1 00:00:11,149 --> 00:00:13,909 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,829 --> 00:00:18,349 Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:18,349 --> 00:00:20,069 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,269 --> 00:00:23,109 Speaker 1: Hello. I'm Stacy Hicks. I'm the editor of Mamma Mia 5 00:00:23,189 --> 00:00:25,629 Speaker 1: and I'm also the host of our new parenting podcast, 6 00:00:25,749 --> 00:00:29,149 Speaker 1: Parenting Out Loud. And this summer, we're curating your listening 7 00:00:29,149 --> 00:00:32,189 Speaker 1: with a healthy dose of culture savvy conversations that parents 8 00:00:32,309 --> 00:00:36,229 Speaker 1: actually want. This holiday season, We're bringing you unmissable episodes 9 00:00:36,349 --> 00:00:39,789 Speaker 1: right here into your podcast playlist. It's your summer listening sorted. 10 00:00:40,229 --> 00:00:42,109 Speaker 1: And if you're looking for more to listen to, every 11 00:00:42,189 --> 00:00:45,069 Speaker 1: Muma Mia podcast is curating some are listening right across 12 00:00:45,109 --> 00:00:48,909 Speaker 1: the network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews. 13 00:00:49,189 --> 00:00:51,629 Speaker 1: There's something for everyone. There's a link in the show notes. 14 00:00:58,909 --> 00:01:02,349 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to our limited series Parenting Out Loud. 15 00:01:02,549 --> 00:01:06,069 Speaker 2: I am Jessie Stevens. I am joined by Amelia Lester 16 00:01:06,189 --> 00:01:10,509 Speaker 2: Here Hello, and MoMA Maa's deputy editor, Stacey Hicks. 17 00:01:10,549 --> 00:01:10,829 Speaker 1: Hello. 18 00:01:11,109 --> 00:01:13,149 Speaker 2: We're here to talk about some of the stories that 19 00:01:13,189 --> 00:01:16,029 Speaker 2: dominated the week, because if parents are thinking about it, 20 00:01:16,189 --> 00:01:19,309 Speaker 2: we are talking about it on today's show. Do you 21 00:01:19,389 --> 00:01:22,629 Speaker 2: have a DFK that stands for a deeply feeling kid 22 00:01:22,909 --> 00:01:25,229 Speaker 2: and doctor Becky knows how to scot one, but is 23 00:01:25,269 --> 00:01:28,069 Speaker 2: there really any such thing? And the stunning decline of 24 00:01:28,069 --> 00:01:30,909 Speaker 2: the preference to have boys. Apparently girls are very much 25 00:01:30,949 --> 00:01:34,989 Speaker 2: on trend. Why plus are you and trampoline denial? We 26 00:01:35,109 --> 00:01:37,989 Speaker 2: read the most shocking article about trampolines and are desperate 27 00:01:38,269 --> 00:01:38,989 Speaker 2: to debrief. 28 00:01:39,469 --> 00:01:41,709 Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, one of the 29 00:01:41,789 --> 00:01:43,989 Speaker 1: biggest stories on Mama Mia this week was about a 30 00:01:43,989 --> 00:01:46,429 Speaker 1: woman who abandoned her family to live on her own 31 00:01:46,709 --> 00:01:49,269 Speaker 1: and now we're all a little bit jealous. In an 32 00:01:49,269 --> 00:01:52,269 Speaker 1: interview with Katie Powers, author and mother of two Monique 33 00:01:52,309 --> 00:01:55,829 Speaker 1: ben tolda spoke very candidly about the moment she was 34 00:01:55,829 --> 00:01:59,109 Speaker 1: staying at her family's home in North Queensland and just 35 00:01:59,189 --> 00:02:01,589 Speaker 1: decided to never go back to her life in New 36 00:02:01,629 --> 00:02:02,269 Speaker 1: South Wales. 37 00:02:02,469 --> 00:02:04,909 Speaker 2: I feel like a very relevant detail here was the 38 00:02:04,949 --> 00:02:07,269 Speaker 2: age of her children. That's what I scrolled to be, like, 39 00:02:07,349 --> 00:02:10,029 Speaker 2: how old are we're talking? Two and four? Are we talking? 40 00:02:10,509 --> 00:02:15,589 Speaker 1: When can I leave? She had two teenage sons, but 41 00:02:15,909 --> 00:02:18,349 Speaker 1: she said days turned into weeks and she just sent 42 00:02:18,429 --> 00:02:21,429 Speaker 1: her husband an email and said that's it. I'm done 43 00:02:21,429 --> 00:02:23,629 Speaker 1: with carrying the mental load I want to live on 44 00:02:23,669 --> 00:02:26,189 Speaker 1: my own. I'm not divorcing you. I just don't want 45 00:02:26,229 --> 00:02:27,829 Speaker 1: to live in the same house as you anymore. 46 00:02:28,669 --> 00:02:31,029 Speaker 3: See, I thought when I first read this and it 47 00:02:31,109 --> 00:02:35,469 Speaker 3: described the suns as growing, I sort of thought, this 48 00:02:35,509 --> 00:02:40,029 Speaker 3: is a semantics exercise. If she's leaving home, specifically leaving 49 00:02:40,029 --> 00:02:43,269 Speaker 3: her husband, and her children are largely looking out to themselves. 50 00:02:44,109 --> 00:02:46,229 Speaker 3: It's up to her whether or not she calls it divorce. 51 00:02:46,349 --> 00:02:48,869 Speaker 3: But it feels a little bit like she's separating from 52 00:02:48,909 --> 00:02:49,509 Speaker 3: her husband. 53 00:02:49,709 --> 00:02:52,109 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what she said. She said that he 54 00:02:52,229 --> 00:02:54,949 Speaker 1: was initially surprised and kind of making sure she hadn't 55 00:02:54,989 --> 00:02:57,829 Speaker 1: gone mad and had a breakdown or something more serious 56 00:02:57,829 --> 00:02:59,989 Speaker 1: had happened, but that he actually came around to it 57 00:03:00,069 --> 00:03:02,589 Speaker 1: and supported her and was like, that's okay. Well they 58 00:03:02,709 --> 00:03:05,349 Speaker 1: visit each other now regularly, so a couple of times 59 00:03:05,389 --> 00:03:07,709 Speaker 1: a year they'll go and see the other one and 60 00:03:07,749 --> 00:03:10,549 Speaker 1: they just say, the dynamic works. But she acknowledges, she said, 61 00:03:10,589 --> 00:03:12,749 Speaker 1: I know that this could not work for all people, 62 00:03:13,189 --> 00:03:16,029 Speaker 1: mostly because most people don't have two houses to go between. 63 00:03:17,229 --> 00:03:19,189 Speaker 1: We couldn't get very far. We chose to lead. 64 00:03:19,229 --> 00:03:20,189 Speaker 2: You don't have another bedroom. 65 00:03:20,309 --> 00:03:23,829 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly so she is doing this from a 66 00:03:24,029 --> 00:03:27,509 Speaker 1: very privileged position. But yeah, she said, people do say 67 00:03:27,549 --> 00:03:29,869 Speaker 1: is there adultery involved? Is there some reason? And she said, 68 00:03:29,869 --> 00:03:32,949 Speaker 1: I actually love him so much more now than when 69 00:03:32,989 --> 00:03:35,069 Speaker 1: we were living under the one roof, So that's why 70 00:03:35,149 --> 00:03:35,829 Speaker 1: they do it. 71 00:03:35,509 --> 00:03:39,949 Speaker 2: It's the most taboo thing a woman can do anytime. 72 00:03:40,109 --> 00:03:42,069 Speaker 2: I've read a few books recently that have this as 73 00:03:42,109 --> 00:03:44,789 Speaker 2: a theme, and it's like, when you're confronted with that, 74 00:03:44,949 --> 00:03:50,589 Speaker 2: readers get really triggered and just like the thought. I mean, 75 00:03:50,829 --> 00:03:52,629 Speaker 2: when a man does it, we're horrified, but when a 76 00:03:52,829 --> 00:03:56,749 Speaker 2: mother leaves her children or her husband, that's seen as 77 00:03:56,749 --> 00:04:00,149 Speaker 2: particularly kind of I don't know, it's subverting the maternal 78 00:04:00,269 --> 00:04:04,909 Speaker 2: nature of her role, But I think the interesting question 79 00:04:05,069 --> 00:04:08,229 Speaker 2: is like what leads to that, and also the amount 80 00:04:08,269 --> 00:04:11,749 Speaker 2: of people that clicked on it kind of going there's 81 00:04:11,789 --> 00:04:15,869 Speaker 2: some fascination with this decision. And clearly it was years 82 00:04:15,909 --> 00:04:18,469 Speaker 2: upon years of resentment of taking on the mental load 83 00:04:18,549 --> 00:04:21,509 Speaker 2: to such a point that it just overflows and you 84 00:04:21,509 --> 00:04:23,509 Speaker 2: you know, just can't do it any. 85 00:04:23,509 --> 00:04:25,029 Speaker 1: Yeah, she said, it just got to the point where 86 00:04:25,069 --> 00:04:27,269 Speaker 1: she couldn't not leave. She said it felt like that 87 00:04:27,349 --> 00:04:28,989 Speaker 1: was the only option and that she had to be 88 00:04:29,029 --> 00:04:32,389 Speaker 1: prepared for whatever his reaction was to that, but luckily 89 00:04:32,429 --> 00:04:34,589 Speaker 1: he was okay with it, so maybe he was feeling 90 00:04:34,629 --> 00:04:35,469 Speaker 1: the same way. 91 00:04:37,149 --> 00:04:40,669 Speaker 2: Do you have a deeply feeling kid? Are you a 92 00:04:40,749 --> 00:04:46,189 Speaker 2: deeply feeling kid? I am doctor very much. Doctor Becky 93 00:04:46,269 --> 00:04:49,269 Speaker 2: is a clinical psychologist and an icon for millennial parents, 94 00:04:49,389 --> 00:04:51,629 Speaker 2: and she published a video to her three point three 95 00:04:51,749 --> 00:04:54,189 Speaker 2: million followers recently, and here is what she said. 96 00:04:54,269 --> 00:04:55,909 Speaker 4: Right now, raise your hand. If you were told that 97 00:04:55,949 --> 00:04:58,509 Speaker 4: you were dramatic when you were a kid, raise your hand. 98 00:04:58,509 --> 00:04:59,949 Speaker 4: If you were told you're making a big deal out 99 00:04:59,949 --> 00:05:01,749 Speaker 4: of nothing, raise your hand. If you were told things 100 00:05:01,789 --> 00:05:03,749 Speaker 4: like you're ruining this for the family, I have news 101 00:05:03,789 --> 00:05:05,549 Speaker 4: for you. I have a feeling you are a deeply 102 00:05:05,549 --> 00:05:08,309 Speaker 4: feeling kid. I have a feeling you may have a 103 00:05:08,349 --> 00:05:12,189 Speaker 4: deeply feeling kid. Deeply kids are more porous to the world. 104 00:05:12,269 --> 00:05:14,949 Speaker 4: They truly do feel things more intensely. 105 00:05:15,469 --> 00:05:18,349 Speaker 1: More comes in and more comes. 106 00:05:18,029 --> 00:05:22,869 Speaker 4: Out, which yes, means very intense tantrums and escalations. Deeply 107 00:05:22,909 --> 00:05:26,829 Speaker 4: feeling kids sometimes experience their feelings as threats. It's like 108 00:05:26,869 --> 00:05:27,949 Speaker 4: they're being attacked. 109 00:05:28,069 --> 00:05:30,749 Speaker 2: I need initial reactions. What do you think do you 110 00:05:30,789 --> 00:05:32,629 Speaker 2: put much stock in a deeply feeling kid? 111 00:05:32,949 --> 00:05:35,109 Speaker 1: Am I allowed to say that I hate this? 112 00:05:35,709 --> 00:05:37,669 Speaker 2: Tell me why you hate it? 113 00:05:37,709 --> 00:05:41,509 Speaker 3: Isn't Doctor Becky just reminding us all of our subjectivity 114 00:05:41,509 --> 00:05:44,709 Speaker 3: as humans, that we all feel things, whether or not 115 00:05:44,749 --> 00:05:46,069 Speaker 3: we show it to the world or not. 116 00:05:46,709 --> 00:05:46,909 Speaker 1: Look. 117 00:05:46,989 --> 00:05:50,549 Speaker 3: I think doctor Becky's success boils down to the fact 118 00:05:50,629 --> 00:05:54,349 Speaker 3: that she has identified the fundamental truth that we need 119 00:05:54,389 --> 00:05:56,989 Speaker 3: to treat our kids like humans. And Okay, sometimes I 120 00:05:57,029 --> 00:05:58,029 Speaker 3: need a reminder of that. 121 00:05:58,069 --> 00:06:00,229 Speaker 2: Well, will co sign yes? 122 00:06:00,709 --> 00:06:04,189 Speaker 3: Right when I scream at my child, put your socks on, 123 00:06:04,229 --> 00:06:05,909 Speaker 3: go to the toilet and brush your teeth? Would I 124 00:06:05,949 --> 00:06:08,709 Speaker 3: say that to my partner? No, I probably wouldn't. 125 00:06:08,989 --> 00:06:11,629 Speaker 2: He will putt suck on a brush of paper most 126 00:06:11,709 --> 00:06:12,309 Speaker 2: of the time. 127 00:06:12,469 --> 00:06:16,989 Speaker 1: That's true, But that's I think why she's so loved. 128 00:06:17,109 --> 00:06:19,069 Speaker 1: And look, I don't want to. I don't want to 129 00:06:19,149 --> 00:06:20,029 Speaker 1: yuck anyone's um. 130 00:06:20,269 --> 00:06:23,029 Speaker 3: I know many people who say that doctor Becky has 131 00:06:23,069 --> 00:06:26,789 Speaker 3: really helped them break generational cycles of trauma, and I 132 00:06:26,829 --> 00:06:29,589 Speaker 3: really like how that she emphasizes you need to handle 133 00:06:29,589 --> 00:06:32,029 Speaker 3: your own feelings before dealing with your childs, and that 134 00:06:32,069 --> 00:06:36,189 Speaker 3: includes figuring out if you yourself or a DFK. But ultimately, 135 00:06:36,229 --> 00:06:39,789 Speaker 3: this clip just irritates me. Because she is selling your product, 136 00:06:40,469 --> 00:06:43,349 Speaker 3: and she is trying to come up with a label 137 00:06:43,709 --> 00:06:47,309 Speaker 3: that could conceivably be applied to just about everyone. 138 00:06:47,909 --> 00:06:48,629 Speaker 1: Am I wrong? That? 139 00:06:48,749 --> 00:06:52,109 Speaker 2: Okay, That's how I feel because when it's like highly 140 00:06:52,189 --> 00:06:55,229 Speaker 2: sensitive person or you'll often hear someone say I just 141 00:06:55,349 --> 00:06:58,189 Speaker 2: experience the world a little more deeply than I. I'm 142 00:06:58,189 --> 00:07:00,949 Speaker 2: an you know what I am. I'm an overthinker, And 143 00:07:00,989 --> 00:07:04,989 Speaker 2: it's like the no, No, you just have closer proximity 144 00:07:05,029 --> 00:07:07,269 Speaker 2: to your thoughts and your feelings than anyone else's. So 145 00:07:07,349 --> 00:07:09,909 Speaker 2: we imagine that our own inner world's are far more 146 00:07:09,949 --> 00:07:12,949 Speaker 2: complicated than anyone else's because I can't access yours. I'm 147 00:07:12,989 --> 00:07:15,109 Speaker 2: like Ameli, it's pretty simple. She's just here with a 148 00:07:15,149 --> 00:07:18,949 Speaker 2: smile on her face. Me very very complicated, Stacy, Do 149 00:07:18,989 --> 00:07:21,429 Speaker 2: you have any I feel agree? 150 00:07:21,589 --> 00:07:26,029 Speaker 1: I felt very seen and attacked in equal measure because 151 00:07:26,109 --> 00:07:28,989 Speaker 1: I am definitely a DFK. I am someone who will 152 00:07:28,989 --> 00:07:31,749 Speaker 1: cry when they see someone alone in a restaurant, despite 153 00:07:31,749 --> 00:07:34,269 Speaker 1: the fact that person is probably having a great time 154 00:07:34,389 --> 00:07:37,349 Speaker 1: alone in the restaurant. I project those feelings onto them. 155 00:07:37,389 --> 00:07:39,749 Speaker 1: I'm that person. But you have to say, pull yourself together. 156 00:07:39,869 --> 00:07:42,189 Speaker 1: You should not need to be upset by this so 157 00:07:42,509 --> 00:07:45,349 Speaker 1: I do think that my emotions are probably a bit 158 00:07:45,389 --> 00:07:47,829 Speaker 1: closer to the surface, I would say, than other people's, 159 00:07:47,989 --> 00:07:50,949 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that I feel more deeply than 160 00:07:50,989 --> 00:07:54,629 Speaker 1: another person. But I do feel conflicted because I have 161 00:07:54,709 --> 00:07:57,669 Speaker 1: to admit when I saw doctor Becky's videos and I 162 00:07:57,709 --> 00:08:00,709 Speaker 1: heard this label, it did kind of give me some 163 00:08:00,869 --> 00:08:03,229 Speaker 1: level of comfort to put a name to something I 164 00:08:03,269 --> 00:08:06,429 Speaker 1: feel like I'm a little bit different to other people with, 165 00:08:06,909 --> 00:08:10,269 Speaker 1: and also a term for something that I think my 166 00:08:10,349 --> 00:08:13,269 Speaker 1: child experiences. On the other hand, I don't want to 167 00:08:13,309 --> 00:08:16,189 Speaker 1: pigeonhole her as this particular type of person, and I 168 00:08:16,229 --> 00:08:20,749 Speaker 1: think that's where the danger comes with all the labels, if. 169 00:08:19,949 --> 00:08:23,749 Speaker 2: It lends herself to treating our child with like more empathy. 170 00:08:24,189 --> 00:08:26,309 Speaker 2: And I mean, I've got a two year old, where 171 00:08:26,309 --> 00:08:30,029 Speaker 2: you go. I don't know many even tempered two year 172 00:08:30,029 --> 00:08:31,909 Speaker 2: olds who are really good with their feelings and have 173 00:08:31,989 --> 00:08:35,189 Speaker 2: really quite muted feelings about yogurt. She has quite strong 174 00:08:35,189 --> 00:08:38,789 Speaker 2: feelings about yogurt. But in saying that, what I worry 175 00:08:38,829 --> 00:08:43,229 Speaker 2: about is the labeling. And I'm not talking about diagnoses necessarily, 176 00:08:43,309 --> 00:08:47,189 Speaker 2: but even I look at my daughter and the moment 177 00:08:47,229 --> 00:08:50,709 Speaker 2: I think she's shy, she does something that suggests maybe 178 00:08:50,709 --> 00:08:53,789 Speaker 2: she's not, Or the moment I think she's really gentle, 179 00:08:53,909 --> 00:08:57,269 Speaker 2: that's when she'll bite. You know, like, kids, by their 180 00:08:57,389 --> 00:09:00,469 Speaker 2: nature are in a process of evolution, and I worry 181 00:09:00,509 --> 00:09:05,349 Speaker 2: that by putting any kind of expectation or label on them, 182 00:09:05,909 --> 00:09:07,269 Speaker 2: it becomes self fulfilling. 183 00:09:07,669 --> 00:09:10,629 Speaker 3: Yes, I worry about the impact on kids. Worry about 184 00:09:10,669 --> 00:09:13,949 Speaker 3: the impact on parents as well. So, Okay, you've established 185 00:09:13,989 --> 00:09:16,789 Speaker 3: that your kid is deeply feeling. How does that flow 186 00:09:16,869 --> 00:09:19,589 Speaker 3: into how you treat them? I think what it leads 187 00:09:19,629 --> 00:09:22,629 Speaker 3: to is this idea that you have to prioritize their 188 00:09:22,669 --> 00:09:26,189 Speaker 3: feelings above your own or even above your own schedule. 189 00:09:26,629 --> 00:09:29,829 Speaker 3: So I found this CBC article that nicely summarized the 190 00:09:29,869 --> 00:09:32,069 Speaker 3: bad clash to doctor Becky and sort of gets it 191 00:09:32,149 --> 00:09:35,149 Speaker 3: where I'm at on this, which is gentle parenting too 192 00:09:35,309 --> 00:09:38,269 Speaker 3: rough on parents. Now, I should say that doctor Becky 193 00:09:38,349 --> 00:09:41,189 Speaker 3: is probably doesn't identify as a gentle parenting acolyte, but 194 00:09:41,229 --> 00:09:45,469 Speaker 3: she's definitely adjacent to it. And basically the idea is 195 00:09:45,469 --> 00:09:49,989 Speaker 3: that in in stressing the importance of acknowledging children's feelings 196 00:09:50,309 --> 00:09:53,869 Speaker 3: sometimes above all else, it makes it really hard for parents. 197 00:09:53,949 --> 00:09:57,269 Speaker 3: They constantly feel like they're falling behind, and sometimes you 198 00:09:57,309 --> 00:09:59,589 Speaker 3: do have to be the bad guy, and sometimes you 199 00:09:59,669 --> 00:10:01,469 Speaker 3: just don't have time for the feelings and you just 200 00:10:01,469 --> 00:10:02,389 Speaker 3: have to get out the door. 201 00:10:02,469 --> 00:10:05,029 Speaker 1: And so I worry about both the children's side of 202 00:10:05,069 --> 00:10:07,109 Speaker 1: it and the parents' side of it. When we're labeling 203 00:10:07,189 --> 00:10:09,909 Speaker 1: kids in this way and giving your child the label 204 00:10:09,909 --> 00:10:13,509 Speaker 1: of it DFK doesn't stop that behavior from occurring. Like 205 00:10:13,869 --> 00:10:15,669 Speaker 1: you can't just be in the shops going just look 206 00:10:15,669 --> 00:10:18,549 Speaker 1: away she's throwing products at you because she's a DFK. 207 00:10:19,109 --> 00:10:22,869 Speaker 1: It won't change what's going on. So having it is 208 00:10:22,909 --> 00:10:26,109 Speaker 1: not very useful. Yeah, So what I wonder why why 209 00:10:26,229 --> 00:10:29,069 Speaker 1: do people respond to this? Then? Why do you think 210 00:10:29,109 --> 00:10:33,109 Speaker 1: this thing too? Anytime on the site on Mamma Mia. 211 00:10:33,149 --> 00:10:35,549 Speaker 1: Anytime on Mamma Mia that we write about something that 212 00:10:35,709 --> 00:10:38,949 Speaker 1: is a term or a theory or gives a name 213 00:10:39,069 --> 00:10:41,709 Speaker 1: to something that's happening in the world, people love it, 214 00:10:41,789 --> 00:10:43,989 Speaker 1: like people will flock to that. And I think it's 215 00:10:44,149 --> 00:10:46,909 Speaker 1: just about kind of tying a neat little bow around 216 00:10:46,989 --> 00:10:48,589 Speaker 1: something that they may be grappling with. 217 00:10:48,909 --> 00:10:52,669 Speaker 2: Is it also confirming our sense that our child is unique, 218 00:10:52,869 --> 00:10:56,229 Speaker 2: which all our children are genuinely unique and are genuinely special, 219 00:10:56,709 --> 00:10:59,629 Speaker 2: But these titles suggest like there is something that you're 220 00:10:59,629 --> 00:11:04,309 Speaker 2: seeing in your kid that makes them different, because she's 221 00:11:04,349 --> 00:11:06,269 Speaker 2: not saying that all kids are DFK. She's saying that 222 00:11:06,309 --> 00:11:10,269 Speaker 2: only some are. And it also, I think then makes 223 00:11:10,349 --> 00:11:12,269 Speaker 2: us feel like, Okay, now that I have a DFK, 224 00:11:12,749 --> 00:11:15,069 Speaker 2: doctor Becky is going to teach me some strategies. And 225 00:11:15,109 --> 00:11:16,549 Speaker 2: I will give her a lot of credit in this 226 00:11:16,629 --> 00:11:19,989 Speaker 2: because she's really straightforward. And we've talked on the show 227 00:11:19,989 --> 00:11:22,629 Speaker 2: before about how for a lot of mums and dads, 228 00:11:22,669 --> 00:11:25,789 Speaker 2: they don't have a community that might teach them strategies, 229 00:11:25,989 --> 00:11:28,149 Speaker 2: Like I'm really close to my mum and she'll often 230 00:11:28,189 --> 00:11:30,269 Speaker 2: tell me something that will help with parenting, like I'm 231 00:11:30,269 --> 00:11:33,029 Speaker 2: doing this for the first time, and doctor Becky provides 232 00:11:33,029 --> 00:11:35,949 Speaker 2: that for people. She has something she talks about sturdy. 233 00:11:35,989 --> 00:11:36,589 Speaker 2: Have you heard this? 234 00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:37,549 Speaker 1: What does that man? 235 00:11:37,709 --> 00:11:39,869 Speaker 2: So she taught her big thing is like a parent 236 00:11:39,949 --> 00:11:45,309 Speaker 2: needs to be sturdy, not super authoritarian, not entirely gentle, 237 00:11:45,789 --> 00:11:50,189 Speaker 2: but sturdy suggests you're something that a child can lean on. 238 00:11:50,229 --> 00:11:52,389 Speaker 2: You know your values, you know what the limitations are, 239 00:11:52,429 --> 00:11:55,469 Speaker 2: you know the rules, but you're also there's some flexibility 240 00:11:55,589 --> 00:11:57,709 Speaker 2: in that. And I quite like there are a lot 241 00:11:57,789 --> 00:11:59,669 Speaker 2: that pops up from doctor Becky, and I'm like, yeah, 242 00:11:59,789 --> 00:12:01,949 Speaker 2: like that, I'll use it. But at the same time, 243 00:12:02,909 --> 00:12:05,189 Speaker 2: you're right, she's selling a course, she's selling a book, 244 00:12:05,349 --> 00:12:06,549 Speaker 2: she's selling her expertise. 245 00:12:06,789 --> 00:12:10,789 Speaker 3: And I also think she's kind of pathologizing parenting. Like 246 00:12:10,989 --> 00:12:14,989 Speaker 3: some sometime around the point at which parenting became a verb, 247 00:12:15,749 --> 00:12:18,349 Speaker 3: we decided that to be a parent meant you had 248 00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:21,509 Speaker 3: to absorb all the evidence and all the latest studies 249 00:12:21,549 --> 00:12:24,709 Speaker 3: and all the greatest thinkers on parenting. And I think 250 00:12:24,749 --> 00:12:26,669 Speaker 3: part of that I have a theory. I think part 251 00:12:26,669 --> 00:12:29,189 Speaker 3: of the reason why doctor Becky and others have such 252 00:12:29,229 --> 00:12:32,269 Speaker 3: slavish devotion online is because it's a bit of a 253 00:12:32,269 --> 00:12:35,029 Speaker 3: pendulum swing response to the style of parenting that a 254 00:12:35,029 --> 00:12:38,509 Speaker 3: lot of millennials grew up with. So, for instance, doctor 255 00:12:38,549 --> 00:12:41,509 Speaker 3: Becky says you should never do timeouts because they shame 256 00:12:41,549 --> 00:12:45,549 Speaker 3: the child, and this comes from her grounding in modern psychotherapy. 257 00:12:45,669 --> 00:12:50,189 Speaker 3: She's also a psychologist, so there's clearly some evidence to 258 00:12:50,309 --> 00:12:54,949 Speaker 3: back that. On the other hand, pediatricians advocate for timeouts. 259 00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:59,029 Speaker 3: Some American pediatricians, according to the American Academy Pediatrics, because 260 00:12:59,069 --> 00:13:02,629 Speaker 3: it has been shown to be effective in rewiring kids' behavior, 261 00:13:03,029 --> 00:13:05,429 Speaker 3: so different experts are going to come up with different 262 00:13:05,629 --> 00:13:09,669 Speaker 3: assessments for what the best cognitive approaches are. It's clear 263 00:13:09,709 --> 00:13:12,189 Speaker 3: why doctor to Becky doesn't like the timeouts. At the 264 00:13:12,189 --> 00:13:14,749 Speaker 3: same time, it can be a tool in the toolbox. 265 00:13:15,069 --> 00:13:17,669 Speaker 3: And for millennial parents, I think there's a sense of 266 00:13:17,789 --> 00:13:20,229 Speaker 3: we want to do better than our parents, we want 267 00:13:20,229 --> 00:13:21,869 Speaker 3: to correct their perceived failings. 268 00:13:21,909 --> 00:13:24,789 Speaker 1: But the truth is no one can be a perfect parent. 269 00:13:26,269 --> 00:13:28,869 Speaker 1: Have you ever watched a gender reveal video where the 270 00:13:28,909 --> 00:13:32,229 Speaker 1: parents are clearly trying to hide their disappointment, Well, it 271 00:13:32,309 --> 00:13:34,549 Speaker 1: was probably because they found out they were having a boy. 272 00:13:35,109 --> 00:13:37,269 Speaker 1: In a surprising turn of events, there is now an 273 00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:40,149 Speaker 1: increasing preference by parents to have little girls, when it 274 00:13:40,189 --> 00:13:42,589 Speaker 1: was once very much the opposite. An article in The 275 00:13:42,629 --> 00:13:45,709 Speaker 1: Economists this week showed this is a trend happening globally, 276 00:13:45,829 --> 00:13:48,989 Speaker 1: even in countries like China, where the now abolished one 277 00:13:49,069 --> 00:13:52,109 Speaker 1: child policy once meant that pregnancies resulting in girls were 278 00:13:52,149 --> 00:13:55,189 Speaker 1: routinely aborted in favor of boys who would carry on 279 00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:57,789 Speaker 1: the family line and look after parents in old age. 280 00:13:58,029 --> 00:14:01,189 Speaker 1: To put it into context, the article said, so globally, 281 00:14:01,349 --> 00:14:04,109 Speaker 1: among babies born in the year two thousand, one point 282 00:14:04,229 --> 00:14:07,309 Speaker 1: six million girls were missing from the number you'd expect 283 00:14:07,469 --> 00:14:11,149 Speaker 1: given the natural sex ratio birth. This year, that number 284 00:14:11,189 --> 00:14:13,629 Speaker 1: is likely to be only two hundred thousand, which is 285 00:14:13,669 --> 00:14:17,349 Speaker 1: still a lot, but it's falling. In America and Scandinavia, 286 00:14:17,469 --> 00:14:20,429 Speaker 1: families are now more likely to have another child if 287 00:14:20,469 --> 00:14:22,429 Speaker 1: their first child is a son in the hopes of 288 00:14:22,469 --> 00:14:25,669 Speaker 1: getting a girl, and seventy five percent of Japanese couples 289 00:14:25,669 --> 00:14:28,109 Speaker 1: who only want one child say they'd prefer it be 290 00:14:28,149 --> 00:14:31,149 Speaker 1: a daughter. They're also seeing it for adoptive parents. Some 291 00:14:31,229 --> 00:14:34,869 Speaker 1: agencies now charge higher fees for placing female children, as 292 00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:37,349 Speaker 1: the demand is so much higher. I think there's a 293 00:14:37,349 --> 00:14:40,309 Speaker 1: few reasons for this gradual about turn, so I'd love 294 00:14:40,349 --> 00:14:42,589 Speaker 1: to know why you think there's a sudden surge in 295 00:14:42,629 --> 00:14:43,229 Speaker 1: girl power. 296 00:14:43,549 --> 00:14:47,349 Speaker 2: I reckon there's a few things, right, because historically boys 297 00:14:47,429 --> 00:14:52,429 Speaker 2: have offered families an economic advantage, right, and with gender 298 00:14:52,469 --> 00:14:54,789 Speaker 2: equality and getting women in the workplace, that's meant that 299 00:14:55,149 --> 00:14:57,709 Speaker 2: what boys offer in that way, girls can now offer. 300 00:14:57,829 --> 00:14:57,989 Speaker 1: Right. 301 00:14:58,589 --> 00:15:01,709 Speaker 2: I think it's definitely an interesting point that the article 302 00:15:01,789 --> 00:15:05,869 Speaker 2: makes about people feeling as though a daughter will look 303 00:15:05,909 --> 00:15:09,749 Speaker 2: after them into old age. I've actually heard people say that, 304 00:15:10,709 --> 00:15:13,389 Speaker 2: but I'm gonna throw out a totally random theory that's 305 00:15:13,469 --> 00:15:16,269 Speaker 2: just mine. I wonder if there is more of a 306 00:15:16,309 --> 00:15:21,829 Speaker 2: focus on centering what the mother wants. Right, So we're 307 00:15:21,869 --> 00:15:25,029 Speaker 2: talking about things like gender disappointment, which we've never talked 308 00:15:25,029 --> 00:15:28,869 Speaker 2: about before because of you know, just the public conversation 309 00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:30,109 Speaker 2: going on to TikTok and Instagram. 310 00:15:30,149 --> 00:15:32,989 Speaker 1: I do want anyone personally who's experienced Yes. 311 00:15:33,229 --> 00:15:37,869 Speaker 2: So Kelly McCarran spoke really candidly about this after the 312 00:15:37,909 --> 00:15:39,989 Speaker 2: birth of her son, and I found it really refreshing. 313 00:15:40,029 --> 00:15:43,309 Speaker 2: I hadn't heard that term before. And you know, she 314 00:15:43,549 --> 00:15:45,429 Speaker 2: loves she's such a great mum. She loves her son 315 00:15:45,469 --> 00:15:48,429 Speaker 2: more than anything in the world. But her initial response was, oh, 316 00:15:48,429 --> 00:15:50,869 Speaker 2: I didn't realize how much I wanted a girl. And 317 00:15:51,149 --> 00:15:54,149 Speaker 2: I think that by centering mother's voices, we're probably hearing 318 00:15:54,189 --> 00:15:57,269 Speaker 2: that more. The question is why would a mother want 319 00:15:57,829 --> 00:16:00,509 Speaker 2: a daughter, ever a son? And I wonder if it's 320 00:16:00,789 --> 00:16:02,389 Speaker 2: we feel like we know what we're doing because we 321 00:16:02,389 --> 00:16:06,549 Speaker 2: were a daughter, and also some deeply psychological sense of 322 00:16:07,189 --> 00:16:10,349 Speaker 2: wanting to reparent ourselves, like I have this thing. I 323 00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:13,829 Speaker 2: wonder if I go, I want to re enter my 324 00:16:13,869 --> 00:16:15,829 Speaker 2: own childhood, and maybe I feel I can better do 325 00:16:15,949 --> 00:16:17,709 Speaker 2: that with a girl than a boy, which I don't 326 00:16:17,709 --> 00:16:20,589 Speaker 2: think is true, but it could just be what our 327 00:16:20,829 --> 00:16:21,509 Speaker 2: guts tell us. 328 00:16:21,549 --> 00:16:24,869 Speaker 3: What do you think, Amelia, Well, anecdotally, I will say 329 00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:27,869 Speaker 3: that in the New South Wales public school system which 330 00:16:27,949 --> 00:16:32,549 Speaker 3: I currently am experiencing, girls are very much the white whale. 331 00:16:32,669 --> 00:16:34,989 Speaker 3: It seems there are just not enough girls to go 332 00:16:35,029 --> 00:16:38,989 Speaker 3: around to sprinkle the fairy dust of good behavior across classes. 333 00:16:39,109 --> 00:16:42,869 Speaker 3: In public primary schools, they are better behaved. There are 334 00:16:42,909 --> 00:16:46,029 Speaker 3: also fewer of them than boys in public schools in 335 00:16:46,069 --> 00:16:48,589 Speaker 3: my experience, and I wonder if part of this is 336 00:16:48,669 --> 00:16:51,269 Speaker 3: because I certainly know women who have put their daughters 337 00:16:51,309 --> 00:16:55,029 Speaker 3: in single sex education from kindergarten, whereas I don't know 338 00:16:55,069 --> 00:16:58,429 Speaker 3: anyone who's chosen to do that with boys. Not to 339 00:16:58,469 --> 00:17:00,989 Speaker 3: say it doesn't happen, but it's because of that conventional 340 00:17:00,989 --> 00:17:04,629 Speaker 3: wisdom that girls have contagiously good behavior and that will 341 00:17:04,629 --> 00:17:07,749 Speaker 3: translate to boys as well. So there is this sense 342 00:17:07,829 --> 00:17:10,909 Speaker 3: now where to have girls in your child class, and 343 00:17:10,989 --> 00:17:12,989 Speaker 3: the more girls you have in your child's class, the 344 00:17:13,069 --> 00:17:15,709 Speaker 3: more valuable, because the class is likely to be better run, 345 00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:19,909 Speaker 3: less disrupted, less loud. It all makes me a bit sad. 346 00:17:19,989 --> 00:17:23,029 Speaker 3: To be honest, I have a boy and then a girl. 347 00:17:23,189 --> 00:17:26,149 Speaker 3: And when this happened, I have a friend who is 348 00:17:26,229 --> 00:17:27,309 Speaker 3: French who said to me. 349 00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:30,429 Speaker 1: Ah, laschois do rough. I said, what is that? 350 00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:33,629 Speaker 3: And she said, it's the choice of kings because going 351 00:17:33,669 --> 00:17:37,149 Speaker 3: back historically in France and in other monarchies around the world, 352 00:17:37,709 --> 00:17:40,949 Speaker 3: kings wanted a boy first to secure the lineage in 353 00:17:40,989 --> 00:17:44,269 Speaker 3: that very sexist way of monarchy's everywhere, and then a 354 00:17:44,309 --> 00:17:47,429 Speaker 3: girl because girls, you know, they dress more nicely and 355 00:17:47,549 --> 00:17:50,389 Speaker 3: the people love looking at their clothes, and that's what 356 00:17:50,509 --> 00:17:54,109 Speaker 3: royal families wanted. And I guess it's understandable that as 357 00:17:54,189 --> 00:17:58,469 Speaker 3: women are delaying childbirth and as people are having fewer kids, 358 00:17:58,509 --> 00:18:02,749 Speaker 3: particularly in rich countries, it's not surprising that they want 359 00:18:03,069 --> 00:18:06,309 Speaker 3: the choice that is considered easier, because we do consider 360 00:18:06,389 --> 00:18:10,029 Speaker 3: girls to be easier for all those reasons. It's still 361 00:18:10,109 --> 00:18:12,469 Speaker 3: it makes me sad, though, and I wonder if part 362 00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:15,669 Speaker 3: of it is that we can see that the boys 363 00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:18,029 Speaker 3: are not okay. They are behind in school, they are 364 00:18:18,029 --> 00:18:22,229 Speaker 3: behind in life. We see TV shows and movies about 365 00:18:22,269 --> 00:18:25,669 Speaker 3: in cell culture, it's the men are not okay. And 366 00:18:26,149 --> 00:18:28,509 Speaker 3: I feel like we're making choices based on what we 367 00:18:28,629 --> 00:18:32,229 Speaker 3: think boys and girls are rather than what they are 368 00:18:32,309 --> 00:18:34,949 Speaker 3: capable of or what they could be, which, after all. 369 00:18:34,829 --> 00:18:36,109 Speaker 1: Isn't that the point of parenting? 370 00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:38,709 Speaker 2: I know, I thought that after adolescence. I thought, I 371 00:18:38,709 --> 00:18:40,309 Speaker 2: don't think a lot of people are watching that show 372 00:18:40,389 --> 00:18:42,549 Speaker 2: going I can't wait to parent a teenage boy, Like 373 00:18:42,629 --> 00:18:45,789 Speaker 2: it feels terrifying in a lot of ways. How about you, Stacy, 374 00:18:45,789 --> 00:18:46,829 Speaker 2: what do you think is behind it? 375 00:18:46,949 --> 00:18:49,909 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's an assumed closeness between a daughter 376 00:18:49,949 --> 00:18:52,669 Speaker 1: and their mother, which is not necessarily the case. It's 377 00:18:52,709 --> 00:18:55,949 Speaker 1: a sweeping generalization, but I think for women, when you 378 00:18:55,989 --> 00:18:57,989 Speaker 1: are thinking about the fact that, especially if you're having 379 00:18:58,069 --> 00:19:00,869 Speaker 1: children later that you may only have one child, or 380 00:19:00,909 --> 00:19:03,989 Speaker 1: you're making that decision that you're definitely only having one child, 381 00:19:04,149 --> 00:19:06,309 Speaker 1: that you go, well, I'm familiar with that, Like, I 382 00:19:06,429 --> 00:19:09,069 Speaker 1: know what to do there. I'll be the mother's side 383 00:19:09,109 --> 00:19:11,709 Speaker 1: for when the grandchildren and come. I'll be the mother's 384 00:19:11,749 --> 00:19:14,109 Speaker 1: side for the wedding. Like I feel like a mother 385 00:19:14,189 --> 00:19:17,229 Speaker 1: and a daughter being close. Everyone goes, oh, isn't that sweet? 386 00:19:17,309 --> 00:19:19,269 Speaker 1: A mother and a son are close, And it's Mormon 387 00:19:19,309 --> 00:19:22,309 Speaker 1: baits and psycho. That's so true. That's so true. It's 388 00:19:22,349 --> 00:19:24,909 Speaker 1: seen as toxic somehow if a mother is super close 389 00:19:24,949 --> 00:19:27,429 Speaker 1: with their son. So I think I think maybe that's 390 00:19:27,469 --> 00:19:31,069 Speaker 1: part of it. An article this week rocked my world, 391 00:19:31,229 --> 00:19:34,989 Speaker 1: turn me upside down, potentially cause some bones to break. 392 00:19:35,069 --> 00:19:39,149 Speaker 1: Let me explain. It was called are You in Trampoline Denial? 393 00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:43,349 Speaker 1: And it was from the cut. Like the author, Katie Arnold. 394 00:19:43,069 --> 00:19:46,909 Speaker 3: Ratliffe, I have long heard rumors that trampolines are in 395 00:19:46,949 --> 00:19:49,629 Speaker 3: fact incredibly dangerous. I am rolling my eyes as I 396 00:19:49,709 --> 00:19:52,909 Speaker 3: say this. For many years now, the American Academy of 397 00:19:52,949 --> 00:19:55,869 Speaker 3: Pediatrics has said that no trampoline is safe for children 398 00:19:55,989 --> 00:19:59,509 Speaker 3: under six, and that no trampoline outside a gymnastics program 399 00:19:59,589 --> 00:20:01,109 Speaker 3: is safe for children over six. 400 00:20:01,589 --> 00:20:03,469 Speaker 1: But again, I had rolled my eyes at this. I 401 00:20:03,509 --> 00:20:06,629 Speaker 1: had silently judged those pediatricians as kill joys. And I 402 00:20:06,709 --> 00:20:09,669 Speaker 1: held my child's fifth birthday party at a trampoline park. 403 00:20:10,229 --> 00:20:12,069 Speaker 2: One come or were there some who protested? 404 00:20:12,349 --> 00:20:16,109 Speaker 1: No? Everyone can They did a thing about trampoline parks 405 00:20:16,109 --> 00:20:18,949 Speaker 1: and five year old boys. Say what you will about boys. 406 00:20:19,109 --> 00:20:22,549 Speaker 3: They need to burn up some energy, and that's what 407 00:20:22,669 --> 00:20:25,709 Speaker 3: trampoline parks are for. However, I can no longer dismiss 408 00:20:25,749 --> 00:20:30,349 Speaker 3: the rumors because this piece had some absolutely horrifying statistics 409 00:20:30,349 --> 00:20:33,349 Speaker 3: in them. I'm going to share three. First statistic, an 410 00:20:33,429 --> 00:20:36,989 Speaker 3: estimated three hundred thousand trampoline injuries a year occur in 411 00:20:37,029 --> 00:20:37,869 Speaker 3: the United States. 412 00:20:38,429 --> 00:20:39,029 Speaker 1: That's so many. 413 00:20:39,069 --> 00:20:44,669 Speaker 3: Statistic two twenty percent of those involve head injuries, including concussions. 414 00:20:45,469 --> 00:20:50,669 Speaker 3: Statistic three eleven percent of injuries at trampoline parks are significant. 415 00:20:50,789 --> 00:20:53,309 Speaker 3: And you know when doctors use the term significant, they're 416 00:20:53,349 --> 00:20:56,109 Speaker 3: actually they actually mean significant, as opposed to when I 417 00:20:56,229 --> 00:20:59,869 Speaker 3: use the term significant when I can't decide what decision about. 418 00:20:59,589 --> 00:21:02,189 Speaker 1: What to eat for lunch. So this is major. And 419 00:21:02,229 --> 00:21:04,429 Speaker 1: then also the waiver you sign, which I'm sure none 420 00:21:04,469 --> 00:21:06,429 Speaker 1: of us have read because it's a PDF and it 421 00:21:06,509 --> 00:21:09,309 Speaker 1: goes on for many, many pages. Turns out that waiver 422 00:21:09,429 --> 00:21:12,589 Speaker 1: basically the way your and your child's life should anything 423 00:21:12,749 --> 00:21:16,869 Speaker 1: terrible happen at the trampoline park. So where does this 424 00:21:16,989 --> 00:21:18,949 Speaker 1: leave this? And what am I meant to do with 425 00:21:18,989 --> 00:21:21,869 Speaker 1: my children on rainy winter days to stop them from 426 00:21:21,949 --> 00:21:25,069 Speaker 1: climbing all over my furniture? Are we all just kill joys? 427 00:21:25,109 --> 00:21:25,309 Speaker 4: Now? 428 00:21:25,429 --> 00:21:27,269 Speaker 1: Give me a permission to believe this, Jesse. 429 00:21:27,909 --> 00:21:32,389 Speaker 2: Look, I I think there's an element of killed joy 430 00:21:32,429 --> 00:21:35,269 Speaker 2: to it. Because I went all right, following this. Firstly, 431 00:21:35,309 --> 00:21:39,509 Speaker 2: this article was incredibly persuasive. I read this and it 432 00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:44,189 Speaker 2: talked about the trampoline fracture, like the particular break double bounce, 433 00:21:44,349 --> 00:21:45,629 Speaker 2: the double bouncey, and. 434 00:21:46,029 --> 00:21:49,309 Speaker 1: We explain the double bounce. So the you go, Jessie, no, no, 435 00:21:49,389 --> 00:21:52,869 Speaker 1: you expected the double bounce is when someone's legs are 436 00:21:52,909 --> 00:21:56,149 Speaker 1: already coming down straight and then another person bounces and 437 00:21:56,189 --> 00:21:59,629 Speaker 1: it makes their legs compound and cause a fracture. 438 00:21:59,869 --> 00:22:02,309 Speaker 2: And the break is exactly the break I had, so 439 00:22:02,349 --> 00:22:03,869 Speaker 2: I know how bad it is. It's the break of 440 00:22:03,869 --> 00:22:06,589 Speaker 2: the tibia and you actually hear a pop is and 441 00:22:06,629 --> 00:22:08,509 Speaker 2: you need surgery and stuff like. And for kids to 442 00:22:08,509 --> 00:22:10,949 Speaker 2: get the break is even worse than adults because something 443 00:22:10,949 --> 00:22:14,069 Speaker 2: about growth plates and like growth plan growth plates. You 444 00:22:14,069 --> 00:22:15,829 Speaker 2: don't want to hear growth plates, you don't. 445 00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:17,149 Speaker 1: You don't want to hear growth plays. 446 00:22:17,189 --> 00:22:18,869 Speaker 2: I'm like, I thought it was just a cheeky little 447 00:22:18,869 --> 00:22:21,869 Speaker 2: broken wrist, but no, that one, no no fun. So 448 00:22:21,949 --> 00:22:24,109 Speaker 2: I read it and went, no, this is really bad. Okay, okay, 449 00:22:24,189 --> 00:22:26,549 Speaker 2: no trampoline. But then I thought, where do we drop 450 00:22:26,589 --> 00:22:30,949 Speaker 2: the line, because what are kids do outside trampolines scooters? Well, 451 00:22:31,549 --> 00:22:33,469 Speaker 2: my sister broke a wrist on a scooter bike. 452 00:22:33,669 --> 00:22:35,069 Speaker 1: There's way more dangerous. 453 00:22:35,109 --> 00:22:37,269 Speaker 2: Sure surely, surely skateboarding. 454 00:22:37,389 --> 00:22:41,389 Speaker 3: Also, how do we balance this against what Jonathan yeah 455 00:22:41,669 --> 00:22:44,549 Speaker 3: telling us about how the online world is so much 456 00:22:44,589 --> 00:22:46,269 Speaker 3: more dangerous than the offline world. 457 00:22:46,469 --> 00:22:48,349 Speaker 1: Was he not talking about trampoline parks? 458 00:22:48,349 --> 00:22:50,989 Speaker 2: Th exactly? And this is the thing is it's like, okay, 459 00:22:50,989 --> 00:22:53,349 Speaker 2: so we take them out of the skateboarding parks. I 460 00:22:53,429 --> 00:22:54,989 Speaker 2: know you should never go to the beach, don't go 461 00:22:55,149 --> 00:22:58,629 Speaker 2: near a body of water. No roller skating, jumping castles, 462 00:22:58,669 --> 00:22:59,109 Speaker 2: rock climb. 463 00:22:59,189 --> 00:23:01,229 Speaker 1: I forget the screen, any sport. 464 00:23:01,469 --> 00:23:03,829 Speaker 2: No screen is like they. 465 00:23:03,469 --> 00:23:05,869 Speaker 1: Meant to be doing with their time. Don't say, read 466 00:23:05,909 --> 00:23:06,309 Speaker 1: a book. 467 00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:08,109 Speaker 2: I don't want to read a book. 468 00:23:08,349 --> 00:23:09,749 Speaker 1: Don't want what do you do? 469 00:23:09,869 --> 00:23:13,309 Speaker 2: And to your point, Amelia, like the reason trampoline parks 470 00:23:13,309 --> 00:23:15,269 Speaker 2: are so popular is because what are we to do 471 00:23:15,309 --> 00:23:17,389 Speaker 2: on a rainy day? Tell me what we are to 472 00:23:17,389 --> 00:23:19,749 Speaker 2: do other than turn the television on. So I think 473 00:23:19,789 --> 00:23:22,509 Speaker 2: it's like that there is an element of risk with 474 00:23:22,709 --> 00:23:26,709 Speaker 2: any physical play. But if we want children and adults 475 00:23:26,709 --> 00:23:29,029 Speaker 2: and human beings to be physically active and engage in 476 00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:31,789 Speaker 2: the world, then every now and then we're going to 477 00:23:31,829 --> 00:23:33,749 Speaker 2: break a bone. That's a very unpopular thing act. 478 00:23:33,989 --> 00:23:36,109 Speaker 1: But I would argue that this is more low risk 479 00:23:36,189 --> 00:23:38,509 Speaker 1: than them going down those burning hot slides in the 480 00:23:38,509 --> 00:23:40,869 Speaker 1: middle of summer, oh where they could end up with 481 00:23:41,029 --> 00:23:42,189 Speaker 1: rashes down their leg. 482 00:23:42,389 --> 00:23:46,589 Speaker 3: This is interesting, Stacy. You have just hit my third rail, 483 00:23:46,749 --> 00:23:50,189 Speaker 3: which is playgrounds. Yes, because we're in this funny limbo 484 00:23:50,309 --> 00:23:52,789 Speaker 3: lane right now. Because risk taking is seen as desirable 485 00:23:52,829 --> 00:23:55,749 Speaker 3: for kids, we all want to raise risk takers, and 486 00:23:55,829 --> 00:23:58,709 Speaker 3: yet we don't actually want our children to take any risks. 487 00:23:58,829 --> 00:24:02,469 Speaker 3: And these contradictions played out in a very interesting situation 488 00:24:02,589 --> 00:24:06,029 Speaker 3: for me. Recently, I went to a playground in Bury 489 00:24:06,109 --> 00:24:09,269 Speaker 3: in New South Wales, which the Daily Mail has described 490 00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:12,709 Speaker 3: as Australia's dangerous playground. So naturally I read that and 491 00:24:12,749 --> 00:24:13,669 Speaker 3: I had to go there. 492 00:24:13,829 --> 00:24:16,309 Speaker 2: Your son saw it and was like take me there immediately. 493 00:24:16,589 --> 00:24:19,469 Speaker 1: He's a risk taker, aren't I a good parent? Doctor Becky. 494 00:24:19,949 --> 00:24:23,589 Speaker 3: At least thirty parents have reported broken bones, fractures, burns 495 00:24:23,989 --> 00:24:26,869 Speaker 3: and other serious injuries to kids at that playground. I 496 00:24:26,909 --> 00:24:29,229 Speaker 3: don't quite understand the burns. I don't want to know. 497 00:24:29,629 --> 00:24:32,469 Speaker 3: But this playground is actually the vanguard of this new 498 00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:35,749 Speaker 3: style of playground which does experiment with risk taking. So 499 00:24:35,789 --> 00:24:38,309 Speaker 3: it's got a faster flying fox, it's got a higher 500 00:24:38,349 --> 00:24:41,229 Speaker 3: piece of climbing equipment, it's got a bizarre giant beer 501 00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:42,989 Speaker 3: barrel that your children roll around in. 502 00:24:43,389 --> 00:24:44,549 Speaker 1: There's no beer, don't worry. 503 00:24:45,109 --> 00:24:48,029 Speaker 3: But what I found interesting there there were these signs 504 00:24:48,109 --> 00:24:50,189 Speaker 3: that said that you were not allowed to help your 505 00:24:50,269 --> 00:24:52,629 Speaker 3: children on the play equipment. It said, your children know 506 00:24:52,709 --> 00:24:55,469 Speaker 3: their own limits and they will play safely within them. 507 00:24:55,549 --> 00:24:57,269 Speaker 1: The minute you were helping a child. 508 00:24:57,149 --> 00:24:59,949 Speaker 3: Climb up to the next level of a climbing structure, 509 00:25:00,349 --> 00:25:02,349 Speaker 3: you are putting them in danger. You're putting them in 510 00:25:02,349 --> 00:25:05,709 Speaker 3: a potentially unsafe situation because you're pushing them beyond their limits. 511 00:25:06,349 --> 00:25:08,229 Speaker 1: What does this all add up to. How do we 512 00:25:08,269 --> 00:25:09,789 Speaker 1: figure out the right amount of risk? 513 00:25:10,229 --> 00:25:12,749 Speaker 2: That's fascinating because I think people do do that and 514 00:25:12,789 --> 00:25:16,349 Speaker 2: don't realize that the hovering and the not allowing the 515 00:25:16,389 --> 00:25:18,669 Speaker 2: confidence to grow and that kind of thing can actually 516 00:25:18,909 --> 00:25:22,429 Speaker 2: cause harm. And you point to as well the revolution 517 00:25:22,509 --> 00:25:25,149 Speaker 2: in kids playgrounds, which is I remember when I was 518 00:25:25,189 --> 00:25:27,149 Speaker 2: at school, a girl fell off the monkey bars and 519 00:25:27,469 --> 00:25:30,109 Speaker 2: there was a something was hanging out when she did it, 520 00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:34,229 Speaker 2: and like elbow through arm, like horrific break now you 521 00:25:34,269 --> 00:25:36,909 Speaker 2: looked at that equipment and went, that is actually avoidable, 522 00:25:37,109 --> 00:25:40,269 Speaker 2: Like there are such regulations, which is really really positive 523 00:25:40,309 --> 00:25:43,149 Speaker 2: from the floor being a little bit more bouncy and 524 00:25:43,509 --> 00:25:45,349 Speaker 2: not being so high and all that kind of stuff. 525 00:25:45,389 --> 00:25:49,349 Speaker 2: That's great, But I still think that we've got to 526 00:25:49,429 --> 00:25:52,709 Speaker 2: accept that our kids are gonna get hurt sometimes. And 527 00:25:53,149 --> 00:25:56,829 Speaker 2: with this too, I found the point pertinent that it 528 00:25:56,909 --> 00:25:59,389 Speaker 2: is far less risky to jump on a home trampoline 529 00:25:59,629 --> 00:26:01,589 Speaker 2: than in a trampoline park. So the issue in your 530 00:26:01,589 --> 00:26:04,989 Speaker 2: trampoline park is that it's often the little kids that 531 00:26:05,069 --> 00:26:07,189 Speaker 2: the smaller kids that get hurt by the bigger kids 532 00:26:07,229 --> 00:26:10,989 Speaker 2: who jabble, bounce them or land on them. And there 533 00:26:10,989 --> 00:26:12,509 Speaker 2: are no springs, so you think it would be fine. 534 00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:15,709 Speaker 2: That's not what's hurting them. That's you know, spinal injuries 535 00:26:15,749 --> 00:26:18,869 Speaker 2: or the crap that you hear way safer on a trampoline. 536 00:26:18,869 --> 00:26:21,429 Speaker 3: All the springs at home, I have to add, are 537 00:26:21,509 --> 00:26:25,349 Speaker 3: hurting them. The Nutritions wanted me to make that clear. 538 00:26:25,709 --> 00:26:27,989 Speaker 1: Mine at Hope is like a padded cell. I love 539 00:26:28,069 --> 00:26:30,509 Speaker 1: sending my daughter out on her trail having one with 540 00:26:30,549 --> 00:26:33,229 Speaker 1: the big netting. Oh yeah, big netting. But I was 541 00:26:33,269 --> 00:26:35,869 Speaker 1: actually hoping that this was going to catch on because 542 00:26:36,269 --> 00:26:38,109 Speaker 1: my pelvic floor is not what it used to be 543 00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:40,189 Speaker 1: and my daughter wants me on the trampline with her 544 00:26:40,229 --> 00:26:42,469 Speaker 1: a lot, so I was happy to be discouraged from 545 00:26:42,509 --> 00:26:44,589 Speaker 1: getting on there for safety reasons. 546 00:26:44,629 --> 00:26:46,269 Speaker 2: And of course, what you have to tell your daughter 547 00:26:46,629 --> 00:26:49,429 Speaker 2: is I've read the safety research because I'm such good mother, 548 00:26:49,749 --> 00:26:51,869 Speaker 2: and you should only have one person at a time. 549 00:26:51,949 --> 00:26:54,229 Speaker 2: That's true, because that's when we get dangerous, So Mummy's 550 00:26:54,269 --> 00:26:55,869 Speaker 2: gonna scroll on her phone. 551 00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:58,589 Speaker 1: Way. 552 00:26:59,549 --> 00:27:03,389 Speaker 2: It is time for our recommendations of the week, Stacy, 553 00:27:03,429 --> 00:27:04,189 Speaker 2: I want you to go first. 554 00:27:04,189 --> 00:27:06,629 Speaker 1: What have you got for kay Mine? This week? Is 555 00:27:06,709 --> 00:27:09,909 Speaker 1: very random. It's a recipe except it doesn't really exist. 556 00:27:11,189 --> 00:27:14,829 Speaker 1: I'm a terrible cook, but making this for dinner always 557 00:27:14,829 --> 00:27:16,669 Speaker 1: makes me look like I'm great, and I will bring 558 00:27:16,669 --> 00:27:19,029 Speaker 1: it in here for leftovers at least once a week, 559 00:27:19,069 --> 00:27:21,429 Speaker 1: and everyone thinks I'm really fancy. Everyone asked me to 560 00:27:21,469 --> 00:27:23,829 Speaker 1: tell them what it is, and it's so basic that 561 00:27:23,909 --> 00:27:25,469 Speaker 1: I don't even need to write it down for you 562 00:27:25,549 --> 00:27:27,389 Speaker 1: or send you a link because I can just tell 563 00:27:27,429 --> 00:27:31,309 Speaker 1: you in one sentence. So it's just lamb mince instead 564 00:27:31,349 --> 00:27:34,429 Speaker 1: of beef mince, and I just do cumin, paprika and 565 00:27:34,509 --> 00:27:37,269 Speaker 1: cinnamon and tomato paste. You don't need measurements. 566 00:27:37,349 --> 00:27:38,589 Speaker 2: That's in my cupboard right now. 567 00:27:38,669 --> 00:27:41,029 Speaker 1: They coat, I could do that. Just go off vibes, 568 00:27:41,229 --> 00:27:43,069 Speaker 1: Just whack it all in till it looks right to you. 569 00:27:43,109 --> 00:27:45,589 Speaker 1: Salt and pepper if you wish, don't go crazy. And 570 00:27:45,629 --> 00:27:48,229 Speaker 1: then I just cook zucchinis and potatoes in the air 571 00:27:48,309 --> 00:27:51,589 Speaker 1: fryer and whack it on top with how am I 572 00:27:51,629 --> 00:27:54,389 Speaker 1: cooking the lamb itself? Just in a fry pan? Okay, 573 00:27:54,749 --> 00:28:01,229 Speaker 1: chuck one of those who does need step by, I 574 00:28:01,269 --> 00:28:05,789 Speaker 1: will write it and I just put taziki on the 575 00:28:05,789 --> 00:28:09,109 Speaker 1: top and it's delicious, last for days, and you look 576 00:28:09,229 --> 00:28:12,309 Speaker 1: really talented when I would eat that. It's very good. 577 00:28:12,349 --> 00:28:14,349 Speaker 1: And my daughter actually does eat it, and she can 578 00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:16,309 Speaker 1: be a bit peach pretty good eater, but she can 579 00:28:16,309 --> 00:28:18,469 Speaker 1: be a bit piggy. But it's kind of mild enough 580 00:28:18,509 --> 00:28:20,149 Speaker 1: that most kids, I think would eat it. 581 00:28:20,509 --> 00:28:22,429 Speaker 2: I have a confession, which is that my nearly two 582 00:28:22,469 --> 00:28:25,189 Speaker 2: year old has never eaten meat, not for a preference. 583 00:28:25,309 --> 00:28:27,749 Speaker 2: She will not put meat in her mouth. And it 584 00:28:27,749 --> 00:28:32,429 Speaker 2: has been my goal to try and get something because. 585 00:28:32,229 --> 00:28:34,509 Speaker 1: This is it. Cinnamon makes it taste like dessert. 586 00:28:35,229 --> 00:28:37,709 Speaker 2: Cinnamon's always That's what I do with the veggies. I 587 00:28:37,749 --> 00:28:39,669 Speaker 2: think that I could get some lamb into her that way. 588 00:28:39,709 --> 00:28:41,429 Speaker 2: I'm going to try it. How about your Amelia? 589 00:28:42,029 --> 00:28:42,429 Speaker 1: Okay? 590 00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:45,549 Speaker 3: Mine is an attempt to answer the question that has 591 00:28:45,589 --> 00:28:47,949 Speaker 3: been running through this show, which is if our children 592 00:28:47,989 --> 00:28:50,189 Speaker 3: are not allowed on the screens and they're not allowed 593 00:28:50,189 --> 00:28:54,229 Speaker 3: on the trampolines and the dfks who need to keep 594 00:28:54,269 --> 00:28:57,109 Speaker 3: their hands busy, I have a potential answer for you. 595 00:28:58,109 --> 00:29:02,389 Speaker 3: I was recently in a children's museum in San Francisco, 596 00:29:02,789 --> 00:29:06,909 Speaker 3: which I know sounds very fan but as listeners will 597 00:29:06,909 --> 00:29:10,069 Speaker 3: be aware, when you travel with children, all you do 598 00:29:10,229 --> 00:29:11,829 Speaker 3: when you go to a new place is you type 599 00:29:11,829 --> 00:29:15,229 Speaker 3: playgrounds or children's museum into Google Maps, and then you 600 00:29:15,389 --> 00:29:17,509 Speaker 3: end up going there every single day of your holiday, 601 00:29:17,549 --> 00:29:18,949 Speaker 3: which is precisely. 602 00:29:18,429 --> 00:29:20,589 Speaker 1: What we did. We went to the children's museum and 603 00:29:20,629 --> 00:29:23,309 Speaker 1: they had a brilliant thing there that took me immediately back. 604 00:29:23,349 --> 00:29:25,669 Speaker 1: You know when you see something that just immediately gives 605 00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:27,909 Speaker 1: you a flashback to your childhood. I love that when 606 00:29:27,909 --> 00:29:31,629 Speaker 1: that happens. It was a spirograph, So this was the 607 00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:33,989 Speaker 1: things that looked like tongs swiler around. 608 00:29:34,189 --> 00:29:36,309 Speaker 2: Yes, I need a visual of this. I'm going to 609 00:29:36,349 --> 00:29:40,469 Speaker 2: questacon Jesse, did I go to Idea? 610 00:29:40,949 --> 00:29:43,309 Speaker 3: This is a device straight out of the eighties. It's 611 00:29:43,349 --> 00:29:46,429 Speaker 3: not even the nineties. I think this was nineteen eighties technology. 612 00:29:46,549 --> 00:29:49,949 Speaker 3: Like we're talking Alan Bond, We're talking Australia winning the 613 00:29:50,749 --> 00:29:53,869 Speaker 3: America's Cup. Is this is what we're talking about here. 614 00:29:53,949 --> 00:29:56,469 Speaker 3: But it was cutting edge at the time. 615 00:29:56,589 --> 00:29:59,429 Speaker 1: And basically what it was was two pieces of plastics 616 00:29:59,469 --> 00:30:01,949 Speaker 1: in a circle shape and you put one circle inside 617 00:30:01,989 --> 00:30:04,949 Speaker 1: the other, and the circles have rings with teeth, and 618 00:30:04,989 --> 00:30:08,469 Speaker 1: then you use the rings to create the most perfect 619 00:30:08,509 --> 00:30:14,469 Speaker 1: geometric shapes. So basically you can create these utterly mesmerizing, 620 00:30:14,949 --> 00:30:20,229 Speaker 1: almost trippy patterns with the different spirographs. And I, of 621 00:30:20,269 --> 00:30:23,069 Speaker 1: course leapt on this at the Children's Museum, and being 622 00:30:23,069 --> 00:30:25,189 Speaker 1: a DFK, did not want to leave when I was 623 00:30:25,189 --> 00:30:27,749 Speaker 1: told by other members of my party that we needed 624 00:30:27,749 --> 00:30:30,429 Speaker 1: to go to another room. And then I promptly bought 625 00:30:30,469 --> 00:30:34,589 Speaker 1: a travel tin. Very cute. You can very easily travel 626 00:30:34,589 --> 00:30:36,029 Speaker 1: with it, as the name suggests. Take it to a 627 00:30:36,069 --> 00:30:38,789 Speaker 1: restaurant and it's just a little tin with the spirographs 628 00:30:38,789 --> 00:30:41,709 Speaker 1: and it takes some paper. Just use a regular pen 629 00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:46,069 Speaker 1: or a pencil, and you will find it very soothing. 630 00:30:46,229 --> 00:30:50,229 Speaker 1: I guarantee it's almost meditative to create these geometric shapes 631 00:30:50,269 --> 00:30:53,429 Speaker 1: and then hopefully one day, fingers crassed your children will 632 00:30:53,429 --> 00:30:54,949 Speaker 1: find them soothing as well. 633 00:30:55,589 --> 00:30:58,509 Speaker 2: I have gotten really into coloring and lately because I'm 634 00:30:58,589 --> 00:31:00,789 Speaker 2: doing it at the same time as as lunar, and 635 00:31:00,829 --> 00:31:02,109 Speaker 2: I'm like, this is quite. 636 00:31:01,909 --> 00:31:06,189 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. There's something in that we lost the art. 637 00:31:06,309 --> 00:31:08,589 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah yeah, And I'm doing like my cross hatching 638 00:31:08,589 --> 00:31:12,029 Speaker 2: and like my shading and then she comes up. 639 00:31:10,309 --> 00:31:14,189 Speaker 1: Oh my back off, kid, back off. 640 00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:18,269 Speaker 2: My recommendation is eat, sleep, repeat. Have either of you 641 00:31:18,349 --> 00:31:19,589 Speaker 2: listened to this podcast? 642 00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:21,229 Speaker 1: Great podcast, I love it. So. 643 00:31:21,229 --> 00:31:23,989 Speaker 2: I was talking before about Kelly McCarran and she is 644 00:31:24,069 --> 00:31:27,149 Speaker 2: on Your Beauty. She's been on a bunch of MUMMYA podcasts, 645 00:31:27,229 --> 00:31:30,189 Speaker 2: and she has been making this podcast with Key re Searls, 646 00:31:30,189 --> 00:31:31,909 Speaker 2: who also used to be on The Spill, used to 647 00:31:31,909 --> 00:31:35,309 Speaker 2: work at Mummy Out. And I have loved this podcast 648 00:31:35,389 --> 00:31:37,909 Speaker 2: since it first came out. And it's really hard to 649 00:31:37,949 --> 00:31:41,869 Speaker 2: explain why because I generally don't listen to a lot 650 00:31:41,869 --> 00:31:46,429 Speaker 2: of parenting podcasts, but this is it feels really warm, 651 00:31:46,509 --> 00:31:50,429 Speaker 2: it feels really friendly, there's no judgment. They are very 652 00:31:50,549 --> 00:31:53,309 Speaker 2: vulnerable about their own experiences, but then it's very relatable. 653 00:31:53,389 --> 00:31:57,149 Speaker 2: So for example, there have been episodes about is my 654 00:31:57,269 --> 00:32:00,069 Speaker 2: toddler a Bully? One of my favorites was be honest, 655 00:32:00,109 --> 00:32:02,349 Speaker 2: How bad was it going from one to two? Like 656 00:32:02,669 --> 00:32:06,309 Speaker 2: the Transition. Kee recently shared her second birth story. I 657 00:32:06,309 --> 00:32:07,949 Speaker 2: could listen to birth stories all day, every day. 658 00:32:08,109 --> 00:32:08,749 Speaker 1: I just love that. 659 00:32:09,429 --> 00:32:13,469 Speaker 2: It be really helpful. Sometimes they speak to experts. They 660 00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:16,029 Speaker 2: actually started off independently and they've just come on to 661 00:32:16,069 --> 00:32:18,549 Speaker 2: the Mummea network. I've been yellingked for years, get those 662 00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:20,629 Speaker 2: girls on our network. They are just so so good, 663 00:32:20,669 --> 00:32:24,109 Speaker 2: and so finally they are. They've got new art. It's 664 00:32:24,269 --> 00:32:26,669 Speaker 2: just brilliant. I love what they do. Eat, sleep, repeat. 665 00:32:26,709 --> 00:32:28,949 Speaker 2: There's a link now show notes. That is all we 666 00:32:29,029 --> 00:32:31,989 Speaker 2: have time for on Parenting Out Loud today. We will 667 00:32:32,029 --> 00:32:33,069 Speaker 2: see you next Saturday. 668 00:32:33,189 --> 00:32:39,109 Speaker 1: See you at the Trampoline Part Bye