guess,

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Speaker 4: so what you're sort of saying is it's very hard

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Speaker 4: to know whether or not your partner or somebody in

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Speaker 4: your life is an actual clinical narcissist, but there are

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Speaker 4: behaviors here that are making affecting your life in a

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Speaker 4: negative way.

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Speaker 3: That give you a good clue. I guess is that accurate?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely? I mean, you know, that the number of narcissists

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Speaker 1: that are actually diagnosed, obviously are very few because narcissists

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Speaker 1: don't tend to front up to therapists and say, can

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Speaker 1: you please help me? I've got a problem. I'm destroying

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Speaker 1: people's lives.

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Speaker 3: Because that's not how they see it.

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Speaker 1: Correct, that's that correct. So that's actually part of you know,

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Speaker 1: the pattern of personality traits, you know, which include probably

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Speaker 1: number one is that lack of empathy. That they just

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Speaker 1: have no empathy. And if you're living with that, you go,

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Speaker 1: you know, you don't understand, how could you say that?

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Speaker 1: How could you do that? Why would you do that

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Speaker 1: to me? Don't you care? And it's no. So what

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Speaker 1: you often hear people describe the narcissist, You know, there's

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Speaker 1: selfish or plenty of people are selfish, so what, that's

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Speaker 1: not a big deal. So they're a bit selfish, But

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Speaker 1: you know, for the narcissist, it's an absolute lack of empathy, grandiosity,

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Speaker 1: you know that I am really more able, more capable

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Speaker 1: than really I am. Extremely they're entitled. You know me first,

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Speaker 1: why wouldn't I be able to do that? Because you

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Speaker 1: know I'm entitled to do that. They're looking for excessive

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Speaker 1: validation and admiration. I think everybody envies them. They're pathologically selfish,

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Speaker 1: they're pathological liars, they have sensitive they're sort of the

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Speaker 1: things that you'll see, I guess more in the DSM five.

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Speaker 1: But then the things that I tend to work with

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Speaker 1: clients is how's it showing up for you? Yes?

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Speaker 4: Because to be honest, Margie, when you just run through

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Speaker 4: that list of people, two things came into my mind.

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Speaker 4: One that sounds like a lot of alpha males that

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Speaker 4: I have come into contact with, yes, And two they

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Speaker 4: sound awful. Of course, so if you knew that somebody was,

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Speaker 4: if you know, if in the early stages of meeting

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Speaker 4: somebody with those traits, you would imagine that you might

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Speaker 4: run a mile. But narcissists, am I correct, can be

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Speaker 4: very charming, very persuasive, very good at love bombing.

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Speaker 1: Look they've actually got you know, like I know, Rominy

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Speaker 1: de Vassala says, you know the three seas of Nazism.

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Speaker 1: There's charm, charisma, and confidence. Right when you meet them,

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Speaker 1: you know they're charming, they're charismatic, and their master manipulators.

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Speaker 1: So they go through an abuse cycle and you know

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Speaker 1: the first part of that cycle is you know, that

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Speaker 1: that love bombing where you'll be dazzled by this knighting

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Speaker 1: shining armor who says, you know, you are not like

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Speaker 1: all the other women. You are the love of my life.

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Speaker 1: And they actually it doesn't matter where in the world

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Speaker 1: that you are. They're using the same types of things.

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Speaker 1: You know, like I'll hear all the time from around

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Speaker 1: the world, like I'll put something up and there'll be

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Speaker 1: women and men all around the world say, I can't

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Speaker 1: believe that. You know how my partner, that's how they speak.

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Speaker 1: How do they all use the same language. You will

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Speaker 1: absolutely wooed. They learn as much as they can about you.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if you like baking chocolate fudge, what

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Speaker 1: do you know? So they right, So you know, you

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Speaker 1: feel this incredible connection to this person who you think,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like this is extraordinary.

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Speaker 4: And women are probably and I mean I know that

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Speaker 4: this isn't a gender specific disorder.

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Speaker 3: I know they are female narcissists.

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Speaker 4: But women are probably particularly susceptible to this early stage

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Speaker 4: love bombing because we've kind of been sold a story

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Speaker 4: that that's what falling in love is, right, fireworks, obsession,

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Speaker 4: They get you in every way, big grandiose gestures of

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Speaker 4: their commitment. Like we've kind of been convinced by all

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Speaker 4: our fairy tales, whether they're actual fairy tales or romantic

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Speaker 4: comedies or whatever, that that's what loves like. And it

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Speaker 4: sounds like narcissists are very good performing that role.

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Speaker 1: Ah, they're completely formative, right, They're very very performative. So

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Speaker 1: you will get this incredible performance, sexual performance. They will

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Speaker 1: wow this this person is who However, you know, all

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Speaker 1: of this stops. You can't keep on. You know that's

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Speaker 1: not authentically who they are, so it stops, which then

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Speaker 1: leads to the next stage of devaluation. It's ever so soft,

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Speaker 1: but you're you've already bought into the dream. You've been

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Speaker 1: told I love you, you are my soul mate and

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Speaker 1: we will be together forever. Now you know who doesn't

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Speaker 1: like you're just an ordinary person who doesn't believe that.

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Speaker 1: Why would someone lie to me and tell me that

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Speaker 1: if they tell me that, if they didn't mean it.

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Speaker 1: And of course, you know, we bring to the story

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Speaker 1: our own vulnerabilities, if we're susceptible, if we've got particular needs.

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Speaker 1: You can bet that the no narcissist too will find

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Speaker 1: those out and give us and tell us exactly you

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Speaker 1: know why they understand us. But it won't be too

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Speaker 1: long until there will be something that happens where the

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Speaker 1: devaluation starts, because they're always wanting to study and know

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Speaker 1: what can I do to you? How much will you take?

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Speaker 1: You've got the initial love bombing where you're prepared to forgive,

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Speaker 1: and of course you talk to survivors and they've got

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Speaker 1: you know, their tolerant, their conscientious, they're forgiving, they're very capable,

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Speaker 1: all of those things, which the ideal for someone who's

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Speaker 1: an arcissist. They don't choose accidentally.

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Speaker 4: So what you're saying is someone who falls under this

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Speaker 4: umbrella of narcissm is sort.

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Speaker 3: Of seeking out.

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Speaker 4: A partner or people in their life that they can

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Speaker 4: manipulate and they know what they're I mean, well, we

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Speaker 4: might not be inside their heads. We don't know if

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Speaker 4: they know what they're doing. But the playbook, it was

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Speaker 4: really interesting what you said before for about the playbook

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Speaker 4: seems to be the same across cultures, across geographical lines.

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Speaker 4: So there are clear phases to this. The love bombing

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Speaker 4: that sets up your connection to them, so you are.

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Speaker 1: To trust that safety this person, ye.

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Speaker 4: And then they'll start letting you down and you're saying,

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Speaker 4: that's because they want to test you in a way.

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Speaker 4: Is a narcissist after something from you? Like, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I assume that this is obviously vrees it, Like are

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Speaker 4: they trying to gam you?

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Speaker 3: Or is this just how they operate?

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Speaker 1: So a narcissist wants supply, we call it supply, and

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Speaker 1: depending on who they are, they want different supplies. So

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Speaker 1: it could be depending on what stage they're at, what

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Speaker 1: age they're at, you know that they want different things.

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Speaker 1: So you know, in the early stages they might want

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Speaker 1: a partner who gives them a lot of validation and attention.

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Speaker 1: But whatever stage they're at, a narcissists must have control.

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Speaker 1: They always have to control you. So one of the

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Speaker 1: things that every survivor thinks, you know, when you're in

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Speaker 1: a relationship and you desperately want to get out, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that you think about is, oh, what

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Speaker 1: if they're What if I've been with this person for ten, fifteen,

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty years? What if I leave them and suddenly

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Speaker 1: they repartner and they're really nice after all of this

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Speaker 1: work they go on and they're really nice to the

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Speaker 1: next person. They won't be because they don't change. They

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Speaker 1: will use exactly the same cycle, the abuse cycle. So

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Speaker 1: they start off and they love bombing and the devaluation.

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Speaker 1: So you're destabilized now and you're much easier to manipulate,

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Speaker 1: so you're a bit oh, I guess that was okay.

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Speaker 1: And then in between this there's that they come back

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Speaker 1: into to do a little bit of love bombing. So

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Speaker 1: the relationship ship is all about reward and punishment, a

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Speaker 1: lot of punishment before you not like you don't know

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Speaker 1: that all of this is happening, of course, but you

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Speaker 1: know there's a lot of punishment to keep you under

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Speaker 1: their control, and there's a bit of reward in there also,

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Speaker 1: so we keep looking for the reward because it will

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Speaker 1: come because they do love me. They don't mean to

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Speaker 1: do this, and so you know, there's there's the love bombing,

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Speaker 1: there's the devaluation, and then they'll discard you. I'll find,

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Speaker 1: you know, a shinier toy, a better toy. There's something

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Speaker 1: you know they might find. Look, I'd prefer to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, watching soccer. I'd prefer to go cut I

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Speaker 1: prefer to watch your porn. But I'm going to keep

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Speaker 1: you around because your good supply. You know, you look,

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Speaker 1: you look after the kids. You actually you're actually the

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Speaker 1: bread winner too. I get to do what I like,

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Speaker 1: I get to behave however I like, and you just

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Speaker 1: keep everything ticking along to the outside world, which is

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Speaker 1: very important to the narcissist. Things are looking okay, look

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Speaker 1: at them, they've got you know, the family, everything's chugging along.

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Speaker 1: They're great. Hello, neighbors, Hello, everybody you know. But this

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Speaker 1: behavior happens behind closed doors.

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Speaker 4: A narcissists very good at masking, like as in pretending

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Speaker 4: that they care about your sick mom or pretending that

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Speaker 4: they care or is it only if there's something in

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Speaker 4: it for them.

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Speaker 1: There always has to be something in it for them.

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Speaker 1: So you know, if they're nice to the neighbors, and

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Speaker 1: most of them are, regardless of whether you need anything done,

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Speaker 1: it's because the neighbors validate them and go, he's a

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Speaker 1: or shit's great. Great people. Yeah, that's important that other

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Speaker 1: people think they're great.

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Speaker 4: So one of the things that's interesting about this, and

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Speaker 4: I know how you came to this work, is that

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Speaker 4: you yourself were in a relationship with a narcissist for a

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Speaker 4: long time. What your work is now is often helping

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Speaker 4: people identify and get out of those relationships and rebuild

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Speaker 4: themselves afterwards.

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Speaker 3: Am I correct in saying yes?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 4: Is there an early exit opportunity?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 4: Are you I know what you were saying that it's

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Speaker 4: difficult to sort of have a sort of broad stroke.

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Speaker 4: These are the signs. But if you're dating a narcissist,

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Speaker 4: if you haven't got so far in now that you're

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Speaker 4: you're thinking about things like how what do we do

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Speaker 4: about the children? What do we do about money? Is

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Speaker 4: there you know, is there a kind of warning sign

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Speaker 4: that you could that would help an early exit.

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Speaker 1: That's a really good question, but it's incredibly complex because

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Speaker 1: you're actually in the abuse cycle already and you're experiencing

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Speaker 1: intermittent reinforcement, which is the most powerful force for you know,

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Speaker 1: it's the reason why someone is sitting in the casino

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Speaker 1: and it's thirty five degrees outside and it's beautiful, and

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Speaker 1: they're sitting in the dark casino and they've just blown

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Speaker 1: five thousand dollars and you say to them, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? You know, you're losing money in here? It's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what are you doing? And that they'll say,

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Speaker 1: last year I won. And that's intermittent reinforcement. You know

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Speaker 1: when when when we get hot, when it's high, God,

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Speaker 1: it's good. So we've got to keep going. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you're in that relationship, you just you know, I

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Speaker 1: know that they love me. You know, we live in hope.

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Speaker 1: Hope is very powerful, and often when you are in that,

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Speaker 1: in that early stage, you will have friends, You will

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Speaker 1: have people saying, what are you doing? Can't you see

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Speaker 1: that they're no good?

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Speaker 5: But you're now in an abuse cycle, and the narcissist

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Speaker 5: is very clever, very good at manipulating. So one of

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Speaker 5: the things that they will do is to start to

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Speaker 5: slowly isolate you from your support networks.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if you've got a parent or a

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Speaker 1: friend who says I don't like them, I can see

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Speaker 1: something's not right. The narcissist will say, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's sue your friend. Well, she tried to you know,

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Speaker 1: she likes me, she tried to crack onto me. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't trust her or your mother. Have you noticed her.

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Speaker 1: She's always interfering. She doesn't care about you. So all

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Speaker 1: the time being brainwashed and controlled and manipulated and who

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Speaker 1: expects to talk into that.

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Speaker 4: After this shortbreak, I asked Margie more about the relationship

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Speaker 4: between narcissism and abuse and how narcissists react when they

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Speaker 4: realize that you're leaving them stay with us?

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Speaker 3: Are abuses?

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Speaker 4: All narcissists are narcissists, all abuses? Are these two things

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Speaker 4: separate or interwoven?

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Speaker 1: Look, I think you can have someone who's who's toxic

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Speaker 1: and you know, aggressive, but that's different to someone who's narcissistic,

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Speaker 1: who's who's who's very very systematic, and the abuse, the

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Speaker 1: psychological abuse that goes on. You know, the narcissist may

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Speaker 1: may never ever raise their voice, they might never hit you,

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Speaker 1: but day in day out, they will be undermining. They'll

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Speaker 1: be punishing you, They'll be withdrawing, they'll be giving you

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Speaker 1: the silent treatment. They'll be saying you know like that.

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Speaker 1: They'll find out what what was your childhood vulnerability and saying, oh, yes,

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Speaker 1: well you were always a bit like that, won't you.

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Speaker 1: So you lose your own agency, your capacity.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, So it must be so hard to unpick yourself

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Speaker 4: from this relationship. So, either in your own experience or

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Speaker 4: in the experience of lots of people who you have

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Speaker 4: helped through your work. Now, what might be the kind

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Speaker 4: of I guess final story is the wrong word, but

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Speaker 4: what might be the fun the thing that makes somebody go,

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Speaker 4: I have to get out of here, Like what is

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Speaker 4: that moment?

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Speaker 1: Like that's interesting because I've had a lot of people

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Speaker 1: on Instagram message me and ask me exactly that you know, well,

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Speaker 1: you've done it, so what was it? When will I know?

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, you get to a point

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Speaker 1: where it's there's an acceptance that I'm I'm going under,

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Speaker 1: I'm getting sick, and it's unbearable. This is unbearable, Like

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Speaker 1: that's how bad it is.

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Speaker 4: I'm going under, and that there may be this time

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Speaker 4: when they come back with their reinforcement and their you know,

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Speaker 4: it's too many times through the cycle, and you don't

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Speaker 4: think you can go through it anymore.

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Speaker 1: You're forgiven, you've lived in hope, you've waited, and you

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Speaker 1: start to go, well, you know, there's no change because

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Speaker 1: there's always the words the narcissists, And this is the

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Speaker 1: hard part is separating because they future fake and they

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Speaker 1: promise I will change, I'll do this, I'll do that,

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Speaker 1: and once again you look through your lens and you go, well,

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Speaker 1: they said that they're going to do that. That's reasonable,

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Speaker 1: But you're not dealing with a reasonable person. You're dealing

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Speaker 1: with someone with these personality traits.

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Speaker 4: So how does a narcissist behave once they realize that

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Speaker 4: maybe you are leaving? How do they behave when they

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Speaker 4: are threatened in that way?

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Speaker 1: So there's a number of different ways they will behave.

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Speaker 1: Narcissists saying in the workplace once they know you know,

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Speaker 1: so watch out because they're coming for you because no

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Speaker 1: one is allowed to know who they are.

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Speaker 4: So you mean when you say, when they know, you know,

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Speaker 4: whether that's in the workplace or in a relationship, if

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Speaker 4: you call them out on it, or if just that

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Speaker 4: or rather if their magic stops working on you.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so it's not so much you know in

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Speaker 1: the workplace. I've certainly experienced, you know, narcissists in the workplace,

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Speaker 1: and you know, when they take credit for your work

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Speaker 1: the fortieth time and they lie and you know, they

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Speaker 1: start doing illegal things and you just think, look, this

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Speaker 1: is this is not okay. I'm actually going to push

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Speaker 1: back on this. I'm not going to agree to this.

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Speaker 1: This is not okay. So when you don't give them

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Speaker 1: what they want, they're going to tighten the screws. They're

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Speaker 1: going to make you like they'll punish you like narcissists punish.

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Speaker 1: So do what I want or I punish you. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're in the workplace, I'll demote you, I'll sack you,

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Speaker 1: i will start to smear your name. I'll tell everybody

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Speaker 1: things that aren't true because I'm entitled to do that.

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Speaker 4: This character portrait that we're painting is so depressing because

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Speaker 4: it sounds like their master manipulators and they're likely to win.

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Speaker 4: How do you win against the narcissists in that situation?

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Speaker 1: Look, I think, how do you win against the narcissists?

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Speaker 1: Like in the workplace, going up against the narcissist, it's

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Speaker 1: a long game, right, There's a very good chance, there's

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Speaker 1: a ninety nine percent chance that you know, in the

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Speaker 1: short term, you will lose because you are not dishonest,

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Speaker 1: you're not a pathological lie. You won't sleep with anybody

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Speaker 1: to cover it like no, but they will. They'll do

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Speaker 1: whatever they need to to bring you down. So how

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Speaker 1: do you win? I know that it's easy to say this,

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Speaker 1: but you get away from them, you leave, you leave.

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Speaker 1: I mean I've watched people stay in the workplace and

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Speaker 1: try and fight them, and their lives have crumbled because

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Speaker 1: you just don't go up against a narcissist. Not in

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Speaker 1: a short term. You're going to lose. Now you might

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Speaker 1: hear five years down the track, Oh yeah, that was

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Speaker 1: they finally found out about you know so and so,

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Speaker 1: and they've been asked to leave. But how do you

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Speaker 1: win against someone who's a master manipulator?

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Speaker 3: And you can't play them because although they're susceptible to

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Speaker 3: flattery and so on there, it sounds like they have

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Speaker 3: no limits and you do as you were just saying, yeah, and.

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Speaker 1: In a situation you said, holy you can't play them.

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Speaker 1: So you could stay and play them and you know,

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Speaker 1: compliment them and play up to them. And how long

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Speaker 1: can you do that because they're very needy and that

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Speaker 1: constant validation. I mean, you wouldn't get your work done,

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't do anything else. You would be feeding the narcissist.

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Speaker 1: So that situation's not really sustainable either.

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Speaker 4: So back to a relationship situation. You've decided that you

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Speaker 4: are getting out of this relationationship. You've been through the

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Speaker 4: cycle so many times, as you say, you're now in

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Speaker 4: a psychological place that is untenable. You may have to

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Speaker 4: co parent with this person. You may have to have

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Speaker 4: them and continue to have them in your life in

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Speaker 4: some way. You may need to negotiate a financial settlement

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Speaker 4: with them.

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Speaker 3: You may need to do all kinds of things. And

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Speaker 3: whether from your experience or experience the people if you've

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Speaker 3: worked with, what does that survival path look like?

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Speaker 1: I'd be lying if I said any of it was easy.

405
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Speaker 1: You know, if they were difficult in the relationship, you

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Speaker 1: can bet that they're going to be difficult awful in divorce.

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Speaker 1: You know, they will tell you don't worry, you know,

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Speaker 1: fifty fifty, or don't worry, I get lawyers involved, don't worry.

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Speaker 1: But remember they're pathological liars. And so often when people

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Speaker 1: step into the divorce, they'll say, look, he has you know,

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Speaker 1: she has told me that they'll be fair, and I

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Speaker 1: just think it's it's not so they'res and sure enough

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Speaker 1: I'll come back and you know, you'll often hear people say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well what you said, they did that.

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Speaker 3: So because they're predictable, the behavior is predictable, as you

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Speaker 3: said before.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely predictable. So you ask, what's what's the best way

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Speaker 1: to survive this? If you become or if you work

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Speaker 1: with someone who knows every step that the narcissists, that

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Speaker 1: you know exactly what they're going to do, and you

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Speaker 1: know exactly how you need to respond the narcissists. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you pull the pin on the relationship and you've

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Speaker 1: got children, especially young children, and you go enough, I'm

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Speaker 1: done divorce and it wasn't the narcissist's idea, then they're

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Speaker 1: going to need to punish you. You know, I've had

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Speaker 1: clients say that. You know, they've even said to them,

427
00:27:07,925 --> 00:27:13,525
Speaker 1: I'll get back you for this forever. So they're going

428
00:27:13,605 --> 00:27:16,285
Speaker 1: to want to punish you. Now, if they can't get

429
00:27:16,325 --> 00:27:21,445
Speaker 1: to you, they will punish you through the kids. So

430
00:27:21,845 --> 00:27:27,085
Speaker 1: the kids become pawns in their game of getting to you.

431
00:27:27,725 --> 00:27:32,645
Speaker 1: So how do you manage this? So knowing what you're

432
00:27:32,685 --> 00:27:37,805
Speaker 1: dealing with and knowing that every move that the narcissist

433
00:27:37,925 --> 00:27:44,725
Speaker 1: makes is about control. So when they contact you and

434
00:27:44,765 --> 00:27:48,005
Speaker 1: they you know, they send the message, this is what

435
00:27:48,045 --> 00:27:52,965
Speaker 1: I'm going to do. You don't respond, or you don't react,

436
00:27:54,085 --> 00:27:58,125
Speaker 1: they want to see I've just got to it. I've

437
00:27:58,205 --> 00:28:01,725
Speaker 1: just she's going to hate this one.

438
00:28:02,725 --> 00:28:06,085
Speaker 4: So it sounds very much like obviously this is complex,

439
00:28:06,285 --> 00:28:08,805
Speaker 4: high stake stuff. So if you do believe that that's

440
00:28:08,805 --> 00:28:12,445
Speaker 4: what you're doing with you absolutely need help to do that, right.

441
00:28:14,085 --> 00:28:17,885
Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, I get millions of messages how do I

442
00:28:17,925 --> 00:28:19,605
Speaker 1: do this? And I think, well, I actually didn't do

443
00:28:19,645 --> 00:28:23,005
Speaker 1: it on my own. I've got life you probably need.

444
00:28:23,205 --> 00:28:25,285
Speaker 1: This is a very complex.

445
00:28:26,485 --> 00:28:29,845
Speaker 4: It's you know, it's abuse of absolutely.

446
00:28:29,885 --> 00:28:34,085
Speaker 1: You know, it's really hard to do this. You know,

447
00:28:34,525 --> 00:28:36,805
Speaker 1: as I said, you have no agency, You've lost your

448
00:28:36,845 --> 00:28:40,565
Speaker 1: self trust, you know, your self esteem. You're in a

449
00:28:40,605 --> 00:28:45,525
Speaker 1: really bad place. So reach out and get someone to

450
00:28:45,645 --> 00:28:52,485
Speaker 1: help you, someone who understands those narcissistic personality traits.

451
00:28:52,725 --> 00:28:55,125
Speaker 4: I have seen you say though, to be you know,

452
00:28:55,325 --> 00:28:59,325
Speaker 4: have an optimistic tone here, that it is possible, of course,

453
00:28:59,405 --> 00:29:04,205
Speaker 4: to extricate yourself from a relationship like this, that there is,

454
00:29:04,325 --> 00:29:06,605
Speaker 4: there is and can be freedom and happiness on the

455
00:29:06,645 --> 00:29:10,725
Speaker 4: other side. Is it really important for you that people

456
00:29:10,765 --> 00:29:14,725
Speaker 4: hear that message, because you know, as you've said, in

457
00:29:14,765 --> 00:29:17,725
Speaker 4: a lot of what we've discussed today, it's clear how

458
00:29:18,165 --> 00:29:20,965
Speaker 4: damaging to your psyche and your self worth and your

459
00:29:20,965 --> 00:29:22,685
Speaker 4: self esteem a relationship like This.

460
00:29:22,685 --> 00:29:23,285
Speaker 3: Can be.

461
00:29:24,925 --> 00:29:29,725
Speaker 4: Important for people to hear that they can help save themselves.

462
00:29:29,805 --> 00:29:33,325
Speaker 1: I guess when you do lose your agency and you don't,

463
00:29:33,525 --> 00:29:37,045
Speaker 1: you don't know who you are anymore. And it doesn't

464
00:29:37,045 --> 00:29:40,005
Speaker 1: matter how well educated you are or where you live

465
00:29:40,405 --> 00:29:45,125
Speaker 1: or what your life looks like. You are living day

466
00:29:45,165 --> 00:29:49,245
Speaker 1: to day a nightmare and your hollow. You don't know

467
00:29:49,285 --> 00:29:53,045
Speaker 1: who you are. And from that place, you know, I

468
00:29:53,085 --> 00:29:58,325
Speaker 1: wish I wish someone had come to me and said,

469
00:29:58,605 --> 00:30:01,805
Speaker 1: do you know what, in five years down the track,

470
00:30:02,765 --> 00:30:06,405
Speaker 1: you can have another life. You can write another chap

471
00:30:06,485 --> 00:30:09,325
Speaker 1: that you can you can have all of those things,

472
00:30:09,325 --> 00:30:14,605
Speaker 1: things that are not yours at the moment. And I

473
00:30:14,685 --> 00:30:16,925
Speaker 1: had someone the other day so to me, Oh, look,

474
00:30:17,245 --> 00:30:20,885
Speaker 1: I follow lots of people on Instagram that talk about Nazism,

475
00:30:20,885 --> 00:30:23,365
Speaker 1: but you're one of the few people that actually say

476
00:30:23,445 --> 00:30:26,005
Speaker 1: you can. There is a happy ending you can have.

477
00:30:25,925 --> 00:30:28,165
Speaker 4: That you know at the beginning when I said to you,

478
00:30:28,245 --> 00:30:31,325
Speaker 4: it sounds like narcissist is a word that's used a lot. Now,

479
00:30:32,165 --> 00:30:34,805
Speaker 4: what I'm getting very much from you that's so interesting

480
00:30:35,005 --> 00:30:37,885
Speaker 4: is that it is really important to identify this behavior

481
00:30:37,925 --> 00:30:41,685
Speaker 4: because if you're in a relationship with a person like that,

482
00:30:41,845 --> 00:30:45,165
Speaker 4: you're it's a serious thing and you need to be

483
00:30:45,165 --> 00:30:47,045
Speaker 4: able to identify it so you know how to get

484
00:30:47,045 --> 00:30:50,085
Speaker 4: out of it. And it's not a case of you're overreacting,

485
00:30:50,365 --> 00:30:53,765
Speaker 4: you're exaggerating, you're making because I'm sure that's probably what

486
00:30:53,765 --> 00:30:55,485
Speaker 4: you're being told by the narcissist, right.

487
00:30:55,565 --> 00:30:57,965
Speaker 1: So absolutely, it's absolutely.

488
00:30:57,605 --> 00:30:59,605
Speaker 4: Your kind of work. And the fact that people are

489
00:30:59,605 --> 00:31:03,565
Speaker 4: becoming more aware of this trait means it's validating for

490
00:31:03,605 --> 00:31:06,725
Speaker 4: the people in these relationships to understand that what they're

491
00:31:06,805 --> 00:31:08,205
Speaker 4: up against is significant.

492
00:31:08,765 --> 00:31:11,845
Speaker 1: It doesn't sink in, but I reckon I get probably

493
00:31:12,645 --> 00:31:20,645
Speaker 1: woh no, less than ten messages every week from people

494
00:31:20,925 --> 00:31:26,885
Speaker 1: around the world saying thank you you have saved my life,

495
00:31:27,485 --> 00:31:31,765
Speaker 1: and I go, what, Well, it doesn't, you know, Like,

496
00:31:31,805 --> 00:31:36,365
Speaker 1: it doesn't really sink in, But I just think that's just,

497
00:31:36,565 --> 00:31:40,845
Speaker 1: oh my god, that's so healing for me, Like, wow, wow,

498
00:31:40,925 --> 00:31:41,765
Speaker 1: that's so cool.

499
00:31:44,605 --> 00:31:47,845
Speaker 4: After this short break, I asked Margie the million dollar question,

500
00:31:48,405 --> 00:31:52,765
Speaker 4: Can narcissists change? And are they born or made?

501
00:31:53,325 --> 00:31:59,525
Speaker 3: Stay with us? Can narcissists change?

502
00:31:59,805 --> 00:32:02,765
Speaker 4: You said at the beginning of our conversation that narcissists

503
00:32:03,725 --> 00:32:06,605
Speaker 4: don't know their narcissists or do I mean I don't

504
00:32:06,605 --> 00:32:07,325
Speaker 4: know if that's true.

505
00:32:07,365 --> 00:32:11,245
Speaker 1: But they know their behaviors absolutely, And how do we

506
00:32:11,285 --> 00:32:15,405
Speaker 1: know that? Well, you know, what's your narcissists belittle you

507
00:32:15,725 --> 00:32:20,285
Speaker 1: and ignore you for two weeks because you asked them

508
00:32:20,445 --> 00:32:23,885
Speaker 1: or told them that they came home too late or

509
00:32:24,005 --> 00:32:26,205
Speaker 1: drank too much, and they've ignored you for two weeks

510
00:32:26,205 --> 00:32:30,005
Speaker 1: and they walk out the front door and say, hey, Jerry,

511
00:32:30,205 --> 00:32:36,565
Speaker 1: how are your mate? You think they know they their behavior,

512
00:32:37,285 --> 00:32:40,645
Speaker 1: this bad behavior, this abusive behavior, that's what you get.

513
00:32:41,685 --> 00:32:46,045
Speaker 1: But to everybody else, that's what they get. They know,

514
00:32:47,165 --> 00:32:51,925
Speaker 1: you know, do they identify as being narcissists? Of course not,

515
00:32:52,645 --> 00:32:55,885
Speaker 1: of course not. They don't self reflect. It's why they

516
00:32:55,885 --> 00:32:59,845
Speaker 1: don't end up in therapy. Can they change, No, they

517
00:32:59,885 --> 00:33:04,725
Speaker 1: can't change. Can they modify their behavior? Yes, they can learn,

518
00:33:05,605 --> 00:33:10,325
Speaker 1: slow down, be mindful when you say that, that's really

519
00:33:10,365 --> 00:33:14,365
Speaker 1: deeply hurtful. So so you know how many of them do?

520
00:33:14,525 --> 00:33:14,965
Speaker 1: Not many?

521
00:33:16,045 --> 00:33:22,045
Speaker 3: Because if you're entirely self focused, why would you change?

522
00:33:22,605 --> 00:33:24,685
Speaker 3: What kind of parents do narcissists make.

523
00:33:25,085 --> 00:33:28,925
Speaker 1: I like to say that narcissists they don't have the

524
00:33:29,205 --> 00:33:32,085
Speaker 1: you know, they're not built for the heavy lifting of parenting.

525
00:33:32,925 --> 00:33:36,405
Speaker 1: So you know, they don't have empathy. So you know,

526
00:33:36,445 --> 00:33:40,485
Speaker 1: when a child is suffering, what like come on top,

527
00:33:40,565 --> 00:33:45,445
Speaker 1: mend tough and up whatever, they're often not present. There's

528
00:33:45,485 --> 00:33:48,165
Speaker 1: better things to be doing other than you know, like

529
00:33:48,205 --> 00:33:51,205
Speaker 1: there's a computer game, or there's some pulling to watch

530
00:33:51,245 --> 00:33:54,325
Speaker 1: on my phone, or there's maybe I'll be drinking. There's

531
00:33:54,045 --> 00:33:57,165
Speaker 1: there's you know, like kids, kids don't really what are

532
00:33:57,165 --> 00:34:00,685
Speaker 1: they giving kids that they do? Often you know, there's

533
00:34:00,725 --> 00:34:05,245
Speaker 1: there's a lot of literature about they'll have one child

534
00:34:05,965 --> 00:34:09,445
Speaker 1: that is in their image, the golden child that that

535
00:34:09,605 --> 00:34:14,685
Speaker 1: they reward and put a lot of time into and

536
00:34:15,605 --> 00:34:18,765
Speaker 1: focus on and put a lot of pressure on you

537
00:34:19,245 --> 00:34:23,165
Speaker 1: to so they can live vicariously through that child. But

538
00:34:23,925 --> 00:34:26,685
Speaker 1: if you've got narcissistic parents that they can be cruel,

539
00:34:26,765 --> 00:34:29,325
Speaker 1: that they don't nurture you. You know, they're not able

540
00:34:29,405 --> 00:34:33,765
Speaker 1: to to give you what you need. You know, they'll

541
00:34:33,845 --> 00:34:37,565
Speaker 1: let you down. They're not going to communicate, as I said,

542
00:34:37,605 --> 00:34:39,325
Speaker 1: they're not they're not empathic.

543
00:34:40,165 --> 00:34:40,845
Speaker 3: M hm.

544
00:34:40,885 --> 00:34:45,165
Speaker 1: You just you just oh, there's yeah, what am I

545
00:34:45,205 --> 00:34:48,325
Speaker 1: going to get out of your kids? But watch them

546
00:34:48,805 --> 00:34:55,005
Speaker 1: change when there's a divorce and the kids become the

547
00:34:55,565 --> 00:35:00,725
Speaker 1: you know, the other parents really really cares deeply about

548
00:35:01,005 --> 00:35:03,325
Speaker 1: you know, they've they've suffered all of this abuse and

549
00:35:03,405 --> 00:35:05,565
Speaker 1: the last thing they want to do is to let

550
00:35:05,645 --> 00:35:10,525
Speaker 1: the narcissistic parent get their hands on the kids, because

551
00:35:10,565 --> 00:35:13,845
Speaker 1: the kids are not that they're not going to be

552
00:35:13,925 --> 00:35:14,885
Speaker 1: overly safe.

553
00:35:15,685 --> 00:35:17,765
Speaker 4: Do you, in the work that you do with people,

554
00:35:17,805 --> 00:35:21,125
Speaker 4: do you advise them to And again, I know this

555
00:35:21,165 --> 00:35:25,725
Speaker 4: is high stakes, complicated stuff, but broadly, are you going

556
00:35:25,805 --> 00:35:28,365
Speaker 4: to get much traction when you if you say to

557
00:35:28,405 --> 00:35:30,485
Speaker 4: the people, the people who are helping you with your

558
00:35:30,485 --> 00:35:33,205
Speaker 4: divorce or who are dealing with the custody settlement, my

559
00:35:33,365 --> 00:35:36,845
Speaker 4: partner is a narcissist. He like, do you think there's

560
00:35:36,885 --> 00:35:39,965
Speaker 4: an understanding enough there that that will help?

561
00:35:40,125 --> 00:35:40,685
Speaker 3: Like if you can.

562
00:35:40,965 --> 00:35:43,125
Speaker 1: No, In actual fact, I would advise them not to,

563
00:35:43,485 --> 00:35:48,565
Speaker 1: especially in the legal world, you know, and if you're

564
00:35:48,565 --> 00:35:51,685
Speaker 1: female and you come in that there's a certain danger

565
00:35:51,845 --> 00:35:54,125
Speaker 1: in you know, because they're asked to say, oh, look,

566
00:35:54,205 --> 00:35:56,805
Speaker 1: she's probably told you I'm a narcissist. You know, she's

567
00:35:56,805 --> 00:36:01,125
Speaker 1: a lunatic. Anyway, No, she's not qualified, but that's dangerous.

568
00:36:01,605 --> 00:36:05,165
Speaker 1: But what you can do, and you always must keep

569
00:36:05,485 --> 00:36:11,045
Speaker 1: meticulous documentation because they're like, I didn't say that, I

570
00:36:11,045 --> 00:36:13,645
Speaker 1: didn't do that. Yes she did, I've got the text.

571
00:36:14,485 --> 00:36:16,645
Speaker 1: Yes she did, I've got the records, I've got the

572
00:36:16,645 --> 00:36:22,085
Speaker 1: bank statement. So you have to and it's exhausting. You

573
00:36:22,125 --> 00:36:27,045
Speaker 1: have to keep meticulous records. And when you aren't describing

574
00:36:27,085 --> 00:36:32,125
Speaker 1: their behavior, you know, in the legal world, you describe

575
00:36:32,645 --> 00:36:37,645
Speaker 1: the behavior, you don't then say, you know this is narcissistic.

576
00:36:39,005 --> 00:36:42,805
Speaker 3: No, a narcissist born or made.

577
00:36:43,725 --> 00:36:48,125
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probably the biggest question that everybody wants to know.

578
00:36:48,365 --> 00:36:54,325
Speaker 1: And there's the latest theory is that it's you know,

579
00:36:54,405 --> 00:36:59,565
Speaker 1: roughly sort of eighty twenty. Eighty percent is nurture and

580
00:37:00,125 --> 00:37:06,365
Speaker 1: twenty percent is the personality that you're born with, and

581
00:37:06,445 --> 00:37:09,645
Speaker 1: a lot of it is parenting, whether you're you know,

582
00:37:10,005 --> 00:37:17,405
Speaker 1: over the grandiose narcissist who is witnesses and watches parents

583
00:37:18,205 --> 00:37:23,565
Speaker 1: be entitled and treat people without empathy, and the expectation

584
00:37:23,725 --> 00:37:27,965
Speaker 1: on that child is that they will perform for the

585
00:37:28,045 --> 00:37:32,245
Speaker 1: parent and do an excel and you know, an extension

586
00:37:32,245 --> 00:37:38,005
Speaker 1: of the parent. But the vulnerable or covert narcissist that

587
00:37:38,125 --> 00:37:44,405
Speaker 1: the parenting style lacks nurturing and lacks those types of things,

588
00:37:44,445 --> 00:37:47,925
Speaker 1: you know, and if empathy is taught, then they're not

589
00:37:48,365 --> 00:37:53,365
Speaker 1: taught and not nurtured. They're not taught to the empathy.

590
00:37:53,605 --> 00:37:56,365
Speaker 4: So if a parent is thinking I don't want to

591
00:37:56,405 --> 00:37:59,685
Speaker 4: raise a narcissist, I mean to the long list of things.

592
00:37:59,445 --> 00:38:00,525
Speaker 3: That parents worry about.

593
00:38:01,445 --> 00:38:05,005
Speaker 4: Like, if you're thinking I don't want to raise a narcissist,

594
00:38:05,525 --> 00:38:08,285
Speaker 4: it's probable that you're not going to if you're thinking

595
00:38:08,325 --> 00:38:11,325
Speaker 4: mindfully about it and you're showing empathy and care, and.

596
00:38:11,845 --> 00:38:15,605
Speaker 1: Yeah, empathy is probably the number one trait that you

597
00:38:15,645 --> 00:38:20,365
Speaker 1: would want to be instilling in your children. And I

598
00:38:20,445 --> 00:38:24,765
Speaker 1: know that for parents who are parallel because you don't

599
00:38:24,805 --> 00:38:28,085
Speaker 1: really co parent with a narcissist because they're antagonistic and

600
00:38:28,125 --> 00:38:31,365
Speaker 1: it's high conflict. So you know you've got a parallel parent.

601
00:38:31,925 --> 00:38:34,005
Speaker 1: You know, they often say, you know, how can I

602
00:38:34,085 --> 00:38:37,765
Speaker 1: try and help my child? I know what they're going

603
00:38:37,805 --> 00:38:41,645
Speaker 1: to every second weekend. And I said, look, you have

604
00:38:41,965 --> 00:38:46,925
Speaker 1: everything that a narcissist doesn't have. You've got patience, you've

605
00:38:46,925 --> 00:38:53,445
Speaker 1: got time, you communicate, you're empathic, you won't let them down.

606
00:38:53,965 --> 00:39:00,085
Speaker 1: You know, you are consistent. You've already got so many

607
00:39:00,125 --> 00:39:06,765
Speaker 1: things to give your child. Sooner or later, kids are

608
00:39:06,765 --> 00:39:13,325
Speaker 1: going to see being let down again. Oh, like the

609
00:39:13,445 --> 00:39:16,405
Speaker 1: narcissist does stuff up.

610
00:39:18,605 --> 00:39:21,045
Speaker 4: I said at the beginning of this that you're one

611
00:39:21,045 --> 00:39:23,285
Speaker 4: of your descriptions of narcists sounded like a lot of

612
00:39:23,325 --> 00:39:23,965
Speaker 4: alpha males.

613
00:39:24,005 --> 00:39:24,245
Speaker 1: I know.

614
00:39:25,405 --> 00:39:27,525
Speaker 3: Is narcissism more prevalent in men than women?

615
00:39:28,405 --> 00:39:28,805
Speaker 1: It is?

616
00:39:29,205 --> 00:39:31,965
Speaker 3: How much like how there are female narcissists.

617
00:39:32,765 --> 00:39:37,085
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I've worked with clients who have got, you know,

618
00:39:37,245 --> 00:39:42,085
Speaker 1: the female narcissists that they're trying to desperately, you know,

619
00:39:42,325 --> 00:39:46,965
Speaker 1: the kids are being destroyed. And I've seen you know, narcissists,

620
00:39:47,085 --> 00:39:51,645
Speaker 1: female narcissists. You know, in the workplace. Female narcissists in

621
00:39:51,685 --> 00:39:55,165
Speaker 1: the workplace often use their sexuality and charm.

622
00:39:56,085 --> 00:39:58,085
Speaker 3: They use their chart in a different way.

623
00:39:58,085 --> 00:40:01,245
Speaker 4: You said at the beginning, the three c's charm, charisma, confidence.

624
00:40:01,845 --> 00:40:05,325
Speaker 4: The female narcissists might use those in slightly different ways.

625
00:40:06,205 --> 00:40:08,525
Speaker 3: Yes, I see, you just might.

626
00:40:10,205 --> 00:40:13,965
Speaker 4: What's the best way to spot a narcissist at work, Margie.

627
00:40:14,285 --> 00:40:19,805
Speaker 1: Wow ah gee, it's really easy when you know you

628
00:40:19,845 --> 00:40:25,845
Speaker 1: know what you're looking at. But they because I've just

629
00:40:25,885 --> 00:40:31,205
Speaker 1: had another situation where another narcissist has stepped into another

630
00:40:31,245 --> 00:40:34,205
Speaker 1: workplace and done exactly what they did in the prior workplace,

631
00:40:34,205 --> 00:40:39,165
Speaker 1: and absolutely blown it apart. You know, they're pathological liars.

632
00:40:39,845 --> 00:40:43,405
Speaker 1: They lie, Oh my god, do they lie. They big

633
00:40:43,445 --> 00:40:47,405
Speaker 1: note themselves, they steer your ideas. They're bullies.

634
00:40:49,885 --> 00:40:51,405
Speaker 3: They sound like the worst bosses.

635
00:40:52,805 --> 00:40:59,885
Speaker 1: Well, the mental health it's a very serious, very serious concern.

636
00:41:00,805 --> 00:41:05,005
Speaker 1: People get very sick. And if you can't leave, like

637
00:41:05,165 --> 00:41:10,765
Speaker 1: you can't leave the workplace, it's you know, it's unimaginable,

638
00:41:10,845 --> 00:41:15,725
Speaker 1: it's unbearable. They smear your name that narcissists love to get,

639
00:41:15,765 --> 00:41:18,085
Speaker 1: whether it's your partner, whether it's in the workplace, you know,

640
00:41:18,685 --> 00:41:24,805
Speaker 1: whether they get in first. Even most narcissistic parents, whether

641
00:41:24,845 --> 00:41:29,005
Speaker 1: you realize it or not, the narcissist is smearing your

642
00:41:29,125 --> 00:41:32,485
Speaker 1: name to the kids from a young age. Oh look

643
00:41:32,525 --> 00:41:35,445
Speaker 1: at silly old mummy. She's never been any good at that.

644
00:41:36,005 --> 00:41:42,325
Speaker 1: Oh isn't she crazy or not that like? And you

645
00:41:42,365 --> 00:41:44,605
Speaker 1: don't even realize it's so subtle.

646
00:41:45,365 --> 00:41:49,205
Speaker 4: That's so interesting, Margie, if you could talk to the

647
00:41:49,325 --> 00:41:51,925
Speaker 4: version of yourself that was in that relationship for such

648
00:41:51,925 --> 00:41:56,005
Speaker 4: a long time, knowing all that you know now you know,

649
00:41:56,085 --> 00:41:59,325
Speaker 4: you've got so many people following you who engage with

650
00:41:59,365 --> 00:42:05,365
Speaker 4: your education and your work because you're clearly, very clear

651
00:42:05,445 --> 00:42:08,845
Speaker 4: eyed about this, Now, what would you tell her? And

652
00:42:08,925 --> 00:42:09,725
Speaker 4: that's it situation.

653
00:42:10,405 --> 00:42:16,965
Speaker 1: Look something that's that's impossible. It's impossible given the manipulation

654
00:42:17,445 --> 00:42:20,805
Speaker 1: and the you know, the trauma bond that you're in.

655
00:42:22,685 --> 00:42:29,125
Speaker 1: But every single person that I speak to knows that

656
00:42:29,245 --> 00:42:34,485
Speaker 1: the relationship is it's not right. You know that. But

657
00:42:35,925 --> 00:42:38,845
Speaker 1: because you're in a trauma bond, you can't leave.

658
00:42:38,925 --> 00:42:40,405
Speaker 3: So what's a trauma bond?

659
00:42:41,045 --> 00:42:44,885
Speaker 1: I talked about the abuse cycle? So when the abuse cycle,

660
00:42:44,965 --> 00:42:48,085
Speaker 1: you know, you're groomed, so you know, first of all,

661
00:42:48,125 --> 00:42:49,965
Speaker 1: you love bond, and then you you know, how much

662
00:42:50,205 --> 00:42:53,165
Speaker 1: can you take. I'm going to destabilize you little by

663
00:42:53,205 --> 00:42:55,845
Speaker 1: little by little, so you know you're really not sure

664
00:42:55,925 --> 00:42:58,205
Speaker 1: what's right and what which side up, which side down?

665
00:42:58,285 --> 00:43:00,885
Speaker 1: And then I'm going to discard you, and you're going

666
00:43:00,925 --> 00:43:05,445
Speaker 1: to be desperately wanting the old me back, and then

667
00:43:05,485 --> 00:43:08,845
Speaker 1: I'm going to say here, I am gone again. And

668
00:43:08,925 --> 00:43:13,645
Speaker 1: so you are. You've got this bond to the person

669
00:43:14,085 --> 00:43:17,845
Speaker 1: that is hurting you so badly, but you've been over

670
00:43:17,965 --> 00:43:22,645
Speaker 1: such a slow and long period of time you don't

671
00:43:22,725 --> 00:43:26,205
Speaker 1: realize that the one thing you desperately want so much

672
00:43:26,685 --> 00:43:30,765
Speaker 1: is that good back. And so you've just had like

673
00:43:30,805 --> 00:43:33,885
Speaker 1: the gambler, you've just lost five thousand dollars? Do you

674
00:43:33,885 --> 00:43:38,965
Speaker 1: realize that? But last year I one and that's exactly

675
00:43:39,765 --> 00:43:42,965
Speaker 1: how it feels. But don't you see they did this,

676
00:43:43,085 --> 00:43:47,005
Speaker 1: they did this, they did this. Yea, but he said

677
00:43:47,005 --> 00:43:51,685
Speaker 1: I'm his soul mate. Yeah right, I'm special. I'm special.

678
00:43:52,045 --> 00:43:58,005
Speaker 1: But hang on what the narcissist says and what the

679
00:43:58,125 --> 00:44:03,325
Speaker 1: narcissist does. So if you're a young woman and you're going, gee,

680
00:44:03,325 --> 00:44:06,205
Speaker 1: maybe that's me, have a look at what they say

681
00:44:07,405 --> 00:44:11,085
Speaker 1: and what they do want match right?

682
00:44:11,885 --> 00:44:16,925
Speaker 4: And if in a world beyond this narcissistic relationship where

683
00:44:16,965 --> 00:44:20,405
Speaker 4: you find yourself in a healthy one, what's the most

684
00:44:20,405 --> 00:44:25,365
Speaker 4: surprising thing to someone who's been groomed to respond to

685
00:44:25,405 --> 00:44:27,525
Speaker 4: a narcissists version of true love?

686
00:44:29,765 --> 00:44:34,205
Speaker 1: Look, I think you realize, Oh, I've actually never experienced love.

687
00:44:34,765 --> 00:44:39,645
Speaker 1: I've been controlled, I've been trauma bonded. I have been

688
00:44:39,685 --> 00:44:45,645
Speaker 1: living like a nervous wreck. But it's not love because

689
00:44:45,725 --> 00:44:51,645
Speaker 1: love is easy. There's no it's so is this easy?

690
00:44:52,765 --> 00:44:56,925
Speaker 1: That's probably what I'm thinking. You just say, you just

691
00:44:57,005 --> 00:45:00,645
Speaker 1: do that. You wouldn't because one of the most distressing

692
00:45:00,765 --> 00:45:08,605
Speaker 1: parts of dealing with someone narcissistic is every tiny thing.

693
00:45:08,685 --> 00:45:12,285
Speaker 1: Remember to that. Control can be something as simple as like, oh,

694
00:45:12,365 --> 00:45:16,045
Speaker 1: you know, Cynthia and George would like us to come

695
00:45:16,045 --> 00:45:21,125
Speaker 1: over for drinks. It's never yeah, it'd be great, Or

696
00:45:21,205 --> 00:45:23,845
Speaker 1: could you just grab me some milk on your way home?

697
00:45:24,325 --> 00:45:28,005
Speaker 3: No problem, that's not how it is. A narcissist with a.

698
00:45:28,045 --> 00:45:33,285
Speaker 1: Nice It comes with the price, right, I have to

699
00:45:33,365 --> 00:45:37,885
Speaker 1: have this kind of like you're conditioned. You will go

700
00:45:38,005 --> 00:45:42,005
Speaker 1: through a process and I will decide at the end

701
00:45:42,045 --> 00:45:47,245
Speaker 1: of that process whether you get what you want, and

702
00:45:47,925 --> 00:45:52,925
Speaker 1: you are like a prisoners Margie.

703
00:45:52,965 --> 00:45:55,325
Speaker 4: This has been so helpful, and so I know there

704
00:45:55,365 --> 00:45:57,325
Speaker 4: are going to be so many people listening to this

705
00:45:57,445 --> 00:46:01,405
Speaker 4: who are like, yes, I know a narcissist.

706
00:46:01,485 --> 00:46:03,685
Speaker 3: I live with a narcissist. I work with a narcissist.

707
00:46:04,325 --> 00:46:07,325
Speaker 4: Probably not that many people going, oh, I'm a narcissist.

708
00:46:07,405 --> 00:46:09,445
Speaker 3: Give them what we've discussed today.

709
00:46:10,045 --> 00:46:10,725
Speaker 1: Yeah, zero.

710
00:46:12,405 --> 00:46:15,565
Speaker 3: But that's just been really helpful. Thank you so much,

711
00:46:17,045 --> 00:46:18,005
Speaker 3: my pleasure.

712
00:46:23,165 --> 00:46:25,765
Speaker 4: So I've been thinking about that conversation a lot since

713
00:46:25,765 --> 00:46:27,925
Speaker 4: I spoke to Margie, because I think that until I

714
00:46:28,005 --> 00:46:30,365
Speaker 4: really talked to her, I didn't know exactly what a

715
00:46:30,445 --> 00:46:33,765
Speaker 4: narcissist was, even though I've heard about them a lot,

716
00:46:34,005 --> 00:46:36,845
Speaker 4: definitely been involved with a few myself, and I've even

717
00:46:36,845 --> 00:46:39,445
Speaker 4: written a book with one as the main character. But

718
00:46:39,645 --> 00:46:42,605
Speaker 4: now I really know what they are. And I hope

719
00:46:42,645 --> 00:46:45,085
Speaker 4: that if you see yourself in anything in this conversation,

720
00:46:45,725 --> 00:46:46,365
Speaker 4: it gave.

721
00:46:46,205 --> 00:46:48,965
Speaker 3: You some peace and some ideas that might help.

722
00:46:49,685 --> 00:46:51,885
Speaker 4: And if you're wondering what the difference is between a

723
00:46:51,965 --> 00:46:55,085
Speaker 4: narcissist and say, a psychopath or a sociopath or one

724
00:46:55,085 --> 00:46:55,765
Speaker 4: of those other.

725
00:46:55,725 --> 00:46:58,485
Speaker 3: Wonderful things, we have some great episodes for you.

726
00:46:58,925 --> 00:47:01,645
Speaker 4: One is with a woman named Patrick Gagnier who is

727
00:47:01,725 --> 00:47:05,445
Speaker 4: herself a sociopath and she talks very openly and honestly

728
00:47:05,565 --> 00:47:07,925
Speaker 4: about what that means for her as a wife and

729
00:47:07,965 --> 00:47:10,445
Speaker 4: a mom and as a human being in the world.

730
00:47:11,085 --> 00:47:13,245
Speaker 3: And David Gillespie wrote.

731
00:47:13,045 --> 00:47:16,445
Speaker 4: The book on Identifying and Dealing with Psychopaths at Home

732
00:47:16,485 --> 00:47:19,645
Speaker 4: and Work, and Mia interviewed him both. The links to

733
00:47:19,685 --> 00:47:22,605
Speaker 4: those shows are in the show notes right here. The

734
00:47:22,685 --> 00:47:25,205
Speaker 4: host and creator of No Filter is Mia Friedman. The

735
00:47:25,285 --> 00:47:29,285
Speaker 4: executive producer is Naima Brown. Audio and sound design has

736
00:47:29,285 --> 00:47:32,205
Speaker 4: been by Jacob Brown and I have been your guest host,

737
00:47:32,405 --> 00:47:33,285
Speaker 4: Holly Wainwright.

738
00:47:33,525 --> 00:47:34,445
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening,